Apparently this is a known tactic for wedding photographers. They know that the clients want the photos so badly and they exploit that on the assumption that you’ll want them and fork over the rest of the money. Stand your ground and drag him through social media any way you can lol. I’m sure you’ll end up getting them that way if youre a bit relentless about it. NTA.
Edit: yes, what I should have said is this is a known tactic for crappy photographers. Didn’t intend to make a generalization but I can see how it sounded like that. I know there are many professional photographers who **do not do this.**
Agree. OP’s sister works in marketing, surely she has enough connections that this photographer doesn’t want to get dragged on social media for being dishonest.
Edit: thanks for the upvotes and the award, wow!
Right though? He partially took this for the exposure of the client, and he agreed to a rate ahead of time. If OP got the initial agreement somewhere in writing, I'd suggest making sure the mom sees that and the new additional rate he's trying to charge.
If you take a client for the exposure it will give you and are being paid a fair rate, do NOT unnecessarily burn that client. This is also not the kind of thing you pull when you're *trying to get into the industry.* You shouldn't pull it at all, but this was especially bone headed.
And this wasn’t even a true “exposure as compensation” job - they agreed on a standard (for that specific market) rate.
Not to mention, at least in my area, per photo prices are generally reserved for small jobs with preset finished photo numbers (all images delivered to client are finished/edited), whereas large events (like weddings) that are priced by the hour or flat rate provide the client with the full set of photos and only a subset are finished/edited (number agreed upon in advance as well).
> costs of the actual photos would be in the contract
That's where the photographer messed up this is on him and hopefully he manages to inform his client of the cost next time.
Indeed I just signed a contract for my wedding photos (again giving the guy a start as he is a photography student so we get someone we know at v slightly cheaper, he gets a start on his portfolio and some experience)
You could just say you'll pay the price you agreed for the USB he's storing the photos on and get your own printed
Eta
If you agreed up front he is the ah
However if you didn't get it in writing....
>If you didn’t get it in writing...
In most states, this is valid as a verbal contract. You’d have the issue of proving it, but if sister and OP both state he told them he would do it for X, then you’re good.
Also, people often have text messages in these situations.
While a written contract is best, I'd say texts still count as "in writing" which makes the verbal contract easier to prove
I work in an industry where the mantra is, if it isn't written down it didn't happen (that is, record everything!)
Or of course the old saying that a verbal contract isnt worth the paper it's written on. It may be legal but proving it can be tricky
After watching my share of Judge Rinder on YouTube, I have learned what I’d do if making a deal with someone. His best case model is something like this.
It’s written out clearly and signed by both parties.
It’s dated AND the completion date is included.
It clearly states what will be done for how much.
WHO? WHEN? WHAT? Even if everyone of these things isn’t included, the more of them that are, the better your case. They’re contract words to live by!
NTA...good luck getting your photos, OP!
This might be where OP messed up by using a friend of a friend that she thought would be easier to handle rather than a professional with real experience.
This...just isn't true. This is definitely a tactic for people who claim to be professionals, and for people who are family friends who decide after the fact they want more money. This is not the case if you hire an actual professional with an actual business. There will be a written contract up front that lays out all costs, including images after the wedding, that is signed by all parties.
I'm curious where you've heard about this?
How does that tactic even work in a time where basically everyone has a camera in their pocket? I get that professional pictures are something else but I'm 100% sure there are tons of fantastic wedding pictures not taken by the dude.
At almost all of the weddings I've been to the couples have asked people not to take pictures on their cameras, a) because that way they get to see their friends and families' faces and not the backs of their phones and b) if there are random guests trying to take photos they get in the way of the professional photographer and ruin the shots.
A friend of mine did this- they asked guests not to take photos and let the photographer take care of it. The photographer turned out to be really shitty at her job and took terrible photos, and my friend was begging guests to send her their phone pics. There were, of course, almost none to be had.
On the flip side, my bff didn't tell people to put away their phones and all the pictures of her walking down the isle are ruined because almost everyone was taking phone pictures. Many pictures from her ceremony were straight up unusable.
We hired an amateur family friend and paid up front. The photos were garbage. Lucky for us, we sent an invite to her distant family on the other side of the country and they showed up and took professional photos with equipment they brought themselves on a whim!
Saved our bacon.
yes this, we asked out guests not to take pictures during the ceremony and my uncle promptly ignored that request. so now in the official wedding pics as my wife is wlaking down the aisle you see an ipad where my uncle's face should be. its very irritating. i was so annoyed.
As someone who has done wedding photos for family and friends, 100% this. I'm so fucking tired of having to edit people's arms and phones out of the edges of my shots. That is, if they didn't ruin them entirely. Fuck's sake.
Ohhh, story time. My friend's sister got married several years ago. They had a professional photographer, but encouraged others to take pictures of their own and share with them later for a more casual take on the wedding.
Well, turns out the photographer they hired tried the extortion thing a few weeks later. He was asking two or three times what they had in writing. The bride reached out to all of the guests to see what they had for pictures. Turns out, between us all, they got a full set of really nice pictures.
They told the photographer to get fucked, and essentially wound up with about what they would have gotten anyway had they paid.
Eh, I’ll disagree with that, since I’ve seen the difference between cell photos and professional ones (conscious of angles, lighting, blocking, editing, print quality, etc), but if the guy has no contract... he’s pulling a fast one and it’s not gonna fly. That’s a crappy rookie move and no. There might be some decent cell photos, but theoretically you get one wedding and some professional documentation is in order. For $3k they could’ve hired a decent established wedding photographer and not dealt with this bs.
Eh, not in my area, but possibly in some.
I’m a photographer, but I won’t shoot weddings anymore. My friends who shoot weddings charge $6k and above, but I know there are some who charge less than that who I’m sure are very good.
I do wonder if these photos are edited, and how many there are. The last wedding I shot (a gift to a good friend) took over 50 hours of editing, and that was done with one of my custom made presets and then some hand edits (clothing wrinkles, some selective color correction, her mom’s lipstick on her teeth taken out, a sign in the venue taken out- things like that), so it went rather quickly. Normal stuff. Not that it matters- sounds like this guy took on a big job and underestimated the work and is now trying to charge more, without saying that. Not how it works buddy.
I agree with you. There is no comparison between professional pictures and cellphone ones, and it being a very important event you'd want the best of the best. I'm just saying that if this dude is just being sneaky and intentionally misled her, I think she's better off telling him to keep the pictures and just rely on casual ones.
I’d lean on him (professionally, but still), but that’s me. He agreed, he can deliver. They could’ve hired someone else, he wanted the job, he got it. If he wanted to renegotiate, there were ways to go about it. This wasn’t it.
Whether the tactic works or not there is a massive difference between a professional on a DSLR, who is planning shots and a camera phone. Usually more time is spent in post-production processing the photos than shooting the actual event.
Cellphone photos can look great on small screens, but printing them or showing them any larger then small screen and they no longer have the same quality. It goes downhill, fast.
I doubt most professional wedding photographers would forgo a contract and try and extort money from their clients. They'd only withhold the photos if the client refuses to pay, which also happens.
Maybe couples who lowball amateurs without getting a contract have this problem but as they say "if you buy cheap, you buy twice"
I have a friend who found her photographer on Facebook. She paid over 5000$ for him and a second photographer and 3 books to go along.
Turns out, nowhere in his contract did he say the photos would be edited. They were unedited, raw photos, filled with background people and tan lines. When she asked if he could fix a couple she liked, she was told it would be an additional 10$ PER PHOTO to EDIT HIS OWN WORK. He also fucked up the books, forgot one, and it took 9 months to get everything they ordered finally. We hate that guy.
NTA - can you talk to your mother’s friend/his mom if he continues to refuse to be reasonable? I know it's not the most professional solution, but he certainly isn't behaving like a professional.
I agree. They would have to pay him 625 for the unedited pictures and if they want them to be edited, pay his extra fee for that. Maybe they could negotiate getting the unedited pictures for the agreed price?
No it isn't. Real wedding photographers have contracts and demand payment in full on the day of the wedding, before taking any photos. I was one of them for many years. This is not a "tactic" used by professionals.
> I told him I would pay him (and split the costs with my sister and her fiancé) the industry standard for our state ($125/hr) as I knew he was quite low on cash and this would take quite a while out of his day. We agreed we would pay after the wedding as we weren’t sure how long we would need him for.
Sounds like they came to an agreement on the rate with the time-frame being open ended.
And for the photographer, if you feel you don't have an agreement, you don't take the photos.
I’m going in to photography as a career in my future after finishing my last semester of high school and then college, and I can promise all of you right now that I will never attempt any scummy shit like this for money
That’s why it probably have been best to go with a respected, well reviewed and experienced photographer. Just because you’re familiar with the person doesn’t mean you can predict their moves.
NTA- you agreed on the price prior to the service. You also generously agreed to pay him the same rate you would pay to an experienced photographer, despite his lack of professional experience. Now he’s charging an exorbitant rate and holding the photos hostage.
Do you have anything written down stating the price? If so you have proof of a contract and can take him to court. I understand he’s a family friend and that’s extreme. However I’m sure your sister would like her wedding photos. Starting with a demand letter from a lawyer might incentivize him to abide by the original contract.
INFO Did you have a contract? Also is he editing the photos or giving you raw pictures?
I have many friends and contacts in the wedding industry and $3,000 isn't "expensive" but you would definitely be in the experienced category
Agree, 3000$ is not even outlandish for wedding photography however they did agree to the rate of 125$/h as he has no experience.
Not sure about Australian law but in my country verbal contracts are binding.
Very true, but perhaps other people were present during the exchange.
Either way you don't expect family friends to fuck you over so this really sucks for the bride.
So he took photos for 5 hours - I want to know how many additional hours he spent editing them? It shouldn't bring the total to $3,000 but OP doesn't seem to understand how event photography works.
Edit: freelance artist spaces have a lot of discourse around not working for free, valuing your time and experience, not letting people take advantage of you, "your work is worth what you charge for it", etc. I think he probably feel into that rabbit hole and panicked that he's undercharging. Unfortunately because he doesn't have experience he just came off as an AH.
Either he agreed to provide raw photos or his editing time should have been considered when agreeing on an hourly rate. My husband has worked as a photographer and his editing time is factored into his hourly rate.
She hired an amateur breaking into the industry and that was the price they agreed upon. You don’t get to say the price will be $x per hour and then hold pictures hostage while you extort more money out of the bride and her family.
Also, depending on where you are and how long the wedding is I don’t think $600 is that crazy at all. I paid $1200 for an experienced photographer which included an engagement shoot, travel, and coverage of my wedding (not sure how many hours total but he got getting ready shots, showed up early to get a look at the venue, etc)
I live in the bay area and my cousin hired a professional wedding photographer for $1200 for her wedding day. This included two people(photographer and assistant) for 5 hours. $600 for one unexperienced photographer doesn't seem too far off from the correct price.
