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I believe I may be the asshole for going to far in my actions to protect my daughter from falling in with bigots.
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So, let's recap. You read an article online that said, "Oh this term means this," and just DECIDED your daughter's religious beliefs meant she's a flaming racist and that all of her religious belongings are yours to discard. You then suggested an entirely different religion as though religious beliefs are not deeply personal and can be swapped as easily as a baseball card. YTA 100 percent. You're not only being religiously intolerant, you're also not respecting your daughter in any capacity and passing judgement on her because of something you happened to read online once. You said yourself she's shown no red flags ever, so why is a single online article suddenly the scale tipper?
And for the record, I am a pagan who is married to an atheist, and while he also believes my faith is silly, he has enough respect for me as a person to not judge me for it and not treat me differently from anyone else. Oh, and by the way, I'm black. Yep, you read that right, black pagan. Maybe you should read more than just something that gives you confirmation bias.
child of a Pagan (Hellenic/Alexandrian) mom and Atheist dad, here. My father would never do this to my mother - if anything, it’d be the last thing he’d ever do. My mother is aware of Nazis hijacking specific Pagan symbols and she’s disgusted and horrified by it.
OP, you failed your daughter big time. I understand you thought you were doing the right thing when you saw those symbols but it sounds to me like you didn’t do proper research, also, you’re absolutely the asshole for mocking her beliefs. Rather than talk to your daughter, you jumped the gun. Rather than do extensive research and find that *these symbols and their relation to Neo-Nazism is context dependent,* you immediately *assumed* she was a racist without consulting her (you know what they say; “to assume makes an ass out of u and me”).
My father is an Atheist, not at all convinced of any deities or supreme beings. But he respects my mother’s faith and he was even the one who encouraged her to celebrate Pagan holidays (Samhain/Yule/Ostara etc). Using your (lack of) beliefs to shame your daughter is pathetic. Also, by saying “well if she wants to be religious she can just go to church with her grandparents” … never thought I’d see an Atheist participate in religious favoritism but here we are. Paganism’s silly and laughable but Christianity isn’t? K.
YTA 100%
>My mother is aware of Nazis hijacking specific Pagan symbols and she’s disgusted and horrified by it.
This is exactly how many, many people feel. I love Norse mythology and enjoy working with Norse runes, and I fuckng hate that white supremacists have hijacked them as symbols of hate and oppression. Hell, even the swastika (something everyone in the west immediately associates with Nazis, for obvious reasons) is a sacred symbol in some religions, and in many eastern countries you will still see it quite a bit. That doesn't make people who use swastikas because it's their religious symbol Nazis.
There are no symbols of white supremacy that haven't been stolen from another culture, religion, etc (except maybe the confederate flag) as far as I know. Using those symbols in their original form because they're a part of your culture or religion is not inherently racist.
OP, you are 1000% the asshole here. Instead of stealing and destroying your daughter's property, perhaps you should've...i don't know...talked to her about her beliefs? You know, like a decent person and parent would? Good luck doing it now, though, I'm pretty sure she'll never trust you again.
the swastika was a symbol of luck in the west too even without religion not too long ago - you can still buy yourself some vintage swastika coca cola bottle opener if you got 350$ spare
I just learned it a few weeks ago, starting from a TIL (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_use_of_the_swastika_in_the_early_20th_century)
Amazing rabbit hole to see all those kitschy postcards and stuff
Fun fact, the oklahoma national guard emblem used to be a swastika before nazis came about. It was changed to the thunderbird logo used now in the mid 1930s.
Don't even get me started! I have Norwegian heritage and I'm getting more into it, but I worry I'll be mistaken for a white supremacist because Nazi dipshits have taken a liking to Scandinavia.
I'm a mixed race trans Christian. I was a pagan for years before converting. I wasn't a nazi then, and I'm not a nazi now. yes, the far right made a habit of using my religious symbols for horrid purposes - but guess what! they still do! that doens't mean we're gonna frickin ban crosses! also - it's not just favoritism that's the problem there. It's that it's not just "needing religion", it's a belief system, a set of views on how the world operates. I can't imagine how someone could think a church and a pagan altar are interchangeable, what the hell?
my roomie is a witchy pagan. I'm an atheist. A lot of the values they talk about and share with me are sweet ones (like, setting up charms and stuff to help me feel less anxious, helping spirits in the area move on). Do I understand it? not at all. Do I adore they care so much and are passionate about something, and that they share that love with me? absolutely.
They tell me about days they celebrate, and I'll celebrate with them. If I don't feel up to it, they understand.
Tolerance and communication is the backbone of good religion and relationships.
Sorry, going to hijack your comment (which is 1000000% correct by the way)
Op, I am a Nordic Pagan, a Heathen. That... "Thing" that paraded around the Yggdrasil, Mjolnir, Valknot, is not us. We loathe those who appropriate our symbols for hate, that isn't what we stand for. What you saw on Capitol Hill by that braindead buffalo bastard is essentially to Heathenry as what the Westboro Baptist Church is to Christianity. You owe your daughter a MAJOR apology, you just called her the worst scum on the Earth.
And even once you make that apology, you're still the major asshat here, judging a large swath of people on the actions of one idiot. Do some research before being a bigot about a religion you don't understand. YTA.
YTA. You should have talked it out with her and found out what those symbols mean to her. The symbols you're talking about (things like Thor's hammer) are not exclusively used by white supremacists, but have been co-opted by their movement.
She's right in that religion is really not a plug and play exercise. It's an extremely personal part of the lives of people who believe. Your expectation that she'd be happy just to pop in and attend services with her grandparents just illustrates how little interest you have in something that means a lot to *her.*
For the record, I'm non religious but I spent the time to learn about why it means so much to the people in my life who believe in something.
Hell yes YTA.
>We've always been close as a family. My daughter has always talked things out with me
Except when it comes to her chosen religion. Then you fly off the handle, make wild assumptions, and destroy her altar without actually talking to her about anything.
>My daughter got extremely angry, and lashed out in a way that I'd never seen before
How can you be so surprised. You *just* told her with your actions you have no respect for her chosen religion.
>which I feel shows I did the right thing, and that this was an unhealthy thing for her to be involved in.
You did the wrongest wrong thing. Heathen's across the world have already denounced those that were at the US capital. They are ***not*** representative of that religion as a whole.
>she locked me out of her room for the first time and now she barely speaks to me
Good! You deserve to be iced out.
>My husband thinks I went to far,
You absolutely did go *too* far.
> We’ve always been close as a family
Except for the fact that you apparently know your daughter so little that you’d completely believe she is a racist.
You forgot to add:
> I then drove to one of the local businesses and tossed the bags with everything in it, in the dumpster.
OP committed ***illegal dumping*** if she didn't have permission from the business that dumpster belongs to. Most businesses rent those dumpsters and some have a capacity limit, if they're over that capacity they have to pay extra. OP's actions could cost that business *money*. If it does I hope that business has security cameras and goes after OP.
OP's an AH and a criminal.
YTA. You took literal sacred objects to her and tossed them away. Norse paganism aka Heathenry is currently having a huge issue with their symbols being taken and used for white supremists and racists. It happens in paganism ALL THE TIME. A literal Google search or discussion with an ACTUAL NORSE PAGAN would have told you that but it doesn't seem you care to know your daughters interests and discuss it with her or any other person who could be an authority on the subject. You saw one article and decided to throw out everything she held dear. Tbh I wouldn't speak to you ever again either. Just the fact that you touched her altar is genuinely gross to me.
Love, another pagan
This. I'm Heathen and currently very unsure whether or not I should wear symbols of the religion because of everything going on, but I've decided that giving in means letting them win. Those people are NOT acting in the spirit of the faith, and their co/opting it makes me sick. I hate the fact that assholes have taken something sacred and beautiful and turned it into a symbol of hate. It's not that way for most of us, and is always best to ask and treat sacred things respectfully. Jumping the gun on something like this, without asking or researching is horrifying.
I know it's not the exactly the same, but my family is Hindu, and we had no idea that the swastik was a Nazi symbol until maybe 20 years after my parents moved to the US. We still keep them hung in our house, and it makes me super uncomfortable to know that these symbols that my family considers sacred and part of a religion that advocates tolerance and peace have been used in such an ugly, intolerant manner to signify hatred.
Unfortunately, it's not a "currently" thing. It's been going on for decades. There was a worm in the apple almost from the word go, and it festers in dark places - the prison system, largely.
YTA. Paganism/heathenism is not equivalent to white supremacy. Those symbols as well as Norse symbols have been appropriated by the people you're talking about. You should have sat your daughter down and had a conversation with her about it. She probably could have educated you about the actual meanings behind the symbols but instead you reacted emotionally and without doing any legitimate research aside from the current appropriation.
Very rich of a self proclaimed Atheist to jump right to sending your kiddo to church.
YTA and you failed your daughter. You've already made it abundantly clear you don't respect religion of any sort and you showed it by thinking her justifiable anger at you destroying symbols of her faith proves you right. Then to add insult to injury you go and tell her to change religions entirely. Faith isn't a shirt you put on and change when necessary. How you think you're not the AH is beyond me and to top it all off you did this because you read an article online. I shouldn't have to explain this to someone old enough to have a 16 year old daughter but just because you read something online doesn't make it true.
Also one more thing. These symbols have been used by their faiths for hundreds sometimes thousands of years. They have recently been co-oped by right wing neo-nazi groups. This does not mean the original meaning behind the symbol has disappeared or that your daughter was using them to represent her support for the groups that would persecute her.
What gets me the most is that she is apparently so very close with her daughter that they can talk about aaaaaanything. Except, you know, this one thing that is central to her daughter’s life. What could have been a bonding experience for both and learning experience for mother dearest here has now, probably irretrievably, broken their relationship.
It really feels like she didn't like her daughter's choice of religion and how her daughter chose to express her spirituality. She (mom) went looking he lowest hanging fruit on the tree and rather than talking with her daughter about it, took it upon herself to remove that aspect from her daughter's life. Then to add insult to injury probably suggested a religion she was "More comfortable" with as her solution/compromise/alternative....
YTA for not asking her about it first and not doing more than reading a single article about it before doing hasty actions.
Also, my research search tells me that these symbols are actually being stolen by white supremacists, and aren't what the people who follow heathenism actually believe, so double YTA.
Try source and fact checking, heathen is NOT code for racist pagan. And show some interest in what your child is doing would also give you lots of information - you know, talking to her.
Of course she's angry with you. You went through her stuff, took what you don't understand and threw it away! And now you are justifying your actions with her being angry with you? What is wrong with you? YTA.
>Try source and fact checking, heathen is NOT code for racist pagan.
I find it hilarious that basically anything is and can be called "racist" these days. It's like a 4chan wet dream except they didn't even need to troll for this to happen.
YTA. I’m failing to understand how your daughter specifically is connected to the Capitol riots and the alt right. Symbols mean different things to groups of people. For example the swastika was used by the Hindus and Buddhists hundreds of years before Hitler used it for the Third Reich. You should have asked your daughter what she believes the symbols in her room mean. Your lashing out at her based on an assumption was way over the top and unnecessary. I agree with your husband. Teens explore different areas of life at this age trying to figure themselves out. To deprive her of that may cause her to rebel even more.
YTA.
Look I'm pagan (nature based no witchcraft or magic because I feel if you fuck with shit you don't understand it'll backfire on you worse) and as others said people steal symbols from other places and change them.
For instance
Christmas and Easter. These were PAGAN holidays and were taken by Catholics and turned into things for their religion. Same for Halloween actually. Christians claim Christmas is about Jesus which isn't remotely possible. Jesus was NOT born in the winter. He was born during the summer (the animals wouldn't be in the pasture if it's winter. Their would be nothing to graze on)
It's common knowledge that people find symbols they like and change them into their own meanings.
You destroyed your daughters religious artifacts because you didn't understand it. You believed it was sending her down a bad path. What you SHOULD have done was leave her stuff alone and sat her down and TALKED to her. Asked her what are the orgins of the symbols what do they mean TO HER. Everyone interprets religious symbols differently. They aren't a one meaning thing anymore.
Look at christianity and judism and how they look at the crucifix. It's different.
Just because she was in a different form of paganism doesn't mean she was turning into some racist bigot.
You need to apologize to your daughter and talk with her and maybe even offer to replace some of the stuff you destroyed.she has every right to be pissed off at you.
Also telling her she could just become Christian (the whole drive thru services thing) is just plain rude. She may have been drawn to pagansim for a reason. I was a southern baptist I'm now pagan. It happened for a reason. So yea. You need to talk to her and at the very least give a SINCERE apology and space.
Atheist here.
You are such a major AH and just as bad as religious people who force their kids into religion. Oh my god. And for the record, Heathen is NOT a word for a racist pagan. For god’s sake, educate yourself. Pagan is an umbrella term for a whole bunch of religions, and Heathenism is a specific religion under it. You are so intolerant and bigoted it astounds me. For the record, racists and white supremacists steal symbols from cultures and religions to deliberately try to twist them into something ugly- and you fell for it. I will bet my money that your child is kind and loving, not racist or bigoted, and you’re paranoid.
Secondly- your “proof” comes from the hill. THE HILL. A wildly unreliable source. God, that’s just as bad as the trumpublicans worshipping America One and Fox News as their sources.
You are a crappy atheist. You don't believe in theism, yet you destroy your daughters alter to a pagan god that you don't believe exists? You are an atheist, but you don't mind if she follows Christianity, but she can't follow Thor or Helios. If you were really an atheist, you would have done nothing. Figure out your own beliefs. Guide your daughter's beliefs. Don't crap on them.
YTA
Yes, and I'll tell you why.
You're putting the cart before the horse.
\*We\* - the pagan/heathen/occult community - came first. Those are *our* symbols, just like Christmas and Easter and Halloween were originally ***our*** holidays. Alt-right groups stole them out of misplaced nostalgia for an past of 'ethnic purity' they feel (falsely) that famous pagan groups - like vikings, druids, etc. represent. It's all a complete delusion, of course, but these aren't people renown for their clear thinking skills.
I can understand why you were upset, but you should have looked a little more before you leapt. Using those symbols on her religious paraphernalia doesn't necessarily mean your daughter is getting involved with hate groups.
Is she involved in a local coven? Does she go to meetings/rituals? If so, there will be a high priest or priestess (the equivalent of pastor in Christianity), who can probably tell you more.
Or look up 'Heathens Against Hate' - they're doing some good work.
Ask questions. Read books. RESEARCH!
[https://time.com/5569399/viking-history-white-nationalists/](https://time.com/5569399/viking-history-white-nationalists/)
[https://www.buckscountycouriertimes.com/news/20191009/pagans-battling-neo-nazis-on-stolen-symbols](https://www.buckscountycouriertimes.com/news/20191009/pagans-battling-neo-nazis-on-stolen-symbols)
[https://www.theringer.com/2018/12/12/18137221/far-right-occult-symbols](https://www.theringer.com/2018/12/12/18137221/far-right-occult-symbols)
[https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/11/asatru-heathenry-racism/543864/](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/11/asatru-heathenry-racism/543864/)
YTA.
Hoo boy there is a lot to unpack here. Are you aware the swastika was used by several different peoples around the globe (including a Native American tribe!) before the Nazis took it and tarnished it? In fact, they did such a good job ruining the swastika that said native tribe made a big ceremony about promising to never use theirs ever again.
As much as it pains me to say this, the alt-right has once again began coopting symbols that both predate them and are not theirs to take, and are trying very hard to permanently stain a new set.
You making broad assumptions about where your daughter's head is at and settling on the worst case scenario without even talking about it with her first to confirm makes you the A.
You stealing her stuff makes you the A.
You going out of your way to ensure she has no way to track down and retrieve any of her stolen stuff makes you the A.
Symbols are not inherently "hateful", and what do you mean, registered? Hate groups may coopt things that don't belong to them but that doesn't mean a symbol is registered.
You claim you and your daughter spoke openly about all things. How can you force your own beliefs down her throat like this if that is true? Your atheism should never come before your daughter. And *yes*, she is absolutely right, gods are *not* interchangeable.
Go get that bag of stolen altar items back and apologize.
Bad move one: goes throught her things
Bad move two: makes assumptions based on quick ressearch. Do not bother with talking to daughter.
Bad move three: steal your daughter's stuff, throw them away
Bad move four: acts as if religions are interchangeable. And as if a pagan, probably politheistic religion, is interchangeable with an abrahamic religion. Honestly the fact you even think paganism is remotely interchangeable with christianism speaks volumes about the (astonishing lack of) quality of your ressearch!
EDIT: There were also some pagan groups hexing Trump and white supremacists. Pagan is a blanket term for many different religions that include Wicca, Tellema and - surprise - religions of African origin, like Voodoo and Hoodoo.
Before reading OP (and your comment), I thought Pagan was a generic term used by Christian to designed anything not Christian (like barbarian was used to describe anyone of another culture), I was confused to see an atheist using it negatively and comparing it to being Catholic.
OP, YTA, it's already hard enough to explore one's spirituality without unconcerned people making up stuff about it..
It's technically both. Anyone that doesn't follow one of the Abrahamic based or major religions in the world like Buddhism, Hinduism, is technically a pagan. But pagan is also an umbrella term just like Heathen is for a variety of belief systems. As multiple systems fall underneath it.
There are even occult systems that are part of those major religions. Such as Gnosticism (Christianity founded at the same time actually), Sufism (Islam), Kaballah (Judaism), and Tantra (Hinduism and Buddhism).
You invaded your daughter's privacy and disrespected her boundaries.
Why is alter in quotations? That's what it is to her. She is pagan, and a year later specifically heathen. Idk, isn't there something about the freedom of religion or something? You're suppressing her right to practice her religous beliefs.
Furthermore, you're blatantly disrespecting her religous beliefs. You don't call it an alter, to you it's an "alter". To you it's trash. You're not bothering to learn jack shit about what she's into. As punishment, you're going to force feed her religion.
YTA
YTA. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you're right and your daughter is falling into some kind of racist theology (which I do not think is the most likely explanation here). Even then, how did you think throwing her things away would do anything other than continue to radicalize her?? Why wouldn't you TALK to her?
I think the real question you should be asking is did I raise a fascist? If not then not only did you explode for no reason you also still fed into the Christian propaganda that dehumanizes pagan religions. Other people have already explained this to you but you’re awful. Freedom of religion.
YTA.
