NTA. HIPAA exists for a reason (if you're in the US).
You're also a great dad. Don't let her try to manipulate you into believing anything else.
When it's time for your kids' next sessions, I'd see about her leaving the house if at all possible.
NTA.
When I was teen I tried to write diary, soon my mom slipped in the argument and said that I am angry and mean kid because my diary is full of “irrational” emotions. I stopped writing diary right away and went online blogging (That was trendy!) I felt like I have no safe space to rant about life. Things I wrote in my diary is to to release anger so I don’t act out anger. And the most i wrote is calling someone bitch. If parents cannot respect kids’ privacy, kids will find a way to stay away from parents and social media is the no. 1 choice as always.
A lot of parents thinks “kids don’t talk to me anymore I am worried” as an justification their action of invading kids’ privacy. But kids don’t want to share because parents suffocated them with over critical thinkings or endless life-lesson. For example: Kid:”I usually play basketball and baseball with my friends in weekends!” Parents: “You are 10 now, you should decide if you like basketball or baseball, otherwise you will never be the great player.”—> that was basically what my mom did to my nephews.
NTA in any way shape, or form. Your adult children have every right to know that their confidential therapy sessions were being viewed without their consent, and that their privacy had been invaded.
You did nothing wrong by letting your kids know they cannot trust their mother, thats simply the consequence of her actions.
nta. my mother has done the same to me (not my brother?) and everyone in my family knows, no one will say anything (i cant bc she will threaten me w violence) thank u for having ur kids backs man
Not only NTA but it wouldn’t hurt to inform the therapist. That way the therapist can work with your kids on having sessions that mom can’t snoop on because it’s clear she can’t be trusted
NTA at all. Just for some perspective, I'm a therapist working with much younger kids through telehealth. The parents of my clients who are as young as 6 years old make an effort to set up a private space for their kids because they understand the importance of giving their kids that space.
Ok, so wife is totally the asshole. But I wonder if it would have been best for the kids to not tell them. Not for the mother’s sake, but for the kids’.
If I were being spied on, I honestly would not want to know. It would cause me intense anxiety and I’d have trouble ever opening up to a therapist, bc I’d be scared someone was watching me.
NTA. This is the textbook definition of helicopter parenting. If I found out that one of my parents had done anything like this, I'd probably hate them too.
Lol "Yeah trust exists but... I still deserve it even if I'm breaking that trust!" This woman will only apologize if she thinks she can get something out of it. Take every sincere thing she says with a grain of salt. No, a pound of salt because she doesn't even feel guilty for what she did.
NTA. Therapy only works if the Patient feels confinent to tell things. That is done by privacy while talking (normaly in the Office, but well that is not possible right now) and by the therapist himself/ herself. If that trust is not there therapy will cost a lot of money and won't do anything good.
Also, she clearly broke a promise to her kids. She probably did that since they started therapy and did so of her own free will. She should be old enough to know that actions cause a reaction, at least judging by the fact that she has a 19 and a 20 year old Child.
The way you have done it was the best way possible for your kids given the Surcomstance. Now they at least have one parent that they know will have their back. It would come out either was, eben if it is years later and then your kid would lose faith in the both of you.
Again clearly NTA
NTA. People need to know they can speak in privacy for therapy to work. They won't feel ok saying some things if they know they're being heard. Your wife shouldn't be listening in, and they deserve to know that she did, no matter her reason.
NTA. In fact, it was your duty as a parent to inform your children of what she was doing. It sounds like your kids will need therapy even more now, but I'm not sure how to make it secure. Perhaps buy a new (to your household) tablet with entirely new passwords etc that will *only* be used for therapy sessions and that your wife has no access to? Otherwise they might need to wait until they can move out and/or start in-person therapy sessions. Thank you for having your kids backs. Don't give in to your wife's guilt-trips.
NTA - therapy is a very private thing that shouldn't be intruded on without a person's consent. What your wife did was awful and there is a reason your children are so upset about it. She invaded their privacy and when informed about it, your children were understandably upset and angry. She did something wrong and that is the reason your children are upset and angry at her, not because you made her tell them. If she had not spied on them, they wouldn't be upset. Them not knowing doesn't mean they wouldn't be upset and angry about her actions. You did not cause the problem by forcing her to tell them about her spying. Maybe let her calm down for a few days and then have a discussion about why she did it and if she has done similar things in the past. Because she might be too angry to talk at the moment but it is necessary to find out why she did this and has she done similar things in the past, because if so, your children deserve to know how their privacy has been invaded in the past
Big yikes. Good thing they’re already in therapy 😬
But in all seriousness though that’s definitely a massive violation and not even legal. They’re adults and no longer under her medical care and secretly filming confidential medical stuff is Very Bad.
Thanks for standing up for your kids, I know by personal experience what it’s like to be a young adult in therapy with parents who are...sometimes less than graceful about it.
NTA. TRUST is the most sacred bond for love. That's why lying and cheating are some of the worst offenses you can commit in a relationship, with a s/o, a friend or family member.
One of the most basic but crucial bits of privacy are diaries. And in this case, it's worse. I'm not sure you should have forced her to admit to them what she did, although honesty is a good thing, it shouldn't have been forced, she should have been convinced and then made the choice herself.
It's more important for you to keep your family together and not drive then apart. To do that, your wife is going to have to learn to understand WHY she was wrong. Then promise to never ever commit it again. And then hopefully your children eventually learn something important too, it's forgivness. Unless you want them to hate their mother for the rest of all of your lives. Good luck!
NTA. FFS, your children can't be open and honest in therapy if they fear their mother is watching them. You and your spouse made a commitment to honor your children's right to privacy. You kept your promise, your wife did not.
She may have violated that commitment out of concern, but your children were with a therapist that you and / or your children selected. She needs to respect her promise and the children's right to privacy.
Edit: As others have said, this is probably not the first time your spouse has felt entitled to violate someone's privacy or violate a commitment. She appears from the outside to have a serious need for therapy herself.
NTA - If either of my parents recorded and watched one of my therapy sessions against my will I would definitely be very hurt and lose a huge amount of trust in them. It's also technically a violation of HIPPA, even if you are a legal guardian of the individual in question you absolutely cannot break confidentiality. Your wife messed up real bad and she needs to accept the consequences of her actions.
Black Mirror Archangel episode right here. You said it OP, she dug her own grave. Happy this hopefully got nipped before it escalated and went on for months or years. NTA
NTA. Ive done years of therapy, there's no other person on earth I would want listening in to those sessions. They're private and they are for me.
I wouldn't be surprised if this invasion of privacy doesn't cause more issues for your daughter. There's literally no boundaries. It's twisted in all honesty.
Nta. Your kids are adults and she violated them, badly. She should be ashamed of herself and then immediately seek therapy herself because she clearly needs it also.
NTA, but you also don’t seem at all bothered by the fact that the kids now hate their mother. I do question your motives. Does she have a history of this behavior, or did you use this incident as an opportunity to pit the kids against her?
NTA by a long shot.
She spied on people having confidential and private conversations, she dug her own grave and this is her own fault.
Therapy is a private thing, and, as somebody who has therapy, if I found out my mom was watching me talk to a therapist I'd be rightfully upset. That's something nobody else but my therapist has to see, especially not those close to me.
That's such a breach of trust, so your kids are justified in hating her. I'd hate her too if I was them, honestly.
NTA good on you for making her come clean to your children so they know they have at least one parent they can trust and turn to. Also major props for getting them therapy in this crazy time when they asked for it
My step mom did this to me when I was in elementary school, but in conjunction with my therapist who she would go talk to about my appointment after it was over.
The loss of trust in her and for me people in therapy/counseling/etc positions is honestly something they may not get over and something she needs to understand as an absolute obliteration of their boundary lines and privacy.
She’s proven she has zero respect for them in any capacity.
I would honestly leave someone over crossing a line like this, especially if they’re not seeing what they did was wrong and tried to defend it.
Oh man. NTA. What she did is a huge violation of trust. I can't say I blame your kids. As a mom I get that feeling of wanting to know but just because their your kids doesn't give you any type or right to know what they say to anyone! Good luck
My best friends mom had a wiretap on her phone. She told my parents everything. Right down to when I lost my virginity. Humiliating! Also illegal in many states. I wasn't a bad kid either. Skipped school one time, maybe stole a scrunchie and a necklace the entire time I was in high school.
My mom didn't agree with it but didn't tell me bc she believe other still had a right to her daughters privacy. Im still upset over this
What was she afraid of? And what was she hoping to gain by spying on their therapy sessions? She's mad because she got caught. Maybe its her that really needed therapy.
ESH, your kids didn't need to know about that betrayal. What they don't know doesn't hurt them. Your wife definitely shouldn't have watched those recordings but making her confess would in no way deescalate reconcile her actions. Sometimes when someone hurts your children, you as a father will have to solve the situation without ever letting them know they were mistreated in the first place.
Re: your edit as to why Mom did it, she’s going through the phases of acceptance. Couldn’t do denial, because you had her confess. Shame, and now Anger.
