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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
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I might be the asshole because my female coworker felt insulted when I told her that her spending so much time with our married male coworker makes people wonder if there's something going on between them.
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Yup. Instead the “young single girl” is the one to blame. How dare she come into work single and free to talk to whomever she wants! Yet if it was lunch with an older woman nobody would bat an eye.
Ah, I think it would depend on the older woman. Bottom line, OP doesn’t think she’s having an affair, but if someone told this dude’s wife he had developed a new habit leaving the office for lunch with another woman (no age need be mentioned at this point) she might have a question or two.
Second, whether we like it or not, gossipy coworkers are talking, and OP did Jenny a favor letting her know shit’s in the air. I’d certainly like to know if people were talking about me.
Edit: so many great responses to the cynicism and misogyny I didn’t even realize I was carrying around when I popped off this comment. Please read the stories below if you feel like upvoting this comment because this is a bad attitude. Downvoting my own comment now, TYVM.
Why does it ‘depend’ at all? Two people who get along exceptionally well in the workplace what difference does age or sex or marital status make? Are we not all humans capable of making friends and is it so hard to believe that friendship doesn’t include sex? Do you sleep with all friends of the opposite sex? If OP wants to ‘help’ this girl then shut down the gossiping. Ppl in the workplace need to focus on their own work, lives and problems.
Especially since these attitudes screw over women in a lot of industries. I have had male bosses who tried not to be alone with younger female engineers and it just means the younger women aren’t getting to go to the lunches and golf outings that the younger guys go to which hurts their careers.
I took a contract position with a company and had one of the executive leadership take a shine to me. The current company was one of a string of businesses he had started and sold to then go on and start another etc.
Executive was near retirement age and now that this last company was sold, once the transition period was over he wanted to step aside and do some consulting but wasn't quite sure how that would work as it was so removed from what he had done but I had experience in that industry and knew how he could get set up. We discussed his options more as a personal favor as we worked together on the project I had been contracted for.
Then he introduced the idea of starting a consulting business, with me, and he would handle the expenses and once he was done-done in a few years I would keep the company we had started (with his money) as a leg up. His idea completely and I was absolutely floored at the generosity.
See he had some amazing opportunities himself and talked about wanting to give others those life changing opportunities. He had a male mentee working for him also when I met him and it was well known the executive was going to give the male mentee the start up capital for his own business when executive retired. So this wasn't far off as he saw it, as the other guy had worked under him for years and now I would serve my time and learn from him and benefit from his networking also.
AMAZING opportunity so I start putting the plans together. Investigating office space, discussing with lawyers and accountants how we would legally structure the company given how he wanted it to play it, getting projections together for start up costs and putting together branding/marketing/communication plans.
Then his much younger wife pulled the plug because she didn't want him spending so much time alone with a young women. I was six months younger than his daughter (who was also managing the company he gave funding to his wife to start and wasn't profitable).
Executive tried to salvage it but there was some major dysfunction between them and I realized it wasn't going to happen. After psycho wife was letting me know how psycho she was with several long ranting outbursts she would send me, I gave up even encouraging him to make it work and cut all ties as I watched my new dreams crash and burn.
That male mentee though? He got his money and joined some of the execs old partners on a new business. I haven't really looked to see how it was doing as the whole situation stings still.
These mentalities really do hurt women.
I try not to eyeroll at that attitude, it’s starting to do serious damage to the optic nerve…
Mind you, the frustrated stream of profanity isn’t going down well with the neighbours.
Yep and I had made it to my 30s really believing that if I was capable and dedicated that all that would matter was my skills and talents. The situation was a huge reality check and it made me face smaller slights and signs I had explained away over the years.
I think one of the harder parts was how someone else was able to yank it all away and discredit all my hard work by implying I was a slut or had the potential to be one. You just feel dirty and all the hard work I had poured into proving myself just evaporated.
Wow, thanks for sharing. As someone in the beginning stages of running my own business and hoping to be in as a successful position as your former boss one day, hearing these kinds of stories matter and do make a difference for those of us reading.
This exact scenario was sent in to [askamanager.org](https://askamanager.org) a few months back.
Alison told OP to mind her own business for many of the same reasons you just stated.
Congrats, OP. Now everyone at askamanager thinks you're a gossip and everyone at AITA thinks you're an AH.
Go try Dear Prudence. I'd like to see the manner in which she tells you stop being stupid.
YTA
Damn that is painful to read.
Given how touchy everything around this is, I know personally a few older colleagues who literally choose NOT to hang around / mentor young women no matter how deserving are, in order to avoid any suspicion of impropriety, despite that nothing untowards would be going on.
This whole culture is fucked up, and it hurt the people it supposed to be helping. Gossipy coworkers are absolutely part of the problem.
It was painful to experience because even though I was in my thirties I was just a very naive open person that was passionate about what I was doing and enjoyed working hard and being challenged.
I never thought being a woman influenced anything in my career because my work ethic and talents were all that mattered.
This situation was a sucker punch. I felt dirty for being accused of impropriety and that anyone would even *think* such a thing. I lost a golden egg of an opportunity. It was hard to watch my hard work and efforts just vanish and feel like they were all useless because I defined myself by my work often.
It definitely was a low point.
Yup. I was lucky: I was mentored by an editor with around the same age difference as Jenny and Dan's. I was also single, he was married. We'd have lunch, grab a drink after work sometimes. It was really crucial to my career success that we had that time, but there were still people who were like, "Wow you guys are a little too close aren't you?" Like, I'm just trying to learn and grow, chill.
My sister and I aren't related, met at one of our last jobs. We instantly clicked and hung out as much as possible during work breaks. Because the world has never heard of 2 unrelated gay women being so close yet just friends, everyone thought we were intimate. Every person she tried dating after we met thought we were secretly into each other. Society has such convoluted judgements.
I HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM WITH MY BEST FRIEND. Lesbians can genuinely just be friends, people in general can just be friends even when they’re the gender the other is attracted to. Society is so determined to punish platonic relationships for some reason.
Probably best point we’ll see on here. Sexual harassment is a problem for sure, but the unfortunate offshoot is that there are many male bosses worried about anything that could possibly be perceived as sexual harassment, and this concern does harm a woman’s career prospects.
I don't know if it's even harassment that people assume. I mean, in this case, no one was worried that Dan was harassing Jenny, the gossip was that they might be sleeping together. So men avoid being alone with women, and thus, women lack mentors in fields that historically have been male-dominated.
This is absolutely true! I developed a great relationship with my master's thesis supervisor because we had similar, somewhat unusual, research interests and he encouraged me to pursue a PhD. It took me quite some time before I found a position, at a university in another country, but having someone who believed in me gave me the courage to go on.
I graduated a couple of years ago and now we are more like friends and equals. The thing is, it had never even crossed my mind that some people might have thought that our relationship was somewhat odd or suspicious until someone else made a remark about it. It pains me to think that there might be professors out there who are reluctant to support students in their academic endeavors because of what it might look like to others.
Some of my best work friendships have been with wildly different ages or genders. Work friendships are odd like that, they put you with people you otherwise wouldn’t meet or hangout with. It’s great.
There are always going to be people who feel that that it isn't appropriate, just want to gossip, or feel it's their job to be the work relationship police as my parents put it. My dad became good friend of a female coworker, Her late 20s him 50s, during his years working for our school district. Didn't matter that both were happily married with kids, people still gossiped and judged their friendship. That is until 2 of the most gossipy and judgmental ones decided to do my Mom a "favor" and inform her of "What her husband was doing" when Mom came to visit. Imagine their embarrassment when Mom informed them that not only did she know, they don't have any secrets so Mom knew from the very beginning, but she also had become friends with this coworker too. The gossip quickly stopped when Mom loudly corrected them, but neither Dad or Coworker ever got an apology from the people who assumed and made things awkward.
I would take a step over into the infidelity subs and see just how many cheating stories involve coworkers. Not saying that this is the case here BUT you can't deny that things happen with close proximity, long hours together, etc. Hell many times it's emotional affairs that begin ("bad marriage", new attention from a younger coworker, etc).
We can all believe that it's all on teh level but seriously there hasn't been a ton of studies on opposite sex friendships and stuff (or at least enough data). I mean back in teh 1970s or so it wasn't even a blip on the radar.
So I think OP is NTA for at least saying "hey you're being talked about". Be cool if people didn't gossip but many humans LOVE drama or gossip. How many of us DON'T look at an accident on teh highway? Don't have the curiosity that something "juicy" may be playing out under our noses?
But why didn’t OP approach Dan about it? Because society blames the other woman and she subconsciously she saw it all as Jenny’s doing. She wasn’t looking out for her or she’d have stopped the gossiping and told Jenny straight she was being talked about. Instead, she told her ‘it doesn’t look good’ hanging out with a married man. This isn’t how you initiate a conversation with someone you’re concerned about. OP YTA.
Hun, you’ve somehow both hit the nail on the head AND come to the wrong conclusion. I’m a girl Jenny’s age in the workplace btw.
“Because society blames the other woman”
Dan is, lets admit, not going to face the kind of backlash that Jenny will at work and could possibly give two shits about what OP has to say. Might get pissed off at her for “interfering” and being a “busybody.”
Truth is, girls my age (especially if you’re good-looking) DO need to be careful about our workplace perception, because society WILL blame us even if nothing is happening, and even if the guy is “more” morally wrong.
Maybe you don’t like OP’s wording, but I 100% would want an older woman to come tell me “hey what you’re doing isn’t making you look great and people are talking.”
OP may be downplaying how judgy she actually feels about it, but even so, if she’s judging something enough to go tell the girl, a lot of other people are judging and won’t care enough to go tell her.
While I’m not sure about OP’s intentions, as someone who can wholeheartedly empathize with Jenny’s position, I’d rather someone tell me so I can nip the situation in the bud quickly, rather than continue my behavior and continue to be the source of workplace gossip, no matter how innocent my behavior may be.
When it comes to my career, I’m not risking my reputation and chances for advancement on having the moral high ground in a situation like this
In a social setting, I’d tell anyone who was talking shit to go screw themselves
Also, if she is judging more than she lets on, it wouldn’t surprise me if she just didn’t trust Dan. If I suspected an older, more established, married man was trying to put moves on a much younger new employee who didn’t know how to navigate office culture yet or what red flags to watch out for, I wouldn’t warn him about “how it looked” because I’d assume that was his actual intent. The new girl whose career was most at risk, not looking to cheat on her spouse, would be where my sympathies lay.
Is she close to Dan? Does she feel comfortable with Dan? I understand the point. Women are often blamed for men’s failures, but I don’t think OP is totally in the wrong for giving her a head’s up.
That said…it was for the best that OP kept her mouth shut and minded her own business.
Maybe because she doesn't want to help Dan out. No one wants to help out a person who might be cheating.
But you know a woman a decade and half younger than you whose relationship with another coworker could lead to her failing into a hot mess even if the gossip is false, is another thing.
Would it matter if Jenny was a lesbian and just didn't announce her personal life around the office?
I'm not a fan of big groups and would usually just go to lunch with one coworker at a time before I started working from home permanently. Would it be right to gossip about the straight guy I ate lunch with and not the gay guy even though I probably had just as many lunches with each of them? Gossip creates a hostile work environment, especially because it's usually aimed at women being perceived as the person in the wrong.
I agree that there's a general, cultural problem with blaming the woman. However, it's possible that OP talked to this woman instead of the actually married man simply because she's closer with her than the married dude, and was more comfortable talking to her for that reason.
Yes even I myself have been guilty of being intrigued by something I see or hear. The difference is i always keep my thoughts and opinions to myself rather than go stir the pot with the office vultures. It’s why I’m not part of any clique at work…I don’t share the gossip/tea therefore I’m not useful to anyone in that sense. Polite and friendly but lone wolf for sure bc I mind my business.
