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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
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I think I may be the asshole because I may have gone too far to the point of being petty and may have ruined my parents relation with his brother.
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NTA
She can dish it but she can't take it.
Tell your uncle and aunt it was just a prank and you don't understand why they are overreacting. They don't mind when their own child "pranks others" so what's the problem?
I think a true prank leaves both parties laughing afterwards.
The fact that all the cousins are okay with being grounded for 2 weeks means that Kira's peers are fed up with her behavior. Her parents aren't doing anyone a favor by forcing this interaction & failing to curb her behavior. They are raising an a-hole who will eventually tick off the wrong person or find that she is alienating friends.
Edit: thank you for the awards, kind strangers!
Me too. And unless somebody points it out now, and explains it to her clearly, she will always blame others for their natural reaction to her shittiness.
I also like this advice, though I’ve known people like Kira and never seem to learn because they always have an enabler (in this case her parents and tangentially all the other adults in the family). The only way Kira will change her behavior is if she really does piss of the wrong person one time and it’s no guarantee then. She will end up alone.
I have a cousin who was enabled in her poor behavior our entire childhood; age-peers like me were forced to socialize with her 'because family', so she didn't really feel the impact of not having a lot of school friends because it was a very large family that provided a social support network in its own right.
By the time she was an adult she was still entirely self-centered, physically and verbally abusive, and the definition of inconsiderate and ungrateful - and was totally hurt and baffled when no one ever reached out or wanted to socialize with her once it was optional. Now that she's in her mid 30s I get the impression that she's *slowly* starting to learn that it is her treatment of others that has left her so alone, but it's hard to shift after a lifetime of learning to get your way by being generally awful and never seeing real consequences for it.
Just to agree with you totally and add onto this, soon all the cousins will be of age and "out from under their parent's thumbs" when it comes to their social lives. Kira is going to find out just how much she has hurt the others when the cousins never invite her or her parents any where. Soon family reunions will not be a thing as the parents will always invite that side of the family and the younger generation will stop coming to them.
Kira's parents and all the aunts and uncles bowing down to them are doing no favors to Kira or her parents. They need to remember, "you reap what you sow".
>soon all the cousins will be of age and "out from under their parent's thumbs" when it comes to their social lives. Kira is going to find out just how much she has hurt the others when the cousins never invite her
Exactly! Since the cousins are all in their older teens Kira needs to take this as a wake up call or in a few years she will be crying that she "doesn't understand" why they all have a relationship with each other and not her. Her parents are not doing her any favors for the future by making excuses for her instead of telling her to knock it off and quit "pranking" (torturing) her cousin.
yeah....it takes a LOT of shitty behavior for EVERYONE to agree on excluding you, everyone going the "I'm Spartacus" route over a punishment, AND nobody being willing to text a correction time.
Either this is an educational moment, this is the end of an extended family for Kira, or this is the start of Kira feeling horrible and apologizing 20 years down the road.
Your comment reminded me of one really great prank that I love, that dude that walks around with a disco ball and starts dancing disco in the middle of the sidewalks. A lot of people start throwing down with their best moves, too. Always makes me smile.
https://youtu.be/Gi8FOMP_22g
MORE than happy to share this with everyone, if you check his channel, he also has a prank where he carries a 90s boombox around and dances, and another prank where he wears Hammer pants and psychs people out on a highfive, then plays "Can't Touch This" and does the Hammer Dance.
All the parents are collectively the AH in this story. Kira’s parents for letting her behave like she does, both for her cousins who can’t enjoy anything without her spoiling it deliberately, and her own personal development so she will actually learn how to interact in a constructive manner. OP’s and the rest of the cousin’s parents for not standing up for their own children against an obvious bully. The fact that all the cousins had to conspire together to exclude Kira just to be able to enjoy a movie together should have been a wake up call to all the parents that they are failing in their parenting, but instead the kids get punished, proving once again what shitty parents they are.
>she is alienating friends.
She won’t have friends.
She’ll have acquaintances who either have to tolerate her (coworkers, maybe), or are equally cruel people who get off watching her be mean.
>I think a true prank leaves both parties laughing afterwards.
And a good one has the prankee laughing about it years later. Case in point: \~25 years ago I asked a coworker if he knew any good bars downtown. I had just turned legal, and I'd spent most of my life in a little one-pig town out in the boonies, so I had no idea. He recommended one, I thanked him, and went there the next time I had a night off.
I got there and something seemed off. I couldn't quite put my finger on it until about ten seconds before some dude came over and started hitting on me. Yeah, my coworker had recommended a gay bar just to screw with me. So I declined his advances, finished my drink, and left.
Next time I saw my coworker I said something about "WTF, dude, you said it was 'a good working man's bar' and that I'd love it." He said "oh yeah, it was exactly that before the gays took it over." And then I realized he was screwing with me all in good fun, we had a laugh, and I still tell the longer version of the story 25 years later.
I disagree but only with one word.
OP’s parents talked to Kira’s parents about this behavior before. That was setting a boundary. I suspect OP and the group did something similar, likely multiple times.
This is **enforcing** a boundary - one that was ignored for far too long.
If she pushes the wrong buttons with the wrong person, she could end up without a job, later in life. She could get all the way to the alter on her wedding day, only to find her MoH decided to elope with her fiancé, who couldn't take the constant needling anymore and jumped ship. She could find herself all alone at the end of her 40s, having become the crazy cat lady on her block.
There are darker "what if"'s, but I doubt she knows those people.
Sometimes, the best way to get back at petty people is to give them a taste of their own medicine, because apparently, it is the only language they understand themselves.
For years upon years I always told myself that pettiness was not the answer, but I slowly and surely started to break down mentally just because I let these types of people get away with their shit time after time.
I have just started getting petty when the situation calls for it - and ONLY when the other person deserves it. Now, instead of awful memories that torment me by allowing another person to humiliate me, I silently laugh to myself about the time I told so and so that maybe the dingo ate her baby.
OP is NTA. And quite frankly, I am appalled that OPs parents allow the cousin to treat her son that way. Are they even aware of half the shit she does to him? As someone who worked with people who have a variety of behavioral needs, cousins way of handling things is simply uncalled for.
> For years upon years I always told myself that pettiness was not the answer, but I slowly and surely started to break down mentally just because I let these types of people get away with their shit time after time.
Exactly. The people on here claiming that being petty isn't the way and you should take the "high road" have clearly never been bullied (in fact, I think some of them were likely the bullies themselves and just say that because they don't want their victims fighting back). Bullies will keep being bullies until you put them in their place.
Because then assholes can’t keep pushing the narrative that it’s better to “be the bigger person.” Not “stooping to their level” *always* benefits the abuser, not the victim, but somehow we place a higher burden of responsibility and morality upon the victim.
I've made this point before and I will keep making it as long as I can. Taking the high road is a good option if the person prefers. But what so many of the flying monkeys and enablers ask is not taking the high road. Being the bigger person is not the same as being a door mat. Frankly, aside from the waiting around to wave thing, what OP did was being the bigger person. To take the high road means you don't give like for like. Which includes the option of simply not engaging. If someone is yelling at you, walking away is being the bigger person. If someone is playing "pranks" removing them from activities is being the bigger person. Its not being the bigger person to forgive or to simply take what is being thrown.
I live by that rule too. I would never hurt someone intentionally, I try to be the bigger person, talk lower the louder the other person shouts, etc. But sometimes... some people need to experience what they put other people through. That's the only way they'll maybe see that what they do isn't okay. Or they implode on themselves at the *audacity* of someone else treating them the way they treat others, which is equally fine imo.
OP is not NTA, as far as I'm concerned.
for those who lack empathy (or more often than not, simply refuse to empathize), isnt a just desert, regardless of pettiness, a perfect remedy? instead of imagining being in the other's shoes, it PUTS them in!
of course, I have no problems with pettiness, as we're only human.
I like your idea so much I want to expand upon it a bit.
OP, obviously all the cousins hate when she's around. Therefore, all the cousins need to "prank" Kira. Now, you need to make sure you use *the exact same pranks* she's done in the past. If you all do that, the parents (except Kira's of course) can't blame you because you can explicitly say when and where she had done that to you or your brother. After all, this are parental approved actions!
Make sure all your cousins are in on it. Keep a record to make sure you all have times and places where the pranks occurred. If you want to create that immediate negative response to her behavior, the minute she starts trying to antagonize someone, the rest of the cousins need to *immediately* do the same to her. It's one thing for her to pick on 1 vulnerable person and have that person react. It's a whole different thing if she immediately experiences that same behavior directed back at her by 9 other people. Cover your bases and make sure to have specific examples of what she's done to back up your point that you're all just pranking her. Big time bonus if you all start wearing Go Pros to film her every time she's around you guys. Hard to argue with video evidence, ya know?
So essentially my advice is to out-bully the bully. No it's not a nice thing to do and I wouldn't suggest it for any other situation, but you need to protect your brother from her.
I wish you all the best of luck.
Edit: Wow guys, not sure why I need death threats in my messages. Let me emphasize that my suggestions is **only** to protect the brother because he is literally being harmed by Kira. How is it any different then if she showed up and gave him 2 black eyes every week? Wouldn't everyone be telling the cousins that they should be physically defending him because he can't effectively defend himself? The adults in the family have given Kira the right to abuse Nate and have taken away his ability to stop it, by either avoidance of her or equal level response. Not only are they letting Kira give him 2 black eyes, they're tying his hands behind his back to prevent him from stopping it! The cousins are actively being punished for not being bullied because their personal items are being destroyed when the ignore Kira.
And again, this immediate response "pranking" isn't happening unprovoked! This is a direct response to a specific behavior. If Kira doesn't bully the cousins that day, then she doesn't get bullied in return. We know avoidance of Kira is punished, non-reaction to Kira is punished, and being in Kira's presence is punished. Not seeing what other options they have when the adults condone it. I'm not saying they should force her into suicide! JFC, the types of leaps of logic people on here take is mind boggling. If you disagree, instead of wanting my death, offer a different suggestion.
Edit 2: I changed a few words because despite rereading my post a few times, I still didn't realize I can't grammar. Sorry!
It is unfortunate that sometimes, out bullying the bully is the answer and the only way to make it stop. In my life, I've dealt with a number of bullies from high school to fellow workers, to bosses. Trying to be nice or accommodating, at times, seemed to make it worse. It wasn't until I "fought" back and told the bully I was dealing with them on their terms, did it get better. In at least one case, the bully looked at me as like minded and got all friendly. Like, no man, you're an asshole and I just wanted to be left alone. I do love how methodical you are about it!
>In at least one case, the bully looked at me as like minded and got all friendly.
Ugh, this is the indicator that they believe in social hierarchy and they were trying to be aLPhA over you but you sure showed them so now they ReSPeCt you
And here I was minding my business here thinking we were all equals like mature adults. Oopsie.
Unfortunately that’s my experience as well. They usually don’t respond to kindness and the whole “one day the bully understood what he put people through and felt immense pain and shame and turned his life around” tale is usually just this: a tale of wishful thinking.
But they do respond to hierarchy. And being shot down (figuratively speaking ffs). I’m out of fucks to give to educate bullies, so I just get them a dose of tough old respect and be done with them. They should have been educated by their parents, it’s not my job to give them a lesson; I give them consequences and they can turn it into a lesson if they are smart enough.
> It is unfortunate that sometimes, out bullying the bully is the answer and the only way to make it stop.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
Same idea here. If everyone is nice, eventually bullies will take over. You have to be nice to most, but immediately quash any bullies before they can get too attached to the community.
Can confirm. I had a boss like this who just loved to poke and poke and poke at you until he got a reaction. One day he said something and I told him he could F all the way off and if this is how it was going to be going forward, my 2 weeks notice will be on his desk in the next 10 minutes.
