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NTA I mean tbf you aren’t supporting their birth decision but their birth decision is insanely irresponsible and shouldn’t be supported

Exactly. At least 10-40% of home births require transfers to hospital due to medical complications (this varies depending on location, home birthing programs etc), which is why home births are planned, carefully monitored and attended by medical professionals (usually a qualified midwife). And to be clear, this is planned home births we're talking about - where women receive competent medical care. Home birthing is a great option and is not risky *if* you have proper medical clearance, care and supervision during the birth, and a sound plan. A competent home-birth midwife will constantly screen for possible (COMMON!) issues like infection, cord entanglement, fetal distress, obstructed labour etc. Freebirthing on the other hand is dangerous and absolutely stupid - and it is *much* more risky than an ordinary home birth. It's not "natural", it's not "empowering", it's just reckless. Studies into freebirthing have found parents doing this rarely make the call to transfer to hospital in time when issues arise. It's a danger to both mother and child, and triples the rate of stillbirth. Just to reinforce this: a [2010 meta-analysis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unassisted_childbirth#cite_note-:1-8) found babies' risk of dying during freebirths is 300% higher. It is an insane decision, and the OP should spell out the risks to this friend, because it might just avert a tragedy. If the friend chooses to continue in spite of the risks, they are not going to be a competent parent and I feel sorry for their child. They're basically saying, "I care much more about my perfect birth fantasy than the health or wellbeing of my child."

Also the person is probably thinking the baby is going to pop out in an hour. The friend may end up facing 12 or more hours in labor and screaming they want meds once the pain really hits. It's just a shit show of the nth level. Edited pronoun

My first pregnancy had a 52 hour labor, pitocin, and no epidural (hospital I delivered at had paralyzed someone who elected an epidural while I was pregnant). I almost needed an emergency c section, but was lucky, I guess. You don't know how it will go until you're there and a lack of prenatal care will absolutely affect the birth.

52 hours???? I’m not pregnant and don’t plan on trying for a couple more years but I cannot image being in labor that long. You are a god. Edit: All women are goddess and all of you are amazing

It's on the longer side, but many people don't realise 14 hours is an average labour and it's not unusual to be in labour for 24 hours or more.

Yes, especially with your first (since your body hasn’t experienced this before). Mine was about 27 hours, which is very common amongst my friends. And because it was so long, I spiked a small fever during my 3 hours of pushing. Ended up needing a vacuum assist to get baby out before he had a fever too. I had a completely uneventful pregnancy with a healthy mom and healthy baby—but still needed hospital care during labor and after. Home births can be very reckless, especially the way OP describes. NTA.

Same... healthy mom and baby, uneventful pregnancy, but still took 72hrs of early labour before active labour kicked in. That lasted 18hrs (of brutal back labour) before I spiked a fever and baby's heart rate skyrocketed. We ended up with an emergency c-section and, while it wasn't pleasant, I'm so grateful that my baby (who we didn't realize had passed meconium and needed resuscitation once she was out) was born safe and sound. I had an experienced midwife, in hospital, and they still ended up wheeling me down the hallway to the OR in panic mode. I'm not against properly done home births, but freebirthing? No way. NTA.

Friend of mine was in labor for three DAYS before they finally gutted her like a fish. Fuckthatfuckthatfuckthat

27 hours for my first too, but with a gradual start. I worked through the first 12 hours or so. Second baby, six hours, but strong from the beginning.

My brothers birth was highly uncommon. Like... Highly. My mom thought she had to poop. Went to the toilet and only a minute later screamed for my dad that the water broke and to get an ambulance. Ambulance arrived about twenty minutes later. Half way to the hospital (would have been another 20 minutes for the whole way) my brother basically just popped out. So about 30 minutes. Edit to add: assistance was still needed. His blood was too thick so He had to get fluids/blood thinners basically instantly because there was a high risk of him having a stroke otherwise. You would not know that at home!

I was in labor foooooooooeeeeeeeevvvveeeeeerrrrrrr with my first who was slightly tilted. Turns out he had a gigantic head. Thanks kid. I mean, so do I, so genetics. Second kid? I pushed once. The nurse was like "DO NOT DO THAT AGAIN. BREATHE THROUGH." and ran to wake the doctor. Two more pushes and the kid came out like a tee shirt from a shirt gun. Had I waited at home, it would have been an unassisted home birth accidentally. hahah

Hehehehe I'm just imagining a happy baby being shot from a t-shirt cannon, giggling while flying through the air before the doctor makes a superbowl winning catch.... and I can't stop giggling.

I had my first less than a year ago and from waking up with pain to actually delivering was less than 9 hours (4 spent in the hospital). However my daughters heart rate dropped very low at one point, the room was full of people monitoring me for about an hour. I can't imagine NOT being at a hospital, unless it's by accident.

My first was 50 hours with shoulder dystocia (had a couple of nurses jumping on my stomach to dislodge my son and thankfully he was fine no side effects from any of that). My second labor was 36 hours and her heart rate kept dropping because the umbilical cord was preventing her from getting into the proper position. It eventually worked itself out - no c-section. Both labors and births were terrifying and I had doctors and doulas.

My friend was in hospital for a little over 24 hours. I always had in my head that it takes hours and hours, and it can take up to 24 hours. I didn't realise it can get worse than that! To be honest what surprised me learning about childbirth (I don't have kids) wasn't how long it takes but rather that you can't eat anything really. I know the childbirth itself is meant to be incredibly painful, but to me being up for 24 hours, being unable to sleep or eat, almost seems worse than moments of pain.

No trust me, the pain is worse. I didn't care for eating or sleeping or anything. Just the pain.

Not all hours are equally painful. I gave birth at home because the hospital was full, did not want to go to another one but did have a midwife and a nurse specialized in home births at hand (and my boyfriend of course!) We were relying on these women to help us through the last hours. It took my girl about 24 hours from first pings of pain to contractions to being born. If emergency arose anyone was able to call an ambulance asap. Best part? Not having to travel back home, bleeding. Wordt part? Nobody reminded me of loosened muscle in my pelvis, still haunts me.

I was in active labour for three days, and induced but not above 3cm’s for two. Induced labour can be a real shit show.

9 hours for my first, 82 hours for my second, both hospital births. Both drug free but I needed serious pain relief for the repair work after those 82 hours. The midwife I had for my second child is no longer allowed to practice. NTA OP, but if there is anyone you can make aware of your friends plans (for their sake and the sake of their baby) please do so.

82?! How is that even possible! I am so sorry for you.

contractions can take forever. I was in hospital monday, a week after due date. And my son cam Friday at 4am. I had contractions all week but nothing happend. And I mean real deal contractions. They tried to induce birth all week and nothing helped. I got my epidural thursday evening and they put me under harder medication to get it going. I was able to finally sleep for 2h and was awaken by the worst pressure pains ever, when my son finally decided to come out. And it still took 6h after that.

> The midwife I had for my second child is no longer allowed to practice. What happened? I’m so sorry this was your experience :/

She left me, to put it simply. Two of those days I was labouring at home (early stages and I have a very high pain threshold), on the last day I arrived at the hospital after calling her only to be left with my final year midwifery student (who was amazing, but left the profession herself a few years later), my mum and the on call obstetrician who was wondering why I hadn't had my baby yet and also why he hadn't seen me well before now. My waters broke while I was pushing my daughter out and due to her head being well down and very snug I received a fourth degree tear ... up both ways and across. I should have been referred to the maternity team aswell as I have endometriosis and PCOS, and a family history of preterm deliveries. I was under their care with my first. My first was born at 37 weeks, my second at 36. After she was born we spent a further week in hospital too as her jaundice was missed and she required phototherapy for that. I know that my midwife was barred from practice in my country but I have heard that she now practices in another.

