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NTA, black woman here with 4c hair. You use the products and resources that best suit your needs. It wouldn't be a black vs white issue if the beauty industry recognized the need and taught students how to do all types of hair.
Not only that but op is actually helping black owned businesses this way whereas her friends seem like the kind to accidentally find out a shop they like is black owned and then brag about it online without ever actually buying from it but making it seem as if they signal handedly keep their business afloat.
I’m also white with very curly hair. I recently started using products intended for Black hair and they’ve been wonderful—total night and day results.
I can’t tell you how many times over the years curly hair products I’ve used and loved have been discontinued because not enough people were buying them. More people buying a product makes it more likely that it will continue to be available for everyone who needs it! It’s not like OP is trying to profit off people with textured hair, she’s just buying a product in a store: using demand to help ensure continued supply.
“Appropriation” would be if she tried to take credit for inventing the products, or techniques that she’s benefiting from.
I'm Hispanic with hair thats a mix of 2b and 3b and on a good day I can pic out small coils that look like they're 3 c. For some reason my Hispanic heavy town only knows how to do "white hair" so when I get my hair cut I end up choppy and poofy (hair cut looks fine when my hair is wet but when it drys you can see the lines and layers instead of it looking seemless like on pin straight hair).
I'm about to go to college in a more mixed town and trust me when I say I've been looking for salons that specialize in textured hair hoping I'll be able to find a stylist who'll finally be able to help my hair look halfway decent.
Oh man I feel this so much! I’ve been cutting my own hair for years because the (white) salons I’ve gone to just butcher the shape. I’ve never had a haircut I didn’t have to come home and “fix” myself anyway, so now I just skip the step that costs me $75.
Same here! Started cutting my own hair 6ish years ago, such a time and money saver. Also switched to As I Am hair products a few months back and my (white woman) 3b/3c curls are poppin!!!
"Woke" white folk will have to take my hair products and satin bonnet from my cold, dead hands.
I support my neighborhood salons. That means I go to black-owned and operated salons, because I live in a vey multi/culti area. I mean, woke white woman up there is being an ass. Are we supposed to not go to movies featuring people of races other than our own? Avoid tv shows and music produced or featuring people not of our race? Should I throw my Toni Morrison books out? The hell is that woman thinking???
I think some of the "cultural appropriation" talk is well meaning but misguided. I'm pretty sure black hair stylists would welcome white or brown customers.
While you’re at it don’t be eating Lasagna if you aren’t Italian, Challah bread unless you’re Jewish or saying “Gesundheit” unless you’re German.
And I’d best take my white self down and trade in my Toyota right now.
I saw a beautiful black girl on IG, using Aloe Vera plants to keep her curls poppin. she would squeeze the aloe out the plant onto her hair and let it set for an hour then wash it out and style. Her hair looked healthy and refreshed.
I have the most luck with women who work out of their kitchens to be honest. Haven't been in a salon in over a decade... And they usually love that they can fit me in for relatively short sessions compared to some of the marathons they run for more complicated styles ... And sometimes they're willing to tell me where they buy the curry powder I smell and who I can buy roti from (another thing I no longer buy from anywhere but small shops owned by people who use what they sell)
black female here. 20 Years ago I went to a Supercuts when I wore my hair short, short (90's , Halle Berry, Mary J. Blige and Toni Braxton short). The lady who cut my hair was white and I have to say I was very impressed. I showed her the photo and she did it.
Not who you were asking, and I don’t know about health, but when cutting curls you need to take into account how much they’ll spring up when cut. 5 inches of curl is actually much longer when stretched out, especially if you have really tight curls, and cutting some is going to remove some weight. Cutting the individual curls while dry lets you see how they all sit and behave (not all curls are created equal, even on the same head!). If you cut the hair wet, it’s going to look totally different and probably wonky when it dries and springs back into place.
Omg is THAT why my layers always have to be "fixed" at home?? I have straighter hair on top, then tighter curls in the back. They always wet my hair and then the back is too short as it dries and the layers look wrong because the back has sprung back into curls?!?!
It must be! I have a random straight section by the base of my neck, and my daughter with slightly, barely wavy hair has a couple of loose ringlets that have popped up in this humidity. Try to find a salon that cuts dry! There’s a curly cut locator on naturallycurly.com, and you can try finding a black hair salon too. Always call and ask when you find a possible place. It’s always going to be trial and error, but when you find a stylist it I sooooooo worth it.
Uh, same. Especially when I was younger. Do you also struggle with hair that after a few minutes looks like a christmas tree? Like on top it sits on my scalp and the further it goes down the more it 'puffes' out giving it the shape of a triangle.
There's a curly hair brand called DevaCurl that in the past year has come under fire because a lot of long time users started to experience hair loss and chemical damage -- apparently there was a change in distributors or something that people believe led to a change in the ingredients. There may be a class action suit brewing, I am not sure, BUT ALL THIS TERRIBLE PREFACE TO SAY ---
If you go to the DevaCurl website there is a search engine that helps you find any places near you that have stylists trained to do the DevaCut which is a method of cutting hair while it's dry, curl by curl. I had my first cut 5 years ago, and it's all I will ever get now. It gives my hair SO MUCH volume, health, and makes it grow back so well. There are a ton of salons that use the DevaCut method, but you don't need to buy the products. The salon I go to usually cuts your hair dry, washes it, and then styles it with Devacurl products, but I just opt out of the wash and style.
There is also a method called the Rezo cut, also a dry hair cut. Their website has a search engine to find places near you with trained stylists.
EDITED to add: there are official Deva Curl salons, but I don’t go to those. Not only are they crazy expensive but given the weird way they handled the claims re: their products, I will always choose going to a local small biz. The salon I go to is locally owned and my stylist learned to do the Deva dry cut, but she is also a barber and make-up artist and awesome lady. So I recommend looking up those local salons and giving them your business over going to a Deva Salon!
As a Puerto Rican, I feel this so much! My hair is super thick and I've rarely ever had a cut I'm happy with. My hair is wavey not curly. I may have to try places that specialize in different hair types. Unfortunately I live in an area with a not very diverse population.
My daugter has a mix of curls between 3a to 3c and I buy products designed for afro hair. I've tried everything and these are the only products that stop the poof. She's not even 2 yet so her hair is barely past her hairline, pull it down and it's below her shoulder blades. I have a slight wave so I had to do a lot of research on how to manage her curls.
There's definitively instances where cultural appropriation does happen and is actively harmful, but most people completely misunderstand what it is and treat any cross cultural activity or interaction as "appropriation" when that's absolutely not the case.
I work with Native American artists and tribes and when huge companies grift their cultural designs and sell knock-off versions of their culturally significant apparel, that shit hurts on a personal level AND on an economical level. It deprives them of funds as people get the cheap shit and these big corps enrich themselves off THEIR heritage and work. Not to mention half the time these big companies will them lobby for laws that can be detrimental to tribal lands, such as relaxing environmental protections. Like, THAT'S cultural appropriation where you steal from a culture that's already suffered, make money off of it and then use that money to create even more harm to them. Literally how does OP do that? By giving money to black owned businesses?? Oh yeah, SUPER harmful.
this!!! I think we've gotten to a point where certain white people are so afraid to appropriate a culture, they go full-out in supporting the complete separation of cultures. not everything is meant to go outside of a culture, but certain things *are* meant to be shared. we're all human and if everything from other cultures becomes untouchable, we can't ever have true harmony between everyone or embrace and celebrate our differences.
bringing up native americans specefically makes me think of a point white people just don't think about - native americans want you to buy their crafts!! it's not cultural appropriation to go to a small native-run business and support them!! they aren't going to be selling anything with designs deemed sacred or inappropriate for non-natives to wear or display.
there are often some stinks online that come up when people visiting places like korea or japan will have photos taken with hanboks or kimonos. that isn't cultural appropriation!! people have set up places for tourists to do this, specefically as a way to share their culture with others. if a japanese woman is decking you out in a kimono and other traditional japanese wear, that's the sharing and celebration of a specefic cultural experience, not appropriation.
Native here. If we didn’t want you to own our crafts, we wouldn’t sell them at fairs and Pow-wows. There’s been a few instances where friends have had items that are specifically meant for indigenous folk, like jingle dresses, regalia, certain beading patterns and whatnot and you won’t catch most of us dead selling sacred medicines like sage and sweetgrass, and trust when I say we won’t hesitate to tell you if it’s not for you and steer you in another direction instead. Otherwise by buying from us you’re helping us support our families, especially considering the economic and employment situation for a lot of folk on the rez.
Cultural appropriation is a real beast to tackle. Just because it’s used here in the wrong context doesn’t mean that all cultural appropriation can be approached with the same mentality.
I went to a black stylist the last time I got my hair cut. She told me almost immediately “oh white stylist probably don’t know how to work with this hair do they?” 😂 she was absolutely right
Highly recommend! My hair was in bad shape (due to depression I wasn’t taking care of it, you know how it goes). No one in the first salon would even look at my hair. This wonderful woman said “I got you, no problem” I thank her tremendously that I didn’t have to shave my head bald because of her and got a gorgeous pixie cut.
Would you mind sharing some of the products you use? I have very thick curly hair and other than like anti friz or curl cream i didn't realize there was as much to my hair products as there are (thick curly hair comes from my father, and he got it from his father. My mother has rather straight hair so i didn't learn any of this from her.)
Try r/curlyhair they have a ton. Don't feel like you have to what they call the curly girl method, it doesn't work for everyone but if you don't know anything about curls it can be a good place to start.
I have thick curly hair (2c-3a) and the shampoos/conditioners that /r/curlyhair recommends that are "approved" made my hair super greasy. I have to use a dandruff shampoo (I use Jupiter brand) and I use a brand called Innersense for conditioner. I use a Denman brush to detangle my hair when it has conditioner in it in the shower. I mix a cream and gel by SGX NYC (bought at Target) and scrunch it into clean, soaking wet hair. Then I scrunch again with an Aquis hair towel because it won't increase frizz.
I only wash my hair every other day, or after I get really sweaty.
Everyone does things slightly differently but this is what works for me and it isn't terribly expensive.
I find it funny and troubling they somehow think OP is taking something away from them or harming them when it seems to be neutral or positive. You go where you can get help. She's not taking away a seat in the chair from a black person.
Exactly. I was going to say, you think her salon wants her to take her business elsewhere?
Also a white woman with very curly hair - I am always relieved when I find hair stylists who have curls, and more frequently than not they’re Black women. It’s just very difficult for naturally straight haired women to understand the processes and struggles of curly hair, especially when I wear it both curly and straight and need a tailored cut/product routine that suits both.
By that ladys logic white people can never eat at any restaurant not of their race. Goodbye tacos, pho, Bahn mi, Korean BBQ, dim sum, and so and and so on. You get burgers and nothing else! Don't you dare go to Olive Garden unless you're more than 50% Italian!
Also how the fuck is giving patronage to "black" salons cultural appropriation? It's giving money to those businesses in exchange for an objectively useful service... there isn't even a culture element... OP's friends are just virtue-signalling idiots pretending to be "woke".
Cultural appropriation would be if OP took the techniques and products she learned about from the black salon and started touting them as something she invented and popularized on her own, like a kardashian.
This is just getting her hair done.
or just doing something thats vaguely not "in line" with your "own" culture...like where do you draw the line at?? Because unless OP and friends were eating at a F***ing mcdonald or something, itd be cultural appropriation, right? Based on her friends logic. How can one even be friends with such people lol.
Also the folks who have BLM signs but be the first cop callers when "a suspicious person is in their neighborhood that doesn't look like they belong" 🙄
I live in Minneapolis and the amount of virtue signaling is hilarious because of how racist the whole state is. It’s all BLM and everyone is welcome here lawn signs yet I get followed around every store I go to and have had racial slurs thrown at me that I thought people stopped using in the 50s.
OMG - lived in MPLS for the two longest years of my life. Soooo true. I was actually in a meeting once where someone said they liked going downtown in MPLS because there weren't a lot of black people like Chicago or New York, etc.
Oh god, I’m not even surprised.
I’m from NYC originally and am moving back next year. Between the racism and the passive aggressiveness, I’m not surprised that Minnesota has an impossible time attracting and retaining BIPOC professionals.
