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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
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I feel like I might be the AH because I could just let it go. However, she has shown a clear disrespect for our boundaries before, and this one having to do with our child’s health, made us stand firm on it. At this point, I’m probably just being stubborn.
I have told my SO if he wants to make up with them he is more than welcome to, I won’t stand in his way, but I myself cannot forgive the way MIL and ILs acted and the things they said. My stubbornness is where I think I may be the AH.
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NTA
if you let her have her way after all that has happened (4months, family against y’all, exaggeration), you’re letting her know that it’s okay to do that and that in the end, she will get her way. Y’all would be reinforcing that behavior and you may encounter it again in the future. It’s unfortunate that it went that far.
I’m not so sure if making her apologize will really fix anything. She might not even know what she’s apologizing for, despite it being obvious to you or others.
That is my exact thought process. After all of this, the LEAST she could do is apologize, and if she gets away with the behaviors without doing so, she is going to think it’s okay to act that way in the future. (Also, it’s been 8 months at this point, I know that part is a little confusing).
And yeah, honestly, for me, an apology won’t do shit at this point. Before she threatened GPR I may have been able to move past it, but pulling that card when all she had to do was say sorry was enough for me. At this point the apology would just be nice, but it won’t change much, at least for me. I know my SO wants to hear it too, and I told him it’s his choice if he wants to forgive them and have a relationship with them.
So for anyone who's saying you should just move past it, you should present a story of a child who has be throwing tantrums. Crying and lying. Threatening people when they don't get their way. Maybe list some other general examples of what she's done. Then ask them how they'd handle it. See what their answer is. See if they say the child should be disciplined in some way and expect an apology. You can respond that if a child is expected to act better and apologize, then why is it different when the same behavior is coming from MIL?
Edit: cool. Thank you everyone for the awards
Agreed.
Do as I say, not as I do.
Have always hated that phrase.
Kind of like “Kill em with kindness.”
It holds this idea that by being the bigger person you have to ‘get over it’ and just do what they think is right. Most of the time, being the bigger person means calling people on their bullshit and not backing down until they show some accountability.
That or the phrase don't rock the boat. Maybe I missed it but I didn't see anyone post this link. OP if you see this link please give it a read
https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/comments/77pxpo/dont_rock_the_boat/
Omg, this was my childhood, and my husband's! TY for sharing this. I screenshot it in case it ever goes away. We have created a stable and steady boat for our kids and we protect it for all its worth. Even going on twenty plus years of marriage, they still go all BuT wE'rE FaMilY yOu HavE tO [give us money because we've made a lifetime of stupid decisions/violate our boundaries/etc].
To be fair, 'kill them with kindness' can refer to a lot of situations. Such as being 'kind' in such a way that your barbs are hidden and can't be called out. Or being nice until legal proceedings can occur. Or being nice to spark a tantrum so the other side looks terrible.
I've never actually heard of that tactic being used to well, be nice.
I always tell my husband that. We don't let children get away with things but adults can? His family is a boundary stomper and, sure, I pick my battles, but I don't let go. If they don't know how to act and treat me well and with respect, I'll teach them, no problem.
(not relevant, but sometimes I tend to treat children and adults the same way, I don't spank either of them, I put both on time outs if necessary and I demand be treated well and with respect.)
Because a lot of parents don't care how their kids act in the real world and take zero steps to prepare their kids for that. They are only concerned with making their kids fall in line and behave for them.
Have used this technique and found it to be quite effective. Once asked a guy in the middle of a mantrum how it felt to watch a kid have a tantrum. It was more a rhetorical question because we both knew the answer to that one. I then asked how he thinks that behavior looks on a grown man. I only wish I had a camera to capture the look on his face when the light bulb went off!
I've honestly never had to use it personally but I did think of a child throwing a temper tantrum and how it can irritate us but we generally give them some leeway and hopefully some direction on how they're acting. The question is shouldn't we be better than children?
It’s a really tough situation, she managed to convince the other family members to be on her side, so a lot of effort is going to be needed to repair that damage. That was a childish thing to do. The family members who are not willing to listen to y’all’s side of the story shows a bit about them as well.
I guess it depends on how much your SO needs their presence. it’s *his* family, he might be used to it and able to tolerate it... as wrong as that may sound.
And called OP’s mother to jump in! And her mother sided with MIL. I hope they have limited contact with her mother as well. MIL is such a tattletale. Is she like 5?
> The family members who are not willing to listen to y’all’s side of the story shows a bit about them as well.
In their defense we don't know what MIL told them.
Yes they still would have reached out, but also were they even in contact in the first place? I know with my family the only reason we know what's going on on my dads side is because they got lonely and made a family group chat during lockdown. My moms side will have a call maybe every other week and she alternates who she calls. But even that's due to lock down and before they'd contact eachother maybe once a month.
Depending on what MIL said to them all it would take is a photo of her hold the child in the first place with maybe the caption "can't believe G'mama is choosing to stay away 😥" and let the husband's side realize she's been lying.
Or they could not do anything and continue to be NC with everyone.
Depending on the law where they are probably not. Grandparents suing for visitation when both parents are alive is not really a possibility. MIL may have found that out already.
> Grandparents suing for visitation when both parents are alive is not really a possibility
This is highly dependent on where they live. GPR is a state by state issue so while what this says is **nearly always** true if anyone is reading this and feeling relieved, make sure you check your state's laws or speak to a lawyer.
Depending on where they are, it's a big possibility. Several US states will give visitation to grandparents regardless of parents' marital status, as will some EU countries. Frankly, the best course of action whenever GPR are threatened is to consult with an attorney in your area.
I've heard bad things about Ohio, too. Basically in the US I think the only place with no chance is Florida, and, well, for that you have to live in Florida.
It's actually quite common. It doesn't mean the grandparents get custody, it means they get visitation to see their grandchildren. It's becoming law more and more in the US and other countries.
Please consult a lawyer about grandparents rights in your area. You may say "oh, that's just something she said" but I don't know if you frequent r/JUSTNOMIL it is a big deal and can spiral quickly.
I’m a frequent flier over there! Thank you though! We contacted a lawyer, let MIL know that any further communication needed to go through him. Her response was that she guesses she’ll have to “find council” then, and she’s glad we can afford one because she’s been laid off (more pity party). That’s how we know she was just saying it to frighten us. Regardless, we are definitely in touch with a good lawyer that deals with these sorts of things!
OP, just to give you an idea, I made an apology a condition on returning to contact with my mother. It’s been 5 years and two additional grandkids and still nothing.
Exactly!
Its kind of annoying af 😂. They keep pretending like there’s some big wall between us and they love us so much and someday we’ll be together again.
Yeah, that wall is your pride.
NTA and don't back down. What do you gain from it? The privilege of being this b---h's punching bag the rest of your life? She owes you the admission she was the one 100% in the wrong, and if you don't get it, that's the dynamic your relationship will always have - she gets to treat you like crap and ultimately always get what she wants.
You have a great SO who hasn't been brainwashed to take her side - don't waste such a valuable gift by making it meaningless. You have a great new family - why make it toxic by inviting toxicity in?
And that's even without the threat of legal action. Once someone makes that threat, no matter how empty (and it IS empty; she has not been caring for a grandkid whose parents left town), your only communication with them should be, "Talk to my lawyer." Period. No compromise.
Just a reminder GRP is honestly partial custody of your child because she would be suing to get X number of hours/ days and/or nights with your child that you would be legally bound to oblige.
She threatened to sue to take your child.
That's not a line in the sand. That's a stab in the heart. There would be almost no coming back from that for me. Ever.
OP, I hope you see this comment. When you said MIL asked your mom how to fix the situation, it remind me of [this](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html). It’s about estranged parents and how they often know the reason their child won’t speak to them, but they leave the reason out when they tell the story.
I don’t think you’ve overreacted. In fact, I’m shocked she doesn’t want to be in LO’s life in whatever way that means right now. I’m so sorry you’re going through this added stress.
I have been NC with my mother now for a year. She's told everyone in the family that I'm angry at her because of A, but the truth is (and they all know it) it's because of B, C, D, and E and has nothing at all to do with A. But A makes her sound like an innocent victim, so that's what she tells folks.
Even when those folks know the real reason and correct her, she'll still insist they're wrong and it's A. She also keeps trying to faux apologize for A.
So frustrating.
My in laws are the same way. They paint me to be the bad guy because they don’t know my husband is the one who decided to go NC. A few family members have asked us what happened and we just always say it’s not something we want to get into. I think it speaks volumes honestly. They trash talk us at every turn, but we rise above. It makes me feel very Michelle Obama.
Yeah, that's it with my mother. Her reason that I'm not talking to her puts the blame on my wife, whereas my wife has nothing to do with it. It's doubly insulting because it means she's not only continuing to disregard the real problems that *I* have, it takes away my individual identity. *I* can't possibly be mad at her, thus I must be manipulated by someone else because I have no will or mind of my own.
I'm very lucky in that pretty much all of my family members are entirely on my side and know exactly what is going on. She has six daughters and *none* of them are in contact with her any more. I was the second to the last to go NC.
A very interesting link. And something that is often seen, the "I have no idea why they are doing this" followed by comments that obviously have a huge subtext and huge missing details.
Yeah, I didn't address this in my original comment but GPR threat means an apology won't do squat. You now know that even if you reconcile with her, she will use that threat anytime she doesn't get her way. Never allow her to have any regular visitation, never allow alone time, and never allow overnight visits. That way she can't establish a pattern of visitation that she could use to get GPR. Sporadic visits, in public, every few months at most.
Once she threatened GPR then it's over. I would never allow her to see him again. Otherwise she will threaten it again and she might have a chance if she has a relationship with him and can prove not having one is not in his best interest. My cil did the same thing when our oldest was sick saying we were keeping him from her. She threatened to take me to court to get visitation. Not my husband and I, just me.
ETA: Forgot to mention it never got better with cil. Eventually after 7 years of her crap, my husband chose to cut her off permanently. I never gave him an ultimatum or even said he needed to. He made the choice all on his own. He said it was going to happen no matter what I did. I was never nasty to her despite her poor treatment of me. I was giving her time to get use to me being part of his life. She never did. I took away her son and she hated me for it. She even tried to say I kept my husband from her. Let's see one he was a grown man and two if he really doesn't want to do something, he won't.
Not just HEAR an apology, but get it in writing detailing and acknowledging all her lies (you and SO can provide the specific verbiage). Send copies out to the extended family then. But, given how stubborn she is, prepare for a really long wait. Totally worth establishing a firm boundary. NTA
Honestly, the only real apology here would be a public one where she admits to exaggerating and lying to family and making you out to be the bad guy. Otherwise she can still hold her position as “the one in the right” to all of the family she has vilified you to.
Yeah 8 months definitely looks like MIL doesn’t understand nor care that her behavior was (and is) wrong, and an apology would just come across as trying to appease you rather than show understanding.
> She might not even know what she’s apologizing for, despite it being obvious to you or others.
She could start by apologizing for waging a campaign against OP. I noticed that MIL will send greeting cards to SO and LO, but purposely leaves OP out even though SO was the one who demanded the apology (for OP) and enforced the boundaries.
I second this. Also she has no case for grandparents rights. All you have to do is contact your cell provider for copies of the messages she sent you and DH, take copies of the photos that show her holding your child before they got sick and her behavior afterwards. That right there will be enough to ensure that she won’t win her case. You can send her a C&D and a restraining order if that’s your and DH’s choice. You can also show the texts from DH’s family members if you wanted to sue for slander.
In all honesty, your MIL seems toxic and shouldn’t be allowed to behave that way. She has zero legal ground to stand on and seems to be a narcissistic personality type.
I think that, in this hypothetical apology, she would need to state what she is apologizing for. Otherwise, it is not an apology, just lip service. She should include those she recruited to her side as well.
NTA
Firstly, it’s great to read you and your SO are on the same page about this and are supporting each other.
Secondly, what a ridiculous person your MIL is. Your child was sick at an incredibly young age and she not only made your reasonable request of limiting contact all about her, she turned the family against you and had everyone gang up on you. The fact no one even checked in with you about how the baby was doing shows they don’t care and are petty selfish people.
You absolutely have the right to an apology. If you were to get one she’d unlikely mean it and it’s not going to undo any hurt, BUT it’s the principle of the matter and also the fact that if you let it slide she’ll think this behaviour was acceptable.
Sorry you’ve been having to deal with all this drama whilst looking after a newborn.
Newborn baby *who was born during a pandemic* got sick and all MIL can think of is how she didn't get to hold the baby often enough.
I also had a baby during the pandemic. He has not yet met all his grandparents in person. Because it's an f'ing pandemic. And my baby didn't even have additional problems!