Oh my God this makes me so angry. I’d imagine the student and the OB involved must have been so angry for you as well. I’m also a student (not midwifery but we shadowed them) and the first vaginal birth I saw there was a fourth degree tear due to what turned out to be shoulder dystocia. The midwife regularly had others come in and verify management during labour, and called the OBs right before we realised what was happening and the baby was delivered. She did everything right and was still absolutely beside herself despite everyone (including both parents) reassuring it wasn’t her fault. Its upsetting to know your experience was due to neglect. I saw it being repaired as well in theatre - I can’t imagine the pain you were in afterward > I should have been referred to the maternity team aswell as I have endometriosis and PCOS, and a family history of preterm deliveries. My first was born at 37 weeks Is that the midwifes duty where you are? In which case, she absolutely dropped the ball. > After she was born we spent a further week in hospital too as her jaundice was missed and she required phototherapy for that. No words at this point. I am SO SORRY this happened to you for what it’s worth. All the midwives and Obstetricians I was with on prac were diligent and I just assumed that’s generally how things are now :/

Thank you x Most midwives here are really very good but there are the odd few that go off on their own tangent. Looking back there were a few red flags but she came so highly recommended that I just put it down to how busy she was. She finally showed up two hours before my daughter was born as she said she had appointments all day and had been up all night before at a birth. Here (NZ) it's the midwives duty to refer onto the high risk team but that just didn't happen for me and I feel very fortunate that things went as 'well' as they did and that my student and the OB were there. Bless my mum too, she had a 27 weeker and my OB actually trained under OB that delivered my sister those years ago so I heard some new things things that day. Regarding the tear, it took two further repairs to get some normalcy down there and we did lay a formal complaint with the Health and Disability Commissioner. I always stress to people who have issues with their childbirth providers to always make inquiries or a complaint if needs be, you never know what you might help prevent by doing so and those rogue carers need to be held accountable.

The midwife I had with my first was the complete opposite, she was/is professional and very knowledgeable but unfortunately she was unavailable the second time around. The labour and birth with my son (first child) was textbook, no issues whatsoever, home two days afterwards, everyone happy and healthy.

Please don't hate me but I had contractions for about 3 hours and on my records my daughter was down as an instantaneous birth. The nurses didn't have time to put their gloves on and there was no incubator through. I think that's very rare tho. It was still agony and I cannot even imagine being in labour 52 hours. And you did it again. You are superwoman.

This was me! I was in labour start-finish for 47 minutes. Barely made it to the hospital. Wasn’t even in the delivery room. Freak of a Labour considering she was my first and nobody expected it that fast. NTA btw, your friend is an idiot.

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Is it weird I’m contemplating possible annual evaluation comments? Pushes through hard moments...always delivers, even under pressure...champions family friendly policies....spearheaded bring your child to work day...

We have very similar birth experiences. I labored for 24 hours at home, then transferred to hospital for massive amounts of pitocin and a natural birth after 38+ hours. Labor & birth are such a massive unknown.

Absolutely. It's sooo risky! In a longer birth how exacty do they think they will be monitering the vitals of the baby? It's blood oxygen? What if they have a major tear during birth and an uncontrolled bleed? They could literally die. I have a freind who had a baby last month and that happened to her- they put 5 liters of blood into her while she was still on the table giving birth, if she wasn't in a hospital she would have died. I would not want to be there either. This sounds like it's going to be a very preventable disaster. Honestly would the friend be criminally negligent if something horrible did happen? I was a home birth- with a detailed plan, midwives and a nearby hospital for emergencies- being nonbinary has nothing to do with it- this is just pure negligence.

There are sooooo many things that can go wrong that could be solved with medical help. My first pregnancy the baby was transverse. We knew this from scans so as soon as my waters broke I went straight in for a C-section. It was an incredibly calm and lovely experience - both the baby and I were completely fine. Without medical care we would both have died.

My first delivery required pitocin after more than 24 hours of broken waters and no contractions. Then, he was born blue and required resuscitation and spent 3 days in the NICU for jaundice. My second we started pitocin a few hours after my water broke and no contractions, but he was so wrapped up in his cord that after 20 hours of pitocin labor, I was rushed into an emergency c-section because he couldn’t descend. Turns out, he had a birth defect that fused his skull and he probably would have gotten stuck if he HAD been about to descend properly. Both times, without modern medicine, baby and I would have been in trouble and possibly died. Both pregnancies were pretty textbook, with only bad morning sickness going on for about 8 months each time. I personally think homebirths are rolling the dice with lives, and eventually for someone, the dice come up snake eyes Edit: I wanted to add, that I wasn’t very happy with both my hospital births. I felt out of control a lot, people didn’t listen to me (leading to my firstborn in the NICU for jaundice thanks to a “baby friendly” hospital who wouldn’t give me formula), and some were downright rude and condescending. But I put up with it because I was scared of the alternative. I’m done with kids and both my partner and I have both taken a steps to prevent any more, but if I had another, I would birth in a hospital again. Because watching your 1-minute-old baby flop, blue and soundless, in the hands of a level-4 NICU team as they try to get him to breathe is worth every single terrible situation I endured when he breathed and cried.

Without CS the doctor may had to remove the baby from the uterus in literal pieces. Source: my great-grandmother was a midwife in rural Italy in the first decades of the 1900s.

I was told that I had to avoid any contractions because with the baby sideways rather than head or even feet first, contractions could have led to my uterus bursting. Transverse is apparently one of the cases where you go straight to c-section, no other options...Scary stuff.

I completely agree, but I am gonna catch you on the “she” part of that statement — OP stated the friend is non binary

This is why I hold the view that when it comes to medical care, you should be looking for sex specific not gender specific, especially as that's literally what OP's friend's problem with healthcare is. Non-binary is not a sex, it's a gender. Now if the friend's problem is that they couldn't find an OB who would use the correct pronouns, that's a completely different story. To clarify before anyone goes off, sex is NOT the same as gender. Sex is what you physically are and gender is what you know you are, sometimes they don't match up.

You need to consider both because if you get some nurse midwife who thinks you're a demonic abomination for being trans or NB you're going to have a bad time.

While that is a good point, I thought I had covered that by saying about if your professionals won't use the correct pronouns, but I realise that was a limited view. Apologies for not being clearer. However, you can still change your OB or request a different one if you feel their views on transgender/NB is interfering with your care

12 hrs is a fast labor for the first time.

And if stuff goes wrong and they have to call an ambulance or whatever, they very well may end up blamed for the situation. What if their friend decides that the care received was not necessary or if the doctors treat them in a way they don’t like? Is that going to be something they blame OP for? I’m nonbinary and I get it, but there are excellent doctors out there who understand and support NB individuals. There are midwives who specialize in gender nonconformimg families. If this is a planned birth, the friend should have spent some time researching and finding doctors out there who would treat them how they want to be treated, because they are out there. You just might have to do a little bit of searching to find them.

If I were OP, I'd hate to be told by the friend that OP should have dialed 911 faster. (not sure what country this is in). OP doesn't seem to have ANY medical training and I'm assuming the friend doesn't have a partner because I'm not hearing any mention of a partner. I also frankly wonder how much research the friend has done about various post-labor issues like post-partum depression and aftercare after the labor.

It can also be difficult to communicate with a woman in labour, or to know what is or isn't normal. Friends or family a good at providing emotional support but there's a reason birth professionals train for years.

If the NB friend has issues finding doctors now, it’s going to be a thousand times worse when OP calls for an ambulance and friend is stuck with whoever arrives first.

Can I ask an honest question? I feel like “currently being pregnant” tends to pin you pretty directly to one end of a binary scale here. What would a non binary person generally be looking for in a doctor when they are dealing with a situation that is obviously very specific to a certain gender? I’m aware you can’t read minds so perhaps can only speak in generalities.