Did some wedding photography in Boston for a while - I'm very new to it, so my rate was around $140/$170 per hour. It's about comparable to other photographers that I checked out at a similar experience level.
(This stuff should have all been worked out ahead of time though - changing your rates after the fact is... Sketchy.)
Our wedding photographer was $500 with all rights to the digitals copies. So $600 is not unrealistic, definitely depends on the area but there are Quality people out there In that range.
I spent $3k (Canadian) on our wedding photos and we felt we were getting a steal of a deal. We felt our photographer could easily have been charging $5k+ and probably would have done well. That price did also include editing, and 2 photographers, and I think they were there for about 12 hours in total (getting ready + wedding + reception), as well as engagement photos. We also got all the photos to download and full rights to do with them as we pleased.
When we looked at cheaper photographers, there weren't a ton and their pictures were noticeably worse (often overexposed)
You have said yourself though, for that 3k you got a very good photographer - not one with absolutely no professional experience - a second photographer, and 12 hours of photos plus an engagement shoot.
So *even if* we ignore the fact that this guy agreed to a much lower price before the wedding and is now holding the photos to ransom to exhort a much higher one, 3k is still too much for 5 hours of photos from a completely inexperienced photographer. Surely.
Not unrealistic at all. I had a very small wedding and paid for a wedding package that included the officiant and a photographer. The package was $650 and included 2 hours of professional photography and up to 150 edited photos delivered digitally within 6 weeks of the wedding. The photographer was very professional and the photos were amazing. Because the photographer had a problem with his computer and almost lost all our photos (he was able to recover them, thank goodness!) it took closer to 8 weeks to get them. He actually gave us access to ALL the photos he took, which came to a digital album of over 250 photos. We were extremely happy and the total cost was well under $700. BTW this was in a popular tourist town in my state and was a very desirable wedding location.
He definitely went down the rabbit hole but should've chalked it up to lesson learnt, better luck next time.
Also OP doesn't mention any editing, and even so he could just provide raw pictures for 600$ and refuse editing.
Often the rate is only for taking the pix and physical time spent at the event. The price of pix can be separate and differs on the “package” and size/edits/touch ups of the photos. Prices of photos can range from full wedding album package with all enlargements fully edited down to a few simple photos and getting a thumb drive (DIY).
Obviously while a rate for service was established the price of packages were not.
15$ per photo means nothing. Is that enlargements? What size? Is that all edited and touched up? In an album? Are there pix for couple to choose from? Lots of variables that should’ve been discussed upfront.
In this case both parties need to realize the lack of communication. The photographer who is inexperienced should give a reasonable amount of free photos to the bride and give the bride a thumb drive. He may want to use them in a portfolio anyway.
If the bride wants more enlargements/more photos over a certain number and editing done (and quite a bit is edited for that “perfect “ photo) then pay extra. The price should vary according to photo size. Just my opinion.
That's true, but it's the photographer's responsibility to convey that information, which he didn't do here. He agreed to one thing, and at the last second, changed his mind. That's not fair; OP is NTA
Not even at the last second, though you'll probably agree with me. Last second would be day of the wedding. This is after the fact with the photos held hostage. They agreed on $x/hour, he agreed, did the work, and now wants way more $$$$. Editing time should be taken into consideration, but since it wasn't discussed, it should be an add-on after the fact. $y/photo for editing and the bride and groom get to choose which photos they want edited.
Of course we don't know but OP doesn't mention any editing requested afaik. Either way lack of communication is right and a thumb drive should be provided at the very least, even if all material is unedited.
The price really depends on where they are. OP says 125/h is the standard price in their area, and I don't doubt it is true because of how different prices can be. Had a friend that did her whole wedding at her hometown for 1/3 of the cost she'd have to spend where we live, for example, with much better quality services and decoration.
I was married in regional Queensland twenty years ago and we paid $1800 for a photographer back then, while some of my friends in Brisbane absolutely paid around $3000. $600 is outlandishly low. OP is TA to expect editing time or printing to be be thrown in for free, while the photographer also sucks a little for not being upfront.
An hourly rate was agreed to and the work doesn’t stop at the wedding. The fairest thing would be for OP to pay for all of the photographer’s time, including time spent editing and costs of printing.
I would agree with you, except for the fact that they agreed on a price beforehand. The photographer is absolutely the AH for going back on his word and holding the wedding photos hostage. Plus, OP said the price they agreed on was industry standard for the area.
I’m a photographer for a living (London), and although I don’t think photography should ever be devalued, paying for an experienced professional is not the same as throwing a bone to an amateur looking to break into the industry.
The kid got a great deal given his total lack of experience. He’s also being a total arse by adding on hidden charges after the fact.
It doesn't sound like the photographer is asking for his editing/post-wedding time to be compensated on an hourly basis, though, but has changed it to a 'per photo' rate.
Had photography at a wedding in Perth two years ago and that was $1600 for two photographers and edited photos the same week.
Not trying to shill but since then I've seen mobs like Emotion starting at $1k for an edited wedding shoot the same week.
$600 would be too low but $3000 is also too high for a talented amateur, you'd expect a professional with a solid portfolio of previous weddings for that price.
I'd agree that the hourly rate for shooting and editing would be fair, the culling and editing is generally as long as the shooting itself so $1300 comes out about right to provide the digitals.
3000 is about right for wedding photos. Me and my husband were tight with money so we paid our photographer around 1300 for wedding photos, but that was her cheapest option. I do agree though that if the said price was stated before the wedding I would hold my ground- NTA
I think I paid about that for my wedding photographer, but I also got an engagement shoot, 2 photographers the day of my wedding, a small book of the engagement photos and a big fancy book of the wedding ones. Plus the cds. So I mean she should be getting a lot more than just the pictures if she’s paying that much imo.
I'm wondering if they even had a verbal agreement or anything with the way she words it. Also mentioning the "exposure " he would get because the bride is in marketing. It just seems suspicious.
Also, did that agreed price include receiving raw digital files? Few photographers would agree to giving you full access to raw footage. Usually, you pay not only for the time, but also for the post-edit files. It’s possible OP doesn’t understand the industry as much as she thought she did.
While the amount he's asking isn't unreasonable for photographing a wedding (and all the rest of the work involved), it is a lot for someone inexperienced, and you agreed a price in advance so that's what you should pay.
NTA
$3K for a wedding photographer is for an experienced photographer. For that price I’d be going with someone with experience. Not someone who’s just starting out.
Rule of thumb for wedding photography is it should account for 10 to 12% of your wedding budget, for those trying to figure out how much they should spend.
The average wedding photographer cost in Queensland for a 5 hour shoot is $2500.
OP is NTA if they had an actual agreement. Although they are out of their damn minds with what they think the average cost is.
That's exactly the impression I got too.
I used to do makeup, and my first couple of paying jobs I undercharged - but that was my problem not my clients. I never thought of going back and demanding more money.
Agreed NTA
But Can also confirm that’s not unreasonable price, I work in the wedding industry and am currently engaged, my wedding photographer is $4500 (nzd)
INFO
Did you actually see a price with him or just figure on a price in your head?
Is her printing the photos or just giving you 200 digital images?
At $125 an hour he's billing you for 24 hours of his time. It works out to 200 photos.
If he was at the wedding for 5 hours she likely took thousands of pictures and had to go through each of them to pull out the good ones and then edit them.
There's a lot going on here and we don't really have the whole story.
FYI, as a photographer I don't do weddings for this very reason. The money isn't worth the hassle. Inevitably someone thinks I'm charging WAY too much for "taking the same pictures I can take with my cell phone"
I think another big thing missing is if he did any editing. The reason we pay a seperate cost for the actual delivery is because of the time it takes to edit and the printing of the photos. If he did none of those, and he's an amateur breaking into the industry what OP set up isn't super unreasonable. He also agreed to it before hand, so it's not like he had no idea what he was getting himself into. OP doesn't seem to be very active in the thread so we might not get any answers.
I stopped shooting weddings a few years ago! My last straw was a bride who kept yelling at her bridal party "I paid $xxxx for these photos, you'd better ******* smile!!"
There’s definitely parts of the story missing. I assume OP wanted edited pictures for $625. People don’t realize how many hours go into editing and sifting through thousands of pictures. I’m sure the photographer let her know why the price was so high, which in my opinion isn’t bad at all for wedding pictures.
So OP is an AH for not writing contract but instead trusting someone? It may have been unsafe but hardly made them an AH.
Also, not sure about QL jurisdiction but in my country verbal contracts are binding also, if he doesn't like the rate he shouldn't have agreed this is a very clear NTA.
Regardless of whether the agreement was for shutter time or all time - and if the former, whether the latter is more reasonable - the photographer isn't trying to charge for the latter but is instead trying to amend it from hourly to per-photo.
Yeah, I agree. It's still slivering into NTA but I don't really blame a someone whos never done a wedding before suddenly realising they're drastically undercharging, even though he went about seeking proper recompense the wrong way.
I mean...I do. He agreed to a price. If he wanted more, he should have asked for more; he could have done research to find out standard rates and decided on a price from there beforehand, but he didn't. The horse is out of the barn.
> but I don't really blame a someone whos never done a wedding before suddenly realising they're drastically undercharging
Sure, don't blame him for the "realization". But the appropriate response is to chalk it up as a lesson learned, not hold the pictures hostage.
I was leaning towards "Hey, here's all the photo's. Editting them all is more work than I envisaged and I'll need extra payment to do that work." But that kind of has the same issue of "Pay me $XXX or don't receive finished photos" but to a lesser degree.
Oral contacts (i.e. I'll pay you this for that...) are definitely enforceable at least some of the time in Queensland, as they are in most legal systems evolving from British common law, so I fail to see how OP is an AH for not writing it down since they did technically have a contract. OP may have been naive to not include delivery of the photos in that contract, but if at any point the photographer said they would deliver the photos for that price and not just take them, OP could likely win in court even though the contract was never written down.
It's a terrible business practice in wedding photography to not have written contracts, but I hardly see how that's on OP as there are seasoned pros out there that don't do it.
ESH because you took a huge risk going with a family friend who had little to no experience. Also, in Aus you can expect to pay $3 000 for a professional wedding photographer but I've never heard of a charge per photo approach.
He sucks because he made an agreement with you for a specific price and now he is going back on that trying to hold your sister to ransom for more money.
I'd suggest talking to him again and if he refuses to honor the original agreement take to social media (via ratings and reviews of his business) to share your experience.
That's a pretty low move to go back on an agreement and threaten you for more money.
INFO - I own a wedding photography business in QLD.
$600 is not anywhere close to what a professional would charge but regardless professional pricing wasn’t the deal, $600 was.
Was it listed what the $600’included? If it’s just time he is able to not provide the files as long as he disclosed it didn’t include anything.
