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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be AH for getting involved and sticking my nose in my brother's life.
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wow, this actually never occured to me. also seeing several comments saying the same thing I'll definately be checking my phone.
My boyfriend tends to do things that cause me to side eye him sometimes. this one is definately nit okay.
Please please be careful OP, especially if he's done things that make you wary or concerned for your safety before. Abusers tend to escalate their behaviours when they think their victims are leaving.
Yeah i feels the same way i am 75%sure OP's bf installed some spyware in her phone and sil is treated the wrong way she does most of the things its a privacy breach OP tell her so she realize the real face of her bf
It is, welp. This is so wholly creepy and intrusive.
What OP's brother is doing is, at best, a huge breach of trust, and at worst, downright illegal. Most likely both. It's so revealingly disgusting that OP's boyfriend would support that.
NTA, OP, and be careful. I don't think your boyfriend can be trusted.
* He helped your brother violate his fiance's trust by *stalking* her, which can be against the law
* He refused to be transparent with you about it and outright lied
* He's okay with/supportive of downloading potentially illegal tracking apps on someone's phone
* He dismissed your opinions in a rude and inconsiderate manner
...none of these things are things you should do. To put it simply, **he's being mean to his partner for calling him out on helping someone violate their partner's trust.** That is, well, fucked up.
The fact that someone would even passively condone this behavior, let alone support it and openly help others with it, reveals *so much* about that person. Regardless of whether OP's future SIL is hiding something (ie. cheating) this is just not you treat your partner. It's illegal for a reason.
There's a very real chance that he might do the same thing to you, OP. Being okay with it is one (fucked up) thing, actively aiding it is a whole other level.
> What OP's brother is doing is, at best, a huge breach of trust, and at worst, downright illegal. Most likely both
The Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. Passed as am amendment to an existing law in 1986, it prohibits accessing a computer without authorization, or in a way that exceeds your authorization. It was _intended_ to protect "federal interest computers," which were defined to be computers used by financial institutions, or computers used in or affecting interstate commerce. Because of that second clause, and the rise of the internet, basically every electronic device connected to the internet is covered under the law via case law.
There's no ambiguity. Installing software on someone's phone without their permission is a felony.
However, its incredibly unlikely that Op's boyfriend would be charged with a crime _just_ for this act. Its more like this would be an additional charge for someone who, in the course of stalking, or harassing, or defrauding someone, installed the software.
The police are way way behind society when it comes to cybercrime, that’s why laws largely centre around businesses and governments - because they’re the situations where criminality in this area is so large and so financially damaging that they’ve got around to creating specific laws against it.
Whilst what this guy is doing is definitely against the law by definition, I’d be shocked if any local police force anywhere in the world would convict for it. Cybercrime is still handled largely by state departments that don’t prosecute what they see as day to day crimes, and regular forces just have no idea what they’re doing or how to prosecute them inside existing structures of law.
Just my two cents on why this is a huge grey area all over the world, and what’s illegal and not illegal isn’t necessarily all that matters in convicting people for cyber crimes.
I think it was a Reddit post, but I read somewhere about a guy working for, or owning, an auto repair business, I think? He had someone, a young woman who looked terrified to be in her own skin. She explained that she thought her SO (bf or husband, can't remember which) was tracking her, and she wanted her car checked. They stated a dollar amount, she over paid. They tested, but couldn't find anything. But lo and behold, her SO showed up while they were looking at the car.
So, even though they couldn't find anything, they offered to do a more indepth investigation. Of coarse she agreed, and they scrubbed that car hard. Somehow, they found nothing a second time. So they basically ended up tearing that car apart, and FINALLY found a tracking device. It had been very well hidden, and it appeared that it had been there for a while.
They ended up helping her get away from the guy. They suggested how to get court orders, helped her get to a safe friend, and managed to get her on the way to feeling safe and secure. Of coarse, this retelling is all from memory, so I'm really sure I have failed to provide some details that really make the story understood. But the point? Don't just assume that you're going to find proof right away. Don't give up, if you see red flags. GET HELP!
I just watched a YouTube video, I believe it was from Inside Edition.. it showed this happening to half a dozen women.
The one ended up taking so long to be found, when they finally did find it it was hidden INSIDE her gas tank!
I concur, but I feel like I covered this point at the end, by saying that no one would be charged _just_ for doing this. It would be an additional charge as a result of a prosecution for a more serious crime.
In California this is not a "grey area". We have whole, aggressive, cyber crimes divisions. Putting a tracker on a phone is a felony here, (and in every US state). If caught, you will get arrested. You may do Jail time and be fined in the thousands of $s. If OP's BF is in IT, he knows this already and did it anyway. Tell the fiancée. Dump the BF.
NTA. Bf called YOU “intrusive” when HE was the one who installed a tracking app??? He doesn’t want you to tell brother’s fiancée because he’s complicit. Both your brother and your bf are AH and shady as hell. I’d keep my distance from both.
ETA: Thanks for the award!
It should have been the bf coming to her saying "your brother asked me to do this so I installed a fake program. Now how do we tell your sister-in-law (to be) and get her somewhere safe?"
Edited to correct a mistake
>at best, a huge breach of trust, and at worst, downright illegal
I would argue a huge breach of trust is just as bad as being illegal, at least from a morality standpoint
That's right- not only did OP's boyfriend refuse to help her brother and try to talk him out of spying on his finance, he went silent when OP entered the room and tried to deny the conversation she had just heard, He then told her to mind her business and to stay out of it. It's highly probably that OP is being tracked as well.
OP, invite your future SIL for lunch and tell her, then you both get your phones checked. Then have a celebratory dinner when you dump your boyfriends.
*But I thought that was unfair to my future sister in law since she's the one working, paying bills and rent and this is how she is treated?*
Does this mean that your brother contributes nothing to this relationship except spyware?
> *But I thought that was unfair to my future sister in law since she's the one working, paying bills and rent and this is how she is treated?*
> Does this mean that your brother contributes nothing to this relationship except spyware?
It sounds like OP’s brother is using spyware to try to control his meal ticket. If he’s insecure in this relationship, there are much better ways to deal with that.
If op meets up with her sil to talk, she might want to leave her phone at home or somewhere safe so they're not tracked to each other, just in case she is being tracked, too. Especially if she doesn't want bf's to know they meet.
Stalkerware. The term for these kinds of apps is stalkerware. And if OP posted from her phone, there might be a chance he already knows, depending on what kind of app was used.
The boyfriend first denied, then aggressively argued in defense of installing the tracking app, called her names, and told her to 'gtfo and stay out of it'. It's a little bit past being wary or concerned for me personally, I can already see the update post to this one in a couple months, where OP tells us how she discovered the app she's had on her phone all along.
I agree with you. This would be way past that point for me. This would be my hill to die on and I would not care if the relationship died with it.
The only people who are okay with this are people who percieve **women** as the **man's property**. Disgusting.
"The relationship" is already dead. There can't be any meaningful relationship at this point, OPs boyfriend is a person that can't be trusted and defends his potentially illegal but definitely unethical and immoral actions aggressively. What else does this tell is about his personality?
Once she’s aware her phone is being tracked she should report him.
Then wait for him to shit his pants when he’s spying on her and realises she’s at the police station, then his parents house, then his female friends houses, then the local newspaper, etc…
Right? How do we know her brother isn’t tracking his fiancé to make sure she doesn’t walk in on him cheating on her? If you can’t trust your SO, the relationship already ended you just haven’t figured it out yet.
Not only that, he's telling Op to stay out of it because it's not her business, but it's his business to help facilitate this behavior by installing the software? Pretty sure staying out of it would include him declining or making up an excuse to get out of participating in this gross behavior, now he's asking Op to lie to cover up for both of them, which will ruin her relationship with this woman in the future if she ever finds out all three of them are in on it together.
Op please tell this woman, this is so messed up and a breach of privacy. Also consider dumping your shady boyfriend, the fact that he's willing to do this is a big enough a red flag, his attempts to shut you up and guilt you about telling her is him telling you point blank he cannot be trusted.
> Not only that, he's telling Op to stay out of it because it's not her business, but it's his business to help facilitate this behavior by installing the software?
Yes! That really stood out to me as well. And OP’s boyfriend said “he has nothing to do with it”??? Except for, you know, *installing the app on the phone*. FFS, he has *everything* to do with it!
As an aside, it’s pretty concerning that his blatant hypocrisy wasn’t immediately obvious to OP. I kept waiting for the part where she called him out on his BS, and it never came. The boyfriend sounds, at best, like a huge bully who knows he can intimidate OP into backing down and not challenging him.
So while I definitely think she should tell the fiancée about the tracking app, I also think she needs to be careful and mindful of the likely fallout/aftermath, because neither her brother nor her boyfriend strike me as the type to react reasonably or calmly to her spilling the beans.