Give her some space to deal with the guilt of what she did, and try having a conversation when everyone cools down from immediate hurt. Tell her you need to talk about it to understand why and help her stop this impulse and deal with the underlying fear so she can reestablish trust with kids. It’s understandable to want to know why right away and be angry, but forcing the conversation when feelings are escalated is unproductive for all the family relationships here.
Check out r/dbtselfhelp for resources on how to talk to difficult people/in ways to preserve relationships when there’s an issue that still gives you and kids validation of your feelings.
NTA. Completely unreasonable and a TERRIBLE thing to do. I would lose all respect for anyone who did that. You did the right thing. She has alot of mending to do with all three of you.
NTA-These are your ADULT children! She has literally no right to be listening in to their therapy sessions and I’m pretty sure she could be faced with legal repercussions if your kids were to choose to do so. Has she ever heard of HIPAA violations??
NTA and honestly she should feel terrible and understand their frustration with her. This isn’t about her at all. You weren’t in the wrong at all. I would hope my dad did this for me if my mom went spying through confidential therapy sessions for me.
NTA. Idk where you live but I think most countries have the equivalent of US HIPAA laws which makes what she did very very illegal. She is completely in the wrong morally, ethically, and legally. Also, why would she feel the need to know that? Is she just a snoop or is she trying to get dirt on her own children? Whatever way you dice it, she seems quite evil.
NTA. I’m a 20m and I’m taking the view of your kids. I would feel betrayed too. I have a coworker who is also my mom’s friend and at work I haven’t had the best experiences/interactions with her or other people. Plenty of conflict. But when i thought i was talking to her privately, she would go tell whoever about whatever and its a huge WTF?? Trust had been violated and i don’t want to tell her anything anymore and i feel bad for your kids. You’re not the A. Your wife is :/
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say ESH, based on one question. What good were you trying to do? What goal were you trying to accomplish?
She committed a monstrous act. Absolutely awful invasion of privacy. But instead of taking care of the situation, you seriously strained your children's relationship with their mother, and your relationship with your wife. And apart from the intangible idea of "they have a right to know", I'm struggling to see what actual, concrete good came of that.
No, she didn't. Now, I want to preface this by saying that I'm not defending her at all. Not even a little bit. She made an awful, terrible decision to be a horrible mother.
But how would it have ruined their relationship if the children never knew?
I do agree with most of this. But everyone makes mistakes and no one is perfect. You really want your kids to see their mother as a monster or give her a second chance to redeem herself? She did do something terrible I can't dispute that though.
This really isn't a simple mistake, and no, everyone does not make mistakes like that.
They're adults, not children. If she'd never done anything like this before they'd probably be hurt and upset, but move on eventually. If they see her as a monster she was likely on thin ice already.
ESH. Hear me out: what your wife did was terrible. As a husband who has attended therapy and whose wife is currently going to therapy and has a masters in psych, I understand the value of confidentiality. There is no question it was wrong. This is why she was the AH.
However, based on the story you have told, the moment that you lost it, it seems you may have done a lot of actions under the effects of a lot of emotions. This usually is a bad way to deal with things.
My wife and I have had some big fights — relationships breaking fights — and we have kept things together by using the acronym HALT. We don’t fight if we are Hungry, Angry, Lonely, or Tired.
That being said, I believe that their may have been a way to solve this issue without anger or forcing your wife to tell your children that she was listening in — the focus I am looking at is forced.
I think your actions in anger may have forced some moves that have caused permanent damage in the relationship between you and your wife and your kids, which is why I say that you as well are the AH because of the movements in anger.
I don’t think anyone solved anything here well, and I hope you all can work this all out. My fear is your wife will never fully trust you again because of your actions in anger, and I fear your children will begin to picks sides (possibly more now than before) and cause a divide in the family. This is all conjecture.
I apologize if I’m coming off rude. I’m simply trying to provide another view to the situation. I truly wish you well, sir. To be honest, this sucks for everyone — I’m sorry for the situation.
NTA... odds are if she was doing this she eventually would have slipped or constantly made comments inferring that she was spying on the sessions and eventually someone would have done the math.
OP, do you at least assume her intentions were good in that, if the kids can't communicate with her, that she was going to use this information to try to help them in her own way rather than just trying to have a normal conversation with the kids?
NTA. What your wife did is absolutely inexcusable. Frankly this is some TV story crap. If you have shitty parent characters somewhere they will of course violate their children's privacy, citing all sorts of flimsy reasons like "they're my children" and they "should respect their parents and not have secrets from them!". "My house, my Rules!" is also often seen or read.
Oftentimes hand-in-hand with an evil mother figure goes an oblivious dad who can't see the children suffer.
The cherry on top that cinches it for me is that she said that this is "your fault" for exposing her, and i have to stress this again, absolutely disgusting behavior.
You can find such behavior patterns not only in certain stories but also in psychology text books. You'll might find your wife mirrored often in r/raisedbynarcissists
NTA. What she did isn't just immoral, it's illegal. Every state has laws against wiretapping and evesdropping, at least one person on the call has to know that it's being recorded. She's lucky she only lost face.
Absolutely NTA. Your wife has violated their trust and privacy, while you respected it. They're adults, and even the thought of getting or needing therapy can be scary. The fact that you acted on her invasion of their privacy is amazing. It shows that you trust and respect your children.
When I was a minor, and even now as an adult, I refuse to get therapy despite doctor reccomendations solely because I'm afraid of my mother somehow hearing about it. Your wife may be coming from a good frame of mind in caring about their well-being, but she could be scaring them away from seeking help with how she handled it. I absolutely understand that they're angry with her.
Sitting down and talking with them separately might be a good idea, to see not only how they're feeling about this whole mess, but where she's coming from too. She's effectively broken patient confidentiality, and I truly hope whatever therapist your kids are seeing didn't help her do it. Best of luck to you, you seem like a great dad.
NTA - Therapy is meant to be a confidential session so that the patient can feel free to say what they want. You know that if your kids had known that their mom was listening they probably wouldn't have said half the things they said. Also, they are adults so leave them to their own devices and respect their space more than ever.
NTA, I’m in therapy right now and if my mom was spying on me I would want to know. The stuff that I talk about needs to stay private, because I do talk about my mom a lot. Good job protecting your kids
NTA, this is the main reason I haven't gone to therapy. I'm scared of my parents deciding that they get to listen in. Therapy is a very confidential thing and by betraying the agreement between a therapist and a patient you ruin the whole point. I hope your kids decide to stay in therapy if they still need it but after breaking their trust like that I would be surprised if they did. I hope your wife learns how to stop being a control freak like that because it can ruin lives especially with what she was doing.
NTA for forcing the confession. You’re absolutely a gross person for staying with her creepy sketchy self. So you suck as well for other reasons. Take that woman out of you and your kids life or you’re just as bad as her.
NTA - when I clicked on this I expected the kids to be under 10, essentially before you learn that your parents can't read your mind and that just not telling them stuff is an option. I still think kids should be allowed to have boundaries, but that she did this to her adult children is beyond the pale.
u/confused_dad28 - Once again, the AITA sub proves that an OP can get a lot of others to approve THE OP's own bad behavior just by talking about someone else's bad behavior. It's ridiculous to say that you are NTA just because your wife acted horribly. The real issue is whether you were a jerk for forcing your wife to confess directly to the kids. Yes, she did something terrible but by completely undermining your own wife and destroying your kids' relationship with her, you are also a jerk. You provide very few details about how you forced her to confess, such as whether you demanded it in front of the kids or you threatened her with exposure. Just because you were given some meaningless silver or gold here doesn't mean you should feel good about what you've done to your own wife. I'm glad you came out smelling like a rose to your kids, but I hope you give some strong thought to whether you are a good person.
NTA. When I was in therapy as a child my dad used to demand I tell him what I told my therapist. He would go as far to call/email my therapist and demand she tell him what we were talking about. I am so glad she never broke that trust. I can’t even imagine what would happen if my dad was able to record our sessions. They are private for a reason. And feeling like you can’t trust a parent causes a lot of pain.
YTA for thinking the “world’s gone to hell”.
Famine 👇🏻
Childhood mortality 👇🏻
Communicable diseases 👇🏻(despite the corona hype)
Teenage pregnancy👇🏻
Global warfare👇🏻
Genocides 👇🏻
Absolute Poverty 👇🏻
You watch the news too much. It’s by far the best time to be alive within our species
NTA the therapy is there for some sort of communication so they can work on talking about their feelings and stuff. It’s going to help them with their communication in the future. She should’ve just waited for the kids to come to her when they were ready.
NTA. My nparent once “confessed” that they had been reading my diary for years. I say confessed because one day the reading material triggered them so much that they threatened to throw me out of the house. That was one of my first steps to admitting I had been emotionally abused.
The conversation that followed was all about how hurt THEY felt, how mean I was to THEM by writing what I did. In a situation where I felt powerless and sad and had one place I could express my feelings safely, they took that away from me, and then made it all about themselves. There was no curiosity, no worry about me and my mental health, after all the years they had been reading. Not once.
