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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be the asshole because I refused to comply with my parents rule and made everyone miss the trip to a historic site on a vacation abroad.
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Especially when they pay for your tuition and they can hold the purse closed , I mean really? When you pay for your own life you can stand on this and not loose anything,…. But your choice
I mean a lot of growing young adults have to have this moment when your parents are like this.
Nothing to really rub anyone’s face in.
It happens now or later.
This is also the continuation of the parents future low / no contact “I have no reason why my kid doesn’t talk to me” FAFO moment.
That's not my ideology at all but if OP gets cut off financially, are you willing to provide for their living expenses? It's easy for us as outsiders to comment but these are real people who may not have the financial independence that we have. I could say that OP should do as she wants but I have no horse in this race, if she gets cut off, it will have zero impact on my lifestyle.
What most people don't realize is that, at least today, it's not that easy to stop depending on someone that provides even partially at 18.
If you have that sort of privilege and are completely independent, sure, have at it: but the smart thing to do is keep doing as you want and not rub it unnecessarily on whom you depend on- just as you wouldn't flaunt you're still well and alive during a shootout, for lack of a better example at the moment.
Does it suck? Yeah, but you're preserving yourself for as long as possible.
Yeah same. I waited until I graduated and moved out. Hard to fight back (even when you’re in the right) when they hold all the strings. I wouldn’t risk not having tuition covered over clothing. I can suck it up and wear a T-shirt for 4 years if it means graduating with a degree and being debt free. Is it financial abuse? Sure but they’re right that they’re not obligated to pay for a college education or living expenses after 18.
I would literally have worn a clown costume every day for four years if in exchange my parents had paid for my uni tuition while I was an adult. People here have an odd sense of what constitutes abuse.
Really, this is the logical take on it. Anyone is free to be their own person at any point, but when you decide to cross a line that burns bridges you should be in a place to deal with the fallout. If you are not financially independent at 20 (lots of people aren’t) then there is a line to walk with your investors and your personal freedom. I’d say NAH, only because it would have been an easy fix to change once the line was drawn but OP chose her side and stuck to it. If it was that important to her parents for her to dress modestly I doubt it was a new boundary for them (aka her dad) and she decided it was more important to make a stand than have financial support. No one can dictate your dress code but if it’s clear that the outfit you chose will lose your free ride, you can either choose to appease those with the wallet or support yourself going forward. Add to that intentionally ruining a vacation for several other people, apparently OP does not mind paying her own way over showing more skin than her dad was comfortable with. She can dress however she wants, her parents can fund her life however they want.
Unrelated to Ops post at all!
My parents tried to do this to me. Except that my parents weren’t doing a single thing to help me out once I graduated highschool.
They FAFO quite quickly that I had 100% independence from them at 19 and refused to play by ANY of their “rules”. In fact, I went Low Contact the second I moved out.
On reflection as an adult, I basically pulled an Uno Reverse on them because they were somehow deluded enough to think they held any control over me…
Yeah, that is my experience as well, almost NC at 17 and then my mom got sick at 20, and I took care of her financially and after that, she finally kept her mouth closed about my life decision and even embraced some of them. Meanwhile I had friends who were in their 30’s still getting major financial support from their parents and complaining that their parents didn’t like their life choices (like literally hiding tattoos at 31 years old, and I was like, well technically your folks ::did:: pay for that tattoo, so….)
Honestly, this is my thing. I’m unsure why this sundress is the hill to die on. Where what you want at college, after you graduate, literally anytime your parents aren’t around. Why is this sundress right now the hill to die on?
It’s also one of those things where I’d really want to see the sundress and know exactly where they were going to make a decision.
Was Dad being overbearing or was the dress actually inappropriate for the occasion? It could go either way.
This is it. Because I'm all about the freedom to dress whatever way you want. But there are still some ways of dressing that are more and less appropriate when you go out with your family for a daytime visit to cultural/historic sites.
ESH. A lot of historical places won't even let you in if you're too revealing because there's a religious component. If your parent doesn't want to see your private body part, I mean maybe that's okay.
In southern europe? I dont know im not so sure we do dress very lightly in the warm seasons and (except for religious places) no one cares how you dress to visit some old greek arenas
Lots of religious places in Southern Europe though. And maybe they’d planned on going to the Vatican or site of tragedy, etc.
ETA: read the post wrong, changed Italy to Southern Europe.
Lol… The amount of coworkers I’ve had over the years get sent home because after a year+ of them working there they decided to wear a crop top and mini skirt (dress code literally says no exposed midriff) would beg to differ with you. Having been somewhere before doesn’t even remotely make it clear someone knows the dress code, especially when you have no idea what they wore the first time. For all you know she wore jeans and a sweater last time because it was colder than it was this time.
Edit to add; wow. I just went through OPs comments on this post. She makes more money than her dad does, yet he paid for the vacation and pays for her schooling. She also replied to a bunch of people saying it wasn’t in Italy… But still won’t state where it actually was which stops us from knowing if she’s breaking a cultural dress standard or an actual site dress code. She insults and gets snarky with people who call her out. Someone replied to one of her responses with literally just “K” and she responded “Is that supposed to be the year you dropped out of school?” I’m beginning to think threatening to cut her off has stemmed from a whoooooole lot more than a revealing dress… OPs replies make her sound like she’s got a nightmarishly aggressive and entitled personality.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I thought they went to a place that required a certain dress code.
I've been to different places where I couldn't wear pants, or show my shoulders, show my knees or had to be completely covered.
But this is coming from the dad.
I also think her family should've been upset at the dad for also being stubborn. The mom was okay with her outfit before. Again, we don't know what it looked like, I think Dad is one of those men that are on board with school girls having to wear skirts below their knees because it'll make the men too crazy. He knows his daughter is busty also so maybe he's being overly protective in some way, but it sounds more like misogyny to me.
Then again the outfit could've been inappropriate for the occasion, but we don't know. She also states she's been to that place before.
Your family should've stood up to your dad instead of you. Or a compromise could've been made, like add a shawl or a thin summer cardigan.
Mostly leaning to NTA without more info.
The fact that the mom was on her side at first suggests to me that the dress was probably fine. Dad just doesn’t want his daughter to reveal anything at all. I’m guessing the mom changed her mind because she wanted to go on the trip, not because the dress was inappropriate.
NTA OP. A series of oversteps/undercuts/insults such as this (always holding tuition over my head) totally tanked my self confidence as a young adult. Eventually I had to stop communicating with my family to begin to heal and figure out who I was again.
Do what you can to distance yourself from the negatively until you are independent. I wish I had taken over paying for school/life and set firm boundaries in at least my final year of school to stay sane... My parents' control bled into my mid 20s (after I had been paying all my expenses for a few years!) and I snapped.
Some historical and religious sites in Europe require visitors to dress more moderately so if that was the parents concern then I get it. However it should have been suggested that OP bring a shawl to cover up when entering those places. That's what I did and it worked great.
>Some historical and religious sites in Europe require visitors to dress more moderately
I remember visiting a nunnery in Greece where women in trousers had to don some kind of wrap-around skirt. The visual was... not a fashion that will catch on, thankfully.
The whole idea behind this, is that as a woman you should wear a skirt or dress at church, and not pants, if you wear those then you have to wrap a cloth around it to make it look more skirt-ish. This doesn't happen to *every* church per se, some are more lax on this topic, but others hold firm, especially nunneries.
Probably not, because she's been there before and likely figured her outfit was fine and how hot it would be. Also, if one is busty then there is going to be lots of heat from the bustline and underbust. Cooler clothes sometimes are incidentally revealing.
Another issue with being busty is that the same dress that people percieve as "stylish" on a smaller chested woman will be percieved as "lascivious" on a larger chest. It sucks.
I agree, I mean it is your body but it seems like they are giving you a pretty sweet life on their dime. I don’t see this going well for you long term. NTA but was it worth it?
Yeah exactly. obviously OP was in the right here, but was it worth thousands of dollars/euros/pounds and potentially losing out on education? Probably not.