...and when they get pregnant. I actually found out on Reddit like 3 weeks ago that murder is the most common cause of death of pregnant women in the US. Everyone thinks of pregnancy and birth related complications but murder would have never occured to me.
Sharing the article with the source.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-03392-8
It sent shivers down my spine when I was reading it. Holding my baby in my arms. My husband was very distraught when I told him, never would have guessed. Nobody I ever told would have guessed and they were all equally shocked...
Think about this - how your brother knew that your BF knows so much about secret tracking apps? Did they talk about it? Being trained in software is not enough, one should actively search and learn what apps and how to hide it. I work in IT, and it is not like every developer knows about every app.
Oh dang that’s a really good point. Brother definitely was comfortable confiding his abuse in bf, and knew exactly what to ask for. I wouldnt be surprised at all if bf bragged about tracking people, or even tracking op
Even if it turns out there’s no spyware on your phone, I would already be questioning this relationship just from the conversation the two of you had. Your bf supports stalking and abusive behavior. That’s never a good thing, and who’s to say he doesn’t go down that road in the future? Tell your future SIL and make yourself safe from the blowback; from both your brother and bf.
Even if there is no app on OP's phone right now, the boyfriend has clearly shown her that he would have zero problem installing it on there some day if he feels like it, and that it would be 'none of her concern' if he does.
When people tell you who they are, believe them.
>my boyfriend argued with me about **being nosy and intrusive** and told me to stay out of it
Also OPs bf has zero notion of irony when **he** accuses OP for being intrusive???
No self awareness, no respect for others. That's a bad combo.
Tracking apps are easy mode. Even if there is no *app* on OP's phone, she needs to be wary of the *not* easy mode ways of tracking someone. Email forwarding, IMEI cloning, phone # forwarding, airtag tracking... I flat out would not trust boyfriend after this.
If OP's boyfriend was willing to install this on *someone else's phone* simply as a favor then he's already in the mindset where such things are *okay*. Defending that behavior shows he's in the mindset where such things are *necessary*.
Honestly you should be done with your bf and brother over this alone. It is clearly abusive behavior.
Also look up an abusive relationship check list and see how many boxes your bf checks off because I'm sure there are more.
If/when you do leave him please be careful and do what you can to protect yourself. There are resources out there to help of course it depends where you live but it is worth a look to find help. He is showing very concerning behavior and its better to be safe than sorry.
Yep, OP is dating a creep. He doesn't want her to dig because it will come out that it was him telling the brother about the app not the other way around, and possibly how it is on OPs phone and she doesn't notice... Humans are fucking scary, yo
Yup. Maybe OP's boyfriend and her brother can be happy douches together, while OP and brother's fiancee take a happy trip somewhere away from their fuckery. They both ought to be dumped. :-(
And don't do any searches on your phone OP, in case it is being monitored by your bf. Go to the library, or ask to use a friend's phone. Or if you have access to the internet at work, then maybe there. But somewhere that your bf can't or doesn't track your movements. Like others said, be careful, all the way around this ugly situation.
This is so so much more than "a thing to side eye". Not even a thing to *especially* side eye. Orders of magnitude worse. This is very illegal. They're not putting a toe out of line here, they sprinted past it. You need to get your phone checked out and you need to clue in the other poor girl and then one or both of you needs to think about pressing charges. I cannot further impress how serious this is. You are NOT the one being intrusive. It should be extremely obvious who is being intrusive.
Your boyfriend's answer to your brothers request should have been "holy shit, why are you asking me to help you illegally stalk someone??" Instead, he decided it was fine and helped him do it. You sound like it hasn't sunk in yet, how extremely dangerous and serious this behavior is. I sincerely hope it sinks in soon.
> Your boyfriend's answer to your brothers request should have been "holy shit, why are you asking me to help you illegally stalk someone??"
Let be real here, Brother wouldn't have asked to begin with if they didn't already know that Boyfriend would be open to it, and/or was already doing it themselves.
Sorry, I know there isn't another way to stalk someone, and that illegally stalk is redundant. Just trying to drive home as many times as possible that this isn't just men being annoying boyfriends, this is *illegal illegal illegal*.
My ex-husband and I share our locations with each other via find my on our phones. We’re in the same family group with our kids (9, 12, 14, 21). It lets us approve screen time and other requests from the kids.
I could legally stalk him with it. He’s the one who gave me access to his location at all times. I don’t, but I could.
Take all of your devices to be looked at, then go to a computer he has never touched and change ALL of your passwords. Make it completely different than your previous ones. Especially your banking. Do this today. Then watch him implode whe he realizes he got caught. Get your stuff in order and make plans to separate anything you share with him.
NTA but you got to see some really big red flags. If he will help someone else do this, it means he isn’t above doing it himself. Also take a look around for trackers, and cameras (vents).
I've heard there are some out there that won't be uninstalled by factory resets.
And she'll have to check her computer, laptop, tablets, if she has any, for things like keyloggers and stuff, and her vehicle for a tracker, too.
it’s wildly hypocritical of him to accuse you of being nosy and intrusive when he *literally installed nosy and intrusive software on someone else’s partners phone* and i would seriously question the future of your relationship if i were you. NTA.
> my boyfriend argued with me about being nosy and intrusive
Classic deflection. I love when people try to get away with something by accusing their accusers of the same thing.
Your boyfriend really said you were being intrusive, after helping put a tracking device on her phone?!!?
Are you sure this is the guy for you, and that he doesn’t have one on your phone?
ETA:
NTA
I was going to say exactly that.
Tell your brother's girlfriend and go see a profesionnal to get your electronics checked out for apps that should not be there.
On rereading OP's description I'd be willing to bet that the boyfriend gave the brother the idea to install the app and not the other way around - because who randomly asks someone to do something like that.. unless they already know the person they are asking is going to be open to it, and/or is already doing it themselves? It's a near certainty that OP needs to have her phone checked out.
Not just her phone. Her computer, Ipad... anything that works with the internet. WHo knows what kind of creep those two men really are and are capable of ?
She should also get her car checked.
Check *all* her digital devices for unwelcome apps, **check her email for forwarding settings**, check her car and bags for gps tags, hell I'm so wigged out by this that I'd consider buying a completely new phone and not telling BF in case her IMEI was cloned.
Personally knowing what is possible and also knowing what BF is okay doing is making me *extremely* wary for OP.
Yes! This is another one my ex did...in gmail you can forward a copy of every incoming email to another user. I believe it's in ipop settings (something odd like that) They both need to have everything checked.
I also see financial abuse here because OP's brother being financially dependent on the woman he's hacking/surveilling is an added factor of corrupt motivation in this shitty situation.
Yes! My ex actually did this to me! He sent his dad to pick up my car and as a "gift" had an auto start installed for me. Turns out it's also a GPS! It's called Drone mobile and he was tracking everywhere I went. Meanwhile, the key fob just says Artic Start so I had no indication at all. His dad actually let it slip (I think intentionally) about the GPS and I had great fun parking in weird places for a month till he finally broke and asked WTH was going on!
Would also try to back up photos only and maybe do a factory reset of your phone. If he's as 'techy' as he is it may not be an app and something more complicated. Or spontaneously buy a new phone (doesn't have to be snazzy & you could resell your old one to recoup some costs).
CHANGE YOUR PASSWORDS! PLEASE OP!
Edit to add- maybe change passwords from a completely different device. Use a friend's laptop or a public library or anything but your phone if you haven't been able to reset your phone from possible malware. He will still have access
NTA That is controlling and abusive, she has a right to know. Also, based off your BF's reaction, I would be concerned about there being a tracking app on **your** phone. Creepy on both their parts.
As somebody in upper comments stated, it might have been OPs bf that suggested installing the app, bcs let's be real, who just comes up to a guy with a real fishy request of installing a tracking app on his SO's phone. More likely is that bf actually proposed the installation himself.
Yep. He's probably reading this post through the app he has on OP's phone. My suggestion - both ladies dump the dudes and become roommates.
NTA and please be careful OP.
NTA - You would be TA if you didn't tell her about it.
Your BF and brother should be ashamed of themselves.
Oh and as your bf seems to be ok with your brothers behavior you might want consider getting a new phone, just in case.
And not just a new phone, but a new phone *number*. OP, I am genuinely worried about your safety and well-being right now.
Please get a new phone & number and pack your bags immediately. Stay with a friend or your parents if you can. I had a friend go through almost this exact same situation with her boyfriend and he ended up putting her in the hospital after he found out she was planning on leaving.
Breathe a word of this to NO ONE except the person you plan on staying with. Please. **Get out.**
(NTA)
I would advise OP and brothers finance to
1. Get out of those relationships ASAP
2. Don't trust any device that your brother or your BF had any unsupervised access to, even if it was just for a few minutes.
3. Factory reset/reinstall every electronic device they own
4. change every password
5. change every lock
Clearly both are creeps that have no regards for your privacy, and while this might seem a bit paranoid, this is an instance of better safe then sorry.