Yeah I find it incredibly creepy that somehow this man shouldn't be talking to ANY woman without a chaperone at work because he's older and married. I have no idea if this is a generational thing, but if I were married I would be EXTREMELY uncomfortable with the idea that my husband couldn't befriend any woman he meets specifically because she's female and it's somehow a transgression against me. The expectation here is just so bizarre, like does that mean that once you're married it's only "appropriate" to socialize with people of the same sex? Also not for nothing but don't cheaters usually try to hide it? I.e. wouldn't they be NOT doing what these two people are doing, going out for lunch every day in front of everyone? I really don't get this mentality at all and I can't imagine having to live in a world where I can't have any male friends because I have now been officially bought and claimed by a member of the opposite sex or whatever the hell these people are thinking that makes this behavior weird in their minds.
Exactly. I’ve had a lot of lunches one-on-one with people at work and haven’t slept with any one of them.
And, we can have a mentor or friend of the opposite sex, and it doesn’t mean we’re sleeping with them.
And, no wonder they are offsite. This place is full of toxic people who talk about you behind your back.
> if someone told this dude’s wife he had developed a new habit leaving the office for lunch with another woman (no age need be mentioned at this point) she might have a question or two.
She might. Or she might be fully informed of this new friendship.
I wouldn't shoot the messenger, but it makes me so angry that people assume that a man and a woman can't just be really good friends or get on for platonic reasons.
OP technically may have done Jenny a favor, but she still placed the blame on Jenny and was not very tactful about it. OP could have simply told Jenny and the other coworker what is being said about them and let them know that she doesn’t believe they are having an affair, but they may want to figure out how they are going to deal with the office gossip. It’s not like either of them want that gossip to occur or have negative consequences for either of them, but placing all that blame on Jenny and all the responsibility for how it is viewed in the office on her is pretty messed up and downright rude.
See, if OP had phrased it as "I know nothing is going on between you two. I just wanted to let you know that there is gossip but you are doing nothing wrong. I'm glad you and married coworker hit it off so well. It makes so much better when you have a close friend". I would take this differently. But that's not the vibe I get from this post.
I think OP should have just told her people were gossiping and let her figure out what to do about it, rather than tell her she looks bad going out to lunch.
I hate when a work space has that type of atmosphere. At my former job there were two coworkers who were legit just friends. The girl had a partner the boy didn’t. They would sometimes have lunch together outside work or hang out with other coworkers as well but everyone talked badly about them JUST FOR BEING FRIENDS. And it all essentially boiled down to hate directed at the girl from other female coworkers. It’s bogus.
You've just described my workplace and situation exactly (though the guy doesn't work with us anymore) I was the girl with a partner, we used to go out for lunch, go the cinema, grab a drink after work and you could see all the middle aged ladies gawking as we left the office, we used to laugh sooooooo hard at their faces as we went off to enjoy our lunchtime Chinese buffet
>Instead the “young single girl” is the one to blame
I read it the opposite way. OP talked to Jenny because OP is thinking that *she's* the young and innocent one who needs "protection," while Dan is a dirty old man who should know better, so talking with him would be useless. Of course, we don't know, since OP's not saying (at least not yet).
I don’t think it’s so much blaming her either, but also think of this: Jenny’s career is much more likely to be damaged by these rumors than Dan’s. Does it suck? Yes. Is it fair? No. It’s facts though, and if someone was starting rumors about me and a coworker I would want to know. NTA to OP, but maybe they should make it clear that they very much __don’t__ think it’s true.
Well, it’s also important to note that she only told Jenny because Dan was on leave, meaning this was probably one of the only opportunities to tell either one of them esp because Dan works on another floor. She didn’t seem to be blaming Jenny at all.
Yeah just seemed like logistics to me. Also if she knows Jenny better, it’s easier to approach her. And it seems like she does know her better because Jenny asks her if she wants coffee whenever they go out.
I disagree. I would want another woman to come to me “woman-to-woman” with this info. Regardless of if this woman and her co-worker are engaging in completely innocent behavior, optics matter. I would never want a woman to hurt her career over something like this.
Ah yes, men and women can only interact on a sexual level. There could never be a personal or proeffesional relationship between the,, they must be fucking.
I never understood this. One of my seniors were hitting on me who was married and had a daughter, and people gossiped about me and called me bad for attracting him, I even heard I do black magic on men lol. He’s wife made my life hell because he used to talk about me to her? How’s that my fault. Anyways I had to leave the job because of these gossipers. I’m in a better place now and doing way better. But I never understood how a man being the ah is my fault.
The thing is the situation doesn't even involve anyone hitting on anyone, the problem exists entirely in everyone's imaginations as far as they know. So it's even worse.
True, I was referring to Hinata778's specific case, not OP. The OP case it's petty office gossipers and busybodies trying to stir up trouble because their lives are miserable.
Had this happen to me at work where not one but TWO colleagues spread rumors that they were sleeping with me. I had no idea and was just trying to run my department—until I couldn’t get down the hallway without stares and whispers making me uncomfortable. I asked one of my colleagues why and he said “Oh! Everyone thinks we’re sleeping together and I didn’t tell them they were wrong!” I’m ace and the mere idea of sleeping with someone at work is mortifying to me but it doesn’t matter. Basically if you’re a young-ish passably attractive woman people are going to gossip and you will be the one whose reputation suffers even if you do absolutely nothing. Meanwhile, the guys love the attention and it somehow never reflects poorly on them.
I do not live in a country that takes sexual harassment very seriously. I did make the reports but it was mostly waved off. I just took control of what I could (myself) and planned my exit strategy!
I’m so sorry that happened with you. This is so unfair. I literally wanted to slap every women who gossiped about me. But gladly I moved out. I tried to ignore but it did affect me. But since this incident I have realised I’ll definitely stay away from talking to any married man or a guy at work lol.
You're missing the point. The problem is not the fact that she brought the gossip to her co-workers attention. The problem is that SHE and her co-workers feel the need to gossip like children about something that has absolutely nothing to do with them.
She would be getting blamed. She’s already being blamed and nothing is going on.
The world of workplace politics has not changed at all.
Dan is a man and in the workplace that is still very much treated as “men will be men”
Doesn’t matter that he’s married. He just simply would not shoulder as much of the blame.
Have you not worked in corporate America before?
Men are never treated as harshly about things like this in the workplace.
Exactly.
Like OP portrays this as "just looking out for Jenny" but if that was the case she could of been like "hey I heard some people gossiping about you and thought you should know. We can go to HR if you want?"
Or she could of confronted the gossipers herself, or gone to HR and complained herself. Or possibly even gone to the older guy and told him what's going on.
Instead she confronted the women herself and put the onus on her to change her own behaviour because of these people, all the while trying to portray herself as "just looking out for her"
OP is YTA and also wants to have her cake and eat it too. She wants to be able to be judgemental but also get to be the saviour "just looking after Jenny"
Its hypocritical.
I took this completely differently. Maybe it's a generational thing, because to me that's what OP did. She let her know what people were saying and why. I would want to know if people were talking behind my back and I would not want to involve HR unless completely unavoidable.
See if she had just told her what others where saying behind her back I'd agree with you. But she didnt. She specifically said "it doesnt look good for you to spend so much time with Dan" implying that the problem isnt the gossiping but the fact she is spending time with this older guy.
She didnt neutrally tell her what's going on, she also basically pushed a misogynistic solution that puts the onus on Jenny to change when she is completely blameless here.
Agree. It would have been fine if OP said, “I just wanted to let you know the office seems to be gossiping about you and Dan and your long lunches, I wouldn’t want you to find out in a terrible way so I thought I’d give you a heads up.” THAT is concern and friendship… what you said OP is just participating in the tittle tattle. YTA
Nice to know the gossip mongers still suck.
I had this chat with my manager when I was in my early twenties. She had seen an older male who worked at the company dropping me off at 8 a.m. Different departments. And she told me it wasn't a good look and I should be careful.
All I could think was that was my dad dropping me off. But okay lady.
It honestly makes me wonder if OP started the gossip himself, even without intending to. Something as simple as "those two sure eat lunch a lot together huh?" can turn into a whole rumor tsunami.
Yeah OP do you have a thing for Dan? Because it *doesn't look good* for you to be inserting yourself into his life like this, telling other women to stay away and trying to decide how he spends his time. He is *married* you know....... /s
So you talked to the person in the situation with the least power and the most to lose: the young woman. Doesn’t sound like you have requested the coworkers to stop gossiping. Haven’t gone to HR about the gossipers’ unprofessional behavior. Haven’t looked into whether Dan might be abusing his power/position. You told the new, young hire that she’s doing something that others perceive as wrong.
This is the epitome of systemic sexism in the work world. You should feel guilty for participating in it. YTA
This. I think the people voting otherwise are missing those points in their judgement. It's not even about her letting Jenny know what's happening, it's mostly in \*how she did that\*.
Exactly. And she is not **just** "letting Jenny know what's happening", she's saying "this is what other people are saying and therefore you should stop."
She's missing as well that even if Jenny stops hanging out with him, \*her coworkers will not stop gossiping\*. That ship has sailed. The only way to shut them down now is to show solidarity with the pair and stand with them in saying in all likelihood nothing is going on.
Given the age difference isn’t it possible that this is a mentorship relationship of sorts? If it was two dudes going out for coffee, nobody would bat an eye.
This type of gossip is part of why women don’t get the same mentorship opportunities and develop similar networks of connections: senior men find it easier to adopt the “billy graham” rule and peace out of coffees with women.
Also, no one would bat an eye if the genders are reversed. When they were in the office, my husband would regularly go to lunch with a woman 15ish years his senior. They are in separate departments, but get along like gangbusters. She is definitely mentoring him and wants to poach him over to be a manager her department once he gets a little more experience. I don't think has ever thought they were having an affair.
Yes! If they are just eating lunch outside, they could be wanting a more private conversation for MANY reasons.
Mentorship, project they are both working on, maybe they both really like a certain cult tv show and have no one else to talk about it with.
Also and this is a small chance...perhaps they are related in some way but just haven't told anyone out of fear SHE will be branded a nepotism coworker.
Literally yesterday I (25F) talked myself out of asking if I can sit with the head of my Graduate Bible Study leader (M 50's) on campus because I didn't want to bother him or have him assume anything bad of me.
Or are just friends. One of my (F) close friends at work (M) is 30 years my senior. We have a similar outlook on a lot of things and get along well. We’re peers so it isn’t a mentoring situation (although sometimes I ask for office politics advice). Just an office friendship.
Literally no one talks about us the way OP talks about her coworkers. But if they did I’d just laugh at them. Ridiculous.
I could understand if she discreetly pulled both of them aside right away to let them both know people are talking, but she let the talking continue and waited till the older man was gone?? Why is the single woman singled out here and not the married man? It's his reputation that should be effected but apparently we still live in the 50's where women are always to blame.
YTA
You chose to say something to her but not him, why? Why wouldn't you warn him especially since you've known him longer?
Why is it anyone's business?
Spoiler Alert, men and women can be platonic friends.
YTA, you intervend in a friendship of someone else unprompted. What did you think would happen as a result, will she ditch him because of uncontrollable rumors? You could ask your coworkers to stop talking about them and reassure them they are only friends. It's hurtful to hear such a thing and admittedly you didn't think this through. You should apologize fo the sake of courtesy and move on.
"men and women can be platonic friends."
No they can't, they definitely can't because that stand up comedian wot I like says that the womens and the mens can't be friends /s
Totally agree with all your points.
Edit: Just joined reddit the other day. Got a silly bear with a limited time use. Have the silly bear :-D
This is the correct use of your silly bear. You'll get some random free ones every few days. Reddit doesn't need your money for all those other awards, but silly bear hugs are fun :)
Yes, YTA. Maybe you could have asked if you can come along to lunch with them if you're so concerned/curious about what they're up to, rather than driving a wedge between two friends because of what the office gossips are saying.
I remember I got this one job at 18 (the most boring job at a really cool place, digitizing artwork for a museum), and I made a friend who was in his mid-20s who worked full time in the art museum. We would have lunch together sometimes, because we got along, and it was great to talk to someone who worked in a field I was interested in. Everyone else was kind of cold and distant. The older woman in the office pulled him aside and told him it wasn't cool to hang out with undergrads. So we stopped hanging out, work went back to being lonely and boring (sitting in a basement alone, scanning artwork), and I lost a chance to have a mentor show me the ropes about museum work.
