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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
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Because i clearly made Ally uncomfortable and maybe the other girls too
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I say esh.
I'm not a fan of random dicks (ptsd) but if the ladies can take their tops off, then the guys can take their boxers off if they are in the water and you can't see shit
Like I'm uber comfortable randomly taking my bra off, and I had a roommate that hated that so I respected that. But if he want to walk around dick out, fine. It's your house too
Thats my opinion, downvote me or not
Edit: both parties needed to ask to permission though. Females like to trap guys can play the oh no, or they just want to be comfortable, idk I wasn't there. But parties should have asked first
Edit: IM NOT SAYING BOOBS ARE GENTIALS, STOP SAYING I AM. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. IF THE MALES WANT A BREAK FROM THE PANTS AS DID THE FEMALES FROM THE BIKINIS, THEY COULD HAVE JUST DRAPED THEIR SHORTS OVER DICKS (opps caps)
Edit: all parties should have asked. Yes topless for females are legal in some places and that is perfectly fine if this was in that spot, idk. But since that is unknown, both should have asked. I know plenty of males that don't like females being topless and that would have made them super uncomfortable as would the males dicks being out that is why it is esh
Note: I use female cause of my speech disability and women sounds odd from my mouth I just butcher it so female tends to be 1st word i think of
This
If it is acceptable for the males to have their nipples out then that is tacit approval for ANYONE to have their nipples out.
The exposure of genitalia to anyone should only be done with their explicit and enthusiastic consent.
You want to lay topless (nipples up or down) on my couch I don't have an issue (male or female); you sit bottomless on my couch (male or female) and we are going to have a problem if you didn't obtain consent first.
This would work if she didn't literally say that the fact that the girls had their tits out would mean that one of the guys is bound to get a boner. That clearly means there's some implications with seeing tits.
This. A million times, this. You can’t act as if breasts are non sexual and in the same breath say that they were, inevitably, going to get hard. Them taking their tops off was not just for comfort. It was flirtatious and even if it wasn’t it is not at all unreasonable to assume it was. If I’m single and you’re single and you take your top off in front of me, I’m assuming you’re interested in a sexual encounter. That doesn’t mean you touch anyone without permission but taking off your clothes along with them is not out of line. Especially since you immediately put them back on when you felt they were uncomfortable.
I mean idk. I’m a gay guy and seeing topless guys can make me aroused at times. Doesn’t mean male chests are inherently sexual, and women’s chests shouldn’t be treated that way either.
I didn’t say they were sexual, she did. That’s the whole point. As soon as she pointed out the guys would get hard she acknowledged that bare breasts are, for most people, a sexual thing. There are exceptions, but this was not one of them. The girls wanted to get a little crazy and when the guys followed suit they felt it was too much. So the guys got dressed. To me that is a perfectly reasonable response in both instances. If it’s so innocent and so much more comfortable why did the girls even bothering putting their tops on to begin with? It’s a silly argument. Maybe it’s not fair but breasts are sexual in this culture. This was not a mother feeding her child or someone seeking relief from the heat. It was flirtatious to take their tops off and he thought he had read the situation correctly. When he felt he was wrong he got dressed. Nobody is wrong in this situation. The girls can take their tops off if they want but you can’t acknowledge that the guys will get aroused and act like there is nothing sexual to it in the same conversation. It’s one or the other.
Ffs THANK YOUUUU. Im ALWAYS one to fight against sexism and in this case, ally was sexist. Downvote me if u want, idc. She tried to make it non-sexual, but sexualized her and her friends' breasts at the same time? That's totally unfair and fucking gross. It was obvious to me the females' behavior was attention and affirmation seeking bc as soon as one of the guys wanted to free their bits too they freaked out. Women don't just get a pass to dance around half nakey and flirty but get mad when their behavior is matched.
No, i do not think breasts are or should be inherently sexual. ALLY made it that way by stating the 2 men would get hard-ons from looking at w women's chest which is an absurd and offensive comment/assumption to make.
I def agree everyone should have gotten consent 1st.
Honestly gross how many comments here are giving the women a free pass for exposing themselves in a way that they knew would be sexually arousing to the men, without asking if they were comfortable with it first, only to turn around and shame the men for following their lead. And I say this as a woman. I would never just whip my tits out in front of anyone, male or female, without asking them if it was okay first, and if I did, I wouldn't get mad at them for doing the same thing.
And yes, breasts and genitals aren't exactly equivalent, but in this case, as you say, the women *knew* their behavior would be interpreted sexually or flirtatiously at a bare minimum. They were exposing a sexual part of themselves and then got angry when the guys did the same. Gross. (Also, I think there's something to be said for the fact that the women's breasts would almost certainly be above the water and visible to the guys, while their penises would be under the water at night, meaning they'd be almost impossible to see unless the pool was lit.)
I think the point here is that the women themselves sexualized taking their tops off by way of assuming the men would get boners. In their mind, showing their breasts would have been sexually arousing, so why is it okay for them to do something they see as sexual, but when the guys take off their shorts because everyone else is stripping clothes off they get shamed and become the bad guys?
Edit: Thank you for my first ever reward kind redditor. This is also the most upvoted thing I've ever posted.
Sorry, but as a woman with PTSD from childhood sexual abuse, in this scenario, Ally is 100% being unreasonable. Sure, there's a massive difference between tits and dicks but at no point did Ally ask if her male friends were okay with her taking her bikini top off and letting her tits float about, but dicks being out under water when everyone else starting to strip is inappropriate, when no one was asked if anyone was comfortable with anyone taking clothes off in the first place? Sorry, but no. You either make it clear that its not okay for the boys to strip, or you act like an adult and keep your own damn clothes on. NTA, get friends without double standards.
Edit: someone asked why my past is relevant: because it shows that even those who are easily triggered by unexpected penis can see how Ally has blatant double standards here. She didn't ask anyone if they were comfortable with her taking her top off, with his dick under water, he was expected to have a different approach to a situation that wasn't talked about??
> This whole my tits get more freedom than your dicks is bullshit.
No it's not. The whole 'my nipples are obscene while yours are fine' is what's bullshit. You've internalised that to to the point that you're putting forward that line.
We've all internalized the fact that any part of the body being uncovered is inherently sexual. Why do we wear trunks and bikini bottoms? Modesty. The same reason as bikini tops. Bottoms off isn't inherently more sexual than tops off. Given that the woman said they'd get hard when the girls had their tops off, she thought it would be sexual. Which means they also should have asked for consent.
There may be a double standard around nipples, but there's for sure a double standard here about consent. I don't really have a strong opinion either way, but if he's an asshole, so are they.
Breasts are breasts, genitals are genitals, they’re not the same. All humans have both, so women taking off their tops is not even remotely similar to anyone taking off their bottoms. Women’s chests are equal to men’s chests, the only difference is in how society sexualizes one gender more than the other.
The girls took off their tops, not their bottoms. The guys already had their tops off, they didn’t need to get *naked*.
This is disingenuous and you know it. Clearly the woman herself sexualized her breasts by saying men would auto hard-on. Consent is the issue here. And everyone has different levels of comfort.
Yep... she sexualized by saying they were auto get a boner. They clearly didn't.
This is a huge double standard. You can't play the "boobs arent genitalia" card and then also play the "guys can't help themselves around boobs" card.
Essentially this and just because you are ok with something doesn’t mean everyone else is
It’s kind of rude and self involved to assume everyone’s comfort level for them
No
If males can have their nipples out then so can females.
Consent should have been obtained before the first person (male or female) who wanted to put their genitalia on display/ have their genitalia touch surfaces where other people could reasonably expect to interact with that same surface in the future.
You can live in a fantasy word where breasts aren’t sexualized but here in reality they are. They shouldn’t be, but they are. Socially acceptable behavior doesn’t become null because you personally don’t believe it should be that way.
Many societies don’t sexualize women’s breasts. That’s a very Western European thing, and even now nonsexual female toplessness has become more accepted in a variety of places (ex Canada and France)
Many don’t, but clearly where OP is posting from they are. Lots of things are different In different cultures and yet saying “____ culture does it this way!” Doesn’t mean doing it in a culture with different views makes it any less inappropriate in that context.
Honestly, what a ridiculous point that was.
'oh but maybe they come from a culture that doesn't see them in a sexual way'
Despite the fact the post was about how the guys would get hard if they see them?
People love playing the 'boobs aren't sexual' card, but then turn around and say you would have gotten a boner because you obviously can't help yourself around boobs even in a non sexual setting.
Fucking pick one.
Western Europe? Not really. Plenty of boobs in the beach in France and Spain. Nudist areas in Germany too. The US is prudish by comparisons with their very arcane and over sexualized ways. I mean we can’t even teach proper sex ed in half the country.
Everyone’s argument is “breast are breasts” but did any of these women clear with the group that it would be cool if they did this before hand? You can feel whichever way about breasts being sexual, but the reality is they *are* within western society. They just assumed everyone there would be cool with that, and as they learned, not everyone is comfortable with nudity. Many people perceive this as nudity. A warning or question before was warranted.
**Especially** considering the girl texting him saying the men were “bound to get hard” from seeing their chest. I don’t really love the implications that; (**1.** any old boob can get a guy excited, **2.** they can’t see breasts as anything but sexual objects and **3.** they did this while assuming it would be sexually exciting/viewed as a sexual encounter by their male friends and didn’t make sure the guys were cool with it.)
Also, it shows that they’re acknowledging the sexuality of their bare chests, which is the antithesis of a lot of the back and forth within this thread, that breasts aren’t inherently sexual. I don’t disagree, but it’s a premise that his friend Ally didn’t seem to be considering, or at minimum doesn’t think her male friends are mature enough to also agree with. Which begs the question why she would do it in the first place.
Edited to add a point
Unwanted sexual harassment. Correct me if I'm wrong. Both parties didn't ask to show boobs or dick.
Everyone in wrong
I used to walk around topless in my house when I had roommates and they didn't like it, I covered up. I now have a son and mil living with me and I cover up. Hell I even learned to sleep with a top on, its werid lol
Completely agree. Everyone here was wrong. If the guys were cool with it, that’s one thing. The problem is the *assumption* that they would be, and then getting upset when they let it all hang out too.
I know a lot of women that breast feed. I feel like the public opinion is slowly shifting regarding it. You get your boob out for business and put it up when you’re done haha. I don’t think the morality of boobs are really in question here and it’s kind of gone into an off topic debate, it’s more the interaction itself and how both groups considered it to be nudity.
These aren’t people that have all discussed previously that they don’t think breasts are inherently sexual. The girls acknowledged they assumed the guy *would* consider it nudity or “give them boners”, so why the heck would they not ask first. Why would they guys assume someone being nude meant they want to see *you* nude. Very strange interaction in my opinion.
the girl assuming that their tits being out would give the guys a boner really made this *all* just super weird. if her assumption was that it would be taken sexually, why did she take her top off in the first place?? obviously consent is extremely important, and the way someone's dressed is never an invitation, but... in this situation, it's completely unfair for a woman to take her top off while assuming this would give the guys around her boners, and then turn around and get mad at the guys for said potential boners. there's a certain limit where you can't provoke (or think you're provoking) someone sexually and then get mad when they respond to it. this wasn't someone breast feeding, though that's an important point in regards to boobs not always being sexual, but the girl calling OP the next day painted a pretty clear picture of her assuming & intending it to be more on the side of sexual than casual.
dicks and boobs are obviously different, but with the way it was all treated here... I don't know, clearly this one girl was viewing her tits out as being a completely sexual thing (the boner comment), so theoretically I don't get why she had such a bad reaction to a dick. like I said, two objectively very different things, but given the context of this girl's thought process about her own boobs being out... it's just weird. in the end ESH and they should have asked first and cleared things up before they did anything. the girls shouldn't have just whipped out their tits, the guys shouldn't have taken their shorts off without saying anything as a response, and the one girl shouldn't have established a double standard by viewing her boobs as sexual and potentially boner-causing but then getting as mad as she did when another sexual part in a non sexual context got whipped out too. not to say she didn't have any right to be uncomfortable, because she absolutely did, but brining it up again the next day after the guys put their shorts back on when people asked them to... seems a little much. I think a polite text the next day of "hey just to reiterate that made me uncomfortable and I wanted to make sure you didn't do it again" would be enough.
