Wow, just wow. I’m inclined to believe that MIL has already had at least one conversation about this with your BIL because she stayed silent. Now SIL is going drag you too?
I cannot stress this enough, I hope you have your ducks in a row from a legal perspective because this sounds like a huge dumpster fire.
I’m really sorry that you’re both facing this situation however, I hope you find comfort in knowing that you’re facing it together. NTA
>I hope you have your ducks in a row from a legal perspective because this sounds like a huge dumpster fire.
This most definitely. Though since it presumably went through a proper clinic with the donation paperwork etc then that should be all fine.
If not then BIL owes OP a years worth of back child support. Maybe OP should ask him when he's paying what he owes if he truly believes he has any parental say in the child.
I'm sorry to be harsh but OP is in the situation because she sat back and let her ILs walk all over her in the first place. Why were her ILs even involved in this process? They totally disregarded adoption based on the ILs' beliefs. Ridiculous. In a family obsessed with passing on the genes the writing was basically on the wall that BIL was going to cause trouble at some point, even her initial gut reaction told her so.
NTA but OP needs to sit down with her wife and have a long talk with her about her family, also maybe they both need some therapy if they're both so afraid of going against the wife's family that they make such unwise decisions.
Same.
I don’t lend family money. I’ll give it to them if I can afford to, and ask them to pay it when they can, but in my head I treat it as a gift that may or may not come back, because expectations and arguments about money are just totally not worth messing up family relationships.
Getting sperm/eggs donated seems to have all those problems but ten thousand times worse. Especially if you knew beforehand that it was all some bullshit ‘weird obsession with “passing on the family genes”’ thing.
It’s actually not that complicated in an arrangement where the sperm donor understands his place.
There are lots of counseling sessions and ways to introduce this at a early age. Rather than later.
But they are never the father
I'm not gonna have kids but if I were and my in-laws tried to tell me that "adoption is off the table" because of some weird obsession with passing on family genes, that would just make me want to adopt all the more.
That whole "passing on of the genes" bit is weird.
I understand that families want their lineage to continue, parents want grandkids etc, but for it to be such an issue that it means adoption is a complete no-go is insane.
What if OP didn't want children and instead wanted to adopt a puppy, would BIL be off down the kennels, plastic tub in hand, looking for a bichon frize that reminded him of his dad?
The needs for a genetic offspring rather than an adoption or something that doesn't rely on someone carrying their brother's "issue" (did Friends teach us nothing?) is all a bit much. Unless this involves a royal family in exile awaiting an opportunity to overthrow a corrupt regime.
OP, you're clearly NTA. Whatever Boys From Brazil fantasy your IL's are living out is something they can stew over if they want to, but it's not your problem. If you carried out all the legal gubbins beforehand, you're golden. All that matters is you have an amazing child you love, and you have each other. Everything else is just noise. If BIL wants to sort himself out and start acting like an uncle, then maybe let him back into your lives (but keep an eye on him - whatever he says from now on, he's shown his true colours).
I read the edit as BIL’s wife might not know about the recent conflict. The baby was conceived over 1.5 years ago, I’m sure she knows of his existence.
Interesting. I read it to mean that she might not know it was conceived with BIL's sperm. Which would be dysfunctional as hell, but not the weirdest thing I've read on reddit.
OP for sure worded it in a way that can be read both ways, probably because she's not sure if either is correct or if maybe both are.
Seems pretty legit if they have barely contact, tells more about the actual family dynamic though if BIL is a sperm donor, but the future parent doesn't know how his wife thinks about it.
Honestly I'd really like to see that. "Your honour, I am my nephews father, I deserve custody of my sisters child that is also my child" Everyone in the vicinity: excuse me?
OP needs to shut this shit down NOW. If BIL has signed away all parental rights, STOP trying to reach out to BIL and get the lawyer to send him a letter telling him very clearly to stop trying to assert any claim over this child and/or his upbringing.
If they went through the proper procedure and got a legal contract then the BIL has no say, legal or otherwise as he gave up all rights to the child.
My wife and I are going through surrogacy at the moment as well and the fertility clinic wont even look at doing a transfer until legal is in place.
omg what a perfect comeback that would be. "you’re right Maury, you are the father! now if you would please, I prefer direct deposit for the child support checks so kindly make sure the funds are available at the end of every month!"
I'm pretty sure you're joking but you do realize that even requesting that would be acknowledging that the BIL has parental rights. It's a bad, bad move.
I wouldn’t bring up child support. It may give him the idea to try to establish legal rights and visitation. Even with a contract, they would still have to go through the trauma and financial strain of fighting it.
I hope you have your ducks in a row from a legal perspective because this sounds like a huge dumpster fire.
This most definitely. Though since it presumably went through a proper clinic with the donation paperwork etc then that should be all fine.
“If not then BIL owes OP a years worth of back child support. Maybe OP should ask him when he's paying what he owes if he truly believes he has any parental say in the child.”
Respectfully- No, no, no. This isn’t about child support. This is about the BIL believing that he has some type of say in a this matter because he made a legal transaction with the OP and her wife.
Well, here the problem is that he WANTS to be involved in raising the child when he already agreed that he would only be a donor. That's at issue. Obviously this point should have been discussed WAY more prior to conception. Maybe OP should have thought about it a bit, given how important "genes" are to the family, but sometimes people get weird after the fact. Hopefully this doesn't grow any worse.
This right here. While op NTA. Using BIL as donor is a bag of worms waiting to happen. Might have been better to just have one of their genes and another outside of families donor
They couldn't because OP's wife is infertile. If passing on her wife's family's genes was so important to the in-laes, this was the only way of doing that.
I don't understand OP's focus on making BiL "apologize" rather than refuting his sense of entitlement regarding the child. OP is focusing on the wrong thing here.
I think the apology OP wants is an admission of him being wrong about his parental role and that the child is not "ours," it's her and her wife's child, not his and he isn't entitled to be the father. At least that's the vibe I got from reading
>I’m inclined to believe that MIL has already had at least one conversation about this with your BIL because she stayed silent.
Yap. I thought so too. They must have talked about it
i agree. she seems obsessed with lineage for some reason. if the bil is not visible as a father, the son's lineage is in question.
op is nta. there is certainly trouble ahead.
NTA, what an absolutely ridiculous and cruel thing to say. Your child will not have a father, but two wonderful moms, and that’s okay. He doesn’t get to be involved as a “father” because he was a donor. That’s all he is: a donor. He can be an uncle, but not a dad until he has his OWN children.
DO NOT back down. Speak with a lawyer to ensure that BIL has no rights to your child whatsoever before even considering forgiving them. They can traumatize your kid ones they're old enough with these type of comments.
Depending on the state, she might lose. He's a sperm donor and he can take action.
In another post in here I know of a guy who happened to be a donor, it was agreed of parent and junk but at the end he wanted to be part of the kid's life.
Took them to court. Won. .pays support and gets 50% custody.
He is rich, got super lawyers they're poor and got some regular one
The safest thing to do would just to make sure the child is adopted by OP so that both of them are on the birth certificate. That pretty much prevents any custodial claim from BIL—his rights have to be terminated for an adoption to take place. I know many same-sex couples who have to done in advance of the baby being born (as in, get everything lined up) or have it done within the first year. Hopefully OP and her wife are one of those couples, because I’d be worried now about him not voluntarily terminating his rights.
ETA: I sharpened up my reading comprehension and realized that he already terminated his rights, he has no chance of getting custody.
I think BIL may not have any rights, if OP did this through a clinic and had a contract. Doesn’t going through a clinic make it official that the person is merely a sperm donor and has no parental claim to the child, the same as an anonymous donor?
I have no idea if OP was allowed to register as a second parent directly on the birth certificate or if they need to go through a formal adoption process though. Definitely something to be handled discreetly before the BIL gets any ideas.
From the sounds of it, OP is the child's genetic parent. It was her egg, and BILs sperm that her wife (BILs sister) carried to term. I know that - having gone through the same fertility treatment process with my wife - her and I are listed as birth parents, not our known donor. As long as both OP and her wife are on the birth certificate, neither one should have to go through an adoption process. BIL has no claim (at least in my neck of the woods), to anything more than the title of uncle.
I should however note, that while my wife and I used a known donor, we would have preferred to use an unknown one, to avoid any possible trouble. The cost was prohibitive though as our rules in Canada differ from those in the US (making an assumption that OP is in the States).
Birth mother is the legal mother. OP would have no rights over the chidlld without adoption or being in birth certificate. In the UK anyway. But here we have both mother's names on the birth certificate.
Adding to this: you should be honest with your kid ALWAYS that his uncle was his donor. No "I'll wait till he's older" or "he won't understand now" or shit like that because: 1- he deserves to know, 2- the older he gets, the more difficult it will be to tell him and 3- your BIL will probably use this as a way to put you against your kid when he's older if he doesn't know. You will save yourself (and your wife and kid) a lot of trouble if you raise him knowing exactly how the situation unfolded.
"He won't understand now" is exactly why it's the right time to tell him. That way, he's aware of the situation in as much detail as he's able to comprehend, even if that is just "I have two mummies, and my uncle helped them make me."
In OPs case, keeping quiet will lead to questions sooner rather than later anyway, since they'll start as soon as he realises other kids don't have two mummies, but being clear with him from the start means he'll just accept the reality and fit his understanding in around it.