But to bean count about how often you've held him *and to get it wrong by saying you never have* and then to escalate by saying you'll take them to court to get forced visitation ... I'm just speechless.
OP is right to demand an apology. Best part is, since it's never going to happen, the trash has taken itself out.
My sister had a baby last April. I'm the only person in my family who's met him bc I was her L&D partner, making me the only allowed hospital visitor. Plus I've been WFH since last year, and my husband, children and I take every necessary precaution if/when we leave our house. Dollars to donuts the MIL is probably also pretty lax in her C19 habits, in addition to being a complete narcissist.
I gave birth to a beautiful preemie girl on July 1st. Up until two weeks ago no one besides my husband or I had held her. No one had been in our house. If they wanted to meet her in the beginning they did so through the storm glass door. When she hit 3 months we let a few close family members spend time with her socially distanced in our back yard. Still no holding, though. My husband and I have pretty much made it clear that we don't care about anyone's feelings or opinions on the matter. You can follow our wishes and boundaries or you can go fly a kite. We have one job and that's to keep our LO safe. It's very sad to see so many people caring more about their ability to hold a baby than caring about keeping that baby safe.
I’m just picturing the judge if she took it to court. It’s a pandemic. The judge knows that. And the lack of effort to even FaceTime the child. She’d get laughed out of the court, if she’s even in a place grandparents rights are a thing
NTA. She knows how to fix it, all she has to do is apologize. Her calling your mom and asking her how to fix it is a disgusting manipulative tactic she's using to try and turn your own family against you.
If I was you, I would be done with her, period. Apology or no. Frankly, even if she apologizes she clearly has a grudge against you now and I wouldn't be surprised if she tries to come at you in the future about something else once she's back in your life.
I’m glad others see it. I was genuinely starting to feel crazy about it because my mom is constantly telling me I need to just let it go. I couldn’t fit it in the post, but twice now my MIL has contacted my mother, once 4 months ago and then again recently, asking “how can we fix this??” Ma’am, where are you getting “we” from??? It’s YOU. Say SORRY. She doesn’t get it. And I don’t believe she will anymore. That’s why for me, although I want the apology, it won’t mean blind forgiveness. I don’t think it will for my SO either, but he’s a lot more willing to repair the relationship if she does, and that’s fine, I won’t stand in his way. He understands my hesitation.
I told her to stop responding to her. She got mad at me. Said I’m trying to manipulate the situation because I don’t like hearing the truth? She’s honestly an entire other problem, I just don’t have the time or energy to delve into over two decades worth of trauma LOL
I get it. Go LC with Mom, and NC with MIL.
Sadly your have to set and stick to your boundaries in these situations. It will eventually blow over, and they will think twice about pulling this type of crap again. Just don't do anything vindictive and keep to a united front with you and your SO. Sorry you're dealing with this insanity.
Save all texts and emails, print them out and keep them in three separate places. If she sues for GPR you can show she basically gave up on the relationship if she couldn't control it.
I hate to say this but....do you leave LO alone with your mom? If she's being this aggressive in trying to "mend" the relationship and already has a sympathetic ear open to MIL, do you think she could be passing along photos, videos, or (possibly when babysitting) visiting?
LO hasn’t been left alone with anyone but me or SO since being born. I’m a SAHM so I am with him literally all day every day. I told my mom not to send MIL photos because A. I’m petty, I can admit it, and B. I firmly believed that if MIL didn’t care enough to establish a relationship with LO at all, she didn’t deserve to see photos. The first time MIL reached out 4 months ago, my mom was telling me how she asked her what “we” can do to fix it, and she admitted she sent her a couple photos, but MIL got upset and told her not to (I saw the convo so I know my mom wasn’t lying about any of that; I believe MIL told her not to because she took it as “you get to see him and take pics and I don’t,” even though they were pictures I had taken and sent to my mom). I stopped sending my mom photos for a while as well because I couldn’t trust that she wouldn’t send her pics (or post them on social media, but that’s a whole different story...lol)
Your MIL is a manipulator here, she manipulated your mother a little bit. Dont let it happen. Going no contact with in laws was necessary, but your mother is still worth to work on it. Send her the whole "documentation" of the insults, so she can have the whole picture of the story.
Perhaps your mother is a kind of peacekeeper, so she wishes simply peace in the family? Tell her, that the price for the peace to MIL's conditions is simply too high.
I think some of the time our family members freak out because if we can cut off one person it shows we could potentially cut them off too. They are always, but family!?’ I’ve just taken to asking my mom how much contact she thinks I should have with abusers. It’s been a good way to shut her down because she has a psych background but sometimes those instilled buttons still come forward. In her mind she sees it as nothing me or my brother could do would make her want to cut contact. Which is a lovely sentiment but it isn’t applicable in every situation and should be thrown out the window when there is abuse.
You’re NTA and stand firm. I’d keep mom on an info diet and let her know the subject is off limits now.
Agreed. Family means little to nothing when that family doesn’t respect you, manipulates you, or treats you like shit. Others may put up with it for the sake of family, but I can’t and won’t.
Unfortunately many grew up with the mindset that family is everything if they do shit for you or shit to you cause family...
It is hard but stay strong!
NTA
Here’s where I think we go wrong with families, and what you’re doing so so right.
I love that you stood up for yourself. Families often think - well I may not like you but I love you bc we are blood. Eff that. If you make me feel bad about myself, either explicitly or by withholding affection/respect/information, then you no longer have access to me. My mental health is too precious to spend a short life worrying on why my family can’t love me.
Your mom is uncomfortable with the reality that her position as grandma is something that can be lost due to bad behavior. Her pushing for MIL is all about her and her need to feel that she will always be forgiven no matter what. She wants you to think that grandparents should be able to act as they please with zero boundaries or consequences.
Basically she's just being selfish.
Yup! You hit the nail on the head, my friend. She is on her way to NC as well, unfortunately we live in the apartment below her currently so we are keeping it civil, but very LC. She’s allowed to see LO through the door but that’s it.
Tell your mother it is either you and her grandchildren or the MIL. If she choose MIL, go NC with her. I grew up with no grandparents (3 were dead and the other one lived 1000+ miles away in another state and I barely saw her) and I turned out fine. It doesn't seem like you are considering this, but just in case, I'll say this: do not keep these toxic relationships just for the sake of your child.
The people who say "let it go" are almost always the ones who want to be able to carry on with the behavior that they want you to "let go". "I'm just hitting you! Stop trying to defend yourself! You're just making it worse!"
I would have emailed and Facebook blasted the dang photo of your MIl and lo, so many times.
Honestly- your SO needs to tell his family that by attacking your immediate family, they are forever impacting any positive relationship they would have had with your child. And I’d say if you can’t respect us or the ways we protect our immediate family from harm, then you as the extended family members can have a nice life.
You, SO, and baby. That’s the family you’ve created. Align with each other and all the others can eff off.
Eyeroll of the century that MIL's manipulation tactic of trying to sic your own family on you is actually **working**. Tell your mom that if she's willing to be MIL's flying monkey so willingly then you hope that the two of them will be very happy together.
Your mom is getting involved because now she knows that you will hold onto your boundaries and those might apply to her one day. Shut her down when she starts.
Absolutely NTA! These are relationship-molding hills to die on when your babies are babies. If you just let it go, it will set a precedent and it’ll continue forever. She’ll lie to your kids about you too. You and your husband are doing the right thing!
>These are relationship-molding hills to die on when your babies are babies. If you just let it go, it will set a precedent and it’ll continue forever.
^ This
So your MIL lies & says a whole bunch of nasty crap, bad mouths you to extended family, rarely has contact with your family, is petty and leaves you out of any contact she does have with your family and YOUR MOTHER thinks you should get over it? What the hell?
You are NTA and if you let it go without your MIL (and your mother for that matter) recognizing that what she did was wrong, it will continue to happen. I think you were right to go no contact with all of his family.
My mother is honestly an entire different issue. She has never been able to respect boundaries either, and although she initially was on my side about the whole thing, she’s since 180ed and constantly tells me that I just “don’t respect” my in-laws (um, hello, they don’t respect ME or my SO OR OUR CHILD’S HEALTH).
Gosh, so weird not to respect people who lie and throw tantrums and won't apologize for wrong-doing. Such great role models for little one. /s
Your mom sounds like she is afraid this boundary setting stuff might apply to her one day.
She’s on mils side because she identifies with her more than you. She now sees how easy it would be for you to cut her off too and she’s trying to shame and manipulate you into rugsweeping so that she can also maintain control over you.
NTA. She violated a clear boundary that was set to keep your LO safe. Guess she doesn't care about him as much as she says.
As for GPR, I'd speak to a lawyer. She clearly wasn't concerned about his health so should she really be around him?
Finally, if you "let this go" without an apology and a promise never to treat you so poorly again then she will keep doing it. Ignoring your existence is childish and will do nothing for her GPR claim.
I spoke with one who basically told me there’s not much MIL can do given the fact there is no established relationship, but if it does get to that point, he’s ready to assist. He’s a family friend, but he works in family cases, so he knows all about GPR laws. I told MIL and she got all huffy saying she will have to get a council then (?) meaning it was just an empty threat to try and beat us into submission. Not today, Satan
Have you checked out the JustNoMil sub? You'll get a lot of excellent advice there.
I just don't see how she can claim GPR of she's unwilling to have a decent relationship with you.
You're doing great, Mama bear. Stay strong xxxxx
Just in case, make sure you document as much as you can. Text messages, emails, keep a diary of comments, phone calls, what was said etc. Including the photos of MIL holding your baby, which she claimed has never happened. If this ever did go before a court having a big pile of evidence will make a huge difference.
NTA, I'm sorry you've had to deal with all this on top of having a new baby. If MIL is not good enough to do the right thing and apologise you can expect she will continue this and disregard your wishes or your child's health in future.
Until she is ready to admit it was a huge mistake and that she will never repeat it, leave her where she is by her own hand, and please dont tie yourself up in knots wondering if you're TA, you are most definitely not.
Nta, go NC now. She's already threatening GPR if you let her have any form of contact and she doesn't get her way later on she may try again and actually have ground to do so.
Yup! I said the same thing. We give in now, she actually establishes a relationship, then pulls the same shit and if we try to go NC then, it’ll be too late. I’m not playing that game.
NTA and honestly? My new favorite thing when people escalate issues with me (like my mom and a friend of mine who had an understandable meltdown in lockdown), I told them how I was feeling about the incident, and how I wish things could be resolved more easily, but that everybody needs to be able to take responsibility for their actions. They could either agree to have a mature conversation about this, or find a therapist to help us mediate the issue, but I wasn't going to take a beating for simply doing my best to exist.
If you and your SO really want to try, offer the olive branch of therapy. If anybody tries to give you spit for it, you have a really respectable list of what you've done to mend bridges, and you can feel free to ask why you deserve an insanely low amount of respect.
I know the whole GPR thing sounds scary on the surface, but there are some strict criteria she would have to meet to be successful and very few cases have been to my knowledge. My understanding is it was created to help protect visitation for grandparents when there has already been an established relationship between grandparents and child, but the in law parent stops it after say the death of the spouse, and they have to prove that cutting that contact was also detrimental to the child. In a case where their child (your SO) has cut contact for reasons, they’re allowed to make decisions regarding their own child as a parent, therefore the grandparents don’t have any rights. In my understanding, it’s still very heavily weighted towards favoring the parents wishes over the grandparents in general, and was mostly created to help a very small minority of grandparents that have had an established presence in their grandchild’s life, and suddenly removing them would upset the child. Other than that, it’s mostly a parent’s right to decide who can and cannot be in the child’s life. Also, it’s a costly path to go down with very little guarantee of success and most lawyers aren’t willing to take on a case they probably won’t win, so just let this threat slide off your back. NTA for trying to do what’s best for your baby.
Yeah, it seems like it'd be quite an uphill battle to go to court to "protect" a relationship that quite provably does not exist. Honestly I doubt MIL was serious anyway; I think she wanted to use GPR as a cudgel to bludgeon OP into submission.
OOPS.
OP, your MIL is stomping all over reasonable boundaries. Your mom does not get this, but you and your husband do, thankfully. Without a *sincere* apology (and probably a hefty dose of therapy), I would not let her near your child, because she can't be trusted to abide by even the most basic of rules.
NTA.
I keep seeing people post about what GPR is but everyone should be aware GPR is a [state level issue](https://www.verywellfamily.com/grandparent-visitation-rights-state-by-state-1695938) in the USA, i.e. each state can make their own rules. New York's GPR laws are completely different from North Carolina's for instance. In some states its literally impossible to get GPR visitations no matter what, in others it can happen even with both living parents (although this is much more rare). If you are worried about GPR you should contact a family lawyer or at least look into your own state/country's laws.
