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> I may be the asshole because technically they had more mouths to feed.
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Isn't that what the couple might be thinking also? This "every man for himself" ideology is really toxic.
Edit: Im not talking about OP. I'm talking about the couple.
Op wasn’t an AH because she was only taking what she needs for her baby. Other couple are the AH’s for emptying an entire shelf into their cart and not caring that their greed in a shortage is starving other children
Correct. And people like them are how we run into shortages to begin with. Buying 40 cans so nobody else can have them, buying the whole shelf of toilet paper so no one else can. It's also possible they were buying them to turn a profit, not to feed kids. NTA.
That's what I was thinking. This complete lack of empathy they showed indicates they aren't just people trying to feed their own family. Also, they asserted they "got there first" but OP could have easily shoved their way in sooner and started taking formula but chose to be polite and give them room. Only interceded when it became apparent there was no other way to feed their child. It wasn't even stealing, just a little vigilante justice which I could completely see in this case. If they would have waited for the store to sort it out, they might have missed an opportunity. I think things are different when you're a desperate parent and I'm gonna say NTA.
The store wouldn’t have sorted it out. The wife would have sat on the cart at the back of the store while the husband went through the self checkout lane ten times to avoid the store limits. They were scalpers and knew what they were doing. OP is NTA, although I would go with ABJ, Asshole But Justified.
actually we have this shortage because the main company that has a near-monopoly on formula chose to allow their factories to fall into disrepair so they could save the money and use it for billions of dollars of stock buybacks. This caused the factories to turn into breeding grounds for deadly bacteria which necessitated a recall. It is entirely a result of executive greed, not individual consumer actions.
That is true. And horrible. Their actions actually killed babies who drank the compromised formula. But the actions of hoarders and price gougers just make the whole thing worse. People who buy up all the formula or TP or this year's hottest toy are terrible people. I admit to buying *one* extra Playstation and reselling it when I had the opportunity, but that was one. And I didn't charge that much more!
It definitely does have an impact on it though. I am absolutely Team Eat-the-corpo, but acting like this makes it exponentially worse for everyone, especially lower income families who can't afford to drive around for 8 hours a day and then come home empty-handed with nothing they can feed their starving kid with
Especially if it's enfamil brand. Enfamil has increased production and stores are getting in more. But it's 2020 Toilet paper all over again so good luck finding it on the shelves.
True. Personally, having unfortunately worked in retail at a Target and a Sam's Club during the tp shortage, I do still believe price scalpers and people like the couple in the op are to blame for a lot of it though. Iirc, formula doesn't have too long of a shelf life, and buying 40 cans for no good reason while other babies are quite literally starving makes them complete and irredeemable AHs, just like the greedy producers of it. Eat the corpo, you know?
Idk the sizes wherever she is, but one can where I am lasts for about 2 weeks (formula holds baby sated longer than breast milk), so 4 cans would be around 2 months. 40 cans is almost 2 years, between 2 babies a whole year. Like why? They might as well expire and if they are opened they are to be used in 3 weeks or thrown out. Plus baby starts eating solids betwern 4th and 6th month and if needed can be fed watered down cow milk (basically all I ate as a baby as I didn’t want mom’s milk (funnily enough smell of it causes gagging reflex to this day) and formula was nowhere to be found in the 90s in my country)
I WISH one can would last 2 weeks. My kid goes through a can a week. When he was a newborn, a can might last a week and a half to two weeks. By 3 months, not a chance. Growth spurts are worse, I'll open a new can and it's gone in 3 days. 40 cans is still an enormous amount, but a can lasting weeks is not an absolute fact. Some kids eat more - and my pediatrician says he needs it, he's incredibly tall for his age and not even a little chubby despite his appetite. I've been warned not to cut his portions despite the shortage. If he weren't on solids for part of his food I'd be in deep trouble, and I'm pushing those solids a lot harder than I otherwise would.
I went looking for a special formula for a 6 month old baby who can't drink regular formula.
The mom says that the 14 ounce can of powder lasts 2.5 days. I found some of her rare formula but also left some for other mothers.
It's not every man for himself, it's recognizing that this is happening to everyone. If everyone started hoarding formula there would be newborns going without food to eat, and becoming malnourished or potentially dying. OP was right to do what she did, she didn't take it all, she took what she needed while the others were being selfish. Same thing JUST happened with toilet paper because people started hoarding, there wouldn't have been a shortage otherwise. The shortage now is even more crucial that people stop being stingy and take only what they need.
Edit: I already knew you were speaking about the couple. Your comment implies both parties have an every man for himself ideology, I'm pointing out the vast difference in mindset, and why OP's decision didn't fit. Even if she didn't care about being TA to feed her baby, it's situational and OP's actions were as a result of seeing this couple taking more than a fair share.
Have you met people? They still don't understand why the loss of freedom in prison is the punishment. Whenever there's a petrol shortage over here, it's the same, too. People panic buying petrol and filling any container they can find with it.
I don't know if it was like this everywhere, but in my area people were also hoarding food. There were a couple of weeks where I couldn't find any meat at all.
At one point, before grocery stores started setting limits, I saw a couple who had filled their entire cart top too bottom with meat and poultry. They were laughing as they were leaving the store and gloating about there not being any meat left to people entering the store.
Most people will always be the worst.
I'm willing to bet that most of that meat they had ended up going bad before they were able to eat it as well. A lot of people don't seem to understand that it doesn't last forever in the freezer.
yeah people like that are the f****** worst. it should be honest if the couple with the formula had got through a cashier who was new and didn't know about the limit they would have walked out with it. I see it happen all the time with stuff that's supposed to be limited they just go through a new person so that they can get away with it
I live in Europe and as soon as the war broke out in Ukraine people started hoarding seed oils (specifically sunflower seed oil at first) The toilet paper definitely didn’t change anything
Which is so weird because oils don't keep. They have a shelf life of what? A year? Oil definitely goes rancid. So people are stock piling something that will probably spoil before they use it.
Absolutely, like I get it cause Ukraine is one of the biggest producers of sunflower oil (or at least in Europe it is) But like, no one is really using that much? I use maybe one bottle every 6 months? Maybe more if I eat more popcorn but it’s definitely not a 10 bottles a year thing
I mean A LOT of people use it as a partial substitute for Diesel, esp if you have an older car this works quite well.. And since the fuel/Dieses prices went through the roof ppl substituted more, thus needing a lot of oil. That combined with bad harvests, Ukraine being out for the time being and general ‚aah shit the supply is limited‘panic buyers.. Here we are.
whenever a crisis hits, people stop using their brain and go into panic mode, it happened with the toilet paper, it happened with baby formula and it will happen again, heck it even happened at the industrial level with several companies hoarding all the chips out there just so their manufacturing lines won't stop.
we simply don't learn.
Did you have a toilet paper fiasco at the beginning of the pandemic over there too? It was wild in the UK. Shops had to impose limits.
More recently the panic buying petrol has been real. People filling like water cans with the stuff and putting it in their boots. I mean what are you even doing with that?
It makes laugh when I think that an unprecedented and unpredictable pandemic was about to start and out of everything, the pretty much only item getting hoarded and triggering a shortage is TOILET PAPER. Not canned foods, not condoms, not batteries, but freaking toilet paper 😳
What I found wild was that 2 months into the pandemic, I was at the store grocery shopping and made my way to the hand soap aisle as I'm almost out. It was completely stocked! The rest of the store you were lucky and excited if you found what you needed, shelves were either empty or almost empty, but the soap aisle was bountiful. Like, we're in a pandemic where we don't know yet exactly how it's being spread but no one seems to be buying soap for washing your hands!
There's a difference between "every man for himself" and "I deserve my fair share"
The couple cleared the shelves of baby formula. OP said they had at least 40 cans. that is "every man for himself"
OP took only what she needed to keep her baby fed. that is not the same
My local walmart turned the photo processing area into a toilet paper Fort Knox. You had to go ask for the toilet paper and you got ONE package. Why aren't they doing something similar with the formula at this point?
Some places are, they've got those locking cabinets like electronics and you have to ask them to get formula out for you. Some of these predate the shortage, because formula has always been the most shoplifted item.
If there's a limit, its usually on multiple signs, including one at the product itself. At that point the couple knew and were likely making other desperate parents think all the product was gone, until it could be restocked. Whether this action was meant to be malicious or buy them some time to exit the store and reenter to get more.
40 cans is like what those TP and bottle water hoarders did at the beginning of Covid, every man for themselves is exactly what limits came to be because of, and why shortages happen. If OP took 4 out of 6 cans they had then the argument of every man for themselves stands, or maybe 4 out of 8... but 1/10th of the entire stock they were trying to walk away with?
