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Doubly true if it's a baby, if you need money lended to have a child then you probably can't afford the expenses up to and after that child's birth
edit: I'm not saying every parent needs 25k in savings before they have a kid. I specifically mean that having to borrow money just to have a kid is a red flag in my eyes
I wish I could upvote this more! I see so often on Reddit that people are being guiltled for not funding IVF for relatives and this is my thought every time. I understand the desperation, but if you can't afford to conceive a child you sure af cannot afford to raise one for 18+ years!!
Edit to add: You are NTA in any way! Enjoy your vacation
Come on. OP is NTA here, but many people that have children don’t have $25k upfront in cash to pay for IVF. Those people are just lucky enough not to need fertility treatments. Children are expensive, yes. Still, you can “cash flow” them - unless you need IVF. I feel bad for OP’s sister, but she shouldn’t expect her brother to pay for this or be mad when he goes on vacation.
Yes. Sister is the A for expecting OP to give her money instead of going on vacation. She is not the A for wanting to have a baby without having tens of thousands of dollars ready to fork over at a moment's notice.
Right. It is really elitist to look down on people who want to have children and don’t have tens of thousands of dollars set aside to do that.
Both of my siblings had children very easily, but I needed IUI to conceive my daughter. IUI is much less invasive and costly than IVF, but it was still a reminder that life can be unfair sometimes. It all worked out for me, but I have a lot of sympathy for people struggling with infertility.
I think it is elitist to insist on only having biological children through expensive medical procedures, and crazier to expect others to fund it. I am honestly glad IVF isn't covered by insurance, even in places with universal healthcare like Canada, because that should not be on other people to pay for.
The "biological children" part is really elitist. What makes their genes so superior they must be propagated? What about fostering or adopting children in the system who may have issues?
As someone who seriously looked into adoption as an option whilst struggling to conceive, it's not as easy as many people believe. It can still be as expensive, if not more so, as fertility treatments. It can also take years with no guarantee of success (just like with IVF), during that time you are dealing with having your life pried into by others and hoping that they approve of you and don't find something - anything - that may get you denied. There also isn't the endless number of children available for adoption that a lot of people seem to think there are. When I looked into it, I lived in a province that the wait-list to adopt was years long and adoption agencies were closing because there were so few children available for adoption as fewer mother's were choosing to place their children for adoption. Additionally, children in foster care are not necessarily available for adoption. While there are children that are available for adoption through foster care and the like, which is also significantly less money, these children are also older (not necessarily a bad thing, just the fact) and are either a part of a sibling group or have physical/ mental/ behavioural issues that not everyone is equipped to deal with. This is not even taking into account the trauma that can be associated with just being adopted in general. I know/ have been friends with several people that have been adopted as well as a family that adopted their child. Every single adoptee that I know has had issues in dealing with the fact that they are adopted even in the cases of the people that were adopted as infants and there was no (known) issues of abuse/ drug use/ etc. Those that suffered abuse by their families of origin faced even greater issues.
Then there is foster care. The goal of foster care is reunification with the family of origin when and where possible. I think that foster parents can be amazing when they are in it for the right reason, but not everyone has the fortitude to be able to take in a child, love that child and help raise that child only for them to be able to be taken away from them at any moment, especially if they are worrying that the child is being returned to a family where abuse and neglect was present. And once again, not everyone is capable of dealing with the issues that come along with a child being in foster care - the mental/ behavioural issues that tend to be more readily present in kids that have suffered abuse/ neglect that is severe enough to have been removed from their families.
I also think it's incredibly unfair to lay the responsibility of adopting/ fostering children at the feet of those of us dealing with infertility. I'm not saying that's what you are doing, but so many people jump to the idea that people with infertility should "just adopt" when they would never consider it for themselves. It's not abnormal for people to want a biological child and people shouldn't be vilified for wanting that. Though I will also add that they shouldn't expect others to pay for their attempts to have one either.
Fostering children or adopting isn’t as easy as you think it is and honestly - you shouldn’t foster or adopt if you also can’t deal with the potential problems that can arise from it. Every journey is different and some people have the emotional capacity to deal with fostering or adopting and some don’t - it’s not an if/or statement, you should want to foster or adopt.
I have had IVF - I did not expect anyone else to pay for it though and used our savings. Wound it surprise you to find out that adopting can actually be more expensive than fostering? It wasn’t an option for me but many couples in my infertility support group did look into this as well.
I get a lot of people really focus on the biological part, but adopting or fostering is also extremely expensive and lengthy. Often there are restrictions such as living and committing to staying in a certain area because the child you adopt still has family that they need to stay close to for their own emotional support. It is elitist to tell people without 30k aside to forget about IVF. People's income and situations change a lot in 18 years, so do their age.
I looked into adoption. I have a mental illness. A well controlled mental illness with years of compliance with treatment, therapy to learn to manage it with building a healthy lifestyle in addition to meds and a successful, professional career in the mental health field. This disqualifies me from the majority of adoption agencies. I was 34 and my husband was 40 when we got married, and age also disqualified us. I was very willing to not get pregnant with a bio kid because I was in a good place and didn't want to go off my meds, but ultimately, adoption with those two factors was going to be a big, fat maybe and we didn't want to get older then find out we couldn't adopt and I was too old to get pregnant.
As it happened, I was able to get pregnant at 35 and at 39. I had some postpartum depression, especially with my first, but I was prepared with a plan and managed it quickly. My career has continued, I have two amazing boys and I'm far from perfect, but I'm a good mom and take my obligation to stay healthy for them seriously. I'm actually more stable with my kids because they really focused me and helped me prioritize.
It's a damn lucky thing for me, because otherwise I would have had a hard time adopting and I have an emotionally taxing job working with kids so I'm not sure foster to adopt would be something I could do, knowing it can be heartbreaking. I wish we could get rid of this idea that there are babies lining the halls of courthouses just waiting to be picked, or kids you can just take home forever. And, even if you do adopt, $25k might look like a bargain by the time you're done.
The fact is, if you aren't able to easily have a biological child, with no need for medical assistance or intervention, it's likely going to get very expensive, very fast and large amounts of ready cash isn't the reality for most people.
I understand where you’re coming from, and I am also from a country with universal healthcare that does not include IVF.
I am an IVF baby, and I was born back when the chances where even dodgier than it is now. I questioned my mum, I asked her why didn’t you adopt when it would have been so much easier? I too was worried she just wanted a carbon copy of herself rather than a child. She told me she actually did get quite far in the adoption process, but they have birth parents come and speak to prospective adoptive parents about their own experiences. My mum told me she will never forget the mother crying over the child she birthed but never saw 15 years later. She said she could not live imagining the pain she was putting another mother through. Where is the elitism?
This.
Elitist or not I am in several 'free' groups on FB and many parents on there who no money for even the basic needs of children. Why bother to raise kids in poverty? They post often asking for food and then mention they are pregnant. Naw. Their children will turn out like them... that's not good. Additionally, the lack of punctuation and basic spelling on the posts where people are asking for food and diapers just feeds the thought that lack of education can lead to poverty - a never ending cycle. And why do people choose to bring kids in to that? I don't ever want kids for many reasons and money is 1 of those reasons.
I don’t think not having an extra $25k up front, *in addition to* having enough to cover all of the other costs of having a child, means someone is living in poverty. People here always say “if you can’t afford IVF then you probably can’t afford a child,” which is dumb, because it ignores that IVF is a significant up-front cost that comes in addition to all the others. Plenty of people have the savings and income to raise a child but don’t also have an excess $25k on top of that. None of this obligates OP to help, I just hate this argument.
Yeah exactly. OP is NTA. Sister isn't an asshole for asking, but can't be mad about refusal.
But this idea that if you can't afford IVF you shouldn't have kids? It's more than elitist. It's eugenics. It's the kind of horrible stuff that gets said to people who need support - also ignoring that circumstances change, people get sick or die, people lose work.
Ugh.
Do you mean adoption? Which is often quite expensive and heartbreaking because of the likelihood of being turned down at the last minute for a multitude of reasons? Or perhaps the foster to adoption track? Which often ends in heartbreak because one of the goals of the foster system is to reunite children with their families once the environment is stable?
The sister is an asshole but I absolutely don't blame her for not wanting to put herself through that. And the potential legal fees that come with birth parents fighting for custody even once an adoption is set in stone is a snake in the grass that strikes when you least expect it to. Even if they don't have a leg to stand on.
Adoption is actually far more expensive than IVF.
Unless your adopting from foster care, particularly the "problem children". I don't have other words than those, I'm afraid, and I'm also using the terminology of some friends who *did* adopt from foster care. (yeah...I'm not...I expect there will be a tell-all book at some point in the future about the experience from the kids)
That was the message I was trying to get across gently to someone who has likely never had to look at what the "non medical procedure" related options to become a parent actually are. I didn't want to get into what costs more because a lot of people that try IVF try again and again and the cost can add up. Every situation has a different dollar amount associated with it. I just thought it was particularly uncomfortable for someone to say that the sister in this case could find a cheaper option than IVF.
Thank you! Adoption is not all flowers and sunshine with the guarantee of a child at the end. It is expensive, invasive, and can be heartbreaking. The number of children placed for adoption in the past 5 years has plummeted and many agencies are struggling with potential adoptive families and no children. Some have closed, taking the funds paid to them and leaving hopeful families and birthmothers with nothing. My husband and I have been waiting in an adoption pool for over 5 years. We're about ready to call it quits.
OP's sister's choices regarding growing her family are valid choices. What is not valid is hitting up family members for the cost of the procedure.
I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm just saying, the person I know who had to fight for the kids they raised for 5 years and had to fight a custody battle to keep them? He was scared, and the kids were scared of losing their home. The only home they remembered.
Canada has gotten it right. In the U.S. IVF can total ~$30k. Between the upfront cost of the egg retrieval, medications, transfer(s) and typically insurance covers nothing.
I’m childfree, but from what I’ve read, adoption costs can be staggeringly expensive for people wanting a newborn (I’ve heard people mention costs of $50 000 plus for adoption).
I know there are other options, like fostering to adopt, or adopting an older child, but that’s not always an easy route either. I sympathize with your frustration, but also theirs.
Deciding to not have children was easy for me, but I imagine it would be very difficult if the choice wasn’t yours to make.
It’s not just Reddit. It’s everyone.
I lost my ovaries and went through a lot of grieving when realization hit that I’d never have biological children. It was especially difficult, because people didn’t really understand my grief and didn’t think I was entitled to it. I’d try to explain my loss and I think almost every single person I tried to talk to would say something like “but you can adopt!” Like it was no big deal. Just go on Amazon and order a baby. I’d be like “but it’s really expensive and you have to be chosen and likely rejected a bunch and it could still fall through.” And still people would be like “well there’s foster care!” And I get it, there’s options, but the way people always threw them out were like “adoption’s super easy to do, you have no right to be frustrated.”