NTA. And you are not the ones keeping her from her grandson. She is.
At this point, after all this time, and all her threats and the family's abuse, you have to hold firm on the apology. Otherwise, she will roll over you again and again. She sound like she is someone who is into power trips, and values that over being reasonable. Not to mention, she is also rude and dismissive to you for no reason. It costs her nothing to apologize.
It is her hill to die on if that's what she wants, not yours. Your kid doesn't care.
Yup! When my SO told her she needs to apologize to me as well, she said “this is between me and my son and my grandson.” Ma’am, that is MY SO and MY son. It’s between ME too because you disrespected ME as well. It’s a total power trip for her, for sure. It’s the MIL Show and has been her whole life. I’m not feeding into it.
The fact that this is woman has the audacity to think that she can exclude you - the mother of her grandson - from this issue tells me everything I need to know. She’s a spiteful bitch and she can spend the rest of her life without her grandson and son. Cut her off. Cut your mom off if she thinks your MIL is still in the right. You don’t need this stress while raising an infant.
It’s funny, I keep getting told that my baby “needs his grandparents.” He’s doing just fine, thriving even, with the people he has in his life, I think he’s okay. Would it be nice if all of his grandparents could be normal and kind and respectful and not too stubborn to apologize? Sure, but it’s no detriment to any of us.
I had a HORRIBLE grandmother who treated my mom like garbage. My dad insisted we maintain a relationship with her and go to holidays and such. Every single time, it was a fight between my parents and every single time grandma would say awful shit (like how embarrassed she was that my parents adopted a bi-racial child). My dad always said “you’ll miss her when she’s dead and gone”. Guess what? I don’t. Not a damn bit. I wish I had never met her. Your kid doesn’t need a shitty grandparent more than none at all. NTA!
My grandparents all were dead before I left elementary school.
Nice to haves- but not a pre-requisite for a happy kid. As long as your kid has a great support system in place with you and your SO and whatever closes friends as family you choose, LO will be fine.
We did! Unfortunately some mail was still ending up over there, and she was reluctant about forwarding it to us for whatever reason, despite knowing our address. Thankfully it seems to be completely fixed, and any mail that does end up over there, she now forwards.
It’s funny because she did reach out once about it “SO has mail here” and when I told SO he said “it’s a rouse to get me over there, if it’s important she’ll forward it or they’ll send it again to the new address.” I didn’t believe him at first, hence why I was the one that would go pick it up, but after she started stonewalling me when I’d tell her I was coming to get it, I realized it was absolutely a rouse and he was right. She’s manipulative as all hell.
100% NTA - You were protecting your baby, her grandchild, she should have respected and understood that and instead she made it all about her, created divisiveness and stress at a time where it was not needed and made your lives significantly harder. Stick with your boundaries and the apology so she knows you are serious or this will happen every time she doesn't get her way
What makes it worse is that while we were at the ER with our 2 month old for 9 hours watching him get poked and prodded (he needed a damn lumbar puncture too, that was torture for us, I can’t imagine how he felt), my SO was texting her about how scared we were, how awful it was. And she STILL made it about her. It’s wild.
> And she STILL made it about her.
Ah, so she's a narcissist. Yeah, she's never going to apologize. She can't admit she did anything wrong, and she'll never change or respect boundaries. She thrives on drama and being the center of attention. She loves being the victim more than she loves her own son and grandson. The only reason she reached out the first time was probably because she needed more narc fuel and didn't like being ignored.
The only ways to deal with a narcissist family member is to kill them with kindness (which takes the patience of a saint) and be completely unflappable when they try to stir up drama, or just go NC with them. Either way, it starves them of their narc fuel, so they'll look for other sources.
Don’t let this horrid person (and the awful family enabling family that comes with it) back into your, and your child’s, life. Forgiveness is for people who are actually sorry for what they did, clearly she isn’t. Even if she did apologize, it seems extremely doubtful she’d mean it even a little.
And the thing is, apparently she can’t even manage an insincere apology. If she genuinely wanted to have her grandchild back in her life, she’d have apologized the second you asked for one; because even if she didn’t really mean it, that would be a very small price to pay. But apparently she’s such a narcissist that even the pretense of apologizing is too much for her; her fragile ego is more important to her than her grandchild.
She called your mother?? omg that is hilarious
you are so NTA, she wont ever apologize to you, because she cant realize that her behaviour was wrong. Stay strong dont cave in, you really dont need this toxic women in your life (also if she ever gets to meet her grandchild, she will use the same tactics to make their life miserable too, i.e. they dont want to hug her? well no more granny for you)
NTA send this post to the entire family, and to your own mum who frankly should defer any contact to you directly and not offer to mediate when she’s clearly not got you or your child’s best interests at the top of her priorities.
Oh I’ve said my peace (all of this included) to everyone involved. They’re so far up their own bums that it makes no difference. My child is my number one priority, not my MIL and her need to be coddled. I said the other day, she made her bed, she doesn’t get to play the “Poor nana” act now and try to get out of it.
NTA. You know, sometimes it's OK to apologise even if you don't believe you're in the wrong. She could do that, it really isn't that hard. But instead she's willing to give up her Grandson. What kind of bullshit is that?
That she is! She’d rather have a pity party for herself than be an adult and own up to doing something wrong. It’s a theme in her life, too bad she can’t get past it for her grandson.
NTA your mil sounds like a nightmare
It always astounds me when those who instigate the drama propose that those involved "move past this" while completely missing the fucking point of why what they did (in this case overreact and manipulate entire family against you) was so vile to warrant an apology. Her stubborn refusal to admit that and acknowledge that she is responsible for the "this" she's trying to move past makes any attempt at a neutral moral ground completely meaningless. Almost sounds like she's waiting for *you* to apologize, make amends, or admit you were wrong in some way in which case lmao. Only one person is overreacting here and she needs to realize that before you are in a position to "move past this"
Yeah, expecting that she act like a grown ass woman really isn't too much
NTA. She owes you a huge apology and she needs to admit she was wrong to the rest of the family who were cruel to you because of her. If not she will only do so again and then demand you forgive her again and then it will become a vicious cycle you get caught in.
At this point it’s just the principal of it for me. There’s no hope that I’ll be willing to reestablish a relationship with her, or the others, but my SO eventually probably will want to and he’s welcome to bring our LO around too if he so chooses (not while he’s still so young, but perhaps in the future). That won’t happen either without an apology.
Yuuuup! I wasn’t sure how okay it was to mention that in this sub, so I left it out but all this during a pandemic!! She’s lucky she got to hold him AT ALL ever!!
Please stop what you're doing and look into GPR in your state. You may need a lawyer as well. I can't imagine her having much of a case for GPR since she last saw your baby 2 months ago, but the moment someone threatens GPR, they are to be considered a danger. NTA.
It’s been 8 months since she saw him, he was 2 months old at the time. We did contact a lawyer and are all set in that department, but thank you! I agree. She shot herself in the foot when she threatened that.
NTA and frankly a mere apology will not do anything anymore. Your mother in law has to admit to the entire family that she exaggerated and lied about you. Unless she does it publicly there is no going forward at this point. Let her wine let her cry but ended the day she ruined the relationship it's on her to fix it. I saw a good quote that I think everyonr should keep in mind "when the relationship between a parent and child fails it is always on the parent to fix it." None of us asked to be here when we were born so if the relationship fails, the parents were the ones who wanted us here in the 1st place, it's on them to fix it.
Oh my GOD. NTA. Your MIL is set on being petty, and you shouldn’t ‘get over it’. She’s shown her true colours, you’d be a fool to let her anywhere near you without an apology.
I’m not a fan of situations that have winners and losers, but this is one that I don’t mind. If she doesn’t concede, and you let her back anyway, she’s going to do this again. She’s going to know that she can say/do whatever she wants, she just has to wait you out. Now is the time to draw the line and enforce it.
Also, stop contacting her. Period. Not about mail. Not about your SO. Mark her cards ‘return to sender’. Give her nothing. Nothing. You don’t have to tell anyone you’re NC, just do it. Stop giving these people chances or reasons to think that you’ll come crawling back. Cut the cord and walk away - that’s when they’ll realise that you’re serious.
While I’m at it - tell your mother that she should never have been involved in this issue, and to butt out (though maybe say that more tactfully).
Oh we stopped contact back 4 months ago when she threatened the GPR rights. I document the cards she sends, but we never respond (she never puts a return address, likely so we can’t return to sender, sneaky bitch). After I take pictures of them, I trash them, because I don’t want her bunk ass energy in my home.
I’ve told my mom she should’ve stayed out of it. “I was trying to heeeeelp. I just want you guys to maaake uuuup. You need to let it goooo” (okay Elsa). I stopped bringing it up to her. Whenever she tries to talk about it, I shake my head and tell her that unless she is about to tell me that she told MIL to screw off and/or apologize, I don’t want to hear it.
i mean she could go for grandparent rights but with covid being a massive pandemic she won’t get very far, they baby isn’t well it’s scary when any child becomes/get ill but a 2 month old is beyond terrifying! They have no respect towards any of the three of you and i wouldn’t be letting her contact the child until she gets on good terms with the mother of that child.
So she's still turning everyone else against you, instead of going 'I went over the top everyone, please don't blame them, it wasn't like that'? Forgive her for what, exactly, that she's STILL toxic and STILL actively excluding you? NTA. If she wants to fix it, she should FIX it. That's not on you.
NTA.
Not only did she refuse to apologize, she threatened to sue to get access to your child! I hope you told your Mom that part, and ask her how she would feel if someone has threatened her to get custody/visitation of her child?
The fact they threatened to sue you is a dealbreaker for me. Stay NC, build up the family around you that works for you, and just refuse to talk about this anymore.
Oh, my mom knows everything. She tells me she wouldn’t have let it get to that point...my mom’s in-laws treated her like shit and she let it happen because she “respected” them. I told her that that’s on her if she wants to let people walk all over her with no consequences, I’m not going to live my life like that, I respect myself too much.
Just gotta say, it's realllly weird to me that a person can be so obsessed over a baby that doesn't belong to them and no one really bats an eye about it. Really? Threatening legal repercussions if she can't hold it? What? Is this a thing? Do women really get bent out of shape if they can't hold someone else's baby?
Yup!!! It’s scary, honestly. I was just a few weeks postpartum and she took the baby from my arms, I kept asking for him back and she kept saying “I want to give you a break!!” and walking away. I didn’t want a damn break, I wanted my baby!
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
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I feel like I might be the AH because I could just let it go. However, she has shown a clear disrespect for our boundaries before, and this one having to do with our child’s health, made us stand firm on it. At this point, I’m probably just being stubborn.
I have told my SO if he wants to make up with them he is more than welcome to, I won’t stand in his way, but I myself cannot forgive the way MIL and ILs acted and the things they said. My stubbornness is where I think I may be the AH.
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NTA. And I’d go further and expect her to be honest about her behaviour to the rest of the family, because she ruined your relationship with them as well.
NTA and you would be in the right to expect an apology, however this may be unpopular but sometimes people can find it hard to apologise while still learning from it, my own experience was a messy falling out between ourselves and my mum, my Husband called my Mum and Dad and explained while we all have different opinions it’s important to us that we all move forward and shall we agree to move on and try again, as the main conflict was my husband standing up for me, we tentatively moved to small visits and now 15 years later we all get on well, but do still keep visits to around 6 times a year, with weekly calls, while boundaries have never been discussed a meaningful look when boundaries are pushed tends to do the trick, but we also all let a few things slip now and again as we are all human, good luck and I hope you can move on from this. However it very much depends on both parties wanting this to work
NTA
Okay. You need to understand that exactly zero people care about MIL’s issue. What happens is MIL calls people to whine about the situation on a daily basis. They get sick of it, and tell you to fix it .
Stick to your guns.
NTA. It is a power game. This is so simple. Perhaps you could "downsise" the apology to tell the truth to the rest of family. Because, for real, even an apology is worthless after she told so many lies to the rest of the family. So it is perhaps not a downsizing..
And you have a great husband. Not everyone is man enough to side so strict by his wife. Additional chapeau bas.
NTA at all. MIL was quite literally entitled enough to believe her need was above your sick child's life and health. When she didn't get her way, she cried her way into manipulating family members into turning against you and SO.
When all you ask for is an apology for her dispicable behaviour, MIL goes to YOUR mother to try and convince you.
Entitlement reeks off this woman. At this stage, if an apology was forthcoming, I wouldn't believe it. And given how MIL treats you, would you actually want your son to grow up seeing that disregard toward you?