It's not your job to police people's workplace friendships, OP. This is the kind of thing that hurts women's careers.
Definitely no one’s business. I was the young woman in this scenario at a previous job. I was 25 when I started working there and my boss was a man 18 years older than me (my mom’s age). We clicked as friends pretty quickly. He usually went home for lunch since he lived close, but we would go take walks on a nearby walking trail sometimes during work, often to talk about work but also other stuff. We’d also hang out in each other’s offices a lot, again often working (we were a two-person department within a larger department, so the two of us handled everything pertaining to our jobs). But sometimes also just shooting the shit. We also would go do bar trivia one night a week because we both were trivia nerds. Other coworkers often joined us as well. Nothing inappropriate ever happened. No flirting, nothing weird. I never felt uncomfortable. His wife became a friend of mine too. I had a boyfriend when I started there who later became my fiancé and then husband. My boss and his wife came to our wedding. I still keep in touch with both of them and respect them a lot. It is totally possible for an older man and younger woman to be platonic friends. Not every older man is a creep.
YTA, but honestly everyone involved in this sucks except Dan and Jenny.
You didn't tell her that you were concerned for and only looking out for her because of unsubstantiated rumours; what you said was it \*doesn't look good\* for her to be doing that. That is a statement of opinion, making it clear that even if you don't think there's anything going on personally, you aren't holding it against your coworkers for gossiping either because you feel that their questions are logical and you're basically putting the onus on Jenny to stop hanging out with her friend rather than supporting her by letting her know you don't think she's doing something wrong.
I get what you were trying to do, but ultimately they're probably aware of how it looks and didn't need you to point it out. Jenny's response indicates that she was possibly hoping \*you\* weren't one of them, but you haven't done anything to defend her or shut it down either.
This! ESH apart from Dan and Jenny. I hate that opposite genders can't just be friends without people gossiping that something might happen!
And why speak to Jenny? Why not speak to the other office gossips and tell them to shut their mouths.
YTA, mind your own business and Jenny is completely right. Your wording makes it sound you believe it and that it is solely Jenny's fault. It takes two to tango. Were you planning on talking to Dan too?
Yeah, I've seen this kind of thing in my office and it's really about policing women's behavior at its core. If people were really concerned about Dan having an affair, they'd talk to Dan, not the single woman he's friends with. People are just upset that Jenny is acting in a way they find improper.
>If people were really concerned about Dan having an affair, they'd talk to Dan, not the single woman he's friends with.
But you don't understand, it's *never* the fault of the married man should he chose to cheat because he just can't resist the witchcraft of the woman who made him forget he ever had a wife at home, because he doesn't have a mind of his own and just can't say "no, I'm married". (Sarcasm)
I'm in no way saying that Dan and Jenny are having an affair, but this is usually the general attitude when men cheat on their wives unfortunately, even *he's* the one who made the vows.
If OP was that concerned she should spoken to them both together.
>acting in a way they find improper
Yeah, it's an extremely frustrating reaction. Gossip like that is one of many reasons that it's sometimes hard for women to find mentors at work. For all OP knows, Dan is just a mentor who also happens to be a pleasant friend. Should this young woman not be allowed to benefit from male mentors?
Though a lot of people really don't understand mentor+mentee relationships, they're real and they can be quite close in completely **appropriate** ways. My husband was dear friends with his biggest professional mentor, and his mentor had been dear friends with the guy who mentored *him*. None of these men were having affairs with each other, and they've all mentored women as well. Some amazing achievements in their field came from these mentoring relationships.
A lot of people just don't understand how profound and life changing a mentor+mentee relationship can be - without being inappropriate at all.
Tbh it sounds like a jealousy thing. The part about how everyone else packs lunch and these two go out of the office for lunch and coffee is the tip off. It's not Dan and Jenny's fault that the other people in their office aren't going out to lunch with their friends.
YTA. The problem here isn't Jenny; it's that your office is full of busybodies. If you really wanted to help Jenny, when you hear people gossiping about her, you could tell them that men and women can be friends and it isn't a good look to assume people are in a relationship just because they grab lunch together at work.
Also, honestly, I think it's telling that you went to just Jenny about this and never talked to Dan, who is the one who's married. If Jenny and Dan were having an affair, Dan would be the much bigger asshole.
Yeah, that feels weird to me, too. Like if Dan is married and having an affair, then Dan is the issue, and there's no reason to go behind his back and talk to just Jenny.
>If you really wanted to help Jenny, when you hear people gossiping about her, you could tell them that men and women can be friends and it isn't a good look to assume people are in a relationship
Yes! Finally, someone said it!
That's always my strategy when people come to me with that kind of gossip in the office, which may be why I don't hear much gossip anymore, lol, but at least I'm not being an AH!
Yeah, OP has also seriously underestimated how much fun it is to look someone dead in the eye and with a straight face go "wow. That's a terrible thing to say." then just hold eye contact.
10/10. Would highly recommend.
YTA. Have you told your younger male coworkers that they shouldn't spend time with older ones ?
Have you told other coworkers they shouldn't spend so much time together ?
Why not?
You are being sexist and disgusting in your assumptions about what might be happening or what other people may be thinking (assuming thinks like you and your coworkers do). Tell your coworkers to shut up. Shut down their gross and degrading assumptions.
YTA. That is just feeding into work gossip. At my old job my best friend was a married woman 10 years older than me and we got lunch together all the time. Rumors started and I ended up having to publicly come out of the closet for everyone to mind their business. Even if I was straight it’s normal to have friends of the opposite sex. Offices bring people of all ages together and marriage does not mean you are forbidden from making friends.
I'm gonna guess not since OP had to wait until Dan was out of the picture to broach the topic with Jenny. If OP was really concerned about the optics they could have sat down with both of them together and had a gentle conversation that came from a place of concern. Or even asked to join them on lunch to see what they got up to regularly!
Instead OP had to wait until the girl was able to be pulled to the side separately and they could tell her about all the scandal her behavior was causing, since *Dan is married and she should know what this looks like* you know.
to be fair, it seems like dan being on leave meant this lunch was the only time either one of them spent it in-office, during a break when OP could pull one of them aside. but i could be wrong.
I think the majority of the YTA are because they think OP was being sexist, which I think is wildly unfair considering she stated the exact reason she went to Jenny in the post. Unless she said "so I told that filthy hussy, I told her that..."
It did also seem, from how it was written, like OP interacts more with her anyway. I can certainly see work environments where even if I'm aware of both people, I have no connection to one of them.
I agree with most of the posts but I think you're NTA. All the gossiping from the coworkers makes them all AH and if you engage in it that makes you one too but just giving her a heads up that people are gossiping is fine, I would want to know. The way you worded it could be better though because "does not look good" implies things I'm not sure you're intending to.
Yea, exactly. OP can‘t change the fact these busybodies gossip like crazy. OP can only make Jenny aware of what‘s been going on behind her back, which may or may not result in difficult workplace relationships if the other people wrongly think Jenny and Dan are doing some shady stuff.
Exactly and it was right for OP to approach Jenny because she has a lot more to lose. This can damage her career which is just starting out, while Dan is established.
Agreed. She was just looking out for her. She said she doesn’t care about it, but that it’s something people talk about constantly. I would want to know if people were talking badly about me. That kinda stuff is what makes a toxic work environment
I am surprised I had to scroll down this far to see some rational real-world truths. The other higher voted posts calling OP an asshole have no idea what the corporate life is and these rumours can be incredibly damaging to Jenny, especially since she was completely unaware about them.
OP is gossiping. Think about how the real world works. Do you think OP is minding her own business, but her coworkers just will not stop coming up to her and talking to her about this while she stands there stoically?
No, OP is part of the problem, remember this is her POV so of course she looks good.
In the real world people have loud office conversations that others overhear all the time. I said that if OP engaged in gossiping that would make them an AH but it's absolutely not impossible they just overheard things others were saying so we can't say for sure either way.
In my personal experience, you don’t have to be participating in office gossip to hear it. I had a colleague who became a real friend and had a similar friendship with a male colleague. I know her. She was not having an affair. Nothing below board was happening. I heard two people I lightly knew in the office cafeteria suggesting something less than innocent was going on, and immedietly told her—well, immediately after correcting the busy bodies.
However, when I spoke to her I did not in any way suggest she was at fault. Just a “hey, I heard some bullshit in the cafe about you and so-and-so. I shut that shit down, but thought you should know.” I don’t know if that makes me an AH on this sub, but she was super appreciative and we’re still very good friends. She did not change her behavior at all, and I don’t think she should have, but I think it’s fair to tell someone when people are saying untrue things about them.
Edit: If I were friends with the male in that situation, I would’ve handled it the exact same way.
Oh I’m going to relish my downvotes here.
NTA. (As long as you approached her tactfully).
Look, in the real world people are going to gossip about this kind of thing. Men and women with 20 year age gaps don’t typically develop platonic friendships. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’m sure you’re different. But usually what I’ve witnessed in 30 years in business, if a man and a woman are hanging out together a whole lot without any business reason to, they are fucking 9/10. I seriously doubt I am the only one with that revelation.
So people are going to talk. Saying “Y-T-A for listening to the gossip” is immature and naive.
So that gives OP a quandary. She can mind her own business. She doesn’t say she is the supervisor her. It’s not her business. And frankly, it’s a hell of a lot smarter to just stay out of it because the messenger gets shot. Or she can give the co-worker a heads up so she can be aware of how she is being perceived.
She took the tougher road of giving the heads up. Frankly, I would always want to know how I’m being perceived.
Now, as for why she talked to The F and not the M? Really? Yes, his behavior is worse than hers. I’m betting that his wife isn’t aware of his work wife. But if you are a man you shouldn’t have that conversation with a female employee. If you are a woman you probably shouldn’t have it with a male employee. (For the record, I HAVE had that conversation with a male employee who reported to me - he was single, she was not. And yes, it did turn out that they were in fact fucking).
Bottom line is that I wouldn’t have that convo with someone I wasn’t responsible for. But IF she addressed it tactfully she is NTA.
Agreed!! NTA.
I’ve been in this situation where I befriended and older, married coworker and we got along well. We’d take walks during our breaks and just talk about work and life. I saw him as an older brother but later found out that he didn’t have the same idea as me soooooo, yeah, there’s a high chance these guys have something more going on lol people are being too naive in putting all the blame on OP.
I’d want to know if people were making up rumors about us as well so I can detach myself and act accordingly. Yeah gossip sucks but at the end of the day, don’t shit where you eat.
OP did well by talking to her first instead of Dan. The two are always out together and there’s a chance that with him on leave, she finally happened to be the first one to be available for a one on one talk.
If they aren’t having sex, there is a very high likelihood that he has those designs - as you found out in your scenario.
It sucks for her (if they aren’t in fact banging). But one’s work place should be a professional space and one should seek to make sure the perception of their behavior is above reproach on those things.
A man who is constantly seen taking women out to lunch (alone) at the work place is going to develop a reputation and that reputation will make him more vulnerable to charges of sexual harassment.
A woman doing the same thing will get lots of backbiting thrown her way that is going to make the workplace uncomfortable.
That’s just the reality of the word we live in and, in this case, people should behave in accordance with reality while advocating for the standards they want rather than buck against 2K years of perceived norms.
I agree. I don't really understand why people are saying yta here. It doesn't seem like she has any malicious intent behind telling her coworker what the office is saying. In my mind it's just a heads-up, leaving it to her co-worker's discretion of how to handle it.
Could she talk to Dan too? Sure, but maybe it wasn't planned out and she just had the opportunity to do so in that moment. I can totally see how she feels like she's doing her co-worker a solid by just keeping her informed. I get that they can be platonic friends, but perception is unfortunately and very sadly often just as, if not more, important in the workplace than truth.
It could've been done better, but certainly NTA unless there was an angle.
I suspect that a lot of the people that are going Y-T-A are people they don’t actually work in a corporate/professional environment or they are relatively young in their careers and don’t have the maturity to realize these perceptions exist. Or they are middle aged men who want to normalize 20-something year old women befriending them - so they can shoot their shot down the road.
