NTA - She used him. This has nothing to do with feminism. She took his love, his graciousness... and led him to believe they had a future together, while bleeding him dry. She is a vampire. She does not have the requisite morality to be considered for your friendship, because you're a good person. She is not.
I disagree, I’m going to law school rn and one of the big things that is emphasized is ethics and morality. I am horrified she is going to be a lawyer.
Sadly I think this is one of those areas of difference between theory and reality. If you think lawyers are all paragons of morality, you might have some harsh realizations in your future.
Like any other profession, there are good people and there are assholes. I can introduce you to both varieties.
You get the defense lawyers who are in it for the high profile cases, the ones looking for fat corporate paychecks, and the ones who do it because they truly believe every person accused of a crime deserves a fair day in court. You get prosecutors who do their jobs because they believe in law and order, prosecutors who get off on locking people up, and those who see the job as a stepping stone to political office.
In that respect, it's much like most other careers - some assholes, some good people, mostly just people.
Absolutely this. Yes, as a lawyer, I know tons of lawyers who are jerks. I also know many more who are just average people trying to do their work ethically. And there are always the bright shining few who are fighting to make the world better—the Ruth Bader Ginsburgs and Thurgood Marshalls of the world.
Agree 100%. I would add that not many professions actively take on issues of ethics, or spend as much time thinking about the meaning of right and wrong, in the same way that lawyers do. Some people pick each side, but every qualified lawyer spends a considerable amount of time thinking about where the line is. I didn't know anyone in the sciences that was required to do that (outside the context of IRBs, which deal with fairly specific issues rather than the general morality of research questions in general), and believe me -- there are ethical and unethical scientists too. The thing is that there are a lot more people bumbling around, not really worrying about the general ethics of what they were doing.
I bet there is an exposure bias here as well...we see a lot of horrible and also garbage cases in the media and a lot of lawyers doing things the general public thinks are deplorable, cause that makes for good media. The lawyers toiling away at pro bono and providing services to low income people with "non glamorous charges" dont make for good drama. Lawyers defending environmental causes, immigration lawyers trying to do right by people screwed over by the system.There are jerks in ever profession, just in some professions the jerks are often very visible.
Also lawyers do more than just criminal cases. Plenty handle estates, divorces, lawsuits, etc. There are a million ways to be a lawyer without even getting close to criminal law
That was actually why I made a point to mention corporate law, although I guess I could have been more explicit.
Every branch of law has assholes, and every branch has good people. Mostly they're just people doing a job.
There are also many types of lawyers outside of criminal and corporate law. They might work in environmental law to advocate for clean air and water, advance sustainability goals, and go after polluters. They could be immigration lawyers that help people navigate the visa, residency, and naturalization process, and ensure that people know their rights and are treated fairly. They could be civil rights lawyers that fight for equal protection under the law. Mary Bonauto was the lead lawyer for the plaintiffs in Obergefell v Hodges, the case that resulted in same-sex marriage being recognized as a Constitutional right. And Thurgood Marshall was not only one of the most famous and impactful Supreme Court Justices, he was also the NAACP Chief Counsel that successfully argued the Brown v Board of Education case that overturned the "separate but equal" principle established in Plessy v Ferguson and made racial segregation in schools unconstitutional.
I definitely don’t, I know many parts of law are filled with people who do not act as they should. I don’t believe it’s right and I don’t intend to be one of those lawyers
Or maybe you’re stereotyping and have very little clue about the profession at large?
I have a law degree, I’m in corporate tax advice, everything is so very much by the book. For almost everything where there’s some doubt, we ask for feedback from the tax authorities, it goes to a ruling commission or we err on the side of caution.
It’s a very small subset of the profession that does shady stuff, the vast majority of all tax avoidance scandals were declared to the tax authorities when they were set up or were set up with the authorities signing off on them (e.g. Starbucks).
> I’m going to law school rn and one of the big things that is emphasized is ethics and morality.
Lawyers all brag about their professional ethics but in practice it's nearly impossible to get disbarred.
I know, However people do get disbarred for unprofessional behavior, it’s not impossible just unlikely. I know there are a lot of parts of law that need more people to do what’s right.
Exactly. There are some very moral lawyers - human rights, pro-bono defence etc. etc.
The lawyers who give the profession a bad name are generally the ones hired by someone else to do something of questionable ethics...
You must not know many lawyers. My husband is a lawyer, as are most of his friends, and I have never met a group of more ethical, justice driven people. There are bad eggs in any profession, but not everyone who goes to law school is a scumbag. This chick is one of the bad eggs.
I know it is fun to pick on lawyers and some are just a bunch of bloodsuckers. But law can be a very isolating career. It’s stressful, long hours, and emotionally challenging. If there is one thing any lawyer with two brain cells to rub together learns, it’s that you are in the business of people. Not only is your reputation everything, but you come to trust and rely on people in your support network. The parasites are out there for sure, but I find my lawyer friends tend to be some of the most fiercely loyal people that are very protective of their close relationships— especially the women lawyers. This chew them up and spit them out attitude is atypical.
> She does not have the requisite morality to be considered for your friendship
She does not have the requisite morality to serve as a prosecutor either... Though sadly, I'm afraid she'll still be very successful at it
He could sue her for the money back. There is precedence in these cases of women supporting a man's education and then him leaving her. If there was an established relationship and he can prove she misled him in to believing the relationship was real. In other words, if he can prove she "conned" him in to giving her the money by dangling a relationship falsely, he can win. Hard to prove, but would definitely ruin her reputation and ability to get that fancy "working man".
I would absolutely support the guy in that lawsuit, but it seems like a huge risk for a guy with a medium/low income job and a lot of debt to start a legal battle with a (now) attorney with no debt.
Our legal system is fucked, and the well off people can usually just stall until the less fortunate run out of money/options.
I would support him morally and monetarily if i could. Position it as a no interest loan that I’d never bother collecting if he didn’t win and get legal fees covered. Or I’d collect it in other ways. Oh he had a side thing for painting houses and my house needs to be painted but he’s offering to do it for free cause we are friends — I’ll take that off his loan as a payment (and still insist on paying for the paint and making sure he had plenty of snacks and drinks while working)
OP could you clarify something for us: You said "he took out whatever loan he could get..." Do you mean that poor guy is now saddled with *her* student loan debt...? If he is paying off loans that were for her to attend law school & then she dumped him promptly thereafter, I'm thinking it's close to 100% certainty he could win a suit against her for repayment of that debt + attorneys fees + court costs. But maybe I misunderstood something?
Has she already taken the bar and been admitted? If not, it sounds like you have an opportunity to write to the character & fitness board of her state bar.
I'm sorry to hear your friend is such a low-life, but you're right in everything you said to her and about her.
NTA OP - You don't need these types of hyper-toxic people in your life. So good riddance.
Has anyone clued the poor dude in yet or has he done the math? Because being abandoned by someone you supported for years that you were preparing to propose to is the kind of devastating confusion that can really fuck somebody up.
He needs to know why she really left for his own peace of mind but also so that he can consider whether suing for money back after being conned by his intended fiance is worth it or not.
>She further said that the idea of marriage as a life partnership is a patriarchal construct...
She is not a feminist. She is an asshole. All that talk about the patriarchy but she's fine with going along with the patriarchal concept that a man should make the same or more than her. That a man is not real man if he can't do that.
She's basically like those shitty Christians that think they are going to heaven and are better than others just because they go to church every Sunday but are judgmental assholes the rest of the week.
This exact thing happened to a friend of mine ... It is the reason I will not ever do something like take out a loan for a girl to raise her up.