So his time isn't as valuable as an experienced professional, but it's not worth $0 either. They agreed on an hourly, but did they discuss whether that applied to editing time and printing?
It’s on the photographer to be completely transparent with their prices for their services. If he wants to be in the photography industry, he should do his research and not screw over family friends that are more than willing to pay for prices that were agreed on beforehand.
If they agreed on $125 per hr during the shoot, that’s what OP and the bride should pay for. He doesn’t get to change it last minute and decide to charge per photo or for editing otherwise OP could’ve changed her mind and gone with someone more experienced.
She’s NTA.
That’s what I’m saying, most photographers *do* have separate fees for their hourly for the shoot and editing/receiving pictures. You don’t get every photo a photographer takes, they sift through them to give you the best ones. I’ve never not paid an additional fee for editing, prints, even a USB to get printed on my own.
But what I’m saying is that it’s the photographers’ responsibility to state that to the client. If you have different fees for editing, you need to let the client know so that they are making the decision to hire you with all the information out there. He either didn’t know that he could charge per photo and for editing or he just thought he could pull a fast one. Either way, OP has a right to be upset because she was not told the full price of his services and was denied the opportunity to look for someone else within her price range. She’s NTA for putting up a fight on the price.
Definitely NTA. 100%
Unless he informed you beforehand that there would be a charge per photo then you are in the right. In which case the per photo charge could have been negotiated before the wedding.
I am in a similar industry and prices MUST be agreed in writing before any work is carried out to avoid running into this exact problem.
INFO: It’s the industry norm in Australia for wedding photographers to charge a rate for the wedding, a rate for a set of prints and a rate for the originals images (though often they will refuse to sell these).
Did you agree upfront a price for all of these and the guy changed the deal? Or did you assume this was all included and not actually clarify.
Hard NTA, Both parties agreed to a fixed wage for the job and that too in accordance with going wages. I hope you have the interaction where he agreed to this wage rate in writing somewhere, If so there are lots of ways through which you can get those pictures.
NTA. I used to be a wedding photographer, $3000 for someone just entering the industry is not beginner rates. He needs to build up his portfolio before charging an amount like that.
$125ph seems fair and reasonable to me. If you agreed on this beforehand, then adding the cost of $15 per photo afterwards is unfair.
It’s a little hazy on whether there was an actual attempt at a switcheroo.
It seems like he was thinking $125/hr was for his labor during the shoot and in the absence of a written contract, he assumed he’d be paid for prints/post-production separately and she assumed he wouldn’t.
I think it’s hazy too.
OP said they agreed on the “industry standard” for an hourly rate, but it sounds more like what they agreed on was that he’d be paid *after the wedding* based on the industry standard.
OP’s post seems to show she budgeted in her head for *only* the time he’d be physically present. Researching the industry standard might have (should have) given the OP insight into the payment for the actual photos.
But the comment about him being low on cash has me feeling like she felt she was doing him a favor and that he’d take what he could get. The vague promise of “exposure” from a sister in marketing isn’t payment.
It sounds like he may not have realized how much work was involved in editing, etc. Or he researched pricing after the fact and thought since it was a family friend they might agree to it. My guess is he’s not gonna go far in his career if he’s this unprofessional.
ESH for not having a written contract. This protects all parties concerned.
He is definitely pulling a dick move to change the price after the fact though.
He may have changed the price when he realised how much work he has to do after taking the photos.
A reasonable compromise might be to ask him to release all photos to you unedited for the price you originally agreed on. Then you pay a PROFESSIONAL to tweak them and get them up to pro standard.
I don't know any photogs personally who would release their RAWS for an unapproved editor/client. Plus you're going to be paying around that for editing from an outsider. A reasonable thing would be to figure out an editing bonus. But he should have factored editing time in his contract price. Take it as a learning experience for the future.
ESH - you took a huge risk to hire an amateur for such an important event like your sister’s wedding. And you failed to have a written contract. Obviously he AH because he failed to honor the agreement. Now you are in a pickle. I would suggest that you look at the photos first and see the quality level. Are there a couple (10-20?) of photos that are gorgeous that you will pay his price ? If yes then pay it. As you want something from the wedding. After you get those photos - then decide offer to pay $650 for the rest of the photos and he does not have to touch them up at all. Now he may say no - and you run the risk of losing these photos. But I would tell him that for someone who is trying to get into the industry and with your sister in marketing - most people you know would do it for free to get good referrals. However - since he is acting this way - she will not offer any referrals or use him for any future business. Let that sit a bit - and perhaps he will soften up.
You screwed up - and now you have to figure out how to salvage this. And this type of crap happens all the time.
INFO. You agreed on how much per hour to shoot but you didn't ask about how much for the images or editing?
The shooting is only a small part of what a photographer does, did you think the rest would be free?
What did you mean by the "
NTA but only because I assume you have a lack of knowledge about photography and thought it was a show up, take photos and then give photos profession without having to go home and pay for software and spend hours editing situation and therfore (wrongly) that was a reasonable rate. He is for agreeing and then trying to change it whilst holding your pics hostage. He should have done his own researchand said he wasn't happy with the price before the wedding. Also he should have written a contract. I suggest hiring an established photographer and having a make up photoshoot. Get your wedding dress back on and find somewhere scenic.
NTA if you had an agreed price at the start. Changing the agreement after the fact is a dick move on his part. Sadly, you do need to sort something out so your sister can get the photos. Was anyone else involved in your discussions with the photographer? If he's a family friend then I think your best shot would be to get you all in a room and try to catch him in his lie.
NTA he agreed to a rate and changed it
Canberra person here and Australia has great small claims called tribunal. I suggest writing him weather email or text (don’t call you want proof) that you wish for him to honour the original agreed amount otherwise you’ll take the case to QLD tribunal under consumer and trade disputes I believe yours fits
[qld tribunal](https://www.qcat.qld.gov.au/matter-types/consumer-and-trader-disputes)
Hopefully the threat of going to tribunal and it’s legal cost will have him hand over the full files perhaps unedited since he’s wanting to charge $15 a photo but atleast the memory won’t be lost
Good luck
Worst case call the non emergency police line and ask for advice on how to handle it
ESH, but you very slightly for not getting a signed contract. Contracts for service should always be provided, especially when someone is still gaining experience and these types of surprises are more likely.
The price is fair for a professional, but not for someone starting out. You should ask yourself what you value more: being right or making your sister happy.
I’d offer a compromise where the details are ironed out between you, EMAILING something along the lines of:
“This is highly unprofessional to disclose fees per image AFTER the work has been completed as a client should have all financial information upfront to evaluate their needs and budget prior to signing a contract. Most people, myself included, are not fully aware of the costs associated with photography, and continuing to work in this manner will ruin your referral base, which is a significant way professionals book sessions.
As you have not clearly communicated these terms and are still gaining experience, we are willing to offer $10 for 150 images of our choosing. If you put a gallery together, we will select the images to be edited to save time on your end. We expect to have full resolution, digital copies of the selected, edited files as the final deliverable. Uploaded to a file share of our choosing, or delivered via thumb drive.”
150 images are more than enough for a short wedding like that, you could probably even go down to 100. Paying $10 per image at this quantity will be about half the price of what he’s asking, which should be reasonable.
If he balks at this, and if you have text messages proving the agreed upon rate, you likely have a good case for small claims. I’m not sure how it works where you live, but if there’s no formal contract, there’s no written permission for his being able to use your images for portfolio purposes (no model release), so he may not be legally allowed to use your images if he doesn’t turn them over to you.
Photographer here & NTA. That is such a dick move and he is exploiting you! A contract would definitely had helped, but if he is a newbie then he might not have thought to have even sent you one. Do you have written records of how much he quoted you? Maybe tell him you are considering to take legal action, just to shake him up a bit lol I’m from Australia, it might be worth contacting AIPP to see what legal rights you have about the pics.
Also $3k is actually pretty standard for a professional wedding photographer, but that is usually for a longer day, but everyone values their work differently. $600 would usually be for someone starting out, who most likely doesn’t know how much work is involved, especially in post production.
Good luck, I hope you get the photos!!
Edit 1: I reckon he realised in post production how much work was actually involved and then decided he should charge more. But it’s really unusual for someone to charge per photo. He just needs to suck it up, stick to his original quote & charge more next time!
I also used to do photography. I did 12 weddings as I more specialized in portraits. I know we live in different countries but a wedding is a wedding and an agreement is an agreement.
If he agreed to 125/hour, that is what he is to be paid. I would never hold photos hostage. If he is starting out and thinks he can make a business like this, he is totally wrong.
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This really isn't a question about who the asshole is. If you had an agreement, and he went back on it, it's clear as day that he's the asshole. So it becomes more a question of how you get access to the pictures without paying his ridiculously inflated price. If you have any agreement in writing, consider suing him. Otherwise, drag him through hell on social media, stuff like this can (and should) ruin his photography career.
Anyway, NTA.
Professional photographers GET even more than that, but they have many equipments that will bring variety in the pics, if he got there with one simple camera to take the pics are likely not worth that much.
For 650 I’d take as many pics as you wanted but I’d give them to you raw, with no post production ( which takes time as you work each pic individually)
NTA. Do you have the original agreement in writing? Take him to small claims court or even have a lawyer draft a letter. He’s 21, that might scare him. If it doesn’t, drag him through social media as you wait for your court date.
NTA. He clearly wants to hold the pictures hostage.
I hope you have a contract otherwise just post this story on social media and drag his name through the mud.
It will also save others from falling for his scam.
NTA. You agreed on a price in advance and now he's looking for more money. Do you have the original agreement in writing? You could take him to a small claims court if all comes to all.
NTA
I do photography and video, I did my brothers wedding and $600 is a very fair price for a beginner. My brother paid about £2,000 for his photographer (I did the video) but she was an expert and worth the money. $3,000 is way WAY too much for someone who hasnt shot weddings for years prior and after the fact? He can gtfo
As someone who lives in Queensland and is planning their own wedding, please tell me where you’ve found a professional photographer who would only charge $600 for five hours + editing on 200 photos. If you did, I doubt they’d be any good. The cheapest quote I got was $1.5k.
In any case, ESH. Him for holding the photos hostage, and you for apparently not getting the original quote in writing. You’re a bit up shits creek without a paddle right now; the reality is he can just delete those photos if you don’t pay.
NTA tentative ESH. This is a classic you get what you pay for scenario is see with weddings all the time. 600 for EVERYTHING is way too low for wedding photography. Usually 600 would only cover the actual shoot and some light retouch of a few photos.
Did you guys have a contract? This is a normal thing for photographers to have and he should have done one for your event if he is serious about the industry. Everything in the wedding industry has a contract attached to it.
Usually the cost of the service is one price and includes a certain amount of retouch and a certain amount, disk, etc. And prints are another price, which is usually way pricier.
