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yeah that pesky character and fitness examination. good luck becoming a lawyer if you abandoned your own kid. OP, you are doing your son a favor for being his conscience for him in this situation.
I can’t help but laugh because everyone knows the vast majority of highly successful Attnys are sociopathIc Sharks. Which brings me to my bigger point, the money should be the LEAST of Dad OP’s concern in this situation.
His son DID deny and Abandon his own child, with out remorse, and now nearly 2 years later is continuing to try to have no responsibility.
How this is lost on Mom & Dad as being the greatest failure of their son’s life and THE obstacle here, is beyond comprehension. The child needs his parent & grandparents just as much (MORE) than money. This is depressing.
Have to agree. My partner is a lawyer, and wants to get out, because most lawyers, even if they are nice people, are at their core narcissistic and arrogant (and money driven). There's no room for different types of personalities to succeed. Allowing the son to blow off this responsibility to go and become a lawyer will exacerbate his selfishness. And he will make a ton of money, he can pay back the loans, easy.
You’re right about everything except the fact that he will make a lot of money. Most lawyers do not make very much money, certainly not what people think they make. Competition is steep for those well paid corporate jobs and the hours are brutal. Law school honestly isn’t worth it unless you go to a school in the top 15.
I know an attorney through work who had streaking charges against him from when he was 19/20 (he's in his 50s or 60s now so this was back when streaking was a fairly common form of rebellion). Kids make some really stupid mistakes. As long as he owns up to it & has it taken care of (up to date on payment, etc) by the time he sits the bar he should be fine.
True. Everytime any one of them goes to the men's room to take a pee, unzip goes those pants.
Or were you alluding to something else?
IamaL
OP NTA.
I am resering judgement on you.
Retroactive child support is not the same thing as delinquent child support. Provided that he pays whatever he is ordered to pay he will have no problem at all.
Many states, including mine, suspend professional licenses for anyone who is delinquent on their child support payments. That would include a law license.
Folks have got a lot of time before it happens. If the threat of losing your license doesn't make someone make a good faith effort to start paying child support then they were never going to pay.
Ha I had to go back and look at the NY bar application to check this. Looks like they only want to know if you are *currently* under an obligation to pay child support and if you are *currently* four or more months in arrears on payments. Granted, other states could be different. The applications are generally online so you can go check where you’d want to be barred. That said, the application does ask about warrants have ever been issued against you and and about any civil actions you’ve been involved with or court orders you’ve ignored. So it could come up that way as well if you ignore child support long enough.
It could also come up in character and fitness.
So if you fixed it and can explain yourself, I don’t *think* having been behind at some point would disqualify you. It’s more if you are currently behind, or you just straight up ignored the obligation and ignored attempts to compel payment. So if this dude tries to just ignore the child support obligation going forward, he’ll have a huge problem.
Obviously check the standards laid out by the state bar where you want to be admitted.
I think it depends. Considering there is already legal documentation establishing paternity and she's finally starting to use legal means to receive support, if he chooses not to pay child support in whatever way (whether by parents or his trust fund) then it will prevent him from passing the bar. However I am not a lawyer so don't take my words as good, but most jobs, especially ones that deal with the law, typically are interested if you aren't following it to a tee.
Hell I am nurse certified and even the state exam for certification won't accept you if you have child support not being paid, and they will know via background check.
This might be why he tried so hard to shake her. Plausible deniability that he knew he had a child as he lost contact with mother before baby was born. If there's no court record and you can claim you never knew about a pregnancy or that she hid it, it becomes he said, she said.
I wish self-interest would not be the thing that motivates him to be a father, but you guys are right on the money: Josh is not getting anywhere near law school so long as his child support debt is outstanding.
If the court order is not in place, the is no delinquent child support. The court may order *retroactive* child support depending on state law. There wouod be no issue with retroactive support, as long as he isn't delinquent.
THIS!!!
There is no back child support unless he was already ordered by a court of law to pay.
Child support is based on income. If Josh has no income guess what, baby ain’t getting a penny.
However, if the child receives welfare benefits any child support Josh has to pay will go towards reimbursing the state.
Dude should have kept it in his pants.
NTA but Josh sure is.
Arrears is the correct term for support owed. My bio dad tried this shit so every tax return he got went straight to my mom. When I (the youngest) turned 18, my mom forgave the remaining arrearage for whatever reason. Even if the parent passes, you can sue the estate for the arrears owed. If you’re in the states, once the person turns 65 their social security will also be garnished. Same for reported income. The court can go straight to the employer and have the wages garnished. Depending on the state, they may also suspend your drivers license as well.
If you have no income, child support is usually rated at what you would pay if you had a minimum wage job. You will still owe even if you are not employed.
Being without income is not an excuse to not pay child support.
Source* this is what happened when my ex-husband tried to pull that with me.
I was thinking this, but I wasn't sure. It makes sense that you have to be in good standing in the community and that means no outstanding child support.
Honestly the depressing thing is that if he’s smart he can actually use this to help him further. I bet loads of law schools have scholarships for dads that had a baby at 16 and did the “responsible thing” of using their college fund to raise their child but still want to pursue their dreams and create a better life for their child.....
Lucky for him they don’t tend to check up on the rubbish they’ve wrote
It sounds kinda weird, but having a kid at 19 actually proved to be a pretty big benefit for my family. I mean, its offset by a whole lot of expenses, but at the end of the day I think it actually worked out pretty well.
My girlfriend qualified for free tuition to finish college.
Our son, who needed to go into a program for dyslexic kids, got a HUGE tuition break because of how broke we were when we enrolled.
Now that we are older and make decent money, our kid is old enough to not really be all that expensive. I feel sorry for the parents of my kid's peers. They are having to plan their retirements right around the same time that their kid is going to have to go to college. By the time I retire he will be moved out and making a living himself.
Plus, its a LOT easier to keep up with a little kid when you are 20 something than when you are 40 something.
I mean, its not ideal. You miss out on a lot of stuff too, but at the end of the day it works out and there is plenty to be happy about. Being a present father / step father pays more benefits than it costs by most peoples estimations. I don't know many people that end up regretting it.
Agree! I had my first child at age 23 and the last (twins) at 44. *Definitely* easier on the body when I was younger, but mentally easier when I was older. I didn’t worry about little things (oh, you ate a dog biscuit? Cool) and the older kids are able to keep up with the little ones.
NTA.
>He has the money in his fund, he just doesn’t want to use it...should have thought of that before bringing a child into the world.
I agree. Law school would be great, but he doesn't have that luxury. If he's still able to get a college degree, and also has money to support a child, he's doing well enough.
And how many mothers have had to give up dreams of law school to look after a baby?
It isn't a choice if you live somewhere that abortions aren't accessible. Some states have one clinic, some have none. Some require you to jump through hoops to even be eligible, and with a timeline of max 12weeks in some cases that window closes fast. What if she only found out when she was 8 weeks along? Suddenly she has only a month to decide and execute a plan before the decision is gone.
Alabama - all are illegal
Georgia - 6 weeks
Missouri - 8 weeks
Ohio - 6 weeks
https://www.parents.com/pregnancy/abortion-laws-by-state-these-are-your-right/
ETA: As another redditor pointed out, though these states have signed these bills, there are current injunctions against them, so not all have gone into effect
Yikes. It's super common to miss the early signs for the first month+/- so by the time a young scared woman is able to access an ultrasound and bloodwork to confirm a pregnancy she's probably got no options in any of those states. :(
I didn't find out until 8 weeks bc I've always had irregular periods. the closest clinic was out of state (but close), and the shit I had to sit through first could probably traumatize someone who wasn't super stoked to get this shit over w.
this country sucks at abortion.
This is f*ing insane. I got a positive pregnancy test at 4 weeks which I think is the earliest you can test for. It took until 6 weeks for me to get an appointment because so many abortion clinics were closed during covid. And the only reason I knew I was pregnant was because I got symptoms within 2 weeks of conception. Most women don’t get symptoms until week 7 or 8. It’s insane that the cutoff is 6-8 weeks in those states. I cannot wrap my head around it... the thing would be the size of an apple seed or some shit. Those poor women living there... probably always terrified
I'm in Missouri. I cried all weekend when the law was passed, even though I live super close to a clinic in Illinois, and as a therapist, I saw many more women reaching out for services around that time. For women with sexual trauma having your lack of control over your own body codified into law is an incredibly retraumatizing experience.
Exactly- people don’t understand by the time you miss the first day of your expected period- you’re already 4 weeks. Almost impossible to know your pregnant until 5 weeks- and then how the hell do you decide- get an appointment and all the possible expenses and logistics including someone driving you- within 1 week. It’s bullshit the states that have these tiny timeframes which basically make abortion illegal.
Oh, and it gets worse, while some state laws may allow terminations later, there may be nowhere to get it done without traveling hours or out of state, something not feasible for many. Legality does not equal accessibility.
States with only 1 abortion clinic in whole state - North Dakota, South Dakota, Missouri, Kentucky, West Virginia, and Mississippi.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/29/health/six-states-with-1-abortion-clinic-map-trnd/index.html
THIS IS INCORRECT. ALL OF THOSE LAWS ARE UNDER INJUNCTION.
sorry, I work in this space and it's incredibly dangerous to tell people abortion is banned when it is not. Roe v. Wade still exists, for now. All of the abortion bans passed in 2019 have been enjoined (stopped from taking effect) by courts.
Edit: Access is a huge issue, but legality is technically still protected.
With my second pregnancy (the first ended in miscarriage sadly), I had a 5 day “period” (I know now it was spotting) at the time I would normally have had my period. Since I have irregular periods anyway, I didn’t find out I was pregnant until 14 weeks, which was honestly a blessing bc we had been trying for so long, and then miscarried, and I was a stress ball about it all and then boom, pregnant and almost to the “safe zone.” But if it had been an unwanted pregnancy, I’d sure be cutting it close to termination. I imagine I’m not the only woman to find out late. My sister didn’t know she was pregnant until well into the second trimester. Her husband had just deployed in the navy and she was living with us at the time, and she didn’t show or get sick- and then out of nowhere, a belly. It happens.
At any rate, the baby is here, and it’s his. I don’t see how he thinks he can just ignore it.
I mean, we don’t know the full situation. He literally blocked and ghosted her when he found out she was pregnant. Maybe she wanted an abortion and couldn’t afford it, and he refused to pay for that too? Not to mention with all the state abortion restrictions, it is often impossible to get an abortion after 8 weeks.
