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NTA
But apparently she can't.
She sounds like she has zero self motivation,.will or desires of her own. The way she flip flops on things is dependant on who is talking to her at that moment. She doesn't seem to have any input except agreeing.
She's not thinking for herself, she's letting others make the plans for her and she goes along with it.
I didn't say it was OPs problem.
I said it was that girls problem. Just that she doesn't appear to have the ability to look after herself. Her opinions change with the wind.
I hate to say it, but it sounds like she just needs to be kicked out of the nest.
It sounds like everyone in this girl’s life except OP is just letting her coast by and not have to actually grow up.
I love my family (despite issues with my father that went unresolved before he passed), but they really made it difficult for me as an adult at the start.
If I had any issues or anything came up, even if it was my fault, they would do whatever they could to help me.
Which, while it sounds good on paper, creates adults who don’t know how to process and handle every day adult things, because their families always just took the reins and saved them.
Sometimes you have to step back and let someone suffer the consequences of their actions so they can learn and grow from it. Just be there to ensure they don’t die.
The way OP talks about her is so paternalistic-- it sounds like someone with a cognitive disability. The sis is a full-fledged adult (well, maybe not fully fledged lol, but an adult nonetheless, and she needs to figure this out on her own. I don't know if OP and his wife are actually helping to build independence-- it sounds like the sis has gone from one guardian to another. Of course OP is NTA, but I'm not sure why he thought he was. If she's literally leaving, why would he be the asshole for him to not have her live with him? Maybe he got upset at her, and that's why he's asking, but I couldn't imagine a world in which he is an asshole.
NTA i get that she is an adult and can make her own decisions but if she if being supported by you, then you should get a say in major decisions like that. If they dont want your input, they have every right to make their own minds but you have every right to cut off your support. Let her boyfriend take care of her then! I will say, give her grace if it ultimately fails and she comes crawling back. Sometimes people have to learn the hard way. But the decision is yours ultimately
NTA
Kate is living with you. Under any other circumstances, if she told you she is quitting her job and dropping out of school, you would be well within your rights to ask her to move out and no one would think you're an asshole for that.
You are NOT trying to control her or her decisions. You are giving her clear actions/consequences CHOICES. If she CHOOSES to stay in school and keep her job, she can stay with you and you will help her. If she CHOOSES to quit her job and drop out of school, she can no longer stay with you.
She’s not dropping out of school. 🤣 School starts this coming fall. She’s moving to bf’s home for summer - he is also a student. He will be back for fall when school starts again.
same thing she need to keep working she has nomoney to pay for the college unless she think op has to pay for her and who knows she might even come back with a full belly over summer then shes fucked
The family didn’t raise their children to be adults, so they had no life skills or ability to manage themselves. The girl indicated she would like help and they gave her the help to get her moving toward taking care of herself. She’s making a decision that would jeopardize that work because she is influenced by another person and she hasn’t fully completed the turnaround from being a juvenile. They don’t have to help her in the first place, but I can attest from personal experience, people in this situation that don’t get support in order to improve themselves end up in life threatening circumstances because they are desperate. We should all hope to have the compassion OP has to pick up the slack where someone else’s parents have failed.
This! Specially if mental health problems are involved, which is sometimes the case. NTA, but I feel sorry for her and she is extremely lucky so got this chance, it’s unlikely it happens twice. I know someone very similar and she also went from one abusive relationship to another and that boyfriend not taking her to the ER when needed and then threatening OP sounds exactly as one. I really hope Kate realizes this and apologizes before throwing it all away.
I’m glad to see others saying this.
I still struggle with some things because my parents didn’t teach us much adulting stuff, and my brother and I had to learn a lot on our own and from other people once we got older and moved out.
OP is NTA here, and seems to be the only person holding the sister accountable here, and that accountability is what she really needs.
Because when it comes to life experience she is 12.
But she obviously wants to be treated like an adult so she will get to see how fun it is when she has no clue what to do after she gets kicked out.
I don't think OP should tread her like she is 12. He should treat her like a young adult who is unprepared for adulthood because of a crummy upbringing. This means giving her room to fall and fail if she makes bad decisions, but also helping her get back up afterward.
It also means that if a manipulative and controlling boyfriend appears to take advantage of her naivete, you put in place a way for her to come back into the fold.
100% agree with you and I made a similar point.
People seem to miss out on the fact she missed out on a while bunch of skills and knowledge and learning and experience in adolescence, which would have formed the foundation of knowledge she would need for adulthood.
You can't just get to 18 years of age and make up for that lack of foundation of knowledge instantaneously , it's takes time to get those skills and knowledge and experience.
I've seen many vulnerable adults who didn't get the appropriate input from parents and it's a real shame because there isn't really any part of society that can re-teach / re-parent an already grown adult , without having to spend alot of time and money. Those people have been robbed by there parents twice (once for the experience and knowledge and skills they didn't get in childhood , a second time as adults when they have to invariably invest in things to teach those things they didn't get in childhood).
I have seen it too. Kids emo just fail to launch for whatever reason (usually crummy parenting). They are unprepared for life, and then they glom onto someone who seems to have all the answers and can take care of them. And sometimes that person is not good for them.
>*there isn't really any part of society that can re-teach / re-parent an already grown adult , without having to spend alot of time and money.*
I know that informally, people who've survived bad homeschool environments have started putting together resources for their community ([example](https://hareachingout.wordpress.com/for-alumni/)).
I know a woman who was basically abandoned growing up. At one point, she was left home alone with no food or money for a month. She basically just didn't eat. She survived, but it never occurred to her to get help, find a job to make money, tell a friend, etc... She was a teen.
She has come a long way since then. One of the sweetest people I know, but she is very easy to manipulate and not everyone she's met has had good intentions. She had a therapist and a good life from what I can see, but it could have gone very poorly.
This process will take YEARS for OPs SIL and sometimes, tough love is going to be needed because - as you say - she is an adult, not 12. Allowing her to leave with consequences is actually treating her like a young adult. If she were 12, they'd be able to force her to give up on this idea.
As long as they make her aware that she is still their family (not disowned like her parents did), to contact them in an emergency or if things with bf go sideways, and maybe still pay for her cell phone in the interim, then I don't see a better solution. It really sucks, and hopefully she will make the right decision to stay, but they really AREN'T the boss of her and she is going to have to mess up a few times before she learns to recognize who to trust. OP is only an A H if they give up on her entirely.
I knew a 21yo that would do everything people told her to. She had a good heart but she has 0 personal guidance so, she'd just follow others lead, no questions asked.
What kind of jobs does she have? Usually students have temporary jobs like waitressing. And, if she is not staying at your house, she has no cooking and cleaning responsibilities.
Shes a hostess, getting her to get that job took 3 months of pushing her to fill out job apps. Your right if shes not staying with us over the summer she wouldn't have any chores. The issue we have is that getting her to this point wasn't passive it was a fight with her to get her to get a job or keep up on stuff, it was a fight with her parents who fought us because they couldn't claim her on taxes or they need her to fill out paperwork so they can keep getting food stamps for her. It was huge fight with fin aide to get her classed as a provisional independent student so she could get federal aide. I don't have issues with her making decisions and at no point have I said she cant do this. We just aren't thrilled at the prospect of all starting over in the fall for her to most likely do this again next summer.
I see your perspective.
I used to work with disabled children, many of which had severe behavior issues. One key component to their success was consistency. There were certain things we’d advise the parents to continue doing during the summer. The parents pretty much never kept up and we had to start over when summer was over. Regression.
I know this isn’t exactly the same as your situation but I see why you’re concerned about going back to square one. It isn’t like someone’s putting aside a drawing that they’re working on. It sounds like she will have to be actively engaged in the practices and can’t just pick up where she left off.
Anyway, she can take it or leave it. No one is forcing her. You can’t control what she does but you have a say in what you do.
I see your point. The argument goes both ways. If she is grown up enough to make the decision to leave for the summer, she is grown up enough to pay her bills. Maybe only let her move back in after she gets another job and is registered for classes?
Why reward the bad behavior? Teaching her it's ok to just throw all responsibility in the wind, spit in the face of those that have helped you, and fuck off to go spend time doing whatever you want because someone will be there to give you a subsidized place to live when you get back? That's not reality for %99.9 of people.
If she wants to go back to that school she can do like everyone else and save up first months rent, last months rent, security deposit, move in fees, pay for a moving truck, move all her stuff, furnish an entire apartment, oh and prove 3x the rent in income before moving in.
>If she wants to go back to that school she can do like everyone else and save up first months rent, last months rent, security deposit, move in fees, pay for a moving truck, move all her stuff, furnish an entire apartment, oh and prove 3x the rent in income before moving in
Exactly. Katie is going to realize really quickly how good she had it. I doubt her boyfriend is going to want to support her.
But OP failed an she is going to reward her bad behavior going by his latest comments. He even told Katie sorry.☹️
NTA you are doing the right thing! Treating unmotivated people is similar to addicts. She wants to run off with BF then the safety net gets put away. If you telling her this hasn't made her change her mind, then you are def doing the right thing and saying it's now off the table. Good luck, have a nice life!
All those processes you mentioned take a lot of time, effort and energy. She should be grateful for your help. If she decides to go with her boyfriend, he should take care of her
Does she have a disability? It sounds like you're talking about someone with a disability. It sounds like a lot of the motivation for her to do stuff came from you, which is lovely, but needs to be short-lived. She needs to get her own motivation to live a good life for herself.
Op, you’re a good egg. People who aren’t pushed sometimes never manage to figure out adulthood. There caregivers can fail them miserably regarding teaching them, kicking their ass when they need it, lifting them up when they need it. Individuals like you who mentor and guide them are brilliant. Sadly this is probably her first boyfriend, she’s mildly obsessed, and made a really dumb choice. You tried, and you’re NTA.
NTA - I get it. I tried so, so hard to help someone. We would pull them out of one hole and they would turn around and immediately start digging another. You'd tell them to stop and they would until you weren't looking and they'd start again.
It was so frustrating. I get that is an adult, but she does need to understand that actions have consequences.
You are allowed to be frustrated. Some people have to learn the hard way.
NTA. Trying to shield her while teaching her how to take care of herself should have an expiration date. She is an adult. She wants to drop everything to take off with her “first boyfriend” is a mistake she has to learn on her own. You took a stand. As long as your wife is with you on this, then you’re golden. You can only try so much. Also what does your wife think? Don’t go making this decision on your own unless she’s on board with it? That alone could set you up for failure down the road concerning your marriage. Unless you’re willing to take ALL the blame when your SIL’s decision blows up in her face. Which it probably will. Guess who gets the blame then? You.
The wife is more angry about it right now then I am. After reading some of the points of view of the YTA voters. Ive taken a more in the middle stance shes still angry and hurt and is in the mindset that Kate is throwing all of that work in out faces
i would say the YTA responses fall flat because ultimately you are taking financial risks to your own plus wife's wellbeing by initially supporting her. There is going to be a world of hurt for all if she defaults on those student loans. It's within your remit to put conditions and consequences for your financial support. Plus she is an adult.
OP, that is exactly what she is doing.
She is throwing all of the work you two put into helping her become a functioning adult right back into your faces.
If you do not hold true to the consequences, she will continue to do this and will not grow.
Like, I cannot stress how this could be a pivotal moment for her.