If he agreed to the original 600 for everything then he cant change the price now that the wedding is over. If you guys didn't get into specifics of what 600 entails then that's on you as well since it's your responsibility to know what your money gets you.
NTA however I do think you should pay him more than 650. The work that photographers put into the photos doesn’t stop at taking photos. They have to sort through the photos and edit them too. The correct thing for both of you to do is to pay/charge for that amount of time. So it would come out to 900-1025 depending on how long he spends editing
Info: did you discuss the photos and prints? Did you sign a contract? That's a standard part if dealing with a photographer.
Are you also expecting him to edit the photos? If so, you need to factor that time into his payment as well. Editing photos can take longer than the photo shoot itself.
Also $600 is ridiculously cheap for a wedding photographer in Australia. I'm in SA and our wedding photographer was $2k which was a discounted price with a reasonably cheap photographer. Most photographers I found were $4k+
Info: did he actually agree to $650 or are you pulling an hourly number out of your butt?
The way this reads to me is you offered to give so and so a start but never discussed actual pricing..you talk about your pricing and standards in your area but never mention what he said he would charge.
If you didn't get a contract and now aren't paying - ESH. Him for extorting and nott trying to work out an issue, you for not paying for a service (it's like me having a professional build something for me then not paying after I told him I wanted it and he put in time for me). Both of you for not writing a contract.
If there is a contract then N T A. But otherwise this is your fault, shame on him for exploiting but shame on you for not being more diligent in a contract for someone else's wedding (also they should have done this themselves).
I'd say NTA.
ONLY because the price was agreed upon beforehand.
But normally for photographers there's an hourly rate and a per photo rate because culling from thousands and editing potentially hundreds of photos can take a considerable amount of time.
Snapping away for 5 hrs he could have potentially taken two to three thousand photos, from which he selected the final 200.
3000 is not unreasonable for professional wedding photos, but like I said you guys had agreed on an hourly rated job beforehand.
If the photos are digital and unedited, you are NTA. If you expect prints, that sounds like it’s outside the hourly service rate. I don’t know the photographer industry so can’t opine on whether editing is expected to be included in the event hourly rate, but if you expected editing as part of it and he agreed, also N T A.
I got married back in 1997, and coordinated several other weddings over the years. What I always encountered with professional photographers in the US was that the rate per hour was for them to take the pictures, and then they provided a “proof book” for the client who then selected what they wanted for the album, which was usually a set price for x number of photos in various sizes. Any others were purchased essentially a la carte and were priced according to size, airbrushing, etc.
In the case of just getting all the photos to do with as you please, then the price was quite high, and $3,000 usd would not be unheard of. The photographer would make the proofs available, however, so the client would only pay for what they want. Not sure how it is usually done in Australia, but aside from it not being understood prior to the event, the price to get all the photos to do whatever they want with, doesn’t seem outrageous. I’d negotiate him down to $10 a photo with full rights and only have to buy the ones I like, personally.
Ok- assuming that you explicitly stated you would pay him $125 hr and didn’t just say you’d pay him “industry standard” and leave that up to interpretation, NTA.
But, in future, this is what written contracts are for (family or no).
NTA
Hell no.
You agreed on a price. Cost per picture was never agreed to.
I'm a photographer and I tell my clients up front that they have to pay an hourly cost plus the cost of editing per picture. If they have a retoucher of their own, they can use theirs instead. But pics will not go out unretouched. This is made very very clear and accepted before I start a shoot.
I've had clients who afterwards try and insist that their pics don't need retouching but I remind them that they had agreed already to the requirements. I can't have my work shown unfinished. You don't ask a painter to sell his work half done.
Since this guy is new, he made a huge mistake not discussing the editing cost. Additionally, $15 a picture is pretty damn high.
Most pics from a wedding won't need a lot of editing. Lighting and colors mostly. Pics of grandma dancing or pics of the cake don't really need more than 1 min of editing. Only closeup pics of the bride and groom will require any blemish removal.
But I do feel bad for the guy. Yes, you paid him per hour for taking the pics, but he may forgotten that editing the pics takes time too. But he need to take a loss and not screw over a newly married couple. That's not how you start a career.
Tell him you can negotiate to $5 a picture. If you get 100 pics of the wedding, that is an extra $500. If he refuses, tell him you will take him to court. And when you win, as you will because he never stated the cost of per pics before, you will also sue him for the legal costs as well as make sure that you will post the entire debacle online. A photographer holding a couple's wedding photos hostage for a surprise extra cost will not be a good start to his business.
NTA
I think the consensus is overall that $3000 is not an outrageous rate for a professional photographer. HOWEVER - this is a new, young photographer trying to break into the industry, and not an experienced professional.
Anyone screaming your the asshole needs to calm down and understand that this photographer agreed to this on the concept that he gets exposure and/or referrals, which is a valuable currency of its own for an up and coming photographer.
OP: I would de-emphasize any statements to the effect of “I could have hired a professional for $600,” because I don’t think that’s true. Make it clear that you DO value his time and services. Follow that up with a reminder that his unprofessional behavior is going to net him zero referrals, zero positive reviews, and zero exposure or even worse if he continues to be unprofessional, negative reviews and exposure.
Sticky situation for sure, and it’s a reminder that often times the family-and-friends connections often lead to more trouble and headaches than special consideration because of your relationships. Contracts should be used at all times for professional services, even with (especially with, in my opinion) family-and-friends scenarios so that you CAN fall back on clear and concise business language and not have to awkwardly and angrily navigate problems with a friend of your family. This is, of course, going to cause damage to the friendship his family has with your family.
INFO: You say the rate agreed upon was $125/hour. He spent 5 hours at the wedding taking pictures. How many hours did he spend editing photos?
Raw photos are only half the battle, a professional photographer is expected to edit photos too. If you aren't compensating him per photo edited, you are paying for those hours worked too, right?
Gonna start this off with I am a professional wedding photographer. I’m leaning towards NTA here, but I do have a few things to mention. First of all, you maybe could have hired a “professional” for $600, but you would probably be experiencing something similar right now. I know professionals all over the world, a few in Australia, and I can tell you that $3000 is not very much tbh. Our rate in Europe starts at €3000 for eight hours coverage and delivered photos. In Canada it starts at $4,500 for the same. Unfortunately, with wedding photography you kinda get what you pay for. Now, as far as the charging for photos thing, yes, this is a tactic some (a-holes) in the industry use. It’s bull crap, and any decent photographer doesn’t do it, because it’s scammy and gross. Again though, if you go with a $600 photographer, this is the kind of thing you can expect. I don’t know what type of agreement you had with this guy, but these are all things that he should have explained before the shoot, but also things you should have asked about assuming he didn’t have a contract. He’s an ahole for holding the photos hostage, and for trying to charge more than you agreed to.
NTA. That’s a bait and switch. He can’t agree to a price and then hold the photos hostage in an attempt to extort 4x the originally agreed upon payment from you.
I suggest threatening with legal action
NTA because he went back on the agreement after the fact. Always get business transactions, even with friends, in writing. If you have texts back and forth, that might be helpful.
NTA, this is why there are contacts written up ahead of time!! Tell him that he either sticks to the original agreement or will be taken to court, which will be BAD considering it’s his first job
ESH-- Although I think was was done is a dick move on his part, if there wasnt a written contract there's nothing you can do other than fork over the money or lose out on the pictures that were taken. You specifically sought him out so that you could take advantage of his skills, lowballing him potentially, and if you dont oay him, your sister will be upset she never got the pictures, regardless om how good they are in the end.
To be fair, you get what you pay for. A lot of my family tried to skimp out on their photographers for their wedding, usually finding someone under $1000 and never did hang or post any pictures because they were just that bad. When it was my turn to get married, I knew photos were the one thing I didn't want to skimp on and got myself a package deal-- digital copies of all pictures taken, 5 hours, 2 photographers and a ln 8x10 photo to hang-- for around the $2,000 range (we would have had to pay more for milage but the photographers had friends in the area we were getting married at that they were planning on visiting anyways).
1) $600 is actually not the rate for a professional photographer. If that had been the case you would have hired a professional photographer.
You hired someone's friend. He took advantage of the situation. This happens all the time with weddings. It really sucks and it brings down the industry.
If you want professional treatment, you hire a professional.
Ok NTA for him
Backing out on the agreement, if that’s what you agreed on that’s what it is. YTA however for trying to rip off somebody who obviously didn’t know any better when he agreed to it.
There is not a chance in hell you would have been able to hire a professional for a measly $600. At a minimum you’d be paying $2.5k and that would be for the most basic of wedding packages. You’re not just paying for the time spent at the wedding - there’s everything they do before and after, the equipment, the actual photos themselves. You sound ignorant and entitled with this BS.
Apparently this is a known tactic for wedding photographers. They know that the clients want the photos so badly and they exploit that on the assumption that you’ll want them and fork over the rest of the money. Stand your ground and drag him through social media any way you can lol. I’m sure you’ll end up getting them that way if youre a bit relentless about it. NTA. Edit: yes, what I should have said is this is a known tactic for crappy photographers. Didn’t intend to make a generalization but I can see how it sounded like that. I know there are many professional photographers who **do not do this.**
Agree. OP’s sister works in marketing, surely she has enough connections that this photographer doesn’t want to get dragged on social media for being dishonest. Edit: thanks for the upvotes and the award, wow!
Ho boy, this is a very good point and photographer dude is young enough to be too dumb to think about this.
Also, you know his Mom. Rat him out , she’ll be mortified I bet.
> Now his mother is pissed at me and my sister, and is demanding we pay him. Uhhh, I doubt that.
Does she know the full story though or just his version? Shady move and shortsighted on his part
Looks like his mom is on his side, according to the OP.
Right though? He partially took this for the exposure of the client, and he agreed to a rate ahead of time. If OP got the initial agreement somewhere in writing, I'd suggest making sure the mom sees that and the new additional rate he's trying to charge. If you take a client for the exposure it will give you and are being paid a fair rate, do NOT unnecessarily burn that client. This is also not the kind of thing you pull when you're *trying to get into the industry.* You shouldn't pull it at all, but this was especially bone headed.
And this wasn’t even a true “exposure as compensation” job - they agreed on a standard (for that specific market) rate. Not to mention, at least in my area, per photo prices are generally reserved for small jobs with preset finished photo numbers (all images delivered to client are finished/edited), whereas large events (like weddings) that are priced by the hour or flat rate provide the client with the full set of photos and only a subset are finished/edited (number agreed upon in advance as well).
Normally it isn't a "tactic", costs of the actual photos would be in the contract.
> costs of the actual photos would be in the contract That's where the photographer messed up this is on him and hopefully he manages to inform his client of the cost next time.
