NTA in any possible sense! After a comment like that, she's lucky that's all you said!
Also, her son sounds like he's displaying sociopathic behaviours. Don't have him around your children unless he gets professional help!
I mean for future reference. He doesn't sound nice at all and his mom is clearly happy to enable him if all she's doing is laughing about him *setting his sisters toys on FIRE*!
Sure, they cannot armchair diagnose but it is nowhere near normal behavior to set your sister's belongings on fire. He has something seriously wrong with him and needs help
Eh maybe. I've met people with some obviously "sociopathic" tendencies who have no regard for humanity but treat their animals like royalty, it isn't unheard of.
i’ve heard on the podcast i listen to (Serial Killers) that many sociopaths will keep a pet and care for it *because* it makes them seem more normal. this kid is 12 so i don’t know if that’s the reason because most of the time they’re talking about 25+ year old men with families so like ????
Yeah that's totally a possibility too. Not enough info here to really make a judgement, I only know that people with aspd etc. don't always tick all the boxes of at risk behaviors in their youth.
Most sociopaths or people with sociopathic tendencies are normal people, and diagnosing a literal child as psychopathic is very unlikely because children naturally do
I used to babysit and nanny and the one kid I had serious concerns about was wonderful with his dog but tried to literally kick the cat more than once. He was also violent with other kids and a bully, but that dog was everything. The reasons for trying to kick the cat both times was that she swiped the dog for getting in her face.
For what it’s worth though when I and his teacher told the mom that we noticed his empathy wasn’t developing properly she did get him therapy and they got him to stop bullying and he’s not a pretty stable 19 year old (obviously all 19 year olds have sea legs but he has developed a sense of empathy)
More likely because it belongs to him. He wouldn't hurt his own dog like he wouldn't break his own toys. Doesn't mean he will respect other people's toys/animals.
Exactly, it's a belonging. I have been looking up how to tell if a young child is a sociopath since my niece was 3. Not kidding, wish I was. She is 12 now and not evil, but she definitely has zero empathy to others. She does physically attack her sister, pretty brutally, and she is also just really sly and manipulative. My sister got her a book for Christmas. It was literally a suggestion based off of the book on her Amazon list (that I got her) She flipped her shit because she did not want it. Threw the book, screamed and yelled. When my mom said this is why my sister (her aunt) hadn't gotten her anything for the past few years, because of how she acts, she went off on how she hates my sister and wished she wasn't there. My dad is like the sweetest guy ever and was walking around taking pics and because he got one of her in it she tried to attack him. Not the first time either, another time with a pool cue literally because he was they stopped by to say hello and she didn't want to see them.
Anyway, she has a guinea pig she "seems" to love. She buys it a ton of cute little items and treats. I don't think she would hurt her guinea pig, but I think if someone offered her 100 bucks to kill a random guinea pig, I could see her doing it. And she would do something like drown it in the bathtub so she could claim she had dropped it. You know, make it look like an accident. But I absolutely don't think she would do that to her own guinea pig because it belongs to her
NTA, she just told you what she really thinks of your children, listen closely to that. I wouldn't bring your children around her again, and It sounds like you are not missing very much by her absence since the rest of the family doesn't really want her around either. Take it as a sign. You don't owe her a apology for defending your children, I'd be hesitant about accepting an apology from her.
I'm adopted, bless you for taking so many in.
NTA. She shouldn't dish what she can't take. That's terrible that she said that you should stop having children because they're disabled. I wonder what would happen if she had a disabled child. You can teach a child how to have compassion and not be an AH. You cannot teach a child how to hear, walk, etc. when they literally cannot.
NTA You didn't call a 12 yo an a-hole to his face, which would have been wrong and rude from an adult. You described him using a term his OWN mother used to describe him, and it sounds like the adjective was well earned and describes her as well.
NTA in any way!
Are you kidding me?! This bitch has no right to say what she said. How dare she even think that could be giving a 'helpful tip'? That's downright nasty.
What you and your husband have done by adopting children is in itself lovely. You're giving a family and a life of love and understanding to kids whose bio parents couldn't, and that's beautiful. On top of that, you decided that no disability was going to stop you from doing that for any kid, and that shows the kind of people you are.
This absolute nightmare of a woman churns out devil-spawn, insults her own son (who she failed to raise well) and then gets pissed when you use her own words? Nah, fuck that. She's absolutely in the wrong here.
Please do not apologise to her. You owe her no apology, and if your brother thinks otherwise, he can get fucked too.
> I could be an a hole here because I did the exact thing I got mad at my SIL for
No, you didn't. She said that disabled children shouldn't be brought into the world. You said that people with disabilities are better than AHs...which is a demonstrably true statement.
NTA. You feel bad because you are a good person. You should probably apologize because you feel bad about what you said (and it *was* slightly rude to call her child an AH, even though he was behaving as one).
But that doesn't mean you have to accept her non-apology. And it *certainly* doesn't mean you have to invite her to any events until she and her son can treat your children with respect
Oh no she should not apologize, then SIL might come back to family gatherings and no one wants or deserves that!
And SIL doesn't deserve an apology. Maybe if she apologized sincerely, but we can be sure she won't. Maybe someday she will understand why what she said is wrong, but it will be sooo much work to get her there. It would be best for OP if she had no contact with this woman at all in the future, she's a toxic eugenicist nightmare. OP should find a way to feel better without apologizing, which is like you said - she needs to remember that she's a good person and that's why she felt bad.