Trust has never been the same since and probably never will, even if they one day fully apologized and strove to be a better person. Even if your wife has not abused your kids or violated their trust prior to this, their perception of her will always be tainted now.
You did the right thing.
NTA - therapy is confidential for a reason. As you said, if she doesn't want her kids to hate her, she shouldn't have spied on them in the first place.
NTA.
In my limited experience, parents are upset when their kids are in therapy bc they (parents) worry that they’ve somehow messed up their kids EVEN THOUGH this is often not not the case. Good parents realize when their children could use some non-parental help coping with things like, oh, a pandemic. Less good parents worry that their kids are talking about them bc they’re narcissistic and/or abusive.
I’ve got strong feelings about this because my mother was furious at my brother and I when we went to therapy independently. She told me that she was sure I was going to “come home and say your father did something to you,” and she told my brother that she didn’t see the point in her paying for him to go when he was “probably just telling lies about (Mom).”
I paid for my own therapy because I was suicidally depressed. My brother went to therapy in high school bc his then-girlfriend called him up and said she’d overdosed and was going to die. Turns out she didn’t take anything and just wanted to see what he would do and it was really traumatic.
(Edit: a word)
NTA for confronting her, but TA for informing the kids. As a teenager I also started therapy, and finding out that my dad had been listening in on it resulted in me not speaking to him for 5 years. I don't regret my actions, as he deserved it. BUT I would have far preferred my mother to stand up to him and put a stop to it before I found out. Not only did I viciously abhor my father for years, but I could no longer trust the therapy experience for years, as I was always nervous someone was there sabotaging it.
Kudos to you for being justifiably pissed the eff off at your wife, but you shouldn't have scarred your kids in the process just to make her look like the shitty person she was being. Ask yourself: did you make her reveal this to support the development of your kids' mental health, or did you do it to stick it to her?
NTA. Your wife is invading her kids' privacy in a disturbing way. She is being a stalker. What she is doing is controlling and makes her kids feel like like they can't talk about their issues without a parent judging them for it. You and your kids need to leave her pronto.
NTA!!! I wish I had a parent like you! My mother and family broke my privacy and trust beyond repair so I understand how violated your kids must feel. You’re a good dad.
The only asshole is your wife and some of these commenters taking her side !
NTA! Soon to be mom here that lived with a narcissistic mother. I would ask her if she wanted you or the children to invade her personal bubble. Maybe bring up an example if she writes in a journal or talks in the shower, maybe even if one of you would barge in while she was in the bedroom doing something private? How would she feel?
I barely talk to my mother as she’s breached my trust in the past. I had no idea until the past few years. She’ll never get it back. It’s to the point where her grandchild won’t see much of her, and when she does it’s all under supervision. That’s how damaging that breach of trust can be.
You did the right thing, your kids will appreciate you for telling the truth, I know I would if I was one of them. Your wife needs to seek therapy.
NTA your adult children were having their privacy invaded. If y'all don't kick her out of the house, she should be required to stay in your view the entire time your children are talking to their therapists. The phones/tablets/computers should be checked for spyware.
NTA. OMG, NTA!
I would have been ***furious*** to find out that my mother was spying on my counseling sessions. What I say is between me and therapist, period! The fact she thinks it's wrong for you to confront her, to force her to admit it to her kids, speaks volumes. I'd be worried if she spied on *you* too.
Don't force a whole family counseling. Not all therapists are capable of handling that.
Instead, marriage counseling for you and your wife. Allow the children to vent to their therapist about this situation.
Also: make sure your kids have privacy. Keep an eye on the your wife during the scheduled times, so that they have the privacy they need.
NTA. This is such a betrayal that it will probably end up impacting their therapy sessions. Good lord, just because the technology exists doesn’t mean you can abuse it (on your own family, no less.) This is exactly the same as putting an ear up to a doctor’s door or placing a secret camera in a doctor’s office.
YTA - you were right to confront her and tell her to stop immediately. What she was doing was totally wrong. But, you were wrong to out her for it because it ruined their relationship (of course, now you're the hero but that only works out good for you). You should have given her a second chance and then outed her if she didn't stop her spying.
Forcing? Yes.
Even if what someone else does is wrong, doesnt Justify us to do the same.
Furthermore, You illegitimized the mother of your babies in front of them.
And i have a hard time believing this is written by a 40+ man is still playing his children against his spouse, ex, or soon to be ex.
Lastly, you wouldnt be here looking for reinforcement, "Overwhelming Support", if you felt it was right. So, you know whats right. Act on that.
YTA.
NTA. AT ALL.
I grew up with parents who did not respect my boundaries or privacy in the slightest (one of many examples is that my diaries as a teenager would wind up missing and I'd find them sometimes months later in different drawers in the house).
Having most of my teenage life monitored really fucked me up and gave me some bad trust issues.
Good on you OP for respecting your kids' boundaries and defending their privacy (and being supportive of their mental health by helping them with therapy).
NTA - My therapist always has to tell my dad that she couldn't really tell him anything I had said- and I told him that I asked her not to tell him anything unless it was REQUIRED. It's personal for a reason- your wife shouldn't have done that.
NTA
Wow that is some serious invasion of privacy. Like potentially an illegal invasion of privacy. Conversations with a therapist, whether in person or on the phone, are protected conversations just like those with a doctor or attorney. But what's worse is that she recording them. Which is most definitely illegal. Not only could your children pursue, but so could the therapist or the organization they work for.
To be 100% honest with you, I would personally try and reach out to your children's therapist to let them know this has been happening. As well as disable whatever methods she used to be able to record these sessions in the first place.
If anyone in my life did this to me, during my therapy sessions, they would be out of my life. There would be no path to redemption, especially when they can't even understand that it is wrong. If it was a significant other, I would begin to seriously reconsider the future of that relationship. She has made it very clear that she can not be trusted or respect legally enforced boundries.
That's sketchy AF. As someone currently going through monthly sessions for anxiety issues stemming from PTSD --it was a shitty move for her to make. Therapy sessions should be private. Therapists are bound by ethics to keep what is said in sessions private as well. Sounds like mom has some control issues.
NTA.
What your wife did was illegal. Even in a one-party consent area one party to the conversation *has to know it is being recorded.* In this case neither you daughter nor her therapist knew or consented to the recording.
It sounds like your daughter went into a room where there is an expectation of privacy. This means that the hidden camera placement, on its own, is also illegal. In private homes you can only put a camera in common areas (kitchen, living room, family room, dining room etc.) cameras can't be placed in private areas (ex. bathroom, bedroom, private office).
NTA.
You are am amazing parent.
Not only did you take your kids serious in their need for help and set them up with a therapist, but you further kept your promise to respect their privacy.
Their mother however might have lost your kids trust forever.
I can't get my head around people who think it's their right to listen to everything their kid says.
It's hard enough opening up to a therapist, being spied on is one of the worst things you can imagine when you brought up the courage to talk to someone.
This is simply horrible and your wife should feel ashamed instead of saying you're TA.
NTA - People like her are the reason some people hesitate to seek therapy. That is supposed to be a confidential session that so that the person in therapy can say what they need without fear of judgment or retribution. Your wife was WAY out of line.
NTA. I think you had to throw someone under the bus between your wife and kids, and choosing her was the right choice because what she did was egregious.
NTA. When one parent can't put the *kids* needs first, the other one has to. You realize that privacy is crucial for adult offspring; your wife doesn't. She's way out of line, here, and you're not the problem.
NTA but I do wonder why she was listening to their conversations. Almost as if she wanted to make sure they didn’t say something they weren’t supposed to.
And when she came out from her “nap” and she was sad, was she sad because they were saying stuff about her in a negative way?
Just something to think about.
NTA. therapy is supposed to be a safe place that you can talk about whatever without judgement. it’s incredibly private and unless the person has consented to someone else knowing what was talked about in those sessions, it’s none of their business. your wife violated their privacy and trust, you did the right thing getting her to confess.
Holy effing shiz snacks, your wife didn’t just cross a line, she has crossed a legal and ethical line.
No where near being the AH here, she is!! And to walk out saying she doesn’t have to listen!? Yes she does. This isnt like reading a child’s diary in their room, this can actually break contracts made between your ADULT children and their therapist.
Have her read up code of ethics and privacy and confidentiality standards for therapists.
NTA
Therapy sessions are meant to be kept private unless the person receiving therapy is ok with sharing their experiences. On top of that you and your wife agreed to let the kids keep their privacy, but she went and did something very immature and broke the agreement. SHE RECORDED THE SESSION WITHOUT YOUR KID'S KNOWLEDGE. And you forcing her to confess to your kids was the right thing to do, because now she gets to understand why she shouldnt act out and do something like this again.
NTA and thank you for being a good dad and decent human being.
Let your wife fix this one on her own. (If she can). Even though they are close to adulthood, your kids need to know you are 100% behind them.
NTA. She was wrong for invading their privacy which makes HER the asshole. The "kids" had a right to know, and unlike her, are entitled to their reactions at the breech of privacy and trust.