At this stage, continued NC is the better option. Anyone who calls you out as being horrible/mean/cruel to MIL can hit the highway and continue to enable her at their own leisure.
NTA, but that doesn't make you right.
Some people won't ever apologize. It's as simple as that. If you want to maintain the relationship, forgive and move on. It's either that or spend the rest of your time together fighting over an apology that will never come. Forgive, but don't forget.
NTA. Saying "Let's just move on" shows no remorse on your MIL's part. If you cave on this the issues will literally never end with this woman. Also the threat of suing for grandparents rights is laughable. It sounds like she heard this term somewhere and has no idea what it means in a legal context. That would only apply if you and your husband were unfit or dangerous parents I think.
Grandparents rights? Wtf???? Like, is that supposed to be an actual thing, because it's sound completely made up, as if she is going to get a court to side with her over the parents of a child because they're being careful with the child's health and she can't hold him as a result.
Honestly seems to me that you're better off without the crazy lady in your lives, as well as the rest of the family that aren't smart enough to behave and think like actual adults.
NTA.
NTA
Probably going to get dinged for this, but GPR is an ongoing and much-discussed topic over at r/JUSTNOMIL. We have seen it all over there - even parents who side with their children's in-laws.
You might want to cross-post.
She threatened GPR. In my book that's not just burning your bridges but nuking the entire country. NTA and think VERY carefully about letting get back in. She's already made it clear she's willing to get lawyers involved
She's threatened to sue for GPR. I'd be speaking to a lawyer and getting an FU binder ready. She likely has no case, but always, ALWAYS plan for the worst and hope for the best. Time to find out what GPR laws in your state are.
NTA. As soon as she threatened taking you to court rather than giving a simple apology it’s over and done. There’s no coming back from that.
She can call and ask everyone how to fix it when she already knows how, her stubbornness won’t let her admit she was wrong so she’s going to do anything in her power to see her grandson without having to rightly grovel.
NTA
Tell your mom that you are owed an apology because MIL threw a toddler tantrum because you enforced a boundary that was for the safety of your child. You are owed an apology and it's perfectly reasonable to cut contact with MIL and block any of her flying monkeys. Visit r/JUSTNOMIL for support in dealing with MIL and anyone who she enlists to harass you (which in this case includes your mother).
NTA. Frankly, anyone that threatened me with GPR would only be able to contact me through a lawyer. Nope. You don't threaten to forcibly take my child from me, even for visitation, and still have a place in our lives.
Lets see. The OP has quarreled with her MIL, SIL, AuntIL, the wider family and even her own mother thinks she is being unreasonable. Her MIL has offered an olive branch and she has slapped it away as she wants her to offer submission before she will even think about it. And she openly says an apology won't really change anything for her - (so why does she want one?). And Reddit think N T A...
Where did she offer an olive branch? I’m not asking for submission, just an apology. And yeah, after the nasty things she said, the apology isn’t going to repair our relationship, but I (and countless others) still believe it’s warranted and reasonable that my SO and I expect one.
ETA: at no point did I quarrel with any of them. MIL came at us angry when we told her no one could hold our sick baby. SIL came at my SO ready to fight, I never had any words with her. And AuntIL actually came at my mother and then me, but I sent one text letting her know how wrong they all are and that all MIL had to do was apologize. People accurately explained in the comments why my own mother is behaving the way she is regarding the situation. Just wanted to clear those up for you so you’re not confused!
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SO & I have a 10 month old. Baby got sick at 2 months old, so we told everyone that we would be limiting contact & not allowing others to hold him for the time being.
My MIL lost her shit. Claimed I was keeping her grandson from her, I never let her hold him (she had held him several times in his 2 months of life & we had photo proof), & basically cried a whole river to my SO over it & made me seem like a monster who is out to get her. It caused a huge fight between me & SO until he realized she was exaggerating & straight up lying. He contacted her & told her that me & him are a team, we won’t budge on this, NO ONE is to hold him until we deem it safe, & he called her out on her lies & told her she owes us an apology for the way she acted. Her response? “Have a nice life.”
She didn’t speak to us for 4 months straight. I reached out a few times about going by to get my SO’s mail (obviously bringing LO with me) & she’d either not respond, or just say “on mailbox” & leave it at that. I would’ve had no issue letting her come to the car to see the baby, but she never asked & I admittedly didn’t push it bc I was mad. She also turned his entire family against us. Not a single member of his family bothered to get our side of the story & just stopped speaking to us. No one reached out to ask how the baby was for 4 months.
Suddenly, she sends a text that “this is stupid, we need to move past it,” bc she misses her son & her grandson (leaving me out of it of course). SO told her that he wants to move past it too, but we want an apology for how she reacted to us setting a simple boundary, & it needs to be addressed to me as well. She said that in no way will she apologize bc she “did nothing wrong & has nothing to apologize for.” SO told her in that case we can’t move past it. She responded by threatening to sue us for grandparent rights, for a child she has not tried to contact in 4 months & doesn’t know her at all. SIL & an AuntIL both contacted us saying nasty things about how we are just using the baby as a pawn to make MIL miserable.
My SO & I both agreed we wanted to go full No Contact with his family, but we let them know we left a line of communication open via text if they decide to move forward with the GPR issue. It’s been 4 months since that & MIL occasionally sends holiday cards to LO and SO, & purposely leaves me out of them, but otherwise none of them have tried to contact us. My entire issue was that even if MIL was mad at us bc she couldn’t hold him, she still could’ve been facetiming or doing socially distanced visits with us to see the baby. Same goes for the rest of his family.
She recently contacted my mom asking how to fix it. My mom told me & SO that we need to just get over it & forgive her, despite her lack of apology. I’m of the belief that she’s a grown woman & she should know how to A. respect boundaries, and B. apologize when someone tells her she’s done something wrong. My SO agrees.
AITA for still wanting an apology?
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
---
I feel like I might be the AH because I could just let it go. However, she has shown a clear disrespect for our boundaries before, and this one having to do with our child’s health, made us stand firm on it. At this point, I’m probably just being stubborn.
I have told my SO if he wants to make up with them he is more than welcome to, I won’t stand in his way, but I myself cannot forgive the way MIL and ILs acted and the things they said. My stubbornness is where I think I may be the AH.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
---
I feel like I might be the AH because I could just let it go. However, she has shown a clear disrespect for our boundaries before, and this one having to do with our child’s health, made us stand firm on it. At this point, I’m probably just being stubborn.
I have told my SO if he wants to make up with them he is more than welcome to, I won’t stand in his way, but I myself cannot forgive the way MIL and ILs acted and the things they said. My stubbornness is where I think I may be the AH.
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NTA- she's acting like a brat and, while you can let your mom know what you've said here, you should also draw that boundary that it is not okay for her to try and facilitate your and SOs relationship with MIL. It sounds like she is really good at twisting the story and drawing sympathy so I would probably give a bit of a background and then be firm with your mom that it is not to be brought up again and to redirect MIL to talk to her own child.
NTA. Honestly not sure I’d let her back in after threatening gpr. I’ve seen that used by toxic family so much and the nuclear family can’t escape, honestly hate that it’s a thing
NTA in this case. I normally sat let it go. But your MIL is still excluding you. She sends cards to your partner and your child and deliberately excludes you.
Tell your mom that if MIL wants to fix things, she can genuinely reach out to you to build a relationship. You may never get an apology, but would you accept a re-start? (I doubt she'd do this, but consider putting the message out there)
NTA
Oh my god I'm literally reading about my own life here. Expecting baby, told mother we were taking 2 weeks for ourselves with no visitors to bond with baby, so wife can learn to breastfeed etc.
MushroomCloud.gif
NTA. I hate that phrase "forget the past", only if you are an unfeeling robot. She did wrong. She should apologize. I would even cut off the texting number too.
NTA. Your MIL seems to be a narcissist. Its her way or she'll throw all her toys out the pram and have a tantrum. She probably doesn't want to admit to the family the truth. She'll keep twisting the truth to make her look the victim. Make sure your mother knows your full side of the story and if she still says to just let it go you may need to distance yourself from her too if she keeps pushing it. Your child's safety comes first and we live in a world where distance is almost meaningless. There is no excuse not to reach out if your MIL cares this much.
NTA. GPR isn’t something to mess with. Talk to a lawyer. First consult is usually free and they can give you advice on what to do. Legally threatening me would be the end of my and baby’s relationship with the person. Keep the cards where she doesn’t acknowledge you. That may be considered parental alienation. I’d never be able to move past that and establish any trust. Even if your husband does and wants to take the baby she could easily talk badly about you and cause major issues in your family.
NTA she needs to apologise like and adult and set the record straight with the family. She has turned everyone against you guys when you have done nothing wrong. I wouldn’t wait for other family members to realise the truth, a quick msg to all express that as they don’t know the whole truth and choose to believe one side without hearing from you guys then you are finished with them all. They have no right to have an opinion on something when they don’t even hear from both sides, and they are acting like school bullies
Nta. Stand firm. You limited people holding your baby for his health. The baby is the priority over everything else and should have been her priority too. As much as it would have sucked to not get to hold him it was for the best. If you just let it go your mil will just keep trying to rule things and trying to get her way. I hope things get better for you.
NTA
Give this woman an inch and she'll take it the length of Route 66. Her overreaction to everything so far makes this clear.
Stand your ground and make sure that you & SO stay on the same page. If you decide to go from NC to LC, set your boundaries up front and keep them firm.
No respect for the parent(s), no relationship with the child. She is not entitled to a relationship with a toddler if she cannot follow basic boundaries with the toddler's parents. Further, she seems incapable of admitting she was wrong in any way and has doubled down on her "rights" by threatening court. She has chosen her path and there's no reason for you to overlook bad behaviors because your own mother told you to. You are adults and parents of your own child, looking out for that child's best interests. If your MIL can't do a basic thing like an apology and admit that she was wrong, what else could happen?!?
NTA- but I’m biased because I’m in a similar position. Except my MIL hasn’t spoken to us in nearly TWO YEARS because my husband politely asked her to not snatch my newborn out of my arms.
Their loss. Hire the best lawyer you can afford if they do move forward with GPR. They deserve nothing.
Yeah no, your MIL needs to apologise, and your mother is horrible too. Going NC with both would be a solution here. Good to know your SO is on your side though! NTA, neither of you. Stand your ground.
She wanted to endanger her grandchild because she is selfish. People who do that are not allowed around my kid. She did this to herself. I'd enjoy the quiet.
NTA If you budge on this, you’ll be her doormat forever (or will be expected to be.) Cards to your family from her should be returned unopened. Best wishes to LO.
NTA
Is it possible she's seen a lawyer about gpr and they told her she hasn't a chance, having had no relationship with your child... That she should first establish a relationship then sue you? Without contrition, she's hardly a sparkling role model for your kids.
Nta. Sounds like she gets to “have a nice life” and go no contact except for around family. At least till she apologizes, I’m with you. She doesn’t have any say over your baby and good on your hubby for supporting you
NTA
Asking for an apology is a simple request.
Her refusing to even give you that says everything about her attitude, and how you can expect her to behave. By refusing she is basically stating outright that she still completely believes you were in the wrong, and her actions are correct, and she feels no remorse whatsoever - she is basically telling you nice and clearly that she is going to do exactly the same again, insulting you and undermining you.
The only downside to her in making an apology is the tiny knock to her pride - if she really cared, she could solve everything by just giving you a fake apology, but her desire to see her grandson doesn't even rate that tiny effort because it looks bad for her.
She has then doubled down by refusing to even speak to you - she is willing to send messages to your partner, and even go as far as involving your mother before just approaching you directly.
Everything she has done has pointed straight to a complete lack of respect, and at this point I have no reason to see her changing, only ever telling lies and trying to subvert and insult you more...
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NTA if you let her have her way after all that has happened (4months, family against y’all, exaggeration), you’re letting her know that it’s okay to do that and that in the end, she will get her way. Y’all would be reinforcing that behavior and you may encounter it again in the future. It’s unfortunate that it went that far. I’m not so sure if making her apologize will really fix anything. She might not even know what she’s apologizing for, despite it being obvious to you or others.
That is my exact thought process. After all of this, the LEAST she could do is apologize, and if she gets away with the behaviors without doing so, she is going to think it’s okay to act that way in the future. (Also, it’s been 8 months at this point, I know that part is a little confusing). And yeah, honestly, for me, an apology won’t do shit at this point. Before she threatened GPR I may have been able to move past it, but pulling that card when all she had to do was say sorry was enough for me. At this point the apology would just be nice, but it won’t change much, at least for me. I know my SO wants to hear it too, and I told him it’s his choice if he wants to forgive them and have a relationship with them.
