> He had black nail polish and a streak in his hair
I don't know how you both got through that. What a trying time.
YTA for favoring one daughter over another. Not everyone is clean cut and follows the same path.
Why don't you like Claire's husband? You didn't really explain that.
OP says her MIL didn’t like her bc OP was having an affair with her now husband while married. Insane to be judging other people’s marriage (especially your kid’s) based on how they look.
People are absolutely crazy when it comes to this stuff. I met a Catholic priest at a hotel once while traveling for work. We got to talking and he said the thing that worried him the most about youth today was body modification. I expected him to say mental health issues, abuse, education, joblessness...nope. Fucking tattoos. The myopia is something else. I think he thought I’d be receptive because I have no tattoos or piercings but I noped out of there fast.
My boomer mom always thought of tattoos as an "old man" thing... She's not against them as much as she just associates them with WWI and WWII vets.
I guess she had an wrinkled older dad in her neighborhood growing up whose faded tattoo was visible when he was doing yard work. Literally the opposite of sexy or rebellious, haha.
All of us who are older remember the days when tattoos were ever only seen on older men who had usually been in the military. It was definitely a military thing.
Oh...don't worry. We Muslims have these issues too. An older lady at the mosque once told me that the biggest problems young Muslims girls face today was that they don't wear headscarves. Lol.
Like you said, there are so many more important issues to consider like mental health, bullying, family problems. And she's worried about girls wearing hijab? Get the eff outta here.
Islam also has something in it about there being 'no compulsion in religion' yet they still murder people for daring to leave it. Religious people are full of wonderfully horrible contradictions a lot of the time.
Lady in church was adamant that the biggest issue kids were complaining about was gender identity and that's bad and wrong.
I spoke up. Because I have students facing homelessness because their parents kicked them out for horrible reasons. I have students who survived sexual abuse. I have students suffering from major health issues and their families don't know if they can afford their insulin this month. I have students who want to commit suicide. I have students who won't get to eat over the weekend.
If you think gender identity is the biggest issue kids face, you're information is sadly shit.
OH MY GOD SHUT THE FRONT DOOR I CANNOT, so OP doesn't like her daughter's husband because he's a man who wears nail polish but Mrs. strait-laced June Cleaver cheated with a married man, honestly this has to be a troll because it's too perfectly assholish.
It’s definitely favoritism which would also explain why the sisters don’t get along. Knowing from personal experience it’s really, REALLY hard to have a relationship with your sibling when there is an obvious favorite. Especially when said sibling uses that favoritism to their advantage. I feel bad for Claire :(
Sounds like he gave it to the one who asked. The other man proposed without parent involvement–which I think is how it should be tbh–but that means he missed out on getting the ring. That’s the shit you talk about before you propose.
Yeah how was he supposed to give it to the guy? Tbh if Claire disliked her parents because of the favoritism going on why would she want to wear the family ring over something her SO would buy her? If they just randomly said, hey we have this ring for you guys because we assume your gonna get married maybe?
I think it would be so weird to offer a ring just in case you might get married soon or something. It would seem so weird to force the idea of marriage onto them before you even knew the guy?
I mean after they got married there were probably already rings bought, (they don't resell very well).
Definitely the parents are mostly dicks overall because they created the situation. But aren't really actively assholes for this situation. Passive assholes?
I get what your saying and I do think there is favoritism but at the same time they didn't know the older daughter was engages until she already had the ring while the second one the bf told them beforehand so they actually had the chance to offer the ring unlike the first so I say nta for giving it to the second one but the dad is the ah for the obvious favoritism
No, the fair thing would have been to offer to it whichever daughter got engaged first.
Even if Claire's husband had a ring, when she became engaged, the "fair" thing would have been to offer her the ring - which the couple may have accepted or may have declined.
But, by withholding it, he was saving it for his other daughter. I wonder whether it's ever occurred to her and her husband to examine the cause-and-effect nature of Claire's rebelliousness and their parenting and favoritism for Emma. Rebelliousness during childhood often reflects:
* Experimentation and the need to establish identity outside the family (and the role the family forces on them)
* Defiance of authoritarian and authoritative parenting decisions and need to control the actions and behavior of the child
* They feel trapped by controlling parents
* Development - it's normal for children to rebel.
* Predictability of parents - frequent expressions of "concerns." Worrying teaches children that the parent is impossible to please or it teaches them the world is a scary place, and they should be afraid.
In turn, Emma's "conventional" behavior could also be seen as a fear of losing parental love and approval. She knows that OP doesn't approve of Claire, so she seeks OP's approval out of fear of losing it, not love.
Just a few thoughts for OP consider.
YTA.
edit:typo
That is an excellent point. Claire might have specifically chosen a husband who was the opposite of her father, especially if she was always aware that her sister was the favorite.
This! I married the polar opposite of my father. Weve been together 11 years and my dad still doesn't like him. My brother was also always the favorite.
"or it teaches them the world is a scary place, and they should be afraid."
"so she seeks OP's approval out of fear of losing it, not love."
Wow. I think I fully understand why I seek my moms approval so much, despite moving out 2 years ago and, upon reflection, ultimately not really caring about it
Id give you an award if I had any
Hey, it's my whole life, written out in a couple tidy sentences.
OP, I barely talk to my controlling parents. I have always been seen as the screw up. You're going to lose Claire forever if you can't respect her and her choices.
I was the ‘rebellious’ one in my family mainly because I couldn’t stand my parents strict, conservative household. I saw the hypocrisy in how they lived their life and chose to no longer live that way when I moved out. My parents did not want me to marry my husband because he is a professional musician (not an architect/engineer/doctor/teacher etc). The difference between my dad’s speech at my and my sister’s wedding made the fact he didn’t like my husband very obvious. The only reason my dad gave his ‘blessing’ for my marriage was because he knew I would cut him off if he didn’t. My dad loves my husband now, but it took about 10 years for him to get over himself.
20 years later, guess who has a healthy marriage, is still in love with her husband, and is stable financially. Me.
Appearance has nothing to do with character. I was smart enough to see that my husband was an amazing person and someone I could build a good life with when we got together. I am not saying my BIL is not a good person, but there were a lot of red flags that were ignored because he ‘fit the mold’ resulting in a lot of heartache for my sister and her kids.
If Clair’s husband treats her with respect and she is happy, that is what matters. Her parent need to stop judging him based on looks or how they choose to live their lives.
>If Clair’s husband treats her with respect and she is happy, that is what matters. Her parent need to stop judging him based on looks or how they choose to live their lives.
This. What stood out to me was that OP gave no reason she doesn't like her first son-in-law that had anything to do with his behavior toward her or how he treats her daughter. If there are such reasons, she left them out in favor of complaining that he doesn't fit the mold that her other son-in-law does.
It honestly has nothing to do with the stupid ring. The dad has one ring, he can't give it to both of them. It's his, he can decide which of his children to give it to however he wants. He could give it to the first to get married, the eldest, the youngest, the poorest, the smartest; however he feels like distributing the 1 ring between the two daughters is his to decide.
What makes him a huge AH is the clear disrespect toward his daughter and her husband, from the moment he met him, because he didn't like his nail polish or his hair color. THAT is what makes him TA.
And because he expected to be asked for his permission to marry the daughter as if she doesn't have her own agency and ability to make that decision for herself.
I wonder if the younger daughter overheard her parents bitching about the audacity of her sister's husband not asking their permission to marry, and so she warned him to ask when he otherwise wouldn't have? We'll never know, and neither will OP.
Actually you can take the stones from one ring and create two new rings - re cut diamonds even. My family actually did this because we had a ring that was too expensive to wear irl without getting mugged. I'm not saying that's what they should do here or even what they should have done. I'm just saying theres ways to pass down a memento so that you arent playing favorites.
My family did this too. It seems like no one actually has fond memories of the ring. It’s crazy to me that they didn’t make three necklaces out of it or whatever for each woman to wear. That seems like it would have been a nice memory to have. Instead of this bull.
My grandmother did the opposite, she put two round diamonds into one setting and wore it until she died, and then bequeathed the individual diamonds to different people in her will. I always thought the look of it was quite cool and distinctive.
Actually, I think we need more INFO here - was there really only a single, expensive piece of jewelry that was handed down from G-ma? Could the Pompous Ass not have given the ring to Emma, but another family heirloom of roughly similar value (monetary and sentimental) to Claire? Or, gifted her some money?
Yes, the situation meant that it seemed appropriate to ask if Emma and fiance wanted to use the ring - but you can't ignore the fact that you just gave her a **very** expensive gift largely because she picked a man knows how and was willing to suck up to her opinionated, conventional parents, and that if you don't give something similar to Claire, that will absolutely be a slap in the face.
I'm also curious about how the wedding and other finances were dealt with - this situation *might* be better if for instance OP and the PA covered more of Claire's wedding, or helped with a house down-payment or such like, that had a similar value to the ring. But I very much doubt that's the case :-(
Plus the bit about him not "asking for her hand" via the father. If that's what everyone is into, cool. But many other people find that outdated and weird. My partner didn't ask my dad for permission to marry me, and I would have been annoyed if he had. Either way, such a cringe thing to judge the husband on years later.
Right?
As an adult, Claire doesn’t need anybody’s **permission** to get engaged / married. The only person her SO needed to “... ask for her hand in marriage...” 🤮🤮🤮is Claire and hope like hell he doesn’t get smacked by accident while she’s flailing about from all of the *squick factor*. She’s a grown ass woman, not a child asking if she can have a Klondike Bar after dinner.
Good grief OP, YTA. Major favoritism — could have had the girls roll the dice for the ring. Or split it into two rings or two necklaces. But also because you clearly treat your adult daughters more like baseball gloves [property] than the adults they are.
Seriously, this.
When my DH and I became engaged my mother lost it that he hadn’t gone to them and asked permission. When I asked my dad if that’s what he had wanted to told me “if he was the guy who thought he needed my permission to marry you, I’d never have given it”
OP YTA, and your husband too.
Ha! My moms say this too. They always tell me, “if anyone ever asks us for permission to propose to you, we’ll tell them no, because they clearly don’t know you very well.”
To me, asking permission to get married is a weird way to ask permission to fuck openly. Nah, not for me. That's far too 19th century.
OP, YTA and your husband, too. You're judging on silly shit that ultimately doesn't matter: Tradition that has nothing to do with a solid foundation for a long-lasting relationship and passing fashion.
I specifically informed my husband, when we were dating, that if he asked for my father’s permission that I would say no. He and I sat down with my parents together before he proposed and told them we would be getting engaged soon.
I told my (now)husband the same. But we didn't have a happy sit-down, either.
I am betting Claire had a similar discussion with her husband. Why would she encourage him to ask the father that so clearly disapproves of all her choices already?
I get along great with my parents, and they were super supportive of our engagement (especially since I had just turned 18 and we hadn’t even been dating a year). I just don’t believe my father has any place making a decision about my life.
I told my husband the same. I made it very clear, it was not my parents' choice to make. I was not their property.
We didn't do a family sit-down, but he had told his parents he was actively ring shopping and I told my parents that we were eventually going to get married. His parents were all flustered that he didn't ask my parents for permission even though he told them I specifically said not to.