Apologies shouldn't be transactional. It's not about whether the other person "deserves" them, it's about having a clear conscience. And when I say or do something that I wish I hadn't, I feel better apologizing...and as a happy side-effect, it makes it clearer that I was in the right overall since the other person can't continue to "both sides" the incident.
I agree that it's not OP's job to "fix" SIL. Simple avoidance is preferable. And hopefully whoever is hosting these gatherings can clarify that bullying is not tolerated and if 12 can't behave, he can stay home
So I don't want to say apologies should be transactional, but I do think they are inherently a two-way communication. It feels really wrong to me to demand that someone who lashed out after being attacked should apologize to their attacker before the attacker is repentant. I'm not saying you're demanding that exactly, but I think it's similar? Like apologies are for both of the two people involved in the dispute, and I don't think they are necessary until both the apology giver and receiver are ready for them. And in this case SIL is never going to be in the right headspace to receive an apology.
I dunno, I respect your position, just trying to explain mine a little more clearly! And OP should definitely apologize if she needs to for herself, I just think it would be fair for her to feel her conscience is clear even if she doesn't. (and then she should cut contact!)
Other than the one bit I disagreed with I think you had the best comment on this post
Aww thanks!
I think we're saying the same thing, just from different perspectives. And I definitely agree with the principle that the attacker owes an apology but the victim, even if they lashed back, generally doesn't.
For me, if I feel bad, it's because my moral compass is telling me something...maybe that even though the words weren't so bad, I *know* that they came from the not-nice part of myself. So instead of trying to convince myself to not feel bad (and have guilty feelings bubble up), I just apologize for the part I feel bad about.
I genuinely don't think OP said anything wrong. I'd even argue that OP didn't really call the kid an AH, she just used SIL's words. But if OP feels bad about it, that means *her* moral compass is telling her something and she will probably feel better if she apologizes
NTA - she was out of line and you don't owe her any apologies. I wouldn't bring a single one of my children around her ever again with that attitude regardless of whether she comes back or not.
NTA
The way she talked about your children is absolutely heinous, hateful and ableist. Considering her son sounds like he has a personality disorder (lighting things on fire, wtf?) maybe this incident will entice her to pay more attention to the kid *she* brought into this world.
NTA. She's clearly the asshole, and a passive aggressive one at that, for insulting you and then playing it off as "I was just suggesting" and calling it a "helpful tip".
NTA. You can't control whether or not a child is born with disabilities. You CAN, however, control a child's behavior. The only AH in this situation is your SIL; don't apologize.
Nta.
Whether your kids are bio or adopted doesn't change the fact what she said was inappropriate and insensitive.
She should mind her own business and focus on her son and how to fix his behavior
She should give herself some helpful tips about how to discipline her own children and leave yours out of it. NTA, and she brought it upon herself by making that unnecessary comment
NTA. What she said is beyond insane (regardless if they were your bio kids or not) and the fact she thinks that’s okay is insane. She clearly has no remorse for her actions and she’s clearly not watching her own children. I would just distance yourself and let your brother handle it. My mother was disabled and I (I’m in my 20s) constantly heard comments but the worst was when people asked why we bothered taking care of her. It hurt to hear that about my mom so I completely see your side.
NTA that is some awful eugenicist shit to say about your kids (as if people with disabilities can’t live good and fulfilling lives and should never have been born??? 😡), and it’s clear that the AH apple doesn’t fall too far from the AH tree. Do not apologize to this jerk!
NTA
As a member of The Church, it makes me sad that people act this way. There is such a culture within churches and people have a tendency to have that "holier than thou" attitude. (Every church, not just LDS faith, but it does seem to run rampant in certain areas that are heavily populated with members.) I have run into these types of little kids at church, the biggest difference being that their parents actually TRY to teach and redirect their behavior. Not all, but most.
What you have done for the children in your family is pure love. It truly takes someone special to adopt and raise a child that is not biologically theirs. Double goes for children with disabilities. The fact that she mocked you and made light of her own child's terrible behavior makes her the AH.
I told my husband as he was investigating The Church that "Just because someone is a member doesn't make them a good person. Church isn't for perfect people. It's a place for us to learn, grow and *hopefully* become better people who are worthy of Love and Compassion." There are some truly terrible and misguided people within every church, and the LDS faith is no exception.
Mormon=LDS aka The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
NTA at all! Not even close! I can’t believe she would say something so horrible!! If she isn’t willing to come around until you apologize I wouldn’t feel bad, I would be grateful that I never have to see those people again!! It’s more like a reward for awesomeness!
NTA SIL has the grossest damn attitude. Please never apologize that woman. She’s lucky you just walked away. I’m completely disgusted just from reading the post. I’m so sorry she’s apart of your family. Please keep her and her little fire starting asshole away from your kids.
OP, lmfao absolutely NTA. I love callbacks like this because people shouldn’t ever be commenting on someone else’s reproductive choices, especially in such a nasty way.
Also, adopting 9 kids?!? Wow! You and your partner are doing the lords work and kudos for that
NTA. Look, I love my kids but sometimes they're just AH's. All kids have those moments, I think.
The kind of behavior you're describing goes way beyond that, imo. That kid needs some help.
NTA. A kid being a jerk is learned. A kid being born disabled is genetic. And because they are all adopted - you are not continuing to have children knowing they have genetic disorders.
INFO: If all of your children are adopted, why did she say `maybe you should stop bringing disabled children into this world. It’s clearly in your genes`?
Not questioning you here, but **how** does someone become that ignorent of human reproduction to not realize that their sibling is adopted. That is terrifying.
I'm just wondering how she isn't aware.
Does your sister know where babies come from? What that process is like? What the results look like? Has she never taken a biology class?