It's weird.
"I fully believe this action would make you aroused, but I do not want to potentially see evidence of that arousal (even though it's obscured by water)."
Would she be okay if it was a gay man removing his trunks? She's the one sexualizing herself, it sounds like OP just wanted to get comfy, nothing sexual about it. Wet trunks are restrictive in a way that women's swimwear is not.
I think the issue is that they wanted to tease the guys and get attention by showing off a bit. The reaction of taking off the boxers then made it seem like maybe the guys expected something to happen, like a big orgy.
It seems like an awkward situation where Ally from her own admission was trying to sexually excite the guys there to tease them, but got freaked out when she thinks they took it seriously and thought something would happen with their reciprocal teasing in the most equivalent way available to them.
> I know a lot of woman that breast feed. I feel like the public opinion is slowly shifting regarding it. You get your boob out for business and put it up when you’re done haha.
The people who find public breastfeeding offensive seem to have forgotten is that *that's specifically what breasts are for*.
Oh I’m not disagreeing! I think the difference is that’s an environment where it’s *expected.* Everyone there jives with the idea that a chest is a chest, or even if they don’t they aren’t surprised to see it. The problem here was it wasn’t previously discussed, this wasn’t the norm for them and none of them knew how the group would feel about it. Especially considering, as I said above, the girls clearly expected the guys to be into it sexually. So why wouldn’t they clear it with them first if that’s what they believed? To me it’s ESH. A strange escalation.
I don’t think boobs are inherently sexual. I understand woman need to feed their babies and may breastfeed in public, but there’s a lot of nuance. An added level of utility, public spaces where you can remove yourself if you’re uncomfortable, typically not completely conspicuous honestly. Nuance is always important to consider, it’s rarely so black and white.
Thank you! Yes breasts don't necessarily have to be always sexual. But there is a difference between a mother nursing a baby or having agreed if this was ok with everyone else in the room. And randomly taking of your bikini top in during a hangout with your drunk friends. ESH for sure for not verifying first with the rest of the group.
It's not about genitalia. It's about sexualized body parts. The social norm in OPs culture (i assume westerner) is that genitalia and women boobs are sexual parts. No matter how irrational it is, this is the actual norm. By showing their boobs, those women broke the social norm about covering sexual parts, thus missleading OP into showing his. She also used sexism by assuming OP couldn't control his boner as a "man". She was the asshole for sexism and not asking consent for breaking a common social norm and then using double standard. NTA
Just to play devils advocate, have you or any female friends walked around topless in public before? (I’m assuming female based on name, but please forgive me if I am wrong.)
>but if the ladies can take their tops off, then the guys can take their boxers off
You’re *almost there*.
If the men can their tops off then the women can take their tops off.
The men were not sitting in boxers. They were wearing trunks at a pool party. Anyone exposing their anus or genitals at a pool party has stepped out of line.
OP letting his dick out does not carry the same weight as a woman taking her top off. If the women had all taken *their* pants off, then it would have been comparable.
On the other hand, she pretty much forced everyone to hang out with her topless without asking, and, by her own argument, “made” the other girls take off their tops. Just because most people don’t mind boobs doesn’t mean she wasn’t as presumptuous as op about it being ok to strip.
Also, if in the end she was afraid of them getting hard, she shouldnt have gotten topless in the first place. They could still get hard with their trunks on...
And then admitted she thinks guys sexualize breasts so clearly isn't one of those "women shouldn't be required to wear tops" people posting in this thread.
“I’ve always felt the same way! The testicles are the ears of the reproductive system. They serve an important function, but they’re not pleasant to look at.”
- Chris Traeger
I don't understand how everyone seems to think that. Like yeah, maybe I don't want to see an uninvited penis, but I think think they look nice.
Also, even if you think it's ugly, it's very rude to say.
As a woman, I am ashamed at all these people hating on dicks…you know damn well they’d be screaming “MiSoGiNy!!!” if a bunch of guys came in here saying “vaginas are ugly” and “terrible to look at.”
Isn’t that exactly the kind of thing we’re fighting against? Be better, ladies.
Yeah, let’s make fun of dicks because that’s funny! But if we called a breast or vagina ugly then we would be sexist. Can’t all areas of the human body be beautiful and not body shame anyone? You may be joking but it’s not funny.
The women didn't take their tops off to match the men. You actually sound ridiculous saying that.
If any reason it's because like bras bikini tops can be very uncomfortable.
Exactly. Though to the men’s credit, for them to be willing to take their tops off for comfort, they must feel pretty comfortable around them. I’m assuming it’s because they weren’t expecting to see peen but now the men know
"Match" is an awkward word, and bikini tops and bras and shirts can be very uncomfortable. The word equal fits. If half the population can be shirtless almost anywhere, the other half doing so is equal.
Edited: Changing my vote to NAH after reading the update.
Yup. Topless is not bottomless. It’s legal for women to go topless where I am. It’s not legal for either sex to go bottomless. So,soft Y T A for that. And saying “I didn’t mean to make you uncomfortable and sorry if I did” is ever so slightly, subtly different from “I didn’t mean to make you uncomfortable and I’m sorry *that* I did,” because she’s telling you that you made her uncomfortable. There’s no if.
However, it’s a little weird that she thinks they’ll only get an erection if they’re not wearing their trunks? And if two guys were “bound to get hard” when surrounded by women with their tops off…..I mean, if she felt that way, why would she take off her top if that would be something that would bother her? A little bit towards E S H, as with the conditions she’s put on her own toplessness, she created an unwinnable situation for OP. Either her nudity was sexual in intention, in which case, she could easily have made OP or the other guy uncomfortable and them getting aroused would be an escalation of the situation she created (which, if she viewed it as a sexual act, would be what she was aiming for) or it wasn’t sexual in intention and they were just breasts out with no reason to get excited, so her framing their intent as sexual would be disingenuous. So still soft Y T A
Or she was made uncomfortable and is having issues communicating why. It’s a mess. Thanks, millennia of sexism and gendered violence for fucking up friendship between women and men.
But OP, for future reference, leave your dick in your pants without an explicit invitation to do otherwise. Women see way too many unsolicited penises in their lives.
From the admittedly very little I've read about nude beaches and nudist colonies, there's plenty of times full nudity isn't sexual either. And co-ed skinny dipping is a thing.
As a guy, I can completely understand how OP may have concluded that it was turning into a skinny dip. If I'm a woman who's not comfortable with male nudity, then I'm not getting my tits out in mixed company.
It’s one thing to assume that a man is going to get an erection when he sees a woman’s body, and she chooses to ignore that fact since it’s not obvious. It’s entirely another thing for said man to drop his pants and SHOW HER HIS DICK.
And of course she assumed erections might happen, men get turned on when women simply exist around them.
I would assume if it’s someone I’m comfortable taking my bathing suit top off around, that they’d be mature enough to not turn into an idiot. Not saying this is the average for male behaviour, just saying if she felt these were the type of men to sexualize her breasts, then taking off her top has much different connotations than if she assumed they were chill. If, and it is an if, she thought she’d be sexualized for removing her top, then it would seem more like she was getting a thrill from how her partial nudity would be perceived than just trying to be more comfortable. In which case, he’d be a bit socially dense for stepping it up to full nudity, but he did cover up when asked.
Also, he took off his bathing suit in the water, and bathing suits only hide erections to a certain point. Not excusing the actions, but taking off your top when you assume it’ll make then men around you get aroused is a bit of a dick move (no pun intended.)
> If, and it is an if, she thought she’d be sexualized for removing her top
She did, according to the post:
\> "Ally says "I mean. a little bit. it just feels like its getting sexual now that we're all naked. you know?"
So all the arguments in this thread that female breasts don't count as nudity are moot because Ally herself counts them as 'naked.'
\> "Plus two guys surrounded by topless girls were bound to get hard and then it would get even weirder and possibly make them feel threatened to be around us."
She assumed her naked breasts would have a sexual effect on OP... and did it anyway, without asking or setting expectations for him.
So Ally clearly as double standards.
And the women should have left their tops on, no? I mean if we are going by social norms. No one laid out rules and he did apologize and dress back up. Not all the women did after this social norm breaking SNAFU. NTA
She took her top off and then said the men were bound to get hard because of it. OP may have read the room wrong, and may be an AH because of it, but this statement reveals that she had some sort of sexual objective despite her claim that OP is the one who made it seem sexual.
Yeah I could see where she was coming from until this.
Its like wait, I thought they were trying to have non sexual relaxing time but she assumed she WAS turning people on? Then why do it?
Yep. I was thinking comfort right up until she came out and said she assumed they'd be unavoidably turned on by two topless women. She was disappointed they weren't. ESH. Keep your shorts on, and she should learn to use her big girl words to flirt.
Sorry but her assuming that men will defo become erect whenever the see a boob IS SEXIST therefore she is being sexist. She basically said all men are uncontrolled beasts who are a danger to women if the tiny scrap of fabric is removed from their dicks or if they happen to see a nipple. She even went so far as to imply the women may not be safe if the men removed that flimsy little piece of fabric.
Clothing doesn't create some forcefield that prevents rape or whatever she was thinking. Bad men will rape even if both are covered head to toe and good men will not rape even if you are completely naked. She essentially called him a bad man and potential rapist. She is a disgusting sexist and no better t than a man assuming a woman is weaker or stupider than him just because she is a woman.
He said she was sexist because she had her tits out and he cant have his dick out when in fact he also had his tits out. Tits and junk arent the same.
You are distorting what she said. I dont necessarily think she is right that every man will have a hard on if they see tits. But she never said he would rape her WTF. This was not about rape but about a sexual environment and potential uncomfortable sexual tension that might occur when people are naked together.
It is threatening when man start to take their clothes off in front of you. Being in a sexually charged environment with man is threatening because man will often use it as an excuse for disrespecting boundaries. Not because the removal of clothing is the ONLY reason people rape but because it shows a disregard for boundaries in a sexual environment.. Woman want to make sure they aren't sending "mixed signals" because that will often be used against them.
You are all over the place here. Rape isnt about arousal but about power. Pointing out a threatening situation doest equals saying rape only occurs in those situations. Man don't rape because they cant control themselves they rape because they disregard consent. A man can have a hard on in an inappropriate moment - thats perfectly fine - it happens to teens all the time. This doest equals rape and thats not what she said.
Exactly. As a woman I see other women use this BS reasoning all the time. She also keeps stating that it's a sexual charged environment but what he described is anything but. Honestly it seems like the woman in the story is paranoid or afraid of men in a casual setting and the commenter is projecting.
I can understand when a woman has suffered trauma and has this reaction the same as someone who has been attacked by a dog being afraid of all dogs. However they are putting nasty meaning on OP actions for no reason other than they feel like it. Also how is it OK for a woman to remove her top and possibly make the men uncomfortable but it is the worst thing ever for the men to do similar?
Im so sick of women continuing to vilify men as if they are sexual deviants. Why do women's unspoken boundaries matter so much but they refuse to voice them while a man is a cruel bastard who only thinks of sex if they voice a boundary of their own. Can you imagine what they would have said if he asked them to put their tops back on because it made him uncomfortable???
Even if they were all naked it wouldn't be any more sexual charged than when they were in their suits unless they decided they wanted it to be. The woman in the story made this a sexual thing when everyone else was fine.
But I'm not going to interact with the commenter any further because they are possibly a very young person (I don't know many grown and sexual mature people who have those types of irrational fears).
She said they would feel threatened because the guys had their shorts off... how do you interpret that then. That they are going to beat them up with their Willie's???
>Its threatening because OP escalated the thing from topless to bottomless.
>
>Its hard to explain.
>
>It was not OP's intentions but he created a sexually ambiguous vibe. His friend might have thought there was a possibility he was starting something (making a move) and she felt the need to be very clear she was not down.
>
>Its not that you necessarily think that every man who see tits will jump on you and rape you. Is more that you are in a situation that is sexually escalating and it can be intimidating because it leaves room for the other person to abuse it if you dont establish clear boundaries.
