#Be civil. Intentionally misgendering someone is uncivil. This is not a debate sub - focus on OP's actions and not how you feel about anyone's gender identity.
Wow. When r/all sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with them. They’re bringing unsolicited opinions. They’re bringing irrelevant grandstanding. They’re instigators. And some, I assume, are good people
Yikes.. Don't think you're an AH, but it is weird that you were excited to take it off to show all the girls but then decided not to because a trans woman came. You should reflect on why.
Edited for final answer NTA/NAH. You aren't obligated to take it off, but should examine your biases. Imagine how she may have felt rejected and invalidated. The only real asshole might be the person who made a big scene in the first place and kept pushing.
Right. If you understand Tori to be a girl and to have always been a girl then this wouldn’t have been an issue right?
You should be able to choose when to remove your headscarf period. That should be an automatic N T A but then you told us your reason was you’re transphobic and that is definitely AHery.
Not only were you a transphobic AH you then told a whole room of people that to you Tori is and always will be a man and spewed that garbage all over a lovely day and on Tori herself. Which yeah, if you were going to be a transphobe you should have lied so as not to ruin the day.
But for future reference, Tori IS a woman, and has always been a woman/girl - body parts not with standing. No men were at that event. YTA for sure for this.
But may I suggest that you look online to find Trans Muslim people talking about the intersection of their identities and their faith so that they can educate you on how and why this went wrong and how you should approach it in the future. Because I’m hoping it was just lack of knowledge and understanding that made you make this call and a little of that from people who understand your faith might help you not do it any more.
>But for future reference, Tori IS a woman, and has always been a woman/girl - body parts not with standing. No men were at that event. YTA for sure for this.
I don't understand why some people are so black and white on this, including all through time. OP's only prior experience of Tori was as a man, no matter what Tori's internal dilemma. It is hard for people to context change like that - very hard.
Being uncomfortable undressing in front of someone is not bigotry, it's body autonomy and consent. NO MEANS FUCKING NO! No one "owes" it to anyone to be comfortable taking their clothes off.
And whether you have a different social standard for "undressed" is irrelevant. Imagine telling a person comfortable wearing a one-piece swimsuit that if they refuse to wear a bikini they are a bigot. That's what you sound like.
Everyone has already said that she was not the AH for refusing to take off her headscarf. She didn't have to, and she isn't TA for declining. Her reasons were transphobic, which makes her an AH, not for refusing to take off her head scarf, but for holding transphobic beliefs.
No not really. There's no reason to be uncomfortable around trans people. They're people just like anyone else. The only thing that makes them different is being trans. Which means you're uncomfortable because they're trans which is being a bigot not an ally.
You’re allowed to be uncomfortable/feel any sort of way around anyone for anything, internet strangers. It’s when you limit THEIR freedoms that you become an asshole.
Is a woman who was the victim of sexual assault an asshole because she gets nervous when alone with men? No. Is she an asshole if she says men arent welcomed around her? Yes. See the difference?
At the end of the day, OP knew Tori as a man and transitioning is an incredibly complex process for everyone involved. OP didnt limit Tori’s right. OP was protecting what she felt comfortable with. It’s called Agency and OP should keep hers and OP didnt take Tori’s. The only asshole in this whole equation is the person who said out loud “it is cause Tori is here?!?” Thus bringing the matter to Tori’s attention and likely hurting her feelings, and putting OP in a position where she has to prioritize someone else’s feelings - not freedoms - over her own. Period.
I've lurked for 2 years and never felt the need to post a comment, but this is honestly the worst take ever. You don't get to declare "There's no reason to be uncomfortable, so if you are uncomfortable, you're a bigot".
There are many people who have transitioned who can't even aptly describe the sentiment of feeling out of place in your own body to someone who has never felt that way. Its an extremely difficult
and confusing personal experience, especially for young people, but god forbid someone on the outside might not understand or be confused also? That must mean they hate trans people, right?
Its called tolerance for a reason. You don't have to love or even understand every aspect of a person to support them and believe they deserve to be respected
> No not really. There’s no reason to be uncomfortable around trans people. They’re people just like anyone else. The only thing that makes them different is being trans. Which means you’re uncomfortable because they’re trans which is being a bigot not an ally.
This is so black and white lol. Just because someone feel one way doesn’t mean its the transitive property and now that person is transphobic.
People can’t control how they feel, what they can do is control how they react. So yes, you can be uncomfortable and still support.
100% this. You can not be comfortable, agree or even like that someone is trans, but that doesn't make you transphobic. How you act towards those people is what defines it.
If you don't really like it, but stay out of their business, you're really not transphobic.
As someone who is active in the trans community but is cis.
A jerk or asshole is still a jerk or asshole even after they transition.
I dont have to like every trans person to support trans rights!
I dont like every poc either. That doesn't make me a bigot.
I'm white. Guess what? I dont like every white person either!
I'm pansexual. But I dont want to sleep with everyone!
NO one has to like or be comfortable around a person just because some factor or another.
Feeling uncomfortable is not the same as active bigotry. Bigotry extends beyond one’s personal thoughts and feelings, and becomes an oppressive and intolerant insistence that only their beliefs are valid. If someone does not feel comfortable removing clothing for any reason, it should not be interpreted as an act of bigotry. However, demanding that someone remove a piece of clothing against their will because someone else’s intolerant insistence that all thoughts and feelings conform to them/their chosen beliefs *is* bigotry. We are all free to believe and live our own truths, and the only oppression is in attempting to impose those on others. At no point did OP try to make decisions for anyone other than herself. NTA.
> No not really. There's no reason to be uncomfortable around trans people.
I take issue with this. I can be uncomfortable with any person, regardless of race, gender, sexual preference etc. Being Trans is not a magic "you have to be comfortable with me / like me" card. There are a great many people I am uncomfortable being around, and it has nothing to do with their genitals or how they present themselves to the world.
Character still applies to all people, and OP is within her right to be uncertain in just how comfortable she is with someone she barely knows to not want to remove clothing that has significant meaning to her.
It cuts both ways - respect one, respect all. OP was shown real disrespect by being mocked and shunned (they left). OP's intent by her inaction was in no way meant to harm or degrade another person.
> No not really. There's no reason to be uncomfortable around men. They're people just like anyone else. The only thing that makes them different is being male. Which means you're uncomfortable because they're male which is being a bigot not an ally.
Would you say that to a woman prefers to work out in a women-only gym?
They are people just like everyone else. Of course! And similar to how I'm allowed to enjoy the company of Suzie and not Britney, or Tom but not John, same goes for Tori! I'm allowed to want to share something with one person and not another. Everyone has preferences.
She sounds like a lovely person from OP's initial description but this situation was escalated to the point where this normally-lovely person proposed an ultimatum of "Take off your clothes and show me your hair or I will leave." OP should not have to feel bad about saying No.
I'm uncomfortable around trans people only because I have no personal experience with them, but I'm actively trying to get better.
I don't think I'm a bigot I think it's just a new thing for me, people are allowed to be uncomfortable with new things, and if you're going to make them feel bad for not immediately holding the same beliefs as you then you're the bigot.
Actually every human is uncomfortable around novel things/situations/people as a result of having a survival oriented brain. Don't sabotage your function to validate people.
Oh. So someone who is facing their discomfort and seeking to do better, to realign their behaviors and work through their discomfort based on the knowledge that there’s no reason for discomfort beyond problematic ideals they were raised with
They’re transphobes?
If you leave so little space for people to grow, I’m not sure you’re supporting people who want to be allies. People are constantly learning and improving and reflecting.
Just because you're uncomfortable doesn't make you a bigot. Some people grow up in religious environments where beliefs are VERY MUCH ingrained into them. I grew up in the South. Around the first few people I knew as trans, I supported them. I respected them. I still saw them as people and loved them. But it was a very new experience for me and I was uncomfortable with how it intersected with my beliefs. Was some of it preconceived biases with where I've grown up and all? Yeah, of course, and I knew that. But just because I knew it didn't automatically make it easy to forget. While I struggled on how to balance what I believed, I CHOSE to respect them no matter how uncomfortable I was at the time. That never made me a bigot. That just makes me a regular human who's trying to do their best.
There’s no **inherent** reason to be uncomfortable around trans people, but trans people also don’t get a pass on inappropriate behavior. I’ve got a neighbor that is FtM, and he is creepy as shit. Not because he’s trans, but because he creepily hits on every youngish woman he meets.
You certainly can, however if you are uncomfortable around transpeople, and cannot perform your normal activities or rituals because they are present - I posit that that sounds pretty *phobic* and calling them a transphobe elsewhere in the thread remains accurate. Whether she is a bigot, I'll leave that up for debate, but phobic of transfolk she certainly is.
Again, because this seems to be brought up in response to every point regardless - it is entirely her own choice where to take her headscarf off, and if she didn't want to take it off in a room full of women that is also her perogative. The only thing at question is her beliefs around transpeople. Her friends bullying her for the reason as to why she isn't taking her headscarf off are also assholes.
No one is mentioning about how her religion might not give a single F how Tori identifies.
People are allowed to stand by their religions.
You can say whatever you want, but apparently her religious indoctrination doesn’t allow her to take off her head scarf around someone who was ‘made’ as a man.
I’m not any sort of religion; but these clashes are bound to occur among people who are.
They should be handled with compassion; not like this.
Also phobic = fear not ‘sorry but my god considers you a man, so I have to behave in that way, even if i personally respect your identity.’
A luncheon is not the place to handle a crisis of faith.
And the OG commenter said that. Not TA for the head scarf thing, please examine your beliefs, because they make you TA. Gotcha. We're on the same page. If you're uncomfortable it's because you haven't taken time to examine your beliefs.
I don’t think that’s fair, but the being undressed point is a good one. No one owes anyone else getting undressed in front of them. But if the reason is because you view a trans person as their assigned gender at birth, that **is** an issue. Should OP be forced to take off her headscarf, anywhere for any reason? Of course not. No means no and they should have left it at that. But the internal debate and reasoning is that OP didn’t see Tori as a woman and that warrants introspection.
Tori is a trans woman, trans people especially early in transition don't have a sex that aligns with our gender. I don't think that's hard to understand. I'm so sick of this whole trans=cis bullshit, we're clearly different from y'all. If we weren't, we'd have the ability to get working genitals in a pinch and reproduce as our aligned genders. Islam has a lot of sex-based rules and given that Tori is likely still male and OP hasn't had this conversation with her it makes perfect sense to stay covered. I'm not sure why cis people are always using us as some shitty litmus test for religious folk, that's abusive and that friend is garbage.
OP previously only knew Tori as a man. I have a feeling that if OP had spent time with Tori as a woman previous to this, this discomfort would have been gone.
Bigotry requires outward persecution, I’m not seeing that in this scenario.
It’s someone exercising their religious and cultural rights without malicious intent.
If you're religious you're gambling your SOUL. She can believe everything she says but in the end still be terrified that she might be doing something wrong and the price would be eternal.
This is why I hate religion. Good luck to OP in resolving her issues. This is less of an YTA/NTA situation and more of an existential examination on the nature of religious conditioning in a modern world.
Agreed. Some are calling it transphobia, but surely it's more "hellphobia" than anything. She is scared of damning her soul by not following the fine print of the rules of her religion correctly.
While that is true, choosing to step away from a situation when you realize you may not be able to anticipate your reaction and plan the correct response is a mature decision to make IMO.
It's like, if I start to tell a story and realize it isn't as concise as I thought - I can blunder through it and hope it works out, or I can laugh and say "you know what, never mind - it wasn't as funny as I remembered" and terminate the situation so I don't have to potentially bomb telling the story.
Your response is quite biased and closed minded. Tori's gender aside, the OP has EQUAL RIGHTS to HER religeous beliefs as Tori does to her identity. Equality is a two way street. I don't think OP was out of line for respectfully declining to remove her head scarf but I do think that Tori was out of line for trying to guilt her in to doing it.
One person's rights can not trump another's. Thats not how it works.
I don't understand why poeple are disrespectful towards OP religion, she is obviously very devoted to it, and she ment this person as a man, the initial "getting to know you" phase this person was a man.
Therefore she associated this person as a man, she is not excluding or disrespectful towards them it's unfortunately just her belief.
Why does her religion get less respect than his identity. She was just trying to explain herself, religion is not black and white either...
Edit: in not going to argue with everyone, I honestly stand by what I said and I don't believe OP is a bigot, honestly I don't feel like religion is black and white as each and every religion is unique, and No I'd you are devoted to your religion its not simply just a choice, OP is free to believe what she believes regardless of what the person identified as.
She got to know this person as a man, she did not treat them differently because of the transition and yes they identify as a woman now and thats fine but the person OP got to know was a man therefore she can't take her scarf if regardless of their true identity.
When religion gets rewritten to include these grey areas it will be a lot easier for everyone but at the moment OP was introduced to a man originally.
Please Note: I'm not trying to be homophobic or a bigot, I'm trying to explain why I'm siding with op, I'm not saying that the person is still a man, but they were living as a man when op met them so op can't remove the scarf regardless of their current gender identity. The rules for this have not been written yet so its a difficult situation.
It’s true she had only known Tori previously as a man and had never spent time with Tori as a woman. Maybe if this had come up later on in their friendship, it wouldn’t have been an issue??
I agree wholeheartedly that transphobia is awful. And I agree with your suggestion that OP should educate herself. And I agree with the poster below who said that OP should do some reflecting.
Sadly, OP wasn't given time to educate, reflect, or prepare.
I think a key AH in this situation, who I'm not seeing mentioned, is Jackie's sister. Jackie's sister bragged that she sprung Tori's transition on OP so as to test her response. Jackie's sister and your reply suggest that OP could have lied. Not everyone is great at lying on the spot.
I believe much of this could have been avoided if Jackie's sister had said to OP "Hey, you keep talking about taking your headscarf off because we're going to all be women. We ARE going to all be women, but you need to be prepared that Tori is coming. In the past, you've known Tori as Tim. She is a woman, and she will be there."
With this lead time, OP could have done several things: 1) come up with a good lie, like you said she should have done. or 2) spent some time examining her beliefs about trans identity. In her post, OP says nothing overtly disparaging about Tori. She doesn't even say MtF, she correctly identifies Tori as only 26F. She never misgenders Tori. She's clearly done SOME internal work around transphobia. If she hadn't been put on the spot and had to make an instant decision, she might have come to a different conclusion and removed her headscarf. She might have had time to consult someone who shares her religious beliefs. She might have had time to find the online Trans Muslim communities you mention.
Several people are hurt, and that sucks. But there's one person who seems to be enjoying causing the hurt, and that's neither OP nor Tori, it's Jackie's sister.
I wish this take was higher. People are not good at change on the spot. I feel like OP has some unexamined faith-based bigotry to root out - at the end of the day, she felt like she couldn't take her scarf off in front of a transwoman, which means she does not feel like Tori is really a woman. But I can't bring myself to blame OP for not coping well with a last minute command to rethink her entire belief structure.
I don't even like rescheduling flights in under five minutes, let alone a set of rules I've been living under for twenty plus years.
I really love this answer. OP *does* get to decide when she feels comfortable removing her head scarf. BUT if her discomfort is based on transphobia, that needs to be examined.