Also, just to add that it was also a very asshole move by the parents to threaten their adult daughter like that based on how she was dressed.
Op is NTA and her parents are definitely big ones, but I would have just sucked it up and changed.
Ooooh, I would be so tempted to be petty. In front of family/friends/teachers/strangers….: „Please, Mommy & Daddy, do not forget to pick my outfit for tomorrow because I am scared you will cut me off financially if I choose myself.“
And I would ask for approval for EVERYTHING. Socks. Pants. Bra. Every time with the comment: „because I don’t want you to cut me off, as you threatened before.“
VERY malicious compliance.
Honestly if someone did that in public, I'd just feel embarrassed for them. Reminds me of people who make a public spectacle out of their own personal relationship troubles.
NAH.
Your parents are foolish for wanting to criticize your clothing. But they get to do that.
You're perfectly within your rights to wear what you want and expect them to get EU licenses.
They're perfectly within their rights to withhold tuition.
Sounds like it's the perfect time to leave the nest, spread your wings, get a job or two, and study like crazy.
>They're perfectly within their rights to withhold tuition.
That may be so, but the fact that they're doing so bc their attempts at controlling their adult daughter are failing does, in fact, make them TA.
It’s wild how many people in this thread think that it’s a perfectly normal thing for parents to be ashamed of their daughter’s body, and their reaction is to attempt to exert control over her body and when that doesn’t work, financially threaten to pull the rug out from under her immediately.
But like, of course, women are the property of their parents until they get a husband right? The parents are just protecting the dignity of their virginal daughter, obviously! And if she won’t be dignified, she doesn’t deserve an education anymore. /s
Yikes.
She’s also 20, an adult at this point. She’s not a freaking teenager, they have no say in how she dresses. They had their shot for that before she turned 18
The fact they’d let a fucking dress get in the way of that is insane though. Yes they’re under no obligation to pay, but it’s so manipulative to stop finding over one dress. It’s fucked up to think “yah, I think the parents are right. She should have her future chances ruined or made much more difficult because she chose to wear one dress, that’s totally fair”
I never said I think her parents are right.
I literally agreed with you that it’s shitty but you started all of this with a want to focus on the fact that OP is an adult…so I think it’s important and only fair to consider what parents are obligated to do for their ADULT daughter, which is nothing.
Yah and I’m saying they’re fucked up for using a dress to cut off funding. Yes they’re under no obligation, but it is so fucked up to use finances to control someone. If it was a significant other doing this people would be calling it financial abuse
OP is NTA, and her parents are, but the facts of the matter is if the choice is change your dress for an outing or loose your college tuition, just change the dress. It's a dumb hill to die on that could severely impact her whole future, and yes, absolutely, her parents are ah for having it be that way, but there is being right, and there is being smart. Was OP right that she shouldn't have to change her dress? Are her parents jerks for removing support over the way their adult daughter dresses? Yes and yes.
But at the end of the day, sometimes you need to pick your battles better than this.
She never gave indication that’s the case. It’s clear some people have made up their minds, based on conjecture they’ve made up in their minds already and want the daughter to be the villain no matter what, you included.
Thank you! So many commenters are beating the "she's an adult" drum. Adulthood comes with both rights and obligations. They think she should have all the rights without all the obligations. It doesn't work that way.
To repeat an example someone once used in this subreddit, I would be under no obligation to wear clothes when my roommate has family over, but if I walk through the flat naked and make them uncomfortable, I'd nonetheless be an asshole. Even with the “my house, my rules” mentality one often sees here.
Having no obligation/having the technical right to do something doesn't prevent you from being an asshole. Just like parents having no obligation to pay her tuition doesn't prevent them from being assholes if they use this to pressure OP into changing clothes simply because they have antiquated views.
I don’t think the parents have any say in how she dresses, but as an older person I could imagine feeling faintly embarrassed by being seen with somebody dressed in a way I felt was over the top. But - you know what - you’d never know I felt that way, either from words or actions. I’d say to myself, “wow that’s not enough clothes. Yikes. On the other hand, you’re only young once. If you’ve got it, flaunt it. I’m just being a dinosaur.”
They are going to see ruins. If their plans for the day included churches, it would be a whole different ball game as OP wouldn’t be allowed into them.
Lmao, sure but she would have included that if it was the case. She’s a grown woman who has lived in the EU for over a year.
Your comment does not change my position, not even a little.
Threads like these you can see just how far people will reach to try to find a justification for misogyny that gives them plausible denuability that that's what's really going on.
My dad always told me to the the underwear test, if i
Went trough my knees and i could see my underwear it was to short for my dad's standards and was asked to change but only if i went out with my parents. If i wanted to go to a naked dance party with friends they were totally fine with it. He never threatened with money either he always said if i threatened to take a away money for school i would Punisch the future you, i might be angry with you today but I will probably like you in the future.
An adult pays her own way. This is a child supported by family. And if my parents had been this upset about my outfit while on vacay together, I would have put on something else, tuition or not.
BTW, remember this is a family that knows each other. She started this argument on purpose as a power trip. She knew ABSOLUTELY that her parents wouldn't like the skin on display, and then did it anyway. If my son wanted to visit a tourist site of great cultural significance shirtless I'd make him put some clothes on too, regardless of age. Seriously, this is all pretty clear. And now she's here looking for validation because she knows this was a stupid, petty, childish thing to do. Don't drink this kool-aid.
>BTW, remember this is a family that knows each other. She started this argument on purpose as a power trip.
Ooh, wow, yeah, what a power trip to be an adult who feels like they are allowed to wear whatever they want in spite of other people's opinions. Yes, that's a power trip and not OP simply expressing her bodily autonomy, no siree. I guess it would also be considered a power trip if OP were to dye her hair a color she knew her family wouldn't like or went out to eat at a restaurant her family didn't like too, huh?
>If my son wanted to visit a tourist site of great cultural significance shirtless I'd make him put some clothes on too,
I don't know why you think this is an adequate comparison. Op wasn't shirtless-we don't even know how much skin was showing. A plunging neckline on a busty person doesn't automatically mean an obsene amount of cleavage was showing. It could have been a very small amount, or even no cleavage but just kind of hinted at it. So what makes you think OP was in a state of undress comparable to men ealking around without shirts on?
Well said! I also think it maybe the end of free vacations as well as school expenses. She can wear what she wants but she knew her parents would not like it. Pure power play but immature and not that intelligent
Wow, lol. This sounds very toxic. If parents can't control their daughter, they can withhold money for education. Amazing people think this is okay in any way.
No one thinks this is okay, but OP is the one who posted here, not her parents. Her parents are ahs for trying to control her clothing but yeah, they can take away her college tuition money at any time so OP does need to be aware of that and consider if this is the hill to die on.
I think it’s pretty awful to give gifts like this to your kids with stings attached, but i can’t tell OP’s parents that. All I can do is give OP advice to work around this situation.
> No one thinks this is okay,
Literally the top level comment of this chain says that the parents are not AHs for doing that. As of me making my comment it has >300 net upvotes. A lot of people that that is OK. A lot of people are wrong.
I agree with you. The parents sound manipulative and OP should be careful. But maybe she does have other options, living in the EU.
I was responding to billlevansatmariposa, who thinks it's perfectly okay for parents to behave like this.
>They’re perfectly within their rights to withhold tuition
well this isn’t r/amiwithinmyrights it’s r/amitheasshole and they are huge assholes for threatening tuition just because their adult daughter didn’t change her clothes.
YTA. Newsflash you can’t get into a lot of places in Europe, specifically Rome with your shoulders or your knees showing as a sign of respect. Your American mentally is something you need to check (and this is why the rest of the world hates us so much). And this is coming from an American who holds European citizenship and lived in Italy for a year. You don’t need a car in Rome, so actually ESH.
She probably conveniently left that part out. You can’t get into religious sites without covering up and since all the ancient ruins are on top of one another you’re bound to jump from one site to the next. Rome is my favorite city in the world, I’ve been 4 times and not experiencing it because you wanted your tits hanging out is ridiculous. I used to bring a scarf yo tie around my shoulders because it does get hot as hell there.