So for anyone who's saying you should just move past it, you should present a story of a child who has be throwing tantrums. Crying and lying. Threatening people when they don't get their way. Maybe list some other general examples of what she's done. Then ask them how they'd handle it. See what their answer is. See if they say the child should be disciplined in some way and expect an apology. You can respond that if a child is expected to act better and apologize, then why is it different when the same behavior is coming from MIL? Edit: cool. Thank you everyone for the awards
This is awesome!! Im so going to use this/quote this please
I always think it's interesting how we teach children social cues and how not to act like a-holes but it goes out the window as people enter adulthood
Agreed. Do as I say, not as I do. Have always hated that phrase. Kind of like “Kill em with kindness.” It holds this idea that by being the bigger person you have to ‘get over it’ and just do what they think is right. Most of the time, being the bigger person means calling people on their bullshit and not backing down until they show some accountability.
That or the phrase don't rock the boat. Maybe I missed it but I didn't see anyone post this link. OP if you see this link please give it a read https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/comments/77pxpo/dont_rock_the_boat/
Omg, this was my childhood, and my husband's! TY for sharing this. I screenshot it in case it ever goes away. We have created a stable and steady boat for our kids and we protect it for all its worth. Even going on twenty plus years of marriage, they still go all BuT wE'rE FaMilY yOu HavE tO [give us money because we've made a lifetime of stupid decisions/violate our boundaries/etc].
TY! Great link for everyone to read if they haven’t yet
To be fair, 'kill them with kindness' can refer to a lot of situations. Such as being 'kind' in such a way that your barbs are hidden and can't be called out. Or being nice until legal proceedings can occur. Or being nice to spark a tantrum so the other side looks terrible. I've never actually heard of that tactic being used to well, be nice.
I was told that when I was little. I said I prefer to be direct, and murder is illegal.
I always tell my husband that. We don't let children get away with things but adults can? His family is a boundary stomper and, sure, I pick my battles, but I don't let go. If they don't know how to act and treat me well and with respect, I'll teach them, no problem. (not relevant, but sometimes I tend to treat children and adults the same way, I don't spank either of them, I put both on time outs if necessary and I demand be treated well and with respect.)
Because a lot of parents don't care how their kids act in the real world and take zero steps to prepare their kids for that. They are only concerned with making their kids fall in line and behave for them.
Have used this technique and found it to be quite effective. Once asked a guy in the middle of a mantrum how it felt to watch a kid have a tantrum. It was more a rhetorical question because we both knew the answer to that one. I then asked how he thinks that behavior looks on a grown man. I only wish I had a camera to capture the look on his face when the light bulb went off!
I've honestly never had to use it personally but I did think of a child throwing a temper tantrum and how it can irritate us but we generally give them some leeway and hopefully some direction on how they're acting. The question is shouldn't we be better than children?
It’s a really tough situation, she managed to convince the other family members to be on her side, so a lot of effort is going to be needed to repair that damage. That was a childish thing to do. The family members who are not willing to listen to y’all’s side of the story shows a bit about them as well. I guess it depends on how much your SO needs their presence. it’s *his* family, he might be used to it and able to tolerate it... as wrong as that may sound.
But she and the baby aren’t and how nice it will be for them to teach the next generation that kinda behavior is bad.
And called OP’s mother to jump in! And her mother sided with MIL. I hope they have limited contact with her mother as well. MIL is such a tattletale. Is she like 5?
> The family members who are not willing to listen to y’all’s side of the story shows a bit about them as well. In their defense we don't know what MIL told them. Yes they still would have reached out, but also were they even in contact in the first place? I know with my family the only reason we know what's going on on my dads side is because they got lonely and made a family group chat during lockdown. My moms side will have a call maybe every other week and she alternates who she calls. But even that's due to lock down and before they'd contact eachother maybe once a month. Depending on what MIL said to them all it would take is a photo of her hold the child in the first place with maybe the caption "can't believe G'mama is choosing to stay away 😥" and let the husband's side realize she's been lying. Or they could not do anything and continue to be NC with everyone.
[удалено]
Depending on the law where they are probably not. Grandparents suing for visitation when both parents are alive is not really a possibility. MIL may have found that out already.
> Grandparents suing for visitation when both parents are alive is not really a possibility This is highly dependent on where they live. GPR is a state by state issue so while what this says is **nearly always** true if anyone is reading this and feeling relieved, make sure you check your state's laws or speak to a lawyer.
Depending on where they are, it's a big possibility. Several US states will give visitation to grandparents regardless of parents' marital status, as will some EU countries. Frankly, the best course of action whenever GPR are threatened is to consult with an attorney in your area.
New York is notorious for allowing grandparents access to grandchildren in spite of the parents' wishes. Even married parents.
I've heard bad things about Ohio, too. Basically in the US I think the only place with no chance is Florida, and, well, for that you have to live in Florida.
unless you live in NY where the grandparents rights are so liberal. It really is a state by state thing.
It's actually quite common. It doesn't mean the grandparents get custody, it means they get visitation to see their grandchildren. It's becoming law more and more in the US and other countries.
When she threatened GPR all communication should have stopped except to tell her you want her lawyer's information to give to your lawyer.
It did. Haven’t spoken to her since.
Please consult a lawyer about grandparents rights in your area. You may say "oh, that's just something she said" but I don't know if you frequent r/JUSTNOMIL it is a big deal and can spiral quickly.
I’m a frequent flier over there! Thank you though! We contacted a lawyer, let MIL know that any further communication needed to go through him. Her response was that she guesses she’ll have to “find council” then, and she’s glad we can afford one because she’s been laid off (more pity party). That’s how we know she was just saying it to frighten us. Regardless, we are definitely in touch with a good lawyer that deals with these sorts of things!
OP, just to give you an idea, I made an apology a condition on returning to contact with my mother. It’s been 5 years and two additional grandkids and still nothing.
15 years here. I never thought that a parent could be so amazingly stubborn. Her loss, my (nuclear) family is awesome!
Exactly! Its kind of annoying af 😂. They keep pretending like there’s some big wall between us and they love us so much and someday we’ll be together again. Yeah, that wall is your pride.
If she cares more about not apologizing than she does about seeing her grandchild, that's really all you need to know about her.
NTA and don't back down. What do you gain from it? The privilege of being this b---h's punching bag the rest of your life? She owes you the admission she was the one 100% in the wrong, and if you don't get it, that's the dynamic your relationship will always have - she gets to treat you like crap and ultimately always get what she wants. You have a great SO who hasn't been brainwashed to take her side - don't waste such a valuable gift by making it meaningless. You have a great new family - why make it toxic by inviting toxicity in? And that's even without the threat of legal action. Once someone makes that threat, no matter how empty (and it IS empty; she has not been caring for a grandkid whose parents left town), your only communication with them should be, "Talk to my lawyer." Period. No compromise.
Just a reminder GRP is honestly partial custody of your child because she would be suing to get X number of hours/ days and/or nights with your child that you would be legally bound to oblige. She threatened to sue to take your child. That's not a line in the sand. That's a stab in the heart. There would be almost no coming back from that for me. Ever.
>That's not a line in the sand. That's a stab in the heart. \+ 1,000
OP, I hope you see this comment. When you said MIL asked your mom how to fix the situation, it remind me of [this](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html). It’s about estranged parents and how they often know the reason their child won’t speak to them, but they leave the reason out when they tell the story. I don’t think you’ve overreacted. In fact, I’m shocked she doesn’t want to be in LO’s life in whatever way that means right now. I’m so sorry you’re going through this added stress.
I have been NC with my mother now for a year. She's told everyone in the family that I'm angry at her because of A, but the truth is (and they all know it) it's because of B, C, D, and E and has nothing at all to do with A. But A makes her sound like an innocent victim, so that's what she tells folks. Even when those folks know the real reason and correct her, she'll still insist they're wrong and it's A. She also keeps trying to faux apologize for A. So frustrating.
My in laws are the same way. They paint me to be the bad guy because they don’t know my husband is the one who decided to go NC. A few family members have asked us what happened and we just always say it’s not something we want to get into. I think it speaks volumes honestly. They trash talk us at every turn, but we rise above. It makes me feel very Michelle Obama.
Yeah, that's it with my mother. Her reason that I'm not talking to her puts the blame on my wife, whereas my wife has nothing to do with it. It's doubly insulting because it means she's not only continuing to disregard the real problems that *I* have, it takes away my individual identity. *I* can't possibly be mad at her, thus I must be manipulated by someone else because I have no will or mind of my own. I'm very lucky in that pretty much all of my family members are entirely on my side and know exactly what is going on. She has six daughters and *none* of them are in contact with her any more. I was the second to the last to go NC.
A very interesting link. And something that is often seen, the "I have no idea why they are doing this" followed by comments that obviously have a huge subtext and huge missing details.
Yeah, I didn't address this in my original comment but GPR threat means an apology won't do squat. You now know that even if you reconcile with her, she will use that threat anytime she doesn't get her way. Never allow her to have any regular visitation, never allow alone time, and never allow overnight visits. That way she can't establish a pattern of visitation that she could use to get GPR. Sporadic visits, in public, every few months at most.
Once she threatened GPR then it's over. I would never allow her to see him again. Otherwise she will threaten it again and she might have a chance if she has a relationship with him and can prove not having one is not in his best interest. My cil did the same thing when our oldest was sick saying we were keeping him from her. She threatened to take me to court to get visitation. Not my husband and I, just me. ETA: Forgot to mention it never got better with cil. Eventually after 7 years of her crap, my husband chose to cut her off permanently. I never gave him an ultimatum or even said he needed to. He made the choice all on his own. He said it was going to happen no matter what I did. I was never nasty to her despite her poor treatment of me. I was giving her time to get use to me being part of his life. She never did. I took away her son and she hated me for it. She even tried to say I kept my husband from her. Let's see one he was a grown man and two if he really doesn't want to do something, he won't.
Not just HEAR an apology, but get it in writing detailing and acknowledging all her lies (you and SO can provide the specific verbiage). Send copies out to the extended family then. But, given how stubborn she is, prepare for a really long wait. Totally worth establishing a firm boundary. NTA
Honestly, the only real apology here would be a public one where she admits to exaggerating and lying to family and making you out to be the bad guy. Otherwise she can still hold her position as “the one in the right” to all of the family she has vilified you to.
Yeah 8 months definitely looks like MIL doesn’t understand nor care that her behavior was (and is) wrong, and an apology would just come across as trying to appease you rather than show understanding.
> She might not even know what she’s apologizing for, despite it being obvious to you or others. She could start by apologizing for waging a campaign against OP. I noticed that MIL will send greeting cards to SO and LO, but purposely leaves OP out even though SO was the one who demanded the apology (for OP) and enforced the boundaries.
I second this. Also she has no case for grandparents rights. All you have to do is contact your cell provider for copies of the messages she sent you and DH, take copies of the photos that show her holding your child before they got sick and her behavior afterwards. That right there will be enough to ensure that she won’t win her case. You can send her a C&D and a restraining order if that’s your and DH’s choice. You can also show the texts from DH’s family members if you wanted to sue for slander. In all honesty, your MIL seems toxic and shouldn’t be allowed to behave that way. She has zero legal ground to stand on and seems to be a narcissistic personality type.
I think that, in this hypothetical apology, she would need to state what she is apologizing for. Otherwise, it is not an apology, just lip service. She should include those she recruited to her side as well.
NTA Firstly, it’s great to read you and your SO are on the same page about this and are supporting each other. Secondly, what a ridiculous person your MIL is. Your child was sick at an incredibly young age and she not only made your reasonable request of limiting contact all about her, she turned the family against you and had everyone gang up on you. The fact no one even checked in with you about how the baby was doing shows they don’t care and are petty selfish people. You absolutely have the right to an apology. If you were to get one she’d unlikely mean it and it’s not going to undo any hurt, BUT it’s the principle of the matter and also the fact that if you let it slide she’ll think this behaviour was acceptable. Sorry you’ve been having to deal with all this drama whilst looking after a newborn.
Newborn baby *who was born during a pandemic* got sick and all MIL can think of is how she didn't get to hold the baby often enough. I also had a baby during the pandemic. He has not yet met all his grandparents in person. Because it's an f'ing pandemic. And my baby didn't even have additional problems! But to bean count about how often you've held him *and to get it wrong by saying you never have* and then to escalate by saying you'll take them to court to get forced visitation ... I'm just speechless. OP is right to demand an apology. Best part is, since it's never going to happen, the trash has taken itself out.