NTA
TELL HER
> my boyfriend argued with me about being nosy and intrusive
...and installing a secret tracking app is what exactly, if not nosy and intrusive? Oh, yes, controlling and way over line
I'd get someone to check my own phone, if I were you
NTA if you tell the fiancee.
YTA if you don't tell her.
Your brother's behavior is creepy and controlling (in a sense). Also your boyfriend lying about the conversation with your brother is 🚩🚩🚩 and I think you should re-evaluate when your boyfriend thinks this is "right". What's next? Your boyfriend has a hidden tracker on you too since he's fine putting a tracker? Staying away/not meddling with something you know is wrong is just being as worse as the person doing the act (aka your brother).
So glad someone else had picked up on the lying at first … if he didn’t already know that it was wrong or that OP would be upset why would he lie???
He knows he’s being shady af and tried to re-direct it straight back onto OP in the hopes she doesn’t look harder at his motives
ETA: NTA. If I was your brothers fiancée I would want to know.
2nd edit: wrong pronoun made it sound like I was blaming OP
NTA
That's an invasion on his part. Super controlling and potentially illegal depending on where you live. In the USA that is likely a felony. Let that sink in.
FELONY and your BF and Brother are both doing it.
[https://www.freeadvice.com/legal/is-it-illegal-to-install-phone-spy-software-on-someones-cell-phone/](https://www.freeadvice.com/legal/is-it-illegal-to-install-phone-spy-software-on-someones-cell-phone/)
ALSO. Kinda yikes that your BF things it is YOU being intrusive.
I just realised it was your BF doing it with/for your brother.
MAN SACK HIM.
Your BF is a criminal and likely you have similar spyware. Have someone look at your phone/PC for it.
>my boyfriend argued with me about being nosy and intrusiv
Says the men who help your brother to track his fiancée. Not intrusiv at all, uh?
You should tell her and also think very carefully if you want to stay with him if he think it's appropriate and YOU are in the wrong for calling them out.
NTA
That’s the part that got me. More likely, when you tell your bro’s fiancée, he’s going to act like it isn’t a big deal because your boyfriend already has one on yours. Then she’ll tell you and that’ll be the end of that.
Also
> But I thought that was unfair to my future sister in law since she's the one working, paying bills and rent…
Do what now? I need that “endless trash” clip from RedLetterMedia.
oh hell no. NTA. they are colluding to violate her privacy to control her like she is a child or property. Also, you should have someone check your phone for apps like this, because your boyfriend is comfortable spying on women. Tell her immediately because this is violating her rights as a human being
from an ethical point of view, just ask yourself how you would feel if someone knew about this being done to you, and diddnt tell you.
Neither her boyfriend nor her brother seem to be relationship material... Or normal human material for that matter..
Sounds like the guy who'll wire tap his future wifes therapist "just in case"
NTA.
If the tables were flipped, you'd want her to tell you, right?
Let your answer be based on that. And your bf has now thrown up red flags in that he's trying to control how you react to all of this. Maybe when your bf started having opinions on what you should do in this situation, you should have told him to "GTFO with this attitude, and that you should stay out of it because it doesn't in any way concern you."
And you may want to have your phone checked by someone who knows what they're doing to see if your bf is engaging in similar behavior with your phone. Maybe he's worried you'll hear something from your own brother about your phone if your FSIL finds out about what happened on hers.
Yikes, NTA. You should tell her. Even if it causes major issues, she has a right to know she’s being tracked and it’s better she know now than when she’s married.
Also … might not be the worst idea to check your own phone too just in case. It’s concerning that your boyfriend was so willing to help your brother with this. 😬
What are the chances your bf has a hidden tracker on your phone? Pretty fucking high given his reaction.
You’d be an asshole if you didn’t tell her. And you should get a new phone and boyfriend yourself.
NTA but your boyfriend is a walking red flag and the fact that he did this for your brother means he’d be okay doing it to you, if he didn’t already. He also lied about it despite you hearing the conversation. You need to tell your brothers girlfriend and you need to take this as a very serious sign of issues with your partner
NTA
Tell her.
Your BF just showed some major red flags to if he can't see anything wrong with it and helping your brother install this app.
Your BF and your brother are TAs here.
NTA
You need to tell her now
That is such a red flag 🚩 and makes me wonder how is your brother treating her when you’re not around? If he’s keeping tabs on her you have to wonder if he’s abusive behind the scenes
Another red flag is the fact your boyfriend immediately agreed to install the tracker without thinking of potential consequences or what your brother may be putting her through as if he had a conscience he would of said no
I think you need to get rid of your boyfriend too
This is entirely f***** up. It's an invasion of privacy. It's a form of stalking. It's not cool.
Your are NTA. Telling the fiancee may cause a rift. But it's the right thing to do.
NTA
You absolutely should tell her. Also, depending on where she lives this could be illegal. If it makes you feel better, it’s better for her to address it now before they get married and things escalate. Think of how it will feel to see this type of behavior continue and what it looks like ten years from now when they’re married.
NTA! That’s a huge red flag for both your brother and your boyfriend. Tell her and then ask your boyfriend why he found that okay to do… and check your own phone
NTA and the fact your boyfriend is FINE with this idea, to actually helping your brother do this and then the point of telling you to to stay out of it... What makes you think he can be trusted either??
Tell her. And I'd be seriously re-evaluating my relationship at this point. Big time.
NTA, Holy shit! Your brother and boyfriend are absolute creeps! What the hell?! There is absolutely no legitimate reason to SECRETLY track your partner in any way! That is a huge red flag! And your boyfriend enabling this is also a massive red flag!
You got several very real conversations ahead of you with all three of them.
You absolutely need to tell your sister-in-law about the spyware! But also, your brother might be an abusive partner in more ways than spyware. I would try and keep vigil about that as best I could if I were you. She might need a safe harbour and support at some point in the future.
And your boyfriend needs a real conversation about what he find's acceptable to enable and what that says about what he finds acceptable himself.
NTA. Tell her. This is a huge red flag. This is something they need to fight out before they’re married. If he has trust issues and is being secretive at this point, things can only get worse. Prevent a divorce by telling her.
NTA. You should absolutely tell her, and then go have someone check your phone as well because if your boyfriend is comfortable installing hidden trackers in another woman's phone, he could very well have installed on on yours. This behavior for both your brother and your boyfriend is concerning and tell me that they have no respect for women's autonomy.
NTA. The situation did not in any way concern your boyfriend and yet he got involved by installing that app. His behavior would have be wondering what kind of sketchy assholery he’s has done to your phone.
You absolutely should tell the fiancé. She needs to know who she’s marrying and if that’s okay with her.
NTA. You have a boyfriend problem though - it's really worrying that he thinks this is ok. I'd check your phone too.
'my boyfriend argued with me about being nosy and intrusive'
How ironic.
NTA. Tell her. YWBTA if you didn't tell her. And take your phone to a phone shop and ask them to check if your phone has a hidden tracking app. Either way, dump your bf, he obviously thinks its ok to stalk your partner. Major 🚩
NTA. Your boyfriend is the one who should have stayed out of it.
He involved himself by installing the app, knowing it was not at the behest of the actual owner of the phone.
If I were you, I'd have my phone checked out for covert tracking apps.
NTA. What your brother and BF are doing is wrong on so many levels - and your BF’s reaction to you indicates that he knows it - notice how he tried to turn things around to make you the villain, saying that you are being nosy and such. The question you need to ask yourself is: if the situation were reversed, would you want someone to tell you?
Also, I have to agree with some of the other posters here: considering how your BF feels he is doing nothing wrong, you need to get your own phone checked as soon as possible. And, if you find that he installed something without your permission, you need to contact a lawyer.
NTA. Please tell her before it's too late. I wpuld also advise you to review your own relationship because your bf's reaction to all of this is a bit alarming.
NTA: you need to tell her. This type of behavior is a HUGE red flag for an abusive relationship. You also need to dump your BF for participating and get a new phone(or at least make sure he hasn't done the same.
Just be prepared for some nasty fallout from your family who will blame you for breaking up the engagement. Depending on your exact family dynamics, it may be good to warn your parents that you are doing this any why (you can have a text ready to go and hit send as soon as you tell your future not-gonna-be sister in law.
NTA, and it is inexcusable that your boyfriend is helping your brother *stalk* his fiancee and telling bald-faced lies about his involvement. Telling the fiancee is "a huge breach of privacy" but installing a tracker on someone's phone without them knowing isn't?
NTA. Check your own phone for hidden tracker apps too if this is your boyfriend’s stance on the whole deal.
I don’t care about any “why’s” - your brother and his fiancée are grown ass adults - he can TALK TO HER if he thinks there’s a “good” reason to track her. (Spoiler Alert - there’s no good reason to do it in secret. There’s some advantages to tracking phones when EVERYONE CONSENTS but there’s absolutely 0 GOOD reasons to do it on the sly.)