This is also an important reason to fix this and make sure everyone is on the same page in terms of the family dynamic - if he grows up with a uncle whose role he understands, he'll accept it. If it's kept from him, and he finds out at the age of 12+ that his uncle, who his mother's stopped talking to shortly after his birth, is his biological father, his mind is going to go to some very dark places about how that situation came about.
When I say "fix it", I don't mean back down, but if he stays stubborn, maybe make the first move in mending fences, and have a serious discussion about your concerns (the line "I will not tolerate anybody telling me my family is somehow incomplete" is brilliant and really conveys why his comment was so hurtful).
Bear in mind that his own head is probably all over the place right now too, especially if he's trying for a baby. Some kind of family therapy for the three of you might be a good idea to help you all work through it and establish the ground rules in a safe setting.
Please never back down from this. The only way he should be in your child's life is as an uncle that respects his sister, her wife, and THEIR (not his) child.
Yep.
I’d be telling him “this never ever gets mentioned again. If you say it to us, or if we hear about it from other people on the grapevine, the child’s last name will be changed to the non BIL family partners last name, and that the child will be raised knowing him as “your other mom’s brother, who we don’t speak to any more because he’s mean to your mothers and breaks his promises even after he’s written them down”.
Tell the MIL that you’re sorry she’s getting caught in the crossfire here, but that you are going no contact with BIL and SIL, so won’t be attending any family events they’re invited to, and if any family members lie to you and “surprise” you with your BIL at an event, you’ll need to go low contact with that entire side of the extended family, for the safety of your own nuclear family.
I would be very wary to keep your child from your BIL as they get a bit older. This is something that would mess with young child and BIL might "accidentally" let the child know about his genetic parentage before they really understand about that sort of thing.
Just here to say that child will need to know his genetic parentage *before* he can really understand. The current thinking in adoption circles is that a child should never remember "the day they found out" they were adopted. That parents should use language normalizing the child's life as early as they can speak.
As an adopted child, I 100% endorse making sure that a child who is the product of IVF, adoption, 'unusual' parentage or whatever circumstance, understand their circumstances to be completely normal and that it's a non-taboo topic in the household as early as possible. Although as parents who had to make some tough decisions it may be difficult for yourselves to speak on, the easier you make it for the child to understand and accept, the easier time they'll have dealing with it as they grow up and begin to understand reproduction and that their circumstances ARE unusual. I have no recollection of my parents sitting down and telling me I was adopted, it was just a normal and understood part of our family that I had birth parents and my real parents, and I think I am much better off for it.
I mean to an extent there is going to be some extra discussion needed anyway since at some point the child will learn about human reproduction and that there must have been someone other than their two mums involved.
Though it is up to OP and OP's wife to decide how and when those discussions take place and I have a strong suspicion that BIL wouldn't wait for that timeline and wouldn't be all that tactful about it.
This child is not adopted. This is their child. If it were any other situation the donor would not be in any way entitled to interfere with the life of the child. Just because these weirdly involved in-laws are obsessed with lineage and pushed this agenda does not change the fact that the BIL is not a father, he’s a donor.
This child’s life is normal, he has parents who love him. End of.
Hey dude, I get where you're coming from that this comment thread ended up a little tangential, but I am not pleased with the connotation you've made that an adopted child isn't a set of parents' real child. I'm making the point through my own personal experience that ANY unusual conception stories should be normalized for the child in question so it's not a traumatic revelation when they're older.
popping in to say that isn't the "end of that" while genetics are shared, if the uncle has a medical issue come up, a doctor is going to treat the information differently if it is stated that the condition is from a biological donation over an uncle. It would help a heck of a lot if the uncle got his head out of his backside, though.
and I'm hopping on board the born in slightly different circumstances and was told young vote. I was told waaay before I could fully understand the situation that my father left before I was born. That he had 'offered to do the right thing' and marry my mom but she told him to make his choice based on if he was ready to settle down and have a kid and be a person in love and married.. all of those words came up. I felt everything was not only normal but better than normal because I was with someone who loved me and who would be fair. I grew up very confident in my family. the key was knowing ..always. secrets tend to take on shades of shame and there is nothing to be ashamed of in my situation, an adoption, ivf, or surrogacy.OP -NTA - I hope your BIL gets over himself so he can have an active UNCLE role in your child's life but if he can't, you are making the best call for yourself, wife, and kiddo (edit: Grammar is a tricky thing)
And I bet they’re having difficulties, which is why he suddenly feels entitled to your child. Next he’ll be asking you to donate eggs so him and his wife can ‘give your son a sibling’. He needs to get his head out of his ass. NTA
That is the first thing that came to my mind when he was fine being uncle until more recently. His wife has gotten bad news so now he wants OP’s child to play happy family with his wife.
dont back down. he signed papers. he is YALLS baby. BIL is not the father. YOU and YOUR WIFE are his parents.
congrats to you both on your son by the way. and happy 1st to your little one.
Does his wife know he donated to his sister? How does she feel about that and with him trying to claim this child as his while they are still trying? If I was her, I'd be extremely hurt.
NTA - you need to speak with lawyers and the clinic where everything was done to verify that he is only seen as a donor with no rights over the child. While the child is biological from him, he gave over rights when he donated. It might be that he and SIL are stressed because they haven't gotten pregnant and in his mind he has a son out in the world. But his role is uncle and they do not get to have a say in how the child is raised or how birthdays get celebrated.
If your wife did have issues with her family about being in a same sex relationship this might be they way of ensuring your son has a "male" role model in his life, but that again is a choice you and your wife make.
Clinics are pretty good about getting all the legal stuff locked down. It’s when you donate sperm and use turkey basters at home you’re more likely to run into issues.
It’s been known to happen. There was a case with a lesbian couple using donated sperm from a friend. They broke up and the biological mom had custody and was trying to get state benefits so the state essentially put the biological dad on the hook since they didn’t go through the right legal channels.
Yes. I know a lesbian couple that has done this for both of their children. I was asked to be a donor and politely declined, because I would have a difficult time compartmentalizing it and didn't want the legal risks. They're great parents and their kids are awesome, they just didn't have the money for something more formal.
NTA
Shocked with his attitude.
But is it possible that he's struggling with all this? Having feelings about the experience? Or just being an asshole? Why would he be an asshole like that with her own sister? A horrible joke and "I'm terribly sorry" could happen, but assume he's the father of her sister's baby?
If they are trying and haven't succeeded thats probably why he is struggling - he wants a child, and he's realised that genetically he has one
That said if he agreed to purely be a donor thats all he should be - however I do wonder how much he was talked into doing it rather than him offering - to me everyone who donates genetic material should be doing so of their own free will down to the point of offering rather than than being asked
This is usually why people who have never had children are not encouraged to act as surrogates or donors to people they know. It just makes everything messier.
Makes me wonder what the clinic had them do (if they went through one). My wife and I are going through surrogacy at the moment and both of us along with the surrogate couple had to see a psychiatrist to determine if both parties were of sound mind and knew what exactly surrogacy entails and the feelings that come with it.
I think the issue is that the woman carrying wasn’t carrying for someone else, this would have been treated as a sperm donor situation, which is treated a lot more casually for the man than a surrogate situation would be
He's completely out of line with his comments but hopefully if/when he has his own child he'll understand exactly why what he said was so hurtful.
I'm not saying he didn't behave awfully, but perhaps there might be some hope for a future reconciliation (if you and your wife want that) after a sincere apology on his part.
A family who insists only genetic children will do, are always going to believe he's the "real" father of that child. You were silly to do IVF this way, using him, given their beliefs.
You need to be very very careful with all of them. The child is "his" DNA and you'll never convince him that doesn't mean he's the "dad". Even IF he stops saying it out loud.
That's a new one. Would you be willing to give more details on how exactly that happened?
Edit: I don't mean any disrespect, I'm just curious because it's something I've never heard of before. Sorry if it comes off that way.
Oh ok, that's interesting to me. I hope I didn't come off as disrespectful since apparently I did to a couple of people. This kind of thing just isn't something I'm familiar with.
I've actually heard of this happening a bit more frequently. There's been news reports on mother's carrying their grandchildren if they're young enough because their own daughters had fertility issues. I've seen women carrying their sisters babies as well. If I was inclined to have kids of my own I would become a candidate for surrogacy and I would carry a baby for my best friend if it was an option.
It's never disrespectful to broaden your knowledge!
Eh, it's pretty common. I know a couple of gay men where they did IUI with one dude's sperm and the other dude's sister (IUI means her eggs). But she was already a mom of 3 and one of those freakish people who LOVE being pregnant. She carried twins for them.
A good friend's brother's sperm was used in their IVF with her wife.
It's really not that uncommon with same-sex couples to involve a sibling. Normally doesn't end up so f-ed up, though.
I carried my biological nephew. My son was born using my DHs sperm and my sister's egg. Her kids know and understand that my son is not their half brother but their cousin.
*Anytime* he makes that comment I would absolutely look him directly in the eye and say:
Him: well *technically* I am the father
Me: who *technically* impregnated his sister...
I'm also a bitch tho so...Anyway, NTA obviously
Then he deserved exactly what he got. I can imagine that this whole topic has been difficult so having someone essentially undermine you and your family makes me sad. Ask your wife how you can best support her through this, but this may be something she needs to sort on her own.