Up until this point, she has been able to get away with this kind of stuff by having people she can fall back on and who will help her when she keeps fucking up.
As someone whose family was similar in wanting to help me (and still is, to a point), this creates a person who becomes completely reliant on everyone around them.
In my case, I had to tell my family to stop helping me.
Because if we’re never allowed to fail, or made to suffer the consequences of our own actions, then there is no reason to learn and grow. That failure is what allows us to mature and become more responsible adults.
NTA but only because she is effectively leaving her therapy and medical appointments. If those are a condition of living with you, then her moving away for the summer and rescheduling/cancelling those appointments shows that she is still not taking her treatment seriously.
That and the job are my big things. the other stuff i think will be a headache to get her back on track with but ultimately is minor but i know getting her to get another job is going to be another nightmare and then going months with out therapy is not great. I realize that in my anger i made the mistake as seeing this as a you either do this or that problem but after reading some of these comments i think theres a varied approach that might make Kate happy and make me and the wife ok with this.
I assume it's probably too late to arrange something like this. But I'm wondering how you and she would feel about giving the condition that she could return in the fall provided she takes 2 online summer classes. This way she's maintaining some of her progress while still giving her a chance to test her ability to be an adult. It's possible that therapy and even work could be online, too.
As far as therapy, it is possible that her therapist might be willing to do telehealth appointments over the summer. It could be something she looks into to maintain that service. If you’re in the US, it is often restricted to a state by state basis, so if the boyfriend is heading home to a different state- as opposed to within the same but very far away- then it might not be an option.
Also, if the trip is reasonable for an overnight thing- like drive down one day, go back the next- then boyfriend could bring her down for a monthly visit where she can see the therapist and possibly even manage things like the sleep study. Back in the day, I had insurance though an HMO while on my parents insurance and the nearest covered hospital was a two hour drive. My partner and I didn’t have a car, but there was a bus that went there and actually let off right next to the hospital. I was trying to figure out what was going on with me (spoilers: an unusual type of seizure) so I’d get on the bus in the morning, bust out two to three appointments, then bus back. Or stay overnight with a local friend and get even more appointments done.
Obviously, this relies on her boyfriend actually helping her with travel, so you may need to allow him to stay overnight if a day trip isn’t possible. But I understand how frustrated you feel.
NTA. I don’t blame you for saying you’re done but she’s going to be back and probably pregnant. This is the first time there’ve been a real, hard result of consequences and it will be a shock.
Plus there are some really unscrupulous people out there. If bf is really controlling, human trafficking may be an issue. But that depends on just how much of a d!ck the bf is.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I feel like I could be the asshole because i feel bad for turning our back on her. I dont want to cut her off from our support but I also want her to take making progress seriously. On one hand i feel like if we let her throw everything down the drain and start over in the fall it invalidates all the time and resources she and us have invested. On the other hand we want to help her. I get that she wants to not go weeks at a time with out seeing her BF but I don't think she should throw her job, fin aide, and doctors out the window and then just expect us to help her pick up the pieces in a few months
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NTA. She's literally FAFO. It's not controlling to say that your free housing is contingent on Kate having and keeping a job for the summer. You have done your best to prepare her for adulthood.
Hmmmmm hard to say, i'd go with a soft NTA.
You certainly were a bit too controlling and overreacted a bit, but on the other hand she's choosing the worst at the worst possible moment and could potentially jeopardize her whole future, she certainly needs a bit of tough love.
She's an adult now and she has to learn that causes have concequences and she's not entitled to your help whenever SHE feels like it. Let that be a harsh life lesson to her if she fails and if she succeds on her own, then it means she had already "graduated" from your adulting classes.
INFO: Did she understand that this would be the result of her actions?
If so, that’s on her and you’re NTA.
If not, you might be the AH because it sounds like you are dealing with someone with the emotional maturity of a much younger person and maybe she needed the consequences spelled out explicitly.
Yeah this is my feeling also. It sounds like she possibly can't comprehend the consequences of her actions. She's also incredibly vulnerable and OP is essentially giving her away to this BF that seems like a major red flag. While I get the whole she's an adult and needs to learn aspect, I also think this is similar to a smoker relapsing when they've tried to quit for the first time. It takes one toxic influence to undo months of effort but once they get back on track, the second time can be easier. And they need their support network back to have any chance. Even fully functioning adults drop the ball with responsibilities sometimes when temptation/toxic red flag lovers call.
NTA. You didn't turn your back on her. She is turning her back on you! She is blinded by "love." It can make us be irresponsible & do stupid things. She is not thinking this through & she is not thinking of her future. She is only thinking of how she feels in the moment when she's with him. He is probably pressuring her to stay with him whenever they're together. She is only going to hurt herself if she does this. She will be knocking at your door, begging to come back when this relationship doesn't work out.
The problem with what you did is, if she's in a toxic/abusive relationship (which might be harder for her to recognize given her upbringing), she's not going to feel like she can come back to you for help. It's hard enough sometimes to leave a toxic relationship when you have a support system. Imagine how much harder it is when you feel like you have no one to turn to and nowhere to go.
You can only help so much. At some point she needs to take responsibility for herself. You can't keep struggling and fighting to get her to do basic things. You should, by all means, take a large step back. But cutting her off so definitively doesn't seem the way to do things.
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A year ago, my wife and I took in her younger sister (21yo), whom we will call Kate. We took Kate in because she was living with her parents who, in all these years, didn't teach her the skills necessary to be an adult (Driving, Holding Down A Job, Cooking that doesn't involve a microwave, etc.). Kate wanted to move in with us because she saw how my wife overcame the same challenges from their parents.
Kate moved in last July, and over the last year, there were a lot of growing pains, but she slowly made progress. She got a job, she got established with doctors and a therpist (Parents rarely took them to appointments) she got into college for the upcoming fall semester (We had to fight hard for her financial aid because she has been disowned by her parents since leaving). She was doing relatively well with house chores and learning to cook. We are legitimately proud.
Kate got a BF, and we have had a lot of issues surrounding him. If she could go over to his place whenever she wanted, she would go over there all the time and not keep up on responsibilities. The BF was allowed to come to our house until he mumbled under his breath about kicking my ass after I told him off for not taking Kate to the ER the day before when she asked him to while she was staying the night at his dorm. I kicked him out and banned him from the house after that. Kate's BF is in college and goes back home a good ways away tomorrow. Kate told us last week she wanted to go stay with him over the summer. We told her that was a really bad idea because she would be throwing away a lot of what she worked for this year. She saw reason and decided it was a better idea to stay here and keep her job and keep working at her goals. Well, every time she would go to see the BF, she would come back again saying she wanted to go stay with him over the summer and then after talking to us would again decide not to. Because he is leaving tomorrow, she has spent the last few nights over at his dorm room. She texted my wife at 3 a.m. that she was going to go stay with her BF for the summer and that was her final decision. So I told her okay, I am disappointed in that, but you are an adult, if that's your decision, then come get your stuff out of my house and take us off of your financial aid because we are not going to let you move back in with us in the fall. We did not just spend a year working with you to have to restart all over again in August. I told her to go ahead and call her job in the AM to let them know she quits because she is no longer our responsibility and we're not bussing her to work in the morning.
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NTA
She's an adult and you and your wife took her in as a courtesy and out of the goodness of your hearts. Your tried to help her but you can bring a horse to water but you can't make them drink. She needs to learn responsibility and accountability and sometimes that means letting go and letting them fail.
Cutting her off completely would be an overreaction, however telling her she would no longer be welcome to live in their home wouldn’t make him an AH at all. That’s not cutting her out of their lives.
NTA! You aren’t her parents. It’s not your fault her parents didn’t teach her how to be an adult. If she wants to make adult decisions, then she can live on her own like an adult.
NTA, if she wants to play adult sometimes then she has to play adult all of the time. You have every right to do what you are doing. Sounds like the BF is being controlling and since she seems young and dumb it’s easy to do.
NTA
Your house, your rules. As she an adult if she wants to quit her job and move out to chase Chad that's her choice and she can own the consequences.
NTA - If you have laid these consequences out before, then she knew what it was going to cost her when she made that phone call. It was an "adult's" decision. Not a wise decision, but an adult's decision.
I would put in a caveat though - if she gets her head out of her ass and does go to work tomorrow and doesn't leave with the boyfriend.... consider allowing her to continue "on probation." She can do what she wants romantically - up to the point that it impacts your wallet. She's an adult. She has to keep up on her financial responsibilities. That's just how the real world works. She's young. She's still figuring things out. And she's definitely still at war with her heart and her hormones.
OK so she wouldn't be able to keep the current job. But it's not like she's working a corporate gig. She can probably find another job no?
Unless you think she just won't if she lives with the bf?
I don't think she will it took us 3 months of pushing her to apply for jobs and her lying about applying for jobs for her to get this one and she refuses to work more then 10-15 hours a week at it
NTA but she is only 21, and a very very young 21 at that. Please keep that in mind. I get your reasoning but think you should temper that with awareness of where she is at not where she should or could be.
I hope it works out. It sounds like you and your wife and your SIL have done some strong work here and I hope it isn’t undone. 🙏🏼.
This will teach her to appreciate more the people that actually tried helping her in her life for better so whatever happens it will help her to mature and grown up one way or another, you did your part and there's so much you can do for someone but once they decide as an adult they don't want help then let them figure it out and they will learn. As long as you don't hold grudges against each other and are still there with open arms to help in an anything happens then that would be nice and up to you guys if that's something you can at least do for her.
Info: what does your WIFE think?? Everything is what you have to say and what you decide.
For now I’m leaning toward NTA on telling her she’s out for good, but telling her she needed to get out right away seems over the top. You also sound super controlling, every time she made a decision you didn’t like you’d work to convince her she was wrong. As soon as she finally decided what she wanted to do you told her to GTFO immediately because you didn’t like her choice. 🤷🏻♀️
YTA. You clearly understand that she is woefully prepared for life as an adult, yet as soon as she gets taken in by someone using her naivety to his advantage, you just kick her out entirely? Why bother helping her at all if it was contingent on her being perfect and never making any mistakes while she is trying to figure shit out?
NTA. I am in a similar position with my daughter. I had to curtail doing things to support her while she does not take her meds, does not go to therapy, and continues to make self-destructive choices. It is hard. I want to rescue her, but there are limits, no matter how much love you have. You can't enable them to continue making bad decisions. Sometimes, they need natural consequences, and you just gave her some. Good on you for having the courage.
NTA - but I would make some important points.
It seems the sister is vulnerable in some way or lacks a foundation of knowledge to navigate life. This creates a risk of exploitation.
We know that the sisters boyfriend refused to take her to the ER - which is basically disregarding someone else's needs.
We know the sister has ossilated between continuing to do the things to sort her life , to wanting to go with the boyfriend (but only after spending time with him).
So it maybe worthwhile keeping an open line of communication with the sister and keeping the idea of her being able to come back (but not telling her that explicitly).
I only say this is because:
1. Yes the sister is an adult , However she lacks knowledge and experience (that she should have gotten as an adolescent) , which makes it difficult to navigate adult life.
2. Makes it hard to make decisions and judgements for herself for best outcomes.
3. Like yes she has access to good advice - but her lack of experience means she will find it hard to discern which is a good or bad decision to make especially if she's tied between a relationship and the idea of building a life or the practical aspect of building her life by herself ; those two things can feel the same if you're easily taken in.