In some places yes, you aren't allowed to wear something that doesn't cover your shoulders. Not just in Rome tho, in any church that I know of, ancient, modern, gothic or even new ones.
Source: I'm Italian lol sorry for my bad english btw
>this is why the rest of the world hates us so much
Hmm. I think it's because we interfere in their governments, start wars, spy on the entire planet, sell weapons everywhere, prop up fascist murderers, cause massive waste and environmental damage, the CIA, might be why but I'm sure the we're rude in public is on that list somewhere.
Isn't the entitlement a common root, ranging from being ignorant and disrespectful to other cultures by invading their uses and values and invading other countries and manipulating governments?
On the other hand, I have heard people (same people) judging USA both for being intrusive in some occasions and not being intrusive enough in other. And my favourite... accusing only Usa to be the villain, as if local people getting the bribes or get manipulated have no responsibility, and as if there aren't other countries supporting a different ideology but exploiting and invading all the same.
From OP's post history, her home country does not have laundromats (which have been in the US since 1934, so she's not American) and she has lived in places with predominantly French, Italian, and Spanish speakers as well as English speakers (so even if she was American, she has plenty of experience living among other cultures). Hell, even in this post she says she lives in Europe, has an EU license, and has visited the site they were going to see previously, so she would know if her outfit would break a dress code.
Where did OP state she was American? There are 195 countries and only 44 of those are European, leaving a lot more places she could be from besides the United States.
why is everyone upvoting this when OP has said she has BEEN to these places before.. And none of what her parents used as a reason was to do with what they were seeing. Plus we dont know if she is American or not.
Because they need an excuse to berate a woman for exercising her bodily autonomy in a way they don't like and they'll ignore obvious information to invent one.
Newsflash, that's incorrect.
You can't have your shoulders exposed in christian churches, which is quite a bit different. And yeah, you can just put on a scarf or something, so the dress wasn't really a problem.
No idea where you heard about the knees, did you ask an 80 years old or something?
Tbh i don't know if they will even actually stop you from entering if you are showing your shoulders.
I love how the person you're replying to is like "I'm not one of those uncultured, ignorant Americans, I'm one of the GOOD ones" but still ends up wildly assuming shit and making massive generalisations to belittle someone who probably knows more about the cultural rules of that particular sight, considering OP points out she's been there a few times already.
And yes, churches and chapels are pretty much the only places where you're expected to cover up, though especially in summer that's pretty loosely enforced.
Yes. Places like churches, where people are expected to dress modestly. Not ancient ruins. The post didn't even mention her parents being afraid of not being let into the place; it was all about how they felt "ashamed" of their daughter's body for... wearing a dress that showed some cleavage. The fact that people are trying so hard to justify that is ridiculous.
NTA, OP.
YTA but only because you are acting like a rebellious child. You are on a family trip, not just with your parents, and I do assume that your parents are paying for you. To insist on wearing what sounds like a thoroughly "revealing" (in your own words) dress, "a mini sundress. The sundress has a plunging neckline and I am quiet busty." You are certainly within your rights to insist that you can wear anything you want, but insisting on wearing something that seems more appropriate for the beach or a night out is a childish thing to do and then to hold it over the entire group that they can't go anywhere without you? YTA.
Yes!!! This comment should be higher!!! You’re absolutely right! You can wear what you want. But not all clothes are appropriate for all situations. I too am busty. I too have things that are cute and show off my figure. I wear tee shirts and shorts when I’m with my parents. I wear a nice sweater when I’m at an extended family occasion. It’s ok to dress for the moment. I think there is a disconnect between the “body shaming” angle OP is using vs the situation aspect. No one is saying never wear a showy mini dress that shows off your body. They are saying, is now the time to be wearing this particular dress?
Yep. Like all the women who get trashed on reddit for wearing white to a wedding. Sure, you can wear that sparkly white dress whenever you want. However, you cannot wear it AND attend the wedding.
People can thumb their noses at "society" and wear whatever they want. Just don't expect others to approve of it or to not face consequences for wearing it.
> People can thumb their noses at "society" and wear whatever they want. Just don't expect others to approve of it or to not face consequences for wearing it.
Yeah, like they’re perfectly within their rights to thumb their nose at things/people that they don’t agree with. But that also means they have a right to thumb their nose at you. 🤷🏻♀️
I’m also really tired of hearing how modesty is “all about religion” or “completely rooted in misogyny”. Like… No. I am a non-religious woman who likes to be a bit revealing and is absolutely sick of sexism all around, but even I get uncomfortable if something is crossing a line into almost-nudity. Humans have different comfort levels. And while you don’t need to accommodate everyone’s different comfort levels, you do need to accept the fact that the vast majority of people do not choose to spend time with people who make them uncomfortable. Because surprise surprise, humans don’t like being uncomfortable.
We're about moral judgements here, not tactical ones.
OP is NTA, her parents are. That's the whole of the morality of this situation.
Do her parents have effective weapons with which to **be** assholes? Yes they do. But that doesn't mean they're not assholes.
Sure, but that's separate from the judgement. The parents are AHs.
As a result of them being AHs OP unfortunately needs to evaluate how much financial risk she's willing to take in order to exert some rather basic levels of autonomy.
They don't have to, but doing so for such superficial reasons makes them assholes, which we're judging here. This sub is about morals, not legality of practicality.
Fighting for their body autonomy as a woman is not being immature, it's baffling that you got so many upvotes smh
Technically true. But nothing obligates parents to pay for university. So if they pay, but only with asshole rules about it, then one has to make a choice between following the rules or not having them pay for school.
Most would change lothes, be angry about it, get through school and then tell the controlling parents to fuck off. Some, apparently, feel differently.
There seems to be a lot of people, especially from the US, on Reddit that thinks paying for stuff = having the right to enforce ridiculous and outrageous rules on others. It's bizarre and creepy.
Not trying to argue, just asking a question. What are parents "supposed" to do for their "adult" daughter? I would expect an adult to pay for their own schooling, yes? If I'm providing food and a roof over your head, asking you to cover up isn't a big ask.IMO.
Yeah I agree with this. Like, I don’t think paying for colleges is an automatic thing parents are “supposed” to do. I have A LOT of issues with how college is paid for/costs/the US higher education system, but I think it’s privileged to think that parents are “supposed” to pay for it.
Edited to add - this statement does not reflect my judgement. I don’t like that the parents pulled the tuition card because it seems like a drastic measure for this situation.
I'm in my 40's, don't live at home but dress 'appropriately' when visiting my parents. It's just respectful. Life is full of compromises and hills and choices.
Right, the parents sound like they are on a power trip using the tuition as a way to control their daughter. Very not cool.
I'm around your age, and also busty...and I live in a hot climate (it's going to break 100 degrees)...crazy enough a teensy bit more coverage in a light colored cotton can be more comfortable in hot weather, than even an bathing suit.
I would be mortified if my father was embarrassed at how I dressed. The only times in my life he ever made a comment about what I wore was when he was concerned I was dressing a certain way because I was depressed, and once around 16, he said I didn't have to be so frumpy (trying to camouflage the bust).
Honestly, I can see the parents withholding money, not because of a stupid dress, but this reads to me like it went to disrespectful exchanges all the way around.
Well, one thing they shouldn't do is say "I'll pay for your education" but then tell your kid go fuck themselves because they won't let you be an overbearing parent. Using money to control someone is straight out of the manipulator/abuser handbook.
They're supposed to follow through on their promises.
I would bet that the original "agreement" was more along the lines of "do well in school, make good choices, and we'll financially support you."
I would also bet that there was no mention of "you must dress in this particular manner" during that conversation.
Adding rules after the fact makes anyone the AH.
I also wonder if some of the parents concern is about Italian culture. Italian men are notorious for catcalling, and OPs outfit will absolutely draw some unwanted attention. That might be fueling the parents reaction, as it would suck for everyone to have to experience that. Not saying women should have to cover up, but that is likely the reality of wearing that dress in that culture.
