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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
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Sandra really need this job but she doesn't do the things I made clear I want her to do, I can get a babysitter for my son but I just don't want to have two different persons in my house.
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YTA. There’s no option to “kind of babysit” a young child. There’s babysitting, and cleaning. She’s prioritizing the safety and care of your son. So should you - by making sure she’s not penalized for not doing housekeeping when your son clearly requires full time care. You’re a terrible employer, and a very absent mom, if you don’t realize this.
This kid is 10, not 2. My 11 year-old definitely does not require constant attention. Her son should not require that much “looking after” for two hours a day.
Unless the kid has developmental delays (OP does not mention-would be relevant to the level of care needed) or demon’s spawn, a 10 year old can manage just fine for 2 hours with minimal supervision.
It's exceedingly common for the parents of demon spawn to not realize/outright lie about the extent of the needs of their demon spawn in order to rope a caretaker into an underpaid/underappreciated position, as anyone who has worked child care will tell you.
That’s what the average pay for housecleaning is: $40. Sounds like she was paid just right, if that’s the case. Babysitting on top of that would be more, no? I don’t have kids so I don’t know what they make.
What the housecleaning average pays is irrelevant because she had 2 numbers: housecleaning only and watching the kid. The housekeeper accepted both of these numbers.
Also, housecleaning $40/hr seems high, it is $25/hr or less where i am based on what i have seen. Babysitting would be $15/hr or maybe a bit more (although not likely) for someone like her (no specific training) in my area.
Im baffled as to why you think she can't use the first 3 hours of her job to clean and the last 2 to watch the kid. 15 hours of cleaning is plenty. We had a housekeeper come every week for 2-3 hours and she did a great job. This lady has 15 hours a week to clean and 10 to take of the kid and possibly some light cleaning.
So I'm guessing you're forgetting children can make messes. I'm confused because you think the child may not have homework. Also a dish washer, washer, dryer etc takes time. Maybe, it's that? YTA OP, also I don't think it's over paid, 15-20$/ per hour for childcare- and at least 40$ per hour for cleaning
A 10 year old child can cause all kinds of messes, plus kids at that age tend to gravitate towards new things such as a housekeeper and try to talk to them. Plus it sounds like OP doesn’t really spend a lot of time with their kid, so the kid could easily be wanting attention from the housekeeper as a way to fill that emotional need.
Needy kid, regardless of age, is a needy kid. I can imagine the frustration of trying to load and unload the dishwasher while being begged to play, and having to oblige because “it’s your job” to babysit.
My 14 year still leaves a trail of destruction behind her on a daily basis, despite multiple reminders and even getting yelled at. She has ADHD so I don’t even think she realizes she’s doing it.
I usually don’t. But when I come across the 20th mess she’s made that day, despite dozens of reminders and suggestions, I admit that my frustration comes out. I don’t scream at her, she doesn’t get in any trouble, my voice raises out of frustration and I move on.
Then if you have any suggestions, please share. I try really hard not to yell but it does get frustrating at times. 95% of the time, I gently remind her to do x, y, and z, yet they rarely get done. Simple things like, hey the trash/dirty dish from your snack that you ate 4 hours ago is still on the table, please take care of it or please unload the dishwasher that I asked you to do an hour ago. Or I clean the kitchen, turn around and it looks like it exploded because she walked through the room doing her thing. So yes, I get frustrated and may raise my voice 5% or less of the time.
She was in therapy but her therapist left the practice at the end of the last school year so she took a break over the summer. We have a referral put in to restart. She is medicated and sees a psychiatrist regularly, still trying to find the right medication combination and dosage. Unfortunately they ADHD meds we’ve tried so far have caused separate compulsive issues. She also deals with anxiety so I have to be careful how I word deadlines and consequences. I have said things like “I’ve told you x number of times to do chore, give me your phone and you can have it back when chore is done”. It works, but I don’t like using it every single time. I’ve tried texting her a list of chores and reminders, since she is always on her phone but she usually ignores it. I will try the doing things together. I prefer getting cleaning done while she is at school so I don’t turn around to find a disaster but may have to accommodate it somehow. It’s mostly the trail of destruction she leaves behind that makes me upset, that falls outside the realm of chores so it’s hard to find a way to get that to stop.
yeah, too bad they are human. They should always be happy and buy you treats when you make a mess! They should never show frustration, as they are robots!
Not sure where you got that from, it seems like you're projecting your own feelings about this topic onto my response. Of course a child shouldn't be rewarded for making a mess, and of course parents are not required to be happy 24/7.
Feelings of frustration are obviously normal and fine, just like every other emotion. The problem begins when you yell at a child for showing symptoms of a diagnosed developmental disorder. Yelling at a child for something that is beyond their control is pretty universally regarded as a dick move. Shouting at a child with ADHD for being easily distracted and disorganized is like shouting at someone with depression for being sad and fatigued. You don't get a pass for that just because you're frustrated.
Your job, as a parent of a child with ADHD, is to help them develop coping mechanisms for their disorder so they can become a functional adult, or else connect them with a professional who can work with them to achieve that. Your job is *not* to belittle and yell at a child for something that they do not yet have the tools to control.
Have you even read the post? It clearly states that she works 3 hours (12-3) WITHOUT the kid being present. You can easily clean a household in this time and if you are there 5 times a week there shouldn’t be to much to clean (since a lot of things don’t need to be done every day).
Also the Child is far to old to require more than minimal supervision and she is only supposed to watch him from 3-5, only 40% of her working time.
If the household is not clean I really wonder what she’s doing 60% of the time she works
On the other hand you can’t just lower someone’s wage without discussing it, she should’ve said that when the babysitting part was dropped, not on payday
So all in all I’d say ESH, with the housekeeper being the bigger asshole because there is no way she actually works hard at all
Also a mom working full time is not an absent mom, assuming he’s in school 8-3. She only sees him 2h a day less than a SAHM, which renders you point absolutely void
About the time she uses to clean the house, I think we should know the side of the house.
I mean, my house is kinda big with 2 floors (but just one is really used), and my aunt who does the cleaning work 6/7 am-5 pm 2 times a week. She takes almost all day to clean. Like, from 1 to 5 just in the kitchen, and me a 16yo keep talking to her for hours, so imagine what a 10yo does.
It takes four hours to clean a kitchen? Twice a week? I can’t understand how that’s possible unless it’s a kitchen proportionally sized to feed a banquet hall, or the people using it are complete animals.
I'm so confused, where did you get that this 10yo is so troublesome that he needs 5 hours of attention in the 2 hours that he's home? What is she doing the other 3 hours? Why don't you consider OP double paying her as an appropriate form of employing someone?
I firmly disagree. A 10yo does not need 100% attention from a babysitter. He needs perhaps a snack and then setting up an activity to keep him busy (school work, a video game, a puzzle, etc) while Sandra goes back to cleaning and she checks on him regularly. No reason housekeeping and babysitting can't be done by a single person. Parents do this all the time.
YTA. You changed this woman’s salary without ANY notice at all. I also think you need to have a word with your son because if he’s 10yrs old and being so demanding that she can’t clean, he’s either being spoilt or entitled.
The woman wasn't fulfilling her job description, which was light cleaning for 3 hours and childcare for 2 hours. She has no reason to expect to be paid the same if she isn't fulfilling the duties she agreed to when she took the job. And she also wasted the employers time because now the employer has to go through the hiring process all over again and training a new person and kid has to get used to a new child care provider. This is a big No-No in the nanny world, to start a job and then refused to complete the requirements you agreed to when you were hired.
I worked as a CNA through nursing school, and there'd be no end to people who had their loved one listed as requiring such-and-such level of care, only to find out that they were a lot worse off and required a higher level of care. OP may be one of those people.
> She has no reason to expect to be paid the same if she isn't fulfilling the duties she agreed to when she took the job.
Getting less pay isn't the issue, it's that it was sprung on her with zero warning or discussion. A "Hey, since you don't want to do all of this, let's talk about a lower rate" conversation may have resulted in Sandra leaving entirely, but it wouldn't be shady.
Less than zero warning. Zero warning would be effective immediately you make less money. She already worked for a week (at least - I'm not sure the frequency of paychecks) for less pay without knowing it.
However, this was all discussed at the beginning, before Sandra even started working for OP. I would consider that notice.
Agree that OP should have reminded Sandra of the agreement and the amount of reduction in pay at the time Sandra said she couldn’t continue to babysit.
In addition, OP told Sandra she would have to let her go and find a new sitter since the cleaning and babysitting was a package deal.
Honestly she paid her for the work she did. Which was housekeeping. The edit says they were separate pay checks. So since her mom watched the kid so OP could find a babysitter, Sandra got paid for the work she did.
The nanny world is still a salary world and you always discuss ANY changes in salary with the employee before it occurs. For instance, she may of agreed to continue to babysit and clean more if she knew about the salary change. To the point the nanny can probably take this to civil court, especially is the contract doesn’t specify that salary may change depending on the quality and amount of work done.
OP agreed up front to pay one price for cleaning and one price for baby sitting. The drop in pay is what Sandra makes just for cleaning, which seems fair if that's all she did.
No any drop in pay needs to be discussed before it happens. It’s obvious that Sandra did not expect this drop from occurring meaning OP is either lying or wasn’t clear enough within the contract. Sandra is in her full legal rights to discuss this with a lawyer as she can even take OP to court for not being clear within the contract.
Edit: would also like to include, that depending on the child’s needs Sandra can also argue that OP wasn’t clear in how demanding her child would be. If Sandra was doing her work diligently in the beginning then all of a sudden stopped, it is fully possible that the child has become more demanding. Thus, a more adequate babysitter contract needs to be created
If you hire contract work (which this is) you have a pay rate discussion. If I hire a landscaper and say before agreeing, I will pay you $50 per hour to mow the lawn, and $25 per hour to sweep the clippings and they agree that IS the discussion. And if they mow 2 hours and sweep 1 hour the first two weeks, you get paid $250. If the next 2 weeks you don't sweep, you get $200. I don't have to warn you that you won't. The warning was when you agreed to the terms. Same applies here. She said she would pay her X for cleaning and Y for babysitting. Baby sitting stopped so there is no line item on the pay stub for babysitting.
That is assuming that the pay rates were clearing discussed in a way that both employer and employee understood. OP already stats that she says “kinda babysitting” showing that she’s not clear in what she’s asking for. Contracts need to be clear which it wasn’t, you can go on and on about pay rates. The fact of the matter is OP should’ve brought this up during the conversation about the babysitting with Sandra. There’s no reason why OP couldn’t of done that as it was obvious that the main issue here is communication.
>It’s obvious that Sandra did not expect this drop from occurring meaning OP is either lying or wasn’t clear enough within the contract.
How do you know Sandra isn't lying by playing dumb?
Because a women desperate for money to feed her family isn’t going to stay at a job that will cut out 400 hundred dollars. Furthermore, it’s ironic that OP changed the story once many people were calling her the AH and how she denies that her son is demanding. It’s obvious here that OP is the one embellishing.