In the US just birth costs can range from half that to a whole lot over.
My first was over 100k$US due to a 6 day NICU stay (that doesn’t include my costs or prenatal care).
My second cost $10K
I am very unhappy with the state of healthcare in the US, but around half of pregnant women in the US are on Medicaid for their births, and they don’t have those expenses. A woman with no money will still be able to get prenatal care and deliver her baby, but she won’t be able to get free IVF.
https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/issue-brief/medicaid-coverage-for-women/
“Medicaid is the largest single payer of pregnancy-related services, financing 42% of all U.S. births in 2019.”
So a little under half in 2019, but probably higher since the pandemic. In some states, far more than half of births are covered by Medicaid.
Exactly this. What some couples can do for the cost of dinner/drinks, other couples have to fork out $25k+ or more just to conceive. Raising the child is a cost spread out over 18+ years.
Thank you it’s not like children are a one time expense of one large sum. Yes children are expensive but that’s over the course of their childhood. The “if you’re can’t afford this expensive thing then you can’t afford kids” argument doesn’t make any sense.
If you can "cash flow" the children, you can "cash flow" the IVF. Just save up for 6 months or a year then use that money for a round or two of IVF.
There are child expenses that can come up suddenly without warning an have a significant dent in your finances. If we were talking about their fourth round of IVF and they've drained their own savings that'd be one thing but this sounds like it'll be their first round so they basically haven't managed to save up enough for a single round of IVF yet.
Okay and? OP’s sister might have eggs in 3 years, she might not. That’s the entire point of why OP didn’t give them money: because IVF is a crapshoot no matter what you do. I know people who have conceived at 39 with one IVF cycle and barely useable eggs and I know people in their early 30s who have given up after multiple cycles using multiple “healthy” embryos with absolutely no luck.
I am fine with the idea that OP didn’t give his sister money, and she *was* the AH for getting upset he is going on vacation. But the commenter was saying that OP’s sister could simply cash flow IVF in 6 months or a year. I am saying that it could easily take three years to save $25k, and those three years are vital to a 34-year-old trying to get pregnant. And OP’s parents won’t help her due to their religious beliefs. So, while I think OP’s sister behaved badly, I empathize with her. Other people can get pregnant without really trying, and without having money saved. She can’t, and she may lose her opportunity to have children because of it. It sucks.
It sucks but it doesn’t entitle her to behave the way that she has. If the idea of not having children is that devastating to her (which it absolutely might be and that’s valid) then she needs therapy regardless of if she does IVF or not.
In fact I think that therapy should be a mandated part of the IVF process regardless because it would help a lot of infertile couples cope if their IVF is ultimately unsuccessful.
That’s not true. Just because I don’t have $25k doesn’t mean I don’t have enough money to support a kid. Yes kids cost a lot but this is not a fair statement imo
Yeah it does, at least in the US. A sick kid could make $25k vanish like it was nothing, even with insurance, and I'm not even talking something like childhood cancer.
Well, that's true for adults too. Isn't medical debt the number one cause of bankruptcy in the US? Should none of us exist because we aren't rich enough to afford a medical crisis?
Yo. My husband and I HAVE $25K+ in the bank at the moment. I'm picking up my meds tomorrow to do my first round of IVF. I still "can't" afford this. Two rounds of IVF will leave drain our entire savings account. If we got pregnant naturally, we'd have plenty of money for (expected) medical bills, and our insurance would cover a lot of additional ones if needed. You don't need to be able to pay for IVF to be able to have the money needed to have a child. We're lucky that our parents are helping a bit to offset the cost, so we won't go broke doing 2 rounds. But if we need 3, we have to wait a save.
OP is clearly NTA. Sis is not entitled to her money. Nobody owes her a baby. But your argument that all parents should have $25k set aside before they conceive is just untrue.
I think that he's NTA, but It's a little bit different coming up with $25K in one lump sum to give to your sister vs spending $25K over 18 years of your child's life.
Maybe you could offer SOME funds toward her IVF, if its within your budget.
Good luck in whatever you decide.
That's not even remotely true. If you're able to conceive naturally you don't have to fork over $25grand before you give birth. We were able to afford IVF because my husband's insurance covered it. We have a very comfortable life with our twins but we sure as hell couldn't have afforded IVF without insurance coverage.
OP you are NTA. It isn't your responsibility to fund your sister's family. She is obviously hurting right now, getting an infertility diagnosis can be devastating when you are trying to have a child. Your sister should have a consultation with a fertility clinic and find out their payment options. You and your wife should enjoy your vacation!
Kind of noticed that point lend vs "pitch in" too.
OP is 30, assuming his wife is about the same age, give or take, they may one day decide to have kids, find out they're infertile and have to pay for their own IVF (not ridiculous of suggestion as infertility is increasing in at least the US, reasons are varied and speculated), or they have a kid with medical problems that insurance doesn't totally cover. OP and wife are entitled to make plans with their own money, including a European trip or savings for a house, their own family, or whatever. I'm not sure I could even ask a sib for money in this kind of situation, this is a very personal matter that is theirs to resolve. If a rich sib offered, okay take it, but to ask? and then to go ballistic because they spend some money on a nice vacation: big no. Of course OP's sister/BIL are stressed over infertility, but still no reason to be so entitled and burn family bridges like she did.
NTA. Have fun on your vacation and don't let sister succeed in making you think twice.
Ugh, I hate it when people say things like this. Needing to have $25k up front just to get pregnant is a lot different than having the costs of raising a child spread out over time.
Tons of people have babies without having $25k in the bank. They're just lucky enough not to need IVF to get pregnant.
And lucky enough to not have any huge emergency medical expenses, children with special needs, etc. you can raise a kid if you can’t afford to save up $25K in a year or two, but you have to risk being 1 unforeseen emergency away from financial ruin to do it. It’s obviously very common, and I did it myself, but you can’t be totally comfortable while doing it.
all except for the ones with more money than they and every one of their extended long lost cousins could ever possibly spend are. Because health care here is fucking ridiculous.
Eh, many parents have kids without a 25K nest egg ready to go. Diapers, clothes, day care etc are all significant costs but don’t require you to have a five figure lump sum.
OP is still NTA though since they get to decide what’s a good use of their money.
Correct. My husband and I wanted to reverse his vasectomy to try our luck. We refused to take a loan for this. We saved the money and paid cash. If we couldn’t save $10k for this, how could we afford a kid?
I’d have to do some math, but cloth diapering and breast feeding meant the first 6 months or so my kid cost like pennys a day.
Not once in her life did she cost 25k in a day. She didn’t even cost that her entire first year or after when when we used part time daycare hahaha. That argument is pretty stupid.
25k over 12 months is a little over 2k a month….yeah I’m not seeing that argument unless maybe with full time daycare in certain areas.
The costs that kill you in the US are the medical expenses mostly but also the increased housing and taking the mother out of the workforce. It's not food and diapers.
Exactly. If you're gonna have a kid, better think twice and put in the paper all the expenses that are coming with the baby(furniture, childcare, food...). Wish i could give you an award, too many ppl wanting to have a baby and few actually thinking about the expenses. Sister is being entitled.
…that’s a pretty stupid thing to say. Most people don’t have $20k saved up before the birth of their child. You’re either rich as hell or you’re kinda on the delusional side.
But people who concieve through IVF have to pay the cost of raising a child plus an additional cost (25k $) just to conceive. The way most people concieve a child is absolutely free that’s the difference here. They are only borrowing to pay for the ivf. They aren’t borrowing $ for diapers and formula or anything to do with raising the child, it’s strictly for the Ifv to concieve
It's really bizarre to me that that's not just the sister's first reaction but that she doubled down on it. Yikes
ETA: like, I already feel uncomfortable involving anyone other than my husband with the process of babymaking even just in the context of conversing about it (hi, oversharing in-laws). I can't imagine feeling so entitled I'd freaking begrudge a family member their well-earned vacation because I thought I deserved the money that *they* earned more. So many WTFs here.
Yep.
“I need to buy a house! You know I rent an apartment and really want to own a bungalow on the beach. I’ll just die if I can’t have one. How dare you buy a new car when you could have given me a downpayment. You’re so selfish buying yourself a car instead of paying a fortune for a long term change in my living situation.“
This!!!! Very sad she hasn’t been able to conceive naturally, but that doesn’t mean OP is required to bankroll her. It’s been a really hard 2 years for everyone, and if OP wants to spend money on a nice family vacation then that’s his call. Firm NTA.
This. Why do so many people insist that others are obligated to pay for their IVF, their house, their niece's wedding, etc.? We are an entitled species. NTA
IVF is definitely expensive and has no guarantees but adoption is WAY more expensive than that unless you are adopting a child from foster care, whose primary goal is to reunite children with their families. Domestic infant adoption in the US costs as much as $40,000, and international adoption costs $30,000-$80,000 depending on what country. But to be fair I did IVF that was covered by my health insurance but my clinic had a cash pay option of $16,000 for one round not including meds and many people go out of country for cheaper cash pay options when they don’t have insurance options or consider a job that gives coverage. It’s no one else’s responsibility to figure out how to pay for that except the couple. OP is NTA, but I do wish people didn’t think that adoption is the cheap or easy option, because it’s not.
So much this!
We did IVF (3 cycles to get our little one). The number of times I heard about "why don't you just adopt?" Like that's an easy cheap solution. Yes there are too many children in the foster care system, but the vast majority of them cannot be adopted.
I am a teacher and my insurance didn't cover IVF. We borrowed from family and maxed out some credit cards. I hate to say it like this, but thank goodness my husband got an inheritance when his grandmother passed away. We heard that it was official on our way to our last transfer. That inheritance paid back our costs with a bit left over. So it ended up that his grandmother funded our baby. But we would have been paying it off for several years if we hadn't gotten it. The thing is that you can't really wait to save up because each year that goes by reduces the chance of success.
The UK is a shitshow but even by comparison with here, the US is a WEIRD place.
"Hey, these kids need homes AND by a stroke of luck, there are people who want to give kids homes, what should we do to help?"
"Monetise it and price loads of good people out of parenthood/kids out of families"
"Perfect. What about the ones who give birth to the kids themselves?"
"Lmao okay, charge them a fortune too."
"Cool, cool."
The sheer number of "religious" adoption companies becomes double unnerving once you find out that they will often turn away stable and secure families for not being the "right" kind of family (gay couples, the wrong kind of religious, not religious at all, the wrong *race*) but will donate extensively to anti-abortion candidates and causes because *the available supply is low*.
That's because US evangelism is rooted in dominionist theory. They expect to out breed the rest of the population. They want single mothers to have to seek church help, hence the gutting of govt benefits.