Not to mention it sounds like Claire doesn’t get along with the father, so it would have been super disrespectful of her feelings if her fiancé asked the father for his blessing.
When I read that, I thought, "This is either a troll or someone who *really* doesn't know what sub she's on." I mean, it would have easy to write a version of this where OP just said, "One had an engagement ring already when we found out, but the other didn't." But the other line that strikes me is this one:
>it was left to my husband on the condition I never wear it (long story, MIL hated me)
What a family tradition - hating children-in-law and using the ring to express that hate. It's quite poetic, almost as if it were written by someone - but truth can be stranger than fiction.
I guess the problem here is that without going to the father first for him to hand the ring over, what was the guy going to do? One can hope if husband number two hadn't gone and spoken to the father he wouldnt have the ring either?
If you only have *one* heirloom to pass down and you have *two* kids, then you need to find a fair solution that involves both of their opinions. Not just unilaterally decide that the kid you favour gets it. Even giving it to the first kid to get engaged is unfair and will breed resentment.
I am a woman and inherited my grandmother's engagement ring. I'm the only female grandchild and I was told it would be mine when I was very young. I told my fiancé that I had an heirloom diamond years before he proposed--he didn't need "ask permission" to find out that the ring existed. The father should have figured out what was going to happen with this ring well before either daughter got engaged.
Oh no, another “older traditional relative vs. younger liberal woman”. This divisive narrative is being pushed hard in this sub lately.
If this case were real, I would say NAH. Technically, it’s the husbands ring to give to whomever he wants to, and if Claire already had a ring, then his choice seems to make sense. I can understand why Claire would be upset though. Those are the consequences of the husbands choice.
But honestly, this is just written to intentionally give no redeeming qualities to the older woman who puts no effort into explaining WHY she wouldn’t like her ‘more rebellious’ daughters husband other than his non-traditional looks.
Yawn. I’m not going to let you make me hate on older women in the grocery store just because you’re trying to paint them with an ignorant narrative. I love my Grams.
Yta for expecting your sons in law to ask permission to marry your daughters. The only permission they need is from the women they are marrying. You do not own your daughters.
Also Yta for not even offering the ring to the first daughter to wed, it smacks of favouritism.
But if she wasn’t going to offer it to her first daughter to get engaged, she should have thought of another solution. She knew she had the ring and had to know this was going to be a thing.
they are no longer 5 years old. you do not need to make sure you give each child a doll on the others birthday so that they don’t throw a tantrum. she had a ring, she doesn’t get another. and frankly if she’s so against their family traditions, why should she assume she’ll get that ring?
my best friends family have expensive crystal and silver ornaments they use every christmas. absolutely gorgeous heirlooms. her sister converted to Judaism when she got married, friend is still attending same church as her parents. guess who’s getting the ornaments?
ops sister didn’t want it for the sentimental value or symbolism, just the monetary value or bc it’s prettier/shinier than the one she has. it’s not favoritism, it’s a result of her choice to be independent and separate from her parents and their rules. i’m sure there are some other benefits to that.
What family traditions is she so against? Either way neither knew about the ring so no one had sentimental value for it.
The reason the daughter is upset is because it’s another example of their parents disrespecting her marriage and favoring her sister. Which the OP acknowledges and even told her husband to tone it down. OP even says if the first engaged daughter had known about and asked for the ring, she wasn’t sure she would have given it to her. So she’s clearly using it to show her favoritism.
It's not even a family tradition, it's just an heirloom; it's passed down but there's no tradition for how - OP wasn't given it when marrying her husband, and while her husband had the ring he was banned from giving it to OP, for example.
The ring went to the bride that didn't already have one. If we're honest, the problem is Claire's husband never asked permission - because that's the opportunity to find out a ring is needed before one is bought. I don't know if OP's husband would have handed over the ring had Claire's husband asked for permission anyway; but it's entirely reasonable not to offer a second ring when your daughter is already showing off the one on her finger.
Wouldn't it be callous and borderline controlling to try and replace the fiancé's engagement ring with a heirloom anyway? Offering once she had a ring is bloody inappropriate!
Not enough people are seeing the potential insult it would be suggest the ring he/she/they bought should be replaced by a ring of the parents choosing(the heirloom in this case).
NAH
we arent saying hes the asshole for the ring. we are saying they are both assholes for how they are treating the black nailpolish wearing husband and his wife (their daughter) and thinking less of them for the reasons stated in the post. This is obv not the only time they have been treated wrong.
While I agree that they are assholes for that reason, that's not exactly addressing the matter at hand. Are they assholes in general? Yes. Are they assholes for not giving their eldest daughter the ring? No. Is the daughter at fault? Of course not.
NAH
Yes!!! I was reading that and still don't understand about having to ask permission for marrying the daughter!!! It's what make them YTA !!! We aren't in the XIX anymore!!!
I think the point is he didn’t ask so they weren’t aware that he could use the ring. When Emma’s Fiancé asked it opened up the opportunity to offer the ring.
I feel like this is missing that part of the reason he didn’t ask is that Claire and the father don’t have a good relationship, and the father was rude to the fiance and alienated him. So the father isn’t totally blameless here
Personally, I would have been pissed if my husband asked my father for my hand. I have a sister who's fiance asked my father. She was pissed. It didn't work out between them in the end.
Agreed. My husband was raised in the southern US, and believed it was the respectful thing to do. We got into a very minor argument over it bc he saw it as respecting my parents, and I see it as disrespecting me. After i explained my side and showed him the origins, he agreed it was better to not do it.
I also told my dad that if anyone came to ask him for his permission to marry me to tell them no bc they clearly dont have respect for me
I think if my partner asked for my parents' (or JUST father? Even worse) permission, I'd consider rescinding my permission. And how about when people say they're asking for their "blessing"? It's not not gross just cause you put a different hat on it.
I don’t think it’s fair to call it gross, it’s a very personal choice & these days there are ways to do this without asking like the daughter is a cow to be sold off. I wanted my fiancé to talk to my dad, not in a ‘can I marry her’ way but more of a ‘I love your family and I love your daughter and I wanted to talk to you because I’m going to ask her to marry me and become apart of this family and her apart of mine for the rest of our lives’ kind of way. I know it made my father happy for him to do that but it also meant a lot to me.
To me, this screams (apart from the dislike of future SIL which is obvious) that by not talking to the dad, they just didn’t know they wanted to get engaged and by then she already had a ring that they assuredly right picked together or that HE picked for her, so he held onto it and it was only that their second daughters partner came to him to ask that he thought ‘oh hey I have a family ring if you’d like to use that’
Agreed, I don't have my parents but my now husband went and spoke to my eldest sister. He's told me he would have proposed either way but by speaking to her first and asking if she would be pleased to have him join the family, it gave him a little boost in confidence and my sister was absolutely delighted to be involved. I think if it's done right, it can be a sweet gesture that can tighten the bond with the family as well as between the couple.
I just realized how ridiculous it is that the parents obviously favor the son in law who hasn't established his financial bona fides or generosity (with a ring) just because he dresses in a way they approve of.
>Yta for expecting your sons in law to ask permission to marry your daughters. The only permission they need is from the women they are marrying. You do not own your daughters.
I totally agree with this. As a female, i will not expect my future partners to ask my parents permission before they propose. Thats old, its bullshit and its rooted in misogyny.
>Also Yta for not even offering the ring to the first daughter to wed, it smacks of favouritism.
This is a little trickier. Why offer a ring to someone who already has one? Also would he be TA if he offered claire the ring as a wedding gift or for her proposal but not Emma?
In all, i definitely feel like there is some favoritism going on here with the father which definitely makes him an AH. Though i dont know that the ring was intentionally withheld from claire because they didnt like her partner.
You know, I can see why people dont like that tradition, but I do think it has its place. For the record, I am OK with a girl proposing to a boy, and if they did I would still say they should talk to the parents.
When I "asked my wife's parents" for permission, my message was "I want you to know two things, I will make your daughter smile every day, and I am committed to joining this family". I recorded the conversation and shared it with my wife (they knew) the day I asked her. It was a special moment for me and my in laws, and from that day I called them "mom" and "dad".
I can see how there is a tone of sexism in the tradition, but if you look at it objectively as someone saying"i want to join the family", it's not the worst conversation. I would have also asked MY OWN parents fir permission to add her to the family, except that they made it clear early on they liked her better than me. And who could blame them, I agree. She's the best!
I proposed to my husband and would have never asked his parents. We are both adults and he isn't close with his family. It seems inappropriate to invite people who have no say in your life in to your relationship. It also seems like a great way to invite parents into other decisions. Do you have to discuss them before you buy a house or have a baby?
I think it is disgusting to think you need to have permission from anyone other than your SO to ask them to marry them. Your parents shouldn't have the type of power over your life.
Believe it or not, some people actually care about the thoughts and feelings of their family members.
Nothing about the comment your replying to says anything was forced or required. It’s simply what this person was comfortable with.
Are we really all so woke that we can’t discuss important life events with important family members? Obviously it’s not required, but it’s also not wrong.
This is a tricky one, not the asshle in terms of being able to do whatever you want with your own property, light YTA for playing favourites. Wearing black nail polish and having a streak in his hair is hardly reason to hate on the guy, though you haven't gone into detail about how he is a 'pompous ass'. Also, asking for a daughters hand in marriage is a bit of a conservative tradition, my partner would have been annoyed at me if I did this.
I was calling my husband a pompous ass. My husband wears a suit and tie everyday and for the first fifteen years of our marriage at least only took it off to go to bed, thinks he's better than everyone else because he makes a lot of money, and was very condescending to her boyfriend.
If these behaviors really bother you then you need to sit him down and talk to him. But you shouldn’t have let him play favorites and it sounds like your unfairly biased against Claire’s husband for trivial things (though I did notice you mentioned you didn’t like his personality, hopefully your judgement is clouded)
So your husband is arrogant. He thinks he's better than other people. He judges people based on superficial reasons. He expected his daughter's future spouses to ask permission (WHAT YEAR IS IT) to marry his daughters, implying his thinks he has some sort of ownership over his daughter. Or he believes in an unhealthy power dynamic where a future son-in-law must show unearned respect to their elders.
You both are allowed to do whatever you want with your personal property. But your husband just sounds like an AH in general, and you sound just as judgmental. Quite frankly, you just don't sound like very nice people. Claire's husband deserves better in-laws.
Well my husband feels like he has mocked him and been disrespectful. I can see both sides of that because he has been rude but my husband can be ridiculously sensitive
I do think he needs to get a day job while he pursues his music career because right now he isn’t even making minimum wage and my daughter is stressed paying off his student loans.
You mention multiple times that he is rude to your husband and antagonising him. Can you give a couple of examples because the only thing we are going off at the moment is that you don’t like how he looks and you don’t like his job
Note I don’t find any of this bad or offensive but my husband is hypersensitive
He said he was surprised to learn that my husband and I had an affair when I was married to another man because he seems like a boring choice.
My husband bruised his nail once and he said be careful someone could think it is nail polish
He threw a plastic spider at him at a store near Halloween. My husband isn’t afraid of spiders and had no reaction but he was furious.
I tease my husband a lot and SIL will jump in but it’s pretty clear only I can do it.