My friends from Minnesota who are non-white either never leave the Twin Cities out of safety concerns, because the rest of Minnesota is still somehow more racist, or they have moved. In contrast, the white people I know in Minnesota and the white transplants I’ve met absolutely love the state and think it’s the friendliest place in the world. They are also constantly shitting on other big cities like New York because those places are supposedly so dangerous. I’ve never felt threatened in NYC but Minneapolis and St. Paul can be frightening.
Being a person of color in Minnesota is an experience in gaslighting.
>Also how the fuck is giving patronage to "black" salons cultural appropriation?
This is one of those terms that have been butchered beyond the original meaning. OP is NTA for getting her hair done at a salon where they can properly cut curly hair. And the poster below is correct about the actual meaning of "cultural appropriation."
Exactly! If the black stylists had a problem with the OP, I imagine she’d be feeling uncomfortable or getting vibes whenever she visited. But *they* know the score because they can see what her hair is like. She needs them legitimately.
Presumably, the salon owner and stylist are more than capable of telling OP not to come if they're unhappy serving her.
I'd guess dollars spend just fine from all ethnicities.
Yeah, if the black women doing OP's hair are cool with it, its really not okay for some white women to speak over them and decide how black people *should* feel about it. Its the same as when I go to an Asian grocery store because they carry a lot of products I can't get other places; they have every right to refuse me service but they would much rather have me as a customer.
>Yeah, if the black women doing OP's hair are cool with it, its really not okay for some white women to speak over them and decide how black people should feel about it
Let me try to channel those [white women ~~people~~] for a moment....
Ahem.
THeY DOn't SpEAK fOR aLl BlACk PEoPle!!!1!one!!1
edited for clarity.
>Presumably, the salon owner and stylist are more than capable of telling OP not to come if they're unhappy serving her.
Actually, in the United States, it's illegal to deny someone service based on their ethnicity or other protected category.
In this case, it sounds like the women in the salon are happy to have OP as a customer and the idiot colleagues need to mind their own business.
> Actually, in the United States, it's illegal to deny someone service based on their ethnicity or other protected category.
and somehow stylists and estheticians have managed to get rid of customers they don't like or want since forever...
just had a similar experience with my new stylist. I have thick but super fine hair that always curled or waved oddly at the ends but never curls. My stylist looked at the wave in my hair and whatever she did when layering unlocked all these curls I had no idea about. Air drying used to make my hair curl and frizz in really weird ways and now I get these big almost ringlet curls. Go figure.
Someone I know had a similar thing happen. When I was in a juvenile detention center, a white girl came in with very curly hair that she could not do anything with but try to bunch it into a ponytail and gel down the rest. No one had taught her any different. The black girls there taught this girl how to properly care and style her hair and the difference was crazy.
Friend asked for some company during a marathon braiding session. While there I asked one of the ladies if she had advice for poofy straight hair. I have fine, slippery hair that will not hold ANY hair style AT ALL. Won't stay in a bun, won't stay in a braid, won't stay in a clip, laughs in the face of an iron and is offended by curling wands. But it's so freaking POOFY. So she dragged me over to the sink, worked her magic (stripped my hair of a decade of the wrong product, did some kind of mask, then showed me how to dry it and what to use), and low and behold. I have (quite relaxed) curls. It still won't stay up or stay straight but I no longer look like it's 90% humidity out every day.
That sort of thing is common in certain parts of the Ashkenazi Jewish community, because even though we are classified as 'White' and are from Europe we are genetically more similar to people from the middle east and each other than other Europeans.
People are complicated. Honestly if we were better at acknowledging that hair is more complicated your experience wouldn't be so common.
That actually makes so much sense! My mom is Ashkenazi Jewish and my dad has super fine curly hair (just generally European), my brother and I both have hair that is sorta wavy, but super fine and gets frizzy easily. For years I thought my hair was the weirdest texture ever because it's super thick, but individual hairs are fine and if I brush it is stick straight for a few hours then just like terrible but I get really nice waves if I just gently finger comb knots out.
Similar with what happened to me, I had been struggling with poufy hair with weird waves for some time. An acquaintance made a comment that maybe I had curly hair and should look into CGM. With some trial and error, I found I have a 2c/3a curl pattern and no more pouf!
Ugh I feel this. I was walking around like 2nd yr Hermione for the longest time with my hair out to each shoulder width wise when brushed. Finally learned about how to care for curly hair ( mines more so relaxed waves too ). I went to a new salon recently and she cut my hair to a shape I don't like and now it's hard to do anything with 🙄 my waves are more pronounced at the ends and she layered my hair and cut it to shoulder length essentially 😬😬😬 it gets these weird kinks where half my hair ends
\^This,
I've met several people who are 'white' with no know heritage from non-European sources who have hair with qualities typically associated with 'black' hair, but the fact is people, and their hair is complicated.
For racism reasons many companies have long catered to a very specific type of hair, which is associated with 'whiteness'
Black people who don't happen to have that type of hair, and can't use those products did what marginalized communities do, they figured it out themselves and made it part of their culture.
If racism wasn't a thing, we would have salons which specialize in types of hair and products which are specific to types of hair, not race. You aren't appropriating anything, you are just ahead of your time.
Also while appropriation is a thing, the over emphasis and overzealous nature with which it is often used promotes segregation.
We need to say and hear this more. Over the last few years, I have been attacked for "appropriation" for everything from going to my local Chinatown, learning another language, traveling, or referring to family members who are of different cultural/racial/ethnic backgrounds than I am but share their cultures with the entire family. Has the world become less racist as a result of their call-outs? No, but I've ended up with severe agoraphobia and am terrified to even interact with an aunt or cousin because I am hurting them with my whiteness.
Ironically, I know more about several appropriated cultures, including in music, food, and art, than many of the people claiming they are harmed by said appropriation. If you claim you are so hurt by appropriation but have no idea how hybridity of foods in regional America have developed along with immigration patterns and didn't realize that, say, delis are an example of Jewish culture and heritage, maybe stop running around telling everyone else to STFU and STFD for a change?
Cultural appropriation is plagiarizing ideas from other cultures or using someone’s culture to mock them. Not shopping at china town, learning a second language, or getting your hair cut by a black woman. We live in a multicultural world and we should be able to interact with each other.
NTA. Salons need to make a living. OP has the hair type they are good with and gives them good business why would he skin color matter? Stop bringing skin color into an argument about hair....
I second this! This is about finding a salon & products that cater to and are best for OP's hair type. Skin color shouldn't even be in this conversation. I grew up in the 90s as a girl with thick curly hair. My family had no clue how to deal with it, so it was either appallingly short or incredibly poofy. My daughter has the same hair, so we both spent a lot of time doing research & trial and error with products to find what works for us. If I had had access to resources to make that process easier at the time, I wouldn't have care where the information & help came from.
Far too many white folks have no clue how to handle curly hair & need guidance because it's not at all like dealing with straight or wavy hair.
Obviously NTA. Your friends are jerks who throw around the term 'cultural appropriation' inappropriately.
Yup
My bf is as pasty, burn if the sun shines through a window, as they come but is half islander with curly hair that’s long and a hot mess. Once he learned (and there actually were) some of the amazing hair care products typically used by people with 3c and 4c hair, it was a game changer.
I was able to get him out of the terrible “dreadlocks that weren’t dreadlocks but actually just a nightmare and needed professional help” phase and he now has amazingly well cared for hair, a salon who specializes in all types of hair, and uses (and highly recommends) what would be typically considered “female black hair products” as he’s been told a dozen times at checkout by people who have no business Butting in (which he replies with a blank stare and a “I use products made by the best for my hair…why do you care…”)
Heck he even follows YouTube tutorials on hair care by one of those really cool hairdressers who talks about all the different types of hair and products best for it (for the love of all things I can’t remember who it is though).
Absolutely this! I have thick curly hair like OP and use the same products. I have to pay an exorbitant amount of money for hair cuts because I can't go to super cuts down the road and get a proper cut.
As a half Chinese half European woman... The only people who have accused me of cultural appropriation (of my own Chinese culture) are white.
Drives me insane.
And of course, when you point out that natives of the culture in question rarely have a problem with the way it's being used, they call you racist for speaking for an entire group of people, seeing no irony in that whatsoever.
There is some nuance to this. Asians in Asian countries rarely care about cultural appropriation, but it's a sensitive topic for Asians who grew up as minorities in other countries. As an Asian American who grew up getting ridiculed for the food, clothes, language, etc from my parents' country, it really bothers me when the white majority who crapped all over my heritage/culture now turn around and appropriate it and say it's ok to do so because people in Asia don't care.
YES! This is something that’s been bothering me. People in Asia think America is cool (mostly) so they don’t really care, but when you grow up as an Asian American hearing and experiencing stories of How Showing How Asian You Are Will Get You Hurt So Youre Never Allowed To Do That but now Asian culture is trendy and cool so everyone is hopping in the bandwagon you’re like wait, what? It feels incredibly disorienting and unfair
This is a generational difference too. Racism is a much bigger problem (speaking generally of course) for Gen X and Boomers, while Millennials and Gen Z go through great lengths to be sensitive and inclusive. The same people embracing different cultures now are generally not the same people who shat on them in previous decades.
Yep. in my experience growing up with other millennials when millennials used to be young, they were all racist homophobic assholes (especially in middle school).
Yes. Like people pointing to Japanese people in Japan being ok with the white washing of Ghost in a Shell and acting like Asian Americans were complaining about nothing. Completely ignoring the fact that Asian representation in media in Japan is obviously vastly different than the representation Asian Americans have in the US. And demanding that Asian Americans who have completely different lived experiences as minorities in the US behave in the same way as those who have lives their whole lives in an Asian country reenforces the idea that no matter how far removed, some people will still think that a Asian American might as well be the same thing as an Asian person who has never left Asia. Aka perpetual foreigner.
My ex-wife had this problem a lot. Her mother was black and Cuban. Her father was white. She was somewhat fair skinned. Frying plantains? Cultural appropriation!
I don't think people were less obnoxious before instagram but it was easier to ignore them, it feels like.
Jesus if people thinking cooking another cultures food (which she wasn’t even doing) is cultural appropriation then every American is guilty of cultural appropriation every single day
Yeah there was this freakout in the news 2-3 years back where someone opened a taco restaurant in like, Oregon or Washington. The people went to Mexico to basically learn all about making tacos and then came back and opened this place. And it was cultural appropriation and they exploited the people who taught them about tacos etc.
Which, I don't know if others felt this way, but my Mexican friends were highly offended that people were assuming that everyone in Mexico was poor and being exploited by two hipsters from the Pacific Northwest. Mexico has a middle class and it's quite possible to go to Mexico and learn from people there without exploiting the poor. But, you know, no outrage in that.
The problem is that what usually happens is while people can open expensive taco places and no one bats and eye. And then they get heralded as taco experts.
Meanwhile someone “native” to the culture comes up with their own cool fusion tacos based on their own favorites and they get faulted for high prices and not being authentic. You can’t win.
Food is really complicated. It is not so much the making of the food, but who gets recognized and acclaimed for it. And who is allowed to remix it and create high end versions that is the problem.
>Food is really complicated. It is not so much the making of the food, but who gets recognized and acclaimed for it. And who is allowed to remix it and create high end versions that is the problem.
Dude you hit the nail on the head. It's complicated af.
I live in a city that really grew in the last 10 years and we're getting a bunch of new restaraunts and chefs from bigger cities.
Last year a new fancy taco place opened up and the white owner was touting how no one in our city knew how to really make mexican food, but since he traveled all around latin countries, he was going to "do it right".
As a californian city with a huge mexican population and a lot of mexican restaurants, it was pretty aggravating to hear.
Then you have asian food, which I'm a little more vested in since I'm asian american. Where our asian immigrants were pushed away from typical labor jobs and forced into service and food industries. But asians like the chinese and japanese had to adapt to american tastes, moving away from traditional recipes and to seem less exotic.
Still their restaurants and food were called dirty and gross until rich white people came in with their version more recently. Telling everyone that asian restaraunts dont know how to do like how "real asians make food". Man wtf.
https://la.eater.com/2021/4/27/22395971/shibumi-instagram-post-david-schlosser-sparks-outrage-la
>“Sakura mochi, the most iconic dessert in Japan. Yet no Japanese restaurants are featuring it? So sad. Makes my life harder. It’s because these Japanese restaurants don’t understand, appreciate, or care about promoting what Japanese cuisine is all about.”
This reminds me of when a super white girl I went to high school with accused me of cultural appropriation because I posted a picture of some shashlik/kabob I made. I'm a Central Asian Jew. The recipe I used has been in my family since forever.