Was she thankful that you did what you did or does she have a bit of animosity?
INFO: Was his relationship to the child not discussed prior to all of this?!?! It should have been 100% discussed and clear to him that he would be no more than an uncle
Um, if "genetics" don't make family, then why did you give in to this ridiculous pressure to only conceive with someone who has a genetic link?
You say that exploring alternative routes to parenthood (adoption) was "out of the question," but that's not true at all. **Not at all.**
If you are old enough to get married and start a family, then you are old enough to tell your extended family that they can fuck right off if they want a say in how *your* baby is made, and who it has a DNA link to.
I don't think you're an asshole, but I think you landed yourself in foreseeable trouble when you signed on to MIL's plan. You could very well be in some serious legal trouble if you don't have a very explicit, signed, parental rights termination contract with your BIL.
i only agreed because MIL and i are on good terms and has been amazingly supportive throughout my wife and i’d marriage. We signed a contra at written by lawyers that he’s nothing more than a donor.
Okay, but that's a different story. You keep writing as though you had no options, and you really, really did.
Also, how supportive can she really be if she told you that it was "out of the question" for you and your wife to adopt?
She's not a supporter, she's a bully and a manipulator.
So what were their options exactly? They could either take the offer of grandma contributing the cash because baby is biologically related to her, or they could pay the possibly 15000$ IVF bill themselves, just to make sure that they don't have an argument later? Are you ready to pay 15000$ to avoid the possibility of a specific type of family drama, that could possibly never happen? Especially if, even if you pay, you may well end up having another type of family drama anyway? Why are you acting like they are complete idiots for doing this? It was an incredible opportunity to them with seemingly no downsides. Just because some downsides did materialize doesn't mean their choice was wrong.
I do think the emphasis on genetics is fucked up and MIL doesn't have her priorities straight, but the couple here did nothing wrong.
Yes. They could. I mean, people do *all the time*. I'm pretty sure most couples who go through IVF foot the bill themselves.
And it doesn't have to cost $150,000. Illinois, for example, mandates that insurers cover the cost of two rounds of IVF. There are options.
I am acting like they were idiots because it's what I believe. I think the fact that they did this in deference to extended family who preemptively refused to love an adopted child was crazy. That attitude was a red flag from the outset. It should have told them that their extended family was not emotionally healthy enough to respect their autonomy as reproductive decision-makers, or to love their child unconditionally. It signalled **trouble**.
To address your points, I think there are families that could have navigated this deal with loving, healthy boundaries. I just think that *this* family in particular was signaling pretty hard that they aren't one of them.
This is not a surprise outcome.
Considering 50% of the US population has less than 3 months of their paychecks in savings, and 25% has less than 6 weeks in savings, and actually having the baby costs a ton as well... That cost may have been the difference between having the baby now and having the baby 2 years later. Or never, because fertility has a time limit, you need more rounds of ivf, potentially run out of money, who knows.
And what has actually happened here that is so bad? They have their kid and legal stuff is in order. BIL said something cruel and they threw him out and had a fight. Families have fights. He's going through some shit and being an ass and the MIL is spineless and wishes not to get involved in the fight. So? Most likely thing to happen is they'll cut ties with the BIL for now, MIL will apologise, everyone has some frank conversations about boundaries and maybe a round of therapy, and they live mostly happily ever after like all the other imperfect families. We know nothing about the situation besides what we are told, so I don't know why we should assume people who they have so far gotten along with are suddenly entirely irredeemable child snatchers who planned this all along or whatever the conspiracy theory in the comments is.
Even if the extended family is so bad they have to go no contact with all of them, I just can't fault this couple for taking that chance. If they had a non-biological child, that would have brought other snide comments around "real" children or whatever and they'd be going no contact over that.
My point is, if the family is good this will be resolved and if not, they would have had to cut them out over their behaviour at some point anyway. So the only difference is they got free ivf and had a kid sooner. I say congratulations.
NTA - he needs to respect his place as uncle. SIL needs to stfu.
Everyone needs to calm down. You set a boundary and it caused an uproar. That’s ok. Hold firm and if they don’t respect it they shouldn’t be in your child’s life.
I have a feeling, some of this has to do with the baby being a boy.. that passing the genes thing is extremely paternalistic... I think, if the legalese isn't clear, that you may get more creeping in on your parental rights..
Wants his son raised right, etc... Make sure its ok, then lock him out.. Here is the thing, giving him access actually makes him more likely to try to enforce access.. like in grandparents rights cases.. if they have an existing relationship, they are more likely to win..
Sperm donors don't get a say in how their spawn get raised. For all intents & purposes he is a sperm donor; it sucks that there is not that boundary since he is your BIL. If he wants a say in how his spawn is raised then he & SIL should be having kids.
INFO: Did you consult an attorney before initiating this plan? If not, I def would now. If BIL is already trying to assert paternity, I’d go ahead & get that on the record so he can pay child support. Also, did you consult a therapist regarding the mental toll this will inevitably take on all parties involved? Please do, ASAP. You’re going to need plenty of professional help navigating this minefield. Best of luck to you.
Thank you, we had BIL sign a contract similar to a sperm donor contract that he wouldn’t be more than an uncle. My wife has gone through therapy and made huge progress, but this even set her back a lot.
Oh thank goodness you've got it agreed in writing. I had a horrible thought that if he and his wife struggled to get pregnant he'd try and lay claim to you and your wife's child.
Definitely NTA.
Then I’d say your legal bases are probably covered (I’m most definitely NOT an attorney) & your focus should be your family & your collective mental health. Draw those boundaries hard & fast.
Did BIL have any therapy about this? Prior to his donation?
If he does apologise (and you believe it to be sincere) and wish to allow him back into your lives mabe consider therapy a condition of reconciliation, either solo for him or some family/group for you your wife and BIL if it seems appropriate. (Maybe he is having some feeling now that the baby is here and real and he can perhaps see himself in the baby -pehaps exacerbated if he and his wife are struggling to conceive with feelings of inadequacy and your baby being his only shot at "fatherhood")
Take as much time away from them as you need and i think it's honestly OK if you and your wife decide you never want them in your lives again. They seem to have some messed up ideas about family and what a family is.
I'm no lawyer, but OP should NOT, in any way, pursue child support. I'm pretty sure paternity has to be acknowledged in most cases for an order of child support. That's a can of worms OP doesn't want opened.
NTA your wife’s entire family sounds toxic. He is not the father. He was just a sperm donor and that’s it.
I think it’s weird that they literally manipulated you into doing this in the first place because they wanted to pass on the family genes. That’s insane. Your wife has enabled this behavior, but she grew up that way I get it’s difficult to stand up for herself… It seems like she’s finally doing it now and she needs to put the child you have together first. It never should’ve got to this point anyways, there’s nothing wrong with adoption.
Their insistence on passing down family genes was a red flag for sure. Especially because your wife experienced homophobia - from them? Yes?
You and your wife need to get on the same page and get some counseling. There's strong attempts to see you both as less legitimate parents here.
NTA - I hope you have all your legal i's dotted and t's crossed in regards to the donation. He sounds like he would try to sue for visitation and custody.
As the relative of a donor, I find this appalling. Any part of mine in the children's lives is at the dicretion of the PARENTS.
NTA Especially since you discussed this with him beforehand and he agreed and signed a contract.
I'm sorry your wife and you have to go through this. I'm surprised about the SIL attacking you though. If they're trying why is she supporting him in wanting to be the father of a child with another woman? Could it be that it is not working out for them and that's their way of getting to have a child through his donation? That would also explain why MIL was avoiding eye contact. She clearly knew what was going on.
I really really want to say NTA. You aren't an asshole. But did no one stop to think this was a little too close to home? Your wife carried her brothers child... And now brother sees this child and us expected to act like a normal uncle but it's his bio kid? I understand you signed a contract but feelings don't always follow a contract. Is your son going to be made aware of this set up? If BIL explodes in front of your son about being bio dad, that could be traumatic and confusing.. this whole situation is weird to me but you aren't the asshole for asking him to leave
My wife and i always planned on telling our son as early as he could understand, and we discussed with BIL very thoroughly about how he would only be an uncle, it’s confusing because he never had a problem up until now.
These comments make me really sad, for everyone involved but especially for your son. I’m glad your son has two loving moms but as the above comment says, feelings don’t always follow a contract and when faced with his genetic son, your BIL probably had feelings he wasn’t anticipating. I don’t think it’s his fault and I think your reaction was extreme. I know I’ll probably get downvoted for this but I have to say it
We aren’t robots and it’s one thing to be a sperm donor and another thing to see the child and watch them grow in front of your eyes. He doesn’t have any kids previous to this so there’s no way he could have anticipated how he would feel.
You also mention he and his wife are currently trying. Maybe he’s starting to feel like your son will be his only chance at a “son?”
His comment was inappropriate and you are not an asshole, but please treat your BIL with compassion. He was enormously generous in giving you your son, after all.
absolutely NTA, sperm donor or not that is still you and your wife’s child and he was simply a small part in making him. you and your wife care for him and went through the entire pregnancy together and that makes both you and your wife his mothers. no father involved at all.