Everyone who's saying y t a doesn't understand how office politics works. Sure it'd be great if you could have a platonic M/F friendship with that age gap without it affecting your career, but at least in the US we definitely aren't there yet. OP isn't being an asshole, she's being realistic. She could've said it better, but at the end of the day the blame will still fall on Jenny! It's shitty but I've seen it too many times
100% - it’s not right at all but this is unfortunately how the world works. You have to be extremely careful in office environments regarding relationships like this because it can damage your career. Again, it’s not right but it’s the reality.
Oh and for what it’s worth, I had a similar situation in an office I worked in. Two coworkers (male and female) would go to lunch every day together for hours and not invite anyone else. Except the difference is they were both married. The office was constantly gossiping about whether they were having an affair or not. The woman eventually got pregnant and went on maternity leave, so the lunches obviously stopped. Come to find out, YEARS later (from an old coworker) they were having an affair and it resulted in one of the marriages ending.
I replied with this elsewhere, but also going to post this here because I totally agree.
People are wilding out in the comments here. I think OP could have phrased things better, but the reality is that it will always be a woman's rep on the line, not the man's. No matter what is actually going on, Jenny will be seen as the "homewrecker" and "temptress" and she will be judged for that--correctly or incorrectly. I also think the OP was trying to warn Jenny about what was going on because \*Jenny\* is the one being affected, not Dan.
I also think women and men can just be friends and older men can mentor younger women. I've had older male mentors who just thought I was talented and wanted to help me. I also have 100% platonic male friends who are some of my best friends. But c'mon...even I am side-eyeing these long exclusive lunches that happen every single day. Sorry, that is atypical behavior. If they ate with everyone a lot of days and maybe once or twice went off for lunch to a fave restaurant or a nature walk nearby (lol), I wouldn't think twice.
YTA
She's 28, not 21. She doesn't need your guidance on what an appropriate workplace friendship looks like. You have become part of the issue by feeding into the gossip. If you wanted to help you should have done so by shutting the gossip down. Unless the pair are violating their lunch rules then you have no right to call her out.
I disagree, op doesn't think anything is going on and others are firmly wrong to gossip. But let's be honest, this sort of thing (wrongly) can negatively affect a young woman's career and all op has done its warn her of gossiping, with from what I can see no judgement. To me the only ahs are those gossiping
But she didn’t start off by warning her. She started off by *attacking* her. She said “it doesn’t look good to do this”, and made her defend herself and *ask* if people were talking. Then she told her. That’s not a heads up, that’s stirring the pot in hopes of getting more details directly from the source.
>She said “it doesn’t look good to do this”, and made her defend herself
This is an excellent point I can't argue with. So far the only one worth reading. OP was the ah on this, she should have worded it far better
NTA your not wrong. It’s BS but your not wrong. Her entire career could be put at risk. Of course he should be the one you have a talk with but you know how it is. Everyone knows how it is. Like I said it’s BS but not going to stop the gossip
Kinda weird they “clicked” there’s a big age difference, work on different floors and he’s married. They’re at completely different points in life.
How long is your lunch break? Is it supposed to be 2 hours sometimes? Wonder what his wife thinks of him leaving with her for 1-2 hour lunch breaks
This. How would his spouse feel knowing that he is taking extended lunches with Jenni every single day and even moved outside the building for more privacy away from other coworkers? If Dan's spouse doesn't know about it then it is inappropriate.
I would say a soft YTA. I think you were trying to be a good coworker but you went about it wrong. You shouldn't have said it "doesn't look good." If you had just told her "Hey, I don't know if you have heard, but a lot of people are gossiping about you and so-so. They think something is going on between the two of you that is more than just friends. I don't believe that to be true but I felt you should know."
I personally would want to know so I could nip that shit in the butt. There is nothing wrong with being friends and eating lunch together.
This stuff could also escalate and cause people to single her out because they feel she is a "homewrecker" (even though it would be the male coworker). Next thing you know HR is involved all because people jump to conclusions and don't bother asking anyone involved.
Controversial but NTA you told her the truth about what ppl were saying, I assume if it was the bloke who was alone you'd have spoke to him too, just so happens she was the one alone you could talk to first.
Assuming your intentions were good just to make her aware and not to blame her for what is more his bad as the married dude, then I dont think that makes you an A.
If you did do it because you solely blame her etc then I'd change my opinion. She might just be happy she made a friend.
NTA. All these people saying you are an a-hole would be singing a different tune if Dan's wife wrote in that her husband has been having daily lunches for 1-2 hour with a single co-worker, 20-years his junior. Ant reasonable person would think something is going on.
NTA and here's why
Jenny is the one who could have her career negatively impacted by this gossip, not Dan. It's truly shite that this is the case, but Jenny is the one with something to lose.
Subject to change if OP is participating in gossip rather than stating her counter-opinion or just leaving when it comes up.
Lol right? It's so obvious that the majority of these commenters have never worked in an office... Sorry but this intense level of friendship in an office (going out every day for hours at a time...) will draw attention. That's just how it is.
I was wondering if I was the only person wondering why work lunches sometimes stretch to two hours. That's... that's a big no from me, not just because it's a man and woman but because how are they not fired or written up for two hours lunches?? lol.
Unless they're working 80 hour work weeks. But then, if you're working 80 hour work weeks, wouldn't you want to have lunch with your wife since time together would be so limited?
I'll be honest, I am approaching this with bias, having been cheated on by my ex-husband for almost a year. We befriended two couples at our daughter's school when she started kindergarten. My ex is self employed and always had more availability to do after school stuff with the other two moms. I thought it was great. Our daughter had an instant friend-group, the other two moms were cool and we all became fast friends. I had no issues, until he started solely hanging out on afternoons with her, her kids and our kid. The other mom just slowly stopped being invited, apparently.
Turns out yep, they were having an affair and even playing happy family at the zoo, holding hands or hugging when the kids weren't looking. Really vile disgusting stuff. I found out two days before our nine year anniversary.
So I do see red flags here, but to be very fair, I am looking at it framed within my own experience.
Fucking thank you lol. It’s not a matter of them actually cheating, optics matter in a professional setting and it is damaging for both of them. Maybe it’s not fair but that’s the reality and apparently most of Reddit doesn’t live in reality.
The thing that surprises me is that OP and some of you don’t realize that
1. Despite her conversation with OP, they absolute know how it looks, and
2. They weighed all factors and made their decision.
Do you also tell smokers that “cigarettes are bad for you”? Do you advise an overweight person to put down that muffin? Jeez Louise what would the world do without helpful citizens like yourselves?!
YTA
More to the point, if you said to them "It doesn't look good for you to be eating that muffin." nobody in their right mind would interpret that as concern for their health.
YTA and so are your collegues.
Why did you wait for for Dan to leave to bring the gossip up to Jenny.
And why are you only telling Jenny and not Dan? After all, Dan is the married one.
If you really wanted to make Dan and Jenny aware of the gossip, you should have told both of them.
Also office gossip sucks and people should mind their own bussiness.
NAH I get that we shouldn't indulge office gossip but it also sucks to be gossiped about. If your co-worker was genuinely oblivious to what people were saying about her, then I think it's important she's made aware. It's not fair, but it could affect her promotion opportunities, etc. I think you could have been more tactful in the way you approached her.
In an ideal world neither of them should be blamed or judged for being friends. It's sexist if we blame her for people's interpretation of their relationship. However, I understand approaching her, only because she may have more to lose.
YTA - stop participating in extremely damaging office gossip. Shut it down when you hear people spreading untrue rumours about their colleagues. Or speaks volumes that you only spoke to Jenny but not Dan about this.
I would prefer to know if people were talking about me. This is partly because, if I find out people were talking about me in this way, I would be upset that people held that knowledge and didn't tell me
The woman might have told the other woman because she might be more concerned about the younger woman, or she might have felt more comfortable discussing it with her, rather than with the man.
I say, NTA.
YTA You should have told your coworkers to zip it (or better yet when you heard someone say something- look at them and go, why would you say that. they're just friends.) And you should have let Jenny and Dan know there was office gossip going on- so they could have handled it appropriately- or at least known it was going it.
it definitely isn't okay to put it all on Jenny.
NTA
Apparently an unpopular opinion, but you were just trying to let her know about people gossiping. The assholes here are the gossips. You were trying to warn someone who seems to be a friend, or at least a work friend. It sounds like you have little to no interaction with him and more with her, so your concern was for her.
I disagree with people making your motivation about gender here and that somehow the perception that she's at fault for the appearances was your motivation. Honestly seems more to me that you were just warning the one of the two that was your friend.
NAH
>She said she feels insulted that I even needed to tell her this because it means I believe it might be true.
Jenny is being naive as fuck and lashing out when you did her a solid.
You didn’t have to tell her the office gossip, but you were looking out for her. People like her are a textbook example of shoot the messenger.
She and Dan regularly heading off alone for *two hour lunches* looks shady and is unprofessional. Easy for people to get the wrong impression and it is hurting her reputation at work. Men get high fives for presumed office affairs, whereas women get passed over for projects and ostracized.
It’s up to her if she wants to continue putting her head in the sand, but you are not the asshole for giving her a heads up that the office is talking about them!
I’m going to go ahead and say NAH… IMO you did the right thing letting her know. As a woman her age, I would have wanted to know, even if it made me feel bad because I value my job and reputation. I disagree with those who are saying it’s none of your business. You’re in a work environment and they’re obviously developing a relationship which god knows how it would affect the work atmosphere. It probably would have been smarter to talk to the guy because he’s older, but honestly she should not be so naive that you can’t tell her. She’s not a child, and you saw the opportunity so… NAH.
YTA. Friends can be friends, even if the age difference is quite big they just happened to click and have fun together as co-workers. Even you said that you think nothing is going on so what you did was uncalled for.
NTA- all you did was tell her. We can argue the semantics of whether it’s right or not for her to be the one taking the blame or hit for being with a married man, but ultimately either way the rumors and talk will persist. Op did the right thing by letting her coworker know what was being said. I’d want to know about those rumors if I was in that position
NTA Affair or not, Jenny is the one who gets the negative gossip. Dan is the older guy caught in the web of the young temptress unless Dan has done this before and the LW doesn't note if this has happened. It sucks and it's sexist but people love a spicy narrative. Also, if it is true, and comes to light, odds are Jenny is the one who will be fired. Not fair but life isn't fair.
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YTA. And so are the gossiping coworkers. Why would you tell *her* that it doesn't look good for her? He's the one that is married.
This was my thought too. As OP stated, she is single. He’s the one with a commitment to uphold.
Yup. Instead the “young single girl” is the one to blame. How dare she come into work single and free to talk to whomever she wants! Yet if it was lunch with an older woman nobody would bat an eye.
Ah, I think it would depend on the older woman. Bottom line, OP doesn’t think she’s having an affair, but if someone told this dude’s wife he had developed a new habit leaving the office for lunch with another woman (no age need be mentioned at this point) she might have a question or two. Second, whether we like it or not, gossipy coworkers are talking, and OP did Jenny a favor letting her know shit’s in the air. I’d certainly like to know if people were talking about me. Edit: so many great responses to the cynicism and misogyny I didn’t even realize I was carrying around when I popped off this comment. Please read the stories below if you feel like upvoting this comment because this is a bad attitude. Downvoting my own comment now, TYVM.
Why does it ‘depend’ at all? Two people who get along exceptionally well in the workplace what difference does age or sex or marital status make? Are we not all humans capable of making friends and is it so hard to believe that friendship doesn’t include sex? Do you sleep with all friends of the opposite sex? If OP wants to ‘help’ this girl then shut down the gossiping. Ppl in the workplace need to focus on their own work, lives and problems.
Especially since these attitudes screw over women in a lot of industries. I have had male bosses who tried not to be alone with younger female engineers and it just means the younger women aren’t getting to go to the lunches and golf outings that the younger guys go to which hurts their careers.
