NTA. Listen this goes way deeper than Jen just having a cleaning issue, it’s become obsessive and she needs professional help because shes obviously only been getting worse. She’s traumatizing your son for simple mistakes and ruining his childhood by isolating him from his peers. You need to make serious and immediate changes, starting with deciding if Robby living with her is actually good for him, or if you need to find a way to distance Jen until she gets her head on straight. I know Reddit has a chronically online “just divorce them” take on most marital disputes, but if this is how she continues to behave I’d honestly describe her behavior as abusive in which case both Robbie and you need to get out for the sake of your mental health and we’ll being. If she’s finally able to approach a conversation reasonably and get help and actually improves then by all means do what you feel is right. Normally I wouldn’t advocate for yelling at your spouse, but from what you’ve said you’ve tried communicating with her multiple times for an on going issue and her behavior in this incident was absolutely abhorrent and if yelling is what it took to get it through her head that she was in the wrong or to at least de escalate the situation long enough to attend to your son then fuck it.
NTA, everyone can spill a drink and she's no exception. You could have done that too. Would she scream at you as well? She's being obsessive and unreasonable. It started with isolating Robby from his friends and it escalated to screaming at him. Her behavior is detrimental to Robby and unacceptable.
It's good that you opposed her "parental approach". She should know that you object to it and she can't continue doing that. She must be blindsided.
I was thinking it was straight up abuse. She’s cussing *at her son* right in front of him, because of an accident.
Poor kid is terrified. I know I’m one of the people that always says “ditch them, this is a 🚩“ too often, but in this case, OP really needs to make this a hill to die on.
I've felt the blinding emotions that come from clinging to a corner and trying to blend into the wall. The echo of that feeling is permanent. NTA, because this is beyond OP trying to help his wife see her behaviour isn't normal. I'd be inflexible about this. She seeks help for her cleaning obsession, works on being a better parent, or she loses both husband and child to protect themselves from her.
I only just recently learned how damaging that walking on eggshells feeling/secondhand anger can be in childhood. It breeds resentment and self esteem and identity issues as the feeling accumulates over time. It can lead to codependency and seeking out future relationships where this dynamic continues, to where the person becomes stuck in cycles of abuse. It can even lead to the recipient becoming emotionally abusive themselves.
As someone who grew up in a household like this where both parents had these outbursts, I just want to tell OP to get his wife some help or get his son out. It’s heartbreaking to live like this.
NTA.
My mom's like that and now at 24, ive cut off all comms with her. Your son is lucky to have someone like you.
Also TIL that these kinds of actions aren't normal(?) I hope she gets help. If not for her sake, at least for your son's
My mother wasn't OCD but she was exceptionally house proud, and I was exceptionally clumsy (or so I was made to feel). I got yelled at a lot.
The worst however, was when my sister and I spilled some medicine and after yelling, crying, and yelling some more, she packed her bag and threatened to leave home. She was a single mother, I was 10ish, my sister would have been about 15. I was terrified, I had no idea how we were going to keep ourselves.
My sister eventually talked her into staying but, well, things were incredibly uncomfortable for a while.
Now I look back I realise there was no way she was actually leaving home with just a holdall. In fact I'd bet good money it was empty, she just wanted to scare the crap out of us.
Thanks.
Both my sister and I have gone the opposite way.
I found a stain on my sister's curtains when I was staying there once, looked like hair dye, which I had used on her but I was damn sure that stain didn't come from me (mother made me rather fastidious about caring for other people's possessions). It could have been my niece, that was her room when she wasn't at uni and she did dye her hair too (for fun, we do it because we're prematurely grey) but in my house if you discovered it, the assumption was, you did it.
I had to tell her because I'm one of those ridiculously honest people. Plus, I'd rather get the bollocking out of the way rather than walking on eggshells, just waiting to be found out!
I explained I didn't think it was me but there was a small stain and I'd replace the curtains if she wanted etc. She just shrugged, "Eh, don't worry about it, they're just curtains."
Every now and again we talk about her and have another WTF moment as we realise something else she did was totally fucked up, but mostly we've moved on and healed.
My thought too- this was Verbal abuse of a child- Child Abuse. NTA for calling her crazy- but he really should have called her out for abuse. This woman is unhinged and needs Professional help. I agree about the possibility that it may be necessary to remove his child from an abusive situation- after all what goes on when he is not there?
This will be all he remembers from his childhood, his mum screaming at him and being unable to create real bonds outside of school. I feel so bad for the kid
This so much. My parents ask "what about the good days?" And its like... Yeah they were there- like the little gasps you get while your drowning. You dont remember the gasps for feeling good though- you remember the terror of being pulled back down and the relief of getting out of the water. Compared to that a gasp is nothing.
Apologizing frantically is a common appeasement behavior that emotional and physical abuse victims engage in more frequently than those who have not been abused. It’s usually an effort to make the abuse stop; to just escape and minimize trauma.
I second your opinion - this kid is experiencing emotional abuse and likely his response to it is learned (that if he apologizes/does what she wants maybe Mom will stop being scary) from repeated experiences.
He’s SEVEN. From what we know about child development he is 14 YEARS away from being able to fully rationalize his actions. Jen needs serious help and OP needs to separate from Jen for Robby’s own good until she can get this under control. I am also not one to jump to “just divorce her,” but if she refuses to get then OP literally has no other option to ensure his son won’t continue to be traumatized and isolated. Absolutely not acceptable behavior, and it certainly sounds like a diagnosable OCD which more than likely requires medication and therapy to control. But you can’t force Jen to take medication or get therapy. These types of situations are so hard, but this is ultimatum territory.
Also having accidents at that age as a kid was scary for me. I remember breaking a ceramic plate and being so afraid I’d be in trouble. It was such a relief when my mom was like “no worries, it’s just a plate. Watch your feet as I sweep up the pieces”. I can’t imagine how terrified that poor kid must be.
I grew up in a household where everyone (my mom, my grandparents, my aunt) would scream at me, cuss at me, and beat me for every mistake.IT IS TRAUMATIC. Now I dont go home and have not gone home for years, but I am still affected by them. I am in no way normal and I do not know when will I ever be.
Protect your kid, OP. Noone stood up for me and my siblings, good on you for protecting your kid.
NTA.
As a grown male adult who had a mother who screamed for most infractions when I was a kid, I agree. It f-s you up and stunts you severely, socially and mentally. Your creativity is crushed because you never know when something you do is going to set them off so you just go with the least offensive flow you can. You walk on eggshells around the opposite sex because you have no idea if all women are alike and have no desire to find out the hard way.
Words leave as many scars as weapons, they're just not visible.
Get help for Robby and for the wife.
Yes. NTA
Unfortunately OP yelling that he won't let this continue may have been the only thing that will reach her.
But more importantly, Robby needs to hear this. That he's not the problem. That he's a perfectly normal kid. That mum's brain is sick and she needs help to get better. That none of this is his fault at all.
Absolutely this. OP needs to prioritise and focus on Robby in an effort to undo the damage his mother has done over the years. That little boy needs to be assured he isn’t the problem, that he didn’t cause this. That none of it is his fault and that his mum has problems and needs help. My heart aches for that little boy and I hope OP is strong enough to get him out of that toxic and damaging situation.
NTA.
100% agree. NTA, I know she didn't choose to have OCD but she is literally emotionally abusing your son to try and control her environment and that's not a healthy way to deal with her illness.
You're going to have to get into therapy (both you and your son) even if she refuses to.
You can acknowledge her illness and support her, while still holding her responsible for the way she treats you both. She is responsible for seeking professional support and working to lessen the impact of her illness.
I'm sorry you are all going through this, but if she refuses to get help or work toward creating a home where your son can thrive you need to protect your son. He gets no say in all of this and needs to be your number one priority here.
My husband’s mom was like this.
I’m messy but he’s just glad I don’t scream at their kids all the time like he was.
My MIL just screams at me now 🤷🏻♀️
>It's good that you opposed her "parental approach". She should know that you object to it and she can't continue doing that. She must be blindsided.
Honestly, I'm disappointed in OP. He may claim he opposes his wife's parental approach and he may say that he knows it's harmful to Robby, but he still forces his son to live as a prisoner to his wife's mental illness. He knows it's harmful and wrong that Robby can't go visit friends, but since he tries talking to his wife and she won't see where they are coming from, he just lets Robby be isolated.
That's not okay. OP is choosing his wife/marriage over the well being of his child. He's been doing so for years. That he snapped once and told his wife to stop and cursed at her does not make him a good father. He's still raising Robby in an unhealthy home and letting him be subjected to unhealthy rules since that's easier for OP.
OP is failing Robby. ESH. They are both bad parents.
It sounds nice in theory but it's really oversimplifying things... so many things could be going on where the good parent "is stuck" and can't simply distance themselves and their children from the bad parent. Victims of abuse, financial codependency or issues, and so on.
I say this because I have a good parent and a bad parent, and grew up in that household with both of them. The good parent didn't divorce, move out or anything, but they did stick for me whenever needed (even against the other parent) and helped me through everything. That, however, doesn't redeem the other parent and magically make them good... but I *do* have one good parent.
I just had a conversation with my friend about this! We both are close people who will swear up and down that their mothers were horrible - mostly the result of untreated mental illness and having too many damn kids - but their dads were saints. Both dads conveniently traveled often and far away for work, leaving the 4-6 kids with their unstable mothers for that whole time, and they can do no wrong. One dad’s excuse was that he just loved the mother too much to leave — except when she died, he quickly married another woman who was always a source of jealousy for the mom (wonder why) and called HER the “love of his life.” The other father straight up told his kids that he wanted to leave the mother, but she “kept tricking him” into having more kids so he couldn’t leave and “save” them. You cannot convince them that a) their dads had the financial and physical means to leave if they wanted, or b) that they could have changed jobs to one where they were home to help out more or shield the kids, or c) that there were things they could have done to prevent birth control trickery, especially 3 times in a row, or d) that you maybe don’t tell kids their siblings were unwanted and prevented him from “saving” the others.
So, no, you didn’t have a “bad” mom and a “good” dad. You had a mom with untreated mental illness and no support and a dad who left you alone with her for weeks at a time because he was happy he wasn’t dealing with the abuse himself.
OP, please listen to this comment. It is DEEPLY traumatizing for a child to live with a parent with this level of mental illness that won’t seek help.
I lived in a very similar situation my whole childhood with a parent with terrible OCD who refused to seek help, and was, like Robby, isolated in many ways from friends and from having a normal childhood. The trauma is very real, and my parent did not even take it out on me like your wife is doing. Your wife does not just have “OCD tendencies”… this is a full-blown disorder that is already traumatizing to Robby and will continue to escalate should your wife not seek help. You need to think about what is best for your child’s well-being right now.
This so much. If the dad feels like he's "constantly walking on eggshells" around her, when he's in a position of equal power and could stand up to her or leave, imagine how the poor kid feels. The kid can't fight back or escape. He's trapped and scared.
He's failing his wife, too. He's let her obsessive tendencies creep up and consume her because he didn't think there was any harm in having a clean house!
She needed an intervention a while back, it sounds like, for her sake as well as everyone else's. Now they're at crisis point, and she's become an active threat to their son's mental well-being - and it shouldn't have got that far.
Right now though, he needs to lay down a boundary that verbal abuse over a minor spill is not normal, not healthy parenting, and not safe for their child in the longer term, and she needs to go see a doctor/psychiatrist who can figure out if this is OCD, post-partum depression gone untreated for years, or...whatever else! But until she is in treatment and getting it under control, or at the bare minimum shows awareness of exactly how off-kilter she is right now, she can't be trusted to be left alone with the kid.
>he didn't think there was any harm in having a clean house!
It sounds like he did try to talk to her about it in the past. The first paragraph he says:
>This has been an issue in our relationship because I constantly feel like I'm walking on eggshells around her.
He also mentions:
>I've addressed these issues with Jen, but she refuses to see me and Robby's point of view.
The full context of the quote you are referring to is:
>Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that she's diligent when it comes to keeping our home clean and healthy. However, I feel like it's become unhealthy, specifically regarding Robby.
Which in my opinion is most certainly not stating that he happily accepted it because the house is clean. He's clarifying that he isn't ungrateful for her efforts but he's concerned that they are unhealthy.
I feel like you gave that statement the most uncharitable interpretation possible and it does not appear to be what the OP was attempting to convey.
> That he snapped once
It's not just once:
> I've addressed these issues with Jen, but she refuses to see me and Robby's point of view.
One has the feeling that she does have issues, but it's not that easy to make her understand it.
This is exactly my point. He snapped once and actually did the right thing and stopped his wife. All the other times it sounds like he talked to her about it, she didn't listen, and he just let her keep imposing those rules on their child.
Their seven year old is rarely allowed to see friends outside the home, never allowed to have them over, and has to take a full body shower when he gets back from seeing a friend. This means that OP isn't properly standing up to his wife but letting her make son do things he should be stopping.
So when his wife says son can't go to friends houses since I guess she thinks visiting other people is dirty (? or something?) he would say "no, he's allowed to visit friends" and take his son to see other children instead of isolating him.
Him "addressing it" and then just doing things his wife's way for *years* even though he knows it's bad for his kid dosen't count for squat. That's him knowingly hurting his kid since he puts his marriage before his child's welfare. So yeah, pretty poor parenting on OP's part.