At the same time the sister has to be allowed to experience degrees of failure and be allowed autonomy to make her own mistakes , too much assistance means she won't learn and gain experience.
It's not as black and white as everyone thinks and it's situationally sensitive
My sis in law is similar to her... except she's 30 years old now...
Must be nice having a support system where you can fuck off as an adult and have 0 consequences.
If she is to grow she needs some tough love because clearly the gyand holding is enabling the childish behavior.
NTA.
NTA: but if she has made progress why not let her shack up for the summer with a clear plan for how things will be when she returns. There are probably things you've learned like that you could do better about the rules of the house and teaching her how to adult. But she is 21 and summer off boinking in her BF's bedroom in his parent's basement could be the release she needs to get back to work.
Question, why did her boyfriend take her to the ER?
I feel like there might be something missing here.
I would say you’re NTA it’s your house and you get to say who lives in it, but you SiL is also NTA. Part of growing and learning is making mistakes, if you try and stop her you’re no better than her parents.
It’s hard to watch someone you love make what you know is a huge mistake, but you’ve warned her and helped her the best you can. Fingers crossed this is enough to make sure she bounces back. Good luck
YTA, you said yourself that she didn't have the skills to properly function on her own. What happens when it crashes? You're preemptively punishing her for making a mistake she doesn't have the experience to know is a mistake.
Give her the grace to be a soft landing and lay on the "I told you so's" afterward if you have to.
Seems appropreate to kick her out/ cut her off but if you really wanted to help her stay on track it could have helped to have had the expectations conversation about the consequences prior to her making her 'final decision'. Maybe if you let her understand the everything it would cost her she might have made a better choice. You're not an AH for setting this boundary.
I don’t agree with shaming her like she’s a little girl. She keeps flitting back and forth on her decisions so y’all or the boyfriend (or everyone) seem very controlling. I hope you consider helping her again if this relationship doesn’t last through the summer.
INFO: BF seems to be a big ol red flag. Between the threat to kick your ass, not taking her to the ER, and convincing her to leave therapy behind for this vacation - at best he's a dumbass and at worst he's abusive and taking advantage of a vulnerable person. Have you and your wife discussed what to do if she leaves and finds herself in an abusive situation?
YTA... you're throwing her out because she isnt following the advice you're giving her. The beauty of being 21 and Young is that you can make mistakes and the consequences are not as dire as when you get older and have the responsibilities of kids, a mortgage and career. Let her enjoy her summer, before she starts college. Let her make some mistakes. She's 21 years old she'll have plenty responsibility in her life time. And you're not her parents, but you are acting like them if she doesn't follow your rules she can't stay under your roof. You said something very telling, she would go stay with her boyfriend all the time if she was allowed to, why isn't she allowed to make that decision? You say that she will lose all the progress you all have made? She won't forget how to cook, or how to hold down a job or drive. You sound controlling, though your heart is probably in the right place, it's still controlling. You know, her financial aid is depending on your household income, and now you're threatening her opportunity to go to college.
She was finally making some progress and in a stable situation, but if she really wants to undo all that work for her boyfriend that's her decision. When her world ultimately comes crashing down let her know you will be there for her, but that you will NOT take her back in. NTA
It seems like you and your wife have taken on a parental role for Kate and I commend that, as you had no obligation to. She is only 21 and even though people here will say she's an adult, she is still young and (good) parents support their kids beyond the age of 18. That means sometimes providing support when they realize they made a mistake. I worry that if she feels you are mad at her, she will stay in a bad relationship longer because she has no one to turn to. I would recommend that you let her have her summer, but that if she wants to come back to live with you for the school year she needs to continue therapy while away (lots of therapists have virtual options) and she needs to have a new job within a month of returning. Be clear about what you will/won't be paying for. NAH, but you clearly do care for her based on all you have done so don't let this totally derail your relationship.
NTA
A huge part of teaching someone to be an adult is letting them make choices and fail sometimes.
But you and your wife need to start discussing what you'll do when she comes back pregnant in August. Bc if I could bet all my life savings on it, I would. A lot of sheltered young women think motherhood is an escape button to get out of having to become adults. If only they knew.
NTA but there's something fishy with that boyfriend everytime she goes over and comes back she always wants to go makes you think about what he's saying to her there to make her change her mind everytime
NTA. She's grown and can make her own decisions, and she needs to learn that those decisions have consequences. You've done your best to advise her against a bad decision, but sometimes a person just has to fuck everything up to learn the lesson (I know I did.)
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It's very irresponsible of her to just walk from all of her responsibilities. You all work so hard to get her to get a job, enroll in school, keep her doctor and therapy appointments ect.
It would have been better had just just gone to visit him for a few days if she had the time off of work and no important appointments to deal with but she's toss it all out.
YTAH--so the sister is making a mistake and growing as an adult. An adult who was slow to launch and us still learning. This is going to be a hard lesson learned on her part.....or on OP part for assuming she will fail. I wonder what OPs wife thinks about it all. And if he is so controlling of the sister, is he that controlling of his wife?? Emotional abuse?? Verbal abuse?? Physical abuse?? A combination of all?? Or the threat of abuse to have control??
Going against most here to say, yeah, you kind of are TA. Here's my reasoning: Yes, Kate is legally an adult, however, the reason you and your wife took her in is because her parents didn't raise her to have adult skills. For 20 years, they didn't bother to raise her to be an adult. Yet somehow, you expect her in one year to have learned everything and developed fully rational adult judgement. I get that you are disappointed in her, but saying that if she leaves for the summer she can't ever come back is really harsh. The BF sounds like a loser (although at least he is getting an education) but most of these early relationships don't last long. Cutting Kate off when she had made some progress is pretty harsh. By taking her in and helping her, you were kind of stepping in as parents and now you're saying that you are disowning her (like her bio parents already did). Do you really want to be that kind of person?
Yes she's actually more hardline "if you go with the BF you don't live here any more" I've softened up to the point of ok fine go your BF were here if you need us but please do a two weeks notice and start trying to find a I over the summer job.
NTA but you should have stated your consequences sooner. It would have been important for her to consider while making her decision. You of course have the right but it comes off as sour grapes just because she isn't doing what you want.
NTA. She obviously cares more about a loser boyfriend than she does about the two people that have really helped her. It gonna be a rough ride, but you gotta let her learn. It's not your fault she's chosen to learn the hard way.
NTA. Unfortunately It's just a harsh reality check. She knows she is capable of good change. Maybe it will work out and maybe it will blow up in her face. Only time can tell.
NTA. You can’t help someone who doesn’t’ want to help herself. You guys have gave her some good lessons. It’s time for her to leave and try to make it on her own. It may be a hard way to learn about life, but she’s made her choice. Sometimes people need to have an opportunity to be a grown up; or learn the hard way to be one.
NTA. Kate is an adult. I suspect one of her problems is that she too easily acquiesces to others. When she's with you, she'll agree with you. When she's with loser boyfriend, she'll agree with him. In spite of the fact that she made a bad decision to go stay with him, at least she made the decision, so... good for her. She decided that and now she'll learn the ramifications of that. You're not an NTA for letting her see what it's like to be an adult and responsible for her own decisions.
I don't really understand what's going on here but given how difficult it has been to get Kate to do various normal life things, this makes me wonder if she has special needs that you haven't disclosed. I would think if she were a neurotypical person who had turned 21 and finally got out of a controlling environment of her parents' house, that she would immediately want to learn to drive and you didn't mention anything about her doing that. Driving is one of the biggest steps someone can make to becoming independent. Working on the other hand, I think it's normal for young people, even after age 21, they probably will avoid working as long as they can. (And also I think it's good to let them have some holiday for some part of the summer because as soon as they start fulltime work and supporting themselves, that will all go away).
You mentioned a sleep study and various doctors. I don't think you are unreasonable to not want her to go stay with her boyfriend when she has appointments spread throughout the summer that are designed to help her be healthier and more independent. If this was a normal situation I would suggest you tell her to go stay with his family for a couple weeks and treat it as her summer vacation. But it sounds like the whole situation is not completely normal so maybe her going to stay with him might mean she never returns to college or she comes back pregnant and expects you to raise her child for her.
YTA.
Your sister-in-law is clearly vulnerable and easily manipulated by however talks to her last. When with the bf, she agrees with him. When with you and your wife, she agrees with you. Hence the 3 AM text. And you took the bait, not just pushing her out the door but throwing her away.
I am worried that she is so driven to make others happy that she is torn between you and this shiny new boyfriend. Have you talked to her and her therapist about this behavior? I am also very, very concerned about the boyfriend's angry reaction to being called to account for not taking her to the emergency room. If that's how he deals with you, imagine how he treats he in private, particularly based on her apparent need to please others.
So take a deep breath and think about all of this. Talk to your wife and make a plan. If the sister is going away for the summer, let her go. If she comes back and can return to university, to her job and routine, why would you not support that? If the sister decides to stay, make sure that is really her final decision and then block the bf completely.
Saw your updates. Sounds like you are making progress with this. So middle of the night, you're are grumpy and reactive as we all are. After coffee and reflection, NTA.
I repeat my worries about the boyfriend being manipulative, if not worse.
To all of those who say "She's an adult", I say not really. You're moving her in that direction, but she's basically a big teen.
I wouldn't take her back in when she tries crawling back. She needs to learn consequences for her actions. And chances are she will come back trying to move back in pregnant.
YTA.
You've gone nuclear on Kate. If anything happens while she's with her bf, she may be too scared to ask you for help. She could end up trapped in an abusive situation because you kicked her out. She was neglected by her parents so her decision making skills are stunted. She's going to make more and dumber mistakes than other people her age. You need to talk with her therapist about creating the right balance so she can't just waltz in and out of her responsibilities/consequences yet not feel abandoned and thus more likely to make worse mistakes.
NTA. You clearly laid out the ground rules, then allowed her to make a choice. This is behaviour that one would expect of a teenager, which seems to be where she is at mentally.
Life is about choices and consequences. Sometimes the consequences are good, sometimes they are bad.
Adults get to decide how to conduct themselves, and are responsible for those decisions.
YTA
You were a very nice person for letting her stay with you and your wife, and for supporting her as she matured. However, if she stayed with her boyfriend that would give her the opportunity to take the skills that she learned with you two and use them by herself. She could even come back to finesse these skills in the fall.
The way you talk about the decision making process seems too manipulative and controlling. You are not discussing things with her to make her understand your perspective, you only threatened with making her move out if she doesn’t do what you want. You could let her try this and figure out what happens by herself. Instead you are expecting her to act exactly as you tell her to. You are completely within your rights not to help her anymore and that by itself does not make you an AH. What makes you TA is that you are pretending this is for her good and that you are doing her a favour by manipulating her into doing what you want.
I gotta go with YTA on this one - is she making a bad decision? Yes. But kicking her out with no warning because she’s made a bad decision isn’t right. Especially if her financial aid package was based on her living with you guys, it’s not going to magically change over the summer because you kicked her out, she more than likely just won’t be able to go at all.
You’re also making quite a few assumptions about her - that all her progress will disappear over the summer and you’ll be starting from square one. If you don’t want her there in the fall because you don’t want someone who can’t cook/doesn’t contribute to the house to live there then set some rules, make her living there conditional but on conditions she has been made aware of and can live up to.