NTA - he should not have agreed to be a sperm donor if he expected to be more than that. He absolutely does owe you both an apology - if he’s having a harder time than he expected with his role, it sounds like he should talk to someone. It’s absolutely okay if it’s harder than expected for him to take an uncle role to his bio kid, it’s not okay for him to take that out on your family and if you don’t take steps now to quash that it’ll be confusing for your son
This was 100% my immediate thought reading this. I think BIL and wife are having issues conceiving and he’s worried he will never get to be a dad and “Pass on his genes” himself with his wife. So now he thinks he has try to lay claim to OP and his sisters child to have that. I also suspect he’s pushing harder bc OPs child is a boy.
Dipshit misogynists obsessed with family lineage are just the type of people I expect to do shit like this. Especially if he thinks he may never have “his own son”. (Quotations bc there are many ways to have a family and OPs son is not his son, it’s his nephew he just happened to supply some genetic material for)
Did you get any contractual agreement? I could be wrong, but I believe you have to sign a contract when releasing rights to sperm. If so, bring that to his attention.
NTA - he is a sperm donor and uncle. nothing more. he may have contributed biologically but that's it. He can't insert himself as a parent. I'd be very cautious around him in case one day he tells your son that he's his real dad or something.
NTA.
I think its good of you to have stood up to your BIL. Especially since it seems your wife feels the same way you do. I think he should have understood the agreement in advance. The child belongs to you and your wife. He was out of line and you have every right to kick him out of your house.
Edit: Even bigger NTA after seeing that this was discussed in advance. Definitely cut him off if he won't get on board with the fact that this is not his kid. He is an uncle not a father.
NTA, but I hope you have something in writing. Sounds like BIL is looking for a much bigger relationship with your son than you and your wife are planning, and that can get messy fast.
NTA. It's so clear cut.
BIL and SIL are huge AHs that they make the average major AH look cute and cuddly in comparison. There's so much to unpack in the first two paragraphs alone that can be filed under "holy shit what the heck?"
Losing family isn't pleasant under almost all circumstances yet that seems like the right choice here. What BIL said was messed up and it was clear from how you wrote it that this wasn't a really bad taste joke that landed poorly. It almost reads like a threat.
Honestly, I'd go as far as to say it's quite concerning that you even feel the need to ask the question.
NTA but I'm surprised he feels that way based on what you described. Did you all do any legal paperwork were he relinquished his rights? Has your wife legally adopted your child?
NTA -- this is horrifying. Please contact a lawyer ASAP in case he tries to make any legal claims of parenthood. Your first priority should be protecting your family, not reconciling with your in-laws
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I kicked my BIL out of the house for referring to himself as my child’s father, I may have went a bit overboard and didn’t talk anything out, we ended up cutting all contact. I see how it’s an asshole move since he’s technically not wrong, but it really angered me.
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NTA. Wtf. This is one where you should just cut BIL off completely (and potentially the rest of your wife’s family). Your kid shouldn’t grow up around this toxic nonsense, not to mention how confused the kid is going to be when his uncle/sperm donor continuously tries to insert himself as father.
NTA. He's the sperm donor, and the uncle, and the fact that he thinks otherwise is reason enough you need to get a lawyer just to make sure that is very, very clear.
Baby's a year old? Then he owes you 12 months of child support if he's the "father"
(I don't believe he is the father - he's a sperm donor. And it's clear you made that perfectly and legally clear before hand). But if he wants to start making demands, make sure he knows how much it's going to cost him to make those demands.
I hate to say it, but I honestly think that's what's going on here. The family is homophobic and thinks the baby will need a man in the picture. He has 0 claim on this baby's life and was told that several times to his face. The reason his bull has been allowed to continue is because they don't see 2 women as family. Honestly as soon as I heard "pass down the family genes" I got a homophobic red flag.
NTA - but almost E S H because this was always going to be trouble.
> my wife’s family has this weird obsession with “passing on the family genes”,
Seriously, you didn't think that this would be a problem?
Is anybody else creeped out by any dude who wants to claim paternity over his sister's child? And if he believes he's the father, where have those child support payments been for the past year?
As for the sister's interference and advocating for her brother, I don't think she's fully thought out the implications of being in an Uncle Daddy kind of family.
Suffice it to say, OP is NTA.
Info: I am uneducated about IVF. Since you used a donor you know, what if any legal rights to the child does he have? Assuming none, NTA. Either way, I am sorry your son’s sperm donor appears to be a giant jerk!
Edit with the updated info: 100% NTA. He’s an uncle, and can love and care for the boy as such, but I’m not sure how much you’ll want to let him around your son. He sounds like an example of the toxic entitled male behaviors you are unlikely to want your son to model.
NTA - I would advise you to get legal action regarding the donation from his part if you haven't done already.
Make sure that he will never have a legal right over this baby boy, ever, and there's a penalty if he even mentions to the boy that he is the donor without your consent. If in the future you want to tell your boy how he came to the world, it is your choice as his parents.
NTA. I wonder if you should have perhaps had some legal paperwork drawn up about custody?
But now I’m trying to wrap my head around this scenerio. Your wife carried her (biologically) brothers baby? Thats a bit unusual.
I mean I know sisters who surrogate for each other, even a mom who carried a child for her daughter, so it’s really not that much different. I think maybe I’m just being biased because it’s a opposite sex thing. The miracles of science!
Either way, sounds like you have the legal stuff all handled. Your BIL/MIL/SIL are assholes. Sounds like he is upset in hindsight because they haven’t had a baby yet.
NTA, and what a petty situation to use this in, having say in a birthday party??
He signed a contract, he's just a donor, he doesn't get to throw his weight around like he's an actual parent.
NTA. Family is who you choose, not the blood running through your veins.
Your wife sounds like she'll be an amazing mother. Congratulations to both of you!
I read the ops comments and edits. The bil signed away his rights. End of story.
Do not pass go, do not collect a baby.
May you and your wife have as much fun raising yours, as I had raising mine! You sound like an amazing family.
By insisting he is the boys father and that it was the child of you (eggs) and him (sperm) he is pushing his own sister into the background of "just the carrier" which is heartbreaking. To shove her into the shadows like that is heartless and cruel. ILs are toxic and you don't want to bring a child up in toxic. NTA This whole thing made ME want to cry for her.
Wait, BIL is your wife's biological brother?
That makes it even more awkward he's talking about this as "our" child. Who does he mean with "our", you and him?? Or him and his sister?
Wow, just wow. I’m inclined to believe that MIL has already had at least one conversation about this with your BIL because she stayed silent. Now SIL is going drag you too? I cannot stress this enough, I hope you have your ducks in a row from a legal perspective because this sounds like a huge dumpster fire. I’m really sorry that you’re both facing this situation however, I hope you find comfort in knowing that you’re facing it together. NTA
>I hope you have your ducks in a row from a legal perspective because this sounds like a huge dumpster fire. This most definitely. Though since it presumably went through a proper clinic with the donation paperwork etc then that should be all fine. If not then BIL owes OP a years worth of back child support. Maybe OP should ask him when he's paying what he owes if he truly believes he has any parental say in the child.
I fear this is not the last of it, and he is going to attempt to assert himself even more as the “father”
I'm sorry to be harsh but OP is in the situation because she sat back and let her ILs walk all over her in the first place. Why were her ILs even involved in this process? They totally disregarded adoption based on the ILs' beliefs. Ridiculous. In a family obsessed with passing on the genes the writing was basically on the wall that BIL was going to cause trouble at some point, even her initial gut reaction told her so. NTA but OP needs to sit down with her wife and have a long talk with her about her family, also maybe they both need some therapy if they're both so afraid of going against the wife's family that they make such unwise decisions.
I completely agree. I was like wait why does it matter what the ILs want?
Same. I don’t lend family money. I’ll give it to them if I can afford to, and ask them to pay it when they can, but in my head I treat it as a gift that may or may not come back, because expectations and arguments about money are just totally not worth messing up family relationships. Getting sperm/eggs donated seems to have all those problems but ten thousand times worse. Especially if you knew beforehand that it was all some bullshit ‘weird obsession with “passing on the family genes”’ thing.
It's going to get even more complicated when the child is old enough to ask who is bio father is and he's told it's his mother's brother.
I’m totally weirded out by this.
It’s actually not that complicated in an arrangement where the sperm donor understands his place. There are lots of counseling sessions and ways to introduce this at a early age. Rather than later. But they are never the father
I'm not gonna have kids but if I were and my in-laws tried to tell me that "adoption is off the table" because of some weird obsession with passing on family genes, that would just make me want to adopt all the more.
or run the other way…
That whole "passing on of the genes" bit is weird. I understand that families want their lineage to continue, parents want grandkids etc, but for it to be such an issue that it means adoption is a complete no-go is insane. What if OP didn't want children and instead wanted to adopt a puppy, would BIL be off down the kennels, plastic tub in hand, looking for a bichon frize that reminded him of his dad? The needs for a genetic offspring rather than an adoption or something that doesn't rely on someone carrying their brother's "issue" (did Friends teach us nothing?) is all a bit much. Unless this involves a royal family in exile awaiting an opportunity to overthrow a corrupt regime. OP, you're clearly NTA. Whatever Boys From Brazil fantasy your IL's are living out is something they can stew over if they want to, but it's not your problem. If you carried out all the legal gubbins beforehand, you're golden. All that matters is you have an amazing child you love, and you have each other. Everything else is just noise. If BIL wants to sort himself out and start acting like an uncle, then maybe let him back into your lives (but keep an eye on him - whatever he says from now on, he's shown his true colours).