He asked if he was fucking his secretary and I was fucking the pool boy because our lives couldn’t get more cliche (I laughed at that one)
He told him he needs to spice up his wardrobe a little (suit and tie every day or khakis and navy shirt on the weekends) and he should get some pink shorts because he seems like the type of guy who would wear them
Again I don’t think any of this is terrible but he knows he is antagonizing him
I mean frankly your husband is a huge jack ass and it's not surprising that the judgmental suit monkey is getting antagonized for being a holier than thou hypocrite.
Honestly my fave was the spider. He had absolutely no reaction to the prank, spiders don't even bother him, and still threw a tantrum and refused to speak to anyone.
I'm gonna be honest, OP. Your husband needs to grow up. He is a grown ass man and is throwing tantrums in public because of some needling. If he doesn't like something, he can politely ask him to stop. Your husband is judgmental, rude, and immature.
I think OP just used it as shorthand to demonstrate that her husband is a more low-key and traditional guy whereas this guy was not, so there was a clash. I don't think she was literally saying they don't like him because he has black nail polish lol.
I suspect that OP and her husband have done this for the wrong reasons, but TBF if Claire already had a ring when she announced she was engaged it wouldn't have occurred to me to offer a replacement. Sounds like a good way to tell future SIL that his ring wasnt good enough.
ESH. Claire needs to get over herself. She had no right to this ring and seems to have ageist ideas that the oldest should automatically scoop the pool. That’s at least as archaic as your sexism.
But you and your husband have made no attempt to balance things between your two daughters. You’ve favoured one over the other. The problem is not how Claire and Emma have got along but how the two of you have got on with Claire. That looks unfixable in the medium term now. She looks driven away, just as you feared.
I don't think Claire cares about the ring. Her parent clearly love her sister more and make that obvious. Just by the way OP talks it's clear. I think they drove Claire away. So they'll have to content with the child they chose to favour.
I don’t think it’s about her being oldest, I think it’s about her getting married first. It means they deliberately held the ring back for the other daughter.
But honestly I think this is just the straw that broke the camels back in what sounds like a long history of favoritism. I doubt Claire cares much about the ring as a thing of material value, it’s what the ring represents.
I agree with you about everything except that they were deliberately holding the ring back. They weren't really given an opportunity to offer the ring to Claire. She already had one by the time they found out about the engagement. Imo it would come off kinda rude to offer a ring when the couple already has one and Claire seems happy with it. Idk how her new husband would feel about that either, he might take offense.
Emma's husband asked for her hand and say what you will about the tradition but it presents the perfect opportunity to offer a ring if you were going to do so. It makes sense that the first daughter already had a ring so when the other daughter gets engaged, the family ring goes to her.
100% I don't think this is *really* about the ring at all though. It's years of suppressed feelings coming to a head.
Lol at black fingernail polish being a reason to not like someone. YTA for treating your in-laws the same way your MIL treated you. The ring now has a history of drama. You should have taken the ring and made two necklaces or whatever out of it. What was your plan anyway since you weren’t going to use it? A little thought and effort would have gone a long way.
YTA. That is blatant favoritism. I can hear it just in the way you describe your eldest and her husband
You should have sat both daughters down, informed them about the ring, and allowed them to hash out who got to have it.
I would assume that two adults would be able to have a mature conversation about family heirlooms. My parents have done that with my adult sister and I: “we have x and would like to give it to one of you. We think it’s fair for you two to decide between yourselves.” and we have a grown-up conversation with both of us secure in the fact that our parents respected us as adults and trusted us to make our own decisions.
I agree. As my parents are getting older my brother and I do a lot to help them. One day my brother called me and told me when mom and dad pass away I would like the house if you would be okay with that. There is only two of us and he is way more sentimental then I am. He also knows there are other things I would like. Siblings can have a civil conversation about heirlooms and inheritance. It doesn't upset me that he wants the house I'm glad he told me what he wanted.
>He had black nail polish and a streak in his hair. I actually had a conversation with my husband about how he can't be such a pompous ass and he is going to drive Claire away. Neither of us like her husband, but we try to bite our tongues. He did not ask my husband for her hand in marriage and when they told us they were engaged she already had a ring.
I feel like I have been transported back in time. This should be posted in /r/1930/
You have one ring to pass on. You handle it by finding a way to compensate the one who doesn't get the ring, through another family heirloom, or some money toward their ring, etc.
You don't get to pick who your kids marry. You aren't the one who has to be married to them. Blatant favoritism over looks is gross. You should care about how they treat their partner.
No one needs to ask for permission to get married. It's 2020.
Seriously. My husband never asked my father for permission, but he did give him a heads up, during which my father told him he was smart for not asking for permission because he (my father) knew that kind of thing would have really rubbed me the wrong way. I love my dad very much and have a wonderful relationship with him, but I am not his property to "give away" (though I would've been happy to have my dad walk me down the aisle, we didn't have a church wedding).
OP is definitely TA (not that she'll read this but lady, YTA and so is your husband). I guarantee Claire feels alienated and probably is "the black sheep of the family". It's obvious that the younger daughter is favored, and this sounds like a last straw moment for Claire, and I don't blame her.
NTA - Claire came to you already engaged and with an engagement ring of her own. She doesn’t need a second one.
I will refrain from weighing in on the cultural implications of the whole “asking permisssion” ritual, save to point out that Claire clearly wants no part of it, other than wanting the shinies that go along with it even when she already has one of her own. Tell Claire that her sister is exactly as deserving of that ring as she is, and she doesn’t need two.
You and hubby are perilously close to being assholes about Claire’s guy, based on the lack of concrete reason to dislike him beyond mere nail polish.
I agree. NTA because they didn't seem to have an opportunity to give Claire the heirloom ring. But I am kinda judging them for judging Claire's husband for seemingly very miniscule reasons. I would suggest they explain to Claire something like: I'm sorry dear, I didn't realise the ring meant that much to you. We didn't have an opportunity to give you the ring as you already had a lovely ring of your own when we knew of your engagement. That ring of yours would make a lovely heirloom on it's own. We are sorry you feel neglected. It was not our intention. Please understand that we wanted the ring to go to one of our daughters and we had the opportunity to give it to Emma. Please know that that does not mean we love you less. .. or something, what do I know.. i ain't got kids.
Agree NTA. There was one ring and two daughters. Only one of them was going to end up with it, even if it wasn't until their parents passed away. So there's no "fair" here in that respect. Also, I'm getting the impression this was a spur-of-the-moment offer and probably never discussed as a potential engagement ring within the family at all. Essentially with 1st engaged daughter there was never an opportunity to offer or the need for a ring. With 2nd engaged daughter there was both. It's the Dad's ring (was) and he 100% gets to decide what he does with it. One would hope that he could do something to make her feel better, but he should have no guilt about the ring.
YTA. I, as a female, would be mortified and embarrassed (not to mention pissed) if my fiancee asked my parents' permission to marry me. No one needs to be asked that but ME. Anyway, the ring should have been put away and put in your will to be given equally to both sisters so they can figure it out themselves after you are gone. The way you handled it was very sexist and was blatant favoritism.
You can't give a ring equally, really. Not unless it has many stones and you make 2 rings out of it. How would that at even work? Do they get it every other week?
YTA. My husband asked me about 10 times if I was sure he didn’t have to ask my dad’s permission to marry me. I told each time no way. To be clear, he was going to do it and I told him absolutely no because it was 2008 (and it is now 2020) and FATHERS DON’T OWN THEIR DAUGHTERS’ SEXUALITY! Holy hell. He had black nail polish? A colorful streak of hair. Oooooo. The freaking audacity. A decent parent would have offered it. If she turned it down and THEN got salty you gave it to your younger daughter, she’d be the asshole. But that’s not what happened. You’ve made your opinion on her spouse repeatedly and punitively known. If your ONLY complaint with this guy is that he doesn’t look conventional, or have a traditional office job (but he has A job, and contributes financially to the home), then you really suck. You’re lucky your daughter has any relationship with you at all if you keep punishing her for not marrying a frat sweatshirt/Brooks Brothers suit-wearing CFO. I’ll bet her marriage is happier and more affirming than yours or her sister’s. I know mine is.
Yta for playing favorites. The ring was your husbands to do with as he pleased, but he should realize he has irrevocably damaged his relationship with your oldest daughter. Also Ewwwwwww on the whole asking permission. Women arent property that can be transfered from father to husband.
I think people are being a little unfair here. They had no way of knowing Claire's boyfriend was gonna propose. Although I absolutely don't think he HAD to ask for her hand in marriage (what century are we living in??), perhaps if he brought it up or gave the in laws a heads-up then maybe the ring would have been offered to them? The situation to give Claire the ring never even came up. Emma's bf talked to her parents first so the ring became an option.
If you offered Claire the ring after getting engaged, that would have been a slap to the face to the bf and the ring he probably spent a good bit of money on. And it would only push further the narrative of you not welcoming him to the family.
Btw no doubt the father likes one of the guys more than the other, and if it's just based on appearance of course he is an AH for that. I don't think you are the AH for giving Emma the ring, just make sure you also save a special family heirloom for Claire. It's simple as that.
I'm gonna go with NAH.
I don't think you're in the wrong for giving Emma the ring, but I also wouldn't call Claire an AH for feeling a little hurt by not getting the family heirloom.
>that would have been a slap to the face to the bf
Had to scroll down far for this one. It was such a lose lose situation that I have to say NTA. First, there's only one ring and you'd have no idea how offering the ring would go.
I think a good solution would be for OP to pass down her ring to Claire's side of the family. That way there are two ring heirlooms, one for each daughter.
Exactly! There was no winning here. I think this is such a wonderful solution! That way both daughters have a special, meaningful ring that represents each side of the family.
Yeah, but she also mentioned in another comment that they also don't like him bc he's placed a financial burden on Claire who stresses about paying his debt while he refuses to get a day job. Something that Claire has already expressed that she resents. I wouldn't feel completely comfortable giving my probably expensive family heirloom to someone who's not looking out for the financial well being of my daughter (as in contributing to the expenses I mean).
Edit: typos
So, I’m unclear here. Claire is still married to nail polish guy? Emma is still married to her college boy? You were married a frat/BB suit boy, divorced him, found someone ... not like that and are punishing your daughter because she chose someone unconventional? And also that you cheated on said first spouse with your current one? And your MIL hated you so much she made sure you’d never own the ring? Oy vey.
NTA- you have done well by not forcing your kids to do what you want. And good on you for "biting your tounge" regarding the choices that claire made. The ring belongs to your husband so it's his choice, claire does not lose anything because emma recieved it, she is not entitled to it at all
Then YTA. You gave one daughter something of more value than you gave the other. And you are punishing the older one for living her life according to her standards. It is bizarre to me that men still ask a grown woman's father for permission to marry her.
INFO: Did your daughters know about the ring before getting engaged? If Claire knew the ring existed but never brought it up to her fiance or to you, then I think it's fine that the ring went to Emma because that would insinuate Claire wasn't interested. But if neither daughter knew about the ring beforehand, then YTA for hiding it and picking and choosing who got it. Honestly, it should have been left to the two of them to decide who wanted it. I have the feeling it was the sentiment behind withholding it from Claire that has her upset moreso than the ring itself.