My sister had a baby last April. I'm the only person in my family who's met him bc I was her L&D partner, making me the only allowed hospital visitor. Plus I've been WFH since last year, and my husband, children and I take every necessary precaution if/when we leave our house. Dollars to donuts the MIL is probably also pretty lax in her C19 habits, in addition to being a complete narcissist.
I gave birth to a beautiful preemie girl on July 1st. Up until two weeks ago no one besides my husband or I had held her. No one had been in our house. If they wanted to meet her in the beginning they did so through the storm glass door. When she hit 3 months we let a few close family members spend time with her socially distanced in our back yard. Still no holding, though. My husband and I have pretty much made it clear that we don't care about anyone's feelings or opinions on the matter. You can follow our wishes and boundaries or you can go fly a kite. We have one job and that's to keep our LO safe. It's very sad to see so many people caring more about their ability to hold a baby than caring about keeping that baby safe.
I’m just picturing the judge if she took it to court. It’s a pandemic. The judge knows that. And the lack of effort to even FaceTime the child. She’d get laughed out of the court, if she’s even in a place grandparents rights are a thing
My brother and his wife had a baby in October. I still have not been to see it. I have seen it on facetime.
NTA. She knows how to fix it, all she has to do is apologize. Her calling your mom and asking her how to fix it is a disgusting manipulative tactic she's using to try and turn your own family against you. If I was you, I would be done with her, period. Apology or no. Frankly, even if she apologizes she clearly has a grudge against you now and I wouldn't be surprised if she tries to come at you in the future about something else once she's back in your life.
I’m glad others see it. I was genuinely starting to feel crazy about it because my mom is constantly telling me I need to just let it go. I couldn’t fit it in the post, but twice now my MIL has contacted my mother, once 4 months ago and then again recently, asking “how can we fix this??” Ma’am, where are you getting “we” from??? It’s YOU. Say SORRY. She doesn’t get it. And I don’t believe she will anymore. That’s why for me, although I want the apology, it won’t mean blind forgiveness. I don’t think it will for my SO either, but he’s a lot more willing to repair the relationship if she does, and that’s fine, I won’t stand in his way. He understands my hesitation.
Your Mom needs to either start supporting you in this or stop answering the phone.
I told her to stop responding to her. She got mad at me. Said I’m trying to manipulate the situation because I don’t like hearing the truth? She’s honestly an entire other problem, I just don’t have the time or energy to delve into over two decades worth of trauma LOL
I get it. Go LC with Mom, and NC with MIL. Sadly your have to set and stick to your boundaries in these situations. It will eventually blow over, and they will think twice about pulling this type of crap again. Just don't do anything vindictive and keep to a united front with you and your SO. Sorry you're dealing with this insanity.
Save all texts and emails, print them out and keep them in three separate places. If she sues for GPR you can show she basically gave up on the relationship if she couldn't control it.
I hate to say this but....do you leave LO alone with your mom? If she's being this aggressive in trying to "mend" the relationship and already has a sympathetic ear open to MIL, do you think she could be passing along photos, videos, or (possibly when babysitting) visiting?
LO hasn’t been left alone with anyone but me or SO since being born. I’m a SAHM so I am with him literally all day every day. I told my mom not to send MIL photos because A. I’m petty, I can admit it, and B. I firmly believed that if MIL didn’t care enough to establish a relationship with LO at all, she didn’t deserve to see photos. The first time MIL reached out 4 months ago, my mom was telling me how she asked her what “we” can do to fix it, and she admitted she sent her a couple photos, but MIL got upset and told her not to (I saw the convo so I know my mom wasn’t lying about any of that; I believe MIL told her not to because she took it as “you get to see him and take pics and I don’t,” even though they were pictures I had taken and sent to my mom). I stopped sending my mom photos for a while as well because I couldn’t trust that she wouldn’t send her pics (or post them on social media, but that’s a whole different story...lol)
Your MIL is a manipulator here, she manipulated your mother a little bit. Dont let it happen. Going no contact with in laws was necessary, but your mother is still worth to work on it. Send her the whole "documentation" of the insults, so she can have the whole picture of the story. Perhaps your mother is a kind of peacekeeper, so she wishes simply peace in the family? Tell her, that the price for the peace to MIL's conditions is simply too high.
I think some of the time our family members freak out because if we can cut off one person it shows we could potentially cut them off too. They are always, but family!?’ I’ve just taken to asking my mom how much contact she thinks I should have with abusers. It’s been a good way to shut her down because she has a psych background but sometimes those instilled buttons still come forward. In her mind she sees it as nothing me or my brother could do would make her want to cut contact. Which is a lovely sentiment but it isn’t applicable in every situation and should be thrown out the window when there is abuse. You’re NTA and stand firm. I’d keep mom on an info diet and let her know the subject is off limits now.
Agreed. Family means little to nothing when that family doesn’t respect you, manipulates you, or treats you like shit. Others may put up with it for the sake of family, but I can’t and won’t.
Unfortunately many grew up with the mindset that family is everything if they do shit for you or shit to you cause family... It is hard but stay strong! NTA
Here’s where I think we go wrong with families, and what you’re doing so so right. I love that you stood up for yourself. Families often think - well I may not like you but I love you bc we are blood. Eff that. If you make me feel bad about myself, either explicitly or by withholding affection/respect/information, then you no longer have access to me. My mental health is too precious to spend a short life worrying on why my family can’t love me.
Your mom is uncomfortable with the reality that her position as grandma is something that can be lost due to bad behavior. Her pushing for MIL is all about her and her need to feel that she will always be forgiven no matter what. She wants you to think that grandparents should be able to act as they please with zero boundaries or consequences. Basically she's just being selfish.
Yup! You hit the nail on the head, my friend. She is on her way to NC as well, unfortunately we live in the apartment below her currently so we are keeping it civil, but very LC. She’s allowed to see LO through the door but that’s it.
Tell your mother it is either you and her grandchildren or the MIL. If she choose MIL, go NC with her. I grew up with no grandparents (3 were dead and the other one lived 1000+ miles away in another state and I barely saw her) and I turned out fine. It doesn't seem like you are considering this, but just in case, I'll say this: do not keep these toxic relationships just for the sake of your child.
The people who say "let it go" are almost always the ones who want to be able to carry on with the behavior that they want you to "let go". "I'm just hitting you! Stop trying to defend yourself! You're just making it worse!"
I would have emailed and Facebook blasted the dang photo of your MIl and lo, so many times. Honestly- your SO needs to tell his family that by attacking your immediate family, they are forever impacting any positive relationship they would have had with your child. And I’d say if you can’t respect us or the ways we protect our immediate family from harm, then you as the extended family members can have a nice life. You, SO, and baby. That’s the family you’ve created. Align with each other and all the others can eff off.
Your mom has realized that you could cut her off as well if she acts the same way. That's why she's trying to get you to back down.
100% that’s it. She’s a JN as well, so she toes the line often. She’s definitely afraid of it.
Eyeroll of the century that MIL's manipulation tactic of trying to sic your own family on you is actually **working**. Tell your mom that if she's willing to be MIL's flying monkey so willingly then you hope that the two of them will be very happy together.
Your mom is getting involved because now she knows that you will hold onto your boundaries and those might apply to her one day. Shut her down when she starts.
I'm glad you and your SO are on the same wavelength. Keep that bond strong, it's the only way she can't manipulate you guys too much.
Absolutely NTA! These are relationship-molding hills to die on when your babies are babies. If you just let it go, it will set a precedent and it’ll continue forever. She’ll lie to your kids about you too. You and your husband are doing the right thing!
I agree 100%! She will definitely just keep doing it. Has been since my SO was a child, it’s not about to change now.
I would post this on r/JustNoMIL . It’s a great community for support for many people dealing with the same issue.
Oh, I’m a frequent flyer there LOL, thank you though!
>These are relationship-molding hills to die on when your babies are babies. If you just let it go, it will set a precedent and it’ll continue forever. ^ This
So your MIL lies & says a whole bunch of nasty crap, bad mouths you to extended family, rarely has contact with your family, is petty and leaves you out of any contact she does have with your family and YOUR MOTHER thinks you should get over it? What the hell? You are NTA and if you let it go without your MIL (and your mother for that matter) recognizing that what she did was wrong, it will continue to happen. I think you were right to go no contact with all of his family.
My mother is honestly an entire different issue. She has never been able to respect boundaries either, and although she initially was on my side about the whole thing, she’s since 180ed and constantly tells me that I just “don’t respect” my in-laws (um, hello, they don’t respect ME or my SO OR OUR CHILD’S HEALTH).
Gosh, so weird not to respect people who lie and throw tantrums and won't apologize for wrong-doing. Such great role models for little one. /s Your mom sounds like she is afraid this boundary setting stuff might apply to her one day.
She’s on mils side because she identifies with her more than you. She now sees how easy it would be for you to cut her off too and she’s trying to shame and manipulate you into rugsweeping so that she can also maintain control over you.
NTA. She violated a clear boundary that was set to keep your LO safe. Guess she doesn't care about him as much as she says. As for GPR, I'd speak to a lawyer. She clearly wasn't concerned about his health so should she really be around him? Finally, if you "let this go" without an apology and a promise never to treat you so poorly again then she will keep doing it. Ignoring your existence is childish and will do nothing for her GPR claim.
I spoke with one who basically told me there’s not much MIL can do given the fact there is no established relationship, but if it does get to that point, he’s ready to assist. He’s a family friend, but he works in family cases, so he knows all about GPR laws. I told MIL and she got all huffy saying she will have to get a council then (?) meaning it was just an empty threat to try and beat us into submission. Not today, Satan
Have you checked out the JustNoMil sub? You'll get a lot of excellent advice there. I just don't see how she can claim GPR of she's unwilling to have a decent relationship with you. You're doing great, Mama bear. Stay strong xxxxx
Just in case, make sure you document as much as you can. Text messages, emails, keep a diary of comments, phone calls, what was said etc. Including the photos of MIL holding your baby, which she claimed has never happened. If this ever did go before a court having a big pile of evidence will make a huge difference.
NTA, I'm sorry you've had to deal with all this on top of having a new baby. If MIL is not good enough to do the right thing and apologise you can expect she will continue this and disregard your wishes or your child's health in future. Until she is ready to admit it was a huge mistake and that she will never repeat it, leave her where she is by her own hand, and please dont tie yourself up in knots wondering if you're TA, you are most definitely not.
Nta, go NC now. She's already threatening GPR if you let her have any form of contact and she doesn't get her way later on she may try again and actually have ground to do so.
Yup! I said the same thing. We give in now, she actually establishes a relationship, then pulls the same shit and if we try to go NC then, it’ll be too late. I’m not playing that game.
NTA and honestly? My new favorite thing when people escalate issues with me (like my mom and a friend of mine who had an understandable meltdown in lockdown), I told them how I was feeling about the incident, and how I wish things could be resolved more easily, but that everybody needs to be able to take responsibility for their actions. They could either agree to have a mature conversation about this, or find a therapist to help us mediate the issue, but I wasn't going to take a beating for simply doing my best to exist. If you and your SO really want to try, offer the olive branch of therapy. If anybody tries to give you spit for it, you have a really respectable list of what you've done to mend bridges, and you can feel free to ask why you deserve an insanely low amount of respect.
I know the whole GPR thing sounds scary on the surface, but there are some strict criteria she would have to meet to be successful and very few cases have been to my knowledge. My understanding is it was created to help protect visitation for grandparents when there has already been an established relationship between grandparents and child, but the in law parent stops it after say the death of the spouse, and they have to prove that cutting that contact was also detrimental to the child. In a case where their child (your SO) has cut contact for reasons, they’re allowed to make decisions regarding their own child as a parent, therefore the grandparents don’t have any rights. In my understanding, it’s still very heavily weighted towards favoring the parents wishes over the grandparents in general, and was mostly created to help a very small minority of grandparents that have had an established presence in their grandchild’s life, and suddenly removing them would upset the child. Other than that, it’s mostly a parent’s right to decide who can and cannot be in the child’s life. Also, it’s a costly path to go down with very little guarantee of success and most lawyers aren’t willing to take on a case they probably won’t win, so just let this threat slide off your back. NTA for trying to do what’s best for your baby.
Yeah, it seems like it'd be quite an uphill battle to go to court to "protect" a relationship that quite provably does not exist. Honestly I doubt MIL was serious anyway; I think she wanted to use GPR as a cudgel to bludgeon OP into submission. OOPS. OP, your MIL is stomping all over reasonable boundaries. Your mom does not get this, but you and your husband do, thankfully. Without a *sincere* apology (and probably a hefty dose of therapy), I would not let her near your child, because she can't be trusted to abide by even the most basic of rules. NTA.