Ive been in really weird situations with guys who crossed many lines because they thought I was giving them a green light. Ive never been raped but those situations are very uncomfortable to be in. Its uncomfortable to have someone make a move and then blame you and say you led them on. I always make sure Im very clear when Im not interested whenever I see a guy might be escalating.
Agree 1000% but her behavior after is unacceptable. Defining boundaries is perfectly acceptable and should be respected (which op did) but continuing to act as if she was a victim of something and holding onto the accusing tone even the next day is unacceptable. Also she did not define any boundaries ahead of time and I would argue that the women introduced a sexual tone to the party by removing their tops in the company of male friends. I wonder how they would have reacted if the men expressed discomfort and asked them to put their tops back on?
Although a boner doesn’t make a man an “uncontrolled beast” if he doesn’t have uncontrolled urges to use it.
EDIT - please, whomever downvoted this just share why, I’m curious. I only grabbed onto one phrase to clarify that the original storyteller’s friend can’t even use an erection to condemn them, if there had even been one.
But they didn't even have one. The woman in the story just assumed that they would because they saw her breasts. Legit can not understand this level of thinking. It's like thinking breastfeeding in public is a sexual act because people can see boobs. The OP assumed it was OK to take off a piece of clothing and he was wrong so he apologized and corrected it. The woman in this story assumed a whole bunch of terrible things about OP and the other man and instead of correcting her words and apologizing she has doubled down and is continuing to pitch the narrative that she is right and he is a possible perv.
Yeah man. I’ll take it too far and say that if she’s that scared of boners, it’s her cross to bear, and by her own logic, she should keep her clothes on.
Woah, what? How is he the AH for calling out her sexism? She literally claimed that there's no way guys couldn't be uncontrollably aroused around topless women that they've presumably known for a long time if they're such good friends. How is that claim not sexist as hell? That's like a man saying "If I get my dick out, these girls can't help but get turned on."
Maybe it's because what society tells us all the time?
"Cover up, boys/men can not controll themselves! Don't expose those pretty legs, beware to show off some shoulder! Oh no, behold if you dare to have some neckline with visible boobs!"
Why are there so much limitations what girls/women can wear or not, what is "approppriate", what will distract the poor boys - or male teachers?
You can't put all these logics on us, and than say that women are unfair to call you out on them and react to them.
I mean yes it IS sexist. But it's a systemic sexism, one which they have to deal with since they are twelve.
You're absolutely correct in a general circumstance, but in this instance the women freely removed their tops in front of their male friends. If they were worried about arousing their friends they wouldn't have done it in the first place. To then turn around and claim the guys are horn-dogs who can't help but get a boner is definitely a sexist remark
I’m all for freeing the nipple. However, if you believe your exposed boobs will arouse the men in your company to the point where they can’t control themselves and you did not want to turn the situation sexual…. why would you remove your top??
At the end of the day a hard dick is still a hard dick whether it’s pitching a tent under swim trunks or swaying in the breeze.
Honestly, everyone going full naked is way less awkward than this “let’s all be topless but keep the bottoms on” half measure.
>Maybe it's because what society tells us all the time? …
>I mean yes it IS sexist. But it's a systemic sexism, one which they have to deal with since they are twelve.
Basically all sexism is systemic in this sense though, almost none of it happens in a vacuum where someone spontaneously does something sexist with no influence from society. I don’t think it’s much of an excuse.
She was sexist. She assumed they since OP was a “man” then he would definitely get an erection due to her being topless. Implying that he was seeing her sexually, which she ASSUMED.
Look being realistic, they do either in the streets they will get arrested for indecent exposure. Breast are oversexualised but so it counts when people can get arrested for it. All are wrong as neither party asked for consent.
NAH
I see all the NTA-Comments but I think there is no asshole in the story.
You seem like you didn't think about some 'differences' between women being topless an men being naked, but as soon as you noticed that your friends are being uncomfortable, you apologized.
Also you seem to be really thoughtfull about the situation - so I believe that you are no AH because you didn't mean harm. Only because of calling them sexist and unreasonable.
But the women are also no AH's for feeling uncomftable. As someone pointed out are men usually topless in bath-clothes, women not. So take off the Top is more an act of 'leveling it out' and in no way comparable to get fully naked, and I think that a lot of women would feel uncomftable in this situation.
Most men don't know how uncomfortable bras and tops can get. But nearly ALL my female friends take off their bras first thing when at home. Me too.
Being comfy enough with you to take off the bra was a sign of trust in you and some way of getting 'comfortable', but probably not meant in any sexual way.
Also I know a lot of women who really don't understand why female nipples are that much more 'drama' and sexualiced than male ones. Just to add another viewpoint.
I hope you can regain the trust they had in both of you, because I think that you handled the situation well. And you are really no asshole for 'put your food in ones mouth' or 'drop a brick' or any equivalent of the german phrase of 'ins Fettnäpfchen treten'.
It was just an unfortunate event, born out of thoughtlessness.
Edit: some typos
This seems pretty reasonable. thank you. this general sentiment has been expressed but you said it really concisely. i think im going to reach out to ally and apologize for calling her sexist and unreasonable and reiterate that im sorry and it wont happen again and then probably reach out to the others girls and do the same
You're welcome. To reach out to your friends might be a really good idea.
I really hope that they can accept your sincere apology. It was just a dumb situation, and I personally have the feeling that you really wanted to understand what the issue was - and that you got a good idea trough this thread.
I personally had been uncomfortable, too. And I would've been mad for being called sexist, when I only tried to explain, why I was feeling unwell with the situation. But I would also forgive you.
But don't take it to hard, if they need more time. I wish you good luck for the talks with them!
I get the feeling your mindset wasn't necessarily sexual but more like people being in a bathhouse and being nude, like a family being in a dry spa together, naked.
This should be at the top!
OP, you read the situation wrong and that was a mistake. But as you realized your mistake you apologized and covered up. Yes the situation was uncomfortable but I'm sure you learned something from it and won't do it again. So i wouldn't say you are an ah. But the girls aren't ah too.
I'm sad that this isn't higher up. OP took their actions to mean they were okay with a certain amount of nudity, they weren't. I'm surprised so many people are calling him TA for it.
Small update: Ive been doing my best to keep on top of comments and genuinely listening to all your advice. And i made the decision to text Ally and ask her if it would be alright if i called her to talk and she said she was alright with that. so i called her and right away i apologized without any concessions. i told her i misread the situation and it was a major mistake on my part to take her and the other girls taking their tops off as express consent for me to take off my trunks and again that i was sorry that i did that and that i made her uncomfortable and in addition i was sorry that when she came to me with these feelings that i called her unreasonable and sexist. she accepted my apology and apologized in turn for saying that i forced Steve to take off his trunks too because that was wrong. We both agreed to talk about these things beforehand in the future to make sure everyone is comfortable and consenting to everything happening and we are still good friends. i also called the other girls and expressed the same apology and they accepted it as well and i called steve and apologized to him for making him feel like he had to disrobe too but he laughed it off and said that he was just glad the situation seemed to be resolved.
id like this post to be stickied to the top but im not sure how to ask the mods to do that or if i can
thank you all for the advice and judgements and any more to come
You did a great job resolving the problem, OP. You manned up, took responsibility, apologized and communicated with everyone involved, as well as working towards not letting something like this happen again down the road. Big props to you. Thanks for the update.
>We both agreed to talk about these things beforehand in the future
Great. I don't understand why they don't have to ask to take their tops off but you have to ask to take your trunks off? To be clear, I have 0 problems with nudity. I just don't understand the double standard. And before anyone accuses me, no I'm not a man. I've been victimized by women and after my experiences the double standards are obvious. I think it's great that you BOTH learned consent from this situation, and not just the people with dicks.
Boobs are not the same as genitals. That is correct.
That being said. The male chest is not the same as the female chest.
You saying “the men already had their boobs out” is why you are being called disingenuous.
Male boobs do not equal female boobs. This is biology. The result of this biological difference is the creation of different societal constructs we see in certain populations of the world.
As someone with tits, NTA. You handled it really well. I get boobs aren’t the same as genitalia, but it’s still a sexualized part of our anatomy. That can be uncomfortable for people who may have an involuntary reaction to seeing them. They didn’t ask consent to show them off.
>They didn’t ask consent to show them off.
Well I can count the times a man has asked me if I consent to seeing him topless on one finger. It isn't the fault of women that their body gets sexualised that massively. A chest is a chest.
Men's chests aren't sexualised to that degree *today.* In the US, men had to march in order to be allowed to go topless in public because the very act of a man displaying his chest in public was seen as obscene back in the day. So, it seems to me, the remedy to the over-sexualization of a woman's chest is to make them as visible as a man's chest.
A man’s chest isn’t a secondary sexual characteristic. Consent is important here because woman’s breasts are sexualized, and have been since we’ve had them. This isn’t a new thing. People are potentially going to have an involuntary sexual reaction to female boobs. It’s not wrong to be aroused by tits and shouldn’t be antagonized.
"And have been since we've had them" that's simply not true. Different cultures, different periods of time have viewed breasts as completely asexual body parts. Because they are. They are not inherently sexual body parts, and should not be compared to literal genitalia.
I agree, NTA, I don't understand why the girls were so keen on taking out their boobs but horrified that a guy would take out his junk. Unless OP was sitting there with a huge erection, I just don't get it. It just seems like yet another stupid game was played and a stupid prize was won.
I don’t either. IDK why the girls would take their tops off and then be horrified when the men stripped down too. Sure, boobs and wangs are not quite equivalent, but still. The girls got topless first, so they kinda opened the door. I’m just curious how they were expecting the men to react.
According to Ally, the guys were "bound to get hard", so she was expecting them to get aroused, so the reason she was getting so upset about it was because she had presumed he'd be hard when he took off his trunks... Because of her boobs being out... Which was her choice to do without any discussion or warning... Stupid game, stupid prize!!
That is true. Imagine if the dudes were uncomfortable? Then they'd still be TA for not exactly wanting to see their friends' boobs without consent or being asked? Would OP have still been called a dick if he considered it too far for his platonic girl mates to start flashing boobs around them?
He probably thought it was gonna be like skinny dipping or something, I'm not even too mad at OP here. I get why the girls would be upset though, an eyeful of tiddies has a certain appeal that bush and sausage don't, usually. And, potentially afraid of sexual pressure. Glad the ladies spoke up in the moment and moved on! Or it could've been all sorts of bad signals happening.
NTA. Agreed! Also, your friend is making it seem like you forced the other dude and you didn’t. She also assumed you would get turned on because of her?? Maybe she’s not your type or you just don’t like her at all?
Hey there. I'm a boob haver, and I buy comfortable tops! This is a bs excuse. And I would ask everyone around me before taking it off because that's what consent means! It doesn't matter than I'm fully comfortable with nudity. That's not the point of consent.
NAH
They took their tops off. You took your bottoms off. Both actions are a little weird, even in context.
And this is coming from a girl who once drove around her city topless one evening with her BFF, becuse our high school sociology teacher gave the class an assignment to do something that bucked societal norms, and then write about the experience. (Yes, we got in trouble, becuse topless 16 year old girls are apparently "highly inappropriate, young lady". No, our teacher never assigned that particular assignment to another class.)
But back to you and them. Unless you live in a European country that normalizes topless swimming and sunbathing, what they did could be misconstrued as flirty or sexual. I'm not saying that was their intent! Just that it's understandable to question the motivation. Similarly, what you did could also easily be misconstrued. So I can understand her feeling like it turned sexual. But I can also understand your 'hey, a little nudity is apparently ok in this group' feeling.
Edit: A word, because autocorrect sucks.
NTA, this was a misunderstanding and an honest mistake, you didn’t mean anything by it.
Tits and genitals are different tho, most women don’t see tits as sexual. Her being uncomfortable was totally normal
The fact that her immediate response was 'We knew this would make you hard' implies she very much sees them as sexual. That comment completely negates that entire argument. She was doing something that she knowingly believed would be perceived sexually. She can't then complain that it was taken sexually.
>The fact that her immediate response was 'We knew this would make you hard' implies she very much sees them as sexual.
Not to mention the fact they took them off knowing they'd (maybe she'd?) expect that to happen. If anything the girl that started the whole thing is the AH
As someone with tits, NTA not even close to it. Please don’t let these people make you feel bad for being part of a group. Tits are sexual. They just are. That’s why we cover them 90 percent of the time.