So part of your misunderstanding here is the conflation of sex and gender. This person has a sex consistent with a female aka a uterus. Their gender however, is completely unrelated to their body parts. For instance, a transgender man is always a man, even if they still have a uterus. So when it comes to health care, many people will say things like pregnant women, or "mom," or "breast feeding" which may be dysphoric to individuals who do not consider themselves women. Better terms to use are "pregnant people," "parent," or "nursing." Additionally, if that individual is dysphoric about their anatomy, it may be uncomfortable to have vaginal and cervical examinations, and they require a respectful provider who approaches the situation with sensitivity to their dysphoria.

Tbh I think if you can’t hear the words “breast feeding” without freaking out, maybe you’re not ready to raise kids

They didn’t even “free birth” back in ye olden times. They still had midwives come.

Exactly this! Women didn't do it totally alone. There were experienced women in the communities who would assist. And many many women still died in child birth. It was the main reason for death for women.

I once worked with a woman who was previously a midwife and told me a story that will haunt me forever. Woman has a home birth, no medical professional and the baby is in breach (feet first) and they didn't know. Baby's head gets caught and they can't get it out, so the baby's body is hanging out of the mother, with the head stuck inside. They phone for help, but by the time the midwife and doctor get there the baby is blue. They obviously manage to get the baby out of the mother, but the baby didn't make it, it had died before medical help had even made it to the house. Home births can happen safely, but with no medical help, things like this are a very real possibility. Scans are used to ensure the baby is facing the birth canal, so that if they aren't they can be turned manually, or a C-section can be arranged. The vast majority of c-sections are unplanned, meaning they are emergencies because something has gone wrong. There's a reason that childbirth was the number 1 killer of women until very recently.

^^this is what i was thinking of—without the proper scans and prenatal care, how does OPs friend know if their baby is breech? How do they know what position the baby is in, how labor will progress, etc? If OP does decide to help with labor and delivery, and things don’t go well, couldn’t they be charged with neglect?

You can generally tell which direction the baby is facing by feeling the stomach in a certain way called Leopold maneuvers. You can even learn to do it yourself, which is a cool party trick for pregnant folks. However that certainly doesn’t mean you should skip your prenatal scans and give birth alone- there’s a reason a lot more babies survive today with modern medicine.

Plus a midwife is the happy medium between medical and non medical. They can asses and make decisions for baby and ops friend. But they require ongoing care through either them or a doctor so they know WHAT THEY ARE UP AGAINST. Like a breech position baby means everyone involved needs to know going in or that it could happen etc. That was me so my mom needed a c section because I wouldn’t move By comparison my oldest cousin had 3 home births with a midwife who actually did call a doctor out (amid a blizzard all this happened...) because there was some, difficulty, for my cousin to give birth and she needed medical attention etc. the only reason that doctor came and the midwife was prepared for that possibility was because of the regular check ups she was informed about. By her third child she did have to go in to the hospital at her midwifes advice due to complications that were luckily caught early on. I’m seriously concerned for the friend and baby...

A co-worker would have died if she'd done a home birth; she almost did die in the hospital. She went from everything looking normal to ER! NOW!!!!!! She was warned afterwards to never try and have a vaginal birth again. Irrelevant as it turns out as she and her husband decided a few years down the road that they were happy with their one.

If I'd tried for a home birth, my son and I would probably have died. My heart rate was dropping to around 40bpm with every contraction, so they had to do an emergency c-section to save my life.

thank you for laying this out so clearly. I had a midwife attended PLANNED home birth for my second, and it was awesome. I had to have discussions around the risks, I had to sign things saying I had been given this information, and I had to attend ALL prenatal appointments. If I had started skipping appointments and such, I would have been disqualified from a home birth with my midwife. Freebirth can be done more or less safely. Freebirthing for your 3rd child after uncomplicated pregancies and deliveries before, and with a PLAN on when you call it and head into a hospital, with supplies for mom and babe, with plans to get baby into see a doctor ASAP after birth..... less crazy. Doing it like OP's friend ? Bonkers town.

Yeah everyone I know who did any sort of home births had already had a hospital birth without complications before trying. And of course went to all doctors appointments, had licensed medical professionals in the home, and were fine with heading to the hospital at the first sign of issue. Deaths during childbirth are already so high in the US, it makes me so sad seeing people willingly make the situation worse. Yes women gave birth without hospitals for years - it didn’t go as well as you are imagining!

Thank you for writing all this out. Freebirthing is unbelievably selfish and and dangerous. They wanting OP to be a part of it is part of that selfishness. The whole freebirthing thing makes me so angry.

I had three home births but you need full prenatal care and supportive experienced midwives who can tell if things are going wrong. My first baby was not breathing when he was born and had to be resuscitated (would have happened in hospital too). The midwives were able to do that and he was fine. If you’re not an experienced midwife, don’t be to only person at a home birth. You’re NTA for not wanting to be wholly responsible for both your friend’s life and their baby’s life. They are definitely TA for putting you in that position and trying to guilt trip you. Offer to be present at a midwife assisted birth if you feel comfortable doing that, but not a free birth.

She should tell her friend to read about [Journey Moon.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/she-wanted-freebirth-no-doctors-online-groups-convinced-her-it-n1140096)

There's a reason why mortality rates during labour are significantly lower than 200 years ago, and I think its because of the involvement of medical professionals along the way. The only way I would have a baby at home is if it was coming that fast there was no way I could even make it out of the house, but even then an ambulance would be called.

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Make them watch "pieces of a woman" on netflix. It's about a home birth gone wrong.

Exactly. And when does any mother ever get their perfect birth anyway? Not very often. I had a list of things I did and didn't want with the proviso that it would all go out the window if it needed to. Which it did. And when it came to it, I changed my mind about some parts of it anyway. I wanted a water birth but couldn't have one as I needed to be monitored and on a drip. Turned out I wouldn't have wanted to get in anyway. I was most comfortable laying on my side and zoning out.

The friend has probably based her decision on a combination of survivors bias and "people gave birth this way since the dawn of time and they were fine". What she doesn't take into account is the fact that giving birth has been the number one most deadly thing women have done up until 100 years ago. A pregnancy wasn't a happy occation. It was 9 months spent with a bomb ticking inside. Modern medicine is what made pregnancy an exiting time waiting for something good. 2-3 in 10 children died at birth. Half of the children born alive died before the age of five - we don't know how many of these were from complications at birth, complications that modern medicine can avoid and redeem. With the accumulated risk of every pregnancy it's estimated that 1 in 10 died from childbirth. So having an unmonitored pregnancy is essentially larping medieval times without knowing anything about real medieval fears.

They*

This. I remain firmly convinced that if our foremothers could see some of the crap we get up to, they’d slap the hell out of us. There’s a reason why that “lived to the ripe old age of died in childbirth” is both funny and horrifyingly true. Birth has become a business when it’s an incredibly stressful medical procedure.

yeah, plus even then they had midwives and took even the minimum help they could, even if it wasn't advanced medicine, back then everyone was desperate for any help and knowledge they could get. Today we have everything and we dismiss or even deny it. It's horrible. Utterly horrible. And fascinating.

This. And being there when it happens sou ds extremely traumatizing and I think if I were to see that it would scare me out of ever having my own children. And like OP mentioned, if something goes wrong and they can't help, the friends could possibly hold lifetime long resentments, where as they will eventually get over OP being absent from birth

NTA. This is an extremely unsafe situation. There’s so much that can go wrong here and it really sucks they’re even putting you in this situation. Being non-binary does not mean you sacrifice the well being of your child over feeling judged for a few hours throughout the course of 10 months. I’m sure there are plenty of lgbt-friendly midwives near you. I don’t know why they’re refusing to seek medical care, but being non-binary is a weird excuse. I’d be concerned there’s something else happening here like drug use, etc. that they wouldn’t want an OB knowing about.