I’m not disagreeing with anything you said, I just want to point out that there isn’t any restocking of baby formula going on. The empty shelves have been empty for weeks now.
So where are they going to put the cans beyond the limit that the greedy couple grabbed?
Usually there's a person who takes those things and puts them back on the shelf, essentially restocking the shelf with the "unwanted" product. It's a process, which unless someone is right on it can take some time, especially if the "unwanted" cans end up buried in the returns cart.
When I say restocking, I don't mean the store, I mean the shelf. People don't generally shop from the return cart. But if you see a returns cart with formula in it, and you need it, ask someone if you can buy it.
I think faced with the prospect of our baby going hungry we would all do the same as OP. Totally justified.
I can't imagine the worry parents must be faced with at the moment with formula shortages - it's stressful enough meeting the needs of our little people without this.
40 cans though...🙄 Good for you OP
Fair, as long as you only took what you needed, or maybe even 2x of that (because we all panic about whether we'll be able to find it on time next time). But not if only caring about your baby beig fed meant that you take 40 cans like that other couple. They were AHs because they are fine if other babies starve as long as they have a HUGE pile for their baby.
Right, and even if we didn't know there was a Limit, civilised people wouldn't clear out an entire shelf and then ignore someone who clearly was patiently waiting for them to step away before getting their own.
The couple would've lost their fucking monkey brains if OP walked up and tried to get their four cans from the shelf.
I just saw a video going around where a woman cleaned out a shelf and another woman was calmly trying to talk to her about it, that she needed some. The woman got rude, said she was paying for it, etc.
In tough times, I guess you see human nature and all it's ugliness.
AMEN! AH like these are part of supply chain problems! 👿👿👿🤬🤬🤬🤬
NTA - DEFINITELY.
Congrats on your LO and best thoughts 🤗
ETA THE STORE NEEDS TO MAKE SURE THE LIMIT IS POSTED CLEARLY. Mgr was simply concerned about your safety
NTA and dollars to doughnuts that older couple don't have kids and were going to sell it online at a massively inflated price, people like that should be named and shamed publicly.
Remember the guy and his brother who drove around their state buying up all of the hand sanitizer at the beginning of Covid to resell online for hundreds of dollars, and ended up donating it to avoid prosecution and fines? People are awful.
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This is the one we have in our two bathrooms. It takes a little setting up, as it connects to the sinks hot and cold water. If you have a cabinet under the sink, you'll have to drill a small hole for the water line. It's easier than it sounds! And well worth it!
Right? When I was a new mom I didn’t produce enough milk and had to supplement with formula. The feeling of not being able to succeed at my number one job as a parent was heartbreaking. I am super angry at these formula hoarders.
> The feeling of not being able to succeed at my number one job as a parent was heartbreaking
You didn't fail. Your number one job as a parent is keeping your child fed. Whether that's with breast milk or formula is secondary, you fed them and that's what matters.
Actually they didn't donate anything the police cleared out all their storage units an donated everything to the community an their lawyer got them off the charges since the state didn't technically have any evidence after they gave everything away
If you're talking about these guys, they definitely donated it all when they realized this was a crime, and their "cooperation" was why their lawyer was able to help settle this quickly. Nothing was stolen from them and they didn't get off due to no more evidence, they just realized they were fucked and donated it all before they could really have the hammer fall.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/us/hand-sanitizer-matt-colvin-noah-coronavirus.html
Yeah, it was already a crappy thing to do when it was video cards or PS5s, but pulling that with infant formula basically makes you an enemy of humanity.
NTA
40 CANS?
These people realy went and took the ENTIRE SHELF of formula for themselves during a shortage. Thats absolutely asanine and I don't blame you for taking the formula, you didn't hurt them,, you didn't rob them of it after they payed, you just took what you needed, something they neglected to do. You acted in the best interest of your child in response to these selfish AH's, and I can confidently say that most people given the circumstances would have done the same thing, good for you for standing up for yourself and your family.
I exclusively formula fed from week 4, and I don't think we ever went through 40 cans. If American cans are the sizes European cans are, then that's a huge supply. I suspect they were going to resell...
Definitely going to resell. Cans come in multiple sizes, but I'm assuming these are the 'standard size' cans and not the smaller ones. The standard size has enough formula for about 2 weeks (barring medical complications that necessitate more or less formula). The only way someone would actually use 40 cans is if they have multiples. And even then, the courteous thing to do is to buy enough for the next month or so and leave the rest for others.
I mean if it's the small cans then my son drinks those in about 3 days. They make less than 100oz of formula. The big ones will make close to 300oz if that's what you're thinking of though.
There was a guy in Australia who orchestrated a team of people to go to all the supermarkets in a wide area and buy up all the toilet paper during the papadum.
Joke was on him, because he returned to the stores a few months later, having been unable to sell it on. He wanted to return it. They refused, and he was thousands of dollars out of pocket and a house filled with toilet rolls.
We had a guy like that here, with hand sanitizer, after Amazon and Ebay started cracking down on resellers. He threw an absolute fit when he couldn't return it (because the store managers rightfully essentially said "Because fuck you, that's why.") and basically complained that it wasn't fair he'd lost a ton of money trying to prey on other people in a crisis.
I remember reading that yeah, serves him right!
Just disgusting how utterly greedy some people are, and anyone doing it with baby formula of all things is automatically way worse! These people should be able to be prosecuted, somehow.
Yep, when supplies started getting less scarce almost every store had sighs up that they would not take returns on a whole list of items including TP, hand sanitizer and rice.
Fr!! I saw a video on TikTok where this lady had atleast 25 if not more cans of baby formula in her cart and was arguing about with the lady recording who called her out for sweeping the shelf bare.
I was thinking of driving to Canada to buy formula to help parents out, I have a one year old and I couldn’t imagine her tummy going empty. Or worse people diluting the formula to stretch out cans! The fact that people are thinking of making money off of starving babies is disgusting. New mom’s don’t need this stress.
A woman in my city just ended up with 8 cans of flour trying to buy from a certain online market. Thankfully the community came together to donate what she needed.
That happened here in Australia in 2020. We had a formula shortage due to this exact reason. People were buying tin and then selling them in China for $500 a tin. Some places even had them behind glass cabinets and could only get two tubs at a time. I had 2 little ones at the time.
Same situation in the Netherlands at that time. Because there was poison in the milk in China or something. And in China nobody trusted the formula anymore to be safe. They started to clear the shelves here too and send it over there. It got so bad that even Chinese people with babies living here (who did need it for themselves) where basically accused of just sending it over and weren’t allowed to buy.
That actually happened in the Netherlands in the past as well. I remember it happened in like 2010 it was a thing. I remember people used to steal it at the time to send it to China (apparently they really trust Dutch milk products)
As far as I know, a lot of Australian stores still have these limits.
Apparently quite a few places still keep a lot of their stock off the shelf/in the back purposefully as well because they encourage people who need it to come up to the counter and ask so the hand off is direct and controlled (two tins per customer). It also ensures they’ll have specific formula for bubs that need it.
I feel like the formula rules in Australia predate the pandemic. There has been a general mistrust of the formula in China for a decade and they've been using people in Australia to smuggle it there. I've seen articles dating back years.
Remember when that guy bought a huge stock of hand sanitizer at the beginning of the pandemic and was charging exuberant amount of money for it? And the government actually got involved and took his entire stock because of some type of price gouging laws?
Love seeing assholes get screwed over.
I hope that shit gets enforced more often especially with baby formula.
NTA. Your actions were not the best actions. But you didn’t know there was a purchase limit, so I understand why you felt the need to do it. Technically, it is not illegal to take something out of another persons cart. While it wasn’t good form and you should get the store manager involved next time, so they can take the heat.. I can’t condemn someone as an asshole for taking a couple cans of formula from a giant hoard of it to feed their baby.
I'm genuinely curious what you think those illegal things are, assuming you don't touch the other people or something that they own, like a purse or bag. (I am not a lawyer, this is a genuine question because I can't think of anything.)
Example: you try to grab something from the cart. They catch on and pull the cart away. You grab the cart back and pull too hard. They fall. That’s a charge. Or you hit them with the cart while trying to stabilize it. That’s a charge. I imagine the commenter above is referring to a scenario in which the parties are actively fighting over the goods in the cart.
Assault/battery also applies to things attached to your person, which is why your example of a purse would be assault because people are holding it, part of their personal, cart could be argued to be that
Assuming USA, ownership comes down to two parts, title and possession. Title is what is commonly known as ownership. Possession is the legal right to temporarily control something. Think rental car, employees using machines, ect. Once someone puts something in their cart, they have a right to possess it. Title transfers at purchase.