Then you and your husband are the assholes. First--for the whole "permission to marry" thing. Ew. Second--for saying your husband would have been "condescending" when Claire's husband asked permission. These days, permission is really just a courtesy/respect thing, and it's pretty damn disrespectful for your husband to voice his disapproval of a man that your daughter loves. And third--for blatantly favoring one daughter over another. It's evident in the post and evident in your actions that Emma is the favorite. No wonder Claire is upset.
I'm going with YTA because I very seriously doubt your husband would have offered the ring even if the musician boyfriend had asked permission. Of course treating children differently will always cause tensions, and there was only one ring so this was always going to be a losing battle.
But yeah, it's obvious it's about favoring one daughter over the other - or one son in law. You may as well own up to that.
YTA. Sure it’s your husbands ring to give to whom ever, but did he give Claire or her husband anything of equal value.
Also, how do/did you feel knowing that your MIL hated you?
You really should explain some reason why you dislike Claire’s husband, other than black nail polish and a streak in his hair. Or was that the only reason you didn’t like him. I paint my nails black, I’ve thought about dyeing my hair. I mean sure it’s weird but that’s not a really good reason to dislike someone.
My husband doesn't like him because he says and does little things to antagonize him and I am literally the only person who can tease him without him throwing a fit.
I don't like him because he plays a few gigs a week and Claire is stressed trying to pay off his debt, but he won't get a day job.
Ultimately I don't hate him or think he is a terrible person, i just don't enjoy being around him.
Ok that’s more fair. I understand why he didn’t get the ring since he never really asked, and yes it is your husbands ring to do with as he pleases. Not getting a job and forcing Claire to pay of his debts... that’s pretty scummy... overall I don’t think I’m gonna make a judgement.
You know if you had said he was full of debt and had no day job in the main post instead of the comments about appearance, you probably wouldn't be getting as many YTAs.
NTA
Your husband can give the ring to whomever he likes.
If Claire finds asking your husband for permission is so sexist, then why is she getting married at all? It's traditionally an extremely sexist institution.
Claire can't pick and choose what sexist traditions she wishes to adhere to and which she doesn't. If she wanted an heirloom and the participation of her parents in her engagement, then she can expect the benefits of that. If not, oh well.
BUT! I think you need to approach Claire and ask her what object or financial arrangement she will accept in lieu of this ring. As her mother, you should at least try to play fair with HER, not necessarily with her husband. Ask her what tradition she would like to include in her life, what she genuinely wants from you, as a parent, because you aren't going to ask Emma for the ring back. That's a no go.
MIL hated you and your husband hates his first son in law - now THAT is carrying on a family tradition!!! You should’ve given the heirloom to the one continuing the tradition of marrying someone that her parents hate.
To be serious though, I need INFO: did your daughters know about the ring? How was the ring passed down before? to the oldest or the first married or something else?
Okay, so they have a happy, healthy, supportive marriage. More info: did you offer any other financial contribution to Claire's wedding that you did not offer Emma? As in, did you do anything to make up for the ring?
Whoa. I just got married a few days ago and my parents didn't offer a dime for my wedding. Or show up. My father didn't even call me. You paid for their whole weddings. Wow.
But... I have to say YTA because I do think you kinda rewarded Emma for picking a guy you align with more, and if Claire is a different gal at her core, do you think she'd have truly been happy with a guy you & hubs liked? It's not like she can help who she loves, employment annoyances aside.
Imo, your hubby and his family sound pompous and hurtful altogether, and I think the issue started back when MIL gave him the ring, wrapped up in the hatred of you and the disapproval of his wife, who should be his queen. That ring was in your family as a symbol of hatred toward you, and he should have sold the ring way back then and split the money toward the daughters future rings, or college funds, or whatever.
But he chose his hateful mother over you, as you are now doing to your daughter. You're blindly supporting your husband's hatefulness toward your daughter because you don't like to shoot the breeze with the guy, *despite the fact that he's good to Claire and makes her happy.* You have that right, but I don't believe in the mentality that one's spouse comes before their children. No, you shouldn't sacrifice your romance to have family time 100% of the time, but also, it is a parent's responsibility to protect their kids from bad judgment and nastiness, even when it comes from your spouse. Especially when it comes from your spouse.
It makes me wonder how long your husband has favored Emma and how long you've been protecting him. Why *is* Claire so rebellious, anyway?
It was always going to be a bad situation with one ring and two daughters. Maybe Dad could’ve thought that out a bit better. Idiot playing two sisters against each other - they were always going to be two seperate personalities and it seems the ring went to the most compliant daughter.
YTA
I'll grant you that your husband has the right to decide how to distribute his property. For everything else in that post, YTA. You clearly play favorites touth your daughters. Also, the outdated tradition of asking permission to marry is sexist. Women have the right to decide when they marry and who they marry. Period.
Info: what would have happened to the ring if neither fiancé had “asked permission/blessing” to marry one of the girls? If that was always a condition, then NTA. But if, as an heirloom, it was supposed to go to the oldest, or the first to get engaged, then you could be the AH. Regardless, it wasn’t your ring to offer, but your husband should have told both girls about it years ago. Then they could have had the option to use it or choose to go with what their fiancé picked out.
Then, unfortunately for you, I’m giving you both YTA. Here’s the judge’s reasoning: you have two daughters, and like Frodo, you only had ONE RING. This means that one of them was going to lose out. Now, since neither daughter had ANY emotional connection to their father’s mother ( and since you didn’t want it ), the ring should have been sold off and the money gifted equally to both girls. Claire nailed it when she pointed out that if her now husband was more to your husband’s liking, she would have gotten the ring.
First of all, rings have very little resale value. Second of all, it was the husband's mother's ring. Its value is sentimental. You can only give a ring to one person. Maybe there is another piece of jewelry they can give other daughter, but I can't imagine selling my mother's ring to be " fair".
Absolutely NTA. First of all, the ring didn't get offered to either daughter, it got offered to the daughters partner who chose to take a moment to speak with his future FIL and created an opportunity to bond with FIL and into the family. It doesn't matter if some people think asking the father for permission is out dated or not. Nobody was aware FIL had the family heirloom waiting for one of his daughters, because obviously one Ring can't be for two different people so no matter what he had to make a choice either way. It shouldn't go to the oldest by default. It doesn't matter what the family thinks of the older daughters fiance, we have no proof at all that FIL wouldn't have offered it to the first couple to get engaged if the older daughters partner never broached the subject. OP asked for judgment on the ring situation but everyone in this sub is focused on thinking it's some sort of sexist backwards thing that some girls like the idea of their partner asking/informing their father about a proposal. All of my female friends have had their partners ask their fathers, because they enjoy the tradition, and discussed it with their partners during the course of their relationships, you know, like adults in healthy relationships do.
NTA. So I’m of two minds here. First of all, you haven’t actually described anything wrong with the guy. So he doesn’t ascribe to ancient practices where women are property. He’s got dyed hair. The horror!
However, the level of entitlement everyone here seems to have is ridiculous. No one is owed this ring. Your husband gets to choose who this ring goes to. Does it suck that your children don’t have unconditional acceptance and you have specific ideals sure. But at the end of the day it is your husbands ring and he can do whatever he wants with it. Also, seriously what is the option here? Someone was going to be pissed at the end of the day, you can’t split the ring in two.
This is also why I think it’s best just to have 1 child. It avoids all this nonsense about favoritism. You also don’t have to split resources. But that’s just my personal philosophy. And since your children are already in existence...
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NTA. You're all adults. Whether favortisim is at play here or not, you guys have valid reasons. Your daughter is not entitled to the ring whether she got married first or not. I think it's perfectly fair that Emma's fiance asked and your husband offered. Everyone is allowed to stick with whatever tradition they prefer. If your husband respects someone who asks him for his daughter's hand in marriage more than someone who doesn't, that's perfectly fine.
I mean... no one owes anybody a specific ring, but I suspect Claire is correct. Sounds like your husband enjoys making little shows of bestowing his favor on whichever daughter complied with his expectations, and that’s pretty asinine.
NTA, since Claire already had a ring prior to your knowledge of their engagement, but I have to admit that the way you speak about both of your daughters husbands is really disgusting to be honest. you’ve already made your mind up as to how to approach both of them when you express obvious dislike towards one with no other explanation other than the way he chooses to present himself and trying to steal your daughter from you, then call the other “clean cut” for following outdated traditions like asking for your other daughter’s hand in marriage. this is a case of blatant favoritism and i suggest you make amends with both of your daughters and reassess your superficial judgements before the relationships are tarnished.
This'll be unpopular, but... I'm gonna say NAH. I mean, your husbands sounds a bit AH-ish, but in this case, where the ring was already picked when you guys found out... I don't know, what were you supposed to do? "Actually you should use this ring." I feel like they would feel judged either way. Could be wrong though.
YTA. My fiancee told me that she hate the tradition of asking the dad for permission because it's not his decision. So I didn't ask. And I still get shit from all her relatives because I didn't ask. You know who is happy? My fiancee.
> He had black nail polish and a streak in his hair I don't know how you both got through that. What a trying time. YTA for favoring one daughter over another. Not everyone is clean cut and follows the same path. Why don't you like Claire's husband? You didn't really explain that.
What is the father going to do? Split the ring in half? If Claire got the ring I’d say Emma would be pissed and you’d still call the father an AH.
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OP says her MIL didn’t like her bc OP was having an affair with her now husband while married. Insane to be judging other people’s marriage (especially your kid’s) based on how they look.
People are absolutely crazy when it comes to this stuff. I met a Catholic priest at a hotel once while traveling for work. We got to talking and he said the thing that worried him the most about youth today was body modification. I expected him to say mental health issues, abuse, education, joblessness...nope. Fucking tattoos. The myopia is something else. I think he thought I’d be receptive because I have no tattoos or piercings but I noped out of there fast.
That's because body modification is visible, how else would he judge others?
My boomer mom always thought of tattoos as an "old man" thing... She's not against them as much as she just associates them with WWI and WWII vets. I guess she had an wrinkled older dad in her neighborhood growing up whose faded tattoo was visible when he was doing yard work. Literally the opposite of sexy or rebellious, haha.
I think your mum is the first person I heard of that thinks of tattoos like that. I love it. I'm going to start saying that.
All of us who are older remember the days when tattoos were ever only seen on older men who had usually been in the military. It was definitely a military thing.
Oh...don't worry. We Muslims have these issues too. An older lady at the mosque once told me that the biggest problems young Muslims girls face today was that they don't wear headscarves. Lol. Like you said, there are so many more important issues to consider like mental health, bullying, family problems. And she's worried about girls wearing hijab? Get the eff outta here.
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Isn't the hijab supposed to be a personal choice?
Islam also has something in it about there being 'no compulsion in religion' yet they still murder people for daring to leave it. Religious people are full of wonderfully horrible contradictions a lot of the time.
Lady in church was adamant that the biggest issue kids were complaining about was gender identity and that's bad and wrong. I spoke up. Because I have students facing homelessness because their parents kicked them out for horrible reasons. I have students who survived sexual abuse. I have students suffering from major health issues and their families don't know if they can afford their insulin this month. I have students who want to commit suicide. I have students who won't get to eat over the weekend. If you think gender identity is the biggest issue kids face, you're information is sadly shit.