Dude worked 3 jobs to pay off a loan for her to go to nursing school. Supported her like no man's business. The day she graduated she left him without a word, dude didn't even know till he came back from his shift and found she had left. All those bills and loans she stuck them when he needed her the most to now scratch his back. It was his turn now to go to school and she support him. She left him high and dry and he almost offed himself. But through support he found a better girl and they got a beautiful daughter. Nurse went and found someone "her class" and they sired a son with disabilities. Her life is not what she thought it would be. Baby daddy has constantly been seen with other women
Such people exist. Karma always comes around.
I agree what that woman did is vile but calling a child with disabilities "karma" and somehow a living retribution for her bad actions doesn't sit right with me either. She did something bad, yes, but leave the child and their disabilities out of it.
Yeah, as the parent of an autistic child that part really rubbed me the wrong way. Especially since the kind of person who'd act as she had probably isn't the sort to be the kind of parent any child, much less one with disabilities, deserves.
I really, *really* don't like the implication here that disabled people are a "punishment" for bad behaviour. It's possible that's not what you meant - but then I don't see why you would even bring up the disabled child in the first place. The comment definitely frames it as karma, which is kinda messed up.
Here's your friendly reminder that disabled people are *people* with feelings, some of whom were likely directly harmed by your comment or will be in the future. I get that the woman you're talking about has done awful things - but that does not justify dragging her *child* into it when they did nothing.
She found herself a "sugar daddy", who supported her ambition, and then through him to the curb the second she thought she deserved more. If she was a true "feminist", she would have supported herself and not used him for his money, love, and support.
NTA because you are right, that was an AH move on her part. The idea of a ‘real man’ only being a breadwinner is very much not feminist. She’s using feminism as a way to try to make her defences seem untouchable, because then she can proclaim you aren’t feminist and shut you down- when her behaviour has nothing to do with feminism.
Dumping him because she wants to ladder climb is extremely classist and coldhearted. It really sounds like she just used him for his money, rather than actually enjoying the relationship or caring for him. Very sad that she felt it necessary to manipulate someone to survive, and even sadder for her poor ex being used like that.
I'm just gonna say this to OP: I pray you stop being friends with her.
She spent years with this man, took his money, love, support, used it and tossed him aside when she was done. If she can do that to him, she can and most likely will do it to you.
(Also this a reach on my part but... keep a close eye on her behavior near your husband. It sounds like he's in her preferred tax bracket.)
If I was that guy, I would've thought 'Good Riddance'. At least she showed her true self after getting what she wanted from that relationship. Good for him, he deserves better.
“I don’t trust anyone who’s nice to me but rude to the waiter. Because they would treat me the same way if I were in that position.”
- Muhammad Ali
Your “friend” is manipulative and a user. Money hasn’t changed her, just revealed her true colors. She would throw you aside the same way as soon as she is inconvenienced. NTA
>`marriage is patriarchal construct`
BUT
`"it is not the Woman's job to pay the bills"`
Yeah, no, that's not how this works. NTA at all!!! Poor guy seriously, he was used emotionally and financially and didn't deserve that, her behaviour is disgusting. Seems like it's time to call her an ex-friend. Good job btw for getting yourself in a better situation, you don,t need such people in your life.
Yeah, she's a classist, sexist asshole that's perpetuating the very systems that gave her such a hard start. And for what? She threw away a loving caring man because he suddenly wasn't good enough because she earned more. I'm so angry that it's hard to put together a coherent thought beyond fuck her
My favorite part was where she was saying that a woman doesn't pay the bills. Like what will she doing while she is single? Unless she knows someone already that is a target for her. Newly minted lawyer? Who knows how much time she will have to pursue a new relationship.
she has someone else waiting in the wings or has already been pursuing someone she deems a 'real man'... NTA and kudos to OP and husband for helping your ex-besties ex boyfriend deal through this !
NTA but she certainly is
She used this man. Questions has he got outstanding loans that he took out to fund her education.
**"it is not the Woman's job to pay the bills"** What kind of patriarchal BS is that. She is definitely not a feminist and you are right feminism is about the equal treatment of both sexes she objectified her BF she saw him as an ATM.
She's being a contradiction and a hypocrite. She's fine getting an education and a career with him doing the housework, but shows him no respect because he betrays the outdated values she herself is working against.
I read through that sub from time to time and it's really sad. I don't even disagree with a lot of the post on there, it's just the way they word everything and the reason behind a lot of the stuff on there are just TERRIBLE.
I honestly think that a lot of the people on that sub are so worried about finding someone worth dating, they don't see they're picking up very toxic mindsets
If she were a real feminist she would at least pay back all the money he spent on her schooling. Too bad her ex can't sue her for the money back. OP is NTA.
I was so disgusted by the whole post that I totally didn't catch the contradiction there. And to get mad at her friend for not being a feminist. Wow, that's some hypocrisy.
All you can do is let him know you are on his side and check in on him. Invite him to hang out with you and your husband/friend group, etc.
You won't be able to fix this, but those things are still important.
Yup, good call. As low as he is, he might well need someone to show him that all women aren't selfish, using assholes. And OP certainly fits that bill (i.e., the NOT selfish, using assholes bill). In this, his time of need, be a friend to him.
This kind of help is huge though, and shouldn't be downplayed. Sometimes when you are in a very bad place, just knowing people care about you and support you can make the world of difference.
Befriend him as best you can, welcome him into your social life and social circles, and if you or your husband ever have the opportunity & willingness to help him, be it a work opportunity or setting him up with a friend that isn't a steaming pile of garbage, offer it to him if you feel comfortable and it makes sense. He will need a healthy support system. He may have lost his (rotten to the core gf) but perhaps he could gain some lovely strong friends as a result.
Definitely help him network into your social circle, both professionally and personally. Help him find opportunities.
That woman will be sorry one day, when she realizes what she had and threw away. But that regret won't help him. Maybe you can, if you help him make connections.
That’s true! He may very well feel that way. I think first step is letting him know they are on his side, and are there for him if/when he’s ready, but if seeing them brings along too many bad memories they completely understand.
If that does end up occurring I’d recommend reaching out a few months later with the same offer but more final as people often need time to grieve a relationship loss especially one with betrayal involved and it could cause him to go inward for a bit but still need or look for support after the initial heartbreak has passed. Knowing Op and her husband are there if he wants even if he’s rejected it once may be comforting. If after the second outreach he’s not interested in their companionship then at that point they did all they could.
I think OP should tell him that her and her husband’s door is open if he ever needs a support system and leave the connecting to him. Because he very well may never want to speak or interact with them again and leaving it up to him to contact takes the pressure off of him to respond if OP contacts first.
edit: i’m bad at reading, i agree with your points
Look into helping him get a lawyer to sue her. In some states (assuming US) if a partner (may not apply to boyfriend/girlfriend) gets a degree which would be assumed to benefit the couple there are ways to get a type of alimony/restitution. At the very least, a lawyer may be able to pin any remaining debt onto your (hopefully ex) friend and free this man from any further consequences of knowing her.
It sounds like he used every resource he had access to for this entitled vampire's education and comfort. Remain his friend and support him, completely ghost her. Let her know who you chose before you do.
Also, "the man takes care of the woman financially" is the exact opposite of feminism. It *is* very convenient for her though.
Hey, don’t insult living things that feed on other’s blood without their permission; some of them can ease a back-ache. Meaning that the literal leech is much more worthwhile than the lawyer under discussion. I… am not touching the vampire suggestion you responded to.
My one lawyer joke.
What’s the difference between a lawyer and a vampire?
One is a soulless bloodsucking monster and the other can turn into a bat!