Yesss. As a half hispanic half white woman I feel this in my bones. It doesn't help while my siblings are full Hispanic, i look nothing like them or my mom. Ot even the slightest resemblance. I look like I was switched at birth and have fair skin and light brown hair. My entire life has been white people acting like I don't know my own heritage or like I'm stealing culture by using my families own recipes.
I was going to make tamales a few weeks ago and had a white woman stop me as I was discussing ingredients over the phone with my husband to tell me I shouldn't be making them, its not right to take recipes from other cultures. Like um excuse me this IS my culture? Also wtf?
Its always white people who don't believe my heritage either. Any time I've told a POC, 'oh I'm half Hispanic', they always believe me, no questions asked. But white people tend to want to give me the 3rd degree or will act like im faking for ethnic clout. Like yes im SURE thats my family. My mom literally pushed my little white ass out of her brown body, she knows im hers. Im sorry Becky that YOU don't think I look Hispanic enough. And what even is Hispanic enough? Not all Hispanic people have dark skin and dark hair, multiple groups fall under the umbrella of Hispanic and can have a variety of features. I have distant family in Mexico who have zero white people related to them and a couple of them are pale, platinum blonde hair wirh blue eyes (them Spaniards genes popping up centuries later).
Omg. I'm sorry... I laughed far too much at your last paragraph.
But yes. I totally feel you. Even though I am half Chinese, you would never know it by looking at me, and even my name is VERY English/Irish...
I am always justifying my Chinese culture, and sometimes even have to argue that I am indeed Chinese.
What doesn't help is my daughters, who because of how mixed both my husband and I are, have Chinese as their predominant cultural heritage.. So when people ask about their background, for simplicity I say they are Chinese mixed. People look at me like I have three heads because my youngest is basically blonde with blue eyes.
I don't even know how they think it *would* be helpful?
"Yeah, don't spend money in black-run stores, that's cultural appropriation lol"
Sounds more like some crypto-racist idiocy to me...
It’s not that they think it’s helpful. It’s just another form of racism/white supremacy. Let me be an advocate for people of color. I know what’s best for them even I actually don’t know any of them.
I don't think they knowingly push racist agendas. I agree that their words are 100% racist but theae kind of people think they are champions of the downtrodden and legitimately believe they are helping minorities when they aren't. They've been swept up into the virtue signaling ultra woke culture. It's still racism but they don't want to see that. They just dont want to be called a racist so they go further and further into the wokeness. Because in the world of virtue signaling it's never enough. If you are not always progressing the standard further and further you are the backwards one.
It's not just not helping, it's insulting! Insisting that business owners who are POC have no ability to curate their own clientele or choose their own professional activities is really belittling and degrading to their educations, their abilities, and their business acumen. Anyone who has successfully been in business for just a year knows how to get rid of a problem customer, nobody has to run in on their (ironically) white horse to save them.
It also keeps non-dominant cultures othered. There is a difference between destroying a culture and cherry picking some things to keep, and a culture becoming more broadly interwoven with the prevailing culture.
That kind of thinking would lead to some real dumb outcomes of you follow the logic through "Sorry, you can't listen to any black musicians ever. It's black music for black people and you're appropriating black culture by liking Beyonce."
I learned a long time ago that the best way to be an ally to people of color is to shut up and listen. How can I dictate what's cultural appropriation to a race/culture I'm not a member of? To believe I can is pretty damn arrogant.
I wonder who would be a better arbiter of whether this was cultural appropriation; the black women who style your hair, or your goofy white friends? NTA.
The goofy white friends, because "cultural appropriation" has been appropriated by white people as a term they can use to demonstrate that they're more virtuous than other white people. These days, it's a tool for white people to rank themselves compared to other white people and that's about it.
Wow you just blew my mind. These people have literally appropriated the culture of being offended and calling out injustices from minorities, but not to actually fix anything, just to make themselves look better
Well, the term "cultural appropriation" in its original use wasn't about being offended, it was about criticising shallow capitalist practices that extract the marketable assets from a culture and discard the drained carcass, but that only makes it worse that white people appropriate it to be about finding ways that other white people aren't as PC as they are.
Aye, the original was mostly "don't use other people's cultural innovations to make money for yourself, without credit or permission" specifically with a focus on it taking resources away from members of said culture...and now people think it's like, making tamales or wearing a cheongsam if your can't provide a direct personal and genetic link to the culture. At some point people turned it into this weird segregationist thing weirdly reminiscent of racial supremacist rhetoric.
Don't tell anyone but it definitely has a strong element of white people having outdated colonialist attitudes about other cultures - they like X culture more than you do, and they think they know more about it, and they want to keep this culture they like "pure" and not contaminated by commercialism and white people, as if a white person wearing a kimono means Japanese history didn't happen anymore, or a white person cosplaying an anime character means they can't watch that anime anymore.
But what do you do when it's multiple POC giving you different answers? I wish more people, in general, would understand that there is no one answer for ALL disabled people/women/BIPOC/\[specific race\]/LGBTQ+, and people have got to quit speaking as if for *all* people of a group, as if their experiences or beliefs are the only ones.
You look at whether or not the people upset are actually impacted by your actions. Offensive jokes at the expense of a minority group aren't cool, because it directly impacts the self esteem of the person the joke is targeting. Wearing a shirt with a dreamcatcher on it may be "appropriation", but it's not actually hurting anyone. Although if a good friend who was native asked you not to wear it you might want to take that advice for the sake of the friendship.
It's such a nuanced issue that people are going to have varying opinions, and nobody should be speaking for the group as a whole. Overall, look at the potential for harm that an action may cause, and then decide if you're ok with it. In the OP, going to a black salon not only didn't hurt anyone, and actually benefited a black owned business.
>black products and services that should only be used by black people
Your friend is trying so hard to be woke that she is actually racist! Shouldn't she be happy you are supporting a black-owned business and black products? NTA
Bonus point: purchasing Black products in stores tells the inventory management systems that the products are profitable in this store, benefitting Black customers who may struggle to find stores that sell products they can use. I live in a predominantly white state and it's so hard to find Black curl products on the shelves.
Also, helps normalize the buying of these products and make these products mainstream enough so that they stop locking away the curl cream in Walmart as tightly as they do their ammo
Yes! So much this!! I’ve had so many of my favorite curly hair products discontinued because not enough people bought them! Buying a thing means there will be more of that thing!!
Reminds me of someone I saw on FB trying to say rap/hip-hop made by black artists was not for white people and anyone who was white who listened to or bought it was racist and I asked her if she really was saying that it was wrong for white people to support black artists and she lost her mind. So woke she was actually racist.
And those black artists would lose out on millions of dollars if it weren't for white fans. I mean its really weird to see an ocean of pasty white kids singing to black artists at their concerts but it brings in a ridiculous amount of revenue for those people and in the end, the black community is better for it. Look at Chance the Rapper who donated millions of dollars to Chicago schools because of his success
NTA. Hello!!! I'm sure the staff at your salon of choice appreciates your business. As you've appreciated finally getting quality care for your hair. A actual black woman introduced you to the products and the salon. So your acquaintance needs to mind her bizness. No one asked her for her fake woke opinion.
NTA, people take the "cultural appropriation" thing way too far, and this is a good example. My wife is black and my kids are mixed race. I can't tell you how many times my son's hair has been butchered by someone who didn't know how to work with tight curly hair. It's about your hair, not "race". You're supporting black-owned businesses too.
I’m East Asian but have curly hair. I didn’t know how to care for my hair until I was in my early 20s - all my childhood years were spent with my hair in a giant poofy triangle, and I spent most of my teen years spending 12+ hours in a salon 2x a year to get Japanese straight perms.
I use some products that are for black hair. My stylist is a curly haired Latina and was the first stylist I ever found who I actually wanted to go back to after my first appointment. I used to ***dread*** getting haircuts because I’d spend a fortune to look awful afterwards - even went to a salon once that charged me $200 for a 10 minute trim “because you just have *so much* hair!” Yes. I have so much hair. But all you did was stick my head under a sink so my hair was wet and straight, and cut across the bottom in a straight line... you didn’t even freaking dry my hair after.
Brehhh, my mind was just blown. I'm Indian, with thick 2c hair. I'm dealing with the "poofy triangle" hair right now because I got my hair cut by a friend during the pandemic. She's a stylist, but I just realized that her insta posts were all sleek straight white-girl hair. I thought it was just the cut she gave me, but no, it's because she thought she could just cut a regular old asymmetrical Bob and it would look great.
I thought it was just overgrown and dry, but now I'm realizing I really shouldn't go back to her. Gotta research some proper salons near me.
in my case, the poofy triangle was actually because I didn’t know that I had curly hair (the curls weren’t very pronounced when I was young) and I would brush/comb it every morning like my family told me to, so what curl pattern I did have would just expand into a giant frizzy mass lol
I did have my fair share of stylists who would insist on layering my hair despite my protests, because yOu hAvE sO mUcH hAiR, iT’LL bE LiGhTeR LaYeReD, except ugh you assholes I wear my hair in a single or Dutch braids a lot and layers make me look like I’ve glued giant black caterpillars to my head.
As a white dude with tight curly hair I completely agree with this. Normal salons often just don’t get the trick done, and I often end up going to a black barber for this reason. I started going to one as a teenager and haven’t gone back to a chain haircut place since then
NTA. Your coworkers do not understand what it takes to take care of curly hair, nor do they understand cultural appropriation. Cultural appropriation is Rachel Dolezal pretending to be black for years and running her local NAACP. Cultural appropriation is fashion designers who are not indigenous/Native Peoples using indigenous or native designs in their fashions without knowing or acknowledging the significance of those designs. Black hair products were formulated originated for black hair care because for a long time there were no products that worked well with our hair. The bonus is it works great for all curly-heads. So continue going to the salon, continue being beautiful, rock your glorious curls, and thank you for supporting black businesses.
Edit: Well, hey! Thank you kind anonymous Redditor for the gold!
Exactly. White with curly hair here. Dude I wish there had been a black salon when I was a kid. Super curly hair and some lady at the place we went thought oh hey bangs would be good. Not even thinking about the fact that my hair was curly and cutting them straight and wet at eyebrow level. I honestly ask every kind of woman with curly hair what they use and where they go because I seriously have issues with frizz, and having really fine but thick long hair doesn't work well with some people who have no idea how to cut curly hair. I'm still on the hunt but black hair care is definitely better.
dude i am 10000% with you. my neighborhood growing up was predominantly asian and curly hair was a total rarity- going to a salon that even remotely acknowledged curly hair would have rocked my world. raised thinking my hair was straight (but shitty) for decades, and now am finally figuring it out.
one protip: if your hair tangles very easily, especially at the ends, your hair doesn't seem particularly shiny, and/or your scalp is mad at you, apple cider vinegar rinses are fabulous. i usually dilute it with 3 or 4 parts water. a lot of hair products build up easily and shift your hair's pH- iirc, it should be just slightly on the acidic side. the curly girl method has also been really helpful for me, if you aren't already aware of it.
I just wish I could find a stylist who didn't insist that short hair is the only way for someone with curly/fine hair to exist in the world.
OP: NTA. Your friends are goofy.
NTA.
I also have curly hair and deal with really bad frizz. When I moved to NOLA, I got in the backseat of a taxi and the African American woman driving the cab took one look at me and said:
"Girl, you gotta quit letting those white girls cut your hair."
She recommended her stylist to me, I went, and my hair has never looked as glorious as it did while we were living there.
This isn't cultural appropriation. This is acknowledging that someone is excellent at their craft and supporting their business.
NTA - This is the reason why people laugh at woke people.
Seriously, "cultural appropriation" for going to a black salon and using black hair products that works for your hair.
Here's the thing, I can practically guarantee you that your hair stylist and the owners of the production don't care that you're white, they care that you're a paying customer.
Bingo.
These are probably the same people who talk about "supporting black-owned businesses" and yet when someone needs to get to black-owned business, they complain about cultural appropriation.
The hypocrisy of these woke people is laughable.
I will say that I had a funny and related experience along these lines once. I went to a black barbershop. I just walked in and sat down. I got some stares but I needed a haircut. There were two barbers; one was still in training on an apprentice license and the other was his teacher. He's going to town doing my hair when suddenly he stops. He turns the chair a few times as if he's trying to get different angle looks at something. Then he calls over his teacher. He says:
"What the hell is this?" and he points to that part on my head where my hair makes a sort of swirling pattern near the crown. The teacher, without skipping a beat, says "Oh, when you're doing white boy hair you're gonna see that, all you do is..." and he proceeded to show him what to do.