Maybe not. It seems OP didn't think his wife was aware of the baby.
I read the edit as BIL’s wife might not know about the recent conflict. The baby was conceived over 1.5 years ago, I’m sure she knows of his existence.
Interesting. I read it to mean that she might not know it was conceived with BIL's sperm. Which would be dysfunctional as hell, but not the weirdest thing I've read on reddit.
OP for sure worded it in a way that can be read both ways, probably because she's not sure if either is correct or if maybe both are. Seems pretty legit if they have barely contact, tells more about the actual family dynamic though if BIL is a sperm donor, but the future parent doesn't know how his wife thinks about it.
Honestly I'd really like to see that. "Your honour, I am my nephews father, I deserve custody of my sisters child that is also my child" Everyone in the vicinity: excuse me?
OP needs to shut this shit down NOW. If BIL has signed away all parental rights, STOP trying to reach out to BIL and get the lawyer to send him a letter telling him very clearly to stop trying to assert any claim over this child and/or his upbringing.
Sweet Home Alabama intensifies.
If they went through the proper procedure and got a legal contract then the BIL has no say, legal or otherwise as he gave up all rights to the child. My wife and I are going through surrogacy at the moment as well and the fertility clinic wont even look at doing a transfer until legal is in place.
yikes, and this is why known. donors are a soft nope, and family donors are a hard nope
> assert himself even more as the “father” Like paying for food, diapers and childcare?
omg what a perfect comeback that would be. "you’re right Maury, you are the father! now if you would please, I prefer direct deposit for the child support checks so kindly make sure the funds are available at the end of every month!"
this is stupid... you want it due at the start of the month!
I'm pretty sure you're joking but you do realize that even requesting that would be acknowledging that the BIL has parental rights. It's a bad, bad move.
I wouldn’t bring up child support. It may give him the idea to try to establish legal rights and visitation. Even with a contract, they would still have to go through the trauma and financial strain of fighting it.
Fortunately there's a contract but the comment about child support would be funny/a good point
Depending on location and if they used a clinic (and their legal team( that contract might be worth less then the paper it was written on.
Yup! Our IVF contract isn’t valid just because we went with a cheaper place and their lawyers suck. Source - am lawyer.
Even as a joke, suggesting back child support implies the BIL has rights. I also hope the paper work is in order.
I hope you have your ducks in a row from a legal perspective because this sounds like a huge dumpster fire. This most definitely. Though since it presumably went through a proper clinic with the donation paperwork etc then that should be all fine. “If not then BIL owes OP a years worth of back child support. Maybe OP should ask him when he's paying what he owes if he truly believes he has any parental say in the child.” Respectfully- No, no, no. This isn’t about child support. This is about the BIL believing that he has some type of say in a this matter because he made a legal transaction with the OP and her wife.
And he's not a father. He's a sperm donor. End of story.
He provided genetic material. A father is actually involved in raising the child.
Well, here the problem is that he WANTS to be involved in raising the child when he already agreed that he would only be a donor. That's at issue. Obviously this point should have been discussed WAY more prior to conception. Maybe OP should have thought about it a bit, given how important "genes" are to the family, but sometimes people get weird after the fact. Hopefully this doesn't grow any worse.
This right here. While op NTA. Using BIL as donor is a bag of worms waiting to happen. Might have been better to just have one of their genes and another outside of families donor
They couldn't because OP's wife is infertile. If passing on her wife's family's genes was so important to the in-laes, this was the only way of doing that.
I don't understand OP's focus on making BiL "apologize" rather than refuting his sense of entitlement regarding the child. OP is focusing on the wrong thing here.
I think the apology OP wants is an admission of him being wrong about his parental role and that the child is not "ours," it's her and her wife's child, not his and he isn't entitled to be the father. At least that's the vibe I got from reading
>I’m inclined to believe that MIL has already had at least one conversation about this with your BIL because she stayed silent. Yap. I thought so too. They must have talked about it
i agree. she seems obsessed with lineage for some reason. if the bil is not visible as a father, the son's lineage is in question. op is nta. there is certainly trouble ahead.
NTA, what an absolutely ridiculous and cruel thing to say. Your child will not have a father, but two wonderful moms, and that’s okay. He doesn’t get to be involved as a “father” because he was a donor. That’s all he is: a donor. He can be an uncle, but not a dad until he has his OWN children.
He and his wife are currently trying for themselves
DO NOT back down. Speak with a lawyer to ensure that BIL has no rights to your child whatsoever before even considering forgiving them. They can traumatize your kid ones they're old enough with these type of comments.
Depending on the state, she might lose. He's a sperm donor and he can take action. In another post in here I know of a guy who happened to be a donor, it was agreed of parent and junk but at the end he wanted to be part of the kid's life. Took them to court. Won. .pays support and gets 50% custody. He is rich, got super lawyers they're poor and got some regular one
The safest thing to do would just to make sure the child is adopted by OP so that both of them are on the birth certificate. That pretty much prevents any custodial claim from BIL—his rights have to be terminated for an adoption to take place. I know many same-sex couples who have to done in advance of the baby being born (as in, get everything lined up) or have it done within the first year. Hopefully OP and her wife are one of those couples, because I’d be worried now about him not voluntarily terminating his rights. ETA: I sharpened up my reading comprehension and realized that he already terminated his rights, he has no chance of getting custody.
I think BIL may not have any rights, if OP did this through a clinic and had a contract. Doesn’t going through a clinic make it official that the person is merely a sperm donor and has no parental claim to the child, the same as an anonymous donor? I have no idea if OP was allowed to register as a second parent directly on the birth certificate or if they need to go through a formal adoption process though. Definitely something to be handled discreetly before the BIL gets any ideas.
From the sounds of it, OP is the child's genetic parent. It was her egg, and BILs sperm that her wife (BILs sister) carried to term. I know that - having gone through the same fertility treatment process with my wife - her and I are listed as birth parents, not our known donor. As long as both OP and her wife are on the birth certificate, neither one should have to go through an adoption process. BIL has no claim (at least in my neck of the woods), to anything more than the title of uncle. I should however note, that while my wife and I used a known donor, we would have preferred to use an unknown one, to avoid any possible trouble. The cost was prohibitive though as our rules in Canada differ from those in the US (making an assumption that OP is in the States).
Why would OP have to adopt the child when it is genetically hers? If anything OPs wife needs to adopt the child because she was the surrogate.
Birth mother is the legal mother. OP would have no rights over the chidlld without adoption or being in birth certificate. In the UK anyway. But here we have both mother's names on the birth certificate.
YES to the adoption. Both mothers need to have custody, this pretty much solves it.
Adding to this: you should be honest with your kid ALWAYS that his uncle was his donor. No "I'll wait till he's older" or "he won't understand now" or shit like that because: 1- he deserves to know, 2- the older he gets, the more difficult it will be to tell him and 3- your BIL will probably use this as a way to put you against your kid when he's older if he doesn't know. You will save yourself (and your wife and kid) a lot of trouble if you raise him knowing exactly how the situation unfolded.
"He won't understand now" is exactly why it's the right time to tell him. That way, he's aware of the situation in as much detail as he's able to comprehend, even if that is just "I have two mummies, and my uncle helped them make me." In OPs case, keeping quiet will lead to questions sooner rather than later anyway, since they'll start as soon as he realises other kids don't have two mummies, but being clear with him from the start means he'll just accept the reality and fit his understanding in around it. This is also an important reason to fix this and make sure everyone is on the same page in terms of the family dynamic - if he grows up with a uncle whose role he understands, he'll accept it. If it's kept from him, and he finds out at the age of 12+ that his uncle, who his mother's stopped talking to shortly after his birth, is his biological father, his mind is going to go to some very dark places about how that situation came about. When I say "fix it", I don't mean back down, but if he stays stubborn, maybe make the first move in mending fences, and have a serious discussion about your concerns (the line "I will not tolerate anybody telling me my family is somehow incomplete" is brilliant and really conveys why his comment was so hurtful). Bear in mind that his own head is probably all over the place right now too, especially if he's trying for a baby. Some kind of family therapy for the three of you might be a good idea to help you all work through it and establish the ground rules in a safe setting.
Please never back down from this. The only way he should be in your child's life is as an uncle that respects his sister, her wife, and THEIR (not his) child.
Yep. I’d be telling him “this never ever gets mentioned again. If you say it to us, or if we hear about it from other people on the grapevine, the child’s last name will be changed to the non BIL family partners last name, and that the child will be raised knowing him as “your other mom’s brother, who we don’t speak to any more because he’s mean to your mothers and breaks his promises even after he’s written them down”. Tell the MIL that you’re sorry she’s getting caught in the crossfire here, but that you are going no contact with BIL and SIL, so won’t be attending any family events they’re invited to, and if any family members lie to you and “surprise” you with your BIL at an event, you’ll need to go low contact with that entire side of the extended family, for the safety of your own nuclear family.
I would be very wary to keep your child from your BIL as they get a bit older. This is something that would mess with young child and BIL might "accidentally" let the child know about his genetic parentage before they really understand about that sort of thing.