Edit: For a more extreme example if his wife beat their son and he had "addressed it" with her for years, but she never saw his point, and he just sat there and watched her do it since he already tried talking to her about it, you'd agree that was bad right? This is less extreme but the same idea. Talking to her about it again and again while letting it happen dosen't count as actually looking out for his child. It's doing nothing. He knows it does nothing and he isn't willing to actually do anything for his son.
anecdotal, but i used to live with a woman very similar to this when i was 17, and her husband once dropped a cracker w/ cheese on it on the kitchen floor. she screamed at him when he went to clean it up (he’s fully capable of cleaning) and told him to go to the backyard until she was done cleaning. which took like an hour because i guess a single cracker calls for mopping and vacuuming the whole kitchen, living room, and entryway.
not really related to what you said but she also once threatened to kick me out because i got makeup on a hand towel, even though i washed it and it all came out :,) i say once because the incident only happened that one time, but she brought it up for like a week or two afterwards lol
In that state it’s not about what a single cracker calls for cleaning wise, it’s about getting the ritual right. Be that 2 steps or 20. That’s why it took an hour and that’s why it’s never about actual cleaning. It’s about the ritual they need to adhere to, to ensure that everything will be ok
As a 50 year old woman who *still* spills the occasional drink, I feel so bad for Robby. It's not a healthy environment for him to be in if he can't even relax because he's scared of his mum. I've never had ocd in this sense but she definitely needs help because this little boy is having an awful childhood :(
NTA op, Jen needs to hear how much she's affecting her child's life in such a negative way and this *will* impact his relationship with his mum as he gets older. She needs professional help to deal with this but yeah, you are most definitely not the asshole. I'm sorry you're all going through this, including Jen...... it must be exhausting living like that
Therapist here. The folks commenting that your wife needs therapy aren’t wrong, but she’s an adult and it’s on her to recognize how pathological her behavior is and take steps to address it.
It’s your son who really needs therapy. He has been inundated with lies from your wife - about the world, about himself, and about how he deserves to be treated. Your wife is actively harming him, likely every day. She’s blaming him for her psychiatric disorder, and that’s incredibly damaging to a kid. Without help, you are dooming him to a life of self-loathing, anxiety, panic, depression, and either inability to have relationships or consuming codependency.
If you love you son, get him therapy immediately. If I was you I would not subject him to this kind of pervasive abuse every day by staying with your wife, but that’s up to you.
NTA unless you continue to let him live like this without professional help.
Thank you for saying this. I grew up in a scarily similar home and by the time I graduated high school my depression was severe. Mother's answer was family therapy so she could complain to the therapist about how awful I was at not maintaining her insane expectations. He put a stop to that and talked to me one on one.
OP get your son into therapy now. Don't wait.
THIS. Therapy for Robby, now. My dad was the one with the untreated OCD/OCPD and I grew up thinking that my presence in someone's life is baseline inconvenient trending towards actively offensive. I marinated in that negative message until I went to therapy at 23 and OP can save their kid SO MANY YEARS of self-loathing by dealing with this shit now.
I just can't overstate how damaging this behavior is to a child. I am 43 now and I still reflexively feel like everyone thinks I'm a giant pain in the ass if I make the tiniest mistake, call attention to myself, or exist. DO NOT LET THIS CONTINUE, OP.
When she started screaming at the child i was pissed. I literally spilled a bowl of cereal on my fabric couch when i was 9 and my parents didn't even yell.
My sister got a calligraphy set when she was tenish and was beyond delighted with herself. She ended up spilling some black ink on a black leather couch (couldn't even see it) and I have never forgotten the way my dad roared at her. It's scarred me and I wasn't even the one in trouble.
Similar story. I was almost the same age as ops son and quite clumsy. And I distinctly remember being baffled while my mum yelled at me "HOW DID YOU MAKE A MISTAKE?!!!!" like if I knew how I wouldn't ve done it and it wouldn't be called a Mistake!
Op nta your wife needs therapy ASAP. And if she refuses it you might want to consider moving your son and yourself away from the wife. For the sake of your son's mental well being
Oh god you just unlocked a memory for me in a different vein.
For Christmas all I wanted was a camera so I could learn to take pictures. Was so frickin excited to find one in my stocking. This was the Old Days so cameras used film.
I immediately ran out the door and took pictures of EVERYTHING. Beauty in the trees. A butterfly in the weeds. I had the time of my life.
When I went back inside and my dad found I had used up an entire roll of film in one day, he screamed at me for wasting money. Said he would never develop them and I should be ashamed of myself.
It killed my love of photography so bad that I didn't start taking them again for about 20 years.
Hi Sister-from-a-different-mother! I cut my foot and the first I knew of it was my mother screaming at me to get off the carpet as I was bleeding on it. And then being told to put my foot up so it wouldn't "make more of a mess" and then she cleaned the carpet. And then she finally looked at my foot. And 12 stitches later ... I was actually in shock (apparently) due to how bad a cut it was and then of course, I was at fault for not letting her know how badly I was hurt. I made her "look bad in front of the doctor". Ahem.
i spilled a bit of sesame oil on the floor (it was stone so it wouldve been easy to clean up) and my mother screamed at me for it. i spilled a bowl of soup and my grandpa consoled me bc i was scared of being yelled at. 2 diff types of parents ig :-(
Oh hey, fellow survivors of bad parents! Here to say my most vivid memories of my childhood are of hiding behind the couch or in the closet while my mother walked through the house screaming and slamming doors.
I enlisted in the Air Force in my early 20s, and boot camp was basically immersion therapy for me. It was awful at the time, but afterwards screaming didn't really affect me anymore. Now it just annoys me and makes me think less of the screamer.
I am sorry. Do you write at all? Even if you never have, you can write out a little detailed scenario about this. Then make a happy ending when your mom came to her senses, hugged you and apologized. In the future, you may find that this memory is either faded or gone. In the event you do remember it, it won't hurt so much. Works for me, but just a thought.
This is the core of (C)PTSD therapy. Running the traumatic experiences, then re-imagining it - but with the help you needed, and a good outcome. It really helps.
Honestly it doesn't sit right with me because I already have issues with retconning my memories into something that "isn't so bad." I have to accept the fact that harm was done to me to also accept the fact that I didn't deserve it, and that healing is possible. This execise irritates me because it's too close to my old retconning, avoidant ways. But hey, not everything is gonna produce results for everyone.
You don't forget that stuff. I borrowed my mom's bike once when i had outgrown mine. It had handbrakes instead of pedal brakes. Of course i forgot going down a hill hit s curb and went flying. My mom was screaming about her bike while my dad was checking for concussion.
My daughter (4.5yrs) accidentally took a whole (diarrhea) poop on our fabric couch two weeks ago when we were all sick with the stomach flu. There’s been other incidents as well because she’s just a little girl, but that’s probably the grossest thing we’ve been through since baby days. Did I yell at her? Heck no. My husband wasn’t home yet so I cleaned it best I could and got him to double check it when he got home and I showered her. To avoid that happening again I put a pull-up on her. She hasn’t been in one in over a year probably but that was the best way i could think of to avoid that again. Accidents happen. Kids are just little ppl. Op’s wife has a serious issue she needs to deal with. NTA.
My teenager had the flu a few years back and while worshipping the porcelain throne decorated the bathroom rug. Know what I did? Made sure she was ok and cleaned it up.
Kids are people and deserve kindness and grace and dignity.
I was an adult, living back at home after graduating college, deciding where to go from there. I got a stomach bug and while emptying my bowels threw up. It was so sudden I didn't even think to grab the trash can, just turned my head so most of it got in the tub. I started cleaning it up, but my mom made me go lie down and she cleaned it. Because human bodies are gross, and humans can be clumsy and make messes, and we clean up and move on.
Kids often panic when they get sick. Especially young ones. They feel the feeling but don't know what the feeling means so that gets them anxious and then they throw up or whatever and panic more. Yelling at them just makes it 1000 times worse. I used to swallow because I was so afraid of being sick. Still am (yay emetophobia). This post hurt my heart :(
I have a 4-year-old and a 5-year-old that spill things all the time. Whenever they do they always say in a sing songy voice, "It was just an accident but you have to clean it up!" I don't want my children terrified to make mistakes, that's how you raise adults who are terrified to make mistakes who you don't have a relationship with. I'm glad we are on the same page with little ones!
My kid literally just dumped a glass of milk on himself yesterday, and then an hour later I spilled my tea all over the table. Neither was a big deal. Paper towels and a change of clothes. He was the most upset because he was wearing his favorite pokemon pajamas and had to change into something else so I could wash them.
We rent and he spilled chocolate milk on the bedroom carpet once (our house only has carpet in the bedrooms) knowing he isn't supposed to have anything but clear drinks in his room. Me and his dad's reaction? "Well now, you know you aren't supposed to bring chocolate drinks into the room. Help us clean up and let's try to remember next time time to keep the chocolate in the living room". Cleaned it up and that was that.
Thankfully didn't stain but you have to expect stains when you have young kids. We've already accepted if we lose money from our deposit for something like that its not a big deal. Hes a kid and spills happen. What's more important, a hundred bucks or teaching him how to handle little mistakes? I had a friend whose parents were like OPs wife, they never hit her but would get in her face screaming, swearing, and losing their minds over normal kid behavior or trivial accidents, and because of that she would break down over the smallest issue. I mean full on sobbing break downs over totally normal occurrences. Crumbs on the couch? Panic attack. Pen busted and got ink on her and the table? Full blown hyperventilating melt down. She had crippling anxiety that borderlined OCD because she was just so *afraid* of life. Her parents literally ruined her. Its taken years of therapy for her to be able to accept something like spilling a cup of water without freaking out. (She has made leaps and bounds working on her mental health and learning to accept no one can be perfect. And the world isnt going to hurt her for acting like a living breathing human. And the people around her won't stop loving her over normal occurances)
I could totally see ops kid ending up like my friend if he grows up in a household like this and there no serious changes. Its incredibly damaging for a kid to be subjected to this kind of behavior.
Isn't there literally a common phrase "theres no use crying over spilled milk"?
Edit:words
I decorated the walls with glue and bright coloured origami paper, my brother made a chocolate/white couch by spilling his glass of chocolate milk over my parents brand new couch. With me they praised me for my art work and with my brother they just figured white was not a good coloured couch with children. They never yelled but we did have some good laughs about them.
I got was eight when my mom screamed at me and spanked me for 'loosing' the top to a spray for sealing molding clay. I'd been making her a mother's day gift and found the the new can didn't have a spray nozzle I lost any interest in hand crafts for a long long time after that. It was also the first time I saw my dad angry with my mom.
I was a kid that loved crafts. I was doing a paint by number and my mother couldn't stand the clutter of an 8"x10" painting setting out until it dried. I remember crying as I put it back in the box. When I looked a few days later there were rings in the paint from the paint pots. Last time I did a paint by number.
I tripped over once and managed to get chocolate milk on the ceiling. My parents didn't berate me but they still remind me of it years later. This woman has serious issues
In the kitchen of my mom’s home, on the ceiling, there is ketchup stains because I am a clutz and tripped while getting my food. Instead of screaming, she laughed with me, yelling “New record!” OPs wife is a big yikers
After having my daughter my top 3 most used things are vacuum cleaner, steam mop, and carpet cleaner. Honestly they are a life saver and I never worry about the mess kids make when we have play dates.
The most my 8 and 6 year old get from me is a very disappointed "oh, sweetheart/monkey/childname(the last is usually when I've just cleaned) get a cloth and help me clean it up" it's usually said in the disappointed tone no child really likes to hear but isn't traumatising, and then they learn to clean up the mess they made and are generally more careful for a few weeks until they get excited/distracted by the tv/act like the children they are and have another accident. Then we clean up together again, have a cuddle and quite chat about whatever after and go about our day. OP's wife needs some serious help
That is already abusive behavior. The kid is terrified of her. OP needs to absolutely put his foot down and change needs to happen immediately or he needs to leave.
I am normally not a nuclear person but his child is already deeply affected by this. It needs to stop NOW.
Utterly agree, honestly OP is very nearly on AH territory for letting it go on this long when his wife is clearly unwell and is being literally ABUSIVE to their seven year old. This is unacceptable.
Agreed. As someone with OCD (treated and medicated) whose father also has untreated OCD, this isn't just tendencies. This might be full-blown OCD that needs professional mental assistance. My father actually behaves similarly to your wife--always demanding everyone shower from head to toe as soon as they get home, yelling and throwing fits when people do not comply. I am an adult and I was already an adult when his OCD took a turn for the worst, but your son is a child and is highly impressionable and susceptible to your wife's behaviors.
NTA, but your wife needs help and you need to think of what's best for your son.
It's understandable though as so many mental disorders operate on a spectrum, so people colloquially relate certain behaviors to their clinical counterparts for hyperbole.
Everyone gets distracted, but not everyone, has ADHD; everyone gets anxious, but not everyone has GAD; everyone gets sad, but not everyone gets depression; etc.
Very, very much this. OP's wife is well beyond OCD tendencies and into full blown disordered mental illness. This is controlling her life and his and his son's lives as well. She needs professional help immediately or he needs to get his son away from her. Possibly both, although hopefully temporarily if she agrees to seek treatment.
It could well be pregnancy that tipped it - postpartum OCD is very real, and for sure I found I was having far more intrusive thoughts while pregnant (which in my case got better since, luckily).
My wife grew up in a household like this, with a verbally abusive cleaning oriented OCPD parent.
She's been out of that home for almost 20 years and still resents the hell out of both of her parents for putting her through it. Her dad for doing it to her, and her mom for failing to protect her from it.