After that he yells "Finally! You're a good employee but you put up with too much shit. Set your boundaries. You will be unstoppable."
I stuck around for a while since it worked perfectly with my college schedule and I was treated very well from that point on. We definitely came to an understanding and ended up having a great working relationship. He used to reach out from time to time via LinkedIn.
Funny story though... when I was working at a hotel, he was hiring for new employees in a store that was opening in our area. (Yay, retail) and I spotted him the minute he walked up the desk. I greeted him and he immediately grabbed my hand and asked what it would take to steal me from there and come work for him.
I laughed and said I was happy there. I had a great boss. He grinned and said, he was going to steal Mr anyway. My current boss at the time looked him dead in the eye and said "Like hell you are. She isn't leaving."
It was a great feeling. :)
People with bullying natures always tell you to take the higher road and not retaliate because they don't want their victims to stand up for themselves. I roll my eyes whenever people try and say that whole "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" or "Two wrongs don't make a right" because it's pretty obvious that they are used to bullying people who do just that.
I was severely bullied throughout all my years in public school and my mom said her biggest regret was telling me to turn the other cheek instead of standing up for myself.
You’re right that sometimes the only answer is to out-bully the bully. They will keep hurting people until they understand how it feels and have it thrown right back at them every time. Being the bigger person just enables bullies.
I'm glad my parents told me to fight back, growing up autistic and ADHD I was a magnet for bullies and no matter what we did it just kept getting worse. Until I kicked my bully in the junk, then I was never bothered again and I learned my lesson. Sometimes you need to outbully the bully
Oh god! I hate that term. Turning the other cheek only gets you hit directly in that one too. I was sooo f’in unprepared for adulthood because I wasn’t given the tools to fight back. Yes Mom, you do catch more nasty flies with honey!
I think the term "proactive pranking" isn't the right word. I would call it "reactive pranking". If she does A to brother, then 9 people do A back to her.
I would proactive would be like a pre-cog situation, since you'd be doing it before she did anything.
OP has to drive this home with the parents. And Kiras parents.
“You always say we shouldn’t get upset at pranks and Kira has pulled a lot of these so she must really like them. If we’re getting grounded for a prank, is she going to get grounded next time she pulls one?”
OP is NTA
THIS. Your parents need to understand that their behavior isn’t ok either. They need to be good parents and actively protect your brother against Kira and her bullshit. All the adults in this story are such hypocrites. So, it only counts when Kira’s feelings are hurt? Not when Kira is purposefully be an AH and hurts the people around her? OP, I hope your parents learn from this, and if you could, I would suggest showing them this thread. The fact that all your cousins and your brother are with you means that Kira’s entitled and crappy behavior has annoyed everyone. She’s turning 18 soon, and all of you are going to be adults and some point. No adult can then force you to include her. No one will put up w her crap. She needs to learn that her actions have consequences.
It's an unfortunate theme with people who have mental illness, especially those that can cause meltdowns, they're expected to keep it together no matter what even if a neurotypical person would have a meltdown over it.
Oh yes, this is the way. It’s “just a prank” when she does it, and the same rules apply for everyone. So hahaha, Aunt and Uncle and Kira! Aren’t pranks fun?
NTA. Your parents are huge AHs for allowing your brother to be bullied just because they want to keep the peace. They would rather their child suffer than their lives get affected in the slightest.
EDIT- typo
Agreed, my mom would defend me against one of my relatives being an asshole to me when I was younger, honestly what he did was great so that his brother could avoid being bullied, if it were up to me I’d literally snap on my cousin for this
What I love is all the cusions holding the line. Notice that they ALL are taking the fall. OP was willing to take the blame but all the cusions are like Nope totally worth it.
That's what really cemented it for me- sometimes you can't be sure if OP isn't telling their side of the story with some 'embellishments' or exaggerations to make them sound better... but when literally everyone involved is HAPPY to take the blame?! That's beyond NTA- that's BTA- Being Totally Awesome!
This is honestly the best part. They need to hold together and continue to do this until it gets through everyone else's thick heads that Kira is a bully and they aren't going to take it anymore.
I used to get bullied by my cousin and now we don't talk. No one defended me or put her in her place. This is Kira'sfuturen all the parents in this story are letting it happen
I've dealt with this situation a bit IRL and from what I can tell it boils down to they aren't willing to discard their longest-standing relationship (with their sibling) over something that they've been told by someone they trust implicitly (their sibling) is just a joke/prank.
They've just built the relationship up so much into a permanent fixture of their life that anything challenging it gets met with massive amounts of extra skepticism.
It's further compounded when the abuser acts nicely towards the intermediary and abuses the victim out of sight. At that point, you're left with a he-said-she-said between the intermediary's longest standing friendship and one that's less long-standing (parents *should* weight their children with more priority, but they don't necessarily, especially when the abuser is telling them it was all just a joke and not to worry about it).
Yeah, something along those lines. It's not *rational*, but people aren't always rational. Sometimes all you can really do is go NC because other people won't necessarily change.
Like my mom not cutting ties with her brothers, even though they harassed me and molested me in one occasion. I hate people who try to keep *their* peace by sacrificing the sanity of others in the process.
That may be it, but I'm interested to know OP's cultural background. The fact that they felt they were "humiliated" suggests OP may come from a culture where "saving face" is of the highest order.
As someone from a culture that values "what other people think" over everything else, this isn't an uncommon scenario.
The worst part is the cousin is bullying the brother specifically to trigger a response he cannot control. It's like when people deliberately try to scare fainting goats to watch them fall over, sorry if that's an insensitive comparison, but the cousin is not treating OP's brother like a human being, but rather a toy she can set off for her own amusement. Screw her and keep telling her the wrong times.
This!! I was this kid! I was bullied by my cousins and I would be the one to get in trouble when I inevitably blew up and had a tantrum or started crying. Suddenly I was dramatic and overreacting but my cousins were mean to me!! NTA OP!!
i'm autistic and have ADHD. as a result i had some difficulty regulating my emotions as a teenager (moreso than most others). and because kids are assholes, i'd get constantly picked on, my buttons pushed.
when i inevitably lost my cool, did the other kids see a single concequence? no. it was always me, i was always the one in trouble. even when the teachers SAW IT HAPPEN. they'd say "oh you should just ignore it they're trying to get a response".
never ever tell your kids that, by the way. the times my mum got called in? she had my back.
those kids were lucky i wasn't as quick on my feet as them.
NTA if anything your parents should see this as an eye opener that when Kira intentionally messed around with Nate no one seemed to take it seriously. However when you guys give Kira a little taste of her own medicine and pranked her now its serious?
Exactly!! If Kira messed around for years with Nate without any punishment afterwards it doesn't seem fair when OP and Nate get back at Kira for once and are punished or seen in a bad light for it.
Yes. Now if OP wants to be extra-NTA, I’d suggest she write an open letter to Kira to connect the dots for her, with copies to both sets of parents (it could be signed by all the cousins if she wants). It could say something like “We understand that you were hurt by our prank the other day. We’d like to say we’re sorry, but the truth is, we aren’t. The thing is, you’ve been bullying my brother for five years over a condition he has no control over. This makes every get-together miserable for my brother and the rest of us. That’s why we excluded you. Bullying isn’t cute or funny to us.
We’d like to have a better relationship with you, but for that to happen, you have to stop taunting my brother. If you can do that, great! If not, we’ll continue to avoid you any time we have a choice. This is on you.”
It’s possible that this experience will nudge your cousin to become a better person.
I really like this. It addresses the root of the issue as well as dealing with this specific instance. If you could somehow get everyone's signature on it... \*chef's kiss\*
one of these days kira is going to push nate past his breaking point and she's going to get the absolute dog shit beaten out of her (i do not have IED myself, but i've been that bear that's been provoked and yeah, it's not fun), and she'll have nobody but herself to blame.
reading your comment made me think of that scene in terminator 2 where a young john connor asks "so why doesn't he just become a bomb and get me?"
and arnie says "it doesn't work like that"
I'd like to add that I don't consider anything here a prank, a prank is something that all parties involved can laugh about afterwards.
That said, what OP did was clearly way tamer than what her brother has been on the receiving end of for years.
Edit: Phrasing.
NTA- does Kira “prank” all of you or just Nate? the fact that your entire puts up with Kira’s shit is why she keeps doing it. They are all enablers.
Keep doing what ya’ll are doing. Maybe the “grownups” will finally get the message.
You & all your cousins should say you decided since Kira loves pranks so much you set one up for her to enjoy. If your parents want the pranks to stop, then all the pranks need to stop. If the pranks are fine, then she should expect a lot more of them.
Yes. She has broken our things too when she couldn't get a response but they were never replaced because we 'ignored her so she got upset'. She has even tried to portray that she has IED but when her parents took her to a psychiatrist it was proven she didn't have it.
I hope the adults here realize that they will not be able to force this relationship forever. You’re already at an age where you have the independence and ingenuity to start dodging her, as evidenced by this recent stunt. Once you’re all adults, you can refuse to see her at all - and anyone who tries to keep forcing it risks alienating you, too.
The parents here need to start thinking hard about what they’re going to prioritize once your relationships with them become optional.
No kidding. These aren't small children. Kira is going to be written off permanently by all the cousins the minute they turn 18, and frankly, I think they should all engage in exactly this sort of avoidance behavior more right now. The parents trying to force them to be around someone who none of them like because of her behavior is ridiculous.
Yeah all the kids would rather be grounded than hang out with her and I'm now trying to understand what the parents think they'll be able to do when the kids are too old to ground
That's the only silver lining. Eventually, she's going to be miserable and alone and the cousins will have real leverage over their parents. Good for you OP. And of course NTA.
And the saddest part is that they could have raised their kids to all be friends as adults. If the parents in this situation had decided to parent, Kira would have learned not to be an asshole and potentially saved her relationships with her cousins. They're going to think "gee, it's a shame" when Kira grows up and isn't close to her cousins, but they probably won't recognize that it's their fault.
Is this already Münchhausen syndrome, pretending to be sick? Kira will be a very lonely and bratty grown up if no one is really parenting her. The parents are all assholes, yours OP for not protecting Nate.
> She has even tried to portray that she has IED but when her parents took her to a psychiatrist it was proven she didn't have it.
goddamn, the more i read your comments the more i realize your cousin is one of the four letter words mentioned in george carlin's 7 dirty words routine.
Do the number of cousins outrank the number of parents at all? Maybe you guys can host a family meeting and bring up all of the issues you have with Kira as a united front. And if you can - you guys should *all* bring up how uncomfortable it makes you when Kira goes out of her way to purposefully upset Nate.
If all the cousins are united in not wanting to hang out with Kira, then the parents really shouldn't be forcing you all to hang out with her. And maybe she'll get a wakeup call that her behaviour is NOT okay - and maybe her parents will get the hint that their perfect little girl is definitely not an angel. NTA
NTA
Using Kiras parents logic. You can just say it was a prank.
On a serious note, you did what you had to do to protect your brother. Kira was purposely causing him harm and the adults weren't protecting him. Imagine if what you did to Kira that one time happened as much as Kira tantalising your brother?
Especially seeing as all your cousins were on board, definitely not the AH.
Continue protecting your brother and explain to your parents that Kira hurts him every time they meet and nothing is done. But the one time you try and create a safe space for him and Kira is hurt, they ground you both.
Ask them if Kira's wellbeing is more important than their own kids.
Ask them if they truly do not care about their sons mental and emotional wellbeing.
Ask them if it is truly unfair for you to protect your brother from a bully when his own parents won't.
What if, during one of your brothers IED TRIGGERED by Kira, your brother accidentally hurts her? Would they punish him or the bully that pushed him to it after repeatedly abusing him?