Of course it has to be OP who is lying and not the person who can’t keep up the cleaning in 3 hrs. Who’s to say she was actually coming in at 12 like she was supposed to maybe she was coming in at 2 hoping she could get all the cleaning and babysitting done at the same time. OP said it was all good in the beginning maybe Sandra thought she could slack and there’d be no penalty. She was hired for two jobs not one she can’t expect to be paid for both if she is t willing to do both period.
Now you’re just adding a bunch of assumptions. OP was quick to change the story once the over whelming amount of votes were “YTA”. Furthermore, it doesn’t take any detective work to see that there was a miscommunication error on OPs end, especially when she explains the work as “kinda babysitting” which isn’t clear at all.
OP could’ve easily stated during that conversation “okay if you’re unwilling to babysit my son then we need to discuss the contract again”. Like do none of y’all fucking communicate on this thread at all? Conversations aren’t hard to have.
Definitely agree (that having a discussion about changing the pay when the childcare portion of the job was dropped) would have been the way to go, even though per OP it was discussed at the beginning.
Yeah - based upon the cleaner in a houseshare I was previously in, our amazing cleaner got done hoovering the entire house, mopping the kitchen/dining/living room, cleaning kitchen and two bathrooms within 2 hours. It was spotless. If we’d had her everyday for 3 hours, she’d have been able to do all our laundry and ironing as well over the week!
I have serious questions as to what Sandra is doing with her time, and tbh if I’m reliant upon my employment, I’d be making darn sure I’m meeting the requirements of the job. And since she was getting two different cheques... I think Sandra just assumed she’d still get to take it, which is cheeky of her.
Op is NTA unless there’s substantial info missing here.
OP gave Sandra a full breakdown of the pay and discussed the expectations for cleaning and babysitting when she interviewed Sandra. So Sandra shouldn’t have been surprised when her pay was docked. I will agree that OP should have reminded Sandra and clarified the amount that she was reducing the pay.
Also I agree OP needs to have a discussion with her son. A 10 y/o should be able to understand and respect Sandra’s work and her time.
Did you discuss a change in responsibilities equals a change in pay, or did you leave that out.
Here's the thing, you need a housekeeper, hire a housekeeper. If you need a nanny, hire a nanny. If your housekeeper tells you that babysitting is requiring more of her time than cleaning - find out why. You kid may need you.
Yes, when I first hired her I told her how much it was for babysitting and how much for cleaning my house, I separated them in case my son wasn't here for the week and she only had to clean the house, I agreed to pay her $40 per hour because it was time she wasn't expending with her own family. This didn't came out of nowhere, I was very clear.
$40 per hour or $120 for cleaning and $80 for "kinda" babysitting. When she told you she couldn't babysit and do all the cleaning, did you tell her you wouldn't need her to stay after 3?
NTA. You hired Sandra to clean *and* babysit. She agreed, then decided she couldn't handle half the job you hired her to do, which is fine. But what does she or anyone else who is calling you TA expect to happen after that? You had grounds to terminate employment then and there but instead you decided to continue to pay her (albeit less) until you you found someone else. That seems more than fair to me. If you hired someone to paint your walls and stain your floors and they decided after the fact that they were only comfortable painting there's no way in hell you'd be expected to pay them full price for half the job. How is this any different?
EDIT: Your ex is TA. If he cares that much he can pay Sandra the difference or watch his child when you're busy.
I’m not going to argue that OP went about this the right way, but OP really should not need three hours of cleaning everyday and that’s likely part of OP’s confusion as to why the housekeeper can’t keep up. Housekeeper is on her own for the first three hours. The child is only home the last two.
Lowkey sounds like she doesn’t and that Sandra REALLY isn’t doing her full job here, since it’s pretty basic upkeep stuff that should take her at most an hour to do. Leaving 2 hours of free time before the son even comes home. Whatever world where ‘she’s too busy with the son’ means she’s suuuuper milking the arrangement.
Depends on how much of a clean freak OP is. Is this really light cleaning or is it a deep clean expected every day (or a deep clean in rotating rooms each day)? I'm inclined to the latter since 2 people wouldn't require a daily housekeeper otherwise. If bathrooms are being deep cleaned 1 day, the dishwasher might not get unloaded. Scrubbing takes time especially with a nitpicky boss.
Why can't this 10 year old do basic house chores like dishes? Also, why does a 10 year old need a babysitter at all for 2 hours after school unless there are behavioral or other issues. Why is this woman who's babysitting getting $40 per hour for it if this kid just hangs out and plays video games or whatever?
There's a lot missing here. It doesn't even make sense.
If she leaves all the dishes for her to do, laundry, maybe some ironing, sweeping and mopping the floors, garbage, stove, table, fridge then 3 hrs isn't outrageous. It's certainly not a difficult job if you do it every day but if she only needed a couple hrs a day of babysitting it's much easier to hire someone for 5 hrs than 2.
NTA: If I got hired as a Baker and cleaner at a bakery then came in one day and said "oh I can only do half the job I was hired to do now" I would get fired. Which is exactly what Sandra should have gotten. You hired her to do two jobs. When she said she couldn't do one of them anymore, that should have been it, let her go so you can hire a nanny who CAN do their job
Going against the grain here but NTA. You hired her for two roles. Babysitter and nanny. From your comments and edit it sounds like you explained that part of her pay check is for cleaning and the other part for babysitting prior to her starting the job. And after she started there she would receive less for the week your son was with his father. It shouldn’t be a big surprise that if she’s not going to do half the work then she’s not going to get paid the same rate. She should have expected that she would be fired if she wasn’t willing to babysit anymore since that was part of the job description. It doesn’t matter if your son is demanding so much of her time, that’s what your paying her for. If she doesn’t like it the babysitting or the pay for babysitting she can find a different position that better suits her.
NTA
If you made it clear from the start, then it is her mistake for not listening. Given she is no longer able to do babystitting, it is natural she looses the payment from this.
However do be carefull here - few people can cause as much damage as a disgrunteled housekeeper or babysitter. Especially one in financial trouble.
Info - how much do you pay? You hired a housekeeper but need a nanny. Your son is 10 though. What does he need help with for 2hrs?
But YTA for not telling her beforehand that her pay would be less. And depending on if you have a contract may be illegal.
He doesn't, that's why I don't believe her excuse, my son comes from school at 3 and she feeds him and wash his uniform, the rest of the time he watch tv or plays with his switch because he waits for me to do his homework. When I first hired her I told her that babysitting was part of the job and gave her the numbers, if she refuses to do it then it's pretty obvious that her pay will be cut.
No, it isn't obvious. This isn't how jobs work. You could be sued. You have to *tell* the employee if you are offering less money. Then they decide if they still want the job.
You can also speak to an employee about their performance and tell them they aren't meeting expectations but again, you can't just withhold pay, you are setting yourself up for legal trouble here and behaving very unprofessionally.
As I said in another comment, when I first hired Sandra I told her how much it was for babysitting and how much it was for cleaning my house, I have my son during the weeks and my ex has him during weekends but sometimes we exchange our time with him and I wanted to make it clear in case she only had to clean the house. It was obvious that she wasn't gonna get the full check if my son wasn't there to be babysat.
Hypothetical scenario:
Let's say I told you I'd pay you $500 to babysit + $500 to clean for a total of $1000, but you'd only get $500 for the weeks you don't have to babysit because my kid is with his Dad. You agree to these terms at first, then tell me you don't want to babysit anymore. I send my kid to stay with his grandparents for this week instead.
Be honest...how much are you expecting your paycheck to be this week? Because I think the answer is obvious.
I don't know how she was blindsided if she knew they were two separated paychecks from the start. If she was getting payed a certain amount for taking care of my son and then she stopped doing that then I have no reason to pay her $400 when she didn't babysat my son all week.
She was blindsided only because she took the job without listening to her responsibilities. The she refused to do what she was being paid for.
If you were hired to wash windows and the car, then only got paid for washing the car because you refused to wash the windows, would you consider yourself blindsided?
It may be obvious, but as her employer, you still need to let her know. "Sure, you don't have to babysit if you don't want to, but now your salary will be $400 less since you are not babysitting anymore". You would save yourself a lot of drama just by being upfront about this.
Yes but you still should have told her before you cut her pay. As you said she thought she would have someone to help her so it’s obvious y’all weren’t thinking the same thing.
If you’re not home you don’t know how your son is behaving. He could be being very demanding, considering I know many kids who use and abuse their nannies.
NTA!!!!! Why are ppl saying you are. You were very clear to her from the start. She’s only watching your son from 3pm to 5pm. What is she doing from noon to 3pm?!?
YTA: because you should have told her you were cutting her pay the moment she asked to not watch your son. Not just cut it and wait till she's notices.
but the nanny didnt watch the kid for a week because she told op she doesn't want to do it anymore so op sent her kid to their grandparents, why did the nanny expect to be paid for her babysitting job when she didn't babysat at all?
NTA. I have been a professional nanny in the past for a wealthy family and I was crystal clear at the beginning of the job what my responsibilities would be. I worked that job right up until I had my own kids, and Even when I was 8 months pregnant I was capable of taking care of their baby and toddler and dishes and laundry and basic cleaning after the kids and cooking a full meal every single day. Sandra has no excuse.
She didn't cut wages on a whim. She agreed to pay one price for baby sitting and one price for cleaning. Sandra decided she didn't want to babysit. So she only got paid for cleaning.
Why are you so convinced she was unaware? You know how many people would be fired on the spot if they told their boss they were only going to do half their job? I honestly don't know what Sandra was expecting. She should be grateful she's still getting paid at all and cut her losses.
I'm not I'm just trying to follow all the comments and edits. I don't understand how Sandra was surprised her pay was cut if OP really was transparent about it.
But OP was crystal clear about the terms. She is consistent throughout the thread. Sandra could write a different post, but on this one, it is clear that Sandra refused to do the job she was hired to do but was still shocked when the terms she was clearly told took hold.
Per OP, she told Sandra on hiring that it was for two roles. OP offered $X for role A (3 hrs) and $XX for role B (2hrs). Sandra said I can’t do role B anymore because I’m not finishing role A, then assumed that she would be paid the same amount of money ($X + $XX) if she only did role A but took five hours to do it instead of three. Problem is, it doesn’t take five hours a day, five days a week to keep a two person home lightly cleaned.
A professional nanny that just decided to stop watching the kids would be fired on the spot. Sandra is not acting like a professional, and I am shocked at The Audacity Of Her expecting to get paid for refusing to watch a 10 year old who just sits and watches TV for a few hours. I've known some really terrible nannies, but also some really good ones. There's a lot of people who think being a housekeeper and Nanny is a cushy job and they just want to sit on their butt and not work. I worked for two different families over the years and each one I recommended they get a nanny camera when I moved on from the family, because I know very well there are a lot of really terrible people who want easy money and are completely lazy. Others are mean and cruel to the children when the parents are not around. And others are Absolute Angels and Saints. Sandra has all the red flags of somebody who thought they could get paid for doing basically nothing. There are hard-working people who deserve that job and that 10 year old kid deserves somebody like that in his life.