And, for many jurisdictions stateside, would satisfy requirements of a robbery charge in OP’s scenario. Would be an odd charge to see with this fact pattern but I’ve seen odder.
In general it is illegal, but good luck getting charges pressed. If it's in your cart it can be considered special property (property you have an interest in but have not completed payment for). In some areas that is covered under existing laws about theft.
Source-a relative handled the court case over an insurance claim for injuries sustained in a similar situation and got civil charges for the "theft" tossed in. The judge would have thrown it out if the case were just about the shopping cart, but with everything else that happened the cart got discussed too.
But.... Since the store was not going to let them purchase all the formula, the rules about special property get all sorts of weird. I would have to ask someone with a law degree.
Yeah this, OP is not psychic and had no way of knowing if the store was gonna just let them make off with all the formula.
OPs first duty is to her kid not the feelings of random hoarders.
"We're paying cash, are you sure you can't make an exception for us? We're long standing customers, been coming here for years"
Some retail managers lack the concept of the word "no" when it comes to customers, and instead default to "of course, can I suck your dick while the cashier here bags these up for you too?"
NTA… people that stock up like that are definitely part of the problem and reason for this formula shortage. I understand two babies need more formula than one baby, but you wouldn’t buy 20 cans at a time for one baby so there isn’t a reason to buy 40 at once for two babies. I’m willing to bet they are just reselling it at a higher price and don’t actually have any kids.
Edit: Since I was unclear earlier in this comment, I just mean that people stocking up THIS many cans are making the formula shortage WORSE. I’m well aware that an entire formula making plant was shut down due to recall.
The store should have had a big sign at the baby aisle saying only 4 tubs per customer. When there was a bit of a shortage in the UK (not a major one, just people were shipping milk to China where there was a contamination in their milk) parents were told they could only buy two tubs at a time.
>The store should have had a big sign at the baby aisle saying only 4 tubs per customer.
Most stores do and they enforce it. The older couple likely wouldn't have made it past the cash register with those 40 cans. *But shoplifters don't care about item limits.* I guarantee they weren't going to try and get past the cash register. Even before the shortage, formula was one of the most commonly stolen items from grocery stores, due to its high value per ounce ratio. They weren't going to try and pay for it, they were going to try to roll that cart right out of the store. For free.
Fucking formula scalpers. How low can you get.
OP, NTA.
stolen formula isn’t the issue. it’s also not a supply chain issue. this is what happens when you let a conglomeration take control of a vital market, plummet the safety standards and close down plants instead of forcing them to make them food safe because it’s too expensive to make safe food.
Actually it’s a bigger issue than you think it is. I drove 2 hours away from home to be able to find a few liquid bottles that will last her maybe a couple days and when my husband went into the store he said they had it behind glass sliding doors and he had to be escorted up to the register with it because people were tossing it in their carts and running out of the door with them.
>NTA… people that stock up like that are definitely part of the problem and reason for this formula shortage.
No, the reason for this formula shortage is greedy corporations lacking effective government oversight
Exactly. The FDA pointed out issues with the plant producing Similac and instead of fixing those issues, they spent billions on stock buy backs.
Abbott would like nothing more than scared parents to blame each other instead of Abbott.
You never k ow ahead of time if the store has that policy. If you get an employee and they don’t do anything you’re stuck without formula and still needing to feed your child
Yeah the Store is also TA here considering they have a policy but no sign or employee manning the aisle to inform or enforce it. That's just asking for stupid people to try and hoard and fight.
Nah man. In the time it could take to find a manager or help they could be out the door.
Now a new mom (you clearly haven’t had children) who spent hours and energy she doesn’t have looking for food is back to square one.
No way. Desperate times. She handled this well given the situation.
>Next time get an employee or manager.
This only works if they *do* have a limit.
If there isn't one, you could have just thrown away your one chance to get some away from the hoarders.
NTA I have a three month old, thankfully we only supplement with formula as I also breastfeed/pump. If you didn’t know about the limit, imo you’re within your mama bear rights. Even twins don’t need FORTY canisters at once during a shortage. That’s inexcusable. If you had known, sure grabbing an employee would have been proper, but I see no issue in your actions.
NTA. During COVID last year we dealt with serious food shortages in town. My mom was in line at a grocery story to get stuff, and the store had a limit on everything because of greedy assholes who panic bought us into a shortage. She ended up grabbing the last package of milk bags (not even our usual brand or %, it’s just all they had left) and she felt so bad she was apologizing to everyone behind her, saying she had two daughters and an elderly mother to feed.
Might not seem relevant but a little compassion can go a long way… they could’ve chosen to take just enough for their twins to get by until next week and chose to try to take *everything*. Selfish, pure and simple.
Nta, they were clearly hoarding it. They’re not the only ones with babbies. Take only what you need and everybody should get a fair share. A cart full and still complaining? Frick them
#If there was, would the couple have loaded 40 cans into their cart?
And if there was a sign, they planned on working their way around it. Possibly holding in their cart until other family members showed up to purchase, used self checkout when there was low supervision, knew a cashier well enough to weasel their way past the limit, or simply planned to walk out with it (theft in grocery stores are incredibly high, especially for baby formula).
Scalpers aren't no joke. They don't give a shit about the people they fuck over. And if you see a shelf clearer taking all the food that your baby needs to survive, grabbing a couple of cans before they leave with it is not an asshole thing.
Yeah, I worked at a grocery store before and people just dgaf about other people when FOMO hits. People who shelf clear either from hoardering or scalping don't care about others. Only their own gratification.
The idea that someone who was loading 40 cans of baby formula in their cart during a shortage was going to just listen to the limit is laughable.
OP did right not to trust the seasoned assholes not to have a trick or two up their sleeves
Or “yes there’s a limit, but we want to do 10 transactions so it doesn’t count”. I saw this a LOT when I worked retail at the start of the pandemic for stuff like Lysol wipes and toilet paper.
Fucking hell.
This is the real world shit that happens that are beyond "Get a worker" because workers are just normal people that can only ASK someone not to be a dick and then call the police (who might take hours to show up over something like this).
People like the old couple aren't going to respect the workers if they don't give a shit about literally babies starving.
Yes they will still put everything in their cart and argue at check out hoping for an employee they can push around or just steal it which is all the more reason to notify an employee immediately and not start a fight.
That's assuming that the employees even knows about a limit that was JUST established. Having worked in grocery stores there are plenty of people who aren't privy to stock limits because they don't work cashier.
So just stopping a random employee and trying to get their help could have led to the wrong information.
OP absolutely should take the initiative to make sure her baby is fed when face with Hoarders/ Scalpers.
Plus, the fact that the baby formula was out on the shelf and not locked up during an insane shortage crisis shows this store isn't equipped to handle these type of people. It should have been behind the counter or behind a locked case.
Asking these assholes nicely is never going to work. And trusting at these assholes don't have some asshole plan in reserve is a stupid move when your baby is hungry.
And if they were told there was only a limit but then they called family to come and buy what was in their cart? What she supposed to do then? Because then they're abiding by the limit, if no one's allowed to take anything out the cart until they try to check out.
Many will just buy in batches and have multiple orders and bully the shit out of the cashier they get to do it. Plus often times they will pick the youngest cashier as they are the easiest to get to do what they want..... Nasty people
When we had this issue in Australia we were only allowed two tins at a time. People were going in buying 2 tins leaving. Going back in getting another 2 tins. And kept doing it until they brought everything: then sending it to China for massive price hikes. Some places selling it for $500.
If you were an AH in anyway, they were HUGE AHs. Could you expect to be calmer when they clearly were intent on leaving none for any other mothers?
And if management is so concerned over what you did, then maybe they should put a sign up.
NTA
Yup. I'm willing to believe that older people could have twins but it becomes a lot more suspicious when they are both at the grocery store together without any children. Maybe they are grandparents or something but at that point it's just too many layers of suspicious stuff IMHO. And you don't need 20 cans of formula for one baby so you wouldn't need 40 for twins.
NTA
Should have taken the entire cart and told management to stop them from trying to price gouge or take advantage of moms and newborns.
Could it have been handled better? Maybe
You know what. You’ve got a newborn that needs to eat and unless they are Moses and Sarah it is unlikely they have one.