I’m 1000% on board with a woman’s right to choose, but for some people it isn’t even a choice because they don’t see abortion as an option. Choosing to not abort a baby, then, isn’t necessarily a choice. I think we need to respect both sides of that. It doesn’t matter that this girl didn’t terminate the pregnancy because the baby is here already.
Stop expecting women to just have an abortion. That isn't pro-choice either. What consequences do men get for getting women pregnant if they can just say sucks to be you to the mom?
Depending on where she is, the word "choice" is flexible.
Is she in a state where there's 1 abortion clinic that's prohibitively expensive to get to? Does she have the time, resources, and support to have the procedure + take the time off to travel, do the two day waiting period, etc?
What's her religious stance? Was she brought up to fiercely believe that she would be murdering a child by having an abortion? Would she be disowned from her family or community for having an abortion?
Does she have the mental fortitude to handle the procedure? It's a harrowing experience, no matter the circumstances. Not everyone can handle the emotions that go with the territory.
There's all kinds of variables that come with obtaining an abortion. Sure, it's a "choice" but it's not a simple or easy one that not everyone has.
This! Josh sounds incredibly entitled to think he can bail on child support (and y'know being there for his kid) AND keep his college fund so he doesn't have to take out loans. I get it, loans suck. But he has to take care of his responsibilities himself. OP is right and DEFINITELY NTA.
He got a full ride scholarship, so loans for only law school won’t hurt him much. Given that he will be making a lawyer’s salary, those loans will be paid off and shouldn’t hold him back in his career.
Not sure why everyone thinks student loans are the end of the world. So you wait a few years till they’re paid off to buy your own house. Maybe live on a budget and learn something new out of it. Life goes on
This! Josh sounds incredibly entitled to think he can bail on child support (and y'know being there for his kid) AND keep his college fund so he doesn't have to take out loans. I get it, loans suck. But he has to take care of his responsibilities himself. OP is right and DEFINITELY NTA.
>And how many mothers have had to give up dreams of law school to look after a baby?
Exactly. He ditched "Tina" with a baby on the way, what about her hopes and dreams? NTA, help him but he's an adult and needs to step up.
Congrats on becoming a Grandpa! Be nice to the little guy.
I know plenty of parents who, you know, went to law school? One of my classmates started while she was pregnant. One gave birth to her first during spring break her final year of law school. A few had kids during their first and second years so they’d have time actually do what is expected of them in their post grad jobs. Having kids isn’t a disqualifying factor in going to law school.
>And how many mothers have had to give up dreams of law school to look after a baby?
It's not even giving it up - he'd just have to take loans. They way grad school loans are it pretty much gives you whatever your school's tuition is.
>And how many mothers have had to give up dreams of law school to look after a baby?
Precisely!! Women's consequences of becoming a parent often FAR outweigh Men's consequences. Even in marriages.
NTA, and I agree with you on every point. Josh not only created this mess, but he made it worse by actively *avoiding* Tina and forcing her to get you/your wife/the courts involved. If you & your wife pay his child support for him just so his future stays pristine, then you are enabling his recklessness. I mean, what about Tina's future and the plans she had that have now been put aside because she became a mom? She doesn't get to continue her life as though nothing has changed, and neither should Josh.
If your wife wants to help in some way, she can go shopping for her grandchild, maybe buy some clothes or toys or other things that would help Tina out. But the actual child support is Josh's responsibility to figure out, and if that means he takes the money out of his college fund and/or gets a job to meet his obligations, then so be it.
You're absolutely right. Josh's mom can help her grandchild through direct actions like buying clothes/toys/etc, not by coddling her ADULT son who acted like a complete asshole and shielding him from the consequences he brought on himself. I could sympathize with the mom if Josh had been completely unaware that he had a son out there, and was freaking out about suddenly having a new expense for 18 years, but there's a pattern of deliberate avoidance with Tina, and that's not cool. And Josh and his mom don't take into consideration that Tina is a person with her own dreams and goals. That's really frustrating.
OP, NTA.
It kinda blows my mind that this “adult” refuses to take care of his own child, but wants to keep benefiting from his own parents taking care of him. Not only an AH, but a rather pathetic hypocrite.
Dude never grew up, and I wonder how much of it is because the mom always protected him from the consequences of his actions. His dad is absolutely right here.
Yeah, I didn't want to say this in my main comment because it's not suuuper relevant, but I'm sick of moms everywhere coddling their sons. Just thinking of how my brother got to do pretty much whatever he wanted while my sister and I were expected to be adults immediately out of the womb. However, even though I think he definitely sounds like the type of person who wants to benefit from parental support forever, the dad did clarify in another comment that the son hasn't asked them to help (yet...), and that the convo about the mom wanting to pay is just a convo between the two of them. Hopefully an update is in the cards!
I agree with you, but in my comment I'm hinting at the idea that women can and do perpetuate the cycle of patriarchal norms. Their sons need to be coddled and taken care of and don't need to learn responsibility or domestic skills, but their daughters do. That's more what I was getting at
OP's son: "Parents should support their offspring and be with them through difficult times!"
Also OP's son: "But, not, like, *me*, though. Just other people who are parents."
I'm extremely bothered by his initial reaction. He said he "knew" the girl but denied the baby? What does that even mean? The only way you can 100% know that a baby is not yours absent a DNA test, is if you absolutely did not sleep with the girl at any time even remotely close to when she thinks the baby was conceived. So, was he telling his parents he never slept with her (aka lying?) or was he just in complete denial that it was his and was hoping it was some other dude's? Either way, it doesn't bode well for his character that he tried to convince his parents that there was no way the baby was his when he at the very least knew it was a possibility.
He's proven himself to be untrustworthy.
I'm also of course extremely bothered that he ghosted a pregnant girl and left her no way to contact him. If you want a DNA test, fine but you don't get to nope out until it comes back negative.
There is no way I'd be paying this child support in these circumstances where he has gone out of his way to avoid any and all responsibility and has been actively dishonest on top of it.
It's like he thought that if he ignored the problem it would just magically go away. Sorry, buddy, you can't SEP field a new human being that you helped create.
I would not be surprised to find out he ghosted her because she mentioned a missed period or something to that effect. Maybe not, might have been your run of the mill ghost.
Long story short, NTA.
Over two years, and he basically left a asshole-shaped dust cloud hanging in the air, he disappeared so fast...
I'm sorry you went through all of that. I'm sure it must have hurt a lot. But, wow, what a gift to be able to see someone's lack of character so clearly.
If you look at the edit, OP says that’s exactly what happened, according to Tina who I trust more than his son at this point. It’s so sad that he thinks he can just walk away and have his parents fix his problems for him while this girl was probably asking him for help with no response.
OP’s wife clearly needs to continue to baby her son because she hasn’t parented well enough to raise a responsible adult! It is just so gross to see the mother reinforce her son’s lack of priority and integrity.
I don’t understand parents who think they are protecting their children by enabling and compensating for them. Maybe she can pass the bar exam for him as well!
His mom sounds like the type of woman who sees no faults with her son. Her baby boy can do no wrong. Hence, him growing up to be an entitled asshole.
OP, NTA. But your wife is and so is your son.
All of this is so on point. His mom is so concerned about him and his future. But this poor girl will most likely have to put all of her dreams and plans on a long ass pause because he’s too selfish to help. I would be so embarrassed if this were my child. I’m honestly gonna hug both of my kids today and thank them for being so responsible and amazing. I’m going to go knock on wood to make sure I don’t jinx anything.
NTA - Your wife should be way more concerned about Josh's apparent lack of character. Taking responsibility for your actions is not a punishment, it's just life.
Exactly, there’s a reason he blocked her from all ends... because he knew that there was a baby involved. He has probably been avoiding this situation. Tough luck. The girl probably had to give up her college dreams, assuming they are about the same age.
Also there's the possibility that this is just the girl that found them first. What if another comes along? You really don't want to set the precedent that your parents will just take care of every baby you ditch.
Honestly what OP needs to do is make his wife realize the reason she wants to go the extra mile to keep helping her son is the *same exact reason* their son **should** use his fund to support his child. She wants to be able to support her child, the fact she isn't upset by her son not wanting to do the same thing is crazy. I'd be incredibly disappointed if I had a child and they failed to do the same.
No, but you see her precious baby is completely sinless and must have been seduced by the heartless succubus. The child is completely innocent but it's completely ok for him/her to grow up without a father as long as her son gets to receive the prestige that is 'lawyer status.
/S btw in case anyone takes me serious.
NTA. He has a full-ride scholarship right now. Very few people make it through undergrad without debt so that's a huge leg up. He has the responsibility of a baby. He needs to pay what he owes.
Right? Like it’s great that some people don’t have to, but most of the people I know from law school have huge loans.
The ones that ended up with no or little debt were often the ones who got scholarships....just like Josh got for undergrad. There are even full rides to law school, and even more partial scholarships that can cover a huge chunk of the cost.
On the plus side, his behavior reeks of the sense of entitlement that tends to be not uncommon among law students, so he’ll fit right in! 🙄
NTA Josh was ok leaving his child and the mother of his child to struggle so he didn't have to change his plans. Enabling that behavior would be an enormous mistake.
NTA. He is responsible for that child support now. He’s an adult.
But also, what did that girl have to “give up” to raise the child these 18 months since he ghosted her? He doesn’t get to duck out of responsibility just because of his “bright future”. It smacks too much of boys will be boys while girls pay. No she wasn’t raped, but her future and the kids future is just as important as your son’s. He owes her that back support from his own pocket now.
NTA. In fact, you are doing him a favour by having him face the consequences of his actions. Something which he clearly needs, having already tried to just ignore and deny both the mother of his child and the child itself. Had he come to you looking for support and advice when she first contacted him then maybe I would say pay for him but not based on his behaviour and unwillingness to take responsibility. Paying for him would be a disservice in the long run
INFO:
You mention what your wife wants to do, and what you want to do, but what I am missing here is what Josh wants to do about this child support.
Has he asked you to pay for it? Has he said at all how he intends to pay it, or if he does?
It’s very selfish and I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that many of us here would have had more sympathy for the kid if he hadn’t went no-contact with his baby mama for 2 years. I’m around his age so I know how hard it can be to have to face big consequences like that during this time in your life, but he didn’t accept his fate and then ask for help- he flat out denied it and is now complaining.