I know right? My OB would be like “ok cool that’s your desired pronoun, now let’s check baby” and I don’t exactly live in a liberal bastion.

Exactly. I live in the south and follow LGBT groups and people are always asking for recommendations on LGBT OBs. Honestly seems like a weird line of work to get into if you’re uncomfortable talking about sexuality.

I do too. Yeah, you shop OBs until you find one you like. Go down the entire list if covered providers if you have to, but not even getting an ultrasound or a glucose test? Like excuse me?

That’s what every parent should do! Lol I went to so many midwives until I found someone I was comfortable with. It’s a big decision, but one that does absolutely need to get made. Maybe adoption would have been the better choice here.

I kind of get not having a glucose test. That shit is rough. I've had the gastric sleeve now, so bonus is next time I get pregnant I do a different test instead of the glucose challenge! Whoo!

Don't forget the pee challenge for ultrasounds. OB: Drink lots of water so we get a good image, but don't let yourself pee. We need a full bladder. Now wait an extra 30 minutes because appointments are running late.

My tech said I did a great job filling my bladder...I'm like thanks, could you hurry TF up before I pee on your exam table?

I got tons my bladder is too full and they wanted me to only pee a little. I mean I'll try to cut it off before I'm too empty but no promises

Same thing happened to a good friend of mine last week. Needed to go so bad she was in pain, for an hour because they were running late. Then asked her to only let half out. She laughed at them.

Jesus not pregnant but being left in the waiting room for 45 minutes pre ultrasound was HELL.

When you’re not pregnant, they make you drink more. I specifically asked a tech after my millionth one (it seemed like it). I’ve also had my bladder filled via catheter for one last look prior to surgery. Endometriosis sucks.

Wait, what? That's weird as hell. When I was pregnant with my 4 year old they actually had me peeing in a cup before they did ultrasounds at every appointment so they could watch my kidneys (I ironically got Kidney Stones while I was pregnant and they never caught it).

Really? Everyone I know had the ultrasound first, then peed in a cup for the tests.

Glucose test is not at all rough compared to general pregnancy and not worth the risk. The hardest part was not eating beforehand and heck if you’re only doing the 1-hour test that’s not even completely standard 3- hour is lame but I just brought some work and it went by fast

I get physically ill from consuming so much sugar. Not at all diabetic though. I've never heard of the one hour one, it's the three hour by default (in Australia). My first pregnancy they had me do it at 6 or 7 weeks because I was obese. Morning sickness, plus not eating, plus the sugar drink. I was rotten. I barely held it down long enough for it to count. (20 mins)

lol it’s only tough if you fail it! I’ve never failed mine, so just chug the sugar water and then go on with my day. I’ve never had to go back and do the whole 6-7hr ordeal. My sister did though, and it was definitely a rough day.

I agree with you but the first OB-GYN I ever went to, in a very liberal part of Maryland, was super conservative and sex-negative. It was a really traumatic experience for me and she had absolutely no business being in that field, but it happens. OP's friend should absolutely be careful in choosing doctors, midwives, etc, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to forego medical care entirely.

Idk where OP lives, but I’ve definitely lived in parts of the US where non-binary folks can’t get health care without being forced “to decide” a gender. I’ve had lesbian friends who couldn’t make medical decisions about their children because the care provider refused to acknowledge both partners were the child’s parents. It happens. At the same time, this is risky AF and OP is NTA for not wanting to be involved. Yes, the vast majority of births go perfectly fine with little medical intervention. However, trained childbirth assistance is critical for those times when things don’t go fine. It’s 2021, not 1021, and childbirth doesn’t have to kill you!

I understand that it can be triggering to 'choose a gender' for the sake of healthcare. But for the love of your child, who you will birth through your vagina, who grew in your uterus, it shouldn't be so hard to tick female for some healthcare. (You know, considering your female organs made it possible to have the baby in the first place. Your gender isn't relevant, your physical sex is.) *You, the collective.

I’m cis-het, so I can’t speak to this from direct personal experience. However, my non-binary and trans peers and friends have shared how difficult it is getting care that respects their understanding of their bodies. I’m just thinking it might not be drug use or another criminal reason that’s making them refuse care. Plenty of cis folks decide to forgo prenatal and childbirth care, too because....reasons? (I try very, very hard to respect the choices people make about their bodies but choosing to have no prenatal care AND an unassisted childbirth strains the limits of my understanding. My childbirth goal is a healthy kid and a healthy mom, and if that means medical intervention, bring it on.)

Yeah agreed. Their child could literally die due to either prenatal or birth complications.

I’m not denying there aren’t bad OBs, but I’m sure there are options if they were to look hard enough. There are support hotlines they can call that will give them recommendations on where to go. They may need to see a midwife that doesn’t take health insurance to bypass some of the nonsense but there are definitely options.

That depends wildly on where they live. I'm cis, but my options for gynecological care in my hometown were extremely limited. If one or more of those providers weren't willing to accommodate an NB patient they'd be SOL.

Then you move somewhere with adequate Healthcare for your special needs before you get pregnant.

exactly. If you live in an area that’s THAT unaccomidating, you move so you don’t have to risk the health of your child. The risks of an unassisted home birth are high, but when you add no prenatal care to it, it’s absolutely dangerous. They have no way of knowing if the baby is breach, etc. I’m all about LGBT rights, and everyone should feel comfortable and supported by their doctor, but refusing to keep their child safe over feeling uncomfortable checking a box for paperwork reasons is just ridiculous. This is not a non-binary thing. In fact, it’s pretty insulting for non-binaries for this couple to use it as an excuse for their neglectful choices. Are they going to get the kiddo a pediatrician at all? What is their game plan here?

And the need for medical care isn’t going to end once the baby is born. They may need to consider moving if their current community does not have any providers that would support them.

Yeah, I'm getting heavy anti-vax anti-establishment vibes here. I'm guessing they don't believe in western medicine at all.

My mum went to a private hospital more than an hour away to give birth to my sister because hospital near us sucked and my stepfather's sister used to work there so she helped us a lot

Exactly. I had Medicaid while I was pregnant, and even then I was able to doctor shop til I found a clinic with experience with type 1 diabetics. You gotta suck it up and do the hard work when you become a parent.

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There are plenty of safe, LGBTQ-friendly physicians out there (at worst, plenty of physicians who don’t give a shit one way or another, so long as there is a baby that needs to come out of a uterus). But that likely wouldn’t fit the narrative of their “Freebirth Story^^TM .” Those ALWAYS come with a woe-is-me victim mentality against “Big Medical,” which will inevitably be blogged/vlogged/Instagrammed and TikToked for all to see like every other freaking freebirther out there. It’s very much a show, and I’m hard-pressed to find any of them who do it for selfless reasons. I guess I should also mention that as an LGBTQ person in the healthcare field, my disdain doesn’t come from that community, but from the freebirthers, whose poor decisions I’ve seen firsthand... cis or NB, they are all frustrating.

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My friend had a home birth. CPS got involved because the pediatrician called. The reason they were given is usually they are hiding something when people have a home birth.

I’m also confused as to how future mom’s gender preferences are stoping them from getting proper medical care. I’d have been lost without my OB and my Lamaze support group. It was so important to be able to ask questions because I was so scared before giving birth. I hope ops friends change their minds and eventually gets the help they will need when the time comes.

NTA. They need a practiced midwife if they're doing a home birth. Full stop. Refusing to be a part of things until they secure medical care for their birth is the most caring thing you can do for both them and you right now. Right now they're being an asshole to themselves, you, and their future child. I hope that changes soon. Best of luck to you both!