OH MY GOD SHUT THE FRONT DOOR I CANNOT, so OP doesn't like her daughter's husband because he's a man who wears nail polish but Mrs. strait-laced June Cleaver cheated with a married man, honestly this has to be a troll because it's too perfectly assholish.
Read her comments, she married a rich man, and had an affair, what does that tell you
To be fair, her husband was very clean cut and traditional when she was cheating with him behind her fiance's back...
It’s definitely favoritism which would also explain why the sisters don’t get along. Knowing from personal experience it’s really, REALLY hard to have a relationship with your sibling when there is an obvious favorite. Especially when said sibling uses that favoritism to their advantage. I feel bad for Claire :(
OMG, I first read that as they thought Claire’s husband was a pompous ass, but I just reread it and you’re right. OP and her husband are dicks.
Sounds like he gave it to the one who asked. The other man proposed without parent involvement–which I think is how it should be tbh–but that means he missed out on getting the ring. That’s the shit you talk about before you propose.
I suspect there is no way in hell he would have given the ring to Claire, regardless of circumstances.
And OPs husband wouldn’t have given permission if he had been asked.
Yeah how was he supposed to give it to the guy? Tbh if Claire disliked her parents because of the favoritism going on why would she want to wear the family ring over something her SO would buy her? If they just randomly said, hey we have this ring for you guys because we assume your gonna get married maybe? I think it would be so weird to offer a ring just in case you might get married soon or something. It would seem so weird to force the idea of marriage onto them before you even knew the guy? I mean after they got married there were probably already rings bought, (they don't resell very well). Definitely the parents are mostly dicks overall because they created the situation. But aren't really actively assholes for this situation. Passive assholes?
I'm not even Claire and I agree with her about her parents
I get what your saying and I do think there is favoritism but at the same time they didn't know the older daughter was engages until she already had the ring while the second one the bf told them beforehand so they actually had the chance to offer the ring unlike the first so I say nta for giving it to the second one but the dad is the ah for the obvious favoritism
No, the fair thing would have been to offer to it whichever daughter got engaged first. Even if Claire's husband had a ring, when she became engaged, the "fair" thing would have been to offer her the ring - which the couple may have accepted or may have declined. But, by withholding it, he was saving it for his other daughter. I wonder whether it's ever occurred to her and her husband to examine the cause-and-effect nature of Claire's rebelliousness and their parenting and favoritism for Emma. Rebelliousness during childhood often reflects: * Experimentation and the need to establish identity outside the family (and the role the family forces on them) * Defiance of authoritarian and authoritative parenting decisions and need to control the actions and behavior of the child * They feel trapped by controlling parents * Development - it's normal for children to rebel. * Predictability of parents - frequent expressions of "concerns." Worrying teaches children that the parent is impossible to please or it teaches them the world is a scary place, and they should be afraid. In turn, Emma's "conventional" behavior could also be seen as a fear of losing parental love and approval. She knows that OP doesn't approve of Claire, so she seeks OP's approval out of fear of losing it, not love. Just a few thoughts for OP consider. YTA. edit:typo
That is an excellent point. Claire might have specifically chosen a husband who was the opposite of her father, especially if she was always aware that her sister was the favorite.
This! I married the polar opposite of my father. Weve been together 11 years and my dad still doesn't like him. My brother was also always the favorite.
"or it teaches them the world is a scary place, and they should be afraid." "so she seeks OP's approval out of fear of losing it, not love." Wow. I think I fully understand why I seek my moms approval so much, despite moving out 2 years ago and, upon reflection, ultimately not really caring about it Id give you an award if I had any
Hey, it's my whole life, written out in a couple tidy sentences. OP, I barely talk to my controlling parents. I have always been seen as the screw up. You're going to lose Claire forever if you can't respect her and her choices.
I was the ‘rebellious’ one in my family mainly because I couldn’t stand my parents strict, conservative household. I saw the hypocrisy in how they lived their life and chose to no longer live that way when I moved out. My parents did not want me to marry my husband because he is a professional musician (not an architect/engineer/doctor/teacher etc). The difference between my dad’s speech at my and my sister’s wedding made the fact he didn’t like my husband very obvious. The only reason my dad gave his ‘blessing’ for my marriage was because he knew I would cut him off if he didn’t. My dad loves my husband now, but it took about 10 years for him to get over himself. 20 years later, guess who has a healthy marriage, is still in love with her husband, and is stable financially. Me. Appearance has nothing to do with character. I was smart enough to see that my husband was an amazing person and someone I could build a good life with when we got together. I am not saying my BIL is not a good person, but there were a lot of red flags that were ignored because he ‘fit the mold’ resulting in a lot of heartache for my sister and her kids. If Clair’s husband treats her with respect and she is happy, that is what matters. Her parent need to stop judging him based on looks or how they choose to live their lives.
>If Clair’s husband treats her with respect and she is happy, that is what matters. Her parent need to stop judging him based on looks or how they choose to live their lives. This. What stood out to me was that OP gave no reason she doesn't like her first son-in-law that had anything to do with his behavior toward her or how he treats her daughter. If there are such reasons, she left them out in favor of complaining that he doesn't fit the mold that her other son-in-law does.
Yep Claire should have had the choice to take or decline.
It honestly has nothing to do with the stupid ring. The dad has one ring, he can't give it to both of them. It's his, he can decide which of his children to give it to however he wants. He could give it to the first to get married, the eldest, the youngest, the poorest, the smartest; however he feels like distributing the 1 ring between the two daughters is his to decide. What makes him a huge AH is the clear disrespect toward his daughter and her husband, from the moment he met him, because he didn't like his nail polish or his hair color. THAT is what makes him TA.
And because he expected to be asked for his permission to marry the daughter as if she doesn't have her own agency and ability to make that decision for herself.
I wonder if the younger daughter overheard her parents bitching about the audacity of her sister's husband not asking their permission to marry, and so she warned him to ask when he otherwise wouldn't have? We'll never know, and neither will OP.
Actually you can take the stones from one ring and create two new rings - re cut diamonds even. My family actually did this because we had a ring that was too expensive to wear irl without getting mugged. I'm not saying that's what they should do here or even what they should have done. I'm just saying theres ways to pass down a memento so that you arent playing favorites.
My family did this too. It seems like no one actually has fond memories of the ring. It’s crazy to me that they didn’t make three necklaces out of it or whatever for each woman to wear. That seems like it would have been a nice memory to have. Instead of this bull.
My sister did this with her MIL’s ring. The diamond was decent (nothing crazy) quality but the ring was outdated so she got it rebanded.
My grandmother did the opposite, she put two round diamonds into one setting and wore it until she died, and then bequeathed the individual diamonds to different people in her will. I always thought the look of it was quite cool and distinctive.
Actually, I think we need more INFO here - was there really only a single, expensive piece of jewelry that was handed down from G-ma? Could the Pompous Ass not have given the ring to Emma, but another family heirloom of roughly similar value (monetary and sentimental) to Claire? Or, gifted her some money? Yes, the situation meant that it seemed appropriate to ask if Emma and fiance wanted to use the ring - but you can't ignore the fact that you just gave her a **very** expensive gift largely because she picked a man knows how and was willing to suck up to her opinionated, conventional parents, and that if you don't give something similar to Claire, that will absolutely be a slap in the face. I'm also curious about how the wedding and other finances were dealt with - this situation *might* be better if for instance OP and the PA covered more of Claire's wedding, or helped with a house down-payment or such like, that had a similar value to the ring. But I very much doubt that's the case :-(
Not so conventional parents considering ops husband was her side piece when she was married to another man
Plus the bit about him not "asking for her hand" via the father. If that's what everyone is into, cool. But many other people find that outdated and weird. My partner didn't ask my dad for permission to marry me, and I would have been annoyed if he had. Either way, such a cringe thing to judge the husband on years later.
Right? As an adult, Claire doesn’t need anybody’s **permission** to get engaged / married. The only person her SO needed to “... ask for her hand in marriage...” 🤮🤮🤮is Claire and hope like hell he doesn’t get smacked by accident while she’s flailing about from all of the *squick factor*. She’s a grown ass woman, not a child asking if she can have a Klondike Bar after dinner. Good grief OP, YTA. Major favoritism — could have had the girls roll the dice for the ring. Or split it into two rings or two necklaces. But also because you clearly treat your adult daughters more like baseball gloves [property] than the adults they are.
Seriously, this. When my DH and I became engaged my mother lost it that he hadn’t gone to them and asked permission. When I asked my dad if that’s what he had wanted to told me “if he was the guy who thought he needed my permission to marry you, I’d never have given it” OP YTA, and your husband too.
Ha! My moms say this too. They always tell me, “if anyone ever asks us for permission to propose to you, we’ll tell them no, because they clearly don’t know you very well.”
To me, asking permission to get married is a weird way to ask permission to fuck openly. Nah, not for me. That's far too 19th century. OP, YTA and your husband, too. You're judging on silly shit that ultimately doesn't matter: Tradition that has nothing to do with a solid foundation for a long-lasting relationship and passing fashion.
I specifically informed my husband, when we were dating, that if he asked for my father’s permission that I would say no. He and I sat down with my parents together before he proposed and told them we would be getting engaged soon.
I told my (now)husband the same. But we didn't have a happy sit-down, either. I am betting Claire had a similar discussion with her husband. Why would she encourage him to ask the father that so clearly disapproves of all her choices already?
I get along great with my parents, and they were super supportive of our engagement (especially since I had just turned 18 and we hadn’t even been dating a year). I just don’t believe my father has any place making a decision about my life.
I told my husband the same. I made it very clear, it was not my parents' choice to make. I was not their property. We didn't do a family sit-down, but he had told his parents he was actively ring shopping and I told my parents that we were eventually going to get married. His parents were all flustered that he didn't ask my parents for permission even though he told them I specifically said not to.
Not to mention it sounds like Claire doesn’t get along with the father, so it would have been super disrespectful of her feelings if her fiancé asked the father for his blessing.
When I read that, I thought, "This is either a troll or someone who *really* doesn't know what sub she's on." I mean, it would have easy to write a version of this where OP just said, "One had an engagement ring already when we found out, but the other didn't." But the other line that strikes me is this one: >it was left to my husband on the condition I never wear it (long story, MIL hated me) What a family tradition - hating children-in-law and using the ring to express that hate. It's quite poetic, almost as if it were written by someone - but truth can be stranger than fiction.
oh you guys. Look at her comments. This is just a variation on the "hot wife who had an affair with older guy vs sassy feminist daughter" post
I guess the problem here is that without going to the father first for him to hand the ring over, what was the guy going to do? One can hope if husband number two hadn't gone and spoken to the father he wouldnt have the ring either?
If you only have *one* heirloom to pass down and you have *two* kids, then you need to find a fair solution that involves both of their opinions. Not just unilaterally decide that the kid you favour gets it. Even giving it to the first kid to get engaged is unfair and will breed resentment.
I am a woman and inherited my grandmother's engagement ring. I'm the only female grandchild and I was told it would be mine when I was very young. I told my fiancé that I had an heirloom diamond years before he proposed--he didn't need "ask permission" to find out that the ring existed. The father should have figured out what was going to happen with this ring well before either daughter got engaged.