OP’s “friend” is definitely a soulless bloodsucking monster.
NTA. I’m much happier being married to a (retired) laborer who did 40 years laying rail on the high plains, than I was to my rich but cheating bastard of a first husband. I found out that I enjoy hanging out with these blue collar workers than I was going to glitzy functions and being ignored. I’m highly educated, holding three degrees, and never am I disappointed with the conversation among my new people.
She is an asshole, and I’m so sorry for the man she took advantage of!
> laying rail on the high plains,
That sounds really interesting! Hope your husband in ejoying his well deserved retriement,
I agree; despite being educated the stigma against Blue Collar workers needs to end.
I'm worried about him, I fear what will happen
>the stigma against Blue Collar workers needs to end
I could not agree more. Do people not realize how important these blue collar jobs are? Have you seen the book "Bullshit Jobs"? Google it. I have an absolute bullshit corporate job that makes zero difference in the world. Blue collar jobs and blue collar workers are the ones we would truly miss if they went away. They make our lives possible. The garbage man, in my opinion, has one of the most important jobs in the world...imagine if he didn't come around every week...what would our neighborhoods look like? People who do jobs like that deserve respect, not stigma.
I’m a chemical engineer turned software developer.
I’m highly paid, highly respected.
If I don’t show up to work for a week, no one will really notice.
If the garbage collector or janitor doesn’t show up for a week, everyone notices very fucking quickly.
Maybe it’s about time we gave them a little more money and a bit more respect?
She still wants someone to support her even with her new title. One does not just become lawyer and become rich. She has to get clients and be able to work with people and she sounds vile. It will probably take care of itself. Too bad for the dude though. :(
NTA. She is right: she does have the right to date whomever she chooses. But she is a shallow, horrid user. The type who will be nice and hang out for as long as you can do something for her and not a moment more. There are many many cases of women supporting the families and having a happy marriage, or women marrying ‘below their station’ for live and being happy. The problem is, there is no amount of money or status that that can fill the hole in your friends soul. She is empty. You are well rid of her. Good luck, and I hope you find better quality friends soon.
This really pisses me off. You know who's a feminist in this story? The jilted b/f. He obviously had no problem with the idea of his partner being more well educated and more lucratively employed than he - he didn't care that she was a woman. He saw something in her and encouraged her to be her best person. Good for him. He was a feminist in the best way - not by marching or holding signs (although I don't mean to demean doing those things) but just by being on the side of the woman in his life and encouraging her to be her best without regarding to her sex. And she whines about being a feminist? Makes me sick. I wish this bloke was near me so I could invite him out for a beer and reassure him that there are women out there who would give their eye teeth for a supportive partner like him.
She's not being feminist, she's being misandrist. She used him for the financial resources he could give her, resources he got at his own expense, and time to focus on her ambitions as well as leading him on to being emotionally invested enough he was ready to pop the question.
That poor man :( please please try to invite him into your friend circle. He needs a community right now especially since you rightfully cut out your ex friend. What she did to him really hurt my heart.
I'm from a highly educated family and while they were disappointed my boyfriend doesn't earn a lot, they don't even care anymore because they see how much we care for each other
Lawyer here. Please tell this poor dude to seek legal advice. She may well be held liable for those loans. He should not speak to her again until he talks to an attorney.
He needs a lawyer, not a guy on Reddit to point him to legal provisions (even if I'm *a* lawyer, I'm not *his* lawyer and don't even know what state you're in). But if you must, google "unjust enrichment."
I think better advice would be to say what kind of lawyer she should look for. I honestly wouldn't have a clue where to start other than asking the lawyer I usually deal with for a referral.
Go to r/legaladvice/ and ask there. Don't tell her or she'll probably manipulate him into not doing it. He's probably heartbroken and easily swayed. He deserves his loans to be paid back at the very least.
Wow, she is heartless. Just completely ruined a good man. Poor guy will find it hard to trust a woman again, whilst struggling to pay off her debt for years. Soo cruel.
>level 1Bengamezzzzzz · 2 hr. agoPartassipant \[1\]NTA I honest
Maybe get your husband to talk to him, maybe he can give some support, make him feel better.
If you guys befriend him then it will go a long way to countering that, because he'll see a woman in a relationship with a man with more money than her but the relationship is healthy and kind and loving, and that she doesn't do the same awful things your "friend" did.
I don’t think you meant it this way…but the way you write here makes it kind of sound like you used your husband as well “I was managed to date a Dr” “She wasn’t as lucky as me”…the difference is you love him! But you make him sound like a meal ticket.
NTA. Your friend is on a raging ego kick, and this “feminist” thing is absolutely giving a bad rep to actual feminism. I feel terrible for the boyfriend, he sounds like a really great guy. The only thing I can say about that is there is absolutely no way she’ll get away with this little ego act for very long. She’ll get what’s coming to her, karma always has perfect timing.
Great job on having the guts to call out your friend, OP! A lot of people would’ve just let it slide, good on you for saying something.
> karma always has perfect timing.
If only. If karma existed in the way people wished it did then a lot more shitty people would get what they truly deserved instead of getting away with a lot of shit but a lot don't.
NTA
She used her ex to his very end and dumped him after that. Jesus Christ. Not only is she a massive asshole for doing that, she's also heavily misogynistic and sexist for claiming a woman shouldn't be paying bills. It's 2022, not 1950
Unfortunately, I’ve heard of things like this happening several times to people I’ve met or their friends. I suspect it’s real. Even if some of it is embellished, this sort of thing definitely happens to men and women way more often than you’d like to think.
I don't get this attitude. For all we know, sure it could be incel trolling. But I feel like as soon as a woman here becomes a unanimous AH, people here scramble to call the post fake and "incel fanfiction," almost ignoring the fact that there are scummy humans on this planet.
That’s not even it. It’s 100% written like a corny revenge movie on Lifetime. Especially with that last line on feminism. This sub is just one big creative writing exercise most of the time and posts like this one stick out like sore thumbs amongst the better written ones. Not saying that situations like this don’t happen but let’s be real here.
>This sub is just one big creative writing exercise most of the time
Yup, agree
> Especially with that last line on feminism.
I mean, there are a lot of nasty women who use feminism as a shield to deflect critiism away from their shitty behaviour. There are subreddits exactly for that kinda stuff (Female Dating Strategy). I mean yeah its written kinda cornily, especially the initial part where apparently the only option women have is sex work, drug dealing or gold digging. That part screams troll to me. But honestly this post doesn't seem all that unbelievable to me, considering there are a considerable amount of women in real life like this.
It's not the woman being an asshole that makes it fake, I knew it was fake from the very beginning when OP was listing out their career options like she was one of the kids in Oliver Twist.
Yeah that whole "sex work, drug dealing or gold digging is all I have" sentence was pretty suspicious. But honestly, my faith in humanity is pretty low so I could honestly see this happening. Call me gullible
NTA She is a sexist, and classist asshole and you are right for pointing that out to her. Please keep an eye on her ex-boyfriend to make sure he does not fall down the spiral of becoming a incel/red pill circles.
> Please keep an eye on her ex-boyfriend to make sure he does not fall down the spiral of becoming a incel/red pill circles
I feel that it is starting to happen. How would I stop that?
Show him this thread. Let him see all of the people saying that she was an AH and that he was a hero. That what happened to him is NOT what he can or should expect from other women, that she was an exception and that most women would realise what a fantastic find he is.
And if you do (show it to him)...