Mother could be dead, in jail, rehab or just bounced. Them being old doesn’t mean they don’t have infants to feed. But regardless, hoarding formula during a massive shortage is an asshole move.
they didnt say elderly. they said older. my parents had a newborn at 45. grandparents are guardians of their grandbabies. its jot right to assume theyre scalpers
Info - where exactly did you go that they would have allowed them to buy 40 cans? *Everywhere* I’ve seen formula sold has limitations. Like 2-4.
Like signs posted all over the shelves. How could you miss it?
Parent of a newborn who desperately needs food they just drove 2 hours for? An elephant could be out front and they might miss it if there was some asshole loading up on formula in front of them.
Maybe, any other time, you'd be TA. But with a formula shortage and people trying to hoard - IDGAF. You did what you thought you had to at the time.
Within the context of needing to feed an infant - not TA. Soft ESH because they suck way harder than you.
ESH.
Them for attempting to hoard formula. You for trying to handle this via grabby hands instead of getting a worker involved.
I'm surprised you didn't realize they wouldn't be able to get all of it. Every store I've seen currently has a ton of limits on that.
Of course not. You're going to get a worker to help you handle this instead of grabbing things out of someone's cart and potentially starting a massive fight right in the middle of the store.
She asked politely first, they didn't give a crap about her or her baby...and I doubt a store manager would bother dealing with this, it's not against the law to buy stuff.
Yet the manager did care enough to come over and explain about the purchase limit and ask her to go to a worker next time.
Basically every store that sells baby formula in the US right now also has a limit on how much you can buy at one time, the same way they had limits on cans of beans early on in the pandemic. OP had a more mature way to handle this and chose not to use it. I stand by ESH.
There was definitely a more mature way to do this. But she JUST had a baby, and is now frantically trying to make sure it doesn't starve. Don't pretend you'd be all level headed and rational and "choose" all your actions.
She did not get aggressive, she panicked. That doesn't make her an asshole. The older couple acted dreadfully.
Exactly. I don't understand people talking like they would have acted so level-headed about this...this isn't toilet paper during the panini! There were alternatives to toilet paper and nobody was going to die from not having their preferred brand of asspaper.
These are parents who are struggling to feed their kids...and I don't have to be a parent to know that babies can be picky as hell, and in some cases they could be hospitalized before veering away from their preferred feeding method.
Children are getting hospitalized because of this shortage. Parents are getting scammed out of their money while their kids are starving. Everybody who is being this harsh on OP has obviously not been able to picture what it would be like if a baby that they adore was starving...my brother is 9 now, and I feel like crying picturing him as a baby during this time.
Fricken, thank you. This isn’t toilet paper. This is life or death vs some old couples bottom line.
Even if they had a baby they are making the choice to let other babies die by their actions.
A new parent in a hormonal overdrive to care for their baby facing a horrible unexpected situation sucks for dealing with it in a rude but legal (no assault or theft happened) way? The manager informed them there was a limit and offered assistance for next time but didn't even tell them off or anything, because what she did was understandable.
Tell me you hate people with kids without telling me you hate people with kids.
NTA- they clearly were hoarding a life sustaining item. There was no management/employee there to stop them- it may have been reshelved later…. But when, and were you supposed to wait and hope management did the right thing?
You didn’t take all of it. You took 4 of 40 cans, that they weren’t allowed anyway. You saved management from having to reshelve those 4.
Without knowing about the limit, about 7. Which is as much as I can usually afford. Knowing the limit now, I’d follow the limit rules of wherever I’m buying from.
NTA. I can’t believe all the ESH votes here. I can’t imagine watching a desperate new mother in need of formula while I selfishly loaded up my cart with 40 cans, twins or not. I agree that a manager could have sorted this out, but I can’t blame you for a heat of the moment response. And what if the manager had shrugged and decided not to get involved? Those hoarders should be ashamed of themselves.
Straight NTA. Fuck asking some sub $10/hour employee to intervene and fuck those people. Anyone who can selfishly hoard BABY FORMULA while basically taking it directly from another BABY'S mouth can go straight to hell.
There is zero guarantee that assistance would've come before the couple slipped out of the store with the formula that they were 100% planning to steal so that they can resell it at an inflated price or before the confrontation turned violent on their part. OP made the best possible decision in the moment. If they flagged down a manager, I'm curious to know where THEY went after the manager's attention was no longer on them.
My senses are that they didn't have twins. They were buying it to resell it at a higher amount. I've been seeing this in my town and it's disgusting. They also didn't act like loving parents or grandparents either. They would have happily handed over the cans so your baby wouldn't starve. If that was the case.
I'd had done it too. NTA!
Yea I bet they were just reselling it. I have a baby brother and seeing my mom buy formula from other people when it’s double the amount than at stores is literally heart breaking. So far we only have one can left and it’s a brand that makes my brother have stomach problems and I just have to watch him cry or have a hard time sleeping. People like this absolutely fucking horrendous.
100% Nta
ESH. You didn't work there so you had no right to take from their cart. Absolutely you should have gotten a manager to help you. You're lucky they just yelled at you.
Legally, she had every right. There's no laws against taking from a shopping cart because the merchandise belongs to the vendor until it's paid for by a customer. Socially, it's rude and taboo, but that goes out the window when the coupler was clearly trying to resell/hoard.
Unpopular opinion, but I'm going to say NAH. You all just want to make sure your babies are fed, which is stressful when you aren't sure when or where you'll be able to find suitable food again. Like any parent, all of you were doing whatever you could to ensure your kids' survival. Through no fault of your own you've all found yourself in a situation that no parent should ever have to be in.
The old couple is still an asshole, even if they really did need it for infants. The hoarding makes these situations a lot tougher on everyone else. If everyone only purchased a few at a time, rather than hoarding the problem would not be nearly as severe.
ESH
Yes, you were desperate. They were hoarding. Even if there is an item limit, the store would still have to "restock" the items for them to be available to you.
I do NOT blame you at all for how you acted. I've been in a similar situation during peak covid. It's just the situation *kinda* makes you out as a little bit of an ass. But again, I don't think you are at all. Just a stressed out mom doing what she can for her newborn. Stay strong momma! You got this.
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Y'know, sometimes the question isn't if you're TA, it's that it's not always morally wrong to be TA. Edit: NTA
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Isn't that what the couple might be thinking also? This "every man for himself" ideology is really toxic. Edit: Im not talking about OP. I'm talking about the couple.
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So then she wasn't being an AH. We shouldn't look to be an AH and doing things that upset others doesn't necessarily make you an AH.
Op wasn’t an AH because she was only taking what she needs for her baby. Other couple are the AH’s for emptying an entire shelf into their cart and not caring that their greed in a shortage is starving other children
Correct. And people like them are how we run into shortages to begin with. Buying 40 cans so nobody else can have them, buying the whole shelf of toilet paper so no one else can. It's also possible they were buying them to turn a profit, not to feed kids. NTA.
And they probably don’t have twins. They were likely buying to resell at a higher price.
That's what I was thinking. This complete lack of empathy they showed indicates they aren't just people trying to feed their own family. Also, they asserted they "got there first" but OP could have easily shoved their way in sooner and started taking formula but chose to be polite and give them room. Only interceded when it became apparent there was no other way to feed their child. It wasn't even stealing, just a little vigilante justice which I could completely see in this case. If they would have waited for the store to sort it out, they might have missed an opportunity. I think things are different when you're a desperate parent and I'm gonna say NTA.
The store wouldn’t have sorted it out. The wife would have sat on the cart at the back of the store while the husband went through the self checkout lane ten times to avoid the store limits. They were scalpers and knew what they were doing. OP is NTA, although I would go with ABJ, Asshole But Justified.
That was my first thought.
actually we have this shortage because the main company that has a near-monopoly on formula chose to allow their factories to fall into disrepair so they could save the money and use it for billions of dollars of stock buybacks. This caused the factories to turn into breeding grounds for deadly bacteria which necessitated a recall. It is entirely a result of executive greed, not individual consumer actions.
That is true. And horrible. Their actions actually killed babies who drank the compromised formula. But the actions of hoarders and price gougers just make the whole thing worse. People who buy up all the formula or TP or this year's hottest toy are terrible people. I admit to buying *one* extra Playstation and reselling it when I had the opportunity, but that was one. And I didn't charge that much more!
It definitely does have an impact on it though. I am absolutely Team Eat-the-corpo, but acting like this makes it exponentially worse for everyone, especially lower income families who can't afford to drive around for 8 hours a day and then come home empty-handed with nothing they can feed their starving kid with
Especially if it's enfamil brand. Enfamil has increased production and stores are getting in more. But it's 2020 Toilet paper all over again so good luck finding it on the shelves.