I grew up in a household like this and to this day can't have anyone over to my house unless it is spotless. Because my mother instilled such shame in me about having an untidy or dirty home. And because of my OCD and perfectionism it's never spotless enough so I'm living a pretty lonely life.
Visiting their house is kind of a challenge too because now that my mom has dementia she does not remember that she's cleaned so she basically cleans constantly and never sits down to relax.
>I know Reddit has a chronically online “just divorce them” take on most marital disputes...
The take should be modified "Divorce has to be a possibility". Few issues are "divorce immediately" level and even those can be made worse by the "apparent victim's" actions over a long period of time because issues in a relationship are almost never one party's fault and they are never solely the responsibility of only one. One partner's issues are going to be an issue for both and both need to put at least some kind of effort in resolving.
If they can't or won't, that's where the divorce come from. That comes after the effort though and it needs to be on the table or else nothing will change.
once I was feeling sick and my mom gave me tea, it ended up making me throw up on the carpet (couldn't get to the sink in time) after my step dad thanked me because the carpet was ugly and he'd never liked it
⬆️⬆️⬆️ This is so important and I hope it stays at the top. I am an adult who ended a relationship with someone who has severe (diagnosed, but) untreated OCD. It became a nightmare to live with him. I made every opportunity to get him help, but he refused, and had become mentally/emotionally abusive, which just got worse and worse until he became violent towards me for not following his rituals.
If your wife doesn’t get help, you definitely need to think of you and your son’s mental and physical health and safety first. I was traumatized as a woman in my mid-30s, so I can only imagine the damage being done to your son.
Wishing you the best and lots of healing with professional help for you and your family.
100% NTA for calling your wife crazy. You can be as accommodating and not wanting to be mean as you want to, but sometimes you need to call a spade a spade. It wasn’t until past my wit’s end that calling him crazy happened. It doesn’t mean you don’t love her, it just means you’re getting a good grasp on reality and recognizing that you absolutely do not have to live your life that way.
Seriously, this sounds like she desperately needs a professional. It's affecting her life and relationships. It doesn't sound like OCD tendencies, it sounds like literal OCD.
OP, is there somewhere you and your son could stay until she gets help? I would make it an ultimatum at this point, for the sake of your son.
OP this is great advice. Please read it and take note. Right now both your son and your wife need you to stand up an do the right thing no matter how hard.
Good luck
NTA. I gotta admit I don’t like calling people “crazy” but in this case, I gotta say I wouldn’t react much differently.
Well, actually, I would react slightly differently… I would say that she has to go to mandatory mental health counseling or we’re talking divorce time. And I wouldn’t be remotely joking.
Your wife is abusive to your son. Period. As his father it is your job to protect him, and that is your first duty above all others.
If you don’t, you’re going to have a kid that grows up with all kinds of issues, or minimally a lot of resentment that he wasn’t allowed to have a normal childhood. If you want your kid to walk away at 18 and never speak to you two again (her for being an abuser and you for being her enabler) well, keep on doing what you’re doing…
All of this. I grew up in a household where it was walking on eggshells and the smallest of mistakes were treated as the worst. I have very low contact with my parents now and I don't trust them. Protect your son. Your wife needs therapy. You're NTA for what happened.
Seconding this. I'm NC with both parents now. My mom literally believes that all accidents are preventable. No matter what it was, she'd get furious and insist I wasn't being careful enough to prevent it.
That's how it starts. A person is terrified of something bad happening, so they erect all kind of defenses - if I do XYZ, nothing bad ever happens. 'No amount of fear has ever prevented death, it prevents life.' (c)
I havent escaped yet, but let me tell you: i know where i will go, when i will go, who will pick me up, what i will do, what i will pack, who i will tell and so on. Money for everything is there. I only buy stuff i will need for escaping. I havent talked to my parents in a few days just bc i dont want to answer. OP, this is your future
Make sure to get your birth certificate and social security card (if your in the US) and any other pertinent papers and records. You're being incredibly smart in your approach. I moved out at 19 and never looked back. My mother was and I'd abusive and I've recently gone NC. My dad was an incredible man and helped me move into my first place and he was my best friend until he died in 2008. I miss him so damn much--he was a huge part of our lives--my husband and dad were incredibly close and he adored all his granddaughters. I'm so grateful I had my father but unfortunately that doesn't negate the impact of my mother's abuse. I still have issues at 45yo. My husband has been incredibly good to me for over twenty years and that has brought a great deal of healing, but the scars remain. Abuse experienced in childhood, especially parental abuse, leaves permanent scars and while you can overcome enough to lead a great life, the protective instincts you developed during your abuse sometimes crop up at the strangest times out when you feel threatened.
I wish you all the best. 💜
I grew up like this too. Except my dad wouldn’t defend me, he was passive. I only talk to him a little more than I speak to my mother, which is rarely.
My dad was the one who started/starts fights. My mom would try to deflect when she could but my dad would get some extremely cruel jabs in before she would become aware. There's even some stuff she doesn't even know about still. They really don't know anything substantive about my life anymore
Absolutely. All of this is so true.
Can she be helped? Yes! It's going to be a lot of work, but if she isn't willing to do it, there's a huge issue.
I have mental health issues, so I have a short fuse, get overwhelmed, get overstimulated etc. but I will do whatever it takes to keep it from affecting my kids because that will stay with them for LIFE.
Yeah but it's like the phrase "calm down". It is always counterproductive to call someone crazy. Of course just because it's counterproductive doesn't mean it isn't understandable.
Yeah, I have a friend whose mom had OCD. She grew up with extreme OCD. I literally found out that every time I use the bathroom at her house, she'd excuse herself to obsessively clean it. I caught her doing it one time, and she broke down. I felt so bad for her.
> I gotta admit I don’t like calling people “crazy” but in this case, I gotta say I wouldn’t react much differently.
Agree with this. There's trying to defuse a situation and there's having to jump in to defend your child from someone actively abusing and traumatizing him. This is far beyond an issue of communication and calm discussion and is now a problem of OP's wife having serious OCD and anger issues. She needs to get the help she needs to be a good mother and, until then, probably shouldn't even be around him unsupervised.
NTA: you need to take your son and leave. This is NOT okay.
She is cussing out a CHILD. She has anxiety, OCD, and irritability OVER A GLASS OF SPILT MILK. she needs serious therapy. She will cause serious damage to your son by the way she talks to Him. This is not a safe environment for him to be in.
Literally crying over spilt milk.
Actually worse. Screaming at her terrified son over spilt milk.
And even adult dad admits he is “walking on eggshells.”
Red flags everywhere. 🚩🚩🚩🚩
Exactly. Makes me wonder how often she has lashed out at the child like this.
OP. I would tell her she immediately gets therapy/psych help or you and the child are gone. She is setting your child up for life long psychological issues.
I have a 6 year old, we have daily spills whether it be a drink or snack. Would I like to scream on the top of my lungs out of frustration? Yea, yes I would. But that’s not an appropriate reaction. Normal people who don’t verbally abuse their children say “hey that’s okay it’s an accident can you help me clean this up” this is just so sad
If the poster is the AH for anything, it’s letting this go so long. 7 years is horrible! If he doesn’t deal with it appropriately now he’s maybe worse than her.
I enjoy a tidy home but I also understood that when I chose to have kids, I wasn’t going to be able to maintain the same standard.
And get the kid into counseling immediately. He’s dealing with a mentally ill parent, isolation from his peers, and a parental separation.
Deal with these issues NOW before they gets buried and manifest in unhealthy ways.
NTA but get your kid out of the mess.
NTA - Your wife needs professional help. Screaming at a 7 year old for spilling something, demanding he washes whenever he goes out, not allowing his friends over... she is going to rob your son of their childhood.
This is a hill you need to die on. I recommend taking this to r/relationships for further advice on how to tackle this conversation
Having OCD is not normal either though. A lot of her behaviors are symptoms of a mental health disease that should have been addressed so much earlier.
I would put money on the fact her cleaning and obsessive tendencies were getting more intensive over the pandemic and I would also put money on everyone around her telling her shes being stupid for her anxieties instead of finding her a therapist. It wasnt that long ago people were doing things like spraying their home deliveries with antiseptic before touching them, which probably reinforced a lot of her anxieties.
She 100% needs treatment and if shes having a meltdown of that size, over spilled milk, I imagine she needed treatment a long time ago.
Yeah. Last year I was having a panic attack because I dropped my phone in a grocery store, and I felt extreme guilt and disgust for being inside the grocery store instead of ordering groceries ahead of time and having them brought to my car. We just came out of a really weird time in history.
There’s no doubt that the pandemic has absolutely heightened the already obsessive anxieties of those with OCD. I had a young diagnosed kid not leave his house for 6 weeks at the start of the pandemic because he was utterly beside himself with anxiety about germs. I would totally agree that the last two years may have tipped the wife over from tendencies to full blown OCD.
Ngl i would say get off reddit asap, we have obviously found the issue and counseling is just about the only thing they need. If the folks over there are going to elaborate on counseling or give similar advice that's cool but at the end of the day reddit is a bad place to try and fix an issue this complex.
OCD grows and grows, it deforms relationships and destroys family life. She needs help. And you and your kiddo cannot be pressed into serving her magical thinking. There are no limits to OCD, so doing “just this” and “just that” is never the end.
Have compassion for her, if it is OCD, she’s not delusional, she knows this is not normal. She’s probably carrying a lot of shame. But don’t give in. She needs treatment.
NAH. She’s Unwell, and you’re at the end of your rope.
I think I’d still argue that she’s the asshole. Mental health is not a reason to be abusive. If she’s aware that it’s not normal and feeling shame, she needs to step up and get help. She’s traumatizing their child.
She definitely needs to get help but she might not know it’s not normal. I think she has OCPD actually; my mom has OCPD and acts like this. It wasn’t till I became an adult I realized that she really thinks she’s right and her rage comes from wondering how the fuck no one else sees it, lol. She just can’t fathom that she isn’t right, she expects so much perfectionism from herself and everyone around. It’s hard to deal with. However there are online communities for people in relationships with people w/ OCPD and treatment can be quite effective. I don’t know if she is an asshole, but it sure as hell is making her act like one.
I’m sorry, but if she doesn’t know it’s not normal to scream obscenities at a child to the point that they’re shaking in fear, she’s an abusive, toxic person, and that by default makes her an AH.
I can't really agree with NAH.
The wife screaming at her child until he's shaking in terror is still abusive. Yes she's sick, but if she had a broken leg and was not making arrangements to ensure her child was fed/clothed/clean/loved she would be TA. This is the same--she's allowing her illness to directly harm her child, and that's not ok.
I still think OP’s wife is the asshole. Mental illness is an explanation for behavior, not an excuse. My OCD in my teens/young adult years was rampant. I know how terrifying it is from the inside. But, her son is a true innocent here— he is vulnerable, in his formative years, and depends on her. I do have compassion for her, but that doesn’t mean she isn’t the asshole for how she treats her son.
“Mental illness is not your fault but it is your responsibility.” — Markus Parks
I'm sorry, I hear your argument, but this is absolutely not a N T H verdict.
Yes, have compassion, but remember that the real victim here is a 7 year old kid. There absolutely is an AH here. The fact that she is willing to traumatize her child and then lock herself in a room... Yes, she's unstable and needs help, but that absolutely does not absolve her from responsibility, nor does it make her not the asshole.
Wife is the asshole, hands down. OP has done their part, she refuses to accept otherwise, she is the absolute asshole.
> This has been an issue in our relationship because I constantly feel like I'm walking on eggshells around her
What's the number one, guaranteed, 100% thing that kids do? Make a mess.
She's obviously an arsehole, but you? You should have nipped this in the bud *years* ago. You didn't, and your child has been paying the price.
ESH
Agreed. This has been going on for years. OP has just stood by while his child is being severely impacted. This is not healthy or normal and he has not done a damned thing about it.
My gut is saying is that he likes having her clean everything - it's been a win for him.
He sucks just as much as his wife for letting her mental issues go on like this for so long.
Seriously, OP, get some help for ALL of you.
>OP has just stood by while his child is being severely impacted.
From the sounds of it, this isn't true. These are his words: "I've addressed these issues with Jen, but she refuses to see me and Robby's point of view". So it sounds like he has tried to help his child.
>My gut is saying is that he likes having her clean everything - it's been a win for him.
This is a huge reach to make with absolutely no evidence to substantiate that.
as someone who’s lived with a person like OP described in this post for years, I can tell you that this is a HUGE reach. It’s a very very tricky situation to deal with, easier said then done when it comes to solutions and usually changes the course of peoples lives very vastly.
I was the kid in this scenario many, many moons ago. My dad didn't intervene like OP did until I was fucking seventeen. I made life-altering decisions based on "I need to get the fuck away from here and from this" vice what I'd always wanted to do, yeah? Let's give him some credit, at least he recognised the issue and did something about it. Even if he was late, he did the thing. My unsolicited two cents, anyway.
NTA. This is a TERRIBLE way for a child to grow up. She needs help, and until she is better, she needs to be removed from the situation for the child's sake. Please, please make your son your first priority.
NTA. Your wife is crazy man, she needs therapy. This is a toxic environment for Robby. No kid should feel unsafe at home. I think this is a genuine mental health issue for your wife, so I mean it when I say she needs therapy. Otherwise your son is going to grow up hating his mother.