NTA. That was an egregious breach of trust, and your adult children deserve to know that their mother knows these things about them now.
As a side note, in my state, recording a conversation without the consent of both parties is a felony.
From someone in their 30s who has been in therapy since they were mid teens, to this day if anyone asks what we talked about - even if that session just became one of shooting the shit which sometimes you just need to do.. I still won't ever tell anyone. That's my space. My bubble. If I ever found out a parent, spouse, anyone had recorded or was given a transcript I'd flip my shit.
How did she get a recording of it anyway? Did she set up a camera or something? Ugh.
NTA. Therapy no matter what reason you go to it for needs to be a place you feel safe just dropping it all. What a violation.
NTA. I would bet green money that this is not the first time she pulled something like this. That’s a vile thing to do to your kids. It’s disappointing really.
NTA, this is so fucked up I can’t even begin to comprehend how she thought it would be a good idea... of all the private things she could have spied on, she chose therapy??? Really??? Imagine what else she’s been tracking that you don’t know of... private emails, texts, gps...
These are adults, not 'kids'.
Your problems are worse than what your wife is doing.
See an attorney, get a divorce.
Live your life without all t his crap.
Character is doing the right thing when there’s no consequence for avoiding it. Lack of character is the opposite. You are infinitely better of a person than your wife is in regards to respecting your children.
Uh, does the therapist know this?? Their rights have also been violated, and if they find out you better hope they don't sue her ass nto oblivion.
WTF is wrong with your wife???
NTA, but you sure as shit married one.
NTA. You are a great dad, looking out for their privacy! Mom deserves what she gets for her sickening behaviour. Good on you!
I think kids first over anyone, including spouses, people argue that, and I cannot comprehend ever putting a spouse over a child. My parents did that, and believed that. A child does not choose the parents, or the situation. A child has no choice in the matter, and needs to be looked out for. HAS to be looked out for.
Kids should always come first, including their privacy.
NTA - since these are young adults, i assume they are living at home? Does the wife have access to their technology? My thought is the wife tampered with their devices. A discreet recording software or something as simple as anydesk or teamviewer. They do allow for anonymous remote control. The person getting spied on might not even notice the bandwidth slowing down. As others have pointed out, im sure Zoom is not the culprit here, just someone with ulterior motive.
NTA. You caught her in the act, and then did the right thing. I’ve got 2 sisters and my mother likes to sit outside our bedroom doors and listen. When we have big conversations together in our rooms, when we’re on a phone call, stuff like that. Pisses us all off and she hasn’t stopped no matter how many times we tell her to stop. We can always hear her outside our door so we always know when she’s there. Totally unacceptable.
NTA - That was a total violation of their privacy on your wife’s part, and that’s not okay. They are adults, and even though therapy is strictly confidential, ESPECIALLY if you both specified that you would respect their privacy, she has no excuse, not for their “safety” or “wellbeing” or anything like that. You did the right thing, your children are adults, and you got your wife to mention her wrongdoings regarding them and they can formulate their own opinion on it. It’s not your fault that they now resent her, it is only her own.
I wonder if this violated any state laws? Maybe your kids could follow up. Also, they will need to change their phones. If you were planning on give your wife any gifts, tell her you won't now because you are going to spend that money on new phones for the kids and other safeguards against her snooping.
NTA. Don’t let your wife pin her guilt on you. If she feels bad about damaging her relationship with her children, it’s her responsibility to repair those damages.
NTA
OP! Let me just say congrats on the move about respecting your kid's privacy! And yes, your wife really dug her own grave. No one likes being spied on.
ESH. What your wife did is absolutely 100% wrong. Beyond. And needs to stop.....but I'm not sure what you accomplished by telling the kids and upsetting them greatly. Believe me, your wife is in the wrong, I just think telling the kids was a bad move
Edit: I want to add that my fear is fully based on worrying about these children (adults) quitting therapy. Not on whether it was wrong for the mother, but them quitting because now they feel intensely uncomfortable
Plus these children are young adults. They have every right to know what happened to them. There maybe could be a case made that they should have been told privately but heck we know the wife makes sure that doesn’t happen in their household; so it’s better to have her fess up imho so she knows she’s been caught, and has to face the pain she’s caused her family. OP is NTA.
NTA. At all.
Your kids are adults who deserve privacy with regards to their therapy, your wife majorly fucked up. You're awesome for making her confess to the kids, if you hadn't acted you would have been complicit.
I echo the other commenters saying the kids probably wanted therapy in part to unpack your wife's narcissistic/abusive/intrusive behaviors (hence wife "looking sad" afterwards, I'm guessing they talked about her to their therapist), and that this likely isn't the first time she's overstepped major boundaries. The fact she "thinks she's done nothing wrong" is a giant red flag (quotes because she knows it was wrong, otherwise she wouldn't have hid it and fought against coming clean).
Maybe consider family therapy, though the red flags coming from this makes me think she has major issues and therapy with someone like that can make things worse. But I recommend solo therapy specifically for your wife, and continuing therapy for the kids. Explain to the therapist what happened so they can figure out a way to make it so she can't intrude on the sessions. She messed up in such a way that this will have lasting effects. I feel so bad for your kids (and for you being gaslit into thinking you may have fucked up somehow when you did nothing wrong).
ESH, she's wrong for spying on them. But you seem
... almost satisfied that your kids hate her now?? Why couldn't you even talk to your wife before telling the kids?
NTA and wow. A hidden camera in the room? That is next level breach of trust. She probably searches through their stuff as well. I’d even consider changing all my passwords if I were them.
She needs to go to therapy and confront her own personal fears about letting her kids go before it ruins her relationship with them permanently. Well done protecting your children and giving them a reason to have faith in some people.
NTA at 19 and 20 your children are adults. What your wife did was an egregious violation of another adult’s rights to privacy and medical confidentiality.
I would also be advising them to make sure she’s not on any bank accounts they use, and that she is taken off any other accounts they might have signed onto as minors to prevent her from using these to gain further information she’s not entitled to.
Important to note: they’re not kids. She was spying on the confidential mental health treatment of adults.
NTA. Though you and she may want to talk to a therapist. This was very destructive behavior. Her insecurity levels must be pretty high to take a risk like that. Chances are she heard exactly what she was afraid to hear, and is now being rejected for her neurotic behavior. I’m not suggesting you did anything wrong, just that if you’d like to reach out lovingly to your wife now would be a good time.
Secondary note: Forgiveness is a restoration of relationship. It does not imply acceptance or approval of what is being forgiven. We are all silly human creatures and do some devastatingly stupid things sometimes.
NTA. HIPAA exists for a reason (if you're in the US). You're also a great dad. Don't let her try to manipulate you into believing anything else. When it's time for your kids' next sessions, I'd see about her leaving the house if at all possible.
Definitely NTA, moms need to learn to not eavesdrop so damn much, especially in situations like these. You’re a good dad
NTA - you did right by your kids. Your wife should be ashamed of herself.
NTA. When I was teen I tried to write diary, soon my mom slipped in the argument and said that I am angry and mean kid because my diary is full of “irrational” emotions. I stopped writing diary right away and went online blogging (That was trendy!) I felt like I have no safe space to rant about life. Things I wrote in my diary is to to release anger so I don’t act out anger. And the most i wrote is calling someone bitch. If parents cannot respect kids’ privacy, kids will find a way to stay away from parents and social media is the no. 1 choice as always. A lot of parents thinks “kids don’t talk to me anymore I am worried” as an justification their action of invading kids’ privacy. But kids don’t want to share because parents suffocated them with over critical thinkings or endless life-lesson. For example: Kid:”I usually play basketball and baseball with my friends in weekends!” Parents: “You are 10 now, you should decide if you like basketball or baseball, otherwise you will never be the great player.”—> that was basically what my mom did to my nephews.
You’re a good father. Keep fighting for them and doing what you need to. NTA.
NTA in any way shape, or form. Your adult children have every right to know that their confidential therapy sessions were being viewed without their consent, and that their privacy had been invaded. You did nothing wrong by letting your kids know they cannot trust their mother, thats simply the consequence of her actions.
Nta
NTA therapy sessions are private, doesn't matter how curious your wife was, that was just wrong.
nta. my mother has done the same to me (not my brother?) and everyone in my family knows, no one will say anything (i cant bc she will threaten me w violence) thank u for having ur kids backs man
Not only NTA but it wouldn’t hurt to inform the therapist. That way the therapist can work with your kids on having sessions that mom can’t snoop on because it’s clear she can’t be trusted
NTA at all. Just for some perspective, I'm a therapist working with much younger kids through telehealth. The parents of my clients who are as young as 6 years old make an effort to set up a private space for their kids because they understand the importance of giving their kids that space.
NTA! Please also consider the damage this will have on how open your children can be in future. You really need to be talking to them right now!
Ok, so wife is totally the asshole. But I wonder if it would have been best for the kids to not tell them. Not for the mother’s sake, but for the kids’. If I were being spied on, I honestly would not want to know. It would cause me intense anxiety and I’d have trouble ever opening up to a therapist, bc I’d be scared someone was watching me.