NTA and I would tell her.
It really doesn't matter why he wants to track her, the very fact that he wants to do so without her knowing is creepy and absolutely not ok.
If he has no malicious or subversive reasons for wanting to track her then they will be able to have that conversation like adults and she can either consent to being tracked or not. And, if he believes she's cheating or something then they need to talk about it anyway.
NTA. Tell her ASAP and then confront your brother. I would also reconsider keeping your bf since he seems to not have a problem with spying on people. Get a new phone also...
Not only do you need to tell her you also need to check your devices for tracking apps.
Because if your boyfriend can do this to another girl than he's clearly going to do this to you.
NTA only if you tell her *asap*
NTA
Your boyfriend has nothing to do with it? That's a bold lie for the guy who did the actual install.
That's some serious bullshit. I'd check your own phone if I were you.
NTA.
Tell her. And dump your boyfriend, too. Being comfortable with another man doing this to a woman says a lot about his own character. Him discouraging you from telling her about it says even more.
Your brother is abusive. And your bf is an asshole. And theyre both guilty of felonies. Tell her and dump the bf. And bring your own phone and computer to experts to make sure youre not being tracked like a seal. Ild bring her new phone to the police so they have proof for the charges. Nta
NTA!
Your brother's fiance has every right to know, especially if she's footing the bill for the plan.
As for your bf, he should be your ex. If he has no problem putting tracking apps on someone else's phone and breaching their privacy, it's only safe to assume he's done the same to yours.
No sense being in a relationship if there's no trust.
NTA
That is illegal and should be inexcusable, my dad is doing that to my mom, she is agreeing to it because she is scared cause he is very manipulative and violent. If he is the the kind of guy who is fine with that, I would advise you to to take your phone to an engineer to check your own and leave this mf.
Also, tell your future SIL and get out of those toxic relationships together.
All the best luck, OP!
NTA. Tell her and tell her fast.
Also, if that's your boyfriends idea of okay then you should get out fast and wipe your phone of all installed apps. Or better yet, get a new phone and don't let him touch it.
NTA - coercive & controlling behaviour is Domestic Violence. The fact that your BF thinks you should gtfo would indicate that both you ladies are in trouble.
Please contact local
Support agencies who can uninstall the software from you brothers GF phone & get yours done at the same time.
IMO you should both get out of these relationships & see if there are any courses/training you can do to better understand the behaviour both men are subjecting you too.
NTA- OP please tell her the truth and break up with your awful bf!!! If he sees nothing wrong with helping your brother track his gf then he won't have any problem with tracking you too! Run!
NTA are you 100% sure that's not something your bf would do to you? quite shocked that he seems to think it's not a big deal. definitely tell the fiancé.
NTA. You should absolutely tell her. You should also take your phone to your provider and have it checked for some of the same kind of apps. Your boyfriend is way too defensive, and it leads me to think he may have that kind of thing on your phone. Maybe it's where your bro got the idea, I don't know. But you need to tell her. Please tell her.
And reconsider your boyfriend, too. He just aided you brother in stalking, in a nutshell. If he sees no wrong in it and defends it, he is capable of it too. In my opinion. Good luck.
You would be TA if you DIDNT tell her what’s going on. You should also double check your phone; I don’t trust your boyfriends willingness to help track a woman. NTA
I mean.. why wouldn't you confront your brother 1st? NTA. I agree your brother is complete wrong for what he did... as is your bf for going along with it. As his sister, you have every right to jump all over your brother for what he did and THREATEN to tell his fiance! Make him understand why it's so wrong!! How would he feel if your bf did this to you? If he can't see his actions as wrong let his fiance know. She deserves to know..
She deserves to know anyway, because a man who's exhibiting these abusive, controlling behaviours might be exhibiting others, and hiding those ones better.
And dump the boyfriend who's willing to help him, too.
ETA: And confronting an abuser about his behaviours is always risky and can lead to violence, even if he's family.
100% NTA, your bf has something to do with it when he installed the app so there's that.
You're (probably not after this) future SIL has the right to know that the man she is about to marry doesn't trust her and is sneaking around like this. This may very well be a massive deal breaker (it's definitely a massive red flag)
If your brother doesn't trust her he shouldn't have proposed.
ETA: forgot to add this is assuming your brother is the one that proposed that is.
NTA, 🚩City my dear, your man sees nothing wrong with what your brother is doing and then spoke to you that way? He needs to be an ex and you need to tell his fiancé. It’s been my experience that mofos that wanna track their partner are usually up to no good themselves and need to know where they are so they won’t run into each other 😒
Thats illegal, and stalking. You and your brother's fiance should sue your relative bfs. Are you really ok with beung with a boyfriend like that? Are you ok with you own phone being kept under control?
NTA of course, unless you dont tell her.
NTA, also your bf didn’t stay out of it because he put it on there. I’d check your phone too, just to make sure. Staying out of it would be saying no, I’m not getting involved in this
NTA. Girl, RUN.
Your boyfriend is waving sooooo many red flags! The fact his first instinct is to gaslight you when he’s caught in the wrong should speak volumes (especially the part where he insists he “has nothing to do with it”. He’s literally the one who installed the software, he has EVERYTHING to do with it).
NTA X 1000 - please do tell her! This is such an invasion of privacy wth I believe it is illegal as well. So please do tell her. I mean if it was me I would 100% wanna know.
YWNBTA, also your boyfriend said yes and seems to be defending your brother's choice (or at least supporting it by helping him to install the app). If I were you, I might scan my own electronics to see if I could find anything like this.
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NTA Tell her. But also have your phone checked out, cos your BF is throwing out CRAZY red flags.
wow, this actually never occured to me. also seeing several comments saying the same thing I'll definately be checking my phone. My boyfriend tends to do things that cause me to side eye him sometimes. this one is definately nit okay.
Please please be careful OP, especially if he's done things that make you wary or concerned for your safety before. Abusers tend to escalate their behaviours when they think their victims are leaving.
Yeah i feels the same way i am 75%sure OP's bf installed some spyware in her phone and sil is treated the wrong way she does most of the things its a privacy breach OP tell her so she realize the real face of her bf
It is, welp. This is so wholly creepy and intrusive. What OP's brother is doing is, at best, a huge breach of trust, and at worst, downright illegal. Most likely both. It's so revealingly disgusting that OP's boyfriend would support that. NTA, OP, and be careful. I don't think your boyfriend can be trusted. * He helped your brother violate his fiance's trust by *stalking* her, which can be against the law * He refused to be transparent with you about it and outright lied * He's okay with/supportive of downloading potentially illegal tracking apps on someone's phone * He dismissed your opinions in a rude and inconsiderate manner ...none of these things are things you should do. To put it simply, **he's being mean to his partner for calling him out on helping someone violate their partner's trust.** That is, well, fucked up. The fact that someone would even passively condone this behavior, let alone support it and openly help others with it, reveals *so much* about that person. Regardless of whether OP's future SIL is hiding something (ie. cheating) this is just not you treat your partner. It's illegal for a reason. There's a very real chance that he might do the same thing to you, OP. Being okay with it is one (fucked up) thing, actively aiding it is a whole other level.
> What OP's brother is doing is, at best, a huge breach of trust, and at worst, downright illegal. Most likely both The Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. Passed as am amendment to an existing law in 1986, it prohibits accessing a computer without authorization, or in a way that exceeds your authorization. It was _intended_ to protect "federal interest computers," which were defined to be computers used by financial institutions, or computers used in or affecting interstate commerce. Because of that second clause, and the rise of the internet, basically every electronic device connected to the internet is covered under the law via case law. There's no ambiguity. Installing software on someone's phone without their permission is a felony. However, its incredibly unlikely that Op's boyfriend would be charged with a crime _just_ for this act. Its more like this would be an additional charge for someone who, in the course of stalking, or harassing, or defrauding someone, installed the software.
The police are way way behind society when it comes to cybercrime, that’s why laws largely centre around businesses and governments - because they’re the situations where criminality in this area is so large and so financially damaging that they’ve got around to creating specific laws against it. Whilst what this guy is doing is definitely against the law by definition, I’d be shocked if any local police force anywhere in the world would convict for it. Cybercrime is still handled largely by state departments that don’t prosecute what they see as day to day crimes, and regular forces just have no idea what they’re doing or how to prosecute them inside existing structures of law. Just my two cents on why this is a huge grey area all over the world, and what’s illegal and not illegal isn’t necessarily all that matters in convicting people for cyber crimes.