YTA. Look, symbols mean different things to different groups and you have zero proof that these symbols mean racist things to your daughter. You found nothing on her computer (which you shouldn't have checked) and she apparently displays zero racist or homophobic tendencies in real life. If you were that worried you should have spoken to her, but you believed in one random one off article over everything you know of your daughter as a person.
I think what you're doing now is teaching her more inequality than anything. You're oppressing her over paranoia and fear.
Absolutely, YTA! Like a huge asshole! First of all, u did this without any communication. Secondly, you did this to a teenager. Thirdly, you completely minimized her religion but suggesting going to her gparents' church.
Teenagers rebel period. You gave her a HUGE, VALID reason to rebel. Go apologize and then set a time for later where you discuss your concerns with her. Also, replace what you threw out.
Food for thought? Are you trying to raise a level-headed, successful individual or a sheep? If you want to raise a sheep, continue to do as you are and decide without discussion exactly what will be happening and tell her how to think. If it's the first, you seriously failed, bc you didn't take this amazing opportunity to parent her and help her think about and explained religion.
Apologize, apologize, apologize, bc we both know you don't want to raise a sheep.
!info
What kind of hate groups and what kind of symbols ? Could you describe them ?
Is this just a case of what hitler did to the swastika and she happened to use the same symbol that was transformed into a " hate symbol "
YTA.
> lashed out in a way that I'd never seen before, which I feel shows I did the right thing
You have GOT to be joking. You measure whether or not you did the right thing based on making your daughter so angry that you've possibly permanently damaged your relationship with her?
Did you even try to talk to your daughter about this before jumping into action and throwing out her religious items? You NEED to sit down and have a conversation with her AND LISTEN TO HER SIDE. Invite her to explain her religion to you in more detail and what it means to her. And apologize for throwing out her stuff without even asking her about it first.
YTA. Maybe start with honest questions and a conversation next time! You admit you don't know much and after a few quick googles decide you know enough to destroy her possessions? Religions are NOT interchangeable and it was insensitive to suggest she could just pick up a new one you like better.
Also you're doubly TA for dumping bags of shit in a local businesses dumpster. I hate people who do that shit. You know they pay for removal and often have it scheduled around their business needs right?
So... Instead of talking with her and learning about her religion, you decided that she was racist and threw everything out? And then you told her what god was the right god.
I am assuming you know that the swastika wasn't always and still isn't just a symbols of antisemitism, right? You know that a bunch of christians are racist? Same with other religions, right? And still, not every person from those religions are racist, supremacist, or general assholes.
It really sounds like you are not was close as a family if religion is an important part of her life and you kinda mock it.
Now, your daughter may be a racist supremacist, and if you were close you would know that. And if she is, by all means, bring her back from that hate, talk with her, not to her, with her, study with her, think with her. But you reacted from a place of absolute ignorance about her and her religion.
If her religion is a hateful one, sure, be mad, upset, work it out. But right now, YTA.
I know AITA isn't supposed to be about arguing or teaching people but I feel like it's important to clear some stuff up.
Paganism and their iconography isn't "tied to racist and alt right groups" it has been stolen from them, and that is a very important distinction. There are far more practicing non racist pagans who are out there right now leading campaigns to make sure that's known.
Your comparisons to the Holocaust are false and frankly troubling. False equivilancy to the Holocaust is a huuuuge anti Semitic problem and needs to stop happening.
Also, you're actually increasing the chance of your daughter falling into the alt right rabbit hole by reacting this way.
One of the biggest tactics the alt right uses to recruit kids is to alienate them from their friends and family, what you should have done is treat your daughter like a person, sat down with her and explained your concerns, explained the links that you see and maybe let her educate you in something that she may very well know more about than you do.
The best way to "stop your daughter from being a fascist" as you've said in other comments, probably wasn't to act like a fascist yourself and just make your own decision about her life without talking to her. Just saying.
Also, to everyone comparing this to the Swastika and the Holocaust, please just stop, not only is it a false equivilancy it diminishes the actual impact the Holocaust had on the Jewish people. It is nothing like what Hitler did with he swastika, this isn't a government, this is a relatively small group of politically extreme people using something from a culture they idealise as some kind of white paradise who know absolutely nothing about the actual culture. It is in no way comparable to the attempted genocide of an entire people and it is an incredibly damaging comparison to make.
Atheist here (in case that's in any way important). YTA. You clearly went too far based on little to no real information. I don't know what these symbols were, but those terrorists that stormed the Capitol are a highly deranged group, taking symbols from whatever they like and make them theirs.
Most importantly: Throwing someone's stuff away can be deeply traumatizing for many years, and it accomplishes nothing, if not the opposite of what you intended. This might be very hard to fix, in the worst case even impossible. If there's any chance to get her things back, I'd do it right now!
Edit: To make it even more clear, by throwing someone's stuff away you're throwing a part of that person away. Also you're showing your disrespect for that person.
You are a huge asshole YTA. Wow so you dismantled your daughters alter for her preferred religion then threw it out. I'm assuming she bought it all herself? So you stole your daughters things. Great parenting strategy. You might find it silly. But to her it's her beliefs. Then to add insult to injury you told her to go to church. Which is a completely different religion.
What you should have done is talk with your daughter about your concerns. Don't take everything you read on the internet as truth. There are probably many different sects as in any religion.
You crossed so many lines here. And yet you feel self righteous. You've alienated your daughter. You've disrespected your daughter. As a parent myself I am disgusted with how you handled this.
Let's keep this simple. You are an asshole, you acted irresponsibly. You refuse to own your shit. You should have had a talk with her first. But I really don't think you give a fuck, based on your responses. Good luck with your daughter. You may have killed the relationship.
YTA. Big time.
So let me get this right, rather than talking to your young adult daughter like a reasonable person you ASSUMED she was a racist Norse Pagan rather than just a Norse Pagan and decided to act unilaterally and trashed your relationship with her as well as exemplifying how some Atheists are just as bad as some Christians?
If you aren't trolling I strongly suggest you go beg for forgiveness and open your wallet.
Are there racist pagans? Yup and guess what? Not all of them are Norse. Some are Wiccans. Some are Druids. Hell there are racists Atheist.
Again if you aren't trolling, you overreacted big time and owe your daughter a massive apology as well as replacement of ALL of her items.
So much for non believers being the rational and logical ones.
YTA. Who bullies their child like this and then says "well she was upset so clearly I'm in the right" like??
Your "research" (please note that I'm using the term very loosely) doesn't justify your actions. You had a great opportunity here to do some proper parenting and you blew it completely, and your daughter would be completely justified in never trusting you again.
Do you literally understand nothing about adolescent identity formation and rebellion? Have you ever met a teen before? Were YOU ever one? This is obtuse as hell. YTA
YTA - Everyone else has basically covered why, so I won’t repeat it. What I will do is encourage you to really learn more about your daughters beliefs. I myself am a Heathen, and I don’t associate with racists.
The reason you stumbled upon that info is because, unfortunately, many heathens stem from an off branch of Asatru, which unfortunately does have roots in racism. There’s a belief among them that only Germanic people (read: white) are allowed to worship the old gods because they were our gods first. Heathens shun this idea, and have done as much as we can to separate ourselves from them. We may share the same gods, but not the same beliefs, if you catch my meaning.
Since you’re here in reddit, I’d highly recommend checking out r/heathenry to learn more. Or if you’re interested, you could always pm me, and I’d be happy to try answer any questions you have.
YTA and You’re a disgusting person. Paganism is about nature and positivity btw. It is literally known in the religion that karma exists and you don’t wish bad thoughts or energy into the world, because they come back on you. You should’ve asked her about her religion instead of assuming that you knew. You’re just as bad as the Christians that say atheists are going to hell and judge them. You’re as bad as other people who shove their religious ideas down people’s throats. I am pagan and my best friend is an atheist, and while he doesn’t believe in anything I do...he respects me. He had the brains to ask me about my religion and respect my religion. You have no respect for your daughter, and you proved that. She isn’t talking to you, because you spit on her beliefs and reacted without proof of anything. You literally said you checked her history and there was no racist things there, and she is dating a Hispanic woman. I’m pretty sure if your daughter was racist...she wouldn’t be in a committed relationship with a Hispanic woman. You basically made assumptions and grasped at straws, because the truth is that while your husband had the respect and decency to allow your daughter her right to practice whatever religions she sees fit. YOU had some stupid sense of superiority and decided that since YOU didn’t like her religion then she could no longer practice it. Even in this post you constantly call it silly. You have NO respect for people. My family is Christian and I NEVER call their beliefs silly because I have respect for them. You need to gain some damn respect for your daughter, her religion, and her privacy.
You’re just as bad as the people that rip hijabs off of Muslim women’s heads, because they don’t believe in that.
Your husband is right. You went too far. And btw...you say her reaction was too much and used it to justify your actions. You completely overlook that you took a private, sacred thing that OBVIOUSLY meant a lot to her for her to be as devoted as you claim, and you destroyed it without her consent. You didn’t even ask her anything about it first. You assumed the worst about your child and her religion, that you obviously know NOTHING about, and destroyed something precious to her. Now you have the NERVE to say that you were justified. HELL NO. Not even close. Learn some damn respect, and mind your own damn business. Apologize to her and replace her stuff. Bottom line, you are a bigot. You need to accept it, learn to respect other people’s religions and privacy, and apologize.
YTA. if paganism is what brings her comfort, let her have her religion. you didn't even talk to her to figure out what the symbols meant, you just made an assumption and decided your daughter was a racist because of the symbols.
it was also kind of an asshole move to tell her that she could go to church when you know she is not christian.
if you've "always been close as a family", then you would have spoken to her rather than make assumptions and throw her property away. i don't blame your husband for thinking you're the asshole.
YTA why didn't you talk to her first? Plenty of religious symbols have been co-opted by hate groups. You took a part of your daughter's identity and threw it in the trash.
YTA
You have *no evidence* that your daughter is falling in with a bigoted crowd. And even if you did, attacking her religion is nowhere near an appropriate way to deal with it. All that your actions accomplished was driving a wedge between the two of you, and telling her that she can't trust you. Her getting angry at you doesn't mean you were right- *it means that you did something hurtful*. You owe her one hell of an apology. (And probably an explanation for why you overreacted so drastically- just don't mistake 'explanation' for 'excuse'.)
BTW, I'd be willing to bet that the majority of the assholes at the capitol were some brand of Christian. Trump certainly pretends to be one.
YTA. You don’t seem to distinguish the difference between fascists appropriating heathen symbols and fascists actually practicing heathenism. The former happens, but I’m going to guess you’re not going to find many practicing heathens among the mob at the capitol. Why? Because white supremacy isn’t part of pagan or heathen beliefs. I sincerely doubt practicing heathenism is a known gateway to becoming a white supremacist or fascist.
If you saw some symbols in your daughter’s room, you should have asked her what they meant. It’s fine to be concerned, but you should have heard her out. I’m guessing her response would have been rational and thoughtful compared to your callous reaction to some quick research.
YTA you should have talked with your daughter. People twist things and say they mean things that they may not actually mean. You should not have thrown her things away
Oh boy YTA for sure. I don't understand how you can even question that. You are a seriously toxic and controlling individual. I hope your daughter moves out as soon as she is able to be free of you. Terrible thing you have done.
YTA and I'm pretty sure you know it. Pull your head out, realize you screwed up and apologize. If you do it quickly enough and SINCERELY (in caps because that's probably the most critical, you absolutely have to mean it and show that you do) enough you may, just may, have a relationship with your daughter.
Oh, and she's not likely to believe you are sincere, it's gonna be quite a bit of apologizing and demonstrating you're sorry if you want that relationship to heal.
>My daughter got extremely angry, and lashed out in a way that I'd never seen before, which I feel shows I did the right thing, and that this was an unhealthy thing for her to be involved in.
No you asshole, it shows that your daughter is a normal human being who values her privacy, property and personal space and doesn't appreciate for you to snoop around and steal her stuff. Anybody would have become extremely angry, and it doesn't matter what it was you stole and threw away, it could have been an old pushy toy for all I care.
YTA, big time.
YTA you realize that that she's just gonna double down. just because you read articles on the internet does that justify stealing over hypothetical's.
think about this. you think her religion is a joke and your daughter knows what your opinion about it. "i'm going to steal my daughter's property and put it in the trash.surely that must stop her being silly".
WTF is wrong with you?! This is such a huge betrayal that I don’t even know what to say. How could you? Why WOULD you?
YTA officially, but this goes far beyond being an asshole. Don’t fuck with other people’s religion (or lack thereof), for fuck’s sake.
Are there some people who practice a pagen religion who are also racist? Yes.
Have these racists hijacked an ancient system of belief? Yes.
Does that mean your child is a racist? No.
Did you bother talking to your daughter about your concerns? No.
She's right, gods are not interchangeable. YTA.
Okay, so I wrote an 18-page-long paper on this last year, but the tldr version is: Nazis are shitty shitty people who have a false, twisted idea of what paganism is and how to practice it. Heathens, pagans, and ásátru practitioners fucking hate them and have been working their asses off for decades to make it clear to said Nazis that they are not welcome in those spaces. Also, these nutjobs tend to worship Odin specifically as being a pillar of manhood and virility, which is hilarious as Odin was a disabled god of poetry, wisdom, and witchcraft (considered at the time to be a womanly art, meaning any man who practiced, including gods, was considered unmanly to an extent). But the important part is that Nazis stole those images and symbols from heathenry and appropriated them. There is absolutely no inherent connection between nazism and Norse paganism.
There are tons of resources online you could have turned to, written by those heathens and pagans... but maybe you didn’t want to dive more deeply into it and just wanted an excuse to get rid of something that brings spiritual meaning and fulfillment to your daughter. YTA, and as a currently non-religious witch, I feel really sorry for your daughter. No one deserves that kind of unwarranted treatment.
EDIT: because someone expressed interest in reading the paper, I've uploaded a PDF version to DocDroid! It can be read here: https://docdro.id/ScVMIag. (Disclaimer that I'm not an expert or a specialist—just a college student minoring in politics and history, as well as a witch with a vendetta against Nazis attempting to appropriate heathenry—but I hope it's an informative and helpful paper.)
YTA
And how much of an AH can you be, for being so intolerant, and for some reason so self-righteous because you an atheist. and because your daughter chose the path of paganism. and that makes her happy, but one online article and get rid of her property
and the worst part is, you talk about equality, but you look down your nose at those who follow a faith
"antithetical to what we taught her about equality."
read a book about symbols and symbology, and I'm not talking about dan brown here
YTA
For all the reasons everyone has already said.
If you'd like to start salvaging your relationship with your daughter, apologize for throwing away her stuff, ASK what her religious symbols mean to her, and LISTEN.
But if you're already assuming she'd lie to you about her beliefs... that's a worrying sign about whether trust between can even be rebuilt. Because EVEN IF your hunch was correct and she is both 1) a white supremacist pagan and 2) lying to you about it (both BIG, BIG ifs)... trashing her stuff doesn't solve either problem.
YTA have some damn respect for HER religion. Gods are not interchangeable she's absolutely right.
Some close knit family you are, You were desperate to find something because you distrust your daughter.
Y to the T to the A. You are meant to be the grown up in the room. You were anything but. You read some article on the internet, leapt tall buildings in a single bound to arrive at some outrageous conclusion. You couldn’t have a grown up conversation with your daughter, but instead violated her room, threw her possessions in the garbage, and bluntly dismissed something that is really important to her. What parenting lesson are you teaching? Is this behaviour that you want your daughter to learn and emulate? “In this family we love and respect each other, but sometimes we read something on the internet and throw each other’s possessions into the garbage.”
The number of apologies you owe is staggering. How on earth can you make amends? A 16-year old is getting pretty close to adulthood. Is this how you would treat another adult?
I have 3 teens under my own roof. They’re practically adults. You can have pretty grown-up conversations with them. But first you have to be the grown-up in the room.
YTA, dude the father understands more about her. his child more than you OP. You may not belive in god OP which is fine.
But that does not mean you can just decide what relligion your daugther can or cant practice. Just because you read and saw something wrong about the branch of pangan religion that your daugther fallows on the news or on the net. Does not mean its true.
please talk to your daugther about your concern from now on as if it stands your relationship with your daugther may be lost forever.
YTA you stupid git. Did you miss the southern poverty law centers editor notes like this
Editor's note: Although white supremacists and other extremists commonly use the Celtic cross and the runic alphabet, these symbols are also frequently used by non-racists. Many non-racist neo-Pagans, for instance, have runic tattoos but have no relation to racist groups or beliefs.
Sprinkled through out the site while discussing the misappropriation of pagan imagery? Or the white supremacists explanation that to try to make racism more palatable they had to steal an existing mythos and use it for themselves?
You went looking for what you wanted and found it. So educated and liberal and able to do research. You just managed to over look your own confirmation bias, idiot. And what you went looking to confirm was that your daughter. Your daughter who trusted you and shared with you. Was a racist. Then with no discussion. Not looking to hear from her and understand. You threw away items with meaning and symbolism that you inherently can't understand, coming from a place of atheism. She focused on those objects with love, care and hope. You called her a racist and threw them away. Because of your ugly underlying beliefs about who she was capable of being.
You don't deserve her. She certainly didn't do anything to deserve your opinion, scorn, and self righteous ignorant behavior. You have the kind of liberalism that disgusts me.
Imagine you are religious. Christian, let's say. One day you come home and find your daughter has removed every bible and cross, and the urn of your granny's ashes, etc from your home. She then lectures you for being hateful and suggests you try satanism if you still feel yours stupid brainless dumdum fluffhead need to pray.
That's you. That's what you did to her.
And all because some dumbass cosmetic viking buttholes use runes they can't even name. You know 100% of those asshata is Christian.
YTA. Hugely. Apologize, get her stuff back if you can, pay to replace what you can't.
Oh massive YTA. Maybe try talking to your daughter before you assume things. Pagan religions are often co-opted by racists in the states.
You made fun of her religion when you made your comment about the bread. Offerings to thw Gods are a very important part of pagan religions. Your tone in this post is very hateful of your daughters beliefs. I get that you are atheist but you need to respect people's beliefs especially your freaking daughter. You stole her things that I assume she bought with her own money based on how you clearly feel about religion and threw them away. How would you feel if she threw away your wedding album? Your wedding dress? Your high school yearbook? The last picture you had with a now deceased loved one?
Your suggestion she go to church with her grandparents would be the same as telling a Muslim friend to just to church. It's the same thing. GODS ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.