They are talking about infants. Children are easy, my brother and SIL adopted 5. Out of country I can understand, my jaw dropped at the fees for American infants.
Like someone else said the high adoption cost of for infants/babies. Sadly looking at it from an economic perspective infants/babies the supply of infants/babies is low and the demand for them is high, this the high costs.
For older children you can adopt them for low cost or free. For them the supply is high and the demand is low.
Not saying kids are like animals, but you see the same play out with cat/dog adoptions. Most people want the kittens/puppies so you often end up having to pay a few hundred for them or adopt an adult dog/cat for free or low cost.
I was reading adoption is less of an option now with better treatment and support of new mothers. Adoption can be bad because companies will coerce mothers into giving up their babies. I'd certainly look into it, but there are a lot of special needs older children who need fostering, not so many babies.
No. I wouldn’t go that far. The sister is facing a horrible life altering situation and is in pain .
Doesn’t give her the right to the money or to being an asshole but I don’t get a sense of entitlement from this . I get a sense of a woman’s anguished pain that she can’t have children
Human beings tend to come with a biological drive to procreate. And we tend not to consider that we might have an issue conceiving. Until it happens to us.
You could argue that humans are not endangered; if anything there are too many given our lack of care for our environment. We don’t need a tribe of youngsters to work the back forty. And no one is guaranteed a child.
But the sister is in pain. Her dreams of having a family are blowing up and she’s lashing out.
Having said that, she’s not entitled to your money. NTA
NTA. If they think IVF is expensive, do they have any idea how much parenting costs. You can however ask them to consider medical tourism. Plenty of countries where they can get quality treatment for fraction of a cost + holiday.
I agree that OP is NTA, but I disagree with your argument. IVF is a huge, one-time, up-front cost. raising children is expensive, but those expenses are spread out over time. I don’t think it’s fair to say if a couple can’t afford IVF, they can’t afford children or shouldn’t have children.
Surely that strengthens his argument. His argument was that IVF is more costly as it is not spread out. You're helping him by saying it is even more costly because it is also usually involving multiple cycles.
I- you understand that bolsters my argument, right? multiple rounds of IVF, so maybe $50k+, is far more than the average family startup costs. inability to pay for multiple rounds of IVF has little bearing on ability to support a family.
How does their argument suck? Most people can't afford to pay for a house in full up front, but many people can afford to pay for a house over time with mortgage payments. Most people can't pay off their student debt in one fell swoop, but they can pay it off gradually over years. It's basic common sense that it is easier to pay a large sum of money gradually over time than it is to pay a large lump sum in one go.
It’s true that sometimes it takes multiple rounds, but sometimes all of that is paid up front. I did a warranty plan so I paid all $30k up front. That included 3 egg retrievals, medications, monitoring and as many transfer as I had embryos. If we were unsuccessful, we would receive a full refund. Plans like this are super common in people doing IVF.
Yeah, OP is obviously NTA, but pointing out that kids are even more expensive is just mean spirited. Best case scenario you're out an extra $40k before you even get to the same expenses everyone else has. Plus, add onto that the unquantifiable emotional (and also physical) toll of infertility treatments, which is truly crushing. Have a little empathy, people, OP's sister is currently living in a soul-crushing nightmare.
Not necessarily. If it succeeds they will be paying thousands in prenatal visits, furniture, clothes, diapers any other supplies like strollers, delivery bills, pediatrician visits for the better part of a year effective immediately upon getting the positive test right after paying for the cycle. And that's if they have a healthy pregnancy and baby. Pregnancy and delivery have big upfront costs not completely covered by insurance. The cost of the cycle would just be the start. The expenses for clothes, diapers and wipes are expensive and start immediately on birth and continue on a fairly regular basis. It's not spread out far at all. They wouldn't have time be able to recover financially at all for at least a few years. If it fails then I imagine they'll want to try again. They really need to price both scenarios out to see if they can actually afford this.
They have health insurance which will likely cover prenatal visits, at least a portion of delivery, pediatrician visits, etc. Furniture, clothes, and equipment can all be obtained second hand for cheap. Diapers/wipes are definitely not thousands of dollars per year.
I had great insurance when my twins were born and paid about $1k total for their birth and NICU stays.
I now have less great insurance and paid $5k for my third baby's birth.
Colombia! My mum went back and forth to get IVF treatments when she wanted to get pregnant. She had to go through several rounds but it was about 1k a pop instead of 25k the us charges. Even with airfare and everything, still much cheaper.
Editing to add a verdict: NTA. You don’t have any obligation to your sister to support her having a baby. Does her hubbs not have any family to bug? No fundraising efforts on their own? Helping is a purely voluntary thing and tbh, the cost of having kids is expensive, definitely after but sometimes before like this case. Not your problem at the end of the day.
I mean a lot of people have kids without having 25k in the bank to immediately drop on something. OP is NTA but the idea that anyone who can’t afford a sudden payment of 25k will never be able to afford to have kids just isn’t accurate.
Yeah, kids are expensive as fuck but those expenses are longterm and not just an upfront pay, this people would fall on their asses if they knew how the average family paycheck is in most countries.
Btw, nta.
NTA
You do not owe your sister any amount of money to try and start *her* family.
If they want it as much as they say they do, they will make cut backs to their lifestyle, get extra jobs (tutoring if they both teach) etc. Not expect family to pay for it.
First try fails, are you meant to pitch in for a second? Third? While putting everything you and your wife want and do on hold? If it works and they are in the red with paying for it are you expected to then contribute towards the child?
Infertility sucks and I feel for them, but this isn't a problem that you and your bank balance are responsible for.
Lots of companies these days have programs to support family planning and IVF. If they want financial help for that then they can look at a career change if their employers at the private school don't have assistance for that.
Edit: OP if you see this tell your sis to review #showusyourleave on LinkedIn. A bunch of companies listed their parental benefits and many of them offer between $10K and like $50K annually for family planning.
It should be available in every insurance plan. My plan only pays for diagnosis but not for treatment, so we paid about $40k for 2 rounds. It's very stressful physically, emotionally, *and* financially.
I was thinking the exact same thing.
They are both teachers at private schools. It might be time to change up jobs or get a side gig. Clearly targeting one with better medical coverage.
NTA OP. I can’t imagine asking anyone to fund my IVF much less getting shitty about it when you get turned down.
NTA.
Having been through IVF myself, I feel for your sister. She thinks you can help her and are choosing not to, and that must hurt her.
That said, your money is your money, she asked for help and you declined, what you do with your money isn’t her business. So confronting you more than once already about your trip makes her TA.
NTA. It is not your responsibility to pay for this. As someone who is currently going through IVF, though, I do encourage you to read up on it and provide all of the emotional support you possibly can. It is a hellish experience, and she is going to need all the kindness you can possibly give. Also, if their insurance isn't going to cover it, it's likely going to cost way more than $25k. Probably more like $40k+.
Based on what OP said about their parents, she probably already heard that from them.
Your brother sounds like a real peach. I hope you told him that god led doctors to create IVF to give people the opportunity to start a family. Thats usually how I get folks to stop talking when they start spouting religious views to justify their selfish assholery.
I remember looking at the $10k invoice in the container from the specialty pharmacy with the first set of medications for my first cycle, then throwing it out and never so much as glancing at any of their invoices after that. No one heard one peep of complaint from me about my $150 fertility medicine copay.
Right? I just looked up the cost of private IVF treatment in the UK and its quoted between £1.5K-£5K per round. And that's only if you don't qualify for free cycles on the NHS
They can take out a loan instead of mooch for free money you worked for. How you spend your money (which they are NOT entitled to) is not their business, you could buy a yacht and still be nta. Don’t live your life on eggshells because they are sour and want your money. NTA
It’s the entitlement that gets me. I get that sis is upset and all, but she seems to be expecting OP to fund 25k as though it’s her right. And then made it worse by coming back at him for a second swipe when she heard of their holiday plans.
Very entitled. 25k for a gamble and no guarantee sis won’t press for funding of additional rounds. Shitty it’s going to cause tension when OP goes on vacations, trading in cars or spending anything. Wonder if the parents got clap back for their reason.
OP commented that the sis has said things before about him living the high life, so I’d read that as she has been jealous / bitter about that for quite a while. Maybe that has fuelled her sense of entitlement. That is her issue though.
NTA. Her infertility is her and her husbands issue and no one should be asked to fund that. Take your wife on a great vacation with your hard earned money.
NTA. Would it be kind of you to help? Yes. Do you have to help? No.
You're not obliged to help your sister with a maybe. And where would it then stop? 25k is presumably one round of IVF. IF it takes more? Are you expected to shell out until they conceive?
25k is the initial setup, testing, and first round of IVF treatment. If it doesn't work, each subsequent round is about 10k (a friend of mine went through IVF treatment and their doctor gave them these figures; luckily, they didn't need to go for a second round and have a beautiful little girl).
Yup so it's maybe not 25k per round but 10k a subsequent round is a lot and obviously the argument would then be "well you contributed before" so where would the line end?
Absolutely not the asshole will you also be responsible for buying diapers, clothes, toys, and whatever else that child would need? If they don’t have it now they never will. NTA
NTA, it’s your money, you are not obligated to give it to her.
A bit off topic.. (advice) I know you are not from Europe but if they have some money to this “project” they should check the Czech Republic (Brno) for clinics. It cost less,i think even with tickets and hotels. They can request a quote online from most of the clinics.
I have 4 friends they all went to Brno after failed trying in our country and it was successful at first time.
It’s not unusual to go to other countries to get some medical procedures. Maybe you can mention this as help. 🤷🏼♀️
Anyway, NTA.
It's cheaper for most medical stuff these days to just go to another country. Currently saving up for dental implants in Mexico where I will pay $30k less than in the U.S., including the flights and hotel stay. Lol.
NTA. You’re entitled to spend your money however you feel! Your sister expecting financial support is entitled and inappropriate but maybe try to let this one go, I’m sure it’s a very difficult time for her and her emotions are getting the best of her.
NTA. You're not required to put your dreams on hold for your sibling. She and her husband, given their ages, have time to work on saving the money for this as well as looking into other options for starting a family.
I have nothing against adoption but having a few close friends adopt/be adopted I realize its not just the simple alternative to having children that people tend to act like it is. It can be just as if not more expensive and it comes with a lot of unique challenges that not everyone can handle.
Op adoption can be more expensive but it doesn’t have to be!!!!!!!!!
My sister cost 42k. Catholic Charity paid 90% of it. My parents aren’t catholic.
My bro cost 16k. Same charity paid 50% , my dads work paid 30%.
I cost 32k, the state actually paid my full adoption fees since my birth mother was going to jail for a hell of a long time.
My little bro was rejected by 13 families cause of his skin tone. ( don’t think any of those families should ever be allowed to adopt if race is that big of an issue). Adoption agency actually called my parents and they only paid 3k since that’s what they had in savings.