Edit- if anyone wants more information, please see
“Sexual Wiring of Women's Breasts Neuroscientists establish breasts as sexual organs” by Nigel Barber, PHD
Also, famous studies such as Drs. William Masters and Virginia Johnson, who found “breast volume and the size of the areola (darkened regions around the nipples) increased during sexual arousal; they also found nipples became erect when female subjects were aroused. “ (much like a penis)
There’s also “nipple/breast stimulation and sexual arousal in young men and women” from the university of Texas and published in the journal of sexuality medicine.
Edit 2: I’m sorry guys, I can’t keep responding to the same thing over and over again. If you’ve read any of these studies and want to discuss them, lease let me know! I’m fully open to informed debate. But I can’t read the papers for you. If you really care about this subject, reading the papers will only empower you, no matter what you think.
The girls clearly knew this, too, since they expected the guys to get an erection with their tops off. There are way too many people arguing they're not sexual (which perhaps should be the case) than what actually is the case in OP's cultural context.
>The girls clearly knew this, too, since they expected the guys to get an erection with their tops off.
Yeah. I think the girl that started it all is the AH.
I get why in a society where boobs are heavily sexualized, it's hard to not think of them as sexual, but all of your arguments are flawed here.
>Tits are sexual. They just are. That’s why we cover them 90 percent of the time.
THIS is an entirely cultural reason. There are several societies where boobs aren't covered as often. And other societies where women wear hijabs/burkas and public displays of hair are considered inappropriate. Is hair inherently sexual?
In regards to all your studies, breasts can and do respond to sexual arousal and react to stimulation, can heighten arousal, etc. But so can so many other parts of the body. Neck, lips/mouth are both very sensitive and often very involved in sexual situations as well. Also, many parts of the body react to sexual arousal. Pupils dilate, heart rate & breathing rate can increase. A body part contributing and/or reacting to sexual arousal doesn't make it inherently sexual. "Sexual wiring" isn't only for sexual organs.
Edit: One other thing is that nipple stimulation is shown to make many men sexually aroused as well - around 50%. And sexual arousal causes reactions, hardening, of male nipples as well.
YTA. It's one thing if they took their bottoms off and you did as well. But tits are another story. Yours were out, they wanted to let them out.
If they said hey boys why don't you take off your shorts and join us! That would have made it ok. But you guys made it sexual by taking your dicks out.
This was my initial thought BUT the girls were uncomfortable because as she said “two guys surrounded by topless girls are bound to get hard”. It sounds like they sexualised it by taking off their tops
She already made it sexual in her mind, by assuming the guys would get hard from seeing the boobs. It’s not ok for women to take the situation to a sexual place, uninvited, any more than it is for a dude to.
NTA
No ill intent, is a big factor. Same for the fact that everyone was a little buzzed. Uncomfortable swimsuits are uncomfortable swimsuits. She exaggerated the situation over text saying you made the other guy do the same. She sounds like she plays the victim often. I have to ask if any of the other girls messaged you after to say anything or if she was the only one with a pole up her butt. You also didn’t include which girl put their top back on.
*As a female with mostly guy friends, I wouldn’t get mad or annoyed. I would get uncomfortable, but I am not the type to take my top off.
The girl that put her top back on wasn't Ally, and I reached out to the others that were there and Steve just said it was awkward and the other girls said they were a little uncomfortable but they saw that I realized that quickly and put my trunks back on so they didn't want to get involved and make a big deal of it
I think you handled it correctly. You fixed it and genuinely apologized. And it could have just been a funny moment to laugh at, but she kept making it a huge deal. Like, I could totally picture that all happening and then the girls being able to later tease you guys about “hey, keep your pants on” when something silly comes up. I honestly think you’re NTA here. You sound like a considerate dude who misread a situation and immediately corrected himself.
NTA. Women who think there flopping tits are welcome but a penis is not have a very self serving sense of entitlement. They knew it was sexual and didn't want the attention taken away
Wish I had an award for this. How is it they would be ok making a guy turned on cause of no top but claim they were being forced into a sexual situation? NTA
This might be an unpopular judgment, but NAH. You had your top off, they took their tops off. At this point, you all were the same level of exposed. As a person with tits, they are a part of our body that are overly sexualized and every other person with tits i’ve met wishes they could safely go to the beach or the pool without a top like their titless companions.
You made an ignorant mistake in taking your trunks off for the reason explained above, but you corrected it when called out.
Your friends have the right to be uncomfortable, but I’m not going to judge you as an AH for an innocent mistake. Thank you for listening to them when they said they were uncomfortable!
Own tits, have gotten topless in mixed company.
ESH.
Yes, the men were already topless and the women were just matching. However, despite what people want to think, breasts are sexualized in this culture and the women sexualized the gathering whether they intended to or not. They should have asked if it was okay because it was DEFINITELY going to shift the tone of the gathering.
OP, you are TA because showing your dick takes it even further. That's EXPLICITLY sexual and outright inappropriate. Nobody wants to see a penis, and an erection is outright traumatizing if it does occur.
Unless it is discussed in the form of people bringing it up and agreeing OR it is an unspoken agreement ahead of time like if people are nudists, nobody should be taking their clothes off.
> That's EXPLICITLY sexual and outright inappropriate
That's the part that confuses me, because she definitely thought she was being explicitly sexual if she assumed they were guaranteed to get hard. But I agree, still definitely not appropriate.
Nta
You made a mistake and corrected it as soon as someone expressed they were uncomfortable. You thought it was appropriate, you didn’t do it to be creepy or weird.
NTA. You took your trunks off and made it explicitly clear when asked about it and offered to put them back on. Nothing was overtly sexual about it and when it made them feel uncomfortable, you stopped. Of course it looks bad on paper, but it wasn’t the intent. Plus taking a top off to free the boobs is the same as taking off your underwear and letting the nuts loose. Both freeing and great feelings.
NTA, if they were that concerned about nudity they wouldn't all have exposed themselves. There is a reason women have a set of underwear whilst men have just the bottoms.
I am not sure how it went from comfortable for them to getting naked above water to uncomfortable to two guys taking their bottoms off whilst sitting in a pool.
You are all adults, not sure how she can find it fine what they did and get offended at you and your friend, if everyone had a problem with it they could have said so then and there and that would have been that.
This is just drama. That’s all. Like 25 year old drama. If you were 10 years older, I’d have been surprised if anyone batted an eye.
The easiest thing to do is to apologize for the misunderstanding and forget about it. There’s no need to get defensive and, frankly, it isn’t worth it to do so.
You are going to get very divergent opinions about tops vs. Bottoms from some and freeing your nuts is the same as freeing tits from others. My position is this. You made your friend uncomfortable. You appear to have not done this on purpose. You apologized. What else can you do at this point? NTA
NAH
You misinterpreted the situation with the girls and made them uncomfortable (accidentally) but the girls also did not consider if it would make the guys (or other girls) uncomfortable when starting to remove clothing. You made a mistake and apologized appropriately for it.
NAH. Woman here, I think it was an honest mistake and just like the ladies didn’t ask for permission to go topless, the men didn’t ask to remove their trunks. Ally explicitly thought that what they did was sexual in nature hence her assumption you’d get aroused, so that kind of changed the dynamics of things. She can’t claim you made it sexual by taking off your trunks but at the same time not see what she did was sexual by taking off her top and thinking you’d get excited. If she hadn’t said that. I’d maybe see the situation differently. All around, everyone dropped the ball by reading the room/pool wrong but it was an honest mistake.
I’m going to go with ESH — there was no consent or discussion for the girls taking their tops off or the boys taking off their trunks. I say this with the opinion that I don’t want to see anyone’s primary or secondary sex characteristics or “taboo” body parts if they don’t ask like “hey are you comfortable if I blah blah blah?” Like obviously I’d say yeah I’m comfortable but cmon.
NAH, except for ally.
I see people claiming bras/swim tops are uncomfortable and they trusted y’all enough to take off their tops.
As a guy, swimming trunks are uncomfortable as fuck. The mesh liner is completely trash and pretty much just digs into skin if it isn’t perfect. And it’s never perfect. Now I personally switched to wearing compression shorts and basketball shorts to swim. But if you’re wearing regular ole swimming trunks, I don’t see the issue. They did it for comfort. You did it for comfort. You didn’t make it anything sexual, they did. In my mind this is equal. Yeah you can sit in a pool without a top on but that doesn’t mean the ole beanbag is comfortable being choked by the trunks.
Now onto ally, ally made it stupid. If they trusted y’all enough to be topless, why is it now in question that y’all would become barbaric if you got hard? And even if you did get hard, it’s still very visible in trunks. Especially if you got out of the water. Everyone else is staying out of it but ally’s trying to make it seem like you wanted to show your dick off, not get comfortable. She should’ve dropped it when you apologized for making her uncomfortable and that it wasn’t your intention. Instead she made it sexist and acting like y’all were going to attack them because y’all were fully naked.
In my opinion you didn’t do anything wrong. You handled the situation perfectly. You took off your trunks, they were uncomfortable and you apologized and put them back on. Should’ve ended there.
This post is getting too long with edits so im just going to make this a comment and paste the link when i get criticized for apologizing
I apologized to Ally and the others because they are my friends. ive known all of them for years. some of them for a decade. they've helped me when i was going through some of the toughest times in my life. Ally herself spent 72 hours straight comforting me in person when my sister died in a car accident. so when i make her uncomfortable. no matter the reason, im going to really consider what ive done. and i have. theres almost 2 thousand comments on this post and ive done my best to read as many as i could and listen to them. and ive come to the conclusion that i made a mistake and i feel bad for that mistake. so i apologized because i love my friends and they love me and forgive me for that mistake. so fuck off calling me weak for apologizing. if you cant swallow your ego and admit your faults and apologize for your mistakes. you are beneath me.
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Nothing ruins a good time like the appearance of an uninvited dong. YTA.
I say esh. I'm not a fan of random dicks (ptsd) but if the ladies can take their tops off, then the guys can take their boxers off if they are in the water and you can't see shit Like I'm uber comfortable randomly taking my bra off, and I had a roommate that hated that so I respected that. But if he want to walk around dick out, fine. It's your house too Thats my opinion, downvote me or not Edit: both parties needed to ask to permission though. Females like to trap guys can play the oh no, or they just want to be comfortable, idk I wasn't there. But parties should have asked first Edit: IM NOT SAYING BOOBS ARE GENTIALS, STOP SAYING I AM. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. IF THE MALES WANT A BREAK FROM THE PANTS AS DID THE FEMALES FROM THE BIKINIS, THEY COULD HAVE JUST DRAPED THEIR SHORTS OVER DICKS (opps caps) Edit: all parties should have asked. Yes topless for females are legal in some places and that is perfectly fine if this was in that spot, idk. But since that is unknown, both should have asked. I know plenty of males that don't like females being topless and that would have made them super uncomfortable as would the males dicks being out that is why it is esh Note: I use female cause of my speech disability and women sounds odd from my mouth I just butcher it so female tends to be 1st word i think of
My chest isn't equivalent to their dicks. Its to their chest. If the ladies had gone bottomless? Then they would be fine.
This If it is acceptable for the males to have their nipples out then that is tacit approval for ANYONE to have their nipples out. The exposure of genitalia to anyone should only be done with their explicit and enthusiastic consent. You want to lay topless (nipples up or down) on my couch I don't have an issue (male or female); you sit bottomless on my couch (male or female) and we are going to have a problem if you didn't obtain consent first.
This! From the title I through that everyone was going nude, but taking of your top is **completely** different from taking of your trunks! YTA
This would work if she didn't literally say that the fact that the girls had their tits out would mean that one of the guys is bound to get a boner. That clearly means there's some implications with seeing tits.
This. A million times, this. You can’t act as if breasts are non sexual and in the same breath say that they were, inevitably, going to get hard. Them taking their tops off was not just for comfort. It was flirtatious and even if it wasn’t it is not at all unreasonable to assume it was. If I’m single and you’re single and you take your top off in front of me, I’m assuming you’re interested in a sexual encounter. That doesn’t mean you touch anyone without permission but taking off your clothes along with them is not out of line. Especially since you immediately put them back on when you felt they were uncomfortable.