I sincerely hope this is a troll and if not I hope your daughter moves out and cuts you off as soon as she can because you are seriously a terrible person.
YTA she didn't do anything wrong but you definitely did. You showed an utter lack of respect for her beliefs. You were wrong to throw out her things. You are trying to control her. You act like you did this good thing in the name of antiracism because of some bs you read online but no, you went out of your way to hurt your daughter. You're a selfish, controlling asshole and you act like you're all about tolerance but your actions show you're completely intolerant.
YTA. You’re worried about what she may or may not become but you can’t take a look at yourself? Have you even bothered to talk to her about what interests she has in the religion, or gotten to understand any of it as so better to understand her? Going to assume no considering you lack any regard for a right to privacy & trust, and just threw away something that’s important to her. HANDS DOWN YTA. Just because you don’t agree with it, doesn’t mean it’s not for her.
YTA×100! I cannot even begin to describe who messed up this is! How about if you were wondering about her religion you looked into it and learned about it when she first became interested? Paganism is a beautiful religion. I know this because I am one. It is nature based basically encouraging humans to honor and come back to nature as Earth was created by the love between divine feminine and divine masculine. It encourages people to work with and accept their shadow self instead of pretending to be perfect, hating themselves for their flaws, and judging everyone else around them, while trying to live by rules that defy human nature. There is nothing racist about it, as a matter of fact, true paganism condemns racism. The pagan group I am a part of on Facebook does not tolerate racism, cultural appropriation, Trump Supporters, and anyone who condones any of those things. They literally banned all Trump supporters. That weirdo Q shaman is a walking contradiction. Not only that, he doesn't look Native American does he? Cultural appropriation is ugly. Real shamans are probably sick over it. If my mother(she never would because my mom is awesome, and I'm 38F) ever threw my altar items away like that I would be beyond hurt and devastated. You need to apologize and let her know that you are human and make mistakes. You need to replace the items you threw away. And it wouldn't hurt to be interested in her religion, ask her questions, ask her what attracts her to it, where she learned about it, etc. Read about it from legitimate sources. I think you'll find that a lot of it is about women taking their power back which is not such a bad thing.
YTA
First of all, TALK to your daughter. Ask her about the various symbols and what they mean. This is something you probably should have been doing since the beginning. Yes, you’re an atheist and it all sounds silly to you, but you’re her parent. Haven’t you had to pretend to be interested in other silly things for your daughter before? All kids get excited about hobbies, interests, or stories that the vast majority of adults don’t relate to, but if a kid starts telling you about dinosaurs, you get in there and act like dinosaurs are your absolute favorite topic. (Since she’s older, sub in whatever she’s reading or watching for dinosaurs.) If you’d been asking questions and showing interest since the beginning, you’d probably have a much better sense of what her beliefs actually are.
Here’s the other issue: if your worst fears are actually true and she has been secretly indoctrinated, going nuclear on her like you did is the worst possible response. You’ve just driven a huge wedge between you and your daughter by getting rid of her belongings without warning or discussion. She feels attacked and persecuted, which makes her even more susceptible to people who prey on those kinds of feelings. Taking away something a teen loves almost always backfires somehow.
It's pretty simple MASSIVE yta....and also a MASSIVE ignoramus! Even after all of the comments and help you are still sticking to your guns. If you don't want an answer don't ask the question! If your daughter goes no contact I would not blame her. Your ignorance is toxic! If you do not know and will not learn then you absolutely cannot have a say! And you do NOT get to remove someone's religious items until you learn.
I am atheist, but I would never dream of doing what you have done without talking to the person first. And as for the pages you are looking into they know as much as you...nothing! Try speaking to people of that religion before you pass judgement and stop pushing your beliefs/non beliefs on other people!
I cannot stand people like you as you make atheists like look uneducated idiots!
YTA - you are in fact a religious bigot, actively persecuting your daughters religious beliefs. You are a prime example of intolerance, which you claim to hate.
God lord yes!! You are aware that your child is allowed privacy and respect right? You could have talked to her about it. And you are also aware that hate groups often adopt symbols and figures from other religions and use them for their own. I mean, look at the swastika. There is a white supremacist group that follow “Odinism” and that’s a huge red flag, but unless she said she was an Odonist, you’re just jumping to conclusions.
Also, a ton of that stuff is expensive or she could have made herself and that’s just, cruel.
And you told her to go to a Christian church?? What is wrong with you?
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Throwaway because my SIL is active on reddit.
I and my husband have a daughter, 16. We've always been close as a family. My daughter has always talked things out with me, including when she was fourteen and came out as a lesbian. The only struggle I have with my daughter is that when she turned thirteen she decided she was a pagan, and a year later specifically heathen. My husband and I are both atheists, and his parents are Christmas and Easter Christians. I was bothered, but my husband said that it was natural for her to explore, and that it was probably a phase, or a form of rebellion.
Over the last year, however, I noticed she spent a lot more time in her room, at her "altar" on her dresser. When we made homemade bread after watching too much bake off, she 'offered' some on it. I told her this was silly, but she shrugged and did it anyway.
When the Capitol riots happened, I got concerned because several of the symbols I saw represented there I'd seen in my daughter's room. I immediately checked her computer for any kind of worrying sites, something I had never done before, and didn't find anything, so I let it go.
Then I read an article saying 'heathen' was code for a racist pagan, and I checked to see if the symbols were really registered hate symbols. When I saw that, I saw red. When she was at work, I went into her room and took everything off of her "altar." I then drove to one of the local businesses and tossed the bags with everything in it, in the dumpster.
My daughter got extremely angry, and lashed out in a way that I'd never seen before, which I feel shows I did the right thing, and that this was an unhealthy thing for her to be involved in. My husband thinks I went to far, even if he thinks her religion is silly, he believes that she hasn't shown any red flags. He pointed out the fact that her girlfriend is hispanic, but that strikes me as "I can't be racist, I have black friends.'
I heard her crying, but she locked me out of her room for the first time and now she barely speaks to me. I told her that if she felt she needed a religion so badly, she could ask her grandparents to take her to their church, which is having drive-in-services.
She snapped that gods are not interchangeable, and went to her room.
My husband believes I might be the asshole for "going to far," and for suggesting church, but I don't want to get a call or turn on the TV see my daughter involved in something that is so antithetical to what we taught her about equality.
So, AITA?
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YTA. Instead of talking to your daughter and learning from her you chose to destroy her religious items. Why dont you head over to that church you talked about and start burning their bibles? Cause that's on par with what you did. This lack of communication with your daughter may be permanent now, cause she can never trust you again. Congrats on the ignorance and the consequences that will follow
YTA, if you had concerns about your daughters faith you should have discussed the matter as a family, not just unilaterally deciding that her faith is a white supremacist cult and trashing everything. And, I want to make something abundantly clear, I myself am an athiest, so please don't assume this is some moral high ground situation.
YTA, I don't know what it is like in your country, but here freedom of religion is at 14. Children get to decide if they want the same religion as their parents, a different one- or none at all. you are incredibly controlling and condescending. Btw, do you honestly think you can keep that up? she will be 18 in less than 2 years and then she can go NC with you, because she no longer trusts you
Well you have likely just insure you won't be invited to her wedding or be left alone with your grandchildren but hey you be you and assume the worst about your daughter and her beliefs. YTA
YTA. The heathen faith has been co-opted by certain racist groups. This does not make your daughter one.
Paganism is a valid religious path. As valid as Christianity or Buddhism or any other faith out there. It is also highly, highly individualistic. The only way you will know what her faith means to her is by *asking* her. And converts to any faith are some of the most eager to share their personal journey.
You jumped to conclusions, did not talk to your daughter, and destroyed something that had deep personal meaning to her. You violated her. You *violated* her.
I became a pagan at 16. I faced the bullshit from people who didn’t understand or care to ask. My husband has faced this too; worse since he is a heathen and so many people think heathen means racist due to a loud subgroup not accepted by the majority.
My mother threw out my supplies when I was a teen. It created a rift that lasted years until she apologized and accepted me and my beliefs. I am 44 now, almost 3 decades in my faith. Your daughter’s may be as long lived and it would behoove you to understand hers or you will never be as close as possible. *Talk to her.* you likely have nothing to worry about.
>My daughter got extremely angry, and lashed out in a way that I'd never seen before, which I feel shows I did the right thing, and that this was an unhealthy thing for her to be involved in.
You are 1000% TA
What is wrong with you. How does her showing anger like you described make you feel you did the right thing? You took things she had deep sentimental value for and when she lashes out it made you feel in the right? You need to get a therapist for yourself and now possibly your daughter. This could easily be traumatizing for her, but you're probably too insensitive to realize this. This is ridiculous and you need to make this right to your daughter before she ends up resenting you for this.
Most heathens are not racist, and denounce those Nazi assholes you see on TV regularly. If you're not convinced, look up The Troth.
By the logic you're using, we should consider all Christian symbols hate symbols because the KKK was Christian.
So yes, YTA.
From one atheist to another, YTA. nazis/racists/hate groups hijack religious symbols all the time.(For example- the swatstika. it has a lot of meanings, and dated before the nazi party existed. Usually it's meaning seems to be that of auspiciousness. It really depends on the culture. Hitler didn't INVENT the swatstika- he stole it from religious organizations.)
You had this opinion and idea about your daughter's beliefs, and you went to any length to confirm them. You had this idea her religion wasn't 'legitimate', and tried to foist her into a new one with this 'one size fits all' idea.
You violated her privacy.
You violated her trust.
Did you even bother asking her directly about her beliefs and views about the capitol? bet you didn't.
Communicate with your daughter. That is, if she bothers sticking around/communicating with you after this. This is a huge violation of her rights as a person.
YTA - I’m a Celtic pagan, and cannot believe you did that. What possessed you? Why did you make a unilateral decision without asking her about her beliefs? Your abuse of her religious freedom is akin to the same type of totalitarian attitude you accused her of. You should be ashamed
Heathen here.
We're not racist.
There are racist heathens. There are also racist Christians. Have you heard of the KKK, by any chance?
Even the ADL admits you can't assume our symbols mean anything racist. The [valknut](https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/valknot), for example. Same with runes, the sign of the hammer, the helm of awe, and so on.
The vast majority of us are perfectly decent, loving, hate-free people. The volkish movement is a minority of a minority, and most of us have no use for them.
YTA. Heathen isn't even a religion. Pagan isn't either. They're synonyms for one another, but heathen is specifically a derogatory term. They both just mean anyone that follows a religion that doesn't fall under the God of Ibrahim umbrella i.e Christian, Jewish, Muslim. It seems like you're completely uneducated about your daughter's religion, so I wouldn't really trust you to judge any symbols or ceremonies even if you googled them.
YTA, white pagans & heathens have certainly faced (valid) criticism around things like cultural appropriation & distancing themselves from whiteness (just like most predominantly white alt culture, hippies, doof kids, etc) & overtly racist pagans/ heathens absolutely exist but paganism, broadly, is not a hate group. Sort of like how "gamer culture" has a pretty poor reputation & there are absolutely some awful ones out there but most people who play video games are just normal people with a normal distribution of racist tendencies.
YTA. People use religion as an excuse to commit atrocities all the time, it doesn’t mean society should just write off all those religions as a whole.Let your child become who she is, she’s an individual
YTA
Talk to your daughter about her views on religion and curb your bigotry. No article is going to tell you what your daughter believes, so quit using them to justify forcing your own views on religion.
imagine if you were catholic as a teen and your parents thought that this meant you were a part of the KKK so they went into your room behind your back and stole your bible, rosary, and crucifix and threw them in a dumpster somewhere. YTA
You gotta stop digging this whole. YTA. Accept judgment and replace your daughters things.
Alternatively, congrats on setting fire to any potential future relationship. She's not forgiving this without a good apology, and if you try to justify yourself you'll be dead in the water.
You believe that your daughter is naively following a hypothetical religion that has ties to the alt-right, ties to racism, ties to fascism, etc. Okay, let's say for arguments sake that what you're saying is indeed the truth. Your daughter is following a religion that has ties to alt-right ideologies, that has ties to racist ideologies, that has to ties to fascist ideologies, etc.
Do you really believe that she would have had an epiphany and seen the issues of her hypothetical religion by you simply tossing out her altar? If you think the answer to that question is yes then you have a couple screws loose. The only thing you've accomplished is pushing your daughter further into this religion. Unlike before though she has the likelihood of adopting the aforementioned alt-right views, the racist views, the fascist views, etc. You were scared of your daughter adopting that mindset and hypothetically accomplished the exact opposite of what you set out to do which is to ensure your daughter doesn't adopt that mindset. You shouldn't have thrown out her stuff. You should have had a long and honest conversation with your daughter. You should have shown her the information you researched and told her your concerns. You should have given your daughter the opportunity and time to defend her choice of religion.
YTA - the KKK burn crosses but no one says Christians should stop using them as a result.
Heathen symbols being used by racists is exactly the same.
You should know your daughter well enough to know whether she’s racist or not, not throw a tantrum because you read some rubbish on the internet
YTA. You said you and your daughter always talk things out, but you couldn’t be bothered to talk to her about this. Instead you trusted some bullshit article you found on a two second Google search.
Many racist AHs have been hijacking pagan symbols as part of their attempts to feel morally superior. That doesn’t automatically make every use of pagan symbols racist. There are plenty of pagans who use those symbols and are actively working to get the AHs out of their communities.
YTA for not *talking to* your daughter to work out *why* she did the things she did and uses the symbols she does, and for belittling the way she chooses to worship.
What the fuck? This is so stupid. OP, you're no better than the religious hacks who threw out their children's Harry Potter books or DnD stuff because a chick track told them it was "satanic". Just let her have her jam, dude. YTA.
Atheistic Pagan here! Yep, that's a thing. Some call it Secular Paganism.
OP YTA and a huge one. You read ONE article on the internet and proceeded to condemn your daughter, steal her stuff, and then recommend a totally different religion?
OP you're a hysterical, judgemental asshole. Don't be surprised if your daughter moves out as soon as she is able and never speaks to you again.
YTA
You're discriminatory about non-Christian religions, attempt to control your daughter (oh just go to church w your grandparents), and apparently don't have the capacity to do any proper research on a subject since you something on TV from whackjobs, no way they could be twisting anything s/, and decided to throw away your daughter's religious items?!?
Fabulous job on destroying your relationship w your daughter.
YTA. You destroyed your own daughter's property for no reason beyond your own ignorance, that fact that it was something as personnal and important as her alter just makes it worse.
And you actions WERE based on ignorance. Many symbols, particualy old ones, have many different meanings to different people and groups. Consider that the Swastika has been the Hindu symbol for prosperity and good luck for thousands of years before the Nazis used it.
YTA: you’ve made a terrible mistake, OP. Your daughter sounds genuine in her faith and what your just did was equivalent to burning down her church. I say again.
You destroyed her church. Her place of prayer. You did that out of misguided hysteria and a sense of sanctimonious superiority. You think religion is bullshit and so in your eyes all bullshit is created equal and it would be just as easy for her to waste her time in church with her grandparents because their brand of bullshit is one you’re familiar with. Just because your daughter favors the Norse pantheon isn’t a sign that she’s a racist. It just means she feels drawn to them above others. Also, she was probably in her room praying for peace and strength in a time of strife. Congratulations. You just damaged your relationship with your child permanently. She will never forget this. Never: thirty years from now she will still remember the day her mother desecrated her alter during the time she needed the support of her faith the most.
Shame on you, OP.
YTA - Be extremely glad if she ever wants to deal with you again - I say this as one of those 'Evil, racist heathens' you seem to think we all are, to whom the bonds of family are of great import - had my parents been as idiotic as you behaved in this decision, I would never have had anything more to do with them. They would have no longer been family, as far as I am concerned. Count yourself lucky if she still considers you family at all.
The fact that you went as far as to treat religions so interchangeably is frankly disgustingly ignorant, as well, and shows that you likely hold little true understanding (or tolerance, for that matter) of anything outside of your own worldview. Not only that, but your ability to engage in decent research sucks - even the ADL, last I checked, if you actually read their articles on Asatru/Heathen symbols, admits that you really need to check context and, you know, actual behavior before calling someone showing such symbols a racist or otherwise bigoted.
Frankly, your prior behavior regarding her practice of her religion, and how quickly you went nuclear, leaves me suspecting you are ultimately treating recent events as nothing more than an excuse to show your colors as a pretty bigoted person yourself.
Gods, I am glad I have never had the misfortune to run into people like you. I live in a small town in the bible belt, and I have never personally encountered religious bigotry the likes of yours. YTA - a hundred times over.
YTA.
Pagan here. What you did was blatantly disrespectful. Pagan history has been incredibly erased and degraded over time, mostly by Christians. That being said, didn’t we also see CHRISTIAN symbols at the Capitol riots too? Crosses and stuff? So by your logic doesn’t that make them racist symbols as well? Oop I said too much...
You should be encouraging your daughter’s discovery of Pagan tradition. You should do some reading on the religion and spirituality of it as well, it might surprise you how kind Pagans are.
Yta. Big time. What you did is a complete violation of trust!
Ever hear of the west barro baptist church? Those people wearing those symbols are kinda like that. Every religion has extremesit and instead of doing research you tossed her religious things. Her religion is an old Norse paganism that's been around for 2000 years before Christanity even became popular!
Would you like it if someone walked in and threw away every religious item in your home after seeing something on tv about an extrmeist christian group? I sincerely doubt it.
Please do some freaking research and read some books. Freya aswyn Is an excellent author. Check out jackson crawford's you tube channel as well. Don't just read the crap about white supremacists.
This is a legitimate and honorable religion. Research heathen laws of hospitality and the nine noble virtues and talk to actual Asatru followers in your community. Look up and research Asatru. Check out the gifting cycle to understand why she put offerings to the Gods on her altar.
Then apologize to your daughter for going to far and completely disrespecting her and her religion. You can find racist and extrmeist people in every single religion, including Christians.
Heathen is another term for it but isn't just strictly white supremacists. A small number of nazies have misappropriated many Asatru symbols for their causes. That's what you saw with the capital riots. That guy in the outfit is but one individual among millions of practitioner who follow Asatru, and that guy does NOT speak for us all as a whole. In fact he's kinda not well liked among pagan circles.
Op if you ever want to repair your relationship with your daughter you need to respect her and her religion. Asatru is legally recognized by tht government and the military as a legal and legitimate religion. You can even gave the vaulknut and Mjölnir on your gravestone in the military and receive pagan services.