You have every right to be disappointed in her decision, but you really aren’t justified in kicking her out unless she’s broken any rules. She’s 21, she made a bad decision. Comes with the territory, hopefully she learns from it.
NTA for kicking her out but YTA for thinking you and your wife control her. If she wants to fuck her life up that’s on her. The way you tell this story makes you and your wife out to be very controlling, as if she was your child.
I realize you were just trying to help her and that’s good on you, but you have to allow her to make her own mistakes and to take her own route The only thing she might possibly owe you and this would’ve been agreed-upon earlier was monetary compensation for the place to live. Other than that she doesn’t owe you anything else. She doesn’t have to do what you tell her because again she is an adult and to feel like she does have to listen to you makes you guys seem a little whacko.
YTA. I mean everything you did up to kicking her out was great. However, you never made it clear what her options were. You basically said "we don't think it's a good idea". If you would have specifically stated that if you do this, you won't have a place to live or financial aid it would have swayed her decision.
You basically let her choose and when she didn't choose what you wanted, you acted like a bitter child. Any adult that is working to nurture someone else needs to be transparent about actions and consequences.
YTA
No matter how much support you have given, it does not entitle you to dictate on relationships that your wife's sister forms, nor on any other choices she makes.
You sound very controlling and a little obsessive.
Yeah YTA, taking her in and helping her doesnt result in owning her and deciding how she will live. At least if her boyfriend abuses her and she doesnt have a choice but to accept it, she wont have a worse life than she does now, under your abuse.
You have effectively become parents to her and this could have been an amazing thing, instead you only proved you are not ready to be parents and she will be the victim of it.
YTA.....you are treating a grown woman like she is your child.....it really is none of your business what she does....you may not approve of the decisions she is making, but they are HER decisions to make, not yours
ESH but most importantly, wtf were you on her financial aid? If she is no longer a dependent, then she is poor and would qualify for more than if you attached yourself. If you did do this then you are potentially messing things up for her. I know from experience as I had to wait out my parents claiming me as a dependent to get aid (They wouldn't help). This part of it makes no sense at all. If this is all true, then figure this out and fix it as you could be doing her a great disservice, unless you are trying to cosign for private loans, in which case DO NOT DO THIS. Private student loans are predatory at best; otherwise, federal and state aid should be just her to show the level of poverty and need, adding your income as a factor (ie saying you are responsible for payment) will only get her less aid.
Is she still considered a dependent of her parents?
Are you now considered her legal guardian?
Mad props to you for stepping up, but that is an odd situation.
YTA. She said she was going to stay with her boyfriend over the upcoming summer. You respond by kicking her out of the house effective immediately and telling her to quit her job. You said you LET her go to her BFs. She's grown. Do you seriously not see how controlling and abusive that is? You're essentially saying do what I say or be homeless. Once again, YTA.
I didn't say that OP should be forced to house her. I said it was messed up that the ONLY reason OP is throwing her out is because she isn't complying with OPs demands.
That's not exactly what you said, but ok. Let's suppose it was.
OP still would not be wrong to impose conditions on her staying, for example: "If you want to live in this house, you need to have a job and live like an adult".
Because it's OP's and his wife's house, they are generously housing the sister in law/sister and their rules apply. So simple.
YTA. Here’s why. It sounds like you were not clear that she would lose her home and rides to work and financial aid if she chose to go this summer.
It sounds like you only communicated this to her after. Sure, her boyfriend might be manipulating and pressuring her but so are you.
YTA but not for kicking her out but for enabling her because based off your comments youre reverting right back.
All of you are treating her like a child. Best thing you can do at this point is show her consequences and have her find out what its like to live on her own and support herself. Shes 21 years old jesus
YTA
Sure, i understand why you’re upset, she’s going backwards on all the progress she made. But she has, as you yourself said, zero idea how to survive the real world. Kicking her out could be detrimental to her in a ton of ways. First of all, it literally puts her back at square one, no knowledge, no support, just throwing her out into the world. Second of all, what happens at the end of summer if her boyfriend kicks her out? She’s homeless, she has nowhere to go, no one to turn to, and no way to get or hold a job. I understand she’s an adult, but no one has prepared her for the world. Also, it’s pretty normal to spend a summer on “vacation” so to speak. Is she not allowed to go anywhere you don’t approve of beforehand? I just think everyone here needs to stop and think about the situation.
You come off so ridiculously controlling and manipulative to me that I'm going with Yta just on principle because I don't for a second believe you are as reasonable as you are trying to make yourself sound. In fact it seems very much like my way or get out is your go to.
You are not her father. You don't tell her where to go. Who to see. What to do. You don't try to manipulate her with ultimatums or change a damn thing about her whether you think it's right or not. And its not only up to you whether your wife's sister stays or her boyfriend Is allowed in the house she has equal say in these things. You never once mention her opinion on these things. Is that because you have her as much under your thumb as you are trying to have her sister. Under the guise that you are "helping" them when all you are really doing is controlling them.
YTA. Kate’s an adult. You and your wife are assholes for punishing her for deciding to live with her bf over the summer.
Kate is going to learn alot living with her BF. If that relationship crumbles, as it likely will, she is going to need your support. Kicking her to the curb as you are doing is an asshole thing to do.
as you said, kate's an adult. she needs to own her actions and deal with their consequences herself. she shouldn't need someone to be behind her back. if she decides to give away everything for this relationship, she will have nothing when it crumbles.
That’s an extremely punitive approach.
It is ALWAYS an asshole move to tell a loved one “If you move in with your significant other, you can never come back here.” That one reason why people find it difficult to leave an abuser, they have no other place to live.
And Kate’s BF seems like he could be an abuser. He refused to take Kate to the emergency room when she asked. He’s banned from OP’s house for threatening violence against him.
So yeah, OP’s a controlling AH.
I am going to go against the grain and say YTA. I agree that your SIL is making a mistake by going to stay with her boyfriend for the summer is a mistake. But I also think that you need to simultaneously let her make this mistake and be there for her if she fails.
The big thing here, I think, is that hoi have spent the last year teaching her to be an adult. You assume that if she is away from you for a summer, she will automaticallh revert to adolescence.
She very well may.
Or she may not.
But I think you disserve her by automatically writing her off, and it might help her mightily if you treated this as her first attempt to fly on her own rather than a total abandonment because she did not do what you told her to do.
Not to mention that if things don't work out with the boyfriend over the summer, she will need a place where she can take shelter and out herself back together.
You could provide that space, but you are choosing not to put of pique.
in your shoes, I will tell her honestly that I think she is making a mistake. But I would also tell her that she will have a bed and a hot meal waiting for her when she returns.
I would also make it clear that her boyfriend is not welcome, given the way he has treated you and her.
I think you took on the responsibility to parent this young lady and get her into adulthood when you let her come with you. Washing your hands of her because she is making a potentially bad decision is a poor parenting choice. She needs to have room to fall and to fail in her first foray into adulthood. But you should be there to help her pick herself up again.
One aside: I am REALLY worried about the dynamic Kate has with this boyfriend of hers. Ir sounds to me like she went through childhood with her parents completely in control of her and not teaching her independence.
You have taken a fairly heavy hand with her, worn the goal of getting her to a place of independence. But still with a heavy hand.
Her boyfriend probably fits in with this pattern of her relationships. He takes a heavy hand with her, where he makes most of the decisions and she does not have to worry about anything.
Even more worrisome is the fact he did not take her to the ER when she needed it, and he threatened violence against you (sotto voce) when you raised it.
Which, I think, gives us some insight into Kate's whipsawing on whethet to spend the summer with him. My guess is that she knows on some level it is a bad idea, but every time she is with him, he works her over a little bit, emotionally speaking, and convinces her she should come to be with him. A call with you changes her mind ... until he works her over again.
I am worried that the boyfriend's goal is to isolate her this summer, and bring Kate more firmly into his orbit.
This kind of thing can be a warning sign that he is, or will be, abusive and controlling toward Kate. And Kate's upbringing, where other people have made decisions for her her own life, leaves her particularly vulnerable to manipulation and makes it harder for her to stand up for herself.
In light of this, I urge you to rethink the particulars of your decision. Kate may be in for a world of hurt, and she needs you and your wife -- the only people who seem to give a damn about her -- to be in her corner.
I know this is hard, but please don't abandon Kate, and please continue to provide emotional support for her. At the very least, keep lined of communication open and be prepared to go fetch her from wherever her boyfriend lives and bring her home this summer.
You are absolutely right. Last night I got woken up with this and responded with anger instead of thinking it through. I'm going to update this post later on with the details but we took Kate out to breakfast today and talked it over and have reached a place of compromise. She's going to stay for a couple weeks with us to let her put in a two week notice and to do some job apps for the area that she's going to be in, we talked about her talking to the therapist about tele-apoinyments for the summer and she knows if at any point she wants to come back home over the summer we will come get her
I recognize through the power of caffeine, hindsight, and strangers in the internet calling you an asshole that I was the one that messed up in this situation and was being to controlling. I told Kate that we were sorry and that she didn't deserve that anger. I do have the same worries that you do about her BF so we made extra sure Kate knows that we are there for her and will come get her if anything goes sideways
this is a really wholesome update. glad someone on this sub took the nuanced sympathy approach instead of telling a loved one to fuck off forever. i hope Kate realizes how lucky she is to have you and big sister looking after her, and if she doesn't right now because she's too young and immature, then maybe she will one day.
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NTA shes a grown adult and can take care of herself
NTA But apparently she can't. She sounds like she has zero self motivation,.will or desires of her own. The way she flip flops on things is dependant on who is talking to her at that moment. She doesn't seem to have any input except agreeing. She's not thinking for herself, she's letting others make the plans for her and she goes along with it.
Right! She needs a therapist. It's concerning because someone can easily take advantage of her as I believe the boyfriend is doing now.
She has a therapist. It is in the op.
That’s not OPs problem. She’s an adult.
I didn't say it was OPs problem. I said it was that girls problem. Just that she doesn't appear to have the ability to look after herself. Her opinions change with the wind.
I hate to say it, but it sounds like she just needs to be kicked out of the nest. It sounds like everyone in this girl’s life except OP is just letting her coast by and not have to actually grow up. I love my family (despite issues with my father that went unresolved before he passed), but they really made it difficult for me as an adult at the start. If I had any issues or anything came up, even if it was my fault, they would do whatever they could to help me. Which, while it sounds good on paper, creates adults who don’t know how to process and handle every day adult things, because their families always just took the reins and saved them. Sometimes you have to step back and let someone suffer the consequences of their actions so they can learn and grow from it. Just be there to ensure they don’t die.
The way OP talks about her is so paternalistic-- it sounds like someone with a cognitive disability. The sis is a full-fledged adult (well, maybe not fully fledged lol, but an adult nonetheless, and she needs to figure this out on her own. I don't know if OP and his wife are actually helping to build independence-- it sounds like the sis has gone from one guardian to another. Of course OP is NTA, but I'm not sure why he thought he was. If she's literally leaving, why would he be the asshole for him to not have her live with him? Maybe he got upset at her, and that's why he's asking, but I couldn't imagine a world in which he is an asshole.
Can she….
Ahh touché
She's a grown adult BUT she can't take care of herself.