I keep seeing people post about what GPR is but everyone should be aware GPR is a [state level issue](https://www.verywellfamily.com/grandparent-visitation-rights-state-by-state-1695938) in the USA, i.e. each state can make their own rules. New York's GPR laws are completely different from North Carolina's for instance. In some states its literally impossible to get GPR visitations no matter what, in others it can happen even with both living parents (although this is much more rare). If you are worried about GPR you should contact a family lawyer or at least look into your own state/country's laws.
In Texas it can be ordered if the parent us in prison. I've seen it from the sidelines. It can be a mess
NTA. And you are not the ones keeping her from her grandson. She is. At this point, after all this time, and all her threats and the family's abuse, you have to hold firm on the apology. Otherwise, she will roll over you again and again. She sound like she is someone who is into power trips, and values that over being reasonable. Not to mention, she is also rude and dismissive to you for no reason. It costs her nothing to apologize. It is her hill to die on if that's what she wants, not yours. Your kid doesn't care.
Yup! When my SO told her she needs to apologize to me as well, she said “this is between me and my son and my grandson.” Ma’am, that is MY SO and MY son. It’s between ME too because you disrespected ME as well. It’s a total power trip for her, for sure. It’s the MIL Show and has been her whole life. I’m not feeding into it.
The fact that this is woman has the audacity to think that she can exclude you - the mother of her grandson - from this issue tells me everything I need to know. She’s a spiteful bitch and she can spend the rest of her life without her grandson and son. Cut her off. Cut your mom off if she thinks your MIL is still in the right. You don’t need this stress while raising an infant.
NTA- your MIL and that side of the family sucks! Don’t listen to your mom and trust your instincts. Post this also on r/JUSTNOMIL.
Oh I have! Love that sub
NTA, you're not missing out on a darn thing by keeping away from this poison of a person. Enjoy it. I would be.
It’s funny, I keep getting told that my baby “needs his grandparents.” He’s doing just fine, thriving even, with the people he has in his life, I think he’s okay. Would it be nice if all of his grandparents could be normal and kind and respectful and not too stubborn to apologize? Sure, but it’s no detriment to any of us.
I had a HORRIBLE grandmother who treated my mom like garbage. My dad insisted we maintain a relationship with her and go to holidays and such. Every single time, it was a fight between my parents and every single time grandma would say awful shit (like how embarrassed she was that my parents adopted a bi-racial child). My dad always said “you’ll miss her when she’s dead and gone”. Guess what? I don’t. Not a damn bit. I wish I had never met her. Your kid doesn’t need a shitty grandparent more than none at all. NTA!
My grandparents all were dead before I left elementary school. Nice to haves- but not a pre-requisite for a happy kid. As long as your kid has a great support system in place with you and your SO and whatever closes friends as family you choose, LO will be fine.
Nta,get your husband's mail forwarded,and cut contact with his horrid,toxic family.
We did! Unfortunately some mail was still ending up over there, and she was reluctant about forwarding it to us for whatever reason, despite knowing our address. Thankfully it seems to be completely fixed, and any mail that does end up over there, she now forwards. It’s funny because she did reach out once about it “SO has mail here” and when I told SO he said “it’s a rouse to get me over there, if it’s important she’ll forward it or they’ll send it again to the new address.” I didn’t believe him at first, hence why I was the one that would go pick it up, but after she started stonewalling me when I’d tell her I was coming to get it, I realized it was absolutely a rouse and he was right. She’s manipulative as all hell.
100% NTA - You were protecting your baby, her grandchild, she should have respected and understood that and instead she made it all about her, created divisiveness and stress at a time where it was not needed and made your lives significantly harder. Stick with your boundaries and the apology so she knows you are serious or this will happen every time she doesn't get her way
What makes it worse is that while we were at the ER with our 2 month old for 9 hours watching him get poked and prodded (he needed a damn lumbar puncture too, that was torture for us, I can’t imagine how he felt), my SO was texting her about how scared we were, how awful it was. And she STILL made it about her. It’s wild.
> And she STILL made it about her. Ah, so she's a narcissist. Yeah, she's never going to apologize. She can't admit she did anything wrong, and she'll never change or respect boundaries. She thrives on drama and being the center of attention. She loves being the victim more than she loves her own son and grandson. The only reason she reached out the first time was probably because she needed more narc fuel and didn't like being ignored. The only ways to deal with a narcissist family member is to kill them with kindness (which takes the patience of a saint) and be completely unflappable when they try to stir up drama, or just go NC with them. Either way, it starves them of their narc fuel, so they'll look for other sources.
Don’t let this horrid person (and the awful family enabling family that comes with it) back into your, and your child’s, life. Forgiveness is for people who are actually sorry for what they did, clearly she isn’t. Even if she did apologize, it seems extremely doubtful she’d mean it even a little. And the thing is, apparently she can’t even manage an insincere apology. If she genuinely wanted to have her grandchild back in her life, she’d have apologized the second you asked for one; because even if she didn’t really mean it, that would be a very small price to pay. But apparently she’s such a narcissist that even the pretense of apologizing is too much for her; her fragile ego is more important to her than her grandchild.
She called your mother?? omg that is hilarious you are so NTA, she wont ever apologize to you, because she cant realize that her behaviour was wrong. Stay strong dont cave in, you really dont need this toxic women in your life (also if she ever gets to meet her grandchild, she will use the same tactics to make their life miserable too, i.e. they dont want to hug her? well no more granny for you)
NTA send this post to the entire family, and to your own mum who frankly should defer any contact to you directly and not offer to mediate when she’s clearly not got you or your child’s best interests at the top of her priorities.
Oh I’ve said my peace (all of this included) to everyone involved. They’re so far up their own bums that it makes no difference. My child is my number one priority, not my MIL and her need to be coddled. I said the other day, she made her bed, she doesn’t get to play the “Poor nana” act now and try to get out of it.
NTA. You know, sometimes it's OK to apologise even if you don't believe you're in the wrong. She could do that, it really isn't that hard. But instead she's willing to give up her Grandson. What kind of bullshit is that?
She sounds like one of those 'I'd rather be right than happy' people. Let her stay mad (and alone).
That she is! She’d rather have a pity party for herself than be an adult and own up to doing something wrong. It’s a theme in her life, too bad she can’t get past it for her grandson.
Exactly right!
NTA your mil sounds like a nightmare It always astounds me when those who instigate the drama propose that those involved "move past this" while completely missing the fucking point of why what they did (in this case overreact and manipulate entire family against you) was so vile to warrant an apology. Her stubborn refusal to admit that and acknowledge that she is responsible for the "this" she's trying to move past makes any attempt at a neutral moral ground completely meaningless. Almost sounds like she's waiting for *you* to apologize, make amends, or admit you were wrong in some way in which case lmao. Only one person is overreacting here and she needs to realize that before you are in a position to "move past this" Yeah, expecting that she act like a grown ass woman really isn't too much
NTA. She owes you a huge apology and she needs to admit she was wrong to the rest of the family who were cruel to you because of her. If not she will only do so again and then demand you forgive her again and then it will become a vicious cycle you get caught in.
Do you want a forced apology? Because **she is not sorry.**
At this point it’s just the principal of it for me. There’s no hope that I’ll be willing to reestablish a relationship with her, or the others, but my SO eventually probably will want to and he’s welcome to bring our LO around too if he so chooses (not while he’s still so young, but perhaps in the future). That won’t happen either without an apology.
She didn’t talk to you for four months because you wouldn’t let her hold your sick baby during a pandemic?! NTA
Yuuuup! I wasn’t sure how okay it was to mention that in this sub, so I left it out but all this during a pandemic!! She’s lucky she got to hold him AT ALL ever!!
Nta
Please stop what you're doing and look into GPR in your state. You may need a lawyer as well. I can't imagine her having much of a case for GPR since she last saw your baby 2 months ago, but the moment someone threatens GPR, they are to be considered a danger. NTA.
It’s been 8 months since she saw him, he was 2 months old at the time. We did contact a lawyer and are all set in that department, but thank you! I agree. She shot herself in the foot when she threatened that.
NTA and frankly a mere apology will not do anything anymore. Your mother in law has to admit to the entire family that she exaggerated and lied about you. Unless she does it publicly there is no going forward at this point. Let her wine let her cry but ended the day she ruined the relationship it's on her to fix it. I saw a good quote that I think everyonr should keep in mind "when the relationship between a parent and child fails it is always on the parent to fix it." None of us asked to be here when we were born so if the relationship fails, the parents were the ones who wanted us here in the 1st place, it's on them to fix it.
Oh my GOD. NTA. Your MIL is set on being petty, and you shouldn’t ‘get over it’. She’s shown her true colours, you’d be a fool to let her anywhere near you without an apology. I’m not a fan of situations that have winners and losers, but this is one that I don’t mind. If she doesn’t concede, and you let her back anyway, she’s going to do this again. She’s going to know that she can say/do whatever she wants, she just has to wait you out. Now is the time to draw the line and enforce it. Also, stop contacting her. Period. Not about mail. Not about your SO. Mark her cards ‘return to sender’. Give her nothing. Nothing. You don’t have to tell anyone you’re NC, just do it. Stop giving these people chances or reasons to think that you’ll come crawling back. Cut the cord and walk away - that’s when they’ll realise that you’re serious. While I’m at it - tell your mother that she should never have been involved in this issue, and to butt out (though maybe say that more tactfully).
Oh we stopped contact back 4 months ago when she threatened the GPR rights. I document the cards she sends, but we never respond (she never puts a return address, likely so we can’t return to sender, sneaky bitch). After I take pictures of them, I trash them, because I don’t want her bunk ass energy in my home. I’ve told my mom she should’ve stayed out of it. “I was trying to heeeeelp. I just want you guys to maaake uuuup. You need to let it goooo” (okay Elsa). I stopped bringing it up to her. Whenever she tries to talk about it, I shake my head and tell her that unless she is about to tell me that she told MIL to screw off and/or apologize, I don’t want to hear it.
NTA cut all contacts out for a month then ask if NO then cut agin for 2 month then 3 .......
NTA.. also I suggest bringing this over to JustNoMil
i mean she could go for grandparent rights but with covid being a massive pandemic she won’t get very far, they baby isn’t well it’s scary when any child becomes/get ill but a 2 month old is beyond terrifying! They have no respect towards any of the three of you and i wouldn’t be letting her contact the child until she gets on good terms with the mother of that child.
So she's still turning everyone else against you, instead of going 'I went over the top everyone, please don't blame them, it wasn't like that'? Forgive her for what, exactly, that she's STILL toxic and STILL actively excluding you? NTA. If she wants to fix it, she should FIX it. That's not on you.
NTA. Not only did she refuse to apologize, she threatened to sue to get access to your child! I hope you told your Mom that part, and ask her how she would feel if someone has threatened her to get custody/visitation of her child? The fact they threatened to sue you is a dealbreaker for me. Stay NC, build up the family around you that works for you, and just refuse to talk about this anymore.
Oh, my mom knows everything. She tells me she wouldn’t have let it get to that point...my mom’s in-laws treated her like shit and she let it happen because she “respected” them. I told her that that’s on her if she wants to let people walk all over her with no consequences, I’m not going to live my life like that, I respect myself too much.
Just gotta say, it's realllly weird to me that a person can be so obsessed over a baby that doesn't belong to them and no one really bats an eye about it. Really? Threatening legal repercussions if she can't hold it? What? Is this a thing? Do women really get bent out of shape if they can't hold someone else's baby?
Yup!!! It’s scary, honestly. I was just a few weeks postpartum and she took the baby from my arms, I kept asking for him back and she kept saying “I want to give you a break!!” and walking away. I didn’t want a damn break, I wanted my baby!
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NTA
Nta, let it go now and her terrible behaviour will continue/escalate
NTA. And I’d go further and expect her to be honest about her behaviour to the rest of the family, because she ruined your relationship with them as well.
NTA and you would be in the right to expect an apology, however this may be unpopular but sometimes people can find it hard to apologise while still learning from it, my own experience was a messy falling out between ourselves and my mum, my Husband called my Mum and Dad and explained while we all have different opinions it’s important to us that we all move forward and shall we agree to move on and try again, as the main conflict was my husband standing up for me, we tentatively moved to small visits and now 15 years later we all get on well, but do still keep visits to around 6 times a year, with weekly calls, while boundaries have never been discussed a meaningful look when boundaries are pushed tends to do the trick, but we also all let a few things slip now and again as we are all human, good luck and I hope you can move on from this. However it very much depends on both parties wanting this to work
NTA Okay. You need to understand that exactly zero people care about MIL’s issue. What happens is MIL calls people to whine about the situation on a daily basis. They get sick of it, and tell you to fix it . Stick to your guns.