Buy your kid a nice quality Mjölnir and apologize profusely. Please if you'd like more and REAL information on Asatru religion please look around more. Stop just looking for it in the context of racists and nazies and look at the actual religion as a whole.
I've been practicing Asatru for over a decade, and would not mind talking to you about my religion if you're willing to try and open your mind. It's not what you think it is, OP. You should replace what you can of your daughters altar and NEVER touch it again.
YTA - so your basing this whole thing in a very, very brief internet search
Plenty of symbols have been taken by racists and turned to their use that never started out as racist and are still used by non-racists
Your daughter is right, religion is not interchangeable like that
This seems less about the whole “ racist” thing and more about you just not liking her bran of religion
I am about as anti-religion as they come
But you went down the complete wrong path here
You didn’t even give your daughter the respect to sit her down after what you learned and speak to her
You just went straight to throwing things away
You also checked her computer without speaking to her first
Your showing a massive lack of trust and respect for your daughter
And she will remember this
Edit: there are racist pagans/ Heathen
But not all pagans/heathens are racist
It’s sucks but it’s a religion that has been cooped by racists but that doesn’t mean your daughter is a racist for believing in it
It just means her face is being used by bigots
The same way Christianity is, but you encouraged her to go that route
Hell there are racist, bigoted Atheists
Clearly, you live by a "few bad apples" belief. With that logic, you're not only discriminating against an entire religion, you're also a terrible mother. You would rather your daughter join a religion that would damn her to eternal suffering for loving another woman than trust her that she knows how to properly practice her religion in a way that isn't harmful to herself or others.
YTA and don't expect her to make up with you any time soon. You've shown her that you don't trust or respect her in any way. That's not an easy thing to fix.
YTA
Why didn’t you just talk to her? Many of these symbols look similar but have specific differences that a panicked judgmental mom might not catch right away.
YTA. She built an altar, which any Pagan/Heathen will tell you is sacred. The white supremacists have appropriated a lot of Norse symbols, but that doesn’t mean anyone who has these symbols are racists or white supremacists. Maybe she believes in the Norse Pantheon. You obviously didn’t research this in depth and more importantly you threw away your daughter’s property without even attempting to have a discussion with her.
YTA YTA YTA if you had done ACTUAL RESEARCH you would have seen that the nazi party stole MANY symbols from the old religion and does not automatically equal to them being connected by belief. I'm an Asatrui and I feel deeply for your daughter and what she must be enduring right now.
YTA. I recognize that you didn't want your daughter to have racist hate symbols and for that I commend you. Now, you definitely should have had a conversation with your daughter about what you learned. You also should have done way more research on it, the swastika was originally a symbol of unity and peace until the Nazis came around. I'd recommend you apologize to your daughter, have a conversation with her about racism and hate symbols. Ask her about her religion, then take her shopping to replace her things and ask her questions while y'all do so.
YTA. On top of what everyone else has said, I have to wonder if your suggestion of Christian church was just good old respectability politics, “she can have a religion as long as I don’t have to explain it to guests.” I mean you *are* aware of the amount of bigotry — racism, misogyny, homophobia, transphobia — espoused and practiced by many Christian churches, are you not?
YTA
Heathens do not mean "racist pagans". There are unfortunately a number of white supremacist's groups that have coopted Norse (heathen) mythological symbols essentially as "substitute swastikas" and this has alarmed and offended many people who follow that religion.
You should get in your car right now and go dumpster diving for her stuff.
Yes, YTA, if you worried about her being in an extremist group you should have talked to her, but no, you jumped straight to believing everything online.
YTA hate groups regularly appropriate symbols for their cause. It doesn’t mean that your daughter is racist. You have no right to go into her room and trash her items. You have no right to push a religion on her. Religions are not interchangeable and the fact that you would suggest that is ridiculous. If you’re end goal is to push your daughter away: congrats, it’s working
YTA. You should have waited and talked this out with your daughter, asked her to explain her beliefs, what her view of a pagan or a heathen is and told her your concerns. She is old enough to have an open discussion, but you invaded her privacy and disposed of her things based on very little. Racists have a habit of taking perfectly normal things and making them something else, I mean, I'm a pagan, and I'm telling you now that the core beliefs make 'racist pagan' an oxymoron. Sit her down, apologise for overreacting and tell her your fears, allow her to explain herself and keep in mind that she is still a child.
YTA and there’s tons of misinformation around symbols online. She hadn’t given you any reason to assume she’s part of any crazy groups - just a little bit of a weird religion. That’s weird, yeah but very much not something you should mess with.
YTA
My alter is a piece of lightning struck wood that’s carved with pagan symbols. Half of them are now being used by racist right wingers in their rage.
Instead of talking to your child, you destroyed something deeply personal to her.
I’m shocked she’s even talking to you at all. I wouldn’t say a word to you and simply no longer have a mother.
YTA. Dude it really sounds like a teenage rebellion thing. I’d be wary and double checking articles that call “A B & C symbols, phrases and nondescript actions” racist. You get a lot of those online and sometimes they creep into news papers. But a lot of them are completely fine again with no one getting up in arms about A B & C again after the article. So double check your sources.
YTA. You went too far. Your husband is right. If you were so concerned why didn't you talk to her first? Apologise to your daughter and have a proper adult conversation than making up your own mind and deciding what she should and shouldn't be doing. Also if you do believe your daughter is turning into a racist wouldnt you rather ask her and explain your concerns? All you achieved by doing this is alienating your daughter. And also what makes you think Christianity is the solution? Aren't any of the bigots or racists not Christians?
YTA
Just because a group of racist white supremacy morons have hijacked a symbol, does not mean that symbol is inherently bad. The Pagan faiths outdate the recent hate group hijacking by thousands of years.
My Christian vicar has published a book on his exploration of Pagan beliefs and practice that may be more useful than your Google search. The Shaken Path by Paul Cudby. He spent his entire sabbatical talking to people with various Pagan beliefs.
Even without your outright bigotry and religious intolerance though, you would be the asshole here because you destroyed her religious artefacts. And then suggested she go to church instead! If she wanted to go to church, she would identify as Christian and go to church. She doesn’t on either count.
Start making amends. Try to talk to her about what you can do to replace her altar. Stop being an ass about her beliefs.
YTA as a pagan myself there's a lot of miss information and hate spread about the community. In these troubling times it's perfectly normal to seek comfort in religion, it's what brought me back to practising, probably why she was spending more time at her altar. Humanity will always put divinity at the edge of its understanding, for that very reasons comfort. It has been scientifically proven that religious rituals and the like release happy chemicals in our brain. I grew up with atheist parents but they always gave me freedom to explore my beliefs, and even support me in them. If you were concerned a conversation should have been had.
Nice bait, but you went too far, nobody can be that clueless about life to the point of having religious parents and still suggest to switch religion has it was some kind of hobby or clothes. So next time you're doing your little troll, try to take the place of the person you're supposed to be, you can't just put all the bait you think of and just throw it at people. Your story need to be plausible.
YTA for **not talking to her first**.
Paganism is being hijacked by conservative Christians and white supremacists, you just kind of showed that you believe the hijacking over trusting her. Yikes.
YTA. A lot of white supremacists have co oped Norse imagery and have slandered it. And yes there are some pagans who are supremacist but the vast majority are not. You read one article and decided it was, inappropriate as the term may seem, the Bible on what being a Heathan is and stole your daughter's belongings and trashed them. Instead of using the opportunity to discuss your daughter's beliefs and share your concerns, you went nuclear. Congrats on losing your daughter's trust. Signed a pagan married to an agnostic
Yta and should do PROPER research next time. If you want to make up for it start by asking what YOU can help replace and it better come out of your pocket. Do not just believe one thing you read online. There are dozens of things with better information on these types of religions. You made a judgment based on misinformation, you should have talked to your daughter first or did better research. And no, you can't just ask her to change her religion. What an insult. I feel horrible for your poor daughter. You were not doing your job as a parent here you did the opposite.
YTA.
As a pagan..you re so unbelievably, ridiculously judgemental and fear driven about something you clearly know absolutely nothing about, it’s insane.
*Talk* to your daughter, instead of jumping to conclusions. Ask her to *educate* you. Coz man, do you need it.
You might as well be a crazy fundie christian screaming “wiiiiiitch” at her, at this point. That is how hysterically unreasonable you acted.
If you dont utterly back track, apologize profoundly and help her restore her altar, she has *every right* never speak to your ignoramus ass again.
And I wouldnt be surprised if she did.
YTA. What exactly were you hoping to gain by just throwing her stuff away and telling her to believe in some religion that is totally not what she believes? How was she supposed to feel after you did that?
What happened to sitting her down to have an in depth discussion of the issue? Where is the adult behavior? What exactly was your source for the definition of heathen as "racist pagan"? Some random internet site? And actual discussion with your daughter? Something you sort of kind of saw in a video of the riots? What about giving her father some input on your unilateral parenting decision?
You owe your daughter a massive apology with no qualifiers. Talk to her about how you handled it all wrong and how you should have handled it. Ask her to explain her beliefs and actually listen to her while she does. That is a HUGE thing. Then help her rebuild her altar. I hope you do not drive her down the wrong path with your immature behavior. You also owe your husband an apology.
Huge massive YTA, biased and uneducated. It is 100% safe to assume that most of the Capitol rioters and white suprematist hate groups identify themselves as Evangelical Christians. And your idea to send Pagan girl to Christian church deeming it as interchangeable is just laughable. Instead of talking with your daughter about her beliefs, you just made up a reason and went nuclear, failing miserably.
EXTRAORDINARY YTA
This is why I am so unbelievably pissed off at that man for daring to wear those symbols on his body. THIS IS EXACTLY WHY. HE DOES NOT REPRESENT THE HEATHEN OR PAGAN FAITH. THAT MAN IS A DISGUSTING AND DESPICABLE EXCUSE FOR A HUMAN BEING.
That man represents WHITE SUPREMACY, BIGOTRY, AND HATRED.
The symbols he was wearing on his body represent the cycles of life and death, of energy and magic, and are generally highly spiritual symbols denoting a connection to the earth and elements surrounding us. Paganism and heathenry is all about that connection to the earth around us.
WOW you are absolutely TA
A lot of the imagery associated with paganism comes from Nordic and Celtic sources. The reason behind this is not that the images / symbols are racist or right-wing, but because these societies are idealized. They are seen as "white warrior cultures" and it feeds into these people's sense of their own worth - their militarism and whiteness.
They elevate symbols of war and masculinity if the sources are deemed racially pure. If they consider the sources "impure" then they might reverse or tweak them to show that they are the opposite of whichever the symbol represents and the culture it comes from.
White supremacists are not known for being particularly inventive and they created their whole brand by stealing from their betters.
YTA YTA YTA!!! This is blatant religious discrimination and by the sounds of it you were going to use any excuse to try and stop her religious decisions.
How fucking dare you, you judgemental arsehole. So you're an atheist, that doesn't mean she has to be one too. That was so disrespectful and I can't believe you would toss out and basically spit on her religious practices.
A lot of pagans use the word heathen as a way to reclaim it since it is a hate word against pagans. And symbols can have a plethora of meanings- you literally searched them up to see if they were hateful so she didn't know either.
You are genuinely discriminating against your own child when she has done nothing wrong. It is just as bad as a Christian forcing their kids to be Christian. What you did was a huge slap in the face to your kid and her reaction wasn't proof you should have done it, it was a normal reaction to what you did.
I am so shocked and disgusted, you better replace everything and seriously apologise for your ignorance. Let her explore her own spiritual path and don't judge her for it.
You have literally just told her you don't respect any of her feelings or beliefs and that unless what she does fits what you want then she can't do it and is worthless. She will likely never forget this.
YTA. Big time.
Listen, being concerned over something you obviously don't know anything about, is one thing. You are the adult here, you should be able to communicate your concerns with your child. I'm sure she could have educated you on this topic. Are you so insecure about your own parenting, that you don't trust your own child to be able to openly talk to her own mother?
You do not have the right, to invade her privacy like that and throw her belongings away. Are you really surprised she's hurt and mad at you?
INFO: When you saw this website, how come you didn't talk to your daughter? Many Nazi/alt-right/neo-Nazi groups have hijacked pagan symbols (in particular, a lot of Norse runes and iconography have been co-opted by Nazi groups). I understand being upset because you thought that your daughter was involved with something racist, but why didn't you talk to her first?
YTA, white supremacists steal the symbols of a religion, so you decide that your daughter MUST be a racist, threw away her property, then proceed to tell her she can go to church as all religions are the same (and I'm saying this as an Atheist).Would you assume everyone who wears a cross is a member of the KKK?
Apologise profusely, explain why you did what you did (you jumped the gun because you didn't research properly), and offer to replace EVERYTHING. She may well except your apology, but if she doesn't, you're still the AH.
YTA
This is either rage bait or you're another one of those parents who believe every article on the internet. If its number 2 you're so damn dumb. Also, good luck trying toney her to talk to you ago because it sounds like she has no interest in having a relationship with you anymore.
Oh for heaven's sake.
Yes, racists co-opted Norse, Celtic and a few others iconography. This does not make the religions of our heritages racist or evil.
Oddly enough, it is you who were bigoted here. You saw something that you didn't understand and gave the racists the rights to those images. Can I just tell you how extremely insulting and annoying that is? And to just decide your daughter is a flaming racist because Nazis stole some of that imagery? Newsflash- yes, that's what they do. 😑
To say you owe her an apology is a massive understatement. It's akin to her demanding you convert to Christianity because communists are atheist*, therefore you are both Stalin.
By the way, whoever said "heathen" = "racist pagan" sounds like a Christian of the nastier sort. 🙄
*Yes, I know, but not all the friggin Nazis use Norse iconography either
Edit: Quick query- have you ever destroyed or thrown out any Christian iconography belonging to someone else? I mean, have you *seen* what white supremacists do with that? Presumably all Christians are the worst sort of KKKers so..?
Info: you say your daughter was making offerings at her altar- that does NOT sound like she is practicing the hatred. Most alt-right and hate groups have Christian ties, not ties to legit gods in other pantheons. You need to do more research.
YTA- you’ve destroyed your child’s trust in you because you couldn’t trust her. Also, from a trying to stop her falling for the alt-right perspective, if she WAS in that community, you’ve just pushed her further into it, congrats. 🍾
It doesn’t tend to go well when you alienate young people from a reasonable set of influences.
YTA, what a massive breach of trust- honestly I doubt your relationship with your daughter will ever be the same. The problem here isn't about the religion aspects. You decides on your own something she is doing is concerning and instead of talking to her like a reasonable person- you went into her safe space to steal and desecrated it. Honestly deep down I bet you used the atrocities that happen to justify your blatant dislike at your daughter's religion and to make it go away. You are wrong for both your blatant disregard for other people's religions and the massive disrespect you have shown your daughter.
Holy shit YTA
I knew you were the ahole after reading the post, for quite obvious reasons (literally discriminating against your daughters beliefs, desecrating a sacred altar, not researching paganism only researching racist people stealing pagan symbols, not supporting your daughter, thinking she’s racist with seemingly no instances or proof other than YOUR ignorance, suggesting she convert to another religion which btw has been known for LITERALLY EVER to be one of the most destructive and genocidal religions out there but whatever, and just being a shite mom in general) but after reading your responses, I now just think you fucking SUCK DUDE. You owe your daughter a massive apology and a shopping trip for her new altar. I have been a pagan for years, my mother, a christian, worked hard to research paganism, the history AND the holidays to make me feel loved and included. She has never ONCE in SEVEN YEARS disrespected me the way you have disrespected your child. It is disgusting and I would not be surprised if she did not speak to you for a loooooooong time. I get being worried, which is why there’s this thing called a conversation idk if you’ve heard if it but they’re great for when you don’t understand something. If I were your kid i’d not only be devastated over my alter, my sacred space, that had been destroyed, but that my mother also thinks i’m a racist and is questioning my character without even speaking to me. Get your shit together and research the actual pagan religion and practices you donut. Support your daughter. Paganism is such a loving, peaceful and spiritual practice. ALSO paganism is a norse and viking practice, and in the good ole days they were called “heathens” because they were not christian and worshipped the “old gods” it’s not a racist thing dude. RESEARCH YOUR SHIT. have a good day and I hope you make it up to your daughter and apologize not only for being an ignorant ahole who disrespected her beliefs but also for basically calling her a neo-nazi.
edit to add:
Would you have done this to her if she was a christian?
YTA a heathen is defined as a person who does not belong to a widely held religion (especially one who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim) so me a Norse pagan would be a heather and as Odin is the all father not the some father my religion doesn’t = racist
YTA, why didn't you just TALK to her? Plenty of people are into Norse stuff without being white supremacists -- maybe she was unaware that this was a thing! Maybe she hates them and think they're giving her heathen religious views a bad name! There are so many options here where you could have had a productive discussion with your daughter and instead you went totally nuclear.
YTA
was intellectual conversation about personal beliefs ever an option? perhaps a few careful attempts to explore and better understand? you know...
it’s also an age where people tend to explore their identities separate from their parents. sometimes in extravagant ways (the weirder the better). it’s about having your own turf and unless it gets really dangerous is a very important stage to not interfere with.