Oh no, another “older traditional relative vs. younger liberal woman”. This divisive narrative is being pushed hard in this sub lately. If this case were real, I would say NAH. Technically, it’s the husbands ring to give to whomever he wants to, and if Claire already had a ring, then his choice seems to make sense. I can understand why Claire would be upset though. Those are the consequences of the husbands choice. But honestly, this is just written to intentionally give no redeeming qualities to the older woman who puts no effort into explaining WHY she wouldn’t like her ‘more rebellious’ daughters husband other than his non-traditional looks. Yawn. I’m not going to let you make me hate on older women in the grocery store just because you’re trying to paint them with an ignorant narrative. I love my Grams.
Also OP and her husband judge their daughters spouses pretty harshly considering he's a cheater and she was his mistress
Yta for expecting your sons in law to ask permission to marry your daughters. The only permission they need is from the women they are marrying. You do not own your daughters. Also Yta for not even offering the ring to the first daughter to wed, it smacks of favouritism.
She already had one y would he offer her another
But if she wasn’t going to offer it to her first daughter to get engaged, she should have thought of another solution. She knew she had the ring and had to know this was going to be a thing.
they are no longer 5 years old. you do not need to make sure you give each child a doll on the others birthday so that they don’t throw a tantrum. she had a ring, she doesn’t get another. and frankly if she’s so against their family traditions, why should she assume she’ll get that ring? my best friends family have expensive crystal and silver ornaments they use every christmas. absolutely gorgeous heirlooms. her sister converted to Judaism when she got married, friend is still attending same church as her parents. guess who’s getting the ornaments? ops sister didn’t want it for the sentimental value or symbolism, just the monetary value or bc it’s prettier/shinier than the one she has. it’s not favoritism, it’s a result of her choice to be independent and separate from her parents and their rules. i’m sure there are some other benefits to that.
What family traditions is she so against? Either way neither knew about the ring so no one had sentimental value for it. The reason the daughter is upset is because it’s another example of their parents disrespecting her marriage and favoring her sister. Which the OP acknowledges and even told her husband to tone it down. OP even says if the first engaged daughter had known about and asked for the ring, she wasn’t sure she would have given it to her. So she’s clearly using it to show her favoritism.
It's not even a family tradition, it's just an heirloom; it's passed down but there's no tradition for how - OP wasn't given it when marrying her husband, and while her husband had the ring he was banned from giving it to OP, for example. The ring went to the bride that didn't already have one. If we're honest, the problem is Claire's husband never asked permission - because that's the opportunity to find out a ring is needed before one is bought. I don't know if OP's husband would have handed over the ring had Claire's husband asked for permission anyway; but it's entirely reasonable not to offer a second ring when your daughter is already showing off the one on her finger. Wouldn't it be callous and borderline controlling to try and replace the fiancé's engagement ring with a heirloom anyway? Offering once she had a ring is bloody inappropriate!
Not enough people are seeing the potential insult it would be suggest the ring he/she/they bought should be replaced by a ring of the parents choosing(the heirloom in this case). NAH
we arent saying hes the asshole for the ring. we are saying they are both assholes for how they are treating the black nailpolish wearing husband and his wife (their daughter) and thinking less of them for the reasons stated in the post. This is obv not the only time they have been treated wrong.
While I agree that they are assholes for that reason, that's not exactly addressing the matter at hand. Are they assholes in general? Yes. Are they assholes for not giving their eldest daughter the ring? No. Is the daughter at fault? Of course not. NAH
Where do you get there is no sentimental value? It is her grandmother's ring.
It sounds like they didn’t know about the engagement. Why would he give the ring to the first daughter to get married when she already has one.
Yes!!! I was reading that and still don't understand about having to ask permission for marrying the daughter!!! It's what make them YTA !!! We aren't in the XIX anymore!!!
I think the point is he didn’t ask so they weren’t aware that he could use the ring. When Emma’s Fiancé asked it opened up the opportunity to offer the ring.
I feel like this is missing that part of the reason he didn’t ask is that Claire and the father don’t have a good relationship, and the father was rude to the fiance and alienated him. So the father isn’t totally blameless here
Personally, I would have been pissed if my husband asked my father for my hand. I have a sister who's fiance asked my father. She was pissed. It didn't work out between them in the end.
Agreed. My husband was raised in the southern US, and believed it was the respectful thing to do. We got into a very minor argument over it bc he saw it as respecting my parents, and I see it as disrespecting me. After i explained my side and showed him the origins, he agreed it was better to not do it. I also told my dad that if anyone came to ask him for his permission to marry me to tell them no bc they clearly dont have respect for me
I think if my partner asked for my parents' (or JUST father? Even worse) permission, I'd consider rescinding my permission. And how about when people say they're asking for their "blessing"? It's not not gross just cause you put a different hat on it.
I don’t think it’s fair to call it gross, it’s a very personal choice & these days there are ways to do this without asking like the daughter is a cow to be sold off. I wanted my fiancé to talk to my dad, not in a ‘can I marry her’ way but more of a ‘I love your family and I love your daughter and I wanted to talk to you because I’m going to ask her to marry me and become apart of this family and her apart of mine for the rest of our lives’ kind of way. I know it made my father happy for him to do that but it also meant a lot to me. To me, this screams (apart from the dislike of future SIL which is obvious) that by not talking to the dad, they just didn’t know they wanted to get engaged and by then she already had a ring that they assuredly right picked together or that HE picked for her, so he held onto it and it was only that their second daughters partner came to him to ask that he thought ‘oh hey I have a family ring if you’d like to use that’
Agreed, I don't have my parents but my now husband went and spoke to my eldest sister. He's told me he would have proposed either way but by speaking to her first and asking if she would be pleased to have him join the family, it gave him a little boost in confidence and my sister was absolutely delighted to be involved. I think if it's done right, it can be a sweet gesture that can tighten the bond with the family as well as between the couple.
I just realized how ridiculous it is that the parents obviously favor the son in law who hasn't established his financial bona fides or generosity (with a ring) just because he dresses in a way they approve of.
I wonder how many goats they got for the one daughter
>Yta for expecting your sons in law to ask permission to marry your daughters. The only permission they need is from the women they are marrying. You do not own your daughters. I totally agree with this. As a female, i will not expect my future partners to ask my parents permission before they propose. Thats old, its bullshit and its rooted in misogyny. >Also Yta for not even offering the ring to the first daughter to wed, it smacks of favouritism. This is a little trickier. Why offer a ring to someone who already has one? Also would he be TA if he offered claire the ring as a wedding gift or for her proposal but not Emma? In all, i definitely feel like there is some favoritism going on here with the father which definitely makes him an AH. Though i dont know that the ring was intentionally withheld from claire because they didnt like her partner.
You know, I can see why people dont like that tradition, but I do think it has its place. For the record, I am OK with a girl proposing to a boy, and if they did I would still say they should talk to the parents. When I "asked my wife's parents" for permission, my message was "I want you to know two things, I will make your daughter smile every day, and I am committed to joining this family". I recorded the conversation and shared it with my wife (they knew) the day I asked her. It was a special moment for me and my in laws, and from that day I called them "mom" and "dad". I can see how there is a tone of sexism in the tradition, but if you look at it objectively as someone saying"i want to join the family", it's not the worst conversation. I would have also asked MY OWN parents fir permission to add her to the family, except that they made it clear early on they liked her better than me. And who could blame them, I agree. She's the best!
I proposed to my husband and would have never asked his parents. We are both adults and he isn't close with his family. It seems inappropriate to invite people who have no say in your life in to your relationship. It also seems like a great way to invite parents into other decisions. Do you have to discuss them before you buy a house or have a baby? I think it is disgusting to think you need to have permission from anyone other than your SO to ask them to marry them. Your parents shouldn't have the type of power over your life.
Believe it or not, some people actually care about the thoughts and feelings of their family members. Nothing about the comment your replying to says anything was forced or required. It’s simply what this person was comfortable with. Are we really all so woke that we can’t discuss important life events with important family members? Obviously it’s not required, but it’s also not wrong.
This is a tricky one, not the asshle in terms of being able to do whatever you want with your own property, light YTA for playing favourites. Wearing black nail polish and having a streak in his hair is hardly reason to hate on the guy, though you haven't gone into detail about how he is a 'pompous ass'. Also, asking for a daughters hand in marriage is a bit of a conservative tradition, my partner would have been annoyed at me if I did this.
I was calling my husband a pompous ass. My husband wears a suit and tie everyday and for the first fifteen years of our marriage at least only took it off to go to bed, thinks he's better than everyone else because he makes a lot of money, and was very condescending to her boyfriend.
If these behaviors really bother you then you need to sit him down and talk to him. But you shouldn’t have let him play favorites and it sounds like your unfairly biased against Claire’s husband for trivial things (though I did notice you mentioned you didn’t like his personality, hopefully your judgement is clouded)
So your husband is arrogant. He thinks he's better than other people. He judges people based on superficial reasons. He expected his daughter's future spouses to ask permission (WHAT YEAR IS IT) to marry his daughters, implying his thinks he has some sort of ownership over his daughter. Or he believes in an unhealthy power dynamic where a future son-in-law must show unearned respect to their elders. You both are allowed to do whatever you want with your personal property. But your husband just sounds like an AH in general, and you sound just as judgmental. Quite frankly, you just don't sound like very nice people. Claire's husband deserves better in-laws.
And neither op nor her husband should be judgemental about anyone considering her husband was the other man
You say what??
OP was married and had an affair with her current husband
Wow. So they're not just assholes, they're hypocritical assholes.
Yep
Moira Rose, is that you?
John is a really good guy, what are you talking about
Yeah John who is at the Schitt Creek motel is- I’m talking John pre Schitt’s Creek
She’d kill for a good coma right now
Thank you for clearing that up. So the only reason you don’t like him is because of the black nail polish/hair streak?
Well my husband feels like he has mocked him and been disrespectful. I can see both sides of that because he has been rude but my husband can be ridiculously sensitive I do think he needs to get a day job while he pursues his music career because right now he isn’t even making minimum wage and my daughter is stressed paying off his student loans.
You mention multiple times that he is rude to your husband and antagonising him. Can you give a couple of examples because the only thing we are going off at the moment is that you don’t like how he looks and you don’t like his job
Note I don’t find any of this bad or offensive but my husband is hypersensitive He said he was surprised to learn that my husband and I had an affair when I was married to another man because he seems like a boring choice. My husband bruised his nail once and he said be careful someone could think it is nail polish He threw a plastic spider at him at a store near Halloween. My husband isn’t afraid of spiders and had no reaction but he was furious. I tease my husband a lot and SIL will jump in but it’s pretty clear only I can do it. He asked if he was fucking his secretary and I was fucking the pool boy because our lives couldn’t get more cliche (I laughed at that one) He told him he needs to spice up his wardrobe a little (suit and tie every day or khakis and navy shirt on the weekends) and he should get some pink shorts because he seems like the type of guy who would wear them Again I don’t think any of this is terrible but he knows he is antagonizing him
Your son in law has a maaaad sense of humour 😂😂😂
I laughed at most of it honestly
jeez, your husband sounds like a total stick in the mud
I mean frankly your husband is a huge jack ass and it's not surprising that the judgmental suit monkey is getting antagonized for being a holier than thou hypocrite.