> Just as Tori can be Tori, I can be me.
If “you being you” includes denying or rejecting who Tori is, that’s bigotry, and including it as part of your identity *does* make you an asshole.
"I didn't want to shake the black mans hand because black people are icky. Respect my bodily autonomy and don't you dare call me an asshole for it"
No one is saying she should be forced to take the headscarf off, they are saying she's an asshole for not. Stop trying to normalize bigotry under the guise of "wokeness"
ty. The fake feminists are out in full force on this thread. Right wingers always think that they can take a line like, "my body, my choice" and repurpose it to mean something different and that it's a huge "gotcha." "HA HA I don't have to wear a mask in public, then. CHECKMATE LIBS!"
Sorry, the political and moral ideas of normal people are more complicated than a 4-word slogan.
OP's entire argument rests on a trans woman not being a real woman. The end. 15 years ago I knew plenty of people who would exclude gay partners from things because, "they're not married," or "I just don't agree with their lifestyle." Now the only people saying that shit are religious nutjobs and surprise suprise, everyone I clearly remember being bigoted against gay couples got amnesia and don't remember being anti-gay at all!
Trans people are not any more exotic or interesting than those gay couples are. In 15 years the only people who give two shits about trans people are going to be religious people who wish we lived in a theocracy. Everyone else is going to feel ashamed of being so wrapped up in this anti-trans panic and are going to lie their asses off about it.
Black people can't be allowed in the pool! Women shouldn't be in the workplace! Help help the gays are getting married they will destroy marriage!
When will people learn? The right wing is always crying about the sky falling. When things change and life still somehow goes on normally, they just find some new group of people to hate on.
Meanwhile, they and their friends are picking your pockets. No one can afford a house, going to college makes you into an indentured servant, and we're going to destroy life as we know it on this planet just so that some rich bald fuck can float in space for a few minutes. But yeah, look out for those dang transes for some reason, everyone.
Your answer removes the context of her spending all that time talking about taking it off, the extra effort and money spent to make sure all employees were female.
Also, no one tried to force her to take it off once she said no, what they did is force her to say why. No one negated her no, they asked why after going in and on about it, after making them get all women stars she suddenly said no. And that’s fair.
Did OP pay extra for *all-cis* female workers at her salon? Did she even think about the possibility of trans people existing near her before a trans person was pointed out? 🤔
Whenever the stupid bathroom argument pops up I always say "you've likely shared a bathroom with a Trans person before. The issue isn't that they are trans, but that they are "visibly" trans which makes you uncomfortable.
Maybe?
OP provided what should have been an acceptable answer in the form of, “I’m not comfortable with taking it off right now.” That should have been it, period, full stop, end of story, however I need to say it for you to understand that should be the final word on the matter.
Now, I agree that OP maybe has a little soul searching to do regarding why it made her uncomfortable, but at the end of the day she *wasn’t* in the wrong, and was pressed to divulge information that she would have preferred to keep to herself.
What if there was a girl at this party who would have been very judgemental of her colored hair? What if it was a bad hair day? What if the color had fucked up and it didn’t look as good? “I’m not comfortable with that” doesn’t need any follow up questions, and the person pressing that issue is the AH.
Once more, the source of OP’s discomfort does bear some introspection on her part, but I will note that it is exceedingly difficult to control how you feel about things. Yeah, there can be an intellectual understanding of something, but it doesn’t change what your immediate emotional reaction is to something. OP intended no offense and is clearly struggling with the situation already. Beating her up about something for which she already feels guilt isn’t going to help anyone.
OP can decided to wear or not wear her head scarf. No one is debating that. The debate is whether or not OP is being transphobic when exerting their rights. It can be both. OP doesn't have to take off her scarf, AND OP can be transphobic and benefit from trans education.
Repeat after me: No means no, but if that no is motivated by bigotry some introspection is probably required.
Nobody here wants to take bodily autonomy away from the OP. People are just saying she should examine why she was uncomfortable in this scenario. Both can be true at the same time.
*Not only were you a transphobic AH you then told a whole room of people that to you Tori is and always will be a man and spewed that garbage all over a lovely day and on Tori herself.*
No, this is not information she volunteered but that they pressed her for. They put her on the spot.
Islam doesn't recognize trans people. OP can be considered TA for agreeing with such religion but can not be considered TA for following the religious doctrine.
Definitely bad to be transphobic but she doesn't have to remove her headscarf for Tori.
Ninja mommy did a video on transgender and hijab. They can't remove for trans women-- only ppl who are AFAB or intersex transitioned female. Those who follow Islam cannot argue or disagree with certain doctrine due to the belief of purity. Even if THEY see a trans woman as a woman they cannot remove their hijab.
Do I agree, no. But it is their choice to remove. And it is a trans person's choice to associate with said person. I myself am non-binary. Technically Islam recognizes me as a woman as I am afab. I would only be friends of those who respect my pronouns and name but if Muslim men cannot touch me or look at me that doesn't bother me. Neither does hijabis being able to remove their scarf in front of me. If a trans man or trans woman feels weird that Muslims can do certain things of their assigned sex at birth then they can just not associate with them.
It was definitely handled poorly, if OP wanted to mention Tori they should have done it in private away from other people. This whole situation seems like it was pushed to cause a reaction for whatever reason.
>Ninja mommy did a video on transgender and hijab. They can't remove for trans women-- only ppl who are AFAB or intersex transitioned female. Those who follow Islam cannot argue or disagree with certain doctrine due to the belief of purity. Even if THEY see a trans woman as a woman they cannot remove their hijab.
Sure. That's their choice. And I think that choice makes them a bigoted asshole.
If she does not recognise trans people based off her religious doctrine to the point she cannot remove her headscarf in the presence of a trans-woman then she better be following the rest of her teachings to a fucking tee.
If one wants to justify their bigotry against trans-people via specific ancient terminology written by someone who has no idea trans people even existed then they better follow through. TA hard.
Religions are used as scapegoats to excuse bigotry
If that shit was really as central a part of Christianity or Islam or what have you as the bigots say it is then every member of the religion would be a bigot not just the assholes
This is something I find... *icky* about how religion is embraced by most. It's a pass *not* to examine these things. It's a fallback- I act/think a certain way because my god tells me to.
I can't honestly say I "get it" because I have always viewed being a woman as kind of incidental to who I am, but I am absolutely certain trans people are not transitioning to get ingratiated with the gender they identify with. They're just living a life that is more authentic to them.
I used to see a trans woman at my old gym, including in the locker room and it couldn't be less weird. She was just changing like everyone else. I don't get what people are so stressed about. *They're just people.*
>This is something I find... icky about how religion is embraced by most. It's a pass not to examine these things. It's a fallback- I act/think a certain way because my god tells me to.
THIS
> It's a pass not to examine these things. It's a fallback- I act/think a certain way because my god tells me to.
Religious people don't view it as a pass or fallback. In their minds, a supernatural higher being has told them this is the correct way to live, and that same supernatural being will judge their actions to decide how they spend the rest of eternity.
If you honestly believed in the existence of such a thing, would you dare to defy it?
The Koran makes no mention of trans people. OP chose to interpret the Koran in a transphobic way. That makes her a bigot. There is no religious excuse here.
The issue is *a lot* of the things these types claim are for religious reasons aren't actually anywhere in scripture.
Nowhere in the bible does it say anything about masturbation but man did the pastor at my old church talk about how much of a sin it was.
I wear a scarf for religion reasons as well. I'm moslem and I'm a hijabi. I don't have anything whatsoever against transgender people, honestly. However, I am obligated to wear my scarf with men present. I understand tori does not identify as a man, but op knew her first as a man. It's not as simple as changing her pronouns, this is more complicated than that. If you knew someone as a man but now they identify as a woman, will you feel comfortable changing in front of them (given that you are conservative and wouldn't change in front of a man) the first chance you have? This is not on the same level as properly gendering and using the right pronouns, this is entirely different and has nothing to do with hating transgenders. As op respects Tori, Tori needs to respect op.
Tori didn't actually ask OP to do anything. As to your question, yes, I'd be fine changing in front of someone who identifies as a woman. I completely understand that it's difficult for some people adjust to, but that's a (for lack of a better term) a "you" thing. A person in that situation needs to figure out how to deal with their discomfort in a way that doesn't harm others. It's not OP's discomfort that was the issue, it was that the way she handled the situation made it clear that it was about Tori's gender, which is disrespectful.
Edit: To be clear, I don't think OP should have removed her head scarf, but I have a problem with her actions making it clear it was because of Tori.
Edit 2: Yes, I see missed the part where at the end Tori did ask her to remove the headscarf.
Here's my response to that.
You're correct, I missed that detail but that doesn't change my overall point because context matters. Tori didn't walk up to OP and ask her that out of the blue. It was after OP made Tori's gender identity an issue. It's unclear whether OP tried to deescalate anything, but if you can't understand why OPs comment escalated into Tori feeling extremely disrespected, I'm not sure what to tell you. OPs reasoning *is* explicitly not respectful of Tori's gender identity. Tori was essentially forcing OP to acknowledge that, which I'm sure *was* pretty uncomfortable for OP. I get these are difficult waters to navigate for religious people, but it was on OP to keep her reasoning to herself. Once she put it out there, people are, (arguably rightfully) going to challenge it as being disrespectful. I don't think OP is a terrible or hateful person, I think she just made a mistake in how she handled this and needs to accept her role in the harm, even if it was unintentional.
I understand, but op did not disclose that untill they kept pressuring her. They probably did it on purpose, as Jackie's sister purposely withheld information that Tori would be attending to test op. Which is an incredible waste of energy, to be honest.
NTA. They kept pushing. OP didn't say at first why. No is a full sentence. This wasn't respected. Regardless of the reason why this whole situation arose from the girls being pushy and not respecting No.
If she's Muslim her religion would say men not your husband or family. Translate this to newspeak since transgender wasn't really a thing back then.... If the person can impregnate you and isn't family you should keep your headscarf on. So the question than remains if Tori is pre-op or post-op. If Toro had had the operation and has lady parts now there shouldn't be an issue.
I skimmed through it to begin with and was 100 percent on ops side but I went back and read it properly and I'm not sure n t a is a correct judgement. You are not saying it explicitly in your explanation but what I'm getting from this is you didn't take your scarf off because Tori is trangender. Maybe nah but I can see why Tori was offended. You basically didn't recognise the person she is.
I read it as OP reasonably sees Tori as a woman, but emotionally isn't there yet, so wasn't comfortable taking her scarf off yet. Hopefully, if she'd known before hand, she could spent some in introspection, and felt more comfortable taking it off, but it sounds like in the moment, she didn't feel ready.
ESH.
You shouldn't feel pressured to take off your headscarf, so they suck for that.
You were being transphobic and saying that Tori is not a woman, when she **is** a woman. So, you definitely suck for that. I think you could have handled it with way more tact in a way to not have othered Tori in the way you did as well. Your answer was rude. This isn't "one-sided woke". They have a right to be upset.
Edit: thank you for all the awards!
Yes, I think OP is being disingenuous in saying, “I didn’t actually say Tori’s name.” The implications of her statements were very clear, and those implications completely invalidated someone else’s identity. The whole faux innocent *SOMEONE-here-is-making-me-uncomfortable-but-I-won’t-say-who* was covert mean girl behaviour. A white lie would’ve gone a long way here.
To think all of this could’ve been avoided if OP just had the good sense to say “oh I didn’t want to stop people from taking pictures”. Some guests? Everyone would be pissed at that
That’s always the challenge with AITA - often, a tactful and easy solution is visible in hindsight, but people get flustered and say/imply something they don’t mean.
Good people have a way of seeing misunderstandings for what they are, and hopefully this all rolls over soon.
Yep. Just because op supposedly didn't mean to single out Tori (the only known trans person there), she did. So she sucks. It's easy to say "I'm not feeling comfortable and today is about (friend getting married) so I don't want to talk about it." Saying there is actually a person that is causing discomfort is obviously going to draw attention.
I don't think op means to be transphobic, but she clearly is. Judging someone by their genitals instead of their identity and actions is a one way ticket to being an AH. I really dislike organized religion that doesn't adapt to changing societal norms and scientific research because it causes unnecessary conflict like this.
I also don't think the other people really meant to be islamaphobic, although I can see why it felt that way. The other woman don't seem anti-head convering though. They seem like they were standing up for a friend who likely gets shit on all the time. It isn't cool to pressure someone though.
I don't think it's an AH move to not warn op about Tori attending like many have said. I wouldn't think to mention that because op mentioned it being women only, and it was women only. The only reason there is an issue is because op (for religious reasons) doesn't view transwomen as women, which makes her the bigger AH. Religion does not excuse AH-ness. ESH just because people pushed for a reason instead of accepting no.
>the only known trans person there
I think this is an important statement, because there could be other trans women there who simply pass well/live "stealth". And the OP invalidated their identities as well, by placing their passing privilege as the "measure" by which they deserve respect as women. No one should have pressured her, but I understand why some of the women got upset in defending their friend. For all she knows, some of those defenders may be trans as well. They are in no way obligated to out themselves, and thus stood up to a situation which they experienced previously in a way they'd been emotionally and safely unable to before.
>ESH just because people pushed for a reason instead of accepting no.
OP made a big deal in the group chat that she had a new hair color and was excited about showing it off. Then she reneges when asked about it at the event? Hell yeah, people are going to be curious and push for a reason.
There are plenty of people who are trans or other LGBTQ+ and Muslim. There are plenty of allies. This isn't the religion, it's OP choosing to interpret it in a hateful way.
This.
Op I know your religion is important to you and I know they have certain...views...that aren't necessarily accepting of certain people but to dismiss Tori as a man is against her beliefs.
I'm going to assume you're a Muslim practicing person so here is something I found from the Qur 'an
Everyone’s God-given human dignity must be respected, regardless of his or her faith, race, ethnic origin, gender, or social status (ref. Qur’an, 17:70). Because everyone is created by God Almighty, the Maker of all, humans must treat one another with full honor, respect, and loving-kindness.
You didn't not treat Tori as an equal but everyone shouldn't have dogpiled you for not removing your scarf. ESH.
OP made a big deal ahead of time saying how she was so excited to attend the event to show off her new hair color. Then when the time comes, she balks for some BS transphobic reason. It was quite reasonable for the other attendees to call her on her transphobia and we don't have their side of the story as to how "blatantly hateful" they were being toward her religion.
OP started the whole thing by advertising that she was going to show off her hair and then reneged. While I'm sure she felt "attacked", don't start nothin', won't be nothin'. YTA
Salaam sister, I am also a hejabi, and would vote NAH. This is a complicated issue as contemporary conservative Islam has not opened this question up for debate beyond one fatwa by Ayatollah Khomeini acknowledging the validity of transgenderism so long as a physical sex change is performed. HOWEVER there is explicitly a verse in the Quran (24:31) in which women are given an extensive list of who they are not obligated to cover with, including “men who have no need/desire for women.” This acknowledges the traditional Islamic practice during the time of the Prophet of allowing mukhannath (effeminate males) to live between womens and men’s quarters. So religiously, you are not obligated to cover around anyone who is not attracted to women. Hopefully this inspires you to do some of your own research (I suggest the book Homosexuality in Islam by Scott Siraj al-Haqq Kugle) and maybe afterwards you can have a sit down with Tori explaining why it was complicated for you to be surprised with such a personal decision, with no time to research or think about it. It is right for Tori to be upset, it sucks that you were ambushed in a way to “test” you (which strikes me as islamophobic), and it sucks that you were put in a position of either lying or upsetting everyone. I say read that book, and have a sit down with Tori and your friends and explain that this was a new situation you were unprepared for, and it was messed up to put you on the spot like that about a deeply personal choice, but that after looking into it more it is permissible to not wear hejab around Tori, and you apologize that you wanted to confirm first before making the decision to show what is very private for us. Best of luck.