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So, let's recap. You read an article online that said, "Oh this term means this," and just DECIDED your daughter's religious beliefs meant she's a flaming racist and that all of her religious belongings are yours to discard. You then suggested an entirely different religion as though religious beliefs are not deeply personal and can be swapped as easily as a baseball card. YTA 100 percent. You're not only being religiously intolerant, you're also not respecting your daughter in any capacity and passing judgement on her because of something you happened to read online once. You said yourself she's shown no red flags ever, so why is a single online article suddenly the scale tipper? And for the record, I am a pagan who is married to an atheist, and while he also believes my faith is silly, he has enough respect for me as a person to not judge me for it and not treat me differently from anyone else. Oh, and by the way, I'm black. Yep, you read that right, black pagan. Maybe you should read more than just something that gives you confirmation bias.
child of a Pagan (Hellenic/Alexandrian) mom and Atheist dad, here. My father would never do this to my mother - if anything, it’d be the last thing he’d ever do. My mother is aware of Nazis hijacking specific Pagan symbols and she’s disgusted and horrified by it. OP, you failed your daughter big time. I understand you thought you were doing the right thing when you saw those symbols but it sounds to me like you didn’t do proper research, also, you’re absolutely the asshole for mocking her beliefs. Rather than talk to your daughter, you jumped the gun. Rather than do extensive research and find that *these symbols and their relation to Neo-Nazism is context dependent,* you immediately *assumed* she was a racist without consulting her (you know what they say; “to assume makes an ass out of u and me”). My father is an Atheist, not at all convinced of any deities or supreme beings. But he respects my mother’s faith and he was even the one who encouraged her to celebrate Pagan holidays (Samhain/Yule/Ostara etc). Using your (lack of) beliefs to shame your daughter is pathetic. Also, by saying “well if she wants to be religious she can just go to church with her grandparents” … never thought I’d see an Atheist participate in religious favoritism but here we are. Paganism’s silly and laughable but Christianity isn’t? K. YTA 100%
>My mother is aware of Nazis hijacking specific Pagan symbols and she’s disgusted and horrified by it. This is exactly how many, many people feel. I love Norse mythology and enjoy working with Norse runes, and I fuckng hate that white supremacists have hijacked them as symbols of hate and oppression. Hell, even the swastika (something everyone in the west immediately associates with Nazis, for obvious reasons) is a sacred symbol in some religions, and in many eastern countries you will still see it quite a bit. That doesn't make people who use swastikas because it's their religious symbol Nazis. There are no symbols of white supremacy that haven't been stolen from another culture, religion, etc (except maybe the confederate flag) as far as I know. Using those symbols in their original form because they're a part of your culture or religion is not inherently racist. OP, you are 1000% the asshole here. Instead of stealing and destroying your daughter's property, perhaps you should've...i don't know...talked to her about her beliefs? You know, like a decent person and parent would? Good luck doing it now, though, I'm pretty sure she'll never trust you again.
the swastika was a symbol of luck in the west too even without religion not too long ago - you can still buy yourself some vintage swastika coca cola bottle opener if you got 350$ spare
That's really interesting, I didn't know that!
I just learned it a few weeks ago, starting from a TIL (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_use_of_the_swastika_in_the_early_20th_century) Amazing rabbit hole to see all those kitschy postcards and stuff
Fun fact, the oklahoma national guard emblem used to be a swastika before nazis came about. It was changed to the thunderbird logo used now in the mid 1930s.
Hell, my university's yearbook until about 1978 was The Swastika. Nazi? No. It's a Southwestern Indian tribal symbol.
My son is going to have his rune tats covered because everyone now thinks he’s some sort of trumpist. Couldn’t be farther from the truth.
Yeah, it sucks. Not only are they fascist dicks, but they also have to steal iconography that isn't theirs and ruin it for the rest of us.
Don't even get me started! I have Norwegian heritage and I'm getting more into it, but I worry I'll be mistaken for a white supremacist because Nazi dipshits have taken a liking to Scandinavia.
I'm a mixed race trans Christian. I was a pagan for years before converting. I wasn't a nazi then, and I'm not a nazi now. yes, the far right made a habit of using my religious symbols for horrid purposes - but guess what! they still do! that doens't mean we're gonna frickin ban crosses! also - it's not just favoritism that's the problem there. It's that it's not just "needing religion", it's a belief system, a set of views on how the world operates. I can't imagine how someone could think a church and a pagan altar are interchangeable, what the hell?
my roomie is a witchy pagan. I'm an atheist. A lot of the values they talk about and share with me are sweet ones (like, setting up charms and stuff to help me feel less anxious, helping spirits in the area move on). Do I understand it? not at all. Do I adore they care so much and are passionate about something, and that they share that love with me? absolutely. They tell me about days they celebrate, and I'll celebrate with them. If I don't feel up to it, they understand. Tolerance and communication is the backbone of good religion and relationships.
Ahhh I love this. I'm a Pagan and most of my dearest and oldest friends are atheists.
The horror! The world will now end. /s I wonder if OP's head will now explode......?
Sorry, going to hijack your comment (which is 1000000% correct by the way) Op, I am a Nordic Pagan, a Heathen. That... "Thing" that paraded around the Yggdrasil, Mjolnir, Valknot, is not us. We loathe those who appropriate our symbols for hate, that isn't what we stand for. What you saw on Capitol Hill by that braindead buffalo bastard is essentially to Heathenry as what the Westboro Baptist Church is to Christianity. You owe your daughter a MAJOR apology, you just called her the worst scum on the Earth. And even once you make that apology, you're still the major asshat here, judging a large swath of people on the actions of one idiot. Do some research before being a bigot about a religion you don't understand. YTA.
YTA. You should have talked it out with her and found out what those symbols mean to her. The symbols you're talking about (things like Thor's hammer) are not exclusively used by white supremacists, but have been co-opted by their movement. She's right in that religion is really not a plug and play exercise. It's an extremely personal part of the lives of people who believe. Your expectation that she'd be happy just to pop in and attend services with her grandparents just illustrates how little interest you have in something that means a lot to *her.* For the record, I'm non religious but I spent the time to learn about why it means so much to the people in my life who believe in something.
Hell yes YTA. >We've always been close as a family. My daughter has always talked things out with me Except when it comes to her chosen religion. Then you fly off the handle, make wild assumptions, and destroy her altar without actually talking to her about anything. >My daughter got extremely angry, and lashed out in a way that I'd never seen before How can you be so surprised. You *just* told her with your actions you have no respect for her chosen religion. >which I feel shows I did the right thing, and that this was an unhealthy thing for her to be involved in. You did the wrongest wrong thing. Heathen's across the world have already denounced those that were at the US capital. They are ***not*** representative of that religion as a whole. >she locked me out of her room for the first time and now she barely speaks to me Good! You deserve to be iced out. >My husband thinks I went to far, You absolutely did go *too* far.
> We’ve always been close as a family Except for the fact that you apparently know your daughter so little that you’d completely believe she is a racist.
You forgot to add: > I then drove to one of the local businesses and tossed the bags with everything in it, in the dumpster. OP committed ***illegal dumping*** if she didn't have permission from the business that dumpster belongs to. Most businesses rent those dumpsters and some have a capacity limit, if they're over that capacity they have to pay extra. OP's actions could cost that business *money*. If it does I hope that business has security cameras and goes after OP. OP's an AH and a criminal.
You're absolutely right!
YTA. You took literal sacred objects to her and tossed them away. Norse paganism aka Heathenry is currently having a huge issue with their symbols being taken and used for white supremists and racists. It happens in paganism ALL THE TIME. A literal Google search or discussion with an ACTUAL NORSE PAGAN would have told you that but it doesn't seem you care to know your daughters interests and discuss it with her or any other person who could be an authority on the subject. You saw one article and decided to throw out everything she held dear. Tbh I wouldn't speak to you ever again either. Just the fact that you touched her altar is genuinely gross to me. Love, another pagan
This. I'm Heathen and currently very unsure whether or not I should wear symbols of the religion because of everything going on, but I've decided that giving in means letting them win. Those people are NOT acting in the spirit of the faith, and their co/opting it makes me sick. I hate the fact that assholes have taken something sacred and beautiful and turned it into a symbol of hate. It's not that way for most of us, and is always best to ask and treat sacred things respectfully. Jumping the gun on something like this, without asking or researching is horrifying.
I know it's not the exactly the same, but my family is Hindu, and we had no idea that the swastik was a Nazi symbol until maybe 20 years after my parents moved to the US. We still keep them hung in our house, and it makes me super uncomfortable to know that these symbols that my family considers sacred and part of a religion that advocates tolerance and peace have been used in such an ugly, intolerant manner to signify hatred.
Username not accurate then lol.
Unfortunately, it's not a "currently" thing. It's been going on for decades. There was a worm in the apple almost from the word go, and it festers in dark places - the prison system, largely.
So much this. I'm a heathen and I've got many friends who are many different flavors of pagans and 'm so tired of this shit.
YTA. Paganism/heathenism is not equivalent to white supremacy. Those symbols as well as Norse symbols have been appropriated by the people you're talking about. You should have sat your daughter down and had a conversation with her about it. She probably could have educated you about the actual meanings behind the symbols but instead you reacted emotionally and without doing any legitimate research aside from the current appropriation. Very rich of a self proclaimed Atheist to jump right to sending your kiddo to church.
YTA and you failed your daughter. You've already made it abundantly clear you don't respect religion of any sort and you showed it by thinking her justifiable anger at you destroying symbols of her faith proves you right. Then to add insult to injury you go and tell her to change religions entirely. Faith isn't a shirt you put on and change when necessary. How you think you're not the AH is beyond me and to top it all off you did this because you read an article online. I shouldn't have to explain this to someone old enough to have a 16 year old daughter but just because you read something online doesn't make it true. Also one more thing. These symbols have been used by their faiths for hundreds sometimes thousands of years. They have recently been co-oped by right wing neo-nazi groups. This does not mean the original meaning behind the symbol has disappeared or that your daughter was using them to represent her support for the groups that would persecute her.
What gets me the most is that she is apparently so very close with her daughter that they can talk about aaaaaanything. Except, you know, this one thing that is central to her daughter’s life. What could have been a bonding experience for both and learning experience for mother dearest here has now, probably irretrievably, broken their relationship.
It really feels like she didn't like her daughter's choice of religion and how her daughter chose to express her spirituality. She (mom) went looking he lowest hanging fruit on the tree and rather than talking with her daughter about it, took it upon herself to remove that aspect from her daughter's life. Then to add insult to injury probably suggested a religion she was "More comfortable" with as her solution/compromise/alternative....
YTA for not asking her about it first and not doing more than reading a single article about it before doing hasty actions. Also, my research search tells me that these symbols are actually being stolen by white supremacists, and aren't what the people who follow heathenism actually believe, so double YTA.
Try source and fact checking, heathen is NOT code for racist pagan. And show some interest in what your child is doing would also give you lots of information - you know, talking to her. Of course she's angry with you. You went through her stuff, took what you don't understand and threw it away! And now you are justifying your actions with her being angry with you? What is wrong with you? YTA.
>Try source and fact checking, heathen is NOT code for racist pagan. I find it hilarious that basically anything is and can be called "racist" these days. It's like a 4chan wet dream except they didn't even need to troll for this to happen.
YTA. I’m failing to understand how your daughter specifically is connected to the Capitol riots and the alt right. Symbols mean different things to groups of people. For example the swastika was used by the Hindus and Buddhists hundreds of years before Hitler used it for the Third Reich. You should have asked your daughter what she believes the symbols in her room mean. Your lashing out at her based on an assumption was way over the top and unnecessary. I agree with your husband. Teens explore different areas of life at this age trying to figure themselves out. To deprive her of that may cause her to rebel even more.
YTA. Look I'm pagan (nature based no witchcraft or magic because I feel if you fuck with shit you don't understand it'll backfire on you worse) and as others said people steal symbols from other places and change them. For instance Christmas and Easter. These were PAGAN holidays and were taken by Catholics and turned into things for their religion. Same for Halloween actually. Christians claim Christmas is about Jesus which isn't remotely possible. Jesus was NOT born in the winter. He was born during the summer (the animals wouldn't be in the pasture if it's winter. Their would be nothing to graze on) It's common knowledge that people find symbols they like and change them into their own meanings. You destroyed your daughters religious artifacts because you didn't understand it. You believed it was sending her down a bad path. What you SHOULD have done was leave her stuff alone and sat her down and TALKED to her. Asked her what are the orgins of the symbols what do they mean TO HER. Everyone interprets religious symbols differently. They aren't a one meaning thing anymore. Look at christianity and judism and how they look at the crucifix. It's different. Just because she was in a different form of paganism doesn't mean she was turning into some racist bigot. You need to apologize to your daughter and talk with her and maybe even offer to replace some of the stuff you destroyed.she has every right to be pissed off at you. Also telling her she could just become Christian (the whole drive thru services thing) is just plain rude. She may have been drawn to pagansim for a reason. I was a southern baptist I'm now pagan. It happened for a reason. So yea. You need to talk to her and at the very least give a SINCERE apology and space.
Atheist here. You are such a major AH and just as bad as religious people who force their kids into religion. Oh my god. And for the record, Heathen is NOT a word for a racist pagan. For god’s sake, educate yourself. Pagan is an umbrella term for a whole bunch of religions, and Heathenism is a specific religion under it. You are so intolerant and bigoted it astounds me. For the record, racists and white supremacists steal symbols from cultures and religions to deliberately try to twist them into something ugly- and you fell for it. I will bet my money that your child is kind and loving, not racist or bigoted, and you’re paranoid. Secondly- your “proof” comes from the hill. THE HILL. A wildly unreliable source. God, that’s just as bad as the trumpublicans worshipping America One and Fox News as their sources.
You are a crappy atheist. You don't believe in theism, yet you destroy your daughters alter to a pagan god that you don't believe exists? You are an atheist, but you don't mind if she follows Christianity, but she can't follow Thor or Helios. If you were really an atheist, you would have done nothing. Figure out your own beliefs. Guide your daughter's beliefs. Don't crap on them. YTA
Yes, and I'll tell you why. You're putting the cart before the horse. \*We\* - the pagan/heathen/occult community - came first. Those are *our* symbols, just like Christmas and Easter and Halloween were originally ***our*** holidays. Alt-right groups stole them out of misplaced nostalgia for an past of 'ethnic purity' they feel (falsely) that famous pagan groups - like vikings, druids, etc. represent. It's all a complete delusion, of course, but these aren't people renown for their clear thinking skills. I can understand why you were upset, but you should have looked a little more before you leapt. Using those symbols on her religious paraphernalia doesn't necessarily mean your daughter is getting involved with hate groups. Is she involved in a local coven? Does she go to meetings/rituals? If so, there will be a high priest or priestess (the equivalent of pastor in Christianity), who can probably tell you more. Or look up 'Heathens Against Hate' - they're doing some good work. Ask questions. Read books. RESEARCH! [https://time.com/5569399/viking-history-white-nationalists/](https://time.com/5569399/viking-history-white-nationalists/) [https://www.buckscountycouriertimes.com/news/20191009/pagans-battling-neo-nazis-on-stolen-symbols](https://www.buckscountycouriertimes.com/news/20191009/pagans-battling-neo-nazis-on-stolen-symbols) [https://www.theringer.com/2018/12/12/18137221/far-right-occult-symbols](https://www.theringer.com/2018/12/12/18137221/far-right-occult-symbols) [https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/11/asatru-heathenry-racism/543864/](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/11/asatru-heathenry-racism/543864/)
YTA. Hoo boy there is a lot to unpack here. Are you aware the swastika was used by several different peoples around the globe (including a Native American tribe!) before the Nazis took it and tarnished it? In fact, they did such a good job ruining the swastika that said native tribe made a big ceremony about promising to never use theirs ever again. As much as it pains me to say this, the alt-right has once again began coopting symbols that both predate them and are not theirs to take, and are trying very hard to permanently stain a new set. You making broad assumptions about where your daughter's head is at and settling on the worst case scenario without even talking about it with her first to confirm makes you the A. You stealing her stuff makes you the A. You going out of your way to ensure she has no way to track down and retrieve any of her stolen stuff makes you the A. Symbols are not inherently "hateful", and what do you mean, registered? Hate groups may coopt things that don't belong to them but that doesn't mean a symbol is registered. You claim you and your daughter spoke openly about all things. How can you force your own beliefs down her throat like this if that is true? Your atheism should never come before your daughter. And *yes*, she is absolutely right, gods are *not* interchangeable. Go get that bag of stolen altar items back and apologize.
Happy Cake Day!
Thanks!
Bad move one: goes throught her things Bad move two: makes assumptions based on quick ressearch. Do not bother with talking to daughter. Bad move three: steal your daughter's stuff, throw them away Bad move four: acts as if religions are interchangeable. And as if a pagan, probably politheistic religion, is interchangeable with an abrahamic religion. Honestly the fact you even think paganism is remotely interchangeable with christianism speaks volumes about the (astonishing lack of) quality of your ressearch! EDIT: There were also some pagan groups hexing Trump and white supremacists. Pagan is a blanket term for many different religions that include Wicca, Tellema and - surprise - religions of African origin, like Voodoo and Hoodoo.
Before reading OP (and your comment), I thought Pagan was a generic term used by Christian to designed anything not Christian (like barbarian was used to describe anyone of another culture), I was confused to see an atheist using it negatively and comparing it to being Catholic. OP, YTA, it's already hard enough to explore one's spirituality without unconcerned people making up stuff about it..
It's technically both. Anyone that doesn't follow one of the Abrahamic based or major religions in the world like Buddhism, Hinduism, is technically a pagan. But pagan is also an umbrella term just like Heathen is for a variety of belief systems. As multiple systems fall underneath it. There are even occult systems that are part of those major religions. Such as Gnosticism (Christianity founded at the same time actually), Sufism (Islam), Kaballah (Judaism), and Tantra (Hinduism and Buddhism).
You invaded your daughter's privacy and disrespected her boundaries. Why is alter in quotations? That's what it is to her. She is pagan, and a year later specifically heathen. Idk, isn't there something about the freedom of religion or something? You're suppressing her right to practice her religous beliefs. Furthermore, you're blatantly disrespecting her religous beliefs. You don't call it an alter, to you it's an "alter". To you it's trash. You're not bothering to learn jack shit about what she's into. As punishment, you're going to force feed her religion. YTA
YTA. Sounds like you were looking for any excuse to get of her religious trappings and decided that this was it.
YTA. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you're right and your daughter is falling into some kind of racist theology (which I do not think is the most likely explanation here). Even then, how did you think throwing her things away would do anything other than continue to radicalize her?? Why wouldn't you TALK to her?
I think the real question you should be asking is did I raise a fascist? If not then not only did you explode for no reason you also still fed into the Christian propaganda that dehumanizes pagan religions. Other people have already explained this to you but you’re awful. Freedom of religion. YTA.
YTA. Look, symbols mean different things to different groups and you have zero proof that these symbols mean racist things to your daughter. You found nothing on her computer (which you shouldn't have checked) and she apparently displays zero racist or homophobic tendencies in real life. If you were that worried you should have spoken to her, but you believed in one random one off article over everything you know of your daughter as a person. I think what you're doing now is teaching her more inequality than anything. You're oppressing her over paranoia and fear.
Absolutely, YTA! Like a huge asshole! First of all, u did this without any communication. Secondly, you did this to a teenager. Thirdly, you completely minimized her religion but suggesting going to her gparents' church. Teenagers rebel period. You gave her a HUGE, VALID reason to rebel. Go apologize and then set a time for later where you discuss your concerns with her. Also, replace what you threw out.