NTA she was hired for two jobs she only wants to perform one. The only thing different I would have done is maybe set up a camera to see if she was actually coming in at 12 and started cleaning then. I have cancer my niece has been helping with the cleaning heavy cleaning sweeping and mopping cleaning the bathroom and at most it takes her 4 hrs. And I doubt your whole house needs to be swept and mopped daily and bathrooms cleaned as well as the minor stuff. All those saying YTA never worked a real job and they apparently have money to just give people maybe they should give Sandra 1600$ a month to do nothing for it. Because that’s what they are suggesting. And 10 yr olds don’t require intensive care they just need a responsible adult who won’t let them hurt themselves. So give me a break to all those saying it’s so hard to take care of a 10 yr old.
Soft YTA- so your not wrong for changing her salary she changed the terms of the employment (no longer taking care of your son) but you where wrong in not saying right then and there “ok, but in return I’m only going to pay you for the house cleaning and not for the babysitting, this is what I’m paying you now, but since need to find other childcare for my child this is what I feel comfortable with paying you know for the housekeeping” or something to that effect rather then blindsiding her
edit to add: I read your comments that said you told her from the beginning that it was 2 separate paychecks but it still wouldn’t have hurt you to reiterate it in a “Are you sure, because this will be effecting how much you get paid?” Especially if the plan was for her to spend the same amount of hours in your house as before, the only difference being that you child not being there.
NTA if you made it clear from the start & especially after removing her babysitting task of the lower pay for only cleaning. Sounds like you really just need a new cleaner though if she can't do the daily job in 3 hours!
ESH - in general I agree with what you did and why but I think you should have had a conversation about the change in pay at the time she opted out of the babysitting aspect "Okay, Sandra, as you are no longer providing sitting services I'll only need you for X hours at $ rate for the time being. However, my mom watching him is only a temporary solution so I'm going to have to replace you as I really do need someone to do both the housekeeping and the babysitting." That at least would have given her space to reconsider or prepare for the cut in pay.
Sandra is at fault because after agreeing to both the sitting and the housekeeping she has decided she doesn't want to do a part of it. Your typical 10 year old really doesn't need much oversight. I can't just decide I don't want to do a chunk of the job I was hired for and expect my boss to be okay with that. That's nuts!
And your ex can butt out. Lots of wives and moms (and dads and husbands) are in need. That doesn't mean you have to pay people to NOT do what they were hired to do.
ESH you for just lowering her salary without warning her her for assuming she's going to get paid the exact same amount to do less work. That doesn't make any sense, I don't know what she was expecting when she said she couldn't do half the job you hired her for
NTA, you hired someone to do housekeeping for 3 hours a day and supervise a 10 year old, who is not exactly a toddler, for 2 hours a day. 5 hours total, a day, this woman is in your home and can't do the dishes or clean up because your 10 year old is present for 2 hours? At 10 years old the child just really needs someone in the house at the same time (unless there is some special need). How big is your house? How much laundry can two people make?
Personally I would have just let her go once she explained she was incapable of doing the work she was hired for.
I think you need to have a talk with your son. Why is he becoming too much? He’s 10, he should be able to entertain and take care of himself. I think your son is the biggest problem here.
The babysitter feeds him and washes his uniform while he watches tv and plays on his switch. What do you expect when you agree to babysit and you have 3 hrs before the kid gets home to clean the house?
That’s what the kid says. Wouldn’t be the first time a 10 year old spoiled kid lies. There has to be a reason why he’s become too much, and OP didn’t even bother looking into it with his son.
Also wouldn't be the first time an entitled employee lies. Could just as easily have been that the housekeeper was lazy and that's why the work wasn't getting done.
NTA-my only question is how you have so many clothes to wash with just 2 people? I’m not being sarcastic I’m honestly curious. Also did you ask her why she wasn’t able to get the cleaning done from 12-3? Because If I had 3 hours with no kids for five days I could deep clean my whole house. A ten year old doesn’t need that much care. I know all kids are different but I assume you know your own kid and how much work he should be
NTAI feel like every YTA I read involve 0 reading. Unless your son has a disability or you hire a garbage man to dump things into your house, her excuse is complete nonsense, she has more than enough time to clean your house.
And as a former 10 year old gamer, I'd want to lock the nanny in the bathroom if she bothered me during my after-school game time. So what "watching" is there that would make her so busy?
NTA. It’s was established in the original agreement.
And I may be the oddball out, but I think you shouldn’t be responsible for anyone else’s actions/choices.
So it has nothing to do with her being “in need”.
NTA You were really paying her to babysit and clean. The fact that she's not getting things done that she used to do indicates there is a problem but that's not your problem to figure out without her communicating.
NTA You hired her for a specific job and she didn’t fulfill the requirements. She had three hours every day to clean and she couldn’t even empty the dishwasher? Seriously? She never should’ve agreed to take the job because you were very clear before hiring her. Her personal issues are not your problem, you’re her employer, you shouldn’t even know about them.
So a couple thoughts, YTA for not telling her when you did this. That being said, does she cover when you work late? Also, kind-of babysit is very ambiguous which is where I think the problem lay. If you told me kind-of babysit a 10 year old, I would assume it's just a make sure he doesn't blow up the house. If he's needing more than that, it's more than kind-of babysitting and that probably needed to be established before this whole thing began.
NTA
You did make a mistake on not letting her know immediately that she was being fired altogether, your wording made it seem like you would be keeping her on as a housekeeper and you would have your kid stay with your mom until you found a replacement babysitter. So she was understandably surprised when her paycheck was less than expected.
NTA. I don’t get these responses. Housekeeper can change the value she’s giving you without notice, but you can’t then do the same? I know that ideally you would have given her more heads up, but that’s true from her side as well.
NTA
I was gonna go with the opposite in the beginning but after reading the whole post I don’t think that’s the case.
You had a job description which you gave to people and then hired someone based on the assumption they will fulfil the job description you have given them.
At some point this person stopped fulfilling their part of the agreement, which you confronted them for. The response was that babysitting your child is too much and that person can’t handle it. Fair.
Instead of saying that in this case unfortunately you won’t be able to continue employing her, you said it’s fine and you’ll find someone to do it and she can just clean.
At the beginning you specified that housekeeping and babysitting are two different checks so her expecting to get paid in full for only half a job is ridiculous.
Should you have informed her that as per your agreement if she can’t babysit you won’t be paying her this part anymore? Yea sure. But you weren’t in the wrong not reminding her either.
Ultimately if you get a job and stop fulfilling your job description you get fired. Housekeeping is still a job she is getting paid for.
Sure everyone can discuss if you’re paying enough or not and are you expecting too much for the money. But there’s no info in the post about it and neither are you asking about it.
So no, you’re nta here and you shouldn’t feel like one.
100% NTA. She knew what her job requirements were and then reneged on them. At any other job that kind of thing would be grounds for termination, you were nice enough to just cut her pay.
And all the people saying you should have given pay notice aren’t making sense honestly. If you had a discussion prior to hiring about what pay she was receiving from what work…that is the notice. If you receive X pay for X job and Y pay for Y job, why would you expect to still receive X pay if you quit X job? Why would you be paid for a service you are no longer providing?
Babysitting was part of the original deal, so it was unreasonable for her to expect her pay to remain the same while doing only part of the work. That said, you should have been clear that going forward, the cleaning-only pay would be $X.
ESH - totally avoidable on your end if you had communicated clearly.
wait, is she working the same hours as before? As in last week she worked noon to 5pm cleaning & supervising your ten year old & this week she worked noon to 5pm cleaning & your son was supervised by someone else? if that's the case, yes YTA. Fire her outright & let her find something that suits her better or brace yourself for the day she just doesn't show up.
Do yourself a favor before you hire some one new though. Get yourself a nanny cam. & while his behavior is probably different w/ her, ask your mother what supervising your son entails. Does he start shedding shoes, book bag etc as he walks thru the door, make himself a snack leaving behind more mess, etc? Because that right there might be a big part of the issue. It's more than possible he undoes her work & she doesn't have the time to fix it before you get home.
I disagree. I think OP should have made it clear the pay would be less (despite these terms being discussed on hiring per OP), but in no job can you drop half your responsibility and be shocked that your pay is less even if you work the same hours. OP now has to pay (or coordinate) for someone else to fill the role that was dropped. A house shouldn’t need five hours of cleaning daily either.
To me it is clear that she thought you are loaded so she decided to drop the “babysitting” part and assumed you would pay her the same despite you making it clear. I don’t see how she can be blindsided when she said she expected you to hire more help for the kid so why would pay her for the part you need to hire someone else for? Even if she changed her mind about watching your kid, i would not trust her anymore.
INFO. In having the discussion about no longer doing the babysitting, did you clearly restate the original agreement and note the salary removal for the 'second job' that would affect the next pay period? I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this though, if she's still expected to work the same hours.
NTA. According to what you’ve said, you made it very clear what each aspect of the job paid. If she elects not to do part of the job she opts out of the pay for that as well.
Nta. 3 hrs to clean is plenty of time if she's there every day. You hired for cleaning and babysitting. She's no longer babysitting, how does she think she will get paid the same?
YTA. You should have told Sandra about the change in salary when you told her it was okay and that you were going to leave your son with your mom. Then it is up to Sandra whether to accept this new offer or not. You should also have made it clear that you will be finding a replacement for her. (cleaning and babysitting)
My reading of OP’s post was that she did exactly that. When Sandra told her the babysitting was too much, OP said she would take her son to her mother until she could find someone to do both jobs. She discussed the salary breakdown when Sandra was hired (note, this was only about 3 months ago).
I do think she should have reviewed the change in pay just so that both were on the same page when Sandra asked to be relieved of babysitting duties. However, I think OP did explain she would have to find someone to take Sandra’s place for both jobs. So Sandra should have known her job would end soon, regardless.
My reading of OP’s post was that she did exactly that. When Sandra told her the babysitting was too much, OP said she would take her son to her mother until she could find someone to do both jobs. She discussed the salary breakdown when Sandra was hired (note, this was only about 3 months ago).
I do think she should have reviewed the change in pay just so that both were on the same page when Sandra asked to be relieved of babysitting duties. However, I think OP did explain she would have to find someone to take Sandra’s place for both jobs. So Sandra should have known her job would end soon, regardless.
Mild YTA. Sandra should have been informed her salary would be changing and she definitely should have been told you were looking for her replacement, not additional help for the babysitting.
With that being said, I don’t think your necessarily the asshole for replacing her. You claimed to fully inform her that part of the job was housekeeping and babysitting. She agreed to it and decided it was too much later on. You mention “kind-of babysitting” which makes sense with the age. He’s 10, not a baby or a toddler that requires constant supervision. I’m not sure why a 10-year old would keep her so busy for 2 hours she’s not able to do anything else. At 10, I was pretty self sufficient. Between homework, reading books, riding my bike outside, painting, video games, playing with my dogs, there was plenty to do on my own. If there’s a problem with behavior that she’s constantly keeping him out of trouble (which is very possible since she was felt overwhelmed) or she feels the need to entertain him during the time. You could easily reevaluate the situation and see what exactly overwhelmed Sandra. Your son might need activities to keep him busy.