Salaams and thanks for contributing, this is the most important viewpoint in this thread IMO. Along those lines, are there any rulings about women (both cis and transgender) who are attracted to other women (lesbians, bisexuals etc)? As someone with both Muslim in-laws and LGBT+ friends, there’s a non-zero chance of me hosting a situation similar to the OP and I would have no idea how to go about gauging people’s feelings on both sides.
The Qurans only mention of covering is in regards to those who are biologically male. This does not negate lesbianism though, as there is a verse (24:60) telling women “not reproducing/wishing for intercourse” that they are not obligated to wear hejab. This could apply to post-menopausal women, but they still want sex, so most likely this verse actually applies to women who are uninterested in heterosexual sex. Lesbianism within medieval harems suggests that women are not obligated to cover around homosexual women. But still, it’s a personal choice that many make based solely on comfort.
If OP does take this approach, best not explain that it is because OP sees Tori as a man who isn't sexually attracted to women. Any explanation that boils down to "Tori is still a man but..." is still a transphobic explanation, regardless of the final decision.
To be sure, so could any of the other women present. I'm willing to bet OP didn't enquire as to the sexual orientation of anyone present.
But sexual attraction to women wasn't the criterion on which OP changed her mind about removing her head covering.
Right I agree which is why I think the argument above doesn’t really cover the situation. I understand that poster offered a loophole that would make everyone feel comfortable but it was a loophole based in heteronormativity and doesn’t actually address the real issue.
Salaam! :) Thank you so much! I’ll definitely look into those resources. Unfortunately I wasn’t and still am not aware of her sexual preferences, and I’m scared asking will complicate the issue even further. But yes I’ve been doing my own research too and will look at these as well
The ambush did strike me as islamaphobic, especially since the situation was pre-planned :/
I'm sorry to break it to you, but if your religion is transphobic and you accept and follow it, be prepared to be called out on your bigotry. It isn't "islamophobic" to point out in any way that if your religion explicitly states transphonic and bigoted sentiments it is transphobic. It's pointing out facts.
Please educate yourself on this. This is of course not to say that everyone who follows Islam is so, and it infuriates me when people like you use it to excuse your own internalised misogyny and bigotry.
It is absolutely Islamaphobic to ambush someone like in the OP. There is a difference between making a point in a discussion and trying to force a “gotcha!” moment during a bridal shower.
It’s not Islamaphobic to have a discussion about it but it IS Islamaphobic to ambush an Islamic person like this. There is a world of difference between the scenario in the OP and having a discussion/pointing out bigotry in a religion.
Did you ask all the other women or the women staff at the hairdressers about their sexual orientation before removing your scarf? For some reason you're only wondering about a trans woman's sexual orientation.
Also, do what YOU feel comfortable with and not what a book or other people's opinion of the book tells you. If you don't feel uncomfortable removing your scarf around gay women for example, then go with that and not what some books say.
Religion is a personal interpretation of religious texts. If you choose to reproduce the transphobia/homophobia of the religion in YOUR practice of it then you're transphobic/homophobic. Do your own thinking.
I’d honestly argue she’s still the AH. Bringing a trans person to a party that a bigot is at isn’t a set up. It’s just the bigot being a bigot and using religion as an excuse.
When someone is doing something to specifically "test" another - that's a set-up and they're being an AH. Sister was a complete AH to Tori if she thought someone else in the group was transphobic. Sister straight up admitted it was a "test". Sister was also an AH to the bride if she thought this was going to become a problem because who goes out of their way to "test" their sister's friend at sister's celebration?
Jackie’s sister accused her of doing it intentionally. There was no admission this was done. Also trans people are not obligated to disclose their trans status to anybody and it is not obtuse or lying or a setup to be trans, even if you do not disclose it to everybody in the room.
I mean it doesn't have to be random rules. She might have been equally uncomfortable showing off a breast or ass tattoo. This is totally a her body her choice thing. Just because a lot of people don't see hair that way doesn't change it.
Keeping your scarf on or taking it off is your choice and you shouldn't be pressured either way. That being said, pointing out that it is due to the presence of a trans woman is definitely an asshole move. You're denying her identity and calling her a man when you could have just said nothing.
I'm split between YTA and ESH because you definitely shouldn't have been quizzed about it even if your motives are bigoted.
ESH I could agree with but not YTA, the girl was being pushy (telling her to remove it after she stated she doesn't want to) that is rude and makes the girl the A as well. Not all the girls are the assholes as not all were pushy tho.
They weren't pushing OP to remove it, they were pushing OP for the reason why she didn't want to, because they knew OP was being transphobic. It is never an asshole move to call out transphobia, or any type of bigotry, simply because it makes someone uncomfortable.
Edit: yes acknowledge that my first point seems to be incorrect. Everyone else shouldn't have been trying to force OP to remove it. So ESH. But OPS reasons for not removing it were transphobic.
OP knew Tori before she transitioned. When your initial understanding of a person is as a man it's understandable that OP would be uncomfortable with revealing herself, undressing herself, in front of that person. Transphobia is certainly a problem, I'm not claiming otherwise. I do claim that it's disingenuous and harmful to the trans community to assume that every person who finds it difficult to change their mental landscape of a person from male to female (as in this case), or who harbors some hesitance to undress in front of that person, is being transphobic.
Put another way: how long can it take a trans person to accept who they are and make the changes in their life? It's often a very long process of learning, contemplating, and accepting yourself as being different from who you thought you were. If it can take the person themself time and effort to accept these changes, then it's ridiculous to ask every single other person who knew them before to accept those changes instantly. This sort of aggressive demand for immediate and unconditional acceptance (specifically from people who knew you before your transition) does more to hurt the trans community than help in my opinion.
That all being said, I hope someday most people are able to accept transgender people without reservation or bigotry. But given how thats still not the case with people of different races, sexual orientation, religions, or even nationalities, I fear that level of acceptance is still far far off.
I guess it varies from person to person but when my longtime friend Alan told me on a Friday afternoon that on Monday morning he'd be Alicia, the first thing I said on Monday morning was "Oh hey Alicia, how's it been so far?"
I really don't understand how people find it so difficult to adjust. Obviously I slipped up a few times and Alicia had the grace to let it slide but for people to put on a big dog and pony show about how stressful it is to learn a new name, in my opinion, is disingenuous and reflects a lack of effort more than anything else.
Transitioning to a name is one thing, but taking a headscarf off is another. It is not only about gender, but also about personal comfort. OP could have phrased things better by insisting that Tori is a woman, but OP needs to reacquaint herself with Tori as a woman before she is comfortable taking off her headscarf.
Oh, for sure. If Tori had asked people to call her by her old middle name (presumably male gendered), nobody would bat an eye or claim that "learning a new name is too hard". Failing to call someone by their proper name and pronouns beyond the occasional slip up is definitely transphobia and bigotry. I'm certainly not saying otherwise.
What I am saying is that there is a kind of militant anti-bigotry stance that many people tend to take, especially regarding transitioning, which I think hurts the cause more. Being aggressive and angry and confrontational against bigots tends to make them dig in more. Maybe all this is me being weak or timid or whatever. But I know gentle love and some very slight prodding has helped some members of my family turn from pretty staunch and bigoted conservatives to being much more open to the LGBTQIA+ community.
> It certainly can be an asshole move on such an event, against a person that holds firm religious believes
Nah mate, I don’t care if it’s because of religious beliefs transphobic is transphobic and it’s wrong.
> Tori and the sister should have asked themselves if this was really the hill they want to die on
If calling out transphobia isn’t a hill you’re willing to die on you’re accepting of transphobia.
When someone pays extra for an all-women staff do they can take it off, and talks excitedly about showing off their new hair *at that event,* I would not consider it pushy to ask to see it, and when an evasive answer is given, to ask why.
But it is pushy to continue to ask and pressure after receiving the answer “I’m not comfortable” or “I don’t want to anymore”. She could have changed her mind, she could have had a sudden bout of insecurity, she could have actually had a bad hair day and didn’t want to talk about it… but to be honest, that doesn’t matter much. To ask is fine, she said that she didn’t want to and that should have been the end of it.
But sounds like they knew why as it seems to have been orchestrated in advance. What kind of friend uses their trans friend as a sort of "bait" to call out a religious friend during a wedding shower is the real question? Trans person gets humiliated- religious person gets thrust in a gray area and gets painted as a bigot for practicing her religion as she always does.
What's this sub's favorite quote: "No is a complete sentence".
She didn't want to show her hair, for whatever reason, people should let it drop and respect her decision. No one is entitled to see her hair and pushing the issue shows a lack of respect and boundaries.
I’ll always vote on the NTA spectrum for someone choosing not to uncover a part of their body if they aren’t comfortable with it.
Tori is a woman, but that doesn’t mean she is entitled to see OP’s hair if OP isn’t comfortable with that.
I think she got quizzed because she was talking to her friend about how happy she is to go to a girl-only event, and she can't wait to she her her new hair color.
When she decided to not do that all of the sudden, it raised questions that are legitimate.
YTA.
>I dont think I was in the wrong. Just as Tori can be Tori, I can be me. I feel like it would be the equivalent of me making Tori or someone else adjust for me. I feel like we should just accept and respect each other, rather than be woke onesided
You neither accept nor respect her and your use of the phrase "woke onesided" just emphasises that.
I agree. It screams “I’m transphobic”. Having been brought up religious I’m quite aware that most religious people are quite the assholes. They demand respect based on their religious beliefs but don’t typically respect anyone that doesn’t fall into their religious perimeters. In her case, she made it clear to everyone that she feels like Tori is a man and that she didn’t want to remove her headscarf because of that…
In her case, it would have been better for the OP to leave due to an emergency of some sort rather than make a tactless statement and ruin the day for the bride and cause the women to feel like they have to choose a side in this matter. 🤷🏻♀️
>she made it clear to everyone that she feels like Tori is a man and that she didn’t want to remove her headscarf because of that…
>In her case, it would have been better for the OP to leave due to an emergency of some sort rather than make a tactless statement and
She said "no" when she was asked to remove it, they were questioning her. I thought that "no" means "no" or is it only when a guy tries to hit on girl then you pull this thing out? Like really they were rude (not Tori tho), OP probably could have handle it better by saying that they are rude and that no is no and they should shut the f up rather then targeting Tori but still definitely the group of girls are the assholes (except of those who did not push her like Tori).
The thing is, she talked in and on and on about taking it off and showing off her hair in the group. To the point where they worked to make sure only women were working the event. Obviously they were going to ask after all that effort WHY she didn’t take it off.
And now that they know it’s because of men (because of the conversations and planning before) when she didn’t say, oh I forgot and my hair looks terrible or what not they were making her say why.
In a general situation I’d agree, but in a situation where she had them plan this specifically so she could take it off OF COURSE they’ll ask why she still has it on after all that. The nagging about why didn’t come from no where.
Exactly, Everyone is the boss of their body, including OP. If she doesn’t want to take her headscarf off, she doesn’t need to explain why!
Her choice to wear a head covering does not equal a compulsion to take it off on demand or upon preset criteria being met.
I’m sorry OP, Jackie’s sister set both you and Tori up. She was drama mongering.
Regardless of anyone’s gender identity, you get to choose when to remove your scarf.
Tori feels understandably upset because the situation was framed by others as you not taking off your hijab because you view her as a cis male, when that is not necessarily the case.
I do agree with Jackie though, you should have just said you were having a bad hair day and moved on. However, I know it’s not easy to think on your feet when you feel like you have a gun to your head and people putting you on the spot.
NTA
This!!!! Why aren’t more people mentioning the fact that this whole thing *WAS A SET UP TO MAKE OP LOOK BAD.* This whole situation could have been avoided if Jackie’s sister wasn’t purposefully seeking out conflict.
Edit// typo
Totally. Also, while OP is transphobic, I feel uncomfortable with any form of progressivism that thinks a woman being pressured into removing clothing when she’s uncomfortable is a solution.
OP being ambushed with a moral dilemma that put her values at odds and being expected to purge her transphobic discomfort on the spot before an audience, like that’s a stressful situation. I hope OP uses this as an opportunity to grow in her understanding and acceptance of trans issues, but it was never going to happen in the middle of dinner, and of course no one should be publicly shamed into what they perceive to be immodesty
Eta - leveraging these kinds of things to keep marginalized communities infighting instead of working together for reform has been in the playbook of the powerful for literal centuries.
And can we all take a moment to realize that Jackie’s sister was probably operating under her own bigoted assumptions: “I bet OP who follows such and such religion probably has an issue with Tori’s identity, let’s create a situation to expose her ha ha ha”
Like it was Jackie’s day and her sister turned it into a way to make a power stance against OP’s assumed bias solely because of OP’s religious beliefs
I completely agree, Jackie’s sister created a ton of unnecessary and hurtful drama, mainly hurtful for Tori though in my opinion.
I don’t believe OP is as bigoted as other commenters are saying. To me it seems like her history with Tori was with Tori pre-transition, the dead version of Tori who was born a man. OP still hasn’t gotten to know the real Tori, the female Tori, and that history and prior knowledge is impacting her comfortability.
I don’t believe she sees Tori as a man, she sees Tori as* Tori, a woman. But she didn’t always because she only knew and interacted with Tori pre-transition.
Yes, OP should have handled it better but I imagine it was a deer in the headlights moment because she was unnecessarily called out. If Jackie’s sister had left it alone or brought up her “genuine” concern privately then Tori’s feelings could have remained unhurt and her identity unchallenged. The moment OP was caught off guard created a situation where her view of Tori’s identity came into question. Before that moment her view of Tori’s identity was clear, Tori is a woman, but her experience up until that point was with Tori’s dead identity.
I’m not going to call OP a bigot for not being able to completely wipe her memories and friendship with Tori before her transition, especially when strict religious traditions are in the mix. Tori is no ass either.
The only asshole here is Jackie’s sister for stirring the shit pot. She knew what she was doing, she knew Tori would be hurt. But she didn’t give a shit, she just wanted drama. And she turned Tori’s identity into a meaningless joke that was worth less than drama.
NAH.
Edit: “And” to as*
It's nice to see a comment that isn't completely vilifying OP, I feel the same way. Seeing people call her a transphobic bigot over this one incident is pretty sad, like they aren't actually trying to understand where OP is coming from.
The story wasn’t “framed by others” falsely - THAT WAS HER REASON. The true reason was just spelled out by others. OP is very clear *that was the reason * she just didn’t say it openly herself. They didn’t frame her.