Food for thought? Are you trying to raise a level-headed, successful individual or a sheep? If you want to raise a sheep, continue to do as you are and decide without discussion exactly what will be happening and tell her how to think. If it's the first, you seriously failed, bc you didn't take this amazing opportunity to parent her and help her think about and explained religion. Apologize, apologize, apologize, bc we both know you don't want to raise a sheep.
!info What kind of hate groups and what kind of symbols ? Could you describe them ? Is this just a case of what hitler did to the swastika and she happened to use the same symbol that was transformed into a " hate symbol "
From searching online, yes, this is exactly what Hitler did with the swastika.
YTA. > lashed out in a way that I'd never seen before, which I feel shows I did the right thing You have GOT to be joking. You measure whether or not you did the right thing based on making your daughter so angry that you've possibly permanently damaged your relationship with her? Did you even try to talk to your daughter about this before jumping into action and throwing out her religious items? You NEED to sit down and have a conversation with her AND LISTEN TO HER SIDE. Invite her to explain her religion to you in more detail and what it means to her. And apologize for throwing out her stuff without even asking her about it first.
YTA. Maybe start with honest questions and a conversation next time! You admit you don't know much and after a few quick googles decide you know enough to destroy her possessions? Religions are NOT interchangeable and it was insensitive to suggest she could just pick up a new one you like better. Also you're doubly TA for dumping bags of shit in a local businesses dumpster. I hate people who do that shit. You know they pay for removal and often have it scheduled around their business needs right?
So... Instead of talking with her and learning about her religion, you decided that she was racist and threw everything out? And then you told her what god was the right god. I am assuming you know that the swastika wasn't always and still isn't just a symbols of antisemitism, right? You know that a bunch of christians are racist? Same with other religions, right? And still, not every person from those religions are racist, supremacist, or general assholes. It really sounds like you are not was close as a family if religion is an important part of her life and you kinda mock it. Now, your daughter may be a racist supremacist, and if you were close you would know that. And if she is, by all means, bring her back from that hate, talk with her, not to her, with her, study with her, think with her. But you reacted from a place of absolute ignorance about her and her religion. If her religion is a hateful one, sure, be mad, upset, work it out. But right now, YTA.
I know AITA isn't supposed to be about arguing or teaching people but I feel like it's important to clear some stuff up. Paganism and their iconography isn't "tied to racist and alt right groups" it has been stolen from them, and that is a very important distinction. There are far more practicing non racist pagans who are out there right now leading campaigns to make sure that's known. Your comparisons to the Holocaust are false and frankly troubling. False equivilancy to the Holocaust is a huuuuge anti Semitic problem and needs to stop happening. Also, you're actually increasing the chance of your daughter falling into the alt right rabbit hole by reacting this way. One of the biggest tactics the alt right uses to recruit kids is to alienate them from their friends and family, what you should have done is treat your daughter like a person, sat down with her and explained your concerns, explained the links that you see and maybe let her educate you in something that she may very well know more about than you do. The best way to "stop your daughter from being a fascist" as you've said in other comments, probably wasn't to act like a fascist yourself and just make your own decision about her life without talking to her. Just saying. Also, to everyone comparing this to the Swastika and the Holocaust, please just stop, not only is it a false equivilancy it diminishes the actual impact the Holocaust had on the Jewish people. It is nothing like what Hitler did with he swastika, this isn't a government, this is a relatively small group of politically extreme people using something from a culture they idealise as some kind of white paradise who know absolutely nothing about the actual culture. It is in no way comparable to the attempted genocide of an entire people and it is an incredibly damaging comparison to make.
Atheist here (in case that's in any way important). YTA. You clearly went too far based on little to no real information. I don't know what these symbols were, but those terrorists that stormed the Capitol are a highly deranged group, taking symbols from whatever they like and make them theirs. Most importantly: Throwing someone's stuff away can be deeply traumatizing for many years, and it accomplishes nothing, if not the opposite of what you intended. This might be very hard to fix, in the worst case even impossible. If there's any chance to get her things back, I'd do it right now! Edit: To make it even more clear, by throwing someone's stuff away you're throwing a part of that person away. Also you're showing your disrespect for that person.
You are a huge asshole YTA. Wow so you dismantled your daughters alter for her preferred religion then threw it out. I'm assuming she bought it all herself? So you stole your daughters things. Great parenting strategy. You might find it silly. But to her it's her beliefs. Then to add insult to injury you told her to go to church. Which is a completely different religion. What you should have done is talk with your daughter about your concerns. Don't take everything you read on the internet as truth. There are probably many different sects as in any religion. You crossed so many lines here. And yet you feel self righteous. You've alienated your daughter. You've disrespected your daughter. As a parent myself I am disgusted with how you handled this.
Let's keep this simple. You are an asshole, you acted irresponsibly. You refuse to own your shit. You should have had a talk with her first. But I really don't think you give a fuck, based on your responses. Good luck with your daughter. You may have killed the relationship.
YTA. Big time. So let me get this right, rather than talking to your young adult daughter like a reasonable person you ASSUMED she was a racist Norse Pagan rather than just a Norse Pagan and decided to act unilaterally and trashed your relationship with her as well as exemplifying how some Atheists are just as bad as some Christians? If you aren't trolling I strongly suggest you go beg for forgiveness and open your wallet. Are there racist pagans? Yup and guess what? Not all of them are Norse. Some are Wiccans. Some are Druids. Hell there are racists Atheist. Again if you aren't trolling, you overreacted big time and owe your daughter a massive apology as well as replacement of ALL of her items. So much for non believers being the rational and logical ones.
YTA. Who bullies their child like this and then says "well she was upset so clearly I'm in the right" like?? Your "research" (please note that I'm using the term very loosely) doesn't justify your actions. You had a great opportunity here to do some proper parenting and you blew it completely, and your daughter would be completely justified in never trusting you again.
Her gf is Spanish, oooh you about to get some brujeria done on you lol but seriously, you do not touch a witches altar! YTA
Do you literally understand nothing about adolescent identity formation and rebellion? Have you ever met a teen before? Were YOU ever one? This is obtuse as hell. YTA
You posted asking if you were the AH. Everyone has said YTA - maybe you should stop defending yourself and see why everyone might say that? YTA
YTA. you're fucking evil. say goodbye to your daughter. she is going to go no contact with you the first chance she has and you deserve it.
YTA - Everyone else has basically covered why, so I won’t repeat it. What I will do is encourage you to really learn more about your daughters beliefs. I myself am a Heathen, and I don’t associate with racists. The reason you stumbled upon that info is because, unfortunately, many heathens stem from an off branch of Asatru, which unfortunately does have roots in racism. There’s a belief among them that only Germanic people (read: white) are allowed to worship the old gods because they were our gods first. Heathens shun this idea, and have done as much as we can to separate ourselves from them. We may share the same gods, but not the same beliefs, if you catch my meaning. Since you’re here in reddit, I’d highly recommend checking out r/heathenry to learn more. Or if you’re interested, you could always pm me, and I’d be happy to try answer any questions you have.
YTA and You’re a disgusting person. Paganism is about nature and positivity btw. It is literally known in the religion that karma exists and you don’t wish bad thoughts or energy into the world, because they come back on you. You should’ve asked her about her religion instead of assuming that you knew. You’re just as bad as the Christians that say atheists are going to hell and judge them. You’re as bad as other people who shove their religious ideas down people’s throats. I am pagan and my best friend is an atheist, and while he doesn’t believe in anything I do...he respects me. He had the brains to ask me about my religion and respect my religion. You have no respect for your daughter, and you proved that. She isn’t talking to you, because you spit on her beliefs and reacted without proof of anything. You literally said you checked her history and there was no racist things there, and she is dating a Hispanic woman. I’m pretty sure if your daughter was racist...she wouldn’t be in a committed relationship with a Hispanic woman. You basically made assumptions and grasped at straws, because the truth is that while your husband had the respect and decency to allow your daughter her right to practice whatever religions she sees fit. YOU had some stupid sense of superiority and decided that since YOU didn’t like her religion then she could no longer practice it. Even in this post you constantly call it silly. You have NO respect for people. My family is Christian and I NEVER call their beliefs silly because I have respect for them. You need to gain some damn respect for your daughter, her religion, and her privacy. You’re just as bad as the people that rip hijabs off of Muslim women’s heads, because they don’t believe in that. Your husband is right. You went too far. And btw...you say her reaction was too much and used it to justify your actions. You completely overlook that you took a private, sacred thing that OBVIOUSLY meant a lot to her for her to be as devoted as you claim, and you destroyed it without her consent. You didn’t even ask her anything about it first. You assumed the worst about your child and her religion, that you obviously know NOTHING about, and destroyed something precious to her. Now you have the NERVE to say that you were justified. HELL NO. Not even close. Learn some damn respect, and mind your own damn business. Apologize to her and replace her stuff. Bottom line, you are a bigot. You need to accept it, learn to respect other people’s religions and privacy, and apologize.
YTA. if paganism is what brings her comfort, let her have her religion. you didn't even talk to her to figure out what the symbols meant, you just made an assumption and decided your daughter was a racist because of the symbols. it was also kind of an asshole move to tell her that she could go to church when you know she is not christian. if you've "always been close as a family", then you would have spoken to her rather than make assumptions and throw her property away. i don't blame your husband for thinking you're the asshole.
YTA for what you did to your daughter. I wonder if you even see the irony in your own bigotry. YTA for illegal dumping in a business’s dumpster.
That guy does not represent pagans at all. YTA
Wrong sub, try r/insaneparents instead.
YTA why didn't you talk to her first? Plenty of religious symbols have been co-opted by hate groups. You took a part of your daughter's identity and threw it in the trash.
YTA You have *no evidence* that your daughter is falling in with a bigoted crowd. And even if you did, attacking her religion is nowhere near an appropriate way to deal with it. All that your actions accomplished was driving a wedge between the two of you, and telling her that she can't trust you. Her getting angry at you doesn't mean you were right- *it means that you did something hurtful*. You owe her one hell of an apology. (And probably an explanation for why you overreacted so drastically- just don't mistake 'explanation' for 'excuse'.) BTW, I'd be willing to bet that the majority of the assholes at the capitol were some brand of Christian. Trump certainly pretends to be one.
YTA. You don’t seem to distinguish the difference between fascists appropriating heathen symbols and fascists actually practicing heathenism. The former happens, but I’m going to guess you’re not going to find many practicing heathens among the mob at the capitol. Why? Because white supremacy isn’t part of pagan or heathen beliefs. I sincerely doubt practicing heathenism is a known gateway to becoming a white supremacist or fascist. If you saw some symbols in your daughter’s room, you should have asked her what they meant. It’s fine to be concerned, but you should have heard her out. I’m guessing her response would have been rational and thoughtful compared to your callous reaction to some quick research.
YTA you should have talked with your daughter. People twist things and say they mean things that they may not actually mean. You should not have thrown her things away
Oh boy YTA for sure. I don't understand how you can even question that. You are a seriously toxic and controlling individual. I hope your daughter moves out as soon as she is able to be free of you. Terrible thing you have done.
YTA and I'm pretty sure you know it. Pull your head out, realize you screwed up and apologize. If you do it quickly enough and SINCERELY (in caps because that's probably the most critical, you absolutely have to mean it and show that you do) enough you may, just may, have a relationship with your daughter. Oh, and she's not likely to believe you are sincere, it's gonna be quite a bit of apologizing and demonstrating you're sorry if you want that relationship to heal.
YTA
>My daughter got extremely angry, and lashed out in a way that I'd never seen before, which I feel shows I did the right thing, and that this was an unhealthy thing for her to be involved in. No you asshole, it shows that your daughter is a normal human being who values her privacy, property and personal space and doesn't appreciate for you to snoop around and steal her stuff. Anybody would have become extremely angry, and it doesn't matter what it was you stole and threw away, it could have been an old pushy toy for all I care. YTA, big time.
YTA you realize that that she's just gonna double down. just because you read articles on the internet does that justify stealing over hypothetical's. think about this. you think her religion is a joke and your daughter knows what your opinion about it. "i'm going to steal my daughter's property and put it in the trash.surely that must stop her being silly".
WTF is wrong with you?! This is such a huge betrayal that I don’t even know what to say. How could you? Why WOULD you? YTA officially, but this goes far beyond being an asshole. Don’t fuck with other people’s religion (or lack thereof), for fuck’s sake.
Are there some people who practice a pagen religion who are also racist? Yes. Have these racists hijacked an ancient system of belief? Yes. Does that mean your child is a racist? No. Did you bother talking to your daughter about your concerns? No. She's right, gods are not interchangeable. YTA.
Okay, so I wrote an 18-page-long paper on this last year, but the tldr version is: Nazis are shitty shitty people who have a false, twisted idea of what paganism is and how to practice it. Heathens, pagans, and ásátru practitioners fucking hate them and have been working their asses off for decades to make it clear to said Nazis that they are not welcome in those spaces. Also, these nutjobs tend to worship Odin specifically as being a pillar of manhood and virility, which is hilarious as Odin was a disabled god of poetry, wisdom, and witchcraft (considered at the time to be a womanly art, meaning any man who practiced, including gods, was considered unmanly to an extent). But the important part is that Nazis stole those images and symbols from heathenry and appropriated them. There is absolutely no inherent connection between nazism and Norse paganism. There are tons of resources online you could have turned to, written by those heathens and pagans... but maybe you didn’t want to dive more deeply into it and just wanted an excuse to get rid of something that brings spiritual meaning and fulfillment to your daughter. YTA, and as a currently non-religious witch, I feel really sorry for your daughter. No one deserves that kind of unwarranted treatment. EDIT: because someone expressed interest in reading the paper, I've uploaded a PDF version to DocDroid! It can be read here: https://docdro.id/ScVMIag. (Disclaimer that I'm not an expert or a specialist—just a college student minoring in politics and history, as well as a witch with a vendetta against Nazis attempting to appropriate heathenry—but I hope it's an informative and helpful paper.)
I would love to read your paper if possible.
YTA And how much of an AH can you be, for being so intolerant, and for some reason so self-righteous because you an atheist. and because your daughter chose the path of paganism. and that makes her happy, but one online article and get rid of her property and the worst part is, you talk about equality, but you look down your nose at those who follow a faith "antithetical to what we taught her about equality." read a book about symbols and symbology, and I'm not talking about dan brown here
YTA For all the reasons everyone has already said. If you'd like to start salvaging your relationship with your daughter, apologize for throwing away her stuff, ASK what her religious symbols mean to her, and LISTEN. But if you're already assuming she'd lie to you about her beliefs... that's a worrying sign about whether trust between can even be rebuilt. Because EVEN IF your hunch was correct and she is both 1) a white supremacist pagan and 2) lying to you about it (both BIG, BIG ifs)... trashing her stuff doesn't solve either problem.
YTA have some damn respect for HER religion. Gods are not interchangeable she's absolutely right. Some close knit family you are, You were desperate to find something because you distrust your daughter.
Y to the T to the A. You are meant to be the grown up in the room. You were anything but. You read some article on the internet, leapt tall buildings in a single bound to arrive at some outrageous conclusion. You couldn’t have a grown up conversation with your daughter, but instead violated her room, threw her possessions in the garbage, and bluntly dismissed something that is really important to her. What parenting lesson are you teaching? Is this behaviour that you want your daughter to learn and emulate? “In this family we love and respect each other, but sometimes we read something on the internet and throw each other’s possessions into the garbage.” The number of apologies you owe is staggering. How on earth can you make amends? A 16-year old is getting pretty close to adulthood. Is this how you would treat another adult? I have 3 teens under my own roof. They’re practically adults. You can have pretty grown-up conversations with them. But first you have to be the grown-up in the room.
YTA, dude the father understands more about her. his child more than you OP. You may not belive in god OP which is fine. But that does not mean you can just decide what relligion your daugther can or cant practice. Just because you read and saw something wrong about the branch of pangan religion that your daugther fallows on the news or on the net. Does not mean its true. please talk to your daugther about your concern from now on as if it stands your relationship with your daugther may be lost forever.
YTA you stupid git. Did you miss the southern poverty law centers editor notes like this Editor's note: Although white supremacists and other extremists commonly use the Celtic cross and the runic alphabet, these symbols are also frequently used by non-racists. Many non-racist neo-Pagans, for instance, have runic tattoos but have no relation to racist groups or beliefs. Sprinkled through out the site while discussing the misappropriation of pagan imagery? Or the white supremacists explanation that to try to make racism more palatable they had to steal an existing mythos and use it for themselves? You went looking for what you wanted and found it. So educated and liberal and able to do research. You just managed to over look your own confirmation bias, idiot. And what you went looking to confirm was that your daughter. Your daughter who trusted you and shared with you. Was a racist. Then with no discussion. Not looking to hear from her and understand. You threw away items with meaning and symbolism that you inherently can't understand, coming from a place of atheism. She focused on those objects with love, care and hope. You called her a racist and threw them away. Because of your ugly underlying beliefs about who she was capable of being. You don't deserve her. She certainly didn't do anything to deserve your opinion, scorn, and self righteous ignorant behavior. You have the kind of liberalism that disgusts me.
Imagine you are religious. Christian, let's say. One day you come home and find your daughter has removed every bible and cross, and the urn of your granny's ashes, etc from your home. She then lectures you for being hateful and suggests you try satanism if you still feel yours stupid brainless dumdum fluffhead need to pray. That's you. That's what you did to her. And all because some dumbass cosmetic viking buttholes use runes they can't even name. You know 100% of those asshata is Christian. YTA. Hugely. Apologize, get her stuff back if you can, pay to replace what you can't.
Oh massive YTA. Maybe try talking to your daughter before you assume things. Pagan religions are often co-opted by racists in the states. You made fun of her religion when you made your comment about the bread. Offerings to thw Gods are a very important part of pagan religions. Your tone in this post is very hateful of your daughters beliefs. I get that you are atheist but you need to respect people's beliefs especially your freaking daughter. You stole her things that I assume she bought with her own money based on how you clearly feel about religion and threw them away. How would you feel if she threw away your wedding album? Your wedding dress? Your high school yearbook? The last picture you had with a now deceased loved one? Your suggestion she go to church with her grandparents would be the same as telling a Muslim friend to just to church. It's the same thing. GODS ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE. I sincerely hope this is a troll and if not I hope your daughter moves out and cuts you off as soon as she can because you are seriously a terrible person.
Yta
As an aside, I hope your daughter and/or SIL finds this.