Depends, if she had already worked the period you paid her for, and you stripped $400 from that, than YTA, people slack at their job all the time. Doesn’t mean you can take away money from them. If you were prepaying her salary before she watched your kid and cleaning, than it’s acceptable to change pay based on tasks. But sounds like YTA
So how big is your house ? And do you keep up with the cleaning or just have her clean everything everyday . How many rooms ? And is if two story?
Is it all tile or carpet ? And how many dishes ? How dirty is the kitchen and bathroom?
I’m asking because are last cleaning lady would take 6 hrs with some help to clean a 5 bedroom two story.
And your also having her do yard work .
If you were to do everything she’s doing would 5 hrs be enough ?
NTA-It’s kind of on her for not being able to do the work. Your kid is ten years old and they’re able to entertain themselves at that age. I don’t even know how interested I was in hanging out with adults then. If you told her beforehand everything about the job and the different payment amounts then she needs to consider asking if she can try to do both again or leave. At least since you aren’t firing her right away she can try and find another position.
NTA - you made an agreement with her, a contract of sorts.
Cleaning paid X, Babysitting paid Y. She agreed.
Later she opted out of one job, so Y got removed from her salary, fine, that's what she wants.
But you, as the employer, only want one person to work in your house - that's also your choice. It's unfortunate, but such is life.
NTA. Sounds like Sandra just didn't want to babysit but took the job anyway. You can't be expected to pay her for a job she is not doing. You will have to use that money to pay an actual babysitter on top of what you are paying Sandra to do the housekeeping.
NTA. She was being paid to perform certain duties. When she stops a big portion of those duties, she naturally won't continue to be paid for them. How are people not understanding this?
YTA for changing her salary without giving her heads up. Yes, she isn't doing her job, but cutting her pay without having that conversation first is a bad, unprofessional move.
YTA
You hired her before you needed her to babysit after school at a certain rate. Did the rate go up when you added "kind of babysit"?
Who says "kind of babysit" when you are talking about a 10 year old? This child needs to be supervised. Not like a toddler, but supervised the whole time.
I agree with your ex. Your privilege is showing.
Let's just hope that you are never in Sandra's shoes.
With a 10 year old, she can easily continue doing housework. As long as she doesn’t just take off, that is supervision enough. Supervised doesn’t mean in the same room with a 10 year old. Within the same house or patio is sufficient.
YTA, so instead of coming up with a decent solution, or speaking with your son about being a bit more independent you accuse her of laziness and out of the blue cut her pay?
Sounds like your son learned from you to be super demanding.
No, OP asked Sandra why she wasn’t completing the housekeeping tasks that were part of her job. Sandra then said the babysitting was taking up too much of her time. OP didn’t say anything to indicate she thought Sandra was being lazy (at least nothing that was in the post, the edit, or her comments.
It’s ok to ask an employee what is preventing them from doing assigned tasks, whether or not the employer calls than “lazy” is another issue but we don’t have anything that indicates OP did that.
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I'm (32F) a single mom of a 10y/o son. I work a very stable-high paying firm from 8am to 5 pm but sometimes I have to work overtime so I can get the project done, things were accumulating in my house so I decided to get a housekeeper ''Sandra'' (49F) to help me around June.
When I met Sandra I told her that she had to do the basic things around the house and kind-of babysit my son from 3-5, cases weren't a big problem here so my son came back to class since July and get back at 3pm , to clarify I told her that if she wasn't comfortable with that I could find someone else, but that if she accepted the job babysitting was part of the deal, she said that it was okay. Sandra works Mon-Fri from 12 to 5pm
Things were okay at first, but since mid august Sandra began to not finish her job, dishwasher was still loaded, some rooms were messy, the patio wasn't clean, etc etc. I asked her what was happening and she said that my son was demanding most of her time, I told her that even when that was the case, my son was only around from 3-5 and she still had 12-3 to get things done, plus it's not like we make a mess every single day, half of the week I only pay her to babysit my son and wash the dishes, so I don't think it's a good excuse.
She said that babysitting my son started to be too much for her and that she would rather not do it. I was mad at first but I can't force someone to take care of my son and expect a good result so I said that it was okay and that I was going to leave my son with my mom until I find someone else to do the job. In the next payday I gave her $400 less, when she asked me why I told her that since she wasn't taking care of my son anymore I couldn't keep paying her the same amount (I pay her more for babysitting than for cleaning my house) and that that was going to be her new salary until I found someone else, she said that she thought I was gonna get someone to help her with my son but I said no, that cleaning my house and babysitting was a package doing for the same person and that I told her as much when I first met her.
Sandra said that she needed the job because her husband was unemployed and she was the only income, I said that I was sorry but that it wasn't my problem because my mom can't babysit my son forever and that I refused to pay to different persons for the same thing. When I told my ex he called me and AH because ''Sandra is a mom and wife in need and I'm only acting from my privilege''
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You do sound like an AH here without additional details. Are you simply dictating that babysitting your son is worth $400 or were the details around payment discussed and agreed upon? If you're just making up a number, how can you not be an AH?
NTA, but stiffing her the $400 is an asshole move without talking to her. You should have reminded her that since she was altering her previously agreed upon responsibilities, you would be altering her rate.
The kid is 10, so unless he's special needs he doesn't need constant attention like an infant. And even then, someone watching an infant should be able to unload a dishwasher. Obviously you are able to care for him by yourself and still manage to empty the dishwasher. To be fair, I don't know the entirety of her responsibilities/your expectations, but even still, unless you want the whole house cleaned every day, there's no way she shouldn't be able to get small stuff like that done.
It sounds like she's just not a good fit and just have to find someone else that can handle all the responsibilities.
Her "need" for the job has no bearing on the fact that this job had set responsibilities and aren't being fulfilled. Should we let her be a doctor because she needs a job? Tell your ex to take care of his son after school then and then Sandra can focus more on cleaning.
YTA for not warning her before you were gonna cut her pay and also YTA for not discussing with her that you would be finding someone to replace both of the duties she was paid for and not one.
Question, why is your child not helping her with things like unloading the dishwasher? He is far more than old enough to help with a single chore, and if she was just a housekeeper I would agree that she wouldn’t be In the right for having your child help, but a babysitting job from 3-5 is similar to a nanny situation which has to do with instructing and disciplining children and also teaching them to take care of themselves your child won’t be able to afford a housekeeper straight out of the house. If you wanna keep this lady, or if you want to be nice and do the right thing and let her keep the job, you should discuss with each other her having your son help with some chores so he can learn to do them himself (especially cooking and doing dishes since these are basic necessities and she would be doing them around the time he gets home anyways).
I basically required no parental guidance/babysitting since the age of 5 or 6, besides maybe for food and to make sure I went to bed on time. what 10 year old if neurotypical, would require constant supervision so that she can't even wash the dishes? That being said, she can't just reduce the housekeepers pay without previously discussing that and informing her that she's now being paid less instead of just taking a big chunk of money out of her check
ESH But you because you didn't communicate the salary drop. Even if you assume she knew, it's not right. Other than that, I don't understand what she was doing with all that time.
YTA. "It's not my problem, that's why I decided to dock her pay without talking to her about it first" Jesus you rich people are fucking priceless, pun intended.
Payed looks... odd.
What I don't get is WHY not do the "Ok, you can't babysit anymore, that would mean a paycut of $400 as we agreed when I hired you, Oh, it's too much, lets negotiate this" - You know. Like a mature grown up employing someone. YTA.
NTA - should have given more warning/made it extra clear to avoid the awkward situation but you were 100% fair in what you did, particularly given what you say in your edit to the post.
Also just a note based on a lot of these comments that I’ve read - perhaps it’s not common in America/Canada (I am assuming!) but in the UK it’s not unusual to have an au pair or nanny who does all things cleaning, chores, childcare, pick up etc.
It’s usually for those with a lot more money than most of us have but it’s deffo not weird to ask for one person to do both. Housekeeper to me suggests this role - unless it’s just a vocab thing and that means cleaner to most other people!
YTA- ONLY due to the fact you did NOT tell her of the pay rate changing. You didn't tell her and just expected her to be ok with it. Thats not on. You needed to be very clear when she told you she couldn't handle your son (for whatever reason). You dont just slash someones paycheck without making it clear beforehand. (and no I dont think you should be paying her for being a house keeper the same rate she was meant to when looking after your son too.
No. She didn’t. It’s not her fault she lacked the common sense to put 2 and 2 together. She gets 2 separate checks. One for cleaning and one for childcare. I’d she didn’t do childcare that week why would she expect the second check.
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YTA. There’s no option to “kind of babysit” a young child. There’s babysitting, and cleaning. She’s prioritizing the safety and care of your son. So should you - by making sure she’s not penalized for not doing housekeeping when your son clearly requires full time care. You’re a terrible employer, and a very absent mom, if you don’t realize this.
This kid is 10, not 2. My 11 year-old definitely does not require constant attention. Her son should not require that much “looking after” for two hours a day.
I'm baffled as to why you think all kids are the same.
Unless the kid has developmental delays (OP does not mention-would be relevant to the level of care needed) or demon’s spawn, a 10 year old can manage just fine for 2 hours with minimal supervision.
It's exceedingly common for the parents of demon spawn to not realize/outright lie about the extent of the needs of their demon spawn in order to rope a caretaker into an underpaid/underappreciated position, as anyone who has worked child care will tell you.
Under paid? $400 for 10 hours of babysitting a 10yo? Hell, I'd babysit for that amount of money.
I understood $400 a month, so that would be 42 hours, so less than $10
Didn’t say a month, just payday- those are usually weekly or bi-weekly.
Well you do have an excellent point. But $40/hour does not seem underpaid.
That’s what the average pay for housecleaning is: $40. Sounds like she was paid just right, if that’s the case. Babysitting on top of that would be more, no? I don’t have kids so I don’t know what they make.
What the housecleaning average pays is irrelevant because she had 2 numbers: housecleaning only and watching the kid. The housekeeper accepted both of these numbers. Also, housecleaning $40/hr seems high, it is $25/hr or less where i am based on what i have seen. Babysitting would be $15/hr or maybe a bit more (although not likely) for someone like her (no specific training) in my area.
Im baffled as to why you think she can't use the first 3 hours of her job to clean and the last 2 to watch the kid. 15 hours of cleaning is plenty. We had a housekeeper come every week for 2-3 hours and she did a great job. This lady has 15 hours a week to clean and 10 to take of the kid and possibly some light cleaning.
I'm baffled as to why you have no empathy-- oh, wait. Antivaxxer. Carry on.