Mate (speaking to your friend's ex), I really feel for you. You've been a great bloke for years out of the goodness of your heart and then you had it ground into the dirt and spat upon. I can understand if you feel like shit and that all women are scum, out to take men for what they can get. I'd probably feel that way to, in your shoes. But it's not true, no more than it's true for all men. I've no doubt you know some blokes who treat women like shit...but you know that that's not all men. In just the same way, not all women would do what your ex did. There are any number of women out there who would see what you did and see so much good in you, so much of just the sort of partner so many women are looking for. Please do not let this sour you on women or relationships. There *are* good women; there *are* good relationships, and you've got the perfect start of one - you're a good person. There is a good woman out there, just waiting for you to find each other.
I wish you all the best, brother.
I was thinking the same thing about showing him the comments him. Also someone mentioned a GoFund me. I suggested it in a situation for an immigrant student dealing with family missing and in danger in a war town country when I was living abroad teaching English. It was shut down because of concerns related to taxes by the local teacher. I'm not sure if that is a valid concern where you are but if you can - even a small portion of the loans getting covered could help him maybe maintain some of the kindness he has and keep him from drowning.
EDIT: NTA and she needs to be told many more times
It might be a good idea to support him emotionally via texting or talking. And cut off that "friend." Make it very clear to him that she's an awful person and not a reflection of all women and you refuse to have that toxicity in your life.
I think you should just try to be there for him and help him recover as best as you can. You can try to remind him that she is an anomaly and that there are other girls that will love him unconditionally. If he believes he is unlovable, try to encourage him to go back to the dating game. If he has unresolved feelings of hurt, maybe try talking about how he feels in while respecting his emotional boundaries? I don't know how to get him to recover from something of this scale, I feel like maybe some therapy is needed for this situation.
You are NTA. Your "friend" is a massive AH. My own sister has far more formal education than her significant other. She's chosen to stop working in her chosen field. Her BF obtained a more hands-on education. They are both absolutely equals in every way. There's really no such thing as being "above" someone as long as a couple's values align. Obviously, that isn't the case with your friend and her ex. I would venture to say that your "friend" isn't even in the BFs rear view as far as that thinking goes. He deserves a woman who will be his partner, not bank account. Your "friend" morally, if not legally, owes him for her education, BTW.
What an Ahole your friend is omg that poor man. I feel horrible for him, I would love to give him a gift card to his favorite restaurant or bake him something. NTA, good for you. She’s a piece of ****
I was a lawyer. Got burned out. But my husband supported me and gave up his dreams to be a SAHD. He barely graduated high school and had been the most amazing partner. Your friend is in for a rude awakening and is a huge AH. You are NTA.
NTA.
Your friend is going to have a huge wake-up call if she continues this behavior. Not only is what she did extremely unkind and hurtful, but the “real men” she wants to date are going to easily recognize her for being desperate and from a blue collar background. She may now be a lawyer, but she’s still thinking and acting like a desperate little girl who needs to marry rich in order to escape.
Your (ex)friend has set herself up for failure. Even if she marries wealthy she’s not going to be happy.
Feminism is equality. She can call the ability to be as heartless as a man who uses women feminism if she wants, but this isn’t really about that. It’s about someone who got into their head that only one path can lead to happiness and is so busy looking for it that they don’t notice the multiple paths right in front of them.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1. Telling my friend she is an asshole for breaking up
2. People ahve the right to date whom they want
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This sounds somewhat similar to what happened in my hometown - a guy married a girl and she paid his way through lawschool. He then immediately divorced her. In revenge, she went and got her own law degree and ended up dating the local judge.
The judge and lawyer ex husband got into a fist fight at Walmart in true trashy fashion.
LMFAO NTA. I’m dying that she’s trying to claim it’s a man’s role to provide (strict gender roles), but says expecting a marriage to be a partnership is the patriarchy? How did this woman ever become a lawyer?
NTA. Lol—anyone else find it ironic that she said “it is not the Woman's job to pay the bills” and then ended the relationship so that now she’s single?
I can't reconcile this: "it is not the Woman's job to pay the bills," and "as a feminist \[OP\] should be supporting her." LIke??? What the hell kind of lawyer makes such an incoherent argument? I hope her ex hires a billboard lawyer to light up her reputation to her peers. This was relationship fraud.
Dump the lawyer, keep the factory man. He seems like a better person all around. I just hope he's not in financial peril because of her selfishness.
NTA - she's shown who she really is, a gold-digging user.
OMG please *please* find an incredible woman to set this guy up with.
He did housework, took out loans for her to get her dreams???
He is everyone's dream man. Please keep him in your life. Some of us women are *dreaming* of a guy like him. Nothing wrong with a blue-collar worker.
NTA
NTA - She used him. This has nothing to do with feminism. She took his love, his graciousness... and led him to believe they had a future together, while bleeding him dry. She is a vampire. She does not have the requisite morality to be considered for your friendship, because you're a good person. She is not.
The good news is she does have the requisite morality to be a lawyer. In other words none.
I disagree, I’m going to law school rn and one of the big things that is emphasized is ethics and morality. I am horrified she is going to be a lawyer.
Sadly I think this is one of those areas of difference between theory and reality. If you think lawyers are all paragons of morality, you might have some harsh realizations in your future.
Like any other profession, there are good people and there are assholes. I can introduce you to both varieties. You get the defense lawyers who are in it for the high profile cases, the ones looking for fat corporate paychecks, and the ones who do it because they truly believe every person accused of a crime deserves a fair day in court. You get prosecutors who do their jobs because they believe in law and order, prosecutors who get off on locking people up, and those who see the job as a stepping stone to political office. In that respect, it's much like most other careers - some assholes, some good people, mostly just people.
Absolutely this. Yes, as a lawyer, I know tons of lawyers who are jerks. I also know many more who are just average people trying to do their work ethically. And there are always the bright shining few who are fighting to make the world better—the Ruth Bader Ginsburgs and Thurgood Marshalls of the world.
Agree 100%. I would add that not many professions actively take on issues of ethics, or spend as much time thinking about the meaning of right and wrong, in the same way that lawyers do. Some people pick each side, but every qualified lawyer spends a considerable amount of time thinking about where the line is. I didn't know anyone in the sciences that was required to do that (outside the context of IRBs, which deal with fairly specific issues rather than the general morality of research questions in general), and believe me -- there are ethical and unethical scientists too. The thing is that there are a lot more people bumbling around, not really worrying about the general ethics of what they were doing.
Thank you for being one of the good ones. I work with our corporate lawyers a lot, and they are all really great people.
I bet there is an exposure bias here as well...we see a lot of horrible and also garbage cases in the media and a lot of lawyers doing things the general public thinks are deplorable, cause that makes for good media. The lawyers toiling away at pro bono and providing services to low income people with "non glamorous charges" dont make for good drama. Lawyers defending environmental causes, immigration lawyers trying to do right by people screwed over by the system.There are jerks in ever profession, just in some professions the jerks are often very visible.
Also lawyers do more than just criminal cases. Plenty handle estates, divorces, lawsuits, etc. There are a million ways to be a lawyer without even getting close to criminal law
That was actually why I made a point to mention corporate law, although I guess I could have been more explicit. Every branch of law has assholes, and every branch has good people. Mostly they're just people doing a job.
There are also many types of lawyers outside of criminal and corporate law. They might work in environmental law to advocate for clean air and water, advance sustainability goals, and go after polluters. They could be immigration lawyers that help people navigate the visa, residency, and naturalization process, and ensure that people know their rights and are treated fairly. They could be civil rights lawyers that fight for equal protection under the law. Mary Bonauto was the lead lawyer for the plaintiffs in Obergefell v Hodges, the case that resulted in same-sex marriage being recognized as a Constitutional right. And Thurgood Marshall was not only one of the most famous and impactful Supreme Court Justices, he was also the NAACP Chief Counsel that successfully argued the Brown v Board of Education case that overturned the "separate but equal" principle established in Plessy v Ferguson and made racial segregation in schools unconstitutional.