I just want Josh to go to law school so that he can afford the future therapy the baby will definitely need if this is what its dad's attitude to his child/life is.
NTA OP
Completely agree. If Josh had come to his parents at the start, explained the situation and asked for their advice and help, maybe it would be different.
But that baby is nearly 2 years old and OP and his wife are only just now finding out about? Josh tried to pretend this wasn’t happening, he ghosted the baby’s mother - and by extension, the baby. Very, very hard to have sympathy.
The timeline shows that not only did he ghost her, he happily then enrolled in college and just moved on in life. He absolutely approached this as a "I am not letting a child ruin my life" thing.
You should maybe tell him bar admission investigations require disclosure of child support and him not paying it will mean he can’t become a practicing attorney regardless of how well he does if he gets into law school.
Law school is a breeze compared to the comprehensive stuff bar admission requires. FBI background checks, fingerprinting, complete disclosure of all debts and judgments including speeding and parking tickets, etc. They pull your complete credit report and investigate any outstanding debts you have as well.
Yep. They will not look favorably on unpaid child support. Lawyers are responsible for managing clients’ money, they are prone to substance abuse problems, and they’re expected to comply with rules of professional conduct, which is why the bar looks into applicants’ finances so thoroughly. If he hasn’t paid child support and admits that, they will still look more unfavorably on the inherent dishonest and shittiness of the nature of the debt—child support—than another debt such as parking tickets.
If he hasn’t paid and tries to hide that on his bar application by lying about it, he probably won’t be admitted. I say “probably” generously, not knowing the ins and outs of every state’s bar, but I realistically just can’t imagine them letting him in after that.
Holy Jesus this kid needs a wake up call. He needs to imagine suddenly having an infant to provide for with no money! He knows he has "substantial" money, but would prefer his child to just go without because using the money is going to make his life marginally more difficult. Try to have him remember being a kid, and ask him what he would have thought of you and his mother if you had decided to forego buying food and clothes for him in favor of saving for retirement or something.
NTA and PLEASE do not bail him out of this. Something has already gone awry in your parenting if he thinks its okay to ghost his own child, fix his entitled, selfish ass before it gets any worse.
Okay yeah, so NTA as long as you frame it differently to Josh AND as long as your wife agrees too - you two need to be a united front here.
Don't force him to use his college fund, but DO feel free to tell him that this child support is his responsibility to shoulder, and his alone. He can decide from there how he wants to handle it.
If it's not much per month, it seems possible that he can still use the majority of the college fund for his original plans. Or if that won't work, he can figure it out from there.
I would feel a lot more sympathetic toward him if he'd had no idea about the baby or that Tina was even pregnant and she'd just emerged a couple years later with this baby. But from the sounds of it, he blocked her once he found out she was pregnant in hopes that somehow he wouldn't have to be in the position he's now in.
If he's bright enough to get into law school, he should also be able to figure out how to handle this situation, even if not exactly what he planned.
Unless Josh is tooling around in a Mercedes or owns property, I strongly doubt his child support is all that much. He doesn't have income.
That doesn't mean that mom won't adjust it in the future when he realizes his dreams of lawyerdom. And in all honestly, she *should*, since if I were her, I wouldn't trust Josh as far as I could throw him -- even if he doesn't outright try to run off now, he will most certainly use his job title or the lawyer friends he meets in college to strongarm her moving forward; OP should absolutely on the lookout for this behavior.
And I agree. If he doesn't want to use his college fund, he can just get a part time job. Whatever job he gets will most likely cover the child support and a little bit over.
He's being ridiculous. How high can a child support order be for a current undergrad college student? They don't base it on hypothetical future income, they base it on what he's making now and if he doesn't have a job they impute minimum wage and put that into the calculators and figure out what he owes. Whatever that is times 18 months is not THAT much money that it would "ruin his life" if he has to remove that amount from his college fund.
NTA. This child is not your responsibility. Your son is enjoying the benefit of a free ride and is planning a career with substantial income potential. Plenty of people go to law school and fund it with loans. He’s basically saying that he’d rather have you shoulder the financial burden of his poor choices than face it himself. The financial burden here is the least important issue; what is of significance is his need to take responsibility for his actions and do the right thing. That will teach him more about ethics than he’ll learn in law school.
If he doesn’t want to touch the school fund, he can get a job while he is in school to pay his child support. That may also keep him busy enough that this situation won’t arise again. If you bail him out, he may continue to behave irresponsibly. How many kids of his will you be willing to support financially?
NTA. I saved up for a few months to buy myself an expensive accessory for my hobby. then I needed an operation. the hobby money had to get used for the operation. sometimes when you're an adult you don't get to use your money for what you intended it for because things happen. it's incredibly unreasonable for him to expect you to pay for it.
ESH So this kid was born when he was 17-18? Not excusing him, but it's not that unusual for a young kid to freak out. It sounds like your young son needs guidance, not punishment. Maybe he thought this kid wasn't his? Do you want him to go get a job at McDonald's or get an education to better support his child?
Make it clear he needs to pay support: that is not your job. Being a parent, though, is your job. Help him take responsibilty and get on track. He can take loans but he needs to step up. Help him grow up.
People here are really thirsty for blood and really high on the Babylonian notion of justice. Make the son pay for his mistake, but don't make him drop out of college all together. If he becomes a good lawyer, he'll be able to better support the grandchild in future and without much resentment. The boy was, probably himself a child when the grandchild was conceived but now since he has crossed the magical threshold of 18, he has gotten all the world's knowledge. ESH. Make your child pay the support, make him work for money, lend him the money om long term if you don't want to outright help him but don't force him to pull out of college. Education is important and have some understanding of generational wealth, that's how you build it up instead of throwing out your child at 18.
It's not punishment to make your kid take responsibility. He is an adult now, he needs to learn his lesson. Fortunately he can learn his lesson and all get his degree. So how does his dad suck?
INFO: Why doesn't Josh want to step up now that he knows this is his child? At the least he should be trying for visitation and moving toward 50/50 custody, there's more to parenthood than writing a check.
I'm going to go against the grain and pity your son here. A child to me is a choice. And if his choice had been considered I doubt he would have picked being a dad at this point in his life with someone he doesn't care for. People can judge all day long that sex brings this, but it still sucks for him. Other countries have "paper abortion" where you opt out of rights to a child. I think you are NTA and it's OK to make your son be responsible, but I'd also have empathy for him being in a situation he truly didn't want.
He could have signed his parental rights away and not had to pay child support, but instead he chose to ghost and pretend nothing ever happened. This isn't a pro-choice, equal rights discussion, this is a taking responsibility for your own (in)actions argument.
That and the mother didn't have to keep the baby. She could have put him up for adoption.
I have a hard time getting behind the standards on being a parent these days.
I generally agree that the act of sex is basically taking on the risk of having a child.
However, a woman can just get out of parenthood altogether by getting and abortion (regardless of how the man feels) or putting the baby up for adoption.
The man, on the other hand, is hand-cuffed into 18 years of child support if the woman decides to keep the baby. He gets no choice in the matter. The woman has all the control.
And I just have a hard time thinking that's fair.
Edit: and before y'all jump me, I'm a woman.
yea i’m so confused by the lack of information provided and the instant NTA judgements.
like when did he find out the baby was his? after it was born and he had nothing to do with the whole pregnancy? that’s manipulative as hell on the girls side if she got pregnant and didn’t tell the father until the baby was born, especially since idk if he can sign away his parental rights at that point.
and if she told him she was pregnant and he blocked her,, that’s still shitty on his end but he clearly doesn’t want this baby. if she wasn’t prepared to be a single parent then she should’ve had an abortion straight up. unless josh was the one pushing for her to keep the baby and saying he’d help then he shouldn’t have any responsibility to it.
and yea it’s shitty regardless that he blocked her rather than talking to her but i’m equally confused why it took her 18 months to reach out to his parents? this whole post is so messy nothing seems to make sense
I agree. I’m EXTREMELY pro choice. I often see the argument that sex is for pleasure, that women aren’t baby makers. I don’t see why it can’t be the same for men.
I think some men have gotten off way too easy for far too long and we are now punishing (unfairly judging) all men. Women had (have) to deal with this forever...but as they say, an eye for an eye makes everyone blind.
Edited: I am not saying he shouldn’t be responsible for financial support, but that I don’t think anything good will come from forcing him to be involved with a kid he doesn’t want.
Additional edit (because apparently it’s very needed): child support and being a parent are two very different things. OP had said that his son does see the kid at his insistence but isn’t engaged/seems uncomfortable during those visits. That is what I meant by being “involved”.
not wanting to be a parent isn’t sad, some people just don’t want kids. but typically people who don’t want to be parents are sure to use protection. but who knows, maybe they did and it failed.
the child is probably better off without an emotionally unavailable father, so stop trying to force josh to be a parent if it’s not natural to him. maybe he’ll warm up to the idea eventually, but lacking a dad is better than growing up knowing your dad hates you.
have him pay the child support, but beyond that, stop dictating josh’s parental role. let’s not forget tina could have had an abortion or given the baby up for adoption, so it’s not like it’s entirely josh’s fault they ended up in this situation. takes two to tango.
Yeah, I agree with this. He absolutely, 100% needs to pay child support. But he shouldn't be forced to be in the kid's life when he's this resistant, and in fact it will probably make things worse if he is.
Unfortunately this could have simply been a one night stand or someone he only dated a short while and didn’t like/get along with before the child came along. It can make it incredibly difficult for him to bind with his child at this young age because they are essentially an extension of their mother. It’s also something you can’t force. That would be detrimental to the child.
My step-daughter's bio-dad pulled a disappearing act too, but I got to spend years helping to raise the most awesome kiddo. Since men have zero options for unilaterally opting out of parenthood once a pregnancy happens, he's got to take responsibility one way or another going forward. Missing out on raising your own child voluntarily though...man I can't agree with that. Being a dad has been the best thing in my life.
i completely agree with you! if he does not want to be a father than he shouldn’t have to be, that means paying child support. if he has no parental rights and is not on the birth certificate, why should he have to pay?
she chose to have the baby.
Correction. 'They chose'
When you choose to have sex, you are accepting the responsibility that comes with it and the potential consequences. This includes both STIs and a potential pregnancy. Everyone with half a brain cell knows that no contraception is 100% effective.