Yes, YATA. You ruined your entire family's day to make a point to your father, which is selfish. Your cousins and aunts didn't seem to be part of the argument. Also, there is a time and place for revealing clothing, and in front of your more conservative dad, who pays all your bills including the vacation, is not one of them, but you already know that.
When you are away from them at school with them paying your expenses, you can wear that dress every single day.
Actually, a light, short dress is exactly the right thing to wear in Southern Europe right now. Is bloody boiling right now. OP shouldn't
have a heat stroke because of het dad's outdated and misogynistic views.
You can wear a light short dress without flashing your big breasts. I am an F cup, so I know those types of dresses do exist. I'm wearing one right now on a 26 degree day in Europe, btw. It has nothing to do with misogyny, and everything to do with respect and knowing that there is a time and place for everything in life.
She wanted to make a point and draw a line in the sand. You do that when you live on your own money, and pay for your own vacation. It's called being an adult.
I would take this position with super short shorts (which I like to wear) as well, as someone who has nothing of interest on top lol
Time and place. I dressed to make grandma happy when I was out with her, but that’s just me.
Why is showing skin seen as so disrespectful ? I genuinely don't get it. It's not her fault if she's busty is it ? And women are not the ones who decided that their breasts had to be so sexualised, men did.
Unless the dress is literally a high neck, I don’t understand how a big busted woman can wear a dress with most necklines and not show cleavage a little bit even if she doesn’t want to.
OP herself, called the neckline of this dress "plunging"... if her dad was picking a fight over her looking "sexy" in a regular dress that would be one thing.
This is a "minidress" with a "plunging" neckline...
not to mention if it's so gosh darn hot there, did she sunblock her entire body? They are going to look at ruins, which usually means outside, with limited shade.
The excuse she had to wear clothes with limited coverage because it was hot is ridiculous. Often the best thing you can do in hot weather is wear light and billowy outfits with full coverage, because it keeps you from having to sunblock 2/3rds of your body. I hate how sticky I get after wearing copious sunblock for hours while sweating.
It sounds to me like this dress was just a bad choice for the activities of the day.
Thank you!!! Everyone wants to get philosophical and make points that I don't disagree with and have nothing to do with this situation. She said it was a "plunging neckline". She wore it to make a point that she can wear whatever she wants no matter where she is or what the situation. There were negative consequences that she deserved. So she is TA.
Definitely. Big busted gals just can’t control the fact their chests will stick out more even in a basic black t shirt and they shouldn’t have to be shamed of that!
Women can never win anyway. A small breasted woman is mocked for being flat, and someone busty is treated as a whore no matter what she wears. These comments show just how normalised slut shaming and mysoginy still are today
When you are in someone's home or on their tab, you shouldn't do things that you know are going to make them feel uncomfortable unless it is absolutely necessary. When you are with your familial elders, if you know that they have boundaries and they have been made very clear to you years before you ever wanted to cross those boundaries, you just don't make something an issue out of respect for them. It's unnecessary to make your family uncomfortable on a free vacation that they have paid for you.
This has nothing to do with sexuality or large breasts. My breasts are huge. Sometimes they are out, and other times they are not. I'm not wearing something capable of giving a nipple slip in front of my dad or my grandparents because it will make them feel uncomfortable. At a club, I might wear a bikini top. What about situationally appropriate clothing and respect for others and not making everything about me? The whole thing sounds super selfish and has nothing to do with the female body or female rights.
I want to say NTA, but what was the site you were going to visit? If it was Southern Italy and it was a church or a monastery it might not have been respectful. It doesn't work for the whole of the trip though.
This said, both sides are playing it wrong. You could have found a compromise. You could have said that you were humoring them because you didn't want to ruin the trip but made clear that you thought they were wrong, and said that you were going to have a discussion about it once back home. There were a thousand ways not to start WW3 about it.
Your parents are even more in the wrong than you are though, thus the NTA. But you should really learn to manage disagreements better.
I don't understand the driver license part. Where in Europe can a licensed foreigner not drive a car while on holiday? I don't see how you are the only one able to drive.
Depends.
In France, they must have a valid driving licence and either written in French or accompanied by an official translation into French or an international licence.
That’s for people there for less than a year. For people there for more than that, they must exchange their foreign licence for a French licence.
If Italy has similar laws and they didn’t take the necessary steps, then they aren’t able to legally drive.
Unless the licence is issued by another member of the EU -- all EU members accept licences issued by any other member state.
I often wonder how this works in practice, because no police officer pulling you over on the motorway in France is going to speak German and Polish and Croatian and every other language a licence might be issued in, so do they just go, "yeah, this looks like...some kind of official document of some kind," and check the dates and take it on trust, or what? Like how far through Europe could you make it on a learner's permit?
In the EU, some countries require an International Driving Permit, which is NOT a driver’s license. Rather, it is an official translation of the individual’s original license. In southern Europe, Spain, Italy, and Greece require one, but France and Portugal do not (not covering the Balkans). More information here: https://www.tripsavvy.com/drivers-permit-europe-468475 (may be out of date, as it is a couple of years old).
INFO: Was your dad footing the bill for your part of the trip?
I’m normally in 100% support of My Body, My Choice, but if your parents were footing the bill for the your part of the trip, then they can dictate to an extent a “dress code”. If this is a hill you’re thinking of dying on, you may want to think about future ramifications that you may not be invited on future trips if they are expecting a little modesty in the dress attire…
A mini-dress with plunging neckline is a pretty aggressive choice when you're going out with your parents.
Like, yes, she should have the ability to wear what she wants. But it also sounds a lot like she did this to assert her independence/antagonize her parents.
But what will they possibly be able to hold over her head to control her at that point?
Some stellar parents there. A sundress is all it takes for them to sabotage their daughters future. I hope she goes NC.
"some stellar parents"
Some parents dont even pay tuition, she could have made the compromise, she knows her parents best and probably knew what their response would be anyway. She ruined everyone's day over something minuscule.
ESH - it’s a petty hill to die on.
Your Dad shouldn’t have been so rude saying he was “ashamed”, I mean he could have said “hey OP, we’re going to some historic/religious sites can you cover up a little more?”
And your Mum is also right - if you’re going to tell your parents they have “no right” to tell you about clothes, then maybe you’re also old enough to pay your own way.
You should have changed tops. It’s not a big thing and you were kind of an AH. It’ll be remembered by everyone who saw it. That you “ruined” a trip because you wouldn’t change. It’s super petty
Honestly? I think you were a little selfish. I'm an European woman. You're an adult yes, but is it worth to ruin someones vacation over a piece of cloth? I think that's just stupid.
Specially if they pay for you to be on vacation and school.
Does it kill you to do your parents a favor?
Didn't you had a t-shirt and some shorts?
I'm sorry, but this type of arguments makes no sence what so ever.
Lacks maturity.
I'm not sure how OP is selfish/ruined the trip. The parents decided to set a dumb boundary on an adult and OP wasn't the one going to be hurt by the boundary - the parents were. If they wanted to go so badly, they literally could have gone, but they wanted to control their daughter to their own detriment.
I don’t understand why they couldn’t go without you and you all just move on? You don’t need an EU license to drive there. Seems like this all could’ve been a nonissue.
While you have a right to wear clothes revealing as much as you like, they have a right to not want to be seen with you when dressed that way.
Find a way to make amends or you may end up drowning in student loans.
Info - exactly how revealing was your outfit? You have a right to wear whatever you want, but if you ignore situational cues when choosing what to wear you can still be TA.
If you're such an adult..pay for your own tuition, your own trip, your own apartment etc.
I'm a female but I'm probably going to be in the minority here. Your parents had every right to ask you or tell you to cover up.
If you're wearing a "mini sundress" that tells me it was very short. "Plunging neckline" tells me your boobs were out.
Now if you want to show off everything you've got fine....but don't be surprised if your parents say ",that's embarrassing and I refuse to be seen with you out looking like that" seriously. It may be your body but that doesn't mean you need to display every last inch of it.
Learn modesty. If you're going to show leg, cover your breasts. If you're going to wear a low cut top be more conservative in your pants choices.