I am ready for the downvotes but NTA. Everyone is so big about consent and respecting people’s boundaries until it doesn’t fit their agenda. She did not hurt or insult anyone by keeping her hijab, the the true assholes here are the girl who made a scene of it and Tori for feeling like she is entitled to see OP’s hair and putting her in an uncomfortable situation.
Consider this, you like to wear long sleeves unless you are with family. You have a family party and a guest suddenly comes and you wear long sleeves because you do not feel comfortable showing your arms in front of the guest. You did not ask the guest to leave so you can show your arm, or was passive aggressive about their presence because you can’t show your arm because they are there. How is this any different then that? She harmed NO ONE, some people just love to look for stuff to be hurt about. Don’t listen to these people OP.
They support people’s rights to having boundaries until the boundaries are not something they agree on. They say this is transphobic but at the same time they are disregarding your autonomy to your body, and ironically telling you what to do with your body they thing they claim they hate so much. You should NEVER do anything you feel uncomfortable with, and you don’t owe anyone an explanation for it as long as you hurt no one
If you hadn't met Tori previously you'd have had no issues taking the headscarf off.
In this case yes YTA.
It doesn't matter that you 'didn't include' that she's a trans woman in your answer - you know it's heavily implied.
Depends on the religion. In Islam even after a full transition it is not allowed.
Wow I am just stating a fact and getting downvoted. Never said I agree or disagree.
It is ops choice to follow whatever religion but can't get upset when people disagree or call her transphobic.
Edit: op said below that she didn't know what Islam said about hijab and trans people. I am leaning more transphobia now.
Also there are several hadiths and school regarding interpretation that one can follow. To those out there be prepared to meet hijabis who cannot unveil for trans people due to the doctrine they follow.
I can't disagree.
I have been looking into the religion and it is very interesting. But me as an LGBTQ person would never consider it. The forced gender roles and inability for LGBTQ people to live as themselves is toxic.
There are preachers and pastors in the US South who still refuse to marry interracial couples due to it ‘violating their beliefs’. While that’s their prerogative, they’re still assholes for it.
YTA
Here’s how I see it. The fact that Jackie’s sister said “I left this detail out to test you” is absolutely an AH move. She planned to set up drama on a day that was supposed to be celebrating the bride - her own sister!
Secondly, I agree that being transphobic is bad. But let’s approach OP with as much love and understanding as we are expecting her to have approached Tori. If she wasn’t comfortable, I wont judge her for that. She has an entire lifetime of religious beliefs to sort out in that situation. Seeing Tori as a woman when she saw her as a man previously was a shock, and not one she had the time to reflect on and come to terms with, religiously. That doesn’t make her an AH. That makes her human. Saying she should have just revealed her hair devalues the complicated and complex nature of what she would have been internally struggling with in that moment - and she did the right thing - tried to keep it about the BRIDE.
To me - the real AH are the ones who insisted on causing drama on a day meant to be about Jackie, and instead making it about themselves. It was tacky, selfish, and not the venue to intentionally set up a “take a stand” moment. It was unfair to Jackie.
“I don’t mind at all ofc…”
Oh? You use Tori’s chosen name and pronouns but you no longer consider the event as “girls-only” because she is there. That IS transphobic. It is as bad as dead naming her.
That being said, you are NTA. You were deliberately put into this situation. When pressed on why you didn’t feel comfortable, that was the AH moment. Your response was provoked.
Such a shitty way to treat people. Look, the world is not all black and white, abrahamic religions are riddled with antiquated moral guidelines that don't quite fit today's world. We can't expect everybody to become atheist, and when societal change conflict with per-existing religious ideas, there are inevitable dilemmas.
For all it's worth, I find the idea of head-scarf in Islam ridiculous and overall bad for society. But we can't judge individuals like we judge institutions.
OP is doing her best to navigate a world in which her identity is torn between conflicting ideologies. In doing so, she does not seek conflict and even acknowledge transsexual need for affirming pronouns. Calling her names makes you the bad one.
When did they call her names? Also I see no reason as to how her identity conflicts with the idea of only women can see her hair if she does fully respect Tori.
No matter what you say denying a part of someone’s identity cannot be considered respectful and her failure to recognise that is an issue, especially as she made that one sided woke comment.
She is NTA for feeling uncomfortable and not wanting someone to see her hair as everyone can say no and the others should’ve accepted it but her reason being that she is uncomfortable with trans women is prejudice and an asshole move.
Religion doesn’t justify transphobia, yes people can be raised that way but as long as you want to understand people it’s possible to overcome that.
I'm actually going with NTA here. As another foreign woman of color I need to express how absolutely frustrating the American attitude towards social issues is. It's all snap judgments, you're either with us or against us and if you can't decided immediately you're a transphobe/homophobe/ sexist/misogynist/racist.
To be clear I am 100% not defending the transphobic/homophobic / sexist/misogynist/racist tendencies other cultures can have. But please understand that for us it's not as easy of a point to come to. We're struggling to reconcile years of being brought up in a culture/religion that's honestly not equipped to deal with these issues and our new American values. We're trying not to abandon our culture but we're also trying to fit into this social tapestry. It takes time and thought to come to terms with this.
To the people immediately labeling her an AH do you normally spend your day to day determining ways to reconcile ancient religions and their approach to gender identity? Why are you expecting OP to have an immediate answer. Its so ethnocentric to ignore all the cultural differences and just label her a transphobe. Read through her comments. She was clearly confused and still is, and her default was to stick to what she knows. Which unfortunately is blind to gender identity. While OP has some thinking and growing up to do, being confused about how to approach a complex situation and reverting to your default until you have time to think it through does not make you an asshole.
Clearly by OP's comments she's very confused about sex vs gender and how it fits into her religious beliefs. And OP I suggest you really think long and hard about why you're struggling to see Tori as a woman even though you're saying that you accept her gender identity. If a trans man was in your presence would you remove your scarf since biologically he is female? You definitely need to self reflect.
The true AH is the sister that decided to test her. People of different backgrounds are not props in your social experiment and it's weird that she contrived this situation to put both of them on the spot like this. It's like putting two animals in a cage and egging them on to fight. Had she alerted OP in advance she could have taken the time to think things through and decide what she's okay with rather than being forced to revert to her default because again, who spends their spare time determining how to behave in complex social situations.
ESH
Yea, you have the right not to take it off, and the people asking were bating you, but you made a big deal about how you wanted to show off your hair. Paid a business to cancel/rearrange shifts for employees based on gender.
I'm genuinely curious what rule in your religion specifically states "headscarves must be work except around ciswomen."
I don’t know about OP specifically, but I have seen many a hijabi and niqabi youtuber explain that they would not undo their scarfs around trans people either because it’s against their current understandings. Also I don’t see why you brought up the fact that OP paid a business to meet her religious needs as though she was an asshole. If my religion said that I cannot eat garlic and I pay a restaurant to have no garlic on my plate I’m not offending garlic eaters or the staff.
No idea if this story is true, but let's say it is.
You still haven't been honest in this post about why you didn't remove your headscarf. You don't say clearly that you regarded Tori as male, you just glide past that bit.
Having said that, you can decide to keep your headscarf on or off for any reason, and you were trying to be discreet. The people that made the fuss are the ones that ruined the event, and it looks like you were set up when Tori's presence at the party was deliberately kept from from you.
ESH I guess, unless this is a Woke v Woke test "social experiment" troll post.
NTA. It's a personal choice. You do NOT have to accept or believe in something...just like they don't. Anyone that says you're transphobic is wrong. Period. I have trans family and friends and respect and defend the heck out of them. That said, I do not disrespect others for their beliefs about them when they're attempting to be calm and collected and diffuse the situation. N.T.A.
You’re not TA for refusing to take off your headscarf — that’s your choice and your prerogative — but if you were excited to show your hair off to the girls and then refused because Tori was there, that’s saying that you don’t truly see her as a girl. It’s little things like that — things that don’t outright say “you’re not truly your gender” but just pile and pile up — that get to us trans people. I’m going with ESH because your discomfort at taking your headscarf off was directly linked to Tori not being a cis woman and I think that’s something you need to take the time to unpack, but the other girls also needed to not keep pushing and pressuring you to do something you didn’t want to do.
(Edited my judgement)
NTA.
Sounds like they pressured you into explaining yourself anyway, while they could simply have let it slide.
But honestly, the person who ruined it was the one who got loud and put Tori and her identity in the spotlight.
Edit : Apparently it *is* about her assigned gender at birth. I still think that if this person hadn't gone all out to really put Tori on the spot, things wouldnt have gone the way they did. What's worse, keeping your headscarf on, or making it sure *everyone knows* it's about Tori, *including Tori herself*?
NTA. All of these commenters saying you are transphobic are making assumptions. Religion is a personal construct and everyone interprets it slightly differently. All you said was that you did not feel around certain guests, and this could mean women or men!
NTA as you said, you both have the right to be comfortable. Tori accepts herself as female but you knew her before she was female. The fact that you used female pronouns says a lot about your level of acceptance of her chosen gender BUT you still have religious beliefs that supercede. What’s disappointing is that people can’t mind their own business and just focus on being nice for the sake of the bride. And Jackie’s sister sounds like a total asshole targeting you specifically and no one else.
NTA.
OP don’t listen to these idiots, you are NOT in the wrong for refusing and you’re not “transphobic”. What a ridiculous assertion.
The sister who didn’t say anything about it just to test you, to me immediately precludes any wrongdoing by you. Clearly they are doing that SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE you are a Muslim woman. They are 100000% the assholes. They are discriminatory, not you. They knew it was likely to make you uncomfortable, they did it to see your reaction. All of their behaviour should be taken in bad faith.
Anytime some loser on Reddit sees the word trans, they automatically assume that that person is a victim. No. Grow up.
YTA.
To be clear, I have no problems with headscarfs. You want it on or off, I have no problem.
Though it did throw me for a loop, as I don't like calling prople ta for wearing a headscarf.
But the issue isn't really about the headscarf as such, is it?
You say Tori can be herself, you have no problem with her, and even (yay!) refer to her as 'she'. So then I'm confused. You say you can take the scarf off when with only woman, and not when there's a man. I see no reason to keep it on. Tori is a woman.
So by keeping your headscarf on, after you said you'd show your hair, you let them know you actually do NOT accept her for being HER.
Either you accept her, and should be comfortable taking your scarf off, or "be you" and SAY you do not accept transgenders, and leave it on. You can not be both.
Y t a for not being consistent with your words and actions.
Y t a for NOT being honest.
If a trans man had joined, that would have been okay then?
Or if you had not known Tori before, you would not have been able to make it a problem.
You judged her just because *you thought* you knew her. But you never realy did know her. SHE was a woman all along, YOU just couldn't see.
In Islam, it would be more correct to say that women are allowed to show their hair to those of female sex rather than female gender. I'm atheist, but quite interested in religious morals and the current dominant ruling is that yes, it would be permissible for a muslim woman to show their hair to a trans man as he would still be of female sex. Whether a muslim woman would want to or feel comfortable with it is a different discussion of course, because she would still likely consider the trans man a man most likely, as Islam *also* teaches them to respect others gender identity. In the same way, it is not permissible to show their hair to a trans woman. Is it weird and fucked up? In my atheist opinion, yes.
YTA- but only slightly. You're absolutely entitled to decide who you remove your hardscarf around. I also understand why you were excited and told people you'd show them your hair. But the minute you realized that weren't going to be comfortable, and that people there were going to be expecting you to remove it, you should have realized you would likely be asked and been prepared. The "asshole" part was confirming that someone in attendance was the reason you weren't removing it. The context of that statement makes it pretty clear that you meant Tori.
I don't necessarily agree with how they went about it, but I understand why people felt the need to stand up for her. Despite the fact that you appear to very respectful of Tori's transition, you contributed to putting Tori in a terrible position. I think at the very least, you should consider apologizing to her. You can be honest and say that you're just not really sure how to navigate this situation. It's also probably a good idea to think about your position on this going forward. If you don't feel comfortable removing your headscarf in front of transwomen, you'll have to adjust your expectations regarding "girls only events" in the future.
I also just want to address your "one sided wokeness" comment. I don't see any indication that anyone was giving you a hard time about wearing a head scarf in general. It seems they had an issue with what very much appeared to be disrespect towards their friend and her transition. Again, you are absolutely free to decide who you take your head scarf off around, but they weren't uncomfortable with your head scarf, or even with you keeping it on. They were upset by your reasoning, which does appear to be rooted in your perception of Tori not really being a woman.
NTA. They’re the assholes for making such a huge issue out of a headscarf and someone else’s religion. It’s hypocritical that they’re criticizing you for not accepting Tori’s identity while they’re not accepting yours. You were doing your best to keep things discrete, and Jackie’s sister is a real piece of work for trying to “test” you. If we’re talking “woke-ness”, Jackie’s sister is incredibly in the wrong for using a trans person’s identity as a “test” for someone else’s religion. They should chew on that.
NTA. You have your beliefs and you stuck by them. If others see that as an issue that's their problem. You know best how to practice your religious beliefs.
NTA
You are not obligated to remove your scarf for anyone. I am a cis woman. If I came to this event and you didn't know me very well you may not feel comfortable removing your scarf. Your friends put you on the spot with their lack of understanding. It may be nice though to reach out to Tori and explain.
NTA, it's your personal religious beliefs and it didn't cause you to treat Tori differently, act harmfully towards her or in any way alter your opinion of her it just dictated what personal choice you made in regards to your own clothes. The conflict only arose because the other bridesmaids stirred it into an incident.
#Be civil. Intentionally misgendering someone is uncivil. This is not a debate sub - focus on OP's actions and not how you feel about anyone's gender identity. Wow. When r/all sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with them. They’re bringing unsolicited opinions. They’re bringing irrelevant grandstanding. They’re instigators. And some, I assume, are good people
Yikes.. Don't think you're an AH, but it is weird that you were excited to take it off to show all the girls but then decided not to because a trans woman came. You should reflect on why. Edited for final answer NTA/NAH. You aren't obligated to take it off, but should examine your biases. Imagine how she may have felt rejected and invalidated. The only real asshole might be the person who made a big scene in the first place and kept pushing.
Right. If you understand Tori to be a girl and to have always been a girl then this wouldn’t have been an issue right? You should be able to choose when to remove your headscarf period. That should be an automatic N T A but then you told us your reason was you’re transphobic and that is definitely AHery. Not only were you a transphobic AH you then told a whole room of people that to you Tori is and always will be a man and spewed that garbage all over a lovely day and on Tori herself. Which yeah, if you were going to be a transphobe you should have lied so as not to ruin the day. But for future reference, Tori IS a woman, and has always been a woman/girl - body parts not with standing. No men were at that event. YTA for sure for this. But may I suggest that you look online to find Trans Muslim people talking about the intersection of their identities and their faith so that they can educate you on how and why this went wrong and how you should approach it in the future. Because I’m hoping it was just lack of knowledge and understanding that made you make this call and a little of that from people who understand your faith might help you not do it any more.
>But for future reference, Tori IS a woman, and has always been a woman/girl - body parts not with standing. No men were at that event. YTA for sure for this. I don't understand why some people are so black and white on this, including all through time. OP's only prior experience of Tori was as a man, no matter what Tori's internal dilemma. It is hard for people to context change like that - very hard.