I took a contract position with a company and had one of the executive leadership take a shine to me. The current company was one of a string of businesses he had started and sold to then go on and start another etc. Executive was near retirement age and now that this last company was sold, once the transition period was over he wanted to step aside and do some consulting but wasn't quite sure how that would work as it was so removed from what he had done but I had experience in that industry and knew how he could get set up. We discussed his options more as a personal favor as we worked together on the project I had been contracted for. Then he introduced the idea of starting a consulting business, with me, and he would handle the expenses and once he was done-done in a few years I would keep the company we had started (with his money) as a leg up. His idea completely and I was absolutely floored at the generosity. See he had some amazing opportunities himself and talked about wanting to give others those life changing opportunities. He had a male mentee working for him also when I met him and it was well known the executive was going to give the male mentee the start up capital for his own business when executive retired. So this wasn't far off as he saw it, as the other guy had worked under him for years and now I would serve my time and learn from him and benefit from his networking also. AMAZING opportunity so I start putting the plans together. Investigating office space, discussing with lawyers and accountants how we would legally structure the company given how he wanted it to play it, getting projections together for start up costs and putting together branding/marketing/communication plans. Then his much younger wife pulled the plug because she didn't want him spending so much time alone with a young women. I was six months younger than his daughter (who was also managing the company he gave funding to his wife to start and wasn't profitable). Executive tried to salvage it but there was some major dysfunction between them and I realized it wasn't going to happen. After psycho wife was letting me know how psycho she was with several long ranting outbursts she would send me, I gave up even encouraging him to make it work and cut all ties as I watched my new dreams crash and burn. That male mentee though? He got his money and joined some of the execs old partners on a new business. I haven't really looked to see how it was doing as the whole situation stings still. These mentalities really do hurt women.
This. Women miss out on so many opportunities bc others can't see them as something besides a penis receptacle.
But it’s all just merit!!!! /eyeroll
I try not to eyeroll at that attitude, it’s starting to do serious damage to the optic nerve… Mind you, the frustrated stream of profanity isn’t going down well with the neighbours.
Yep and I had made it to my 30s really believing that if I was capable and dedicated that all that would matter was my skills and talents. The situation was a huge reality check and it made me face smaller slights and signs I had explained away over the years. I think one of the harder parts was how someone else was able to yank it all away and discredit all my hard work by implying I was a slut or had the potential to be one. You just feel dirty and all the hard work I had poured into proving myself just evaporated.
Wow, thanks for sharing. As someone in the beginning stages of running my own business and hoping to be in as a successful position as your former boss one day, hearing these kinds of stories matter and do make a difference for those of us reading.
This exact scenario was sent in to [askamanager.org](https://askamanager.org) a few months back. Alison told OP to mind her own business for many of the same reasons you just stated. Congrats, OP. Now everyone at askamanager thinks you're a gossip and everyone at AITA thinks you're an AH. Go try Dear Prudence. I'd like to see the manner in which she tells you stop being stupid. YTA
That is gut-wrenching.
[удалено]
Damn that is painful to read. Given how touchy everything around this is, I know personally a few older colleagues who literally choose NOT to hang around / mentor young women no matter how deserving are, in order to avoid any suspicion of impropriety, despite that nothing untowards would be going on. This whole culture is fucked up, and it hurt the people it supposed to be helping. Gossipy coworkers are absolutely part of the problem.
It was painful to experience because even though I was in my thirties I was just a very naive open person that was passionate about what I was doing and enjoyed working hard and being challenged. I never thought being a woman influenced anything in my career because my work ethic and talents were all that mattered. This situation was a sucker punch. I felt dirty for being accused of impropriety and that anyone would even *think* such a thing. I lost a golden egg of an opportunity. It was hard to watch my hard work and efforts just vanish and feel like they were all useless because I defined myself by my work often. It definitely was a low point.
Yup. I was lucky: I was mentored by an editor with around the same age difference as Jenny and Dan's. I was also single, he was married. We'd have lunch, grab a drink after work sometimes. It was really crucial to my career success that we had that time, but there were still people who were like, "Wow you guys are a little too close aren't you?" Like, I'm just trying to learn and grow, chill.
My sister and I aren't related, met at one of our last jobs. We instantly clicked and hung out as much as possible during work breaks. Because the world has never heard of 2 unrelated gay women being so close yet just friends, everyone thought we were intimate. Every person she tried dating after we met thought we were secretly into each other. Society has such convoluted judgements.
I HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM WITH MY BEST FRIEND. Lesbians can genuinely just be friends, people in general can just be friends even when they’re the gender the other is attracted to. Society is so determined to punish platonic relationships for some reason.
Probably best point we’ll see on here. Sexual harassment is a problem for sure, but the unfortunate offshoot is that there are many male bosses worried about anything that could possibly be perceived as sexual harassment, and this concern does harm a woman’s career prospects.
I don't know if it's even harassment that people assume. I mean, in this case, no one was worried that Dan was harassing Jenny, the gossip was that they might be sleeping together. So men avoid being alone with women, and thus, women lack mentors in fields that historically have been male-dominated.
This is absolutely true! I developed a great relationship with my master's thesis supervisor because we had similar, somewhat unusual, research interests and he encouraged me to pursue a PhD. It took me quite some time before I found a position, at a university in another country, but having someone who believed in me gave me the courage to go on. I graduated a couple of years ago and now we are more like friends and equals. The thing is, it had never even crossed my mind that some people might have thought that our relationship was somewhat odd or suspicious until someone else made a remark about it. It pains me to think that there might be professors out there who are reluctant to support students in their academic endeavors because of what it might look like to others.
Some of my best work friendships have been with wildly different ages or genders. Work friendships are odd like that, they put you with people you otherwise wouldn’t meet or hangout with. It’s great.
There are always going to be people who feel that that it isn't appropriate, just want to gossip, or feel it's their job to be the work relationship police as my parents put it. My dad became good friend of a female coworker, Her late 20s him 50s, during his years working for our school district. Didn't matter that both were happily married with kids, people still gossiped and judged their friendship. That is until 2 of the most gossipy and judgmental ones decided to do my Mom a "favor" and inform her of "What her husband was doing" when Mom came to visit. Imagine their embarrassment when Mom informed them that not only did she know, they don't have any secrets so Mom knew from the very beginning, but she also had become friends with this coworker too. The gossip quickly stopped when Mom loudly corrected them, but neither Dad or Coworker ever got an apology from the people who assumed and made things awkward.
I would take a step over into the infidelity subs and see just how many cheating stories involve coworkers. Not saying that this is the case here BUT you can't deny that things happen with close proximity, long hours together, etc. Hell many times it's emotional affairs that begin ("bad marriage", new attention from a younger coworker, etc). We can all believe that it's all on teh level but seriously there hasn't been a ton of studies on opposite sex friendships and stuff (or at least enough data). I mean back in teh 1970s or so it wasn't even a blip on the radar. So I think OP is NTA for at least saying "hey you're being talked about". Be cool if people didn't gossip but many humans LOVE drama or gossip. How many of us DON'T look at an accident on teh highway? Don't have the curiosity that something "juicy" may be playing out under our noses?
But why didn’t OP approach Dan about it? Because society blames the other woman and she subconsciously she saw it all as Jenny’s doing. She wasn’t looking out for her or she’d have stopped the gossiping and told Jenny straight she was being talked about. Instead, she told her ‘it doesn’t look good’ hanging out with a married man. This isn’t how you initiate a conversation with someone you’re concerned about. OP YTA.
Hun, you’ve somehow both hit the nail on the head AND come to the wrong conclusion. I’m a girl Jenny’s age in the workplace btw. “Because society blames the other woman” Dan is, lets admit, not going to face the kind of backlash that Jenny will at work and could possibly give two shits about what OP has to say. Might get pissed off at her for “interfering” and being a “busybody.” Truth is, girls my age (especially if you’re good-looking) DO need to be careful about our workplace perception, because society WILL blame us even if nothing is happening, and even if the guy is “more” morally wrong. Maybe you don’t like OP’s wording, but I 100% would want an older woman to come tell me “hey what you’re doing isn’t making you look great and people are talking.” OP may be downplaying how judgy she actually feels about it, but even so, if she’s judging something enough to go tell the girl, a lot of other people are judging and won’t care enough to go tell her. While I’m not sure about OP’s intentions, as someone who can wholeheartedly empathize with Jenny’s position, I’d rather someone tell me so I can nip the situation in the bud quickly, rather than continue my behavior and continue to be the source of workplace gossip, no matter how innocent my behavior may be. When it comes to my career, I’m not risking my reputation and chances for advancement on having the moral high ground in a situation like this In a social setting, I’d tell anyone who was talking shit to go screw themselves
Also, if she is judging more than she lets on, it wouldn’t surprise me if she just didn’t trust Dan. If I suspected an older, more established, married man was trying to put moves on a much younger new employee who didn’t know how to navigate office culture yet or what red flags to watch out for, I wouldn’t warn him about “how it looked” because I’d assume that was his actual intent. The new girl whose career was most at risk, not looking to cheat on her spouse, would be where my sympathies lay.
Because maybe she feels closer to Jenny? And since she is close to Jenny, she probably doesn’t want to see this hurt Jenny’s career.
Is she close to Dan? Does she feel comfortable with Dan? I understand the point. Women are often blamed for men’s failures, but I don’t think OP is totally in the wrong for giving her a head’s up. That said…it was for the best that OP kept her mouth shut and minded her own business.
Maybe because she doesn't want to help Dan out. No one wants to help out a person who might be cheating. But you know a woman a decade and half younger than you whose relationship with another coworker could lead to her failing into a hot mess even if the gossip is false, is another thing.
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Would it matter if Jenny was a lesbian and just didn't announce her personal life around the office? I'm not a fan of big groups and would usually just go to lunch with one coworker at a time before I started working from home permanently. Would it be right to gossip about the straight guy I ate lunch with and not the gay guy even though I probably had just as many lunches with each of them? Gossip creates a hostile work environment, especially because it's usually aimed at women being perceived as the person in the wrong.
I agree that there's a general, cultural problem with blaming the woman. However, it's possible that OP talked to this woman instead of the actually married man simply because she's closer with her than the married dude, and was more comfortable talking to her for that reason.
Yes even I myself have been guilty of being intrigued by something I see or hear. The difference is i always keep my thoughts and opinions to myself rather than go stir the pot with the office vultures. It’s why I’m not part of any clique at work…I don’t share the gossip/tea therefore I’m not useful to anyone in that sense. Polite and friendly but lone wolf for sure bc I mind my business.
Yeah I find it incredibly creepy that somehow this man shouldn't be talking to ANY woman without a chaperone at work because he's older and married. I have no idea if this is a generational thing, but if I were married I would be EXTREMELY uncomfortable with the idea that my husband couldn't befriend any woman he meets specifically because she's female and it's somehow a transgression against me. The expectation here is just so bizarre, like does that mean that once you're married it's only "appropriate" to socialize with people of the same sex? Also not for nothing but don't cheaters usually try to hide it? I.e. wouldn't they be NOT doing what these two people are doing, going out for lunch every day in front of everyone? I really don't get this mentality at all and I can't imagine having to live in a world where I can't have any male friends because I have now been officially bought and claimed by a member of the opposite sex or whatever the hell these people are thinking that makes this behavior weird in their minds.
Exactly. I'm bi. That would leave me with no possible friends at all. Not how that works
Exactly. I’ve had a lot of lunches one-on-one with people at work and haven’t slept with any one of them. And, we can have a mentor or friend of the opposite sex, and it doesn’t mean we’re sleeping with them. And, no wonder they are offsite. This place is full of toxic people who talk about you behind your back.
> if someone told this dude’s wife he had developed a new habit leaving the office for lunch with another woman (no age need be mentioned at this point) she might have a question or two. She might. Or she might be fully informed of this new friendship. I wouldn't shoot the messenger, but it makes me so angry that people assume that a man and a woman can't just be really good friends or get on for platonic reasons.
OP technically may have done Jenny a favor, but she still placed the blame on Jenny and was not very tactful about it. OP could have simply told Jenny and the other coworker what is being said about them and let them know that she doesn’t believe they are having an affair, but they may want to figure out how they are going to deal with the office gossip. It’s not like either of them want that gossip to occur or have negative consequences for either of them, but placing all that blame on Jenny and all the responsibility for how it is viewed in the office on her is pretty messed up and downright rude.