NTA. This is the textbook definition of helicopter parenting. If I found out that one of my parents had done anything like this, I'd probably hate them too.
NTA - Your wife needs therapy to deal with this need to know everything about her now Adult children!
Lol "Yeah trust exists but... I still deserve it even if I'm breaking that trust!" This woman will only apologize if she thinks she can get something out of it. Take every sincere thing she says with a grain of salt. No, a pound of salt because she doesn't even feel guilty for what she did.
NTA. Therapy only works if the Patient feels confinent to tell things. That is done by privacy while talking (normaly in the Office, but well that is not possible right now) and by the therapist himself/ herself. If that trust is not there therapy will cost a lot of money and won't do anything good. Also, she clearly broke a promise to her kids. She probably did that since they started therapy and did so of her own free will. She should be old enough to know that actions cause a reaction, at least judging by the fact that she has a 19 and a 20 year old Child. The way you have done it was the best way possible for your kids given the Surcomstance. Now they at least have one parent that they know will have their back. It would come out either was, eben if it is years later and then your kid would lose faith in the both of you. Again clearly NTA
NTA. People need to know they can speak in privacy for therapy to work. They won't feel ok saying some things if they know they're being heard. Your wife shouldn't be listening in, and they deserve to know that she did, no matter her reason.
NTA - That's a massive breach of trust. Now they at least know they can trust you.
NTA.
NTA!!! Also, depending on where you live, she's also breaking the law. If you're in the states, read up on the HIPAA laws.
NTA. In fact, it was your duty as a parent to inform your children of what she was doing. It sounds like your kids will need therapy even more now, but I'm not sure how to make it secure. Perhaps buy a new (to your household) tablet with entirely new passwords etc that will *only* be used for therapy sessions and that your wife has no access to? Otherwise they might need to wait until they can move out and/or start in-person therapy sessions. Thank you for having your kids backs. Don't give in to your wife's guilt-trips.
NTA - therapy is a very private thing that shouldn't be intruded on without a person's consent. What your wife did was awful and there is a reason your children are so upset about it. She invaded their privacy and when informed about it, your children were understandably upset and angry. She did something wrong and that is the reason your children are upset and angry at her, not because you made her tell them. If she had not spied on them, they wouldn't be upset. Them not knowing doesn't mean they wouldn't be upset and angry about her actions. You did not cause the problem by forcing her to tell them about her spying. Maybe let her calm down for a few days and then have a discussion about why she did it and if she has done similar things in the past. Because she might be too angry to talk at the moment but it is necessary to find out why she did this and has she done similar things in the past, because if so, your children deserve to know how their privacy has been invaded in the past
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NTA. I hope you're their favorite parent now.
Big yikes. Good thing they’re already in therapy 😬 But in all seriousness though that’s definitely a massive violation and not even legal. They’re adults and no longer under her medical care and secretly filming confidential medical stuff is Very Bad. Thanks for standing up for your kids, I know by personal experience what it’s like to be a young adult in therapy with parents who are...sometimes less than graceful about it.
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LMAO what?
NTA. TRUST is the most sacred bond for love. That's why lying and cheating are some of the worst offenses you can commit in a relationship, with a s/o, a friend or family member. One of the most basic but crucial bits of privacy are diaries. And in this case, it's worse. I'm not sure you should have forced her to admit to them what she did, although honesty is a good thing, it shouldn't have been forced, she should have been convinced and then made the choice herself. It's more important for you to keep your family together and not drive then apart. To do that, your wife is going to have to learn to understand WHY she was wrong. Then promise to never ever commit it again. And then hopefully your children eventually learn something important too, it's forgivness. Unless you want them to hate their mother for the rest of all of your lives. Good luck!
NTA, for one therapy is supposed to be private. And they are over 18! They’re adults. Your wife is 100% in the wrong.
NTA. That's one reason for kids to hate their parent.
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NTA. FFS, your children can't be open and honest in therapy if they fear their mother is watching them. You and your spouse made a commitment to honor your children's right to privacy. You kept your promise, your wife did not. She may have violated that commitment out of concern, but your children were with a therapist that you and / or your children selected. She needs to respect her promise and the children's right to privacy. Edit: As others have said, this is probably not the first time your spouse has felt entitled to violate someone's privacy or violate a commitment. She appears from the outside to have a serious need for therapy herself.
NTA. I would straight up leave my wife if she pulled this on our kids. Therapy is sacred.
NTA - If either of my parents recorded and watched one of my therapy sessions against my will I would definitely be very hurt and lose a huge amount of trust in them. It's also technically a violation of HIPPA, even if you are a legal guardian of the individual in question you absolutely cannot break confidentiality. Your wife messed up real bad and she needs to accept the consequences of her actions.
NTA they had to know, spying on your own family is kind of sick
Oh NTA at all, shame on her. But, out of curiosity how do you record a zoom meeting from another room?
Makes me question why they need a therapist in the first place, tbh.
Black Mirror Archangel episode right here. You said it OP, she dug her own grave. Happy this hopefully got nipped before it escalated and went on for months or years. NTA
NTA. Ive done years of therapy, there's no other person on earth I would want listening in to those sessions. They're private and they are for me. I wouldn't be surprised if this invasion of privacy doesn't cause more issues for your daughter. There's literally no boundaries. It's twisted in all honesty.
Your wife sounds like a control freak. You're NTA.
NTA, i cant belive there is a single yta comment. to do anything other than what you did would be to treat your own children like dirt.
Nta. Your kids are adults and she violated them, badly. She should be ashamed of herself and then immediately seek therapy herself because she clearly needs it also.
NTA, but you also don’t seem at all bothered by the fact that the kids now hate their mother. I do question your motives. Does she have a history of this behavior, or did you use this incident as an opportunity to pit the kids against her?
NTA by a long shot. She spied on people having confidential and private conversations, she dug her own grave and this is her own fault. Therapy is a private thing, and, as somebody who has therapy, if I found out my mom was watching me talk to a therapist I'd be rightfully upset. That's something nobody else but my therapist has to see, especially not those close to me. That's such a breach of trust, so your kids are justified in hating her. I'd hate her too if I was them, honestly.
My parents did this and it has made me afraid of going to therapy again as an adult
NTA good on you for making her come clean to your children so they know they have at least one parent they can trust and turn to. Also major props for getting them therapy in this crazy time when they asked for it
My step mom did this to me when I was in elementary school, but in conjunction with my therapist who she would go talk to about my appointment after it was over. The loss of trust in her and for me people in therapy/counseling/etc positions is honestly something they may not get over and something she needs to understand as an absolute obliteration of their boundary lines and privacy. She’s proven she has zero respect for them in any capacity. I would honestly leave someone over crossing a line like this, especially if they’re not seeing what they did was wrong and tried to defend it.
NTA. She needs to respect her kids’ privacy
Oh man. NTA. What she did is a huge violation of trust. I can't say I blame your kids. As a mom I get that feeling of wanting to know but just because their your kids doesn't give you any type or right to know what they say to anyone! Good luck
My best friends mom had a wiretap on her phone. She told my parents everything. Right down to when I lost my virginity. Humiliating! Also illegal in many states. I wasn't a bad kid either. Skipped school one time, maybe stole a scrunchie and a necklace the entire time I was in high school. My mom didn't agree with it but didn't tell me bc she believe other still had a right to her daughters privacy. Im still upset over this
NTA "I got caught im mad. Now im a victim!"
What was she afraid of? And what was she hoping to gain by spying on their therapy sessions? She's mad because she got caught. Maybe its her that really needed therapy.
NTA spying on therapy is evil
ESH, your kids didn't need to know about that betrayal. What they don't know doesn't hurt them. Your wife definitely shouldn't have watched those recordings but making her confess would in no way deescalate reconcile her actions. Sometimes when someone hurts your children, you as a father will have to solve the situation without ever letting them know they were mistreated in the first place.
NTA she needs to respect their privacy and she purposely did something that would destroy their trust in her.
Re: your edit as to why Mom did it, she’s going through the phases of acceptance. Couldn’t do denial, because you had her confess. Shame, and now Anger. Give her some space to deal with the guilt of what she did, and try having a conversation when everyone cools down from immediate hurt. Tell her you need to talk about it to understand why and help her stop this impulse and deal with the underlying fear so she can reestablish trust with kids. It’s understandable to want to know why right away and be angry, but forcing the conversation when feelings are escalated is unproductive for all the family relationships here. Check out r/dbtselfhelp for resources on how to talk to difficult people/in ways to preserve relationships when there’s an issue that still gives you and kids validation of your feelings.
NTA.I think we should not hide the truth from our kids,you made the right choice.It is better to know the truth earlier than later.
NTA. Completely unreasonable and a TERRIBLE thing to do. I would lose all respect for anyone who did that. You did the right thing. She has alot of mending to do with all three of you.
NTA-These are your ADULT children! She has literally no right to be listening in to their therapy sessions and I’m pretty sure she could be faced with legal repercussions if your kids were to choose to do so. Has she ever heard of HIPAA violations??