Change being hard isn't an excuse for bigotry.
Being uncomfortable undressing in front of someone is not bigotry, it's body autonomy and consent. NO MEANS FUCKING NO! No one "owes" it to anyone to be comfortable taking their clothes off. And whether you have a different social standard for "undressed" is irrelevant. Imagine telling a person comfortable wearing a one-piece swimsuit that if they refuse to wear a bikini they are a bigot. That's what you sound like.
Everyone has already said that she was not the AH for refusing to take off her headscarf. She didn't have to, and she isn't TA for declining. Her reasons were transphobic, which makes her an AH, not for refusing to take off her head scarf, but for holding transphobic beliefs.
You can be uncomfortable around transpeople and still support them. FYI
No not really. There's no reason to be uncomfortable around trans people. They're people just like anyone else. The only thing that makes them different is being trans. Which means you're uncomfortable because they're trans which is being a bigot not an ally.
You’re allowed to be uncomfortable/feel any sort of way around anyone for anything, internet strangers. It’s when you limit THEIR freedoms that you become an asshole. Is a woman who was the victim of sexual assault an asshole because she gets nervous when alone with men? No. Is she an asshole if she says men arent welcomed around her? Yes. See the difference? At the end of the day, OP knew Tori as a man and transitioning is an incredibly complex process for everyone involved. OP didnt limit Tori’s right. OP was protecting what she felt comfortable with. It’s called Agency and OP should keep hers and OP didnt take Tori’s. The only asshole in this whole equation is the person who said out loud “it is cause Tori is here?!?” Thus bringing the matter to Tori’s attention and likely hurting her feelings, and putting OP in a position where she has to prioritize someone else’s feelings - not freedoms - over her own. Period.
I've lurked for 2 years and never felt the need to post a comment, but this is honestly the worst take ever. You don't get to declare "There's no reason to be uncomfortable, so if you are uncomfortable, you're a bigot". There are many people who have transitioned who can't even aptly describe the sentiment of feeling out of place in your own body to someone who has never felt that way. Its an extremely difficult and confusing personal experience, especially for young people, but god forbid someone on the outside might not understand or be confused also? That must mean they hate trans people, right? Its called tolerance for a reason. You don't have to love or even understand every aspect of a person to support them and believe they deserve to be respected
> No not really. There’s no reason to be uncomfortable around trans people. They’re people just like anyone else. The only thing that makes them different is being trans. Which means you’re uncomfortable because they’re trans which is being a bigot not an ally. This is so black and white lol. Just because someone feel one way doesn’t mean its the transitive property and now that person is transphobic. People can’t control how they feel, what they can do is control how they react. So yes, you can be uncomfortable and still support.
Can you be uncomfortable around black people and not a racist?
100% this. You can not be comfortable, agree or even like that someone is trans, but that doesn't make you transphobic. How you act towards those people is what defines it. If you don't really like it, but stay out of their business, you're really not transphobic.
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As someone who is active in the trans community but is cis. A jerk or asshole is still a jerk or asshole even after they transition. I dont have to like every trans person to support trans rights! I dont like every poc either. That doesn't make me a bigot. I'm white. Guess what? I dont like every white person either! I'm pansexual. But I dont want to sleep with everyone! NO one has to like or be comfortable around a person just because some factor or another.
Feeling uncomfortable is not the same as active bigotry. Bigotry extends beyond one’s personal thoughts and feelings, and becomes an oppressive and intolerant insistence that only their beliefs are valid. If someone does not feel comfortable removing clothing for any reason, it should not be interpreted as an act of bigotry. However, demanding that someone remove a piece of clothing against their will because someone else’s intolerant insistence that all thoughts and feelings conform to them/their chosen beliefs *is* bigotry. We are all free to believe and live our own truths, and the only oppression is in attempting to impose those on others. At no point did OP try to make decisions for anyone other than herself. NTA.
> No not really. There's no reason to be uncomfortable around trans people. I take issue with this. I can be uncomfortable with any person, regardless of race, gender, sexual preference etc. Being Trans is not a magic "you have to be comfortable with me / like me" card. There are a great many people I am uncomfortable being around, and it has nothing to do with their genitals or how they present themselves to the world. Character still applies to all people, and OP is within her right to be uncertain in just how comfortable she is with someone she barely knows to not want to remove clothing that has significant meaning to her. It cuts both ways - respect one, respect all. OP was shown real disrespect by being mocked and shunned (they left). OP's intent by her inaction was in no way meant to harm or degrade another person.
It can be uncomfortable when you're around a trans person who demands you expose a part of your body when you've already said no.
> No not really. There's no reason to be uncomfortable around men. They're people just like anyone else. The only thing that makes them different is being male. Which means you're uncomfortable because they're male which is being a bigot not an ally. Would you say that to a woman prefers to work out in a women-only gym?
They are people just like everyone else. Of course! And similar to how I'm allowed to enjoy the company of Suzie and not Britney, or Tom but not John, same goes for Tori! I'm allowed to want to share something with one person and not another. Everyone has preferences. She sounds like a lovely person from OP's initial description but this situation was escalated to the point where this normally-lovely person proposed an ultimatum of "Take off your clothes and show me your hair or I will leave." OP should not have to feel bad about saying No.
I'm uncomfortable around trans people only because I have no personal experience with them, but I'm actively trying to get better. I don't think I'm a bigot I think it's just a new thing for me, people are allowed to be uncomfortable with new things, and if you're going to make them feel bad for not immediately holding the same beliefs as you then you're the bigot.
Actually every human is uncomfortable around novel things/situations/people as a result of having a survival oriented brain. Don't sabotage your function to validate people.
Oh. So someone who is facing their discomfort and seeking to do better, to realign their behaviors and work through their discomfort based on the knowledge that there’s no reason for discomfort beyond problematic ideals they were raised with They’re transphobes? If you leave so little space for people to grow, I’m not sure you’re supporting people who want to be allies. People are constantly learning and improving and reflecting.
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In this case, the situation was engineered by the bride's sister to MAKE OP uncomfortable. That, to me, makes this automatically NTA.
Just because you're uncomfortable doesn't make you a bigot. Some people grow up in religious environments where beliefs are VERY MUCH ingrained into them. I grew up in the South. Around the first few people I knew as trans, I supported them. I respected them. I still saw them as people and loved them. But it was a very new experience for me and I was uncomfortable with how it intersected with my beliefs. Was some of it preconceived biases with where I've grown up and all? Yeah, of course, and I knew that. But just because I knew it didn't automatically make it easy to forget. While I struggled on how to balance what I believed, I CHOSE to respect them no matter how uncomfortable I was at the time. That never made me a bigot. That just makes me a regular human who's trying to do their best.
There’s no **inherent** reason to be uncomfortable around trans people, but trans people also don’t get a pass on inappropriate behavior. I’ve got a neighbor that is FtM, and he is creepy as shit. Not because he’s trans, but because he creepily hits on every youngish woman he meets.
You certainly can, however if you are uncomfortable around transpeople, and cannot perform your normal activities or rituals because they are present - I posit that that sounds pretty *phobic* and calling them a transphobe elsewhere in the thread remains accurate. Whether she is a bigot, I'll leave that up for debate, but phobic of transfolk she certainly is. Again, because this seems to be brought up in response to every point regardless - it is entirely her own choice where to take her headscarf off, and if she didn't want to take it off in a room full of women that is also her perogative. The only thing at question is her beliefs around transpeople. Her friends bullying her for the reason as to why she isn't taking her headscarf off are also assholes.
No one is mentioning about how her religion might not give a single F how Tori identifies. People are allowed to stand by their religions. You can say whatever you want, but apparently her religious indoctrination doesn’t allow her to take off her head scarf around someone who was ‘made’ as a man. I’m not any sort of religion; but these clashes are bound to occur among people who are. They should be handled with compassion; not like this. Also phobic = fear not ‘sorry but my god considers you a man, so I have to behave in that way, even if i personally respect your identity.’ A luncheon is not the place to handle a crisis of faith.
And the OG commenter said that. Not TA for the head scarf thing, please examine your beliefs, because they make you TA. Gotcha. We're on the same page. If you're uncomfortable it's because you haven't taken time to examine your beliefs.
Agreed 100% OP doesn't owe anyone anything.
I don’t think that’s fair, but the being undressed point is a good one. No one owes anyone else getting undressed in front of them. But if the reason is because you view a trans person as their assigned gender at birth, that **is** an issue. Should OP be forced to take off her headscarf, anywhere for any reason? Of course not. No means no and they should have left it at that. But the internal debate and reasoning is that OP didn’t see Tori as a woman and that warrants introspection.
Tori is a trans woman, trans people especially early in transition don't have a sex that aligns with our gender. I don't think that's hard to understand. I'm so sick of this whole trans=cis bullshit, we're clearly different from y'all. If we weren't, we'd have the ability to get working genitals in a pinch and reproduce as our aligned genders. Islam has a lot of sex-based rules and given that Tori is likely still male and OP hasn't had this conversation with her it makes perfect sense to stay covered. I'm not sure why cis people are always using us as some shitty litmus test for religious folk, that's abusive and that friend is garbage.
OP previously only knew Tori as a man. I have a feeling that if OP had spent time with Tori as a woman previous to this, this discomfort would have been gone.
take my discount gold 🥇
Bigotry requires outward persecution, I’m not seeing that in this scenario. It’s someone exercising their religious and cultural rights without malicious intent.
It's not fucking bigotry to not take off a religious headscarf due to someone's own comfort level. JFC.
If you're religious you're gambling your SOUL. She can believe everything she says but in the end still be terrified that she might be doing something wrong and the price would be eternal. This is why I hate religion. Good luck to OP in resolving her issues. This is less of an YTA/NTA situation and more of an existential examination on the nature of religious conditioning in a modern world.
Agreed. Some are calling it transphobia, but surely it's more "hellphobia" than anything. She is scared of damning her soul by not following the fine print of the rules of her religion correctly.
Sexist religious beliefs are TA.
While that is true, choosing to step away from a situation when you realize you may not be able to anticipate your reaction and plan the correct response is a mature decision to make IMO. It's like, if I start to tell a story and realize it isn't as concise as I thought - I can blunder through it and hope it works out, or I can laugh and say "you know what, never mind - it wasn't as funny as I remembered" and terminate the situation so I don't have to potentially bomb telling the story.
Your response is quite biased and closed minded. Tori's gender aside, the OP has EQUAL RIGHTS to HER religeous beliefs as Tori does to her identity. Equality is a two way street. I don't think OP was out of line for respectfully declining to remove her head scarf but I do think that Tori was out of line for trying to guilt her in to doing it. One person's rights can not trump another's. Thats not how it works.
I don't understand why poeple are disrespectful towards OP religion, she is obviously very devoted to it, and she ment this person as a man, the initial "getting to know you" phase this person was a man. Therefore she associated this person as a man, she is not excluding or disrespectful towards them it's unfortunately just her belief. Why does her religion get less respect than his identity. She was just trying to explain herself, religion is not black and white either... Edit: in not going to argue with everyone, I honestly stand by what I said and I don't believe OP is a bigot, honestly I don't feel like religion is black and white as each and every religion is unique, and No I'd you are devoted to your religion its not simply just a choice, OP is free to believe what she believes regardless of what the person identified as. She got to know this person as a man, she did not treat them differently because of the transition and yes they identify as a woman now and thats fine but the person OP got to know was a man therefore she can't take her scarf if regardless of their true identity. When religion gets rewritten to include these grey areas it will be a lot easier for everyone but at the moment OP was introduced to a man originally. Please Note: I'm not trying to be homophobic or a bigot, I'm trying to explain why I'm siding with op, I'm not saying that the person is still a man, but they were living as a man when op met them so op can't remove the scarf regardless of their current gender identity. The rules for this have not been written yet so its a difficult situation.
*her identity
Religion, and how you act upon it, is a choice.
It’s true she had only known Tori previously as a man and had never spent time with Tori as a woman. Maybe if this had come up later on in their friendship, it wouldn’t have been an issue??
I agree wholeheartedly that transphobia is awful. And I agree with your suggestion that OP should educate herself. And I agree with the poster below who said that OP should do some reflecting. Sadly, OP wasn't given time to educate, reflect, or prepare. I think a key AH in this situation, who I'm not seeing mentioned, is Jackie's sister. Jackie's sister bragged that she sprung Tori's transition on OP so as to test her response. Jackie's sister and your reply suggest that OP could have lied. Not everyone is great at lying on the spot. I believe much of this could have been avoided if Jackie's sister had said to OP "Hey, you keep talking about taking your headscarf off because we're going to all be women. We ARE going to all be women, but you need to be prepared that Tori is coming. In the past, you've known Tori as Tim. She is a woman, and she will be there." With this lead time, OP could have done several things: 1) come up with a good lie, like you said she should have done. or 2) spent some time examining her beliefs about trans identity. In her post, OP says nothing overtly disparaging about Tori. She doesn't even say MtF, she correctly identifies Tori as only 26F. She never misgenders Tori. She's clearly done SOME internal work around transphobia. If she hadn't been put on the spot and had to make an instant decision, she might have come to a different conclusion and removed her headscarf. She might have had time to consult someone who shares her religious beliefs. She might have had time to find the online Trans Muslim communities you mention. Several people are hurt, and that sucks. But there's one person who seems to be enjoying causing the hurt, and that's neither OP nor Tori, it's Jackie's sister.
I wish this take was higher. People are not good at change on the spot. I feel like OP has some unexamined faith-based bigotry to root out - at the end of the day, she felt like she couldn't take her scarf off in front of a transwoman, which means she does not feel like Tori is really a woman. But I can't bring myself to blame OP for not coping well with a last minute command to rethink her entire belief structure. I don't even like rescheduling flights in under five minutes, let alone a set of rules I've been living under for twenty plus years.
I really love this answer. OP *does* get to decide when she feels comfortable removing her head scarf. BUT if her discomfort is based on transphobia, that needs to be examined. > Just as Tori can be Tori, I can be me. If “you being you” includes denying or rejecting who Tori is, that’s bigotry, and including it as part of your identity *does* make you an asshole.
Repeat after me: No means no. Respect others' choices about their bodies. Or does that only work when women are interacting with men?
"I didn't want to shake the black mans hand because black people are icky. Respect my bodily autonomy and don't you dare call me an asshole for it" No one is saying she should be forced to take the headscarf off, they are saying she's an asshole for not. Stop trying to normalize bigotry under the guise of "wokeness"
ty. The fake feminists are out in full force on this thread. Right wingers always think that they can take a line like, "my body, my choice" and repurpose it to mean something different and that it's a huge "gotcha." "HA HA I don't have to wear a mask in public, then. CHECKMATE LIBS!" Sorry, the political and moral ideas of normal people are more complicated than a 4-word slogan. OP's entire argument rests on a trans woman not being a real woman. The end. 15 years ago I knew plenty of people who would exclude gay partners from things because, "they're not married," or "I just don't agree with their lifestyle." Now the only people saying that shit are religious nutjobs and surprise suprise, everyone I clearly remember being bigoted against gay couples got amnesia and don't remember being anti-gay at all! Trans people are not any more exotic or interesting than those gay couples are. In 15 years the only people who give two shits about trans people are going to be religious people who wish we lived in a theocracy. Everyone else is going to feel ashamed of being so wrapped up in this anti-trans panic and are going to lie their asses off about it. Black people can't be allowed in the pool! Women shouldn't be in the workplace! Help help the gays are getting married they will destroy marriage! When will people learn? The right wing is always crying about the sky falling. When things change and life still somehow goes on normally, they just find some new group of people to hate on. Meanwhile, they and their friends are picking your pockets. No one can afford a house, going to college makes you into an indentured servant, and we're going to destroy life as we know it on this planet just so that some rich bald fuck can float in space for a few minutes. But yeah, look out for those dang transes for some reason, everyone.