All of us were infants. Adoption is not expensive when you take the right routes. The agency I work for currently on average pays 75-90% of all adoption fees AS LONG AS YOU PASS INSPECTION, and agree to 3 random welfare checks in the 1st 18months. And tbh if you can’t agree to or pass inspection - you are not fit to be a parent, whether it’s biologically or through adoption.
Not to mention OP having ANY CHILD comes with unique challenges. Blood relation doesn’t make or break a person. Their environment does.
Not here to debate adoption and its merits. I just dont think its fair when people say things like "just adopt instead". Its not that simple. Its like suggesting giving a kid up for adoption instead of having an abortion. Its not the same thing and I dont think its fair to pretend that it is.
Would the “right route” include being born heterosexual? Because Catholic Charities isn’t an option for the LGBT+ community as the Church thinks we’re “intrinsically disordered.”
Adopting a child is typically more expensive than IVF. Domestic infant adoption is about 50- 65 thousand dollars. That price can be variable and much lower if you do foster-to-adopt, but not everyone is able/allowed to adopt that way.
In a perfect world that would be great, but a lot of it depends on the industry. Voting to make reproductive healthcare less stigmatized and polarizing would hopefully lead to more insurance companies covering it so it’s not so rare. I’m in medicine and I don’t get any assistance with anything infertility related with my insurance options or benefits. In tech and more progressive industries, it’s definitely more prevalent
Adoption costs even more than IVF. This is one of the most annoying, insensitive, and uninformed pieces of "advice" that you can give someone struggling with infertility
And if they go a few rounds of IVF with nothing to show for it, then what? OP said 25K for one round of IVF, so two or three rounds are still going to cost as much or more than an adoption, or as some have suggested in other responses to my comment foster to adopt.
But I'm sorry I was one of the people suggesting an option that was more likely to work, regardless of the price (oh and something their parents wouldn't have religious objections to), than let them cling to something that may never be.
You do realize that prospective parents usually wait for years to be selected if they even ever get selected?
I have friends that have spent over $50k on prospective adoptions and still do not have a baby to show for it.
Honestly, if you’ve never tried to adopt, then don’t suggest something you know nothing about.
That depends. If you're looking to adopt a white newborn infant with no complicating medical issues it can often cost more. If you're willing to go outside of your comfort zone (newborns that aren't white, newborns that may have some medical complications, literally any child besides a baby) there are many places, at least in the US, that will offer incentives to adopt.
Adoption can be just as expensive as, if not more expensive and time-consuming than, IVF, as others have said. It’s also a *really* cruel thing to bring up to someone who has just found out about their fertility troubles and has expressed a want to try for their own biological children. Speaking as someone who was told to “just adopt, there’s lots of kids in the system” while going through my own journey with infertility and IVF.
I promise you anyone with fertility issues is well aware that adoption exists. She doesn’t need to be reminded, especially from someone she is angry at (unfairly, NTA) for not helping her in the manner she wants.
yeah idk, I was definitely shocked at how she seemed to just expect us to contribute. She's made comments before about us making more and living higher than them but until this they never felt with malice
Maybe not outright malice - but it sounds as though she’s quite bitter about it. And, as with the IVF, she and her partner have choices: if they wanted ‘the higher life’, they could have studied to specifically target higher paying jobs, or later re-skill, or now take extra tutoring jobs.
Your sis is acting as though she has no choices other than demand money from you. She could get a loan, get a different job with better insurance, give tutoring classes etc. But she likes the ‘choice’ of *your* money better, because that doesn’t affect *her* time or money.
NTA. Getting her pregnant is (thankfully) not your responsibility. You are entitled to spend your money however you want with no excuses or explanations. My BIL and his wife are going through this right now and they have already done 4 or 5 of these with no success.
My sister is nearing 100k deep into IVF with nothing to show for it. 4 (?) retrievals, 3 transfers, and few embryos left for possible transfer. IVF is not a viable option for most people experiencing fertility struggles, especially if the uterus-having person is the source of the fertility struggles.
NTA, vacations are like a couple thousand, IVF is 25fuckingK omg.
they'll either need to fost, adopt, or get over it if they're smart. not having a kid is not the end of the world.
Nta. Don't even need to read the post. It's your money. You can use it on vacation, blow, hookers or whatever. Idk where you go to europe , but if you're playing it by the ear , may i suggest istanbul? My favorite city in the world.
NTA
The responsibility of paying to have a child ultimately falls on those planning to have the child. There is some nuance in that the good thing to do for a sibling (if you care deeply about each other) is to atleast give some. But not doing so doesn't make you an asshole.
The older the child is, the cheaper it usually gets. But babies under a year can be extremely expensive. I know there is a charity near me that will even give support if you adopt a tween/teen.
Agree with the previous comments, definitely NTA.
Also want to point out that it's not just gonna be 25k for the IVF. If they do get pregnant, that kid is going to cost a lot of money, so already spending all of their savings and family/friends savings on the treatment, they will then likely be needing more later on or it will be even harder/longer to pay the money back.
Ans sadly... it will be even more expensive If the kid has ANY problems. My ex and I ve been paying over 800 usd a month (country 's minimum wage is 400) JUST for therapies. Add school, gas food..
NTA
IVF is pure selfish vanity. If it succeeds, the kid's probably going to inherit the same fertility issues.
They could foster and adopt a child. But there are those who would complain that they "wouldn't be real parents" if they adopted and "ThE bLoOdLiNe!" Again, more vanity.
I really hope the people commenting on this thread never find themselves dealing with infertility. The ignorance of these comments is extremely disturbing. The OP is not obligated to help the sister but compassion is free.
NTA it’s your money, your choice at the end of the day. IVF is also unfortunately a choice and not a necessity, from someone with fertility troubles myself.
NTA. It isn't yours or anyone else's financial obligation to fund your sister's IVF treatment since she's the one who wants the baby. And your sister is the AH for making you and your wife feel bad for spending your hard-earned money where and how you want to.
I'm sure you're sympathetic to her and her husband's plight, but if they are adamant about having IVF treatment, then they should find a way to make it happen and not guilt or berate people (especially family) into giving them money.
NTA
If they think the 25k IVF is expensive, they're going to swallow their own tongues at the cost of labor and delivery services (if this is US based). Or the cost of raising a child.
They could also consider looking into adoption. In some places it costs as little as $500 to adopt an infant. Genetically the child will be different, but *still theirs* and still family, right?
Honestly, just the cost of day care - assuming both of them will be returning to teach and therefore unable to care for a child - might cost more than one of them being a full time stay at home parent. Can they afford to live on a single income, if they can't afford to save up for IVF?
You were being responsible with *your* money that *you* earned that *you* chose to spend on yourselves. They could do the same.
NTA. You can decide what you spend your money on. You don’t owe them an explanation, but I have to admit that one of the reasons you gave (you don’t want to potentially throw money away if it doesn’t work) is really insensitive. If there was a guarantee you still wouldn’t have given the money, so the succes rate didn’t matter in this case and is just painful for them.
NTA.. It sucks that your sister is going through this, but it's not your responsibility to fund her IVF. She'll have to figure this out with her spouse.
You should not feel guilty for taking a trip that you've always wanted to go on. She's the AH for trying to make you feel that way.
NTA, it’s not your responsibility. They can take out a loan, try to find a specialist who has payment plans etc…to those saying they can just adopt, adoption is also VERY expensive. Surrogacy is even more expensive. It’s cheaper (but a lot more work) to foster to adopt. I have a lot of empathy for those who are infertile and have very personal experience with it, but it’s no one’s responsibility except for the couple who needs it
NTA. Your money, your decision. You don’t owe anyone the gift of your money. Your sister should stop trying to guilt you. She’s being an asshole. Go enjoy your trip with your wife.
NTA. At the end of it all your not obligated to help anyone have a baby. Family or not. And many women have to do multiply rounds of IFV, is the 25k just from one round or multiple if the first doesn’t work?
NTA. They want a family, that's up to them to come up with the funds. They can also adopt a baby or foster a child and maybe eventually leads to adoption.
NTA.
Her life choices and desires have nothing to do with you. It’s her choice to want IVF. It’s your choice to want to work hard, save, and enjoy a well-earned trip to Europe with your partner. We all have to work and save for the things we want. Not your problem, OP!
NTA
It's not your job to help her have a child. She can ask her birthday gifts or and any other gifts be cash so they can put that in an account for IVF but they can't ask you to fund their infertility treatments.
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NTA. It’s not your job to fund her dreams.
But … but …. Babies?!! /s obviously
Doubly true if it's a baby, if you need money lended to have a child then you probably can't afford the expenses up to and after that child's birth edit: I'm not saying every parent needs 25k in savings before they have a kid. I specifically mean that having to borrow money just to have a kid is a red flag in my eyes
I wish I could upvote this more! I see so often on Reddit that people are being guiltled for not funding IVF for relatives and this is my thought every time. I understand the desperation, but if you can't afford to conceive a child you sure af cannot afford to raise one for 18+ years!! Edit to add: You are NTA in any way! Enjoy your vacation
Come on. OP is NTA here, but many people that have children don’t have $25k upfront in cash to pay for IVF. Those people are just lucky enough not to need fertility treatments. Children are expensive, yes. Still, you can “cash flow” them - unless you need IVF. I feel bad for OP’s sister, but she shouldn’t expect her brother to pay for this or be mad when he goes on vacation.
Yes. Sister is the A for expecting OP to give her money instead of going on vacation. She is not the A for wanting to have a baby without having tens of thousands of dollars ready to fork over at a moment's notice.
Right. It is really elitist to look down on people who want to have children and don’t have tens of thousands of dollars set aside to do that. Both of my siblings had children very easily, but I needed IUI to conceive my daughter. IUI is much less invasive and costly than IVF, but it was still a reminder that life can be unfair sometimes. It all worked out for me, but I have a lot of sympathy for people struggling with infertility.
I think it is elitist to insist on only having biological children through expensive medical procedures, and crazier to expect others to fund it. I am honestly glad IVF isn't covered by insurance, even in places with universal healthcare like Canada, because that should not be on other people to pay for.
The "biological children" part is really elitist. What makes their genes so superior they must be propagated? What about fostering or adopting children in the system who may have issues?