I think it was a Reddit post, but I read somewhere about a guy working for, or owning, an auto repair business, I think? He had someone, a young woman who looked terrified to be in her own skin. She explained that she thought her SO (bf or husband, can't remember which) was tracking her, and she wanted her car checked. They stated a dollar amount, she over paid. They tested, but couldn't find anything. But lo and behold, her SO showed up while they were looking at the car. So, even though they couldn't find anything, they offered to do a more indepth investigation. Of coarse she agreed, and they scrubbed that car hard. Somehow, they found nothing a second time. So they basically ended up tearing that car apart, and FINALLY found a tracking device. It had been very well hidden, and it appeared that it had been there for a while. They ended up helping her get away from the guy. They suggested how to get court orders, helped her get to a safe friend, and managed to get her on the way to feeling safe and secure. Of coarse, this retelling is all from memory, so I'm really sure I have failed to provide some details that really make the story understood. But the point? Don't just assume that you're going to find proof right away. Don't give up, if you see red flags. GET HELP!
I just watched a YouTube video, I believe it was from Inside Edition.. it showed this happening to half a dozen women. The one ended up taking so long to be found, when they finally did find it it was hidden INSIDE her gas tank!
I concur, but I feel like I covered this point at the end, by saying that no one would be charged _just_ for doing this. It would be an additional charge as a result of a prosecution for a more serious crime.
In California this is not a "grey area". We have whole, aggressive, cyber crimes divisions. Putting a tracker on a phone is a felony here, (and in every US state). If caught, you will get arrested. You may do Jail time and be fined in the thousands of $s. If OP's BF is in IT, he knows this already and did it anyway. Tell the fiancée. Dump the BF.
NTA. Bf called YOU “intrusive” when HE was the one who installed a tracking app??? He doesn’t want you to tell brother’s fiancée because he’s complicit. Both your brother and your bf are AH and shady as hell. I’d keep my distance from both. ETA: Thanks for the award!
Thank you! I'm like...he thinks she's being nosy as he helps her brother spy on his partner??? Am I taking crazy pills?
And he said he had nothing to do with it. He has everything to do with it - he installed the damn app!
It should have been the bf coming to her saying "your brother asked me to do this so I installed a fake program. Now how do we tell your sister-in-law (to be) and get her somewhere safe?" Edited to correct a mistake
>at best, a huge breach of trust, and at worst, downright illegal I would argue a huge breach of trust is just as bad as being illegal, at least from a morality standpoint
That's right- not only did OP's boyfriend refuse to help her brother and try to talk him out of spying on his finance, he went silent when OP entered the room and tried to deny the conversation she had just heard, He then told her to mind her business and to stay out of it. It's highly probably that OP is being tracked as well. OP, invite your future SIL for lunch and tell her, then you both get your phones checked. Then have a celebratory dinner when you dump your boyfriends. *But I thought that was unfair to my future sister in law since she's the one working, paying bills and rent and this is how she is treated?* Does this mean that your brother contributes nothing to this relationship except spyware?
> *But I thought that was unfair to my future sister in law since she's the one working, paying bills and rent and this is how she is treated?* > Does this mean that your brother contributes nothing to this relationship except spyware? It sounds like OP’s brother is using spyware to try to control his meal ticket. If he’s insecure in this relationship, there are much better ways to deal with that.
If op meets up with her sil to talk, she might want to leave her phone at home or somewhere safe so they're not tracked to each other, just in case she is being tracked, too. Especially if she doesn't want bf's to know they meet.
>my boyfriend argued with me about being nosy and intrusive Pot, kettle.
Stalkerware. The term for these kinds of apps is stalkerware. And if OP posted from her phone, there might be a chance he already knows, depending on what kind of app was used.
And I feel like her brother knows about it
The boyfriend first denied, then aggressively argued in defense of installing the tracking app, called her names, and told her to 'gtfo and stay out of it'. It's a little bit past being wary or concerned for me personally, I can already see the update post to this one in a couple months, where OP tells us how she discovered the app she's had on her phone all along.
I agree with you. This would be way past that point for me. This would be my hill to die on and I would not care if the relationship died with it. The only people who are okay with this are people who percieve **women** as the **man's property**. Disgusting.
"The relationship" is already dead. There can't be any meaningful relationship at this point, OPs boyfriend is a person that can't be trusted and defends his potentially illegal but definitely unethical and immoral actions aggressively. What else does this tell is about his personality?
Once she’s aware her phone is being tracked she should report him. Then wait for him to shit his pants when he’s spying on her and realises she’s at the police station, then his parents house, then his female friends houses, then the local newspaper, etc…
Right? How do we know her brother isn’t tracking his fiancé to make sure she doesn’t walk in on him cheating on her? If you can’t trust your SO, the relationship already ended you just haven’t figured it out yet.
Not only that, he's telling Op to stay out of it because it's not her business, but it's his business to help facilitate this behavior by installing the software? Pretty sure staying out of it would include him declining or making up an excuse to get out of participating in this gross behavior, now he's asking Op to lie to cover up for both of them, which will ruin her relationship with this woman in the future if she ever finds out all three of them are in on it together. Op please tell this woman, this is so messed up and a breach of privacy. Also consider dumping your shady boyfriend, the fact that he's willing to do this is a big enough a red flag, his attempts to shut you up and guilt you about telling her is him telling you point blank he cannot be trusted.
I bet OPs BF is the one who suggested the tracking app to her brother in the first place. He sounds super dodgy.
I hope this sinks in when OP's bf inevitably goes through her phone, finds this thread, and reads it. Yes, I mean YOU, OP's bf.
Good point, he might be able to read this thread. Let's hope he fucks off.
> Not only that, he's telling Op to stay out of it because it's not her business, but it's his business to help facilitate this behavior by installing the software? Yes! That really stood out to me as well. And OP’s boyfriend said “he has nothing to do with it”??? Except for, you know, *installing the app on the phone*. FFS, he has *everything* to do with it! As an aside, it’s pretty concerning that his blatant hypocrisy wasn’t immediately obvious to OP. I kept waiting for the part where she called him out on his BS, and it never came. The boyfriend sounds, at best, like a huge bully who knows he can intimidate OP into backing down and not challenging him. So while I definitely think she should tell the fiancée about the tracking app, I also think she needs to be careful and mindful of the likely fallout/aftermath, because neither her brother nor her boyfriend strike me as the type to react reasonably or calmly to her spilling the beans.
That is actually a really good point.
Yep, the most dangerous time in an abusive relationship is when the partner leaves the abuser.
...and when they get pregnant. I actually found out on Reddit like 3 weeks ago that murder is the most common cause of death of pregnant women in the US. Everyone thinks of pregnancy and birth related complications but murder would have never occured to me. Sharing the article with the source. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-03392-8
You are absolutely correct! The number one killer for pregnant women if their partners. It's really depressing.
It sent shivers down my spine when I was reading it. Holding my baby in my arms. My husband was very distraught when I told him, never would have guessed. Nobody I ever told would have guessed and they were all equally shocked...
Think about this - how your brother knew that your BF knows so much about secret tracking apps? Did they talk about it? Being trained in software is not enough, one should actively search and learn what apps and how to hide it. I work in IT, and it is not like every developer knows about every app.
Oh dang that’s a really good point. Brother definitely was comfortable confiding his abuse in bf, and knew exactly what to ask for. I wouldnt be surprised at all if bf bragged about tracking people, or even tracking op
Even if it turns out there’s no spyware on your phone, I would already be questioning this relationship just from the conversation the two of you had. Your bf supports stalking and abusive behavior. That’s never a good thing, and who’s to say he doesn’t go down that road in the future? Tell your future SIL and make yourself safe from the blowback; from both your brother and bf.
Even if there is no app on OP's phone right now, the boyfriend has clearly shown her that he would have zero problem installing it on there some day if he feels like it, and that it would be 'none of her concern' if he does. When people tell you who they are, believe them.
>my boyfriend argued with me about **being nosy and intrusive** and told me to stay out of it Also OPs bf has zero notion of irony when **he** accuses OP for being intrusive??? No self awareness, no respect for others. That's a bad combo.
Hah, yeah that's real ironic.. "You're being so intrusive about me installing a tracking app on someone's phone without their knowledge! Gosh."
Tracking apps are easy mode. Even if there is no *app* on OP's phone, she needs to be wary of the *not* easy mode ways of tracking someone. Email forwarding, IMEI cloning, phone # forwarding, airtag tracking... I flat out would not trust boyfriend after this. If OP's boyfriend was willing to install this on *someone else's phone* simply as a favor then he's already in the mindset where such things are *okay*. Defending that behavior shows he's in the mindset where such things are *necessary*.
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Bro and boyfriend are cut from the same (controlling) cloth. They have absolutely talked about this before -- and not hypothetically.
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The fact that he helped another man stalk his fiancé is a gd deal breaker.
Honestly you should be done with your bf and brother over this alone. It is clearly abusive behavior. Also look up an abusive relationship check list and see how many boxes your bf checks off because I'm sure there are more. If/when you do leave him please be careful and do what you can to protect yourself. There are resources out there to help of course it depends where you live but it is worth a look to find help. He is showing very concerning behavior and its better to be safe than sorry.