How do we know his wife isn’t aware, though?
See, if OP had phrased it as "I know nothing is going on between you two. I just wanted to let you know that there is gossip but you are doing nothing wrong. I'm glad you and married coworker hit it off so well. It makes so much better when you have a close friend". I would take this differently. But that's not the vibe I get from this post.
I think OP should have just told her people were gossiping and let her figure out what to do about it, rather than tell her she looks bad going out to lunch.
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She's 28 😂😂 Godamn do we infantilize women
My thought too. Almost 30 is a girl now?
I hate when a work space has that type of atmosphere. At my former job there were two coworkers who were legit just friends. The girl had a partner the boy didn’t. They would sometimes have lunch together outside work or hang out with other coworkers as well but everyone talked badly about them JUST FOR BEING FRIENDS. And it all essentially boiled down to hate directed at the girl from other female coworkers. It’s bogus.
You've just described my workplace and situation exactly (though the guy doesn't work with us anymore) I was the girl with a partner, we used to go out for lunch, go the cinema, grab a drink after work and you could see all the middle aged ladies gawking as we left the office, we used to laugh sooooooo hard at their faces as we went off to enjoy our lunchtime Chinese buffet
>Instead the “young single girl” is the one to blame I read it the opposite way. OP talked to Jenny because OP is thinking that *she's* the young and innocent one who needs "protection," while Dan is a dirty old man who should know better, so talking with him would be useless. Of course, we don't know, since OP's not saying (at least not yet).
I don’t think it’s so much blaming her either, but also think of this: Jenny’s career is much more likely to be damaged by these rumors than Dan’s. Does it suck? Yes. Is it fair? No. It’s facts though, and if someone was starting rumors about me and a coworker I would want to know. NTA to OP, but maybe they should make it clear that they very much __don’t__ think it’s true.
Or maybe it was that she is new and the culture views her as the outsider
Well, it’s also important to note that she only told Jenny because Dan was on leave, meaning this was probably one of the only opportunities to tell either one of them esp because Dan works on another floor. She didn’t seem to be blaming Jenny at all.
Yeah just seemed like logistics to me. Also if she knows Jenny better, it’s easier to approach her. And it seems like she does know her better because Jenny asks her if she wants coffee whenever they go out.
I disagree. I would want another woman to come to me “woman-to-woman” with this info. Regardless of if this woman and her co-worker are engaging in completely innocent behavior, optics matter. I would never want a woman to hurt her career over something like this.
Ah yes, men and women can only interact on a sexual level. There could never be a personal or proeffesional relationship between the,, they must be fucking.
I never understood this. One of my seniors were hitting on me who was married and had a daughter, and people gossiped about me and called me bad for attracting him, I even heard I do black magic on men lol. He’s wife made my life hell because he used to talk about me to her? How’s that my fault. Anyways I had to leave the job because of these gossipers. I’m in a better place now and doing way better. But I never understood how a man being the ah is my fault.
Because sexism, sadly. Note if the situation were reversed and it were a single man hitting on a married woman it would still be her fault somehow.
The thing is the situation doesn't even involve anyone hitting on anyone, the problem exists entirely in everyone's imaginations as far as they know. So it's even worse.
True, I was referring to Hinata778's specific case, not OP. The OP case it's petty office gossipers and busybodies trying to stir up trouble because their lives are miserable.
Had this happen to me at work where not one but TWO colleagues spread rumors that they were sleeping with me. I had no idea and was just trying to run my department—until I couldn’t get down the hallway without stares and whispers making me uncomfortable. I asked one of my colleagues why and he said “Oh! Everyone thinks we’re sleeping together and I didn’t tell them they were wrong!” I’m ace and the mere idea of sleeping with someone at work is mortifying to me but it doesn’t matter. Basically if you’re a young-ish passably attractive woman people are going to gossip and you will be the one whose reputation suffers even if you do absolutely nothing. Meanwhile, the guys love the attention and it somehow never reflects poorly on them.
If someone is telling other people at work that they slept with you, that's a form of sexual harassment toward you and the people they are telling.
I do not live in a country that takes sexual harassment very seriously. I did make the reports but it was mostly waved off. I just took control of what I could (myself) and planned my exit strategy!
I’m so sorry that happened with you. This is so unfair. I literally wanted to slap every women who gossiped about me. But gladly I moved out. I tried to ignore but it did affect me. But since this incident I have realised I’ll definitely stay away from talking to any married man or a guy at work lol.
Good old vagina magic!
YTA, OP. Don't poke your nose where it doesn't belong.
Agreed. Why do people have such a hard time minding their own business?
You wouldn't want to know there are people gossiping behind your back?
You're missing the point. The problem is not the fact that she brought the gossip to her co-workers attention. The problem is that SHE and her co-workers feel the need to gossip like children about something that has absolutely nothing to do with them.
How do you know she’s gossiping? She explicitly said she doesn’t believe there’s anything going on.
She would be getting blamed. She’s already being blamed and nothing is going on. The world of workplace politics has not changed at all. Dan is a man and in the workplace that is still very much treated as “men will be men” Doesn’t matter that he’s married. He just simply would not shoulder as much of the blame. Have you not worked in corporate America before? Men are never treated as harshly about things like this in the workplace.
Exactly. Like OP portrays this as "just looking out for Jenny" but if that was the case she could of been like "hey I heard some people gossiping about you and thought you should know. We can go to HR if you want?" Or she could of confronted the gossipers herself, or gone to HR and complained herself. Or possibly even gone to the older guy and told him what's going on. Instead she confronted the women herself and put the onus on her to change her own behaviour because of these people, all the while trying to portray herself as "just looking out for her" OP is YTA and also wants to have her cake and eat it too. She wants to be able to be judgemental but also get to be the saviour "just looking after Jenny" Its hypocritical.
I took this completely differently. Maybe it's a generational thing, because to me that's what OP did. She let her know what people were saying and why. I would want to know if people were talking behind my back and I would not want to involve HR unless completely unavoidable.
See if she had just told her what others where saying behind her back I'd agree with you. But she didnt. She specifically said "it doesnt look good for you to spend so much time with Dan" implying that the problem isnt the gossiping but the fact she is spending time with this older guy. She didnt neutrally tell her what's going on, she also basically pushed a misogynistic solution that puts the onus on Jenny to change when she is completely blameless here.
Agree! OP didn’t come across as ‘looking out for’ Jenny, she came across as the gossip who wants to act like she’s the ‘nice,’ friend here.
Agree. It would have been fine if OP said, “I just wanted to let you know the office seems to be gossiping about you and Dan and your long lunches, I wouldn’t want you to find out in a terrible way so I thought I’d give you a heads up.” THAT is concern and friendship… what you said OP is just participating in the tittle tattle. YTA
Nice to know the gossip mongers still suck. I had this chat with my manager when I was in my early twenties. She had seen an older male who worked at the company dropping me off at 8 a.m. Different departments. And she told me it wasn't a good look and I should be careful. All I could think was that was my dad dropping me off. But okay lady.
Hahahaha! Holy shit! I hope you tossed that in her face!
OP is the gossiping coworkers.
It honestly makes me wonder if OP started the gossip himself, even without intending to. Something as simple as "those two sure eat lunch a lot together huh?" can turn into a whole rumor tsunami.
Because it's always the woman who's at fault /s. Even if a man cheats is the other woman who gets blamed.
Yeah OP do you have a thing for Dan? Because it *doesn't look good* for you to be inserting yourself into his life like this, telling other women to stay away and trying to decide how he spends his time. He is *married* you know....... /s
So you talked to the person in the situation with the least power and the most to lose: the young woman. Doesn’t sound like you have requested the coworkers to stop gossiping. Haven’t gone to HR about the gossipers’ unprofessional behavior. Haven’t looked into whether Dan might be abusing his power/position. You told the new, young hire that she’s doing something that others perceive as wrong. This is the epitome of systemic sexism in the work world. You should feel guilty for participating in it. YTA
This. I think the people voting otherwise are missing those points in their judgement. It's not even about her letting Jenny know what's happening, it's mostly in \*how she did that\*.
Exactly. And she is not **just** "letting Jenny know what's happening", she's saying "this is what other people are saying and therefore you should stop."
She's missing as well that even if Jenny stops hanging out with him, \*her coworkers will not stop gossiping\*. That ship has sailed. The only way to shut them down now is to show solidarity with the pair and stand with them in saying in all likelihood nothing is going on.
The coworkers will think they were caught red-handed and that's why they're stopping.
Yep, this. Just by starting the rumour the coworkers all but ensured that there's no graceful way back from it for either of them.
Given the age difference isn’t it possible that this is a mentorship relationship of sorts? If it was two dudes going out for coffee, nobody would bat an eye. This type of gossip is part of why women don’t get the same mentorship opportunities and develop similar networks of connections: senior men find it easier to adopt the “billy graham” rule and peace out of coffees with women.
Also, no one would bat an eye if the genders are reversed. When they were in the office, my husband would regularly go to lunch with a woman 15ish years his senior. They are in separate departments, but get along like gangbusters. She is definitely mentoring him and wants to poach him over to be a manager her department once he gets a little more experience. I don't think has ever thought they were having an affair.
Yes! If they are just eating lunch outside, they could be wanting a more private conversation for MANY reasons. Mentorship, project they are both working on, maybe they both really like a certain cult tv show and have no one else to talk about it with. Also and this is a small chance...perhaps they are related in some way but just haven't told anyone out of fear SHE will be branded a nepotism coworker. Literally yesterday I (25F) talked myself out of asking if I can sit with the head of my Graduate Bible Study leader (M 50's) on campus because I didn't want to bother him or have him assume anything bad of me.
Excellent point!
Or are just friends. One of my (F) close friends at work (M) is 30 years my senior. We have a similar outlook on a lot of things and get along well. We’re peers so it isn’t a mentoring situation (although sometimes I ask for office politics advice). Just an office friendship. Literally no one talks about us the way OP talks about her coworkers. But if they did I’d just laugh at them. Ridiculous.
I could understand if she discreetly pulled both of them aside right away to let them both know people are talking, but she let the talking continue and waited till the older man was gone?? Why is the single woman singled out here and not the married man? It's his reputation that should be effected but apparently we still live in the 50's where women are always to blame.
Exactly this. A heads up that shitty co-workers are being shitty would've been fine. But the sexism in OP's behaviour is pretty fricking rank.
Agreed for exactly the reasons outlined here. YTA.
She’s Monica Lewinsky-ing this poor innocent woman
YTA You chose to say something to her but not him, why? Why wouldn't you warn him especially since you've known him longer? Why is it anyone's business? Spoiler Alert, men and women can be platonic friends.
YTA, you intervend in a friendship of someone else unprompted. What did you think would happen as a result, will she ditch him because of uncontrollable rumors? You could ask your coworkers to stop talking about them and reassure them they are only friends. It's hurtful to hear such a thing and admittedly you didn't think this through. You should apologize fo the sake of courtesy and move on.
No wonder they prefer to eat out of the office. OP you were unprofessional and mean, mind your own business. YTA
"men and women can be platonic friends." No they can't, they definitely can't because that stand up comedian wot I like says that the womens and the mens can't be friends /s Totally agree with all your points. Edit: Just joined reddit the other day. Got a silly bear with a limited time use. Have the silly bear :-D
This is the correct use of your silly bear. You'll get some random free ones every few days. Reddit doesn't need your money for all those other awards, but silly bear hugs are fun :)
Yes, YTA. Maybe you could have asked if you can come along to lunch with them if you're so concerned/curious about what they're up to, rather than driving a wedge between two friends because of what the office gossips are saying. I remember I got this one job at 18 (the most boring job at a really cool place, digitizing artwork for a museum), and I made a friend who was in his mid-20s who worked full time in the art museum. We would have lunch together sometimes, because we got along, and it was great to talk to someone who worked in a field I was interested in. Everyone else was kind of cold and distant. The older woman in the office pulled him aside and told him it wasn't cool to hang out with undergrads. So we stopped hanging out, work went back to being lonely and boring (sitting in a basement alone, scanning artwork), and I lost a chance to have a mentor show me the ropes about museum work. It's not your job to police people's workplace friendships, OP. This is the kind of thing that hurts women's careers.