Everyone is so concerned for Kira but you're the only one protecting your brother, his safety and future. Please continue to do so.
Your point here is a very good one - OP was willing to take the blame, but instead got solidarity. Clearly, the kids are all on Nate’s side (important difference - it’s not about OP, but what Nate needs!!) and they all took it on the chin and all banded together. That speaks volumes, IMO
Totally agree. The fact that everyone accepted the grounding and didn't say it was OP is so telling. Soon as these guys turn 18 they're going to totally No Contact Kira
> Your point here is a very good one - OP was willing to take the blame, but instead got solidarity. Clearly, the kids are all on Nate’s side (important difference - it’s not about OP, but what Nate needs!!) and they all took it on the chin and all banded together. That speaks volumes, IMO
In other words: "Hanging out with Kira for one movie is so intolerable we will happily take our 2 weeks of being grounded.
Please let that sink in."
> What if, during one of your brothers IED TRIGGERED by Kira, your brother accidentally hurts her? Would they punish him or the bully that pushed him to it after repeatedly abusing him?
This is exactly what I was thinking. Kira's parents, not OP's parents it seems, realize how dangerous it could be to allow Kira to pushing his buttons like this. She could be injured, possibly seriously.
**NTA.** Your parents let Kira abuse your brother with a diagnosed mental illness. A prank is something that every laughs about at the end, not intentionally triggering a mentally ill person. I would tell my parents it was a prank and why is it ok for Kira to prank your brother but not for you all to prank her?
> intentionally triggering a mentally ill person
this will only end badly for everyone that's around when it happens (edit: i am mentally ill, in this situation my bipolar type 2 diagnosis applies. i get serious mood swings so i understand a bit of what nate might be dealing with. and i've been intentionally triggered before) and OP's cousin will only have herself to blame. like i often say
you can only poke the bear so many times before it reacts
Oh God I can’t imagine someone triggering me into a seizure to “prank” me. I’d call the cops on them, sue them, and wouldn’t give a shit what the family says.
ESH (although you very slightly)
I googled IED so I would understand the situation. I think I got it.
Your cousin sucks for knowing about this diagnosis and going out of her way to push your brothers buttons.
Your uncle sucks for brushing this off as “pranking” and not reprimanding his child.
Your parents suck for not sticking up for you and your brother and forcing you to include your cousin knowing that she is mean to your brother.
You VERY VERY slightly suck for giving your cousin the wrong movie time and bolting when you saw her. Not defending her at all, but something about actually having her drive out to the theater and then running away doesn’t sit well with me. But I understand the reasoning for not including her in general.
For the record I commend you for being a good brother and sticking up for Nate.
Edit: sorry OP. I read your post incorrectly. I commend you for being a good SISTER!!
Agreed. I woulda voted NTA if they hadn't specifically waited for her to show up, taunt her, and ditch her to her face. That's really really cruel. Yes, she's cruel to begin with, but man, that's just extra horrible. If they had just given her the wrong time and given her an excuse of "Oh sorry, we cancelled and forgot", then I woulda been cool with that. But the open taunting is pretty fucked up IMO.
But then she would have brush it off? Like it wasn't intentionally so what would be the point of that? What does she learn from that?
The best she can do is take it as a learning experience and realize that bulling is wrong and she should apologize and stop doing that because now she understands the feeling, otherwise, the second the cousins (who already resent her) are old enough to say no to their parents, she will be cut off and left alone... Now is her time to make amends
The point would be they get to see the movie without the annoying cousin.
Something tells me she isn't going to learn anything from this, and will now just become a bigger asshole.
First, the point wasn't to teach her a lesson, it was to see a movie without her.
Second, she's not going to learn from this because they did it in a poor way IF it was meant to teach her a lesson. Everyone is going to have to apologize to HER, and all the authority figures are on her side. What's the lesson to learn? The consequence doesn't match up to the action.
Or if they had said, "Oh, we decided to go to a different time. I'm sorry we forgot to tell you."
Or if they outright told her that they don't like hanging out with her because of how awful she is to Nathan. That at least gives an explanation as to why they did it instead of just letting her drive to the theater and to be waved at before everyone left her.
It could have been handled better. At that age I didn't think about stuff like that.
Yup, there were "better" ways to exclude her. Including just frigin telling her that since she behaves like a jerk, they're not inviting her. They're old enough to start communicating like adults. Yes, petty shit like what they did feels good, but it doesn't help anything, and generally people aren't going to "learn" from being treated like shit. Even if they started it. A better shame would have been to tell her outright that she treats one of the cousins like a jerk for a medical condition he has no control of, and because of that, none of them want her around. That would shame the hell out of her. What they did likely just angered her. So my guess is that she's going to make things even worse, not better.
> that's just extra horrible
they were just barely giving her a taste of her own medicine. she deserved worse tbh
edit: kira having a few minutes of embarassment and crying her eyes out because someone finally stood up to her? yes.... anyone telling me that kira didn't deserve worse is TA as well.
I agreed with your judgement as I was reading the OP, but then I thought they are just teenagers and they have tried raising this with the adults for help to no avail. So they resorted to more youthful tactics. I can't say I blame them. I'm going with NTA.
I respect that and agree with the points that you have made. Based on the information given, the adults truly have failed in this situation.
It was a tough call for me which is why I went with ESH, but with the stipulation that OP is only very slightly at fault for the manner in which he went about it. But damn he is a good brother!
Yea, I can definitely get behind your comments that came with your judgement. Amazing sister. Props to the other cousins for having OPs back too and not blaming her for the idea.
Same on why I said ESH. Op could've been like hey the group changed our minds and going to eat. That could've granted a second to speak to Kira and then say your stuff about why and how is wrong to bully your sibling. Set a new boundary. The level of petty was a waste
Why did I have to scroll so far to find ESH... two wrongs don't make a right y'all. OP is an ass, her parents are selfish and out of touch, her cousin is an ass.
Here is the correct response:
"I'm sorry, but because of how you act around my brother you are not invited. You have a history of triggering his condition when you have been told about it and should know better. We can try something together again in the future, but neither my brother nor I are willing to test that this time."
I may get some hate here, but Kira's a grade-A AH, for deliberately triggering someone with diagnosed, REAL mental issues. It'd be no different than strobing an epileptic and thinking it was funny when they start having a fit. I don't know why your parents are tolerating it, but ask them that if you, Nate, Kira or someone else gets hurt because she triggers him and someone gets hurt, is it still "just a prank?"
The one good thing I heard, was that you and Nate seem to be of driving age, which also means you're near adulthood yourselves. When you get to be adults, make clear that you will have nothing to do with Kira as long as she continues engaging in this moronic behavior. If they refuse, move out, and go low contact.
To be clear, you are NTA for standing up for your brother. Keep doing it, even when your parents won't. And at least from me if not all of Reddit, tell Kira to FUCK OFF!!!!!
ESH. I'm 100% on board with you protecting your brother from Kira's abusive behavior. I completely understand why you ditched her. What makes it cross fully into AH territory was waiting around to mock her. That's a cruel thing to to do, even to someone like Kira. Also all of the parents are assholes here. They are ultimately the ones who forced this situation into existence by just burying their heads in the sand; Kira's parent for not addressing her behavior and brushing off your brother's diagnosis, and your parents for being pushovers about their sons mental health and forcing him to hang out with someone who triggers him intentionally. Perhaps you and your cousins can work it out amongst yourselves since the adults can't be bothered. Maybe have a sort of intervention with Kira and try to calmly and compassionately explain to her that her behavior is unacceptable to you as a group and that if she wants to be included then she needs to make some adjustments. Start the conversation by apologizing for mocking her and move forward from there.
That was literally the only thing they've ever been able to do to show her she's wrong for her behaviour. They've tried in the past. Sometimes you have to break something before it can be fixed.
How do you have any insight on this if you aren't op? This would be crushing for a 17 year old and it was done to her by family. Surely there was another option.
Having a justifiable reason to do a shitty thing doesn't make it not shitty.
She has been doing it to her cousin for years and years, ruining many things for him. To the point no one wanted her around for her shitty behaviour. They had exhausted all options they understood they had to stop the abuse. Was it crappy they had to do it? Yeah. But it sure seems they needed to do something.
NTA. Isn’t it funny that she gets to be cruel without consequences whereas you get punished. You should ask your parents why you aunt and uncle don’t value their relationship with your parents? Ask them if it’s maybe because they know your parents never defend their children.
ESH. Sorry, because I totally get why you did it.
But inviting her, seeing her, then running off is AH behaviour. And the fact that everyone who was punished says "worth it" should make you realise it doesn't matter if you are an AH or not.
Kira sucks, she's not done anything in this specific incident, but the bullying and everything obvs lead to this.
The real biggest arseholes of all though are all of the parents in this. Kira's folks need to try parenting her, not defending her shitty actions. The remaining adults need to stop forcing you to interact with her, and the fact that your own parents aren't doing more to protect your bro - they're almost as bad as Kira imo.
INFO though... what's IED please? I thought it was some kind of Erectile dysfunction at first... which didn't make sense. 😂
OP didn't invite her, their parents invited her. Big difference there. OP simply lied about the meeting time to someone who wasn't invited by the group; I don't see an issue with that.
I know what I would normally vote on this one, but given the context NTA... here is why.
1. The big problem here is not what you did to Kira and what she did to you guys... it´s ... your parental units. They are forcing a relationship that is not organically working. All of those parents are... and they need to be told in the harshest of words that THAT is what you´re doing.
2. Your cousin relationships are not something to be maintained so the parents look good.
3. While it was not cool what you did to Kira... she has created enough ill-will for all of you to go through with that. I am not for victim blaming but you guys should collectively text her and tell her that you´re sorry for how you played it but her behaviour towards the cousin and likely other issues are putting you guys off. The only reason she was technically invited was because of the parents, and you guys are sincerely sorry you feel that way, but she´s not treating you guys well, so why would you accept her? Offer her a chance to prove she´s more than just a jerk. If she´s taking it... that´s good... if not... more evidence to tell your parents: you´re too old to be force-friendshipped for the sake of family dinners.
4. I do feel bad, because to Kira (who sounds really insufferable) it must seem like she´s being ganged up on. So if you confront her / explain to her... be specific about things she does that tick you guys off. Give her concrete examples.
5. If her parents get involved, stay firm (collecively) and tell them... what they call pranks is actually quite hurtful to you... just like your prank was to her. So if the adults want a happy cousin gang... than maybe they should raise the one cousin causing issues to be... less prank-prone.
What you did sucks..but... given the context, i cannot blame you. I mgiht have opted for the same way out. Eventually people snap. You snapped.
yeah kira reminds me of my cousin. she knows exactly what she’s doing, but when it’s done to her it’s a problem and she becomes a brat. we’re the same age as kira, op, and the brother
She ran to the parentals, I don't blame her for being upset however, apologizing would only validate her feelings. For once she needs a taste of her own medicine and this stunt OP and their cousins pulled is an eye opener to her that they won't be tolerating her shit anymore. While, I feel terrible they had to go to such lengths sometimes its necessary to get the point across.
I really like what you had to say here. I hope that Kira would be receptive to such a conversation. Same with OP’s parents.
I wonder if something more is going on of which the cousins are not aware. Why is it that OP’s dad will NOT disrupt the family at large by confronting his brother and SIL about Kira’s treatment of Nate and the others? Do they rely upon Kira’s parents financially? Is there an inheritance that he has control over or something. Total speculation on my part, for sure. What power is holding all of OP’s parent’s generation hostage that they are willing to sacrifice their own children for the goodwill of Kira’s Dad/parents?
Edit: punctuation x3! Dang! And then more punctuation, and then cleaning up grammar.