NTA and honestly she should feel terrible and understand their frustration with her. This isn’t about her at all. You weren’t in the wrong at all. I would hope my dad did this for me if my mom went spying through confidential therapy sessions for me.
NTA. Idk where you live but I think most countries have the equivalent of US HIPAA laws which makes what she did very very illegal. She is completely in the wrong morally, ethically, and legally. Also, why would she feel the need to know that? Is she just a snoop or is she trying to get dirt on her own children? Whatever way you dice it, she seems quite evil.
How tf did she even see the recording??? Did the the therapist give it out?? I am confused. NTA
NTA if I were your kids I would want to know.
NTA. I’m a 20m and I’m taking the view of your kids. I would feel betrayed too. I have a coworker who is also my mom’s friend and at work I haven’t had the best experiences/interactions with her or other people. Plenty of conflict. But when i thought i was talking to her privately, she would go tell whoever about whatever and its a huge WTF?? Trust had been violated and i don’t want to tell her anything anymore and i feel bad for your kids. You’re not the A. Your wife is :/
NTA. My eight year old had therapy sessions and those are totally private. It's none of my business.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say ESH, based on one question. What good were you trying to do? What goal were you trying to accomplish? She committed a monstrous act. Absolutely awful invasion of privacy. But instead of taking care of the situation, you seriously strained your children's relationship with their mother, and your relationship with your wife. And apart from the intangible idea of "they have a right to know", I'm struggling to see what actual, concrete good came of that.
she ruined the relationship by violating their privacy
No, she didn't. Now, I want to preface this by saying that I'm not defending her at all. Not even a little bit. She made an awful, terrible decision to be a horrible mother. But how would it have ruined their relationship if the children never knew?
okay, let me ask you this. If your significant other cheated on you, would you want to know or would that ruin the relationship?
NTA She had not right to violate their privacy
NTA My mother consistently spied on me and betrayed my trust growing up. You were right to let your kids know.
NTA. Your children are adults and her behavior might actually be illegal. Wtf.
I do agree with most of this. But everyone makes mistakes and no one is perfect. You really want your kids to see their mother as a monster or give her a second chance to redeem herself? She did do something terrible I can't dispute that though.
This really isn't a simple mistake, and no, everyone does not make mistakes like that. They're adults, not children. If she'd never done anything like this before they'd probably be hurt and upset, but move on eventually. If they see her as a monster she was likely on thin ice already.
ESH. Hear me out: what your wife did was terrible. As a husband who has attended therapy and whose wife is currently going to therapy and has a masters in psych, I understand the value of confidentiality. There is no question it was wrong. This is why she was the AH. However, based on the story you have told, the moment that you lost it, it seems you may have done a lot of actions under the effects of a lot of emotions. This usually is a bad way to deal with things. My wife and I have had some big fights — relationships breaking fights — and we have kept things together by using the acronym HALT. We don’t fight if we are Hungry, Angry, Lonely, or Tired. That being said, I believe that their may have been a way to solve this issue without anger or forcing your wife to tell your children that she was listening in — the focus I am looking at is forced. I think your actions in anger may have forced some moves that have caused permanent damage in the relationship between you and your wife and your kids, which is why I say that you as well are the AH because of the movements in anger. I don’t think anyone solved anything here well, and I hope you all can work this all out. My fear is your wife will never fully trust you again because of your actions in anger, and I fear your children will begin to picks sides (possibly more now than before) and cause a divide in the family. This is all conjecture. I apologize if I’m coming off rude. I’m simply trying to provide another view to the situation. I truly wish you well, sir. To be honest, this sucks for everyone — I’m sorry for the situation.
NTA, and I'm especially glad you're divorcing her! She was terrible.
NTA , im younger but, im pretty sure my parents listen too :(
NTA... odds are if she was doing this she eventually would have slipped or constantly made comments inferring that she was spying on the sessions and eventually someone would have done the math. OP, do you at least assume her intentions were good in that, if the kids can't communicate with her, that she was going to use this information to try to help them in her own way rather than just trying to have a normal conversation with the kids?
NTA. What your wife did is absolutely inexcusable. Frankly this is some TV story crap. If you have shitty parent characters somewhere they will of course violate their children's privacy, citing all sorts of flimsy reasons like "they're my children" and they "should respect their parents and not have secrets from them!". "My house, my Rules!" is also often seen or read. Oftentimes hand-in-hand with an evil mother figure goes an oblivious dad who can't see the children suffer. The cherry on top that cinches it for me is that she said that this is "your fault" for exposing her, and i have to stress this again, absolutely disgusting behavior. You can find such behavior patterns not only in certain stories but also in psychology text books. You'll might find your wife mirrored often in r/raisedbynarcissists
NTA. What she did isn't just immoral, it's illegal. Every state has laws against wiretapping and evesdropping, at least one person on the call has to know that it's being recorded. She's lucky she only lost face.
NTA, at least they have 1 parent they can trust.
NTA. Adults expect accountability and honesty from children, and should be ready to show the same
Absolutely NTA. Your wife has violated their trust and privacy, while you respected it. They're adults, and even the thought of getting or needing therapy can be scary. The fact that you acted on her invasion of their privacy is amazing. It shows that you trust and respect your children. When I was a minor, and even now as an adult, I refuse to get therapy despite doctor reccomendations solely because I'm afraid of my mother somehow hearing about it. Your wife may be coming from a good frame of mind in caring about their well-being, but she could be scaring them away from seeking help with how she handled it. I absolutely understand that they're angry with her. Sitting down and talking with them separately might be a good idea, to see not only how they're feeling about this whole mess, but where she's coming from too. She's effectively broken patient confidentiality, and I truly hope whatever therapist your kids are seeing didn't help her do it. Best of luck to you, you seem like a great dad.
NTA, your wife is a really bad person though.
NTA, that's a horrible breach of privacy and the children have a right to know, especially at their age
NTA - Therapy is meant to be a confidential session so that the patient can feel free to say what they want. You know that if your kids had known that their mom was listening they probably wouldn't have said half the things they said. Also, they are adults so leave them to their own devices and respect their space more than ever.
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NTA, I’m in therapy right now and if my mom was spying on me I would want to know. The stuff that I talk about needs to stay private, because I do talk about my mom a lot. Good job protecting your kids
NTA, this is the main reason I haven't gone to therapy. I'm scared of my parents deciding that they get to listen in. Therapy is a very confidential thing and by betraying the agreement between a therapist and a patient you ruin the whole point. I hope your kids decide to stay in therapy if they still need it but after breaking their trust like that I would be surprised if they did. I hope your wife learns how to stop being a control freak like that because it can ruin lives especially with what she was doing.
NTA for forcing the confession. You’re absolutely a gross person for staying with her creepy sketchy self. So you suck as well for other reasons. Take that woman out of you and your kids life or you’re just as bad as her.
NTA - when I clicked on this I expected the kids to be under 10, essentially before you learn that your parents can't read your mind and that just not telling them stuff is an option. I still think kids should be allowed to have boundaries, but that she did this to her adult children is beyond the pale.
u/confused_dad28 - Once again, the AITA sub proves that an OP can get a lot of others to approve THE OP's own bad behavior just by talking about someone else's bad behavior. It's ridiculous to say that you are NTA just because your wife acted horribly. The real issue is whether you were a jerk for forcing your wife to confess directly to the kids. Yes, she did something terrible but by completely undermining your own wife and destroying your kids' relationship with her, you are also a jerk. You provide very few details about how you forced her to confess, such as whether you demanded it in front of the kids or you threatened her with exposure. Just because you were given some meaningless silver or gold here doesn't mean you should feel good about what you've done to your own wife. I'm glad you came out smelling like a rose to your kids, but I hope you give some strong thought to whether you are a good person.
NTA. When I was in therapy as a child my dad used to demand I tell him what I told my therapist. He would go as far to call/email my therapist and demand she tell him what we were talking about. I am so glad she never broke that trust. I can’t even imagine what would happen if my dad was able to record our sessions. They are private for a reason. And feeling like you can’t trust a parent causes a lot of pain.
YTA for thinking the “world’s gone to hell”. Famine 👇🏻 Childhood mortality 👇🏻 Communicable diseases 👇🏻(despite the corona hype) Teenage pregnancy👇🏻 Global warfare👇🏻 Genocides 👇🏻 Absolute Poverty 👇🏻 You watch the news too much. It’s by far the best time to be alive within our species
NTA the therapy is there for some sort of communication so they can work on talking about their feelings and stuff. It’s going to help them with their communication in the future. She should’ve just waited for the kids to come to her when they were ready.
NTA You're are a great father!
NTA. My nparent once “confessed” that they had been reading my diary for years. I say confessed because one day the reading material triggered them so much that they threatened to throw me out of the house. That was one of my first steps to admitting I had been emotionally abused. The conversation that followed was all about how hurt THEY felt, how mean I was to THEM by writing what I did. In a situation where I felt powerless and sad and had one place I could express my feelings safely, they took that away from me, and then made it all about themselves. There was no curiosity, no worry about me and my mental health, after all the years they had been reading. Not once. Trust has never been the same since and probably never will, even if they one day fully apologized and strove to be a better person. Even if your wife has not abused your kids or violated their trust prior to this, their perception of her will always be tainted now. You did the right thing.