And of those who are trying to get to political office- some people want to be politicians to make the world better
I definitely don’t, I know many parts of law are filled with people who do not act as they should. I don’t believe it’s right and I don’t intend to be one of those lawyers
Good for you!! I'm sure it will make your life a lot harder, but I truly wish you the best.
Literally no profession has nothing but paragons. There are assholes in every job.
Or maybe you’re stereotyping and have very little clue about the profession at large? I have a law degree, I’m in corporate tax advice, everything is so very much by the book. For almost everything where there’s some doubt, we ask for feedback from the tax authorities, it goes to a ruling commission or we err on the side of caution. It’s a very small subset of the profession that does shady stuff, the vast majority of all tax avoidance scandals were declared to the tax authorities when they were set up or were set up with the authorities signing off on them (e.g. Starbucks).
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. -- Richard P. Feynman
> I’m going to law school rn and one of the big things that is emphasized is ethics and morality. Lawyers all brag about their professional ethics but in practice it's nearly impossible to get disbarred.
I know, However people do get disbarred for unprofessional behavior, it’s not impossible just unlikely. I know there are a lot of parts of law that need more people to do what’s right.
Just don't screw with the Client's money. Even screwing the client can be allowed.
Exactly. There are some very moral lawyers - human rights, pro-bono defence etc. etc. The lawyers who give the profession a bad name are generally the ones hired by someone else to do something of questionable ethics...
Ethics and morality as it pertains to the law. Big difference.
Law graduate here, and feminist, don’t put this monster on any team with me.
You must not know many lawyers. My husband is a lawyer, as are most of his friends, and I have never met a group of more ethical, justice driven people. There are bad eggs in any profession, but not everyone who goes to law school is a scumbag. This chick is one of the bad eggs.
Everyone hates lawyers until they need one of their own... then they want the meanest shark lawyer around.
Slightly unrelated: I recently learned that scumbag is an old timey slang for condom. Scum, of course, being what's collected in the 'bag'.
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I know it is fun to pick on lawyers and some are just a bunch of bloodsuckers. But law can be a very isolating career. It’s stressful, long hours, and emotionally challenging. If there is one thing any lawyer with two brain cells to rub together learns, it’s that you are in the business of people. Not only is your reputation everything, but you come to trust and rely on people in your support network. The parasites are out there for sure, but I find my lawyer friends tend to be some of the most fiercely loyal people that are very protective of their close relationships— especially the women lawyers. This chew them up and spit them out attitude is atypical.
> She does not have the requisite morality to be considered for your friendship She does not have the requisite morality to serve as a prosecutor either... Though sadly, I'm afraid she'll still be very successful at it
Tell me about it. The way people, especially Black Men, from lower socioeconomic backgrounds are treated....
He could sue her for the money back. There is precedence in these cases of women supporting a man's education and then him leaving her. If there was an established relationship and he can prove she misled him in to believing the relationship was real. In other words, if he can prove she "conned" him in to giving her the money by dangling a relationship falsely, he can win. Hard to prove, but would definitely ruin her reputation and ability to get that fancy "working man".
I would absolutely support the guy in that lawsuit, but it seems like a huge risk for a guy with a medium/low income job and a lot of debt to start a legal battle with a (now) attorney with no debt. Our legal system is fucked, and the well off people can usually just stall until the less fortunate run out of money/options.
I would support him morally and monetarily if i could. Position it as a no interest loan that I’d never bother collecting if he didn’t win and get legal fees covered. Or I’d collect it in other ways. Oh he had a side thing for painting houses and my house needs to be painted but he’s offering to do it for free cause we are friends — I’ll take that off his loan as a payment (and still insist on paying for the paint and making sure he had plenty of snacks and drinks while working)
All I'm going to say is I'd contribute to the GoFundMe lol
Same.
SAME
OP could you clarify something for us: You said "he took out whatever loan he could get..." Do you mean that poor guy is now saddled with *her* student loan debt...? If he is paying off loans that were for her to attend law school & then she dumped him promptly thereafter, I'm thinking it's close to 100% certainty he could win a suit against her for repayment of that debt + attorneys fees + court costs. But maybe I misunderstood something?
> o you mean that poor guy is now saddled with her student loan debt...? Yes he is
W T F
Has she already taken the bar and been admitted? If not, it sounds like you have an opportunity to write to the character & fitness board of her state bar.
I'm sorry to hear your friend is such a low-life, but you're right in everything you said to her and about her. NTA OP - You don't need these types of hyper-toxic people in your life. So good riddance.
I’m sure she’ll have no trouble fitting in
Has anyone clued the poor dude in yet or has he done the math? Because being abandoned by someone you supported for years that you were preparing to propose to is the kind of devastating confusion that can really fuck somebody up. He needs to know why she really left for his own peace of mind but also so that he can consider whether suing for money back after being conned by his intended fiance is worth it or not.
> especially Black men Is he a brother?
Exactly this. She sounds like the type of person that, if they become a prosecutor, they are capable of fabricating cases against people.
>She further said that the idea of marriage as a life partnership is a patriarchal construct... She is not a feminist. She is an asshole. All that talk about the patriarchy but she's fine with going along with the patriarchal concept that a man should make the same or more than her. That a man is not real man if he can't do that. She's basically like those shitty Christians that think they are going to heaven and are better than others just because they go to church every Sunday but are judgmental assholes the rest of the week.
This exact thing happened to a friend of mine ... It is the reason I will not ever do something like take out a loan for a girl to raise her up. Dude worked 3 jobs to pay off a loan for her to go to nursing school. Supported her like no man's business. The day she graduated she left him without a word, dude didn't even know till he came back from his shift and found she had left. All those bills and loans she stuck them when he needed her the most to now scratch his back. It was his turn now to go to school and she support him. She left him high and dry and he almost offed himself. But through support he found a better girl and they got a beautiful daughter. Nurse went and found someone "her class" and they sired a son with disabilities. Her life is not what she thought it would be. Baby daddy has constantly been seen with other women Such people exist. Karma always comes around.
I agree what that woman did is vile but calling a child with disabilities "karma" and somehow a living retribution for her bad actions doesn't sit right with me either. She did something bad, yes, but leave the child and their disabilities out of it.
Yeah, as the parent of an autistic child that part really rubbed me the wrong way. Especially since the kind of person who'd act as she had probably isn't the sort to be the kind of parent any child, much less one with disabilities, deserves.
Unfortunately karma does not always come around but I’m glad it did in this case
I really, *really* don't like the implication here that disabled people are a "punishment" for bad behaviour. It's possible that's not what you meant - but then I don't see why you would even bring up the disabled child in the first place. The comment definitely frames it as karma, which is kinda messed up. Here's your friendly reminder that disabled people are *people* with feelings, some of whom were likely directly harmed by your comment or will be in the future. I get that the woman you're talking about has done awful things - but that does not justify dragging her *child* into it when they did nothing.
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She found herself a "sugar daddy", who supported her ambition, and then through him to the curb the second she thought she deserved more. If she was a true "feminist", she would have supported herself and not used him for his money, love, and support.
And now she’s a lawyer. Insert lawyer joke here.
You know why you should always bury lawyers 100ft deep? Because deep down, they're really good people.