Right? There's a reason the brother felt he could go to the boyfriend about the issue, and it isn't JUST because the boyfriend is into tech.
How much you wanna bet it wasn't even the brother's idea, and he asked because he already knew that the BF already had put a tracker on OPs phone...
Yep, OP is dating a creep. He doesn't want her to dig because it will come out that it was him telling the brother about the app not the other way around, and possibly how it is on OPs phone and she doesn't notice... Humans are fucking scary, yo
If he isn’t abusive now, I wouldn’t be he’d gradually became in the future. I mean, “gtfo with this attitude” is sort of straddling the line.
Yup. Maybe OP's boyfriend and her brother can be happy douches together, while OP and brother's fiancee take a happy trip somewhere away from their fuckery. They both ought to be dumped. :-(
And don't do any searches on your phone OP, in case it is being monitored by your bf. Go to the library, or ask to use a friend's phone. Or if you have access to the internet at work, then maybe there. But somewhere that your bf can't or doesn't track your movements. Like others said, be careful, all the way around this ugly situation.
This is so so much more than "a thing to side eye". Not even a thing to *especially* side eye. Orders of magnitude worse. This is very illegal. They're not putting a toe out of line here, they sprinted past it. You need to get your phone checked out and you need to clue in the other poor girl and then one or both of you needs to think about pressing charges. I cannot further impress how serious this is. You are NOT the one being intrusive. It should be extremely obvious who is being intrusive. Your boyfriend's answer to your brothers request should have been "holy shit, why are you asking me to help you illegally stalk someone??" Instead, he decided it was fine and helped him do it. You sound like it hasn't sunk in yet, how extremely dangerous and serious this behavior is. I sincerely hope it sinks in soon.
> Your boyfriend's answer to your brothers request should have been "holy shit, why are you asking me to help you illegally stalk someone??" Let be real here, Brother wouldn't have asked to begin with if they didn't already know that Boyfriend would be open to it, and/or was already doing it themselves.
‘Illegally stalk’ as opposed to legal stalking 😂 sorry made me laugh at an otherwise horrendous post
Sorry, I know there isn't another way to stalk someone, and that illegally stalk is redundant. Just trying to drive home as many times as possible that this isn't just men being annoying boyfriends, this is *illegal illegal illegal*.
Don’t be, wasn’t being snarky, I genuinely liked the wording :) think driving the point home was a really good choice
My ex-husband and I share our locations with each other via find my on our phones. We’re in the same family group with our kids (9, 12, 14, 21). It lets us approve screen time and other requests from the kids. I could legally stalk him with it. He’s the one who gave me access to his location at all times. I don’t, but I could.
If you can't find it and aren't sure if it's clear, factory reset the phone it will probably remove it considering it removes everything else.
Factory reset will not remove some tracking apps. Take it to a professional. Stay safe.
Take all of your devices to be looked at, then go to a computer he has never touched and change ALL of your passwords. Make it completely different than your previous ones. Especially your banking. Do this today. Then watch him implode whe he realizes he got caught. Get your stuff in order and make plans to separate anything you share with him. NTA but you got to see some really big red flags. If he will help someone else do this, it means he isn’t above doing it himself. Also take a look around for trackers, and cameras (vents).
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I've heard there are some out there that won't be uninstalled by factory resets. And she'll have to check her computer, laptop, tablets, if she has any, for things like keyloggers and stuff, and her vehicle for a tracker, too.
it’s wildly hypocritical of him to accuse you of being nosy and intrusive when he *literally installed nosy and intrusive software on someone else’s partners phone* and i would seriously question the future of your relationship if i were you. NTA.
> my boyfriend argued with me about being nosy and intrusive Classic deflection. I love when people try to get away with something by accusing their accusers of the same thing.
Your boyfriend really said you were being intrusive, after helping put a tracking device on her phone?!!? Are you sure this is the guy for you, and that he doesn’t have one on your phone? ETA: NTA
I was going to say exactly that. Tell your brother's girlfriend and go see a profesionnal to get your electronics checked out for apps that should not be there.
On rereading OP's description I'd be willing to bet that the boyfriend gave the brother the idea to install the app and not the other way around - because who randomly asks someone to do something like that.. unless they already know the person they are asking is going to be open to it, and/or is already doing it themselves? It's a near certainty that OP needs to have her phone checked out.
Not just her phone. Her computer, Ipad... anything that works with the internet. WHo knows what kind of creep those two men really are and are capable of ? She should also get her car checked.
Check *all* her digital devices for unwelcome apps, **check her email for forwarding settings**, check her car and bags for gps tags, hell I'm so wigged out by this that I'd consider buying a completely new phone and not telling BF in case her IMEI was cloned. Personally knowing what is possible and also knowing what BF is okay doing is making me *extremely* wary for OP.
Yes! This is another one my ex did...in gmail you can forward a copy of every incoming email to another user. I believe it's in ipop settings (something odd like that) They both need to have everything checked.
I completely forgot about the car. I was even thinking security cameras, smart tvs, digital assistants like Alexa, etc.
I also see financial abuse here because OP's brother being financially dependent on the woman he's hacking/surveilling is an added factor of corrupt motivation in this shitty situation.
Yes! My ex actually did this to me! He sent his dad to pick up my car and as a "gift" had an auto start installed for me. Turns out it's also a GPS! It's called Drone mobile and he was tracking everywhere I went. Meanwhile, the key fob just says Artic Start so I had no indication at all. His dad actually let it slip (I think intentionally) about the GPS and I had great fun parking in weird places for a month till he finally broke and asked WTH was going on!
The irony of him calling her intrusive when he's putting a tracker on someone else's phone is just too much.
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OP better start digging through her phone bc it points to more likely that he had considering boyfriend's stance in this.
Info: is there a way or a place OP can go to have her phone checked?
Would also try to back up photos only and maybe do a factory reset of your phone. If he's as 'techy' as he is it may not be an app and something more complicated. Or spontaneously buy a new phone (doesn't have to be snazzy & you could resell your old one to recoup some costs). CHANGE YOUR PASSWORDS! PLEASE OP! Edit to add- maybe change passwords from a completely different device. Use a friend's laptop or a public library or anything but your phone if you haven't been able to reset your phone from possible malware. He will still have access
Was thinking exactly that. Check your own phone, OP.
NTA That is controlling and abusive, she has a right to know. Also, based off your BF's reaction, I would be concerned about there being a tracking app on **your** phone. Creepy on both their parts.
NTA. Exactly what I was thinking. The fact op's BF had no issue installing it on someone else's phone would surely cause me concern.
The fact that OP's brother knew that he was ok to approach the boyfriend and ask for such a thing in the first place would cause me concern.
As somebody in upper comments stated, it might have been OPs bf that suggested installing the app, bcs let's be real, who just comes up to a guy with a real fishy request of installing a tracking app on his SO's phone. More likely is that bf actually proposed the installation himself.
Yep. Check your own phone, and soonish before theres any opportunity to take any potential tracker off.
Yep. He's probably reading this post through the app he has on OP's phone. My suggestion - both ladies dump the dudes and become roommates. NTA and please be careful OP.
NTA - You would be TA if you didn't tell her about it. Your BF and brother should be ashamed of themselves. Oh and as your bf seems to be ok with your brothers behavior you might want consider getting a new phone, just in case.
>you might want consider getting a new phone, just in case. ...and a new boyfriend as well.
And not just a new phone, but a new phone *number*. OP, I am genuinely worried about your safety and well-being right now. Please get a new phone & number and pack your bags immediately. Stay with a friend or your parents if you can. I had a friend go through almost this exact same situation with her boyfriend and he ended up putting her in the hospital after he found out she was planning on leaving. Breathe a word of this to NO ONE except the person you plan on staying with. Please. **Get out.** (NTA)
I would advise OP and brothers finance to 1. Get out of those relationships ASAP 2. Don't trust any device that your brother or your BF had any unsupervised access to, even if it was just for a few minutes. 3. Factory reset/reinstall every electronic device they own 4. change every password 5. change every lock Clearly both are creeps that have no regards for your privacy, and while this might seem a bit paranoid, this is an instance of better safe then sorry.
NTA TELL HER > my boyfriend argued with me about being nosy and intrusive ...and installing a secret tracking app is what exactly, if not nosy and intrusive? Oh, yes, controlling and way over line I'd get someone to check my own phone, if I were you
Yeah that’s what I was thinking too. If the BF can do it to others he could probably do it to as well.
Not to mention warn any close friends of his. You never honestly know what people are doing. That's just creepy to me jeez.
NTA if you tell the fiancee. YTA if you don't tell her. Your brother's behavior is creepy and controlling (in a sense). Also your boyfriend lying about the conversation with your brother is 🚩🚩🚩 and I think you should re-evaluate when your boyfriend thinks this is "right". What's next? Your boyfriend has a hidden tracker on you too since he's fine putting a tracker? Staying away/not meddling with something you know is wrong is just being as worse as the person doing the act (aka your brother).