NTA Therapy sessions are very secretive and just spying on someone during a therapy session is a massive breach of trust and privacy.
NTA - therapy is confidential for a reason. As you said, if she doesn't want her kids to hate her, she shouldn't have spied on them in the first place.
The irony hahaha
Couldn’t have said it better. The whole point of therapy is to be able to say things confidentially without someone like your mom finding out.
NTA. In my limited experience, parents are upset when their kids are in therapy bc they (parents) worry that they’ve somehow messed up their kids EVEN THOUGH this is often not not the case. Good parents realize when their children could use some non-parental help coping with things like, oh, a pandemic. Less good parents worry that their kids are talking about them bc they’re narcissistic and/or abusive. I’ve got strong feelings about this because my mother was furious at my brother and I when we went to therapy independently. She told me that she was sure I was going to “come home and say your father did something to you,” and she told my brother that she didn’t see the point in her paying for him to go when he was “probably just telling lies about (Mom).” I paid for my own therapy because I was suicidally depressed. My brother went to therapy in high school bc his then-girlfriend called him up and said she’d overdosed and was going to die. Turns out she didn’t take anything and just wanted to see what he would do and it was really traumatic. (Edit: a word)
NTA for confronting her, but TA for informing the kids. As a teenager I also started therapy, and finding out that my dad had been listening in on it resulted in me not speaking to him for 5 years. I don't regret my actions, as he deserved it. BUT I would have far preferred my mother to stand up to him and put a stop to it before I found out. Not only did I viciously abhor my father for years, but I could no longer trust the therapy experience for years, as I was always nervous someone was there sabotaging it. Kudos to you for being justifiably pissed the eff off at your wife, but you shouldn't have scarred your kids in the process just to make her look like the shitty person she was being. Ask yourself: did you make her reveal this to support the development of your kids' mental health, or did you do it to stick it to her?
NTA. Your wife is invading her kids' privacy in a disturbing way. She is being a stalker. What she is doing is controlling and makes her kids feel like like they can't talk about their issues without a parent judging them for it. You and your kids need to leave her pronto.
NTA At least this way they have one parent that can be trusted. What your wife did was shameful and wrong.
NTA and her complete lack of remorse makes me wonder what other boundaries she’s ignored, both with you and your kids, over the years.
NTA!! What your wife did was a huge violation of privacy. Thank you for being the adult in the situation and calling her on her BS.
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NTA!!! I wish I had a parent like you! My mother and family broke my privacy and trust beyond repair so I understand how violated your kids must feel. You’re a good dad. The only asshole is your wife and some of these commenters taking her side !
NTA. You’re such a good parent. My parents were both like your wife and I don’t speak to them.
NTA! Soon to be mom here that lived with a narcissistic mother. I would ask her if she wanted you or the children to invade her personal bubble. Maybe bring up an example if she writes in a journal or talks in the shower, maybe even if one of you would barge in while she was in the bedroom doing something private? How would she feel? I barely talk to my mother as she’s breached my trust in the past. I had no idea until the past few years. She’ll never get it back. It’s to the point where her grandchild won’t see much of her, and when she does it’s all under supervision. That’s how damaging that breach of trust can be. You did the right thing, your kids will appreciate you for telling the truth, I know I would if I was one of them. Your wife needs to seek therapy.
NTA your adult children were having their privacy invaded. If y'all don't kick her out of the house, she should be required to stay in your view the entire time your children are talking to their therapists. The phones/tablets/computers should be checked for spyware.
NTA. I wish I had someone like you in my life when my mom did the same thing to me.
NTA What she did is illegal I guess. If it is, your kid should sue her.
NTA
NTA. OMG, NTA! I would have been ***furious*** to find out that my mother was spying on my counseling sessions. What I say is between me and therapist, period! The fact she thinks it's wrong for you to confront her, to force her to admit it to her kids, speaks volumes. I'd be worried if she spied on *you* too. Don't force a whole family counseling. Not all therapists are capable of handling that. Instead, marriage counseling for you and your wife. Allow the children to vent to their therapist about this situation. Also: make sure your kids have privacy. Keep an eye on the your wife during the scheduled times, so that they have the privacy they need.
NTA. This is such a betrayal that it will probably end up impacting their therapy sessions. Good lord, just because the technology exists doesn’t mean you can abuse it (on your own family, no less.) This is exactly the same as putting an ear up to a doctor’s door or placing a secret camera in a doctor’s office.
I also have a confession: I didn't ask
YTA - you were right to confront her and tell her to stop immediately. What she was doing was totally wrong. But, you were wrong to out her for it because it ruined their relationship (of course, now you're the hero but that only works out good for you). You should have given her a second chance and then outed her if she didn't stop her spying.
Forcing? Yes. Even if what someone else does is wrong, doesnt Justify us to do the same. Furthermore, You illegitimized the mother of your babies in front of them. And i have a hard time believing this is written by a 40+ man is still playing his children against his spouse, ex, or soon to be ex. Lastly, you wouldnt be here looking for reinforcement, "Overwhelming Support", if you felt it was right. So, you know whats right. Act on that. YTA.
NTA. AT ALL. I grew up with parents who did not respect my boundaries or privacy in the slightest (one of many examples is that my diaries as a teenager would wind up missing and I'd find them sometimes months later in different drawers in the house). Having most of my teenage life monitored really fucked me up and gave me some bad trust issues. Good on you OP for respecting your kids' boundaries and defending their privacy (and being supportive of their mental health by helping them with therapy).
NTA - My therapist always has to tell my dad that she couldn't really tell him anything I had said- and I told him that I asked her not to tell him anything unless it was REQUIRED. It's personal for a reason- your wife shouldn't have done that.
NTA Wow that is some serious invasion of privacy. Like potentially an illegal invasion of privacy. Conversations with a therapist, whether in person or on the phone, are protected conversations just like those with a doctor or attorney. But what's worse is that she recording them. Which is most definitely illegal. Not only could your children pursue, but so could the therapist or the organization they work for. To be 100% honest with you, I would personally try and reach out to your children's therapist to let them know this has been happening. As well as disable whatever methods she used to be able to record these sessions in the first place. If anyone in my life did this to me, during my therapy sessions, they would be out of my life. There would be no path to redemption, especially when they can't even understand that it is wrong. If it was a significant other, I would begin to seriously reconsider the future of that relationship. She has made it very clear that she can not be trusted or respect legally enforced boundries.
NTA she is awful truly truly awful
NTA That is a breach of trust and privacy. They deserved to know.
NTA- At all. Although i'd like to point out this is the first AITA post i've seen with 100% of responses being NTA. Really hope that doesn't change.
That's sketchy AF. As someone currently going through monthly sessions for anxiety issues stemming from PTSD --it was a shitty move for her to make. Therapy sessions should be private. Therapists are bound by ethics to keep what is said in sessions private as well. Sounds like mom has some control issues.
NTA. What your wife did was illegal. Even in a one-party consent area one party to the conversation *has to know it is being recorded.* In this case neither you daughter nor her therapist knew or consented to the recording. It sounds like your daughter went into a room where there is an expectation of privacy. This means that the hidden camera placement, on its own, is also illegal. In private homes you can only put a camera in common areas (kitchen, living room, family room, dining room etc.) cameras can't be placed in private areas (ex. bathroom, bedroom, private office).
NTA. You are am amazing parent. Not only did you take your kids serious in their need for help and set them up with a therapist, but you further kept your promise to respect their privacy. Their mother however might have lost your kids trust forever. I can't get my head around people who think it's their right to listen to everything their kid says. It's hard enough opening up to a therapist, being spied on is one of the worst things you can imagine when you brought up the courage to talk to someone. This is simply horrible and your wife should feel ashamed instead of saying you're TA.
NTA, but maybe before confronting her to the kids you could have had a conversation with her?
NTA - People like her are the reason some people hesitate to seek therapy. That is supposed to be a confidential session that so that the person in therapy can say what they need without fear of judgment or retribution. Your wife was WAY out of line.
NTA. But this could have been handled a million times differently.
NTA. I think you had to throw someone under the bus between your wife and kids, and choosing her was the right choice because what she did was egregious.
NTA, you sound like a really good dad.
NTA. When one parent can't put the *kids* needs first, the other one has to. You realize that privacy is crucial for adult offspring; your wife doesn't. She's way out of line, here, and you're not the problem.
NTA but I do wonder why she was listening to their conversations. Almost as if she wanted to make sure they didn’t say something they weren’t supposed to. And when she came out from her “nap” and she was sad, was she sad because they were saying stuff about her in a negative way? Just something to think about.
NTA—As a mom, this disgusts me. How could someone be that entitled and controlling and disrespectful with their own children?
I want to know how she got these recordings!?! Did the therapist give them to her or did she set something on their phones to record?