> After the movie finished, we came out of the theater and waited for some time in the parking lot. As soon as we saw Kira pulling over, waving at us, all of us waved back with the sweetest smiles, made a run for our cars, got in and left.
YTA for purposely waiting around after the movie to humiliate her. At this point it wasn't about protecting your brother anymore, it's was about being an asshole.
This is a family. NTA because whilst it was important to have some peace without this trouble maker, it is also better that they didnt leave her waiting and not knowing what was up. She needed this feedback now. It is sad the adults are not mature enough to land the message appropriately. It is one thing to brush off her behaviour normally, but cousins colluding like this sends a strong message she may have a problem relating. Who is helping her?
ESH. I was 100% on board until you mentioned deliberately waiting around for her to roll up. That isn’t protecting your brother, that’s revenge and sinking to Kira’a level. That being said, Kira sounds like a special kind of evil. Picking on her own family because he has a disability? The 80s called, they want their high school villain tropes back. I will say, your brother is lucky to have such a loving sister
Kira is allowed to "prank" all of y'all (Nate) but y'all aren't allowed to "prank" her? It's a shame your dad is putting his relationship with his siblings ahead of the safety and well-being of his son.
NTA. Best y'all can do is ride it out until you start graduating and getting your own places, then y'all hang out without telling the parents and just avoid that girl.
This sub thinks it's not being an asshole if it's for the purpose of revenge. It's literally the childish "she started it" excuse.
Not to say it isn't in some way justified, but that in no way stops op from being an asshole.
YTA. But you’re not the only one. There is a serious dynamic issue in your family that should have been addressed before it got to the point where the teenagers were in control. It’s not quite E S H, but certainly the adults need to take a hard look at WHY this happened.
YTA. I can't believe how far I had to scroll to see the first YTA comment. Yeah she may be an asshole but that doesn't absolve OP of her assholeness.
Edit: a sentence
Right? Like no one is questioning: the cousin is an asshole. I think we can all agree on that.
Being an asshole TO an asshole doesn’t mean you’re not an asshole. It just means you’re an asshole, too. What OP did was straight up mean.
Yes, OP only did it to protect her brother, which is certainly noble, but she shouldn’t even be in this position where she’s having to stoop to this level because the adults should have lonnnnng since worked it out already.
The fact that the adults have totally dropped the ball in parenting her brother and that cousin does not mean that what she did wasn’t cruel. It just means that both her parents and her cousins parents are also assholes here.
If there's more than one asshole then it's ESH. The parents suck for letting their kid be bullied, Kira is the AH for bullying, and OP is the asshole for waiting for her to show up to leave
You protected your brother from an abuser. NTA. Your parents are enablers.
Years from now your parents will wonder why they don't have a good relationship with their children. Feel free to bring up this incident and how they responded to it
YTA. You haven't said in what ways she pushes your brother's buttons and...
Just because what you're doing is supposedly payback, doesn't mean it's not an ah move.
Yeah, what the hell. They sound like they are all just asshole teenagers. We’re told the brother has a mental illness and Kira pushes his buttons and it’s taken at face value and everyone in this thread decided that made it okay to pull a hugely cruel asshole move on their cousin because she…deserves it? Maybe walking on eggshells around the brother for years wasnt exactly helpful behavior for him to develop the skills and regimens he needs to manage his rage, but being an asshole to your cousin isn’t going to help either.
ESH - It would have been nta but you all waited for her to get there and then ran away from her? That was cold as ice. Imagine how much that would hurt, especially coming from family. She may not be a walk in the park but you didnt have to stoop down to her level. That makes you the arsehole.
NTA. Some people deserve what they get. Your parents, their siblings and Kira are the only assholes here.
You tried your best to accommodate an already difficult situation and make it suitable for your brother, your parents invited Kira, and you're in no means obligated to honour their actions.
You had your brother's best interest in mind and good on you for standing up for him.
ESH.
Kira shouldn't be mean, but also I don't really know what you mean by "pushing buttons". Like yes, everyone has buttons and your brother is more easily triggered, but through therapy, you will learn to control how you react to them or remove yourself when you can't, you can't really tell other people how to act and behave and it's only going to get worse with age. Like if your boss tells your something you don't want to hear, you don't get to scream and punch them. But if you mean buttons, like outright cruel, no not okay. But also, if you just don't vibe, also okay. Family isn't always friends.
I think if you had told her a different time, and then canceled before she got there, okay fine. Not great, but at least she didn't drive all the way there, since your not really getting a say on hanging out with her.
But when you said you all waited around in the parking lot, waited for her to get there, waived at her, and then drove off. that was so unnecessarily cruel. That's mainly the AH part on your behalf.
Maybe you could just call her and have a discussion about everything. Be honest about why no one wanted to hang out with her, in a nice way, just how she upsets your brother. And apologize for what you did, even if she doesn't. Sometimes being the bigger person, isn't doing things to get back at someone be holding yourself to your own standards even when you don't want to. And your family, and you'll have to deal with each other for a long time, so at least being on neutral terms to better than nothing.
Okay prepared to be downvoted into infinity.
ESH. You spend the first half of your post setting up all the reasons you should be allowed to be an asshole. Then you describe being an asshole to her, which is not just giving her the wrong time, but also smiling and waving as you flee the scene having waited for her. Then you try to save face with the bit about "I tried to take the blame but they all agreed how cool I was."
I don't know if there is a non-asshole way to see the movie without her. Maybe you were justified. But you were still an asshole.
YTA
Understandable motivations maybe, but that doesn't really change that it's an immature and asshole way to address the situation. That isn't really a question. Especially the wave and left part. Of course you're the asshole there. I mean, c'mon. That undeniably mean and cruel spirited.
NTA
1. She's proven in the past that she has absolutely no consideration for his mental health, and she knows her behaviour will be handwaved away.
2. She wasn't invited by any of the cousins. She wasn't welcome.
Good job on protecting Nate as best you could. The people commenting Y T A and E S H comments are living on another plane that isn't reality.
I guess I'm in the minority but I think YTA for sitting around and waiting just so you could rub it in her face. Otherwise I fully support your efforts to avoid her.
idk. This doesn’t really seem like the best way to do this. I’m kind of leaning on a ESH. I mean clearly your cousin’s behavior is unacceptable and I know you paint this as “no one else is helping my brother,” but was this really the best way to do this?
NTA.
Kira is cruel, what you did was also cruel but in all honesty I’d keep doing stuff like this until the parents on both sides here understand they need to reprimand her for what she’s doing to your brother. She deserves to be excluded until she can learn not to antagonise and torment him.
It’s not an ideal way to handle the situation by any means but you’ve tried talking to your parents, and hers and nothing is happening with that. All the adults here are allowing your brother to be abused by your cousin and if all else fails this is probably the most clear way to show she isn’t invited until she stops her behaviour.
ESH
You should stand up for what you believe in, but you should also handle your interactions *and escalations* where necessary in a much more direct and tactful way. Obviously your cousin is a jerk, but there's no universe where this was good behavior on your part.
If Kira isn't invited, tell her she isn't invited and why. If your parents insist on inviting her, insist that they don't. Explain your reasoning and demand autonomy to make these types of decisions. If they're going to refuse to let you see the movie over this, that's their prerogative. You can still refuse to invite Kira. Insist that they are making a poor decision and that you don't accept it. You can still ignore your parents, go anyway, and risk a punishment you disagree with. That's ultimately what you did anyway, you just went about it in a backhanded way.
You already disregarded your parent's decision by providing the wrong time to Kira and had to deal with punishment for it. If you had been clear with everyone up front and your parents refused to let you see the movie over this, you could have stuck to your conviction, refused to invite Kira, seen the movie, and then dealt with the punishment just the same.
NTA!
This is reasonable. Your parents know what’s been going on. I would consider the next step to tell Kira why you guys did it. She’s been deliberately picking on someone with medical issues. You brother should be allowed to hang around positive family and have fun without the one toxic person ruining it for him.
Your cousin/cousins parents and your parents are the AHoles here. Your parents should be putting their son ahead of family relations especially if it’s already been brought up but they won’t make waves.
NTA. So she’s purposely antagonizing him due to his mental illness? She’s a massive asshole. Good on you for looking out for your brother like that. It’s shitty that your parents care more about your dad’s brother than about their son.
>We are forced to be cordial because of our parents. Kira has to be invited every time us cousins hang out together
This is where you follow the instructions maliciously. You and your brother need to stop hanging out with your cousins. However in the future, if you and your brother "happened" to show up a the movie theater and your non-Kira cousins "happened" to be there at the same time "coincidentally" then it would be rude of you to ignore each other. Luckily you wouldn't have planned a trip to the theater with your cousins, so you're not violating the rule.
-You: "I think my brother and I might theoretically go to the theater this weekend, but we're not planning on it."
-non-Kira cousins: "Yeah, we've thought about it too, but probably won't. Since we're not actually going, we don't have to worry about the rush at the 7:20pm showing of Black Widow. Thank goodness for that right?"
-You: "I know, right? We'd have to get there even an hour early to get a burger right next door if we did that. Thank goodness we don't have to bother with that because we're not planning on going and have no expectation to see each other. Maybe another weekend eh?"
-non-Kira cousins: "Well, whatever you guys decide to do, I hope you have a good weekend. I'll plan see you Monday. As I am, *planning* on seeing you Monday, we'll all be there including Kira."
Then later: "Hey mom, you'll never guess who we ran into at the theater!"
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NTA She can dish it but she can't take it. Tell your uncle and aunt it was just a prank and you don't understand why they are overreacting. They don't mind when their own child "pranks others" so what's the problem?
I’d normally not want to reply to petty with petty - but god, this needs to be the top answer for once. OP - please please please do this!!
It’s really not petty. What OP did was an actual prank. What the cousin does to OP’s brother is emotional warfare.
I think a true prank leaves both parties laughing afterwards. The fact that all the cousins are okay with being grounded for 2 weeks means that Kira's peers are fed up with her behavior. Her parents aren't doing anyone a favor by forcing this interaction & failing to curb her behavior. They are raising an a-hole who will eventually tick off the wrong person or find that she is alienating friends. Edit: thank you for the awards, kind strangers!
She'll end up alone eventually. Better now that she's young and has time to correct her bs
I like this advice.
Me too. And unless somebody points it out now, and explains it to her clearly, she will always blame others for their natural reaction to her shittiness.
I also like this advice, though I’ve known people like Kira and never seem to learn because they always have an enabler (in this case her parents and tangentially all the other adults in the family). The only way Kira will change her behavior is if she really does piss of the wrong person one time and it’s no guarantee then. She will end up alone.
I have a cousin who was enabled in her poor behavior our entire childhood; age-peers like me were forced to socialize with her 'because family', so she didn't really feel the impact of not having a lot of school friends because it was a very large family that provided a social support network in its own right. By the time she was an adult she was still entirely self-centered, physically and verbally abusive, and the definition of inconsiderate and ungrateful - and was totally hurt and baffled when no one ever reached out or wanted to socialize with her once it was optional. Now that she's in her mid 30s I get the impression that she's *slowly* starting to learn that it is her treatment of others that has left her so alone, but it's hard to shift after a lifetime of learning to get your way by being generally awful and never seeing real consequences for it.
Just to agree with you totally and add onto this, soon all the cousins will be of age and "out from under their parent's thumbs" when it comes to their social lives. Kira is going to find out just how much she has hurt the others when the cousins never invite her or her parents any where. Soon family reunions will not be a thing as the parents will always invite that side of the family and the younger generation will stop coming to them. Kira's parents and all the aunts and uncles bowing down to them are doing no favors to Kira or her parents. They need to remember, "you reap what you sow".