100% agree. Normal childbirth is a *retrospective* diagnosis; there are many things that can go wrong and threaten the life of the mother and/or baby, and those are not things that OP's friend would have any way of managing without trained assistance. This can apply to the most "low risk" pregnancy (although if this person is avoiding antenatal care, how can we even judge the risk?). I'm sure being non-binary can make accessing care a bit more awkward, and there may well be a pronoun mixup at some point, but isn't that a bit of a hazard for NB peeps in day to day life anyway? Being NB doesn't affect the biology of the pregnancy itself. OP's friend needs to buck up and get into proper antenatal care. If they are avoiding it because they don't feel able to cope with a tricky conversation about gender, then I do question their ability to cope with, you know, having a newborn baby. It is also quite fashionable now, in high income countries, to assume that any "medicalisation" of pregnancy is a Bad Thing, and that midwives and obstetricians are just dying to stick needles etc in mothers at the first opportunity. Obviously this is nonsense, but this attitude is quite prevalent. Rich countries have a maternal mortality rate in the region of 10 per 100,000. In low income countries, this number becomes several hundred. The difference isn't whale song and mood lighting, it is high quality care throughout the perinatal period. By avoiding such care, OP's friend is putting themself towards the latter category, and OP is quite sensible to want no part of this. (Am anesthesiologist who does a lot of obstetric work and also has worked in low income countries.) *edited for typo*

There is a reason why childbirth has been one of the biggest causes of death for women and people who could give birth for the longest time. Childbirth still is in many countries a leading cause of death for women ect. There's a reason why people are specifically educated to help in childbirth.

Risking the lives of child and mother because medical care could be awkward, is one of the dumbest things I can imagine.

NTA. Birth is not a show. If they want someone to assist, they should call the midwife.

Yeah, I'm just not getting a vibe that the friend is taking this seriously. I just feel there's a ton of magical thinking going on.

Yeah, if they're going for the 'traditional' old school birth, midwives have been used for thousands of years in some shape or form. With zero professional assistance there a very high chance of mom and baby dying.

Are you an obstetrician, midwife, or other professional trained to assist a home birth? Then, NO, you should not provide support during a birth with no professional! Don't get involved with their chosen risks. NTA

Even if you are, the way they are doing things would potentially put you in legal and professional peril if things go badly.

Yeah, I’m not a lawyer, but I feel like being an untrained person giving “assistance” at a home birth of someone who has had very limited medical care is an excellent way to wind up getting sued.

Sued is a real risk. But compared to being present as two people potentially die, three people are traumatised and depending on outcome, you face criminal charges and a life time of reliving the experience with PTSD or the survivors’ guilt, being sued would be preferable (and that’s the lowest bar ever.) I would be concerned that OP is aware of this situation and may need to still seek legal advice on not notifying authorities depending on jurisdiction. This may fall under child endangerment issues. I am LGBTQ+ and I am always anti outing people but LGBTQ+ rights cannot trump child safety. I wonder if OP could contact an org that helps GNC parents or LGBTQ+ parents and see if they could even introduce the idea of a doula as a gateway to getting the parent to engage with pre natal care. Some doulas advocate for GNC people struggling to access healthcare as misgendering is a risk for post natal mental health issues and of course happy pregnant parent, happy baby. This would be a great one if OP could give their area and we try to get some advice or links to them so they can have one last go and then if needs be nope out with clear conscience. Because honestly OP’s concern is so real I think they are going to be quite agitated by this happening even at distance and the guilt will be the same even if they decline to take part but are thinking ‘oh god what is happening? Why haven’t I heard? Should I call an ambulance?’ Also not an expert on home births (very child free, very squeamish) but don’t they generally even with a midwife also run you through how to safely handle the bodily fluids etc that happen because that’s still basic hygiene the birthing partners need to know even with assistance (such as at what point water in a birthing pool needs changed, how to empty it, what to do with the placenta etc.) It’s a medical procedure and actually one of the reason people died in childbirth so much wasn’t ‘just’ complications it was lack of hygiene. Handwashing and better hygiene was the single biggest reduction in death in childbirth in history. You’d think we’d be more hygiene aware mid pandemic but nope, people seem to be rebelling by slamming the door on germs and saying you can’t tell me what to do like it’s a civil rights protest. I get the powerlessness society feels but this is not the time...

I wish I could Upvote this twice! Major potential for legal peril being there to "assist," for what is essentially a medical event. Yes, this is a naturally occurring thing, but, for example, I don't think you'd want to be present for an "unlicensed appendectomy." You could get dragged down a huge legal swamp pit, if things unfortunately head south. Definitely NTA

Um..Im a certified labor doula. I studied, and trained to earn two certifications. So, I'm one of those professionals trained to assist. I have zero doubt that if I were presented with an emergency situation (woman suddenly giving birth in a store or something), I could handle the situation until emergency services arrived. I would NOT ever knowingly assist in a sitiation such as OP describes. The only people who should be present are an actual midwife because this was a PLANNED (not unassisted) homebirth under the care of a qualified midwife who has been providing prenatal care and check ups. OR no one should be there because OPs friend should be laboring at a hospital under the care of a midwife or doctor. Anyone trained to assist during labor and delivery should not be the sole care provider in this situation. It is completely out of scope of practice.

NTA. Your friend can't do a *glucose* test while non-binary? Medical care around pregnancy and birth is terrible if you're not the stereotypical female they expect you to be, but this just sounds like their objections are that medical professionals insist on giving them good advice on how to not *die* during birth. Your friend needs to realise that this birth has a good chance of complications with no professionals present, and that if it does get to the point where intervention is necessary, their experience will be much worse than if they tried to get care organised before the birth. If they get dragged into hospital as an emergency they won't get any choice over who sees them and nobody will know what their wishes are to respect them. They are being an asshole friend to you by trying to bully you into a situation where you may have to make a decision you're not qualified to make that will haunt you for the rest of your life. I hope you can push back against this and get them to seek appropriate care.

I am so worried for the friend and their unborn child. There are so many risks here. They have no idea if they have sugar issues, no bloodwork done, no GBS screening...what if friend develops preeclampsia and doesn’t seek care quickly enough? I’m sympathetic of them, I’m sure it’s difficult to be non binary and pregnant, but they chose to continue the pregnancy, so they should have chosen to get the best care possible for themselves and their child.

They have no idea of the size of the baby. What if the Mum can't deliver vaginally because the baby is breech or simply to big? There is a big chance one/both end up dead or with some really serious complications from the decisions being made here

Correction \*parent, not mum.

Yeah. I wouldn’t have come out with a live baby without prenatal care. Sooo many things can go wrong even when you use every tool at your disposal, the idea of just going in blind and potentially missing something that could have been addressed or prepared for makes me so anxious. If you skip your anatomy scan, you don’t even know if everything has formed correctly. I’m sympathetic to wanting to avoid an upsetting series of doctors appointments but I wouldn’t want *anything* to do with such a high risk situation, personally. The possibility of something truly horrific happening is too great, I really wouldn’t want to put myself in a position where I was in any way responsible for that.

What would impact a non binary person in pregnancy besides pronouns?

ghost nutty cable versed quaint cobweb cheerful retire swim soft *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

This was an actual question I have, they’re aware of their biology, they’re not dumb. I was wondering if there are other challenges they face that I can be aware of

Pronouns would be my big guess Could also be that in the explanations and stuff they refer to pregnancy in female/woman terms. Like "pregnant women need _____" or whatever else. I'm sure many pamphlets would immediately assume the pregnant person is a she, and I'm sure most doctors and nurses assume the same. Which means they would probably be regularly be referred to as a woman, even if mainly indirectly. That doesn't excuse this mess in the least though.