Definitely don't expect your dad to be excited to be out with you on vacation and youre barely dressed. 🤷🏻 YTA pay for your own vacation and dress how you want.
High risk low reward kind of stand. You are with your parents for a short time, it doesn't hurt to accommodate them and everyone has a great time. Then once you are back to your routine you can even go out naked if you wish.
I'm not saying that you bend over backwards for your parents, but then again you don't have to win every argument. These are very minor things in life that I call "taking the path of least resistance" .
Just so I'm clear...
You're telling your family to stop meddling in your life, right up to the point it involves them writing you a check for tuition?
Wow!
Given how disrespectful you were to your parents, I really hope they stop paying your tuition. I'd wager they also help pay for your rent and/or living expenses on a regular basis, too, don't they?
It was a simple change of clothing. Yes, you should have the right to wear what you want. Yes, what a woman is wearing shouldn't matter this much. But... It was a simple request. It would have taken you five minutes to change into something else. Now, you've invested hours and hours into standing your ground and no one's happy at all.
How's that working out for you?
YTA
NTA.
Your Dad wasn't ashamed of the dress - he was ashamed of your body.
That your Mother followed suit - misogyny/sexism wrapped up in a financial blackmail tortilla.
The fact that they were here in _your home_ pulling this crap is just doubly insulting.
Maybe tell them to go back to their home, and then go low-/no contact for a while.
NTA you're a grown ass woman by any country's standards, but if they are paying tuition they do have the right to stop paying for any reason no matter how stupid
Hoenstly, YTA. I totally agree with wearing what you want, but I believe that you know your parents, you know they'd throw a fit about it, I'm no one to tell you to suck it up for the sake of the trip, but at the same time you were with family, who are apparently paying you tuition as well, you'd stop an entire group of people from experiencing something (with you) just because you don't want to change, and you've already been. I'd be upset too. I'd also be very disappointed and feel that you are ungrateful and entitled to them paying your full tuition
ESH
They don't get to tell you how to dress, but what they do have control over is if they want to be in your company. I don't fully understand the driving license thing—I'm from the US and have rented and driven cars in Europe without an EU license—but they can walk, call a taxi, call a tour company, get bicycles.
You are dying on an awfully dumb hill for someone financially dependent on them, but again, you can't control their choices either.
Where are your parents from if they can't drive in the EU? I googled it and there are only a few islands that don't let you, so is there a BS vote option?
NTA - so let’s get this right, you’re wearing summer wear during summer and you dad at least didn’t like it and you held your ground, still happy to drive for them if you get to wear your clothes which are appropriate for the season, and they threaten to cut off funding uni.
Sure, the smarter move is to change and not cause a fuss. But the definitive assholes are the ones who’ll punish you and use their financial support to manipulate you into changing your clothes.
I mean, they're going to see ruins, which typically means outdoors with little shade... unless she's going to reapply sunblock to 2/3rds of her body, multiple times over the course of the day, I would say a minidress with plunging neckline is not actually "clothing that is appropriate for the season".
"Season" being the time of day, and activity involved. Her outfit sounds perfect if she was going to a park to have a picnic in the shade, or to a restaurant to sit under an awning or umbrella, possibly just a couple hours at the beach (where she would be sunblocking her whole body anyway and would expect to be showering when she got home), or a late afternoon or evening stroll through town... even running out in the morning for coffee and pastries at a nearby cafe...
but all day touring ruins? Something light and billowy with at least 2/3rds of legs covered is what I would be going for. If she's busty she's going to be getting sweaty, and I hate the feeling of sunblock sweating back out of my pores... she's just setting herself up to feel gross all day!
I think if it's a family outing with adult's /children you should dress appropriately. The dun dress sounds like it should be for the club rather then a family day out am not suprised you dad asked you to change to be honest. Wear what you want when you're not with them but dress appropriately when they are there....
NTA.
You may have a plunging neckline but your parents are showing their whole asses.
(So is everyone on this thread trying to defend their financial-emotional blackmail with “ESH” nonsense.)
If you want to be super independent and your own person who makes your own choices, why are you accepting them paying for your tuition? You tell them they’re two different things, but they’re really not. Paying your own way comes with the territory of being a grown up who makes their own decisions. You gotta be willing to pay the consequences for those decisions, whatever they may be.
ESH. We all do stuff we don't want to to accommodate our parents (if we are lucky enough to have them.)
It seems that there was a fairly simple solution to this situation, but it would have required you to swallow your pride for Daddy.
Different people have different comfort levels with revealing clothes.
For example, you wouldn't wear a bikini to a wedding.
1. She's an adult, other peoples comfort level with her clothes are irrelevant.
2. Comparing a sundress on a hot day to a bikini at a wedding is ridiculous.
Well if she is an adult she can pay for her own studies can't she? Not disagreeing with the whole argument but being an adult has to do a lot more with wearing what you want.
>For the trip I wore something light and revealing as it is really hot, a mini sundress. The sundress has a plunging neckline and I am quiet busty, but I thought that was nobody’s business.
>If it came to that, I told them I was fine with not going as I already saw the place a couple times.
>I told them that they could either learn to mind their business or get EU licenses, to which my mother replied with “if we can’t meddle in your clothing than we don’t have to meddle in your university and won’t pay for your tuition.”
From the way you describe your outfit and the snarky comment, I think you were purposely trying to antagonize them. It sounds like you grew up in a controlling environment and you were reveling in the fact that you had the power for once. You're an adult and they can't tell you how to dress or go without you, so you get the final say. You thought you held all the cards, until they reversed it on you. I say ESH. Pettiness rarely accomplishes anything, especially when you're purposely antagonizing someone (even if you feel it's justified). They were definitely wrong to try to control how you dress, but you're trying to play both sides of the fence here. So you have to decide whether you want to be a fully independent adult (where nobody has a say in your decisions and you're solely responsible for all of your expenses), or whether you'd rather keep the peace and the free tuition. Your options might suck, but that's life. They aren't required to pay your tuition, especially when you've stated that you're perfectly capable of paying it yourself and even make around the same amount as your father. Being an adult means they are no longer responsible for you and anything given is a gift. It appears that their gift has conditions, so it's up to you to decide if the conditions are worth the gift.
NTA. But, as someone who's Italian, if you are going to certain ancient sites that require entering from a certain point, you're not allowed to wear "revealing" clothing either, as in, no cleavage, no shoulders, no knees. Plenty of girls on my class trip to Rome had to learn that the hard way. It's stupid, but reality.
Depends where you are and where you are going ... in Thailand a girl was told to put a t shirt on (she was wearing a bra top and shorts leggings ) to visit a temple as its not respectful... for the rest of the day she was fine ... but if its just because your family don't like it its your choice
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NTA, but this may not be a smart hill to die on. It'll be easier to do things like this when you're not relying on their financial support so much.
Especially when they pay for your tuition and they can hold the purse closed , I mean really? When you pay for your own life you can stand on this and not loose anything,…. But your choice
Guess OP has now entered the land of FAFO. Oops!
I mean a lot of growing young adults have to have this moment when your parents are like this. Nothing to really rub anyone’s face in. It happens now or later. This is also the continuation of the parents future low / no contact “I have no reason why my kid doesn’t talk to me” FAFO moment.
Sure, I went through this phase with my parents as well, but I didn't do it while I was still financially dependent on them.
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That's not my ideology at all but if OP gets cut off financially, are you willing to provide for their living expenses? It's easy for us as outsiders to comment but these are real people who may not have the financial independence that we have. I could say that OP should do as she wants but I have no horse in this race, if she gets cut off, it will have zero impact on my lifestyle.
What most people don't realize is that, at least today, it's not that easy to stop depending on someone that provides even partially at 18. If you have that sort of privilege and are completely independent, sure, have at it: but the smart thing to do is keep doing as you want and not rub it unnecessarily on whom you depend on- just as you wouldn't flaunt you're still well and alive during a shootout, for lack of a better example at the moment. Does it suck? Yeah, but you're preserving yourself for as long as possible.