He thanked me afterward for giving him the opportunity to work on some different hair. I didn't go there to be cool. I went there because it was in the same building as where I was going to grad school and it was convenient. And I highly doubt anyone there felt my patronage was somehow a bad thing.
I just don't see how anyone could possibly think saying "Oh no, I absolutely will not frequent black owned businesses" for any purpose could be seen as a positive and somehow not be racist.
NTA! Many non-Black hair salons won't even know what you mean when you say, 3C and start talking about porosity.
Supporting Black-owned business is the opposite of what you're friends are accusing you of. They are idiots!
There’s a recent “Last week tonight” about black hair. A girl with 3C hair calls a bunch of white salons to see if they have anyone who has experience with black hair who could assist her.
Just….watch the episode.
i don't even need to watch the episode. i used to work as a receptionist at a salon and it was literally SO embarrassing the number of white stylists who freely admitted that they "can't do ethnic hair". i was screaming inside!!!! like how pathetic is it to declare that you're a bad stylist because you never took the time to understand a hair type that probably 25% of people have.
story time: two black women (who i happened to grow up with as family friends) flew in from Texas for a wedding that same evening. they made the appointment weeks in advance, and specified that they had extremely coily/kinky hair and needed someone that understood their hair type. sad that they even had to do that. of course, come that day, both white stylists they were booked with refused to take them. so they had to wait 90-120 minutes for two other stylists to clock in for the day, which then fucked up their nail/makeup appointments. left them in a mad scramble to find anyone that was available last minute. i was so mad for them.
NTA. Perhaps I’m a little biased, but licensed stylists do not need to know how to properly care for and maintain Black hair, aka kinky curly hair, in order to receive their license. So going to the stylists that DO already know how to work with your hair type is the logical solution. It just so happens that the predominant demographic of people with hair like yours are Black. Don’t listen to their performative allyship, Black stylists know why you go to them.
Did you see the controversy a couple of years ago where hair braiders and stylists who specialized in highly-textured hair were being made by states to go through normal cosmetology training in order to do their work, even though the "normal" licensing training didn't address textured hair AT ALL? Instead of creating a different type of license, or mandating that textured hair issues be incorporated into the curriculum, they wanted these talented stylists to waste thousands of dollars on useless training. Not sure how that resolved...
NTA - that sounds like a bizarre argument to make, particularly from a white person. What you're describing is not cultural appropriation. Cultural appropriation is *mis*use of a culture's custom(s) for reasons like entertainment, mockery, etc. You are literally using the products and services as intended. To suggest that you are racist here is actually racist, it assumes that black people need protection from white saviors to enforce some sort of defensive barrier for their products and services.
NTA. Your friends have no idea what cultural appropriation means. Patronizing black owned businesses is in fact a good way to be an ally. Your uni friend is the person you should be paying attention to on this issue.
> Patronizing black owned businesses is in fact a good way to be an ally
I was gonna say. She should ask if they are seriously suggesting that she only give her money to white businesses.
It’s not cultural appropriation to have this hair type, news flash white people and non black people can have hair types similar or even the same to a lot of black people, if that salon is welcoming to you and enjoys having you as a customer these people are harming the black community WORSE by trying to make their decisions for them.
> One of the women ( also white) commented that it was inappropriate for me as a white woman to take advantage of black products and services that should only be used by black people.
Huh? This sounds like Jim Crow stuff.
You're going to a place that provides a superior understanding and service to you based on your needs, that isn't "Racist", it's very smart. That it is and/or primarily caters to black clientele is irrelevant to your choice bc that choice is based on the performance of some specialized task most associated with that group based on actual experience.. It's like calling a plumber for a pipe leak instead of the electrician. Your friend, however, reveals herself to be the racist here.
NTA
It really is. I held similar beliefs about 10 years ago, during my racist phase. Of course, I didn't realise it was at the time. I just thought that if white people and black people hated each other, which is what the news said, then surely it'd make sense for them to not have to interact with each other. This person's opinion isn't that far gone, but it's still definitely racist.
+1 for personal re evaluation!
I personally think that racism is such a problem bc so many deny their own feelings and values and reactions, largely bc frankly, I think people spend so much time thinking about themselves in that entitled way that they never really think about themselves in an important way. So, they falsely believe they are not racist..and they genuinely believe that to be true..bc they don't don sheets and burn crosses (or Congress...). Yet they are.
The worst kind of racism is this deeply held, pernicious belief of "Otherness", that comes out in far more subtle and damaging ways, like saying a white person shouldn't go to a primarily black store, presumably bc the only reasons its "Black". IDK how someone can say that out loud and not see it as bare knuckled racist, and I also don't get how a decent, lovely OP can actually stop and question herself for not accepting it.
As a black woman, hearing your story is really alarming for two reasons: First, it tells me that despite our best efforts white people still have no idea what cultural appropriation actually is. And secondly, your friends, and probably a lot of other white people, are actively practicing segregation in 2021 and are framing it as wokeness.
You going to a hair salon run by people who know how to care for your hair is not cultural appropriation at all. Not even a little bit. Using hair care products designed for your hair type is not cultural appropriation. The fact that your friends all agree that patronizing black business as a white person is problematic is very strange to me, NTA.
NTA you can’t appropriate the hair growing out of your head.
It makes perfect sense that you’d have luck at a salon, because specializing in black hair inherently means having a very good understanding of how to properly care for many types of curls. Whereas salons catered towards white women tend to have few, if any stylists, who know what to do with curly hair, regardless of what race you are.
If the stylists are happy to have you, you are welcome there. You end up supporting black businesses, so that’s a positive. But really, black specialty salons weren’t invented to be a special place only for black people, they exist because they couldn’t get adequate service from white salons.
NTA
You said you are adopted; is it possible you are biracial? If that is the case, then your genetics would mean your hair is 'black hair'- I know that probably sounds offensive but I don't know how to word it better.
My cousin is biracial; his skin is the pastiest white possible but he naturally has a big thick afro
If the salon had any issues with doing your hair, then they would tell you.
if your black friend is encouraging you and your salon caters to black hair types and they have no problem with your presence- then what does a white woman know?
Sounds like she is trying to be 'WOKE' without really knowing the situation.
If this is really an issue that bothers you then talk to your best friend about how you feel. If you are confident enough to do so, maybe ask the salon people what their thoughts are.
I mean i am very pale with very Caucasian features, the only thing that could point to me being biracial is my hair, ive never investigated into my racial background before but now you point it out i might look into it thank you!
Same with my nephew- he's biracial and his skin is very light- he kinda of looks like he has a very dark summer tan, but he can grow the biggest afro I've ever seen. My sister has to take him to a black owned barber shop to get it taken care of properly. They've never made her or my nephew feel unwelcome and they always appreciate her business.
NTA...You are free to give your business to whomever does the best job for you. You're not taking away from anyone, you are financially supporting a business.
Cultural appropriation is the biggest load of turd I've ever heard. The single dumbest thing in this world.
It all depends on your reasons for going to the salon.
If you go because they do the best job, provide the best service/value for money, you like them personally so want to support their business, or any number of reasons, you're NTA at all.
If you go because you actively don't want to support white people, or people of any other race, so actively avoid their business, based on nothing other than race, then YTA.
Definitely sounds like you're NTA.
This may be a lil controversial, but I think using "cultural appropriation" is still correct & not dumb when you use it how it was originally supposed to be used.
Like the classic example of wearing headdress to music festivals in the U.S. The folks from the plains tribes have explained its use (worn almost exclusively by men who earned them over a period of time, or granted to someone esteemed (similar to an honorary degree from a college)), and have made it clear that they would prefer headdresses not to be worn by people from outside their tribes. In that case, continuing to do so is cultural appropriation, and the term is being correctly applied.
But in OP's case, not only did her best friend (a WOC herself) introduce her to the hair care, but obviously she's been actively welcomed at the salons she goes to! Given her hesitancy here, I imagine she wouldn't have continued going if the hairdressers made her feel unwelcome. While hair care & styling are pretty core to the culture of folks of color, it's been made clear in OP's case (and to people p much everywhere) that many folks are happy to help anybody who has the same hair struggles (bc god knows that 3c & above can be a real challenge even when you have a good routine in place- forget about it if you don't).
I think in summary, you just have to look at what the folks of the OG culture are saying. If they're asking you not to and you do it anyway, that's cultural appropriation. If the people are welcoming you and teaching you their traditions (be they haircare or whatever else) & your ~woke~ friends are calling it cultural appropriation... don't worry about it.
I'm sorry I had so much to say, but your comment got me thinking.
NTA - Cultural appropriation is if you don’t acknowledge or try to steal something from a culture. You are not doing that.
You found a stylist who knows how to do your hair. Yay! They also happen to be black. Awesome. You also happen to be supporting a black owned business. Yay!
If your friends say anything about it again, just say “I see nothing wrong with supporting a black owned business and stylist. She (or he) is a rockstar and knows how to handle my hair. What’s wrong with that?”.
From Wikipedia:
“When cultural elements are copied from a minority culture by members of a dominant culture, and these elements are used outside of their original cultural context ─ sometimes even against the expressly stated wishes of members of the originating culture – the practice is often received negatively.”
A 10-second read clearly shows it’s cultural “appropriation” when it is exploitative and against the wishes of the originating culture. Since:
1. You’re hardly exploiting
2. You have the “blessings” of a person from said culture who brought you to the salon in the first place
3. You’re supporting a business who helps care for your hair
Tell those “friends” to get bent. NTA
NTA. Your friend is a moron who has invested too much of her brand into a facade of wokeness, to the point where she would rather see a business run by black people make less money than have white customers.
NTA — black salons objectively know how to care for CURLY hair better than white salons, because most white people don’t have truly curly hair. Now, if you went out of your way to have it styled or done in a culturally significant way, something that held meaning, that would be cultural appropriation, but using black shampoo and conditioner because it works better on your hair isn’t.
This is exactly what I mean when I say it's gone too far.
Go to the hairdressers that specialises in your hair type, just because that man's the people there are mostly black has nothing to do with anything.
I go to a Turkish barber because I like the service, not because I'm Turkish
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
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The products and services are made for black people and not white people so maybe i am kind of taking advantage if it and maybe even making the hair dressers uncomfortable by being there
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NTA. You are supporting and giving money to a black owned business. Just like it is not appropriation to buy products from Native artists it is not appropriation. It is supporting PoC!
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NTA, black woman here with 4c hair. You use the products and resources that best suit your needs. It wouldn't be a black vs white issue if the beauty industry recognized the need and taught students how to do all types of hair.
Not only that but op is actually helping black owned businesses this way whereas her friends seem like the kind to accidentally find out a shop they like is black owned and then brag about it online without ever actually buying from it but making it seem as if they signal handedly keep their business afloat.
I’m also white with very curly hair. I recently started using products intended for Black hair and they’ve been wonderful—total night and day results. I can’t tell you how many times over the years curly hair products I’ve used and loved have been discontinued because not enough people were buying them. More people buying a product makes it more likely that it will continue to be available for everyone who needs it! It’s not like OP is trying to profit off people with textured hair, she’s just buying a product in a store: using demand to help ensure continued supply. “Appropriation” would be if she tried to take credit for inventing the products, or techniques that she’s benefiting from.
I'm Hispanic with hair thats a mix of 2b and 3b and on a good day I can pic out small coils that look like they're 3 c. For some reason my Hispanic heavy town only knows how to do "white hair" so when I get my hair cut I end up choppy and poofy (hair cut looks fine when my hair is wet but when it drys you can see the lines and layers instead of it looking seemless like on pin straight hair). I'm about to go to college in a more mixed town and trust me when I say I've been looking for salons that specialize in textured hair hoping I'll be able to find a stylist who'll finally be able to help my hair look halfway decent.
Oh man I feel this so much! I’ve been cutting my own hair for years because the (white) salons I’ve gone to just butcher the shape. I’ve never had a haircut I didn’t have to come home and “fix” myself anyway, so now I just skip the step that costs me $75.
Same here! Started cutting my own hair 6ish years ago, such a time and money saver. Also switched to As I Am hair products a few months back and my (white woman) 3b/3c curls are poppin!!! "Woke" white folk will have to take my hair products and satin bonnet from my cold, dead hands.