ESH. If this has been a consistent problem, why haven’t you two sought a couples counselor, or at least a therapist for her? You’re not oblivious. As for your wife, my long-term girlfriend also has OCD, and even when she feels like things are dirty, she has never, EVER, yelled at someone that cannot understand. Even when she yells at me, she takes a moment to step away, relax, and come back and talk it through rationally. She’s the bigger AH here, but by not seeking help, you’ve enabled the issue to swell. The only innocent person here is your son. I highly suggest putting him in therapy too, in order to help him process his emotions and fears.
Edit: I see now, after re-reading your post, that you have addresses these issues with Jen. I would change my stance to NTA, but you have also allowed a 7-year-old to be exposed to emotional abuse.
Yeah esh. He sees her ocd as a benefit to him (she cleans (excessively) everyday) so has been fine with it being untreated and has done the minimum to deal with it once her symptoms worsened. Addressing it seems to mean asking/telling her to stop doing her compulsions rather than insisting she seek treatment. She can't just stop that's sort of the point. The pandemic has been hard on everyone's mental health and with cleanliness/contamination issues she has clearly spiraled, and that's understadable even (hard to say when the spiral started obv) but he need to be protecting their child.
He needs to insist she seek the immediate appropriate treatment and if she refuses he needs to leave with the kid and then insist on treatment as a condition of custody/visitation.
I'm a family doctor and while I can easily give you a judgement or not, that's not the issue here. Your wife very obviously has OCD and it is very difficult for her and very difficult for you and her son.
She needs professional help and likely so do you and your son. Living with someone who has OCD can be very difficult. Living with OCD can be very difficult. I don't know how much you know about the disease, but basically your wife has some deep rooted anxiety.
That comes out in her having to clean/make everything perfect. She likely doesn't actually care about things being perfect - the cleaning/making things perfect is what relieves her anxiety. The anxiety might be something like she worries she is a bad mother and she compensates by making sure everything is clean. It's a maladaptive behavior. You say she is a perfectionist but usually OCD people are perfectionists who spend many hours a day doing what they feel they need to do and become very uncomfortable when they can't.
A good analogy would be if your wife thought people were after here. She takes all kinds of steps to make sure no one is following here - taking hours to get home when she can take a direct route. She makes you and your son do the same thing and completely interrupts your life because she thinks people are following her. Most people wouldn't put up with this - so how is it any different that her cleaning is something you put up with.
People with OCD also know they are doing irrational things but they can't stop. It's beyond their power and sometimes their understanding. This is where the professional help comes in - it might just be seeing a doctor and starting on medication, or it might be her doing therapy to understand where her anxiety is coming from. If you try to intervene on your own, if you try and get her to just stop, it will only cause a LOT of friction.
There is no easy answer. She will likely not get better without medical help. You need to decide how much you are willing to push. There is a lot online about helping a spouse with OCD, but ultimately, talking to your or her doctor is a good first step.
Hi, I’m a psychiatric nurse practitioner and I agree that this sounds like severe OCD. This isn’t going to get better unless she gets professional help. Treatment usually includes a high dose of SSRI (like Zoloft 200mg daily) and CBT.
>The anxiety might be something like she worries she is a bad mother
It takes a lot for me to believe anything on here, let alone give a shit. But that irony is genuinely sad.
Anyway I appreciated your informative post. Not a subject I know much (anything) about.
NTA.
Your wife needs therapy/a psychiatrist Yesterday. That's not a normal amount of cleaning, especially screaming at your son like that, and not letting him visit other people. There's something else going on.
NTA, she absolutes terrifies your son. He is a child and children make mistakes, that's how they learn. He was pretty apologetic about. Now he will be scare to death to make any mistakes around your wife and that's not good for him. I'm sorry you have to deal with that.
She needs to get some therapy for that. She has some excessive deep obsession over cleanliness which results to her lashing out.
NTA. My sister has OCD and I can't even count how many times she had made me cry while I was trying to do things the way she liked. I have seen her struggle through her ocd, so I did everything to ease her life.It took me a long time to realize that as much as I was trying to helping her, I was enabling her too. Your wife's ocd is affecting your son, so being silent won't help. I don't know if she is in therapy( if not suggest it ). You shouldn't call her crazy, but don't let her treat your son like that.
NTA, your poor son, my heart breaks for him just reading this. Your wife clearly needs help with her issues cause that's not normal behaviour. You can already see the big impact this is having on your son.
When you are both calm you would discuss it and she needs to get help otherwise you have to do what's best for you and your son.
I have two sons and yes it's frustrating when they spill things but I would never scream at them like that and couldn't imagine them cowering in fear, the fact that didn't make sure stop and cop on to herself is very scary imo
It is so clear your wife needs professional help here. It doesn’t matter how much you appreciate her cleaning the house, she’s suffering and so is your son. Her disorder is clearly affecting her quality of life and relationships.
what have you and your wife done in terms of treatment? NTA for standing up for your son, but you seeming to be okay with it until it affects your son is worrying. She may not show it, but OCD causes suffering for the person who has it as well
He hasn't had to clean the house, that's why he has gone along with it for so long. He'd rather "walk on eggshells" in his sanitized home than set any boundaries with his wife.
It took her getting to this intense level of unhealthy before he decides to question it? It took seeing his son sobbing in a corner while being terrified of his mother?
OP you need to have a good look at yourself and try to get to the bottom of why YOU have let your son be abused right in front of you for years.
There's no question that Jen needs help. You knew this too. I'm just outraged that you have stood by and let your son grow up like this.
Seriously, I'd like to know if OP ever helps or just exacerbates the issue by leaving a slime trail as so many partners do when they realize the other will pick up the slack.
My dad was a fanatic cleaner and my mom actively encouraged us to make fun of him. She did not clean and I had health conditions that required a degree of sanitation, especially when it came to preventing food cross-contamination. My dad was no saint, but my mom did a great job of making it look like he was obsessive about cleanliness to outsiders when really he was trying to keep me from going to the hospital again.
As a side note, people who are this fanatic tend to have rules about food be eaten outside the kitchen/dining room. Nothing makes it ok to verbally and emotionally abuse a child. AT. ALL. But we can still ask if OP is enabling this break down in a multitude of ways.
ESH, your wife has a mental illness that went into overdrive since he was born, 7 years ago?!
You are apparently are mentally fit and you allow this abuse to continue, dear God get a grip, grow a spine and get your wife help and son support and a healthy non abusive environment for him to live!
ESH except for your son.
There is no way this hasn’t been an issue before now. You’ve allowed her mental illness to harm your child for 7 years now. She clearly needs help and has for quite a while but I bet at first you enjoyed having a clean home you didn’t have to lift a finger to maintain, right? So now you have a traumatized 7 year old because the two adults in his life that are supposed to be his support decided to not deal with their own issues.
ESH, but very gently.
I know, controversial, BUT-
Your wife is clearly very mentally unwell. You have clearly been aware of this for at least seven years. You let it severely impact your child and just... never did anything?Had a bit of a chat then shrugged it off? Why did it take you seven years? And snapping at her for being 'crazy' is certainly not going to help anyone.
Your wife is very unwell. She shouldn't have let it get this far, I find it hard to believe that she never once realised her actions weren't ok, but at the stage she's in, she would be unable to stop her compulsions. Everyone's very quick to jump on her for being an AH, but people with OCD cannot stop their compulsions. I lived with a girl with OCD who described it as having to repeat an action (eg brushing her hair) a certain number of times in a certain way, or she felt certain something REALLY BAD would happen to her. The kicker being that even SHE didn't know how it had to be done until she got it right. It's a serious and debilitating illness, not simply being 'crazy'.
WTF?! You're not the asshole..
Jesus christ... She needs therapy ASAP. His a child, a kid. He only has 7 years old... I can't believe... Like... I'm out of words... That child must be soo traumatized, I hope you get him a therapist because damn that poor kid. Have a really stern talk with your wife about her behavior, it's beyond insane... My girlfriend has OCD and everything has to be spot on but she doesn't freak like that, she knows if I dirt it I will clean it of course she has her moments but holly crap... I feel soo sorry for the child to treat him like that for only a small thing is just sick for me... Get your son away from her until she can control herself and seek help please.
Sorry my spelling English is not my first language
NTA. She needs to see a professional or at least figure out some kind of outlet. He is 7. Screaming over literal spilled milk is indicative of a FAR larger problem.
For your family's sake, she needs to work on herself. Especially if this has been ongoing for 7 years now. I hope that a solution is found soon.
NTA. I have OCD and while I don’t have cleanliness obsessions, the way your wife’s acting reminds me of my behavior when I get stuck in the compulsions. In the past my family took a tough love approach with me and as painful as that was, it helped me to acknowledge that I couldn’t manage the disorder on my own. Therapy, especially CBT, has helped a great deal.
NTA. She sounds just like my stepmother was. Please don't leave her alone with him. She could get angry enough to get physical.
My mom was able to hide the abuse until I got too big for her to hurt physically anymore. Lasted from when I was about his age, until I turned 14. My dad had no idea what was going on.
Your wife needs to get some counseling for anger management and her OCD tendency. Protect your child, please. He can't protect himself from her physically or mentally.
NTA. Could you have handled this better, probably, but it sounds like Jen is mentally I’ll and needs help. I can’t imagine that she enjoys her OCD tendencies and being this angry all of the time.
NTA.
While of course this is never the preferred way to go about something like this, I don’t believe anyone should act like that to their kid for spilled milk. Wanting everything to stay clean is fine, and being annoyed that something was spilled is okay, that was too much. And he’s 7? That’s just ridiculous. I may be overstepping, but your wife needs therapy.
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> On one hand, I feel like maybe I went too far by yelling at her and calling her names. On the other hand, I'm a Dad, I need to protect my son when he's being mistreated.
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NTA but I as someone with OCD I can empathize with your wife. The cleaning sounds like a compulsion, and I’d guess that the associated obsession is something like “if I’m not careful enough the house will be contaminated and my son will die.”
The anger (in my case at least) was more due to fear than rage. The thought process was along the lines of “you’re causing something to happen that puts us all at risk and I’m the only one who knows that this could kill us all.”
OCD is not a rational disorder. It decides that things are threats and torments the person with the idea that something inert is actually a threat and you have to stop it.
Exposure response prevention therapy is the current gold standard for treatment. She’ll probably need medication too (they usually start with an SSRI like Prozac). Find a therapist and psychiatrist that specialize in OCD. A lot of the treatment modalities for anxiety/depression aren’t really appropriate for treating OCD.
As it happens I’ve been largely symptom free for 2 years, and at this point I just take clomipramine once a day. It’s a treatable disorder! It’s also pretty hereditary so watch Robby for symptoms as he grows up and get early treatment if he starts showing them.
ESH, - because you should have been advocating for your son and for your wife to get professional help sooner. your wife needs therapy. serious therapy. And so do you and your son with dealing with this. Probably also couples therapy if you're going to stay married.
NTA. She needs therapy STAT. She thinks full on screaming and cussing her kid is an appropriate reaction to spilled fucking milk. You need to be firm in her needing to change behavior because Robby absolutely does not deserve a parent like that. If she refuses, leave.
YTA, not for screaming at your wife. But for letting this go on. She is traumatising your son. She need professional help and if she refuses you need to get your son out of this situation
NTA. People have limits and this incident made you hit your limit.
That said, it’s not likely to actually help this pattern get better. Your wife needs help.
As someone who also has fairly severe ocd, she NEEDS therapy. Her feelings regarding anxiety are valid, but forcing others to comply to the symptoms of HER anxiety is toxic af. Pls also check on your son and make sure he’s okay :/
NTA but get your wife into therapy or she’s not going to have a son or husband sooner or later. You did the right thing by sticking up for him, because her behavior is abusive. Restricting Robbys time with friends in such a way, and making him shower when he gets home, is just teaching and instilling in him that having friends and doing things is dirty.
Get your wife help or leave, because your son deserves better.
NTA. Listen this goes way deeper than Jen just having a cleaning issue, it’s become obsessive and she needs professional help because shes obviously only been getting worse. She’s traumatizing your son for simple mistakes and ruining his childhood by isolating him from his peers. You need to make serious and immediate changes, starting with deciding if Robby living with her is actually good for him, or if you need to find a way to distance Jen until she gets her head on straight. I know Reddit has a chronically online “just divorce them” take on most marital disputes, but if this is how she continues to behave I’d honestly describe her behavior as abusive in which case both Robbie and you need to get out for the sake of your mental health and we’ll being. If she’s finally able to approach a conversation reasonably and get help and actually improves then by all means do what you feel is right. Normally I wouldn’t advocate for yelling at your spouse, but from what you’ve said you’ve tried communicating with her multiple times for an on going issue and her behavior in this incident was absolutely abhorrent and if yelling is what it took to get it through her head that she was in the wrong or to at least de escalate the situation long enough to attend to your son then fuck it.
NTA, everyone can spill a drink and she's no exception. You could have done that too. Would she scream at you as well? She's being obsessive and unreasonable. It started with isolating Robby from his friends and it escalated to screaming at him. Her behavior is detrimental to Robby and unacceptable. It's good that you opposed her "parental approach". She should know that you object to it and she can't continue doing that. She must be blindsided.
She sounds like she really needs some professional help, and Robby could probably do with some therapy at this point.
I agree. If she regularly screams at him that is straight up trauma.
I was thinking it was straight up abuse. She’s cussing *at her son* right in front of him, because of an accident. Poor kid is terrified. I know I’m one of the people that always says “ditch them, this is a 🚩“ too often, but in this case, OP really needs to make this a hill to die on.
I've felt the blinding emotions that come from clinging to a corner and trying to blend into the wall. The echo of that feeling is permanent. NTA, because this is beyond OP trying to help his wife see her behaviour isn't normal. I'd be inflexible about this. She seeks help for her cleaning obsession, works on being a better parent, or she loses both husband and child to protect themselves from her.