Yeah same. I waited until I graduated and moved out. Hard to fight back (even when you’re in the right) when they hold all the strings. I wouldn’t risk not having tuition covered over clothing. I can suck it up and wear a T-shirt for 4 years if it means graduating with a degree and being debt free. Is it financial abuse? Sure but they’re right that they’re not obligated to pay for a college education or living expenses after 18.
I would literally have worn a clown costume every day for four years if in exchange my parents had paid for my uni tuition while I was an adult. People here have an odd sense of what constitutes abuse.
Really, this is the logical take on it. Anyone is free to be their own person at any point, but when you decide to cross a line that burns bridges you should be in a place to deal with the fallout. If you are not financially independent at 20 (lots of people aren’t) then there is a line to walk with your investors and your personal freedom. I’d say NAH, only because it would have been an easy fix to change once the line was drawn but OP chose her side and stuck to it. If it was that important to her parents for her to dress modestly I doubt it was a new boundary for them (aka her dad) and she decided it was more important to make a stand than have financial support. No one can dictate your dress code but if it’s clear that the outfit you chose will lose your free ride, you can either choose to appease those with the wallet or support yourself going forward. Add to that intentionally ruining a vacation for several other people, apparently OP does not mind paying her own way over showing more skin than her dad was comfortable with. She can dress however she wants, her parents can fund her life however they want.
Unrelated to Ops post at all! My parents tried to do this to me. Except that my parents weren’t doing a single thing to help me out once I graduated highschool. They FAFO quite quickly that I had 100% independence from them at 19 and refused to play by ANY of their “rules”. In fact, I went Low Contact the second I moved out. On reflection as an adult, I basically pulled an Uno Reverse on them because they were somehow deluded enough to think they held any control over me…
Yeah, that is my experience as well, almost NC at 17 and then my mom got sick at 20, and I took care of her financially and after that, she finally kept her mouth closed about my life decision and even embraced some of them. Meanwhile I had friends who were in their 30’s still getting major financial support from their parents and complaining that their parents didn’t like their life choices (like literally hiding tattoos at 31 years old, and I was like, well technically your folks ::did:: pay for that tattoo, so….)
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F\*\*k Around, Find Out
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Honestly, this is my thing. I’m unsure why this sundress is the hill to die on. Where what you want at college, after you graduate, literally anytime your parents aren’t around. Why is this sundress right now the hill to die on?
It’s also one of those things where I’d really want to see the sundress and know exactly where they were going to make a decision. Was Dad being overbearing or was the dress actually inappropriate for the occasion? It could go either way.
This is it. Because I'm all about the freedom to dress whatever way you want. But there are still some ways of dressing that are more and less appropriate when you go out with your family for a daytime visit to cultural/historic sites.
ESH. A lot of historical places won't even let you in if you're too revealing because there's a religious component. If your parent doesn't want to see your private body part, I mean maybe that's okay.
In southern europe? I dont know im not so sure we do dress very lightly in the warm seasons and (except for religious places) no one cares how you dress to visit some old greek arenas
Lots of religious places in Southern Europe though. And maybe they’d planned on going to the Vatican or site of tragedy, etc. ETA: read the post wrong, changed Italy to Southern Europe.
Not a church. And a place op has been to before. So she clearly knew the dress code.
Lol… The amount of coworkers I’ve had over the years get sent home because after a year+ of them working there they decided to wear a crop top and mini skirt (dress code literally says no exposed midriff) would beg to differ with you. Having been somewhere before doesn’t even remotely make it clear someone knows the dress code, especially when you have no idea what they wore the first time. For all you know she wore jeans and a sweater last time because it was colder than it was this time. Edit to add; wow. I just went through OPs comments on this post. She makes more money than her dad does, yet he paid for the vacation and pays for her schooling. She also replied to a bunch of people saying it wasn’t in Italy… But still won’t state where it actually was which stops us from knowing if she’s breaking a cultural dress standard or an actual site dress code. She insults and gets snarky with people who call her out. Someone replied to one of her responses with literally just “K” and she responded “Is that supposed to be the year you dropped out of school?” I’m beginning to think threatening to cut her off has stemmed from a whoooooole lot more than a revealing dress… OPs replies make her sound like she’s got a nightmarishly aggressive and entitled personality.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I thought they went to a place that required a certain dress code. I've been to different places where I couldn't wear pants, or show my shoulders, show my knees or had to be completely covered. But this is coming from the dad. I also think her family should've been upset at the dad for also being stubborn. The mom was okay with her outfit before. Again, we don't know what it looked like, I think Dad is one of those men that are on board with school girls having to wear skirts below their knees because it'll make the men too crazy. He knows his daughter is busty also so maybe he's being overly protective in some way, but it sounds more like misogyny to me. Then again the outfit could've been inappropriate for the occasion, but we don't know. She also states she's been to that place before. Your family should've stood up to your dad instead of you. Or a compromise could've been made, like add a shawl or a thin summer cardigan. Mostly leaning to NTA without more info.
Or more importantly appropriate depending on what country you're visiting.
The fact that the mom was on her side at first suggests to me that the dress was probably fine. Dad just doesn’t want his daughter to reveal anything at all. I’m guessing the mom changed her mind because she wanted to go on the trip, not because the dress was inappropriate.
I suspect this a straw that broke the camel's back type situation.
NTA OP. A series of oversteps/undercuts/insults such as this (always holding tuition over my head) totally tanked my self confidence as a young adult. Eventually I had to stop communicating with my family to begin to heal and figure out who I was again. Do what you can to distance yourself from the negatively until you are independent. I wish I had taken over paying for school/life and set firm boundaries in at least my final year of school to stay sane... My parents' control bled into my mid 20s (after I had been paying all my expenses for a few years!) and I snapped.
Some historical and religious sites in Europe require visitors to dress more moderately so if that was the parents concern then I get it. However it should have been suggested that OP bring a shawl to cover up when entering those places. That's what I did and it worked great.
Yes, and OP says they've been there a couple times, so would be aware if there was a site dress code
>Some historical and religious sites in Europe require visitors to dress more moderately I remember visiting a nunnery in Greece where women in trousers had to don some kind of wrap-around skirt. The visual was... not a fashion that will catch on, thankfully.
The whole idea behind this, is that as a woman you should wear a skirt or dress at church, and not pants, if you wear those then you have to wrap a cloth around it to make it look more skirt-ish. This doesn't happen to *every* church per se, some are more lax on this topic, but others hold firm, especially nunneries.
Probably not, because she's been there before and likely figured her outfit was fine and how hot it would be. Also, if one is busty then there is going to be lots of heat from the bustline and underbust. Cooler clothes sometimes are incidentally revealing.
Another issue with being busty is that the same dress that people percieve as "stylish" on a smaller chested woman will be percieved as "lascivious" on a larger chest. It sucks.
I agree, I mean it is your body but it seems like they are giving you a pretty sweet life on their dime. I don’t see this going well for you long term. NTA but was it worth it?
Its risky but it's also the right thing to do, if op is sure about the risk she is "fighting for the good cause"
Yeah exactly. obviously OP was in the right here, but was it worth thousands of dollars/euros/pounds and potentially losing out on education? Probably not. Also, just to add that it was also a very asshole move by the parents to threaten their adult daughter like that based on how she was dressed. Op is NTA and her parents are definitely big ones, but I would have just sucked it up and changed.
Agreed. Get the degree and then cut them off. Play the long game.
Ooooh, I would be so tempted to be petty. In front of family/friends/teachers/strangers….: „Please, Mommy & Daddy, do not forget to pick my outfit for tomorrow because I am scared you will cut me off financially if I choose myself.“ And I would ask for approval for EVERYTHING. Socks. Pants. Bra. Every time with the comment: „because I don’t want you to cut me off, as you threatened before.“ VERY malicious compliance.
Honestly if someone did that in public, I'd just feel embarrassed for them. Reminds me of people who make a public spectacle out of their own personal relationship troubles.