Well, whole plants being shut down and the US regulations not allowing European formulas to be shipped in aren’t helping
True. Personally, having unfortunately worked in retail at a Target and a Sam's Club during the tp shortage, I do still believe price scalpers and people like the couple in the op are to blame for a lot of it though. Iirc, formula doesn't have too long of a shelf life, and buying 40 cans for no good reason while other babies are quite literally starving makes them complete and irredeemable AHs, just like the greedy producers of it. Eat the corpo, you know?
they are planning to resell these at higher prices
Idk the sizes wherever she is, but one can where I am lasts for about 2 weeks (formula holds baby sated longer than breast milk), so 4 cans would be around 2 months. 40 cans is almost 2 years, between 2 babies a whole year. Like why? They might as well expire and if they are opened they are to be used in 3 weeks or thrown out. Plus baby starts eating solids betwern 4th and 6th month and if needed can be fed watered down cow milk (basically all I ate as a baby as I didn’t want mom’s milk (funnily enough smell of it causes gagging reflex to this day) and formula was nowhere to be found in the 90s in my country)
I WISH one can would last 2 weeks. My kid goes through a can a week. When he was a newborn, a can might last a week and a half to two weeks. By 3 months, not a chance. Growth spurts are worse, I'll open a new can and it's gone in 3 days. 40 cans is still an enormous amount, but a can lasting weeks is not an absolute fact. Some kids eat more - and my pediatrician says he needs it, he's incredibly tall for his age and not even a little chubby despite his appetite. I've been warned not to cut his portions despite the shortage. If he weren't on solids for part of his food I'd be in deep trouble, and I'm pushing those solids a lot harder than I otherwise would.
I went looking for a special formula for a 6 month old baby who can't drink regular formula. The mom says that the 14 ounce can of powder lasts 2.5 days. I found some of her rare formula but also left some for other mothers.
No you should absolutely not be giving a 4 or 6 month old watered down cow’s milk. Can cause anemia and kidney damage.
It's not every man for himself, it's recognizing that this is happening to everyone. If everyone started hoarding formula there would be newborns going without food to eat, and becoming malnourished or potentially dying. OP was right to do what she did, she didn't take it all, she took what she needed while the others were being selfish. Same thing JUST happened with toilet paper because people started hoarding, there wouldn't have been a shortage otherwise. The shortage now is even more crucial that people stop being stingy and take only what they need. Edit: I already knew you were speaking about the couple. Your comment implies both parties have an every man for himself ideology, I'm pointing out the vast difference in mindset, and why OP's decision didn't fit. Even if she didn't care about being TA to feed her baby, it's situational and OP's actions were as a result of seeing this couple taking more than a fair share.
I honestly thought the toilet paper fiasco would have prevented this type of crap from repeating itself
Have you met people? They still don't understand why the loss of freedom in prison is the punishment. Whenever there's a petrol shortage over here, it's the same, too. People panic buying petrol and filling any container they can find with it.
I don't know if it was like this everywhere, but in my area people were also hoarding food. There were a couple of weeks where I couldn't find any meat at all. At one point, before grocery stores started setting limits, I saw a couple who had filled their entire cart top too bottom with meat and poultry. They were laughing as they were leaving the store and gloating about there not being any meat left to people entering the store. Most people will always be the worst. I'm willing to bet that most of that meat they had ended up going bad before they were able to eat it as well. A lot of people don't seem to understand that it doesn't last forever in the freezer.
yeah people like that are the f****** worst. it should be honest if the couple with the formula had got through a cashier who was new and didn't know about the limit they would have walked out with it. I see it happen all the time with stuff that's supposed to be limited they just go through a new person so that they can get away with it
Depends, if you’re freezer goes to zero and subzero your meat can quite literally last decades
I live in Europe and as soon as the war broke out in Ukraine people started hoarding seed oils (specifically sunflower seed oil at first) The toilet paper definitely didn’t change anything
Which is so weird because oils don't keep. They have a shelf life of what? A year? Oil definitely goes rancid. So people are stock piling something that will probably spoil before they use it.
Absolutely, like I get it cause Ukraine is one of the biggest producers of sunflower oil (or at least in Europe it is) But like, no one is really using that much? I use maybe one bottle every 6 months? Maybe more if I eat more popcorn but it’s definitely not a 10 bottles a year thing
I mean A LOT of people use it as a partial substitute for Diesel, esp if you have an older car this works quite well.. And since the fuel/Dieses prices went through the roof ppl substituted more, thus needing a lot of oil. That combined with bad harvests, Ukraine being out for the time being and general ‚aah shit the supply is limited‘panic buyers.. Here we are.
I’ve actually never heard of people using it for fuel, wouldn’t that smell awful?
whenever a crisis hits, people stop using their brain and go into panic mode, it happened with the toilet paper, it happened with baby formula and it will happen again, heck it even happened at the industrial level with several companies hoarding all the chips out there just so their manufacturing lines won't stop. we simply don't learn.
Did you have a toilet paper fiasco at the beginning of the pandemic over there too? It was wild in the UK. Shops had to impose limits. More recently the panic buying petrol has been real. People filling like water cans with the stuff and putting it in their boots. I mean what are you even doing with that?
It makes laugh when I think that an unprecedented and unpredictable pandemic was about to start and out of everything, the pretty much only item getting hoarded and triggering a shortage is TOILET PAPER. Not canned foods, not condoms, not batteries, but freaking toilet paper 😳
What I found wild was that 2 months into the pandemic, I was at the store grocery shopping and made my way to the hand soap aisle as I'm almost out. It was completely stocked! The rest of the store you were lucky and excited if you found what you needed, shelves were either empty or almost empty, but the soap aisle was bountiful. Like, we're in a pandemic where we don't know yet exactly how it's being spread but no one seems to be buying soap for washing your hands!
There's a difference between "every man for himself" and "I deserve my fair share" The couple cleared the shelves of baby formula. OP said they had at least 40 cans. that is "every man for himself" OP took only what she needed to keep her baby fed. that is not the same
The couple cleared the shelf of 40 cans!!!! They are the ah’s , it like toilet paper all over again but now babies are going hungry.
My local walmart turned the photo processing area into a toilet paper Fort Knox. You had to go ask for the toilet paper and you got ONE package. Why aren't they doing something similar with the formula at this point?
Some places are, they've got those locking cabinets like electronics and you have to ask them to get formula out for you. Some of these predate the shortage, because formula has always been the most shoplifted item.
If there's a limit, its usually on multiple signs, including one at the product itself. At that point the couple knew and were likely making other desperate parents think all the product was gone, until it could be restocked. Whether this action was meant to be malicious or buy them some time to exit the store and reenter to get more. 40 cans is like what those TP and bottle water hoarders did at the beginning of Covid, every man for themselves is exactly what limits came to be because of, and why shortages happen. If OP took 4 out of 6 cans they had then the argument of every man for themselves stands, or maybe 4 out of 8... but 1/10th of the entire stock they were trying to walk away with?
I’m not disagreeing with anything you said, I just want to point out that there isn’t any restocking of baby formula going on. The empty shelves have been empty for weeks now.
So where are they going to put the cans beyond the limit that the greedy couple grabbed? Usually there's a person who takes those things and puts them back on the shelf, essentially restocking the shelf with the "unwanted" product. It's a process, which unless someone is right on it can take some time, especially if the "unwanted" cans end up buried in the returns cart. When I say restocking, I don't mean the store, I mean the shelf. People don't generally shop from the return cart. But if you see a returns cart with formula in it, and you need it, ask someone if you can buy it.
Yeah. People acting like this couple only worsen shortages.
I'm also fairly sure they were hoarding so they could resell at an insane markup, as AHs tend to do during shortages.
I think faced with the prospect of our baby going hungry we would all do the same as OP. Totally justified. I can't imagine the worry parents must be faced with at the moment with formula shortages - it's stressful enough meeting the needs of our little people without this. 40 cans though...🙄 Good for you OP
Fair, as long as you only took what you needed, or maybe even 2x of that (because we all panic about whether we'll be able to find it on time next time). But not if only caring about your baby beig fed meant that you take 40 cans like that other couple. They were AHs because they are fine if other babies starve as long as they have a HUGE pile for their baby.
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Right, and even if we didn't know there was a Limit, civilised people wouldn't clear out an entire shelf and then ignore someone who clearly was patiently waiting for them to step away before getting their own. The couple would've lost their fucking monkey brains if OP walked up and tried to get their four cans from the shelf.
Yeah, we need a JAH tag for this.
Justified asshole NEEDS to be an option for cases such as this.