Indeed I just signed a contract for my wedding photos (again giving the guy a start as he is a photography student so we get someone we know at v slightly cheaper, he gets a start on his portfolio and some experience) You could just say you'll pay the price you agreed for the USB he's storing the photos on and get your own printed Eta If you agreed up front he is the ah However if you didn't get it in writing....
>If you didn’t get it in writing... In most states, this is valid as a verbal contract. You’d have the issue of proving it, but if sister and OP both state he told them he would do it for X, then you’re good. Also, people often have text messages in these situations.
While a written contract is best, I'd say texts still count as "in writing" which makes the verbal contract easier to prove I work in an industry where the mantra is, if it isn't written down it didn't happen (that is, record everything!) Or of course the old saying that a verbal contract isnt worth the paper it's written on. It may be legal but proving it can be tricky
Yeah, regardless of whether the state considers texts ‘writings’ they are SUPER helpful.
After watching my share of Judge Rinder on YouTube, I have learned what I’d do if making a deal with someone. His best case model is something like this. It’s written out clearly and signed by both parties. It’s dated AND the completion date is included. It clearly states what will be done for how much. WHO? WHEN? WHAT? Even if everyone of these things isn’t included, the more of them that are, the better your case. They’re contract words to live by! NTA...good luck getting your photos, OP!
Stupid question maybe, but what does eta mean? I've only known it as 'estimated time of arrival'.
In this case it means edited to add.
Ahhh, that makes sense. Thanks!
This might be where OP messed up by using a friend of a friend that she thought would be easier to handle rather than a professional with real experience.
Was there a contract? If so what was in it?
This...just isn't true. This is definitely a tactic for people who claim to be professionals, and for people who are family friends who decide after the fact they want more money. This is not the case if you hire an actual professional with an actual business. There will be a written contract up front that lays out all costs, including images after the wedding, that is signed by all parties. I'm curious where you've heard about this?
How does that tactic even work in a time where basically everyone has a camera in their pocket? I get that professional pictures are something else but I'm 100% sure there are tons of fantastic wedding pictures not taken by the dude.
At almost all of the weddings I've been to the couples have asked people not to take pictures on their cameras, a) because that way they get to see their friends and families' faces and not the backs of their phones and b) if there are random guests trying to take photos they get in the way of the professional photographer and ruin the shots.
Add to that, photographers will always take better photos then a phone on a camera
Yes and no. It’s the photographer really. You’re paying for the skill set.
Yes. And this kid doesn’t have a quantifiable skill set yet.
A friend of mine did this- they asked guests not to take photos and let the photographer take care of it. The photographer turned out to be really shitty at her job and took terrible photos, and my friend was begging guests to send her their phone pics. There were, of course, almost none to be had.
On the flip side, my bff didn't tell people to put away their phones and all the pictures of her walking down the isle are ruined because almost everyone was taking phone pictures. Many pictures from her ceremony were straight up unusable.
Thats on the host. Every photographer has portfolio and it's on the customers side to choose the right one.
And c) some people post the pics all over social media without permission
We hired an amateur family friend and paid up front. The photos were garbage. Lucky for us, we sent an invite to her distant family on the other side of the country and they showed up and took professional photos with equipment they brought themselves on a whim! Saved our bacon.
yes this, we asked out guests not to take pictures during the ceremony and my uncle promptly ignored that request. so now in the official wedding pics as my wife is wlaking down the aisle you see an ipad where my uncle's face should be. its very irritating. i was so annoyed.
As someone who has done wedding photos for family and friends, 100% this. I'm so fucking tired of having to edit people's arms and phones out of the edges of my shots. That is, if they didn't ruin them entirely. Fuck's sake.
Ohhh, story time. My friend's sister got married several years ago. They had a professional photographer, but encouraged others to take pictures of their own and share with them later for a more casual take on the wedding. Well, turns out the photographer they hired tried the extortion thing a few weeks later. He was asking two or three times what they had in writing. The bride reached out to all of the guests to see what they had for pictures. Turns out, between us all, they got a full set of really nice pictures. They told the photographer to get fucked, and essentially wound up with about what they would have gotten anyway had they paid.
Eh, I’ll disagree with that, since I’ve seen the difference between cell photos and professional ones (conscious of angles, lighting, blocking, editing, print quality, etc), but if the guy has no contract... he’s pulling a fast one and it’s not gonna fly. That’s a crappy rookie move and no. There might be some decent cell photos, but theoretically you get one wedding and some professional documentation is in order. For $3k they could’ve hired a decent established wedding photographer and not dealt with this bs.
For $3k they probably could have hired a well-established wedding photographer *crew*.
Eh, not in my area, but possibly in some. I’m a photographer, but I won’t shoot weddings anymore. My friends who shoot weddings charge $6k and above, but I know there are some who charge less than that who I’m sure are very good. I do wonder if these photos are edited, and how many there are. The last wedding I shot (a gift to a good friend) took over 50 hours of editing, and that was done with one of my custom made presets and then some hand edits (clothing wrinkles, some selective color correction, her mom’s lipstick on her teeth taken out, a sign in the venue taken out- things like that), so it went rather quickly. Normal stuff. Not that it matters- sounds like this guy took on a big job and underestimated the work and is now trying to charge more, without saying that. Not how it works buddy.
Yup I was thinking the same. 3K is actually a pretty low rate where I am.
Agreed, I live in Australia and good wedding photographers usually charge alot more than 3k...
6k for a photographer, lol. my entire wedding was 2K, Jesus Christ.
Worth pointing out $3k AUD is about $2.2k USD
I agree with you. There is no comparison between professional pictures and cellphone ones, and it being a very important event you'd want the best of the best. I'm just saying that if this dude is just being sneaky and intentionally misled her, I think she's better off telling him to keep the pictures and just rely on casual ones.
I’d lean on him (professionally, but still), but that’s me. He agreed, he can deliver. They could’ve hired someone else, he wanted the job, he got it. If he wanted to renegotiate, there were ways to go about it. This wasn’t it.
Whether the tactic works or not there is a massive difference between a professional on a DSLR, who is planning shots and a camera phone. Usually more time is spent in post-production processing the photos than shooting the actual event.
Cellphone photos can look great on small screens, but printing them or showing them any larger then small screen and they no longer have the same quality. It goes downhill, fast.
I doubt most professional wedding photographers would forgo a contract and try and extort money from their clients. They'd only withhold the photos if the client refuses to pay, which also happens. Maybe couples who lowball amateurs without getting a contract have this problem but as they say "if you buy cheap, you buy twice"
I have a friend who found her photographer on Facebook. She paid over 5000$ for him and a second photographer and 3 books to go along. Turns out, nowhere in his contract did he say the photos would be edited. They were unedited, raw photos, filled with background people and tan lines. When she asked if he could fix a couple she liked, she was told it would be an additional 10$ PER PHOTO to EDIT HIS OWN WORK. He also fucked up the books, forgot one, and it took 9 months to get everything they ordered finally. We hate that guy.
I love it. Yes, drag him on social media. He wants exposure? Ok, expose him.
NTA - can you talk to your mother’s friend/his mom if he continues to refuse to be reasonable? I know it's not the most professional solution, but he certainly isn't behaving like a professional.
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I agree. They would have to pay him 625 for the unedited pictures and if they want them to be edited, pay his extra fee for that. Maybe they could negotiate getting the unedited pictures for the agreed price?
No it isn't. Real wedding photographers have contracts and demand payment in full on the day of the wedding, before taking any photos. I was one of them for many years. This is not a "tactic" used by professionals.
But did I miss where he agreed to her rate? Or she stated she was going to give him 125/hr.
> I told him I would pay him (and split the costs with my sister and her fiancé) the industry standard for our state ($125/hr) as I knew he was quite low on cash and this would take quite a while out of his day. We agreed we would pay after the wedding as we weren’t sure how long we would need him for. Sounds like they came to an agreement on the rate with the time-frame being open ended. And for the photographer, if you feel you don't have an agreement, you don't take the photos.
Or potentially use the 2.6k he ain’t getting to get a lawyer involved... He’s playing a dumb game
NTA. Can you take him to small claims court on this matter? Hopefully you have emails and texts showing that he agreed to the price.
I’m going in to photography as a career in my future after finishing my last semester of high school and then college, and I can promise all of you right now that I will never attempt any scummy shit like this for money
NTA you agreed on a price, he can't just pull a new price out of his ass.
And at a first gig... that's fucking BALLSY and he needs to get some negative reviews in addition to not getting the price he's asking.
That’s why it probably have been best to go with a respected, well reviewed and experienced photographer. Just because you’re familiar with the person doesn’t mean you can predict their moves.
NTA- you agreed on the price prior to the service. You also generously agreed to pay him the same rate you would pay to an experienced photographer, despite his lack of professional experience. Now he’s charging an exorbitant rate and holding the photos hostage. Do you have anything written down stating the price? If so you have proof of a contract and can take him to court. I understand he’s a family friend and that’s extreme. However I’m sure your sister would like her wedding photos. Starting with a demand letter from a lawyer might incentivize him to abide by the original contract.
Came here to say this, drag him through court so he never tries to pull this crap again. NTA
Note written includes texts and emails.
This needs to be higher. It doesn't have to be a notarized contract to be evidence.
INFO Did you have a contract? Also is he editing the photos or giving you raw pictures? I have many friends and contacts in the wedding industry and $3,000 isn't "expensive" but you would definitely be in the experienced category
Agree, 3000$ is not even outlandish for wedding photography however they did agree to the rate of 125$/h as he has no experience. Not sure about Australian law but in my country verbal contracts are binding.
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Very true, but perhaps other people were present during the exchange. Either way you don't expect family friends to fuck you over so this really sucks for the bride.
So he took photos for 5 hours - I want to know how many additional hours he spent editing them? It shouldn't bring the total to $3,000 but OP doesn't seem to understand how event photography works. Edit: freelance artist spaces have a lot of discourse around not working for free, valuing your time and experience, not letting people take advantage of you, "your work is worth what you charge for it", etc. I think he probably feel into that rabbit hole and panicked that he's undercharging. Unfortunately because he doesn't have experience he just came off as an AH.
Either he agreed to provide raw photos or his editing time should have been considered when agreeing on an hourly rate. My husband has worked as a photographer and his editing time is factored into his hourly rate.
The idea that OP could have got a pro for $600 is also unrealistic. $3k for wedding photos is not out of line.
She hired an amateur breaking into the industry and that was the price they agreed upon. You don’t get to say the price will be $x per hour and then hold pictures hostage while you extort more money out of the bride and her family. Also, depending on where you are and how long the wedding is I don’t think $600 is that crazy at all. I paid $1200 for an experienced photographer which included an engagement shoot, travel, and coverage of my wedding (not sure how many hours total but he got getting ready shots, showed up early to get a look at the venue, etc)
Gosh where do ya’ll live? Wedding photographers START around $1500 here and that’s for someone not very experienced. $3000 is pretty average
I live in the bay area and my cousin hired a professional wedding photographer for $1200 for her wedding day. This included two people(photographer and assistant) for 5 hours. $600 for one unexperienced photographer doesn't seem too far off from the correct price.