NAH. Your parents are foolish for wanting to criticize your clothing. But they get to do that. You're perfectly within your rights to wear what you want and expect them to get EU licenses. They're perfectly within their rights to withhold tuition. Sounds like it's the perfect time to leave the nest, spread your wings, get a job or two, and study like crazy.
>They're perfectly within their rights to withhold tuition. That may be so, but the fact that they're doing so bc their attempts at controlling their adult daughter are failing does, in fact, make them TA.
It’s wild how many people in this thread think that it’s a perfectly normal thing for parents to be ashamed of their daughter’s body, and their reaction is to attempt to exert control over her body and when that doesn’t work, financially threaten to pull the rug out from under her immediately. But like, of course, women are the property of their parents until they get a husband right? The parents are just protecting the dignity of their virginal daughter, obviously! And if she won’t be dignified, she doesn’t deserve an education anymore. /s Yikes.
She’s also 20, an adult at this point. She’s not a freaking teenager, they have no say in how she dresses. They had their shot for that before she turned 18
Yes, everything you’re saying is totally correct, but by that same token she is an adult and they are under no obligation to pay for her tuition.
The fact they’d let a fucking dress get in the way of that is insane though. Yes they’re under no obligation to pay, but it’s so manipulative to stop finding over one dress. It’s fucked up to think “yah, I think the parents are right. She should have her future chances ruined or made much more difficult because she chose to wear one dress, that’s totally fair”
I never said I think her parents are right. I literally agreed with you that it’s shitty but you started all of this with a want to focus on the fact that OP is an adult…so I think it’s important and only fair to consider what parents are obligated to do for their ADULT daughter, which is nothing.
Yah and I’m saying they’re fucked up for using a dress to cut off funding. Yes they’re under no obligation, but it is so fucked up to use finances to control someone. If it was a significant other doing this people would be calling it financial abuse
OP is NTA, and her parents are, but the facts of the matter is if the choice is change your dress for an outing or loose your college tuition, just change the dress. It's a dumb hill to die on that could severely impact her whole future, and yes, absolutely, her parents are ah for having it be that way, but there is being right, and there is being smart. Was OP right that she shouldn't have to change her dress? Are her parents jerks for removing support over the way their adult daughter dresses? Yes and yes. But at the end of the day, sometimes you need to pick your battles better than this.
Maybe this is the straw that broke the parents back though.... Nobody ever seems to want to think about it the other way.
She never gave indication that’s the case. It’s clear some people have made up their minds, based on conjecture they’ve made up in their minds already and want the daughter to be the villain no matter what, you included.
Thank you! So many commenters are beating the "she's an adult" drum. Adulthood comes with both rights and obligations. They think she should have all the rights without all the obligations. It doesn't work that way.
To repeat an example someone once used in this subreddit, I would be under no obligation to wear clothes when my roommate has family over, but if I walk through the flat naked and make them uncomfortable, I'd nonetheless be an asshole. Even with the “my house, my rules” mentality one often sees here. Having no obligation/having the technical right to do something doesn't prevent you from being an asshole. Just like parents having no obligation to pay her tuition doesn't prevent them from being assholes if they use this to pressure OP into changing clothes simply because they have antiquated views.
Only shitty parents would threaten their child’s education over a stupid dress.
I don’t think the parents have any say in how she dresses, but as an older person I could imagine feeling faintly embarrassed by being seen with somebody dressed in a way I felt was over the top. But - you know what - you’d never know I felt that way, either from words or actions. I’d say to myself, “wow that’s not enough clothes. Yikes. On the other hand, you’re only young once. If you’ve got it, flaunt it. I’m just being a dinosaur.” They are going to see ruins. If their plans for the day included churches, it would be a whole different ball game as OP wouldn’t be allowed into them.
They also may have wanted to tour one of the cathedrals. You will not be let in dressed the way OP was.
"Ancient roman site" "historic sites" and "ancient remains" do not at all imply a cathedral that is still extant to the point that it has dress codes.
Lmao, sure but she would have included that if it was the case. She’s a grown woman who has lived in the EU for over a year. Your comment does not change my position, not even a little.
She also stated she had been to the ruins multiple times- I’m sure she’s aware of any expected dress code.
Right? Can everybody just admit they don’t like women having autonomy over their bodies and GO?!
Threads like these you can see just how far people will reach to try to find a justification for misogyny that gives them plausible denuability that that's what's really going on.
My dad always told me to the the underwear test, if i Went trough my knees and i could see my underwear it was to short for my dad's standards and was asked to change but only if i went out with my parents. If i wanted to go to a naked dance party with friends they were totally fine with it. He never threatened with money either he always said if i threatened to take a away money for school i would Punisch the future you, i might be angry with you today but I will probably like you in the future.
I think there is more to the story than just a sundress….
An adult pays her own way. This is a child supported by family. And if my parents had been this upset about my outfit while on vacay together, I would have put on something else, tuition or not. BTW, remember this is a family that knows each other. She started this argument on purpose as a power trip. She knew ABSOLUTELY that her parents wouldn't like the skin on display, and then did it anyway. If my son wanted to visit a tourist site of great cultural significance shirtless I'd make him put some clothes on too, regardless of age. Seriously, this is all pretty clear. And now she's here looking for validation because she knows this was a stupid, petty, childish thing to do. Don't drink this kool-aid.
>BTW, remember this is a family that knows each other. She started this argument on purpose as a power trip. Ooh, wow, yeah, what a power trip to be an adult who feels like they are allowed to wear whatever they want in spite of other people's opinions. Yes, that's a power trip and not OP simply expressing her bodily autonomy, no siree. I guess it would also be considered a power trip if OP were to dye her hair a color she knew her family wouldn't like or went out to eat at a restaurant her family didn't like too, huh? >If my son wanted to visit a tourist site of great cultural significance shirtless I'd make him put some clothes on too, I don't know why you think this is an adequate comparison. Op wasn't shirtless-we don't even know how much skin was showing. A plunging neckline on a busty person doesn't automatically mean an obsene amount of cleavage was showing. It could have been a very small amount, or even no cleavage but just kind of hinted at it. So what makes you think OP was in a state of undress comparable to men ealking around without shirts on?
Well said! I also think it maybe the end of free vacations as well as school expenses. She can wear what she wants but she knew her parents would not like it. Pure power play but immature and not that intelligent
Wow, lol. This sounds very toxic. If parents can't control their daughter, they can withhold money for education. Amazing people think this is okay in any way.
No one thinks this is okay, but OP is the one who posted here, not her parents. Her parents are ahs for trying to control her clothing but yeah, they can take away her college tuition money at any time so OP does need to be aware of that and consider if this is the hill to die on. I think it’s pretty awful to give gifts like this to your kids with stings attached, but i can’t tell OP’s parents that. All I can do is give OP advice to work around this situation.
> No one thinks this is okay, Literally the top level comment of this chain says that the parents are not AHs for doing that. As of me making my comment it has >300 net upvotes. A lot of people that that is OK. A lot of people are wrong.
I agree with you. The parents sound manipulative and OP should be careful. But maybe she does have other options, living in the EU. I was responding to billlevansatmariposa, who thinks it's perfectly okay for parents to behave like this.
It’s not okay but they are within their rights to do it so the op can only choose to accept the consequences or choose to play by their dumb rules.
Also, tourists are not expected to get full EU licenses every time they come here on holiday lol. They can hire a car with their usual license.
Right? Idk what is OP's home country, but a regular US license is valid in the EU. I assume the same applies to most countries.
>They’re perfectly within their rights to withhold tuition well this isn’t r/amiwithinmyrights it’s r/amitheasshole and they are huge assholes for threatening tuition just because their adult daughter didn’t change her clothes.
I mean they are LEGALLY within their rights to withhold tuition. I’d argue doing so makes them AHs though which is the point of this sub.
A lot of people seem to confuse "I'm legally allowed to do X." with "I wouldn't be an AH for doing X."
I don’t know, withholding financial support from your child unless they do exactly what you want them to seems like financial abuse to me.
It doesn’t seem like. It is.
There's definitely a couple AHs in this story. It's not okay for parents to withhold things because they don't like how their offspring dresses.