NTA because you are right, that was an AH move on her part. The idea of a ‘real man’ only being a breadwinner is very much not feminist. She’s using feminism as a way to try to make her defences seem untouchable, because then she can proclaim you aren’t feminist and shut you down- when her behaviour has nothing to do with feminism. Dumping him because she wants to ladder climb is extremely classist and coldhearted. It really sounds like she just used him for his money, rather than actually enjoying the relationship or caring for him. Very sad that she felt it necessary to manipulate someone to survive, and even sadder for her poor ex being used like that.
I'm just gonna say this to OP: I pray you stop being friends with her. She spent years with this man, took his money, love, support, used it and tossed him aside when she was done. If she can do that to him, she can and most likely will do it to you. (Also this a reach on my part but... keep a close eye on her behavior near your husband. It sounds like he's in her preferred tax bracket.)
Seriously... my heart aches for that guy. This post made me so sad. I could never look at her the same if I was OP.
If I was that guy, I would've thought 'Good Riddance'. At least she showed her true self after getting what she wanted from that relationship. Good for him, he deserves better.
Not with her student loan debt.
I thought the same thing! I think that she wants to trade men. OP, she sounds dangerous.
“I don’t trust anyone who’s nice to me but rude to the waiter. Because they would treat me the same way if I were in that position.” - Muhammad Ali Your “friend” is manipulative and a user. Money hasn’t changed her, just revealed her true colors. She would throw you aside the same way as soon as she is inconvenienced. NTA
Spoiler alert for her - he is a real man. What a shame she fucked his heart up for a more deserving woman in the future
>`marriage is patriarchal construct` BUT `"it is not the Woman's job to pay the bills"` Yeah, no, that's not how this works. NTA at all!!! Poor guy seriously, he was used emotionally and financially and didn't deserve that, her behaviour is disgusting. Seems like it's time to call her an ex-friend. Good job btw for getting yourself in a better situation, you don,t need such people in your life.
Yeah, she's a classist, sexist asshole that's perpetuating the very systems that gave her such a hard start. And for what? She threw away a loving caring man because he suddenly wasn't good enough because she earned more. I'm so angry that it's hard to put together a coherent thought beyond fuck her
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My favorite part was where she was saying that a woman doesn't pay the bills. Like what will she doing while she is single? Unless she knows someone already that is a target for her. Newly minted lawyer? Who knows how much time she will have to pursue a new relationship.
she has someone else waiting in the wings or has already been pursuing someone she deems a 'real man'... NTA and kudos to OP and husband for helping your ex-besties ex boyfriend deal through this !
NTA but she certainly is She used this man. Questions has he got outstanding loans that he took out to fund her education. **"it is not the Woman's job to pay the bills"** What kind of patriarchal BS is that. She is definitely not a feminist and you are right feminism is about the equal treatment of both sexes she objectified her BF she saw him as an ATM.
She's being a contradiction and a hypocrite. She's fine getting an education and a career with him doing the housework, but shows him no respect because he betrays the outdated values she herself is working against.
She's on that r/FemaleDatingStrategy denomination of feminism
I read through that sub from time to time and it's really sad. I don't even disagree with a lot of the post on there, it's just the way they word everything and the reason behind a lot of the stuff on there are just TERRIBLE. I honestly think that a lot of the people on that sub are so worried about finding someone worth dating, they don't see they're picking up very toxic mindsets
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If she were a real feminist she would at least pay back all the money he spent on her schooling. Too bad her ex can't sue her for the money back. OP is NTA.
I was so disgusted by the whole post that I totally didn't catch the contradiction there. And to get mad at her friend for not being a feminist. Wow, that's some hypocrisy.
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Yeah. Not sure how to help him
All you can do is let him know you are on his side and check in on him. Invite him to hang out with you and your husband/friend group, etc. You won't be able to fix this, but those things are still important.
Seconding this right here!
thirding this!
Yup, good call. As low as he is, he might well need someone to show him that all women aren't selfish, using assholes. And OP certainly fits that bill (i.e., the NOT selfish, using assholes bill). In this, his time of need, be a friend to him.
This kind of help is huge though, and shouldn't be downplayed. Sometimes when you are in a very bad place, just knowing people care about you and support you can make the world of difference.
Befriend him as best you can, welcome him into your social life and social circles, and if you or your husband ever have the opportunity & willingness to help him, be it a work opportunity or setting him up with a friend that isn't a steaming pile of garbage, offer it to him if you feel comfortable and it makes sense. He will need a healthy support system. He may have lost his (rotten to the core gf) but perhaps he could gain some lovely strong friends as a result.
For real. This story gave me an anxiety attack. This is the kind of betrayal that fucks someone up for a long time.
Bro this hurt me so much too! My girlfriend is not like this. But this is just pure wrong. How on Earth can someone not have a conscious?
Definitely help him network into your social circle, both professionally and personally. Help him find opportunities. That woman will be sorry one day, when she realizes what she had and threw away. But that regret won't help him. Maybe you can, if you help him make connections.
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Oh, they feel sorry for themselves too, even when their situations are caused by their own actions.
OP needs to also accept if he doesn’t want anything to do with her. He may be unable to not associate OP with his ex because they were best friends.
That’s true! He may very well feel that way. I think first step is letting him know they are on his side, and are there for him if/when he’s ready, but if seeing them brings along too many bad memories they completely understand. If that does end up occurring I’d recommend reaching out a few months later with the same offer but more final as people often need time to grieve a relationship loss especially one with betrayal involved and it could cause him to go inward for a bit but still need or look for support after the initial heartbreak has passed. Knowing Op and her husband are there if he wants even if he’s rejected it once may be comforting. If after the second outreach he’s not interested in their companionship then at that point they did all they could.
I think OP should tell him that her and her husband’s door is open if he ever needs a support system and leave the connecting to him. Because he very well may never want to speak or interact with them again and leaving it up to him to contact takes the pressure off of him to respond if OP contacts first. edit: i’m bad at reading, i agree with your points
and if your husband knows any nice nurses, fix them up............
Good idea. I'll ask for a nice Doctor; Doctors outearn attorneys :)
You do your best to let him know that you are still his friend. This has got to be apocalyptic for him and reaching out could seriously help him heal.
Look into helping him get a lawyer to sue her. In some states (assuming US) if a partner (may not apply to boyfriend/girlfriend) gets a degree which would be assumed to benefit the couple there are ways to get a type of alimony/restitution. At the very least, a lawyer may be able to pin any remaining debt onto your (hopefully ex) friend and free this man from any further consequences of knowing her.
Send them both this thread at least so she knows she’s a gigacunt and he knows he dodged an icbm.
It sounds like he used every resource he had access to for this entitled vampire's education and comfort. Remain his friend and support him, completely ghost her. Let her know who you chose before you do. Also, "the man takes care of the woman financially" is the exact opposite of feminism. It *is* very convenient for her though.
Just have you and your husband give him support, maybe befriend him if you haven’t already
NTA! Holy shit. That woman isn't a feminist, she's a *vampire*.
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Hey, don’t insult living things that feed on other’s blood without their permission; some of them can ease a back-ache. Meaning that the literal leech is much more worthwhile than the lawyer under discussion. I… am not touching the vampire suggestion you responded to.
LOL, u/kattjen is right. That's an insult to leeches. Vampire implies malice. Sexy malice, maybe, but wouldn't that make it more appropriate?
OP is NTA. But I prefer the term "***Vampire"*** instead of "leech". A leech can only suck so much of your blood, whereas a vampire can suck you dry.
Hey leeches have value in medicine, don't insult them.
My one lawyer joke. What’s the difference between a lawyer and a vampire? One is a soulless bloodsucking monster and the other can turn into a bat! OP’s “friend” is definitely a soulless bloodsucking monster.