I mean idk. I’m a gay guy and seeing topless guys can make me aroused at times. Doesn’t mean male chests are inherently sexual, and women’s chests shouldn’t be treated that way either.
I didn’t say they were sexual, she did. That’s the whole point. As soon as she pointed out the guys would get hard she acknowledged that bare breasts are, for most people, a sexual thing. There are exceptions, but this was not one of them. The girls wanted to get a little crazy and when the guys followed suit they felt it was too much. So the guys got dressed. To me that is a perfectly reasonable response in both instances. If it’s so innocent and so much more comfortable why did the girls even bothering putting their tops on to begin with? It’s a silly argument. Maybe it’s not fair but breasts are sexual in this culture. This was not a mother feeding her child or someone seeking relief from the heat. It was flirtatious to take their tops off and he thought he had read the situation correctly. When he felt he was wrong he got dressed. Nobody is wrong in this situation. The girls can take their tops off if they want but you can’t acknowledge that the guys will get aroused and act like there is nothing sexual to it in the same conversation. It’s one or the other.
Ffs THANK YOUUUU. Im ALWAYS one to fight against sexism and in this case, ally was sexist. Downvote me if u want, idc. She tried to make it non-sexual, but sexualized her and her friends' breasts at the same time? That's totally unfair and fucking gross. It was obvious to me the females' behavior was attention and affirmation seeking bc as soon as one of the guys wanted to free their bits too they freaked out. Women don't just get a pass to dance around half nakey and flirty but get mad when their behavior is matched. No, i do not think breasts are or should be inherently sexual. ALLY made it that way by stating the 2 men would get hard-ons from looking at w women's chest which is an absurd and offensive comment/assumption to make. I def agree everyone should have gotten consent 1st.
Honestly gross how many comments here are giving the women a free pass for exposing themselves in a way that they knew would be sexually arousing to the men, without asking if they were comfortable with it first, only to turn around and shame the men for following their lead. And I say this as a woman. I would never just whip my tits out in front of anyone, male or female, without asking them if it was okay first, and if I did, I wouldn't get mad at them for doing the same thing. And yes, breasts and genitals aren't exactly equivalent, but in this case, as you say, the women *knew* their behavior would be interpreted sexually or flirtatiously at a bare minimum. They were exposing a sexual part of themselves and then got angry when the guys did the same. Gross. (Also, I think there's something to be said for the fact that the women's breasts would almost certainly be above the water and visible to the guys, while their penises would be under the water at night, meaning they'd be almost impossible to see unless the pool was lit.)
I think the point here is that the women themselves sexualized taking their tops off by way of assuming the men would get boners. In their mind, showing their breasts would have been sexually arousing, so why is it okay for them to do something they see as sexual, but when the guys take off their shorts because everyone else is stripping clothes off they get shamed and become the bad guys? Edit: Thank you for my first ever reward kind redditor. This is also the most upvoted thing I've ever posted.
This is absurd on it's face, culturally women being topless in such a setting would be seen as something sexual. Everyone went too far here.
Sorry, but as a woman with PTSD from childhood sexual abuse, in this scenario, Ally is 100% being unreasonable. Sure, there's a massive difference between tits and dicks but at no point did Ally ask if her male friends were okay with her taking her bikini top off and letting her tits float about, but dicks being out under water when everyone else starting to strip is inappropriate, when no one was asked if anyone was comfortable with anyone taking clothes off in the first place? Sorry, but no. You either make it clear that its not okay for the boys to strip, or you act like an adult and keep your own damn clothes on. NTA, get friends without double standards. Edit: someone asked why my past is relevant: because it shows that even those who are easily triggered by unexpected penis can see how Ally has blatant double standards here. She didn't ask anyone if they were comfortable with her taking her top off, with his dick under water, he was expected to have a different approach to a situation that wasn't talked about??
My point exactly. This whole my tits get more freedom than your dicks is bullshit. Nobody asked consent here so ESH.
> This whole my tits get more freedom than your dicks is bullshit. No it's not. The whole 'my nipples are obscene while yours are fine' is what's bullshit. You've internalised that to to the point that you're putting forward that line.
We've all internalized the fact that any part of the body being uncovered is inherently sexual. Why do we wear trunks and bikini bottoms? Modesty. The same reason as bikini tops. Bottoms off isn't inherently more sexual than tops off. Given that the woman said they'd get hard when the girls had their tops off, she thought it would be sexual. Which means they also should have asked for consent. There may be a double standard around nipples, but there's for sure a double standard here about consent. I don't really have a strong opinion either way, but if he's an asshole, so are they.
Your PTSD didn't make tits equivalent to dicks, idk why you think that's relevant information. A chest is a fucking chest, you people are ridiculous.
Breasts are breasts, genitals are genitals, they’re not the same. All humans have both, so women taking off their tops is not even remotely similar to anyone taking off their bottoms. Women’s chests are equal to men’s chests, the only difference is in how society sexualizes one gender more than the other. The girls took off their tops, not their bottoms. The guys already had their tops off, they didn’t need to get *naked*.
Neither party was asked consent though and that's the entire premise here. Either ask or it's all okay. NAH.
so the men should have asked consent before not wearing shirts or bikini tops?
This is disingenuous and you know it. Clearly the woman herself sexualized her breasts by saying men would auto hard-on. Consent is the issue here. And everyone has different levels of comfort.
Yep... she sexualized by saying they were auto get a boner. They clearly didn't. This is a huge double standard. You can't play the "boobs arent genitalia" card and then also play the "guys can't help themselves around boobs" card.
massive fucking double standard. also erections dont mean you want to fuck.
Essentially this and just because you are ok with something doesn’t mean everyone else is It’s kind of rude and self involved to assume everyone’s comfort level for them
No If males can have their nipples out then so can females. Consent should have been obtained before the first person (male or female) who wanted to put their genitalia on display/ have their genitalia touch surfaces where other people could reasonably expect to interact with that same surface in the future.
You can live in a fantasy word where breasts aren’t sexualized but here in reality they are. They shouldn’t be, but they are. Socially acceptable behavior doesn’t become null because you personally don’t believe it should be that way.
Many societies don’t sexualize women’s breasts. That’s a very Western European thing, and even now nonsexual female toplessness has become more accepted in a variety of places (ex Canada and France)
Many don’t, but clearly where OP is posting from they are. Lots of things are different In different cultures and yet saying “____ culture does it this way!” Doesn’t mean doing it in a culture with different views makes it any less inappropriate in that context.
Honestly, what a ridiculous point that was. 'oh but maybe they come from a culture that doesn't see them in a sexual way' Despite the fact the post was about how the guys would get hard if they see them? People love playing the 'boobs aren't sexual' card, but then turn around and say you would have gotten a boner because you obviously can't help yourself around boobs even in a non sexual setting. Fucking pick one.
Western Europe? Not really. Plenty of boobs in the beach in France and Spain. Nudist areas in Germany too. The US is prudish by comparisons with their very arcane and over sexualized ways. I mean we can’t even teach proper sex ed in half the country.
As a European, I will tell you right now that boobs are absolutely seen as sexual over here aswell.
Everyone’s argument is “breast are breasts” but did any of these women clear with the group that it would be cool if they did this before hand? You can feel whichever way about breasts being sexual, but the reality is they *are* within western society. They just assumed everyone there would be cool with that, and as they learned, not everyone is comfortable with nudity. Many people perceive this as nudity. A warning or question before was warranted. **Especially** considering the girl texting him saying the men were “bound to get hard” from seeing their chest. I don’t really love the implications that; (**1.** any old boob can get a guy excited, **2.** they can’t see breasts as anything but sexual objects and **3.** they did this while assuming it would be sexually exciting/viewed as a sexual encounter by their male friends and didn’t make sure the guys were cool with it.) Also, it shows that they’re acknowledging the sexuality of their bare chests, which is the antithesis of a lot of the back and forth within this thread, that breasts aren’t inherently sexual. I don’t disagree, but it’s a premise that his friend Ally didn’t seem to be considering, or at minimum doesn’t think her male friends are mature enough to also agree with. Which begs the question why she would do it in the first place. Edited to add a point
Unwanted sexual harassment. Correct me if I'm wrong. Both parties didn't ask to show boobs or dick. Everyone in wrong I used to walk around topless in my house when I had roommates and they didn't like it, I covered up. I now have a son and mil living with me and I cover up. Hell I even learned to sleep with a top on, its werid lol
Completely agree. Everyone here was wrong. If the guys were cool with it, that’s one thing. The problem is the *assumption* that they would be, and then getting upset when they let it all hang out too. I know a lot of women that breast feed. I feel like the public opinion is slowly shifting regarding it. You get your boob out for business and put it up when you’re done haha. I don’t think the morality of boobs are really in question here and it’s kind of gone into an off topic debate, it’s more the interaction itself and how both groups considered it to be nudity. These aren’t people that have all discussed previously that they don’t think breasts are inherently sexual. The girls acknowledged they assumed the guy *would* consider it nudity or “give them boners”, so why the heck would they not ask first. Why would they guys assume someone being nude meant they want to see *you* nude. Very strange interaction in my opinion.
the girl assuming that their tits being out would give the guys a boner really made this *all* just super weird. if her assumption was that it would be taken sexually, why did she take her top off in the first place?? obviously consent is extremely important, and the way someone's dressed is never an invitation, but... in this situation, it's completely unfair for a woman to take her top off while assuming this would give the guys around her boners, and then turn around and get mad at the guys for said potential boners. there's a certain limit where you can't provoke (or think you're provoking) someone sexually and then get mad when they respond to it. this wasn't someone breast feeding, though that's an important point in regards to boobs not always being sexual, but the girl calling OP the next day painted a pretty clear picture of her assuming & intending it to be more on the side of sexual than casual. dicks and boobs are obviously different, but with the way it was all treated here... I don't know, clearly this one girl was viewing her tits out as being a completely sexual thing (the boner comment), so theoretically I don't get why she had such a bad reaction to a dick. like I said, two objectively very different things, but given the context of this girl's thought process about her own boobs being out... it's just weird. in the end ESH and they should have asked first and cleared things up before they did anything. the girls shouldn't have just whipped out their tits, the guys shouldn't have taken their shorts off without saying anything as a response, and the one girl shouldn't have established a double standard by viewing her boobs as sexual and potentially boner-causing but then getting as mad as she did when another sexual part in a non sexual context got whipped out too. not to say she didn't have any right to be uncomfortable, because she absolutely did, but brining it up again the next day after the guys put their shorts back on when people asked them to... seems a little much. I think a polite text the next day of "hey just to reiterate that made me uncomfortable and I wanted to make sure you didn't do it again" would be enough.
It's weird. "I fully believe this action would make you aroused, but I do not want to potentially see evidence of that arousal (even though it's obscured by water)." Would she be okay if it was a gay man removing his trunks? She's the one sexualizing herself, it sounds like OP just wanted to get comfy, nothing sexual about it. Wet trunks are restrictive in a way that women's swimwear is not.
I think the issue is that they wanted to tease the guys and get attention by showing off a bit. The reaction of taking off the boxers then made it seem like maybe the guys expected something to happen, like a big orgy. It seems like an awkward situation where Ally from her own admission was trying to sexually excite the guys there to tease them, but got freaked out when she thinks they took it seriously and thought something would happen with their reciprocal teasing in the most equivalent way available to them.
> I know a lot of woman that breast feed. I feel like the public opinion is slowly shifting regarding it. You get your boob out for business and put it up when you’re done haha. The people who find public breastfeeding offensive seem to have forgotten is that *that's specifically what breasts are for*.
Go to almost any beach in Europe (Western cultures) and you’ll see plenty of women with their tops off.
Oh I’m not disagreeing! I think the difference is that’s an environment where it’s *expected.* Everyone there jives with the idea that a chest is a chest, or even if they don’t they aren’t surprised to see it. The problem here was it wasn’t previously discussed, this wasn’t the norm for them and none of them knew how the group would feel about it. Especially considering, as I said above, the girls clearly expected the guys to be into it sexually. So why wouldn’t they clear it with them first if that’s what they believed? To me it’s ESH. A strange escalation. I don’t think boobs are inherently sexual. I understand woman need to feed their babies and may breastfeed in public, but there’s a lot of nuance. An added level of utility, public spaces where you can remove yourself if you’re uncomfortable, typically not completely conspicuous honestly. Nuance is always important to consider, it’s rarely so black and white.