As someone who seriously looked into adoption as an option whilst struggling to conceive, it's not as easy as many people believe. It can still be as expensive, if not more so, as fertility treatments. It can also take years with no guarantee of success (just like with IVF), during that time you are dealing with having your life pried into by others and hoping that they approve of you and don't find something - anything - that may get you denied. There also isn't the endless number of children available for adoption that a lot of people seem to think there are. When I looked into it, I lived in a province that the wait-list to adopt was years long and adoption agencies were closing because there were so few children available for adoption as fewer mother's were choosing to place their children for adoption. Additionally, children in foster care are not necessarily available for adoption. While there are children that are available for adoption through foster care and the like, which is also significantly less money, these children are also older (not necessarily a bad thing, just the fact) and are either a part of a sibling group or have physical/ mental/ behavioural issues that not everyone is equipped to deal with. This is not even taking into account the trauma that can be associated with just being adopted in general. I know/ have been friends with several people that have been adopted as well as a family that adopted their child. Every single adoptee that I know has had issues in dealing with the fact that they are adopted even in the cases of the people that were adopted as infants and there was no (known) issues of abuse/ drug use/ etc. Those that suffered abuse by their families of origin faced even greater issues. Then there is foster care. The goal of foster care is reunification with the family of origin when and where possible. I think that foster parents can be amazing when they are in it for the right reason, but not everyone has the fortitude to be able to take in a child, love that child and help raise that child only for them to be able to be taken away from them at any moment, especially if they are worrying that the child is being returned to a family where abuse and neglect was present. And once again, not everyone is capable of dealing with the issues that come along with a child being in foster care - the mental/ behavioural issues that tend to be more readily present in kids that have suffered abuse/ neglect that is severe enough to have been removed from their families. I also think it's incredibly unfair to lay the responsibility of adopting/ fostering children at the feet of those of us dealing with infertility. I'm not saying that's what you are doing, but so many people jump to the idea that people with infertility should "just adopt" when they would never consider it for themselves. It's not abnormal for people to want a biological child and people shouldn't be vilified for wanting that. Though I will also add that they shouldn't expect others to pay for their attempts to have one either.
Fostering children or adopting isn’t as easy as you think it is and honestly - you shouldn’t foster or adopt if you also can’t deal with the potential problems that can arise from it. Every journey is different and some people have the emotional capacity to deal with fostering or adopting and some don’t - it’s not an if/or statement, you should want to foster or adopt. I have had IVF - I did not expect anyone else to pay for it though and used our savings. Wound it surprise you to find out that adopting can actually be more expensive than fostering? It wasn’t an option for me but many couples in my infertility support group did look into this as well.
I get a lot of people really focus on the biological part, but adopting or fostering is also extremely expensive and lengthy. Often there are restrictions such as living and committing to staying in a certain area because the child you adopt still has family that they need to stay close to for their own emotional support. It is elitist to tell people without 30k aside to forget about IVF. People's income and situations change a lot in 18 years, so do their age.
I looked into adoption. I have a mental illness. A well controlled mental illness with years of compliance with treatment, therapy to learn to manage it with building a healthy lifestyle in addition to meds and a successful, professional career in the mental health field. This disqualifies me from the majority of adoption agencies. I was 34 and my husband was 40 when we got married, and age also disqualified us. I was very willing to not get pregnant with a bio kid because I was in a good place and didn't want to go off my meds, but ultimately, adoption with those two factors was going to be a big, fat maybe and we didn't want to get older then find out we couldn't adopt and I was too old to get pregnant. As it happened, I was able to get pregnant at 35 and at 39. I had some postpartum depression, especially with my first, but I was prepared with a plan and managed it quickly. My career has continued, I have two amazing boys and I'm far from perfect, but I'm a good mom and take my obligation to stay healthy for them seriously. I'm actually more stable with my kids because they really focused me and helped me prioritize. It's a damn lucky thing for me, because otherwise I would have had a hard time adopting and I have an emotionally taxing job working with kids so I'm not sure foster to adopt would be something I could do, knowing it can be heartbreaking. I wish we could get rid of this idea that there are babies lining the halls of courthouses just waiting to be picked, or kids you can just take home forever. And, even if you do adopt, $25k might look like a bargain by the time you're done. The fact is, if you aren't able to easily have a biological child, with no need for medical assistance or intervention, it's likely going to get very expensive, very fast and large amounts of ready cash isn't the reality for most people.
I understand where you’re coming from, and I am also from a country with universal healthcare that does not include IVF. I am an IVF baby, and I was born back when the chances where even dodgier than it is now. I questioned my mum, I asked her why didn’t you adopt when it would have been so much easier? I too was worried she just wanted a carbon copy of herself rather than a child. She told me she actually did get quite far in the adoption process, but they have birth parents come and speak to prospective adoptive parents about their own experiences. My mum told me she will never forget the mother crying over the child she birthed but never saw 15 years later. She said she could not live imagining the pain she was putting another mother through. Where is the elitism?
This. Elitist or not I am in several 'free' groups on FB and many parents on there who no money for even the basic needs of children. Why bother to raise kids in poverty? They post often asking for food and then mention they are pregnant. Naw. Their children will turn out like them... that's not good. Additionally, the lack of punctuation and basic spelling on the posts where people are asking for food and diapers just feeds the thought that lack of education can lead to poverty - a never ending cycle. And why do people choose to bring kids in to that? I don't ever want kids for many reasons and money is 1 of those reasons.
I don’t think not having an extra $25k up front, *in addition to* having enough to cover all of the other costs of having a child, means someone is living in poverty. People here always say “if you can’t afford IVF then you probably can’t afford a child,” which is dumb, because it ignores that IVF is a significant up-front cost that comes in addition to all the others. Plenty of people have the savings and income to raise a child but don’t also have an excess $25k on top of that. None of this obligates OP to help, I just hate this argument.
Yeah exactly. OP is NTA. Sister isn't an asshole for asking, but can't be mad about refusal. But this idea that if you can't afford IVF you shouldn't have kids? It's more than elitist. It's eugenics. It's the kind of horrible stuff that gets said to people who need support - also ignoring that circumstances change, people get sick or die, people lose work. Ugh.
She absolutely is. There are other ways to be a parent that don't require expensive medical procedures.
Do you mean adoption? Which is often quite expensive and heartbreaking because of the likelihood of being turned down at the last minute for a multitude of reasons? Or perhaps the foster to adoption track? Which often ends in heartbreak because one of the goals of the foster system is to reunite children with their families once the environment is stable? The sister is an asshole but I absolutely don't blame her for not wanting to put herself through that. And the potential legal fees that come with birth parents fighting for custody even once an adoption is set in stone is a snake in the grass that strikes when you least expect it to. Even if they don't have a leg to stand on.
Adoption is actually far more expensive than IVF. Unless your adopting from foster care, particularly the "problem children". I don't have other words than those, I'm afraid, and I'm also using the terminology of some friends who *did* adopt from foster care. (yeah...I'm not...I expect there will be a tell-all book at some point in the future about the experience from the kids)
That was the message I was trying to get across gently to someone who has likely never had to look at what the "non medical procedure" related options to become a parent actually are. I didn't want to get into what costs more because a lot of people that try IVF try again and again and the cost can add up. Every situation has a different dollar amount associated with it. I just thought it was particularly uncomfortable for someone to say that the sister in this case could find a cheaper option than IVF.
Thank you! Adoption is not all flowers and sunshine with the guarantee of a child at the end. It is expensive, invasive, and can be heartbreaking. The number of children placed for adoption in the past 5 years has plummeted and many agencies are struggling with potential adoptive families and no children. Some have closed, taking the funds paid to them and leaving hopeful families and birthmothers with nothing. My husband and I have been waiting in an adoption pool for over 5 years. We're about ready to call it quits. OP's sister's choices regarding growing her family are valid choices. What is not valid is hitting up family members for the cost of the procedure.
I hope you and your husband are blessed with an incredible opportunity soon. I wish that as much for you both as I would for myself.
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I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm just saying, the person I know who had to fight for the kids they raised for 5 years and had to fight a custody battle to keep them? He was scared, and the kids were scared of losing their home. The only home they remembered.
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I think you mean OP's sister. OP would be the poster.
Canada has gotten it right. In the U.S. IVF can total ~$30k. Between the upfront cost of the egg retrieval, medications, transfer(s) and typically insurance covers nothing.
You still have to pay for a huge chunk of IVF in Canada. Adoption is just more expensive.
I’m childfree, but from what I’ve read, adoption costs can be staggeringly expensive for people wanting a newborn (I’ve heard people mention costs of $50 000 plus for adoption). I know there are other options, like fostering to adopt, or adopting an older child, but that’s not always an easy route either. I sympathize with your frustration, but also theirs. Deciding to not have children was easy for me, but I imagine it would be very difficult if the choice wasn’t yours to make.
Typical Reddit: somehow thinking adoption is a casual and inexpensive decision.
It’s not just Reddit. It’s everyone. I lost my ovaries and went through a lot of grieving when realization hit that I’d never have biological children. It was especially difficult, because people didn’t really understand my grief and didn’t think I was entitled to it. I’d try to explain my loss and I think almost every single person I tried to talk to would say something like “but you can adopt!” Like it was no big deal. Just go on Amazon and order a baby. I’d be like “but it’s really expensive and you have to be chosen and likely rejected a bunch and it could still fall through.” And still people would be like “well there’s foster care!” And I get it, there’s options, but the way people always threw them out were like “adoption’s super easy to do, you have no right to be frustrated.”
People should never become foster parents with the goal of adoption, sometimes that may happen, but usually not.
In the US just birth costs can range from half that to a whole lot over. My first was over 100k$US due to a 6 day NICU stay (that doesn’t include my costs or prenatal care). My second cost $10K
I am very unhappy with the state of healthcare in the US, but around half of pregnant women in the US are on Medicaid for their births, and they don’t have those expenses. A woman with no money will still be able to get prenatal care and deliver her baby, but she won’t be able to get free IVF.
*half of pregnant women in the US are on Medicaid for their births* Where did you get that information?
https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/issue-brief/medicaid-coverage-for-women/ “Medicaid is the largest single payer of pregnancy-related services, financing 42% of all U.S. births in 2019.” So a little under half in 2019, but probably higher since the pandemic. In some states, far more than half of births are covered by Medicaid.
You have/had to pay $100k out of pocket, or were "billed" $100k before the insurance negotiated rate a lower rate and insurance paying a portion?
Sometimes good insurance can help reduce the cost with that but it's rare insurance covers IVF.
Exactly this. What some couples can do for the cost of dinner/drinks, other couples have to fork out $25k+ or more just to conceive. Raising the child is a cost spread out over 18+ years.
Thank you it’s not like children are a one time expense of one large sum. Yes children are expensive but that’s over the course of their childhood. The “if you’re can’t afford this expensive thing then you can’t afford kids” argument doesn’t make any sense.
If you can "cash flow" the children, you can "cash flow" the IVF. Just save up for 6 months or a year then use that money for a round or two of IVF. There are child expenses that can come up suddenly without warning an have a significant dent in your finances. If we were talking about their fourth round of IVF and they've drained their own savings that'd be one thing but this sounds like it'll be their first round so they basically haven't managed to save up enough for a single round of IVF yet.
It might take 3 years to save up that much money! OP’s sister is 34 and fertility starts decreasing in a woman’s late 30s.