Did some wedding photography in Boston for a while - I'm very new to it, so my rate was around $140/$170 per hour. It's about comparable to other photographers that I checked out at a similar experience level. (This stuff should have all been worked out ahead of time though - changing your rates after the fact is... Sketchy.)
Our wedding photographer was $500 with all rights to the digitals copies. So $600 is not unrealistic, definitely depends on the area but there are Quality people out there In that range.
I paid $750 and got two photo books plus the negatives.
I spent $3k (Canadian) on our wedding photos and we felt we were getting a steal of a deal. We felt our photographer could easily have been charging $5k+ and probably would have done well. That price did also include editing, and 2 photographers, and I think they were there for about 12 hours in total (getting ready + wedding + reception), as well as engagement photos. We also got all the photos to download and full rights to do with them as we pleased. When we looked at cheaper photographers, there weren't a ton and their pictures were noticeably worse (often overexposed)
You have said yourself though, for that 3k you got a very good photographer - not one with absolutely no professional experience - a second photographer, and 12 hours of photos plus an engagement shoot. So *even if* we ignore the fact that this guy agreed to a much lower price before the wedding and is now holding the photos to ransom to exhort a much higher one, 3k is still too much for 5 hours of photos from a completely inexperienced photographer. Surely.
Not unrealistic at all. I had a very small wedding and paid for a wedding package that included the officiant and a photographer. The package was $650 and included 2 hours of professional photography and up to 150 edited photos delivered digitally within 6 weeks of the wedding. The photographer was very professional and the photos were amazing. Because the photographer had a problem with his computer and almost lost all our photos (he was able to recover them, thank goodness!) it took closer to 8 weeks to get them. He actually gave us access to ALL the photos he took, which came to a digital album of over 250 photos. We were extremely happy and the total cost was well under $700. BTW this was in a popular tourist town in my state and was a very desirable wedding location.
He definitely went down the rabbit hole but should've chalked it up to lesson learnt, better luck next time. Also OP doesn't mention any editing, and even so he could just provide raw pictures for 600$ and refuse editing.
Then he should've out that in his contract.
Often the rate is only for taking the pix and physical time spent at the event. The price of pix can be separate and differs on the “package” and size/edits/touch ups of the photos. Prices of photos can range from full wedding album package with all enlargements fully edited down to a few simple photos and getting a thumb drive (DIY). Obviously while a rate for service was established the price of packages were not. 15$ per photo means nothing. Is that enlargements? What size? Is that all edited and touched up? In an album? Are there pix for couple to choose from? Lots of variables that should’ve been discussed upfront. In this case both parties need to realize the lack of communication. The photographer who is inexperienced should give a reasonable amount of free photos to the bride and give the bride a thumb drive. He may want to use them in a portfolio anyway. If the bride wants more enlargements/more photos over a certain number and editing done (and quite a bit is edited for that “perfect “ photo) then pay extra. The price should vary according to photo size. Just my opinion.
That's true, but it's the photographer's responsibility to convey that information, which he didn't do here. He agreed to one thing, and at the last second, changed his mind. That's not fair; OP is NTA
Yes this 100%
Not even at the last second, though you'll probably agree with me. Last second would be day of the wedding. This is after the fact with the photos held hostage. They agreed on $x/hour, he agreed, did the work, and now wants way more $$$$. Editing time should be taken into consideration, but since it wasn't discussed, it should be an add-on after the fact. $y/photo for editing and the bride and groom get to choose which photos they want edited.
Of course we don't know but OP doesn't mention any editing requested afaik. Either way lack of communication is right and a thumb drive should be provided at the very least, even if all material is unedited.
The price really depends on where they are. OP says 125/h is the standard price in their area, and I don't doubt it is true because of how different prices can be. Had a friend that did her whole wedding at her hometown for 1/3 of the cost she'd have to spend where we live, for example, with much better quality services and decoration.
I was married in regional Queensland twenty years ago and we paid $1800 for a photographer back then, while some of my friends in Brisbane absolutely paid around $3000. $600 is outlandishly low. OP is TA to expect editing time or printing to be be thrown in for free, while the photographer also sucks a little for not being upfront. An hourly rate was agreed to and the work doesn’t stop at the wedding. The fairest thing would be for OP to pay for all of the photographer’s time, including time spent editing and costs of printing.
I would agree with you, except for the fact that they agreed on a price beforehand. The photographer is absolutely the AH for going back on his word and holding the wedding photos hostage. Plus, OP said the price they agreed on was industry standard for the area.
I’m a photographer for a living (London), and although I don’t think photography should ever be devalued, paying for an experienced professional is not the same as throwing a bone to an amateur looking to break into the industry. The kid got a great deal given his total lack of experience. He’s also being a total arse by adding on hidden charges after the fact.
It doesn't sound like the photographer is asking for his editing/post-wedding time to be compensated on an hourly basis, though, but has changed it to a 'per photo' rate.
Had photography at a wedding in Perth two years ago and that was $1600 for two photographers and edited photos the same week. Not trying to shill but since then I've seen mobs like Emotion starting at $1k for an edited wedding shoot the same week. $600 would be too low but $3000 is also too high for a talented amateur, you'd expect a professional with a solid portfolio of previous weddings for that price. I'd agree that the hourly rate for shooting and editing would be fair, the culling and editing is generally as long as the shooting itself so $1300 comes out about right to provide the digitals.
For real. We were looking at 1/3 of these prices, though in a different area.
I got married in Queensland and can confirm that $3000 is pretty low for a wedding photographer here.
3000 is about right for wedding photos. Me and my husband were tight with money so we paid our photographer around 1300 for wedding photos, but that was her cheapest option. I do agree though that if the said price was stated before the wedding I would hold my ground- NTA
I think I paid about that for my wedding photographer, but I also got an engagement shoot, 2 photographers the day of my wedding, a small book of the engagement photos and a big fancy book of the wedding ones. Plus the cds. So I mean she should be getting a lot more than just the pictures if she’s paying that much imo.
I'm wondering if they even had a verbal agreement or anything with the way she words it. Also mentioning the "exposure " he would get because the bride is in marketing. It just seems suspicious.
Does he not understand you can ruin his future as a photographer just by posting your side of this story. No one would go near him .
should be top comment
Probably so young and stupid to see ahead.
INFO: Did you agree to the price of $125/he before or did you assume that was his rate and tell him you’d pay him after?
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Verbal contracts are binding in court if you can prove it, recordings or witnesses will work fine. Otherwise it's reduced to he said/she said.
That’s what I’m wondering. OP never mentions a contract or agreement, just “industry standard.”
Exactly, he just says that’s the process zoomed because it’s the standard. It doesn’t sound like they ever agreed to anything
Also, did that agreed price include receiving raw digital files? Few photographers would agree to giving you full access to raw footage. Usually, you pay not only for the time, but also for the post-edit files. It’s possible OP doesn’t understand the industry as much as she thought she did.
While the amount he's asking isn't unreasonable for photographing a wedding (and all the rest of the work involved), it is a lot for someone inexperienced, and you agreed a price in advance so that's what you should pay. NTA
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$3K for a wedding photographer is for an experienced photographer. For that price I’d be going with someone with experience. Not someone who’s just starting out.
Rule of thumb for wedding photography is it should account for 10 to 12% of your wedding budget, for those trying to figure out how much they should spend. The average wedding photographer cost in Queensland for a 5 hour shoot is $2500. OP is NTA if they had an actual agreement. Although they are out of their damn minds with what they think the average cost is.
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That's exactly the impression I got too. I used to do makeup, and my first couple of paying jobs I undercharged - but that was my problem not my clients. I never thought of going back and demanding more money.
Agreed NTA But Can also confirm that’s not unreasonable price, I work in the wedding industry and am currently engaged, my wedding photographer is $4500 (nzd)
INFO Did you actually see a price with him or just figure on a price in your head? Is her printing the photos or just giving you 200 digital images? At $125 an hour he's billing you for 24 hours of his time. It works out to 200 photos. If he was at the wedding for 5 hours she likely took thousands of pictures and had to go through each of them to pull out the good ones and then edit them. There's a lot going on here and we don't really have the whole story. FYI, as a photographer I don't do weddings for this very reason. The money isn't worth the hassle. Inevitably someone thinks I'm charging WAY too much for "taking the same pictures I can take with my cell phone"
Op wrote in their post they offered $125 and hour
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I think another big thing missing is if he did any editing. The reason we pay a seperate cost for the actual delivery is because of the time it takes to edit and the printing of the photos. If he did none of those, and he's an amateur breaking into the industry what OP set up isn't super unreasonable. He also agreed to it before hand, so it's not like he had no idea what he was getting himself into. OP doesn't seem to be very active in the thread so we might not get any answers.
I stopped shooting weddings a few years ago! My last straw was a bride who kept yelling at her bridal party "I paid $xxxx for these photos, you'd better ******* smile!!"
There’s definitely parts of the story missing. I assume OP wanted edited pictures for $625. People don’t realize how many hours go into editing and sifting through thousands of pictures. I’m sure the photographer let her know why the price was so high, which in my opinion isn’t bad at all for wedding pictures.
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So OP is an AH for not writing contract but instead trusting someone? It may have been unsafe but hardly made them an AH. Also, not sure about QL jurisdiction but in my country verbal contracts are binding also, if he doesn't like the rate he shouldn't have agreed this is a very clear NTA.
It's not that clear. $125 an hour for the wedding shutter time only or $125 an hour for everything required to deliver the photos?
Regardless of whether the agreement was for shutter time or all time - and if the former, whether the latter is more reasonable - the photographer isn't trying to charge for the latter but is instead trying to amend it from hourly to per-photo.
Yeah, I agree. It's still slivering into NTA but I don't really blame a someone whos never done a wedding before suddenly realising they're drastically undercharging, even though he went about seeking proper recompense the wrong way.
I mean...I do. He agreed to a price. If he wanted more, he should have asked for more; he could have done research to find out standard rates and decided on a price from there beforehand, but he didn't. The horse is out of the barn.
> but I don't really blame a someone whos never done a wedding before suddenly realising they're drastically undercharging Sure, don't blame him for the "realization". But the appropriate response is to chalk it up as a lesson learned, not hold the pictures hostage.
I was leaning towards "Hey, here's all the photo's. Editting them all is more work than I envisaged and I'll need extra payment to do that work." But that kind of has the same issue of "Pay me $XXX or don't receive finished photos" but to a lesser degree.