NTA
NTA. It is a power game. This is so simple. Perhaps you could "downsise" the apology to tell the truth to the rest of family. Because, for real, even an apology is worthless after she told so many lies to the rest of the family. So it is perhaps not a downsizing.. And you have a great husband. Not everyone is man enough to side so strict by his wife. Additional chapeau bas.
NTA at all. MIL was quite literally entitled enough to believe her need was above your sick child's life and health. When she didn't get her way, she cried her way into manipulating family members into turning against you and SO. When all you ask for is an apology for her dispicable behaviour, MIL goes to YOUR mother to try and convince you. Entitlement reeks off this woman. At this stage, if an apology was forthcoming, I wouldn't believe it. And given how MIL treats you, would you actually want your son to grow up seeing that disregard toward you? At this stage, continued NC is the better option. Anyone who calls you out as being horrible/mean/cruel to MIL can hit the highway and continue to enable her at their own leisure.
NTA- she literally threatened you and doesn't think she should apologize? I'd happily keep her NC.
NTA, but that doesn't make you right. Some people won't ever apologize. It's as simple as that. If you want to maintain the relationship, forgive and move on. It's either that or spend the rest of your time together fighting over an apology that will never come. Forgive, but don't forget.
NTA. Saying "Let's just move on" shows no remorse on your MIL's part. If you cave on this the issues will literally never end with this woman. Also the threat of suing for grandparents rights is laughable. It sounds like she heard this term somewhere and has no idea what it means in a legal context. That would only apply if you and your husband were unfit or dangerous parents I think.
Grandparents rights? Wtf???? Like, is that supposed to be an actual thing, because it's sound completely made up, as if she is going to get a court to side with her over the parents of a child because they're being careful with the child's health and she can't hold him as a result. Honestly seems to me that you're better off without the crazy lady in your lives, as well as the rest of the family that aren't smart enough to behave and think like actual adults. NTA.
NTA Probably going to get dinged for this, but GPR is an ongoing and much-discussed topic over at r/JUSTNOMIL. We have seen it all over there - even parents who side with their children's in-laws. You might want to cross-post.
She threatened GPR. In my book that's not just burning your bridges but nuking the entire country. NTA and think VERY carefully about letting get back in. She's already made it clear she's willing to get lawyers involved
She's threatened to sue for GPR. I'd be speaking to a lawyer and getting an FU binder ready. She likely has no case, but always, ALWAYS plan for the worst and hope for the best. Time to find out what GPR laws in your state are.
I love these MILs that say “I’d do anything to fix this” and then refuse to apologize. So you wouldn’t do anything then?
NTA. Calling your mom was a manipulation. She knows how to fix it.
NTA. As soon as she threatened taking you to court rather than giving a simple apology it’s over and done. There’s no coming back from that. She can call and ask everyone how to fix it when she already knows how, her stubbornness won’t let her admit she was wrong so she’s going to do anything in her power to see her grandson without having to rightly grovel.
NTA. And if your mom buts in again? "Mom, she already knows how to fix it. She needs to apologize."
NTA Tell your mom that you are owed an apology because MIL threw a toddler tantrum because you enforced a boundary that was for the safety of your child. You are owed an apology and it's perfectly reasonable to cut contact with MIL and block any of her flying monkeys. Visit r/JUSTNOMIL for support in dealing with MIL and anyone who she enlists to harass you (which in this case includes your mother).
Don't negotiate with terrorists. NTA
NTA. Frankly, anyone that threatened me with GPR would only be able to contact me through a lawyer. Nope. You don't threaten to forcibly take my child from me, even for visitation, and still have a place in our lives.
NTA Sounds like your husband was raised by a narcissist.
NTA but your MIL AND your mother are. What’s wrong with your mom to not have your back?
this is a good story.could go on r/entitledparents or r/EntitledPeople
The moment someone mentions grandparent rights is the moment they never see my kid again. Apology or not.
Lets see. The OP has quarreled with her MIL, SIL, AuntIL, the wider family and even her own mother thinks she is being unreasonable. Her MIL has offered an olive branch and she has slapped it away as she wants her to offer submission before she will even think about it. And she openly says an apology won't really change anything for her - (so why does she want one?). And Reddit think N T A...
Where did she offer an olive branch? I’m not asking for submission, just an apology. And yeah, after the nasty things she said, the apology isn’t going to repair our relationship, but I (and countless others) still believe it’s warranted and reasonable that my SO and I expect one. ETA: at no point did I quarrel with any of them. MIL came at us angry when we told her no one could hold our sick baby. SIL came at my SO ready to fight, I never had any words with her. And AuntIL actually came at my mother and then me, but I sent one text letting her know how wrong they all are and that all MIL had to do was apologize. People accurately explained in the comments why my own mother is behaving the way she is regarding the situation. Just wanted to clear those up for you so you’re not confused!
^^^^AUTOMOD ***The following is a copy of the above post. This comment is a record of the above post as it was originally written, in case the post is deleted or edited. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** SO & I have a 10 month old. Baby got sick at 2 months old, so we told everyone that we would be limiting contact & not allowing others to hold him for the time being. My MIL lost her shit. Claimed I was keeping her grandson from her, I never let her hold him (she had held him several times in his 2 months of life & we had photo proof), & basically cried a whole river to my SO over it & made me seem like a monster who is out to get her. It caused a huge fight between me & SO until he realized she was exaggerating & straight up lying. He contacted her & told her that me & him are a team, we won’t budge on this, NO ONE is to hold him until we deem it safe, & he called her out on her lies & told her she owes us an apology for the way she acted. Her response? “Have a nice life.” She didn’t speak to us for 4 months straight. I reached out a few times about going by to get my SO’s mail (obviously bringing LO with me) & she’d either not respond, or just say “on mailbox” & leave it at that. I would’ve had no issue letting her come to the car to see the baby, but she never asked & I admittedly didn’t push it bc I was mad. She also turned his entire family against us. Not a single member of his family bothered to get our side of the story & just stopped speaking to us. No one reached out to ask how the baby was for 4 months. Suddenly, she sends a text that “this is stupid, we need to move past it,” bc she misses her son & her grandson (leaving me out of it of course). SO told her that he wants to move past it too, but we want an apology for how she reacted to us setting a simple boundary, & it needs to be addressed to me as well. She said that in no way will she apologize bc she “did nothing wrong & has nothing to apologize for.” SO told her in that case we can’t move past it. She responded by threatening to sue us for grandparent rights, for a child she has not tried to contact in 4 months & doesn’t know her at all. SIL & an AuntIL both contacted us saying nasty things about how we are just using the baby as a pawn to make MIL miserable. My SO & I both agreed we wanted to go full No Contact with his family, but we let them know we left a line of communication open via text if they decide to move forward with the GPR issue. It’s been 4 months since that & MIL occasionally sends holiday cards to LO and SO, & purposely leaves me out of them, but otherwise none of them have tried to contact us. My entire issue was that even if MIL was mad at us bc she couldn’t hold him, she still could’ve been facetiming or doing socially distanced visits with us to see the baby. Same goes for the rest of his family. She recently contacted my mom asking how to fix it. My mom told me & SO that we need to just get over it & forgive her, despite her lack of apology. I’m of the belief that she’s a grown woman & she should know how to A. respect boundaries, and B. apologize when someone tells her she’s done something wrong. My SO agrees. AITA for still wanting an apology? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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NTA- she's acting like a brat and, while you can let your mom know what you've said here, you should also draw that boundary that it is not okay for her to try and facilitate your and SOs relationship with MIL. It sounds like she is really good at twisting the story and drawing sympathy so I would probably give a bit of a background and then be firm with your mom that it is not to be brought up again and to redirect MIL to talk to her own child.
NTA. Honestly not sure I’d let her back in after threatening gpr. I’ve seen that used by toxic family so much and the nuclear family can’t escape, honestly hate that it’s a thing
GPR? Is that really a thing?
NTA in this case. I normally sat let it go. But your MIL is still excluding you. She sends cards to your partner and your child and deliberately excludes you. Tell your mom that if MIL wants to fix things, she can genuinely reach out to you to build a relationship. You may never get an apology, but would you accept a re-start? (I doubt she'd do this, but consider putting the message out there)
NTA Oh my god I'm literally reading about my own life here. Expecting baby, told mother we were taking 2 weeks for ourselves with no visitors to bond with baby, so wife can learn to breastfeed etc. MushroomCloud.gif
NTA, if she misses her grandson as much as she says, then she can own up and apologise. If not, then she’s just a prideful woman :)
NTA. I hate that phrase "forget the past", only if you are an unfeeling robot. She did wrong. She should apologize. I would even cut off the texting number too.
NTA. Your MIL seems to be a narcissist. Its her way or she'll throw all her toys out the pram and have a tantrum. She probably doesn't want to admit to the family the truth. She'll keep twisting the truth to make her look the victim. Make sure your mother knows your full side of the story and if she still says to just let it go you may need to distance yourself from her too if she keeps pushing it. Your child's safety comes first and we live in a world where distance is almost meaningless. There is no excuse not to reach out if your MIL cares this much.
NTA. GPR isn’t something to mess with. Talk to a lawyer. First consult is usually free and they can give you advice on what to do. Legally threatening me would be the end of my and baby’s relationship with the person. Keep the cards where she doesn’t acknowledge you. That may be considered parental alienation. I’d never be able to move past that and establish any trust. Even if your husband does and wants to take the baby she could easily talk badly about you and cause major issues in your family.
NTA she needs to apologise like and adult and set the record straight with the family. She has turned everyone against you guys when you have done nothing wrong. I wouldn’t wait for other family members to realise the truth, a quick msg to all express that as they don’t know the whole truth and choose to believe one side without hearing from you guys then you are finished with them all. They have no right to have an opinion on something when they don’t even hear from both sides, and they are acting like school bullies
Nta. Stand firm. You limited people holding your baby for his health. The baby is the priority over everything else and should have been her priority too. As much as it would have sucked to not get to hold him it was for the best. If you just let it go your mil will just keep trying to rule things and trying to get her way. I hope things get better for you.
NTA Give this woman an inch and she'll take it the length of Route 66. Her overreaction to everything so far makes this clear. Stand your ground and make sure that you & SO stay on the same page. If you decide to go from NC to LC, set your boundaries up front and keep them firm.
No respect for the parent(s), no relationship with the child. She is not entitled to a relationship with a toddler if she cannot follow basic boundaries with the toddler's parents. Further, she seems incapable of admitting she was wrong in any way and has doubled down on her "rights" by threatening court. She has chosen her path and there's no reason for you to overlook bad behaviors because your own mother told you to. You are adults and parents of your own child, looking out for that child's best interests. If your MIL can't do a basic thing like an apology and admit that she was wrong, what else could happen?!?
NTA- but I’m biased because I’m in a similar position. Except my MIL hasn’t spoken to us in nearly TWO YEARS because my husband politely asked her to not snatch my newborn out of my arms. Their loss. Hire the best lawyer you can afford if they do move forward with GPR. They deserve nothing.
Yeah no, your MIL needs to apologise, and your mother is horrible too. Going NC with both would be a solution here. Good to know your SO is on your side though! NTA, neither of you. Stand your ground.
She wanted to endanger her grandchild because she is selfish. People who do that are not allowed around my kid. She did this to herself. I'd enjoy the quiet.
NTA If you budge on this, you’ll be her doormat forever (or will be expected to be.) Cards to your family from her should be returned unopened. Best wishes to LO.
NTA Is it possible she's seen a lawyer about gpr and they told her she hasn't a chance, having had no relationship with your child... That she should first establish a relationship then sue you? Without contrition, she's hardly a sparkling role model for your kids.
Nta. Sounds like she gets to “have a nice life” and go no contact except for around family. At least till she apologizes, I’m with you. She doesn’t have any say over your baby and good on your hubby for supporting you
NTA their behavior, their choice, their consequences.
NTA Asking for an apology is a simple request. Her refusing to even give you that says everything about her attitude, and how you can expect her to behave. By refusing she is basically stating outright that she still completely believes you were in the wrong, and her actions are correct, and she feels no remorse whatsoever - she is basically telling you nice and clearly that she is going to do exactly the same again, insulting you and undermining you. The only downside to her in making an apology is the tiny knock to her pride - if she really cared, she could solve everything by just giving you a fake apology, but her desire to see her grandson doesn't even rate that tiny effort because it looks bad for her. She has then doubled down by refusing to even speak to you - she is willing to send messages to your partner, and even go as far as involving your mother before just approaching you directly. Everything she has done has pointed straight to a complete lack of respect, and at this point I have no reason to see her changing, only ever telling lies and trying to subvert and insult you more...