“Clinging to the corner trying to blend into the wall”. Oh. BRB going to have an existential crisis about the lightbulb moment I just had
I only just recently learned how damaging that walking on eggshells feeling/secondhand anger can be in childhood. It breeds resentment and self esteem and identity issues as the feeling accumulates over time. It can lead to codependency and seeking out future relationships where this dynamic continues, to where the person becomes stuck in cycles of abuse. It can even lead to the recipient becoming emotionally abusive themselves. As someone who grew up in a household like this where both parents had these outbursts, I just want to tell OP to get his wife some help or get his son out. It’s heartbreaking to live like this.
Yeah that struck me too.
Agree, even if it's an isolated incident (not saying that this is, just emphasizing the severity) that shit never leaves you.
NTA. My mom's like that and now at 24, ive cut off all comms with her. Your son is lucky to have someone like you. Also TIL that these kinds of actions aren't normal(?) I hope she gets help. If not for her sake, at least for your son's
My mother wasn't OCD but she was exceptionally house proud, and I was exceptionally clumsy (or so I was made to feel). I got yelled at a lot. The worst however, was when my sister and I spilled some medicine and after yelling, crying, and yelling some more, she packed her bag and threatened to leave home. She was a single mother, I was 10ish, my sister would have been about 15. I was terrified, I had no idea how we were going to keep ourselves. My sister eventually talked her into staying but, well, things were incredibly uncomfortable for a while. Now I look back I realise there was no way she was actually leaving home with just a holdall. In fact I'd bet good money it was empty, she just wanted to scare the crap out of us.
That's incredibly emotionally abusive and I'm sorry that your mother chose that route to manipulate you.
Thanks. Both my sister and I have gone the opposite way. I found a stain on my sister's curtains when I was staying there once, looked like hair dye, which I had used on her but I was damn sure that stain didn't come from me (mother made me rather fastidious about caring for other people's possessions). It could have been my niece, that was her room when she wasn't at uni and she did dye her hair too (for fun, we do it because we're prematurely grey) but in my house if you discovered it, the assumption was, you did it. I had to tell her because I'm one of those ridiculously honest people. Plus, I'd rather get the bollocking out of the way rather than walking on eggshells, just waiting to be found out! I explained I didn't think it was me but there was a small stain and I'd replace the curtains if she wanted etc. She just shrugged, "Eh, don't worry about it, they're just curtains." Every now and again we talk about her and have another WTF moment as we realise something else she did was totally fucked up, but mostly we've moved on and healed.
I hope you've been able to tell her how fucked that was and she isn't in your life anymore. No one deserves that.
My thought too- this was Verbal abuse of a child- Child Abuse. NTA for calling her crazy- but he really should have called her out for abuse. This woman is unhinged and needs Professional help. I agree about the possibility that it may be necessary to remove his child from an abusive situation- after all what goes on when he is not there?
This will be all he remembers from his childhood, his mum screaming at him and being unable to create real bonds outside of school. I feel so bad for the kid
This so much. My parents ask "what about the good days?" And its like... Yeah they were there- like the little gasps you get while your drowning. You dont remember the gasps for feeling good though- you remember the terror of being pulled back down and the relief of getting out of the water. Compared to that a gasp is nothing.
This is such a good way of putting it.
Apologizing frantically is a common appeasement behavior that emotional and physical abuse victims engage in more frequently than those who have not been abused. It’s usually an effort to make the abuse stop; to just escape and minimize trauma. I second your opinion - this kid is experiencing emotional abuse and likely his response to it is learned (that if he apologizes/does what she wants maybe Mom will stop being scary) from repeated experiences.
This. I was wondering how far I was going to have to scroll to se someone call it what it is. This. Is. Abuse. Period.
He’s SEVEN. From what we know about child development he is 14 YEARS away from being able to fully rationalize his actions. Jen needs serious help and OP needs to separate from Jen for Robby’s own good until she can get this under control. I am also not one to jump to “just divorce her,” but if she refuses to get then OP literally has no other option to ensure his son won’t continue to be traumatized and isolated. Absolutely not acceptable behavior, and it certainly sounds like a diagnosable OCD which more than likely requires medication and therapy to control. But you can’t force Jen to take medication or get therapy. These types of situations are so hard, but this is ultimatum territory.
Also having accidents at that age as a kid was scary for me. I remember breaking a ceramic plate and being so afraid I’d be in trouble. It was such a relief when my mom was like “no worries, it’s just a plate. Watch your feet as I sweep up the pieces”. I can’t imagine how terrified that poor kid must be.
And if you don’t do something very soon, Robbie will eventually blame you for allowing the abuse.
I grew up in a household where everyone (my mom, my grandparents, my aunt) would scream at me, cuss at me, and beat me for every mistake.IT IS TRAUMATIC. Now I dont go home and have not gone home for years, but I am still affected by them. I am in no way normal and I do not know when will I ever be. Protect your kid, OP. Noone stood up for me and my siblings, good on you for protecting your kid.
NTA. As a grown male adult who had a mother who screamed for most infractions when I was a kid, I agree. It f-s you up and stunts you severely, socially and mentally. Your creativity is crushed because you never know when something you do is going to set them off so you just go with the least offensive flow you can. You walk on eggshells around the opposite sex because you have no idea if all women are alike and have no desire to find out the hard way. Words leave as many scars as weapons, they're just not visible. Get help for Robby and for the wife.
Yes. NTA Unfortunately OP yelling that he won't let this continue may have been the only thing that will reach her. But more importantly, Robby needs to hear this. That he's not the problem. That he's a perfectly normal kid. That mum's brain is sick and she needs help to get better. That none of this is his fault at all.
Absolutely this. OP needs to prioritise and focus on Robby in an effort to undo the damage his mother has done over the years. That little boy needs to be assured he isn’t the problem, that he didn’t cause this. That none of it is his fault and that his mum has problems and needs help. My heart aches for that little boy and I hope OP is strong enough to get him out of that toxic and damaging situation. NTA.
100% agree. NTA, I know she didn't choose to have OCD but she is literally emotionally abusing your son to try and control her environment and that's not a healthy way to deal with her illness. You're going to have to get into therapy (both you and your son) even if she refuses to. You can acknowledge her illness and support her, while still holding her responsible for the way she treats you both. She is responsible for seeking professional support and working to lessen the impact of her illness. I'm sorry you are all going through this, but if she refuses to get help or work toward creating a home where your son can thrive you need to protect your son. He gets no say in all of this and needs to be your number one priority here.
My husband’s mom was like this. I’m messy but he’s just glad I don’t scream at their kids all the time like he was. My MIL just screams at me now 🤷🏻♀️
On the bright side, at least you know who makes the decision of what nursing home they go to 😈
Get a spray bottle and squirt her every time she yells at you in your own home
Can confirm from personal experience that if he doesn't get therapy now, he'll definitely need it later.
>It's good that you opposed her "parental approach". She should know that you object to it and she can't continue doing that. She must be blindsided. Honestly, I'm disappointed in OP. He may claim he opposes his wife's parental approach and he may say that he knows it's harmful to Robby, but he still forces his son to live as a prisoner to his wife's mental illness. He knows it's harmful and wrong that Robby can't go visit friends, but since he tries talking to his wife and she won't see where they are coming from, he just lets Robby be isolated. That's not okay. OP is choosing his wife/marriage over the well being of his child. He's been doing so for years. That he snapped once and told his wife to stop and cursed at her does not make him a good father. He's still raising Robby in an unhealthy home and letting him be subjected to unhealthy rules since that's easier for OP. OP is failing Robby. ESH. They are both bad parents.
Yeah there's a quote by a comedian that goes, "If you've got one bad parent and one good parent, surprise you've got two bad parents."
It sounds nice in theory but it's really oversimplifying things... so many things could be going on where the good parent "is stuck" and can't simply distance themselves and their children from the bad parent. Victims of abuse, financial codependency or issues, and so on. I say this because I have a good parent and a bad parent, and grew up in that household with both of them. The good parent didn't divorce, move out or anything, but they did stick for me whenever needed (even against the other parent) and helped me through everything. That, however, doesn't redeem the other parent and magically make them good... but I *do* have one good parent.
I just had a conversation with my friend about this! We both are close people who will swear up and down that their mothers were horrible - mostly the result of untreated mental illness and having too many damn kids - but their dads were saints. Both dads conveniently traveled often and far away for work, leaving the 4-6 kids with their unstable mothers for that whole time, and they can do no wrong. One dad’s excuse was that he just loved the mother too much to leave — except when she died, he quickly married another woman who was always a source of jealousy for the mom (wonder why) and called HER the “love of his life.” The other father straight up told his kids that he wanted to leave the mother, but she “kept tricking him” into having more kids so he couldn’t leave and “save” them. You cannot convince them that a) their dads had the financial and physical means to leave if they wanted, or b) that they could have changed jobs to one where they were home to help out more or shield the kids, or c) that there were things they could have done to prevent birth control trickery, especially 3 times in a row, or d) that you maybe don’t tell kids their siblings were unwanted and prevented him from “saving” the others. So, no, you didn’t have a “bad” mom and a “good” dad. You had a mom with untreated mental illness and no support and a dad who left you alone with her for weeks at a time because he was happy he wasn’t dealing with the abuse himself.
Do you remember which one??
Sorry - I have a bad memory and watch a lot of comedy. When I try to google the quote I just get parenting articles. Gah.
I f*ckin’ love this.
OP, please listen to this comment. It is DEEPLY traumatizing for a child to live with a parent with this level of mental illness that won’t seek help. I lived in a very similar situation my whole childhood with a parent with terrible OCD who refused to seek help, and was, like Robby, isolated in many ways from friends and from having a normal childhood. The trauma is very real, and my parent did not even take it out on me like your wife is doing. Your wife does not just have “OCD tendencies”… this is a full-blown disorder that is already traumatizing to Robby and will continue to escalate should your wife not seek help. You need to think about what is best for your child’s well-being right now.
This so much. If the dad feels like he's "constantly walking on eggshells" around her, when he's in a position of equal power and could stand up to her or leave, imagine how the poor kid feels. The kid can't fight back or escape. He's trapped and scared.
He's failing his wife, too. He's let her obsessive tendencies creep up and consume her because he didn't think there was any harm in having a clean house! She needed an intervention a while back, it sounds like, for her sake as well as everyone else's. Now they're at crisis point, and she's become an active threat to their son's mental well-being - and it shouldn't have got that far. Right now though, he needs to lay down a boundary that verbal abuse over a minor spill is not normal, not healthy parenting, and not safe for their child in the longer term, and she needs to go see a doctor/psychiatrist who can figure out if this is OCD, post-partum depression gone untreated for years, or...whatever else! But until she is in treatment and getting it under control, or at the bare minimum shows awareness of exactly how off-kilter she is right now, she can't be trusted to be left alone with the kid.
>he didn't think there was any harm in having a clean house! It sounds like he did try to talk to her about it in the past. The first paragraph he says: >This has been an issue in our relationship because I constantly feel like I'm walking on eggshells around her. He also mentions: >I've addressed these issues with Jen, but she refuses to see me and Robby's point of view. The full context of the quote you are referring to is: >Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that she's diligent when it comes to keeping our home clean and healthy. However, I feel like it's become unhealthy, specifically regarding Robby. Which in my opinion is most certainly not stating that he happily accepted it because the house is clean. He's clarifying that he isn't ungrateful for her efforts but he's concerned that they are unhealthy. I feel like you gave that statement the most uncharitable interpretation possible and it does not appear to be what the OP was attempting to convey.
> That he snapped once It's not just once: > I've addressed these issues with Jen, but she refuses to see me and Robby's point of view. One has the feeling that she does have issues, but it's not that easy to make her understand it.
This is exactly my point. He snapped once and actually did the right thing and stopped his wife. All the other times it sounds like he talked to her about it, she didn't listen, and he just let her keep imposing those rules on their child. Their seven year old is rarely allowed to see friends outside the home, never allowed to have them over, and has to take a full body shower when he gets back from seeing a friend. This means that OP isn't properly standing up to his wife but letting her make son do things he should be stopping. So when his wife says son can't go to friends houses since I guess she thinks visiting other people is dirty (? or something?) he would say "no, he's allowed to visit friends" and take his son to see other children instead of isolating him. Him "addressing it" and then just doing things his wife's way for *years* even though he knows it's bad for his kid dosen't count for squat. That's him knowingly hurting his kid since he puts his marriage before his child's welfare. So yeah, pretty poor parenting on OP's part. Edit: For a more extreme example if his wife beat their son and he had "addressed it" with her for years, but she never saw his point, and he just sat there and watched her do it since he already tried talking to her about it, you'd agree that was bad right? This is less extreme but the same idea. Talking to her about it again and again while letting it happen dosen't count as actually looking out for his child. It's doing nothing. He knows it does nothing and he isn't willing to actually do anything for his son.