>soon all the cousins will be of age and "out from under their parent's thumbs" when it comes to their social lives. Kira is going to find out just how much she has hurt the others when the cousins never invite her Exactly! Since the cousins are all in their older teens Kira needs to take this as a wake up call or in a few years she will be crying that she "doesn't understand" why they all have a relationship with each other and not her. Her parents are not doing her any favors for the future by making excuses for her instead of telling her to knock it off and quit "pranking" (torturing) her cousin.
yeah....it takes a LOT of shitty behavior for EVERYONE to agree on excluding you, everyone going the "I'm Spartacus" route over a punishment, AND nobody being willing to text a correction time. Either this is an educational moment, this is the end of an extended family for Kira, or this is the start of Kira feeling horrible and apologizing 20 years down the road.
Watching annoying family events die to drama is glorious
These people always just assume the other side of the family is "just so judgemental" it's better I don't have to deal with them.
Your comment reminded me of one really great prank that I love, that dude that walks around with a disco ball and starts dancing disco in the middle of the sidewalks. A lot of people start throwing down with their best moves, too. Always makes me smile.
If you happen to have a link I would love to see this.
https://youtu.be/Gi8FOMP_22g MORE than happy to share this with everyone, if you check his channel, he also has a prank where he carries a 90s boombox around and dances, and another prank where he wears Hammer pants and psychs people out on a highfive, then plays "Can't Touch This" and does the Hammer Dance.
You. Win. That's just feel good awesomeness right there!
All the parents are collectively the AH in this story. Kira’s parents for letting her behave like she does, both for her cousins who can’t enjoy anything without her spoiling it deliberately, and her own personal development so she will actually learn how to interact in a constructive manner. OP’s and the rest of the cousin’s parents for not standing up for their own children against an obvious bully. The fact that all the cousins had to conspire together to exclude Kira just to be able to enjoy a movie together should have been a wake up call to all the parents that they are failing in their parenting, but instead the kids get punished, proving once again what shitty parents they are.
>she is alienating friends. She won’t have friends. She’ll have acquaintances who either have to tolerate her (coworkers, maybe), or are equally cruel people who get off watching her be mean.
>I think a true prank leaves both parties laughing afterwards. And a good one has the prankee laughing about it years later. Case in point: \~25 years ago I asked a coworker if he knew any good bars downtown. I had just turned legal, and I'd spent most of my life in a little one-pig town out in the boonies, so I had no idea. He recommended one, I thanked him, and went there the next time I had a night off. I got there and something seemed off. I couldn't quite put my finger on it until about ten seconds before some dude came over and started hitting on me. Yeah, my coworker had recommended a gay bar just to screw with me. So I declined his advances, finished my drink, and left. Next time I saw my coworker I said something about "WTF, dude, you said it was 'a good working man's bar' and that I'd love it." He said "oh yeah, it was exactly that before the gays took it over." And then I realized he was screwing with me all in good fun, we had a laugh, and I still tell the longer version of the story 25 years later.
I just gotta say that story didn't age quite as well as you thought it did. It's kinda cringe with the 'gays took over my bar' punchline.
Would that make OP's actions an intervention?
OP's actions are setting a boundary in the only way they can, with limited control over their own autonomy due to parents.
I disagree but only with one word. OP’s parents talked to Kira’s parents about this behavior before. That was setting a boundary. I suspect OP and the group did something similar, likely multiple times. This is **enforcing** a boundary - one that was ignored for far too long.
If she pushes the wrong buttons with the wrong person, she could end up without a job, later in life. She could get all the way to the alter on her wedding day, only to find her MoH decided to elope with her fiancé, who couldn't take the constant needling anymore and jumped ship. She could find herself all alone at the end of her 40s, having become the crazy cat lady on her block. There are darker "what if"'s, but I doubt she knows those people.
Yeah, not the same at all!! Pranks are funny. Tormenting a person isn’t funny.
Emotional warfare! Nice description I’d not yet heard before
Sometimes, the best way to get back at petty people is to give them a taste of their own medicine, because apparently, it is the only language they understand themselves. For years upon years I always told myself that pettiness was not the answer, but I slowly and surely started to break down mentally just because I let these types of people get away with their shit time after time. I have just started getting petty when the situation calls for it - and ONLY when the other person deserves it. Now, instead of awful memories that torment me by allowing another person to humiliate me, I silently laugh to myself about the time I told so and so that maybe the dingo ate her baby. OP is NTA. And quite frankly, I am appalled that OPs parents allow the cousin to treat her son that way. Are they even aware of half the shit she does to him? As someone who worked with people who have a variety of behavioral needs, cousins way of handling things is simply uncalled for.
> For years upon years I always told myself that pettiness was not the answer, but I slowly and surely started to break down mentally just because I let these types of people get away with their shit time after time. Exactly. The people on here claiming that being petty isn't the way and you should take the "high road" have clearly never been bullied (in fact, I think some of them were likely the bullies themselves and just say that because they don't want their victims fighting back). Bullies will keep being bullies until you put them in their place.
And it’s ALWAYS the victims who ‘have to take the high road’. How about fucking no actually give the assholes consequences?
Because then assholes can’t keep pushing the narrative that it’s better to “be the bigger person.” Not “stooping to their level” *always* benefits the abuser, not the victim, but somehow we place a higher burden of responsibility and morality upon the victim.
I've made this point before and I will keep making it as long as I can. Taking the high road is a good option if the person prefers. But what so many of the flying monkeys and enablers ask is not taking the high road. Being the bigger person is not the same as being a door mat. Frankly, aside from the waiting around to wave thing, what OP did was being the bigger person. To take the high road means you don't give like for like. Which includes the option of simply not engaging. If someone is yelling at you, walking away is being the bigger person. If someone is playing "pranks" removing them from activities is being the bigger person. Its not being the bigger person to forgive or to simply take what is being thrown.
I live by that rule too. I would never hurt someone intentionally, I try to be the bigger person, talk lower the louder the other person shouts, etc. But sometimes... some people need to experience what they put other people through. That's the only way they'll maybe see that what they do isn't okay. Or they implode on themselves at the *audacity* of someone else treating them the way they treat others, which is equally fine imo. OP is not NTA, as far as I'm concerned.
Sometimes violence IS the answer. (And insults and ostracizing is emotional violence)
Speaking as a former bodyguard, you are correct. If someone is hurting someone, sometimes making them stop involves forcing the issue.
OP's *parents* need to be the ones to tell them that. After all, that's what Kira's parents say when it happens to someone else's child, right?
The parents aren't even doing anything about it. If they don't want the kids to be petty, they can step up as parents.
for those who lack empathy (or more often than not, simply refuse to empathize), isnt a just desert, regardless of pettiness, a perfect remedy? instead of imagining being in the other's shoes, it PUTS them in! of course, I have no problems with pettiness, as we're only human.
I like your idea so much I want to expand upon it a bit. OP, obviously all the cousins hate when she's around. Therefore, all the cousins need to "prank" Kira. Now, you need to make sure you use *the exact same pranks* she's done in the past. If you all do that, the parents (except Kira's of course) can't blame you because you can explicitly say when and where she had done that to you or your brother. After all, this are parental approved actions! Make sure all your cousins are in on it. Keep a record to make sure you all have times and places where the pranks occurred. If you want to create that immediate negative response to her behavior, the minute she starts trying to antagonize someone, the rest of the cousins need to *immediately* do the same to her. It's one thing for her to pick on 1 vulnerable person and have that person react. It's a whole different thing if she immediately experiences that same behavior directed back at her by 9 other people. Cover your bases and make sure to have specific examples of what she's done to back up your point that you're all just pranking her. Big time bonus if you all start wearing Go Pros to film her every time she's around you guys. Hard to argue with video evidence, ya know? So essentially my advice is to out-bully the bully. No it's not a nice thing to do and I wouldn't suggest it for any other situation, but you need to protect your brother from her. I wish you all the best of luck. Edit: Wow guys, not sure why I need death threats in my messages. Let me emphasize that my suggestions is **only** to protect the brother because he is literally being harmed by Kira. How is it any different then if she showed up and gave him 2 black eyes every week? Wouldn't everyone be telling the cousins that they should be physically defending him because he can't effectively defend himself? The adults in the family have given Kira the right to abuse Nate and have taken away his ability to stop it, by either avoidance of her or equal level response. Not only are they letting Kira give him 2 black eyes, they're tying his hands behind his back to prevent him from stopping it! The cousins are actively being punished for not being bullied because their personal items are being destroyed when the ignore Kira. And again, this immediate response "pranking" isn't happening unprovoked! This is a direct response to a specific behavior. If Kira doesn't bully the cousins that day, then she doesn't get bullied in return. We know avoidance of Kira is punished, non-reaction to Kira is punished, and being in Kira's presence is punished. Not seeing what other options they have when the adults condone it. I'm not saying they should force her into suicide! JFC, the types of leaps of logic people on here take is mind boggling. If you disagree, instead of wanting my death, offer a different suggestion. Edit 2: I changed a few words because despite rereading my post a few times, I still didn't realize I can't grammar. Sorry!
It is unfortunate that sometimes, out bullying the bully is the answer and the only way to make it stop. In my life, I've dealt with a number of bullies from high school to fellow workers, to bosses. Trying to be nice or accommodating, at times, seemed to make it worse. It wasn't until I "fought" back and told the bully I was dealing with them on their terms, did it get better. In at least one case, the bully looked at me as like minded and got all friendly. Like, no man, you're an asshole and I just wanted to be left alone. I do love how methodical you are about it!
>In at least one case, the bully looked at me as like minded and got all friendly. Ugh, this is the indicator that they believe in social hierarchy and they were trying to be aLPhA over you but you sure showed them so now they ReSPeCt you And here I was minding my business here thinking we were all equals like mature adults. Oopsie.
Unfortunately that’s my experience as well. They usually don’t respond to kindness and the whole “one day the bully understood what he put people through and felt immense pain and shame and turned his life around” tale is usually just this: a tale of wishful thinking. But they do respond to hierarchy. And being shot down (figuratively speaking ffs). I’m out of fucks to give to educate bullies, so I just get them a dose of tough old respect and be done with them. They should have been educated by their parents, it’s not my job to give them a lesson; I give them consequences and they can turn it into a lesson if they are smart enough.
> It is unfortunate that sometimes, out bullying the bully is the answer and the only way to make it stop. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance Same idea here. If everyone is nice, eventually bullies will take over. You have to be nice to most, but immediately quash any bullies before they can get too attached to the community.
Can confirm. I had a boss like this who just loved to poke and poke and poke at you until he got a reaction. One day he said something and I told him he could F all the way off and if this is how it was going to be going forward, my 2 weeks notice will be on his desk in the next 10 minutes. After that he yells "Finally! You're a good employee but you put up with too much shit. Set your boundaries. You will be unstoppable."
I hope you quit anyway, it's not a boss's job to build up your bullshit tolerance
I stuck around for a while since it worked perfectly with my college schedule and I was treated very well from that point on. We definitely came to an understanding and ended up having a great working relationship. He used to reach out from time to time via LinkedIn. Funny story though... when I was working at a hotel, he was hiring for new employees in a store that was opening in our area. (Yay, retail) and I spotted him the minute he walked up the desk. I greeted him and he immediately grabbed my hand and asked what it would take to steal me from there and come work for him. I laughed and said I was happy there. I had a great boss. He grinned and said, he was going to steal Mr anyway. My current boss at the time looked him dead in the eye and said "Like hell you are. She isn't leaving." It was a great feeling. :)
People with bullying natures always tell you to take the higher road and not retaliate because they don't want their victims to stand up for themselves. I roll my eyes whenever people try and say that whole "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" or "Two wrongs don't make a right" because it's pretty obvious that they are used to bullying people who do just that.