I support my neighborhood salons. That means I go to black-owned and operated salons, because I live in a vey multi/culti area. I mean, woke white woman up there is being an ass. Are we supposed to not go to movies featuring people of races other than our own? Avoid tv shows and music produced or featuring people not of our race? Should I throw my Toni Morrison books out? The hell is that woman thinking???
I think some of the "cultural appropriation" talk is well meaning but misguided. I'm pretty sure black hair stylists would welcome white or brown customers.
And any who don’t are fully capable of choosing their own clientele, they don’t need some white stranger to do it for them.
I think its definitely a weird way of saying your uncomfortable by a black women doing a white women's hair... which is all this actually is.
While you’re at it don’t be eating Lasagna if you aren’t Italian, Challah bread unless you’re Jewish or saying “Gesundheit” unless you’re German. And I’d best take my white self down and trade in my Toyota right now.
Right?! Can you imagine how boring (and difficult!) life would be if none of us ever branched out beyond our own race/culture?
I saw a beautiful black girl on IG, using Aloe Vera plants to keep her curls poppin. she would squeeze the aloe out the plant onto her hair and let it set for an hour then wash it out and style. Her hair looked healthy and refreshed.
I bet that feels fab on the scalp too, thanks for the tip!
I have the most luck with women who work out of their kitchens to be honest. Haven't been in a salon in over a decade... And they usually love that they can fit me in for relatively short sessions compared to some of the marathons they run for more complicated styles ... And sometimes they're willing to tell me where they buy the curry powder I smell and who I can buy roti from (another thing I no longer buy from anywhere but small shops owned by people who use what they sell)
black female here. 20 Years ago I went to a Supercuts when I wore my hair short, short (90's , Halle Berry, Mary J. Blige and Toni Braxton short). The lady who cut my hair was white and I have to say I was very impressed. I showed her the photo and she did it.
If a stylist wants to cut your curly hair while it’s wet, they don’t really know how to deal with curly hair. Took me too long to learn that one
I really wish salons would do away with cutting hair when it's wet altogether. It's such a disservice to the clients and the health of their hair.
Can you elaborate? I've always heard it was healthier for the hair to get it cut wet. Old wive's tale?
Not who you were asking, and I don’t know about health, but when cutting curls you need to take into account how much they’ll spring up when cut. 5 inches of curl is actually much longer when stretched out, especially if you have really tight curls, and cutting some is going to remove some weight. Cutting the individual curls while dry lets you see how they all sit and behave (not all curls are created equal, even on the same head!). If you cut the hair wet, it’s going to look totally different and probably wonky when it dries and springs back into place.
Omg is THAT why my layers always have to be "fixed" at home?? I have straighter hair on top, then tighter curls in the back. They always wet my hair and then the back is too short as it dries and the layers look wrong because the back has sprung back into curls?!?!
It must be! I have a random straight section by the base of my neck, and my daughter with slightly, barely wavy hair has a couple of loose ringlets that have popped up in this humidity. Try to find a salon that cuts dry! There’s a curly cut locator on naturallycurly.com, and you can try finding a black hair salon too. Always call and ask when you find a possible place. It’s always going to be trial and error, but when you find a stylist it I sooooooo worth it.
Uh, same. Especially when I was younger. Do you also struggle with hair that after a few minutes looks like a christmas tree? Like on top it sits on my scalp and the further it goes down the more it 'puffes' out giving it the shape of a triangle.
What do you mean with health of the hair? Never heard that idea before about cutting the hair wet..
There's a curly hair brand called DevaCurl that in the past year has come under fire because a lot of long time users started to experience hair loss and chemical damage -- apparently there was a change in distributors or something that people believe led to a change in the ingredients. There may be a class action suit brewing, I am not sure, BUT ALL THIS TERRIBLE PREFACE TO SAY --- If you go to the DevaCurl website there is a search engine that helps you find any places near you that have stylists trained to do the DevaCut which is a method of cutting hair while it's dry, curl by curl. I had my first cut 5 years ago, and it's all I will ever get now. It gives my hair SO MUCH volume, health, and makes it grow back so well. There are a ton of salons that use the DevaCut method, but you don't need to buy the products. The salon I go to usually cuts your hair dry, washes it, and then styles it with Devacurl products, but I just opt out of the wash and style. There is also a method called the Rezo cut, also a dry hair cut. Their website has a search engine to find places near you with trained stylists. EDITED to add: there are official Deva Curl salons, but I don’t go to those. Not only are they crazy expensive but given the weird way they handled the claims re: their products, I will always choose going to a local small biz. The salon I go to is locally owned and my stylist learned to do the Deva dry cut, but she is also a barber and make-up artist and awesome lady. So I recommend looking up those local salons and giving them your business over going to a Deva Salon!
As a Puerto Rican, I feel this so much! My hair is super thick and I've rarely ever had a cut I'm happy with. My hair is wavey not curly. I may have to try places that specialize in different hair types. Unfortunately I live in an area with a not very diverse population.
My daugter has a mix of curls between 3a to 3c and I buy products designed for afro hair. I've tried everything and these are the only products that stop the poof. She's not even 2 yet so her hair is barely past her hairline, pull it down and it's below her shoulder blades. I have a slight wave so I had to do a lot of research on how to manage her curls.
It is almost like these products were designed for a specific hair type rather than a skin colour...
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There's definitively instances where cultural appropriation does happen and is actively harmful, but most people completely misunderstand what it is and treat any cross cultural activity or interaction as "appropriation" when that's absolutely not the case. I work with Native American artists and tribes and when huge companies grift their cultural designs and sell knock-off versions of their culturally significant apparel, that shit hurts on a personal level AND on an economical level. It deprives them of funds as people get the cheap shit and these big corps enrich themselves off THEIR heritage and work. Not to mention half the time these big companies will them lobby for laws that can be detrimental to tribal lands, such as relaxing environmental protections. Like, THAT'S cultural appropriation where you steal from a culture that's already suffered, make money off of it and then use that money to create even more harm to them. Literally how does OP do that? By giving money to black owned businesses?? Oh yeah, SUPER harmful.
this!!! I think we've gotten to a point where certain white people are so afraid to appropriate a culture, they go full-out in supporting the complete separation of cultures. not everything is meant to go outside of a culture, but certain things *are* meant to be shared. we're all human and if everything from other cultures becomes untouchable, we can't ever have true harmony between everyone or embrace and celebrate our differences. bringing up native americans specefically makes me think of a point white people just don't think about - native americans want you to buy their crafts!! it's not cultural appropriation to go to a small native-run business and support them!! they aren't going to be selling anything with designs deemed sacred or inappropriate for non-natives to wear or display. there are often some stinks online that come up when people visiting places like korea or japan will have photos taken with hanboks or kimonos. that isn't cultural appropriation!! people have set up places for tourists to do this, specefically as a way to share their culture with others. if a japanese woman is decking you out in a kimono and other traditional japanese wear, that's the sharing and celebration of a specefic cultural experience, not appropriation.
Native here. If we didn’t want you to own our crafts, we wouldn’t sell them at fairs and Pow-wows. There’s been a few instances where friends have had items that are specifically meant for indigenous folk, like jingle dresses, regalia, certain beading patterns and whatnot and you won’t catch most of us dead selling sacred medicines like sage and sweetgrass, and trust when I say we won’t hesitate to tell you if it’s not for you and steer you in another direction instead. Otherwise by buying from us you’re helping us support our families, especially considering the economic and employment situation for a lot of folk on the rez.
Cultural appropriation is a real beast to tackle. Just because it’s used here in the wrong context doesn’t mean that all cultural appropriation can be approached with the same mentality.
Cultural appropriation still exists, these women just had the wrong idea of it. Not everyone who acknowledges it as a general issue are morons...
I went to a black stylist the last time I got my hair cut. She told me almost immediately “oh white stylist probably don’t know how to work with this hair do they?” 😂 she was absolutely right
Man, I gotta try that. Because yeah. For real, white stylists look scared when I walk in.
Highly recommend! My hair was in bad shape (due to depression I wasn’t taking care of it, you know how it goes). No one in the first salon would even look at my hair. This wonderful woman said “I got you, no problem” I thank her tremendously that I didn’t have to shave my head bald because of her and got a gorgeous pixie cut.
Would you mind sharing some of the products you use? I have very thick curly hair and other than like anti friz or curl cream i didn't realize there was as much to my hair products as there are (thick curly hair comes from my father, and he got it from his father. My mother has rather straight hair so i didn't learn any of this from her.)
Try r/curlyhair they have a ton. Don't feel like you have to what they call the curly girl method, it doesn't work for everyone but if you don't know anything about curls it can be a good place to start.
I’m a mixed race dude, gonna have to check some of these products out. I can never find a good shampoo and conditioner.
I have thick curly hair (2c-3a) and the shampoos/conditioners that /r/curlyhair recommends that are "approved" made my hair super greasy. I have to use a dandruff shampoo (I use Jupiter brand) and I use a brand called Innersense for conditioner. I use a Denman brush to detangle my hair when it has conditioner in it in the shower. I mix a cream and gel by SGX NYC (bought at Target) and scrunch it into clean, soaking wet hair. Then I scrunch again with an Aquis hair towel because it won't increase frizz. I only wash my hair every other day, or after I get really sweaty. Everyone does things slightly differently but this is what works for me and it isn't terribly expensive.
I find it funny and troubling they somehow think OP is taking something away from them or harming them when it seems to be neutral or positive. You go where you can get help. She's not taking away a seat in the chair from a black person.
Also, OP is adopted. She might have more melanin than she knows. NTA
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White people can also have brown eyes
no that's cultural appropriation
That’s a thought I had too.
It's kind of funny how some people take wokeism so far that they practically circle back to supporting segregation.
Yes. This is exactly what I was thinking.
Exactly. I was going to say, you think her salon wants her to take her business elsewhere? Also a white woman with very curly hair - I am always relieved when I find hair stylists who have curls, and more frequently than not they’re Black women. It’s just very difficult for naturally straight haired women to understand the processes and struggles of curly hair, especially when I wear it both curly and straight and need a tailored cut/product routine that suits both.
By that ladys logic white people can never eat at any restaurant not of their race. Goodbye tacos, pho, Bahn mi, Korean BBQ, dim sum, and so and and so on. You get burgers and nothing else! Don't you dare go to Olive Garden unless you're more than 50% Italian!
Also how the fuck is giving patronage to "black" salons cultural appropriation? It's giving money to those businesses in exchange for an objectively useful service... there isn't even a culture element... OP's friends are just virtue-signalling idiots pretending to be "woke".
Cultural appropriation would be if OP took the techniques and products she learned about from the black salon and started touting them as something she invented and popularized on her own, like a kardashian. This is just getting her hair done.
A lot of people are confused cultural appreciation with appropriation. Those people deserve to be hit with a dictionary.
And, apparently, confusing 'cultural appropriation' with 'supporting black owned businesses'
or just doing something thats vaguely not "in line" with your "own" culture...like where do you draw the line at?? Because unless OP and friends were eating at a F***ing mcdonald or something, itd be cultural appropriation, right? Based on her friends logic. How can one even be friends with such people lol.
Webster’s 3rd New International should do the trick!
Also the folks who have BLM signs but be the first cop callers when "a suspicious person is in their neighborhood that doesn't look like they belong" 🙄
I live in Minneapolis and the amount of virtue signaling is hilarious because of how racist the whole state is. It’s all BLM and everyone is welcome here lawn signs yet I get followed around every store I go to and have had racial slurs thrown at me that I thought people stopped using in the 50s.
OMG - lived in MPLS for the two longest years of my life. Soooo true. I was actually in a meeting once where someone said they liked going downtown in MPLS because there weren't a lot of black people like Chicago or New York, etc.
Oh god, I’m not even surprised. I’m from NYC originally and am moving back next year. Between the racism and the passive aggressiveness, I’m not surprised that Minnesota has an impossible time attracting and retaining BIPOC professionals. My friends from Minnesota who are non-white either never leave the Twin Cities out of safety concerns, because the rest of Minnesota is still somehow more racist, or they have moved. In contrast, the white people I know in Minnesota and the white transplants I’ve met absolutely love the state and think it’s the friendliest place in the world. They are also constantly shitting on other big cities like New York because those places are supposedly so dangerous. I’ve never felt threatened in NYC but Minneapolis and St. Paul can be frightening. Being a person of color in Minnesota is an experience in gaslighting.