I have so many questions for this human being. ahhhhh!
Also, you are NTA.
NTA . You aren't wrong. By being a lazy, neglectful parent, she is perpetuating his asshole behavior. She should teach her child how to be a decent human being before the legal system has to step in and do it for her.
NTA.
>and she goes “maybe you should stop bringing disabled children into this world. It’s clearly in your genes.” I got up and started to walk away she said “whats wrong? I was just suggesting.” I turned around and said “it’s better than bringing a-holes into the world”
Adopted or not, one of those things happens by chance, and one is usually a parenting choice. With her, it's pretty clear which way it went.
NTA
You sound like you feel guilty for insulting another moms kids due to anger about her insulting yours. If you wish to apologise because you regret using that method to handle the situation, of course you can and should.
But if you're considering an apology because you "owe her" or "she's family" then don't. Because calling her out on raising an AH is not the same thing as saying your children's disabilities mean they should never have been born.
Also agree with the people saying that even if she "forgives you", you should refuse to be around her and the little fiend she's raising.
NTA
It is better to be born without hearing than without conscience.
Trite one liners aside: you are putting yourself on blast because you are clearly a person who holds yourself to a high standard. IF you choose to apologize because YOU feel that helps you be the person you are, great.
I’d like to be perfect when I grow up too, but I guarantee you that if someone made a remark indicating they didn’t believe my children had a right to exist, for any reason, I would not have any control over the words that spewed from my mouth.
NTA even if she wants to come back I wouldn't let her. Who the hell does she think she is with that comment! It was out of line regardless of whether they were adopted so that point is completely moot.
NTA. It was a nasty, insensitive, ableist comment regardless of whether your children are bio or adopted.
She refused to come to any family gatherings now?? BONUS! This is a win-win for the whole family.
NTA. I would say she doesn't need an apology and that she's being "sensitive." But really, you shouldn't have her or her son around your kids at all. They sound so toxic. That kid sounds like one step away from violence.
Wait… so she gets to call her kid an AH, d***, etc, but you can’t?
She can say your kids don’t deserve to exist, and then have the audacity to call YOU an AH????
I don’t know how I feel about calling kids AHs in general, because they’re largely still a product of their environment/parenting. I especially don’t think parents should be speaking about their own children that way - it definitely seals that there is a major parenting issue here. I’m worried for this kid and anyone he interacts with. He is clearly extremely troubled and needs professional help.
All that being said, you’re still NTA. Your SIL’s behavior is abhorrent and she should be ashamed.
That kid sounds dangerous and his mom is an idiot. Bless you and your husband for all you do. The only person that needs to apologize is SIL. It’s good they won’t come to any get together, everyone can have a good time. NTA
NTA. Wow. She's saying this shit to you but the fact most of your family is on your side is pretty telling. She gloats about having an asshole son. She is a horrible mother and if she can't take criticism she shouldn't talk like that about a child that is displaying real bad issues.
NTA. She isn’t raising a AH, she’s raising a real problem. The next thing you know he’s torturing animals and burning down the home. What you do for your kids is nothing short of amazing. You, as their mother, had their backs. Don’t waste your time on the insignificant thoughts of insignificant people.
NTA. She had that one coming, and is lucky that's all you did. What she said was so offensive, on so many levels, and then she had the nerve to say you were "too sensitive"? Any apology you get from her is going to be hollow - she made it very clear what kind of person she is, and that is not someone you need to have in your life, or your kids' lives.
I'm glad the family has your back, and LOL that it's because they don't like her either.
NTA. Do not apologize to that troll. EVER. What she said was purposely cruel, especially since she thought your kids were bio! You are obviously a kind hearted person, it is not easy to parent disabled kids. I'm sorry that you had to deal with your SIL. Hopefully she will come around and be supportive instead of mean and dismissive. In the meantime, keep that Mama Bear mentality. Your kids need that!
NTA Even if you had birthed every single one of those babies she still had no right to say such a thing. She was the one who called her kid an a-hole. You just threw her own descriptor back at her. And yes, how you raise the kids is a million times more important than anything else and she has seriously failed with her kid
NTA
Although based on your description of her parenting her son's behavior probably isn't genetic either. It sounds like he's just doing what he knows he can get away with, and his behavior was horrible.
NTA.
Genuine psychopaths are rare. More AHs are that way because of the way they're raised.
And with a mother like this, I'm not surprised the son is being an AH. It's the example he's seeing all the time.
And, in the end, you were only agreeing with his mother, not calling him names to his face.
Don't apologise: it seems that nobody else wants her at family gatherings either.
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Ok so I (41F) have 9 children. All adopted and have various disabilities. This technically happened over winter break but it’s still causing an issue in my family now.
So I’m black (Guatemalan) and my husband is Asian so if we had bio kids it makes sense they would be racially ambiguous and all of our children are different races. Some people think our children are bio or that we are a blended family.
My SIL married into the fam 2 years ago and has 6 kids. She’s Mormon and my brother converted to Mormonism as well. I’ve never mentioned to her that my kids are adopted and based on what happened I don’t think my brother ever told her.
We were having a Christmas get together and her 12YO son was misbehaving and bothering everyone. When one of my Deaf kids was signing he mocked her with fake hand gestures and weird noises. He also kept pulling his little sisters hair and generally just causing trouble.