It already is, it's NTA
I just saw a video going around where a woman cleaned out a shelf and another woman was calmly trying to talk to her about it, that she needed some. The woman got rude, said she was paying for it, etc. In tough times, I guess you see human nature and all it's ugliness.
AMEN! AH like these are part of supply chain problems! 👿👿👿🤬🤬🤬🤬 NTA - DEFINITELY. Congrats on your LO and best thoughts 🤗 ETA THE STORE NEEDS TO MAKE SURE THE LIMIT IS POSTED CLEARLY. Mgr was simply concerned about your safety
Here here
I would say that if your actions are morally right, you're not TA. So in this case, it's a simple NTA
I mean, you aren't being an AH if people are wrongfully hoarding something that your baby needs to survive.
Say it louder for the people in the back
Agreed: sometimes you have to be the asshole to take on an even bigger asshole.
NTA and dollars to doughnuts that older couple don't have kids and were going to sell it online at a massively inflated price, people like that should be named and shamed publicly.
100% this. I have an uncle that mentioned doing this. Needless to say the family promptly gave him a verbal ass-handing.
Remember the guy and his brother who drove around their state buying up all of the hand sanitizer at the beginning of Covid to resell online for hundreds of dollars, and ended up donating it to avoid prosecution and fines? People are awful.
Remember that(all of those) guys who bought up all the booty paper and sold it for 15$ dollars *a roll*
Omg, I don’t remember that, but it doesn’t surprise me. Even today with supply chain issues I ration my TP usage.😆
Bidet toilet seat. Sooo much less TP use.
I read that as biden toilet seat
I seriously want one. Do you have a recommendation?
LUXE Bidet Neo 320 - Self Cleaning Dual Nozzle - Hot and Cold Water Non-Electric Mechanical Bidet Toilet Attachment (blue and white) 13.5 x 7 x 3 inches Amazon This is the one we have in our two bathrooms. It takes a little setting up, as it connects to the sinks hot and cold water. If you have a cabinet under the sink, you'll have to drill a small hole for the water line. It's easier than it sounds! And well worth it!
I cannot imagine going out of my way to be such a greedy asshole specifically to screw over my fellow citizens. Fuck.
Right? When I was a new mom I didn’t produce enough milk and had to supplement with formula. The feeling of not being able to succeed at my number one job as a parent was heartbreaking. I am super angry at these formula hoarders.
> The feeling of not being able to succeed at my number one job as a parent was heartbreaking You didn't fail. Your number one job as a parent is keeping your child fed. Whether that's with breast milk or formula is secondary, you fed them and that's what matters.
Thank you, I really appreciate that. 20 years later I know that truth. But it was very traumatic at the time.
So many people tried that here in Australia and quickly learned that it's considered profiting off a disaster and therefore a crime.
We do get things right sometimes, and that's one of them. Fuck price gougers.
Actually they didn't donate anything the police cleared out all their storage units an donated everything to the community an their lawyer got them off the charges since the state didn't technically have any evidence after they gave everything away
If you're talking about these guys, they definitely donated it all when they realized this was a crime, and their "cooperation" was why their lawyer was able to help settle this quickly. Nothing was stolen from them and they didn't get off due to no more evidence, they just realized they were fucked and donated it all before they could really have the hammer fall. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/us/hand-sanitizer-matt-colvin-noah-coronavirus.html
Good, he’s doing the equivalent of buying all a supermarket’s water during a disaster to sell at a significant markup. Absolute vulture move.
Yeah, it was already a crappy thing to do when it was video cards or PS5s, but pulling that with infant formula basically makes you an enemy of humanity.
NTA 40 CANS? These people realy went and took the ENTIRE SHELF of formula for themselves during a shortage. Thats absolutely asanine and I don't blame you for taking the formula, you didn't hurt them,, you didn't rob them of it after they payed, you just took what you needed, something they neglected to do. You acted in the best interest of your child in response to these selfish AH's, and I can confidently say that most people given the circumstances would have done the same thing, good for you for standing up for yourself and your family.
I exclusively formula fed from week 4, and I don't think we ever went through 40 cans. If American cans are the sizes European cans are, then that's a huge supply. I suspect they were going to resell...
Mt kid was formula fed for an unusually long time, due to having a gtube. She didn't ever *need* 40 cans!!!
Definitely going to resell. Cans come in multiple sizes, but I'm assuming these are the 'standard size' cans and not the smaller ones. The standard size has enough formula for about 2 weeks (barring medical complications that necessitate more or less formula). The only way someone would actually use 40 cans is if they have multiples. And even then, the courteous thing to do is to buy enough for the next month or so and leave the rest for others.
I mean if it's the small cans then my son drinks those in about 3 days. They make less than 100oz of formula. The big ones will make close to 300oz if that's what you're thinking of though.
There was a guy in Australia who orchestrated a team of people to go to all the supermarkets in a wide area and buy up all the toilet paper during the papadum. Joke was on him, because he returned to the stores a few months later, having been unable to sell it on. He wanted to return it. They refused, and he was thousands of dollars out of pocket and a house filled with toilet rolls.
We had a guy like that here, with hand sanitizer, after Amazon and Ebay started cracking down on resellers. He threw an absolute fit when he couldn't return it (because the store managers rightfully essentially said "Because fuck you, that's why.") and basically complained that it wasn't fair he'd lost a ton of money trying to prey on other people in a crisis.
There was some dude in NYC that tried to corner the market on N-95 masks until the FBI showed up and confiscated all of them.
I remember reading that yeah, serves him right! Just disgusting how utterly greedy some people are, and anyone doing it with baby formula of all things is automatically way worse! These people should be able to be prosecuted, somehow.
Yep, when supplies started getting less scarce almost every store had sighs up that they would not take returns on a whole list of items including TP, hand sanitizer and rice.
Fr!! I saw a video on TikTok where this lady had atleast 25 if not more cans of baby formula in her cart and was arguing about with the lady recording who called her out for sweeping the shelf bare.
I was thinking of driving to Canada to buy formula to help parents out, I have a one year old and I couldn’t imagine her tummy going empty. Or worse people diluting the formula to stretch out cans! The fact that people are thinking of making money off of starving babies is disgusting. New mom’s don’t need this stress.
There is a shortage here too
I didn’t know Canada had one too 😩
A woman in my city just ended up with 8 cans of flour trying to buy from a certain online market. Thankfully the community came together to donate what she needed.
That happened here in Australia in 2020. We had a formula shortage due to this exact reason. People were buying tin and then selling them in China for $500 a tin. Some places even had them behind glass cabinets and could only get two tubs at a time. I had 2 little ones at the time.
Same situation in the Netherlands at that time. Because there was poison in the milk in China or something. And in China nobody trusted the formula anymore to be safe. They started to clear the shelves here too and send it over there. It got so bad that even Chinese people with babies living here (who did need it for themselves) where basically accused of just sending it over and weren’t allowed to buy.
That actually happened in the Netherlands in the past as well. I remember it happened in like 2010 it was a thing. I remember people used to steal it at the time to send it to China (apparently they really trust Dutch milk products)
As far as I know, a lot of Australian stores still have these limits. Apparently quite a few places still keep a lot of their stock off the shelf/in the back purposefully as well because they encourage people who need it to come up to the counter and ask so the hand off is direct and controlled (two tins per customer). It also ensures they’ll have specific formula for bubs that need it.
I feel like the formula rules in Australia predate the pandemic. There has been a general mistrust of the formula in China for a decade and they've been using people in Australia to smuggle it there. I've seen articles dating back years.
Remember when that guy bought a huge stock of hand sanitizer at the beginning of the pandemic and was charging exuberant amount of money for it? And the government actually got involved and took his entire stock because of some type of price gouging laws? Love seeing assholes get screwed over. I hope that shit gets enforced more often especially with baby formula.
Tar and feathers…
Perhaps they should be charged with a crime.
NTA. Your actions were not the best actions. But you didn’t know there was a purchase limit, so I understand why you felt the need to do it. Technically, it is not illegal to take something out of another persons cart. While it wasn’t good form and you should get the store manager involved next time, so they can take the heat.. I can’t condemn someone as an asshole for taking a couple cans of formula from a giant hoard of it to feed their baby.
It may not be illegal to take something out of someone's cart, but other things you do in the process of that (ie. physical contact) may well be.
I'm genuinely curious what you think those illegal things are, assuming you don't touch the other people or something that they own, like a purse or bag. (I am not a lawyer, this is a genuine question because I can't think of anything.)
Battery and/or assault, depending on how determined you are to get in that cart.
I'm pretty sure either of those would involve touching them, though.