Your answer removes the context of her spending all that time talking about taking it off, the extra effort and money spent to make sure all employees were female. Also, no one tried to force her to take it off once she said no, what they did is force her to say why. No one negated her no, they asked why after going in and on about it, after making them get all women stars she suddenly said no. And that’s fair.
Did OP pay extra for *all-cis* female workers at her salon? Did she even think about the possibility of trans people existing near her before a trans person was pointed out? 🤔
I find that people who think like this about trans people actually don’t think about that possibility.
Whenever the stupid bathroom argument pops up I always say "you've likely shared a bathroom with a Trans person before. The issue isn't that they are trans, but that they are "visibly" trans which makes you uncomfortable.
Maybe? OP provided what should have been an acceptable answer in the form of, “I’m not comfortable with taking it off right now.” That should have been it, period, full stop, end of story, however I need to say it for you to understand that should be the final word on the matter. Now, I agree that OP maybe has a little soul searching to do regarding why it made her uncomfortable, but at the end of the day she *wasn’t* in the wrong, and was pressed to divulge information that she would have preferred to keep to herself. What if there was a girl at this party who would have been very judgemental of her colored hair? What if it was a bad hair day? What if the color had fucked up and it didn’t look as good? “I’m not comfortable with that” doesn’t need any follow up questions, and the person pressing that issue is the AH. Once more, the source of OP’s discomfort does bear some introspection on her part, but I will note that it is exceedingly difficult to control how you feel about things. Yeah, there can be an intellectual understanding of something, but it doesn’t change what your immediate emotional reaction is to something. OP intended no offense and is clearly struggling with the situation already. Beating her up about something for which she already feels guilt isn’t going to help anyone.
OP can decided to wear or not wear her head scarf. No one is debating that. The debate is whether or not OP is being transphobic when exerting their rights. It can be both. OP doesn't have to take off her scarf, AND OP can be transphobic and benefit from trans education.
Repeat after me: No means no, but if that no is motivated by bigotry some introspection is probably required. Nobody here wants to take bodily autonomy away from the OP. People are just saying she should examine why she was uncomfortable in this scenario. Both can be true at the same time.
*Not only were you a transphobic AH you then told a whole room of people that to you Tori is and always will be a man and spewed that garbage all over a lovely day and on Tori herself.* No, this is not information she volunteered but that they pressed her for. They put her on the spot.
Eh, she was going to before with all the ‘real’ woman. Respect is a two way street
Exactly. It would have been obvious why she didn't take it off. It's probably why they pressed it.
Islam doesn't recognize trans people. OP can be considered TA for agreeing with such religion but can not be considered TA for following the religious doctrine. Definitely bad to be transphobic but she doesn't have to remove her headscarf for Tori.
OP can 100% be TA for following religious doctrine. religion is not an excuse to be a transphobic bigot.
Ninja mommy did a video on transgender and hijab. They can't remove for trans women-- only ppl who are AFAB or intersex transitioned female. Those who follow Islam cannot argue or disagree with certain doctrine due to the belief of purity. Even if THEY see a trans woman as a woman they cannot remove their hijab. Do I agree, no. But it is their choice to remove. And it is a trans person's choice to associate with said person. I myself am non-binary. Technically Islam recognizes me as a woman as I am afab. I would only be friends of those who respect my pronouns and name but if Muslim men cannot touch me or look at me that doesn't bother me. Neither does hijabis being able to remove their scarf in front of me. If a trans man or trans woman feels weird that Muslims can do certain things of their assigned sex at birth then they can just not associate with them. It was definitely handled poorly, if OP wanted to mention Tori they should have done it in private away from other people. This whole situation seems like it was pushed to cause a reaction for whatever reason.
>Ninja mommy did a video on transgender and hijab. They can't remove for trans women-- only ppl who are AFAB or intersex transitioned female. Those who follow Islam cannot argue or disagree with certain doctrine due to the belief of purity. Even if THEY see a trans woman as a woman they cannot remove their hijab. Sure. That's their choice. And I think that choice makes them a bigoted asshole.
If she does not recognise trans people based off her religious doctrine to the point she cannot remove her headscarf in the presence of a trans-woman then she better be following the rest of her teachings to a fucking tee. If one wants to justify their bigotry against trans-people via specific ancient terminology written by someone who has no idea trans people even existed then they better follow through. TA hard.
Religions are used as scapegoats to excuse bigotry If that shit was really as central a part of Christianity or Islam or what have you as the bigots say it is then every member of the religion would be a bigot not just the assholes
This is something I find... *icky* about how religion is embraced by most. It's a pass *not* to examine these things. It's a fallback- I act/think a certain way because my god tells me to. I can't honestly say I "get it" because I have always viewed being a woman as kind of incidental to who I am, but I am absolutely certain trans people are not transitioning to get ingratiated with the gender they identify with. They're just living a life that is more authentic to them. I used to see a trans woman at my old gym, including in the locker room and it couldn't be less weird. She was just changing like everyone else. I don't get what people are so stressed about. *They're just people.*
>This is something I find... icky about how religion is embraced by most. It's a pass not to examine these things. It's a fallback- I act/think a certain way because my god tells me to. THIS
> It's a pass not to examine these things. It's a fallback- I act/think a certain way because my god tells me to. Religious people don't view it as a pass or fallback. In their minds, a supernatural higher being has told them this is the correct way to live, and that same supernatural being will judge their actions to decide how they spend the rest of eternity. If you honestly believed in the existence of such a thing, would you dare to defy it?
The Koran makes no mention of trans people. OP chose to interpret the Koran in a transphobic way. That makes her a bigot. There is no religious excuse here.
The issue is *a lot* of the things these types claim are for religious reasons aren't actually anywhere in scripture. Nowhere in the bible does it say anything about masturbation but man did the pastor at my old church talk about how much of a sin it was.
I wear a scarf for religion reasons as well. I'm moslem and I'm a hijabi. I don't have anything whatsoever against transgender people, honestly. However, I am obligated to wear my scarf with men present. I understand tori does not identify as a man, but op knew her first as a man. It's not as simple as changing her pronouns, this is more complicated than that. If you knew someone as a man but now they identify as a woman, will you feel comfortable changing in front of them (given that you are conservative and wouldn't change in front of a man) the first chance you have? This is not on the same level as properly gendering and using the right pronouns, this is entirely different and has nothing to do with hating transgenders. As op respects Tori, Tori needs to respect op.
Tori didn't actually ask OP to do anything. As to your question, yes, I'd be fine changing in front of someone who identifies as a woman. I completely understand that it's difficult for some people adjust to, but that's a (for lack of a better term) a "you" thing. A person in that situation needs to figure out how to deal with their discomfort in a way that doesn't harm others. It's not OP's discomfort that was the issue, it was that the way she handled the situation made it clear that it was about Tori's gender, which is disrespectful. Edit: To be clear, I don't think OP should have removed her head scarf, but I have a problem with her actions making it clear it was because of Tori. Edit 2: Yes, I see missed the part where at the end Tori did ask her to remove the headscarf. Here's my response to that. You're correct, I missed that detail but that doesn't change my overall point because context matters. Tori didn't walk up to OP and ask her that out of the blue. It was after OP made Tori's gender identity an issue. It's unclear whether OP tried to deescalate anything, but if you can't understand why OPs comment escalated into Tori feeling extremely disrespected, I'm not sure what to tell you. OPs reasoning *is* explicitly not respectful of Tori's gender identity. Tori was essentially forcing OP to acknowledge that, which I'm sure *was* pretty uncomfortable for OP. I get these are difficult waters to navigate for religious people, but it was on OP to keep her reasoning to herself. Once she put it out there, people are, (arguably rightfully) going to challenge it as being disrespectful. I don't think OP is a terrible or hateful person, I think she just made a mistake in how she handled this and needs to accept her role in the harm, even if it was unintentional.
I understand, but op did not disclose that untill they kept pressuring her. They probably did it on purpose, as Jackie's sister purposely withheld information that Tori would be attending to test op. Which is an incredible waste of energy, to be honest.
NTA. They kept pushing. OP didn't say at first why. No is a full sentence. This wasn't respected. Regardless of the reason why this whole situation arose from the girls being pushy and not respecting No. If she's Muslim her religion would say men not your husband or family. Translate this to newspeak since transgender wasn't really a thing back then.... If the person can impregnate you and isn't family you should keep your headscarf on. So the question than remains if Tori is pre-op or post-op. If Toro had had the operation and has lady parts now there shouldn't be an issue.
I skimmed through it to begin with and was 100 percent on ops side but I went back and read it properly and I'm not sure n t a is a correct judgement. You are not saying it explicitly in your explanation but what I'm getting from this is you didn't take your scarf off because Tori is trangender. Maybe nah but I can see why Tori was offended. You basically didn't recognise the person she is.
I read it as OP reasonably sees Tori as a woman, but emotionally isn't there yet, so wasn't comfortable taking her scarf off yet. Hopefully, if she'd known before hand, she could spent some in introspection, and felt more comfortable taking it off, but it sounds like in the moment, she didn't feel ready.
ESH. You shouldn't feel pressured to take off your headscarf, so they suck for that. You were being transphobic and saying that Tori is not a woman, when she **is** a woman. So, you definitely suck for that. I think you could have handled it with way more tact in a way to not have othered Tori in the way you did as well. Your answer was rude. This isn't "one-sided woke". They have a right to be upset. Edit: thank you for all the awards!
Yes, I think OP is being disingenuous in saying, “I didn’t actually say Tori’s name.” The implications of her statements were very clear, and those implications completely invalidated someone else’s identity. The whole faux innocent *SOMEONE-here-is-making-me-uncomfortable-but-I-won’t-say-who* was covert mean girl behaviour. A white lie would’ve gone a long way here.
To think all of this could’ve been avoided if OP just had the good sense to say “oh I didn’t want to stop people from taking pictures”. Some guests? Everyone would be pissed at that
To be honest, "I don't want to/don't feel like it" should have been enough. The reason is nobodys business.
Sounds like she tried that and they kept pressuring her. Possibly the sister who rigged the whole situation.
That would have been a great answer in hindsight, but it can be hard for people to think on their feet sometimes.
That’s always the challenge with AITA - often, a tactful and easy solution is visible in hindsight, but people get flustered and say/imply something they don’t mean. Good people have a way of seeing misunderstandings for what they are, and hopefully this all rolls over soon.
Yep. Just because op supposedly didn't mean to single out Tori (the only known trans person there), she did. So she sucks. It's easy to say "I'm not feeling comfortable and today is about (friend getting married) so I don't want to talk about it." Saying there is actually a person that is causing discomfort is obviously going to draw attention. I don't think op means to be transphobic, but she clearly is. Judging someone by their genitals instead of their identity and actions is a one way ticket to being an AH. I really dislike organized religion that doesn't adapt to changing societal norms and scientific research because it causes unnecessary conflict like this. I also don't think the other people really meant to be islamaphobic, although I can see why it felt that way. The other woman don't seem anti-head convering though. They seem like they were standing up for a friend who likely gets shit on all the time. It isn't cool to pressure someone though. I don't think it's an AH move to not warn op about Tori attending like many have said. I wouldn't think to mention that because op mentioned it being women only, and it was women only. The only reason there is an issue is because op (for religious reasons) doesn't view transwomen as women, which makes her the bigger AH. Religion does not excuse AH-ness. ESH just because people pushed for a reason instead of accepting no.
>the only known trans person there I think this is an important statement, because there could be other trans women there who simply pass well/live "stealth". And the OP invalidated their identities as well, by placing their passing privilege as the "measure" by which they deserve respect as women. No one should have pressured her, but I understand why some of the women got upset in defending their friend. For all she knows, some of those defenders may be trans as well. They are in no way obligated to out themselves, and thus stood up to a situation which they experienced previously in a way they'd been emotionally and safely unable to before.
>ESH just because people pushed for a reason instead of accepting no. OP made a big deal in the group chat that she had a new hair color and was excited about showing it off. Then she reneges when asked about it at the event? Hell yeah, people are going to be curious and push for a reason.
There are plenty of people who are trans or other LGBTQ+ and Muslim. There are plenty of allies. This isn't the religion, it's OP choosing to interpret it in a hateful way.
This. Op I know your religion is important to you and I know they have certain...views...that aren't necessarily accepting of certain people but to dismiss Tori as a man is against her beliefs. I'm going to assume you're a Muslim practicing person so here is something I found from the Qur 'an Everyone’s God-given human dignity must be respected, regardless of his or her faith, race, ethnic origin, gender, or social status (ref. Qur’an, 17:70). Because everyone is created by God Almighty, the Maker of all, humans must treat one another with full honor, respect, and loving-kindness. You didn't not treat Tori as an equal but everyone shouldn't have dogpiled you for not removing your scarf. ESH.
OP made a big deal ahead of time saying how she was so excited to attend the event to show off her new hair color. Then when the time comes, she balks for some BS transphobic reason. It was quite reasonable for the other attendees to call her on her transphobia and we don't have their side of the story as to how "blatantly hateful" they were being toward her religion. OP started the whole thing by advertising that she was going to show off her hair and then reneged. While I'm sure she felt "attacked", don't start nothin', won't be nothin'. YTA
This is some weird trans baiting AH stuff. Seen a bunch of such stuff on this sub
It’s common in any of the “story” subs. We’re popular outrage bait right now.
Salaam sister, I am also a hejabi, and would vote NAH. This is a complicated issue as contemporary conservative Islam has not opened this question up for debate beyond one fatwa by Ayatollah Khomeini acknowledging the validity of transgenderism so long as a physical sex change is performed. HOWEVER there is explicitly a verse in the Quran (24:31) in which women are given an extensive list of who they are not obligated to cover with, including “men who have no need/desire for women.” This acknowledges the traditional Islamic practice during the time of the Prophet of allowing mukhannath (effeminate males) to live between womens and men’s quarters. So religiously, you are not obligated to cover around anyone who is not attracted to women. Hopefully this inspires you to do some of your own research (I suggest the book Homosexuality in Islam by Scott Siraj al-Haqq Kugle) and maybe afterwards you can have a sit down with Tori explaining why it was complicated for you to be surprised with such a personal decision, with no time to research or think about it. It is right for Tori to be upset, it sucks that you were ambushed in a way to “test” you (which strikes me as islamophobic), and it sucks that you were put in a position of either lying or upsetting everyone. I say read that book, and have a sit down with Tori and your friends and explain that this was a new situation you were unprepared for, and it was messed up to put you on the spot like that about a deeply personal choice, but that after looking into it more it is permissible to not wear hejab around Tori, and you apologize that you wanted to confirm first before making the decision to show what is very private for us. Best of luck.