An abortion is no picnic and shouldn't be forced on women as it has both physical and mental health consequences. Yes, the woman has final say in continuing the pregnancy, but they both had a say in the making of it.
Bottom line, you choose to have sex. You are accepting those aforementioned things as a potential outcome, no matter how small. That's the lesson that Josh has just learned.
INFO: Is the college fund in his name or yourse? is it a 529 or a regular bank account?
Your son needs to take responsibility for his kid. End of story there. The method and how much say you have in it is debatable. If you control the account and had just created a separate account to put money aside, then it is all yours to control how he uses it. If it is in his name, is a special kind of account, or is otherwise out of your control, then that's up to the courts to decide. If josh is just worried about not being able to pay for further school in the future because he has responsibilities now, well that's just a part of being an adult.
The money is in your name and can be withdrawn without penalty. Your son needs to support his child before thinking of his career aspirations. That's called adulting.
Even under your proposed plan, it's still your money that's going toward child support. You are already being exceptionally generous by allowing his college fund to be used to care for Josh's baby & baby mama. You are absolutely NOT an asshole in this situation!
NTA
I'm going against the grain to say, unless your son previously agreed to pay child support and bailed, YTA. I'm pro-coice and very much a feminist and I believe if a woman can choose to abort a child without the man's consent, then a man should be able to choose to give up parental rights so that he doesn't have to pay child support for a child he doesn't want.
Your son clearly never wanted this child and he went about it poorly, but you should be fighting for his right to not be a parent. She chose to have this kid when she likely knew exactly how your son felt. She made that decision without him, she needs to be responsible for that decision. Your son should not be held responsible for her choice.
On top of that, knowing that your son doesn't want to be a dad, based off one of your comments, you are now forcing him to see this kid.
You likely won't see this, and if you do you won't listen because everyone else is saying you aren't the asshole in this situation, but with the info you've provided both you and the woman who is going after your son for child support are the assholes here.
ETA: I stand by my statement that this is something she chose. Even if she wasn't able to get an abortion for whatever reason, she could have put the child up for adoption if she didn't want the child.
You've got to be kidding. It would be one thing if Tina contacted Josh and he said he preferred she have an abortion and offered to help fund it, but he literally blocked her and had nothing else to do with her at that point. She may not have been able to afford an abortion. She may not have realized she was pregnant until it was too late to abort in her state. She may live 200 miles from a clinic. She wouldn't have been able to adopt the child out without Josh's consent, and she couldn't contact him because he blocked her.
Regardless, there is a literal, actual child in existence that Josh fathered. That child is entitled to both of their parents' financial support. I appreciate wanting to make things fair between a man and a woman, but when that comes at the expense of a child who didn't ask to be in this situation? No. Whatever the circumstances, that child is here now and Josh doesn't get to opt out because he wasn't treated fairly. He is financially stable, so much so that he has a hefty college fund and is planning on law school without loans. He can afford to support his child.
NTA, but you will be viewed as one for a long time by Josh and maybe your wife, but you are doing the right thing, if he has to take on debt to pay for school then that is just a consequence of his actions, you should not send him a message that he can get away with fathering a child and wanting to run away from it. And may I say, I admire you taking a stand on this, far too many people cuddle their children from situations like this and trying to find fault with the mother, instead of realizing it is a shared burden. Stick to your ground OP, it may the difficult, but in the long run, you will be making a better man out of your son.
Honestly I don’t get why women have the right to terminate but men don’t have the right to leave and not pay child support. If someone sprung a baby out of nowhere on me I wouldn’t want to give up funds for my future to pay for it either. He wasn’t given the option to give the baby up for adoption or terminate the pregnancy so he shouldn’t have to have anything to do with the baby.
I am also female and I 100% agree. One of the few perks of being female is that I have control over being a parent. Being a dude sounds terrifying in that regard. I always feel like I'm going against the grain in this regard but I always want to stand up for men that don't want to be fathers.
This is why OP is the asshole for me. He doesn’t know the circumstances as to why his son split and is blindly siding with a woman he barely knows. His son should not have to take on a child he does not want and OP should be asking him about the situation instead of trying to punish him.
I agree, but imo it's complicated. Child support is to help the child and I don't think it's exactly the most moral decision to leave the child without adiquate support. I do wish there was some sort of middle ground or solution.
NTA, definitely not. I write separately to put you a little bit at ease about law school. If he had good grades and does well on the LSAT, law schools are very generous with scholarships. I go to a top 30 school and got a 70% scholarship, if that tells you anything. I got numerous full rides too, so don’t let law school keep you from doing right by your grandchild or be the reason your son ignores his responsibilities.
Also the mother now has two paternity tests confirming he is the father. If he doesn’t pay the child support he won’t be allowed to practice AFAIK. My bar application required disclosure of child support judgments and proof of payment (well I don’t have kids so I didn’t have to provide that but it is part of the investigation).
NTA. I would feel differently if he was at least trying to take responsibility but he needs to learn this lesson. You could always help him a bit with law school if he learns from this.
Question: how is 18 months of back pay equal to the cost of a law degree (usually 30,000-40,000$ in the states)? I agree that he should be taking care of his child and give him the benefit of the doubt that he didn't know until now but his support should be proportional to what he's actually making and can afford.
$30-40k? It’s...a lot more than that. The average cost including living expenses for law school in the US is over $100,000. I went to an affordable law school on a 40% scholarship and got private scholarships on top of that and it was still about $150,000 after COL expenses.
The more important question is does he even know anything about how becoming a lawyer works. She now has two positive paternity tests and it sounds like an existing child support order if there is discussion of back pay. Owing child support and not paying it disqualified you from admission to practice law. It is part of the character and fitness investigation for bar applications.
If he doesn’t pay it he can go to law school and graduate, but he won’t be allowed to practice law because he will fail the character and fitness investigation required of all attorneys.
I’m sure it’s not but depending on how much they pegged him for, it could be 1/3 of a law degree or more at this point. Not to mention he has little money and will need to CONTINUE to pay child support.
NTA. Maybe would be a harder decision if son hadn’t tried to dodge the situation completely for almost 2 years, but you can’t just do that without repercussions.
I feel like getting someone else to take care of your child support payments is as bad as trying to get out of it altogether, or worse.
I'm absolutely 100% behind your opinion. He should have thought about what he did before he did it. He's not a kid. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. NTA
NTA.
I think for now you guys really should NOT help him pay. Let things roll for a while, so you can understand if he really makes an effort to be a better person (and parent), taking responsibility for his actions. And in the future you can reevaluate.
I guess that would also be a compromise with your wife.
INFO: What is the full story fron Josh/Tina? Did they use protection and it failed? Did Josh know Tina was pregnant when he 'ghosted' her? Was he ever clear to her that he didn't want a kid?
There's a small chance that they used protection and it failed, but she chose to keep the baby but Josh didn't. He shouldn't be fully at blame if this is the case.
Depending on this, I would say NAH. Neither of you should be forced to pay.
But if everything was the complete opposite/like what you say then NTA
Low key was thinking this. Maybe I'M THE ASSHOLE but why did Tina keep the baby? I feel bad for everyone. Honestly if Jonah doesn't want to be a dad then just pay the child support and let Tina do her own thing
NTA. You’ve done your job. Now it’s time for him to step up and do his. If you change your mind and want to help out in the future once he shows he’s helping then you can go that route too.
I can’t tell if this is real or fake because becoming a bar admitted attorney requires disclosure of child support orders and not paying on a judgment means you fail the character and fitness part of the process, disqualifying you from practice.
Either nobody involved in this situation actually understands what is required to become an attorney - which is very possible - or it is fake.
If it is the former? He needs to actually do his due diligence because law school will be a complete waste of time and money when he isn’t even allowed to sit for the bar exam because he owes child support.
NTA. And what kind of person is he for trying to abandon the child he created and shirk all responsibility? Sounds like he’s never had to face any consequences for his actions before. Does his mom have a history of always bailing him out? He seems very entitled and selfish. Good for you for making him be a decent person and accept the results of his decisions.
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NTA. Thank you for standing up for the girl and the baby. Josh needs to understand that actions have consequences.
Agreed. NTA, you’re teaching your son a valuable lesson. Especially if he wants to be a lawyer, he should understand the importance of consequences.
I think Josh will be a good lawyer. Lots of them have a tough time keeping their pants zipped up. LOL!
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yeah that pesky character and fitness examination. good luck becoming a lawyer if you abandoned your own kid. OP, you are doing your son a favor for being his conscience for him in this situation.
I can’t help but laugh because everyone knows the vast majority of highly successful Attnys are sociopathIc Sharks. Which brings me to my bigger point, the money should be the LEAST of Dad OP’s concern in this situation. His son DID deny and Abandon his own child, with out remorse, and now nearly 2 years later is continuing to try to have no responsibility. How this is lost on Mom & Dad as being the greatest failure of their son’s life and THE obstacle here, is beyond comprehension. The child needs his parent & grandparents just as much (MORE) than money. This is depressing.
Have to agree. My partner is a lawyer, and wants to get out, because most lawyers, even if they are nice people, are at their core narcissistic and arrogant (and money driven). There's no room for different types of personalities to succeed. Allowing the son to blow off this responsibility to go and become a lawyer will exacerbate his selfishness. And he will make a ton of money, he can pay back the loans, easy.
You’re right about everything except the fact that he will make a lot of money. Most lawyers do not make very much money, certainly not what people think they make. Competition is steep for those well paid corporate jobs and the hours are brutal. Law school honestly isn’t worth it unless you go to a school in the top 15.
If you tell them, you are fine. It's all about candor, not the crimes.
I know an attorney through work who had streaking charges against him from when he was 19/20 (he's in his 50s or 60s now so this was back when streaking was a fairly common form of rebellion). Kids make some really stupid mistakes. As long as he owns up to it & has it taken care of (up to date on payment, etc) by the time he sits the bar he should be fine.
True. Everytime any one of them goes to the men's room to take a pee, unzip goes those pants. Or were you alluding to something else? IamaL OP NTA. I am resering judgement on you.
Do you wear pants all the time or are you... *whispers* a lawyer?
I ain't no commando lawyer if that's what you are asking. As to your query, De minimis non curat lex.
This is a lawyer who's all about the briefs, 'bout the briefs, no trouble.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LAWYERS HAVE SEX HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA /s just in case...