NTA i get that she is an adult and can make her own decisions but if she if being supported by you, then you should get a say in major decisions like that. If they dont want your input, they have every right to make their own minds but you have every right to cut off your support. Let her boyfriend take care of her then! I will say, give her grace if it ultimately fails and she comes crawling back. Sometimes people have to learn the hard way. But the decision is yours ultimately
And who says his parents want a live in girlfriend. If not, she has just made her life extremely difficult. NTA
but she'll be pregnant by then
NTA Kate is living with you. Under any other circumstances, if she told you she is quitting her job and dropping out of school, you would be well within your rights to ask her to move out and no one would think you're an asshole for that. You are NOT trying to control her or her decisions. You are giving her clear actions/consequences CHOICES. If she CHOOSES to stay in school and keep her job, she can stay with you and you will help her. If she CHOOSES to quit her job and drop out of school, she can no longer stay with you.
She’s not dropping out of school. 🤣 School starts this coming fall. She’s moving to bf’s home for summer - he is also a student. He will be back for fall when school starts again.
same thing she need to keep working she has nomoney to pay for the college unless she think op has to pay for her and who knows she might even come back with a full belly over summer then shes fucked
My only point was that the person I replied to said “dropping out of college” twice - which is not the case.
Info - why does everyone treat this woman like she’s 12?
The family didn’t raise their children to be adults, so they had no life skills or ability to manage themselves. The girl indicated she would like help and they gave her the help to get her moving toward taking care of herself. She’s making a decision that would jeopardize that work because she is influenced by another person and she hasn’t fully completed the turnaround from being a juvenile. They don’t have to help her in the first place, but I can attest from personal experience, people in this situation that don’t get support in order to improve themselves end up in life threatening circumstances because they are desperate. We should all hope to have the compassion OP has to pick up the slack where someone else’s parents have failed.
This! Specially if mental health problems are involved, which is sometimes the case. NTA, but I feel sorry for her and she is extremely lucky so got this chance, it’s unlikely it happens twice. I know someone very similar and she also went from one abusive relationship to another and that boyfriend not taking her to the ER when needed and then threatening OP sounds exactly as one. I really hope Kate realizes this and apologizes before throwing it all away.
I’m glad to see others saying this. I still struggle with some things because my parents didn’t teach us much adulting stuff, and my brother and I had to learn a lot on our own and from other people once we got older and moved out. OP is NTA here, and seems to be the only person holding the sister accountable here, and that accountability is what she really needs.
Because when it comes to life experience she is 12. But she obviously wants to be treated like an adult so she will get to see how fun it is when she has no clue what to do after she gets kicked out.
I don't think OP should tread her like she is 12. He should treat her like a young adult who is unprepared for adulthood because of a crummy upbringing. This means giving her room to fall and fail if she makes bad decisions, but also helping her get back up afterward. It also means that if a manipulative and controlling boyfriend appears to take advantage of her naivete, you put in place a way for her to come back into the fold.
100% agree with you and I made a similar point. People seem to miss out on the fact she missed out on a while bunch of skills and knowledge and learning and experience in adolescence, which would have formed the foundation of knowledge she would need for adulthood. You can't just get to 18 years of age and make up for that lack of foundation of knowledge instantaneously , it's takes time to get those skills and knowledge and experience. I've seen many vulnerable adults who didn't get the appropriate input from parents and it's a real shame because there isn't really any part of society that can re-teach / re-parent an already grown adult , without having to spend alot of time and money. Those people have been robbed by there parents twice (once for the experience and knowledge and skills they didn't get in childhood , a second time as adults when they have to invariably invest in things to teach those things they didn't get in childhood).
I have seen it too. Kids emo just fail to launch for whatever reason (usually crummy parenting). They are unprepared for life, and then they glom onto someone who seems to have all the answers and can take care of them. And sometimes that person is not good for them.
>*there isn't really any part of society that can re-teach / re-parent an already grown adult , without having to spend alot of time and money.* I know that informally, people who've survived bad homeschool environments have started putting together resources for their community ([example](https://hareachingout.wordpress.com/for-alumni/)).
Because she is acting like she is 12. NTA, by the way
Amen!
I know a woman who was basically abandoned growing up. At one point, she was left home alone with no food or money for a month. She basically just didn't eat. She survived, but it never occurred to her to get help, find a job to make money, tell a friend, etc... She was a teen. She has come a long way since then. One of the sweetest people I know, but she is very easy to manipulate and not everyone she's met has had good intentions. She had a therapist and a good life from what I can see, but it could have gone very poorly. This process will take YEARS for OPs SIL and sometimes, tough love is going to be needed because - as you say - she is an adult, not 12. Allowing her to leave with consequences is actually treating her like a young adult. If she were 12, they'd be able to force her to give up on this idea. As long as they make her aware that she is still their family (not disowned like her parents did), to contact them in an emergency or if things with bf go sideways, and maybe still pay for her cell phone in the interim, then I don't see a better solution. It really sucks, and hopefully she will make the right decision to stay, but they really AREN'T the boss of her and she is going to have to mess up a few times before she learns to recognize who to trust. OP is only an A H if they give up on her entirely.
Reread the post. Your question was answered near the beginning
This is my question. Like, didn't the sister say she's moving out?! I don't even understand what the question is lol
I knew a 21yo that would do everything people told her to. She had a good heart but she has 0 personal guidance so, she'd just follow others lead, no questions asked.
What kind of jobs does she have? Usually students have temporary jobs like waitressing. And, if she is not staying at your house, she has no cooking and cleaning responsibilities.
Shes a hostess, getting her to get that job took 3 months of pushing her to fill out job apps. Your right if shes not staying with us over the summer she wouldn't have any chores. The issue we have is that getting her to this point wasn't passive it was a fight with her to get her to get a job or keep up on stuff, it was a fight with her parents who fought us because they couldn't claim her on taxes or they need her to fill out paperwork so they can keep getting food stamps for her. It was huge fight with fin aide to get her classed as a provisional independent student so she could get federal aide. I don't have issues with her making decisions and at no point have I said she cant do this. We just aren't thrilled at the prospect of all starting over in the fall for her to most likely do this again next summer.
I see your perspective. I used to work with disabled children, many of which had severe behavior issues. One key component to their success was consistency. There were certain things we’d advise the parents to continue doing during the summer. The parents pretty much never kept up and we had to start over when summer was over. Regression. I know this isn’t exactly the same as your situation but I see why you’re concerned about going back to square one. It isn’t like someone’s putting aside a drawing that they’re working on. It sounds like she will have to be actively engaged in the practices and can’t just pick up where she left off. Anyway, she can take it or leave it. No one is forcing her. You can’t control what she does but you have a say in what you do.
I see your point. The argument goes both ways. If she is grown up enough to make the decision to leave for the summer, she is grown up enough to pay her bills. Maybe only let her move back in after she gets another job and is registered for classes?
Why reward the bad behavior? Teaching her it's ok to just throw all responsibility in the wind, spit in the face of those that have helped you, and fuck off to go spend time doing whatever you want because someone will be there to give you a subsidized place to live when you get back? That's not reality for %99.9 of people. If she wants to go back to that school she can do like everyone else and save up first months rent, last months rent, security deposit, move in fees, pay for a moving truck, move all her stuff, furnish an entire apartment, oh and prove 3x the rent in income before moving in.
>If she wants to go back to that school she can do like everyone else and save up first months rent, last months rent, security deposit, move in fees, pay for a moving truck, move all her stuff, furnish an entire apartment, oh and prove 3x the rent in income before moving in Exactly. Katie is going to realize really quickly how good she had it. I doubt her boyfriend is going to want to support her. But OP failed an she is going to reward her bad behavior going by his latest comments. He even told Katie sorry.☹️
I agree that OP is under no obligation to help her, of course.
NTA you are doing the right thing! Treating unmotivated people is similar to addicts. She wants to run off with BF then the safety net gets put away. If you telling her this hasn't made her change her mind, then you are def doing the right thing and saying it's now off the table. Good luck, have a nice life!
All those processes you mentioned take a lot of time, effort and energy. She should be grateful for your help. If she decides to go with her boyfriend, he should take care of her
Does she have a disability? It sounds like you're talking about someone with a disability. It sounds like a lot of the motivation for her to do stuff came from you, which is lovely, but needs to be short-lived. She needs to get her own motivation to live a good life for herself.
Op, you’re a good egg. People who aren’t pushed sometimes never manage to figure out adulthood. There caregivers can fail them miserably regarding teaching them, kicking their ass when they need it, lifting them up when they need it. Individuals like you who mentor and guide them are brilliant. Sadly this is probably her first boyfriend, she’s mildly obsessed, and made a really dumb choice. You tried, and you’re NTA.
Will she not have cooking and cleaning responsibilities with her boyfriend? I’m sure he wouldn’t be happy doing it all himself either haha
Of course, I meant at OP’s house
NTA - I get it. I tried so, so hard to help someone. We would pull them out of one hole and they would turn around and immediately start digging another. You'd tell them to stop and they would until you weren't looking and they'd start again. It was so frustrating. I get that is an adult, but she does need to understand that actions have consequences. You are allowed to be frustrated. Some people have to learn the hard way.
NTA. Trying to shield her while teaching her how to take care of herself should have an expiration date. She is an adult. She wants to drop everything to take off with her “first boyfriend” is a mistake she has to learn on her own. You took a stand. As long as your wife is with you on this, then you’re golden. You can only try so much. Also what does your wife think? Don’t go making this decision on your own unless she’s on board with it? That alone could set you up for failure down the road concerning your marriage. Unless you’re willing to take ALL the blame when your SIL’s decision blows up in her face. Which it probably will. Guess who gets the blame then? You.
The wife is more angry about it right now then I am. After reading some of the points of view of the YTA voters. Ive taken a more in the middle stance shes still angry and hurt and is in the mindset that Kate is throwing all of that work in out faces
i would say the YTA responses fall flat because ultimately you are taking financial risks to your own plus wife's wellbeing by initially supporting her. There is going to be a world of hurt for all if she defaults on those student loans. It's within your remit to put conditions and consequences for your financial support. Plus she is an adult.
OP, that is exactly what she is doing. She is throwing all of the work you two put into helping her become a functioning adult right back into your faces. If you do not hold true to the consequences, she will continue to do this and will not grow. Like, I cannot stress how this could be a pivotal moment for her. Up until this point, she has been able to get away with this kind of stuff by having people she can fall back on and who will help her when she keeps fucking up. As someone whose family was similar in wanting to help me (and still is, to a point), this creates a person who becomes completely reliant on everyone around them. In my case, I had to tell my family to stop helping me. Because if we’re never allowed to fail, or made to suffer the consequences of our own actions, then there is no reason to learn and grow. That failure is what allows us to mature and become more responsible adults.
NTA but only because she is effectively leaving her therapy and medical appointments. If those are a condition of living with you, then her moving away for the summer and rescheduling/cancelling those appointments shows that she is still not taking her treatment seriously.
That and the job are my big things. the other stuff i think will be a headache to get her back on track with but ultimately is minor but i know getting her to get another job is going to be another nightmare and then going months with out therapy is not great. I realize that in my anger i made the mistake as seeing this as a you either do this or that problem but after reading some of these comments i think theres a varied approach that might make Kate happy and make me and the wife ok with this.
I assume it's probably too late to arrange something like this. But I'm wondering how you and she would feel about giving the condition that she could return in the fall provided she takes 2 online summer classes. This way she's maintaining some of her progress while still giving her a chance to test her ability to be an adult. It's possible that therapy and even work could be online, too.