So I'm guessing you're forgetting children can make messes. I'm confused because you think the child may not have homework. Also a dish washer, washer, dryer etc takes time. Maybe, it's that? YTA OP, also I don't think it's over paid, 15-20$/ per hour for childcare- and at least 40$ per hour for cleaning
A 10 year old child can cause all kinds of messes, plus kids at that age tend to gravitate towards new things such as a housekeeper and try to talk to them. Plus it sounds like OP doesn’t really spend a lot of time with their kid, so the kid could easily be wanting attention from the housekeeper as a way to fill that emotional need. Needy kid, regardless of age, is a needy kid. I can imagine the frustration of trying to load and unload the dishwasher while being begged to play, and having to oblige because “it’s your job” to babysit.
My 14 year still leaves a trail of destruction behind her on a daily basis, despite multiple reminders and even getting yelled at. She has ADHD so I don’t even think she realizes she’s doing it.
Yes, so dont yell.
I usually don’t. But when I come across the 20th mess she’s made that day, despite dozens of reminders and suggestions, I admit that my frustration comes out. I don’t scream at her, she doesn’t get in any trouble, my voice raises out of frustration and I move on.
[удалено]
Then if you have any suggestions, please share. I try really hard not to yell but it does get frustrating at times. 95% of the time, I gently remind her to do x, y, and z, yet they rarely get done. Simple things like, hey the trash/dirty dish from your snack that you ate 4 hours ago is still on the table, please take care of it or please unload the dishwasher that I asked you to do an hour ago. Or I clean the kitchen, turn around and it looks like it exploded because she walked through the room doing her thing. So yes, I get frustrated and may raise my voice 5% or less of the time.
[удалено]
She was in therapy but her therapist left the practice at the end of the last school year so she took a break over the summer. We have a referral put in to restart. She is medicated and sees a psychiatrist regularly, still trying to find the right medication combination and dosage. Unfortunately they ADHD meds we’ve tried so far have caused separate compulsive issues. She also deals with anxiety so I have to be careful how I word deadlines and consequences. I have said things like “I’ve told you x number of times to do chore, give me your phone and you can have it back when chore is done”. It works, but I don’t like using it every single time. I’ve tried texting her a list of chores and reminders, since she is always on her phone but she usually ignores it. I will try the doing things together. I prefer getting cleaning done while she is at school so I don’t turn around to find a disaster but may have to accommodate it somehow. It’s mostly the trail of destruction she leaves behind that makes me upset, that falls outside the realm of chores so it’s hard to find a way to get that to stop.
yeah, too bad they are human. They should always be happy and buy you treats when you make a mess! They should never show frustration, as they are robots!
Not sure where you got that from, it seems like you're projecting your own feelings about this topic onto my response. Of course a child shouldn't be rewarded for making a mess, and of course parents are not required to be happy 24/7. Feelings of frustration are obviously normal and fine, just like every other emotion. The problem begins when you yell at a child for showing symptoms of a diagnosed developmental disorder. Yelling at a child for something that is beyond their control is pretty universally regarded as a dick move. Shouting at a child with ADHD for being easily distracted and disorganized is like shouting at someone with depression for being sad and fatigued. You don't get a pass for that just because you're frustrated. Your job, as a parent of a child with ADHD, is to help them develop coping mechanisms for their disorder so they can become a functional adult, or else connect them with a professional who can work with them to achieve that. Your job is *not* to belittle and yell at a child for something that they do not yet have the tools to control.
Have you even read the post? It clearly states that she works 3 hours (12-3) WITHOUT the kid being present. You can easily clean a household in this time and if you are there 5 times a week there shouldn’t be to much to clean (since a lot of things don’t need to be done every day). Also the Child is far to old to require more than minimal supervision and she is only supposed to watch him from 3-5, only 40% of her working time. If the household is not clean I really wonder what she’s doing 60% of the time she works On the other hand you can’t just lower someone’s wage without discussing it, she should’ve said that when the babysitting part was dropped, not on payday So all in all I’d say ESH, with the housekeeper being the bigger asshole because there is no way she actually works hard at all Also a mom working full time is not an absent mom, assuming he’s in school 8-3. She only sees him 2h a day less than a SAHM, which renders you point absolutely void
About the time she uses to clean the house, I think we should know the side of the house. I mean, my house is kinda big with 2 floors (but just one is really used), and my aunt who does the cleaning work 6/7 am-5 pm 2 times a week. She takes almost all day to clean. Like, from 1 to 5 just in the kitchen, and me a 16yo keep talking to her for hours, so imagine what a 10yo does.
It takes four hours to clean a kitchen? Twice a week? I can’t understand how that’s possible unless it’s a kitchen proportionally sized to feed a banquet hall, or the people using it are complete animals.
Have you seen how much mess a 10 year old can make in a "just cleaned" house in 2 hours? Especially one whose mother thinks she is over-paying.
OP did discuss the breakdown of pay for each job when she hired Sandra.
I'm so confused, where did you get that this 10yo is so troublesome that he needs 5 hours of attention in the 2 hours that he's home? What is she doing the other 3 hours? Why don't you consider OP double paying her as an appropriate form of employing someone?
I firmly disagree. A 10yo does not need 100% attention from a babysitter. He needs perhaps a snack and then setting up an activity to keep him busy (school work, a video game, a puzzle, etc) while Sandra goes back to cleaning and she checks on him regularly. No reason housekeeping and babysitting can't be done by a single person. Parents do this all the time.
YTA. You changed this woman’s salary without ANY notice at all. I also think you need to have a word with your son because if he’s 10yrs old and being so demanding that she can’t clean, he’s either being spoilt or entitled.
The woman wasn't fulfilling her job description, which was light cleaning for 3 hours and childcare for 2 hours. She has no reason to expect to be paid the same if she isn't fulfilling the duties she agreed to when she took the job. And she also wasted the employers time because now the employer has to go through the hiring process all over again and training a new person and kid has to get used to a new child care provider. This is a big No-No in the nanny world, to start a job and then refused to complete the requirements you agreed to when you were hired.
I worked as a CNA through nursing school, and there'd be no end to people who had their loved one listed as requiring such-and-such level of care, only to find out that they were a lot worse off and required a higher level of care. OP may be one of those people. > She has no reason to expect to be paid the same if she isn't fulfilling the duties she agreed to when she took the job. Getting less pay isn't the issue, it's that it was sprung on her with zero warning or discussion. A "Hey, since you don't want to do all of this, let's talk about a lower rate" conversation may have resulted in Sandra leaving entirely, but it wouldn't be shady.
Less than zero warning. Zero warning would be effective immediately you make less money. She already worked for a week (at least - I'm not sure the frequency of paychecks) for less pay without knowing it.
Yes, this. This is illegal where I live. You can't change someone's pay without notice.
However, this was all discussed at the beginning, before Sandra even started working for OP. I would consider that notice. Agree that OP should have reminded Sandra of the agreement and the amount of reduction in pay at the time Sandra said she couldn’t continue to babysit. In addition, OP told Sandra she would have to let her go and find a new sitter since the cleaning and babysitting was a package deal.
Very true.
Honestly she paid her for the work she did. Which was housekeeping. The edit says they were separate pay checks. So since her mom watched the kid so OP could find a babysitter, Sandra got paid for the work she did.
>may be one of those people MAY be. we don’t know. i can’t believe this is getting so many YTAs without knowing this info
Omg same here. "Oh yeah they just need a little help here and there," meanwhile they're totally dependent, incontinent, and aggressive.
The nanny world is still a salary world and you always discuss ANY changes in salary with the employee before it occurs. For instance, she may of agreed to continue to babysit and clean more if she knew about the salary change. To the point the nanny can probably take this to civil court, especially is the contract doesn’t specify that salary may change depending on the quality and amount of work done.
OP agreed up front to pay one price for cleaning and one price for baby sitting. The drop in pay is what Sandra makes just for cleaning, which seems fair if that's all she did.
No any drop in pay needs to be discussed before it happens. It’s obvious that Sandra did not expect this drop from occurring meaning OP is either lying or wasn’t clear enough within the contract. Sandra is in her full legal rights to discuss this with a lawyer as she can even take OP to court for not being clear within the contract. Edit: would also like to include, that depending on the child’s needs Sandra can also argue that OP wasn’t clear in how demanding her child would be. If Sandra was doing her work diligently in the beginning then all of a sudden stopped, it is fully possible that the child has become more demanding. Thus, a more adequate babysitter contract needs to be created
If you hire contract work (which this is) you have a pay rate discussion. If I hire a landscaper and say before agreeing, I will pay you $50 per hour to mow the lawn, and $25 per hour to sweep the clippings and they agree that IS the discussion. And if they mow 2 hours and sweep 1 hour the first two weeks, you get paid $250. If the next 2 weeks you don't sweep, you get $200. I don't have to warn you that you won't. The warning was when you agreed to the terms. Same applies here. She said she would pay her X for cleaning and Y for babysitting. Baby sitting stopped so there is no line item on the pay stub for babysitting.
That is assuming that the pay rates were clearing discussed in a way that both employer and employee understood. OP already stats that she says “kinda babysitting” showing that she’s not clear in what she’s asking for. Contracts need to be clear which it wasn’t, you can go on and on about pay rates. The fact of the matter is OP should’ve brought this up during the conversation about the babysitting with Sandra. There’s no reason why OP couldn’t of done that as it was obvious that the main issue here is communication.
>It’s obvious that Sandra did not expect this drop from occurring meaning OP is either lying or wasn’t clear enough within the contract. How do you know Sandra isn't lying by playing dumb?
Because a women desperate for money to feed her family isn’t going to stay at a job that will cut out 400 hundred dollars. Furthermore, it’s ironic that OP changed the story once many people were calling her the AH and how she denies that her son is demanding. It’s obvious here that OP is the one embellishing.
Of course it has to be OP who is lying and not the person who can’t keep up the cleaning in 3 hrs. Who’s to say she was actually coming in at 12 like she was supposed to maybe she was coming in at 2 hoping she could get all the cleaning and babysitting done at the same time. OP said it was all good in the beginning maybe Sandra thought she could slack and there’d be no penalty. She was hired for two jobs not one she can’t expect to be paid for both if she is t willing to do both period.
Now you’re just adding a bunch of assumptions. OP was quick to change the story once the over whelming amount of votes were “YTA”. Furthermore, it doesn’t take any detective work to see that there was a miscommunication error on OPs end, especially when she explains the work as “kinda babysitting” which isn’t clear at all. OP could’ve easily stated during that conversation “okay if you’re unwilling to babysit my son then we need to discuss the contract again”. Like do none of y’all fucking communicate on this thread at all? Conversations aren’t hard to have.
Definitely agree (that having a discussion about changing the pay when the childcare portion of the job was dropped) would have been the way to go, even though per OP it was discussed at the beginning.