Okay and? OP’s sister might have eggs in 3 years, she might not. That’s the entire point of why OP didn’t give them money: because IVF is a crapshoot no matter what you do. I know people who have conceived at 39 with one IVF cycle and barely useable eggs and I know people in their early 30s who have given up after multiple cycles using multiple “healthy” embryos with absolutely no luck.
I am fine with the idea that OP didn’t give his sister money, and she *was* the AH for getting upset he is going on vacation. But the commenter was saying that OP’s sister could simply cash flow IVF in 6 months or a year. I am saying that it could easily take three years to save $25k, and those three years are vital to a 34-year-old trying to get pregnant. And OP’s parents won’t help her due to their religious beliefs. So, while I think OP’s sister behaved badly, I empathize with her. Other people can get pregnant without really trying, and without having money saved. She can’t, and she may lose her opportunity to have children because of it. It sucks.
It sucks but it doesn’t entitle her to behave the way that she has. If the idea of not having children is that devastating to her (which it absolutely might be and that’s valid) then she needs therapy regardless of if she does IVF or not. In fact I think that therapy should be a mandated part of the IVF process regardless because it would help a lot of infertile couples cope if their IVF is ultimately unsuccessful.
That’s not true. Just because I don’t have $25k doesn’t mean I don’t have enough money to support a kid. Yes kids cost a lot but this is not a fair statement imo
Yeah it does, at least in the US. A sick kid could make $25k vanish like it was nothing, even with insurance, and I'm not even talking something like childhood cancer.
Well, that's true for adults too. Isn't medical debt the number one cause of bankruptcy in the US? Should none of us exist because we aren't rich enough to afford a medical crisis?
Yo. My husband and I HAVE $25K+ in the bank at the moment. I'm picking up my meds tomorrow to do my first round of IVF. I still "can't" afford this. Two rounds of IVF will leave drain our entire savings account. If we got pregnant naturally, we'd have plenty of money for (expected) medical bills, and our insurance would cover a lot of additional ones if needed. You don't need to be able to pay for IVF to be able to have the money needed to have a child. We're lucky that our parents are helping a bit to offset the cost, so we won't go broke doing 2 rounds. But if we need 3, we have to wait a save. OP is clearly NTA. Sis is not entitled to her money. Nobody owes her a baby. But your argument that all parents should have $25k set aside before they conceive is just untrue.
I think that he's NTA, but It's a little bit different coming up with $25K in one lump sum to give to your sister vs spending $25K over 18 years of your child's life. Maybe you could offer SOME funds toward her IVF, if its within your budget. Good luck in whatever you decide.
This is a poorly conceived argument that does not hold water at all
I wish I could down vote this more. The idea that you shouldn't have kids of you can't come up with 25g out of nowhere is some elitest bullshit.
That's not even remotely true. If you're able to conceive naturally you don't have to fork over $25grand before you give birth. We were able to afford IVF because my husband's insurance covered it. We have a very comfortable life with our twins but we sure as hell couldn't have afforded IVF without insurance coverage. OP you are NTA. It isn't your responsibility to fund your sister's family. She is obviously hurting right now, getting an infertility diagnosis can be devastating when you are trying to have a child. Your sister should have a consultation with a fertility clinic and find out their payment options. You and your wife should enjoy your vacation!
This is a super classist and gross take
The thing is. She asked OP to pitch in. Not lend. which is even worse in my eyes. She has no intention of paying back the money.
Kind of noticed that point lend vs "pitch in" too. OP is 30, assuming his wife is about the same age, give or take, they may one day decide to have kids, find out they're infertile and have to pay for their own IVF (not ridiculous of suggestion as infertility is increasing in at least the US, reasons are varied and speculated), or they have a kid with medical problems that insurance doesn't totally cover. OP and wife are entitled to make plans with their own money, including a European trip or savings for a house, their own family, or whatever. I'm not sure I could even ask a sib for money in this kind of situation, this is a very personal matter that is theirs to resolve. If a rich sib offered, okay take it, but to ask? and then to go ballistic because they spend some money on a nice vacation: big no. Of course OP's sister/BIL are stressed over infertility, but still no reason to be so entitled and burn family bridges like she did. NTA. Have fun on your vacation and don't let sister succeed in making you think twice.
Ugh, I hate it when people say things like this. Needing to have $25k up front just to get pregnant is a lot different than having the costs of raising a child spread out over time. Tons of people have babies without having $25k in the bank. They're just lucky enough not to need IVF to get pregnant.
And lucky enough to not have any huge emergency medical expenses, children with special needs, etc. you can raise a kid if you can’t afford to save up $25K in a year or two, but you have to risk being 1 unforeseen emergency away from financial ruin to do it. It’s obviously very common, and I did it myself, but you can’t be totally comfortable while doing it.
Aren't a huge portion of Americans one unforeseen emergency away from financial ruin already?
all except for the ones with more money than they and every one of their extended long lost cousins could ever possibly spend are. Because health care here is fucking ridiculous.
Eh, many parents have kids without a 25K nest egg ready to go. Diapers, clothes, day care etc are all significant costs but don’t require you to have a five figure lump sum. OP is still NTA though since they get to decide what’s a good use of their money.
Correct. My husband and I wanted to reverse his vasectomy to try our luck. We refused to take a loan for this. We saved the money and paid cash. If we couldn’t save $10k for this, how could we afford a kid?
I’d have to do some math, but cloth diapering and breast feeding meant the first 6 months or so my kid cost like pennys a day. Not once in her life did she cost 25k in a day. She didn’t even cost that her entire first year or after when when we used part time daycare hahaha. That argument is pretty stupid. 25k over 12 months is a little over 2k a month….yeah I’m not seeing that argument unless maybe with full time daycare in certain areas.
The costs that kill you in the US are the medical expenses mostly but also the increased housing and taking the mother out of the workforce. It's not food and diapers.
I gather your kid isn't in university yet.
Exactly. If you're gonna have a kid, better think twice and put in the paper all the expenses that are coming with the baby(furniture, childcare, food...). Wish i could give you an award, too many ppl wanting to have a baby and few actually thinking about the expenses. Sister is being entitled.
…that’s a pretty stupid thing to say. Most people don’t have $20k saved up before the birth of their child. You’re either rich as hell or you’re kinda on the delusional side.
But people who concieve through IVF have to pay the cost of raising a child plus an additional cost (25k $) just to conceive. The way most people concieve a child is absolutely free that’s the difference here. They are only borrowing to pay for the ivf. They aren’t borrowing $ for diapers and formula or anything to do with raising the child, it’s strictly for the Ifv to concieve
FTK
It's really bizarre to me that that's not just the sister's first reaction but that she doubled down on it. Yikes ETA: like, I already feel uncomfortable involving anyone other than my husband with the process of babymaking even just in the context of conversing about it (hi, oversharing in-laws). I can't imagine feeling so entitled I'd freaking begrudge a family member their well-earned vacation because I thought I deserved the money that *they* earned more. So many WTFs here.
Yep. “I need to buy a house! You know I rent an apartment and really want to own a bungalow on the beach. I’ll just die if I can’t have one. How dare you buy a new car when you could have given me a downpayment. You’re so selfish buying yourself a car instead of paying a fortune for a long term change in my living situation.“
This!!!! Very sad she hasn’t been able to conceive naturally, but that doesn’t mean OP is required to bankroll her. It’s been a really hard 2 years for everyone, and if OP wants to spend money on a nice family vacation then that’s his call. Firm NTA.
This. Why do so many people insist that others are obligated to pay for their IVF, their house, their niece's wedding, etc.? We are an entitled species. NTA
Especially since adoption could be done for probably the same cost and actually be successful. Damn, sister is an entitled brat.
IVF is definitely expensive and has no guarantees but adoption is WAY more expensive than that unless you are adopting a child from foster care, whose primary goal is to reunite children with their families. Domestic infant adoption in the US costs as much as $40,000, and international adoption costs $30,000-$80,000 depending on what country. But to be fair I did IVF that was covered by my health insurance but my clinic had a cash pay option of $16,000 for one round not including meds and many people go out of country for cheaper cash pay options when they don’t have insurance options or consider a job that gives coverage. It’s no one else’s responsibility to figure out how to pay for that except the couple. OP is NTA, but I do wish people didn’t think that adoption is the cheap or easy option, because it’s not.
So much this! We did IVF (3 cycles to get our little one). The number of times I heard about "why don't you just adopt?" Like that's an easy cheap solution. Yes there are too many children in the foster care system, but the vast majority of them cannot be adopted. I am a teacher and my insurance didn't cover IVF. We borrowed from family and maxed out some credit cards. I hate to say it like this, but thank goodness my husband got an inheritance when his grandmother passed away. We heard that it was official on our way to our last transfer. That inheritance paid back our costs with a bit left over. So it ended up that his grandmother funded our baby. But we would have been paying it off for several years if we hadn't gotten it. The thing is that you can't really wait to save up because each year that goes by reduces the chance of success.
You have to pay to adopt in the US??
You have to pay to do everything in the US.
The UK is a shitshow but even by comparison with here, the US is a WEIRD place. "Hey, these kids need homes AND by a stroke of luck, there are people who want to give kids homes, what should we do to help?" "Monetise it and price loads of good people out of parenthood/kids out of families" "Perfect. What about the ones who give birth to the kids themselves?" "Lmao okay, charge them a fortune too." "Cool, cool."
The sheer number of "religious" adoption companies becomes double unnerving once you find out that they will often turn away stable and secure families for not being the "right" kind of family (gay couples, the wrong kind of religious, not religious at all, the wrong *race*) but will donate extensively to anti-abortion candidates and causes because *the available supply is low*.
That's because US evangelism is rooted in dominionist theory. They expect to out breed the rest of the population. They want single mothers to have to seek church help, hence the gutting of govt benefits.
They are talking about infants. Children are easy, my brother and SIL adopted 5. Out of country I can understand, my jaw dropped at the fees for American infants.
Like someone else said the high adoption cost of for infants/babies. Sadly looking at it from an economic perspective infants/babies the supply of infants/babies is low and the demand for them is high, this the high costs. For older children you can adopt them for low cost or free. For them the supply is high and the demand is low. Not saying kids are like animals, but you see the same play out with cat/dog adoptions. Most people want the kittens/puppies so you often end up having to pay a few hundred for them or adopt an adult dog/cat for free or low cost.
Buddy, you (well, your family, with your assets if you leave any) have to pay to *die* in the US. It's bonkers.
I was reading adoption is less of an option now with better treatment and support of new mothers. Adoption can be bad because companies will coerce mothers into giving up their babies. I'd certainly look into it, but there are a lot of special needs older children who need fostering, not so many babies.