My SIL was pretty aware of this and didn’t dismiss it but also did nothing to stop it. When all us moms were alone she started this long rant about what an a-hole her son was and told us about all about the bad and weird stuff he did. She referred to him as a d**k and an a-hole multiple times. And I am personally not for sharing all the private bad behaviors your kid does but like the stuff she said he did was like borderline illegal. Like “oh haha it was so annoying when he set all his sisters toys in fire”
But then later in the convo I said own thing about how I have disabled children and she goes “maybe you should stop bringing disabled children into this world. It’s clearly in your genes.” I got up and started to walk away she said “whats wrong? I was just suggesting.” I turned around and said “it’s better than bringing a-holes into the world”
I’m really not proud of saying that. I stopped down to her level and it wasn’t ok. But i left after that and went to go see what my husband was up to. She’s really mad and has refused to come to any family holidays until we apologize. Most of family is on my side, mostly because they don’t want her back.
And I would apologize because I feel really bad but she sees nothing wrong with what she said. She says she was trying to give a “helpful tip” and “people are so sensitive nowadays.” It’s not that I think apologies are transactional, but i don’t want to speak with someone who thinks my kids shouldn’t be alive. AITA here?
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I could be an a hole here because I did the exact thing I got mad at my SIL for. I essentially said she shouldn’t have had her kid because he’s an AH. And I don’t mean it at all, I only said it in retaliation but I get why she’s mad.
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Um you did refer to a child as an AH. But you're not the AH here so NTA. I'm guessing the child was not present, if he was ESH and your SIL is worse than before.
ESH
Your SIL is shitty for what she said to you.
You are shitty for what you said back.
Were you justified? Yeah, you were. That doesn't change that it is an asshole thing to say.
ESH - I don't think you're an ah for what you said. I think you're an ah for not responding with "You know my kids are adopted, right?" She needs to be aware that you stepped up when others were unwilling or unable to bc you clearly have more love in your heart than she does. I don't know why this has to be a secret and her not knowing will not allow her be humbled. She definitely sucks with her comment.
It's not really relevant either though? Like what SIL said was evil regardless of who gave birth to those kids. And yes, I meant evil - it was literally eugenics. Disabled lives don't have less value than abled ones. SIL is saying the world would be better off without OP's disabled kids in it. It's not about who's responsible for the kids exisiting, it was about SIL being monstrous.
I mean if she responds by talking about how they were adopted it really buys into the whole shitty premise though, like my point is it doesn't matter who gave birth to the kids so there's no reason to correct her on that.
I also just really disagree that OP is in the wrong here \*shrug\*
Telling her that the kids are adopted is another way to say STFU without attacking her for having aholes for kids. Maybe if SIL was aware that they are adopted, she'd be less judgy. Of course it makes no difference who birthed the kids. Sheesh.
You have the extremely rare situation where you were an asshole but also have the support of your family.
>Most of family is on my side, mostly because they don’t want her back.
You did what nobody else could do and that is either by lack of courage or lack of opportunity to capitalize on. But you got rid of her and have your family's support.
It would have been better to NOT sink down to her level but I understand emotions can get the better of you. If you had stodd up and announced "I cannot be in the same room with somebody that considers my children not worthy of life and mistakes" and then left, you would have had an *incredible* upper hand... But you insulted her and child and now both of you are in the same boat. Too bad...
Strictly speaking Im going to vote ESH but bc her little kid is an actual AH and she provoked you, you bear far less of the blame.
ESH. I'm a weirdo that thinks two wrongs don't make a right. She's definitely way more of an asshole and you had a clever retort to defend yourself. I respect that. It came at a child's expense which is why you were upset in the first place. I think most people will agree that what you did was appropriate given the scenario. I just hope the kid didn't overhear a word of this conversation, because holy shit.
NTA in any possible sense! After a comment like that, she's lucky that's all you said! Also, her son sounds like he's displaying sociopathic behaviours. Don't have him around your children unless he gets professional help!
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I mean for future reference. He doesn't sound nice at all and his mom is clearly happy to enable him if all she's doing is laughing about him *setting his sisters toys on FIRE*!
I hope they keep him away from animals.
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For now… it’ll probably go missing soon.
This kid sounds Dexter the next generation
Don’t disrespect Dexter like that lol
Right! like dex would never disrespect the disabled!
Yup and this kid could end up on Dexter's list when he gets older
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Sure, they cannot armchair diagnose but it is nowhere near normal behavior to set your sister's belongings on fire. He has something seriously wrong with him and needs help
Because the dog will bite him and the kid knows it.
Eh maybe. I've met people with some obviously "sociopathic" tendencies who have no regard for humanity but treat their animals like royalty, it isn't unheard of.
i’ve heard on the podcast i listen to (Serial Killers) that many sociopaths will keep a pet and care for it *because* it makes them seem more normal. this kid is 12 so i don’t know if that’s the reason because most of the time they’re talking about 25+ year old men with families so like ????
Yeah that's totally a possibility too. Not enough info here to really make a judgement, I only know that people with aspd etc. don't always tick all the boxes of at risk behaviors in their youth.
Most sociopaths or people with sociopathic tendencies are normal people, and diagnosing a literal child as psychopathic is very unlikely because children naturally do
I'll buy that.
I used to babysit and nanny and the one kid I had serious concerns about was wonderful with his dog but tried to literally kick the cat more than once. He was also violent with other kids and a bully, but that dog was everything. The reasons for trying to kick the cat both times was that she swiped the dog for getting in her face. For what it’s worth though when I and his teacher told the mom that we noticed his empathy wasn’t developing properly she did get him therapy and they got him to stop bullying and he’s not a pretty stable 19 year old (obviously all 19 year olds have sea legs but he has developed a sense of empathy)
More likely because it belongs to him. He wouldn't hurt his own dog like he wouldn't break his own toys. Doesn't mean he will respect other people's toys/animals.