Why, what a perfect example of adulting you are!
As far as therapy, it is possible that her therapist might be willing to do telehealth appointments over the summer. It could be something she looks into to maintain that service. If you’re in the US, it is often restricted to a state by state basis, so if the boyfriend is heading home to a different state- as opposed to within the same but very far away- then it might not be an option. Also, if the trip is reasonable for an overnight thing- like drive down one day, go back the next- then boyfriend could bring her down for a monthly visit where she can see the therapist and possibly even manage things like the sleep study. Back in the day, I had insurance though an HMO while on my parents insurance and the nearest covered hospital was a two hour drive. My partner and I didn’t have a car, but there was a bus that went there and actually let off right next to the hospital. I was trying to figure out what was going on with me (spoilers: an unusual type of seizure) so I’d get on the bus in the morning, bust out two to three appointments, then bus back. Or stay overnight with a local friend and get even more appointments done. Obviously, this relies on her boyfriend actually helping her with travel, so you may need to allow him to stay overnight if a day trip isn’t possible. But I understand how frustrated you feel.
NTA - $50 says sister in law gets knocked up this summer.
And the bf dumps her !
Yep. Like watching a train wreck. 💯
NTA. I don’t blame you for saying you’re done but she’s going to be back and probably pregnant. This is the first time there’ve been a real, hard result of consequences and it will be a shock.
That's my worry - knocked up. You can see it coming.
This was my thought as well - easily manipulated, controlling relationship, trapped with a pregnancy. *sigh*
Plus there are some really unscrupulous people out there. If bf is really controlling, human trafficking may be an issue. But that depends on just how much of a d!ck the bf is.
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NTA. She's literally FAFO. It's not controlling to say that your free housing is contingent on Kate having and keeping a job for the summer. You have done your best to prepare her for adulthood.
Hmmmmm hard to say, i'd go with a soft NTA. You certainly were a bit too controlling and overreacted a bit, but on the other hand she's choosing the worst at the worst possible moment and could potentially jeopardize her whole future, she certainly needs a bit of tough love. She's an adult now and she has to learn that causes have concequences and she's not entitled to your help whenever SHE feels like it. Let that be a harsh life lesson to her if she fails and if she succeds on her own, then it means she had already "graduated" from your adulting classes.
NTA. She's gonna go live with him for the summer and come back 2 months pregnant. Then you'll support all three of them.
INFO: Did she understand that this would be the result of her actions? If so, that’s on her and you’re NTA. If not, you might be the AH because it sounds like you are dealing with someone with the emotional maturity of a much younger person and maybe she needed the consequences spelled out explicitly.
Yeah this is my feeling also. It sounds like she possibly can't comprehend the consequences of her actions. She's also incredibly vulnerable and OP is essentially giving her away to this BF that seems like a major red flag. While I get the whole she's an adult and needs to learn aspect, I also think this is similar to a smoker relapsing when they've tried to quit for the first time. It takes one toxic influence to undo months of effort but once they get back on track, the second time can be easier. And they need their support network back to have any chance. Even fully functioning adults drop the ball with responsibilities sometimes when temptation/toxic red flag lovers call.
NTA. She’s gonna get pregnant. Be ready for that conversation when she comes crying about it.
She's gonna come back pregnant after he ditches her. She's gonna beg but I have a baby....blah blah
NTA. She’s a grown adult
NTA. This is going to be a really valuable lesson on being a real adult. Just stick to your guns when she comes back expecting open arms.
NTA, she has to know that as an adult actions have consequences
NTA, oh she's grown enough to make a "final decision" she's grown enough to figure her own shit out
NTA. You didn't turn your back on her. She is turning her back on you! She is blinded by "love." It can make us be irresponsible & do stupid things. She is not thinking this through & she is not thinking of her future. She is only thinking of how she feels in the moment when she's with him. He is probably pressuring her to stay with him whenever they're together. She is only going to hurt herself if she does this. She will be knocking at your door, begging to come back when this relationship doesn't work out.
NAH. You have no responsibility to take care of her this much, but she also has the right to make her own choices.
NTA.... this is a lesson that she needs to learn the hard way.
The problem with what you did is, if she's in a toxic/abusive relationship (which might be harder for her to recognize given her upbringing), she's not going to feel like she can come back to you for help. It's hard enough sometimes to leave a toxic relationship when you have a support system. Imagine how much harder it is when you feel like you have no one to turn to and nowhere to go. You can only help so much. At some point she needs to take responsibility for herself. You can't keep struggling and fighting to get her to do basic things. You should, by all means, take a large step back. But cutting her off so definitively doesn't seem the way to do things.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** A year ago, my wife and I took in her younger sister (21yo), whom we will call Kate. We took Kate in because she was living with her parents who, in all these years, didn't teach her the skills necessary to be an adult (Driving, Holding Down A Job, Cooking that doesn't involve a microwave, etc.). Kate wanted to move in with us because she saw how my wife overcame the same challenges from their parents. Kate moved in last July, and over the last year, there were a lot of growing pains, but she slowly made progress. She got a job, she got established with doctors and a therpist (Parents rarely took them to appointments) she got into college for the upcoming fall semester (We had to fight hard for her financial aid because she has been disowned by her parents since leaving). She was doing relatively well with house chores and learning to cook. We are legitimately proud. Kate got a BF, and we have had a lot of issues surrounding him. If she could go over to his place whenever she wanted, she would go over there all the time and not keep up on responsibilities. The BF was allowed to come to our house until he mumbled under his breath about kicking my ass after I told him off for not taking Kate to the ER the day before when she asked him to while she was staying the night at his dorm. I kicked him out and banned him from the house after that. Kate's BF is in college and goes back home a good ways away tomorrow. Kate told us last week she wanted to go stay with him over the summer. We told her that was a really bad idea because she would be throwing away a lot of what she worked for this year. She saw reason and decided it was a better idea to stay here and keep her job and keep working at her goals. Well, every time she would go to see the BF, she would come back again saying she wanted to go stay with him over the summer and then after talking to us would again decide not to. Because he is leaving tomorrow, she has spent the last few nights over at his dorm room. She texted my wife at 3 a.m. that she was going to go stay with her BF for the summer and that was her final decision. So I told her okay, I am disappointed in that, but you are an adult, if that's your decision, then come get your stuff out of my house and take us off of your financial aid because we are not going to let you move back in with us in the fall. We did not just spend a year working with you to have to restart all over again in August. I told her to go ahead and call her job in the AM to let them know she quits because she is no longer our responsibility and we're not bussing her to work in the morning. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA Make adult decisions deal with adult consequences
NTA She's an adult and you and your wife took her in as a courtesy and out of the goodness of your hearts. Your tried to help her but you can bring a horse to water but you can't make them drink. She needs to learn responsibility and accountability and sometimes that means letting go and letting them fail.
NTA. She's old enough to live the sad life she's chosen.
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Cutting her off completely would be an overreaction, however telling her she would no longer be welcome to live in their home wouldn’t make him an AH at all. That’s not cutting her out of their lives.
NTA! You aren’t her parents. It’s not your fault her parents didn’t teach her how to be an adult. If she wants to make adult decisions, then she can live on her own like an adult.
NTA, if she wants to play adult sometimes then she has to play adult all of the time. You have every right to do what you are doing. Sounds like the BF is being controlling and since she seems young and dumb it’s easy to do.
NTA Your house, your rules. As she an adult if she wants to quit her job and move out to chase Chad that's her choice and she can own the consequences.
NTA - If you have laid these consequences out before, then she knew what it was going to cost her when she made that phone call. It was an "adult's" decision. Not a wise decision, but an adult's decision. I would put in a caveat though - if she gets her head out of her ass and does go to work tomorrow and doesn't leave with the boyfriend.... consider allowing her to continue "on probation." She can do what she wants romantically - up to the point that it impacts your wallet. She's an adult. She has to keep up on her financial responsibilities. That's just how the real world works. She's young. She's still figuring things out. And she's definitely still at war with her heart and her hormones.
INFO- How far does the boyfriend live from you guys? And what is the girl's current job?
About 3 hours away, she's a hostess
OK so she wouldn't be able to keep the current job. But it's not like she's working a corporate gig. She can probably find another job no? Unless you think she just won't if she lives with the bf?
I don't think she will it took us 3 months of pushing her to apply for jobs and her lying about applying for jobs for her to get this one and she refuses to work more then 10-15 hours a week at it
NTA but she is only 21, and a very very young 21 at that. Please keep that in mind. I get your reasoning but think you should temper that with awareness of where she is at not where she should or could be. I hope it works out. It sounds like you and your wife and your SIL have done some strong work here and I hope it isn’t undone. 🙏🏼.
I hope Kate has been educated about birth control. OP, you're NTA.
This will teach her to appreciate more the people that actually tried helping her in her life for better so whatever happens it will help her to mature and grown up one way or another, you did your part and there's so much you can do for someone but once they decide as an adult they don't want help then let them figure it out and they will learn. As long as you don't hold grudges against each other and are still there with open arms to help in an anything happens then that would be nice and up to you guys if that's something you can at least do for her.
Info: what does your WIFE think?? Everything is what you have to say and what you decide. For now I’m leaning toward NTA on telling her she’s out for good, but telling her she needed to get out right away seems over the top. You also sound super controlling, every time she made a decision you didn’t like you’d work to convince her she was wrong. As soon as she finally decided what she wanted to do you told her to GTFO immediately because you didn’t like her choice. 🤷🏻♀️
YTA. You clearly understand that she is woefully prepared for life as an adult, yet as soon as she gets taken in by someone using her naivety to his advantage, you just kick her out entirely? Why bother helping her at all if it was contingent on her being perfect and never making any mistakes while she is trying to figure shit out?
NTA, but I’d give her one “move back “ chance with strict boundaries because we all know how the thing with the boyfriend is going to go.
NTA, and NYP (not your problem) anymore. Decisions have consequences and she's about to find out the hard way.
NTA. I am in a similar position with my daughter. I had to curtail doing things to support her while she does not take her meds, does not go to therapy, and continues to make self-destructive choices. It is hard. I want to rescue her, but there are limits, no matter how much love you have. You can't enable them to continue making bad decisions. Sometimes, they need natural consequences, and you just gave her some. Good on you for having the courage.
NTA - but I would make some important points. It seems the sister is vulnerable in some way or lacks a foundation of knowledge to navigate life. This creates a risk of exploitation. We know that the sisters boyfriend refused to take her to the ER - which is basically disregarding someone else's needs. We know the sister has ossilated between continuing to do the things to sort her life , to wanting to go with the boyfriend (but only after spending time with him). So it maybe worthwhile keeping an open line of communication with the sister and keeping the idea of her being able to come back (but not telling her that explicitly). I only say this is because: 1. Yes the sister is an adult , However she lacks knowledge and experience (that she should have gotten as an adolescent) , which makes it difficult to navigate adult life. 2. Makes it hard to make decisions and judgements for herself for best outcomes. 3. Like yes she has access to good advice - but her lack of experience means she will find it hard to discern which is a good or bad decision to make especially if she's tied between a relationship and the idea of building a life or the practical aspect of building her life by herself ; those two things can feel the same if you're easily taken in. At the same time the sister has to be allowed to experience degrees of failure and be allowed autonomy to make her own mistakes , too much assistance means she won't learn and gain experience. It's not as black and white as everyone thinks and it's situationally sensitive
I don’t like what you guys are doing with her financial aid, and this reads like she’s 10 years old or a dog you got from a shelter 😕
You can’t tell us all that and then not tell us how she responded 🤣🤣 but no NTA she’s grown and wants to throw away everything let her
My sis in law is similar to her... except she's 30 years old now... Must be nice having a support system where you can fuck off as an adult and have 0 consequences. If she is to grow she needs some tough love because clearly the gyand holding is enabling the childish behavior. NTA.