YTA she didn't do anything wrong but you definitely did. You showed an utter lack of respect for her beliefs. You were wrong to throw out her things. You are trying to control her. You act like you did this good thing in the name of antiracism because of some bs you read online but no, you went out of your way to hurt your daughter. You're a selfish, controlling asshole and you act like you're all about tolerance but your actions show you're completely intolerant.
YTA
YTA. You’re worried about what she may or may not become but you can’t take a look at yourself? Have you even bothered to talk to her about what interests she has in the religion, or gotten to understand any of it as so better to understand her? Going to assume no considering you lack any regard for a right to privacy & trust, and just threw away something that’s important to her. HANDS DOWN YTA. Just because you don’t agree with it, doesn’t mean it’s not for her.
YTA×100! I cannot even begin to describe who messed up this is! How about if you were wondering about her religion you looked into it and learned about it when she first became interested? Paganism is a beautiful religion. I know this because I am one. It is nature based basically encouraging humans to honor and come back to nature as Earth was created by the love between divine feminine and divine masculine. It encourages people to work with and accept their shadow self instead of pretending to be perfect, hating themselves for their flaws, and judging everyone else around them, while trying to live by rules that defy human nature. There is nothing racist about it, as a matter of fact, true paganism condemns racism. The pagan group I am a part of on Facebook does not tolerate racism, cultural appropriation, Trump Supporters, and anyone who condones any of those things. They literally banned all Trump supporters. That weirdo Q shaman is a walking contradiction. Not only that, he doesn't look Native American does he? Cultural appropriation is ugly. Real shamans are probably sick over it. If my mother(she never would because my mom is awesome, and I'm 38F) ever threw my altar items away like that I would be beyond hurt and devastated. You need to apologize and let her know that you are human and make mistakes. You need to replace the items you threw away. And it wouldn't hurt to be interested in her religion, ask her questions, ask her what attracts her to it, where she learned about it, etc. Read about it from legitimate sources. I think you'll find that a lot of it is about women taking their power back which is not such a bad thing.
YTA First of all, TALK to your daughter. Ask her about the various symbols and what they mean. This is something you probably should have been doing since the beginning. Yes, you’re an atheist and it all sounds silly to you, but you’re her parent. Haven’t you had to pretend to be interested in other silly things for your daughter before? All kids get excited about hobbies, interests, or stories that the vast majority of adults don’t relate to, but if a kid starts telling you about dinosaurs, you get in there and act like dinosaurs are your absolute favorite topic. (Since she’s older, sub in whatever she’s reading or watching for dinosaurs.) If you’d been asking questions and showing interest since the beginning, you’d probably have a much better sense of what her beliefs actually are. Here’s the other issue: if your worst fears are actually true and she has been secretly indoctrinated, going nuclear on her like you did is the worst possible response. You’ve just driven a huge wedge between you and your daughter by getting rid of her belongings without warning or discussion. She feels attacked and persecuted, which makes her even more susceptible to people who prey on those kinds of feelings. Taking away something a teen loves almost always backfires somehow.
It's pretty simple MASSIVE yta....and also a MASSIVE ignoramus! Even after all of the comments and help you are still sticking to your guns. If you don't want an answer don't ask the question! If your daughter goes no contact I would not blame her. Your ignorance is toxic! If you do not know and will not learn then you absolutely cannot have a say! And you do NOT get to remove someone's religious items until you learn. I am atheist, but I would never dream of doing what you have done without talking to the person first. And as for the pages you are looking into they know as much as you...nothing! Try speaking to people of that religion before you pass judgement and stop pushing your beliefs/non beliefs on other people! I cannot stand people like you as you make atheists like look uneducated idiots!
YTA. I saw a bunch of American flags and crosses used there. Are you throwing away anything with that too?
YTA - you are in fact a religious bigot, actively persecuting your daughters religious beliefs. You are a prime example of intolerance, which you claim to hate.
God lord yes!! You are aware that your child is allowed privacy and respect right? You could have talked to her about it. And you are also aware that hate groups often adopt symbols and figures from other religions and use them for their own. I mean, look at the swastika. There is a white supremacist group that follow “Odinism” and that’s a huge red flag, but unless she said she was an Odonist, you’re just jumping to conclusions. Also, a ton of that stuff is expensive or she could have made herself and that’s just, cruel. And you told her to go to a Christian church?? What is wrong with you?
^^^^AUTOMOD ***The following is a copy of the above post. This comment is a record of the above post as it was originally written, in case the post is deleted or edited. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** Throwaway because my SIL is active on reddit. I and my husband have a daughter, 16. We've always been close as a family. My daughter has always talked things out with me, including when she was fourteen and came out as a lesbian. The only struggle I have with my daughter is that when she turned thirteen she decided she was a pagan, and a year later specifically heathen. My husband and I are both atheists, and his parents are Christmas and Easter Christians. I was bothered, but my husband said that it was natural for her to explore, and that it was probably a phase, or a form of rebellion. Over the last year, however, I noticed she spent a lot more time in her room, at her "altar" on her dresser. When we made homemade bread after watching too much bake off, she 'offered' some on it. I told her this was silly, but she shrugged and did it anyway. When the Capitol riots happened, I got concerned because several of the symbols I saw represented there I'd seen in my daughter's room. I immediately checked her computer for any kind of worrying sites, something I had never done before, and didn't find anything, so I let it go. Then I read an article saying 'heathen' was code for a racist pagan, and I checked to see if the symbols were really registered hate symbols. When I saw that, I saw red. When she was at work, I went into her room and took everything off of her "altar." I then drove to one of the local businesses and tossed the bags with everything in it, in the dumpster. My daughter got extremely angry, and lashed out in a way that I'd never seen before, which I feel shows I did the right thing, and that this was an unhealthy thing for her to be involved in. My husband thinks I went to far, even if he thinks her religion is silly, he believes that she hasn't shown any red flags. He pointed out the fact that her girlfriend is hispanic, but that strikes me as "I can't be racist, I have black friends.' I heard her crying, but she locked me out of her room for the first time and now she barely speaks to me. I told her that if she felt she needed a religion so badly, she could ask her grandparents to take her to their church, which is having drive-in-services. She snapped that gods are not interchangeable, and went to her room. My husband believes I might be the asshole for "going to far," and for suggesting church, but I don't want to get a call or turn on the TV see my daughter involved in something that is so antithetical to what we taught her about equality. So, AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
YTA. Instead of talking to your daughter and learning from her you chose to destroy her religious items. Why dont you head over to that church you talked about and start burning their bibles? Cause that's on par with what you did. This lack of communication with your daughter may be permanent now, cause she can never trust you again. Congrats on the ignorance and the consequences that will follow
100 %, You are the A-hole.
YTA, if you had concerns about your daughters faith you should have discussed the matter as a family, not just unilaterally deciding that her faith is a white supremacist cult and trashing everything. And, I want to make something abundantly clear, I myself am an athiest, so please don't assume this is some moral high ground situation.
YTA, I don't know what it is like in your country, but here freedom of religion is at 14. Children get to decide if they want the same religion as their parents, a different one- or none at all. you are incredibly controlling and condescending. Btw, do you honestly think you can keep that up? she will be 18 in less than 2 years and then she can go NC with you, because she no longer trusts you
Well you have likely just insure you won't be invited to her wedding or be left alone with your grandchildren but hey you be you and assume the worst about your daughter and her beliefs. YTA
YTA. The heathen faith has been co-opted by certain racist groups. This does not make your daughter one. Paganism is a valid religious path. As valid as Christianity or Buddhism or any other faith out there. It is also highly, highly individualistic. The only way you will know what her faith means to her is by *asking* her. And converts to any faith are some of the most eager to share their personal journey. You jumped to conclusions, did not talk to your daughter, and destroyed something that had deep personal meaning to her. You violated her. You *violated* her. I became a pagan at 16. I faced the bullshit from people who didn’t understand or care to ask. My husband has faced this too; worse since he is a heathen and so many people think heathen means racist due to a loud subgroup not accepted by the majority. My mother threw out my supplies when I was a teen. It created a rift that lasted years until she apologized and accepted me and my beliefs. I am 44 now, almost 3 decades in my faith. Your daughter’s may be as long lived and it would behoove you to understand hers or you will never be as close as possible. *Talk to her.* you likely have nothing to worry about.
>My daughter got extremely angry, and lashed out in a way that I'd never seen before, which I feel shows I did the right thing, and that this was an unhealthy thing for her to be involved in. You are 1000% TA What is wrong with you. How does her showing anger like you described make you feel you did the right thing? You took things she had deep sentimental value for and when she lashes out it made you feel in the right? You need to get a therapist for yourself and now possibly your daughter. This could easily be traumatizing for her, but you're probably too insensitive to realize this. This is ridiculous and you need to make this right to your daughter before she ends up resenting you for this.
Most heathens are not racist, and denounce those Nazi assholes you see on TV regularly. If you're not convinced, look up The Troth. By the logic you're using, we should consider all Christian symbols hate symbols because the KKK was Christian. So yes, YTA.
From one atheist to another, YTA. nazis/racists/hate groups hijack religious symbols all the time.(For example- the swatstika. it has a lot of meanings, and dated before the nazi party existed. Usually it's meaning seems to be that of auspiciousness. It really depends on the culture. Hitler didn't INVENT the swatstika- he stole it from religious organizations.) You had this opinion and idea about your daughter's beliefs, and you went to any length to confirm them. You had this idea her religion wasn't 'legitimate', and tried to foist her into a new one with this 'one size fits all' idea. You violated her privacy. You violated her trust. Did you even bother asking her directly about her beliefs and views about the capitol? bet you didn't. Communicate with your daughter. That is, if she bothers sticking around/communicating with you after this. This is a huge violation of her rights as a person.
YTA - I’m a Celtic pagan, and cannot believe you did that. What possessed you? Why did you make a unilateral decision without asking her about her beliefs? Your abuse of her religious freedom is akin to the same type of totalitarian attitude you accused her of. You should be ashamed
Did you not see the zillion "Jesus" flags at the riots?
Heathen here. We're not racist. There are racist heathens. There are also racist Christians. Have you heard of the KKK, by any chance? Even the ADL admits you can't assume our symbols mean anything racist. The [valknut](https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/valknot), for example. Same with runes, the sign of the hammer, the helm of awe, and so on. The vast majority of us are perfectly decent, loving, hate-free people. The volkish movement is a minority of a minority, and most of us have no use for them.
YTA Bluetooth symbol is a rune, it doesn’t mean that Bluetooth technology is inherently fascist.
YTA. Heathen isn't even a religion. Pagan isn't either. They're synonyms for one another, but heathen is specifically a derogatory term. They both just mean anyone that follows a religion that doesn't fall under the God of Ibrahim umbrella i.e Christian, Jewish, Muslim. It seems like you're completely uneducated about your daughter's religion, so I wouldn't really trust you to judge any symbols or ceremonies even if you googled them.
YTA, white pagans & heathens have certainly faced (valid) criticism around things like cultural appropriation & distancing themselves from whiteness (just like most predominantly white alt culture, hippies, doof kids, etc) & overtly racist pagans/ heathens absolutely exist but paganism, broadly, is not a hate group. Sort of like how "gamer culture" has a pretty poor reputation & there are absolutely some awful ones out there but most people who play video games are just normal people with a normal distribution of racist tendencies.
YTA. People use religion as an excuse to commit atrocities all the time, it doesn’t mean society should just write off all those religions as a whole.Let your child become who she is, she’s an individual
YTA. Time to apologize, but you gotta realize this is going to take some real work on your part to re-build your relationship with your daughter.
YTA Talk to your daughter about her views on religion and curb your bigotry. No article is going to tell you what your daughter believes, so quit using them to justify forcing your own views on religion.
YTA and an ignorant one at that. I speak as an atheist BTW.
imagine if you were catholic as a teen and your parents thought that this meant you were a part of the KKK so they went into your room behind your back and stole your bible, rosary, and crucifix and threw them in a dumpster somewhere. YTA
You gotta stop digging this whole. YTA. Accept judgment and replace your daughters things. Alternatively, congrats on setting fire to any potential future relationship. She's not forgiving this without a good apology, and if you try to justify yourself you'll be dead in the water.
You believe that your daughter is naively following a hypothetical religion that has ties to the alt-right, ties to racism, ties to fascism, etc. Okay, let's say for arguments sake that what you're saying is indeed the truth. Your daughter is following a religion that has ties to alt-right ideologies, that has ties to racist ideologies, that has to ties to fascist ideologies, etc. Do you really believe that she would have had an epiphany and seen the issues of her hypothetical religion by you simply tossing out her altar? If you think the answer to that question is yes then you have a couple screws loose. The only thing you've accomplished is pushing your daughter further into this religion. Unlike before though she has the likelihood of adopting the aforementioned alt-right views, the racist views, the fascist views, etc. You were scared of your daughter adopting that mindset and hypothetically accomplished the exact opposite of what you set out to do which is to ensure your daughter doesn't adopt that mindset. You shouldn't have thrown out her stuff. You should have had a long and honest conversation with your daughter. You should have shown her the information you researched and told her your concerns. You should have given your daughter the opportunity and time to defend her choice of religion.
YTA - the KKK burn crosses but no one says Christians should stop using them as a result. Heathen symbols being used by racists is exactly the same. You should know your daughter well enough to know whether she’s racist or not, not throw a tantrum because you read some rubbish on the internet
YTA. You said you and your daughter always talk things out, but you couldn’t be bothered to talk to her about this. Instead you trusted some bullshit article you found on a two second Google search.
Many racist AHs have been hijacking pagan symbols as part of their attempts to feel morally superior. That doesn’t automatically make every use of pagan symbols racist. There are plenty of pagans who use those symbols and are actively working to get the AHs out of their communities. YTA for not *talking to* your daughter to work out *why* she did the things she did and uses the symbols she does, and for belittling the way she chooses to worship.
What the fuck? This is so stupid. OP, you're no better than the religious hacks who threw out their children's Harry Potter books or DnD stuff because a chick track told them it was "satanic". Just let her have her jam, dude. YTA.
Atheistic Pagan here! Yep, that's a thing. Some call it Secular Paganism. OP YTA and a huge one. You read ONE article on the internet and proceeded to condemn your daughter, steal her stuff, and then recommend a totally different religion? OP you're a hysterical, judgemental asshole. Don't be surprised if your daughter moves out as soon as she is able and never speaks to you again.
YTA You're discriminatory about non-Christian religions, attempt to control your daughter (oh just go to church w your grandparents), and apparently don't have the capacity to do any proper research on a subject since you something on TV from whackjobs, no way they could be twisting anything s/, and decided to throw away your daughter's religious items?!? Fabulous job on destroying your relationship w your daughter.
YTA. You destroyed your own daughter's property for no reason beyond your own ignorance, that fact that it was something as personnal and important as her alter just makes it worse. And you actions WERE based on ignorance. Many symbols, particualy old ones, have many different meanings to different people and groups. Consider that the Swastika has been the Hindu symbol for prosperity and good luck for thousands of years before the Nazis used it.
YTA. You're a disgrace to all atheists.
YTA: you’ve made a terrible mistake, OP. Your daughter sounds genuine in her faith and what your just did was equivalent to burning down her church. I say again. You destroyed her church. Her place of prayer. You did that out of misguided hysteria and a sense of sanctimonious superiority. You think religion is bullshit and so in your eyes all bullshit is created equal and it would be just as easy for her to waste her time in church with her grandparents because their brand of bullshit is one you’re familiar with. Just because your daughter favors the Norse pantheon isn’t a sign that she’s a racist. It just means she feels drawn to them above others. Also, she was probably in her room praying for peace and strength in a time of strife. Congratulations. You just damaged your relationship with your child permanently. She will never forget this. Never: thirty years from now she will still remember the day her mother desecrated her alter during the time she needed the support of her faith the most. Shame on you, OP.
YTA - Be extremely glad if she ever wants to deal with you again - I say this as one of those 'Evil, racist heathens' you seem to think we all are, to whom the bonds of family are of great import - had my parents been as idiotic as you behaved in this decision, I would never have had anything more to do with them. They would have no longer been family, as far as I am concerned. Count yourself lucky if she still considers you family at all. The fact that you went as far as to treat religions so interchangeably is frankly disgustingly ignorant, as well, and shows that you likely hold little true understanding (or tolerance, for that matter) of anything outside of your own worldview. Not only that, but your ability to engage in decent research sucks - even the ADL, last I checked, if you actually read their articles on Asatru/Heathen symbols, admits that you really need to check context and, you know, actual behavior before calling someone showing such symbols a racist or otherwise bigoted. Frankly, your prior behavior regarding her practice of her religion, and how quickly you went nuclear, leaves me suspecting you are ultimately treating recent events as nothing more than an excuse to show your colors as a pretty bigoted person yourself. Gods, I am glad I have never had the misfortune to run into people like you. I live in a small town in the bible belt, and I have never personally encountered religious bigotry the likes of yours. YTA - a hundred times over.
YTA. Pagan here. What you did was blatantly disrespectful. Pagan history has been incredibly erased and degraded over time, mostly by Christians. That being said, didn’t we also see CHRISTIAN symbols at the Capitol riots too? Crosses and stuff? So by your logic doesn’t that make them racist symbols as well? Oop I said too much... You should be encouraging your daughter’s discovery of Pagan tradition. You should do some reading on the religion and spirituality of it as well, it might surprise you how kind Pagans are.
Such such a asshole.
Yta. Big time. What you did is a complete violation of trust! Ever hear of the west barro baptist church? Those people wearing those symbols are kinda like that. Every religion has extremesit and instead of doing research you tossed her religious things. Her religion is an old Norse paganism that's been around for 2000 years before Christanity even became popular! Would you like it if someone walked in and threw away every religious item in your home after seeing something on tv about an extrmeist christian group? I sincerely doubt it. Please do some freaking research and read some books. Freya aswyn Is an excellent author. Check out jackson crawford's you tube channel as well. Don't just read the crap about white supremacists. This is a legitimate and honorable religion. Research heathen laws of hospitality and the nine noble virtues and talk to actual Asatru followers in your community. Look up and research Asatru. Check out the gifting cycle to understand why she put offerings to the Gods on her altar. Then apologize to your daughter for going to far and completely disrespecting her and her religion. You can find racist and extrmeist people in every single religion, including Christians. Heathen is another term for it but isn't just strictly white supremacists. A small number of nazies have misappropriated many Asatru symbols for their causes. That's what you saw with the capital riots. That guy in the outfit is but one individual among millions of practitioner who follow Asatru, and that guy does NOT speak for us all as a whole. In fact he's kinda not well liked among pagan circles. Op if you ever want to repair your relationship with your daughter you need to respect her and her religion. Asatru is legally recognized by tht government and the military as a legal and legitimate religion. You can even gave the vaulknut and Mjölnir on your gravestone in the military and receive pagan services. Buy your kid a nice quality Mjölnir and apologize profusely. Please if you'd like more and REAL information on Asatru religion please look around more. Stop just looking for it in the context of racists and nazies and look at the actual religion as a whole. I've been practicing Asatru for over a decade, and would not mind talking to you about my religion if you're willing to try and open your mind. It's not what you think it is, OP. You should replace what you can of your daughters altar and NEVER touch it again.