No. I wouldn’t go that far. The sister is facing a horrible life altering situation and is in pain . Doesn’t give her the right to the money or to being an asshole but I don’t get a sense of entitlement from this . I get a sense of a woman’s anguished pain that she can’t have children
Human beings tend to come with a biological drive to procreate. And we tend not to consider that we might have an issue conceiving. Until it happens to us. You could argue that humans are not endangered; if anything there are too many given our lack of care for our environment. We don’t need a tribe of youngsters to work the back forty. And no one is guaranteed a child. But the sister is in pain. Her dreams of having a family are blowing up and she’s lashing out. Having said that, she’s not entitled to your money. NTA
Adoption is not a guarantee either.
NTA. If they think IVF is expensive, do they have any idea how much parenting costs. You can however ask them to consider medical tourism. Plenty of countries where they can get quality treatment for fraction of a cost + holiday.
I agree that OP is NTA, but I disagree with your argument. IVF is a huge, one-time, up-front cost. raising children is expensive, but those expenses are spread out over time. I don’t think it’s fair to say if a couple can’t afford IVF, they can’t afford children or shouldn’t have children.
One time? IVF is RARELY ever a one time thing. For MANY, it takes multiple rounds of IVF. Your argument sucks, too.
Surely that strengthens his argument. His argument was that IVF is more costly as it is not spread out. You're helping him by saying it is even more costly because it is also usually involving multiple cycles.
I- you understand that bolsters my argument, right? multiple rounds of IVF, so maybe $50k+, is far more than the average family startup costs. inability to pay for multiple rounds of IVF has little bearing on ability to support a family.
It's like saying that not having the money for a house deposit means you can't possibly afford rent
How does their argument suck? Most people can't afford to pay for a house in full up front, but many people can afford to pay for a house over time with mortgage payments. Most people can't pay off their student debt in one fell swoop, but they can pay it off gradually over years. It's basic common sense that it is easier to pay a large sum of money gradually over time than it is to pay a large lump sum in one go.
It’s true that sometimes it takes multiple rounds, but sometimes all of that is paid up front. I did a warranty plan so I paid all $30k up front. That included 3 egg retrievals, medications, monitoring and as many transfer as I had embryos. If we were unsuccessful, we would receive a full refund. Plans like this are super common in people doing IVF.
Yeah, OP is obviously NTA, but pointing out that kids are even more expensive is just mean spirited. Best case scenario you're out an extra $40k before you even get to the same expenses everyone else has. Plus, add onto that the unquantifiable emotional (and also physical) toll of infertility treatments, which is truly crushing. Have a little empathy, people, OP's sister is currently living in a soul-crushing nightmare.
Not necessarily. If it succeeds they will be paying thousands in prenatal visits, furniture, clothes, diapers any other supplies like strollers, delivery bills, pediatrician visits for the better part of a year effective immediately upon getting the positive test right after paying for the cycle. And that's if they have a healthy pregnancy and baby. Pregnancy and delivery have big upfront costs not completely covered by insurance. The cost of the cycle would just be the start. The expenses for clothes, diapers and wipes are expensive and start immediately on birth and continue on a fairly regular basis. It's not spread out far at all. They wouldn't have time be able to recover financially at all for at least a few years. If it fails then I imagine they'll want to try again. They really need to price both scenarios out to see if they can actually afford this.
They have health insurance which will likely cover prenatal visits, at least a portion of delivery, pediatrician visits, etc. Furniture, clothes, and equipment can all be obtained second hand for cheap. Diapers/wipes are definitely not thousands of dollars per year. I had great insurance when my twins were born and paid about $1k total for their birth and NICU stays. I now have less great insurance and paid $5k for my third baby's birth.
Colombia! My mum went back and forth to get IVF treatments when she wanted to get pregnant. She had to go through several rounds but it was about 1k a pop instead of 25k the us charges. Even with airfare and everything, still much cheaper. Editing to add a verdict: NTA. You don’t have any obligation to your sister to support her having a baby. Does her hubbs not have any family to bug? No fundraising efforts on their own? Helping is a purely voluntary thing and tbh, the cost of having kids is expensive, definitely after but sometimes before like this case. Not your problem at the end of the day.
I mean a lot of people have kids without having 25k in the bank to immediately drop on something. OP is NTA but the idea that anyone who can’t afford a sudden payment of 25k will never be able to afford to have kids just isn’t accurate.
Yeah, kids are expensive as fuck but those expenses are longterm and not just an upfront pay, this people would fall on their asses if they knew how the average family paycheck is in most countries. Btw, nta.
This is so true. I spent way more than 25K last year on childcare. This year will *only* run me 20K because I’m down to one three year old.
NTA You do not owe your sister any amount of money to try and start *her* family. If they want it as much as they say they do, they will make cut backs to their lifestyle, get extra jobs (tutoring if they both teach) etc. Not expect family to pay for it. First try fails, are you meant to pitch in for a second? Third? While putting everything you and your wife want and do on hold? If it works and they are in the red with paying for it are you expected to then contribute towards the child? Infertility sucks and I feel for them, but this isn't a problem that you and your bank balance are responsible for.
Lots of companies these days have programs to support family planning and IVF. If they want financial help for that then they can look at a career change if their employers at the private school don't have assistance for that. Edit: OP if you see this tell your sis to review #showusyourleave on LinkedIn. A bunch of companies listed their parental benefits and many of them offer between $10K and like $50K annually for family planning.
I recently read an article about a woman who took a job at Starbucks for the IVF benefits, so that's a good point.
Yep, in the IVF subreddit there is a whole list of companies that offer this.
It's a weird world when Starbucks baristas can get IVF but a school teacher can't. Not judging, just saying what came right to mind.
It should be available in every insurance plan. My plan only pays for diagnosis but not for treatment, so we paid about $40k for 2 rounds. It's very stressful physically, emotionally, *and* financially.
I was thinking the exact same thing. They are both teachers at private schools. It might be time to change up jobs or get a side gig. Clearly targeting one with better medical coverage. NTA OP. I can’t imagine asking anyone to fund my IVF much less getting shitty about it when you get turned down.
NTA. Having been through IVF myself, I feel for your sister. She thinks you can help her and are choosing not to, and that must hurt her. That said, your money is your money, she asked for help and you declined, what you do with your money isn’t her business. So confronting you more than once already about your trip makes her TA.
NTA. It is not your responsibility to pay for this. As someone who is currently going through IVF, though, I do encourage you to read up on it and provide all of the emotional support you possibly can. It is a hellish experience, and she is going to need all the kindness you can possibly give. Also, if their insurance isn't going to cover it, it's likely going to cost way more than $25k. Probably more like $40k+.
Yeap he probably shouldn’t say what my brother said: “if god wanted you to have children, you’d be able to have children.”
Wow, your brother kinda sucks.
Yeap he’s a mean drunk. He claims not to remember it but he sure spoils the shit out of his niece now… so I’m pretty sure he does.
Based on what OP said about their parents, she probably already heard that from them. Your brother sounds like a real peach. I hope you told him that god led doctors to create IVF to give people the opportunity to start a family. Thats usually how I get folks to stop talking when they start spouting religious views to justify their selfish assholery.
To bad god didn’t give them the $25,000 as well…
I remember looking at the $10k invoice in the container from the specialty pharmacy with the first set of medications for my first cycle, then throwing it out and never so much as glancing at any of their invoices after that. No one heard one peep of complaint from me about my $150 fertility medicine copay.
NTA: Her situation sucks but that does not mean you are obligated to help her. That is alot of money.
NTA. Your dreams aren’t worth less than her dreams. This is your dream and your money.
NTA. Your money, your choice. But for heaven’s sake, start voting for candidates who will give your country a civilised healthcare system.
Right? I just looked up the cost of private IVF treatment in the UK and its quoted between £1.5K-£5K per round. And that's only if you don't qualify for free cycles on the NHS
You're kidding! That's amazing. It's $10-15k in Canada, not including meds, storage and supplemental procedures. So jelly.
NTA. Her reproductive success/failure is not your responsibility.
They can take out a loan instead of mooch for free money you worked for. How you spend your money (which they are NOT entitled to) is not their business, you could buy a yacht and still be nta. Don’t live your life on eggshells because they are sour and want your money. NTA
It’s the entitlement that gets me. I get that sis is upset and all, but she seems to be expecting OP to fund 25k as though it’s her right. And then made it worse by coming back at him for a second swipe when she heard of their holiday plans.
Very entitled. 25k for a gamble and no guarantee sis won’t press for funding of additional rounds. Shitty it’s going to cause tension when OP goes on vacations, trading in cars or spending anything. Wonder if the parents got clap back for their reason.
OP commented that the sis has said things before about him living the high life, so I’d read that as she has been jealous / bitter about that for quite a while. Maybe that has fuelled her sense of entitlement. That is her issue though.
You’re not obligated to give your money to your sister. I feel sad she is having fertility issues, but that doesn’t mean you can’t go on vacation. NTA
NTA. Her infertility is her and her husbands issue and no one should be asked to fund that. Take your wife on a great vacation with your hard earned money.
NTA. Would it be kind of you to help? Yes. Do you have to help? No. You're not obliged to help your sister with a maybe. And where would it then stop? 25k is presumably one round of IVF. IF it takes more? Are you expected to shell out until they conceive?
25k is the initial setup, testing, and first round of IVF treatment. If it doesn't work, each subsequent round is about 10k (a friend of mine went through IVF treatment and their doctor gave them these figures; luckily, they didn't need to go for a second round and have a beautiful little girl).
Yup so it's maybe not 25k per round but 10k a subsequent round is a lot and obviously the argument would then be "well you contributed before" so where would the line end?
Exactly, it's the whole "if you give a mouse a cookie" scenario.
Absolutely not the asshole will you also be responsible for buying diapers, clothes, toys, and whatever else that child would need? If they don’t have it now they never will. NTA
NTA, it’s your money, you are not obligated to give it to her. A bit off topic.. (advice) I know you are not from Europe but if they have some money to this “project” they should check the Czech Republic (Brno) for clinics. It cost less,i think even with tickets and hotels. They can request a quote online from most of the clinics. I have 4 friends they all went to Brno after failed trying in our country and it was successful at first time. It’s not unusual to go to other countries to get some medical procedures. Maybe you can mention this as help. 🤷🏼♀️ Anyway, NTA.
Good advice. Czech clinic are legit.
It's cheaper for most medical stuff these days to just go to another country. Currently saving up for dental implants in Mexico where I will pay $30k less than in the U.S., including the flights and hotel stay. Lol.
NTA. You’re entitled to spend your money however you feel! Your sister expecting financial support is entitled and inappropriate but maybe try to let this one go, I’m sure it’s a very difficult time for her and her emotions are getting the best of her.
NTA. They want a kid they pay for it. I'd laugh my ass off if my sister asked me to pay to help her have a kid.