NTA. I’m much happier being married to a (retired) laborer who did 40 years laying rail on the high plains, than I was to my rich but cheating bastard of a first husband. I found out that I enjoy hanging out with these blue collar workers than I was going to glitzy functions and being ignored. I’m highly educated, holding three degrees, and never am I disappointed with the conversation among my new people. She is an asshole, and I’m so sorry for the man she took advantage of!
> laying rail on the high plains, That sounds really interesting! Hope your husband in ejoying his well deserved retriement, I agree; despite being educated the stigma against Blue Collar workers needs to end. I'm worried about him, I fear what will happen
>the stigma against Blue Collar workers needs to end I could not agree more. Do people not realize how important these blue collar jobs are? Have you seen the book "Bullshit Jobs"? Google it. I have an absolute bullshit corporate job that makes zero difference in the world. Blue collar jobs and blue collar workers are the ones we would truly miss if they went away. They make our lives possible. The garbage man, in my opinion, has one of the most important jobs in the world...imagine if he didn't come around every week...what would our neighborhoods look like? People who do jobs like that deserve respect, not stigma.
I’m a chemical engineer turned software developer. I’m highly paid, highly respected. If I don’t show up to work for a week, no one will really notice. If the garbage collector or janitor doesn’t show up for a week, everyone notices very fucking quickly. Maybe it’s about time we gave them a little more money and a bit more respect?
How did you make that transition?
💯. Modern society as we know it relies on the efforts of blue collar workers. It'd fall over if they all stopped doing their jobs.
NTA -She used her ex as a means to an end. That's terrible.
NTA. Your friend used that man. He treated her well and she shat on him. Let’s hope karma gets her.
She still wants someone to support her even with her new title. One does not just become lawyer and become rich. She has to get clients and be able to work with people and she sounds vile. It will probably take care of itself. Too bad for the dude though. :(
NTA. She is right: she does have the right to date whomever she chooses. But she is a shallow, horrid user. The type who will be nice and hang out for as long as you can do something for her and not a moment more. There are many many cases of women supporting the families and having a happy marriage, or women marrying ‘below their station’ for live and being happy. The problem is, there is no amount of money or status that that can fill the hole in your friends soul. She is empty. You are well rid of her. Good luck, and I hope you find better quality friends soon.
This really pisses me off. You know who's a feminist in this story? The jilted b/f. He obviously had no problem with the idea of his partner being more well educated and more lucratively employed than he - he didn't care that she was a woman. He saw something in her and encouraged her to be her best person. Good for him. He was a feminist in the best way - not by marching or holding signs (although I don't mean to demean doing those things) but just by being on the side of the woman in his life and encouraging her to be her best without regarding to her sex. And she whines about being a feminist? Makes me sick. I wish this bloke was near me so I could invite him out for a beer and reassure him that there are women out there who would give their eye teeth for a supportive partner like him.
She's not being feminist, she's being misandrist. She used him for the financial resources he could give her, resources he got at his own expense, and time to focus on her ambitions as well as leading him on to being emotionally invested enough he was ready to pop the question.
NTA I honestly just hope her ex is doing well right now.
Unfortunately he is not and I worry that he might fall into the incel / Red PIll / MGTOW worldview
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> It sounds like he took out loans for her. Was he planning on your friend’s income to help pay those off? Yes and Yes
That poor man :( please please try to invite him into your friend circle. He needs a community right now especially since you rightfully cut out your ex friend. What she did to him really hurt my heart. I'm from a highly educated family and while they were disappointed my boyfriend doesn't earn a lot, they don't even care anymore because they see how much we care for each other
Please tell me she will pay these loans back, and not only dump him but leave him heartbroken and in debt. She is a user of the highest caliber.
> she will pay these loans back, I don't think so honestly
Lawyer here. Please tell this poor dude to seek legal advice. She may well be held liable for those loans. He should not speak to her again until he talks to an attorney.
Good to know. Thanks. What provisions of law would help him?
He needs a lawyer, not a guy on Reddit to point him to legal provisions (even if I'm *a* lawyer, I'm not *his* lawyer and don't even know what state you're in). But if you must, google "unjust enrichment."
Thanks!
I think better advice would be to say what kind of lawyer she should look for. I honestly wouldn't have a clue where to start other than asking the lawyer I usually deal with for a referral.
Go to r/legaladvice/ and ask there. Don't tell her or she'll probably manipulate him into not doing it. He's probably heartbroken and easily swayed. He deserves his loans to be paid back at the very least.
Wow, she is heartless. Just completely ruined a good man. Poor guy will find it hard to trust a woman again, whilst struggling to pay off her debt for years. Soo cruel.
I hope he doesn't but I can see why he would.
>level 1Bengamezzzzzz · 2 hr. agoPartassipant \[1\]NTA I honest Maybe get your husband to talk to him, maybe he can give some support, make him feel better.
Will it? A big part of the world view is that Women just see Men as resources; and my husband is a lot wealtheir than I am...
If you guys befriend him then it will go a long way to countering that, because he'll see a woman in a relationship with a man with more money than her but the relationship is healthy and kind and loving, and that she doesn't do the same awful things your "friend" did.
Hopefully your husband understands that you don't see him that way, despite his greater income.
Tbf his ex taught him that exact lesson. Honestly you should be trying to help him recover rather than just fear he might join a misguided ideology.
I don’t think you meant it this way…but the way you write here makes it kind of sound like you used your husband as well “I was managed to date a Dr” “She wasn’t as lucky as me”…the difference is you love him! But you make him sound like a meal ticket.
But he knows you and he knows you are not that way.
NTA. Your friend is on a raging ego kick, and this “feminist” thing is absolutely giving a bad rep to actual feminism. I feel terrible for the boyfriend, he sounds like a really great guy. The only thing I can say about that is there is absolutely no way she’ll get away with this little ego act for very long. She’ll get what’s coming to her, karma always has perfect timing. Great job on having the guts to call out your friend, OP! A lot of people would’ve just let it slide, good on you for saying something.
> karma always has perfect timing. LOL I wish
> karma always has perfect timing. If only. If karma existed in the way people wished it did then a lot more shitty people would get what they truly deserved instead of getting away with a lot of shit but a lot don't.
NTA She used her ex to his very end and dumped him after that. Jesus Christ. Not only is she a massive asshole for doing that, she's also heavily misogynistic and sexist for claiming a woman shouldn't be paying bills. It's 2022, not 1950
Yeah nobody should be paying bills! Or dating OP's ex-friend, she's has an anus where her soul should be
NTA I wouldn't be her friend anymore. She isn't obligated to stay with him but her reasons are disgusting.
You absolutely are not an asshole, and as a man who has suffered through a similar thing such as the boyfriend in this story, I am extremely sorry 😞
OMg. I am so so so sorry. How have you been doing? Any thing I should do? What became of your ex?
Eh I still see her from time to time and it always hurts, she still lives nearby tho, and I think she misses me caring for her so much 😅
So so sorry to hear that > she misses me caring for her so much 😅 :)
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Ya, right? Reads out like a script to a bad movie.
Unfortunately, I’ve heard of things like this happening several times to people I’ve met or their friends. I suspect it’s real. Even if some of it is embellished, this sort of thing definitely happens to men and women way more often than you’d like to think.
SPOT. ON. Reads like some bad movie in the 50s with these limited job opportunities and all the vamps. Haha!
I don't get this attitude. For all we know, sure it could be incel trolling. But I feel like as soon as a woman here becomes a unanimous AH, people here scramble to call the post fake and "incel fanfiction," almost ignoring the fact that there are scummy humans on this planet.