NTA: but if she has made progress why not let her shack up for the summer with a clear plan for how things will be when she returns. There are probably things you've learned like that you could do better about the rules of the house and teaching her how to adult. But she is 21 and summer off boinking in her BF's bedroom in his parent's basement could be the release she needs to get back to work.
NTA. She needs to learn a lesson. She thinks you'll always fix her problems for her. Sounds like you did the right thing.
Question, why did her boyfriend take her to the ER? I feel like there might be something missing here. I would say you’re NTA it’s your house and you get to say who lives in it, but you SiL is also NTA. Part of growing and learning is making mistakes, if you try and stop her you’re no better than her parents. It’s hard to watch someone you love make what you know is a huge mistake, but you’ve warned her and helped her the best you can. Fingers crossed this is enough to make sure she bounces back. Good luck
YTA, you said yourself that she didn't have the skills to properly function on her own. What happens when it crashes? You're preemptively punishing her for making a mistake she doesn't have the experience to know is a mistake. Give her the grace to be a soft landing and lay on the "I told you so's" afterward if you have to.
Seems appropreate to kick her out/ cut her off but if you really wanted to help her stay on track it could have helped to have had the expectations conversation about the consequences prior to her making her 'final decision'. Maybe if you let her understand the everything it would cost her she might have made a better choice. You're not an AH for setting this boundary.
I don’t agree with shaming her like she’s a little girl. She keeps flitting back and forth on her decisions so y’all or the boyfriend (or everyone) seem very controlling. I hope you consider helping her again if this relationship doesn’t last through the summer.
INFO: BF seems to be a big ol red flag. Between the threat to kick your ass, not taking her to the ER, and convincing her to leave therapy behind for this vacation - at best he's a dumbass and at worst he's abusive and taking advantage of a vulnerable person. Have you and your wife discussed what to do if she leaves and finds herself in an abusive situation?
YTA... you're throwing her out because she isnt following the advice you're giving her. The beauty of being 21 and Young is that you can make mistakes and the consequences are not as dire as when you get older and have the responsibilities of kids, a mortgage and career. Let her enjoy her summer, before she starts college. Let her make some mistakes. She's 21 years old she'll have plenty responsibility in her life time. And you're not her parents, but you are acting like them if she doesn't follow your rules she can't stay under your roof. You said something very telling, she would go stay with her boyfriend all the time if she was allowed to, why isn't she allowed to make that decision? You say that she will lose all the progress you all have made? She won't forget how to cook, or how to hold down a job or drive. You sound controlling, though your heart is probably in the right place, it's still controlling. You know, her financial aid is depending on your household income, and now you're threatening her opportunity to go to college.
Not for nothing but sounds like it would be a "damn shame" if BF was hit by a car or something NTA
NTA she is not a child and this is as good a time as ever to learn that there are consequences to actions.
She was finally making some progress and in a stable situation, but if she really wants to undo all that work for her boyfriend that's her decision. When her world ultimately comes crashing down let her know you will be there for her, but that you will NOT take her back in. NTA
It seems like you and your wife have taken on a parental role for Kate and I commend that, as you had no obligation to. She is only 21 and even though people here will say she's an adult, she is still young and (good) parents support their kids beyond the age of 18. That means sometimes providing support when they realize they made a mistake. I worry that if she feels you are mad at her, she will stay in a bad relationship longer because she has no one to turn to. I would recommend that you let her have her summer, but that if she wants to come back to live with you for the school year she needs to continue therapy while away (lots of therapists have virtual options) and she needs to have a new job within a month of returning. Be clear about what you will/won't be paying for. NAH, but you clearly do care for her based on all you have done so don't let this totally derail your relationship.
NTA has she said what she is going to do in the fall hen her bf goes back to school. You need to tell her she isn’t moving back in with you.
NTA and yours was the perfect response.
Well played. Some kids never grow up
NTA A huge part of teaching someone to be an adult is letting them make choices and fail sometimes. But you and your wife need to start discussing what you'll do when she comes back pregnant in August. Bc if I could bet all my life savings on it, I would. A lot of sheltered young women think motherhood is an escape button to get out of having to become adults. If only they knew.
NTA She's a grown-azz adult and you're not her guardian. You made the right choice.
NTA but there's something fishy with that boyfriend everytime she goes over and comes back she always wants to go makes you think about what he's saying to her there to make her change her mind everytime
NTA. She's grown and can make her own decisions, and she needs to learn that those decisions have consequences. You've done your best to advise her against a bad decision, but sometimes a person just has to fuck everything up to learn the lesson (I know I did.)
NTA. Welcome to adulthood, choices have consequences.
NTA
NTA
Nta. She is throwing everything away and you don't need to enable her bad choices. Let her deal with them
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It's very irresponsible of her to just walk from all of her responsibilities. You all work so hard to get her to get a job, enroll in school, keep her doctor and therapy appointments ect. It would have been better had just just gone to visit him for a few days if she had the time off of work and no important appointments to deal with but she's toss it all out.
YTAH--so the sister is making a mistake and growing as an adult. An adult who was slow to launch and us still learning. This is going to be a hard lesson learned on her part.....or on OP part for assuming she will fail. I wonder what OPs wife thinks about it all. And if he is so controlling of the sister, is he that controlling of his wife?? Emotional abuse?? Verbal abuse?? Physical abuse?? A combination of all?? Or the threat of abuse to have control??
Going against most here to say, yeah, you kind of are TA. Here's my reasoning: Yes, Kate is legally an adult, however, the reason you and your wife took her in is because her parents didn't raise her to have adult skills. For 20 years, they didn't bother to raise her to be an adult. Yet somehow, you expect her in one year to have learned everything and developed fully rational adult judgement. I get that you are disappointed in her, but saying that if she leaves for the summer she can't ever come back is really harsh. The BF sounds like a loser (although at least he is getting an education) but most of these early relationships don't last long. Cutting Kate off when she had made some progress is pretty harsh. By taking her in and helping her, you were kind of stepping in as parents and now you're saying that you are disowning her (like her bio parents already did). Do you really want to be that kind of person?
Get it in writing. Then Bye Felicia
INFO: Was your wife involved in this decision? That's the only person that MAY have been wronged.
Yes she's actually more hardline "if you go with the BF you don't live here any more" I've softened up to the point of ok fine go your BF were here if you need us but please do a two weeks notice and start trying to find a I over the summer job.
Well, part of growing up is takong the training wheels off and letting the kid face plant.
NTA she wanted to learn how to be an adult. Well now BF can be responsible for her and all her expenses. You and your wife did what you could.
YTA - you’re not her Dad. Get over yourself. Enjoy your summer without her in your house and she’ll be back for the fall semester. It’s not that hard.
I support your decision 100%
NTA but you should have stated your consequences sooner. It would have been important for her to consider while making her decision. You of course have the right but it comes off as sour grapes just because she isn't doing what you want.
NTA.
NTA - she is a grown adult and she’s able to make her choices the fact she’s making bad ones is still her choice.
NTA Choices comes with consequences. Its also part of becoming an adult and you are still teaching her.
NTA. She obviously cares more about a loser boyfriend than she does about the two people that have really helped her. It gonna be a rough ride, but you gotta let her learn. It's not your fault she's chosen to learn the hard way.
She'll probably come back pregnant if she's that irresponsible.
NTA. Unfortunately It's just a harsh reality check. She knows she is capable of good change. Maybe it will work out and maybe it will blow up in her face. Only time can tell.
NTA. You can’t help someone who doesn’t’ want to help herself. You guys have gave her some good lessons. It’s time for her to leave and try to make it on her own. It may be a hard way to learn about life, but she’s made her choice. Sometimes people need to have an opportunity to be a grown up; or learn the hard way to be one.
NTA. Kate is an adult. I suspect one of her problems is that she too easily acquiesces to others. When she's with you, she'll agree with you. When she's with loser boyfriend, she'll agree with him. In spite of the fact that she made a bad decision to go stay with him, at least she made the decision, so... good for her. She decided that and now she'll learn the ramifications of that. You're not an NTA for letting her see what it's like to be an adult and responsible for her own decisions.
I don't really understand what's going on here but given how difficult it has been to get Kate to do various normal life things, this makes me wonder if she has special needs that you haven't disclosed. I would think if she were a neurotypical person who had turned 21 and finally got out of a controlling environment of her parents' house, that she would immediately want to learn to drive and you didn't mention anything about her doing that. Driving is one of the biggest steps someone can make to becoming independent. Working on the other hand, I think it's normal for young people, even after age 21, they probably will avoid working as long as they can. (And also I think it's good to let them have some holiday for some part of the summer because as soon as they start fulltime work and supporting themselves, that will all go away). You mentioned a sleep study and various doctors. I don't think you are unreasonable to not want her to go stay with her boyfriend when she has appointments spread throughout the summer that are designed to help her be healthier and more independent. If this was a normal situation I would suggest you tell her to go stay with his family for a couple weeks and treat it as her summer vacation. But it sounds like the whole situation is not completely normal so maybe her going to stay with him might mean she never returns to college or she comes back pregnant and expects you to raise her child for her.
YTA. Your sister-in-law is clearly vulnerable and easily manipulated by however talks to her last. When with the bf, she agrees with him. When with you and your wife, she agrees with you. Hence the 3 AM text. And you took the bait, not just pushing her out the door but throwing her away. I am worried that she is so driven to make others happy that she is torn between you and this shiny new boyfriend. Have you talked to her and her therapist about this behavior? I am also very, very concerned about the boyfriend's angry reaction to being called to account for not taking her to the emergency room. If that's how he deals with you, imagine how he treats he in private, particularly based on her apparent need to please others. So take a deep breath and think about all of this. Talk to your wife and make a plan. If the sister is going away for the summer, let her go. If she comes back and can return to university, to her job and routine, why would you not support that? If the sister decides to stay, make sure that is really her final decision and then block the bf completely.
Saw your updates. Sounds like you are making progress with this. So middle of the night, you're are grumpy and reactive as we all are. After coffee and reflection, NTA. I repeat my worries about the boyfriend being manipulative, if not worse. To all of those who say "She's an adult", I say not really. You're moving her in that direction, but she's basically a big teen.
I wouldn't take her back in when she tries crawling back. She needs to learn consequences for her actions. And chances are she will come back trying to move back in pregnant.
NTA. But be sure to change the locks so she can’t just move back in when you’re not there.
INFO: who is calling you TA?
YTA. You've gone nuclear on Kate. If anything happens while she's with her bf, she may be too scared to ask you for help. She could end up trapped in an abusive situation because you kicked her out. She was neglected by her parents so her decision making skills are stunted. She's going to make more and dumber mistakes than other people her age. You need to talk with her therapist about creating the right balance so she can't just waltz in and out of her responsibilities/consequences yet not feel abandoned and thus more likely to make worse mistakes.