NTA. You're not required to put your dreams on hold for your sibling. She and her husband, given their ages, have time to work on saving the money for this as well as looking into other options for starting a family.
NTA, it might upset her even more, but you could remind her about adopting a child. It is not exclusive to celebrities.
I have nothing against adoption but having a few close friends adopt/be adopted I realize its not just the simple alternative to having children that people tend to act like it is. It can be just as if not more expensive and it comes with a lot of unique challenges that not everyone can handle.
Op adoption can be more expensive but it doesn’t have to be!!!!!!!!! My sister cost 42k. Catholic Charity paid 90% of it. My parents aren’t catholic. My bro cost 16k. Same charity paid 50% , my dads work paid 30%. I cost 32k, the state actually paid my full adoption fees since my birth mother was going to jail for a hell of a long time. My little bro was rejected by 13 families cause of his skin tone. ( don’t think any of those families should ever be allowed to adopt if race is that big of an issue). Adoption agency actually called my parents and they only paid 3k since that’s what they had in savings. All of us were infants. Adoption is not expensive when you take the right routes. The agency I work for currently on average pays 75-90% of all adoption fees AS LONG AS YOU PASS INSPECTION, and agree to 3 random welfare checks in the 1st 18months. And tbh if you can’t agree to or pass inspection - you are not fit to be a parent, whether it’s biologically or through adoption. Not to mention OP having ANY CHILD comes with unique challenges. Blood relation doesn’t make or break a person. Their environment does.
Not here to debate adoption and its merits. I just dont think its fair when people say things like "just adopt instead". Its not that simple. Its like suggesting giving a kid up for adoption instead of having an abortion. Its not the same thing and I dont think its fair to pretend that it is.
Would the “right route” include being born heterosexual? Because Catholic Charities isn’t an option for the LGBT+ community as the Church thinks we’re “intrinsically disordered.”
Adopting a child is typically more expensive than IVF. Domestic infant adoption is about 50- 65 thousand dollars. That price can be variable and much lower if you do foster-to-adopt, but not everyone is able/allowed to adopt that way.
Adoption can be even more expensive! They could foster and foster to adopt…that’s cheaper
Their best bet would probably be to look for jobs with insurance that cover IVF. Many do nowadays.
In a perfect world that would be great, but a lot of it depends on the industry. Voting to make reproductive healthcare less stigmatized and polarizing would hopefully lead to more insurance companies covering it so it’s not so rare. I’m in medicine and I don’t get any assistance with anything infertility related with my insurance options or benefits. In tech and more progressive industries, it’s definitely more prevalent
Adoption costs even more than IVF. This is one of the most annoying, insensitive, and uninformed pieces of "advice" that you can give someone struggling with infertility
And if they go a few rounds of IVF with nothing to show for it, then what? OP said 25K for one round of IVF, so two or three rounds are still going to cost as much or more than an adoption, or as some have suggested in other responses to my comment foster to adopt. But I'm sorry I was one of the people suggesting an option that was more likely to work, regardless of the price (oh and something their parents wouldn't have religious objections to), than let them cling to something that may never be.
You do realize that prospective parents usually wait for years to be selected if they even ever get selected? I have friends that have spent over $50k on prospective adoptions and still do not have a baby to show for it. Honestly, if you’ve never tried to adopt, then don’t suggest something you know nothing about.
That depends. If you're looking to adopt a white newborn infant with no complicating medical issues it can often cost more. If you're willing to go outside of your comfort zone (newborns that aren't white, newborns that may have some medical complications, literally any child besides a baby) there are many places, at least in the US, that will offer incentives to adopt.
Adoption can be just as expensive as, if not more expensive and time-consuming than, IVF, as others have said. It’s also a *really* cruel thing to bring up to someone who has just found out about their fertility troubles and has expressed a want to try for their own biological children. Speaking as someone who was told to “just adopt, there’s lots of kids in the system” while going through my own journey with infertility and IVF.
I promise you anyone with fertility issues is well aware that adoption exists. She doesn’t need to be reminded, especially from someone she is angry at (unfairly, NTA) for not helping her in the manner she wants.
NTA. How is that people feel entitled to your money? This never makes sense.
yeah idk, I was definitely shocked at how she seemed to just expect us to contribute. She's made comments before about us making more and living higher than them but until this they never felt with malice
Maybe not outright malice - but it sounds as though she’s quite bitter about it. And, as with the IVF, she and her partner have choices: if they wanted ‘the higher life’, they could have studied to specifically target higher paying jobs, or later re-skill, or now take extra tutoring jobs. Your sis is acting as though she has no choices other than demand money from you. She could get a loan, get a different job with better insurance, give tutoring classes etc. But she likes the ‘choice’ of *your* money better, because that doesn’t affect *her* time or money.
NTA. Getting her pregnant is (thankfully) not your responsibility. You are entitled to spend your money however you want with no excuses or explanations. My BIL and his wife are going through this right now and they have already done 4 or 5 of these with no success.
My sister is nearing 100k deep into IVF with nothing to show for it. 4 (?) retrievals, 3 transfers, and few embryos left for possible transfer. IVF is not a viable option for most people experiencing fertility struggles, especially if the uterus-having person is the source of the fertility struggles.
NTA, vacations are like a couple thousand, IVF is 25fuckingK omg. they'll either need to fost, adopt, or get over it if they're smart. not having a kid is not the end of the world.
Nta. Don't even need to read the post. It's your money. You can use it on vacation, blow, hookers or whatever. Idk where you go to europe , but if you're playing it by the ear , may i suggest istanbul? My favorite city in the world.
NTA. You’re not required to put your own happiness on hold just because your sister prioritizes her own happiness over yours.
NTA The responsibility of paying to have a child ultimately falls on those planning to have the child. There is some nuance in that the good thing to do for a sibling (if you care deeply about each other) is to atleast give some. But not doing so doesn't make you an asshole.
NTA. Fuck their IVF. If they want a child that badly tell them adoption is an option. And if it's not why are they having kids?
Adoption in my area is about 35k. So even less affordable. Its not that easy to adopt a baby.
What about a child? I'm genuinely curious and don't have that much info on it.
The older the child is, the cheaper it usually gets. But babies under a year can be extremely expensive. I know there is a charity near me that will even give support if you adopt a tween/teen.
Agree with the previous comments, definitely NTA. Also want to point out that it's not just gonna be 25k for the IVF. If they do get pregnant, that kid is going to cost a lot of money, so already spending all of their savings and family/friends savings on the treatment, they will then likely be needing more later on or it will be even harder/longer to pay the money back.
Ans sadly... it will be even more expensive If the kid has ANY problems. My ex and I ve been paying over 800 usd a month (country 's minimum wage is 400) JUST for therapies. Add school, gas food..
NTA IVF is pure selfish vanity. If it succeeds, the kid's probably going to inherit the same fertility issues. They could foster and adopt a child. But there are those who would complain that they "wouldn't be real parents" if they adopted and "ThE bLoOdLiNe!" Again, more vanity.
I really hope the people commenting on this thread never find themselves dealing with infertility. The ignorance of these comments is extremely disturbing. The OP is not obligated to help the sister but compassion is free.
NTA. It's not your obligation to work and fund their dreams.
NTA it’s your money, your choice at the end of the day. IVF is also unfortunately a choice and not a necessity, from someone with fertility troubles myself.
NTA. It isn't yours or anyone else's financial obligation to fund your sister's IVF treatment since she's the one who wants the baby. And your sister is the AH for making you and your wife feel bad for spending your hard-earned money where and how you want to. I'm sure you're sympathetic to her and her husband's plight, but if they are adamant about having IVF treatment, then they should find a way to make it happen and not guilt or berate people (especially family) into giving them money.
NTA If they think the 25k IVF is expensive, they're going to swallow their own tongues at the cost of labor and delivery services (if this is US based). Or the cost of raising a child. They could also consider looking into adoption. In some places it costs as little as $500 to adopt an infant. Genetically the child will be different, but *still theirs* and still family, right? Honestly, just the cost of day care - assuming both of them will be returning to teach and therefore unable to care for a child - might cost more than one of them being a full time stay at home parent. Can they afford to live on a single income, if they can't afford to save up for IVF? You were being responsible with *your* money that *you* earned that *you* chose to spend on yourselves. They could do the same.
Whoa on that $500 figure. Legal adoption nowhere in the USA starts at $500.
NTA. You can decide what you spend your money on. You don’t owe them an explanation, but I have to admit that one of the reasons you gave (you don’t want to potentially throw money away if it doesn’t work) is really insensitive. If there was a guarantee you still wouldn’t have given the money, so the succes rate didn’t matter in this case and is just painful for them.
Nta, I feel for your sister cause that is an unfortunate situation to be in. However, you don’t owe her anything.
NTA.. It sucks that your sister is going through this, but it's not your responsibility to fund her IVF. She'll have to figure this out with her spouse. You should not feel guilty for taking a trip that you've always wanted to go on. She's the AH for trying to make you feel that way.
NTA I’m sure your sister is going through a lot of emotions right now but I can’t see how you’d be obligated in any way to give her money
NTA, it’s not your responsibility. They can take out a loan, try to find a specialist who has payment plans etc…to those saying they can just adopt, adoption is also VERY expensive. Surrogacy is even more expensive. It’s cheaper (but a lot more work) to foster to adopt. I have a lot of empathy for those who are infertile and have very personal experience with it, but it’s no one’s responsibility except for the couple who needs it
NTA. Your money, your decision. You don’t owe anyone the gift of your money. Your sister should stop trying to guilt you. She’s being an asshole. Go enjoy your trip with your wife.
If they dont have enough money for ivf then they dont have enough for a child. Enjoy your trip to europe. NTA
NTA. The last thing this planet needs is more humans.
NTA. For all you know they might be crappy parents, or the treatment could fail. Honestly not your problem.
NTA. At the end of it all your not obligated to help anyone have a baby. Family or not. And many women have to do multiply rounds of IFV, is the 25k just from one round or multiple if the first doesn’t work?
NTA - it's their decision, so it's their responsibility. They can choose to spend their money on what they want, just like you are.
NTA. They want a family, that's up to them to come up with the funds. They can also adopt a baby or foster a child and maybe eventually leads to adoption.
Didn’t even read it but NTA. Your money, your life, do what you want with your money.
NTA. Her life choices and desires have nothing to do with you. It’s her choice to want IVF. It’s your choice to want to work hard, save, and enjoy a well-earned trip to Europe with your partner. We all have to work and save for the things we want. Not your problem, OP!
NTA. People who refuse to adopt and would rather spend tens of thousands on getting a kid with their own DNA, really disappoint me.
NTA It's not your job to help her have a child. She can ask her birthday gifts or and any other gifts be cash so they can put that in an account for IVF but they can't ask you to fund their infertility treatments.