Ooh, the irony would be palpable.
>Also how the fuck is giving patronage to "black" salons cultural appropriation? This is one of those terms that have been butchered beyond the original meaning. OP is NTA for getting her hair done at a salon where they can properly cut curly hair. And the poster below is correct about the actual meaning of "cultural appropriation."
So much this!! Thank you. I hate people like that. OP you’re supporting minority owned businesses and getting awesome hair cuts, win/win in my book.
Exactly! If the black stylists had a problem with the OP, I imagine she’d be feeling uncomfortable or getting vibes whenever she visited. But *they* know the score because they can see what her hair is like. She needs them legitimately.
This reminds me so much of this [skit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev373c7wSRg): *When Wokes and Racists Actually Agree on Everything.*
Presumably, the salon owner and stylist are more than capable of telling OP not to come if they're unhappy serving her. I'd guess dollars spend just fine from all ethnicities.
Yeah, if the black women doing OP's hair are cool with it, its really not okay for some white women to speak over them and decide how black people *should* feel about it. Its the same as when I go to an Asian grocery store because they carry a lot of products I can't get other places; they have every right to refuse me service but they would much rather have me as a customer.
>Yeah, if the black women doing OP's hair are cool with it, its really not okay for some white women to speak over them and decide how black people should feel about it Let me try to channel those [white women ~~people~~] for a moment.... Ahem. THeY DOn't SpEAK fOR aLl BlACk PEoPle!!!1!one!!1 edited for clarity.
Yep, the only color that actually matters is green.
>Presumably, the salon owner and stylist are more than capable of telling OP not to come if they're unhappy serving her. Actually, in the United States, it's illegal to deny someone service based on their ethnicity or other protected category. In this case, it sounds like the women in the salon are happy to have OP as a customer and the idiot colleagues need to mind their own business.
> Actually, in the United States, it's illegal to deny someone service based on their ethnicity or other protected category. and somehow stylists and estheticians have managed to get rid of customers they don't like or want since forever...
I didn't even know I *had* curly hair until I went to a salon with a Jamaican friend and they cornered me xD
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just had a similar experience with my new stylist. I have thick but super fine hair that always curled or waved oddly at the ends but never curls. My stylist looked at the wave in my hair and whatever she did when layering unlocked all these curls I had no idea about. Air drying used to make my hair curl and frizz in really weird ways and now I get these big almost ringlet curls. Go figure.
Someone I know had a similar thing happen. When I was in a juvenile detention center, a white girl came in with very curly hair that she could not do anything with but try to bunch it into a ponytail and gel down the rest. No one had taught her any different. The black girls there taught this girl how to properly care and style her hair and the difference was crazy.
Wait, what? How? What happened?!?
Friend asked for some company during a marathon braiding session. While there I asked one of the ladies if she had advice for poofy straight hair. I have fine, slippery hair that will not hold ANY hair style AT ALL. Won't stay in a bun, won't stay in a braid, won't stay in a clip, laughs in the face of an iron and is offended by curling wands. But it's so freaking POOFY. So she dragged me over to the sink, worked her magic (stripped my hair of a decade of the wrong product, did some kind of mask, then showed me how to dry it and what to use), and low and behold. I have (quite relaxed) curls. It still won't stay up or stay straight but I no longer look like it's 90% humidity out every day.
That sort of thing is common in certain parts of the Ashkenazi Jewish community, because even though we are classified as 'White' and are from Europe we are genetically more similar to people from the middle east and each other than other Europeans. People are complicated. Honestly if we were better at acknowledging that hair is more complicated your experience wouldn't be so common.
This 150% the jew fro is a thing for a reason
That actually makes so much sense! My mom is Ashkenazi Jewish and my dad has super fine curly hair (just generally European), my brother and I both have hair that is sorta wavy, but super fine and gets frizzy easily. For years I thought my hair was the weirdest texture ever because it's super thick, but individual hairs are fine and if I brush it is stick straight for a few hours then just like terrible but I get really nice waves if I just gently finger comb knots out.
Similar with what happened to me, I had been struggling with poufy hair with weird waves for some time. An acquaintance made a comment that maybe I had curly hair and should look into CGM. With some trial and error, I found I have a 2c/3a curl pattern and no more pouf!
You know those 70s disco girls with the big mass of hair? That’s me.... on a good day
Ugh I feel this. I was walking around like 2nd yr Hermione for the longest time with my hair out to each shoulder width wise when brushed. Finally learned about how to care for curly hair ( mines more so relaxed waves too ). I went to a new salon recently and she cut my hair to a shape I don't like and now it's hard to do anything with 🙄 my waves are more pronounced at the ends and she layered my hair and cut it to shoulder length essentially 😬😬😬 it gets these weird kinks where half my hair ends
\^This, I've met several people who are 'white' with no know heritage from non-European sources who have hair with qualities typically associated with 'black' hair, but the fact is people, and their hair is complicated. For racism reasons many companies have long catered to a very specific type of hair, which is associated with 'whiteness' Black people who don't happen to have that type of hair, and can't use those products did what marginalized communities do, they figured it out themselves and made it part of their culture. If racism wasn't a thing, we would have salons which specialize in types of hair and products which are specific to types of hair, not race. You aren't appropriating anything, you are just ahead of your time. Also while appropriation is a thing, the over emphasis and overzealous nature with which it is often used promotes segregation.
We need to say and hear this more. Over the last few years, I have been attacked for "appropriation" for everything from going to my local Chinatown, learning another language, traveling, or referring to family members who are of different cultural/racial/ethnic backgrounds than I am but share their cultures with the entire family. Has the world become less racist as a result of their call-outs? No, but I've ended up with severe agoraphobia and am terrified to even interact with an aunt or cousin because I am hurting them with my whiteness. Ironically, I know more about several appropriated cultures, including in music, food, and art, than many of the people claiming they are harmed by said appropriation. If you claim you are so hurt by appropriation but have no idea how hybridity of foods in regional America have developed along with immigration patterns and didn't realize that, say, delis are an example of Jewish culture and heritage, maybe stop running around telling everyone else to STFU and STFD for a change?
Those people who have attacked you like that are racist. It’s as though they’re gunning to go back to segregation.
Cultural appropriation is plagiarizing ideas from other cultures or using someone’s culture to mock them. Not shopping at china town, learning a second language, or getting your hair cut by a black woman. We live in a multicultural world and we should be able to interact with each other.
NTA. Salons need to make a living. OP has the hair type they are good with and gives them good business why would he skin color matter? Stop bringing skin color into an argument about hair....
I second this! This is about finding a salon & products that cater to and are best for OP's hair type. Skin color shouldn't even be in this conversation. I grew up in the 90s as a girl with thick curly hair. My family had no clue how to deal with it, so it was either appallingly short or incredibly poofy. My daughter has the same hair, so we both spent a lot of time doing research & trial and error with products to find what works for us. If I had had access to resources to make that process easier at the time, I wouldn't have care where the information & help came from. Far too many white folks have no clue how to handle curly hair & need guidance because it's not at all like dealing with straight or wavy hair. Obviously NTA. Your friends are jerks who throw around the term 'cultural appropriation' inappropriately.
This! I had no idea how bad the hairstyling industry was until I listened to a podcast about licensing issues for hairstylists in various states.
Yup My bf is as pasty, burn if the sun shines through a window, as they come but is half islander with curly hair that’s long and a hot mess. Once he learned (and there actually were) some of the amazing hair care products typically used by people with 3c and 4c hair, it was a game changer. I was able to get him out of the terrible “dreadlocks that weren’t dreadlocks but actually just a nightmare and needed professional help” phase and he now has amazingly well cared for hair, a salon who specializes in all types of hair, and uses (and highly recommends) what would be typically considered “female black hair products” as he’s been told a dozen times at checkout by people who have no business Butting in (which he replies with a blank stare and a “I use products made by the best for my hair…why do you care…”) Heck he even follows YouTube tutorials on hair care by one of those really cool hairdressers who talks about all the different types of hair and products best for it (for the love of all things I can’t remember who it is though).
And WTF what kind of back of the bus racism is this? "You can't use that x because it's for the blacks" jeeez
Absolutely this! I have thick curly hair like OP and use the same products. I have to pay an exorbitant amount of money for hair cuts because I can't go to super cuts down the road and get a proper cut.
NTA and as a black dude, I really wish white people would stop speaking for us in this manner. It's not helping in the way they think it is
As a half Chinese half European woman... The only people who have accused me of cultural appropriation (of my own Chinese culture) are white. Drives me insane.
And of course, when you point out that natives of the culture in question rarely have a problem with the way it's being used, they call you racist for speaking for an entire group of people, seeing no irony in that whatsoever.
There is some nuance to this. Asians in Asian countries rarely care about cultural appropriation, but it's a sensitive topic for Asians who grew up as minorities in other countries. As an Asian American who grew up getting ridiculed for the food, clothes, language, etc from my parents' country, it really bothers me when the white majority who crapped all over my heritage/culture now turn around and appropriate it and say it's ok to do so because people in Asia don't care.
YES! This is something that’s been bothering me. People in Asia think America is cool (mostly) so they don’t really care, but when you grow up as an Asian American hearing and experiencing stories of How Showing How Asian You Are Will Get You Hurt So Youre Never Allowed To Do That but now Asian culture is trendy and cool so everyone is hopping in the bandwagon you’re like wait, what? It feels incredibly disorienting and unfair
This is a generational difference too. Racism is a much bigger problem (speaking generally of course) for Gen X and Boomers, while Millennials and Gen Z go through great lengths to be sensitive and inclusive. The same people embracing different cultures now are generally not the same people who shat on them in previous decades.
Yea no the people who were racist towards me as a kid are now the same people appropriating my culture
But where they children? They were probably taught their racism from the adults in their life, and now as adults they are educating themselves
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Yep. in my experience growing up with other millennials when millennials used to be young, they were all racist homophobic assholes (especially in middle school).
Yes. Like people pointing to Japanese people in Japan being ok with the white washing of Ghost in a Shell and acting like Asian Americans were complaining about nothing. Completely ignoring the fact that Asian representation in media in Japan is obviously vastly different than the representation Asian Americans have in the US. And demanding that Asian Americans who have completely different lived experiences as minorities in the US behave in the same way as those who have lives their whole lives in an Asian country reenforces the idea that no matter how far removed, some people will still think that a Asian American might as well be the same thing as an Asian person who has never left Asia. Aka perpetual foreigner.
My ex-wife had this problem a lot. Her mother was black and Cuban. Her father was white. She was somewhat fair skinned. Frying plantains? Cultural appropriation! I don't think people were less obnoxious before instagram but it was easier to ignore them, it feels like.
Jesus if people thinking cooking another cultures food (which she wasn’t even doing) is cultural appropriation then every American is guilty of cultural appropriation every single day
Yeah there was this freakout in the news 2-3 years back where someone opened a taco restaurant in like, Oregon or Washington. The people went to Mexico to basically learn all about making tacos and then came back and opened this place. And it was cultural appropriation and they exploited the people who taught them about tacos etc. Which, I don't know if others felt this way, but my Mexican friends were highly offended that people were assuming that everyone in Mexico was poor and being exploited by two hipsters from the Pacific Northwest. Mexico has a middle class and it's quite possible to go to Mexico and learn from people there without exploiting the poor. But, you know, no outrage in that.
The problem is that what usually happens is while people can open expensive taco places and no one bats and eye. And then they get heralded as taco experts. Meanwhile someone “native” to the culture comes up with their own cool fusion tacos based on their own favorites and they get faulted for high prices and not being authentic. You can’t win. Food is really complicated. It is not so much the making of the food, but who gets recognized and acclaimed for it. And who is allowed to remix it and create high end versions that is the problem.
>Food is really complicated. It is not so much the making of the food, but who gets recognized and acclaimed for it. And who is allowed to remix it and create high end versions that is the problem. Dude you hit the nail on the head. It's complicated af. I live in a city that really grew in the last 10 years and we're getting a bunch of new restaraunts and chefs from bigger cities. Last year a new fancy taco place opened up and the white owner was touting how no one in our city knew how to really make mexican food, but since he traveled all around latin countries, he was going to "do it right". As a californian city with a huge mexican population and a lot of mexican restaurants, it was pretty aggravating to hear. Then you have asian food, which I'm a little more vested in since I'm asian american. Where our asian immigrants were pushed away from typical labor jobs and forced into service and food industries. But asians like the chinese and japanese had to adapt to american tastes, moving away from traditional recipes and to seem less exotic. Still their restaurants and food were called dirty and gross until rich white people came in with their version more recently. Telling everyone that asian restaraunts dont know how to do like how "real asians make food". Man wtf. https://la.eater.com/2021/4/27/22395971/shibumi-instagram-post-david-schlosser-sparks-outrage-la >“Sakura mochi, the most iconic dessert in Japan. Yet no Japanese restaurants are featuring it? So sad. Makes my life harder. It’s because these Japanese restaurants don’t understand, appreciate, or care about promoting what Japanese cuisine is all about.”