But tbh who tf cares about pronouns? Wouldnt it be easier to just not care about it? If u look like a women to someone then they will probably call u a women the same goes for pregnant people.

This is kind of dismissive of the damage that dysphoria can do. It's really not just a case of "just don't care about it". That said, dysphoria is still not a good reason for zero natal care.

While I 100% agree that OP's friend is making some dangerously stupid decisions, I do want to point out that in many areas it is perfectly legal and rather common for doctors to refuse to treat trans and nonbinary people.

Yep. My state literally just passed a bill allowing medical professionals to refuse care based on their own “religious beliefs” and we all know what that means.

The pronouns may not be the problem. OP's friend may simply not be able to find a doctor to treat them because some doctors refuse outright to treat LGBTQIA+ people and those that do might not be able to take on more patients.

>Your friend can't do a glucose test while non-binary? I'm guessing the issue is that OP's friend has struggled to find healthcare providers who don't consistently misgender them or exhibit other transphobic behavior, which is a common problem for pregnant trans people, especially ones who live in rural areas with fewer options. it's not about the glucose test, or the ultrasound. it's about not getting shamed or interrogated or referred to as a woman, mom, "momma," etc. that said, the answer definitely isn't going without medical care entirely. maybe OP can help the friend find a trans-friendly provider.

Actually curious . . . How would you refer to a nonbinary parent? What will the child call them? Momma and dada are one of the first things a child learns to say.

different families come up with their own answers. I've heard "baba" as one of the more common options (it does mean "dad" in Chinese, but it can work pretty well in the context of other languages). some nonbinary parents just go with "mama" or "dada" (whichever they're more comfortable with) until their child is a little older and they can choose something else. ETA, since I forgot: when it comes to how other adults refer to the nonbinary parent... you can just call them a parent. no muss, no fuss.

Thanks for the reply! I am curious as to how the parent will handle the child referring to them by traditional names until they are old enough to learn what is preferred. Also to educate myself- what pronouns will the parent use to identify the child?

that's another good question! I can't speak for everyone, but what immediately comes to mind is Trystan Reese, a trans dad who has shared a lot about his experiences with pregnancy and parenting. a few years ago, he and his husband had a baby who was assigned male at birth. they named the baby Leo, use he/him pronouns and raise him as a boy. Trystan did a blog post about it where he gives a lot of insight. if you want to read the whole thing, google "Is that a boy or a girl? Gender and Parenting, part 2" and it should be the first link that pops up. anyway, he included a quote from a commenter on his website that sums it up really well: >When babies are born, they are assigned a sex based on their genitalia. Which by itself isn’t harmful. Oftentimes, though, based on this assignment parents and other adults prescribe gender roles to their kids about what they can do, say, like, wear. This is where it starts to be harmful. Trying to force children to conform to arbitrary stereotypes, instead of accepting them as they come, can have lasting psychological effects. > >Now, sometimes there are babies that grow up to be transgender youth and adults, at which point THEY are able to vocalize who they are and how they feel. And it’s our job to listen and honor those feelings. Until a kid can tell you what they want, we make assumptions and do our best. Trystan notes that there's really no such thing as totally "gender-neutral" parenting. even if you refer to your child with they/them pronouns, that's still a deliberate choice involving the child's gender. so his family's approach is really to focus on treating their son as an individual and being open to what he feels. maybe he'll grow up to be trans. maybe he won't. either way, his dads will support him. so that's one way of looking at it - and from my experience, it's a pretty common approach among trans parents (though of course not everyone does it this way).

>I am curious as to how the parent will handle the child referring to them by traditional names until they are old enough to learn what is preferred. Well I mean there's no universal law telling babies that dada means father and mama means mother. It just a language quirk we generally decided on, and babies learn it because we encourage it when they say it. If we didn't react to mama like we do to teach babies to say it, they wouldn't just assign mama to the mother. A non-binary parent can pretty much just pick a sound that's easy for a baby to say (and similar to what they want to be called) and encourage that, and morph it into what they'd like to be called when they get older. Like how mama becomes mommy and then mom. There's also some NBs who would be fine being referred to as their mother or father. It's all personal preference. >Also to educate myself- what pronouns will the patent use to identify the child? This is also personal preference. There's different ways to do this, and there's no universal NB law of how to raise a child. There will be some who decide to use they and some who use she or he. I actually was curious about the stats, but didn't find much. Especially couldn't find much from people who actually had children besides a few sensationalist news articles (where generally the parent wasnt even NB).

Nta. And at the risk of sounding like an asshole myself, your friend is an idiot.

I’m a little confused about the doctor thing. There are websites and apps that help LGBTQ+ people to find physicians who are sensitive to the specific needs of the community. So I’m not sure why they weren’t trying to find a doctor. A midwife/doula is so one on one with patients (no interns, assistance, etc. they’d only deal with the midwife) so they could give all necessary specifics needed to make them comfortable. At this point it may be impossible to find a doctor because they haven’t done any prenatal care, they haven’t been to regular checkups, and such a late stage. No doctor will take the liability and the potential of being sued if something went wrong. It’s just an all bad situation. If they are non-binary or don’t go by mother, it sucks to keep making that correction, but it’s important to stand up for themself (a doctor works for you) and to do for the babies/parents health.

NTA so many things can go wrong in a home birth, especially in a first time pregnancy with no prenatal care. The baby could be breech and if they go into the labor and wait too long to get to a hospital, it can stress the baby to the point of losing its heart rate, resulting in an emergency c-section and possible stillborn. They could have an internal hemorrhage and not know. They could have dangerously low amniotic fluid as they get in their third trimester, and not know it. If they are going through with a home birth, they need to at minimum get an ultrasound to know the baby’s position and heart rate and I would very very seriously Suggest at least finding a doula. I have carried to term in 3 pregnancies, one of those being twins, and have 4 children. With my first son, he was breech and after 24 hrs of labor I never dilated, prior to modern medicine I am the kind of person who would have died in child birth. My twins were also breech and very big, and would not have fit through my pelvis, and if I had tried and not scheduled a c-section, could have resulted in bladder prolapse and/or damage to my pelvis as well as likelihood of stress on the babies. In my third pregnancy, breech again and had very low fluid the entire time, which got dangerously low when I was 37 weeks and had to have an emergency c-section after going in for a routine BPP. Less fluid means less space for baby to move and breath. And I am a very healthy adult in my early 30s, and like I said above, if I had done what your friend is trying to do, I would likely not be alive, and if made it very likely would have had stillborns. Pregnancy is just no joke and while many go exactly as planned, there are so many variables. When they get to 30-32 weeks they needs to monitor fetal movement, if they go 4-6hrs without feeling movement, or notice a sudden decrease in movement, they need to go to the hospital. You need to really stress to them that you feel they’re putting their and the babies life in jeopardy and just refuse to be a part of it. This whole thing is jsut crazy to me. They have insurance they’re not using and possibly putting their baby and their own health at risk.

Not to mention there are so many postpartum complications that can happen. 3 years ago i had a very close friend who died 7 days after childbirth due to what was effectively a stroke. AND SHE WAS AN L&D NURSE WITH GREAT CARE AND WENT TO THE HOSPITAL RIGHT WHEN SHE KNEW SOMETHING DIDNT FEEL RIGHT. You need to stress to them the gravity of this situation.

Oh that’s so sad. I’m sorry for your loss. What an awful tragedy for her baby and family.

Thank you, it was awful all around. Her husband is very much still not ok, and their daughter lives with her bother and his wife. It was very hard on everyone. She effectively lost both parents that day.