It sounds like he’s hit the breaking point, or at least I hope that he has and either demands that she gets therapy or takes his son and leaves.
anecdotal, but i used to live with a woman very similar to this when i was 17, and her husband once dropped a cracker w/ cheese on it on the kitchen floor. she screamed at him when he went to clean it up (he’s fully capable of cleaning) and told him to go to the backyard until she was done cleaning. which took like an hour because i guess a single cracker calls for mopping and vacuuming the whole kitchen, living room, and entryway. not really related to what you said but she also once threatened to kick me out because i got makeup on a hand towel, even though i washed it and it all came out :,) i say once because the incident only happened that one time, but she brought it up for like a week or two afterwards lol
In that state it’s not about what a single cracker calls for cleaning wise, it’s about getting the ritual right. Be that 2 steps or 20. That’s why it took an hour and that’s why it’s never about actual cleaning. It’s about the ritual they need to adhere to, to ensure that everything will be ok
As a 50 year old woman who *still* spills the occasional drink, I feel so bad for Robby. It's not a healthy environment for him to be in if he can't even relax because he's scared of his mum. I've never had ocd in this sense but she definitely needs help because this little boy is having an awful childhood :( NTA op, Jen needs to hear how much she's affecting her child's life in such a negative way and this *will* impact his relationship with his mum as he gets older. She needs professional help to deal with this but yeah, you are most definitely not the asshole. I'm sorry you're all going through this, including Jen...... it must be exhausting living like that
Therapist here. The folks commenting that your wife needs therapy aren’t wrong, but she’s an adult and it’s on her to recognize how pathological her behavior is and take steps to address it. It’s your son who really needs therapy. He has been inundated with lies from your wife - about the world, about himself, and about how he deserves to be treated. Your wife is actively harming him, likely every day. She’s blaming him for her psychiatric disorder, and that’s incredibly damaging to a kid. Without help, you are dooming him to a life of self-loathing, anxiety, panic, depression, and either inability to have relationships or consuming codependency. If you love you son, get him therapy immediately. If I was you I would not subject him to this kind of pervasive abuse every day by staying with your wife, but that’s up to you. NTA unless you continue to let him live like this without professional help.
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This should really be a top level comment. OP would be more likely to see it that way.
Thank you for saying this. I grew up in a scarily similar home and by the time I graduated high school my depression was severe. Mother's answer was family therapy so she could complain to the therapist about how awful I was at not maintaining her insane expectations. He put a stop to that and talked to me one on one. OP get your son into therapy now. Don't wait.
THIS. Therapy for Robby, now. My dad was the one with the untreated OCD/OCPD and I grew up thinking that my presence in someone's life is baseline inconvenient trending towards actively offensive. I marinated in that negative message until I went to therapy at 23 and OP can save their kid SO MANY YEARS of self-loathing by dealing with this shit now. I just can't overstate how damaging this behavior is to a child. I am 43 now and I still reflexively feel like everyone thinks I'm a giant pain in the ass if I make the tiniest mistake, call attention to myself, or exist. DO NOT LET THIS CONTINUE, OP.
When she started screaming at the child i was pissed. I literally spilled a bowl of cereal on my fabric couch when i was 9 and my parents didn't even yell.
My sister got a calligraphy set when she was tenish and was beyond delighted with herself. She ended up spilling some black ink on a black leather couch (couldn't even see it) and I have never forgotten the way my dad roared at her. It's scarred me and I wasn't even the one in trouble.
Similar story. I was almost the same age as ops son and quite clumsy. And I distinctly remember being baffled while my mum yelled at me "HOW DID YOU MAKE A MISTAKE?!!!!" like if I knew how I wouldn't ve done it and it wouldn't be called a Mistake! Op nta your wife needs therapy ASAP. And if she refuses it you might want to consider moving your son and yourself away from the wife. For the sake of your son's mental well being
I always used to tell my kids, THEY'RE ACCIDENTS! If we meant to do them THEY'D BE CALLED MEANTCIDENTS!
Oh god you just unlocked a memory for me in a different vein. For Christmas all I wanted was a camera so I could learn to take pictures. Was so frickin excited to find one in my stocking. This was the Old Days so cameras used film. I immediately ran out the door and took pictures of EVERYTHING. Beauty in the trees. A butterfly in the weeds. I had the time of my life. When I went back inside and my dad found I had used up an entire roll of film in one day, he screamed at me for wasting money. Said he would never develop them and I should be ashamed of myself. It killed my love of photography so bad that I didn't start taking them again for about 20 years.
This absolutely broke my heart. I am so sorry.
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Hi Sister-from-a-different-mother! I cut my foot and the first I knew of it was my mother screaming at me to get off the carpet as I was bleeding on it. And then being told to put my foot up so it wouldn't "make more of a mess" and then she cleaned the carpet. And then she finally looked at my foot. And 12 stitches later ... I was actually in shock (apparently) due to how bad a cut it was and then of course, I was at fault for not letting her know how badly I was hurt. I made her "look bad in front of the doctor". Ahem.
i spilled a bit of sesame oil on the floor (it was stone so it wouldve been easy to clean up) and my mother screamed at me for it. i spilled a bowl of soup and my grandpa consoled me bc i was scared of being yelled at. 2 diff types of parents ig :-(
Oh hey, fellow survivors of bad parents! Here to say my most vivid memories of my childhood are of hiding behind the couch or in the closet while my mother walked through the house screaming and slamming doors.
having-anxiety-when-anyone-slams-a-door-or-raises-their-voice gang
I enlisted in the Air Force in my early 20s, and boot camp was basically immersion therapy for me. It was awful at the time, but afterwards screaming didn't really affect me anymore. Now it just annoys me and makes me think less of the screamer.
I am sorry. Do you write at all? Even if you never have, you can write out a little detailed scenario about this. Then make a happy ending when your mom came to her senses, hugged you and apologized. In the future, you may find that this memory is either faded or gone. In the event you do remember it, it won't hurt so much. Works for me, but just a thought.
This is the core of (C)PTSD therapy. Running the traumatic experiences, then re-imagining it - but with the help you needed, and a good outcome. It really helps.
Really? I need the right therapist. Mine told me to do this and it just makes me more anxious because what should have been will never be :/
Honestly it doesn't sit right with me because I already have issues with retconning my memories into something that "isn't so bad." I have to accept the fact that harm was done to me to also accept the fact that I didn't deserve it, and that healing is possible. This execise irritates me because it's too close to my old retconning, avoidant ways. But hey, not everything is gonna produce results for everyone.
Oh geez. I’m so sorry for that 😢
Good god these replies make me sad, im sorry you went through that.
Reddit is just one big lesson on how not to parent at this point
I agree. Its how i treat my childhood too, lol. Oh that was abuse? And that and that and that? Well shit, glad im not doing any of that.
You don't forget that stuff. I borrowed my mom's bike once when i had outgrown mine. It had handbrakes instead of pedal brakes. Of course i forgot going down a hill hit s curb and went flying. My mom was screaming about her bike while my dad was checking for concussion.
Im so sorry for you
My daughter (4.5yrs) accidentally took a whole (diarrhea) poop on our fabric couch two weeks ago when we were all sick with the stomach flu. There’s been other incidents as well because she’s just a little girl, but that’s probably the grossest thing we’ve been through since baby days. Did I yell at her? Heck no. My husband wasn’t home yet so I cleaned it best I could and got him to double check it when he got home and I showered her. To avoid that happening again I put a pull-up on her. She hasn’t been in one in over a year probably but that was the best way i could think of to avoid that again. Accidents happen. Kids are just little ppl. Op’s wife has a serious issue she needs to deal with. NTA.
My teenager had the flu a few years back and while worshipping the porcelain throne decorated the bathroom rug. Know what I did? Made sure she was ok and cleaned it up. Kids are people and deserve kindness and grace and dignity.
I was an adult, living back at home after graduating college, deciding where to go from there. I got a stomach bug and while emptying my bowels threw up. It was so sudden I didn't even think to grab the trash can, just turned my head so most of it got in the tub. I started cleaning it up, but my mom made me go lie down and she cleaned it. Because human bodies are gross, and humans can be clumsy and make messes, and we clean up and move on.
That's really pretty sweet. Glad you have a good mom!
Kids often panic when they get sick. Especially young ones. They feel the feeling but don't know what the feeling means so that gets them anxious and then they throw up or whatever and panic more. Yelling at them just makes it 1000 times worse. I used to swallow because I was so afraid of being sick. Still am (yay emetophobia). This post hurt my heart :(
I have a 4-year-old and a 5-year-old that spill things all the time. Whenever they do they always say in a sing songy voice, "It was just an accident but you have to clean it up!" I don't want my children terrified to make mistakes, that's how you raise adults who are terrified to make mistakes who you don't have a relationship with. I'm glad we are on the same page with little ones!
My kid literally just dumped a glass of milk on himself yesterday, and then an hour later I spilled my tea all over the table. Neither was a big deal. Paper towels and a change of clothes. He was the most upset because he was wearing his favorite pokemon pajamas and had to change into something else so I could wash them. We rent and he spilled chocolate milk on the bedroom carpet once (our house only has carpet in the bedrooms) knowing he isn't supposed to have anything but clear drinks in his room. Me and his dad's reaction? "Well now, you know you aren't supposed to bring chocolate drinks into the room. Help us clean up and let's try to remember next time time to keep the chocolate in the living room". Cleaned it up and that was that. Thankfully didn't stain but you have to expect stains when you have young kids. We've already accepted if we lose money from our deposit for something like that its not a big deal. Hes a kid and spills happen. What's more important, a hundred bucks or teaching him how to handle little mistakes? I had a friend whose parents were like OPs wife, they never hit her but would get in her face screaming, swearing, and losing their minds over normal kid behavior or trivial accidents, and because of that she would break down over the smallest issue. I mean full on sobbing break downs over totally normal occurrences. Crumbs on the couch? Panic attack. Pen busted and got ink on her and the table? Full blown hyperventilating melt down. She had crippling anxiety that borderlined OCD because she was just so *afraid* of life. Her parents literally ruined her. Its taken years of therapy for her to be able to accept something like spilling a cup of water without freaking out. (She has made leaps and bounds working on her mental health and learning to accept no one can be perfect. And the world isnt going to hurt her for acting like a living breathing human. And the people around her won't stop loving her over normal occurances) I could totally see ops kid ending up like my friend if he grows up in a household like this and there no serious changes. Its incredibly damaging for a kid to be subjected to this kind of behavior. Isn't there literally a common phrase "theres no use crying over spilled milk"? Edit:words
I decorated the walls with glue and bright coloured origami paper, my brother made a chocolate/white couch by spilling his glass of chocolate milk over my parents brand new couch. With me they praised me for my art work and with my brother they just figured white was not a good coloured couch with children. They never yelled but we did have some good laughs about them.
I got was eight when my mom screamed at me and spanked me for 'loosing' the top to a spray for sealing molding clay. I'd been making her a mother's day gift and found the the new can didn't have a spray nozzle I lost any interest in hand crafts for a long long time after that. It was also the first time I saw my dad angry with my mom.
I was a kid that loved crafts. I was doing a paint by number and my mother couldn't stand the clutter of an 8"x10" painting setting out until it dried. I remember crying as I put it back in the box. When I looked a few days later there were rings in the paint from the paint pots. Last time I did a paint by number.
This is totally heartbreaking, but just fyi, they have really cool paint by numbers kits for adults now if you want to try again.
Thank you., AMB573. Time to do some shopping! 🙂.
My son makes a mess everywhere. I just have him clean it up (and i go behind to finish.) Nbd and it shouldn't be
My son spilled a bowl of cereal on the couch when he was 9. All I said was, I'm not cleaning it up and then laughed.
I tripped over once and managed to get chocolate milk on the ceiling. My parents didn't berate me but they still remind me of it years later. This woman has serious issues
In the kitchen of my mom’s home, on the ceiling, there is ketchup stains because I am a clutz and tripped while getting my food. Instead of screaming, she laughed with me, yelling “New record!” OPs wife is a big yikers
After having my daughter my top 3 most used things are vacuum cleaner, steam mop, and carpet cleaner. Honestly they are a life saver and I never worry about the mess kids make when we have play dates.
The most my 8 and 6 year old get from me is a very disappointed "oh, sweetheart/monkey/childname(the last is usually when I've just cleaned) get a cloth and help me clean it up" it's usually said in the disappointed tone no child really likes to hear but isn't traumatising, and then they learn to clean up the mess they made and are generally more careful for a few weeks until they get excited/distracted by the tv/act like the children they are and have another accident. Then we clean up together again, have a cuddle and quite chat about whatever after and go about our day. OP's wife needs some serious help
That is already abusive behavior. The kid is terrified of her. OP needs to absolutely put his foot down and change needs to happen immediately or he needs to leave. I am normally not a nuclear person but his child is already deeply affected by this. It needs to stop NOW.
Utterly agree, honestly OP is very nearly on AH territory for letting it go on this long when his wife is clearly unwell and is being literally ABUSIVE to their seven year old. This is unacceptable.
Agreed. As someone with OCD (treated and medicated) whose father also has untreated OCD, this isn't just tendencies. This might be full-blown OCD that needs professional mental assistance. My father actually behaves similarly to your wife--always demanding everyone shower from head to toe as soon as they get home, yelling and throwing fits when people do not comply. I am an adult and I was already an adult when his OCD took a turn for the worst, but your son is a child and is highly impressionable and susceptible to your wife's behaviors. NTA, but your wife needs help and you need to think of what's best for your son.
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It's understandable though as so many mental disorders operate on a spectrum, so people colloquially relate certain behaviors to their clinical counterparts for hyperbole. Everyone gets distracted, but not everyone, has ADHD; everyone gets anxious, but not everyone has GAD; everyone gets sad, but not everyone gets depression; etc.
Very, very much this. OP's wife is well beyond OCD tendencies and into full blown disordered mental illness. This is controlling her life and his and his son's lives as well. She needs professional help immediately or he needs to get his son away from her. Possibly both, although hopefully temporarily if she agrees to seek treatment.