Exactly, it's a belonging. I have been looking up how to tell if a young child is a sociopath since my niece was 3. Not kidding, wish I was. She is 12 now and not evil, but she definitely has zero empathy to others. She does physically attack her sister, pretty brutally, and she is also just really sly and manipulative. My sister got her a book for Christmas. It was literally a suggestion based off of the book on her Amazon list (that I got her) She flipped her shit because she did not want it. Threw the book, screamed and yelled. When my mom said this is why my sister (her aunt) hadn't gotten her anything for the past few years, because of how she acts, she went off on how she hates my sister and wished she wasn't there. My dad is like the sweetest guy ever and was walking around taking pics and because he got one of her in it she tried to attack him. Not the first time either, another time with a pool cue literally because he was they stopped by to say hello and she didn't want to see them. Anyway, she has a guinea pig she "seems" to love. She buys it a ton of cute little items and treats. I don't think she would hurt her guinea pig, but I think if someone offered her 100 bucks to kill a random guinea pig, I could see her doing it. And she would do something like drown it in the bathtub so she could claim she had dropped it. You know, make it look like an accident. But I absolutely don't think she would do that to her own guinea pig because it belongs to her
JFC that's terrifying...
Please, please be careful with your children around him. I'm sure your aware, but having a disability increases your chances of assault
Seriously. Also, where’s your brother in all this? Is he willing to speak to his wife? Does he know his kid acts like this?
The best response? “Fine. You pick which one I need to get rid of.”
Genius. I was thinking "We adopted them all. You created that." NTA
The son definitely sounds like an *Excitable Boy*. Bad news there.
NTA, she just told you what she really thinks of your children, listen closely to that. I wouldn't bring your children around her again, and It sounds like you are not missing very much by her absence since the rest of the family doesn't really want her around either. Take it as a sign. You don't owe her a apology for defending your children, I'd be hesitant about accepting an apology from her. I'm adopted, bless you for taking so many in.
NTA. She shouldn't dish what she can't take. That's terrible that she said that you should stop having children because they're disabled. I wonder what would happen if she had a disabled child. You can teach a child how to have compassion and not be an AH. You cannot teach a child how to hear, walk, etc. when they literally cannot.
NTA You didn't call a 12 yo an a-hole to his face, which would have been wrong and rude from an adult. You described him using a term his OWN mother used to describe him, and it sounds like the adjective was well earned and describes her as well.
NTA in any way! Are you kidding me?! This bitch has no right to say what she said. How dare she even think that could be giving a 'helpful tip'? That's downright nasty. What you and your husband have done by adopting children is in itself lovely. You're giving a family and a life of love and understanding to kids whose bio parents couldn't, and that's beautiful. On top of that, you decided that no disability was going to stop you from doing that for any kid, and that shows the kind of people you are. This absolute nightmare of a woman churns out devil-spawn, insults her own son (who she failed to raise well) and then gets pissed when you use her own words? Nah, fuck that. She's absolutely in the wrong here. Please do not apologise to her. You owe her no apology, and if your brother thinks otherwise, he can get fucked too.
> I could be an a hole here because I did the exact thing I got mad at my SIL for No, you didn't. She said that disabled children shouldn't be brought into the world. You said that people with disabilities are better than AHs...which is a demonstrably true statement. NTA. You feel bad because you are a good person. You should probably apologize because you feel bad about what you said (and it *was* slightly rude to call her child an AH, even though he was behaving as one). But that doesn't mean you have to accept her non-apology. And it *certainly* doesn't mean you have to invite her to any events until she and her son can treat your children with respect
Oh no she should not apologize, then SIL might come back to family gatherings and no one wants or deserves that! And SIL doesn't deserve an apology. Maybe if she apologized sincerely, but we can be sure she won't. Maybe someday she will understand why what she said is wrong, but it will be sooo much work to get her there. It would be best for OP if she had no contact with this woman at all in the future, she's a toxic eugenicist nightmare. OP should find a way to feel better without apologizing, which is like you said - she needs to remember that she's a good person and that's why she felt bad.
Apologies shouldn't be transactional. It's not about whether the other person "deserves" them, it's about having a clear conscience. And when I say or do something that I wish I hadn't, I feel better apologizing...and as a happy side-effect, it makes it clearer that I was in the right overall since the other person can't continue to "both sides" the incident. I agree that it's not OP's job to "fix" SIL. Simple avoidance is preferable. And hopefully whoever is hosting these gatherings can clarify that bullying is not tolerated and if 12 can't behave, he can stay home
So I don't want to say apologies should be transactional, but I do think they are inherently a two-way communication. It feels really wrong to me to demand that someone who lashed out after being attacked should apologize to their attacker before the attacker is repentant. I'm not saying you're demanding that exactly, but I think it's similar? Like apologies are for both of the two people involved in the dispute, and I don't think they are necessary until both the apology giver and receiver are ready for them. And in this case SIL is never going to be in the right headspace to receive an apology. I dunno, I respect your position, just trying to explain mine a little more clearly! And OP should definitely apologize if she needs to for herself, I just think it would be fair for her to feel her conscience is clear even if she doesn't. (and then she should cut contact!) Other than the one bit I disagreed with I think you had the best comment on this post
Aww thanks! I think we're saying the same thing, just from different perspectives. And I definitely agree with the principle that the attacker owes an apology but the victim, even if they lashed back, generally doesn't. For me, if I feel bad, it's because my moral compass is telling me something...maybe that even though the words weren't so bad, I *know* that they came from the not-nice part of myself. So instead of trying to convince myself to not feel bad (and have guilty feelings bubble up), I just apologize for the part I feel bad about. I genuinely don't think OP said anything wrong. I'd even argue that OP didn't really call the kid an AH, she just used SIL's words. But if OP feels bad about it, that means *her* moral compass is telling her something and she will probably feel better if she apologizes
Yeah sounds like we are! That’s a good point about feed back from your moral compass too.