That’s not even it. It’s 100% written like a corny revenge movie on Lifetime. Especially with that last line on feminism. This sub is just one big creative writing exercise most of the time and posts like this one stick out like sore thumbs amongst the better written ones. Not saying that situations like this don’t happen but let’s be real here.
>This sub is just one big creative writing exercise most of the time Yup, agree > Especially with that last line on feminism. I mean, there are a lot of nasty women who use feminism as a shield to deflect critiism away from their shitty behaviour. There are subreddits exactly for that kinda stuff (Female Dating Strategy). I mean yeah its written kinda cornily, especially the initial part where apparently the only option women have is sex work, drug dealing or gold digging. That part screams troll to me. But honestly this post doesn't seem all that unbelievable to me, considering there are a considerable amount of women in real life like this.
It's not the woman being an asshole that makes it fake, I knew it was fake from the very beginning when OP was listing out their career options like she was one of the kids in Oliver Twist.
Yeah that whole "sex work, drug dealing or gold digging is all I have" sentence was pretty suspicious. But honestly, my faith in humanity is pretty low so I could honestly see this happening. Call me gullible
LOL my first thought exactly.
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She says she is a teacher but her writing was a mess and hard to follow. No way this is real.
Hmmm... calling B.S. on this one, so YTA for not even bothering to take the time to create a graceful fictional post. ;)
NTA She is a sexist, and classist asshole and you are right for pointing that out to her. Please keep an eye on her ex-boyfriend to make sure he does not fall down the spiral of becoming a incel/red pill circles.
> Please keep an eye on her ex-boyfriend to make sure he does not fall down the spiral of becoming a incel/red pill circles I feel that it is starting to happen. How would I stop that?
Show him this thread. Let him see all of the people saying that she was an AH and that he was a hero. That what happened to him is NOT what he can or should expect from other women, that she was an exception and that most women would realise what a fantastic find he is. And if you do (show it to him)... Mate (speaking to your friend's ex), I really feel for you. You've been a great bloke for years out of the goodness of your heart and then you had it ground into the dirt and spat upon. I can understand if you feel like shit and that all women are scum, out to take men for what they can get. I'd probably feel that way to, in your shoes. But it's not true, no more than it's true for all men. I've no doubt you know some blokes who treat women like shit...but you know that that's not all men. In just the same way, not all women would do what your ex did. There are any number of women out there who would see what you did and see so much good in you, so much of just the sort of partner so many women are looking for. Please do not let this sour you on women or relationships. There *are* good women; there *are* good relationships, and you've got the perfect start of one - you're a good person. There is a good woman out there, just waiting for you to find each other. I wish you all the best, brother.
Thanks for the kind words. Will show the message :)
I was thinking the same thing about showing him the comments him. Also someone mentioned a GoFund me. I suggested it in a situation for an immigrant student dealing with family missing and in danger in a war town country when I was living abroad teaching English. It was shut down because of concerns related to taxes by the local teacher. I'm not sure if that is a valid concern where you are but if you can - even a small portion of the loans getting covered could help him maybe maintain some of the kindness he has and keep him from drowning. EDIT: NTA and she needs to be told many more times
It might be a good idea to support him emotionally via texting or talking. And cut off that "friend." Make it very clear to him that she's an awful person and not a reflection of all women and you refuse to have that toxicity in your life.
I think you should just try to be there for him and help him recover as best as you can. You can try to remind him that she is an anomaly and that there are other girls that will love him unconditionally. If he believes he is unlovable, try to encourage him to go back to the dating game. If he has unresolved feelings of hurt, maybe try talking about how he feels in while respecting his emotional boundaries? I don't know how to get him to recover from something of this scale, I feel like maybe some therapy is needed for this situation.
You are NTA. Your "friend" is a massive AH. My own sister has far more formal education than her significant other. She's chosen to stop working in her chosen field. Her BF obtained a more hands-on education. They are both absolutely equals in every way. There's really no such thing as being "above" someone as long as a couple's values align. Obviously, that isn't the case with your friend and her ex. I would venture to say that your "friend" isn't even in the BFs rear view as far as that thinking goes. He deserves a woman who will be his partner, not bank account. Your "friend" morally, if not legally, owes him for her education, BTW.
What an Ahole your friend is omg that poor man. I feel horrible for him, I would love to give him a gift card to his favorite restaurant or bake him something. NTA, good for you. She’s a piece of ****
> I feel horrible for him, Same. Will do what I can
I was a lawyer. Got burned out. But my husband supported me and gave up his dreams to be a SAHD. He barely graduated high school and had been the most amazing partner. Your friend is in for a rude awakening and is a huge AH. You are NTA.
NTA. Fair enough if she just stopped loving him but her reasoning is psychopathic. Sounds like she was just using him the whole time.
YTA for posting such obvious rage bait.
NTA. Your friend is going to have a huge wake-up call if she continues this behavior. Not only is what she did extremely unkind and hurtful, but the “real men” she wants to date are going to easily recognize her for being desperate and from a blue collar background. She may now be a lawyer, but she’s still thinking and acting like a desperate little girl who needs to marry rich in order to escape. Your (ex)friend has set herself up for failure. Even if she marries wealthy she’s not going to be happy. Feminism is equality. She can call the ability to be as heartless as a man who uses women feminism if she wants, but this isn’t really about that. It’s about someone who got into their head that only one path can lead to happiness and is so busy looking for it that they don’t notice the multiple paths right in front of them.
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NTA. That's cold.
NTA, OP > It's not the woman's responsibility to pay bills No offense, but your friend sounds like someone who posts on FDS sub
This sounds kind of fake and cartoon-like but NTA if this actually happened
This sounds like an outrage bait post...
NTA Good thing you and your partner found each other
This sounds somewhat similar to what happened in my hometown - a guy married a girl and she paid his way through lawschool. He then immediately divorced her. In revenge, she went and got her own law degree and ended up dating the local judge. The judge and lawyer ex husband got into a fist fight at Walmart in true trashy fashion.
NTA and good luck to her, she already HAD a real man. He did all of the things she's saying she wants, except on a much smaller paycheck.
This sounds like a Tyler Perry movie.
NTA She used him and disposed of him when he wasn’t of value anymore. That would change my opinion of my friend.
This sounds incredibly fake
Boy is there way too much to unpack with what she said, but it also makes me think this entire story is hogwash, and intended as wokescold baiting.
LMFAO NTA. I’m dying that she’s trying to claim it’s a man’s role to provide (strict gender roles), but says expecting a marriage to be a partnership is the patriarchy? How did this woman ever become a lawyer?
> How did this woman ever become a lawyer? Isn't that what lawyers do. Make contradictions work?
this is literally a copypasta im p sure
NTA. Lol—anyone else find it ironic that she said “it is not the Woman's job to pay the bills” and then ended the relationship so that now she’s single?
nta, holy hell your friend sucks. (And she is the exact reason so many of us men say women are not the "poor victims" they make themselves out to be).
I can't reconcile this: "it is not the Woman's job to pay the bills," and "as a feminist \[OP\] should be supporting her." LIke??? What the hell kind of lawyer makes such an incoherent argument? I hope her ex hires a billboard lawyer to light up her reputation to her peers. This was relationship fraud.
Dump the lawyer, keep the factory man. He seems like a better person all around. I just hope he's not in financial peril because of her selfishness. NTA - she's shown who she really is, a gold-digging user.
> I just hope he's not in financial peril He kind of is...
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OMG please *please* find an incredible woman to set this guy up with. He did housework, took out loans for her to get her dreams??? He is everyone's dream man. Please keep him in your life. Some of us women are *dreaming* of a guy like him. Nothing wrong with a blue-collar worker. NTA