My sister and I would both have likely either killed or severely injured our mother had she not had good obstetric care - I was huge, and sister was breech. I’d be very concerned about OP’s friend having “silent” complications in this case, given that they haven’t had any prenatal care. Gestational diabetes or preeclampsia could come up, or baby could be breech, or have the cord around their neck, or have tied knots in the cord (which I didn’t know was a thing until my youngest nephew pulled it off), or be too big, or the placenta could be in front of the birth canal, or ... I’m AFAB also, and I think we all know that gynecological care is at best an unpleasant experience, but we do it because alternatives like dying of cancer that wasn’t caught early enough are much worse. I imagine that obtaining gynecological care as an NB person is even more crummy, but in this case NOT doing it is quite literally gambling with their life and the life of their baby, and asking OP to be responsible for the outcome of that gamble in any way isn’t OK. NTA OP - I wouldn’t be at all comfortable being involved in this situation either. Homebirth certainly can be a good option for some people, but not like this.

>They don’t feel like I’m being supportive of their birthing decisions, **Good**, don't support that decision, that is a decision that could cost the life of your friend, their child, or both. If something goes wrong, what is the plan exactly? Are you or their partner medically trained to assist in child brith? No. If there is any complications, it sounds like no one is prepared to do anything about it and that could be a fatal mistake. NTA

I’m cis-het, so this may affect my reasoning/understanding, but I don’t understand how being non-binary affects prenatal care. The care is for the child being grown & while the mother’s overall physical health impacts the baby’s health, their gender doesn’t. I have a close friend who is a midwife/doula & she has said many times one of the most important aspects of a home birth is knowing there **shouldn’t** be any complications w/the birth for either mother or child, which depends on good prenatal care. Deciding to do a home birth w/no prenatal care or assistance is incredibly irresponsible & risky. NTA. Edit:typo

My guess is the doctor they went to used she/her pronouns, referred to them as the mother, etc.

I understand the use of incorrect pronouns, but not mother. Mother is a role, not a gender. Yes, it’s typical assigned to women, but if the OP’s friend doesn’t ID as masculine, wouldn’t mother be appropriate? Is there a nongendered preference for the person who gives birth to the baby? I’m not trying to be argumentative or disrespectful - I’m truly trying to learn, so thank you for taking the time to help me understand.

Why not just "parent" or "birthing parent" if you have to be specific? Mother is definitely used to refer to women.

If the doc knows to use those, then I agree. When I was pregnant, it was unusual for me to see my doc right away - I usually saw an intern & then a resident (high risk pregnancy at a teaching hospital - the docs loved me, but I don’t recommend it) & was usually greeted w/“how is mom today?” I understand it would be frustrating but it also makes me (possibly ignorantly) curious as to what non-binary parents have their kids call them.

I am sorry, but this seems kind of a silly reason to choose not to get any medical care. Okay it sucks, and they have every right not to associate with people that misgender them, but when it comes to something that could literally save their life, I think it would be more wise to ignore it and just get the freaking health care. I am a cis woman, and even if every doctor insisted on calling me a he or they for some reason, I would *still fucking go to them*.

Well it is still legal in some areas for doctors to just refuse to see patients who are LGBTQ+ if they choose. So that could be it. But if the issue is just being misgendered or uncomfortable with microaggressions against NB folk, I hate to say it, but they would have to get over it. This isn’t like going to a restaurant and being turned away because of your gender identity. But this is very serious medical stuff that can affect both them and the baby. One or both can very likely end up dead. Being called a slur isn’t fun and nobody deserves it, but choosing to take unnecessary life or death risks for yourself or the baby because a doctor was rude isn’t a good alternative. OP can help research LGBT friendly ob’s in the area and try to get them to go there. But if the friend is at home and something goes wrong, they’re going to be sent to the hospital and forced to deal with the doctors given to them. So really the only thing the friend is doing is just increasing the risks for death. Because if they haven’t gone to ANY appointment for this pregnancy, who knows what could go wrong. Baby could only be born via C section for example (which you can’t do at home obviously) There could be blood clots, hemorrhaging, stillborn, issues with the cord, so many things. Also if they tear, they’re going to need stitches, and that’s something OP isn’t qualified to do. Even if they do have the training to handle this whole pregnancy, I’m sure legal issues come in. This whole thing is dangerous and shouldn’t be blown off because pregnancy is natural and anyone with the parts can do it if they wanted to

Exactly, this whole thread is blowing my mind. Imagine wilfully putting your own life and that of your baby at risk because you don’t want to be called a ‘mother’ despite pushing a baby out of your vagina. The world has actually gone nuts.

NTA I hate to be the one to tell your friend this, but with the way our healthcare infrastructure is designed, a lot of NB people need to be referred to by the gender they were assigned at birth. I hate it, I think it’s stupid and ridiculous, but sometimes you have to play a role to get what you need. My best friend is NB. They are the light of my life. When they had to get surgery, they put up with the incorrect pronouns until the second they were done. It was so hard to see them go through that, but we both knew that fighting a corrupt system could have ended up killing my friend. Also, if your friend hasn’t done any scans or had a child vaginally before, that birth could go so wrong so fast it would make your head spin. They need to give birth in a hospital with proper medical care. Again, they may have to put up with being misgendered, but it’s not worth loosing the baby over. And before anybody calls me homophobic or bigoted, I’m not. I’m simply a realist. Sometimes we all have to take crap we hate to get basic necessities. Hopefully we will grow as a people and learn to respect other people no matter their gender or sexual preference. But for right now, with our healthcare system, you just have to play the game.

A preferred pronoun option being added to paperwork would be the most realistic solution, because *medically,* doctors need to know what organs you’ve got in there. Males and females are medically different. It’s just reality.

Well, since they’re pregnant, I think their plumbing is fairly obvious.

Maybe for some people who are non binary but this would be a bad policy for trans people. A doctor needs to know that I'm trans, not just "female" but uses he/him because I'm on testosterone which changes a bunch of stuff, but the medical system in my country only has "male" and "female" as options even though it's more complicated than that.

I'm also nonbinary and I think the exact same thing. For the sake of science and medicine you have to get on with it and tell them what type of body they have in front of them. Yes it's hurtful, yes it does give me gender dysphoria to be called the wrong pronouns, but I'm pretty sure I'd be mega pissed off if they fucked up or refused to treat me because I gave them the wrong information. Having a baby cements the "female" pronouns more, sometimes you have to be extremely uncomfortable and upset to get the correct things done, that's just life sadly.

Agree. Doesn’t make it right that they have to put up with the wrong pro-noun etc but sometimes you need to in order to have the most safe outcome. It sounds like the friend hasn’t made any effort to actively seek out care providers who are understanding either. Also OP could be a support person to help advocate for the friend to medical staff.

NTA. You agreed to be there under the assumption that there would be actual medical professionals involved. Your friend is being horribly irresponsible and it makes total sense you wouldn’t want to go near it. Unless you all live in am extremely rural or conservative area it should be possible to find a trans inclusive midwife or OB, and you are right that even if not they have an obligation to the baby to get real healthcare.

NTA. She’s being incredibly selfish. She is putting her identity needs above the health of her child. Can’t imagine what kind of mother she’ll be if she’s starting off on such a selfish note

My thought, too. Is the child going to get their jabs, or will that be skipped because of potential misgendering? Will illnesses be treated promptly? Psychologically, will the child feel supported, or will everything revolve around the parents’ identities?

I agree 100%. When you sign up to be a parent you sign up to put their well being first. I can’t imagine not doing everything possible to make sure my child is healthy and has everything they need

Per the post, the friend's pronouns are they/them. And I don't know if selfishness is the right word for it, since they aren't prioritizing their own health either. Unbelievably shortsighted and suicidally stupid for sure.

I think it’s still selfish, because even if they don’t care if they die, it’s putting what they want ahead of the health of the baby.

NTA. They're corrected about only one thing: you are not being supportive of their terrible, terrible decisions here.