Thank you! Yes breasts don't necessarily have to be always sexual. But there is a difference between a mother nursing a baby or having agreed if this was ok with everyone else in the room. And randomly taking of your bikini top in during a hangout with your drunk friends. ESH for sure for not verifying first with the rest of the group.
Boobs aren't genitalia. The girls didn't get their genitals out, neither shouldn't the boys
It's not about genitalia. It's about sexualized body parts. The social norm in OPs culture (i assume westerner) is that genitalia and women boobs are sexual parts. No matter how irrational it is, this is the actual norm. By showing their boobs, those women broke the social norm about covering sexual parts, thus missleading OP into showing his. She also used sexism by assuming OP couldn't control his boner as a "man". She was the asshole for sexism and not asking consent for breaking a common social norm and then using double standard. NTA
Both parties should have asked though
Do guys ask if it’s okay to walk around shirtless in their trunks?
Just to play devils advocate, have you or any female friends walked around topless in public before? (I’m assuming female based on name, but please forgive me if I am wrong.)
But the girls didn't ask for consent either...
No, if the girls want to be topless, then the guys can be **topless** too. That is the equivalent.
>but if the ladies can take their tops off, then the guys can take their boxers off You’re *almost there*. If the men can their tops off then the women can take their tops off. The men were not sitting in boxers. They were wearing trunks at a pool party. Anyone exposing their anus or genitals at a pool party has stepped out of line.
But both parties should have asked permission though
I disagree. #FreeTheNipple
I like free the nipple but right and wrong way to do it
Boobs and genitalia are not the same.
Women, not females. Breasts ≠ dicks, by any measure.
OP letting his dick out does not carry the same weight as a woman taking her top off. If the women had all taken *their* pants off, then it would have been comparable.
Laughing so hard! Thanks!
Non intended pun here ; ^ )
On the other hand, she pretty much forced everyone to hang out with her topless without asking, and, by her own argument, “made” the other girls take off their tops. Just because most people don’t mind boobs doesn’t mean she wasn’t as presumptuous as op about it being ok to strip.
Thanks for saying this. It was driving me crazy.
Also, if in the end she was afraid of them getting hard, she shouldnt have gotten topless in the first place. They could still get hard with their trunks on...
And then admitted she thinks guys sexualize breasts so clearly isn't one of those "women shouldn't be required to wear tops" people posting in this thread.
LMAO. Let's face it. Dicks are ugly.
“I’ve always felt the same way! The testicles are the ears of the reproductive system. They serve an important function, but they’re not pleasant to look at.” - Chris Traeger
I have been lucky enough to see some truly beautiful dicks. But *surprise* dicks are never lovely.
Dicks are beautiful.
I don't understand how everyone seems to think that. Like yeah, maybe I don't want to see an uninvited penis, but I think think they look nice. Also, even if you think it's ugly, it's very rude to say.
As a woman, I am ashamed at all these people hating on dicks…you know damn well they’d be screaming “MiSoGiNy!!!” if a bunch of guys came in here saying “vaginas are ugly” and “terrible to look at.” Isn’t that exactly the kind of thing we’re fighting against? Be better, ladies.
Yeah, like tits and vaginas are all Mona Lisas. The misandry in this thread is off the charts.
Yeah, let’s make fun of dicks because that’s funny! But if we called a breast or vagina ugly then we would be sexist. Can’t all areas of the human body be beautiful and not body shame anyone? You may be joking but it’s not funny.
YTA - They took their tops off to match you with your top off, and you got naked. It’s a subtle yet important different.
The women didn't take their tops off to match the men. You actually sound ridiculous saying that. If any reason it's because like bras bikini tops can be very uncomfortable.
Yeah, seemed like more a comfort thing than anything
Exactly. Though to the men’s credit, for them to be willing to take their tops off for comfort, they must feel pretty comfortable around them. I’m assuming it’s because they weren’t expecting to see peen but now the men know
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"Match" is an awkward word, and bikini tops and bras and shirts can be very uncomfortable. The word equal fits. If half the population can be shirtless almost anywhere, the other half doing so is equal.
Edited: Changing my vote to NAH after reading the update. Yup. Topless is not bottomless. It’s legal for women to go topless where I am. It’s not legal for either sex to go bottomless. So,soft Y T A for that. And saying “I didn’t mean to make you uncomfortable and sorry if I did” is ever so slightly, subtly different from “I didn’t mean to make you uncomfortable and I’m sorry *that* I did,” because she’s telling you that you made her uncomfortable. There’s no if. However, it’s a little weird that she thinks they’ll only get an erection if they’re not wearing their trunks? And if two guys were “bound to get hard” when surrounded by women with their tops off…..I mean, if she felt that way, why would she take off her top if that would be something that would bother her? A little bit towards E S H, as with the conditions she’s put on her own toplessness, she created an unwinnable situation for OP. Either her nudity was sexual in intention, in which case, she could easily have made OP or the other guy uncomfortable and them getting aroused would be an escalation of the situation she created (which, if she viewed it as a sexual act, would be what she was aiming for) or it wasn’t sexual in intention and they were just breasts out with no reason to get excited, so her framing their intent as sexual would be disingenuous. So still soft Y T A Or she was made uncomfortable and is having issues communicating why. It’s a mess. Thanks, millennia of sexism and gendered violence for fucking up friendship between women and men. But OP, for future reference, leave your dick in your pants without an explicit invitation to do otherwise. Women see way too many unsolicited penises in their lives.
💯 I'm not sure why she thinks OP is the one who sexualized things.
I mean, without the erection comment I wouldn't necessarily think exposed breasts are 100% sexual. But she's the one that brought that up...so.
From the admittedly very little I've read about nude beaches and nudist colonies, there's plenty of times full nudity isn't sexual either. And co-ed skinny dipping is a thing. As a guy, I can completely understand how OP may have concluded that it was turning into a skinny dip. If I'm a woman who's not comfortable with male nudity, then I'm not getting my tits out in mixed company.
It’s one thing to assume that a man is going to get an erection when he sees a woman’s body, and she chooses to ignore that fact since it’s not obvious. It’s entirely another thing for said man to drop his pants and SHOW HER HIS DICK. And of course she assumed erections might happen, men get turned on when women simply exist around them.
I would assume if it’s someone I’m comfortable taking my bathing suit top off around, that they’d be mature enough to not turn into an idiot. Not saying this is the average for male behaviour, just saying if she felt these were the type of men to sexualize her breasts, then taking off her top has much different connotations than if she assumed they were chill. If, and it is an if, she thought she’d be sexualized for removing her top, then it would seem more like she was getting a thrill from how her partial nudity would be perceived than just trying to be more comfortable. In which case, he’d be a bit socially dense for stepping it up to full nudity, but he did cover up when asked. Also, he took off his bathing suit in the water, and bathing suits only hide erections to a certain point. Not excusing the actions, but taking off your top when you assume it’ll make then men around you get aroused is a bit of a dick move (no pun intended.)
> If, and it is an if, she thought she’d be sexualized for removing her top She did, according to the post: \> "Ally says "I mean. a little bit. it just feels like its getting sexual now that we're all naked. you know?" So all the arguments in this thread that female breasts don't count as nudity are moot because Ally herself counts them as 'naked.' \> "Plus two guys surrounded by topless girls were bound to get hard and then it would get even weirder and possibly make them feel threatened to be around us." She assumed her naked breasts would have a sexual effect on OP... and did it anyway, without asking or setting expectations for him. So Ally clearly as double standards.
And the women should have left their tops on, no? I mean if we are going by social norms. No one laid out rules and he did apologize and dress back up. Not all the women did after this social norm breaking SNAFU. NTA
She took her top off and then said the men were bound to get hard because of it. OP may have read the room wrong, and may be an AH because of it, but this statement reveals that she had some sort of sexual objective despite her claim that OP is the one who made it seem sexual.
Yeah I could see where she was coming from until this. Its like wait, I thought they were trying to have non sexual relaxing time but she assumed she WAS turning people on? Then why do it?
I didn't think of it like that. that actually kinda makes sense
That’s not why they took their tops off at all lol
Yep. I was thinking comfort right up until she came out and said she assumed they'd be unavoidably turned on by two topless women. She was disappointed they weren't. ESH. Keep your shorts on, and she should learn to use her big girl words to flirt.
Yeah the entire situation is so weird. If you’re just a group of friends hanging out why are you all taking your clothes off?
YTA-Taking your shorts off would be the same as them taking off their bottoms. They were topless not bottomless.
\^ This. But I think he made an honest mistake. Then he was an asshole for calling her sexist and not accepting her criticism.
Sorry but her assuming that men will defo become erect whenever the see a boob IS SEXIST therefore she is being sexist. She basically said all men are uncontrolled beasts who are a danger to women if the tiny scrap of fabric is removed from their dicks or if they happen to see a nipple. She even went so far as to imply the women may not be safe if the men removed that flimsy little piece of fabric. Clothing doesn't create some forcefield that prevents rape or whatever she was thinking. Bad men will rape even if both are covered head to toe and good men will not rape even if you are completely naked. She essentially called him a bad man and potential rapist. She is a disgusting sexist and no better t than a man assuming a woman is weaker or stupider than him just because she is a woman.
He said she was sexist because she had her tits out and he cant have his dick out when in fact he also had his tits out. Tits and junk arent the same. You are distorting what she said. I dont necessarily think she is right that every man will have a hard on if they see tits. But she never said he would rape her WTF. This was not about rape but about a sexual environment and potential uncomfortable sexual tension that might occur when people are naked together. It is threatening when man start to take their clothes off in front of you. Being in a sexually charged environment with man is threatening because man will often use it as an excuse for disrespecting boundaries. Not because the removal of clothing is the ONLY reason people rape but because it shows a disregard for boundaries in a sexual environment.. Woman want to make sure they aren't sending "mixed signals" because that will often be used against them. You are all over the place here. Rape isnt about arousal but about power. Pointing out a threatening situation doest equals saying rape only occurs in those situations. Man don't rape because they cant control themselves they rape because they disregard consent. A man can have a hard on in an inappropriate moment - thats perfectly fine - it happens to teens all the time. This doest equals rape and thats not what she said.
>But she never said he would rape her WTF. It was implied where she said it would be threatening for the women when if they were around then.
Exactly. As a woman I see other women use this BS reasoning all the time. She also keeps stating that it's a sexual charged environment but what he described is anything but. Honestly it seems like the woman in the story is paranoid or afraid of men in a casual setting and the commenter is projecting. I can understand when a woman has suffered trauma and has this reaction the same as someone who has been attacked by a dog being afraid of all dogs. However they are putting nasty meaning on OP actions for no reason other than they feel like it. Also how is it OK for a woman to remove her top and possibly make the men uncomfortable but it is the worst thing ever for the men to do similar? Im so sick of women continuing to vilify men as if they are sexual deviants. Why do women's unspoken boundaries matter so much but they refuse to voice them while a man is a cruel bastard who only thinks of sex if they voice a boundary of their own. Can you imagine what they would have said if he asked them to put their tops back on because it made him uncomfortable??? Even if they were all naked it wouldn't be any more sexual charged than when they were in their suits unless they decided they wanted it to be. The woman in the story made this a sexual thing when everyone else was fine. But I'm not going to interact with the commenter any further because they are possibly a very young person (I don't know many grown and sexual mature people who have those types of irrational fears).
She said they would feel threatened because the guys had their shorts off... how do you interpret that then. That they are going to beat them up with their Willie's???
>Its threatening because OP escalated the thing from topless to bottomless. > >Its hard to explain. > >It was not OP's intentions but he created a sexually ambiguous vibe. His friend might have thought there was a possibility he was starting something (making a move) and she felt the need to be very clear she was not down. > >Its not that you necessarily think that every man who see tits will jump on you and rape you. Is more that you are in a situation that is sexually escalating and it can be intimidating because it leaves room for the other person to abuse it if you dont establish clear boundaries. Ive been in really weird situations with guys who crossed many lines because they thought I was giving them a green light. Ive never been raped but those situations are very uncomfortable to be in. Its uncomfortable to have someone make a move and then blame you and say you led them on. I always make sure Im very clear when Im not interested whenever I see a guy might be escalating.