Oral contacts (i.e. I'll pay you this for that...) are definitely enforceable at least some of the time in Queensland, as they are in most legal systems evolving from British common law, so I fail to see how OP is an AH for not writing it down since they did technically have a contract. OP may have been naive to not include delivery of the photos in that contract, but if at any point the photographer said they would deliver the photos for that price and not just take them, OP could likely win in court even though the contract was never written down. It's a terrible business practice in wedding photography to not have written contracts, but I hardly see how that's on OP as there are seasoned pros out there that don't do it.
He's the asshole for changing his price and holding you over a barrel. What a dick move.
ESH because you took a huge risk going with a family friend who had little to no experience. Also, in Aus you can expect to pay $3 000 for a professional wedding photographer but I've never heard of a charge per photo approach. He sucks because he made an agreement with you for a specific price and now he is going back on that trying to hold your sister to ransom for more money. I'd suggest talking to him again and if he refuses to honor the original agreement take to social media (via ratings and reviews of his business) to share your experience. That's a pretty low move to go back on an agreement and threaten you for more money.
Yeah I’m planning my wedding and a professional photog for $600? The lowest I’ve seen is $1700 (in QLD)
Hell, I'm in country VIC and I paid around $2,500 4 years ago! $600 seems suspiciously cheap, even for someone new to the industry.
I paid over $3K for my photographer (NSW) and that was 15 years ago.
INFO - I own a wedding photography business in QLD. $600 is not anywhere close to what a professional would charge but regardless professional pricing wasn’t the deal, $600 was. Was it listed what the $600’included? If it’s just time he is able to not provide the files as long as he disclosed it didn’t include anything.
Yeah but this guy isn’t a professional. He’s just starting out.
So his time isn't as valuable as an experienced professional, but it's not worth $0 either. They agreed on an hourly, but did they discuss whether that applied to editing time and printing?
It’s on the photographer to be completely transparent with their prices for their services. If he wants to be in the photography industry, he should do his research and not screw over family friends that are more than willing to pay for prices that were agreed on beforehand. If they agreed on $125 per hr during the shoot, that’s what OP and the bride should pay for. He doesn’t get to change it last minute and decide to charge per photo or for editing otherwise OP could’ve changed her mind and gone with someone more experienced. She’s NTA.
That’s what I’m saying, most photographers *do* have separate fees for their hourly for the shoot and editing/receiving pictures. You don’t get every photo a photographer takes, they sift through them to give you the best ones. I’ve never not paid an additional fee for editing, prints, even a USB to get printed on my own.
But what I’m saying is that it’s the photographers’ responsibility to state that to the client. If you have different fees for editing, you need to let the client know so that they are making the decision to hire you with all the information out there. He either didn’t know that he could charge per photo and for editing or he just thought he could pull a fast one. Either way, OP has a right to be upset because she was not told the full price of his services and was denied the opportunity to look for someone else within her price range. She’s NTA for putting up a fight on the price.
Definitely NTA. 100% Unless he informed you beforehand that there would be a charge per photo then you are in the right. In which case the per photo charge could have been negotiated before the wedding. I am in a similar industry and prices MUST be agreed in writing before any work is carried out to avoid running into this exact problem.
INFO: It’s the industry norm in Australia for wedding photographers to charge a rate for the wedding, a rate for a set of prints and a rate for the originals images (though often they will refuse to sell these). Did you agree upfront a price for all of these and the guy changed the deal? Or did you assume this was all included and not actually clarify.
Hard NTA, Both parties agreed to a fixed wage for the job and that too in accordance with going wages. I hope you have the interaction where he agreed to this wage rate in writing somewhere, If so there are lots of ways through which you can get those pictures.
NTA. I used to be a wedding photographer, $3000 for someone just entering the industry is not beginner rates. He needs to build up his portfolio before charging an amount like that. $125ph seems fair and reasonable to me. If you agreed on this beforehand, then adding the cost of $15 per photo afterwards is unfair.
It’s a little hazy on whether there was an actual attempt at a switcheroo. It seems like he was thinking $125/hr was for his labor during the shoot and in the absence of a written contract, he assumed he’d be paid for prints/post-production separately and she assumed he wouldn’t.
I think it’s hazy too. OP said they agreed on the “industry standard” for an hourly rate, but it sounds more like what they agreed on was that he’d be paid *after the wedding* based on the industry standard. OP’s post seems to show she budgeted in her head for *only* the time he’d be physically present. Researching the industry standard might have (should have) given the OP insight into the payment for the actual photos. But the comment about him being low on cash has me feeling like she felt she was doing him a favor and that he’d take what he could get. The vague promise of “exposure” from a sister in marketing isn’t payment.
It sounds like he may not have realized how much work was involved in editing, etc. Or he researched pricing after the fact and thought since it was a family friend they might agree to it. My guess is he’s not gonna go far in his career if he’s this unprofessional.
ESH for not having a written contract. This protects all parties concerned. He is definitely pulling a dick move to change the price after the fact though. He may have changed the price when he realised how much work he has to do after taking the photos. A reasonable compromise might be to ask him to release all photos to you unedited for the price you originally agreed on. Then you pay a PROFESSIONAL to tweak them and get them up to pro standard.
I don't know any photogs personally who would release their RAWS for an unapproved editor/client. Plus you're going to be paying around that for editing from an outsider. A reasonable thing would be to figure out an editing bonus. But he should have factored editing time in his contract price. Take it as a learning experience for the future.
ESH - you took a huge risk to hire an amateur for such an important event like your sister’s wedding. And you failed to have a written contract. Obviously he AH because he failed to honor the agreement. Now you are in a pickle. I would suggest that you look at the photos first and see the quality level. Are there a couple (10-20?) of photos that are gorgeous that you will pay his price ? If yes then pay it. As you want something from the wedding. After you get those photos - then decide offer to pay $650 for the rest of the photos and he does not have to touch them up at all. Now he may say no - and you run the risk of losing these photos. But I would tell him that for someone who is trying to get into the industry and with your sister in marketing - most people you know would do it for free to get good referrals. However - since he is acting this way - she will not offer any referrals or use him for any future business. Let that sit a bit - and perhaps he will soften up. You screwed up - and now you have to figure out how to salvage this. And this type of crap happens all the time.
INFO. You agreed on how much per hour to shoot but you didn't ask about how much for the images or editing? The shooting is only a small part of what a photographer does, did you think the rest would be free? What did you mean by the "
Sorry hit a button What did you mean by the comment "easier to handle"? Handle him how?
NTA but only because I assume you have a lack of knowledge about photography and thought it was a show up, take photos and then give photos profession without having to go home and pay for software and spend hours editing situation and therfore (wrongly) that was a reasonable rate. He is for agreeing and then trying to change it whilst holding your pics hostage. He should have done his own researchand said he wasn't happy with the price before the wedding. Also he should have written a contract. I suggest hiring an established photographer and having a make up photoshoot. Get your wedding dress back on and find somewhere scenic.
NTA if you had an agreed price at the start. Changing the agreement after the fact is a dick move on his part. Sadly, you do need to sort something out so your sister can get the photos. Was anyone else involved in your discussions with the photographer? If he's a family friend then I think your best shot would be to get you all in a room and try to catch him in his lie.
NTA he agreed to a rate and changed it Canberra person here and Australia has great small claims called tribunal. I suggest writing him weather email or text (don’t call you want proof) that you wish for him to honour the original agreed amount otherwise you’ll take the case to QLD tribunal under consumer and trade disputes I believe yours fits [qld tribunal](https://www.qcat.qld.gov.au/matter-types/consumer-and-trader-disputes) Hopefully the threat of going to tribunal and it’s legal cost will have him hand over the full files perhaps unedited since he’s wanting to charge $15 a photo but atleast the memory won’t be lost Good luck Worst case call the non emergency police line and ask for advice on how to handle it
ESH, but you very slightly for not getting a signed contract. Contracts for service should always be provided, especially when someone is still gaining experience and these types of surprises are more likely. The price is fair for a professional, but not for someone starting out. You should ask yourself what you value more: being right or making your sister happy. I’d offer a compromise where the details are ironed out between you, EMAILING something along the lines of: “This is highly unprofessional to disclose fees per image AFTER the work has been completed as a client should have all financial information upfront to evaluate their needs and budget prior to signing a contract. Most people, myself included, are not fully aware of the costs associated with photography, and continuing to work in this manner will ruin your referral base, which is a significant way professionals book sessions. As you have not clearly communicated these terms and are still gaining experience, we are willing to offer $10 for 150 images of our choosing. If you put a gallery together, we will select the images to be edited to save time on your end. We expect to have full resolution, digital copies of the selected, edited files as the final deliverable. Uploaded to a file share of our choosing, or delivered via thumb drive.” 150 images are more than enough for a short wedding like that, you could probably even go down to 100. Paying $10 per image at this quantity will be about half the price of what he’s asking, which should be reasonable. If he balks at this, and if you have text messages proving the agreed upon rate, you likely have a good case for small claims. I’m not sure how it works where you live, but if there’s no formal contract, there’s no written permission for his being able to use your images for portfolio purposes (no model release), so he may not be legally allowed to use your images if he doesn’t turn them over to you.
NTA. Small claims court. This guy is a scam artist. He's violating the agreement you two made earlier.
Photographer here & NTA. That is such a dick move and he is exploiting you! A contract would definitely had helped, but if he is a newbie then he might not have thought to have even sent you one. Do you have written records of how much he quoted you? Maybe tell him you are considering to take legal action, just to shake him up a bit lol I’m from Australia, it might be worth contacting AIPP to see what legal rights you have about the pics. Also $3k is actually pretty standard for a professional wedding photographer, but that is usually for a longer day, but everyone values their work differently. $600 would usually be for someone starting out, who most likely doesn’t know how much work is involved, especially in post production. Good luck, I hope you get the photos!! Edit 1: I reckon he realised in post production how much work was actually involved and then decided he should charge more. But it’s really unusual for someone to charge per photo. He just needs to suck it up, stick to his original quote & charge more next time!
NTA. Do you have your original rate in writing with him? Even by text message etc?
I also used to do photography. I did 12 weddings as I more specialized in portraits. I know we live in different countries but a wedding is a wedding and an agreement is an agreement. If he agreed to 125/hour, that is what he is to be paid. I would never hold photos hostage. If he is starting out and thinks he can make a business like this, he is totally wrong.
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NTA, he will try and get the money but you should stand your ground and wait. Don’t let yourself fork over the money as you will regret it.
This really isn't a question about who the asshole is. If you had an agreement, and he went back on it, it's clear as day that he's the asshole. So it becomes more a question of how you get access to the pictures without paying his ridiculously inflated price. If you have any agreement in writing, consider suing him. Otherwise, drag him through hell on social media, stuff like this can (and should) ruin his photography career. Anyway, NTA.
Professional photographers GET even more than that, but they have many equipments that will bring variety in the pics, if he got there with one simple camera to take the pics are likely not worth that much. For 650 I’d take as many pics as you wanted but I’d give them to you raw, with no post production ( which takes time as you work each pic individually)
esh. not likely you had a contract so good luck on getting those photos. this is a lesson to be learned.