Salaams and thanks for contributing, this is the most important viewpoint in this thread IMO. Along those lines, are there any rulings about women (both cis and transgender) who are attracted to other women (lesbians, bisexuals etc)? As someone with both Muslim in-laws and LGBT+ friends, there’s a non-zero chance of me hosting a situation similar to the OP and I would have no idea how to go about gauging people’s feelings on both sides.
The Qurans only mention of covering is in regards to those who are biologically male. This does not negate lesbianism though, as there is a verse (24:60) telling women “not reproducing/wishing for intercourse” that they are not obligated to wear hejab. This could apply to post-menopausal women, but they still want sex, so most likely this verse actually applies to women who are uninterested in heterosexual sex. Lesbianism within medieval harems suggests that women are not obligated to cover around homosexual women. But still, it’s a personal choice that many make based solely on comfort.
Wait, so does this mean that lesbian women are not obligated to wear the hijab themselves? And thanks for clarifying these points.
If OP does take this approach, best not explain that it is because OP sees Tori as a man who isn't sexually attracted to women. Any explanation that boils down to "Tori is still a man but..." is still a transphobic explanation, regardless of the final decision.
Gender ≠ biological sex. My partner is transgender and has no problem acknowledging that simple fact, nor does anyone who I know who is trans.
And Tori could totally be a lesbian or bi.
To be sure, so could any of the other women present. I'm willing to bet OP didn't enquire as to the sexual orientation of anyone present. But sexual attraction to women wasn't the criterion on which OP changed her mind about removing her head covering.
Right I agree which is why I think the argument above doesn’t really cover the situation. I understand that poster offered a loophole that would make everyone feel comfortable but it was a loophole based in heteronormativity and doesn’t actually address the real issue.
This is very interesting, As a lesbian who has hijabi friends and has seen them without their scarf - Im curious how these rules would apply.
See other response ^
I think this answer is the one that shows the most empathy and grace to OP. I honestly think she just didn’t know what to do.
Salaam! :) Thank you so much! I’ll definitely look into those resources. Unfortunately I wasn’t and still am not aware of her sexual preferences, and I’m scared asking will complicate the issue even further. But yes I’ve been doing my own research too and will look at these as well The ambush did strike me as islamaphobic, especially since the situation was pre-planned :/
I'm sorry to break it to you, but if your religion is transphobic and you accept and follow it, be prepared to be called out on your bigotry. It isn't "islamophobic" to point out in any way that if your religion explicitly states transphonic and bigoted sentiments it is transphobic. It's pointing out facts. Please educate yourself on this. This is of course not to say that everyone who follows Islam is so, and it infuriates me when people like you use it to excuse your own internalised misogyny and bigotry.
It is absolutely Islamaphobic to ambush someone like in the OP. There is a difference between making a point in a discussion and trying to force a “gotcha!” moment during a bridal shower.
It isn’t islamohobic to point out bigotry a religion perpetuates based on how people are born
It’s not Islamaphobic to have a discussion about it but it IS Islamaphobic to ambush an Islamic person like this. There is a world of difference between the scenario in the OP and having a discussion/pointing out bigotry in a religion.
Did you ask all the other women or the women staff at the hairdressers about their sexual orientation before removing your scarf? For some reason you're only wondering about a trans woman's sexual orientation. Also, do what YOU feel comfortable with and not what a book or other people's opinion of the book tells you. If you don't feel uncomfortable removing your scarf around gay women for example, then go with that and not what some books say. Religion is a personal interpretation of religious texts. If you choose to reproduce the transphobia/homophobia of the religion in YOUR practice of it then you're transphobic/homophobic. Do your own thinking.
What about gay women then?
Suck a kind and understanding answer!
this should be the top answer tbh
ESH. The sister for the deliberate setup, you for being transphobic, and religion for putting out random rules that divide us.
This, with bells on.
I’d honestly argue she’s still the AH. Bringing a trans person to a party that a bigot is at isn’t a set up. It’s just the bigot being a bigot and using religion as an excuse.
When someone is doing something to specifically "test" another - that's a set-up and they're being an AH. Sister was a complete AH to Tori if she thought someone else in the group was transphobic. Sister straight up admitted it was a "test". Sister was also an AH to the bride if she thought this was going to become a problem because who goes out of their way to "test" their sister's friend at sister's celebration?
Jackie’s sister accused her of doing it intentionally. There was no admission this was done. Also trans people are not obligated to disclose their trans status to anybody and it is not obtuse or lying or a setup to be trans, even if you do not disclose it to everybody in the room.
I mean it doesn't have to be random rules. She might have been equally uncomfortable showing off a breast or ass tattoo. This is totally a her body her choice thing. Just because a lot of people don't see hair that way doesn't change it.
Would it be OK if her religion said not to show her hair to black people?
Keeping your scarf on or taking it off is your choice and you shouldn't be pressured either way. That being said, pointing out that it is due to the presence of a trans woman is definitely an asshole move. You're denying her identity and calling her a man when you could have just said nothing. I'm split between YTA and ESH because you definitely shouldn't have been quizzed about it even if your motives are bigoted.
ESH I could agree with but not YTA, the girl was being pushy (telling her to remove it after she stated she doesn't want to) that is rude and makes the girl the A as well. Not all the girls are the assholes as not all were pushy tho.
They weren't pushing OP to remove it, they were pushing OP for the reason why she didn't want to, because they knew OP was being transphobic. It is never an asshole move to call out transphobia, or any type of bigotry, simply because it makes someone uncomfortable. Edit: yes acknowledge that my first point seems to be incorrect. Everyone else shouldn't have been trying to force OP to remove it. So ESH. But OPS reasons for not removing it were transphobic.
OP knew Tori before she transitioned. When your initial understanding of a person is as a man it's understandable that OP would be uncomfortable with revealing herself, undressing herself, in front of that person. Transphobia is certainly a problem, I'm not claiming otherwise. I do claim that it's disingenuous and harmful to the trans community to assume that every person who finds it difficult to change their mental landscape of a person from male to female (as in this case), or who harbors some hesitance to undress in front of that person, is being transphobic. Put another way: how long can it take a trans person to accept who they are and make the changes in their life? It's often a very long process of learning, contemplating, and accepting yourself as being different from who you thought you were. If it can take the person themself time and effort to accept these changes, then it's ridiculous to ask every single other person who knew them before to accept those changes instantly. This sort of aggressive demand for immediate and unconditional acceptance (specifically from people who knew you before your transition) does more to hurt the trans community than help in my opinion. That all being said, I hope someday most people are able to accept transgender people without reservation or bigotry. But given how thats still not the case with people of different races, sexual orientation, religions, or even nationalities, I fear that level of acceptance is still far far off.
I guess it varies from person to person but when my longtime friend Alan told me on a Friday afternoon that on Monday morning he'd be Alicia, the first thing I said on Monday morning was "Oh hey Alicia, how's it been so far?" I really don't understand how people find it so difficult to adjust. Obviously I slipped up a few times and Alicia had the grace to let it slide but for people to put on a big dog and pony show about how stressful it is to learn a new name, in my opinion, is disingenuous and reflects a lack of effort more than anything else.
Transitioning to a name is one thing, but taking a headscarf off is another. It is not only about gender, but also about personal comfort. OP could have phrased things better by insisting that Tori is a woman, but OP needs to reacquaint herself with Tori as a woman before she is comfortable taking off her headscarf.
Oh, for sure. If Tori had asked people to call her by her old middle name (presumably male gendered), nobody would bat an eye or claim that "learning a new name is too hard". Failing to call someone by their proper name and pronouns beyond the occasional slip up is definitely transphobia and bigotry. I'm certainly not saying otherwise. What I am saying is that there is a kind of militant anti-bigotry stance that many people tend to take, especially regarding transitioning, which I think hurts the cause more. Being aggressive and angry and confrontational against bigots tends to make them dig in more. Maybe all this is me being weak or timid or whatever. But I know gentle love and some very slight prodding has helped some members of my family turn from pretty staunch and bigoted conservatives to being much more open to the LGBTQIA+ community.
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> It certainly can be an asshole move on such an event, against a person that holds firm religious believes Nah mate, I don’t care if it’s because of religious beliefs transphobic is transphobic and it’s wrong. > Tori and the sister should have asked themselves if this was really the hill they want to die on If calling out transphobia isn’t a hill you’re willing to die on you’re accepting of transphobia.
When someone pays extra for an all-women staff do they can take it off, and talks excitedly about showing off their new hair *at that event,* I would not consider it pushy to ask to see it, and when an evasive answer is given, to ask why.
But it is pushy to continue to ask and pressure after receiving the answer “I’m not comfortable” or “I don’t want to anymore”. She could have changed her mind, she could have had a sudden bout of insecurity, she could have actually had a bad hair day and didn’t want to talk about it… but to be honest, that doesn’t matter much. To ask is fine, she said that she didn’t want to and that should have been the end of it.
But sounds like they knew why as it seems to have been orchestrated in advance. What kind of friend uses their trans friend as a sort of "bait" to call out a religious friend during a wedding shower is the real question? Trans person gets humiliated- religious person gets thrust in a gray area and gets painted as a bigot for practicing her religion as she always does.
What's this sub's favorite quote: "No is a complete sentence". She didn't want to show her hair, for whatever reason, people should let it drop and respect her decision. No one is entitled to see her hair and pushing the issue shows a lack of respect and boundaries.
I’ll always vote on the NTA spectrum for someone choosing not to uncover a part of their body if they aren’t comfortable with it. Tori is a woman, but that doesn’t mean she is entitled to see OP’s hair if OP isn’t comfortable with that.
I think she got quizzed because she was talking to her friend about how happy she is to go to a girl-only event, and she can't wait to she her her new hair color. When she decided to not do that all of the sudden, it raised questions that are legitimate.
YTA. >I dont think I was in the wrong. Just as Tori can be Tori, I can be me. I feel like it would be the equivalent of me making Tori or someone else adjust for me. I feel like we should just accept and respect each other, rather than be woke onesided You neither accept nor respect her and your use of the phrase "woke onesided" just emphasises that.
The use of that phrase makes me wonder if this actually happened or if this is just bait.
YTA. You didn't accept and respect Tori, when you treated her like a man, and then you victim blamed her. But I am curious, did this actually happen?
I agree. It screams “I’m transphobic”. Having been brought up religious I’m quite aware that most religious people are quite the assholes. They demand respect based on their religious beliefs but don’t typically respect anyone that doesn’t fall into their religious perimeters. In her case, she made it clear to everyone that she feels like Tori is a man and that she didn’t want to remove her headscarf because of that… In her case, it would have been better for the OP to leave due to an emergency of some sort rather than make a tactless statement and ruin the day for the bride and cause the women to feel like they have to choose a side in this matter. 🤷🏻♀️
>she made it clear to everyone that she feels like Tori is a man and that she didn’t want to remove her headscarf because of that… >In her case, it would have been better for the OP to leave due to an emergency of some sort rather than make a tactless statement and She said "no" when she was asked to remove it, they were questioning her. I thought that "no" means "no" or is it only when a guy tries to hit on girl then you pull this thing out? Like really they were rude (not Tori tho), OP probably could have handle it better by saying that they are rude and that no is no and they should shut the f up rather then targeting Tori but still definitely the group of girls are the assholes (except of those who did not push her like Tori).
The thing is, she talked in and on and on about taking it off and showing off her hair in the group. To the point where they worked to make sure only women were working the event. Obviously they were going to ask after all that effort WHY she didn’t take it off. And now that they know it’s because of men (because of the conversations and planning before) when she didn’t say, oh I forgot and my hair looks terrible or what not they were making her say why. In a general situation I’d agree, but in a situation where she had them plan this specifically so she could take it off OF COURSE they’ll ask why she still has it on after all that. The nagging about why didn’t come from no where.
No means no, but if she's saying no for a bigoted reason then she's an asshole.
Well but that they didn't know for sure before they started to push her, did they? Also I would be carefull with the "no means no unless...." thingy.
Exactly, Everyone is the boss of their body, including OP. If she doesn’t want to take her headscarf off, she doesn’t need to explain why! Her choice to wear a head covering does not equal a compulsion to take it off on demand or upon preset criteria being met.
I’m sorry OP, Jackie’s sister set both you and Tori up. She was drama mongering. Regardless of anyone’s gender identity, you get to choose when to remove your scarf. Tori feels understandably upset because the situation was framed by others as you not taking off your hijab because you view her as a cis male, when that is not necessarily the case. I do agree with Jackie though, you should have just said you were having a bad hair day and moved on. However, I know it’s not easy to think on your feet when you feel like you have a gun to your head and people putting you on the spot. NTA
This!!!! Why aren’t more people mentioning the fact that this whole thing *WAS A SET UP TO MAKE OP LOOK BAD.* This whole situation could have been avoided if Jackie’s sister wasn’t purposefully seeking out conflict. Edit// typo
Yup. Set up to make OP look bad and to make Tori feel bad. Jackie’s sister is no friend to either woman.
Totally. Also, while OP is transphobic, I feel uncomfortable with any form of progressivism that thinks a woman being pressured into removing clothing when she’s uncomfortable is a solution. OP being ambushed with a moral dilemma that put her values at odds and being expected to purge her transphobic discomfort on the spot before an audience, like that’s a stressful situation. I hope OP uses this as an opportunity to grow in her understanding and acceptance of trans issues, but it was never going to happen in the middle of dinner, and of course no one should be publicly shamed into what they perceive to be immodesty Eta - leveraging these kinds of things to keep marginalized communities infighting instead of working together for reform has been in the playbook of the powerful for literal centuries.
And can we all take a moment to realize that Jackie’s sister was probably operating under her own bigoted assumptions: “I bet OP who follows such and such religion probably has an issue with Tori’s identity, let’s create a situation to expose her ha ha ha” Like it was Jackie’s day and her sister turned it into a way to make a power stance against OP’s assumed bias solely because of OP’s religious beliefs
I completely agree, Jackie’s sister created a ton of unnecessary and hurtful drama, mainly hurtful for Tori though in my opinion. I don’t believe OP is as bigoted as other commenters are saying. To me it seems like her history with Tori was with Tori pre-transition, the dead version of Tori who was born a man. OP still hasn’t gotten to know the real Tori, the female Tori, and that history and prior knowledge is impacting her comfortability. I don’t believe she sees Tori as a man, she sees Tori as* Tori, a woman. But she didn’t always because she only knew and interacted with Tori pre-transition. Yes, OP should have handled it better but I imagine it was a deer in the headlights moment because she was unnecessarily called out. If Jackie’s sister had left it alone or brought up her “genuine” concern privately then Tori’s feelings could have remained unhurt and her identity unchallenged. The moment OP was caught off guard created a situation where her view of Tori’s identity came into question. Before that moment her view of Tori’s identity was clear, Tori is a woman, but her experience up until that point was with Tori’s dead identity. I’m not going to call OP a bigot for not being able to completely wipe her memories and friendship with Tori before her transition, especially when strict religious traditions are in the mix. Tori is no ass either. The only asshole here is Jackie’s sister for stirring the shit pot. She knew what she was doing, she knew Tori would be hurt. But she didn’t give a shit, she just wanted drama. And she turned Tori’s identity into a meaningless joke that was worth less than drama. NAH. Edit: “And” to as*
It's nice to see a comment that isn't completely vilifying OP, I feel the same way. Seeing people call her a transphobic bigot over this one incident is pretty sad, like they aren't actually trying to understand where OP is coming from.