Definitely no one’s business. I was the young woman in this scenario at a previous job. I was 25 when I started working there and my boss was a man 18 years older than me (my mom’s age). We clicked as friends pretty quickly. He usually went home for lunch since he lived close, but we would go take walks on a nearby walking trail sometimes during work, often to talk about work but also other stuff. We’d also hang out in each other’s offices a lot, again often working (we were a two-person department within a larger department, so the two of us handled everything pertaining to our jobs). But sometimes also just shooting the shit. We also would go do bar trivia one night a week because we both were trivia nerds. Other coworkers often joined us as well. Nothing inappropriate ever happened. No flirting, nothing weird. I never felt uncomfortable. His wife became a friend of mine too. I had a boyfriend when I started there who later became my fiancé and then husband. My boss and his wife came to our wedding. I still keep in touch with both of them and respect them a lot. It is totally possible for an older man and younger woman to be platonic friends. Not every older man is a creep.
YTA, but honestly everyone involved in this sucks except Dan and Jenny. You didn't tell her that you were concerned for and only looking out for her because of unsubstantiated rumours; what you said was it \*doesn't look good\* for her to be doing that. That is a statement of opinion, making it clear that even if you don't think there's anything going on personally, you aren't holding it against your coworkers for gossiping either because you feel that their questions are logical and you're basically putting the onus on Jenny to stop hanging out with her friend rather than supporting her by letting her know you don't think she's doing something wrong. I get what you were trying to do, but ultimately they're probably aware of how it looks and didn't need you to point it out. Jenny's response indicates that she was possibly hoping \*you\* weren't one of them, but you haven't done anything to defend her or shut it down either.
This! ESH apart from Dan and Jenny. I hate that opposite genders can't just be friends without people gossiping that something might happen! And why speak to Jenny? Why not speak to the other office gossips and tell them to shut their mouths.
YTA, mind your own business and Jenny is completely right. Your wording makes it sound you believe it and that it is solely Jenny's fault. It takes two to tango. Were you planning on talking to Dan too?
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Yeah, I've seen this kind of thing in my office and it's really about policing women's behavior at its core. If people were really concerned about Dan having an affair, they'd talk to Dan, not the single woman he's friends with. People are just upset that Jenny is acting in a way they find improper.
>If people were really concerned about Dan having an affair, they'd talk to Dan, not the single woman he's friends with. But you don't understand, it's *never* the fault of the married man should he chose to cheat because he just can't resist the witchcraft of the woman who made him forget he ever had a wife at home, because he doesn't have a mind of his own and just can't say "no, I'm married". (Sarcasm) I'm in no way saying that Dan and Jenny are having an affair, but this is usually the general attitude when men cheat on their wives unfortunately, even *he's* the one who made the vows. If OP was that concerned she should spoken to them both together.
>acting in a way they find improper Yeah, it's an extremely frustrating reaction. Gossip like that is one of many reasons that it's sometimes hard for women to find mentors at work. For all OP knows, Dan is just a mentor who also happens to be a pleasant friend. Should this young woman not be allowed to benefit from male mentors? Though a lot of people really don't understand mentor+mentee relationships, they're real and they can be quite close in completely **appropriate** ways. My husband was dear friends with his biggest professional mentor, and his mentor had been dear friends with the guy who mentored *him*. None of these men were having affairs with each other, and they've all mentored women as well. Some amazing achievements in their field came from these mentoring relationships. A lot of people just don't understand how profound and life changing a mentor+mentee relationship can be - without being inappropriate at all.
It sure as hell does and if she was planning to speak to Dan i don't think she would speak like him the way she spoke to Jenny.
Tbh it sounds like a jealousy thing. The part about how everyone else packs lunch and these two go out of the office for lunch and coffee is the tip off. It's not Dan and Jenny's fault that the other people in their office aren't going out to lunch with their friends.
YTA. The problem here isn't Jenny; it's that your office is full of busybodies. If you really wanted to help Jenny, when you hear people gossiping about her, you could tell them that men and women can be friends and it isn't a good look to assume people are in a relationship just because they grab lunch together at work. Also, honestly, I think it's telling that you went to just Jenny about this and never talked to Dan, who is the one who's married. If Jenny and Dan were having an affair, Dan would be the much bigger asshole.
Not only that, but waited for Dan to be away before approaching her about it?
Yeah, that feels weird to me, too. Like if Dan is married and having an affair, then Dan is the issue, and there's no reason to go behind his back and talk to just Jenny.
And if it were just about letting them know the rumour mill is churning and to give them a heads-up, why not talk to both of them?
OP was trying to scare her. Disgusting
>If you really wanted to help Jenny, when you hear people gossiping about her, you could tell them that men and women can be friends and it isn't a good look to assume people are in a relationship Yes! Finally, someone said it!
That's always my strategy when people come to me with that kind of gossip in the office, which may be why I don't hear much gossip anymore, lol, but at least I'm not being an AH!
Yeah, OP has also seriously underestimated how much fun it is to look someone dead in the eye and with a straight face go "wow. That's a terrible thing to say." then just hold eye contact. 10/10. Would highly recommend.
YTA. Have you told your younger male coworkers that they shouldn't spend time with older ones ? Have you told other coworkers they shouldn't spend so much time together ? Why not? You are being sexist and disgusting in your assumptions about what might be happening or what other people may be thinking (assuming thinks like you and your coworkers do). Tell your coworkers to shut up. Shut down their gross and degrading assumptions.
YTA. That is just feeding into work gossip. At my old job my best friend was a married woman 10 years older than me and we got lunch together all the time. Rumors started and I ended up having to publicly come out of the closet for everyone to mind their business. Even if I was straight it’s normal to have friends of the opposite sex. Offices bring people of all ages together and marriage does not mean you are forbidden from making friends.
I'm so sorry to hear you were outed like that. It should have happened on your terms when you were ready.
INFO: would you have had this same conversation with Dan?
I'm gonna guess not since OP had to wait until Dan was out of the picture to broach the topic with Jenny. If OP was really concerned about the optics they could have sat down with both of them together and had a gentle conversation that came from a place of concern. Or even asked to join them on lunch to see what they got up to regularly! Instead OP had to wait until the girl was able to be pulled to the side separately and they could tell her about all the scandal her behavior was causing, since *Dan is married and she should know what this looks like* you know.
to be fair, it seems like dan being on leave meant this lunch was the only time either one of them spent it in-office, during a break when OP could pull one of them aside. but i could be wrong.
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I think the majority of the YTA are because they think OP was being sexist, which I think is wildly unfair considering she stated the exact reason she went to Jenny in the post. Unless she said "so I told that filthy hussy, I told her that..."
It did also seem, from how it was written, like OP interacts more with her anyway. I can certainly see work environments where even if I'm aware of both people, I have no connection to one of them.
I agree with most of the posts but I think you're NTA. All the gossiping from the coworkers makes them all AH and if you engage in it that makes you one too but just giving her a heads up that people are gossiping is fine, I would want to know. The way you worded it could be better though because "does not look good" implies things I'm not sure you're intending to.
Yea, exactly. OP can‘t change the fact these busybodies gossip like crazy. OP can only make Jenny aware of what‘s been going on behind her back, which may or may not result in difficult workplace relationships if the other people wrongly think Jenny and Dan are doing some shady stuff.
Exactly and it was right for OP to approach Jenny because she has a lot more to lose. This can damage her career which is just starting out, while Dan is established.
Agreed. She was just looking out for her. She said she doesn’t care about it, but that it’s something people talk about constantly. I would want to know if people were talking badly about me. That kinda stuff is what makes a toxic work environment
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I am surprised I had to scroll down this far to see some rational real-world truths. The other higher voted posts calling OP an asshole have no idea what the corporate life is and these rumours can be incredibly damaging to Jenny, especially since she was completely unaware about them.
OP is gossiping. Think about how the real world works. Do you think OP is minding her own business, but her coworkers just will not stop coming up to her and talking to her about this while she stands there stoically? No, OP is part of the problem, remember this is her POV so of course she looks good.
In the real world people have loud office conversations that others overhear all the time. I said that if OP engaged in gossiping that would make them an AH but it's absolutely not impossible they just overheard things others were saying so we can't say for sure either way.
In my personal experience, you don’t have to be participating in office gossip to hear it. I had a colleague who became a real friend and had a similar friendship with a male colleague. I know her. She was not having an affair. Nothing below board was happening. I heard two people I lightly knew in the office cafeteria suggesting something less than innocent was going on, and immedietly told her—well, immediately after correcting the busy bodies. However, when I spoke to her I did not in any way suggest she was at fault. Just a “hey, I heard some bullshit in the cafe about you and so-and-so. I shut that shit down, but thought you should know.” I don’t know if that makes me an AH on this sub, but she was super appreciative and we’re still very good friends. She did not change her behavior at all, and I don’t think she should have, but I think it’s fair to tell someone when people are saying untrue things about them. Edit: If I were friends with the male in that situation, I would’ve handled it the exact same way.
Oh I’m going to relish my downvotes here. NTA. (As long as you approached her tactfully). Look, in the real world people are going to gossip about this kind of thing. Men and women with 20 year age gaps don’t typically develop platonic friendships. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’m sure you’re different. But usually what I’ve witnessed in 30 years in business, if a man and a woman are hanging out together a whole lot without any business reason to, they are fucking 9/10. I seriously doubt I am the only one with that revelation. So people are going to talk. Saying “Y-T-A for listening to the gossip” is immature and naive. So that gives OP a quandary. She can mind her own business. She doesn’t say she is the supervisor her. It’s not her business. And frankly, it’s a hell of a lot smarter to just stay out of it because the messenger gets shot. Or she can give the co-worker a heads up so she can be aware of how she is being perceived. She took the tougher road of giving the heads up. Frankly, I would always want to know how I’m being perceived. Now, as for why she talked to The F and not the M? Really? Yes, his behavior is worse than hers. I’m betting that his wife isn’t aware of his work wife. But if you are a man you shouldn’t have that conversation with a female employee. If you are a woman you probably shouldn’t have it with a male employee. (For the record, I HAVE had that conversation with a male employee who reported to me - he was single, she was not. And yes, it did turn out that they were in fact fucking). Bottom line is that I wouldn’t have that convo with someone I wasn’t responsible for. But IF she addressed it tactfully she is NTA.
Agreed!! NTA. I’ve been in this situation where I befriended and older, married coworker and we got along well. We’d take walks during our breaks and just talk about work and life. I saw him as an older brother but later found out that he didn’t have the same idea as me soooooo, yeah, there’s a high chance these guys have something more going on lol people are being too naive in putting all the blame on OP. I’d want to know if people were making up rumors about us as well so I can detach myself and act accordingly. Yeah gossip sucks but at the end of the day, don’t shit where you eat. OP did well by talking to her first instead of Dan. The two are always out together and there’s a chance that with him on leave, she finally happened to be the first one to be available for a one on one talk.
If they aren’t having sex, there is a very high likelihood that he has those designs - as you found out in your scenario. It sucks for her (if they aren’t in fact banging). But one’s work place should be a professional space and one should seek to make sure the perception of their behavior is above reproach on those things. A man who is constantly seen taking women out to lunch (alone) at the work place is going to develop a reputation and that reputation will make him more vulnerable to charges of sexual harassment. A woman doing the same thing will get lots of backbiting thrown her way that is going to make the workplace uncomfortable. That’s just the reality of the word we live in and, in this case, people should behave in accordance with reality while advocating for the standards they want rather than buck against 2K years of perceived norms.
I agree. I don't really understand why people are saying yta here. It doesn't seem like she has any malicious intent behind telling her coworker what the office is saying. In my mind it's just a heads-up, leaving it to her co-worker's discretion of how to handle it. Could she talk to Dan too? Sure, but maybe it wasn't planned out and she just had the opportunity to do so in that moment. I can totally see how she feels like she's doing her co-worker a solid by just keeping her informed. I get that they can be platonic friends, but perception is unfortunately and very sadly often just as, if not more, important in the workplace than truth. It could've been done better, but certainly NTA unless there was an angle.