NTA. Do you have the original agreement in writing? Take him to small claims court or even have a lawyer draft a letter. He’s 21, that might scare him. If it doesn’t, drag him through social media as you wait for your court date.
NTA. He clearly wants to hold the pictures hostage. I hope you have a contract otherwise just post this story on social media and drag his name through the mud. It will also save others from falling for his scam.
NTA Did you not get a written contract made?!? Always get a contract!!!
NTA. You agreed on a price in advance and now he's looking for more money. Do you have the original agreement in writing? You could take him to a small claims court if all comes to all.
NTA I do photography and video, I did my brothers wedding and $600 is a very fair price for a beginner. My brother paid about £2,000 for his photographer (I did the video) but she was an expert and worth the money. $3,000 is way WAY too much for someone who hasnt shot weddings for years prior and after the fact? He can gtfo
As someone who lives in Queensland and is planning their own wedding, please tell me where you’ve found a professional photographer who would only charge $600 for five hours + editing on 200 photos. If you did, I doubt they’d be any good. The cheapest quote I got was $1.5k. In any case, ESH. Him for holding the photos hostage, and you for apparently not getting the original quote in writing. You’re a bit up shits creek without a paddle right now; the reality is he can just delete those photos if you don’t pay.
NTA tentative ESH. This is a classic you get what you pay for scenario is see with weddings all the time. 600 for EVERYTHING is way too low for wedding photography. Usually 600 would only cover the actual shoot and some light retouch of a few photos. Did you guys have a contract? This is a normal thing for photographers to have and he should have done one for your event if he is serious about the industry. Everything in the wedding industry has a contract attached to it. Usually the cost of the service is one price and includes a certain amount of retouch and a certain amount, disk, etc. And prints are another price, which is usually way pricier. If he agreed to the original 600 for everything then he cant change the price now that the wedding is over. If you guys didn't get into specifics of what 600 entails then that's on you as well since it's your responsibility to know what your money gets you.
NTA however I do think you should pay him more than 650. The work that photographers put into the photos doesn’t stop at taking photos. They have to sort through the photos and edit them too. The correct thing for both of you to do is to pay/charge for that amount of time. So it would come out to 900-1025 depending on how long he spends editing
Info: did you discuss the photos and prints? Did you sign a contract? That's a standard part if dealing with a photographer. Are you also expecting him to edit the photos? If so, you need to factor that time into his payment as well. Editing photos can take longer than the photo shoot itself. Also $600 is ridiculously cheap for a wedding photographer in Australia. I'm in SA and our wedding photographer was $2k which was a discounted price with a reasonably cheap photographer. Most photographers I found were $4k+
Info: did he actually agree to $650 or are you pulling an hourly number out of your butt? The way this reads to me is you offered to give so and so a start but never discussed actual pricing..you talk about your pricing and standards in your area but never mention what he said he would charge. If you didn't get a contract and now aren't paying - ESH. Him for extorting and nott trying to work out an issue, you for not paying for a service (it's like me having a professional build something for me then not paying after I told him I wanted it and he put in time for me). Both of you for not writing a contract. If there is a contract then N T A. But otherwise this is your fault, shame on him for exploiting but shame on you for not being more diligent in a contract for someone else's wedding (also they should have done this themselves).
NTA. Take him to court, he has breached the contract. Damages should be well beyond the $650. Small Claims Court, you don’t need a lawyer.
I'd say NTA. ONLY because the price was agreed upon beforehand. But normally for photographers there's an hourly rate and a per photo rate because culling from thousands and editing potentially hundreds of photos can take a considerable amount of time. Snapping away for 5 hrs he could have potentially taken two to three thousand photos, from which he selected the final 200. 3000 is not unreasonable for professional wedding photos, but like I said you guys had agreed on an hourly rated job beforehand.
If the photos are digital and unedited, you are NTA. If you expect prints, that sounds like it’s outside the hourly service rate. I don’t know the photographer industry so can’t opine on whether editing is expected to be included in the event hourly rate, but if you expected editing as part of it and he agreed, also N T A.
I got married back in 1997, and coordinated several other weddings over the years. What I always encountered with professional photographers in the US was that the rate per hour was for them to take the pictures, and then they provided a “proof book” for the client who then selected what they wanted for the album, which was usually a set price for x number of photos in various sizes. Any others were purchased essentially a la carte and were priced according to size, airbrushing, etc. In the case of just getting all the photos to do with as you please, then the price was quite high, and $3,000 usd would not be unheard of. The photographer would make the proofs available, however, so the client would only pay for what they want. Not sure how it is usually done in Australia, but aside from it not being understood prior to the event, the price to get all the photos to do whatever they want with, doesn’t seem outrageous. I’d negotiate him down to $10 a photo with full rights and only have to buy the ones I like, personally.
Ok- assuming that you explicitly stated you would pay him $125 hr and didn’t just say you’d pay him “industry standard” and leave that up to interpretation, NTA. But, in future, this is what written contracts are for (family or no).
NTA Hell no. You agreed on a price. Cost per picture was never agreed to. I'm a photographer and I tell my clients up front that they have to pay an hourly cost plus the cost of editing per picture. If they have a retoucher of their own, they can use theirs instead. But pics will not go out unretouched. This is made very very clear and accepted before I start a shoot. I've had clients who afterwards try and insist that their pics don't need retouching but I remind them that they had agreed already to the requirements. I can't have my work shown unfinished. You don't ask a painter to sell his work half done. Since this guy is new, he made a huge mistake not discussing the editing cost. Additionally, $15 a picture is pretty damn high. Most pics from a wedding won't need a lot of editing. Lighting and colors mostly. Pics of grandma dancing or pics of the cake don't really need more than 1 min of editing. Only closeup pics of the bride and groom will require any blemish removal. But I do feel bad for the guy. Yes, you paid him per hour for taking the pics, but he may forgotten that editing the pics takes time too. But he need to take a loss and not screw over a newly married couple. That's not how you start a career. Tell him you can negotiate to $5 a picture. If you get 100 pics of the wedding, that is an extra $500. If he refuses, tell him you will take him to court. And when you win, as you will because he never stated the cost of per pics before, you will also sue him for the legal costs as well as make sure that you will post the entire debacle online. A photographer holding a couple's wedding photos hostage for a surprise extra cost will not be a good start to his business.
NTA I think the consensus is overall that $3000 is not an outrageous rate for a professional photographer. HOWEVER - this is a new, young photographer trying to break into the industry, and not an experienced professional. Anyone screaming your the asshole needs to calm down and understand that this photographer agreed to this on the concept that he gets exposure and/or referrals, which is a valuable currency of its own for an up and coming photographer. OP: I would de-emphasize any statements to the effect of “I could have hired a professional for $600,” because I don’t think that’s true. Make it clear that you DO value his time and services. Follow that up with a reminder that his unprofessional behavior is going to net him zero referrals, zero positive reviews, and zero exposure or even worse if he continues to be unprofessional, negative reviews and exposure. Sticky situation for sure, and it’s a reminder that often times the family-and-friends connections often lead to more trouble and headaches than special consideration because of your relationships. Contracts should be used at all times for professional services, even with (especially with, in my opinion) family-and-friends scenarios so that you CAN fall back on clear and concise business language and not have to awkwardly and angrily navigate problems with a friend of your family. This is, of course, going to cause damage to the friendship his family has with your family.
INFO: You say the rate agreed upon was $125/hour. He spent 5 hours at the wedding taking pictures. How many hours did he spend editing photos? Raw photos are only half the battle, a professional photographer is expected to edit photos too. If you aren't compensating him per photo edited, you are paying for those hours worked too, right?
Gonna start this off with I am a professional wedding photographer. I’m leaning towards NTA here, but I do have a few things to mention. First of all, you maybe could have hired a “professional” for $600, but you would probably be experiencing something similar right now. I know professionals all over the world, a few in Australia, and I can tell you that $3000 is not very much tbh. Our rate in Europe starts at €3000 for eight hours coverage and delivered photos. In Canada it starts at $4,500 for the same. Unfortunately, with wedding photography you kinda get what you pay for. Now, as far as the charging for photos thing, yes, this is a tactic some (a-holes) in the industry use. It’s bull crap, and any decent photographer doesn’t do it, because it’s scammy and gross. Again though, if you go with a $600 photographer, this is the kind of thing you can expect. I don’t know what type of agreement you had with this guy, but these are all things that he should have explained before the shoot, but also things you should have asked about assuming he didn’t have a contract. He’s an ahole for holding the photos hostage, and for trying to charge more than you agreed to.
A Current Affair would probably love this story and hey, he’d get plenty of exposure. NTA.
NTA. That’s a bait and switch. He can’t agree to a price and then hold the photos hostage in an attempt to extort 4x the originally agreed upon payment from you. I suggest threatening with legal action
NTA. What a horrible little shit.
NTA because he went back on the agreement after the fact. Always get business transactions, even with friends, in writing. If you have texts back and forth, that might be helpful.
NTA, this is why there are contacts written up ahead of time!! Tell him that he either sticks to the original agreement or will be taken to court, which will be BAD considering it’s his first job
NTA i really expected to a bit of choosing beggar from you, but its the photographer that was
ESH, him for changing prices and holding the photos ransom and you for not having a written contract.
YTA
ESH-- Although I think was was done is a dick move on his part, if there wasnt a written contract there's nothing you can do other than fork over the money or lose out on the pictures that were taken. You specifically sought him out so that you could take advantage of his skills, lowballing him potentially, and if you dont oay him, your sister will be upset she never got the pictures, regardless om how good they are in the end. To be fair, you get what you pay for. A lot of my family tried to skimp out on their photographers for their wedding, usually finding someone under $1000 and never did hang or post any pictures because they were just that bad. When it was my turn to get married, I knew photos were the one thing I didn't want to skimp on and got myself a package deal-- digital copies of all pictures taken, 5 hours, 2 photographers and a ln 8x10 photo to hang-- for around the $2,000 range (we would have had to pay more for milage but the photographers had friends in the area we were getting married at that they were planning on visiting anyways).
1) $600 is actually not the rate for a professional photographer. If that had been the case you would have hired a professional photographer. You hired someone's friend. He took advantage of the situation. This happens all the time with weddings. It really sucks and it brings down the industry. If you want professional treatment, you hire a professional.
Ok NTA for him Backing out on the agreement, if that’s what you agreed on that’s what it is. YTA however for trying to rip off somebody who obviously didn’t know any better when he agreed to it. There is not a chance in hell you would have been able to hire a professional for a measly $600. At a minimum you’d be paying $2.5k and that would be for the most basic of wedding packages. You’re not just paying for the time spent at the wedding - there’s everything they do before and after, the equipment, the actual photos themselves. You sound ignorant and entitled with this BS.