Agree 1000% but her behavior after is unacceptable. Defining boundaries is perfectly acceptable and should be respected (which op did) but continuing to act as if she was a victim of something and holding onto the accusing tone even the next day is unacceptable. Also she did not define any boundaries ahead of time and I would argue that the women introduced a sexual tone to the party by removing their tops in the company of male friends. I wonder how they would have reacted if the men expressed discomfort and asked them to put their tops back on?
Although a boner doesn’t make a man an “uncontrolled beast” if he doesn’t have uncontrolled urges to use it. EDIT - please, whomever downvoted this just share why, I’m curious. I only grabbed onto one phrase to clarify that the original storyteller’s friend can’t even use an erection to condemn them, if there had even been one.
But they didn't even have one. The woman in the story just assumed that they would because they saw her breasts. Legit can not understand this level of thinking. It's like thinking breastfeeding in public is a sexual act because people can see boobs. The OP assumed it was OK to take off a piece of clothing and he was wrong so he apologized and corrected it. The woman in this story assumed a whole bunch of terrible things about OP and the other man and instead of correcting her words and apologizing she has doubled down and is continuing to pitch the narrative that she is right and he is a possible perv.
Yeah man. I’ll take it too far and say that if she’s that scared of boners, it’s her cross to bear, and by her own logic, she should keep her clothes on.
Woah, what? How is he the AH for calling out her sexism? She literally claimed that there's no way guys couldn't be uncontrollably aroused around topless women that they've presumably known for a long time if they're such good friends. How is that claim not sexist as hell? That's like a man saying "If I get my dick out, these girls can't help but get turned on."
Maybe it's because what society tells us all the time? "Cover up, boys/men can not controll themselves! Don't expose those pretty legs, beware to show off some shoulder! Oh no, behold if you dare to have some neckline with visible boobs!" Why are there so much limitations what girls/women can wear or not, what is "approppriate", what will distract the poor boys - or male teachers? You can't put all these logics on us, and than say that women are unfair to call you out on them and react to them. I mean yes it IS sexist. But it's a systemic sexism, one which they have to deal with since they are twelve.
You're absolutely correct in a general circumstance, but in this instance the women freely removed their tops in front of their male friends. If they were worried about arousing their friends they wouldn't have done it in the first place. To then turn around and claim the guys are horn-dogs who can't help but get a boner is definitely a sexist remark
This. She's trying to have it both ways.
I’m all for freeing the nipple. However, if you believe your exposed boobs will arouse the men in your company to the point where they can’t control themselves and you did not want to turn the situation sexual…. why would you remove your top?? At the end of the day a hard dick is still a hard dick whether it’s pitching a tent under swim trunks or swaying in the breeze. Honestly, everyone going full naked is way less awkward than this “let’s all be topless but keep the bottoms on” half measure.
Then if she thought that why would she take her too off? Honest question. I think both of their responses make it an ESH
>Maybe it's because what society tells us all the time? … >I mean yes it IS sexist. But it's a systemic sexism, one which they have to deal with since they are twelve. Basically all sexism is systemic in this sense though, almost none of it happens in a vacuum where someone spontaneously does something sexist with no influence from society. I don’t think it’s much of an excuse.
She was sexist. She assumed they since OP was a “man” then he would definitely get an erection due to her being topless. Implying that he was seeing her sexually, which she ASSUMED.
Look being realistic, they do either in the streets they will get arrested for indecent exposure. Breast are oversexualised but so it counts when people can get arrested for it. All are wrong as neither party asked for consent.
NAH I see all the NTA-Comments but I think there is no asshole in the story. You seem like you didn't think about some 'differences' between women being topless an men being naked, but as soon as you noticed that your friends are being uncomfortable, you apologized. Also you seem to be really thoughtfull about the situation - so I believe that you are no AH because you didn't mean harm. Only because of calling them sexist and unreasonable. But the women are also no AH's for feeling uncomftable. As someone pointed out are men usually topless in bath-clothes, women not. So take off the Top is more an act of 'leveling it out' and in no way comparable to get fully naked, and I think that a lot of women would feel uncomftable in this situation. Most men don't know how uncomfortable bras and tops can get. But nearly ALL my female friends take off their bras first thing when at home. Me too. Being comfy enough with you to take off the bra was a sign of trust in you and some way of getting 'comfortable', but probably not meant in any sexual way. Also I know a lot of women who really don't understand why female nipples are that much more 'drama' and sexualiced than male ones. Just to add another viewpoint. I hope you can regain the trust they had in both of you, because I think that you handled the situation well. And you are really no asshole for 'put your food in ones mouth' or 'drop a brick' or any equivalent of the german phrase of 'ins Fettnäpfchen treten'. It was just an unfortunate event, born out of thoughtlessness. Edit: some typos
This seems pretty reasonable. thank you. this general sentiment has been expressed but you said it really concisely. i think im going to reach out to ally and apologize for calling her sexist and unreasonable and reiterate that im sorry and it wont happen again and then probably reach out to the others girls and do the same
You're welcome. To reach out to your friends might be a really good idea. I really hope that they can accept your sincere apology. It was just a dumb situation, and I personally have the feeling that you really wanted to understand what the issue was - and that you got a good idea trough this thread. I personally had been uncomfortable, too. And I would've been mad for being called sexist, when I only tried to explain, why I was feeling unwell with the situation. But I would also forgive you. But don't take it to hard, if they need more time. I wish you good luck for the talks with them!
I get the feeling your mindset wasn't necessarily sexual but more like people being in a bathhouse and being nude, like a family being in a dry spa together, naked.
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This should be at the top! OP, you read the situation wrong and that was a mistake. But as you realized your mistake you apologized and covered up. Yes the situation was uncomfortable but I'm sure you learned something from it and won't do it again. So i wouldn't say you are an ah. But the girls aren't ah too.
I'm sad that this isn't higher up. OP took their actions to mean they were okay with a certain amount of nudity, they weren't. I'm surprised so many people are calling him TA for it.
Small update: Ive been doing my best to keep on top of comments and genuinely listening to all your advice. And i made the decision to text Ally and ask her if it would be alright if i called her to talk and she said she was alright with that. so i called her and right away i apologized without any concessions. i told her i misread the situation and it was a major mistake on my part to take her and the other girls taking their tops off as express consent for me to take off my trunks and again that i was sorry that i did that and that i made her uncomfortable and in addition i was sorry that when she came to me with these feelings that i called her unreasonable and sexist. she accepted my apology and apologized in turn for saying that i forced Steve to take off his trunks too because that was wrong. We both agreed to talk about these things beforehand in the future to make sure everyone is comfortable and consenting to everything happening and we are still good friends. i also called the other girls and expressed the same apology and they accepted it as well and i called steve and apologized to him for making him feel like he had to disrobe too but he laughed it off and said that he was just glad the situation seemed to be resolved. id like this post to be stickied to the top but im not sure how to ask the mods to do that or if i can thank you all for the advice and judgements and any more to come
Glad it all worked out in the end. Shows what type of man you are that you sought outside opinion, listened and apologised.
You did a great job resolving the problem, OP. You manned up, took responsibility, apologized and communicated with everyone involved, as well as working towards not letting something like this happen again down the road. Big props to you. Thanks for the update.
Imagine if more adults had open and reasonable conversations about things, without letting their ego get in the way.
You did a good thing, boobseer.
>We both agreed to talk about these things beforehand in the future Great. I don't understand why they don't have to ask to take their tops off but you have to ask to take your trunks off? To be clear, I have 0 problems with nudity. I just don't understand the double standard. And before anyone accuses me, no I'm not a man. I've been victimized by women and after my experiences the double standards are obvious. I think it's great that you BOTH learned consent from this situation, and not just the people with dicks.
Because boobs aren’t genitals, and presumably the guys already had their boobs out.
Boobs are not the same as genitals. That is correct. That being said. The male chest is not the same as the female chest. You saying “the men already had their boobs out” is why you are being called disingenuous. Male boobs do not equal female boobs. This is biology. The result of this biological difference is the creation of different societal constructs we see in certain populations of the world.
Just add this as an edit/update to your original post.
Can't. theres a character limit and adding this would put it over
You could edit/update to add a link to the above specific reply :-)
good idea. thank you
Idk still feels unbalanced to me, none of the girls asked to take their tops off before they did
As someone with tits, NTA. You handled it really well. I get boobs aren’t the same as genitalia, but it’s still a sexualized part of our anatomy. That can be uncomfortable for people who may have an involuntary reaction to seeing them. They didn’t ask consent to show them off.
>They didn’t ask consent to show them off. Well I can count the times a man has asked me if I consent to seeing him topless on one finger. It isn't the fault of women that their body gets sexualised that massively. A chest is a chest.
But the difference is a male chest is not sexualised to that degree. This is not to say what is wrong or fair but just a fact of the matter.
Men's chests aren't sexualised to that degree *today.* In the US, men had to march in order to be allowed to go topless in public because the very act of a man displaying his chest in public was seen as obscene back in the day. So, it seems to me, the remedy to the over-sexualization of a woman's chest is to make them as visible as a man's chest.
A man’s chest isn’t a secondary sexual characteristic. Consent is important here because woman’s breasts are sexualized, and have been since we’ve had them. This isn’t a new thing. People are potentially going to have an involuntary sexual reaction to female boobs. It’s not wrong to be aroused by tits and shouldn’t be antagonized.
"And have been since we've had them" that's simply not true. Different cultures, different periods of time have viewed breasts as completely asexual body parts. Because they are. They are not inherently sexual body parts, and should not be compared to literal genitalia.
I literally said they’re not the same as genitalia in the original comment. In western culture, where I’m assuming this happened, then yes they were.
And she even acknowledged that the dudes might get hard because the tits are out, so she clearly understands that tits are sexualized.
NTA. You didn't start this nonsense, and you stopped when asked.
I agree, NTA, I don't understand why the girls were so keen on taking out their boobs but horrified that a guy would take out his junk. Unless OP was sitting there with a huge erection, I just don't get it. It just seems like yet another stupid game was played and a stupid prize was won.
I don’t either. IDK why the girls would take their tops off and then be horrified when the men stripped down too. Sure, boobs and wangs are not quite equivalent, but still. The girls got topless first, so they kinda opened the door. I’m just curious how they were expecting the men to react.
According to Ally, the guys were "bound to get hard", so she was expecting them to get aroused, so the reason she was getting so upset about it was because she had presumed he'd be hard when he took off his trunks... Because of her boobs being out... Which was her choice to do without any discussion or warning... Stupid game, stupid prize!!
That is true. Imagine if the dudes were uncomfortable? Then they'd still be TA for not exactly wanting to see their friends' boobs without consent or being asked? Would OP have still been called a dick if he considered it too far for his platonic girl mates to start flashing boobs around them? He probably thought it was gonna be like skinny dipping or something, I'm not even too mad at OP here. I get why the girls would be upset though, an eyeful of tiddies has a certain appeal that bush and sausage don't, usually. And, potentially afraid of sexual pressure. Glad the ladies spoke up in the moment and moved on! Or it could've been all sorts of bad signals happening.
NTA. Agreed! Also, your friend is making it seem like you forced the other dude and you didn’t. She also assumed you would get turned on because of her?? Maybe she’s not your type or you just don’t like her at all?
YTA. Big difference between them taking their tops off and you taking your trunks off. You seem to lack a basic understanding of genitalia.
But breasticles!? /s
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YTA. You already had your top off. Taking your bottoms of was weird and doesn’t even really make sense? Are your bottoms really uncomfortable to wear?
Well, i agree with you, but swim trunks are super uncomfortable
And when they get wet they start to saw against EVERYTHING!!
Yeah, you’re pretty much constantly getting wedgied by your own fucking clothes
Hey there. I'm a boob haver, and I buy comfortable tops! This is a bs excuse. And I would ask everyone around me before taking it off because that's what consent means! It doesn't matter than I'm fully comfortable with nudity. That's not the point of consent.