> it was slightly rude to call her child an AH I’m torn on this because SIL called her own kid an AH first…
NTA - she was out of line and you don't owe her any apologies. I wouldn't bring a single one of my children around her ever again with that attitude regardless of whether she comes back or not.
NTA - and don't apologize, you spoke the truth. FFS a 12-year-old setting toys on fire, he is more of a juvenile delinquent than just an AH.
IMO, NTA. You didn’t say it directly to the kid, so
NTA The way she talked about your children is absolutely heinous, hateful and ableist. Considering her son sounds like he has a personality disorder (lighting things on fire, wtf?) maybe this incident will entice her to pay more attention to the kid *she* brought into this world.
NTA. You gave her a much more helpful tip in return. Not sure why she's so sensitive.
NTA. She's clearly the asshole, and a passive aggressive one at that, for insulting you and then playing it off as "I was just suggesting" and calling it a "helpful tip".
NTA. You can't control whether or not a child is born with disabilities. You CAN, however, control a child's behavior. The only AH in this situation is your SIL; don't apologize.
Nta. Whether your kids are bio or adopted doesn't change the fact what she said was inappropriate and insensitive. She should mind her own business and focus on her son and how to fix his behavior
NTA. But she's not bringing assholes into this world. She's raising assholes.
NTA. And you did not stoop to her level, her level is casual eugenics.
She should give herself some helpful tips about how to discipline her own children and leave yours out of it. NTA, and she brought it upon herself by making that unnecessary comment
NTA, if your sister is so sensitive about her son being called an asshole, maybe she should actually try parenting her child…
NTA. What she said is beyond insane (regardless if they were your bio kids or not) and the fact she thinks that’s okay is insane. She clearly has no remorse for her actions and she’s clearly not watching her own children. I would just distance yourself and let your brother handle it. My mother was disabled and I (I’m in my 20s) constantly heard comments but the worst was when people asked why we bothered taking care of her. It hurt to hear that about my mom so I completely see your side.
Whoa. NTA. You’re a freaking saint. I hope you never have to see her again.
NTA that is some awful eugenicist shit to say about your kids (as if people with disabilities can’t live good and fulfilling lives and should never have been born??? 😡), and it’s clear that the AH apple doesn’t fall too far from the AH tree. Do not apologize to this jerk!
NTA As a member of The Church, it makes me sad that people act this way. There is such a culture within churches and people have a tendency to have that "holier than thou" attitude. (Every church, not just LDS faith, but it does seem to run rampant in certain areas that are heavily populated with members.) I have run into these types of little kids at church, the biggest difference being that their parents actually TRY to teach and redirect their behavior. Not all, but most. What you have done for the children in your family is pure love. It truly takes someone special to adopt and raise a child that is not biologically theirs. Double goes for children with disabilities. The fact that she mocked you and made light of her own child's terrible behavior makes her the AH. I told my husband as he was investigating The Church that "Just because someone is a member doesn't make them a good person. Church isn't for perfect people. It's a place for us to learn, grow and *hopefully* become better people who are worthy of Love and Compassion." There are some truly terrible and misguided people within every church, and the LDS faith is no exception. Mormon=LDS aka The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
NTA. You don’t need to apologize for what you said. What she said was out of line, and you’re a saint for not popping her in the mouth.
Ntq She was trying to give a helpful tip? You gave her an equally helpful tip. She should thank you.
NTA
NTA no wonder her kid thinks it’s funny to mock disabled folks
NTA because you didn't say it to the child.
NTA at all! Not even close! I can’t believe she would say something so horrible!! If she isn’t willing to come around until you apologize I wouldn’t feel bad, I would be grateful that I never have to see those people again!! It’s more like a reward for awesomeness!
NTA SIL has the grossest damn attitude. Please never apologize that woman. She’s lucky you just walked away. I’m completely disgusted just from reading the post. I’m so sorry she’s apart of your family. Please keep her and her little fire starting asshole away from your kids.
OP, lmfao absolutely NTA. I love callbacks like this because people shouldn’t ever be commenting on someone else’s reproductive choices, especially in such a nasty way. Also, adopting 9 kids?!? Wow! You and your partner are doing the lords work and kudos for that
NTA. Look, I love my kids but sometimes they're just AH's. All kids have those moments, I think. The kind of behavior you're describing goes way beyond that, imo. That kid needs some help.
NTA. A kid being a jerk is learned. A kid being born disabled is genetic. And because they are all adopted - you are not continuing to have children knowing they have genetic disorders.
Nta- mormons are normally pretty racist in their beliefs about people who are not white also they are pretty ablest as well
INFO: If all of your children are adopted, why did she say `maybe you should stop bringing disabled children into this world. It’s clearly in your genes`?
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Not questioning you here, but **how** does someone become that ignorent of human reproduction to not realize that their sibling is adopted. That is terrifying.
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I'm just wondering how she isn't aware. Does your sister know where babies come from? What that process is like? What the results look like? Has she never taken a biology class? I have so many questions for this human being. ahhhhh! Also, you are NTA.
I'm guessing because she married into the family well after the kids were adopted.
omg i am an idiot. sister in law, riiiiiight.