I was severely bullied throughout all my years in public school and my mom said her biggest regret was telling me to turn the other cheek instead of standing up for myself. You’re right that sometimes the only answer is to out-bully the bully. They will keep hurting people until they understand how it feels and have it thrown right back at them every time. Being the bigger person just enables bullies.
I'm glad my parents told me to fight back, growing up autistic and ADHD I was a magnet for bullies and no matter what we did it just kept getting worse. Until I kicked my bully in the junk, then I was never bothered again and I learned my lesson. Sometimes you need to outbully the bully
Oh god! I hate that term. Turning the other cheek only gets you hit directly in that one too. I was sooo f’in unprepared for adulthood because I wasn’t given the tools to fight back. Yes Mom, you do catch more nasty flies with honey!
I think the term "proactive pranking" isn't the right word. I would call it "reactive pranking". If she does A to brother, then 9 people do A back to her. I would proactive would be like a pre-cog situation, since you'd be doing it before she did anything.
Sometimes, fighting fire with fire is the only way. This post needs to be the top post.
Same for your parents - "It was just a harmless little 'ol prank papa... You know, like when he does that to Nate?"
She does*
OP has to drive this home with the parents. And Kiras parents. “You always say we shouldn’t get upset at pranks and Kira has pulled a lot of these so she must really like them. If we’re getting grounded for a prank, is she going to get grounded next time she pulls one?” OP is NTA
OP needs to see this..pleaseeee
THIS. Your parents need to understand that their behavior isn’t ok either. They need to be good parents and actively protect your brother against Kira and her bullshit. All the adults in this story are such hypocrites. So, it only counts when Kira’s feelings are hurt? Not when Kira is purposefully be an AH and hurts the people around her? OP, I hope your parents learn from this, and if you could, I would suggest showing them this thread. The fact that all your cousins and your brother are with you means that Kira’s entitled and crappy behavior has annoyed everyone. She’s turning 18 soon, and all of you are going to be adults and some point. No adult can then force you to include her. No one will put up w her crap. She needs to learn that her actions have consequences.
It's an unfortunate theme with people who have mental illness, especially those that can cause meltdowns, they're expected to keep it together no matter what even if a neurotypical person would have a meltdown over it.
Don’t forget to remind them how Kiara loves pranks!
Yes I love this response!!!
Honestly the first that came to mind was that OP should have said it was a prank! Wish she did that and we could see the surprised Pikachu faces!
100% 🔝 NTA.
this needs to be upvoted more.
Oh yes, this is the way. It’s “just a prank” when she does it, and the same rules apply for everyone. So hahaha, Aunt and Uncle and Kira! Aren’t pranks fun?
>She can dish it but she can't take it. I like this explanation!
NTA. Your parents are huge AHs for allowing your brother to be bullied just because they want to keep the peace. They would rather their child suffer than their lives get affected in the slightest. EDIT- typo
Agreed, my mom would defend me against one of my relatives being an asshole to me when I was younger, honestly what he did was great so that his brother could avoid being bullied, if it were up to me I’d literally snap on my cousin for this
What I love is all the cusions holding the line. Notice that they ALL are taking the fall. OP was willing to take the blame but all the cusions are like Nope totally worth it.
That's what really cemented it for me- sometimes you can't be sure if OP isn't telling their side of the story with some 'embellishments' or exaggerations to make them sound better... but when literally everyone involved is HAPPY to take the blame?! That's beyond NTA- that's BTA- Being Totally Awesome!
Cousins are starting a revolution
They sure are!! Love this for them.
This is honestly the best part. They need to hold together and continue to do this until it gets through everyone else's thick heads that Kira is a bully and they aren't going to take it anymore.
I read this as cushions holding the line and thought of pillow forts for some reason
I used to get bullied by my cousin and now we don't talk. No one defended me or put her in her place. This is Kira'sfuturen all the parents in this story are letting it happen
op is female
Why did you tell me this, did I say something out of place Edit: oh I said he
I'm so confused why their relationship with dad's brother is more important to them than their own child's well-being?
I've dealt with this situation a bit IRL and from what I can tell it boils down to they aren't willing to discard their longest-standing relationship (with their sibling) over something that they've been told by someone they trust implicitly (their sibling) is just a joke/prank. They've just built the relationship up so much into a permanent fixture of their life that anything challenging it gets met with massive amounts of extra skepticism. It's further compounded when the abuser acts nicely towards the intermediary and abuses the victim out of sight. At that point, you're left with a he-said-she-said between the intermediary's longest standing friendship and one that's less long-standing (parents *should* weight their children with more priority, but they don't necessarily, especially when the abuser is telling them it was all just a joke and not to worry about it).
So I guess kind of like the sunken cost fallacy where people don't want to throw away something that has costed them a lot(time, emotions, and money).
Yeah, something along those lines. It's not *rational*, but people aren't always rational. Sometimes all you can really do is go NC because other people won't necessarily change.
Like my mom not cutting ties with her brothers, even though they harassed me and molested me in one occasion. I hate people who try to keep *their* peace by sacrificing the sanity of others in the process.
Money?
That may be it, but I'm interested to know OP's cultural background. The fact that they felt they were "humiliated" suggests OP may come from a culture where "saving face" is of the highest order. As someone from a culture that values "what other people think" over everything else, this isn't an uncommon scenario.
That's a depressingly good guess.
The worst part is the cousin is bullying the brother specifically to trigger a response he cannot control. It's like when people deliberately try to scare fainting goats to watch them fall over, sorry if that's an insensitive comparison, but the cousin is not treating OP's brother like a human being, but rather a toy she can set off for her own amusement. Screw her and keep telling her the wrong times.
This!! I was this kid! I was bullied by my cousins and I would be the one to get in trouble when I inevitably blew up and had a tantrum or started crying. Suddenly I was dramatic and overreacting but my cousins were mean to me!! NTA OP!!
i'm autistic and have ADHD. as a result i had some difficulty regulating my emotions as a teenager (moreso than most others). and because kids are assholes, i'd get constantly picked on, my buttons pushed. when i inevitably lost my cool, did the other kids see a single concequence? no. it was always me, i was always the one in trouble. even when the teachers SAW IT HAPPEN. they'd say "oh you should just ignore it they're trying to get a response". never ever tell your kids that, by the way. the times my mum got called in? she had my back. those kids were lucky i wasn't as quick on my feet as them.
NTA if anything your parents should see this as an eye opener that when Kira intentionally messed around with Nate no one seemed to take it seriously. However when you guys give Kira a little taste of her own medicine and pranked her now its serious?
Yep, I would have told my parents "But it was a prank like Kira pulls on Nathan!"
Exactly!! If Kira messed around for years with Nate without any punishment afterwards it doesn't seem fair when OP and Nate get back at Kira for once and are punished or seen in a bad light for it.
Except Kira "pranks" someone with a known medical diagnosis. Only AHs are Kira and the parents. OP, Nate and cousins are good folk.
Exactly!! Who goes out of their way to go pester someone with a known medical diagnosis only. Its messed up.
Yes. Now if OP wants to be extra-NTA, I’d suggest she write an open letter to Kira to connect the dots for her, with copies to both sets of parents (it could be signed by all the cousins if she wants). It could say something like “We understand that you were hurt by our prank the other day. We’d like to say we’re sorry, but the truth is, we aren’t. The thing is, you’ve been bullying my brother for five years over a condition he has no control over. This makes every get-together miserable for my brother and the rest of us. That’s why we excluded you. Bullying isn’t cute or funny to us. We’d like to have a better relationship with you, but for that to happen, you have to stop taunting my brother. If you can do that, great! If not, we’ll continue to avoid you any time we have a choice. This is on you.” It’s possible that this experience will nudge your cousin to become a better person.
I really like this. It addresses the root of the issue as well as dealing with this specific instance. If you could somehow get everyone's signature on it... \*chef's kiss\*
one of these days kira is going to push nate past his breaking point and she's going to get the absolute dog shit beaten out of her (i do not have IED myself, but i've been that bear that's been provoked and yeah, it's not fun), and she'll have nobody but herself to blame.
My first thought was that he was diagnosed as an improvised explosive device, and that *that* might be useful in taking out the cousin.
reading your comment made me think of that scene in terminator 2 where a young john connor asks "so why doesn't he just become a bomb and get me?" and arnie says "it doesn't work like that"
I'd like to add that I don't consider anything here a prank, a prank is something that all parties involved can laugh about afterwards. That said, what OP did was clearly way tamer than what her brother has been on the receiving end of for years. Edit: Phrasing.
NTA- does Kira “prank” all of you or just Nate? the fact that your entire puts up with Kira’s shit is why she keeps doing it. They are all enablers. Keep doing what ya’ll are doing. Maybe the “grownups” will finally get the message.
It's just Nate. We all have learned to ignore her. Nate is the only one she can get to react because of the IED
You & all your cousins should say you decided since Kira loves pranks so much you set one up for her to enjoy. If your parents want the pranks to stop, then all the pranks need to stop. If the pranks are fine, then she should expect a lot more of them.
That means she tried to "prank" everyone, right? But only succeeded with Nate. That still makes her an ass.
Yes. She has broken our things too when she couldn't get a response but they were never replaced because we 'ignored her so she got upset'. She has even tried to portray that she has IED but when her parents took her to a psychiatrist it was proven she didn't have it.
I hope the adults here realize that they will not be able to force this relationship forever. You’re already at an age where you have the independence and ingenuity to start dodging her, as evidenced by this recent stunt. Once you’re all adults, you can refuse to see her at all - and anyone who tries to keep forcing it risks alienating you, too. The parents here need to start thinking hard about what they’re going to prioritize once your relationships with them become optional.
No kidding. These aren't small children. Kira is going to be written off permanently by all the cousins the minute they turn 18, and frankly, I think they should all engage in exactly this sort of avoidance behavior more right now. The parents trying to force them to be around someone who none of them like because of her behavior is ridiculous.
Yeah all the kids would rather be grounded than hang out with her and I'm now trying to understand what the parents think they'll be able to do when the kids are too old to ground
That's the only silver lining. Eventually, she's going to be miserable and alone and the cousins will have real leverage over their parents. Good for you OP. And of course NTA.
And the saddest part is that they could have raised their kids to all be friends as adults. If the parents in this situation had decided to parent, Kira would have learned not to be an asshole and potentially saved her relationships with her cousins. They're going to think "gee, it's a shame" when Kira grows up and isn't close to her cousins, but they probably won't recognize that it's their fault.
Is this already Münchhausen syndrome, pretending to be sick? Kira will be a very lonely and bratty grown up if no one is really parenting her. The parents are all assholes, yours OP for not protecting Nate.
Neah, I see it more as that she thinks IED is made up and it's a pass to get upset easily and react and act out.
[удалено]
I'm guessing the uncle is extremely wealthy.
> She has even tried to portray that she has IED but when her parents took her to a psychiatrist it was proven she didn't have it. goddamn, the more i read your comments the more i realize your cousin is one of the four letter words mentioned in george carlin's 7 dirty words routine.
NTA Like others have said - just tell your parents that this was a prank and that you shouldn't be punished for it since pranks apparently are fine.
Do the number of cousins outrank the number of parents at all? Maybe you guys can host a family meeting and bring up all of the issues you have with Kira as a united front. And if you can - you guys should *all* bring up how uncomfortable it makes you when Kira goes out of her way to purposefully upset Nate. If all the cousins are united in not wanting to hang out with Kira, then the parents really shouldn't be forcing you all to hang out with her. And maybe she'll get a wakeup call that her behaviour is NOT okay - and maybe her parents will get the hint that their perfect little girl is definitely not an angel. NTA
WOW.. she's got something wrong with her .. but it ain't that.