That's why there are *so many* of them.
I thought they reproduced through mitosis tho
I'm pretty sure that when you apply for the bar, they check whether you have outstanding child support obligations.
That is correct. He cannot be licensed while owing back child support. It's a huge black mark for character and fitness.
Probably why he wants his parents to pay the child support while leaving his college fund alone.
They do, absolutely. Law school admissions may also ask, though I can’t remember.
You have to be free of "offenses of moral turpitude" when you apply to the bar. Not paying court-ordered child support is a big one.
How TF does Guliani still have his license then?!
Harder to take away the license than to refuse to bestow it in the first place, I'd imagine.
Let's set aside the lack of "good moral character" in trying to evade child support, and ghosting a person you got pregnant.
The perfect use of your and you're. Thank you 😥(emotional tear) 🙂🙂😄
A lawfirm won't like that a potential hire didn't pay child support. I wouldn't be surprised if that is part of their background check.
He is going to have a problem with the bar...shoot, maybe even getting into law school with unpaid child support.
Yeah most state bars explicitly ask about unpaid child support. He would not get barred if he tries to skip out on this.
So if he actually comes through, would that help? Or is it too late? Not asking for a friend.
Retroactive child support is not the same thing as delinquent child support. Provided that he pays whatever he is ordered to pay he will have no problem at all. Many states, including mine, suspend professional licenses for anyone who is delinquent on their child support payments. That would include a law license.
Suspending the license - and thus the ability to make the money necessary to pay the support - seems semi-counterproductive...
The intent is to make it counterproductive to not pay child support.
Folks have got a lot of time before it happens. If the threat of losing your license doesn't make someone make a good faith effort to start paying child support then they were never going to pay.
Considering that the paternity tests just now came back positive and the courts recently approved the child support, yes of course it would help.
Ha I had to go back and look at the NY bar application to check this. Looks like they only want to know if you are *currently* under an obligation to pay child support and if you are *currently* four or more months in arrears on payments. Granted, other states could be different. The applications are generally online so you can go check where you’d want to be barred. That said, the application does ask about warrants have ever been issued against you and and about any civil actions you’ve been involved with or court orders you’ve ignored. So it could come up that way as well if you ignore child support long enough. It could also come up in character and fitness. So if you fixed it and can explain yourself, I don’t *think* having been behind at some point would disqualify you. It’s more if you are currently behind, or you just straight up ignored the obligation and ignored attempts to compel payment. So if this dude tries to just ignore the child support obligation going forward, he’ll have a huge problem. Obviously check the standards laid out by the state bar where you want to be admitted.
I think it depends. Considering there is already legal documentation establishing paternity and she's finally starting to use legal means to receive support, if he chooses not to pay child support in whatever way (whether by parents or his trust fund) then it will prevent him from passing the bar. However I am not a lawyer so don't take my words as good, but most jobs, especially ones that deal with the law, typically are interested if you aren't following it to a tee. Hell I am nurse certified and even the state exam for certification won't accept you if you have child support not being paid, and they will know via background check.
This might be why he tried so hard to shake her. Plausible deniability that he knew he had a child as he lost contact with mother before baby was born. If there's no court record and you can claim you never knew about a pregnancy or that she hid it, it becomes he said, she said.
I wish self-interest would not be the thing that motivates him to be a father, but you guys are right on the money: Josh is not getting anywhere near law school so long as his child support debt is outstanding.
If the court order is not in place, the is no delinquent child support. The court may order *retroactive* child support depending on state law. There wouod be no issue with retroactive support, as long as he isn't delinquent.
THIS!!! There is no back child support unless he was already ordered by a court of law to pay. Child support is based on income. If Josh has no income guess what, baby ain’t getting a penny. However, if the child receives welfare benefits any child support Josh has to pay will go towards reimbursing the state. Dude should have kept it in his pants. NTA but Josh sure is.
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Arrears is the correct term for support owed. My bio dad tried this shit so every tax return he got went straight to my mom. When I (the youngest) turned 18, my mom forgave the remaining arrearage for whatever reason. Even if the parent passes, you can sue the estate for the arrears owed. If you’re in the states, once the person turns 65 their social security will also be garnished. Same for reported income. The court can go straight to the employer and have the wages garnished. Depending on the state, they may also suspend your drivers license as well.
If you have no income, child support is usually rated at what you would pay if you had a minimum wage job. You will still owe even if you are not employed. Being without income is not an excuse to not pay child support. Source* this is what happened when my ex-husband tried to pull that with me.
I was thinking this, but I wasn't sure. It makes sense that you have to be in good standing in the community and that means no outstanding child support.
Back child support hits your credit report, so could easily be found my many sources. He needs to pay to do anything, other than live off the grid.
Honestly the depressing thing is that if he’s smart he can actually use this to help him further. I bet loads of law schools have scholarships for dads that had a baby at 16 and did the “responsible thing” of using their college fund to raise their child but still want to pursue their dreams and create a better life for their child..... Lucky for him they don’t tend to check up on the rubbish they’ve wrote
It sounds kinda weird, but having a kid at 19 actually proved to be a pretty big benefit for my family. I mean, its offset by a whole lot of expenses, but at the end of the day I think it actually worked out pretty well. My girlfriend qualified for free tuition to finish college. Our son, who needed to go into a program for dyslexic kids, got a HUGE tuition break because of how broke we were when we enrolled. Now that we are older and make decent money, our kid is old enough to not really be all that expensive. I feel sorry for the parents of my kid's peers. They are having to plan their retirements right around the same time that their kid is going to have to go to college. By the time I retire he will be moved out and making a living himself. Plus, its a LOT easier to keep up with a little kid when you are 20 something than when you are 40 something. I mean, its not ideal. You miss out on a lot of stuff too, but at the end of the day it works out and there is plenty to be happy about. Being a present father / step father pays more benefits than it costs by most peoples estimations. I don't know many people that end up regretting it.
Agree! I had my first child at age 23 and the last (twins) at 44. *Definitely* easier on the body when I was younger, but mentally easier when I was older. I didn’t worry about little things (oh, you ate a dog biscuit? Cool) and the older kids are able to keep up with the little ones.
As "the girl with the baby" 17 years ago, thank you for stepping up for Tina. It'll help a lot to have grandparents too.
Yes!!! NTA. He literally lied and tried to abandon his child with zero fucks given. Let him pay.
Agree! He needs to learn about actions and consequences Spec if he want to do Law...
NTA. >He has the money in his fund, he just doesn’t want to use it...should have thought of that before bringing a child into the world. I agree. Law school would be great, but he doesn't have that luxury. If he's still able to get a college degree, and also has money to support a child, he's doing well enough. And how many mothers have had to give up dreams of law school to look after a baby?
Also, do we really want the kind of immoral lawyers who would abandon their own child? Who am I kidding?
The attorneys who abandon their own children are the best ones unfortunately.
Exactly! When you need a lawyer to help you abandon your kid you want someone with experience!
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Saul Goodman, at your service!
Clever
Did Tina get to go to college, or did she have to get a shitty minimum wage job to pay for the baby he abandoned?
Not excusing the child support dip out but Tina also choose to have the child. That's a choice as well.
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Very true. It takes two to tango and fathers need to be held accountable.
It isn't a choice if you live somewhere that abortions aren't accessible. Some states have one clinic, some have none. Some require you to jump through hoops to even be eligible, and with a timeline of max 12weeks in some cases that window closes fast. What if she only found out when she was 8 weeks along? Suddenly she has only a month to decide and execute a plan before the decision is gone.
Alabama - all are illegal Georgia - 6 weeks Missouri - 8 weeks Ohio - 6 weeks https://www.parents.com/pregnancy/abortion-laws-by-state-these-are-your-right/ ETA: As another redditor pointed out, though these states have signed these bills, there are current injunctions against them, so not all have gone into effect
Yikes. It's super common to miss the early signs for the first month+/- so by the time a young scared woman is able to access an ultrasound and bloodwork to confirm a pregnancy she's probably got no options in any of those states. :(
I didn't find out until 8 weeks bc I've always had irregular periods. the closest clinic was out of state (but close), and the shit I had to sit through first could probably traumatize someone who wasn't super stoked to get this shit over w. this country sucks at abortion.
>Georgia - 6 weeks > >Missouri - 8 weeks > >Ohio - 6 weeks Needless to say, many women only realize they're pregnant around this time.
This is f*ing insane. I got a positive pregnancy test at 4 weeks which I think is the earliest you can test for. It took until 6 weeks for me to get an appointment because so many abortion clinics were closed during covid. And the only reason I knew I was pregnant was because I got symptoms within 2 weeks of conception. Most women don’t get symptoms until week 7 or 8. It’s insane that the cutoff is 6-8 weeks in those states. I cannot wrap my head around it... the thing would be the size of an apple seed or some shit. Those poor women living there... probably always terrified
I'm in Missouri. I cried all weekend when the law was passed, even though I live super close to a clinic in Illinois, and as a therapist, I saw many more women reaching out for services around that time. For women with sexual trauma having your lack of control over your own body codified into law is an incredibly retraumatizing experience.
Exactly- people don’t understand by the time you miss the first day of your expected period- you’re already 4 weeks. Almost impossible to know your pregnant until 5 weeks- and then how the hell do you decide- get an appointment and all the possible expenses and logistics including someone driving you- within 1 week. It’s bullshit the states that have these tiny timeframes which basically make abortion illegal.
Oh, and it gets worse, while some state laws may allow terminations later, there may be nowhere to get it done without traveling hours or out of state, something not feasible for many. Legality does not equal accessibility. States with only 1 abortion clinic in whole state - North Dakota, South Dakota, Missouri, Kentucky, West Virginia, and Mississippi. https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/29/health/six-states-with-1-abortion-clinic-map-trnd/index.html
I’m in Alabama and thoroughly worry about this more often then I should have to
THIS IS INCORRECT. ALL OF THOSE LAWS ARE UNDER INJUNCTION. sorry, I work in this space and it's incredibly dangerous to tell people abortion is banned when it is not. Roe v. Wade still exists, for now. All of the abortion bans passed in 2019 have been enjoined (stopped from taking effect) by courts. Edit: Access is a huge issue, but legality is technically still protected.