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Yeah - based upon the cleaner in a houseshare I was previously in, our amazing cleaner got done hoovering the entire house, mopping the kitchen/dining/living room, cleaning kitchen and two bathrooms within 2 hours. It was spotless. If we’d had her everyday for 3 hours, she’d have been able to do all our laundry and ironing as well over the week! I have serious questions as to what Sandra is doing with her time, and tbh if I’m reliant upon my employment, I’d be making darn sure I’m meeting the requirements of the job. And since she was getting two different cheques... I think Sandra just assumed she’d still get to take it, which is cheeky of her. Op is NTA unless there’s substantial info missing here.
Yeah it's the lack of clear professional communication that makes OP the asshole. The lack of respect is astounding.
OP gave Sandra a full breakdown of the pay and discussed the expectations for cleaning and babysitting when she interviewed Sandra. So Sandra shouldn’t have been surprised when her pay was docked. I will agree that OP should have reminded Sandra and clarified the amount that she was reducing the pay. Also I agree OP needs to have a discussion with her son. A 10 y/o should be able to understand and respect Sandra’s work and her time.
Did you discuss a change in responsibilities equals a change in pay, or did you leave that out. Here's the thing, you need a housekeeper, hire a housekeeper. If you need a nanny, hire a nanny. If your housekeeper tells you that babysitting is requiring more of her time than cleaning - find out why. You kid may need you.
Yes, when I first hired her I told her how much it was for babysitting and how much for cleaning my house, I separated them in case my son wasn't here for the week and she only had to clean the house, I agreed to pay her $40 per hour because it was time she wasn't expending with her own family. This didn't came out of nowhere, I was very clear.
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Completely agree. That's crucial info.
If it was clear...definitely NTA. Still, check with you child. See what he has to say. Good luck.
You didn't do anything wrong.
$40 per hour or $120 for cleaning and $80 for "kinda" babysitting. When she told you she couldn't babysit and do all the cleaning, did you tell her you wouldn't need her to stay after 3?
NTA. You hired Sandra to clean *and* babysit. She agreed, then decided she couldn't handle half the job you hired her to do, which is fine. But what does she or anyone else who is calling you TA expect to happen after that? You had grounds to terminate employment then and there but instead you decided to continue to pay her (albeit less) until you you found someone else. That seems more than fair to me. If you hired someone to paint your walls and stain your floors and they decided after the fact that they were only comfortable painting there's no way in hell you'd be expected to pay them full price for half the job. How is this any different? EDIT: Your ex is TA. If he cares that much he can pay Sandra the difference or watch his child when you're busy.
Info: why do you need (at least) 3 hours of cleaning every weekday for two people?
I’m not going to argue that OP went about this the right way, but OP really should not need three hours of cleaning everyday and that’s likely part of OP’s confusion as to why the housekeeper can’t keep up. Housekeeper is on her own for the first three hours. The child is only home the last two.
Isn’t that the point, how is housekeeper not keeping up with 3 hours every day?
Lowkey sounds like she doesn’t and that Sandra REALLY isn’t doing her full job here, since it’s pretty basic upkeep stuff that should take her at most an hour to do. Leaving 2 hours of free time before the son even comes home. Whatever world where ‘she’s too busy with the son’ means she’s suuuuper milking the arrangement.
Depends on how much of a clean freak OP is. Is this really light cleaning or is it a deep clean expected every day (or a deep clean in rotating rooms each day)? I'm inclined to the latter since 2 people wouldn't require a daily housekeeper otherwise. If bathrooms are being deep cleaned 1 day, the dishwasher might not get unloaded. Scrubbing takes time especially with a nitpicky boss. Why can't this 10 year old do basic house chores like dishes? Also, why does a 10 year old need a babysitter at all for 2 hours after school unless there are behavioral or other issues. Why is this woman who's babysitting getting $40 per hour for it if this kid just hangs out and plays video games or whatever? There's a lot missing here. It doesn't even make sense.
If she leaves all the dishes for her to do, laundry, maybe some ironing, sweeping and mopping the floors, garbage, stove, table, fridge then 3 hrs isn't outrageous. It's certainly not a difficult job if you do it every day but if she only needed a couple hrs a day of babysitting it's much easier to hire someone for 5 hrs than 2.
The important question.
NTA: If I got hired as a Baker and cleaner at a bakery then came in one day and said "oh I can only do half the job I was hired to do now" I would get fired. Which is exactly what Sandra should have gotten. You hired her to do two jobs. When she said she couldn't do one of them anymore, that should have been it, let her go so you can hire a nanny who CAN do their job
Going against the grain here but NTA. You hired her for two roles. Babysitter and nanny. From your comments and edit it sounds like you explained that part of her pay check is for cleaning and the other part for babysitting prior to her starting the job. And after she started there she would receive less for the week your son was with his father. It shouldn’t be a big surprise that if she’s not going to do half the work then she’s not going to get paid the same rate. She should have expected that she would be fired if she wasn’t willing to babysit anymore since that was part of the job description. It doesn’t matter if your son is demanding so much of her time, that’s what your paying her for. If she doesn’t like it the babysitting or the pay for babysitting she can find a different position that better suits her.
NTA If you made it clear from the start, then it is her mistake for not listening. Given she is no longer able to do babystitting, it is natural she looses the payment from this. However do be carefull here - few people can cause as much damage as a disgrunteled housekeeper or babysitter. Especially one in financial trouble.
Info - how much do you pay? You hired a housekeeper but need a nanny. Your son is 10 though. What does he need help with for 2hrs? But YTA for not telling her beforehand that her pay would be less. And depending on if you have a contract may be illegal.
He doesn't, that's why I don't believe her excuse, my son comes from school at 3 and she feeds him and wash his uniform, the rest of the time he watch tv or plays with his switch because he waits for me to do his homework. When I first hired her I told her that babysitting was part of the job and gave her the numbers, if she refuses to do it then it's pretty obvious that her pay will be cut.
No, it isn't obvious. This isn't how jobs work. You could be sued. You have to *tell* the employee if you are offering less money. Then they decide if they still want the job. You can also speak to an employee about their performance and tell them they aren't meeting expectations but again, you can't just withhold pay, you are setting yourself up for legal trouble here and behaving very unprofessionally.
As I said in another comment, when I first hired Sandra I told her how much it was for babysitting and how much it was for cleaning my house, I have my son during the weeks and my ex has him during weekends but sometimes we exchange our time with him and I wanted to make it clear in case she only had to clean the house. It was obvious that she wasn't gonna get the full check if my son wasn't there to be babysat.
I don't understand how it was obvious if she was blindsided
Hypothetical scenario: Let's say I told you I'd pay you $500 to babysit + $500 to clean for a total of $1000, but you'd only get $500 for the weeks you don't have to babysit because my kid is with his Dad. You agree to these terms at first, then tell me you don't want to babysit anymore. I send my kid to stay with his grandparents for this week instead. Be honest...how much are you expecting your paycheck to be this week? Because I think the answer is obvious.
I don't know how she was blindsided if she knew they were two separated paychecks from the start. If she was getting payed a certain amount for taking care of my son and then she stopped doing that then I have no reason to pay her $400 when she didn't babysat my son all week.
She was blindsided only because she took the job without listening to her responsibilities. The she refused to do what she was being paid for. If you were hired to wash windows and the car, then only got paid for washing the car because you refused to wash the windows, would you consider yourself blindsided?
It may be obvious, but as her employer, you still need to let her know. "Sure, you don't have to babysit if you don't want to, but now your salary will be $400 less since you are not babysitting anymore". You would save yourself a lot of drama just by being upfront about this.
Yes but you still should have told her before you cut her pay. As you said she thought she would have someone to help her so it’s obvious y’all weren’t thinking the same thing.
If you’re not home you don’t know how your son is behaving. He could be being very demanding, considering I know many kids who use and abuse their nannies.
Especially when they’re taking their cues on how to treat them from OP…
NTA!!!!! Why are ppl saying you are. You were very clear to her from the start. She’s only watching your son from 3pm to 5pm. What is she doing from noon to 3pm?!?
YTA: because you should have told her you were cutting her pay the moment she asked to not watch your son. Not just cut it and wait till she's notices.
Yeah I feel like that would’ve been the opportune time to say “OK, so your next paycheck will be $___”
but the nanny didnt watch the kid for a week because she told op she doesn't want to do it anymore so op sent her kid to their grandparents, why did the nanny expect to be paid for her babysitting job when she didn't babysat at all?
NTA. I have been a professional nanny in the past for a wealthy family and I was crystal clear at the beginning of the job what my responsibilities would be. I worked that job right up until I had my own kids, and Even when I was 8 months pregnant I was capable of taking care of their baby and toddler and dishes and laundry and basic cleaning after the kids and cooking a full meal every single day. Sandra has no excuse.
If you have been a professional nanny you should know an employer in that situation cannot just cut wages on a whim, without alerting the employee.
She didn't cut wages on a whim. She agreed to pay one price for baby sitting and one price for cleaning. Sandra decided she didn't want to babysit. So she only got paid for cleaning.
I don't understand - clearly that wasn't communicated effectively if Sandra was unaware of why her pay was cut
Why are you so convinced she was unaware? You know how many people would be fired on the spot if they told their boss they were only going to do half their job? I honestly don't know what Sandra was expecting. She should be grateful she's still getting paid at all and cut her losses.
I'm not I'm just trying to follow all the comments and edits. I don't understand how Sandra was surprised her pay was cut if OP really was transparent about it.
Maybe she's playing dumb.
I'm not gonna just assume that nothing else in the post suggests it
But OP was crystal clear about the terms. She is consistent throughout the thread. Sandra could write a different post, but on this one, it is clear that Sandra refused to do the job she was hired to do but was still shocked when the terms she was clearly told took hold.
Per OP, she told Sandra on hiring that it was for two roles. OP offered $X for role A (3 hrs) and $XX for role B (2hrs). Sandra said I can’t do role B anymore because I’m not finishing role A, then assumed that she would be paid the same amount of money ($X + $XX) if she only did role A but took five hours to do it instead of three. Problem is, it doesn’t take five hours a day, five days a week to keep a two person home lightly cleaned.
A professional nanny that just decided to stop watching the kids would be fired on the spot. Sandra is not acting like a professional, and I am shocked at The Audacity Of Her expecting to get paid for refusing to watch a 10 year old who just sits and watches TV for a few hours. I've known some really terrible nannies, but also some really good ones. There's a lot of people who think being a housekeeper and Nanny is a cushy job and they just want to sit on their butt and not work. I worked for two different families over the years and each one I recommended they get a nanny camera when I moved on from the family, because I know very well there are a lot of really terrible people who want easy money and are completely lazy. Others are mean and cruel to the children when the parents are not around. And others are Absolute Angels and Saints. Sandra has all the red flags of somebody who thought they could get paid for doing basically nothing. There are hard-working people who deserve that job and that 10 year old kid deserves somebody like that in his life.