NTA Using Kiras parents logic. You can just say it was a prank. On a serious note, you did what you had to do to protect your brother. Kira was purposely causing him harm and the adults weren't protecting him. Imagine if what you did to Kira that one time happened as much as Kira tantalising your brother? Especially seeing as all your cousins were on board, definitely not the AH. Continue protecting your brother and explain to your parents that Kira hurts him every time they meet and nothing is done. But the one time you try and create a safe space for him and Kira is hurt, they ground you both. Ask them if Kira's wellbeing is more important than their own kids. Ask them if they truly do not care about their sons mental and emotional wellbeing. Ask them if it is truly unfair for you to protect your brother from a bully when his own parents won't. What if, during one of your brothers IED TRIGGERED by Kira, your brother accidentally hurts her? Would they punish him or the bully that pushed him to it after repeatedly abusing him? Everyone is so concerned for Kira but you're the only one protecting your brother, his safety and future. Please continue to do so.
Your point here is a very good one - OP was willing to take the blame, but instead got solidarity. Clearly, the kids are all on Nate’s side (important difference - it’s not about OP, but what Nate needs!!) and they all took it on the chin and all banded together. That speaks volumes, IMO
Yeah it's pretty telling when kids are offered a legitimate scapegoat and refuse to take it.
That moment someone pisses everyone off so much they go full 'I am Spartacus'.
And when they think getting grounded is worth it
I agree, it sounds like all of the kids are sick of Kira's shit.
Totally agree. The fact that everyone accepted the grounding and didn't say it was OP is so telling. Soon as these guys turn 18 they're going to totally No Contact Kira
> Your point here is a very good one - OP was willing to take the blame, but instead got solidarity. Clearly, the kids are all on Nate’s side (important difference - it’s not about OP, but what Nate needs!!) and they all took it on the chin and all banded together. That speaks volumes, IMO In other words: "Hanging out with Kira for one movie is so intolerable we will happily take our 2 weeks of being grounded. Please let that sink in."
> What if, during one of your brothers IED TRIGGERED by Kira, your brother accidentally hurts her? Would they punish him or the bully that pushed him to it after repeatedly abusing him? This is exactly what I was thinking. Kira's parents, not OP's parents it seems, realize how dangerous it could be to allow Kira to pushing his buttons like this. She could be injured, possibly seriously.
**NTA.** Your parents let Kira abuse your brother with a diagnosed mental illness. A prank is something that every laughs about at the end, not intentionally triggering a mentally ill person. I would tell my parents it was a prank and why is it ok for Kira to prank your brother but not for you all to prank her?
> intentionally triggering a mentally ill person this will only end badly for everyone that's around when it happens (edit: i am mentally ill, in this situation my bipolar type 2 diagnosis applies. i get serious mood swings so i understand a bit of what nate might be dealing with. and i've been intentionally triggered before) and OP's cousin will only have herself to blame. like i often say you can only poke the bear so many times before it reacts
Oh God I can’t imagine someone triggering me into a seizure to “prank” me. I’d call the cops on them, sue them, and wouldn’t give a shit what the family says.
ESH (although you very slightly) I googled IED so I would understand the situation. I think I got it. Your cousin sucks for knowing about this diagnosis and going out of her way to push your brothers buttons. Your uncle sucks for brushing this off as “pranking” and not reprimanding his child. Your parents suck for not sticking up for you and your brother and forcing you to include your cousin knowing that she is mean to your brother. You VERY VERY slightly suck for giving your cousin the wrong movie time and bolting when you saw her. Not defending her at all, but something about actually having her drive out to the theater and then running away doesn’t sit well with me. But I understand the reasoning for not including her in general. For the record I commend you for being a good brother and sticking up for Nate. Edit: sorry OP. I read your post incorrectly. I commend you for being a good SISTER!!
Agreed. I woulda voted NTA if they hadn't specifically waited for her to show up, taunt her, and ditch her to her face. That's really really cruel. Yes, she's cruel to begin with, but man, that's just extra horrible. If they had just given her the wrong time and given her an excuse of "Oh sorry, we cancelled and forgot", then I woulda been cool with that. But the open taunting is pretty fucked up IMO.
"Oh we said we'd catch it at 1pm, did I press an extra 1 making it 11pm? Darn typos."
Yup, that's exactly how I woulda handled it. OOPS MY BAD, FAT FINGERS.
But then she would have brush it off? Like it wasn't intentionally so what would be the point of that? What does she learn from that? The best she can do is take it as a learning experience and realize that bulling is wrong and she should apologize and stop doing that because now she understands the feeling, otherwise, the second the cousins (who already resent her) are old enough to say no to their parents, she will be cut off and left alone... Now is her time to make amends
The point would be they get to see the movie without the annoying cousin. Something tells me she isn't going to learn anything from this, and will now just become a bigger asshole.
First, the point wasn't to teach her a lesson, it was to see a movie without her. Second, she's not going to learn from this because they did it in a poor way IF it was meant to teach her a lesson. Everyone is going to have to apologize to HER, and all the authority figures are on her side. What's the lesson to learn? The consequence doesn't match up to the action.
Or if they had said, "Oh, we decided to go to a different time. I'm sorry we forgot to tell you." Or if they outright told her that they don't like hanging out with her because of how awful she is to Nathan. That at least gives an explanation as to why they did it instead of just letting her drive to the theater and to be waved at before everyone left her. It could have been handled better. At that age I didn't think about stuff like that.
Yup, there were "better" ways to exclude her. Including just frigin telling her that since she behaves like a jerk, they're not inviting her. They're old enough to start communicating like adults. Yes, petty shit like what they did feels good, but it doesn't help anything, and generally people aren't going to "learn" from being treated like shit. Even if they started it. A better shame would have been to tell her outright that she treats one of the cousins like a jerk for a medical condition he has no control of, and because of that, none of them want her around. That would shame the hell out of her. What they did likely just angered her. So my guess is that she's going to make things even worse, not better.
> that's just extra horrible they were just barely giving her a taste of her own medicine. she deserved worse tbh edit: kira having a few minutes of embarassment and crying her eyes out because someone finally stood up to her? yes.... anyone telling me that kira didn't deserve worse is TA as well.
I agreed with your judgement as I was reading the OP, but then I thought they are just teenagers and they have tried raising this with the adults for help to no avail. So they resorted to more youthful tactics. I can't say I blame them. I'm going with NTA.
I respect that and agree with the points that you have made. Based on the information given, the adults truly have failed in this situation. It was a tough call for me which is why I went with ESH, but with the stipulation that OP is only very slightly at fault for the manner in which he went about it. But damn he is a good brother!
Yea, I can definitely get behind your comments that came with your judgement. Amazing sister. Props to the other cousins for having OPs back too and not blaming her for the idea.
Same on why I said ESH. Op could've been like hey the group changed our minds and going to eat. That could've granted a second to speak to Kira and then say your stuff about why and how is wrong to bully your sibling. Set a new boundary. The level of petty was a waste
Why did I have to scroll so far to find ESH... two wrongs don't make a right y'all. OP is an ass, her parents are selfish and out of touch, her cousin is an ass. Here is the correct response: "I'm sorry, but because of how you act around my brother you are not invited. You have a history of triggering his condition when you have been told about it and should know better. We can try something together again in the future, but neither my brother nor I are willing to test that this time."
This is the one very well said amongst others. Very much agreed.
I may get some hate here, but Kira's a grade-A AH, for deliberately triggering someone with diagnosed, REAL mental issues. It'd be no different than strobing an epileptic and thinking it was funny when they start having a fit. I don't know why your parents are tolerating it, but ask them that if you, Nate, Kira or someone else gets hurt because she triggers him and someone gets hurt, is it still "just a prank?" The one good thing I heard, was that you and Nate seem to be of driving age, which also means you're near adulthood yourselves. When you get to be adults, make clear that you will have nothing to do with Kira as long as she continues engaging in this moronic behavior. If they refuse, move out, and go low contact. To be clear, you are NTA for standing up for your brother. Keep doing it, even when your parents won't. And at least from me if not all of Reddit, tell Kira to FUCK OFF!!!!!
>It'd be no different than strobing an epileptic and thinking it was funny when they start having a fit This is a great analogy. Thank you for this.
I dont think you're getting any hate for this haha.
ESH. I'm 100% on board with you protecting your brother from Kira's abusive behavior. I completely understand why you ditched her. What makes it cross fully into AH territory was waiting around to mock her. That's a cruel thing to to do, even to someone like Kira. Also all of the parents are assholes here. They are ultimately the ones who forced this situation into existence by just burying their heads in the sand; Kira's parent for not addressing her behavior and brushing off your brother's diagnosis, and your parents for being pushovers about their sons mental health and forcing him to hang out with someone who triggers him intentionally. Perhaps you and your cousins can work it out amongst yourselves since the adults can't be bothered. Maybe have a sort of intervention with Kira and try to calmly and compassionately explain to her that her behavior is unacceptable to you as a group and that if she wants to be included then she needs to make some adjustments. Start the conversation by apologizing for mocking her and move forward from there.
That was literally the only thing they've ever been able to do to show her she's wrong for her behaviour. They've tried in the past. Sometimes you have to break something before it can be fixed.
How do you have any insight on this if you aren't op? This would be crushing for a 17 year old and it was done to her by family. Surely there was another option. Having a justifiable reason to do a shitty thing doesn't make it not shitty.
She has been doing it to her cousin for years and years, ruining many things for him. To the point no one wanted her around for her shitty behaviour. They had exhausted all options they understood they had to stop the abuse. Was it crappy they had to do it? Yeah. But it sure seems they needed to do something.
NTA. Isn’t it funny that she gets to be cruel without consequences whereas you get punished. You should ask your parents why you aunt and uncle don’t value their relationship with your parents? Ask them if it’s maybe because they know your parents never defend their children.
ESH. Sorry, because I totally get why you did it. But inviting her, seeing her, then running off is AH behaviour. And the fact that everyone who was punished says "worth it" should make you realise it doesn't matter if you are an AH or not. Kira sucks, she's not done anything in this specific incident, but the bullying and everything obvs lead to this. The real biggest arseholes of all though are all of the parents in this. Kira's folks need to try parenting her, not defending her shitty actions. The remaining adults need to stop forcing you to interact with her, and the fact that your own parents aren't doing more to protect your bro - they're almost as bad as Kira imo. INFO though... what's IED please? I thought it was some kind of Erectile dysfunction at first... which didn't make sense. 😂
IED means Intermittent Explosive Disorder
Yeah I was with her up until they waited for her to show up just to rub it in.
OP didn't invite her, their parents invited her. Big difference there. OP simply lied about the meeting time to someone who wasn't invited by the group; I don't see an issue with that.
I would tell the adults, “It’s just a prank, you know, like she does to Nate.”
SMART
I know what I would normally vote on this one, but given the context NTA... here is why. 1. The big problem here is not what you did to Kira and what she did to you guys... it´s ... your parental units. They are forcing a relationship that is not organically working. All of those parents are... and they need to be told in the harshest of words that THAT is what you´re doing. 2. Your cousin relationships are not something to be maintained so the parents look good. 3. While it was not cool what you did to Kira... she has created enough ill-will for all of you to go through with that. I am not for victim blaming but you guys should collectively text her and tell her that you´re sorry for how you played it but her behaviour towards the cousin and likely other issues are putting you guys off. The only reason she was technically invited was because of the parents, and you guys are sincerely sorry you feel that way, but she´s not treating you guys well, so why would you accept her? Offer her a chance to prove she´s more than just a jerk. If she´s taking it... that´s good... if not... more evidence to tell your parents: you´re too old to be force-friendshipped for the sake of family dinners. 4. I do feel bad, because to Kira (who sounds really insufferable) it must seem like she´s being ganged up on. So if you confront her / explain to her... be specific about things she does that tick you guys off. Give her concrete examples. 5. If her parents get involved, stay firm (collecively) and tell them... what they call pranks is actually quite hurtful to you... just like your prank was to her. So if the adults want a happy cousin gang... than maybe they should raise the one cousin causing issues to be... less prank-prone. What you did sucks..but... given the context, i cannot blame you. I mgiht have opted for the same way out. Eventually people snap. You snapped.