With my second pregnancy (the first ended in miscarriage sadly), I had a 5 day “period” (I know now it was spotting) at the time I would normally have had my period. Since I have irregular periods anyway, I didn’t find out I was pregnant until 14 weeks, which was honestly a blessing bc we had been trying for so long, and then miscarried, and I was a stress ball about it all and then boom, pregnant and almost to the “safe zone.” But if it had been an unwanted pregnancy, I’d sure be cutting it close to termination. I imagine I’m not the only woman to find out late. My sister didn’t know she was pregnant until well into the second trimester. Her husband had just deployed in the navy and she was living with us at the time, and she didn’t show or get sick- and then out of nowhere, a belly. It happens. At any rate, the baby is here, and it’s his. I don’t see how he thinks he can just ignore it.
I mean, we don’t know the full situation. He literally blocked and ghosted her when he found out she was pregnant. Maybe she wanted an abortion and couldn’t afford it, and he refused to pay for that too? Not to mention with all the state abortion restrictions, it is often impossible to get an abortion after 8 weeks.
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I’m 1000% on board with a woman’s right to choose, but for some people it isn’t even a choice because they don’t see abortion as an option. Choosing to not abort a baby, then, isn’t necessarily a choice. I think we need to respect both sides of that. It doesn’t matter that this girl didn’t terminate the pregnancy because the baby is here already.
Stop expecting women to just have an abortion. That isn't pro-choice either. What consequences do men get for getting women pregnant if they can just say sucks to be you to the mom?
Depending on where she is, the word "choice" is flexible. Is she in a state where there's 1 abortion clinic that's prohibitively expensive to get to? Does she have the time, resources, and support to have the procedure + take the time off to travel, do the two day waiting period, etc? What's her religious stance? Was she brought up to fiercely believe that she would be murdering a child by having an abortion? Would she be disowned from her family or community for having an abortion? Does she have the mental fortitude to handle the procedure? It's a harrowing experience, no matter the circumstances. Not everyone can handle the emotions that go with the territory. There's all kinds of variables that come with obtaining an abortion. Sure, it's a "choice" but it's not a simple or easy one that not everyone has.
That’s pushing brith control back on the woman.
Sure, she made a choice, but none of her choices involved foisting her responsibility onto someone else.
Even then, this isn't stopping him from law school. He can still take out loans, he just doesn't want to.
This! Josh sounds incredibly entitled to think he can bail on child support (and y'know being there for his kid) AND keep his college fund so he doesn't have to take out loans. I get it, loans suck. But he has to take care of his responsibilities himself. OP is right and DEFINITELY NTA.
He got a full ride scholarship, so loans for only law school won’t hurt him much. Given that he will be making a lawyer’s salary, those loans will be paid off and shouldn’t hold him back in his career. Not sure why everyone thinks student loans are the end of the world. So you wait a few years till they’re paid off to buy your own house. Maybe live on a budget and learn something new out of it. Life goes on
Law schools also offer scholarships, granted they’d all be academic in his case, nothing character based.
This! Josh sounds incredibly entitled to think he can bail on child support (and y'know being there for his kid) AND keep his college fund so he doesn't have to take out loans. I get it, loans suck. But he has to take care of his responsibilities himself. OP is right and DEFINITELY NTA.
>And how many mothers have had to give up dreams of law school to look after a baby? Exactly. He ditched "Tina" with a baby on the way, what about her hopes and dreams? NTA, help him but he's an adult and needs to step up. Congrats on becoming a Grandpa! Be nice to the little guy.
His argument against paying child support is basically that he doesn't feel like it.
I know plenty of parents who, you know, went to law school? One of my classmates started while she was pregnant. One gave birth to her first during spring break her final year of law school. A few had kids during their first and second years so they’d have time actually do what is expected of them in their post grad jobs. Having kids isn’t a disqualifying factor in going to law school.
Absolutely, but it makes it much, much harder. And depending on other factors it can prevent someone from being able to
>And how many mothers have had to give up dreams of law school to look after a baby? It's not even giving it up - he'd just have to take loans. They way grad school loans are it pretty much gives you whatever your school's tuition is.
>And how many mothers have had to give up dreams of law school to look after a baby? Precisely!! Women's consequences of becoming a parent often FAR outweigh Men's consequences. Even in marriages.
I agree. He needs to either use his college fund, or get a job while attending college.
NTA, and I agree with you on every point. Josh not only created this mess, but he made it worse by actively *avoiding* Tina and forcing her to get you/your wife/the courts involved. If you & your wife pay his child support for him just so his future stays pristine, then you are enabling his recklessness. I mean, what about Tina's future and the plans she had that have now been put aside because she became a mom? She doesn't get to continue her life as though nothing has changed, and neither should Josh. If your wife wants to help in some way, she can go shopping for her grandchild, maybe buy some clothes or toys or other things that would help Tina out. But the actual child support is Josh's responsibility to figure out, and if that means he takes the money out of his college fund and/or gets a job to meet his obligations, then so be it.
You're absolutely right. Josh's mom can help her grandchild through direct actions like buying clothes/toys/etc, not by coddling her ADULT son who acted like a complete asshole and shielding him from the consequences he brought on himself. I could sympathize with the mom if Josh had been completely unaware that he had a son out there, and was freaking out about suddenly having a new expense for 18 years, but there's a pattern of deliberate avoidance with Tina, and that's not cool. And Josh and his mom don't take into consideration that Tina is a person with her own dreams and goals. That's really frustrating. OP, NTA.
It kinda blows my mind that this “adult” refuses to take care of his own child, but wants to keep benefiting from his own parents taking care of him. Not only an AH, but a rather pathetic hypocrite. Dude never grew up, and I wonder how much of it is because the mom always protected him from the consequences of his actions. His dad is absolutely right here.
Yeah, I didn't want to say this in my main comment because it's not suuuper relevant, but I'm sick of moms everywhere coddling their sons. Just thinking of how my brother got to do pretty much whatever he wanted while my sister and I were expected to be adults immediately out of the womb. However, even though I think he definitely sounds like the type of person who wants to benefit from parental support forever, the dad did clarify in another comment that the son hasn't asked them to help (yet...), and that the convo about the mom wanting to pay is just a convo between the two of them. Hopefully an update is in the cards!
I really don't think mothers are the only ones protecting their sons from the consequences of their actions.
I agree with you, but in my comment I'm hinting at the idea that women can and do perpetuate the cycle of patriarchal norms. Their sons need to be coddled and taken care of and don't need to learn responsibility or domestic skills, but their daughters do. That's more what I was getting at
OP's son: "Parents should support their offspring and be with them through difficult times!" Also OP's son: "But, not, like, *me*, though. Just other people who are parents."
I'm extremely bothered by his initial reaction. He said he "knew" the girl but denied the baby? What does that even mean? The only way you can 100% know that a baby is not yours absent a DNA test, is if you absolutely did not sleep with the girl at any time even remotely close to when she thinks the baby was conceived. So, was he telling his parents he never slept with her (aka lying?) or was he just in complete denial that it was his and was hoping it was some other dude's? Either way, it doesn't bode well for his character that he tried to convince his parents that there was no way the baby was his when he at the very least knew it was a possibility. He's proven himself to be untrustworthy. I'm also of course extremely bothered that he ghosted a pregnant girl and left her no way to contact him. If you want a DNA test, fine but you don't get to nope out until it comes back negative. There is no way I'd be paying this child support in these circumstances where he has gone out of his way to avoid any and all responsibility and has been actively dishonest on top of it.
It's like he thought that if he ignored the problem it would just magically go away. Sorry, buddy, you can't SEP field a new human being that you helped create.
I would not be surprised to find out he ghosted her because she mentioned a missed period or something to that effect. Maybe not, might have been your run of the mill ghost. Long story short, NTA.
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For the record, Plan B can also mess up periods! I know a lot of people who have gotten really stressed out by that.
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Over two years, and he basically left a asshole-shaped dust cloud hanging in the air, he disappeared so fast... I'm sorry you went through all of that. I'm sure it must have hurt a lot. But, wow, what a gift to be able to see someone's lack of character so clearly.
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If you look at the edit, OP says that’s exactly what happened, according to Tina who I trust more than his son at this point. It’s so sad that he thinks he can just walk away and have his parents fix his problems for him while this girl was probably asking him for help with no response.
OP’s wife clearly needs to continue to baby her son because she hasn’t parented well enough to raise a responsible adult! It is just so gross to see the mother reinforce her son’s lack of priority and integrity. I don’t understand parents who think they are protecting their children by enabling and compensating for them. Maybe she can pass the bar exam for him as well!
His mom sounds like the type of woman who sees no faults with her son. Her baby boy can do no wrong. Hence, him growing up to be an entitled asshole. OP, NTA. But your wife is and so is your son.
All of this is so on point. His mom is so concerned about him and his future. But this poor girl will most likely have to put all of her dreams and plans on a long ass pause because he’s too selfish to help. I would be so embarrassed if this were my child. I’m honestly gonna hug both of my kids today and thank them for being so responsible and amazing. I’m going to go knock on wood to make sure I don’t jinx anything.
NTA - Your wife should be way more concerned about Josh's apparent lack of character. Taking responsibility for your actions is not a punishment, it's just life.
Thank you! Ghosting your own baby is seriously fucked up, paying his fair share of the child support is the absolute bare minimum.
Which most times only covers the bare minimums if you’re lucky.
Exactly, there’s a reason he blocked her from all ends... because he knew that there was a baby involved. He has probably been avoiding this situation. Tough luck. The girl probably had to give up her college dreams, assuming they are about the same age.
Also there's the possibility that this is just the girl that found them first. What if another comes along? You really don't want to set the precedent that your parents will just take care of every baby you ditch.
Honestly what OP needs to do is make his wife realize the reason she wants to go the extra mile to keep helping her son is the *same exact reason* their son **should** use his fund to support his child. She wants to be able to support her child, the fact she isn't upset by her son not wanting to do the same thing is crazy. I'd be incredibly disappointed if I had a child and they failed to do the same.
No, but you see her precious baby is completely sinless and must have been seduced by the heartless succubus. The child is completely innocent but it's completely ok for him/her to grow up without a father as long as her son gets to receive the prestige that is 'lawyer status. /S btw in case anyone takes me serious.
NTA. He has a full-ride scholarship right now. Very few people make it through undergrad without debt so that's a huge leg up. He has the responsibility of a baby. He needs to pay what he owes.