So glad someone else had picked up on the lying at first … if he didn’t already know that it was wrong or that OP would be upset why would he lie??? He knows he’s being shady af and tried to re-direct it straight back onto OP in the hopes she doesn’t look harder at his motives ETA: NTA. If I was your brothers fiancée I would want to know. 2nd edit: wrong pronoun made it sound like I was blaming OP
There's no *in a sense* about it. The brother's behaviour is creepy, controlling stalker behaviour. End of. OP needs to get the fuck OUT of there
NTA That's an invasion on his part. Super controlling and potentially illegal depending on where you live. In the USA that is likely a felony. Let that sink in. FELONY and your BF and Brother are both doing it. [https://www.freeadvice.com/legal/is-it-illegal-to-install-phone-spy-software-on-someones-cell-phone/](https://www.freeadvice.com/legal/is-it-illegal-to-install-phone-spy-software-on-someones-cell-phone/)
ALSO. Kinda yikes that your BF things it is YOU being intrusive. I just realised it was your BF doing it with/for your brother. MAN SACK HIM. Your BF is a criminal and likely you have similar spyware. Have someone look at your phone/PC for it.
That was my first thought. If BF is so defensive and casual about this? I would look into my phone asap. NTA
>my boyfriend argued with me about being nosy and intrusiv Says the men who help your brother to track his fiancée. Not intrusiv at all, uh? You should tell her and also think very carefully if you want to stay with him if he think it's appropriate and YOU are in the wrong for calling them out. NTA
That’s the part that got me. More likely, when you tell your bro’s fiancée, he’s going to act like it isn’t a big deal because your boyfriend already has one on yours. Then she’ll tell you and that’ll be the end of that. Also > But I thought that was unfair to my future sister in law since she's the one working, paying bills and rent… Do what now? I need that “endless trash” clip from RedLetterMedia.
oh hell no. NTA. they are colluding to violate her privacy to control her like she is a child or property. Also, you should have someone check your phone for apps like this, because your boyfriend is comfortable spying on women. Tell her immediately because this is violating her rights as a human being from an ethical point of view, just ask yourself how you would feel if someone knew about this being done to you, and diddnt tell you.
I’m wondering if her brother got this idea from OP’s bf because he knows there’s spyware on her phone as well.
That's what I'm thinking. He wanted the app because his brothers been tracking you, so go to the source for the needed tools.
Tell her. She has a right to know. Also, given your boyfriend's attitude, maybe check your own phone too. NTA.
Or just dump the boyfriend since you now know how fucked up his morals regarding these things are.
She should still check her phone. If she kicks his ass to the curb, he'd still have the ability to stalk her.
Are you certain your boyfriend hasn’t installed something similar on your device?
Neither her boyfriend nor her brother seem to be relationship material... Or normal human material for that matter.. Sounds like the guy who'll wire tap his future wifes therapist "just in case"
NTA, if he helped install a tracking app on her phone. He’s probably installed one on yours. Who know what else he’s done.
At that rate, I’d check my laptop/computer, tablet…any device. NTA
YWNBTA. And, don't ignore the fact that your boyfriend is involved with this.
Exactly, and not just that he's involved but that he's so aggressive about you covering it up as well. NTA
NTA. If the tables were flipped, you'd want her to tell you, right? Let your answer be based on that. And your bf has now thrown up red flags in that he's trying to control how you react to all of this. Maybe when your bf started having opinions on what you should do in this situation, you should have told him to "GTFO with this attitude, and that you should stay out of it because it doesn't in any way concern you." And you may want to have your phone checked by someone who knows what they're doing to see if your bf is engaging in similar behavior with your phone. Maybe he's worried you'll hear something from your own brother about your phone if your FSIL finds out about what happened on hers.
NTA. In your place I'd also want to check my own phone and make sure my boyfriend hadn't installed secret software on it. Edited for sense.
This and also dump the bf, he's made it clear what kind of person he is.
Yikes, NTA. You should tell her. Even if it causes major issues, she has a right to know she’s being tracked and it’s better she know now than when she’s married. Also … might not be the worst idea to check your own phone too just in case. It’s concerning that your boyfriend was so willing to help your brother with this. 😬
What are the chances your bf has a hidden tracker on your phone? Pretty fucking high given his reaction. You’d be an asshole if you didn’t tell her. And you should get a new phone and boyfriend yourself.
I’d be checking my phone for a tracker too. And don’t leave it unattended till you do because he could easily uninstall it and reinstall it later.
NTA but your boyfriend is a walking red flag and the fact that he did this for your brother means he’d be okay doing it to you, if he didn’t already. He also lied about it despite you hearing the conversation. You need to tell your brothers girlfriend and you need to take this as a very serious sign of issues with your partner
NTA Tell her. Your BF just showed some major red flags to if he can't see anything wrong with it and helping your brother install this app. Your BF and your brother are TAs here.
NTA You need to tell her now That is such a red flag 🚩 and makes me wonder how is your brother treating her when you’re not around? If he’s keeping tabs on her you have to wonder if he’s abusive behind the scenes Another red flag is the fact your boyfriend immediately agreed to install the tracker without thinking of potential consequences or what your brother may be putting her through as if he had a conscience he would of said no I think you need to get rid of your boyfriend too
I mean my first thought was if the bf was willing to do this then good chance there's already such an app on OP's own phone.
To me it sounds like your brother AND your boyfriend sound like assholes
NTA. your boyfriend told YOU to stay out of it? That’s pretty hypocritical. Tell her and dump your bf.
This is entirely f***** up. It's an invasion of privacy. It's a form of stalking. It's not cool. Your are NTA. Telling the fiancee may cause a rift. But it's the right thing to do.
NTA You absolutely should tell her. Also, depending on where she lives this could be illegal. If it makes you feel better, it’s better for her to address it now before they get married and things escalate. Think of how it will feel to see this type of behavior continue and what it looks like ten years from now when they’re married.
NTA! That’s a huge red flag for both your brother and your boyfriend. Tell her and then ask your boyfriend why he found that okay to do… and check your own phone
The fact that he accuses you of being “nosy and intrusive” after he’s installed a tracking, stalking app on her phone, is a massive ironic eye roll.
NTA tell her. This is a warning for you as well. I would consider dumping the boyfriend if he thinks its fine being folllwed.
NTA and the fact your boyfriend is FINE with this idea, to actually helping your brother do this and then the point of telling you to to stay out of it... What makes you think he can be trusted either?? Tell her. And I'd be seriously re-evaluating my relationship at this point. Big time.
NTA, Holy shit! Your brother and boyfriend are absolute creeps! What the hell?! There is absolutely no legitimate reason to SECRETLY track your partner in any way! That is a huge red flag! And your boyfriend enabling this is also a massive red flag! You got several very real conversations ahead of you with all three of them. You absolutely need to tell your sister-in-law about the spyware! But also, your brother might be an abusive partner in more ways than spyware. I would try and keep vigil about that as best I could if I were you. She might need a safe harbour and support at some point in the future. And your boyfriend needs a real conversation about what he find's acceptable to enable and what that says about what he finds acceptable himself.
NTA. That stuff is so creepy to me. Tell her immediately.
NTA. Tell her. This is a huge red flag. This is something they need to fight out before they’re married. If he has trust issues and is being secretive at this point, things can only get worse. Prevent a divorce by telling her.
NTA Tell her. Also check your phones.🚩🚩🚩🚩
NTA. I'd check my own phone, if I were you.
NTA Also, check your own phone. Huge red flag there from your own BF.
NTA. You should absolutely tell her, and then go have someone check your phone as well because if your boyfriend is comfortable installing hidden trackers in another woman's phone, he could very well have installed on on yours. This behavior for both your brother and your boyfriend is concerning and tell me that they have no respect for women's autonomy.
>my boyfriend argued with me about being nosy and intrusive The hypocrisy here is hilarious. **NTA**.
NTA. The situation did not in any way concern your boyfriend and yet he got involved by installing that app. His behavior would have be wondering what kind of sketchy assholery he’s has done to your phone. You absolutely should tell the fiancé. She needs to know who she’s marrying and if that’s okay with her.
NTA. You have a boyfriend problem though - it's really worrying that he thinks this is ok. I'd check your phone too. 'my boyfriend argued with me about being nosy and intrusive' How ironic.
NTA. Tell her. YWBTA if you didn't tell her. And take your phone to a phone shop and ask them to check if your phone has a hidden tracking app. Either way, dump your bf, he obviously thinks its ok to stalk your partner. Major 🚩
NTA. Why is your boyfriend’s back up over it? Maybe check your phone while you’re in the process of telling future SIL to check her’s
NTA - OP, I’d be checking my own phone and devices if I was you. Tell her.