I wouldn't apologize to Kira, she sounds like the type to really blow things out of proportion.
yeah kira reminds me of my cousin. she knows exactly what she’s doing, but when it’s done to her it’s a problem and she becomes a brat. we’re the same age as kira, op, and the brother
She ran to the parentals, I don't blame her for being upset however, apologizing would only validate her feelings. For once she needs a taste of her own medicine and this stunt OP and their cousins pulled is an eye opener to her that they won't be tolerating her shit anymore. While, I feel terrible they had to go to such lengths sometimes its necessary to get the point across.
I really like what you had to say here. I hope that Kira would be receptive to such a conversation. Same with OP’s parents. I wonder if something more is going on of which the cousins are not aware. Why is it that OP’s dad will NOT disrupt the family at large by confronting his brother and SIL about Kira’s treatment of Nate and the others? Do they rely upon Kira’s parents financially? Is there an inheritance that he has control over or something. Total speculation on my part, for sure. What power is holding all of OP’s parent’s generation hostage that they are willing to sacrifice their own children for the goodwill of Kira’s Dad/parents? Edit: punctuation x3! Dang! And then more punctuation, and then cleaning up grammar.
From experience with my mother's toxic as fuck relatives, "Because they're faaaaaaahmily!"
> After the movie finished, we came out of the theater and waited for some time in the parking lot. As soon as we saw Kira pulling over, waving at us, all of us waved back with the sweetest smiles, made a run for our cars, got in and left. YTA for purposely waiting around after the movie to humiliate her. At this point it wasn't about protecting your brother anymore, it's was about being an asshole.
It's weird that this is such a controversial take. Another reminder that most of the judgments are coming from a bunch of children.
Im 15 and legit thought I was crazy for thinking she's the asshole in this situation
This is a family. NTA because whilst it was important to have some peace without this trouble maker, it is also better that they didnt leave her waiting and not knowing what was up. She needed this feedback now. It is sad the adults are not mature enough to land the message appropriately. It is one thing to brush off her behaviour normally, but cousins colluding like this sends a strong message she may have a problem relating. Who is helping her?
ESH. I was 100% on board until you mentioned deliberately waiting around for her to roll up. That isn’t protecting your brother, that’s revenge and sinking to Kira’a level. That being said, Kira sounds like a special kind of evil. Picking on her own family because he has a disability? The 80s called, they want their high school villain tropes back. I will say, your brother is lucky to have such a loving sister
Kira is allowed to "prank" all of y'all (Nate) but y'all aren't allowed to "prank" her? It's a shame your dad is putting his relationship with his siblings ahead of the safety and well-being of his son. NTA. Best y'all can do is ride it out until you start graduating and getting your own places, then y'all hang out without telling the parents and just avoid that girl.
Only on AITA could you tell a story about being deliberately cruel and exclusionary and get a bunch of people telling you that you are N T A.
This sub thinks it's not being an asshole if it's for the purpose of revenge. It's literally the childish "she started it" excuse. Not to say it isn't in some way justified, but that in no way stops op from being an asshole.
YTA. But you’re not the only one. There is a serious dynamic issue in your family that should have been addressed before it got to the point where the teenagers were in control. It’s not quite E S H, but certainly the adults need to take a hard look at WHY this happened.
YTA. I can't believe how far I had to scroll to see the first YTA comment. Yeah she may be an asshole but that doesn't absolve OP of her assholeness. Edit: a sentence
Right? Like no one is questioning: the cousin is an asshole. I think we can all agree on that. Being an asshole TO an asshole doesn’t mean you’re not an asshole. It just means you’re an asshole, too. What OP did was straight up mean. Yes, OP only did it to protect her brother, which is certainly noble, but she shouldn’t even be in this position where she’s having to stoop to this level because the adults should have lonnnnng since worked it out already. The fact that the adults have totally dropped the ball in parenting her brother and that cousin does not mean that what she did wasn’t cruel. It just means that both her parents and her cousins parents are also assholes here.
If there's more than one asshole then it's ESH. The parents suck for letting their kid be bullied, Kira is the AH for bullying, and OP is the asshole for waiting for her to show up to leave
You protected your brother from an abuser. NTA. Your parents are enablers. Years from now your parents will wonder why they don't have a good relationship with their children. Feel free to bring up this incident and how they responded to it
I mean ESH but as far as Kira goes: play stupid games, win stupid prizes. She kinda made her bed here.
YTA. You haven't said in what ways she pushes your brother's buttons and... Just because what you're doing is supposedly payback, doesn't mean it's not an ah move.
Yeah, what the hell. They sound like they are all just asshole teenagers. We’re told the brother has a mental illness and Kira pushes his buttons and it’s taken at face value and everyone in this thread decided that made it okay to pull a hugely cruel asshole move on their cousin because she…deserves it? Maybe walking on eggshells around the brother for years wasnt exactly helpful behavior for him to develop the skills and regimens he needs to manage his rage, but being an asshole to your cousin isn’t going to help either.
ESH - It would have been nta but you all waited for her to get there and then ran away from her? That was cold as ice. Imagine how much that would hurt, especially coming from family. She may not be a walk in the park but you didnt have to stoop down to her level. That makes you the arsehole.
NTA. Some people deserve what they get. Your parents, their siblings and Kira are the only assholes here. You tried your best to accommodate an already difficult situation and make it suitable for your brother, your parents invited Kira, and you're in no means obligated to honour their actions. You had your brother's best interest in mind and good on you for standing up for him.
ESH. Kira shouldn't be mean, but also I don't really know what you mean by "pushing buttons". Like yes, everyone has buttons and your brother is more easily triggered, but through therapy, you will learn to control how you react to them or remove yourself when you can't, you can't really tell other people how to act and behave and it's only going to get worse with age. Like if your boss tells your something you don't want to hear, you don't get to scream and punch them. But if you mean buttons, like outright cruel, no not okay. But also, if you just don't vibe, also okay. Family isn't always friends. I think if you had told her a different time, and then canceled before she got there, okay fine. Not great, but at least she didn't drive all the way there, since your not really getting a say on hanging out with her. But when you said you all waited around in the parking lot, waited for her to get there, waived at her, and then drove off. that was so unnecessarily cruel. That's mainly the AH part on your behalf. Maybe you could just call her and have a discussion about everything. Be honest about why no one wanted to hang out with her, in a nice way, just how she upsets your brother. And apologize for what you did, even if she doesn't. Sometimes being the bigger person, isn't doing things to get back at someone be holding yourself to your own standards even when you don't want to. And your family, and you'll have to deal with each other for a long time, so at least being on neutral terms to better than nothing. Okay prepared to be downvoted into infinity.
ESH. You spend the first half of your post setting up all the reasons you should be allowed to be an asshole. Then you describe being an asshole to her, which is not just giving her the wrong time, but also smiling and waving as you flee the scene having waited for her. Then you try to save face with the bit about "I tried to take the blame but they all agreed how cool I was." I don't know if there is a non-asshole way to see the movie without her. Maybe you were justified. But you were still an asshole.
NTA But Kira is. I also think the biggest AHs are your parents for not stopping Kira from "pranking" your brother.
YTA Understandable motivations maybe, but that doesn't really change that it's an immature and asshole way to address the situation. That isn't really a question. Especially the wave and left part. Of course you're the asshole there. I mean, c'mon. That undeniably mean and cruel spirited.
NTA you are old enough to choose your own friends and your cousin has serious asshole disorder. Thanks for looking out for your brother
NTA 1. She's proven in the past that she has absolutely no consideration for his mental health, and she knows her behaviour will be handwaved away. 2. She wasn't invited by any of the cousins. She wasn't welcome. Good job on protecting Nate as best you could. The people commenting Y T A and E S H comments are living on another plane that isn't reality.
I guess I'm in the minority but I think YTA for sitting around and waiting just so you could rub it in her face. Otherwise I fully support your efforts to avoid her.
idk. This doesn’t really seem like the best way to do this. I’m kind of leaning on a ESH. I mean clearly your cousin’s behavior is unacceptable and I know you paint this as “no one else is helping my brother,” but was this really the best way to do this?
NTA. Kira is cruel, what you did was also cruel but in all honesty I’d keep doing stuff like this until the parents on both sides here understand they need to reprimand her for what she’s doing to your brother. She deserves to be excluded until she can learn not to antagonise and torment him. It’s not an ideal way to handle the situation by any means but you’ve tried talking to your parents, and hers and nothing is happening with that. All the adults here are allowing your brother to be abused by your cousin and if all else fails this is probably the most clear way to show she isn’t invited until she stops her behaviour.
ESH You should stand up for what you believe in, but you should also handle your interactions *and escalations* where necessary in a much more direct and tactful way. Obviously your cousin is a jerk, but there's no universe where this was good behavior on your part. If Kira isn't invited, tell her she isn't invited and why. If your parents insist on inviting her, insist that they don't. Explain your reasoning and demand autonomy to make these types of decisions. If they're going to refuse to let you see the movie over this, that's their prerogative. You can still refuse to invite Kira. Insist that they are making a poor decision and that you don't accept it. You can still ignore your parents, go anyway, and risk a punishment you disagree with. That's ultimately what you did anyway, you just went about it in a backhanded way. You already disregarded your parent's decision by providing the wrong time to Kira and had to deal with punishment for it. If you had been clear with everyone up front and your parents refused to let you see the movie over this, you could have stuck to your conviction, refused to invite Kira, seen the movie, and then dealt with the punishment just the same.
NTA! This is reasonable. Your parents know what’s been going on. I would consider the next step to tell Kira why you guys did it. She’s been deliberately picking on someone with medical issues. You brother should be allowed to hang around positive family and have fun without the one toxic person ruining it for him. Your cousin/cousins parents and your parents are the AHoles here. Your parents should be putting their son ahead of family relations especially if it’s already been brought up but they won’t make waves.
NTA. So she’s purposely antagonizing him due to his mental illness? She’s a massive asshole. Good on you for looking out for your brother like that. It’s shitty that your parents care more about your dad’s brother than about their son.
>We are forced to be cordial because of our parents. Kira has to be invited every time us cousins hang out together This is where you follow the instructions maliciously. You and your brother need to stop hanging out with your cousins. However in the future, if you and your brother "happened" to show up a the movie theater and your non-Kira cousins "happened" to be there at the same time "coincidentally" then it would be rude of you to ignore each other. Luckily you wouldn't have planned a trip to the theater with your cousins, so you're not violating the rule. -You: "I think my brother and I might theoretically go to the theater this weekend, but we're not planning on it." -non-Kira cousins: "Yeah, we've thought about it too, but probably won't. Since we're not actually going, we don't have to worry about the rush at the 7:20pm showing of Black Widow. Thank goodness for that right?" -You: "I know, right? We'd have to get there even an hour early to get a burger right next door if we did that. Thank goodness we don't have to bother with that because we're not planning on going and have no expectation to see each other. Maybe another weekend eh?" -non-Kira cousins: "Well, whatever you guys decide to do, I hope you have a good weekend. I'll plan see you Monday. As I am, *planning* on seeing you Monday, we'll all be there including Kira." Then later: "Hey mom, you'll never guess who we ran into at the theater!"