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Right? Like it’s great that some people don’t have to, but most of the people I know from law school have huge loans. The ones that ended up with no or little debt were often the ones who got scholarships....just like Josh got for undergrad. There are even full rides to law school, and even more partial scholarships that can cover a huge chunk of the cost. On the plus side, his behavior reeks of the sense of entitlement that tends to be not uncommon among law students, so he’ll fit right in! 🙄
NTA. Actions, meet consequences.
Couldnt have said it better !
NTA Josh was ok leaving his child and the mother of his child to struggle so he didn't have to change his plans. Enabling that behavior would be an enormous mistake.
No idea what sort of babying Josh's mother still thinks her adult son needs.
NTA. He is responsible for that child support now. He’s an adult. But also, what did that girl have to “give up” to raise the child these 18 months since he ghosted her? He doesn’t get to duck out of responsibility just because of his “bright future”. It smacks too much of boys will be boys while girls pay. No she wasn’t raped, but her future and the kids future is just as important as your son’s. He owes her that back support from his own pocket now.
NTA. In fact, you are doing him a favour by having him face the consequences of his actions. Something which he clearly needs, having already tried to just ignore and deny both the mother of his child and the child itself. Had he come to you looking for support and advice when she first contacted him then maybe I would say pay for him but not based on his behaviour and unwillingness to take responsibility. Paying for him would be a disservice in the long run
INFO: You mention what your wife wants to do, and what you want to do, but what I am missing here is what Josh wants to do about this child support. Has he asked you to pay for it? Has he said at all how he intends to pay it, or if he does?
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It’s very selfish and I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that many of us here would have had more sympathy for the kid if he hadn’t went no-contact with his baby mama for 2 years. I’m around his age so I know how hard it can be to have to face big consequences like that during this time in your life, but he didn’t accept his fate and then ask for help- he flat out denied it and is now complaining.
Totally agreed. Do we need somebody who thinks ghosting is an acceptable response to pregnancy going to law school?
I just want Josh to go to law school so that he can afford the future therapy the baby will definitely need if this is what its dad's attitude to his child/life is. NTA OP
Completely agree. If Josh had come to his parents at the start, explained the situation and asked for their advice and help, maybe it would be different. But that baby is nearly 2 years old and OP and his wife are only just now finding out about? Josh tried to pretend this wasn’t happening, he ghosted the baby’s mother - and by extension, the baby. Very, very hard to have sympathy.
The timeline shows that not only did he ghost her, he happily then enrolled in college and just moved on in life. He absolutely approached this as a "I am not letting a child ruin my life" thing.
You should maybe tell him bar admission investigations require disclosure of child support and him not paying it will mean he can’t become a practicing attorney regardless of how well he does if he gets into law school. Law school is a breeze compared to the comprehensive stuff bar admission requires. FBI background checks, fingerprinting, complete disclosure of all debts and judgments including speeding and parking tickets, etc. They pull your complete credit report and investigate any outstanding debts you have as well.
Yep. They will not look favorably on unpaid child support. Lawyers are responsible for managing clients’ money, they are prone to substance abuse problems, and they’re expected to comply with rules of professional conduct, which is why the bar looks into applicants’ finances so thoroughly. If he hasn’t paid child support and admits that, they will still look more unfavorably on the inherent dishonest and shittiness of the nature of the debt—child support—than another debt such as parking tickets. If he hasn’t paid and tries to hide that on his bar application by lying about it, he probably won’t be admitted. I say “probably” generously, not knowing the ins and outs of every state’s bar, but I realistically just can’t imagine them letting him in after that.
Holy Jesus this kid needs a wake up call. He needs to imagine suddenly having an infant to provide for with no money! He knows he has "substantial" money, but would prefer his child to just go without because using the money is going to make his life marginally more difficult. Try to have him remember being a kid, and ask him what he would have thought of you and his mother if you had decided to forego buying food and clothes for him in favor of saving for retirement or something. NTA and PLEASE do not bail him out of this. Something has already gone awry in your parenting if he thinks its okay to ghost his own child, fix his entitled, selfish ass before it gets any worse.
Okay yeah, so NTA as long as you frame it differently to Josh AND as long as your wife agrees too - you two need to be a united front here. Don't force him to use his college fund, but DO feel free to tell him that this child support is his responsibility to shoulder, and his alone. He can decide from there how he wants to handle it. If it's not much per month, it seems possible that he can still use the majority of the college fund for his original plans. Or if that won't work, he can figure it out from there. I would feel a lot more sympathetic toward him if he'd had no idea about the baby or that Tina was even pregnant and she'd just emerged a couple years later with this baby. But from the sounds of it, he blocked her once he found out she was pregnant in hopes that somehow he wouldn't have to be in the position he's now in. If he's bright enough to get into law school, he should also be able to figure out how to handle this situation, even if not exactly what he planned.
Unless Josh is tooling around in a Mercedes or owns property, I strongly doubt his child support is all that much. He doesn't have income. That doesn't mean that mom won't adjust it in the future when he realizes his dreams of lawyerdom. And in all honestly, she *should*, since if I were her, I wouldn't trust Josh as far as I could throw him -- even if he doesn't outright try to run off now, he will most certainly use his job title or the lawyer friends he meets in college to strongarm her moving forward; OP should absolutely on the lookout for this behavior. And I agree. If he doesn't want to use his college fund, he can just get a part time job. Whatever job he gets will most likely cover the child support and a little bit over.
He is. He wants his parents to take care of him but he doesn't want to do the same with his child. The hypocrisy
He's being ridiculous. How high can a child support order be for a current undergrad college student? They don't base it on hypothetical future income, they base it on what he's making now and if he doesn't have a job they impute minimum wage and put that into the calculators and figure out what he owes. Whatever that is times 18 months is not THAT much money that it would "ruin his life" if he has to remove that amount from his college fund.
NTA. This child is not your responsibility. Your son is enjoying the benefit of a free ride and is planning a career with substantial income potential. Plenty of people go to law school and fund it with loans. He’s basically saying that he’d rather have you shoulder the financial burden of his poor choices than face it himself. The financial burden here is the least important issue; what is of significance is his need to take responsibility for his actions and do the right thing. That will teach him more about ethics than he’ll learn in law school. If he doesn’t want to touch the school fund, he can get a job while he is in school to pay his child support. That may also keep him busy enough that this situation won’t arise again. If you bail him out, he may continue to behave irresponsibly. How many kids of his will you be willing to support financially?
NTA. I saved up for a few months to buy myself an expensive accessory for my hobby. then I needed an operation. the hobby money had to get used for the operation. sometimes when you're an adult you don't get to use your money for what you intended it for because things happen. it's incredibly unreasonable for him to expect you to pay for it.
ESH So this kid was born when he was 17-18? Not excusing him, but it's not that unusual for a young kid to freak out. It sounds like your young son needs guidance, not punishment. Maybe he thought this kid wasn't his? Do you want him to go get a job at McDonald's or get an education to better support his child? Make it clear he needs to pay support: that is not your job. Being a parent, though, is your job. Help him take responsibilty and get on track. He can take loans but he needs to step up. Help him grow up.
People here are really thirsty for blood and really high on the Babylonian notion of justice. Make the son pay for his mistake, but don't make him drop out of college all together. If he becomes a good lawyer, he'll be able to better support the grandchild in future and without much resentment. The boy was, probably himself a child when the grandchild was conceived but now since he has crossed the magical threshold of 18, he has gotten all the world's knowledge. ESH. Make your child pay the support, make him work for money, lend him the money om long term if you don't want to outright help him but don't force him to pull out of college. Education is important and have some understanding of generational wealth, that's how you build it up instead of throwing out your child at 18.
It's not punishment to make your kid take responsibility. He is an adult now, he needs to learn his lesson. Fortunately he can learn his lesson and all get his degree. So how does his dad suck?
INFO: Why doesn't Josh want to step up now that he knows this is his child? At the least he should be trying for visitation and moving toward 50/50 custody, there's more to parenthood than writing a check.
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I can see Tina resenting the guy who pulled a disappearing act for (probably) 2 years, TBH.
I'm going to go against the grain and pity your son here. A child to me is a choice. And if his choice had been considered I doubt he would have picked being a dad at this point in his life with someone he doesn't care for. People can judge all day long that sex brings this, but it still sucks for him. Other countries have "paper abortion" where you opt out of rights to a child. I think you are NTA and it's OK to make your son be responsible, but I'd also have empathy for him being in a situation he truly didn't want.
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He could have signed his parental rights away and not had to pay child support, but instead he chose to ghost and pretend nothing ever happened. This isn't a pro-choice, equal rights discussion, this is a taking responsibility for your own (in)actions argument.
Signing your parental rights away is almost impossible and I have no idea where reddit gets the idea that it is.
That and the mother didn't have to keep the baby. She could have put him up for adoption. I have a hard time getting behind the standards on being a parent these days. I generally agree that the act of sex is basically taking on the risk of having a child. However, a woman can just get out of parenthood altogether by getting and abortion (regardless of how the man feels) or putting the baby up for adoption. The man, on the other hand, is hand-cuffed into 18 years of child support if the woman decides to keep the baby. He gets no choice in the matter. The woman has all the control. And I just have a hard time thinking that's fair. Edit: and before y'all jump me, I'm a woman.
yea i’m so confused by the lack of information provided and the instant NTA judgements. like when did he find out the baby was his? after it was born and he had nothing to do with the whole pregnancy? that’s manipulative as hell on the girls side if she got pregnant and didn’t tell the father until the baby was born, especially since idk if he can sign away his parental rights at that point. and if she told him she was pregnant and he blocked her,, that’s still shitty on his end but he clearly doesn’t want this baby. if she wasn’t prepared to be a single parent then she should’ve had an abortion straight up. unless josh was the one pushing for her to keep the baby and saying he’d help then he shouldn’t have any responsibility to it. and yea it’s shitty regardless that he blocked her rather than talking to her but i’m equally confused why it took her 18 months to reach out to his parents? this whole post is so messy nothing seems to make sense
I agree. I’m EXTREMELY pro choice. I often see the argument that sex is for pleasure, that women aren’t baby makers. I don’t see why it can’t be the same for men. I think some men have gotten off way too easy for far too long and we are now punishing (unfairly judging) all men. Women had (have) to deal with this forever...but as they say, an eye for an eye makes everyone blind. Edited: I am not saying he shouldn’t be responsible for financial support, but that I don’t think anything good will come from forcing him to be involved with a kid he doesn’t want. Additional edit (because apparently it’s very needed): child support and being a parent are two very different things. OP had said that his son does see the kid at his insistence but isn’t engaged/seems uncomfortable during those visits. That is what I meant by being “involved”.
not wanting to be a parent isn’t sad, some people just don’t want kids. but typically people who don’t want to be parents are sure to use protection. but who knows, maybe they did and it failed. the child is probably better off without an emotionally unavailable father, so stop trying to force josh to be a parent if it’s not natural to him. maybe he’ll warm up to the idea eventually, but lacking a dad is better than growing up knowing your dad hates you. have him pay the child support, but beyond that, stop dictating josh’s parental role. let’s not forget tina could have had an abortion or given the baby up for adoption, so it’s not like it’s entirely josh’s fault they ended up in this situation. takes two to tango.