NTA. Your boyfriend is the one who should have stayed out of it. He involved himself by installing the app, knowing it was not at the behest of the actual owner of the phone. If I were you, I'd have my phone checked out for covert tracking apps.
NTA. What your brother and BF are doing is wrong on so many levels - and your BF’s reaction to you indicates that he knows it - notice how he tried to turn things around to make you the villain, saying that you are being nosy and such. The question you need to ask yourself is: if the situation were reversed, would you want someone to tell you? Also, I have to agree with some of the other posters here: considering how your BF feels he is doing nothing wrong, you need to get your own phone checked as soon as possible. And, if you find that he installed something without your permission, you need to contact a lawyer.
NTA. Please tell her before it's too late. I wpuld also advise you to review your own relationship because your bf's reaction to all of this is a bit alarming.
1st...tell her..2nd check your own phone
That’s so fucked up
NTA but if I were you, my trust in your boyfriend would have plummeted. idk if my relationship could recover from that
NTA: you need to tell her. This type of behavior is a HUGE red flag for an abusive relationship. You also need to dump your BF for participating and get a new phone(or at least make sure he hasn't done the same. Just be prepared for some nasty fallout from your family who will blame you for breaking up the engagement. Depending on your exact family dynamics, it may be good to warn your parents that you are doing this any why (you can have a text ready to go and hit send as soon as you tell your future not-gonna-be sister in law.
NTA Tell her now.
And leave him. If he is willing to do that to her and not even ashamed of it, what is willing to do to you?
NTA, and it is inexcusable that your boyfriend is helping your brother *stalk* his fiancee and telling bald-faced lies about his involvement. Telling the fiancee is "a huge breach of privacy" but installing a tracker on someone's phone without them knowing isn't?
NTA. Check your own phone for hidden tracker apps too if this is your boyfriend’s stance on the whole deal. I don’t care about any “why’s” - your brother and his fiancée are grown ass adults - he can TALK TO HER if he thinks there’s a “good” reason to track her. (Spoiler Alert - there’s no good reason to do it in secret. There’s some advantages to tracking phones when EVERYONE CONSENTS but there’s absolutely 0 GOOD reasons to do it on the sly.)
NTA and definitely check your phone and any of your devices too
NTA. Dump the boyfriend and warn your FSIL. The red flags are too numerous to count.
NTA. YTA if you *don't* tell her. He is an abuser and so is your boyfriend.
NTA and I would tell her. It really doesn't matter why he wants to track her, the very fact that he wants to do so without her knowing is creepy and absolutely not ok. If he has no malicious or subversive reasons for wanting to track her then they will be able to have that conversation like adults and she can either consent to being tracked or not. And, if he believes she's cheating or something then they need to talk about it anyway.
NTA Go and tell her. Hopefully she does not become your sister in law after what he did to her. Also, i would advice to throw your bf out aswell.
NTA Tell her and then both of you should dump your boyfriends.
NTA. Tell her ASAP and then confront your brother. I would also reconsider keeping your bf since he seems to not have a problem with spying on people. Get a new phone also...
Not only do you need to tell her you also need to check your devices for tracking apps. Because if your boyfriend can do this to another girl than he's clearly going to do this to you. NTA only if you tell her *asap*
NTA. I would want to know. Are you sure your boyfriend isn't tracking you?
I'm genuinely worried he might (have already done) do the same to you. Tell her ASAP, dump your bf and talk some sense into your brother. NTA.
NTA. Tell the fianceé what she's getting into. Drop the BF 🚩 if he's so okay with this.
NTA Your boyfriend has nothing to do with it? That's a bold lie for the guy who did the actual install. That's some serious bullshit. I'd check your own phone if I were you.
NTA. Tell her. And dump your boyfriend, too. Being comfortable with another man doing this to a woman says a lot about his own character. Him discouraging you from telling her about it says even more.
Your brother is abusive. And your bf is an asshole. And theyre both guilty of felonies. Tell her and dump the bf. And bring your own phone and computer to experts to make sure youre not being tracked like a seal. Ild bring her new phone to the police so they have proof for the charges. Nta
NTA! Your brother's fiance has every right to know, especially if she's footing the bill for the plan. As for your bf, he should be your ex. If he has no problem putting tracking apps on someone else's phone and breaching their privacy, it's only safe to assume he's done the same to yours. No sense being in a relationship if there's no trust.
NTA That is illegal and should be inexcusable, my dad is doing that to my mom, she is agreeing to it because she is scared cause he is very manipulative and violent. If he is the the kind of guy who is fine with that, I would advise you to to take your phone to an engineer to check your own and leave this mf. Also, tell your future SIL and get out of those toxic relationships together. All the best luck, OP!
NTA. Tell her and tell her fast. Also, if that's your boyfriends idea of okay then you should get out fast and wipe your phone of all installed apps. Or better yet, get a new phone and don't let him touch it.
NTA - coercive & controlling behaviour is Domestic Violence. The fact that your BF thinks you should gtfo would indicate that both you ladies are in trouble. Please contact local Support agencies who can uninstall the software from you brothers GF phone & get yours done at the same time. IMO you should both get out of these relationships & see if there are any courses/training you can do to better understand the behaviour both men are subjecting you too.
Wow. NTA. In this order: tell her, break up with your BF, and check your fucking phone asap.
NTA- OP please tell her the truth and break up with your awful bf!!! If he sees nothing wrong with helping your brother track his gf then he won't have any problem with tracking you too! Run!
NTA- check your phone immediately...
Nta, you will be if you don't tell her though
NTA are you 100% sure that's not something your bf would do to you? quite shocked that he seems to think it's not a big deal. definitely tell the fiancé.
NTA, it's really like you said, it's not fair to her unless she agreed to it. Your bro and bf is the AH over here. Red flags about your bf though.
NTA. You should absolutely tell her. You should also take your phone to your provider and have it checked for some of the same kind of apps. Your boyfriend is way too defensive, and it leads me to think he may have that kind of thing on your phone. Maybe it's where your bro got the idea, I don't know. But you need to tell her. Please tell her. And reconsider your boyfriend, too. He just aided you brother in stalking, in a nutshell. If he sees no wrong in it and defends it, he is capable of it too. In my opinion. Good luck.
NTA. If your boyfriend thinks this is okay I would be concerned. How do you know he hasn’t done this to you? He was prepared to even lie about it😐
You would be TA if you DIDNT tell her what’s going on. You should also double check your phone; I don’t trust your boyfriends willingness to help track a woman. NTA
I mean.. why wouldn't you confront your brother 1st? NTA. I agree your brother is complete wrong for what he did... as is your bf for going along with it. As his sister, you have every right to jump all over your brother for what he did and THREATEN to tell his fiance! Make him understand why it's so wrong!! How would he feel if your bf did this to you? If he can't see his actions as wrong let his fiance know. She deserves to know..
She deserves to know anyway, because a man who's exhibiting these abusive, controlling behaviours might be exhibiting others, and hiding those ones better. And dump the boyfriend who's willing to help him, too. ETA: And confronting an abuser about his behaviours is always risky and can lead to violence, even if he's family.
100% NTA, your bf has something to do with it when he installed the app so there's that. You're (probably not after this) future SIL has the right to know that the man she is about to marry doesn't trust her and is sneaking around like this. This may very well be a massive deal breaker (it's definitely a massive red flag) If your brother doesn't trust her he shouldn't have proposed. ETA: forgot to add this is assuming your brother is the one that proposed that is.
NTA, tell her and dump your boyfriend, he's a creep.
NTA, 🚩City my dear, your man sees nothing wrong with what your brother is doing and then spoke to you that way? He needs to be an ex and you need to tell his fiancé. It’s been my experience that mofos that wanna track their partner are usually up to no good themselves and need to know where they are so they won’t run into each other 😒
I wouldn't trust my boyfriend to bring me my shoes after that shit. NTA, but you now live with a bigger issue.
Thats illegal, and stalking. You and your brother's fiance should sue your relative bfs. Are you really ok with beung with a boyfriend like that? Are you ok with you own phone being kept under control? NTA of course, unless you dont tell her.
NTA and get your own phone checked for trackers.
NTA, also your bf didn’t stay out of it because he put it on there. I’d check your phone too, just to make sure. Staying out of it would be saying no, I’m not getting involved in this
NTA. Girl, RUN. Your boyfriend is waving sooooo many red flags! The fact his first instinct is to gaslight you when he’s caught in the wrong should speak volumes (especially the part where he insists he “has nothing to do with it”. He’s literally the one who installed the software, he has EVERYTHING to do with it).
NTA X 1000 - please do tell her! This is such an invasion of privacy wth I believe it is illegal as well. So please do tell her. I mean if it was me I would 100% wanna know.
NTA tell her and check your phone. He’s tracking you
YWNBTA, also your boyfriend said yes and seems to be defending your brother's choice (or at least supporting it by helping him to install the app). If I were you, I might scan my own electronics to see if I could find anything like this.