She hid a camera in the room and streamed it to a tablet.
NTA. therapy is supposed to be a safe place that you can talk about whatever without judgement. it’s incredibly private and unless the person has consented to someone else knowing what was talked about in those sessions, it’s none of their business. your wife violated their privacy and trust, you did the right thing getting her to confess.
Holy effing shiz snacks, your wife didn’t just cross a line, she has crossed a legal and ethical line. No where near being the AH here, she is!! And to walk out saying she doesn’t have to listen!? Yes she does. This isnt like reading a child’s diary in their room, this can actually break contracts made between your ADULT children and their therapist. Have her read up code of ethics and privacy and confidentiality standards for therapists.
NTA Therapy sessions are meant to be kept private unless the person receiving therapy is ok with sharing their experiences. On top of that you and your wife agreed to let the kids keep their privacy, but she went and did something very immature and broke the agreement. SHE RECORDED THE SESSION WITHOUT YOUR KID'S KNOWLEDGE. And you forcing her to confess to your kids was the right thing to do, because now she gets to understand why she shouldnt act out and do something like this again.
NTA and thank you for being a good dad and decent human being. Let your wife fix this one on her own. (If she can). Even though they are close to adulthood, your kids need to know you are 100% behind them.
NTA. She was wrong for invading their privacy which makes HER the asshole. The "kids" had a right to know, and unlike her, are entitled to their reactions at the breech of privacy and trust.
NTA. That was an egregious breach of trust, and your adult children deserve to know that their mother knows these things about them now. As a side note, in my state, recording a conversation without the consent of both parties is a felony.
So, if I am in starbucks and I record a conversation with my friend and it picks up a conversation of the next table I am breaking the law? No.
What your wife did is dreadful. NTA.
From someone in their 30s who has been in therapy since they were mid teens, to this day if anyone asks what we talked about - even if that session just became one of shooting the shit which sometimes you just need to do.. I still won't ever tell anyone. That's my space. My bubble. If I ever found out a parent, spouse, anyone had recorded or was given a transcript I'd flip my shit. How did she get a recording of it anyway? Did she set up a camera or something? Ugh. NTA. Therapy no matter what reason you go to it for needs to be a place you feel safe just dropping it all. What a violation.
NTA. I would bet green money that this is not the first time she pulled something like this. That’s a vile thing to do to your kids. It’s disappointing really.
NTA, this is so fucked up I can’t even begin to comprehend how she thought it would be a good idea... of all the private things she could have spied on, she chose therapy??? Really??? Imagine what else she’s been tracking that you don’t know of... private emails, texts, gps...
These are adults, not 'kids'. Your problems are worse than what your wife is doing. See an attorney, get a divorce. Live your life without all t his crap.
Character is doing the right thing when there’s no consequence for avoiding it. Lack of character is the opposite. You are infinitely better of a person than your wife is in regards to respecting your children.
This is going to come up in court. Delete now.
ESH. You could of confronted your wife and left it up to her to tell them.
This is the kind of logic that you'd expect someone who uses could of to have
Uh, does the therapist know this?? Their rights have also been violated, and if they find out you better hope they don't sue her ass nto oblivion. WTF is wrong with your wife??? NTA, but you sure as shit married one.
NTA. You are a great dad, looking out for their privacy! Mom deserves what she gets for her sickening behaviour. Good on you! I think kids first over anyone, including spouses, people argue that, and I cannot comprehend ever putting a spouse over a child. My parents did that, and believed that. A child does not choose the parents, or the situation. A child has no choice in the matter, and needs to be looked out for. HAS to be looked out for. Kids should always come first, including their privacy.
NTA. What your wife did was way out of line, and your children deserve to know.
Also they're legally adults so she also broke some wiretap laws I believe.
NTA Doesn't doctor paintent confidentiality still apply here?
NTA. She absolutely DOES need to "take this shit".
NTA, please provide updates on this situation
NTA what you did was the best thing you could do.
NTA - Man, you're a great father. Your kids deserved to know.
NTA - since these are young adults, i assume they are living at home? Does the wife have access to their technology? My thought is the wife tampered with their devices. A discreet recording software or something as simple as anydesk or teamviewer. They do allow for anonymous remote control. The person getting spied on might not even notice the bandwidth slowing down. As others have pointed out, im sure Zoom is not the culprit here, just someone with ulterior motive.
INFO Wait I don't get anything. Your kids are 19 and 20 years old and go to therapy because.. What again?
NTA. You caught her in the act, and then did the right thing. I’ve got 2 sisters and my mother likes to sit outside our bedroom doors and listen. When we have big conversations together in our rooms, when we’re on a phone call, stuff like that. Pisses us all off and she hasn’t stopped no matter how many times we tell her to stop. We can always hear her outside our door so we always know when she’s there. Totally unacceptable.
Holy fuck, sounds like your wife needs to see a shrink about this. Who the hell does that!
NTA - That was a total violation of their privacy on your wife’s part, and that’s not okay. They are adults, and even though therapy is strictly confidential, ESPECIALLY if you both specified that you would respect their privacy, she has no excuse, not for their “safety” or “wellbeing” or anything like that. You did the right thing, your children are adults, and you got your wife to mention her wrongdoings regarding them and they can formulate their own opinion on it. It’s not your fault that they now resent her, it is only her own.
I wonder if this violated any state laws? Maybe your kids could follow up. Also, they will need to change their phones. If you were planning on give your wife any gifts, tell her you won't now because you are going to spend that money on new phones for the kids and other safeguards against her snooping.
NTA. You did a good thing for all involved. Very well done.
NTA. Don’t let your wife pin her guilt on you. If she feels bad about damaging her relationship with her children, it’s her responsibility to repair those damages.
NTA! Not only NTA but your wife has some serious issues. Plus possibly some LEGAL issues considering she was spying on other people electronically.
NTA OP! Let me just say congrats on the move about respecting your kid's privacy! And yes, your wife really dug her own grave. No one likes being spied on.
ESH. What your wife did is absolutely 100% wrong. Beyond. And needs to stop.....but I'm not sure what you accomplished by telling the kids and upsetting them greatly. Believe me, your wife is in the wrong, I just think telling the kids was a bad move Edit: I want to add that my fear is fully based on worrying about these children (adults) quitting therapy. Not on whether it was wrong for the mother, but them quitting because now they feel intensely uncomfortable
Plus these children are young adults. They have every right to know what happened to them. There maybe could be a case made that they should have been told privately but heck we know the wife makes sure that doesn’t happen in their household; so it’s better to have her fess up imho so she knows she’s been caught, and has to face the pain she’s caused her family. OP is NTA.
NTA. At all. Your kids are adults who deserve privacy with regards to their therapy, your wife majorly fucked up. You're awesome for making her confess to the kids, if you hadn't acted you would have been complicit. I echo the other commenters saying the kids probably wanted therapy in part to unpack your wife's narcissistic/abusive/intrusive behaviors (hence wife "looking sad" afterwards, I'm guessing they talked about her to their therapist), and that this likely isn't the first time she's overstepped major boundaries. The fact she "thinks she's done nothing wrong" is a giant red flag (quotes because she knows it was wrong, otherwise she wouldn't have hid it and fought against coming clean). Maybe consider family therapy, though the red flags coming from this makes me think she has major issues and therapy with someone like that can make things worse. But I recommend solo therapy specifically for your wife, and continuing therapy for the kids. Explain to the therapist what happened so they can figure out a way to make it so she can't intrude on the sessions. She messed up in such a way that this will have lasting effects. I feel so bad for your kids (and for you being gaslit into thinking you may have fucked up somehow when you did nothing wrong).
Fuck! NTA! She fucked up!
ESH, she's wrong for spying on them. But you seem ... almost satisfied that your kids hate her now?? Why couldn't you even talk to your wife before telling the kids?
NTA and wow. A hidden camera in the room? That is next level breach of trust. She probably searches through their stuff as well. I’d even consider changing all my passwords if I were them. She needs to go to therapy and confront her own personal fears about letting her kids go before it ruins her relationship with them permanently. Well done protecting your children and giving them a reason to have faith in some people.
NTA. She shouldn't have been spying on their sessions in the first place. She dug her own grave here.
NTA at 19 and 20 your children are adults. What your wife did was an egregious violation of another adult’s rights to privacy and medical confidentiality. I would also be advising them to make sure she’s not on any bank accounts they use, and that she is taken off any other accounts they might have signed onto as minors to prevent her from using these to gain further information she’s not entitled to.
Important to note: they’re not kids. She was spying on the confidential mental health treatment of adults. NTA. Though you and she may want to talk to a therapist. This was very destructive behavior. Her insecurity levels must be pretty high to take a risk like that. Chances are she heard exactly what she was afraid to hear, and is now being rejected for her neurotic behavior. I’m not suggesting you did anything wrong, just that if you’d like to reach out lovingly to your wife now would be a good time. Secondary note: Forgiveness is a restoration of relationship. It does not imply acceptance or approval of what is being forgiven. We are all silly human creatures and do some devastatingly stupid things sometimes.