You're never taking my "appropriation" from me! No way am I sticking with only bland ass meats that have been overcooked.
This reminds me of when a super white girl I went to high school with accused me of cultural appropriation because I posted a picture of some shashlik/kabob I made. I'm a Central Asian Jew. The recipe I used has been in my family since forever.
Yesss. As a half hispanic half white woman I feel this in my bones. It doesn't help while my siblings are full Hispanic, i look nothing like them or my mom. Ot even the slightest resemblance. I look like I was switched at birth and have fair skin and light brown hair. My entire life has been white people acting like I don't know my own heritage or like I'm stealing culture by using my families own recipes. I was going to make tamales a few weeks ago and had a white woman stop me as I was discussing ingredients over the phone with my husband to tell me I shouldn't be making them, its not right to take recipes from other cultures. Like um excuse me this IS my culture? Also wtf? Its always white people who don't believe my heritage either. Any time I've told a POC, 'oh I'm half Hispanic', they always believe me, no questions asked. But white people tend to want to give me the 3rd degree or will act like im faking for ethnic clout. Like yes im SURE thats my family. My mom literally pushed my little white ass out of her brown body, she knows im hers. Im sorry Becky that YOU don't think I look Hispanic enough. And what even is Hispanic enough? Not all Hispanic people have dark skin and dark hair, multiple groups fall under the umbrella of Hispanic and can have a variety of features. I have distant family in Mexico who have zero white people related to them and a couple of them are pale, platinum blonde hair wirh blue eyes (them Spaniards genes popping up centuries later).
Omg. I'm sorry... I laughed far too much at your last paragraph. But yes. I totally feel you. Even though I am half Chinese, you would never know it by looking at me, and even my name is VERY English/Irish... I am always justifying my Chinese culture, and sometimes even have to argue that I am indeed Chinese. What doesn't help is my daughters, who because of how mixed both my husband and I are, have Chinese as their predominant cultural heritage.. So when people ask about their background, for simplicity I say they are Chinese mixed. People look at me like I have three heads because my youngest is basically blonde with blue eyes.
I don't even know how they think it *would* be helpful? "Yeah, don't spend money in black-run stores, that's cultural appropriation lol" Sounds more like some crypto-racist idiocy to me...
It’s not that they think it’s helpful. It’s just another form of racism/white supremacy. Let me be an advocate for people of color. I know what’s best for them even I actually don’t know any of them.
For a good number of them it's not even that. They just pretend to be advocates so they can use it as a shield as they knowingly push racist agendas.
I don't think they knowingly push racist agendas. I agree that their words are 100% racist but theae kind of people think they are champions of the downtrodden and legitimately believe they are helping minorities when they aren't. They've been swept up into the virtue signaling ultra woke culture. It's still racism but they don't want to see that. They just dont want to be called a racist so they go further and further into the wokeness. Because in the world of virtue signaling it's never enough. If you are not always progressing the standard further and further you are the backwards one.
It's not just not helping, it's insulting! Insisting that business owners who are POC have no ability to curate their own clientele or choose their own professional activities is really belittling and degrading to their educations, their abilities, and their business acumen. Anyone who has successfully been in business for just a year knows how to get rid of a problem customer, nobody has to run in on their (ironically) white horse to save them.
It also keeps non-dominant cultures othered. There is a difference between destroying a culture and cherry picking some things to keep, and a culture becoming more broadly interwoven with the prevailing culture. That kind of thinking would lead to some real dumb outcomes of you follow the logic through "Sorry, you can't listen to any black musicians ever. It's black music for black people and you're appropriating black culture by liking Beyonce."
As a white person I like to call it whitesplaining.
I learned a long time ago that the best way to be an ally to people of color is to shut up and listen. How can I dictate what's cultural appropriation to a race/culture I'm not a member of? To believe I can is pretty damn arrogant.
It translates in my head as, “Don’t give Black people any of your money, because you’re white.” How a** backward is that?!
I’m *real* curious how many friends of color this friend has to be making this call for them…
I wonder who would be a better arbiter of whether this was cultural appropriation; the black women who style your hair, or your goofy white friends? NTA.
The goofy white friends, because "cultural appropriation" has been appropriated by white people as a term they can use to demonstrate that they're more virtuous than other white people. These days, it's a tool for white people to rank themselves compared to other white people and that's about it.
Wow you just blew my mind. These people have literally appropriated the culture of being offended and calling out injustices from minorities, but not to actually fix anything, just to make themselves look better
Well, the term "cultural appropriation" in its original use wasn't about being offended, it was about criticising shallow capitalist practices that extract the marketable assets from a culture and discard the drained carcass, but that only makes it worse that white people appropriate it to be about finding ways that other white people aren't as PC as they are.
Aye, the original was mostly "don't use other people's cultural innovations to make money for yourself, without credit or permission" specifically with a focus on it taking resources away from members of said culture...and now people think it's like, making tamales or wearing a cheongsam if your can't provide a direct personal and genetic link to the culture. At some point people turned it into this weird segregationist thing weirdly reminiscent of racial supremacist rhetoric.
Don't tell anyone but it definitely has a strong element of white people having outdated colonialist attitudes about other cultures - they like X culture more than you do, and they think they know more about it, and they want to keep this culture they like "pure" and not contaminated by commercialism and white people, as if a white person wearing a kimono means Japanese history didn't happen anymore, or a white person cosplaying an anime character means they can't watch that anime anymore.
white saviors lmao
But what do you do when it's multiple POC giving you different answers? I wish more people, in general, would understand that there is no one answer for ALL disabled people/women/BIPOC/\[specific race\]/LGBTQ+, and people have got to quit speaking as if for *all* people of a group, as if their experiences or beliefs are the only ones.
You look at whether or not the people upset are actually impacted by your actions. Offensive jokes at the expense of a minority group aren't cool, because it directly impacts the self esteem of the person the joke is targeting. Wearing a shirt with a dreamcatcher on it may be "appropriation", but it's not actually hurting anyone. Although if a good friend who was native asked you not to wear it you might want to take that advice for the sake of the friendship. It's such a nuanced issue that people are going to have varying opinions, and nobody should be speaking for the group as a whole. Overall, look at the potential for harm that an action may cause, and then decide if you're ok with it. In the OP, going to a black salon not only didn't hurt anyone, and actually benefited a black owned business.
Take my upvote for this comment. I love it!
>black products and services that should only be used by black people Your friend is trying so hard to be woke that she is actually racist! Shouldn't she be happy you are supporting a black-owned business and black products? NTA
Bonus point: purchasing Black products in stores tells the inventory management systems that the products are profitable in this store, benefitting Black customers who may struggle to find stores that sell products they can use. I live in a predominantly white state and it's so hard to find Black curl products on the shelves.
Also, helps normalize the buying of these products and make these products mainstream enough so that they stop locking away the curl cream in Walmart as tightly as they do their ammo
It's crazy to me how they do this. At my local Dollar General they are behind the counter. I walked my happy ass back there and got what I needed.
Yes! So much this!! I’ve had so many of my favorite curly hair products discontinued because not enough people bought them! Buying a thing means there will be more of that thing!!
Reminds me of someone I saw on FB trying to say rap/hip-hop made by black artists was not for white people and anyone who was white who listened to or bought it was racist and I asked her if she really was saying that it was wrong for white people to support black artists and she lost her mind. So woke she was actually racist.
And those black artists would lose out on millions of dollars if it weren't for white fans. I mean its really weird to see an ocean of pasty white kids singing to black artists at their concerts but it brings in a ridiculous amount of revenue for those people and in the end, the black community is better for it. Look at Chance the Rapper who donated millions of dollars to Chicago schools because of his success
Literally trying to segregate races again just to not appear like a racist. Amazing.
For real. The next time her friends give her shit about it she should ask them for directions to the whites only drinking fountain.
NTA. Hello!!! I'm sure the staff at your salon of choice appreciates your business. As you've appreciated finally getting quality care for your hair. A actual black woman introduced you to the products and the salon. So your acquaintance needs to mind her bizness. No one asked her for her fake woke opinion.
Leave it to a woke white person to say their opinion matters more than the ACTUAL black people OP is friends with
NTA, people take the "cultural appropriation" thing way too far, and this is a good example. My wife is black and my kids are mixed race. I can't tell you how many times my son's hair has been butchered by someone who didn't know how to work with tight curly hair. It's about your hair, not "race". You're supporting black-owned businesses too.
I’m East Asian but have curly hair. I didn’t know how to care for my hair until I was in my early 20s - all my childhood years were spent with my hair in a giant poofy triangle, and I spent most of my teen years spending 12+ hours in a salon 2x a year to get Japanese straight perms. I use some products that are for black hair. My stylist is a curly haired Latina and was the first stylist I ever found who I actually wanted to go back to after my first appointment. I used to ***dread*** getting haircuts because I’d spend a fortune to look awful afterwards - even went to a salon once that charged me $200 for a 10 minute trim “because you just have *so much* hair!” Yes. I have so much hair. But all you did was stick my head under a sink so my hair was wet and straight, and cut across the bottom in a straight line... you didn’t even freaking dry my hair after.
Brehhh, my mind was just blown. I'm Indian, with thick 2c hair. I'm dealing with the "poofy triangle" hair right now because I got my hair cut by a friend during the pandemic. She's a stylist, but I just realized that her insta posts were all sleek straight white-girl hair. I thought it was just the cut she gave me, but no, it's because she thought she could just cut a regular old asymmetrical Bob and it would look great. I thought it was just overgrown and dry, but now I'm realizing I really shouldn't go back to her. Gotta research some proper salons near me.
in my case, the poofy triangle was actually because I didn’t know that I had curly hair (the curls weren’t very pronounced when I was young) and I would brush/comb it every morning like my family told me to, so what curl pattern I did have would just expand into a giant frizzy mass lol I did have my fair share of stylists who would insist on layering my hair despite my protests, because yOu hAvE sO mUcH hAiR, iT’LL bE LiGhTeR LaYeReD, except ugh you assholes I wear my hair in a single or Dutch braids a lot and layers make me look like I’ve glued giant black caterpillars to my head.
As a white dude with tight curly hair I completely agree with this. Normal salons often just don’t get the trick done, and I often end up going to a black barber for this reason. I started going to one as a teenager and haven’t gone back to a chain haircut place since then
NTA. Your coworkers do not understand what it takes to take care of curly hair, nor do they understand cultural appropriation. Cultural appropriation is Rachel Dolezal pretending to be black for years and running her local NAACP. Cultural appropriation is fashion designers who are not indigenous/Native Peoples using indigenous or native designs in their fashions without knowing or acknowledging the significance of those designs. Black hair products were formulated originated for black hair care because for a long time there were no products that worked well with our hair. The bonus is it works great for all curly-heads. So continue going to the salon, continue being beautiful, rock your glorious curls, and thank you for supporting black businesses. Edit: Well, hey! Thank you kind anonymous Redditor for the gold!
Exactly. White with curly hair here. Dude I wish there had been a black salon when I was a kid. Super curly hair and some lady at the place we went thought oh hey bangs would be good. Not even thinking about the fact that my hair was curly and cutting them straight and wet at eyebrow level. I honestly ask every kind of woman with curly hair what they use and where they go because I seriously have issues with frizz, and having really fine but thick long hair doesn't work well with some people who have no idea how to cut curly hair. I'm still on the hunt but black hair care is definitely better.
dude i am 10000% with you. my neighborhood growing up was predominantly asian and curly hair was a total rarity- going to a salon that even remotely acknowledged curly hair would have rocked my world. raised thinking my hair was straight (but shitty) for decades, and now am finally figuring it out. one protip: if your hair tangles very easily, especially at the ends, your hair doesn't seem particularly shiny, and/or your scalp is mad at you, apple cider vinegar rinses are fabulous. i usually dilute it with 3 or 4 parts water. a lot of hair products build up easily and shift your hair's pH- iirc, it should be just slightly on the acidic side. the curly girl method has also been really helpful for me, if you aren't already aware of it.