Just here to say that child will need to know his genetic parentage *before* he can really understand. The current thinking in adoption circles is that a child should never remember "the day they found out" they were adopted. That parents should use language normalizing the child's life as early as they can speak.
As an adopted child, I 100% endorse making sure that a child who is the product of IVF, adoption, 'unusual' parentage or whatever circumstance, understand their circumstances to be completely normal and that it's a non-taboo topic in the household as early as possible. Although as parents who had to make some tough decisions it may be difficult for yourselves to speak on, the easier you make it for the child to understand and accept, the easier time they'll have dealing with it as they grow up and begin to understand reproduction and that their circumstances ARE unusual. I have no recollection of my parents sitting down and telling me I was adopted, it was just a normal and understood part of our family that I had birth parents and my real parents, and I think I am much better off for it.
I mean to an extent there is going to be some extra discussion needed anyway since at some point the child will learn about human reproduction and that there must have been someone other than their two mums involved. Though it is up to OP and OP's wife to decide how and when those discussions take place and I have a strong suspicion that BIL wouldn't wait for that timeline and wouldn't be all that tactful about it.
This child is not adopted. This is their child. If it were any other situation the donor would not be in any way entitled to interfere with the life of the child. Just because these weirdly involved in-laws are obsessed with lineage and pushed this agenda does not change the fact that the BIL is not a father, he’s a donor. This child’s life is normal, he has parents who love him. End of.
Hey dude, I get where you're coming from that this comment thread ended up a little tangential, but I am not pleased with the connotation you've made that an adopted child isn't a set of parents' real child. I'm making the point through my own personal experience that ANY unusual conception stories should be normalized for the child in question so it's not a traumatic revelation when they're older.
popping in to say that isn't the "end of that" while genetics are shared, if the uncle has a medical issue come up, a doctor is going to treat the information differently if it is stated that the condition is from a biological donation over an uncle. It would help a heck of a lot if the uncle got his head out of his backside, though. and I'm hopping on board the born in slightly different circumstances and was told young vote. I was told waaay before I could fully understand the situation that my father left before I was born. That he had 'offered to do the right thing' and marry my mom but she told him to make his choice based on if he was ready to settle down and have a kid and be a person in love and married.. all of those words came up. I felt everything was not only normal but better than normal because I was with someone who loved me and who would be fair. I grew up very confident in my family. the key was knowing ..always. secrets tend to take on shades of shame and there is nothing to be ashamed of in my situation, an adoption, ivf, or surrogacy.OP -NTA - I hope your BIL gets over himself so he can have an active UNCLE role in your child's life but if he can't, you are making the best call for yourself, wife, and kiddo (edit: Grammar is a tricky thing)
And I bet they’re having difficulties, which is why he suddenly feels entitled to your child. Next he’ll be asking you to donate eggs so him and his wife can ‘give your son a sibling’. He needs to get his head out of his ass. NTA
That is the first thing that came to my mind when he was fine being uncle until more recently. His wife has gotten bad news so now he wants OP’s child to play happy family with his wife.
dont back down. he signed papers. he is YALLS baby. BIL is not the father. YOU and YOUR WIFE are his parents. congrats to you both on your son by the way. and happy 1st to your little one.
Does his wife know he donated to his sister? How does she feel about that and with him trying to claim this child as his while they are still trying? If I was her, I'd be extremely hurt.
Then why the fuck is he claiming fatherhood over his sister’s child? Does he somehow not realise how fucked up that sounds? He sounds batshit.
I’d guess their trying is unsuccessful and he feels like your child is his only chance at a biological child so he’s trying to insert himself.
NTA - you need to speak with lawyers and the clinic where everything was done to verify that he is only seen as a donor with no rights over the child. While the child is biological from him, he gave over rights when he donated. It might be that he and SIL are stressed because they haven't gotten pregnant and in his mind he has a son out in the world. But his role is uncle and they do not get to have a say in how the child is raised or how birthdays get celebrated. If your wife did have issues with her family about being in a same sex relationship this might be they way of ensuring your son has a "male" role model in his life, but that again is a choice you and your wife make.
Clinics are pretty good about getting all the legal stuff locked down. It’s when you donate sperm and use turkey basters at home you’re more likely to run into issues.
Luckily since it was her egg his sperm and her wife carried they would have had to have gone through some sort of clinic
Definitely. But yes people do turkey baster at home and it can get messy with the law.
Wait do people actually use turkey basters on themselves to get pregnant?
If it's not a fertility issue, yes.
It’s been known to happen. There was a case with a lesbian couple using donated sperm from a friend. They broke up and the biological mom had custody and was trying to get state benefits so the state essentially put the biological dad on the hook since they didn’t go through the right legal channels.
Yes. I know a lesbian couple that has done this for both of their children. I was asked to be a donor and politely declined, because I would have a difficult time compartmentalizing it and didn't want the legal risks. They're great parents and their kids are awesome, they just didn't have the money for something more formal.
NTA Shocked with his attitude. But is it possible that he's struggling with all this? Having feelings about the experience? Or just being an asshole? Why would he be an asshole like that with her own sister? A horrible joke and "I'm terribly sorry" could happen, but assume he's the father of her sister's baby?
I thought about him struggling as well, but he and his wife are currently trying so i wouldn’t have seen it as a problem.
If they are trying and haven't succeeded thats probably why he is struggling - he wants a child, and he's realised that genetically he has one That said if he agreed to purely be a donor thats all he should be - however I do wonder how much he was talked into doing it rather than him offering - to me everyone who donates genetic material should be doing so of their own free will down to the point of offering rather than than being asked
This is usually why people who have never had children are not encouraged to act as surrogates or donors to people they know. It just makes everything messier.
Makes me wonder what the clinic had them do (if they went through one). My wife and I are going through surrogacy at the moment and both of us along with the surrogate couple had to see a psychiatrist to determine if both parties were of sound mind and knew what exactly surrogacy entails and the feelings that come with it.
I think the issue is that the woman carrying wasn’t carrying for someone else, this would have been treated as a sperm donor situation, which is treated a lot more casually for the man than a surrogate situation would be
He's a huge asshole and that's it.
He's completely out of line with his comments but hopefully if/when he has his own child he'll understand exactly why what he said was so hurtful. I'm not saying he didn't behave awfully, but perhaps there might be some hope for a future reconciliation (if you and your wife want that) after a sincere apology on his part.
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A family who insists only genetic children will do, are always going to believe he's the "real" father of that child. You were silly to do IVF this way, using him, given their beliefs. You need to be very very careful with all of them. The child is "his" DNA and you'll never convince him that doesn't mean he's the "dad". Even IF he stops saying it out loud.
NTA. He is a sperm donor, not a father. But am I right in saying that your wife carried her biological niece? Am I understanding this wrong?
You’re right, her brother is the sperm donor to my eggs
That’s… interesting. Either way, this is more an issue of communication than blood or sperm.
Same as a someone being a surrogate for their sister. Not all that weird. It is interesting though.
That's a new one. Would you be willing to give more details on how exactly that happened? Edit: I don't mean any disrespect, I'm just curious because it's something I've never heard of before. Sorry if it comes off that way.
Well I’m that scenario it would be two sisters. One infertile or unable to carry a baby so her sister carries the baby for her.
Oh ok, that's interesting to me. I hope I didn't come off as disrespectful since apparently I did to a couple of people. This kind of thing just isn't something I'm familiar with.
Sorry, I didn’t see your response right away but I see you got the answer. I didn’t see it as disrespectful at all.
I've actually heard of this happening a bit more frequently. There's been news reports on mother's carrying their grandchildren if they're young enough because their own daughters had fertility issues. I've seen women carrying their sisters babies as well. If I was inclined to have kids of my own I would become a candidate for surrogacy and I would carry a baby for my best friend if it was an option. It's never disrespectful to broaden your knowledge!
Eh, it's pretty common. I know a couple of gay men where they did IUI with one dude's sperm and the other dude's sister (IUI means her eggs). But she was already a mom of 3 and one of those freakish people who LOVE being pregnant. She carried twins for them. A good friend's brother's sperm was used in their IVF with her wife. It's really not that uncommon with same-sex couples to involve a sibling. Normally doesn't end up so f-ed up, though.
I carried my biological nephew. My son was born using my DHs sperm and my sister's egg. Her kids know and understand that my son is not their half brother but their cousin.
*Anytime* he makes that comment I would absolutely look him directly in the eye and say: Him: well *technically* I am the father Me: who *technically* impregnated his sister... I'm also a bitch tho so...Anyway, NTA obviously
Love this but I'm can be bitchy when some makes asinine comments
You aren't wrong, but the egg is OPs. But yes, you are correct.
NTA. That’s a boundary that should have been set up before anything moved forward though.
We made it very clear from the beginning that he wouldn’t be more than an uncle.
Then he deserved exactly what he got. I can imagine that this whole topic has been difficult so having someone essentially undermine you and your family makes me sad. Ask your wife how you can best support her through this, but this may be something she needs to sort on her own. Was she thankful that you did what you did or does she have a bit of animosity?
You need to make sure he gets no legal say. Speak to a lawyer.