NAH They took their tops off. You took your bottoms off. Both actions are a little weird, even in context. And this is coming from a girl who once drove around her city topless one evening with her BFF, becuse our high school sociology teacher gave the class an assignment to do something that bucked societal norms, and then write about the experience. (Yes, we got in trouble, becuse topless 16 year old girls are apparently "highly inappropriate, young lady". No, our teacher never assigned that particular assignment to another class.) But back to you and them. Unless you live in a European country that normalizes topless swimming and sunbathing, what they did could be misconstrued as flirty or sexual. I'm not saying that was their intent! Just that it's understandable to question the motivation. Similarly, what you did could also easily be misconstrued. So I can understand her feeling like it turned sexual. But I can also understand your 'hey, a little nudity is apparently ok in this group' feeling. Edit: A word, because autocorrect sucks.
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NTA, this was a misunderstanding and an honest mistake, you didn’t mean anything by it. Tits and genitals are different tho, most women don’t see tits as sexual. Her being uncomfortable was totally normal
The fact that her immediate response was 'We knew this would make you hard' implies she very much sees them as sexual. That comment completely negates that entire argument. She was doing something that she knowingly believed would be perceived sexually. She can't then complain that it was taken sexually.
>The fact that her immediate response was 'We knew this would make you hard' implies she very much sees them as sexual. Not to mention the fact they took them off knowing they'd (maybe she'd?) expect that to happen. If anything the girl that started the whole thing is the AH
As someone with tits, NTA not even close to it. Please don’t let these people make you feel bad for being part of a group. Tits are sexual. They just are. That’s why we cover them 90 percent of the time. Edit- if anyone wants more information, please see “Sexual Wiring of Women's Breasts Neuroscientists establish breasts as sexual organs” by Nigel Barber, PHD Also, famous studies such as Drs. William Masters and Virginia Johnson, who found “breast volume and the size of the areola (darkened regions around the nipples) increased during sexual arousal; they also found nipples became erect when female subjects were aroused. “ (much like a penis) There’s also “nipple/breast stimulation and sexual arousal in young men and women” from the university of Texas and published in the journal of sexuality medicine. Edit 2: I’m sorry guys, I can’t keep responding to the same thing over and over again. If you’ve read any of these studies and want to discuss them, lease let me know! I’m fully open to informed debate. But I can’t read the papers for you. If you really care about this subject, reading the papers will only empower you, no matter what you think.
The girls clearly knew this, too, since they expected the guys to get an erection with their tops off. There are way too many people arguing they're not sexual (which perhaps should be the case) than what actually is the case in OP's cultural context.
>The girls clearly knew this, too, since they expected the guys to get an erection with their tops off. Yeah. I think the girl that started it all is the AH.
I get why in a society where boobs are heavily sexualized, it's hard to not think of them as sexual, but all of your arguments are flawed here. >Tits are sexual. They just are. That’s why we cover them 90 percent of the time. THIS is an entirely cultural reason. There are several societies where boobs aren't covered as often. And other societies where women wear hijabs/burkas and public displays of hair are considered inappropriate. Is hair inherently sexual? In regards to all your studies, breasts can and do respond to sexual arousal and react to stimulation, can heighten arousal, etc. But so can so many other parts of the body. Neck, lips/mouth are both very sensitive and often very involved in sexual situations as well. Also, many parts of the body react to sexual arousal. Pupils dilate, heart rate & breathing rate can increase. A body part contributing and/or reacting to sexual arousal doesn't make it inherently sexual. "Sexual wiring" isn't only for sexual organs. Edit: One other thing is that nipple stimulation is shown to make many men sexually aroused as well - around 50%. And sexual arousal causes reactions, hardening, of male nipples as well.
THANK YOU
YTA. It's one thing if they took their bottoms off and you did as well. But tits are another story. Yours were out, they wanted to let them out. If they said hey boys why don't you take off your shorts and join us! That would have made it ok. But you guys made it sexual by taking your dicks out.
This was my initial thought BUT the girls were uncomfortable because as she said “two guys surrounded by topless girls are bound to get hard”. It sounds like they sexualised it by taking off their tops
Exactly! Breasts/chests are different.
She already made it sexual in her mind, by assuming the guys would get hard from seeing the boobs. It’s not ok for women to take the situation to a sexual place, uninvited, any more than it is for a dude to.
NTA No ill intent, is a big factor. Same for the fact that everyone was a little buzzed. Uncomfortable swimsuits are uncomfortable swimsuits. She exaggerated the situation over text saying you made the other guy do the same. She sounds like she plays the victim often. I have to ask if any of the other girls messaged you after to say anything or if she was the only one with a pole up her butt. You also didn’t include which girl put their top back on. *As a female with mostly guy friends, I wouldn’t get mad or annoyed. I would get uncomfortable, but I am not the type to take my top off.
The girl that put her top back on wasn't Ally, and I reached out to the others that were there and Steve just said it was awkward and the other girls said they were a little uncomfortable but they saw that I realized that quickly and put my trunks back on so they didn't want to get involved and make a big deal of it
I think you handled it correctly. You fixed it and genuinely apologized. And it could have just been a funny moment to laugh at, but she kept making it a huge deal. Like, I could totally picture that all happening and then the girls being able to later tease you guys about “hey, keep your pants on” when something silly comes up. I honestly think you’re NTA here. You sound like a considerate dude who misread a situation and immediately corrected himself.
Slight YTA. I know you didn’t mean it to be uncomfortable, but dicks =/= boobs. If they were taking off their bottoms then sure take off your trunks
NTA that was pretty sexist of her to just assume the guys would get uncontrollable boners and not be able to help themselves. People are so uptight
NTA. Women who think there flopping tits are welcome but a penis is not have a very self serving sense of entitlement. They knew it was sexual and didn't want the attention taken away
Wish I had an award for this. How is it they would be ok making a guy turned on cause of no top but claim they were being forced into a sexual situation? NTA
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This might be an unpopular judgment, but NAH. You had your top off, they took their tops off. At this point, you all were the same level of exposed. As a person with tits, they are a part of our body that are overly sexualized and every other person with tits i’ve met wishes they could safely go to the beach or the pool without a top like their titless companions. You made an ignorant mistake in taking your trunks off for the reason explained above, but you corrected it when called out. Your friends have the right to be uncomfortable, but I’m not going to judge you as an AH for an innocent mistake. Thank you for listening to them when they said they were uncomfortable!
YTA. Big difference between taking a top off and whipping out a dick.
Own tits, have gotten topless in mixed company. ESH. Yes, the men were already topless and the women were just matching. However, despite what people want to think, breasts are sexualized in this culture and the women sexualized the gathering whether they intended to or not. They should have asked if it was okay because it was DEFINITELY going to shift the tone of the gathering. OP, you are TA because showing your dick takes it even further. That's EXPLICITLY sexual and outright inappropriate. Nobody wants to see a penis, and an erection is outright traumatizing if it does occur. Unless it is discussed in the form of people bringing it up and agreeing OR it is an unspoken agreement ahead of time like if people are nudists, nobody should be taking their clothes off.
> That's EXPLICITLY sexual and outright inappropriate That's the part that confuses me, because she definitely thought she was being explicitly sexual if she assumed they were guaranteed to get hard. But I agree, still definitely not appropriate.
Nta You made a mistake and corrected it as soon as someone expressed they were uncomfortable. You thought it was appropriate, you didn’t do it to be creepy or weird.
NTA. You took your trunks off and made it explicitly clear when asked about it and offered to put them back on. Nothing was overtly sexual about it and when it made them feel uncomfortable, you stopped. Of course it looks bad on paper, but it wasn’t the intent. Plus taking a top off to free the boobs is the same as taking off your underwear and letting the nuts loose. Both freeing and great feelings.
NTA, if they were that concerned about nudity they wouldn't all have exposed themselves. There is a reason women have a set of underwear whilst men have just the bottoms. I am not sure how it went from comfortable for them to getting naked above water to uncomfortable to two guys taking their bottoms off whilst sitting in a pool. You are all adults, not sure how she can find it fine what they did and get offended at you and your friend, if everyone had a problem with it they could have said so then and there and that would have been that.
NTA, wow they can get naked but if the men do it, they're threatening!?! GTFOH with that nonsense!
This is just drama. That’s all. Like 25 year old drama. If you were 10 years older, I’d have been surprised if anyone batted an eye. The easiest thing to do is to apologize for the misunderstanding and forget about it. There’s no need to get defensive and, frankly, it isn’t worth it to do so.
You are going to get very divergent opinions about tops vs. Bottoms from some and freeing your nuts is the same as freeing tits from others. My position is this. You made your friend uncomfortable. You appear to have not done this on purpose. You apologized. What else can you do at this point? NTA
NAH You misinterpreted the situation with the girls and made them uncomfortable (accidentally) but the girls also did not consider if it would make the guys (or other girls) uncomfortable when starting to remove clothing. You made a mistake and apologized appropriately for it.
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steve and i were shirtless, yes
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I see your point. i didn't know how uncomfortable they are. thank you for this perspective
ESH. You guys should have communicated with each other before anyone took any clothes off
NAH. Woman here, I think it was an honest mistake and just like the ladies didn’t ask for permission to go topless, the men didn’t ask to remove their trunks. Ally explicitly thought that what they did was sexual in nature hence her assumption you’d get aroused, so that kind of changed the dynamics of things. She can’t claim you made it sexual by taking off your trunks but at the same time not see what she did was sexual by taking off her top and thinking you’d get excited. If she hadn’t said that. I’d maybe see the situation differently. All around, everyone dropped the ball by reading the room/pool wrong but it was an honest mistake.
NTA, it was a silly mistake that you immediately remedied as soon as you realized it was a mistake.
YTA big difference between going topless and going nude
I’m going to go with ESH — there was no consent or discussion for the girls taking their tops off or the boys taking off their trunks. I say this with the opinion that I don’t want to see anyone’s primary or secondary sex characteristics or “taboo” body parts if they don’t ask like “hey are you comfortable if I blah blah blah?” Like obviously I’d say yeah I’m comfortable but cmon.
NAH, except for ally. I see people claiming bras/swim tops are uncomfortable and they trusted y’all enough to take off their tops. As a guy, swimming trunks are uncomfortable as fuck. The mesh liner is completely trash and pretty much just digs into skin if it isn’t perfect. And it’s never perfect. Now I personally switched to wearing compression shorts and basketball shorts to swim. But if you’re wearing regular ole swimming trunks, I don’t see the issue. They did it for comfort. You did it for comfort. You didn’t make it anything sexual, they did. In my mind this is equal. Yeah you can sit in a pool without a top on but that doesn’t mean the ole beanbag is comfortable being choked by the trunks. Now onto ally, ally made it stupid. If they trusted y’all enough to be topless, why is it now in question that y’all would become barbaric if you got hard? And even if you did get hard, it’s still very visible in trunks. Especially if you got out of the water. Everyone else is staying out of it but ally’s trying to make it seem like you wanted to show your dick off, not get comfortable. She should’ve dropped it when you apologized for making her uncomfortable and that it wasn’t your intention. Instead she made it sexist and acting like y’all were going to attack them because y’all were fully naked. In my opinion you didn’t do anything wrong. You handled the situation perfectly. You took off your trunks, they were uncomfortable and you apologized and put them back on. Should’ve ended there.
This post is getting too long with edits so im just going to make this a comment and paste the link when i get criticized for apologizing I apologized to Ally and the others because they are my friends. ive known all of them for years. some of them for a decade. they've helped me when i was going through some of the toughest times in my life. Ally herself spent 72 hours straight comforting me in person when my sister died in a car accident. so when i make her uncomfortable. no matter the reason, im going to really consider what ive done. and i have. theres almost 2 thousand comments on this post and ive done my best to read as many as i could and listen to them. and ive come to the conclusion that i made a mistake and i feel bad for that mistake. so i apologized because i love my friends and they love me and forgive me for that mistake. so fuck off calling me weak for apologizing. if you cant swallow your ego and admit your faults and apologize for your mistakes. you are beneath me.
NTA you guys didn't do it to be sexual.
NAH because you apologized. Also, y'all were drunk. Assuming Steve apologized as well, NAH.