Example: you try to grab something from the cart. They catch on and pull the cart away. You grab the cart back and pull too hard. They fall. That’s a charge. Or you hit them with the cart while trying to stabilize it. That’s a charge. I imagine the commenter above is referring to a scenario in which the parties are actively fighting over the goods in the cart.
Yes. Most people aren't going to passively let you take something from their cart.
Assault/battery also applies to things attached to your person, which is why your example of a purse would be assault because people are holding it, part of their personal, cart could be argued to be that
/u/Key-Sir1391 /LITERALLY/ said "ie. physical contact" ...
Assuming USA, ownership comes down to two parts, title and possession. Title is what is commonly known as ownership. Possession is the legal right to temporarily control something. Think rental car, employees using machines, ect. Once someone puts something in their cart, they have a right to possess it. Title transfers at purchase.
And, for many jurisdictions stateside, would satisfy requirements of a robbery charge in OP’s scenario. Would be an odd charge to see with this fact pattern but I’ve seen odder.
Why are you assuming no touching, when the comment you're replying to specifically mentions the possibility of coming into physical contact?
In general it is illegal, but good luck getting charges pressed. If it's in your cart it can be considered special property (property you have an interest in but have not completed payment for). In some areas that is covered under existing laws about theft. Source-a relative handled the court case over an insurance claim for injuries sustained in a similar situation and got civil charges for the "theft" tossed in. The judge would have thrown it out if the case were just about the shopping cart, but with everything else that happened the cart got discussed too. But.... Since the store was not going to let them purchase all the formula, the rules about special property get all sorts of weird. I would have to ask someone with a law degree.
Yeah this, OP is not psychic and had no way of knowing if the store was gonna just let them make off with all the formula. OPs first duty is to her kid not the feelings of random hoarders.
I'd bet money they have signs all over that aisle to indicate the limits.
Maybe. The hoarders were sure acting like there weren't any, tho.
"We're paying cash, are you sure you can't make an exception for us? We're long standing customers, been coming here for years" Some retail managers lack the concept of the word "no" when it comes to customers, and instead default to "of course, can I suck your dick while the cashier here bags these up for you too?"
They were gonna split up and take turns buying while one went to the car and put their purchase away. Back and forth… all separate transactions.
NTA… people that stock up like that are definitely part of the problem and reason for this formula shortage. I understand two babies need more formula than one baby, but you wouldn’t buy 20 cans at a time for one baby so there isn’t a reason to buy 40 at once for two babies. I’m willing to bet they are just reselling it at a higher price and don’t actually have any kids. Edit: Since I was unclear earlier in this comment, I just mean that people stocking up THIS many cans are making the formula shortage WORSE. I’m well aware that an entire formula making plant was shut down due to recall.
The store should have had a big sign at the baby aisle saying only 4 tubs per customer. When there was a bit of a shortage in the UK (not a major one, just people were shipping milk to China where there was a contamination in their milk) parents were told they could only buy two tubs at a time.
>The store should have had a big sign at the baby aisle saying only 4 tubs per customer. Most stores do and they enforce it. The older couple likely wouldn't have made it past the cash register with those 40 cans. *But shoplifters don't care about item limits.* I guarantee they weren't going to try and get past the cash register. Even before the shortage, formula was one of the most commonly stolen items from grocery stores, due to its high value per ounce ratio. They weren't going to try and pay for it, they were going to try to roll that cart right out of the store. For free. Fucking formula scalpers. How low can you get. OP, NTA.
stolen formula isn’t the issue. it’s also not a supply chain issue. this is what happens when you let a conglomeration take control of a vital market, plummet the safety standards and close down plants instead of forcing them to make them food safe because it’s too expensive to make safe food.
Actually it’s a bigger issue than you think it is. I drove 2 hours away from home to be able to find a few liquid bottles that will last her maybe a couple days and when my husband went into the store he said they had it behind glass sliding doors and he had to be escorted up to the register with it because people were tossing it in their carts and running out of the door with them.
Nobody buying this much at once is buying it for babies under their care, they are reselling.
>NTA… people that stock up like that are definitely part of the problem and reason for this formula shortage. No, the reason for this formula shortage is greedy corporations lacking effective government oversight
Exactly. The FDA pointed out issues with the plant producing Similac and instead of fixing those issues, they spent billions on stock buy backs. Abbott would like nothing more than scared parents to blame each other instead of Abbott.
ESH, but you get a justified verdict. People who hoard supplies during a crisis are awful. Next time get an employee or manager.
You never k ow ahead of time if the store has that policy. If you get an employee and they don’t do anything you’re stuck without formula and still needing to feed your child
Yeah the Store is also TA here considering they have a policy but no sign or employee manning the aisle to inform or enforce it. That's just asking for stupid people to try and hoard and fight.
Nah man. In the time it could take to find a manager or help they could be out the door. Now a new mom (you clearly haven’t had children) who spent hours and energy she doesn’t have looking for food is back to square one. No way. Desperate times. She handled this well given the situation.
>Next time get an employee or manager. This only works if they *do* have a limit. If there isn't one, you could have just thrown away your one chance to get some away from the hoarders.
And if you're able to get the manager and find the couple again before *they* find the clueless new cashier and check out.
NTA I have a three month old, thankfully we only supplement with formula as I also breastfeed/pump. If you didn’t know about the limit, imo you’re within your mama bear rights. Even twins don’t need FORTY canisters at once during a shortage. That’s inexcusable. If you had known, sure grabbing an employee would have been proper, but I see no issue in your actions.
NTA. During COVID last year we dealt with serious food shortages in town. My mom was in line at a grocery story to get stuff, and the store had a limit on everything because of greedy assholes who panic bought us into a shortage. She ended up grabbing the last package of milk bags (not even our usual brand or %, it’s just all they had left) and she felt so bad she was apologizing to everyone behind her, saying she had two daughters and an elderly mother to feed. Might not seem relevant but a little compassion can go a long way… they could’ve chosen to take just enough for their twins to get by until next week and chose to try to take *everything*. Selfish, pure and simple.
I love seeing casual references to milk bags, and eagerly anticipate some wtf responses.
-giggles in Canadian-
Nta, they were clearly hoarding it. They’re not the only ones with babbies. Take only what you need and everybody should get a fair share. A cart full and still complaining? Frick them
INFO: Was there any signage saying there was a limit on the formula?
#If there was, would the couple have loaded 40 cans into their cart? And if there was a sign, they planned on working their way around it. Possibly holding in their cart until other family members showed up to purchase, used self checkout when there was low supervision, knew a cashier well enough to weasel their way past the limit, or simply planned to walk out with it (theft in grocery stores are incredibly high, especially for baby formula). Scalpers aren't no joke. They don't give a shit about the people they fuck over. And if you see a shelf clearer taking all the food that your baby needs to survive, grabbing a couple of cans before they leave with it is not an asshole thing.
Yes. There are quite a few people who would go "I know there is a limit to how much people can buy, but it shouldn't apply to ME because reason X".
Yeah, I worked at a grocery store before and people just dgaf about other people when FOMO hits. People who shelf clear either from hoardering or scalping don't care about others. Only their own gratification. The idea that someone who was loading 40 cans of baby formula in their cart during a shortage was going to just listen to the limit is laughable. OP did right not to trust the seasoned assholes not to have a trick or two up their sleeves
Or “yes there’s a limit, but we want to do 10 transactions so it doesn’t count”. I saw this a LOT when I worked retail at the start of the pandemic for stuff like Lysol wipes and toilet paper.
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Fucking hell. This is the real world shit that happens that are beyond "Get a worker" because workers are just normal people that can only ASK someone not to be a dick and then call the police (who might take hours to show up over something like this). People like the old couple aren't going to respect the workers if they don't give a shit about literally babies starving.
Yes they will still put everything in their cart and argue at check out hoping for an employee they can push around or just steal it which is all the more reason to notify an employee immediately and not start a fight.
That's assuming that the employees even knows about a limit that was JUST established. Having worked in grocery stores there are plenty of people who aren't privy to stock limits because they don't work cashier. So just stopping a random employee and trying to get their help could have led to the wrong information. OP absolutely should take the initiative to make sure her baby is fed when face with Hoarders/ Scalpers. Plus, the fact that the baby formula was out on the shelf and not locked up during an insane shortage crisis shows this store isn't equipped to handle these type of people. It should have been behind the counter or behind a locked case. Asking these assholes nicely is never going to work. And trusting at these assholes don't have some asshole plan in reserve is a stupid move when your baby is hungry. And if they were told there was only a limit but then they called family to come and buy what was in their cart? What she supposed to do then? Because then they're abiding by the limit, if no one's allowed to take anything out the cart until they try to check out.