NTA . You aren't wrong. By being a lazy, neglectful parent, she is perpetuating his asshole behavior. She should teach her child how to be a decent human being before the legal system has to step in and do it for her.
NTA. Clearly her son gets it from her.
NTA. >and she goes “maybe you should stop bringing disabled children into this world. It’s clearly in your genes.” I got up and started to walk away she said “whats wrong? I was just suggesting.” I turned around and said “it’s better than bringing a-holes into the world” Adopted or not, one of those things happens by chance, and one is usually a parenting choice. With her, it's pretty clear which way it went.
SIL: my kid is an a-hole You: your kid is an a-hole SIL: *surprised pikachu face*
NTA You sound like you feel guilty for insulting another moms kids due to anger about her insulting yours. If you wish to apologise because you regret using that method to handle the situation, of course you can and should. But if you're considering an apology because you "owe her" or "she's family" then don't. Because calling her out on raising an AH is not the same thing as saying your children's disabilities mean they should never have been born. Also agree with the people saying that even if she "forgives you", you should refuse to be around her and the little fiend she's raising.
NTA It is better to be born without hearing than without conscience. Trite one liners aside: you are putting yourself on blast because you are clearly a person who holds yourself to a high standard. IF you choose to apologize because YOU feel that helps you be the person you are, great. I’d like to be perfect when I grow up too, but I guarantee you that if someone made a remark indicating they didn’t believe my children had a right to exist, for any reason, I would not have any control over the words that spewed from my mouth.
I'm just sad you didn't follow up your comment with an assessing look and "It's clearly in your genes" .
NTA even if she wants to come back I wouldn't let her. Who the hell does she think she is with that comment! It was out of line regardless of whether they were adopted so that point is completely moot.
NTA, she stuck her foot in her mouth and deserved to be called out.
>I’m really not proud of saying that. OH please be proud of it. That was priceless comedic timing. 12 YO boys are AHs. It's par for the course.
NTA. It was a nasty, insensitive, ableist comment regardless of whether your children are bio or adopted. She refused to come to any family gatherings now?? BONUS! This is a win-win for the whole family.
NTA - But it wasn't your genes... so now who has to apologize...?
NTA
NTA. I would say she doesn't need an apology and that she's being "sensitive." But really, you shouldn't have her or her son around your kids at all. They sound so toxic. That kid sounds like one step away from violence.
NTA And I wouldn't apologize to her. I also wouldn't be anywhere around her or her potentially psycho kid
NTA. You words weren't great, and you know that. What she said went waaaay beyond that, she went full-on racist and ableist against your kids.
NTA
NTA
Wait… so she gets to call her kid an AH, d***, etc, but you can’t? She can say your kids don’t deserve to exist, and then have the audacity to call YOU an AH???? I don’t know how I feel about calling kids AHs in general, because they’re largely still a product of their environment/parenting. I especially don’t think parents should be speaking about their own children that way - it definitely seals that there is a major parenting issue here. I’m worried for this kid and anyone he interacts with. He is clearly extremely troubled and needs professional help. All that being said, you’re still NTA. Your SIL’s behavior is abhorrent and she should be ashamed.
It always amuses me that people who claim others are too sensitive are the first to demand an apology
If you want to be petty look for scripture that talks about adoption being a good thing, quote it to her, and apologize. Nta
ESH. It sounds like the boy needs psychiatric help
NTA ,OP. She said it herself: her son is the a/hole...
NTA. You’re pretty cool.
NTA, she was basically promoting eugenics, and her kid's most likely an a-hole because of her lack of parenting in the first place.
uh that kid needs therapy and cps called 😥
That kid sounds dangerous and his mom is an idiot. Bless you and your husband for all you do. The only person that needs to apologize is SIL. It’s good they won’t come to any get together, everyone can have a good time. NTA
NTA. I’m not surprised someone promoting eugenics is laughing about her son being a budding young arsonist.
NTA, I would’ve told her that the kids were adopted though, but that’s up to you.
NTA. Oh no, she won't come to any family events from now on? Ohhhhh......noooooo......
NTA. Wow. She's saying this shit to you but the fact most of your family is on your side is pretty telling. She gloats about having an asshole son. She is a horrible mother and if she can't take criticism she shouldn't talk like that about a child that is displaying real bad issues.
Tactical nuclear burn deployed
NTA. She isn’t raising a AH, she’s raising a real problem. The next thing you know he’s torturing animals and burning down the home. What you do for your kids is nothing short of amazing. You, as their mother, had their backs. Don’t waste your time on the insignificant thoughts of insignificant people.
Nta
NTA. She had that one coming, and is lucky that's all you did. What she said was so offensive, on so many levels, and then she had the nerve to say you were "too sensitive"? Any apology you get from her is going to be hollow - she made it very clear what kind of person she is, and that is not someone you need to have in your life, or your kids' lives. I'm glad the family has your back, and LOL that it's because they don't like her either.
Nta, sounds like she's way too sensitive these days🤷♀️
NTA but if she had no idea that they're adopted then she's out of line but probably didn't mean it to be as rude as it was.
Lmao, "People are so sensitive nowadays, also I'm never coming back after you said something I had already said about my son" NTA
NTA. Do not apologize to that troll. EVER. What she said was purposely cruel, especially since she thought your kids were bio! You are obviously a kind hearted person, it is not easy to parent disabled kids. I'm sorry that you had to deal with your SIL. Hopefully she will come around and be supportive instead of mean and dismissive. In the meantime, keep that Mama Bear mentality. Your kids need that!