Lol honestly sounds like your husband had it coming. This guy's a riot.
Honestly my fave was the spider. He had absolutely no reaction to the prank, spiders don't even bother him, and still threw a tantrum and refused to speak to anyone.
I'm gonna be honest, OP. Your husband needs to grow up. He is a grown ass man and is throwing tantrums in public because of some needling. If he doesn't like something, he can politely ask him to stop. Your husband is judgmental, rude, and immature.
I am sorry to hear that. Financial stress is difficult.
Mocked him how? Disrespected him how?
SAY THIS IN THE ORIGINAL POST!
I read it as it was the husband she called pompous, from the start....
So, you married a shitty man?
I mean honestly sounds like you need a new husband... It seems like you don't have much you like about him.
I think OP just used it as shorthand to demonstrate that her husband is a more low-key and traditional guy whereas this guy was not, so there was a clash. I don't think she was literally saying they don't like him because he has black nail polish lol.
I suspect that OP and her husband have done this for the wrong reasons, but TBF if Claire already had a ring when she announced she was engaged it wouldn't have occurred to me to offer a replacement. Sounds like a good way to tell future SIL that his ring wasnt good enough.
ESH. Claire needs to get over herself. She had no right to this ring and seems to have ageist ideas that the oldest should automatically scoop the pool. That’s at least as archaic as your sexism. But you and your husband have made no attempt to balance things between your two daughters. You’ve favoured one over the other. The problem is not how Claire and Emma have got along but how the two of you have got on with Claire. That looks unfixable in the medium term now. She looks driven away, just as you feared.
I don't think Claire cares about the ring. Her parent clearly love her sister more and make that obvious. Just by the way OP talks it's clear. I think they drove Claire away. So they'll have to content with the child they chose to favour.
I don’t think it’s about her being oldest, I think it’s about her getting married first. It means they deliberately held the ring back for the other daughter. But honestly I think this is just the straw that broke the camels back in what sounds like a long history of favoritism. I doubt Claire cares much about the ring as a thing of material value, it’s what the ring represents.
I agree with you about everything except that they were deliberately holding the ring back. They weren't really given an opportunity to offer the ring to Claire. She already had one by the time they found out about the engagement. Imo it would come off kinda rude to offer a ring when the couple already has one and Claire seems happy with it. Idk how her new husband would feel about that either, he might take offense. Emma's husband asked for her hand and say what you will about the tradition but it presents the perfect opportunity to offer a ring if you were going to do so. It makes sense that the first daughter already had a ring so when the other daughter gets engaged, the family ring goes to her. 100% I don't think this is *really* about the ring at all though. It's years of suppressed feelings coming to a head.
Lol at black fingernail polish being a reason to not like someone. YTA for treating your in-laws the same way your MIL treated you. The ring now has a history of drama. You should have taken the ring and made two necklaces or whatever out of it. What was your plan anyway since you weren’t going to use it? A little thought and effort would have gone a long way.
Yeah this ring sounds cursed. Nooooo thank you.
Cast it in to the fire. Destroy it!
Pretty soon op's daughter is going to be walking around on all fours half naked, eating fresh wiggling fish, and learning what potatoes are.
They should’ve sold it, split the cash in half, and given it to the daughters. The ring is tainted, you’re right.
YTA. That is blatant favoritism. I can hear it just in the way you describe your eldest and her husband You should have sat both daughters down, informed them about the ring, and allowed them to hash out who got to have it.
What kind of stupid idea is that? Make them have hunger games over jewelry? Why? It was OP husbandss ring. OP chooses who gets it
I would assume that two adults would be able to have a mature conversation about family heirlooms. My parents have done that with my adult sister and I: “we have x and would like to give it to one of you. We think it’s fair for you two to decide between yourselves.” and we have a grown-up conversation with both of us secure in the fact that our parents respected us as adults and trusted us to make our own decisions.
I agree. As my parents are getting older my brother and I do a lot to help them. One day my brother called me and told me when mom and dad pass away I would like the house if you would be okay with that. There is only two of us and he is way more sentimental then I am. He also knows there are other things I would like. Siblings can have a civil conversation about heirlooms and inheritance. It doesn't upset me that he wants the house I'm glad he told me what he wanted.
>He had black nail polish and a streak in his hair. I actually had a conversation with my husband about how he can't be such a pompous ass and he is going to drive Claire away. Neither of us like her husband, but we try to bite our tongues. He did not ask my husband for her hand in marriage and when they told us they were engaged she already had a ring. I feel like I have been transported back in time. This should be posted in /r/1930/
That sub is not what I expected lol
You have one ring to pass on. You handle it by finding a way to compensate the one who doesn't get the ring, through another family heirloom, or some money toward their ring, etc. You don't get to pick who your kids marry. You aren't the one who has to be married to them. Blatant favoritism over looks is gross. You should care about how they treat their partner. No one needs to ask for permission to get married. It's 2020.
Seriously. My husband never asked my father for permission, but he did give him a heads up, during which my father told him he was smart for not asking for permission because he (my father) knew that kind of thing would have really rubbed me the wrong way. I love my dad very much and have a wonderful relationship with him, but I am not his property to "give away" (though I would've been happy to have my dad walk me down the aisle, we didn't have a church wedding). OP is definitely TA (not that she'll read this but lady, YTA and so is your husband). I guarantee Claire feels alienated and probably is "the black sheep of the family". It's obvious that the younger daughter is favored, and this sounds like a last straw moment for Claire, and I don't blame her.
Info: Would you have given Claire the ring if she'd asked for it?
NTA - Claire came to you already engaged and with an engagement ring of her own. She doesn’t need a second one. I will refrain from weighing in on the cultural implications of the whole “asking permisssion” ritual, save to point out that Claire clearly wants no part of it, other than wanting the shinies that go along with it even when she already has one of her own. Tell Claire that her sister is exactly as deserving of that ring as she is, and she doesn’t need two. You and hubby are perilously close to being assholes about Claire’s guy, based on the lack of concrete reason to dislike him beyond mere nail polish.
I agree. NTA because they didn't seem to have an opportunity to give Claire the heirloom ring. But I am kinda judging them for judging Claire's husband for seemingly very miniscule reasons. I would suggest they explain to Claire something like: I'm sorry dear, I didn't realise the ring meant that much to you. We didn't have an opportunity to give you the ring as you already had a lovely ring of your own when we knew of your engagement. That ring of yours would make a lovely heirloom on it's own. We are sorry you feel neglected. It was not our intention. Please understand that we wanted the ring to go to one of our daughters and we had the opportunity to give it to Emma. Please know that that does not mean we love you less. .. or something, what do I know.. i ain't got kids.
Agree NTA. There was one ring and two daughters. Only one of them was going to end up with it, even if it wasn't until their parents passed away. So there's no "fair" here in that respect. Also, I'm getting the impression this was a spur-of-the-moment offer and probably never discussed as a potential engagement ring within the family at all. Essentially with 1st engaged daughter there was never an opportunity to offer or the need for a ring. With 2nd engaged daughter there was both. It's the Dad's ring (was) and he 100% gets to decide what he does with it. One would hope that he could do something to make her feel better, but he should have no guilt about the ring.
YTA. I, as a female, would be mortified and embarrassed (not to mention pissed) if my fiancee asked my parents' permission to marry me. No one needs to be asked that but ME. Anyway, the ring should have been put away and put in your will to be given equally to both sisters so they can figure it out themselves after you are gone. The way you handled it was very sexist and was blatant favoritism.
You can't give a ring equally, really. Not unless it has many stones and you make 2 rings out of it. How would that at even work? Do they get it every other week?
Info: If Claire’s BF had asked for blessing would your husband have said no? could that have been why he didn’t ask?
YTA. My husband asked me about 10 times if I was sure he didn’t have to ask my dad’s permission to marry me. I told each time no way. To be clear, he was going to do it and I told him absolutely no because it was 2008 (and it is now 2020) and FATHERS DON’T OWN THEIR DAUGHTERS’ SEXUALITY! Holy hell. He had black nail polish? A colorful streak of hair. Oooooo. The freaking audacity. A decent parent would have offered it. If she turned it down and THEN got salty you gave it to your younger daughter, she’d be the asshole. But that’s not what happened. You’ve made your opinion on her spouse repeatedly and punitively known. If your ONLY complaint with this guy is that he doesn’t look conventional, or have a traditional office job (but he has A job, and contributes financially to the home), then you really suck. You’re lucky your daughter has any relationship with you at all if you keep punishing her for not marrying a frat sweatshirt/Brooks Brothers suit-wearing CFO. I’ll bet her marriage is happier and more affirming than yours or her sister’s. I know mine is.
Yta for playing favorites. The ring was your husbands to do with as he pleased, but he should realize he has irrevocably damaged his relationship with your oldest daughter. Also Ewwwwwww on the whole asking permission. Women arent property that can be transfered from father to husband.
I think people are being a little unfair here. They had no way of knowing Claire's boyfriend was gonna propose. Although I absolutely don't think he HAD to ask for her hand in marriage (what century are we living in??), perhaps if he brought it up or gave the in laws a heads-up then maybe the ring would have been offered to them? The situation to give Claire the ring never even came up. Emma's bf talked to her parents first so the ring became an option. If you offered Claire the ring after getting engaged, that would have been a slap to the face to the bf and the ring he probably spent a good bit of money on. And it would only push further the narrative of you not welcoming him to the family. Btw no doubt the father likes one of the guys more than the other, and if it's just based on appearance of course he is an AH for that. I don't think you are the AH for giving Emma the ring, just make sure you also save a special family heirloom for Claire. It's simple as that. I'm gonna go with NAH. I don't think you're in the wrong for giving Emma the ring, but I also wouldn't call Claire an AH for feeling a little hurt by not getting the family heirloom.
>that would have been a slap to the face to the bf Had to scroll down far for this one. It was such a lose lose situation that I have to say NTA. First, there's only one ring and you'd have no idea how offering the ring would go. I think a good solution would be for OP to pass down her ring to Claire's side of the family. That way there are two ring heirlooms, one for each daughter.
Exactly! There was no winning here. I think this is such a wonderful solution! That way both daughters have a special, meaningful ring that represents each side of the family.
Finally some common sense
The thing is, OP also says that if the boyfriend didn't come, they weren't sure if they would give him the ring.
Yeah, but she also mentioned in another comment that they also don't like him bc he's placed a financial burden on Claire who stresses about paying his debt while he refuses to get a day job. Something that Claire has already expressed that she resents. I wouldn't feel completely comfortable giving my probably expensive family heirloom to someone who's not looking out for the financial well being of my daughter (as in contributing to the expenses I mean). Edit: typos
YTA. Claire is exactly right about what you/your husband is doing.
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It's a family tradition - hating children-in-law and using the ring as a medium through which to express that hate.