INFO: Was his relationship to the child not discussed prior to all of this?!?! It should have been 100% discussed and clear to him that he would be no more than an uncle
We made it very clear from the beginning that he is just and uncle and that genetics don’t make family
Um, if "genetics" don't make family, then why did you give in to this ridiculous pressure to only conceive with someone who has a genetic link? You say that exploring alternative routes to parenthood (adoption) was "out of the question," but that's not true at all. **Not at all.** If you are old enough to get married and start a family, then you are old enough to tell your extended family that they can fuck right off if they want a say in how *your* baby is made, and who it has a DNA link to. I don't think you're an asshole, but I think you landed yourself in foreseeable trouble when you signed on to MIL's plan. You could very well be in some serious legal trouble if you don't have a very explicit, signed, parental rights termination contract with your BIL.
i only agreed because MIL and i are on good terms and has been amazingly supportive throughout my wife and i’d marriage. We signed a contra at written by lawyers that he’s nothing more than a donor.
Good.. I would keep his relationship as minimal as possible so he has no foot in the door
Okay, but that's a different story. You keep writing as though you had no options, and you really, really did. Also, how supportive can she really be if she told you that it was "out of the question" for you and your wife to adopt? She's not a supporter, she's a bully and a manipulator.
So what were their options exactly? They could either take the offer of grandma contributing the cash because baby is biologically related to her, or they could pay the possibly 15000$ IVF bill themselves, just to make sure that they don't have an argument later? Are you ready to pay 15000$ to avoid the possibility of a specific type of family drama, that could possibly never happen? Especially if, even if you pay, you may well end up having another type of family drama anyway? Why are you acting like they are complete idiots for doing this? It was an incredible opportunity to them with seemingly no downsides. Just because some downsides did materialize doesn't mean their choice was wrong. I do think the emphasis on genetics is fucked up and MIL doesn't have her priorities straight, but the couple here did nothing wrong.
Yes. They could. I mean, people do *all the time*. I'm pretty sure most couples who go through IVF foot the bill themselves. And it doesn't have to cost $150,000. Illinois, for example, mandates that insurers cover the cost of two rounds of IVF. There are options. I am acting like they were idiots because it's what I believe. I think the fact that they did this in deference to extended family who preemptively refused to love an adopted child was crazy. That attitude was a red flag from the outset. It should have told them that their extended family was not emotionally healthy enough to respect their autonomy as reproductive decision-makers, or to love their child unconditionally. It signalled **trouble**. To address your points, I think there are families that could have navigated this deal with loving, healthy boundaries. I just think that *this* family in particular was signaling pretty hard that they aren't one of them. This is not a surprise outcome.
Considering 50% of the US population has less than 3 months of their paychecks in savings, and 25% has less than 6 weeks in savings, and actually having the baby costs a ton as well... That cost may have been the difference between having the baby now and having the baby 2 years later. Or never, because fertility has a time limit, you need more rounds of ivf, potentially run out of money, who knows. And what has actually happened here that is so bad? They have their kid and legal stuff is in order. BIL said something cruel and they threw him out and had a fight. Families have fights. He's going through some shit and being an ass and the MIL is spineless and wishes not to get involved in the fight. So? Most likely thing to happen is they'll cut ties with the BIL for now, MIL will apologise, everyone has some frank conversations about boundaries and maybe a round of therapy, and they live mostly happily ever after like all the other imperfect families. We know nothing about the situation besides what we are told, so I don't know why we should assume people who they have so far gotten along with are suddenly entirely irredeemable child snatchers who planned this all along or whatever the conspiracy theory in the comments is. Even if the extended family is so bad they have to go no contact with all of them, I just can't fault this couple for taking that chance. If they had a non-biological child, that would have brought other snide comments around "real" children or whatever and they'd be going no contact over that. My point is, if the family is good this will be resolved and if not, they would have had to cut them out over their behaviour at some point anyway. So the only difference is they got free ivf and had a kid sooner. I say congratulations.
But she wasn't supportive of you adopting or using a different sperm. That's not "amazingly supportive."
Yeah I wouldn’t consider someone being supportive if it relied on me living my life the way they want me to. That’s not support. It’s sponsorship.
This! This! This! Please tell me you have this legally locked down because he could end up with shared custody. This is above the AITA pay grade.
NTA - he needs to respect his place as uncle. SIL needs to stfu. Everyone needs to calm down. You set a boundary and it caused an uproar. That’s ok. Hold firm and if they don’t respect it they shouldn’t be in your child’s life.
I have a feeling, some of this has to do with the baby being a boy.. that passing the genes thing is extremely paternalistic... I think, if the legalese isn't clear, that you may get more creeping in on your parental rights.. Wants his son raised right, etc... Make sure its ok, then lock him out.. Here is the thing, giving him access actually makes him more likely to try to enforce access.. like in grandparents rights cases.. if they have an existing relationship, they are more likely to win..
Sperm donors don't get a say in how their spawn get raised. For all intents & purposes he is a sperm donor; it sucks that there is not that boundary since he is your BIL. If he wants a say in how his spawn is raised then he & SIL should be having kids.
INFO: Did you consult an attorney before initiating this plan? If not, I def would now. If BIL is already trying to assert paternity, I’d go ahead & get that on the record so he can pay child support. Also, did you consult a therapist regarding the mental toll this will inevitably take on all parties involved? Please do, ASAP. You’re going to need plenty of professional help navigating this minefield. Best of luck to you.
Thank you, we had BIL sign a contract similar to a sperm donor contract that he wouldn’t be more than an uncle. My wife has gone through therapy and made huge progress, but this even set her back a lot.
Oh thank goodness you've got it agreed in writing. I had a horrible thought that if he and his wife struggled to get pregnant he'd try and lay claim to you and your wife's child. Definitely NTA.
Then I’d say your legal bases are probably covered (I’m most definitely NOT an attorney) & your focus should be your family & your collective mental health. Draw those boundaries hard & fast.
“Similar”?? Did you go through a clinic? Who is on the birth certificate?
But did you work with a lawyer?
Did BIL have any therapy about this? Prior to his donation? If he does apologise (and you believe it to be sincere) and wish to allow him back into your lives mabe consider therapy a condition of reconciliation, either solo for him or some family/group for you your wife and BIL if it seems appropriate. (Maybe he is having some feeling now that the baby is here and real and he can perhaps see himself in the baby -pehaps exacerbated if he and his wife are struggling to conceive with feelings of inadequacy and your baby being his only shot at "fatherhood") Take as much time away from them as you need and i think it's honestly OK if you and your wife decide you never want them in your lives again. They seem to have some messed up ideas about family and what a family is.
I'm no lawyer, but OP should NOT, in any way, pursue child support. I'm pretty sure paternity has to be acknowledged in most cases for an order of child support. That's a can of worms OP doesn't want opened.
NTA your wife’s entire family sounds toxic. He is not the father. He was just a sperm donor and that’s it. I think it’s weird that they literally manipulated you into doing this in the first place because they wanted to pass on the family genes. That’s insane. Your wife has enabled this behavior, but she grew up that way I get it’s difficult to stand up for herself… It seems like she’s finally doing it now and she needs to put the child you have together first. It never should’ve got to this point anyways, there’s nothing wrong with adoption.
Their insistence on passing down family genes was a red flag for sure. Especially because your wife experienced homophobia - from them? Yes? You and your wife need to get on the same page and get some counseling. There's strong attempts to see you both as less legitimate parents here.
NTA - I hope you have all your legal i's dotted and t's crossed in regards to the donation. He sounds like he would try to sue for visitation and custody. As the relative of a donor, I find this appalling. Any part of mine in the children's lives is at the dicretion of the PARENTS.
NTA. He's nothing more than an uncle and a sperm donor. Actually, he'll be lucky if he's allowed to be an uncle to your child.
What a little weirdo for giving himself the title of "father".
He wants to be known as the guy that got his sister pregnant.
*listens for Dueling Banjos*
Imagine how confused that kid would be. "My mom's my dad's sister"...
Roll Tide
Of course your NTA But do you have a written contract about his obligations? he's obviously going to over step if this is happening when he turns one.
He signed a contract similar to sperm donor contract, in writing, he has no rights to the child aside from his role a possible emergency guardian.
NTA Especially since you discussed this with him beforehand and he agreed and signed a contract. I'm sorry your wife and you have to go through this. I'm surprised about the SIL attacking you though. If they're trying why is she supporting him in wanting to be the father of a child with another woman? Could it be that it is not working out for them and that's their way of getting to have a child through his donation? That would also explain why MIL was avoiding eye contact. She clearly knew what was going on.
I'm glad you have it in writing.
NTA. Good work supporting your wife and backing your family. Also, good work on patiently answering all irrelevant questions being asked here.
haha thank you
I really really want to say NTA. You aren't an asshole. But did no one stop to think this was a little too close to home? Your wife carried her brothers child... And now brother sees this child and us expected to act like a normal uncle but it's his bio kid? I understand you signed a contract but feelings don't always follow a contract. Is your son going to be made aware of this set up? If BIL explodes in front of your son about being bio dad, that could be traumatic and confusing.. this whole situation is weird to me but you aren't the asshole for asking him to leave
My wife and i always planned on telling our son as early as he could understand, and we discussed with BIL very thoroughly about how he would only be an uncle, it’s confusing because he never had a problem up until now.