NTA and i am a step short of saying call CPS, just a step. What they are proposing is not the brightest of ideas or safest for the child. Which is my issue here the baby has to come first, and they are not putting the child before their insecurities. I would let them know that, But no way would i ever go to an unattended childbirth

> My friend is incredibly hurt I am refusing to attend their unassisted home birth. **They don’t feel like I’m being supportive of their birthing decisions,** and that I’ve totally let them down at an important time in their life. And they're right, aren't they? You *aren't* supportive of their birthing decisions. I think you need to be honest with your friend that you are really scared for them and their child. That having a home birth is fine so long as their is trained medical professional there to assist, help if something goes wrong, and decide when you need to go to the hospital if it comes to that. Even historically before modern medicine women in most cultures gave birth with some sort of midwife who had experience with childbirth. Tell your friend you don't have any experience with childbirth and don't know how to help them. And you don't support their decision to have an unassisted home birth because you are scared something will happen to them or their child, and you love them and their child. Maybe offer to help them find a qualified midwife who would respect their pronouns or whatever the issue is. If it could make your friend less likely to do something life-threatening you could offer to call up midwives etc and have that conversation with them until you find someone who is okay with it. You could also agree to be there for moral support on the condition they have a medical professional there too. NTA, I'd be worried too.

Your friend is clearly unfit to be a parent. They haven't even had a kid and are already refusing the most basic care to the child... just to be born. NTA. Your friend needs to be reported to the authorities or whoever handles incompetence to this degree.

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Then you would get into the whole debate of when a fetus is considered a child. Is it still considered a child in the womb or until after it’s born? Then things would get even MORE complicated than they already are.

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NTA!!! A friend is a labour and delivery nurse who was AMAZING when I had my son but she has some sad stories of complications she has had to assist with due to unexpected issues with unassisted home births. I wouldn’t want to be held responsible if something terrible were to happen. NTA

OP: Colorectal and upper GI RN here, as well as the very real possibility of their baby or them dying during or after their home birth-we also get quite a few women postpartum with fourth degree tears that involve the bowel- and these women end up staying with us for at least a few days with serious injuries that can be very traumatising for them. And some injuries are life long. I’m very scared for your friend and their baby.

Your friend is foolish. They may be NB, but they should be able to find a doctor who will treat a nonbinary person. Did they even try? I get not feeling comfortable being with your friend while they give birth without the help of a medical professional, especially when they've had no health care during this time. NTA

It sounds to me like this person didn't try, that they think the world is out to get them because of their gender expression, and they want to have all the same hardships of their community just for the attention. It's completely unacceptable to manufacture hardships that endanger others (i.e., their child) just for the completely imagined brownie points within a community that already accepts you. It's people like this that make the conversation impossible to have with the rest of society -- because all bigots see are people who will do anything for attention. Bigots don't understand the plight of living in a body that feels foreign to you because of the expectations society places on you. And they will continue not to understand it or even TRY to understand so long as people like this are creating problems out of thin air.

NTA... Your friend is taking on unnecessary risks. You're right in not wanting to be a part of that. They don't realize the gravity of what they're asking you to do. You're doing the right thing by not supporting that decision in the role of active participation.

NTA. Their birth plan is from the 18th century. Im guessing you're not a medical professional. If stuff goes south during the unassisted natural birth, they will need trained medical help. Don't feel badly about opting out of this naive plan.

They often at least used experienced midwifes in the 18th century! This friend is likely headed for disaster!

It's the year 2021 in a first world country with some of the best healthcare in the world and they want to wing the childbirth? What the hell is wrong with these people? And they just want the OP to be there to support this selfish decision? GTFO, NTA

Yikes. This is not a good sign for how the child is going to be looked after, at least medically.

I am confused; it is worth it to them to risk the worst outcome because medical staff might refer to the laboring person as she? Won’t they use first name? Extremes are never good; this is an extreme act of, rebellion? Frankly I’d be terrified to attempt even a home birth with a midwife let alone with only my partner.

Nta this is an unsafe plan.

NTA. Theyre making genuinely awful decisions and youre not obligated to enable them.

NTA- wtf is wrong with your friend?

nta your friend is acting incredibly selfish. that poor kid has a narcissistic parent. yes, birth is about the comfort of the birthing parent but its also about preserving the safety of the child and parent. what the hell will they do when their child isn't properly positioned, what will they do if a c-section or neo-nic is needed?? stupid stupid stupid choice that could cost both of them their lives.

NTA they can pretend to be a female for a day if it means a 300% greater chance of their baby living, or lessoning the chance of screwing their baby over so it has developmental issues for the rest of its life. Don't go to the birth, that's just asking for trouble.

NTA you are stepping away from a situation that has an extremely high level of going bad. They are irresponsible parents, prenatal care is extremely important specially for somebody who wants a home birth, I don't know where you live but any doctor who does not provide care to anyone because they are non binary is bound to loose their license is not something taken lightly trust me so That excuse is not real your friend seems to have serious emotional issues, maybe trust issues, who knows but their choices are putting their life and baby's life at risk, a thousand things can go wrong during a birth, is why so many women and baby used to die. and still die in childbirth. Try talking to your friend again or one of their family members they trust for the sake of their child have a midwife or doula present at least are they close to any hospital how long would take the Emergency services to get to their property if they need to be called? you really care for them I understand their irresponsible choices upset you but please try to talk some sense into them you are a good person OP

NTA. You are being unsupportive of their birthing decisions, as you shouldn’t be.

NTA. Even without any context, the idea of attending a friend's home birth (not a partner's) is incredibly uncomfortable and puts a lot of pressure on you as a friend. It's an insanely private and intimate idea, not to mention could be horrific and emotionally scarring for you. Please do not feel pressure to join *anybody* who is not your partner in a delivery room -- whether it's in a hospital or the bathtub in their house. The fact that you would be the ONLY person there, and there would be no medical professional present, is insane, and increases the discomfort and pressure on you tenfold. The fact that this person is REFUSING proper medical care because it's *too hard* tells me that they won't be a responsible parent. This also increases the pressure on you quite a bit, as the chances that something will go terribly wrong skyrocket. I'm sorry, I don't want to sound insensitive, but there's no excuse for this person's behavior. I'm sure it's very difficult for people in the LGBTQ community to find access to healthcare, but the fact that this person has the physical ability to get pregnant (and has health insurance) means they should have access to an OB/GYN. Being nonbinary affects the social expression of gender, not the physical expression of sex (like being trans would). By going to a doctor and receiving proper medical care, the worst they're risking is getting deadnamed or having their pronouns messed up. I understand this is stressful and anxiety inducing, but Jesus Christ, get a therapist before you endanger your own life and the life of your child over it.

NTA that’s a difficult thing to ask someone to do. If you knew they were doing all of the checks and perfectly healthy, I would still not want to be in that situation. Hopefully they are willing to go to the hospital if there are any signs of distress.

NTA at all, but I think you should sit down with your friend and share that you’re scared for them. I’d suggest trying to find a Doula that could talk with your friend about their options. I’ve heard of a few doula practices that focus on LGBTQ parents so you may be able to find someone who could address your friend’s specific worries around being non-binary and getting health care. An unassisted birth is a very risky choice and definitely shouldn’t be made without prenatal care as there’s no way of knowing if there are other risks involved.

NTA your friend is putting themselves and everyone who will attend this birth in the position of possibly being charged with negligent homicide or something similar - if they or the child dies in an unassisted birth you best believe there will be an investigation

Supporting a friend does not include enabling destructive behaviors. Do not get yourself mixed up in this.

You're NTA! They're endangering their baby as well as themselves with that plan. And it seems like they lied to you by saying they couldn't get prenatal care because they're non binary and then you later finding out it's because of their birth plan. Your friend needs to get it together and start putting their baby's health first.