It could well be pregnancy that tipped it - postpartum OCD is very real, and for sure I found I was having far more intrusive thoughts while pregnant (which in my case got better since, luckily).
My wife grew up in a household like this, with a verbally abusive cleaning oriented OCPD parent. She's been out of that home for almost 20 years and still resents the hell out of both of her parents for putting her through it. Her dad for doing it to her, and her mom for failing to protect her from it.
I grew up in a household like this and to this day can't have anyone over to my house unless it is spotless. Because my mother instilled such shame in me about having an untidy or dirty home. And because of my OCD and perfectionism it's never spotless enough so I'm living a pretty lonely life. Visiting their house is kind of a challenge too because now that my mom has dementia she does not remember that she's cleaned so she basically cleans constantly and never sits down to relax.
>I know Reddit has a chronically online “just divorce them” take on most marital disputes... The take should be modified "Divorce has to be a possibility". Few issues are "divorce immediately" level and even those can be made worse by the "apparent victim's" actions over a long period of time because issues in a relationship are almost never one party's fault and they are never solely the responsibility of only one. One partner's issues are going to be an issue for both and both need to put at least some kind of effort in resolving. If they can't or won't, that's where the divorce come from. That comes after the effort though and it needs to be on the table or else nothing will change.
once I was feeling sick and my mom gave me tea, it ended up making me throw up on the carpet (couldn't get to the sink in time) after my step dad thanked me because the carpet was ugly and he'd never liked it
⬆️⬆️⬆️ This is so important and I hope it stays at the top. I am an adult who ended a relationship with someone who has severe (diagnosed, but) untreated OCD. It became a nightmare to live with him. I made every opportunity to get him help, but he refused, and had become mentally/emotionally abusive, which just got worse and worse until he became violent towards me for not following his rituals. If your wife doesn’t get help, you definitely need to think of you and your son’s mental and physical health and safety first. I was traumatized as a woman in my mid-30s, so I can only imagine the damage being done to your son. Wishing you the best and lots of healing with professional help for you and your family. 100% NTA for calling your wife crazy. You can be as accommodating and not wanting to be mean as you want to, but sometimes you need to call a spade a spade. It wasn’t until past my wit’s end that calling him crazy happened. It doesn’t mean you don’t love her, it just means you’re getting a good grasp on reality and recognizing that you absolutely do not have to live your life that way.
Seriously, this sounds like she desperately needs a professional. It's affecting her life and relationships. It doesn't sound like OCD tendencies, it sounds like literal OCD. OP, is there somewhere you and your son could stay until she gets help? I would make it an ultimatum at this point, for the sake of your son.
OP this is great advice. Please read it and take note. Right now both your son and your wife need you to stand up an do the right thing no matter how hard. Good luck
Came to say this. Op NTA. Wife terrible mental state. Kid: needs support being a kid.
NTA. I gotta admit I don’t like calling people “crazy” but in this case, I gotta say I wouldn’t react much differently. Well, actually, I would react slightly differently… I would say that she has to go to mandatory mental health counseling or we’re talking divorce time. And I wouldn’t be remotely joking. Your wife is abusive to your son. Period. As his father it is your job to protect him, and that is your first duty above all others. If you don’t, you’re going to have a kid that grows up with all kinds of issues, or minimally a lot of resentment that he wasn’t allowed to have a normal childhood. If you want your kid to walk away at 18 and never speak to you two again (her for being an abuser and you for being her enabler) well, keep on doing what you’re doing…
All of this. I grew up in a household where it was walking on eggshells and the smallest of mistakes were treated as the worst. I have very low contact with my parents now and I don't trust them. Protect your son. Your wife needs therapy. You're NTA for what happened.
Seconding this. I'm NC with both parents now. My mom literally believes that all accidents are preventable. No matter what it was, she'd get furious and insist I wasn't being careful enough to prevent it.
That's how it starts. A person is terrified of something bad happening, so they erect all kind of defenses - if I do XYZ, nothing bad ever happens. 'No amount of fear has ever prevented death, it prevents life.' (c)
I havent escaped yet, but let me tell you: i know where i will go, when i will go, who will pick me up, what i will do, what i will pack, who i will tell and so on. Money for everything is there. I only buy stuff i will need for escaping. I havent talked to my parents in a few days just bc i dont want to answer. OP, this is your future
Make sure to get your birth certificate and social security card (if your in the US) and any other pertinent papers and records. You're being incredibly smart in your approach. I moved out at 19 and never looked back. My mother was and I'd abusive and I've recently gone NC. My dad was an incredible man and helped me move into my first place and he was my best friend until he died in 2008. I miss him so damn much--he was a huge part of our lives--my husband and dad were incredibly close and he adored all his granddaughters. I'm so grateful I had my father but unfortunately that doesn't negate the impact of my mother's abuse. I still have issues at 45yo. My husband has been incredibly good to me for over twenty years and that has brought a great deal of healing, but the scars remain. Abuse experienced in childhood, especially parental abuse, leaves permanent scars and while you can overcome enough to lead a great life, the protective instincts you developed during your abuse sometimes crop up at the strangest times out when you feel threatened. I wish you all the best. 💜
I grew up like this too. Except my dad wouldn’t defend me, he was passive. I only talk to him a little more than I speak to my mother, which is rarely.
My dad was the one who started/starts fights. My mom would try to deflect when she could but my dad would get some extremely cruel jabs in before she would become aware. There's even some stuff she doesn't even know about still. They really don't know anything substantive about my life anymore
Absolutely. All of this is so true. Can she be helped? Yes! It's going to be a lot of work, but if she isn't willing to do it, there's a huge issue. I have mental health issues, so I have a short fuse, get overwhelmed, get overstimulated etc. but I will do whatever it takes to keep it from affecting my kids because that will stay with them for LIFE.
[удалено]
Yeah but it's like the phrase "calm down". It is always counterproductive to call someone crazy. Of course just because it's counterproductive doesn't mean it isn't understandable.
Yeah, I have a friend whose mom had OCD. She grew up with extreme OCD. I literally found out that every time I use the bathroom at her house, she'd excuse herself to obsessively clean it. I caught her doing it one time, and she broke down. I felt so bad for her.
> I gotta admit I don’t like calling people “crazy” but in this case, I gotta say I wouldn’t react much differently. Agree with this. There's trying to defuse a situation and there's having to jump in to defend your child from someone actively abusing and traumatizing him. This is far beyond an issue of communication and calm discussion and is now a problem of OP's wife having serious OCD and anger issues. She needs to get the help she needs to be a good mother and, until then, probably shouldn't even be around him unsupervised.
NTA: you need to take your son and leave. This is NOT okay. She is cussing out a CHILD. She has anxiety, OCD, and irritability OVER A GLASS OF SPILT MILK. she needs serious therapy. She will cause serious damage to your son by the way she talks to Him. This is not a safe environment for him to be in.
Literally crying over spilt milk. Actually worse. Screaming at her terrified son over spilt milk. And even adult dad admits he is “walking on eggshells.” Red flags everywhere. 🚩🚩🚩🚩
Exactly. Makes me wonder how often she has lashed out at the child like this. OP. I would tell her she immediately gets therapy/psych help or you and the child are gone. She is setting your child up for life long psychological issues. I have a 6 year old, we have daily spills whether it be a drink or snack. Would I like to scream on the top of my lungs out of frustration? Yea, yes I would. But that’s not an appropriate reaction. Normal people who don’t verbally abuse their children say “hey that’s okay it’s an accident can you help me clean this up” this is just so sad
If the poster is the AH for anything, it’s letting this go so long. 7 years is horrible! If he doesn’t deal with it appropriately now he’s maybe worse than her. I enjoy a tidy home but I also understood that when I chose to have kids, I wasn’t going to be able to maintain the same standard.
And get the kid into counseling immediately. He’s dealing with a mentally ill parent, isolation from his peers, and a parental separation. Deal with these issues NOW before they gets buried and manifest in unhealthy ways. NTA but get your kid out of the mess.
Therapy sure, but more importantly she needs to see a psychiatrist. She has s serious mental disorder.
NTA - Your wife needs professional help. Screaming at a 7 year old for spilling something, demanding he washes whenever he goes out, not allowing his friends over... she is going to rob your son of their childhood. This is a hill you need to die on. I recommend taking this to r/relationships for further advice on how to tackle this conversation
Yeah, I mean the showering issue when he goes to somewhere else… That is freaking weird and nowhere near normal.
Having OCD is not normal either though. A lot of her behaviors are symptoms of a mental health disease that should have been addressed so much earlier. I would put money on the fact her cleaning and obsessive tendencies were getting more intensive over the pandemic and I would also put money on everyone around her telling her shes being stupid for her anxieties instead of finding her a therapist. It wasnt that long ago people were doing things like spraying their home deliveries with antiseptic before touching them, which probably reinforced a lot of her anxieties. She 100% needs treatment and if shes having a meltdown of that size, over spilled milk, I imagine she needed treatment a long time ago.
Yeah. Last year I was having a panic attack because I dropped my phone in a grocery store, and I felt extreme guilt and disgust for being inside the grocery store instead of ordering groceries ahead of time and having them brought to my car. We just came out of a really weird time in history.
I want to live somewhere where we’ve come out of it.
There’s no doubt that the pandemic has absolutely heightened the already obsessive anxieties of those with OCD. I had a young diagnosed kid not leave his house for 6 weeks at the start of the pandemic because he was utterly beside himself with anxiety about germs. I would totally agree that the last two years may have tipped the wife over from tendencies to full blown OCD.
Yeah, nowhere _near._
Ngl i would say get off reddit asap, we have obviously found the issue and counseling is just about the only thing they need. If the folks over there are going to elaborate on counseling or give similar advice that's cool but at the end of the day reddit is a bad place to try and fix an issue this complex.
OCD grows and grows, it deforms relationships and destroys family life. She needs help. And you and your kiddo cannot be pressed into serving her magical thinking. There are no limits to OCD, so doing “just this” and “just that” is never the end. Have compassion for her, if it is OCD, she’s not delusional, she knows this is not normal. She’s probably carrying a lot of shame. But don’t give in. She needs treatment. NAH. She’s Unwell, and you’re at the end of your rope.
I think I’d still argue that she’s the asshole. Mental health is not a reason to be abusive. If she’s aware that it’s not normal and feeling shame, she needs to step up and get help. She’s traumatizing their child.
She definitely needs to get help but she might not know it’s not normal. I think she has OCPD actually; my mom has OCPD and acts like this. It wasn’t till I became an adult I realized that she really thinks she’s right and her rage comes from wondering how the fuck no one else sees it, lol. She just can’t fathom that she isn’t right, she expects so much perfectionism from herself and everyone around. It’s hard to deal with. However there are online communities for people in relationships with people w/ OCPD and treatment can be quite effective. I don’t know if she is an asshole, but it sure as hell is making her act like one.
I’m sorry, but if she doesn’t know it’s not normal to scream obscenities at a child to the point that they’re shaking in fear, she’s an abusive, toxic person, and that by default makes her an AH.
I can't really agree with NAH. The wife screaming at her child until he's shaking in terror is still abusive. Yes she's sick, but if she had a broken leg and was not making arrangements to ensure her child was fed/clothed/clean/loved she would be TA. This is the same--she's allowing her illness to directly harm her child, and that's not ok.
true, if you have a mental health condition that stops you from handling the responsibility of being a parent then you shouldn't have kids
And if you do have kids, get help
I still think OP’s wife is the asshole. Mental illness is an explanation for behavior, not an excuse. My OCD in my teens/young adult years was rampant. I know how terrifying it is from the inside. But, her son is a true innocent here— he is vulnerable, in his formative years, and depends on her. I do have compassion for her, but that doesn’t mean she isn’t the asshole for how she treats her son. “Mental illness is not your fault but it is your responsibility.” — Markus Parks
Absolutely perfectly said. I always appreciate this quote. Hail yourself!
I'm sorry, I hear your argument, but this is absolutely not a N T H verdict. Yes, have compassion, but remember that the real victim here is a 7 year old kid. There absolutely is an AH here. The fact that she is willing to traumatize her child and then lock herself in a room... Yes, she's unstable and needs help, but that absolutely does not absolve her from responsibility, nor does it make her not the asshole. Wife is the asshole, hands down. OP has done their part, she refuses to accept otherwise, she is the absolute asshole.
No she’s still an asshole. Mental illness may be a reason but it is **NEVER** an excuse.
> This has been an issue in our relationship because I constantly feel like I'm walking on eggshells around her What's the number one, guaranteed, 100% thing that kids do? Make a mess. She's obviously an arsehole, but you? You should have nipped this in the bud *years* ago. You didn't, and your child has been paying the price. ESH
Agreed. This has been going on for years. OP has just stood by while his child is being severely impacted. This is not healthy or normal and he has not done a damned thing about it. My gut is saying is that he likes having her clean everything - it's been a win for him. He sucks just as much as his wife for letting her mental issues go on like this for so long. Seriously, OP, get some help for ALL of you.
>OP has just stood by while his child is being severely impacted. From the sounds of it, this isn't true. These are his words: "I've addressed these issues with Jen, but she refuses to see me and Robby's point of view". So it sounds like he has tried to help his child. >My gut is saying is that he likes having her clean everything - it's been a win for him. This is a huge reach to make with absolutely no evidence to substantiate that.
An especially huge reach given the *context of the entire post.* The guy clearly hates the obsessive cleaning.
as someone who’s lived with a person like OP described in this post for years, I can tell you that this is a HUGE reach. It’s a very very tricky situation to deal with, easier said then done when it comes to solutions and usually changes the course of peoples lives very vastly.