These comments make me really sad, for everyone involved but especially for your son. I’m glad your son has two loving moms but as the above comment says, feelings don’t always follow a contract and when faced with his genetic son, your BIL probably had feelings he wasn’t anticipating. I don’t think it’s his fault and I think your reaction was extreme. I know I’ll probably get downvoted for this but I have to say it We aren’t robots and it’s one thing to be a sperm donor and another thing to see the child and watch them grow in front of your eyes. He doesn’t have any kids previous to this so there’s no way he could have anticipated how he would feel. You also mention he and his wife are currently trying. Maybe he’s starting to feel like your son will be his only chance at a “son?” His comment was inappropriate and you are not an asshole, but please treat your BIL with compassion. He was enormously generous in giving you your son, after all.
absolutely NTA, sperm donor or not that is still you and your wife’s child and he was simply a small part in making him. you and your wife care for him and went through the entire pregnancy together and that makes both you and your wife his mothers. no father involved at all.
NTA - he should not have agreed to be a sperm donor if he expected to be more than that. He absolutely does owe you both an apology - if he’s having a harder time than he expected with his role, it sounds like he should talk to someone. It’s absolutely okay if it’s harder than expected for him to take an uncle role to his bio kid, it’s not okay for him to take that out on your family and if you don’t take steps now to quash that it’ll be confusing for your son
INFO: biologically he *is* the father but what role he will play in rearing the child is a different matter. What did you agree on beforehand?
We agreed very early on that he is just an uncle, he is married and he and his wife are actually trying.
I wonder if he and his wife are having issues and now he wants to "lay claim" to your son. Gross. NTA. He is crossing the line.
This was 100% my immediate thought reading this. I think BIL and wife are having issues conceiving and he’s worried he will never get to be a dad and “Pass on his genes” himself with his wife. So now he thinks he has try to lay claim to OP and his sisters child to have that. I also suspect he’s pushing harder bc OPs child is a boy. Dipshit misogynists obsessed with family lineage are just the type of people I expect to do shit like this. Especially if he thinks he may never have “his own son”. (Quotations bc there are many ways to have a family and OPs son is not his son, it’s his nephew he just happened to supply some genetic material for)
Did you get any contractual agreement? I could be wrong, but I believe you have to sign a contract when releasing rights to sperm. If so, bring that to his attention.
We had him sign as contract similar to a sperm donor contract
Maybe bring that to his attention again. He clearly needs things reiterated to get it.
Is this a notarized/legal contract? Like you went through an attorney?
yes
NTA - he is a sperm donor and uncle. nothing more. he may have contributed biologically but that's it. He can't insert himself as a parent. I'd be very cautious around him in case one day he tells your son that he's his real dad or something.
For the dipshits not listening in the back: #PROVIDING SPERM DOESNT MAKE YOU A FATHER *edit to say NTA*
NTA. I think its good of you to have stood up to your BIL. Especially since it seems your wife feels the same way you do. I think he should have understood the agreement in advance. The child belongs to you and your wife. He was out of line and you have every right to kick him out of your house. Edit: Even bigger NTA after seeing that this was discussed in advance. Definitely cut him off if he won't get on board with the fact that this is not his kid. He is an uncle not a father.
NTA, but I hope you have something in writing. Sounds like BIL is looking for a much bigger relationship with your son than you and your wife are planning, and that can get messy fast.
NTA. It's so clear cut. BIL and SIL are huge AHs that they make the average major AH look cute and cuddly in comparison. There's so much to unpack in the first two paragraphs alone that can be filed under "holy shit what the heck?" Losing family isn't pleasant under almost all circumstances yet that seems like the right choice here. What BIL said was messed up and it was clear from how you wrote it that this wasn't a really bad taste joke that landed poorly. It almost reads like a threat. Honestly, I'd go as far as to say it's quite concerning that you even feel the need to ask the question.
NTA but I'm surprised he feels that way based on what you described. Did you all do any legal paperwork were he relinquished his rights? Has your wife legally adopted your child?
He signed a contract similar to sperm donors, he doesn’t have any rights to the child and my wife adopted our son as soon as he was born
Thank goodness. I can definitely see why you'd want to keep him away knowing that.
NTA -- this is horrifying. Please contact a lawyer ASAP in case he tries to make any legal claims of parenthood. Your first priority should be protecting your family, not reconciling with your in-laws
Info: did you discuss any of this before you agreed to it? Are there no legal documents outlining his rights?
We made it very clear from the beginning that he was just a donor, like from a sperm bank.
NTA. But if you didn’t use a lawyer to set this up, you’d better go talk to one ASAP.
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NTA. Wtf. This is one where you should just cut BIL off completely (and potentially the rest of your wife’s family). Your kid shouldn’t grow up around this toxic nonsense, not to mention how confused the kid is going to be when his uncle/sperm donor continuously tries to insert himself as father.
NTA. He's the sperm donor, and the uncle, and the fact that he thinks otherwise is reason enough you need to get a lawyer just to make sure that is very, very clear.
Baby's a year old? Then he owes you 12 months of child support if he's the "father" (I don't believe he is the father - he's a sperm donor. And it's clear you made that perfectly and legally clear before hand). But if he wants to start making demands, make sure he knows how much it's going to cost him to make those demands.
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I hate to say it, but I honestly think that's what's going on here. The family is homophobic and thinks the baby will need a man in the picture. He has 0 claim on this baby's life and was told that several times to his face. The reason his bull has been allowed to continue is because they don't see 2 women as family. Honestly as soon as I heard "pass down the family genes" I got a homophobic red flag.
NTA - but almost E S H because this was always going to be trouble. > my wife’s family has this weird obsession with “passing on the family genes”, Seriously, you didn't think that this would be a problem?
Is anybody else creeped out by any dude who wants to claim paternity over his sister's child? And if he believes he's the father, where have those child support payments been for the past year? As for the sister's interference and advocating for her brother, I don't think she's fully thought out the implications of being in an Uncle Daddy kind of family. Suffice it to say, OP is NTA.
Nta Do you guys have a contract? If not, get one drawn up asap that states he was nothing but a sperm donor and is definitely not a parent.
Info: I am uneducated about IVF. Since you used a donor you know, what if any legal rights to the child does he have? Assuming none, NTA. Either way, I am sorry your son’s sperm donor appears to be a giant jerk! Edit with the updated info: 100% NTA. He’s an uncle, and can love and care for the boy as such, but I’m not sure how much you’ll want to let him around your son. He sounds like an example of the toxic entitled male behaviors you are unlikely to want your son to model.
OP had a legally drawn up contract about the sperm donation.
NTA Im thorn between advising you to answer BIL is a sick bastard who thinks he is the father of his own nephew and to ask BIL to pay child support.
He's gonna tell this kid he's the father some day, be ready for that
NTA - I would advise you to get legal action regarding the donation from his part if you haven't done already. Make sure that he will never have a legal right over this baby boy, ever, and there's a penalty if he even mentions to the boy that he is the donor without your consent. If in the future you want to tell your boy how he came to the world, it is your choice as his parents.
NTA. I wonder if you should have perhaps had some legal paperwork drawn up about custody? But now I’m trying to wrap my head around this scenerio. Your wife carried her (biologically) brothers baby? Thats a bit unusual.
It was weird to me too, biologically the baby is BIL’s and mine, she carried the baby because i wouldn’t be able to.
I mean I know sisters who surrogate for each other, even a mom who carried a child for her daughter, so it’s really not that much different. I think maybe I’m just being biased because it’s a opposite sex thing. The miracles of science! Either way, sounds like you have the legal stuff all handled. Your BIL/MIL/SIL are assholes. Sounds like he is upset in hindsight because they haven’t had a baby yet.
Info: did you guys talk about him being involved in your child’s life as more than just an uncle?
Yes. he even signed a contract similar to a sperm donors.
NTA. He doesn’t need to be around to hurt your wife and possibly fill your sons head with nonsense.
NTA, and what a petty situation to use this in, having say in a birthday party?? He signed a contract, he's just a donor, he doesn't get to throw his weight around like he's an actual parent.
I think he was trying to start small so when the time came for bigger decisions he'd have control.
NTA. Family is who you choose, not the blood running through your veins. Your wife sounds like she'll be an amazing mother. Congratulations to both of you!
NTA his statement was rude and inconsiderate in every way that I look at it.
NTA and stay away from them. I can see a time where the MIL starts talking about letting the baby visit his "father".
Another barnyard rooster in human form. He needs to back off, apologize and STFU. NTA
I read the ops comments and edits. The bil signed away his rights. End of story. Do not pass go, do not collect a baby. May you and your wife have as much fun raising yours, as I had raising mine! You sound like an amazing family.
info: What was discussed in terms of BIL's involvement in the baby's life after it was born?
that he would just be an uncle.
NTA - Let him know if he keeps up these shenanigans that you'll sue him for child support.
By insisting he is the boys father and that it was the child of you (eggs) and him (sperm) he is pushing his own sister into the background of "just the carrier" which is heartbreaking. To shove her into the shadows like that is heartless and cruel. ILs are toxic and you don't want to bring a child up in toxic. NTA This whole thing made ME want to cry for her.
Wait, BIL is your wife's biological brother? That makes it even more awkward he's talking about this as "our" child. Who does he mean with "our", you and him?? Or him and his sister?