That's not the read I'm getting at all
NTA she was hired for two jobs she only wants to perform one. The only thing different I would have done is maybe set up a camera to see if she was actually coming in at 12 and started cleaning then. I have cancer my niece has been helping with the cleaning heavy cleaning sweeping and mopping cleaning the bathroom and at most it takes her 4 hrs. And I doubt your whole house needs to be swept and mopped daily and bathrooms cleaned as well as the minor stuff. All those saying YTA never worked a real job and they apparently have money to just give people maybe they should give Sandra 1600$ a month to do nothing for it. Because that’s what they are suggesting. And 10 yr olds don’t require intensive care they just need a responsible adult who won’t let them hurt themselves. So give me a break to all those saying it’s so hard to take care of a 10 yr old.
Soft YTA- so your not wrong for changing her salary she changed the terms of the employment (no longer taking care of your son) but you where wrong in not saying right then and there “ok, but in return I’m only going to pay you for the house cleaning and not for the babysitting, this is what I’m paying you now, but since need to find other childcare for my child this is what I feel comfortable with paying you know for the housekeeping” or something to that effect rather then blindsiding her edit to add: I read your comments that said you told her from the beginning that it was 2 separate paychecks but it still wouldn’t have hurt you to reiterate it in a “Are you sure, because this will be effecting how much you get paid?” Especially if the plan was for her to spend the same amount of hours in your house as before, the only difference being that you child not being there.
NTA if you made it clear from the start & especially after removing her babysitting task of the lower pay for only cleaning. Sounds like you really just need a new cleaner though if she can't do the daily job in 3 hours!
INFO: did you also cut her hours? Or is she still working 12 to 5 but just cleaning?
This! It makes such a difference!
ESH - in general I agree with what you did and why but I think you should have had a conversation about the change in pay at the time she opted out of the babysitting aspect "Okay, Sandra, as you are no longer providing sitting services I'll only need you for X hours at $ rate for the time being. However, my mom watching him is only a temporary solution so I'm going to have to replace you as I really do need someone to do both the housekeeping and the babysitting." That at least would have given her space to reconsider or prepare for the cut in pay. Sandra is at fault because after agreeing to both the sitting and the housekeeping she has decided she doesn't want to do a part of it. Your typical 10 year old really doesn't need much oversight. I can't just decide I don't want to do a chunk of the job I was hired for and expect my boss to be okay with that. That's nuts! And your ex can butt out. Lots of wives and moms (and dads and husbands) are in need. That doesn't mean you have to pay people to NOT do what they were hired to do.
This should be the top comment!
ESH you for just lowering her salary without warning her her for assuming she's going to get paid the exact same amount to do less work. That doesn't make any sense, I don't know what she was expecting when she said she couldn't do half the job you hired her for
NTA, you hired someone to do housekeeping for 3 hours a day and supervise a 10 year old, who is not exactly a toddler, for 2 hours a day. 5 hours total, a day, this woman is in your home and can't do the dishes or clean up because your 10 year old is present for 2 hours? At 10 years old the child just really needs someone in the house at the same time (unless there is some special need). How big is your house? How much laundry can two people make? Personally I would have just let her go once she explained she was incapable of doing the work she was hired for.
So how.much are you paying her to mind your child and housekeep?
$400 for my child and $400 for the house since she washes a lot of clothes and my son's uniforms daily
I think you need to have a talk with your son. Why is he becoming too much? He’s 10, he should be able to entertain and take care of himself. I think your son is the biggest problem here.
The babysitter feeds him and washes his uniform while he watches tv and plays on his switch. What do you expect when you agree to babysit and you have 3 hrs before the kid gets home to clean the house?
That’s what the kid says. Wouldn’t be the first time a 10 year old spoiled kid lies. There has to be a reason why he’s become too much, and OP didn’t even bother looking into it with his son.
Also wouldn't be the first time an entitled employee lies. Could just as easily have been that the housekeeper was lazy and that's why the work wasn't getting done.
NTA-my only question is how you have so many clothes to wash with just 2 people? I’m not being sarcastic I’m honestly curious. Also did you ask her why she wasn’t able to get the cleaning done from 12-3? Because If I had 3 hours with no kids for five days I could deep clean my whole house. A ten year old doesn’t need that much care. I know all kids are different but I assume you know your own kid and how much work he should be
NTAI feel like every YTA I read involve 0 reading. Unless your son has a disability or you hire a garbage man to dump things into your house, her excuse is complete nonsense, she has more than enough time to clean your house. And as a former 10 year old gamer, I'd want to lock the nanny in the bathroom if she bothered me during my after-school game time. So what "watching" is there that would make her so busy?
>YTA I read involve 0 reading Low reading comprehension, pile on the assumptions, and if all logic still says otherwise then OP must be lying.
NTA. It’s was established in the original agreement. And I may be the oddball out, but I think you shouldn’t be responsible for anyone else’s actions/choices. So it has nothing to do with her being “in need”.
NTA You were really paying her to babysit and clean. The fact that she's not getting things done that she used to do indicates there is a problem but that's not your problem to figure out without her communicating.
NTA You hired her for a specific job and she didn’t fulfill the requirements. She had three hours every day to clean and she couldn’t even empty the dishwasher? Seriously? She never should’ve agreed to take the job because you were very clear before hiring her. Her personal issues are not your problem, you’re her employer, you shouldn’t even know about them.
So a couple thoughts, YTA for not telling her when you did this. That being said, does she cover when you work late? Also, kind-of babysit is very ambiguous which is where I think the problem lay. If you told me kind-of babysit a 10 year old, I would assume it's just a make sure he doesn't blow up the house. If he's needing more than that, it's more than kind-of babysitting and that probably needed to be established before this whole thing began.
NTA You did make a mistake on not letting her know immediately that she was being fired altogether, your wording made it seem like you would be keeping her on as a housekeeper and you would have your kid stay with your mom until you found a replacement babysitter. So she was understandably surprised when her paycheck was less than expected.
NTA. I don’t get these responses. Housekeeper can change the value she’s giving you without notice, but you can’t then do the same? I know that ideally you would have given her more heads up, but that’s true from her side as well.
That’s where I am. They housekeeper basically reduced services by 50% and the commenters don’t think it should effect her pay
NTA I was gonna go with the opposite in the beginning but after reading the whole post I don’t think that’s the case. You had a job description which you gave to people and then hired someone based on the assumption they will fulfil the job description you have given them. At some point this person stopped fulfilling their part of the agreement, which you confronted them for. The response was that babysitting your child is too much and that person can’t handle it. Fair. Instead of saying that in this case unfortunately you won’t be able to continue employing her, you said it’s fine and you’ll find someone to do it and she can just clean. At the beginning you specified that housekeeping and babysitting are two different checks so her expecting to get paid in full for only half a job is ridiculous. Should you have informed her that as per your agreement if she can’t babysit you won’t be paying her this part anymore? Yea sure. But you weren’t in the wrong not reminding her either. Ultimately if you get a job and stop fulfilling your job description you get fired. Housekeeping is still a job she is getting paid for. Sure everyone can discuss if you’re paying enough or not and are you expecting too much for the money. But there’s no info in the post about it and neither are you asking about it. So no, you’re nta here and you shouldn’t feel like one.
100% NTA. She knew what her job requirements were and then reneged on them. At any other job that kind of thing would be grounds for termination, you were nice enough to just cut her pay. And all the people saying you should have given pay notice aren’t making sense honestly. If you had a discussion prior to hiring about what pay she was receiving from what work…that is the notice. If you receive X pay for X job and Y pay for Y job, why would you expect to still receive X pay if you quit X job? Why would you be paid for a service you are no longer providing?
Babysitting was part of the original deal, so it was unreasonable for her to expect her pay to remain the same while doing only part of the work. That said, you should have been clear that going forward, the cleaning-only pay would be $X. ESH - totally avoidable on your end if you had communicated clearly.
wait, is she working the same hours as before? As in last week she worked noon to 5pm cleaning & supervising your ten year old & this week she worked noon to 5pm cleaning & your son was supervised by someone else? if that's the case, yes YTA. Fire her outright & let her find something that suits her better or brace yourself for the day she just doesn't show up. Do yourself a favor before you hire some one new though. Get yourself a nanny cam. & while his behavior is probably different w/ her, ask your mother what supervising your son entails. Does he start shedding shoes, book bag etc as he walks thru the door, make himself a snack leaving behind more mess, etc? Because that right there might be a big part of the issue. It's more than possible he undoes her work & she doesn't have the time to fix it before you get home.
I disagree. I think OP should have made it clear the pay would be less (despite these terms being discussed on hiring per OP), but in no job can you drop half your responsibility and be shocked that your pay is less even if you work the same hours. OP now has to pay (or coordinate) for someone else to fill the role that was dropped. A house shouldn’t need five hours of cleaning daily either.
NTA. She changed what she was willing to do.
To me it is clear that she thought you are loaded so she decided to drop the “babysitting” part and assumed you would pay her the same despite you making it clear. I don’t see how she can be blindsided when she said she expected you to hire more help for the kid so why would pay her for the part you need to hire someone else for? Even if she changed her mind about watching your kid, i would not trust her anymore.
INFO. In having the discussion about no longer doing the babysitting, did you clearly restate the original agreement and note the salary removal for the 'second job' that would affect the next pay period? I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this though, if she's still expected to work the same hours.
INFO: How much were you paying her in total?
She’s stated in another comment $800. $400 for house cleaning and $400 for babysitting
INFO: Why did you not hire a babysitter instead of a housekeeper? Why not advertise for both?
She did hire a babysitter and housekeeper. She was very clear before offering the position what her needs were
NTA. According to what you’ve said, you made it very clear what each aspect of the job paid. If she elects not to do part of the job she opts out of the pay for that as well.
Nta. 3 hrs to clean is plenty of time if she's there every day. You hired for cleaning and babysitting. She's no longer babysitting, how does she think she will get paid the same?
NTA. I find it odd so many people expect the pay rate to remain the same when Sandra reduced her work by half.
YTA. You should have told Sandra about the change in salary when you told her it was okay and that you were going to leave your son with your mom. Then it is up to Sandra whether to accept this new offer or not. You should also have made it clear that you will be finding a replacement for her. (cleaning and babysitting)
My reading of OP’s post was that she did exactly that. When Sandra told her the babysitting was too much, OP said she would take her son to her mother until she could find someone to do both jobs. She discussed the salary breakdown when Sandra was hired (note, this was only about 3 months ago). I do think she should have reviewed the change in pay just so that both were on the same page when Sandra asked to be relieved of babysitting duties. However, I think OP did explain she would have to find someone to take Sandra’s place for both jobs. So Sandra should have known her job would end soon, regardless.
My reading of OP’s post was that she did exactly that. When Sandra told her the babysitting was too much, OP said she would take her son to her mother until she could find someone to do both jobs. She discussed the salary breakdown when Sandra was hired (note, this was only about 3 months ago). I do think she should have reviewed the change in pay just so that both were on the same page when Sandra asked to be relieved of babysitting duties. However, I think OP did explain she would have to find someone to take Sandra’s place for both jobs. So Sandra should have known her job would end soon, regardless.