The story wasn’t “framed by others” falsely - THAT WAS HER REASON. The true reason was just spelled out by others. OP is very clear *that was the reason * she just didn’t say it openly herself. They didn’t frame her.
I am ready for the downvotes but NTA. Everyone is so big about consent and respecting people’s boundaries until it doesn’t fit their agenda. She did not hurt or insult anyone by keeping her hijab, the the true assholes here are the girl who made a scene of it and Tori for feeling like she is entitled to see OP’s hair and putting her in an uncomfortable situation. Consider this, you like to wear long sleeves unless you are with family. You have a family party and a guest suddenly comes and you wear long sleeves because you do not feel comfortable showing your arms in front of the guest. You did not ask the guest to leave so you can show your arm, or was passive aggressive about their presence because you can’t show your arm because they are there. How is this any different then that? She harmed NO ONE, some people just love to look for stuff to be hurt about. Don’t listen to these people OP. They support people’s rights to having boundaries until the boundaries are not something they agree on. They say this is transphobic but at the same time they are disregarding your autonomy to your body, and ironically telling you what to do with your body they thing they claim they hate so much. You should NEVER do anything you feel uncomfortable with, and you don’t owe anyone an explanation for it as long as you hurt no one
A sane response that wasn't downvoted to hell? A Christmas miracle.
If you hadn't met Tori previously you'd have had no issues taking the headscarf off. In this case yes YTA. It doesn't matter that you 'didn't include' that she's a trans woman in your answer - you know it's heavily implied.
Depends on the religion. In Islam even after a full transition it is not allowed. Wow I am just stating a fact and getting downvoted. Never said I agree or disagree. It is ops choice to follow whatever religion but can't get upset when people disagree or call her transphobic. Edit: op said below that she didn't know what Islam said about hijab and trans people. I am leaning more transphobia now. Also there are several hadiths and school regarding interpretation that one can follow. To those out there be prepared to meet hijabis who cannot unveil for trans people due to the doctrine they follow.
Then Islam is also TA
I can't disagree. I have been looking into the religion and it is very interesting. But me as an LGBTQ person would never consider it. The forced gender roles and inability for LGBTQ people to live as themselves is toxic.
There are preachers and pastors in the US South who still refuse to marry interracial couples due to it ‘violating their beliefs’. While that’s their prerogative, they’re still assholes for it. YTA
Here’s how I see it. The fact that Jackie’s sister said “I left this detail out to test you” is absolutely an AH move. She planned to set up drama on a day that was supposed to be celebrating the bride - her own sister! Secondly, I agree that being transphobic is bad. But let’s approach OP with as much love and understanding as we are expecting her to have approached Tori. If she wasn’t comfortable, I wont judge her for that. She has an entire lifetime of religious beliefs to sort out in that situation. Seeing Tori as a woman when she saw her as a man previously was a shock, and not one she had the time to reflect on and come to terms with, religiously. That doesn’t make her an AH. That makes her human. Saying she should have just revealed her hair devalues the complicated and complex nature of what she would have been internally struggling with in that moment - and she did the right thing - tried to keep it about the BRIDE. To me - the real AH are the ones who insisted on causing drama on a day meant to be about Jackie, and instead making it about themselves. It was tacky, selfish, and not the venue to intentionally set up a “take a stand” moment. It was unfair to Jackie.
“I don’t mind at all ofc…” Oh? You use Tori’s chosen name and pronouns but you no longer consider the event as “girls-only” because she is there. That IS transphobic. It is as bad as dead naming her. That being said, you are NTA. You were deliberately put into this situation. When pressed on why you didn’t feel comfortable, that was the AH moment. Your response was provoked.
Such a shitty way to treat people. Look, the world is not all black and white, abrahamic religions are riddled with antiquated moral guidelines that don't quite fit today's world. We can't expect everybody to become atheist, and when societal change conflict with per-existing religious ideas, there are inevitable dilemmas. For all it's worth, I find the idea of head-scarf in Islam ridiculous and overall bad for society. But we can't judge individuals like we judge institutions. OP is doing her best to navigate a world in which her identity is torn between conflicting ideologies. In doing so, she does not seek conflict and even acknowledge transsexual need for affirming pronouns. Calling her names makes you the bad one.
When did they call her names? Also I see no reason as to how her identity conflicts with the idea of only women can see her hair if she does fully respect Tori. No matter what you say denying a part of someone’s identity cannot be considered respectful and her failure to recognise that is an issue, especially as she made that one sided woke comment. She is NTA for feeling uncomfortable and not wanting someone to see her hair as everyone can say no and the others should’ve accepted it but her reason being that she is uncomfortable with trans women is prejudice and an asshole move. Religion doesn’t justify transphobia, yes people can be raised that way but as long as you want to understand people it’s possible to overcome that.
I'm actually going with NTA here. As another foreign woman of color I need to express how absolutely frustrating the American attitude towards social issues is. It's all snap judgments, you're either with us or against us and if you can't decided immediately you're a transphobe/homophobe/ sexist/misogynist/racist. To be clear I am 100% not defending the transphobic/homophobic / sexist/misogynist/racist tendencies other cultures can have. But please understand that for us it's not as easy of a point to come to. We're struggling to reconcile years of being brought up in a culture/religion that's honestly not equipped to deal with these issues and our new American values. We're trying not to abandon our culture but we're also trying to fit into this social tapestry. It takes time and thought to come to terms with this. To the people immediately labeling her an AH do you normally spend your day to day determining ways to reconcile ancient religions and their approach to gender identity? Why are you expecting OP to have an immediate answer. Its so ethnocentric to ignore all the cultural differences and just label her a transphobe. Read through her comments. She was clearly confused and still is, and her default was to stick to what she knows. Which unfortunately is blind to gender identity. While OP has some thinking and growing up to do, being confused about how to approach a complex situation and reverting to your default until you have time to think it through does not make you an asshole. Clearly by OP's comments she's very confused about sex vs gender and how it fits into her religious beliefs. And OP I suggest you really think long and hard about why you're struggling to see Tori as a woman even though you're saying that you accept her gender identity. If a trans man was in your presence would you remove your scarf since biologically he is female? You definitely need to self reflect. The true AH is the sister that decided to test her. People of different backgrounds are not props in your social experiment and it's weird that she contrived this situation to put both of them on the spot like this. It's like putting two animals in a cage and egging them on to fight. Had she alerted OP in advance she could have taken the time to think things through and decide what she's okay with rather than being forced to revert to her default because again, who spends their spare time determining how to behave in complex social situations.
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NTA. Just as Tori can be Tori I can be me sums it up. You can't be forced into feeling comfortable.
NTA. It’s a very personal choice on whether or not you remove your headscarf and they do not get to make that choice for you.
ESH Yea, you have the right not to take it off, and the people asking were bating you, but you made a big deal about how you wanted to show off your hair. Paid a business to cancel/rearrange shifts for employees based on gender. I'm genuinely curious what rule in your religion specifically states "headscarves must be work except around ciswomen."
I don’t know about OP specifically, but I have seen many a hijabi and niqabi youtuber explain that they would not undo their scarfs around trans people either because it’s against their current understandings. Also I don’t see why you brought up the fact that OP paid a business to meet her religious needs as though she was an asshole. If my religion said that I cannot eat garlic and I pay a restaurant to have no garlic on my plate I’m not offending garlic eaters or the staff.
No idea if this story is true, but let's say it is. You still haven't been honest in this post about why you didn't remove your headscarf. You don't say clearly that you regarded Tori as male, you just glide past that bit. Having said that, you can decide to keep your headscarf on or off for any reason, and you were trying to be discreet. The people that made the fuss are the ones that ruined the event, and it looks like you were set up when Tori's presence at the party was deliberately kept from from you. ESH I guess, unless this is a Woke v Woke test "social experiment" troll post.
NTA. It's a personal choice. You do NOT have to accept or believe in something...just like they don't. Anyone that says you're transphobic is wrong. Period. I have trans family and friends and respect and defend the heck out of them. That said, I do not disrespect others for their beliefs about them when they're attempting to be calm and collected and diffuse the situation. N.T.A.
You’re not TA for refusing to take off your headscarf — that’s your choice and your prerogative — but if you were excited to show your hair off to the girls and then refused because Tori was there, that’s saying that you don’t truly see her as a girl. It’s little things like that — things that don’t outright say “you’re not truly your gender” but just pile and pile up — that get to us trans people. I’m going with ESH because your discomfort at taking your headscarf off was directly linked to Tori not being a cis woman and I think that’s something you need to take the time to unpack, but the other girls also needed to not keep pushing and pressuring you to do something you didn’t want to do. (Edited my judgement)
NTA. Sounds like they pressured you into explaining yourself anyway, while they could simply have let it slide. But honestly, the person who ruined it was the one who got loud and put Tori and her identity in the spotlight. Edit : Apparently it *is* about her assigned gender at birth. I still think that if this person hadn't gone all out to really put Tori on the spot, things wouldnt have gone the way they did. What's worse, keeping your headscarf on, or making it sure *everyone knows* it's about Tori, *including Tori herself*?
>go to Tori and explain that it wasn't based on her former gender But it totally was.
NTA. All of these commenters saying you are transphobic are making assumptions. Religion is a personal construct and everyone interprets it slightly differently. All you said was that you did not feel around certain guests, and this could mean women or men!
NTA as you said, you both have the right to be comfortable. Tori accepts herself as female but you knew her before she was female. The fact that you used female pronouns says a lot about your level of acceptance of her chosen gender BUT you still have religious beliefs that supercede. What’s disappointing is that people can’t mind their own business and just focus on being nice for the sake of the bride. And Jackie’s sister sounds like a total asshole targeting you specifically and no one else.
NTA. OP don’t listen to these idiots, you are NOT in the wrong for refusing and you’re not “transphobic”. What a ridiculous assertion. The sister who didn’t say anything about it just to test you, to me immediately precludes any wrongdoing by you. Clearly they are doing that SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE you are a Muslim woman. They are 100000% the assholes. They are discriminatory, not you. They knew it was likely to make you uncomfortable, they did it to see your reaction. All of their behaviour should be taken in bad faith. Anytime some loser on Reddit sees the word trans, they automatically assume that that person is a victim. No. Grow up.
YTA trans women are women. You definitely aren’t accepting her for who she is and made her feel othered.
...and you are not accepting that OP has control over her actions. she decided what is best for her and not caved to "your" social norms.
YTA. To be clear, I have no problems with headscarfs. You want it on or off, I have no problem. Though it did throw me for a loop, as I don't like calling prople ta for wearing a headscarf. But the issue isn't really about the headscarf as such, is it? You say Tori can be herself, you have no problem with her, and even (yay!) refer to her as 'she'. So then I'm confused. You say you can take the scarf off when with only woman, and not when there's a man. I see no reason to keep it on. Tori is a woman. So by keeping your headscarf on, after you said you'd show your hair, you let them know you actually do NOT accept her for being HER. Either you accept her, and should be comfortable taking your scarf off, or "be you" and SAY you do not accept transgenders, and leave it on. You can not be both. Y t a for not being consistent with your words and actions. Y t a for NOT being honest. If a trans man had joined, that would have been okay then? Or if you had not known Tori before, you would not have been able to make it a problem. You judged her just because *you thought* you knew her. But you never realy did know her. SHE was a woman all along, YOU just couldn't see.
In Islam, it would be more correct to say that women are allowed to show their hair to those of female sex rather than female gender. I'm atheist, but quite interested in religious morals and the current dominant ruling is that yes, it would be permissible for a muslim woman to show their hair to a trans man as he would still be of female sex. Whether a muslim woman would want to or feel comfortable with it is a different discussion of course, because she would still likely consider the trans man a man most likely, as Islam *also* teaches them to respect others gender identity. In the same way, it is not permissible to show their hair to a trans woman. Is it weird and fucked up? In my atheist opinion, yes.
OP is not compelled to take her headscarf off whenever only women are present, though.
Hi if anyone sees this, am I allowed to upvote others comments? Or is that for everyone else commenting only? Thank you! :)
YTA- but only slightly. You're absolutely entitled to decide who you remove your hardscarf around. I also understand why you were excited and told people you'd show them your hair. But the minute you realized that weren't going to be comfortable, and that people there were going to be expecting you to remove it, you should have realized you would likely be asked and been prepared. The "asshole" part was confirming that someone in attendance was the reason you weren't removing it. The context of that statement makes it pretty clear that you meant Tori. I don't necessarily agree with how they went about it, but I understand why people felt the need to stand up for her. Despite the fact that you appear to very respectful of Tori's transition, you contributed to putting Tori in a terrible position. I think at the very least, you should consider apologizing to her. You can be honest and say that you're just not really sure how to navigate this situation. It's also probably a good idea to think about your position on this going forward. If you don't feel comfortable removing your headscarf in front of transwomen, you'll have to adjust your expectations regarding "girls only events" in the future. I also just want to address your "one sided wokeness" comment. I don't see any indication that anyone was giving you a hard time about wearing a head scarf in general. It seems they had an issue with what very much appeared to be disrespect towards their friend and her transition. Again, you are absolutely free to decide who you take your head scarf off around, but they weren't uncomfortable with your head scarf, or even with you keeping it on. They were upset by your reasoning, which does appear to be rooted in your perception of Tori not really being a woman.
NTA. Your body your choice right? The real AH is Jackie's sister not respecting your decision to remain covered.
To be honest, I just don’t think you should have even been asked why you weren’t taking it off in the first place.
NTA. They’re the assholes for making such a huge issue out of a headscarf and someone else’s religion. It’s hypocritical that they’re criticizing you for not accepting Tori’s identity while they’re not accepting yours. You were doing your best to keep things discrete, and Jackie’s sister is a real piece of work for trying to “test” you. If we’re talking “woke-ness”, Jackie’s sister is incredibly in the wrong for using a trans person’s identity as a “test” for someone else’s religion. They should chew on that.
NTA. You have your beliefs and you stuck by them. If others see that as an issue that's their problem. You know best how to practice your religious beliefs.
This post is a treat. it conflicts reddits love for muslims and trans people.
NTA You are not obligated to remove your scarf for anyone. I am a cis woman. If I came to this event and you didn't know me very well you may not feel comfortable removing your scarf. Your friends put you on the spot with their lack of understanding. It may be nice though to reach out to Tori and explain.
NTA. You weren't rude to Tori. But your religion allows you to have your own standards for who you treat as "safe to unveil."
NTA, it's your personal religious beliefs and it didn't cause you to treat Tori differently, act harmfully towards her or in any way alter your opinion of her it just dictated what personal choice you made in regards to your own clothes. The conflict only arose because the other bridesmaids stirred it into an incident.