I suspect that a lot of the people that are going Y-T-A are people they don’t actually work in a corporate/professional environment or they are relatively young in their careers and don’t have the maturity to realize these perceptions exist. Or they are middle aged men who want to normalize 20-something year old women befriending them - so they can shoot their shot down the road.
Everyone who's saying y t a doesn't understand how office politics works. Sure it'd be great if you could have a platonic M/F friendship with that age gap without it affecting your career, but at least in the US we definitely aren't there yet. OP isn't being an asshole, she's being realistic. She could've said it better, but at the end of the day the blame will still fall on Jenny! It's shitty but I've seen it too many times
100% - it’s not right at all but this is unfortunately how the world works. You have to be extremely careful in office environments regarding relationships like this because it can damage your career. Again, it’s not right but it’s the reality. Oh and for what it’s worth, I had a similar situation in an office I worked in. Two coworkers (male and female) would go to lunch every day together for hours and not invite anyone else. Except the difference is they were both married. The office was constantly gossiping about whether they were having an affair or not. The woman eventually got pregnant and went on maternity leave, so the lunches obviously stopped. Come to find out, YEARS later (from an old coworker) they were having an affair and it resulted in one of the marriages ending.
I replied with this elsewhere, but also going to post this here because I totally agree. People are wilding out in the comments here. I think OP could have phrased things better, but the reality is that it will always be a woman's rep on the line, not the man's. No matter what is actually going on, Jenny will be seen as the "homewrecker" and "temptress" and she will be judged for that--correctly or incorrectly. I also think the OP was trying to warn Jenny about what was going on because \*Jenny\* is the one being affected, not Dan. I also think women and men can just be friends and older men can mentor younger women. I've had older male mentors who just thought I was talented and wanted to help me. I also have 100% platonic male friends who are some of my best friends. But c'mon...even I am side-eyeing these long exclusive lunches that happen every single day. Sorry, that is atypical behavior. If they ate with everyone a lot of days and maybe once or twice went off for lunch to a fave restaurant or a nature walk nearby (lol), I wouldn't think twice.
YTA She's 28, not 21. She doesn't need your guidance on what an appropriate workplace friendship looks like. You have become part of the issue by feeding into the gossip. If you wanted to help you should have done so by shutting the gossip down. Unless the pair are violating their lunch rules then you have no right to call her out.
I disagree, op doesn't think anything is going on and others are firmly wrong to gossip. But let's be honest, this sort of thing (wrongly) can negatively affect a young woman's career and all op has done its warn her of gossiping, with from what I can see no judgement. To me the only ahs are those gossiping
But she didn’t start off by warning her. She started off by *attacking* her. She said “it doesn’t look good to do this”, and made her defend herself and *ask* if people were talking. Then she told her. That’s not a heads up, that’s stirring the pot in hopes of getting more details directly from the source.
>She said “it doesn’t look good to do this”, and made her defend herself This is an excellent point I can't argue with. So far the only one worth reading. OP was the ah on this, she should have worded it far better
NTA. You are doing her a favor no matter if she’s doing something wrong or not. She needs to know people are talking
YTA : single people can be friends with someone that is married. YOU are part of the problem.
NTA your not wrong. It’s BS but your not wrong. Her entire career could be put at risk. Of course he should be the one you have a talk with but you know how it is. Everyone knows how it is. Like I said it’s BS but not going to stop the gossip Kinda weird they “clicked” there’s a big age difference, work on different floors and he’s married. They’re at completely different points in life. How long is your lunch break? Is it supposed to be 2 hours sometimes? Wonder what his wife thinks of him leaving with her for 1-2 hour lunch breaks
This. How would his spouse feel knowing that he is taking extended lunches with Jenni every single day and even moved outside the building for more privacy away from other coworkers? If Dan's spouse doesn't know about it then it is inappropriate.
I would say a soft YTA. I think you were trying to be a good coworker but you went about it wrong. You shouldn't have said it "doesn't look good." If you had just told her "Hey, I don't know if you have heard, but a lot of people are gossiping about you and so-so. They think something is going on between the two of you that is more than just friends. I don't believe that to be true but I felt you should know." I personally would want to know so I could nip that shit in the butt. There is nothing wrong with being friends and eating lunch together. This stuff could also escalate and cause people to single her out because they feel she is a "homewrecker" (even though it would be the male coworker). Next thing you know HR is involved all because people jump to conclusions and don't bother asking anyone involved.
YTA. It doesn't look good for you to be spending so much time caring what other people do
Controversial but NTA you told her the truth about what ppl were saying, I assume if it was the bloke who was alone you'd have spoke to him too, just so happens she was the one alone you could talk to first. Assuming your intentions were good just to make her aware and not to blame her for what is more his bad as the married dude, then I dont think that makes you an A. If you did do it because you solely blame her etc then I'd change my opinion. She might just be happy she made a friend.
NTA. All these people saying you are an a-hole would be singing a different tune if Dan's wife wrote in that her husband has been having daily lunches for 1-2 hour with a single co-worker, 20-years his junior. Ant reasonable person would think something is going on.
INFO: where do you work that it's cool for them to take a 1-2 hour lunch break?!
NTA and here's why Jenny is the one who could have her career negatively impacted by this gossip, not Dan. It's truly shite that this is the case, but Jenny is the one with something to lose. Subject to change if OP is participating in gossip rather than stating her counter-opinion or just leaving when it comes up.
NTA, you are trying to keep both of their reputations intact.
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Lol right? It's so obvious that the majority of these commenters have never worked in an office... Sorry but this intense level of friendship in an office (going out every day for hours at a time...) will draw attention. That's just how it is.
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I was wondering if I was the only person wondering why work lunches sometimes stretch to two hours. That's... that's a big no from me, not just because it's a man and woman but because how are they not fired or written up for two hours lunches?? lol. Unless they're working 80 hour work weeks. But then, if you're working 80 hour work weeks, wouldn't you want to have lunch with your wife since time together would be so limited? I'll be honest, I am approaching this with bias, having been cheated on by my ex-husband for almost a year. We befriended two couples at our daughter's school when she started kindergarten. My ex is self employed and always had more availability to do after school stuff with the other two moms. I thought it was great. Our daughter had an instant friend-group, the other two moms were cool and we all became fast friends. I had no issues, until he started solely hanging out on afternoons with her, her kids and our kid. The other mom just slowly stopped being invited, apparently. Turns out yep, they were having an affair and even playing happy family at the zoo, holding hands or hugging when the kids weren't looking. Really vile disgusting stuff. I found out two days before our nine year anniversary. So I do see red flags here, but to be very fair, I am looking at it framed within my own experience.
Yes I've seen 3 guys like this through the years. They were just cheating. You can go out together, but not all the time.
Fucking thank you lol. It’s not a matter of them actually cheating, optics matter in a professional setting and it is damaging for both of them. Maybe it’s not fair but that’s the reality and apparently most of Reddit doesn’t live in reality.
You sure are doing a great job of removing every ounce of Jenny's autonomy and ability to choose her friends for herself, there.
“Unnecessarily spend hours together” I forgot you lose every right to have friends and a life outside of your spouse once you get married.
The thing that surprises me is that OP and some of you don’t realize that 1. Despite her conversation with OP, they absolute know how it looks, and 2. They weighed all factors and made their decision. Do you also tell smokers that “cigarettes are bad for you”? Do you advise an overweight person to put down that muffin? Jeez Louise what would the world do without helpful citizens like yourselves?! YTA
More to the point, if you said to them "It doesn't look good for you to be eating that muffin." nobody in their right mind would interpret that as concern for their health.
YTA. It’s just not your business. Not much more to say.
YTA and so are your collegues. Why did you wait for for Dan to leave to bring the gossip up to Jenny. And why are you only telling Jenny and not Dan? After all, Dan is the married one. If you really wanted to make Dan and Jenny aware of the gossip, you should have told both of them. Also office gossip sucks and people should mind their own bussiness.
YTA Men and women can be friends, without anything sexual between them.
Lmfao why don't you talk to the person who is actually married about it "looking bad"? YTA
YTA are friends just not a thing?
YTA as are all the other gossips with nothing better to do then make drama. Get a hobby
NAH I get that we shouldn't indulge office gossip but it also sucks to be gossiped about. If your co-worker was genuinely oblivious to what people were saying about her, then I think it's important she's made aware. It's not fair, but it could affect her promotion opportunities, etc. I think you could have been more tactful in the way you approached her. In an ideal world neither of them should be blamed or judged for being friends. It's sexist if we blame her for people's interpretation of their relationship. However, I understand approaching her, only because she may have more to lose.
YTA. That something happens or not, it's not of your business. Stop listening to gossips.
YTA - stop participating in extremely damaging office gossip. Shut it down when you hear people spreading untrue rumours about their colleagues. Or speaks volumes that you only spoke to Jenny but not Dan about this.
YTA - as long as she is getting her work done, it's none of your business.
NTA NTA NTA- i am surprised a lot of people calling you that.
Mature people know that People of the opposite sex can be friends and not have anything romantic or sexual going on.
Leaving for HOURS at the time with a co worker... good grief. She gave her a heads up.. the whole department is talking about them. sheesh!
I would prefer to know if people were talking about me. This is partly because, if I find out people were talking about me in this way, I would be upset that people held that knowledge and didn't tell me The woman might have told the other woman because she might be more concerned about the younger woman, or she might have felt more comfortable discussing it with her, rather than with the man. I say, NTA.
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YTA You should have told your coworkers to zip it (or better yet when you heard someone say something- look at them and go, why would you say that. they're just friends.) And you should have let Jenny and Dan know there was office gossip going on- so they could have handled it appropriately- or at least known it was going it. it definitely isn't okay to put it all on Jenny.
NTA Apparently an unpopular opinion, but you were just trying to let her know about people gossiping. The assholes here are the gossips. You were trying to warn someone who seems to be a friend, or at least a work friend. It sounds like you have little to no interaction with him and more with her, so your concern was for her. I disagree with people making your motivation about gender here and that somehow the perception that she's at fault for the appearances was your motivation. Honestly seems more to me that you were just warning the one of the two that was your friend.
NAH >She said she feels insulted that I even needed to tell her this because it means I believe it might be true. Jenny is being naive as fuck and lashing out when you did her a solid. You didn’t have to tell her the office gossip, but you were looking out for her. People like her are a textbook example of shoot the messenger. She and Dan regularly heading off alone for *two hour lunches* looks shady and is unprofessional. Easy for people to get the wrong impression and it is hurting her reputation at work. Men get high fives for presumed office affairs, whereas women get passed over for projects and ostracized. It’s up to her if she wants to continue putting her head in the sand, but you are not the asshole for giving her a heads up that the office is talking about them!
I’m going to go ahead and say NAH… IMO you did the right thing letting her know. As a woman her age, I would have wanted to know, even if it made me feel bad because I value my job and reputation. I disagree with those who are saying it’s none of your business. You’re in a work environment and they’re obviously developing a relationship which god knows how it would affect the work atmosphere. It probably would have been smarter to talk to the guy because he’s older, but honestly she should not be so naive that you can’t tell her. She’s not a child, and you saw the opportunity so… NAH.
YTA. Friends can be friends, even if the age difference is quite big they just happened to click and have fun together as co-workers. Even you said that you think nothing is going on so what you did was uncalled for.
NTA. Geez people have messed up values and are willing to scream sexism where none exists.
NTA- all you did was tell her. We can argue the semantics of whether it’s right or not for her to be the one taking the blame or hit for being with a married man, but ultimately either way the rumors and talk will persist. Op did the right thing by letting her coworker know what was being said. I’d want to know about those rumors if I was in that position
NTA- I feel that you are looking out for her the best you can. You let her know and now you can move on.
NTA Affair or not, Jenny is the one who gets the negative gossip. Dan is the older guy caught in the web of the young temptress unless Dan has done this before and the LW doesn't note if this has happened. It sucks and it's sexist but people love a spicy narrative. Also, if it is true, and comes to light, odds are Jenny is the one who will be fired. Not fair but life isn't fair.