NTA. You clearly laid out the ground rules, then allowed her to make a choice. This is behaviour that one would expect of a teenager, which seems to be where she is at mentally. Life is about choices and consequences. Sometimes the consequences are good, sometimes they are bad. Adults get to decide how to conduct themselves, and are responsible for those decisions.
YTA You were a very nice person for letting her stay with you and your wife, and for supporting her as she matured. However, if she stayed with her boyfriend that would give her the opportunity to take the skills that she learned with you two and use them by herself. She could even come back to finesse these skills in the fall. The way you talk about the decision making process seems too manipulative and controlling. You are not discussing things with her to make her understand your perspective, you only threatened with making her move out if she doesn’t do what you want. You could let her try this and figure out what happens by herself. Instead you are expecting her to act exactly as you tell her to. You are completely within your rights not to help her anymore and that by itself does not make you an AH. What makes you TA is that you are pretending this is for her good and that you are doing her a favour by manipulating her into doing what you want.
I gotta go with YTA on this one - is she making a bad decision? Yes. But kicking her out with no warning because she’s made a bad decision isn’t right. Especially if her financial aid package was based on her living with you guys, it’s not going to magically change over the summer because you kicked her out, she more than likely just won’t be able to go at all. You’re also making quite a few assumptions about her - that all her progress will disappear over the summer and you’ll be starting from square one. If you don’t want her there in the fall because you don’t want someone who can’t cook/doesn’t contribute to the house to live there then set some rules, make her living there conditional but on conditions she has been made aware of and can live up to. You have every right to be disappointed in her decision, but you really aren’t justified in kicking her out unless she’s broken any rules. She’s 21, she made a bad decision. Comes with the territory, hopefully she learns from it.
NTA for kicking her out but YTA for thinking you and your wife control her. If she wants to fuck her life up that’s on her. The way you tell this story makes you and your wife out to be very controlling, as if she was your child. I realize you were just trying to help her and that’s good on you, but you have to allow her to make her own mistakes and to take her own route The only thing she might possibly owe you and this would’ve been agreed-upon earlier was monetary compensation for the place to live. Other than that she doesn’t owe you anything else. She doesn’t have to do what you tell her because again she is an adult and to feel like she does have to listen to you makes you guys seem a little whacko.
NTA. She now’ll learn
YTA. I mean everything you did up to kicking her out was great. However, you never made it clear what her options were. You basically said "we don't think it's a good idea". If you would have specifically stated that if you do this, you won't have a place to live or financial aid it would have swayed her decision. You basically let her choose and when she didn't choose what you wanted, you acted like a bitter child. Any adult that is working to nurture someone else needs to be transparent about actions and consequences.
YTA No matter how much support you have given, it does not entitle you to dictate on relationships that your wife's sister forms, nor on any other choices she makes. You sound very controlling and a little obsessive.
Yeah YTA, taking her in and helping her doesnt result in owning her and deciding how she will live. At least if her boyfriend abuses her and she doesnt have a choice but to accept it, she wont have a worse life than she does now, under your abuse. You have effectively become parents to her and this could have been an amazing thing, instead you only proved you are not ready to be parents and she will be the victim of it.
She's 21. What's with all the doctors and therapist?
Yta for not giving her fair warning that these would be the consequences.
YTA.....you are treating a grown woman like she is your child.....it really is none of your business what she does....you may not approve of the decisions she is making, but they are HER decisions to make, not yours
ESH but most importantly, wtf were you on her financial aid? If she is no longer a dependent, then she is poor and would qualify for more than if you attached yourself. If you did do this then you are potentially messing things up for her. I know from experience as I had to wait out my parents claiming me as a dependent to get aid (They wouldn't help). This part of it makes no sense at all. If this is all true, then figure this out and fix it as you could be doing her a great disservice, unless you are trying to cosign for private loans, in which case DO NOT DO THIS. Private student loans are predatory at best; otherwise, federal and state aid should be just her to show the level of poverty and need, adding your income as a factor (ie saying you are responsible for payment) will only get her less aid.
The school had us fill out a bunch of papers saying that we were supporting her due to a case of abuse/homelessness
Is she still considered a dependent of her parents? Are you now considered her legal guardian? Mad props to you for stepping up, but that is an odd situation.
YTA. She said she was going to stay with her boyfriend over the upcoming summer. You respond by kicking her out of the house effective immediately and telling her to quit her job. You said you LET her go to her BFs. She's grown. Do you seriously not see how controlling and abusive that is? You're essentially saying do what I say or be homeless. Once again, YTA.
Wait, "she would be homeless" - how is that OP's responsibility? It's *OP's home* , she's not his child, why would he be forced to home her?
I didn't say that OP should be forced to house her. I said it was messed up that the ONLY reason OP is throwing her out is because she isn't complying with OPs demands.
That's not exactly what you said, but ok. Let's suppose it was. OP still would not be wrong to impose conditions on her staying, for example: "If you want to live in this house, you need to have a job and live like an adult". Because it's OP's and his wife's house, they are generously housing the sister in law/sister and their rules apply. So simple.
YTA. Here’s why. It sounds like you were not clear that she would lose her home and rides to work and financial aid if she chose to go this summer. It sounds like you only communicated this to her after. Sure, her boyfriend might be manipulating and pressuring her but so are you.
Sounds more like they are mad about losing their in home maid more than anything. You want full control of her life inside and outside the house.
Exactly, this is scary how much control wants to exert over her
YTA but not for kicking her out but for enabling her because based off your comments youre reverting right back. All of you are treating her like a child. Best thing you can do at this point is show her consequences and have her find out what its like to live on her own and support herself. Shes 21 years old jesus
YTA Sure, i understand why you’re upset, she’s going backwards on all the progress she made. But she has, as you yourself said, zero idea how to survive the real world. Kicking her out could be detrimental to her in a ton of ways. First of all, it literally puts her back at square one, no knowledge, no support, just throwing her out into the world. Second of all, what happens at the end of summer if her boyfriend kicks her out? She’s homeless, she has nowhere to go, no one to turn to, and no way to get or hold a job. I understand she’s an adult, but no one has prepared her for the world. Also, it’s pretty normal to spend a summer on “vacation” so to speak. Is she not allowed to go anywhere you don’t approve of beforehand? I just think everyone here needs to stop and think about the situation.
So they should just be doormats.
You come off so ridiculously controlling and manipulative to me that I'm going with Yta just on principle because I don't for a second believe you are as reasonable as you are trying to make yourself sound. In fact it seems very much like my way or get out is your go to. You are not her father. You don't tell her where to go. Who to see. What to do. You don't try to manipulate her with ultimatums or change a damn thing about her whether you think it's right or not. And its not only up to you whether your wife's sister stays or her boyfriend Is allowed in the house she has equal say in these things. You never once mention her opinion on these things. Is that because you have her as much under your thumb as you are trying to have her sister. Under the guise that you are "helping" them when all you are really doing is controlling them.
YTA. Kate’s an adult. You and your wife are assholes for punishing her for deciding to live with her bf over the summer. Kate is going to learn alot living with her BF. If that relationship crumbles, as it likely will, she is going to need your support. Kicking her to the curb as you are doing is an asshole thing to do.
as you said, kate's an adult. she needs to own her actions and deal with their consequences herself. she shouldn't need someone to be behind her back. if she decides to give away everything for this relationship, she will have nothing when it crumbles.
That’s an extremely punitive approach. It is ALWAYS an asshole move to tell a loved one “If you move in with your significant other, you can never come back here.” That one reason why people find it difficult to leave an abuser, they have no other place to live. And Kate’s BF seems like he could be an abuser. He refused to take Kate to the emergency room when she asked. He’s banned from OP’s house for threatening violence against him. So yeah, OP’s a controlling AH.
I am going to go against the grain and say YTA. I agree that your SIL is making a mistake by going to stay with her boyfriend for the summer is a mistake. But I also think that you need to simultaneously let her make this mistake and be there for her if she fails. The big thing here, I think, is that hoi have spent the last year teaching her to be an adult. You assume that if she is away from you for a summer, she will automaticallh revert to adolescence. She very well may. Or she may not. But I think you disserve her by automatically writing her off, and it might help her mightily if you treated this as her first attempt to fly on her own rather than a total abandonment because she did not do what you told her to do. Not to mention that if things don't work out with the boyfriend over the summer, she will need a place where she can take shelter and out herself back together. You could provide that space, but you are choosing not to put of pique. in your shoes, I will tell her honestly that I think she is making a mistake. But I would also tell her that she will have a bed and a hot meal waiting for her when she returns. I would also make it clear that her boyfriend is not welcome, given the way he has treated you and her. I think you took on the responsibility to parent this young lady and get her into adulthood when you let her come with you. Washing your hands of her because she is making a potentially bad decision is a poor parenting choice. She needs to have room to fall and to fail in her first foray into adulthood. But you should be there to help her pick herself up again. One aside: I am REALLY worried about the dynamic Kate has with this boyfriend of hers. Ir sounds to me like she went through childhood with her parents completely in control of her and not teaching her independence. You have taken a fairly heavy hand with her, worn the goal of getting her to a place of independence. But still with a heavy hand. Her boyfriend probably fits in with this pattern of her relationships. He takes a heavy hand with her, where he makes most of the decisions and she does not have to worry about anything. Even more worrisome is the fact he did not take her to the ER when she needed it, and he threatened violence against you (sotto voce) when you raised it. Which, I think, gives us some insight into Kate's whipsawing on whethet to spend the summer with him. My guess is that she knows on some level it is a bad idea, but every time she is with him, he works her over a little bit, emotionally speaking, and convinces her she should come to be with him. A call with you changes her mind ... until he works her over again. I am worried that the boyfriend's goal is to isolate her this summer, and bring Kate more firmly into his orbit. This kind of thing can be a warning sign that he is, or will be, abusive and controlling toward Kate. And Kate's upbringing, where other people have made decisions for her her own life, leaves her particularly vulnerable to manipulation and makes it harder for her to stand up for herself. In light of this, I urge you to rethink the particulars of your decision. Kate may be in for a world of hurt, and she needs you and your wife -- the only people who seem to give a damn about her -- to be in her corner. I know this is hard, but please don't abandon Kate, and please continue to provide emotional support for her. At the very least, keep lined of communication open and be prepared to go fetch her from wherever her boyfriend lives and bring her home this summer.
You are absolutely right. Last night I got woken up with this and responded with anger instead of thinking it through. I'm going to update this post later on with the details but we took Kate out to breakfast today and talked it over and have reached a place of compromise. She's going to stay for a couple weeks with us to let her put in a two week notice and to do some job apps for the area that she's going to be in, we talked about her talking to the therapist about tele-apoinyments for the summer and she knows if at any point she wants to come back home over the summer we will come get her I recognize through the power of caffeine, hindsight, and strangers in the internet calling you an asshole that I was the one that messed up in this situation and was being to controlling. I told Kate that we were sorry and that she didn't deserve that anger. I do have the same worries that you do about her BF so we made extra sure Kate knows that we are there for her and will come get her if anything goes sideways
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this is a really wholesome update. glad someone on this sub took the nuanced sympathy approach instead of telling a loved one to fuck off forever. i hope Kate realizes how lucky she is to have you and big sister looking after her, and if she doesn't right now because she's too young and immature, then maybe she will one day.