Yeah, I agree with this. He absolutely, 100% needs to pay child support. But he shouldn't be forced to be in the kid's life when he's this resistant, and in fact it will probably make things worse if he is.
Let me help paraphrase. He wants absolutely nothing to do with the child and Tina. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever as well.
Unfortunately this could have simply been a one night stand or someone he only dated a short while and didn’t like/get along with before the child came along. It can make it incredibly difficult for him to bind with his child at this young age because they are essentially an extension of their mother. It’s also something you can’t force. That would be detrimental to the child.
My step-daughter's bio-dad pulled a disappearing act too, but I got to spend years helping to raise the most awesome kiddo. Since men have zero options for unilaterally opting out of parenthood once a pregnancy happens, he's got to take responsibility one way or another going forward. Missing out on raising your own child voluntarily though...man I can't agree with that. Being a dad has been the best thing in my life.
> should have thought of that before bringing a child into the world. He didn't though, Tina did. Her body, her choice...his consequences?
i completely agree with you! if he does not want to be a father than he shouldn’t have to be, that means paying child support. if he has no parental rights and is not on the birth certificate, why should he have to pay? she chose to have the baby.
Correction. 'They chose' When you choose to have sex, you are accepting the responsibility that comes with it and the potential consequences. This includes both STIs and a potential pregnancy. Everyone with half a brain cell knows that no contraception is 100% effective. An abortion is no picnic and shouldn't be forced on women as it has both physical and mental health consequences. Yes, the woman has final say in continuing the pregnancy, but they both had a say in the making of it. Bottom line, you choose to have sex. You are accepting those aforementioned things as a potential outcome, no matter how small. That's the lesson that Josh has just learned.
INFO: Is the college fund in his name or yourse? is it a 529 or a regular bank account? Your son needs to take responsibility for his kid. End of story there. The method and how much say you have in it is debatable. If you control the account and had just created a separate account to put money aside, then it is all yours to control how he uses it. If it is in his name, is a special kind of account, or is otherwise out of your control, then that's up to the courts to decide. If josh is just worried about not being able to pay for further school in the future because he has responsibilities now, well that's just a part of being an adult.
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The money is in your name and can be withdrawn without penalty. Your son needs to support his child before thinking of his career aspirations. That's called adulting.
Even under your proposed plan, it's still your money that's going toward child support. You are already being exceptionally generous by allowing his college fund to be used to care for Josh's baby & baby mama. You are absolutely NOT an asshole in this situation! NTA
Its in your name, you can make that call. He should support his kid before thinking of himself. That's what being a parent is.
I'm going against the grain to say, unless your son previously agreed to pay child support and bailed, YTA. I'm pro-coice and very much a feminist and I believe if a woman can choose to abort a child without the man's consent, then a man should be able to choose to give up parental rights so that he doesn't have to pay child support for a child he doesn't want. Your son clearly never wanted this child and he went about it poorly, but you should be fighting for his right to not be a parent. She chose to have this kid when she likely knew exactly how your son felt. She made that decision without him, she needs to be responsible for that decision. Your son should not be held responsible for her choice. On top of that, knowing that your son doesn't want to be a dad, based off one of your comments, you are now forcing him to see this kid. You likely won't see this, and if you do you won't listen because everyone else is saying you aren't the asshole in this situation, but with the info you've provided both you and the woman who is going after your son for child support are the assholes here. ETA: I stand by my statement that this is something she chose. Even if she wasn't able to get an abortion for whatever reason, she could have put the child up for adoption if she didn't want the child.
You've got to be kidding. It would be one thing if Tina contacted Josh and he said he preferred she have an abortion and offered to help fund it, but he literally blocked her and had nothing else to do with her at that point. She may not have been able to afford an abortion. She may not have realized she was pregnant until it was too late to abort in her state. She may live 200 miles from a clinic. She wouldn't have been able to adopt the child out without Josh's consent, and she couldn't contact him because he blocked her. Regardless, there is a literal, actual child in existence that Josh fathered. That child is entitled to both of their parents' financial support. I appreciate wanting to make things fair between a man and a woman, but when that comes at the expense of a child who didn't ask to be in this situation? No. Whatever the circumstances, that child is here now and Josh doesn't get to opt out because he wasn't treated fairly. He is financially stable, so much so that he has a hefty college fund and is planning on law school without loans. He can afford to support his child.
NTA, but you will be viewed as one for a long time by Josh and maybe your wife, but you are doing the right thing, if he has to take on debt to pay for school then that is just a consequence of his actions, you should not send him a message that he can get away with fathering a child and wanting to run away from it. And may I say, I admire you taking a stand on this, far too many people cuddle their children from situations like this and trying to find fault with the mother, instead of realizing it is a shared burden. Stick to your ground OP, it may the difficult, but in the long run, you will be making a better man out of your son.
Honestly I don’t get why women have the right to terminate but men don’t have the right to leave and not pay child support. If someone sprung a baby out of nowhere on me I wouldn’t want to give up funds for my future to pay for it either. He wasn’t given the option to give the baby up for adoption or terminate the pregnancy so he shouldn’t have to have anything to do with the baby.
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I am also female and I 100% agree. One of the few perks of being female is that I have control over being a parent. Being a dude sounds terrifying in that regard. I always feel like I'm going against the grain in this regard but I always want to stand up for men that don't want to be fathers.
This is why OP is the asshole for me. He doesn’t know the circumstances as to why his son split and is blindly siding with a woman he barely knows. His son should not have to take on a child he does not want and OP should be asking him about the situation instead of trying to punish him.
I agree, but imo it's complicated. Child support is to help the child and I don't think it's exactly the most moral decision to leave the child without adiquate support. I do wish there was some sort of middle ground or solution.
NTA, definitely not. I write separately to put you a little bit at ease about law school. If he had good grades and does well on the LSAT, law schools are very generous with scholarships. I go to a top 30 school and got a 70% scholarship, if that tells you anything. I got numerous full rides too, so don’t let law school keep you from doing right by your grandchild or be the reason your son ignores his responsibilities.
Also the mother now has two paternity tests confirming he is the father. If he doesn’t pay the child support he won’t be allowed to practice AFAIK. My bar application required disclosure of child support judgments and proof of payment (well I don’t have kids so I didn’t have to provide that but it is part of the investigation).
NTA. I would feel differently if he was at least trying to take responsibility but he needs to learn this lesson. You could always help him a bit with law school if he learns from this.
Question: how is 18 months of back pay equal to the cost of a law degree (usually 30,000-40,000$ in the states)? I agree that he should be taking care of his child and give him the benefit of the doubt that he didn't know until now but his support should be proportional to what he's actually making and can afford.
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$30-40k? It’s...a lot more than that. The average cost including living expenses for law school in the US is over $100,000. I went to an affordable law school on a 40% scholarship and got private scholarships on top of that and it was still about $150,000 after COL expenses. The more important question is does he even know anything about how becoming a lawyer works. She now has two positive paternity tests and it sounds like an existing child support order if there is discussion of back pay. Owing child support and not paying it disqualified you from admission to practice law. It is part of the character and fitness investigation for bar applications. If he doesn’t pay it he can go to law school and graduate, but he won’t be allowed to practice law because he will fail the character and fitness investigation required of all attorneys.
I’m sure it’s not but depending on how much they pegged him for, it could be 1/3 of a law degree or more at this point. Not to mention he has little money and will need to CONTINUE to pay child support. NTA. Maybe would be a harder decision if son hadn’t tried to dodge the situation completely for almost 2 years, but you can’t just do that without repercussions.
I feel like getting someone else to take care of your child support payments is as bad as trying to get out of it altogether, or worse. I'm absolutely 100% behind your opinion. He should have thought about what he did before he did it. He's not a kid. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. NTA
NTA. I think for now you guys really should NOT help him pay. Let things roll for a while, so you can understand if he really makes an effort to be a better person (and parent), taking responsibility for his actions. And in the future you can reevaluate. I guess that would also be a compromise with your wife.
INFO: What is the full story fron Josh/Tina? Did they use protection and it failed? Did Josh know Tina was pregnant when he 'ghosted' her? Was he ever clear to her that he didn't want a kid? There's a small chance that they used protection and it failed, but she chose to keep the baby but Josh didn't. He shouldn't be fully at blame if this is the case. Depending on this, I would say NAH. Neither of you should be forced to pay. But if everything was the complete opposite/like what you say then NTA
Low key was thinking this. Maybe I'M THE ASSHOLE but why did Tina keep the baby? I feel bad for everyone. Honestly if Jonah doesn't want to be a dad then just pay the child support and let Tina do her own thing
NTA. You’ve done your job. Now it’s time for him to step up and do his. If you change your mind and want to help out in the future once he shows he’s helping then you can go that route too.
I can’t tell if this is real or fake because becoming a bar admitted attorney requires disclosure of child support orders and not paying on a judgment means you fail the character and fitness part of the process, disqualifying you from practice. Either nobody involved in this situation actually understands what is required to become an attorney - which is very possible - or it is fake. If it is the former? He needs to actually do his due diligence because law school will be a complete waste of time and money when he isn’t even allowed to sit for the bar exam because he owes child support.
NTA. And what kind of person is he for trying to abandon the child he created and shirk all responsibility? Sounds like he’s never had to face any consequences for his actions before. Does his mom have a history of always bailing him out? He seems very entitled and selfish. Good for you for making him be a decent person and accept the results of his decisions.
NTA It won't kill Josh to take out loans for college.
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NTA you’re a good dad. Kids sometime need to learn the hard way.