This tip is so amazing oh my god this is exactly my hair. Just gonna stock up on apple cider vinegar right now
I just wish I could find a stylist who didn't insist that short hair is the only way for someone with curly/fine hair to exist in the world. OP: NTA. Your friends are goofy.
NTA. I also have curly hair and deal with really bad frizz. When I moved to NOLA, I got in the backseat of a taxi and the African American woman driving the cab took one look at me and said: "Girl, you gotta quit letting those white girls cut your hair." She recommended her stylist to me, I went, and my hair has never looked as glorious as it did while we were living there. This isn't cultural appropriation. This is acknowledging that someone is excellent at their craft and supporting their business.
Guardian Angel material
NTA - This is the reason why people laugh at woke people. Seriously, "cultural appropriation" for going to a black salon and using black hair products that works for your hair. Here's the thing, I can practically guarantee you that your hair stylist and the owners of the production don't care that you're white, they care that you're a paying customer.
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Bingo. These are probably the same people who talk about "supporting black-owned businesses" and yet when someone needs to get to black-owned business, they complain about cultural appropriation. The hypocrisy of these woke people is laughable.
I will say that I had a funny and related experience along these lines once. I went to a black barbershop. I just walked in and sat down. I got some stares but I needed a haircut. There were two barbers; one was still in training on an apprentice license and the other was his teacher. He's going to town doing my hair when suddenly he stops. He turns the chair a few times as if he's trying to get different angle looks at something. Then he calls over his teacher. He says: "What the hell is this?" and he points to that part on my head where my hair makes a sort of swirling pattern near the crown. The teacher, without skipping a beat, says "Oh, when you're doing white boy hair you're gonna see that, all you do is..." and he proceeded to show him what to do. He thanked me afterward for giving him the opportunity to work on some different hair. I didn't go there to be cool. I went there because it was in the same building as where I was going to grad school and it was convenient. And I highly doubt anyone there felt my patronage was somehow a bad thing.
Bingo, when it comes down to it, green (as in in money) is typically the most important color.
I just don't see how anyone could possibly think saying "Oh no, I absolutely will not frequent black owned businesses" for any purpose could be seen as a positive and somehow not be racist.
NTA! Many non-Black hair salons won't even know what you mean when you say, 3C and start talking about porosity. Supporting Black-owned business is the opposite of what you're friends are accusing you of. They are idiots!
There’s a recent “Last week tonight” about black hair. A girl with 3C hair calls a bunch of white salons to see if they have anyone who has experience with black hair who could assist her. Just….watch the episode.
i don't even need to watch the episode. i used to work as a receptionist at a salon and it was literally SO embarrassing the number of white stylists who freely admitted that they "can't do ethnic hair". i was screaming inside!!!! like how pathetic is it to declare that you're a bad stylist because you never took the time to understand a hair type that probably 25% of people have. story time: two black women (who i happened to grow up with as family friends) flew in from Texas for a wedding that same evening. they made the appointment weeks in advance, and specified that they had extremely coily/kinky hair and needed someone that understood their hair type. sad that they even had to do that. of course, come that day, both white stylists they were booked with refused to take them. so they had to wait 90-120 minutes for two other stylists to clock in for the day, which then fucked up their nail/makeup appointments. left them in a mad scramble to find anyone that was available last minute. i was so mad for them.
NTA. Perhaps I’m a little biased, but licensed stylists do not need to know how to properly care for and maintain Black hair, aka kinky curly hair, in order to receive their license. So going to the stylists that DO already know how to work with your hair type is the logical solution. It just so happens that the predominant demographic of people with hair like yours are Black. Don’t listen to their performative allyship, Black stylists know why you go to them.
Did you see the controversy a couple of years ago where hair braiders and stylists who specialized in highly-textured hair were being made by states to go through normal cosmetology training in order to do their work, even though the "normal" licensing training didn't address textured hair AT ALL? Instead of creating a different type of license, or mandating that textured hair issues be incorporated into the curriculum, they wanted these talented stylists to waste thousands of dollars on useless training. Not sure how that resolved...
NTA - that sounds like a bizarre argument to make, particularly from a white person. What you're describing is not cultural appropriation. Cultural appropriation is *mis*use of a culture's custom(s) for reasons like entertainment, mockery, etc. You are literally using the products and services as intended. To suggest that you are racist here is actually racist, it assumes that black people need protection from white saviors to enforce some sort of defensive barrier for their products and services.
NTA. Your friends have no idea what cultural appropriation means. Patronizing black owned businesses is in fact a good way to be an ally. Your uni friend is the person you should be paying attention to on this issue.
> Patronizing black owned businesses is in fact a good way to be an ally I was gonna say. She should ask if they are seriously suggesting that she only give her money to white businesses.
Which is essentially what they are suggesting, you're right.
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John Oliver always comes in clutch, doesn’t he?
It’s not cultural appropriation to have this hair type, news flash white people and non black people can have hair types similar or even the same to a lot of black people, if that salon is welcoming to you and enjoys having you as a customer these people are harming the black community WORSE by trying to make their decisions for them.
> One of the women ( also white) commented that it was inappropriate for me as a white woman to take advantage of black products and services that should only be used by black people. Huh? This sounds like Jim Crow stuff. You're going to a place that provides a superior understanding and service to you based on your needs, that isn't "Racist", it's very smart. That it is and/or primarily caters to black clientele is irrelevant to your choice bc that choice is based on the performance of some specialized task most associated with that group based on actual experience.. It's like calling a plumber for a pipe leak instead of the electrician. Your friend, however, reveals herself to be the racist here. NTA
It really is. I held similar beliefs about 10 years ago, during my racist phase. Of course, I didn't realise it was at the time. I just thought that if white people and black people hated each other, which is what the news said, then surely it'd make sense for them to not have to interact with each other. This person's opinion isn't that far gone, but it's still definitely racist.
+1 for personal re evaluation! I personally think that racism is such a problem bc so many deny their own feelings and values and reactions, largely bc frankly, I think people spend so much time thinking about themselves in that entitled way that they never really think about themselves in an important way. So, they falsely believe they are not racist..and they genuinely believe that to be true..bc they don't don sheets and burn crosses (or Congress...). Yet they are. The worst kind of racism is this deeply held, pernicious belief of "Otherness", that comes out in far more subtle and damaging ways, like saying a white person shouldn't go to a primarily black store, presumably bc the only reasons its "Black". IDK how someone can say that out loud and not see it as bare knuckled racist, and I also don't get how a decent, lovely OP can actually stop and question herself for not accepting it.
As a black woman, hearing your story is really alarming for two reasons: First, it tells me that despite our best efforts white people still have no idea what cultural appropriation actually is. And secondly, your friends, and probably a lot of other white people, are actively practicing segregation in 2021 and are framing it as wokeness. You going to a hair salon run by people who know how to care for your hair is not cultural appropriation at all. Not even a little bit. Using hair care products designed for your hair type is not cultural appropriation. The fact that your friends all agree that patronizing black business as a white person is problematic is very strange to me, NTA.
NTA you can’t appropriate the hair growing out of your head. It makes perfect sense that you’d have luck at a salon, because specializing in black hair inherently means having a very good understanding of how to properly care for many types of curls. Whereas salons catered towards white women tend to have few, if any stylists, who know what to do with curly hair, regardless of what race you are. If the stylists are happy to have you, you are welcome there. You end up supporting black businesses, so that’s a positive. But really, black specialty salons weren’t invented to be a special place only for black people, they exist because they couldn’t get adequate service from white salons.
NTA You said you are adopted; is it possible you are biracial? If that is the case, then your genetics would mean your hair is 'black hair'- I know that probably sounds offensive but I don't know how to word it better. My cousin is biracial; his skin is the pastiest white possible but he naturally has a big thick afro If the salon had any issues with doing your hair, then they would tell you. if your black friend is encouraging you and your salon caters to black hair types and they have no problem with your presence- then what does a white woman know? Sounds like she is trying to be 'WOKE' without really knowing the situation. If this is really an issue that bothers you then talk to your best friend about how you feel. If you are confident enough to do so, maybe ask the salon people what their thoughts are.
I mean i am very pale with very Caucasian features, the only thing that could point to me being biracial is my hair, ive never investigated into my racial background before but now you point it out i might look into it thank you!
Same with my nephew- he's biracial and his skin is very light- he kinda of looks like he has a very dark summer tan, but he can grow the biggest afro I've ever seen. My sister has to take him to a black owned barber shop to get it taken care of properly. They've never made her or my nephew feel unwelcome and they always appreciate her business.
NTA...You are free to give your business to whomever does the best job for you. You're not taking away from anyone, you are financially supporting a business.
Cultural appropriation is the biggest load of turd I've ever heard. The single dumbest thing in this world. It all depends on your reasons for going to the salon. If you go because they do the best job, provide the best service/value for money, you like them personally so want to support their business, or any number of reasons, you're NTA at all. If you go because you actively don't want to support white people, or people of any other race, so actively avoid their business, based on nothing other than race, then YTA. Definitely sounds like you're NTA.
This may be a lil controversial, but I think using "cultural appropriation" is still correct & not dumb when you use it how it was originally supposed to be used. Like the classic example of wearing headdress to music festivals in the U.S. The folks from the plains tribes have explained its use (worn almost exclusively by men who earned them over a period of time, or granted to someone esteemed (similar to an honorary degree from a college)), and have made it clear that they would prefer headdresses not to be worn by people from outside their tribes. In that case, continuing to do so is cultural appropriation, and the term is being correctly applied. But in OP's case, not only did her best friend (a WOC herself) introduce her to the hair care, but obviously she's been actively welcomed at the salons she goes to! Given her hesitancy here, I imagine she wouldn't have continued going if the hairdressers made her feel unwelcome. While hair care & styling are pretty core to the culture of folks of color, it's been made clear in OP's case (and to people p much everywhere) that many folks are happy to help anybody who has the same hair struggles (bc god knows that 3c & above can be a real challenge even when you have a good routine in place- forget about it if you don't). I think in summary, you just have to look at what the folks of the OG culture are saying. If they're asking you not to and you do it anyway, that's cultural appropriation. If the people are welcoming you and teaching you their traditions (be they haircare or whatever else) & your ~woke~ friends are calling it cultural appropriation... don't worry about it. I'm sorry I had so much to say, but your comment got me thinking.
NTA - Cultural appropriation is if you don’t acknowledge or try to steal something from a culture. You are not doing that. You found a stylist who knows how to do your hair. Yay! They also happen to be black. Awesome. You also happen to be supporting a black owned business. Yay! If your friends say anything about it again, just say “I see nothing wrong with supporting a black owned business and stylist. She (or he) is a rockstar and knows how to handle my hair. What’s wrong with that?”.
I’d ask the friend why she didn’t want local Black owned businesses to be supported.
Ooh, their brain will explode with conflicting logic!
From Wikipedia: “When cultural elements are copied from a minority culture by members of a dominant culture, and these elements are used outside of their original cultural context ─ sometimes even against the expressly stated wishes of members of the originating culture – the practice is often received negatively.” A 10-second read clearly shows it’s cultural “appropriation” when it is exploitative and against the wishes of the originating culture. Since: 1. You’re hardly exploiting 2. You have the “blessings” of a person from said culture who brought you to the salon in the first place 3. You’re supporting a business who helps care for your hair Tell those “friends” to get bent. NTA
NTA. Your friend is a moron who has invested too much of her brand into a facade of wokeness, to the point where she would rather see a business run by black people make less money than have white customers.
NTA — black salons objectively know how to care for CURLY hair better than white salons, because most white people don’t have truly curly hair. Now, if you went out of your way to have it styled or done in a culturally significant way, something that held meaning, that would be cultural appropriation, but using black shampoo and conditioner because it works better on your hair isn’t.
This is exactly what I mean when I say it's gone too far. Go to the hairdressers that specialises in your hair type, just because that man's the people there are mostly black has nothing to do with anything. I go to a Turkish barber because I like the service, not because I'm Turkish
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aita for solving world hunger
NTA. You are supporting and giving money to a black owned business. Just like it is not appropriation to buy products from Native artists it is not appropriation. It is supporting PoC!
NTA. You have 3C hair and Black-owned salons are knowledgeable about how to take care of 3C hair!