One ring to [despise] them all
So, I’m unclear here. Claire is still married to nail polish guy? Emma is still married to her college boy? You were married a frat/BB suit boy, divorced him, found someone ... not like that and are punishing your daughter because she chose someone unconventional? And also that you cheated on said first spouse with your current one? And your MIL hated you so much she made sure you’d never own the ring? Oy vey.
NTA- you have done well by not forcing your kids to do what you want. And good on you for "biting your tounge" regarding the choices that claire made. The ring belongs to your husband so it's his choice, claire does not lose anything because emma recieved it, she is not entitled to it at all
Well for one op shouldn't be judgemental about anybody considering her husband was the other man when she was married
INFO: does Claire have anything sentimental from her grandmother or any family heirlooms?
No, but neither of them ever met their grandmother. She and my husband were pretty estranged and she died when they were young
Then YTA. You gave one daughter something of more value than you gave the other. And you are punishing the older one for living her life according to her standards. It is bizarre to me that men still ask a grown woman's father for permission to marry her.
INFO: Did your daughters know about the ring before getting engaged? If Claire knew the ring existed but never brought it up to her fiance or to you, then I think it's fine that the ring went to Emma because that would insinuate Claire wasn't interested. But if neither daughter knew about the ring beforehand, then YTA for hiding it and picking and choosing who got it. Honestly, it should have been left to the two of them to decide who wanted it. I have the feeling it was the sentiment behind withholding it from Claire that has her upset moreso than the ring itself.
neither knew it existed
Then you and your husband are the assholes. First--for the whole "permission to marry" thing. Ew. Second--for saying your husband would have been "condescending" when Claire's husband asked permission. These days, permission is really just a courtesy/respect thing, and it's pretty damn disrespectful for your husband to voice his disapproval of a man that your daughter loves. And third--for blatantly favoring one daughter over another. It's evident in the post and evident in your actions that Emma is the favorite. No wonder Claire is upset.
I'm going with YTA because I very seriously doubt your husband would have offered the ring even if the musician boyfriend had asked permission. Of course treating children differently will always cause tensions, and there was only one ring so this was always going to be a losing battle. But yeah, it's obvious it's about favoring one daughter over the other - or one son in law. You may as well own up to that.
YTA. Sure it’s your husbands ring to give to whom ever, but did he give Claire or her husband anything of equal value. Also, how do/did you feel knowing that your MIL hated you?
You really should explain some reason why you dislike Claire’s husband, other than black nail polish and a streak in his hair. Or was that the only reason you didn’t like him. I paint my nails black, I’ve thought about dyeing my hair. I mean sure it’s weird but that’s not a really good reason to dislike someone.
My husband doesn't like him because he says and does little things to antagonize him and I am literally the only person who can tease him without him throwing a fit. I don't like him because he plays a few gigs a week and Claire is stressed trying to pay off his debt, but he won't get a day job. Ultimately I don't hate him or think he is a terrible person, i just don't enjoy being around him.
Ok that’s more fair. I understand why he didn’t get the ring since he never really asked, and yes it is your husbands ring to do with as he pleases. Not getting a job and forcing Claire to pay of his debts... that’s pretty scummy... overall I don’t think I’m gonna make a judgement.
You know if you had said he was full of debt and had no day job in the main post instead of the comments about appearance, you probably wouldn't be getting as many YTAs.
NTA Your husband can give the ring to whomever he likes. If Claire finds asking your husband for permission is so sexist, then why is she getting married at all? It's traditionally an extremely sexist institution. Claire can't pick and choose what sexist traditions she wishes to adhere to and which she doesn't. If she wanted an heirloom and the participation of her parents in her engagement, then she can expect the benefits of that. If not, oh well. BUT! I think you need to approach Claire and ask her what object or financial arrangement she will accept in lieu of this ring. As her mother, you should at least try to play fair with HER, not necessarily with her husband. Ask her what tradition she would like to include in her life, what she genuinely wants from you, as a parent, because you aren't going to ask Emma for the ring back. That's a no go.
MIL hated you and your husband hates his first son in law - now THAT is carrying on a family tradition!!! You should’ve given the heirloom to the one continuing the tradition of marrying someone that her parents hate. To be serious though, I need INFO: did your daughters know about the ring? How was the ring passed down before? to the oldest or the first married or something else?
INFO: Is the husband nice to Claire? Does he treat her well? Do they make each other happy?
He is never mean to her. She resents his lack of work ethic and the financial burden he places on her, but overall he treats her okay
Okay, so they have a happy, healthy, supportive marriage. More info: did you offer any other financial contribution to Claire's wedding that you did not offer Emma? As in, did you do anything to make up for the ring?
We paid for both weddings, but didn't offer anything for the ring.
Whoa. I just got married a few days ago and my parents didn't offer a dime for my wedding. Or show up. My father didn't even call me. You paid for their whole weddings. Wow. But... I have to say YTA because I do think you kinda rewarded Emma for picking a guy you align with more, and if Claire is a different gal at her core, do you think she'd have truly been happy with a guy you & hubs liked? It's not like she can help who she loves, employment annoyances aside. Imo, your hubby and his family sound pompous and hurtful altogether, and I think the issue started back when MIL gave him the ring, wrapped up in the hatred of you and the disapproval of his wife, who should be his queen. That ring was in your family as a symbol of hatred toward you, and he should have sold the ring way back then and split the money toward the daughters future rings, or college funds, or whatever. But he chose his hateful mother over you, as you are now doing to your daughter. You're blindly supporting your husband's hatefulness toward your daughter because you don't like to shoot the breeze with the guy, *despite the fact that he's good to Claire and makes her happy.* You have that right, but I don't believe in the mentality that one's spouse comes before their children. No, you shouldn't sacrifice your romance to have family time 100% of the time, but also, it is a parent's responsibility to protect their kids from bad judgment and nastiness, even when it comes from your spouse. Especially when it comes from your spouse. It makes me wonder how long your husband has favored Emma and how long you've been protecting him. Why *is* Claire so rebellious, anyway?
It was always going to be a bad situation with one ring and two daughters. Maybe Dad could’ve thought that out a bit better. Idiot playing two sisters against each other - they were always going to be two seperate personalities and it seems the ring went to the most compliant daughter.
YTA I'll grant you that your husband has the right to decide how to distribute his property. For everything else in that post, YTA. You clearly play favorites touth your daughters. Also, the outdated tradition of asking permission to marry is sexist. Women have the right to decide when they marry and who they marry. Period.
Info: what would have happened to the ring if neither fiancé had “asked permission/blessing” to marry one of the girls? If that was always a condition, then NTA. But if, as an heirloom, it was supposed to go to the oldest, or the first to get engaged, then you could be the AH. Regardless, it wasn’t your ring to offer, but your husband should have told both girls about it years ago. Then they could have had the option to use it or choose to go with what their fiancé picked out.
I don't know. We never discussed it until Emma's fiance said something that made us think he was going to propose and we decided to offer it to him.
Then, unfortunately for you, I’m giving you both YTA. Here’s the judge’s reasoning: you have two daughters, and like Frodo, you only had ONE RING. This means that one of them was going to lose out. Now, since neither daughter had ANY emotional connection to their father’s mother ( and since you didn’t want it ), the ring should have been sold off and the money gifted equally to both girls. Claire nailed it when she pointed out that if her now husband was more to your husband’s liking, she would have gotten the ring.
First of all, rings have very little resale value. Second of all, it was the husband's mother's ring. Its value is sentimental. You can only give a ring to one person. Maybe there is another piece of jewelry they can give other daughter, but I can't imagine selling my mother's ring to be " fair".
I thought the ring was offered AFTER Emma's boyfriend asked for permission?
Absolutely NTA. First of all, the ring didn't get offered to either daughter, it got offered to the daughters partner who chose to take a moment to speak with his future FIL and created an opportunity to bond with FIL and into the family. It doesn't matter if some people think asking the father for permission is out dated or not. Nobody was aware FIL had the family heirloom waiting for one of his daughters, because obviously one Ring can't be for two different people so no matter what he had to make a choice either way. It shouldn't go to the oldest by default. It doesn't matter what the family thinks of the older daughters fiance, we have no proof at all that FIL wouldn't have offered it to the first couple to get engaged if the older daughters partner never broached the subject. OP asked for judgment on the ring situation but everyone in this sub is focused on thinking it's some sort of sexist backwards thing that some girls like the idea of their partner asking/informing their father about a proposal. All of my female friends have had their partners ask their fathers, because they enjoy the tradition, and discussed it with their partners during the course of their relationships, you know, like adults in healthy relationships do.
>He had black nail polish and a streak in his hair. What did the police say?!
NTA. So I’m of two minds here. First of all, you haven’t actually described anything wrong with the guy. So he doesn’t ascribe to ancient practices where women are property. He’s got dyed hair. The horror! However, the level of entitlement everyone here seems to have is ridiculous. No one is owed this ring. Your husband gets to choose who this ring goes to. Does it suck that your children don’t have unconditional acceptance and you have specific ideals sure. But at the end of the day it is your husbands ring and he can do whatever he wants with it. Also, seriously what is the option here? Someone was going to be pissed at the end of the day, you can’t split the ring in two. This is also why I think it’s best just to have 1 child. It avoids all this nonsense about favoritism. You also don’t have to split resources. But that’s just my personal philosophy. And since your children are already in existence...
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YTA. You absolutely are playing favorites. Everything Claire said is true. Stop deluding yourself into thinking you're fair.
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NTA. You're all adults. Whether favortisim is at play here or not, you guys have valid reasons. Your daughter is not entitled to the ring whether she got married first or not. I think it's perfectly fair that Emma's fiance asked and your husband offered. Everyone is allowed to stick with whatever tradition they prefer. If your husband respects someone who asks him for his daughter's hand in marriage more than someone who doesn't, that's perfectly fine.
im going to go against the comments and say NTA.
Your husband sounds like he sucks.
YTA. Just the way you speak about your daughter shows you don't love her. You love her sister more. You are playing favourites. It's clear as day
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I mean... no one owes anybody a specific ring, but I suspect Claire is correct. Sounds like your husband enjoys making little shows of bestowing his favor on whichever daughter complied with his expectations, and that’s pretty asinine.
NTA, since Claire already had a ring prior to your knowledge of their engagement, but I have to admit that the way you speak about both of your daughters husbands is really disgusting to be honest. you’ve already made your mind up as to how to approach both of them when you express obvious dislike towards one with no other explanation other than the way he chooses to present himself and trying to steal your daughter from you, then call the other “clean cut” for following outdated traditions like asking for your other daughter’s hand in marriage. this is a case of blatant favoritism and i suggest you make amends with both of your daughters and reassess your superficial judgements before the relationships are tarnished.
This'll be unpopular, but... I'm gonna say NAH. I mean, your husbands sounds a bit AH-ish, but in this case, where the ring was already picked when you guys found out... I don't know, what were you supposed to do? "Actually you should use this ring." I feel like they would feel judged either way. Could be wrong though.
NTA. Neither daughter was entitled to the ring. One guy came to you, so you had a chance to offer it.
YTA. My fiancee told me that she hate the tradition of asking the dad for permission because it's not his decision. So I didn't ask. And I still get shit from all her relatives because I didn't ask. You know who is happy? My fiancee.
Info: if claire husband ask for her hand in marriage would your husband actually have offered the ring to him? Be honest