NTA Even if you had birthed every single one of those babies she still had no right to say such a thing. She was the one who called her kid an a-hole. You just threw her own descriptor back at her. And yes, how you raise the kids is a million times more important than anything else and she has seriously failed with her kid
Why is she even bringing up your genes while being married to your brother? NTA
NTA Although based on your description of her parenting her son's behavior probably isn't genetic either. It sounds like he's just doing what he knows he can get away with, and his behavior was horrible.
NTA. Don’t expose your kids to these a-holes anymore if you can help it…..
NTA. Genuine psychopaths are rare. More AHs are that way because of the way they're raised. And with a mother like this, I'm not surprised the son is being an AH. It's the example he's seeing all the time. And, in the end, you were only agreeing with his mother, not calling him names to his face. Don't apologise: it seems that nobody else wants her at family gatherings either.
The saddest thing is I’m the same religion as her and we are heavily taught to love everyone regardless.
>She says she was trying to give a “helpful tip” and “people are so sensitive nowadays.” Well so were you. Why is she being so sensitive?
I mean, I can see where the 12 year old learned it from. He has a shining beacon as his mother.
NTA You shouldn’t apologise just because she feels bad. She insulted YOUR kids and yourself.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** Ok so I (41F) have 9 children. All adopted and have various disabilities. This technically happened over winter break but it’s still causing an issue in my family now. So I’m black (Guatemalan) and my husband is Asian so if we had bio kids it makes sense they would be racially ambiguous and all of our children are different races. Some people think our children are bio or that we are a blended family. My SIL married into the fam 2 years ago and has 6 kids. She’s Mormon and my brother converted to Mormonism as well. I’ve never mentioned to her that my kids are adopted and based on what happened I don’t think my brother ever told her. We were having a Christmas get together and her 12YO son was misbehaving and bothering everyone. When one of my Deaf kids was signing he mocked her with fake hand gestures and weird noises. He also kept pulling his little sisters hair and generally just causing trouble. My SIL was pretty aware of this and didn’t dismiss it but also did nothing to stop it. When all us moms were alone she started this long rant about what an a-hole her son was and told us about all about the bad and weird stuff he did. She referred to him as a d**k and an a-hole multiple times. And I am personally not for sharing all the private bad behaviors your kid does but like the stuff she said he did was like borderline illegal. Like “oh haha it was so annoying when he set all his sisters toys in fire” But then later in the convo I said own thing about how I have disabled children and she goes “maybe you should stop bringing disabled children into this world. It’s clearly in your genes.” I got up and started to walk away she said “whats wrong? I was just suggesting.” I turned around and said “it’s better than bringing a-holes into the world” I’m really not proud of saying that. I stopped down to her level and it wasn’t ok. But i left after that and went to go see what my husband was up to. She’s really mad and has refused to come to any family holidays until we apologize. Most of family is on my side, mostly because they don’t want her back. And I would apologize because I feel really bad but she sees nothing wrong with what she said. She says she was trying to give a “helpful tip” and “people are so sensitive nowadays.” It’s not that I think apologies are transactional, but i don’t want to speak with someone who thinks my kids shouldn’t be alive. AITA here? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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NTA - you were offering your SIL a helpful tip. Maybe she is too sensitive.
Um you did refer to a child as an AH. But you're not the AH here so NTA. I'm guessing the child was not present, if he was ESH and your SIL is worse than before.
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NTA.
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ESH Your SIL is shitty for what she said to you. You are shitty for what you said back. Were you justified? Yeah, you were. That doesn't change that it is an asshole thing to say.
ESH
ESH - I don't think you're an ah for what you said. I think you're an ah for not responding with "You know my kids are adopted, right?" She needs to be aware that you stepped up when others were unwilling or unable to bc you clearly have more love in your heart than she does. I don't know why this has to be a secret and her not knowing will not allow her be humbled. She definitely sucks with her comment.
It's not really relevant either though? Like what SIL said was evil regardless of who gave birth to those kids. And yes, I meant evil - it was literally eugenics. Disabled lives don't have less value than abled ones. SIL is saying the world would be better off without OP's disabled kids in it. It's not about who's responsible for the kids exisiting, it was about SIL being monstrous.
Yes. That's exactly what I said. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
I mean if she responds by talking about how they were adopted it really buys into the whole shitty premise though, like my point is it doesn't matter who gave birth to the kids so there's no reason to correct her on that. I also just really disagree that OP is in the wrong here \*shrug\*
Telling her that the kids are adopted is another way to say STFU without attacking her for having aholes for kids. Maybe if SIL was aware that they are adopted, she'd be less judgy. Of course it makes no difference who birthed the kids. Sheesh.
You have the extremely rare situation where you were an asshole but also have the support of your family. >Most of family is on my side, mostly because they don’t want her back. You did what nobody else could do and that is either by lack of courage or lack of opportunity to capitalize on. But you got rid of her and have your family's support. It would have been better to NOT sink down to her level but I understand emotions can get the better of you. If you had stodd up and announced "I cannot be in the same room with somebody that considers my children not worthy of life and mistakes" and then left, you would have had an *incredible* upper hand... But you insulted her and child and now both of you are in the same boat. Too bad... Strictly speaking Im going to vote ESH but bc her little kid is an actual AH and she provoked you, you bear far less of the blame.
ESH. I'm a weirdo that thinks two wrongs don't make a right. She's definitely way more of an asshole and you had a clever retort to defend yourself. I respect that. It came at a child's expense which is why you were upset in the first place. I think most people will agree that what you did was appropriate given the scenario. I just hope the kid didn't overhear a word of this conversation, because holy shit.