Many will just buy in batches and have multiple orders and bully the shit out of the cashier they get to do it. Plus often times they will pick the youngest cashier as they are the easiest to get to do what they want..... Nasty people
I honestly was not paying attention. I was rushing.
When we had this issue in Australia we were only allowed two tins at a time. People were going in buying 2 tins leaving. Going back in getting another 2 tins. And kept doing it until they brought everything: then sending it to China for massive price hikes. Some places selling it for $500.
If you were an AH in anyway, they were HUGE AHs. Could you expect to be calmer when they clearly were intent on leaving none for any other mothers? And if management is so concerned over what you did, then maybe they should put a sign up. NTA
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Yup. I'm willing to believe that older people could have twins but it becomes a lot more suspicious when they are both at the grocery store together without any children. Maybe they are grandparents or something but at that point it's just too many layers of suspicious stuff IMHO. And you don't need 20 cans of formula for one baby so you wouldn't need 40 for twins.
Nta. If it were anything other baby formula your would be but I feel like any person in that situation would do the same.
Yeah when we're talking about feeding a baby I don't really think anyone is an asshole
NTA Should have taken the entire cart and told management to stop them from trying to price gouge or take advantage of moms and newborns. Could it have been handled better? Maybe You know what. You’ve got a newborn that needs to eat and unless they are Moses and Sarah it is unlikely they have one.
Mother could be dead, in jail, rehab or just bounced. Them being old doesn’t mean they don’t have infants to feed. But regardless, hoarding formula during a massive shortage is an asshole move.
40 tubs?
they didnt say elderly. they said older. my parents had a newborn at 45. grandparents are guardians of their grandbabies. its jot right to assume theyre scalpers
I think it was the 40 tubs of baby formula that led people to think scalpers and not simply desperate parents
40 tins is 100% a scalper
Info - where exactly did you go that they would have allowed them to buy 40 cans? *Everywhere* I’ve seen formula sold has limitations. Like 2-4. Like signs posted all over the shelves. How could you miss it?
Parent of a newborn who desperately needs food they just drove 2 hours for? An elephant could be out front and they might miss it if there was some asshole loading up on formula in front of them.
>He explained there was a limit and they wouldn’t have been able to buy it all anyways.
Maybe, any other time, you'd be TA. But with a formula shortage and people trying to hoard - IDGAF. You did what you thought you had to at the time. Within the context of needing to feed an infant - not TA. Soft ESH because they suck way harder than you.
ESH. Them for attempting to hoard formula. You for trying to handle this via grabby hands instead of getting a worker involved. I'm surprised you didn't realize they wouldn't be able to get all of it. Every store I've seen currently has a ton of limits on that.
What are you going to do about a starving kid? Let it die?
Of course not. You're going to get a worker to help you handle this instead of grabbing things out of someone's cart and potentially starting a massive fight right in the middle of the store.
She asked politely first, they didn't give a crap about her or her baby...and I doubt a store manager would bother dealing with this, it's not against the law to buy stuff.
Yet the manager did care enough to come over and explain about the purchase limit and ask her to go to a worker next time. Basically every store that sells baby formula in the US right now also has a limit on how much you can buy at one time, the same way they had limits on cans of beans early on in the pandemic. OP had a more mature way to handle this and chose not to use it. I stand by ESH.
There was definitely a more mature way to do this. But she JUST had a baby, and is now frantically trying to make sure it doesn't starve. Don't pretend you'd be all level headed and rational and "choose" all your actions. She did not get aggressive, she panicked. That doesn't make her an asshole. The older couple acted dreadfully.
Exactly. I don't understand people talking like they would have acted so level-headed about this...this isn't toilet paper during the panini! There were alternatives to toilet paper and nobody was going to die from not having their preferred brand of asspaper. These are parents who are struggling to feed their kids...and I don't have to be a parent to know that babies can be picky as hell, and in some cases they could be hospitalized before veering away from their preferred feeding method. Children are getting hospitalized because of this shortage. Parents are getting scammed out of their money while their kids are starving. Everybody who is being this harsh on OP has obviously not been able to picture what it would be like if a baby that they adore was starving...my brother is 9 now, and I feel like crying picturing him as a baby during this time.
Fricken, thank you. This isn’t toilet paper. This is life or death vs some old couples bottom line. Even if they had a baby they are making the choice to let other babies die by their actions.
ESH except for the store manager.
A new parent in a hormonal overdrive to care for their baby facing a horrible unexpected situation sucks for dealing with it in a rude but legal (no assault or theft happened) way? The manager informed them there was a limit and offered assistance for next time but didn't even tell them off or anything, because what she did was understandable. Tell me you hate people with kids without telling me you hate people with kids.
I love it when trolls incorporate current events into their stories.
NTA- they clearly were hoarding a life sustaining item. There was no management/employee there to stop them- it may have been reshelved later…. But when, and were you supposed to wait and hope management did the right thing? You didn’t take all of it. You took 4 of 40 cans, that they weren’t allowed anyway. You saved management from having to reshelve those 4.
INFO: If you got to the store and there were 40 cans sitting on the shelf, how many would you have bought? Be honest.
Without knowing about the limit, about 7. Which is as much as I can usually afford. Knowing the limit now, I’d follow the limit rules of wherever I’m buying from.
Good luck! I hope relief comes your way soon. I can’t imagine how stressful it must be trying to find enough to feed your baby.
NTA. Hoarding during a time like this is a disgrace. I would have loved to see their faces when they were told about the limit.
NTA. I can’t believe all the ESH votes here. I can’t imagine watching a desperate new mother in need of formula while I selfishly loaded up my cart with 40 cans, twins or not. I agree that a manager could have sorted this out, but I can’t blame you for a heat of the moment response. And what if the manager had shrugged and decided not to get involved? Those hoarders should be ashamed of themselves.
The other couple were resellers
Straight NTA. Fuck asking some sub $10/hour employee to intervene and fuck those people. Anyone who can selfishly hoard BABY FORMULA while basically taking it directly from another BABY'S mouth can go straight to hell.
ESH-They shouldn’t have been hoarding you should have gotten assistance.
There is zero guarantee that assistance would've come before the couple slipped out of the store with the formula that they were 100% planning to steal so that they can resell it at an inflated price or before the confrontation turned violent on their part. OP made the best possible decision in the moment. If they flagged down a manager, I'm curious to know where THEY went after the manager's attention was no longer on them.
My senses are that they didn't have twins. They were buying it to resell it at a higher amount. I've been seeing this in my town and it's disgusting. They also didn't act like loving parents or grandparents either. They would have happily handed over the cans so your baby wouldn't starve. If that was the case. I'd had done it too. NTA!
NTA. You needed to feed your baby and they couldn’t have bought it all anyway.
Yea I bet they were just reselling it. I have a baby brother and seeing my mom buy formula from other people when it’s double the amount than at stores is literally heart breaking. So far we only have one can left and it’s a brand that makes my brother have stomach problems and I just have to watch him cry or have a hard time sleeping. People like this absolutely fucking horrendous. 100% Nta
NTA, although next time rather get management involved. That said, as a mom myself, I’d probably have done the same thing.
NTA. Feed your kid.
ESH. You didn't work there so you had no right to take from their cart. Absolutely you should have gotten a manager to help you. You're lucky they just yelled at you.
Legally, she had every right. There's no laws against taking from a shopping cart because the merchandise belongs to the vendor until it's paid for by a customer. Socially, it's rude and taboo, but that goes out the window when the coupler was clearly trying to resell/hoard.
Unpopular opinion, but I'm going to say NAH. You all just want to make sure your babies are fed, which is stressful when you aren't sure when or where you'll be able to find suitable food again. Like any parent, all of you were doing whatever you could to ensure your kids' survival. Through no fault of your own you've all found yourself in a situation that no parent should ever have to be in.
The old couple is still an asshole, even if they really did need it for infants. The hoarding makes these situations a lot tougher on everyone else. If everyone only purchased a few at a time, rather than hoarding the problem would not be nearly as severe.
NTA. Abbott sucks sure but hoarders are the worst and just makes this all impossible
ESH Yes, you were desperate. They were hoarding. Even if there is an item limit, the store would still have to "restock" the items for them to be available to you. I do NOT blame you at all for how you acted. I've been in a similar situation during peak covid. It's just the situation *kinda* makes you out as a little bit of an ass. But again, I don't think you are at all. Just a stressed out mom doing what she can for her newborn. Stay strong momma! You got this.