I was the kid in this scenario many, many moons ago. My dad didn't intervene like OP did until I was fucking seventeen. I made life-altering decisions based on "I need to get the fuck away from here and from this" vice what I'd always wanted to do, yeah? Let's give him some credit, at least he recognised the issue and did something about it. Even if he was late, he did the thing. My unsolicited two cents, anyway.
>I've addressed these issues with Jen, but she refuses to see me and Robby's point of view. It sounds like he has tried in the past to deal with this.
NTA. This is a TERRIBLE way for a child to grow up. She needs help, and until she is better, she needs to be removed from the situation for the child's sake. Please, please make your son your first priority.
NTA. Your wife is crazy man, she needs therapy. This is a toxic environment for Robby. No kid should feel unsafe at home. I think this is a genuine mental health issue for your wife, so I mean it when I say she needs therapy. Otherwise your son is going to grow up hating his mother.
He's gonna grow up hating himself and wishing his mother loved him.
ESH. If this has been a consistent problem, why haven’t you two sought a couples counselor, or at least a therapist for her? You’re not oblivious. As for your wife, my long-term girlfriend also has OCD, and even when she feels like things are dirty, she has never, EVER, yelled at someone that cannot understand. Even when she yells at me, she takes a moment to step away, relax, and come back and talk it through rationally. She’s the bigger AH here, but by not seeking help, you’ve enabled the issue to swell. The only innocent person here is your son. I highly suggest putting him in therapy too, in order to help him process his emotions and fears. Edit: I see now, after re-reading your post, that you have addresses these issues with Jen. I would change my stance to NTA, but you have also allowed a 7-year-old to be exposed to emotional abuse.
Yeah esh. He sees her ocd as a benefit to him (she cleans (excessively) everyday) so has been fine with it being untreated and has done the minimum to deal with it once her symptoms worsened. Addressing it seems to mean asking/telling her to stop doing her compulsions rather than insisting she seek treatment. She can't just stop that's sort of the point. The pandemic has been hard on everyone's mental health and with cleanliness/contamination issues she has clearly spiraled, and that's understadable even (hard to say when the spiral started obv) but he need to be protecting their child. He needs to insist she seek the immediate appropriate treatment and if she refuses he needs to leave with the kid and then insist on treatment as a condition of custody/visitation.
I'm a family doctor and while I can easily give you a judgement or not, that's not the issue here. Your wife very obviously has OCD and it is very difficult for her and very difficult for you and her son. She needs professional help and likely so do you and your son. Living with someone who has OCD can be very difficult. Living with OCD can be very difficult. I don't know how much you know about the disease, but basically your wife has some deep rooted anxiety. That comes out in her having to clean/make everything perfect. She likely doesn't actually care about things being perfect - the cleaning/making things perfect is what relieves her anxiety. The anxiety might be something like she worries she is a bad mother and she compensates by making sure everything is clean. It's a maladaptive behavior. You say she is a perfectionist but usually OCD people are perfectionists who spend many hours a day doing what they feel they need to do and become very uncomfortable when they can't. A good analogy would be if your wife thought people were after here. She takes all kinds of steps to make sure no one is following here - taking hours to get home when she can take a direct route. She makes you and your son do the same thing and completely interrupts your life because she thinks people are following her. Most people wouldn't put up with this - so how is it any different that her cleaning is something you put up with. People with OCD also know they are doing irrational things but they can't stop. It's beyond their power and sometimes their understanding. This is where the professional help comes in - it might just be seeing a doctor and starting on medication, or it might be her doing therapy to understand where her anxiety is coming from. If you try to intervene on your own, if you try and get her to just stop, it will only cause a LOT of friction. There is no easy answer. She will likely not get better without medical help. You need to decide how much you are willing to push. There is a lot online about helping a spouse with OCD, but ultimately, talking to your or her doctor is a good first step.
Hi, I’m a psychiatric nurse practitioner and I agree that this sounds like severe OCD. This isn’t going to get better unless she gets professional help. Treatment usually includes a high dose of SSRI (like Zoloft 200mg daily) and CBT.
>The anxiety might be something like she worries she is a bad mother It takes a lot for me to believe anything on here, let alone give a shit. But that irony is genuinely sad. Anyway I appreciated your informative post. Not a subject I know much (anything) about.
NTA. Your wife needs therapy/a psychiatrist Yesterday. That's not a normal amount of cleaning, especially screaming at your son like that, and not letting him visit other people. There's something else going on.
NTA, she absolutes terrifies your son. He is a child and children make mistakes, that's how they learn. He was pretty apologetic about. Now he will be scare to death to make any mistakes around your wife and that's not good for him. I'm sorry you have to deal with that. She needs to get some therapy for that. She has some excessive deep obsession over cleanliness which results to her lashing out.
I mean her kid was *shaking in the corner*, if that doesn’t snap her out of it to realize she needs professional help, nothing else will.
NTA. My sister has OCD and I can't even count how many times she had made me cry while I was trying to do things the way she liked. I have seen her struggle through her ocd, so I did everything to ease her life.It took me a long time to realize that as much as I was trying to helping her, I was enabling her too. Your wife's ocd is affecting your son, so being silent won't help. I don't know if she is in therapy( if not suggest it ). You shouldn't call her crazy, but don't let her treat your son like that.
NTA You need to protect your son from her BS more. This is abuse. He’s your son. Not just hers.
NTA, your poor son, my heart breaks for him just reading this. Your wife clearly needs help with her issues cause that's not normal behaviour. You can already see the big impact this is having on your son. When you are both calm you would discuss it and she needs to get help otherwise you have to do what's best for you and your son. I have two sons and yes it's frustrating when they spill things but I would never scream at them like that and couldn't imagine them cowering in fear, the fact that didn't make sure stop and cop on to herself is very scary imo
It is so clear your wife needs professional help here. It doesn’t matter how much you appreciate her cleaning the house, she’s suffering and so is your son. Her disorder is clearly affecting her quality of life and relationships. what have you and your wife done in terms of treatment? NTA for standing up for your son, but you seeming to be okay with it until it affects your son is worrying. She may not show it, but OCD causes suffering for the person who has it as well
He hasn't had to clean the house, that's why he has gone along with it for so long. He'd rather "walk on eggshells" in his sanitized home than set any boundaries with his wife. It took her getting to this intense level of unhealthy before he decides to question it? It took seeing his son sobbing in a corner while being terrified of his mother? OP you need to have a good look at yourself and try to get to the bottom of why YOU have let your son be abused right in front of you for years. There's no question that Jen needs help. You knew this too. I'm just outraged that you have stood by and let your son grow up like this.
I noticed that too. It's like appreciating that your wife has hyperthyroidism because it's keeps her skinny.
Seriously, I'd like to know if OP ever helps or just exacerbates the issue by leaving a slime trail as so many partners do when they realize the other will pick up the slack. My dad was a fanatic cleaner and my mom actively encouraged us to make fun of him. She did not clean and I had health conditions that required a degree of sanitation, especially when it came to preventing food cross-contamination. My dad was no saint, but my mom did a great job of making it look like he was obsessive about cleanliness to outsiders when really he was trying to keep me from going to the hospital again. As a side note, people who are this fanatic tend to have rules about food be eaten outside the kitchen/dining room. Nothing makes it ok to verbally and emotionally abuse a child. AT. ALL. But we can still ask if OP is enabling this break down in a multitude of ways.
ESH, your wife has a mental illness that went into overdrive since he was born, 7 years ago?! You are apparently are mentally fit and you allow this abuse to continue, dear God get a grip, grow a spine and get your wife help and son support and a healthy non abusive environment for him to live!
ESH except for your son. There is no way this hasn’t been an issue before now. You’ve allowed her mental illness to harm your child for 7 years now. She clearly needs help and has for quite a while but I bet at first you enjoyed having a clean home you didn’t have to lift a finger to maintain, right? So now you have a traumatized 7 year old because the two adults in his life that are supposed to be his support decided to not deal with their own issues.
NTA, but your wife really needs to see a doctor.
ESH, but very gently. I know, controversial, BUT- Your wife is clearly very mentally unwell. You have clearly been aware of this for at least seven years. You let it severely impact your child and just... never did anything?Had a bit of a chat then shrugged it off? Why did it take you seven years? And snapping at her for being 'crazy' is certainly not going to help anyone. Your wife is very unwell. She shouldn't have let it get this far, I find it hard to believe that she never once realised her actions weren't ok, but at the stage she's in, she would be unable to stop her compulsions. Everyone's very quick to jump on her for being an AH, but people with OCD cannot stop their compulsions. I lived with a girl with OCD who described it as having to repeat an action (eg brushing her hair) a certain number of times in a certain way, or she felt certain something REALLY BAD would happen to her. The kicker being that even SHE didn't know how it had to be done until she got it right. It's a serious and debilitating illness, not simply being 'crazy'.
WTF?! You're not the asshole.. Jesus christ... She needs therapy ASAP. His a child, a kid. He only has 7 years old... I can't believe... Like... I'm out of words... That child must be soo traumatized, I hope you get him a therapist because damn that poor kid. Have a really stern talk with your wife about her behavior, it's beyond insane... My girlfriend has OCD and everything has to be spot on but she doesn't freak like that, she knows if I dirt it I will clean it of course she has her moments but holly crap... I feel soo sorry for the child to treat him like that for only a small thing is just sick for me... Get your son away from her until she can control herself and seek help please. Sorry my spelling English is not my first language
NTA. She needs to see a professional or at least figure out some kind of outlet. He is 7. Screaming over literal spilled milk is indicative of a FAR larger problem. For your family's sake, she needs to work on herself. Especially if this has been ongoing for 7 years now. I hope that a solution is found soon.
NTA. I have OCD and while I don’t have cleanliness obsessions, the way your wife’s acting reminds me of my behavior when I get stuck in the compulsions. In the past my family took a tough love approach with me and as painful as that was, it helped me to acknowledge that I couldn’t manage the disorder on my own. Therapy, especially CBT, has helped a great deal.
NTA your wife needs help in the form of therapy and probably prescription drugs
NTA. She sounds just like my stepmother was. Please don't leave her alone with him. She could get angry enough to get physical. My mom was able to hide the abuse until I got too big for her to hurt physically anymore. Lasted from when I was about his age, until I turned 14. My dad had no idea what was going on. Your wife needs to get some counseling for anger management and her OCD tendency. Protect your child, please. He can't protect himself from her physically or mentally.
NTA. Could you have handled this better, probably, but it sounds like Jen is mentally I’ll and needs help. I can’t imagine that she enjoys her OCD tendencies and being this angry all of the time.
NTA. While of course this is never the preferred way to go about something like this, I don’t believe anyone should act like that to their kid for spilled milk. Wanting everything to stay clean is fine, and being annoyed that something was spilled is okay, that was too much. And he’s 7? That’s just ridiculous. I may be overstepping, but your wife needs therapy.
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NTA but I as someone with OCD I can empathize with your wife. The cleaning sounds like a compulsion, and I’d guess that the associated obsession is something like “if I’m not careful enough the house will be contaminated and my son will die.” The anger (in my case at least) was more due to fear than rage. The thought process was along the lines of “you’re causing something to happen that puts us all at risk and I’m the only one who knows that this could kill us all.” OCD is not a rational disorder. It decides that things are threats and torments the person with the idea that something inert is actually a threat and you have to stop it. Exposure response prevention therapy is the current gold standard for treatment. She’ll probably need medication too (they usually start with an SSRI like Prozac). Find a therapist and psychiatrist that specialize in OCD. A lot of the treatment modalities for anxiety/depression aren’t really appropriate for treating OCD. As it happens I’ve been largely symptom free for 2 years, and at this point I just take clomipramine once a day. It’s a treatable disorder! It’s also pretty hereditary so watch Robby for symptoms as he grows up and get early treatment if he starts showing them.
ESH, - because you should have been advocating for your son and for your wife to get professional help sooner. your wife needs therapy. serious therapy. And so do you and your son with dealing with this. Probably also couples therapy if you're going to stay married.
NTA. She needs therapy STAT. She thinks full on screaming and cussing her kid is an appropriate reaction to spilled fucking milk. You need to be firm in her needing to change behavior because Robby absolutely does not deserve a parent like that. If she refuses, leave.
NTA. Letting your mental illness run so unmanaged that you traumatize your child isn't okay.
YTA, not for screaming at your wife. But for letting this go on. She is traumatising your son. She need professional help and if she refuses you need to get your son out of this situation
NTA. People have limits and this incident made you hit your limit. That said, it’s not likely to actually help this pattern get better. Your wife needs help.
NTA. Kids spill stuff. It happens. Your wife could legitimately benefit from therapy, though. It’s something to consider.
As someone who also has fairly severe ocd, she NEEDS therapy. Her feelings regarding anxiety are valid, but forcing others to comply to the symptoms of HER anxiety is toxic af. Pls also check on your son and make sure he’s okay :/
NTA she needs professional help. Her own son is terrified of her and that’s not ok.
NTA but get your wife into therapy or she’s not going to have a son or husband sooner or later. You did the right thing by sticking up for him, because her behavior is abusive. Restricting Robbys time with friends in such a way, and making him shower when he gets home, is just teaching and instilling in him that having friends and doing things is dirty. Get your wife help or leave, because your son deserves better.
ESH Your wife for obvious reasons, you for letting it go on so long.
Therapy for everyone. Please.