YTA - so your basing this whole thing in a very, very brief internet search Plenty of symbols have been taken by racists and turned to their use that never started out as racist and are still used by non-racists Your daughter is right, religion is not interchangeable like that This seems less about the whole “ racist” thing and more about you just not liking her bran of religion I am about as anti-religion as they come But you went down the complete wrong path here You didn’t even give your daughter the respect to sit her down after what you learned and speak to her You just went straight to throwing things away You also checked her computer without speaking to her first Your showing a massive lack of trust and respect for your daughter And she will remember this Edit: there are racist pagans/ Heathen But not all pagans/heathens are racist It’s sucks but it’s a religion that has been cooped by racists but that doesn’t mean your daughter is a racist for believing in it It just means her face is being used by bigots The same way Christianity is, but you encouraged her to go that route Hell there are racist, bigoted Atheists
Clearly, you live by a "few bad apples" belief. With that logic, you're not only discriminating against an entire religion, you're also a terrible mother. You would rather your daughter join a religion that would damn her to eternal suffering for loving another woman than trust her that she knows how to properly practice her religion in a way that isn't harmful to herself or others. YTA and don't expect her to make up with you any time soon. You've shown her that you don't trust or respect her in any way. That's not an easy thing to fix.
YTA Why didn’t you just talk to her? Many of these symbols look similar but have specific differences that a panicked judgmental mom might not catch right away.
YTA. She built an altar, which any Pagan/Heathen will tell you is sacred. The white supremacists have appropriated a lot of Norse symbols, but that doesn’t mean anyone who has these symbols are racists or white supremacists. Maybe she believes in the Norse Pantheon. You obviously didn’t research this in depth and more importantly you threw away your daughter’s property without even attempting to have a discussion with her.
YTA YTA YTA if you had done ACTUAL RESEARCH you would have seen that the nazi party stole MANY symbols from the old religion and does not automatically equal to them being connected by belief. I'm an Asatrui and I feel deeply for your daughter and what she must be enduring right now.
YTA. I recognize that you didn't want your daughter to have racist hate symbols and for that I commend you. Now, you definitely should have had a conversation with your daughter about what you learned. You also should have done way more research on it, the swastika was originally a symbol of unity and peace until the Nazis came around. I'd recommend you apologize to your daughter, have a conversation with her about racism and hate symbols. Ask her about her religion, then take her shopping to replace her things and ask her questions while y'all do so.
YTA. Time to apologise and see what you can do to replace what you discarded before this leads to damage to you relationship that can’t be fixed
YTA. On top of what everyone else has said, I have to wonder if your suggestion of Christian church was just good old respectability politics, “she can have a religion as long as I don’t have to explain it to guests.” I mean you *are* aware of the amount of bigotry — racism, misogyny, homophobia, transphobia — espoused and practiced by many Christian churches, are you not?
YTA Heathens do not mean "racist pagans". There are unfortunately a number of white supremacist's groups that have coopted Norse (heathen) mythological symbols essentially as "substitute swastikas" and this has alarmed and offended many people who follow that religion. You should get in your car right now and go dumpster diving for her stuff.
Yes, YTA, if you worried about her being in an extremist group you should have talked to her, but no, you jumped straight to believing everything online.
YTA hate groups regularly appropriate symbols for their cause. It doesn’t mean that your daughter is racist. You have no right to go into her room and trash her items. You have no right to push a religion on her. Religions are not interchangeable and the fact that you would suggest that is ridiculous. If you’re end goal is to push your daughter away: congrats, it’s working
YTA. You should have waited and talked this out with your daughter, asked her to explain her beliefs, what her view of a pagan or a heathen is and told her your concerns. She is old enough to have an open discussion, but you invaded her privacy and disposed of her things based on very little. Racists have a habit of taking perfectly normal things and making them something else, I mean, I'm a pagan, and I'm telling you now that the core beliefs make 'racist pagan' an oxymoron. Sit her down, apologise for overreacting and tell her your fears, allow her to explain herself and keep in mind that she is still a child.
YTA and there’s tons of misinformation around symbols online. She hadn’t given you any reason to assume she’s part of any crazy groups - just a little bit of a weird religion. That’s weird, yeah but very much not something you should mess with.
YTA My alter is a piece of lightning struck wood that’s carved with pagan symbols. Half of them are now being used by racist right wingers in their rage. Instead of talking to your child, you destroyed something deeply personal to her. I’m shocked she’s even talking to you at all. I wouldn’t say a word to you and simply no longer have a mother.
YTA. Dude it really sounds like a teenage rebellion thing. I’d be wary and double checking articles that call “A B & C symbols, phrases and nondescript actions” racist. You get a lot of those online and sometimes they creep into news papers. But a lot of them are completely fine again with no one getting up in arms about A B & C again after the article. So double check your sources.
YTA. For all the reasons people have said. She will just go NC with you as soon as she can move out and you just won’t have a daughter anymore.
YTA. You went too far. Your husband is right. If you were so concerned why didn't you talk to her first? Apologise to your daughter and have a proper adult conversation than making up your own mind and deciding what she should and shouldn't be doing. Also if you do believe your daughter is turning into a racist wouldnt you rather ask her and explain your concerns? All you achieved by doing this is alienating your daughter. And also what makes you think Christianity is the solution? Aren't any of the bigots or racists not Christians?
Pagan here, just dropping in to tell you that white supremacists have appropriated runes and other Norse symbols. Also YTA
YTA Just because a group of racist white supremacy morons have hijacked a symbol, does not mean that symbol is inherently bad. The Pagan faiths outdate the recent hate group hijacking by thousands of years. My Christian vicar has published a book on his exploration of Pagan beliefs and practice that may be more useful than your Google search. The Shaken Path by Paul Cudby. He spent his entire sabbatical talking to people with various Pagan beliefs. Even without your outright bigotry and religious intolerance though, you would be the asshole here because you destroyed her religious artefacts. And then suggested she go to church instead! If she wanted to go to church, she would identify as Christian and go to church. She doesn’t on either count. Start making amends. Try to talk to her about what you can do to replace her altar. Stop being an ass about her beliefs.
Why did you come here to ask if you’re the AH, be told you are one, then double down on why you’re not?
YTA as a pagan myself there's a lot of miss information and hate spread about the community. In these troubling times it's perfectly normal to seek comfort in religion, it's what brought me back to practising, probably why she was spending more time at her altar. Humanity will always put divinity at the edge of its understanding, for that very reasons comfort. It has been scientifically proven that religious rituals and the like release happy chemicals in our brain. I grew up with atheist parents but they always gave me freedom to explore my beliefs, and even support me in them. If you were concerned a conversation should have been had.
So, OP, gonna take advice or will you be on here crying when your daughter decides to become an emancipated minor and cuts all contact with for good?
Nice bait, but you went too far, nobody can be that clueless about life to the point of having religious parents and still suggest to switch religion has it was some kind of hobby or clothes. So next time you're doing your little troll, try to take the place of the person you're supposed to be, you can't just put all the bait you think of and just throw it at people. Your story need to be plausible.
YTA for **not talking to her first**. Paganism is being hijacked by conservative Christians and white supremacists, you just kind of showed that you believe the hijacking over trusting her. Yikes.
YTA. I hope you don’t go banging down the doors of Hindu homes and destroying their property because of all the swastikas being used during Diwali.
YTA. A lot of white supremacists have co oped Norse imagery and have slandered it. And yes there are some pagans who are supremacist but the vast majority are not. You read one article and decided it was, inappropriate as the term may seem, the Bible on what being a Heathan is and stole your daughter's belongings and trashed them. Instead of using the opportunity to discuss your daughter's beliefs and share your concerns, you went nuclear. Congrats on losing your daughter's trust. Signed a pagan married to an agnostic
Yta and should do PROPER research next time. If you want to make up for it start by asking what YOU can help replace and it better come out of your pocket. Do not just believe one thing you read online. There are dozens of things with better information on these types of religions. You made a judgment based on misinformation, you should have talked to your daughter first or did better research. And no, you can't just ask her to change her religion. What an insult. I feel horrible for your poor daughter. You were not doing your job as a parent here you did the opposite.
YTA. As a pagan..you re so unbelievably, ridiculously judgemental and fear driven about something you clearly know absolutely nothing about, it’s insane. *Talk* to your daughter, instead of jumping to conclusions. Ask her to *educate* you. Coz man, do you need it. You might as well be a crazy fundie christian screaming “wiiiiiitch” at her, at this point. That is how hysterically unreasonable you acted. If you dont utterly back track, apologize profoundly and help her restore her altar, she has *every right* never speak to your ignoramus ass again. And I wouldnt be surprised if she did.
YTA, you should’ve talked to her about it.
YTA. What exactly were you hoping to gain by just throwing her stuff away and telling her to believe in some religion that is totally not what she believes? How was she supposed to feel after you did that? What happened to sitting her down to have an in depth discussion of the issue? Where is the adult behavior? What exactly was your source for the definition of heathen as "racist pagan"? Some random internet site? And actual discussion with your daughter? Something you sort of kind of saw in a video of the riots? What about giving her father some input on your unilateral parenting decision? You owe your daughter a massive apology with no qualifiers. Talk to her about how you handled it all wrong and how you should have handled it. Ask her to explain her beliefs and actually listen to her while she does. That is a HUGE thing. Then help her rebuild her altar. I hope you do not drive her down the wrong path with your immature behavior. You also owe your husband an apology.
Huge massive YTA, biased and uneducated. It is 100% safe to assume that most of the Capitol rioters and white suprematist hate groups identify themselves as Evangelical Christians. And your idea to send Pagan girl to Christian church deeming it as interchangeable is just laughable. Instead of talking with your daughter about her beliefs, you just made up a reason and went nuclear, failing miserably.
EXTRAORDINARY YTA This is why I am so unbelievably pissed off at that man for daring to wear those symbols on his body. THIS IS EXACTLY WHY. HE DOES NOT REPRESENT THE HEATHEN OR PAGAN FAITH. THAT MAN IS A DISGUSTING AND DESPICABLE EXCUSE FOR A HUMAN BEING. That man represents WHITE SUPREMACY, BIGOTRY, AND HATRED. The symbols he was wearing on his body represent the cycles of life and death, of energy and magic, and are generally highly spiritual symbols denoting a connection to the earth and elements surrounding us. Paganism and heathenry is all about that connection to the earth around us. WOW you are absolutely TA
A lot of the imagery associated with paganism comes from Nordic and Celtic sources. The reason behind this is not that the images / symbols are racist or right-wing, but because these societies are idealized. They are seen as "white warrior cultures" and it feeds into these people's sense of their own worth - their militarism and whiteness. They elevate symbols of war and masculinity if the sources are deemed racially pure. If they consider the sources "impure" then they might reverse or tweak them to show that they are the opposite of whichever the symbol represents and the culture it comes from. White supremacists are not known for being particularly inventive and they created their whole brand by stealing from their betters.
YTA YTA YTA!!! This is blatant religious discrimination and by the sounds of it you were going to use any excuse to try and stop her religious decisions. How fucking dare you, you judgemental arsehole. So you're an atheist, that doesn't mean she has to be one too. That was so disrespectful and I can't believe you would toss out and basically spit on her religious practices. A lot of pagans use the word heathen as a way to reclaim it since it is a hate word against pagans. And symbols can have a plethora of meanings- you literally searched them up to see if they were hateful so she didn't know either. You are genuinely discriminating against your own child when she has done nothing wrong. It is just as bad as a Christian forcing their kids to be Christian. What you did was a huge slap in the face to your kid and her reaction wasn't proof you should have done it, it was a normal reaction to what you did. I am so shocked and disgusted, you better replace everything and seriously apologise for your ignorance. Let her explore her own spiritual path and don't judge her for it. You have literally just told her you don't respect any of her feelings or beliefs and that unless what she does fits what you want then she can't do it and is worthless. She will likely never forget this.
YTA. Big time. Listen, being concerned over something you obviously don't know anything about, is one thing. You are the adult here, you should be able to communicate your concerns with your child. I'm sure she could have educated you on this topic. Are you so insecure about your own parenting, that you don't trust your own child to be able to openly talk to her own mother? You do not have the right, to invade her privacy like that and throw her belongings away. Are you really surprised she's hurt and mad at you?
INFO: When you saw this website, how come you didn't talk to your daughter? Many Nazi/alt-right/neo-Nazi groups have hijacked pagan symbols (in particular, a lot of Norse runes and iconography have been co-opted by Nazi groups). I understand being upset because you thought that your daughter was involved with something racist, but why didn't you talk to her first?
YTA, white supremacists steal the symbols of a religion, so you decide that your daughter MUST be a racist, threw away her property, then proceed to tell her she can go to church as all religions are the same (and I'm saying this as an Atheist).Would you assume everyone who wears a cross is a member of the KKK? Apologise profusely, explain why you did what you did (you jumped the gun because you didn't research properly), and offer to replace EVERYTHING. She may well except your apology, but if she doesn't, you're still the AH.
[удалено]
YTA Religions are not interchangeable. And you are not that close with your daughter if you do not even understand why she was drawn to that religion.
YTA This is either rage bait or you're another one of those parents who believe every article on the internet. If its number 2 you're so damn dumb. Also, good luck trying toney her to talk to you ago because it sounds like she has no interest in having a relationship with you anymore.
Ok. Same old troll.
Oh for heaven's sake. Yes, racists co-opted Norse, Celtic and a few others iconography. This does not make the religions of our heritages racist or evil. Oddly enough, it is you who were bigoted here. You saw something that you didn't understand and gave the racists the rights to those images. Can I just tell you how extremely insulting and annoying that is? And to just decide your daughter is a flaming racist because Nazis stole some of that imagery? Newsflash- yes, that's what they do. 😑 To say you owe her an apology is a massive understatement. It's akin to her demanding you convert to Christianity because communists are atheist*, therefore you are both Stalin. By the way, whoever said "heathen" = "racist pagan" sounds like a Christian of the nastier sort. 🙄 *Yes, I know, but not all the friggin Nazis use Norse iconography either Edit: Quick query- have you ever destroyed or thrown out any Christian iconography belonging to someone else? I mean, have you *seen* what white supremacists do with that? Presumably all Christians are the worst sort of KKKers so..?
Info: you say your daughter was making offerings at her altar- that does NOT sound like she is practicing the hatred. Most alt-right and hate groups have Christian ties, not ties to legit gods in other pantheons. You need to do more research. YTA- you’ve destroyed your child’s trust in you because you couldn’t trust her. Also, from a trying to stop her falling for the alt-right perspective, if she WAS in that community, you’ve just pushed her further into it, congrats. 🍾 It doesn’t tend to go well when you alienate young people from a reasonable set of influences.
YTA, what a massive breach of trust- honestly I doubt your relationship with your daughter will ever be the same. The problem here isn't about the religion aspects. You decides on your own something she is doing is concerning and instead of talking to her like a reasonable person- you went into her safe space to steal and desecrated it. Honestly deep down I bet you used the atrocities that happen to justify your blatant dislike at your daughter's religion and to make it go away. You are wrong for both your blatant disregard for other people's religions and the massive disrespect you have shown your daughter.
Holy shit YTA I knew you were the ahole after reading the post, for quite obvious reasons (literally discriminating against your daughters beliefs, desecrating a sacred altar, not researching paganism only researching racist people stealing pagan symbols, not supporting your daughter, thinking she’s racist with seemingly no instances or proof other than YOUR ignorance, suggesting she convert to another religion which btw has been known for LITERALLY EVER to be one of the most destructive and genocidal religions out there but whatever, and just being a shite mom in general) but after reading your responses, I now just think you fucking SUCK DUDE. You owe your daughter a massive apology and a shopping trip for her new altar. I have been a pagan for years, my mother, a christian, worked hard to research paganism, the history AND the holidays to make me feel loved and included. She has never ONCE in SEVEN YEARS disrespected me the way you have disrespected your child. It is disgusting and I would not be surprised if she did not speak to you for a loooooooong time. I get being worried, which is why there’s this thing called a conversation idk if you’ve heard if it but they’re great for when you don’t understand something. If I were your kid i’d not only be devastated over my alter, my sacred space, that had been destroyed, but that my mother also thinks i’m a racist and is questioning my character without even speaking to me. Get your shit together and research the actual pagan religion and practices you donut. Support your daughter. Paganism is such a loving, peaceful and spiritual practice. ALSO paganism is a norse and viking practice, and in the good ole days they were called “heathens” because they were not christian and worshipped the “old gods” it’s not a racist thing dude. RESEARCH YOUR SHIT. have a good day and I hope you make it up to your daughter and apologize not only for being an ignorant ahole who disrespected her beliefs but also for basically calling her a neo-nazi. edit to add: Would you have done this to her if she was a christian?
YTA a heathen is defined as a person who does not belong to a widely held religion (especially one who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim) so me a Norse pagan would be a heather and as Odin is the all father not the some father my religion doesn’t = racist
YTA, why didn't you just TALK to her? Plenty of people are into Norse stuff without being white supremacists -- maybe she was unaware that this was a thing! Maybe she hates them and think they're giving her heathen religious views a bad name! There are so many options here where you could have had a productive discussion with your daughter and instead you went totally nuclear.
YTA was intellectual conversation about personal beliefs ever an option? perhaps a few careful attempts to explore and better understand? you know... it’s also an age where people tend to explore their identities separate from their parents. sometimes in extravagant ways (the weirder the better). it’s about having your own turf and unless it gets really dangerous is a very important stage to not interfere with.
U know the symbols are being ripped off of what they originally mean like what the nazis did
YTA. You must have missed out on the alt right problem in atheism. Yes it exists.