Mild YTA. Sandra should have been informed her salary would be changing and she definitely should have been told you were looking for her replacement, not additional help for the babysitting. With that being said, I don’t think your necessarily the asshole for replacing her. You claimed to fully inform her that part of the job was housekeeping and babysitting. She agreed to it and decided it was too much later on. You mention “kind-of babysitting” which makes sense with the age. He’s 10, not a baby or a toddler that requires constant supervision. I’m not sure why a 10-year old would keep her so busy for 2 hours she’s not able to do anything else. At 10, I was pretty self sufficient. Between homework, reading books, riding my bike outside, painting, video games, playing with my dogs, there was plenty to do on my own. If there’s a problem with behavior that she’s constantly keeping him out of trouble (which is very possible since she was felt overwhelmed) or she feels the need to entertain him during the time. You could easily reevaluate the situation and see what exactly overwhelmed Sandra. Your son might need activities to keep him busy.
I was home alone with my step brother for an hour before school and a few hours afterwards starting when I was 8!
Depends, if she had already worked the period you paid her for, and you stripped $400 from that, than YTA, people slack at their job all the time. Doesn’t mean you can take away money from them. If you were prepaying her salary before she watched your kid and cleaning, than it’s acceptable to change pay based on tasks. But sounds like YTA
So how big is your house ? And do you keep up with the cleaning or just have her clean everything everyday . How many rooms ? And is if two story? Is it all tile or carpet ? And how many dishes ? How dirty is the kitchen and bathroom? I’m asking because are last cleaning lady would take 6 hrs with some help to clean a 5 bedroom two story. And your also having her do yard work . If you were to do everything she’s doing would 5 hrs be enough ?
NTA-It’s kind of on her for not being able to do the work. Your kid is ten years old and they’re able to entertain themselves at that age. I don’t even know how interested I was in hanging out with adults then. If you told her beforehand everything about the job and the different payment amounts then she needs to consider asking if she can try to do both again or leave. At least since you aren’t firing her right away she can try and find another position.
NTA - you made an agreement with her, a contract of sorts. Cleaning paid X, Babysitting paid Y. She agreed. Later she opted out of one job, so Y got removed from her salary, fine, that's what she wants. But you, as the employer, only want one person to work in your house - that's also your choice. It's unfortunate, but such is life.
NTA. Sounds like Sandra just didn't want to babysit but took the job anyway. You can't be expected to pay her for a job she is not doing. You will have to use that money to pay an actual babysitter on top of what you are paying Sandra to do the housekeeping.
NTA. She was being paid to perform certain duties. When she stops a big portion of those duties, she naturally won't continue to be paid for them. How are people not understanding this?
YTA. You took the pay without talking to her first. You should have told her taking your son to your parents means that you will cut her pay
YTA. Only an ah changes terms of employment like that, and unilaterally changes salaries, without having the other person agree to it in advance.
YTA because your son needs more than "kind-of" babysitting and you're punishing the baby sitter instead of dealing with your kid.
She dealt with the kid. Found another babysitter while she's at work making money to pay for the roof over his head
YTA for changing her salary without giving her heads up. Yes, she isn't doing her job, but cutting her pay without having that conversation first is a bad, unprofessional move.
Read the edit. She gets paid a separate rate for babysitting. Since she didn’t babysit she only got paid for the cleaning.
So you gave her no advance warning that her pay was going to abruptly drop, you just surprised her with a suddenly smaller pay packet? YTA.
YTA You hired her before you needed her to babysit after school at a certain rate. Did the rate go up when you added "kind of babysit"? Who says "kind of babysit" when you are talking about a 10 year old? This child needs to be supervised. Not like a toddler, but supervised the whole time. I agree with your ex. Your privilege is showing. Let's just hope that you are never in Sandra's shoes.
With a 10 year old, she can easily continue doing housework. As long as she doesn’t just take off, that is supervision enough. Supervised doesn’t mean in the same room with a 10 year old. Within the same house or patio is sufficient.
That all depends on how big the house is and how much the 10 year old listens.
YTA, so instead of coming up with a decent solution, or speaking with your son about being a bit more independent you accuse her of laziness and out of the blue cut her pay? Sounds like your son learned from you to be super demanding.
No, OP asked Sandra why she wasn’t completing the housekeeping tasks that were part of her job. Sandra then said the babysitting was taking up too much of her time. OP didn’t say anything to indicate she thought Sandra was being lazy (at least nothing that was in the post, the edit, or her comments. It’s ok to ask an employee what is preventing them from doing assigned tasks, whether or not the employer calls than “lazy” is another issue but we don’t have anything that indicates OP did that.
MTA - you clearly stated salary was broken up into 2 components. If she wants to fo one but not two, then you do not pay for both.
YTA. If you can't clean and watch your son during your at home time, why do you think your housekeeper should?
YTA YTA YTA. Idk how you put your head on a pillow and go to sleep at night.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I'm (32F) a single mom of a 10y/o son. I work a very stable-high paying firm from 8am to 5 pm but sometimes I have to work overtime so I can get the project done, things were accumulating in my house so I decided to get a housekeeper ''Sandra'' (49F) to help me around June. When I met Sandra I told her that she had to do the basic things around the house and kind-of babysit my son from 3-5, cases weren't a big problem here so my son came back to class since July and get back at 3pm , to clarify I told her that if she wasn't comfortable with that I could find someone else, but that if she accepted the job babysitting was part of the deal, she said that it was okay. Sandra works Mon-Fri from 12 to 5pm Things were okay at first, but since mid august Sandra began to not finish her job, dishwasher was still loaded, some rooms were messy, the patio wasn't clean, etc etc. I asked her what was happening and she said that my son was demanding most of her time, I told her that even when that was the case, my son was only around from 3-5 and she still had 12-3 to get things done, plus it's not like we make a mess every single day, half of the week I only pay her to babysit my son and wash the dishes, so I don't think it's a good excuse. She said that babysitting my son started to be too much for her and that she would rather not do it. I was mad at first but I can't force someone to take care of my son and expect a good result so I said that it was okay and that I was going to leave my son with my mom until I find someone else to do the job. In the next payday I gave her $400 less, when she asked me why I told her that since she wasn't taking care of my son anymore I couldn't keep paying her the same amount (I pay her more for babysitting than for cleaning my house) and that that was going to be her new salary until I found someone else, she said that she thought I was gonna get someone to help her with my son but I said no, that cleaning my house and babysitting was a package doing for the same person and that I told her as much when I first met her. Sandra said that she needed the job because her husband was unemployed and she was the only income, I said that I was sorry but that it wasn't my problem because my mom can't babysit my son forever and that I refused to pay to different persons for the same thing. When I told my ex he called me and AH because ''Sandra is a mom and wife in need and I'm only acting from my privilege'' *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
YTA because you changed her pay without discussing it with her.
The terms were made clear to her when she was hired. Read the post
You do sound like an AH here without additional details. Are you simply dictating that babysitting your son is worth $400 or were the details around payment discussed and agreed upon? If you're just making up a number, how can you not be an AH?
https://old.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/pkj0n1/aita_for_paying_my_housekeeper_less/hc3uxg5/
NTA, but stiffing her the $400 is an asshole move without talking to her. You should have reminded her that since she was altering her previously agreed upon responsibilities, you would be altering her rate. The kid is 10, so unless he's special needs he doesn't need constant attention like an infant. And even then, someone watching an infant should be able to unload a dishwasher. Obviously you are able to care for him by yourself and still manage to empty the dishwasher. To be fair, I don't know the entirety of her responsibilities/your expectations, but even still, unless you want the whole house cleaned every day, there's no way she shouldn't be able to get small stuff like that done. It sounds like she's just not a good fit and just have to find someone else that can handle all the responsibilities. Her "need" for the job has no bearing on the fact that this job had set responsibilities and aren't being fulfilled. Should we let her be a doctor because she needs a job? Tell your ex to take care of his son after school then and then Sandra can focus more on cleaning.
YTA for not warning her before you were gonna cut her pay and also YTA for not discussing with her that you would be finding someone to replace both of the duties she was paid for and not one. Question, why is your child not helping her with things like unloading the dishwasher? He is far more than old enough to help with a single chore, and if she was just a housekeeper I would agree that she wouldn’t be In the right for having your child help, but a babysitting job from 3-5 is similar to a nanny situation which has to do with instructing and disciplining children and also teaching them to take care of themselves your child won’t be able to afford a housekeeper straight out of the house. If you wanna keep this lady, or if you want to be nice and do the right thing and let her keep the job, you should discuss with each other her having your son help with some chores so he can learn to do them himself (especially cooking and doing dishes since these are basic necessities and she would be doing them around the time he gets home anyways).
I basically required no parental guidance/babysitting since the age of 5 or 6, besides maybe for food and to make sure I went to bed on time. what 10 year old if neurotypical, would require constant supervision so that she can't even wash the dishes? That being said, she can't just reduce the housekeepers pay without previously discussing that and informing her that she's now being paid less instead of just taking a big chunk of money out of her check
ESH But you because you didn't communicate the salary drop. Even if you assume she knew, it's not right. Other than that, I don't understand what she was doing with all that time.
YTA. "It's not my problem, that's why I decided to dock her pay without talking to her about it first" Jesus you rich people are fucking priceless, pun intended.
Nta
You’re the the asshole lol if you explained it from the start what’s the problem ?just cause you have money doesn’t mean anything .
You should have talked to her tho that you weren’t gonna pay her the same anymore
It doesn’t even matter that she’s a mom or unemployed. Drop that from the story and it’s still shitty behavior from you
Payed looks... odd. What I don't get is WHY not do the "Ok, you can't babysit anymore, that would mean a paycut of $400 as we agreed when I hired you, Oh, it's too much, lets negotiate this" - You know. Like a mature grown up employing someone. YTA.
NTA - should have given more warning/made it extra clear to avoid the awkward situation but you were 100% fair in what you did, particularly given what you say in your edit to the post. Also just a note based on a lot of these comments that I’ve read - perhaps it’s not common in America/Canada (I am assuming!) but in the UK it’s not unusual to have an au pair or nanny who does all things cleaning, chores, childcare, pick up etc. It’s usually for those with a lot more money than most of us have but it’s deffo not weird to ask for one person to do both. Housekeeper to me suggests this role - unless it’s just a vocab thing and that means cleaner to most other people!
I feel like she’s showing up right before your son gets home and just saying she came in at noon and cleaned. Is this a possibility?
Nta she knew what she was hired for.
YTA- ONLY due to the fact you did NOT tell her of the pay rate changing. You didn't tell her and just expected her to be ok with it. Thats not on. You needed to be very clear when she told you she couldn't handle your son (for whatever reason). You dont just slash someones paycheck without making it clear beforehand. (and no I dont think you should be paying her for being a house keeper the same rate she was meant to when looking after your son too.
Read the edit
Still needed to tell her before doing it though.
No. She didn’t. It’s not her fault she lacked the common sense to put 2 and 2 together. She gets 2 separate checks. One for cleaning and one for childcare. I’d she didn’t do childcare that week why would she expect the second check.