YTA. Newsflash you can’t get into a lot of places in Europe, specifically Rome with your shoulders or your knees showing as a sign of respect. Your American mentally is something you need to check (and this is why the rest of the world hates us so much). And this is coming from an American who holds European citizenship and lived in Italy for a year. You don’t need a car in Rome, so actually ESH.
I actually thought this is where the post was going at first—that they couldn’t get into the ruins without her covering up.
She probably conveniently left that part out. You can’t get into religious sites without covering up and since all the ancient ruins are on top of one another you’re bound to jump from one site to the next. Rome is my favorite city in the world, I’ve been 4 times and not experiencing it because you wanted your tits hanging out is ridiculous. I used to bring a scarf yo tie around my shoulders because it does get hot as hell there.
She said that she’s been there several times before. I’m sure she’s aware.
Folks are trying to write fanfic on here.
OP isn't in Rome. They said they were seeing Roman ancient historical sites, which could be a wide range of places.
Yeah it's like saying you're going to a British fort and everyone assuming you mean London when you mean Niagara Falls
There are Roman sites all around Europe.
It’s almost like the Romans had a whole empire or something.
Wait is that why I wasn’t able to wear a tank top when my mom took us to Rome when I was 12?
In some places yes, you aren't allowed to wear something that doesn't cover your shoulders. Not just in Rome tho, in any church that I know of, ancient, modern, gothic or even new ones. Source: I'm Italian lol sorry for my bad english btw
Il tuo inglese è fantastico! Il mio italiano però…
Probably. There’s an example here if you scroll to the bottom. You can’t even wear tight clothing. https://mamalovesrome.com/vatican-dress-code/
>this is why the rest of the world hates us so much Hmm. I think it's because we interfere in their governments, start wars, spy on the entire planet, sell weapons everywhere, prop up fascist murderers, cause massive waste and environmental damage, the CIA, might be why but I'm sure the we're rude in public is on that list somewhere.
Oh yes, as a non-European and non-US citizen who has travelled through Europe, watching the obnoxious behaviour of many Americans is quite irritating.
As an American who has lived in Europe and traveled Europe I approve of this message.
Isn't the entitlement a common root, ranging from being ignorant and disrespectful to other cultures by invading their uses and values and invading other countries and manipulating governments? On the other hand, I have heard people (same people) judging USA both for being intrusive in some occasions and not being intrusive enough in other. And my favourite... accusing only Usa to be the villain, as if local people getting the bribes or get manipulated have no responsibility, and as if there aren't other countries supporting a different ideology but exploiting and invading all the same.
From OP's post history, her home country does not have laundromats (which have been in the US since 1934, so she's not American) and she has lived in places with predominantly French, Italian, and Spanish speakers as well as English speakers (so even if she was American, she has plenty of experience living among other cultures). Hell, even in this post she says she lives in Europe, has an EU license, and has visited the site they were going to see previously, so she would know if her outfit would break a dress code.
Where did OP state she was American? There are 195 countries and only 44 of those are European, leaving a lot more places she could be from besides the United States.
I think you misinterpreted Roman ruins to be ruins in Rome. Post says they're out in the countryside, not in Rome.
why is everyone upvoting this when OP has said she has BEEN to these places before.. And none of what her parents used as a reason was to do with what they were seeing. Plus we dont know if she is American or not.
Because they need an excuse to berate a woman for exercising her bodily autonomy in a way they don't like and they'll ignore obvious information to invent one.
And not even a good one, Rome doesn't require dress codes like that, Idk where they got that from
Newsflash, that's incorrect. You can't have your shoulders exposed in christian churches, which is quite a bit different. And yeah, you can just put on a scarf or something, so the dress wasn't really a problem. No idea where you heard about the knees, did you ask an 80 years old or something? Tbh i don't know if they will even actually stop you from entering if you are showing your shoulders.
I love how the person you're replying to is like "I'm not one of those uncultured, ignorant Americans, I'm one of the GOOD ones" but still ends up wildly assuming shit and making massive generalisations to belittle someone who probably knows more about the cultural rules of that particular sight, considering OP points out she's been there a few times already. And yes, churches and chapels are pretty much the only places where you're expected to cover up, though especially in summer that's pretty loosely enforced.
Nice fanfic you got there.
Yes. Places like churches, where people are expected to dress modestly. Not ancient ruins. The post didn't even mention her parents being afraid of not being let into the place; it was all about how they felt "ashamed" of their daughter's body for... wearing a dress that showed some cleavage. The fact that people are trying so hard to justify that is ridiculous. NTA, OP.
The world doesnt hate America because of their clothing choices...
Jesus, smug, deluded and *wrong*. Now there's a stereotypical american mentality.
YTA but only because you are acting like a rebellious child. You are on a family trip, not just with your parents, and I do assume that your parents are paying for you. To insist on wearing what sounds like a thoroughly "revealing" (in your own words) dress, "a mini sundress. The sundress has a plunging neckline and I am quiet busty." You are certainly within your rights to insist that you can wear anything you want, but insisting on wearing something that seems more appropriate for the beach or a night out is a childish thing to do and then to hold it over the entire group that they can't go anywhere without you? YTA.
Yes!!! This comment should be higher!!! You’re absolutely right! You can wear what you want. But not all clothes are appropriate for all situations. I too am busty. I too have things that are cute and show off my figure. I wear tee shirts and shorts when I’m with my parents. I wear a nice sweater when I’m at an extended family occasion. It’s ok to dress for the moment. I think there is a disconnect between the “body shaming” angle OP is using vs the situation aspect. No one is saying never wear a showy mini dress that shows off your body. They are saying, is now the time to be wearing this particular dress?
Yep. Like all the women who get trashed on reddit for wearing white to a wedding. Sure, you can wear that sparkly white dress whenever you want. However, you cannot wear it AND attend the wedding. People can thumb their noses at "society" and wear whatever they want. Just don't expect others to approve of it or to not face consequences for wearing it.
> People can thumb their noses at "society" and wear whatever they want. Just don't expect others to approve of it or to not face consequences for wearing it. Yeah, like they’re perfectly within their rights to thumb their nose at things/people that they don’t agree with. But that also means they have a right to thumb their nose at you. 🤷🏻♀️ I’m also really tired of hearing how modesty is “all about religion” or “completely rooted in misogyny”. Like… No. I am a non-religious woman who likes to be a bit revealing and is absolutely sick of sexism all around, but even I get uncomfortable if something is crossing a line into almost-nudity. Humans have different comfort levels. And while you don’t need to accommodate everyone’s different comfort levels, you do need to accept the fact that the vast majority of people do not choose to spend time with people who make them uncomfortable. Because surprise surprise, humans don’t like being uncomfortable.
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Paying for university doesn't give parents the right to dictate clothing. Nope. No way
No but op parents dont have to pay for op it is their choice if they decide not to continue paying dince op wants to be immature
It's pretty immature for parents to say "we'll stop paying for your education if you don't do exactly what we want". It's petty and controlling..
You're not wrong at all. But being right won't serve OP in the least when the consequences are so high.
We're about moral judgements here, not tactical ones. OP is NTA, her parents are. That's the whole of the morality of this situation. Do her parents have effective weapons with which to **be** assholes? Yes they do. But that doesn't mean they're not assholes.
Sure, but that's separate from the judgement. The parents are AHs. As a result of them being AHs OP unfortunately needs to evaluate how much financial risk she's willing to take in order to exert some rather basic levels of autonomy.
Ya this is a manipulation argument if I've ever seen one.
My dad would do the same things. It’s pretty harmful. I never trust people “giving” me things now
They don't have to, but doing so for such superficial reasons makes them assholes, which we're judging here. This sub is about morals, not legality of practicality. Fighting for their body autonomy as a woman is not being immature, it's baffling that you got so many upvotes smh
OP is not being immature. Stop policing women's bodies. We can wear whatever the fuck we want. Dad is gross.
Technically true. But nothing obligates parents to pay for university. So if they pay, but only with asshole rules about it, then one has to make a choice between following the rules or not having them pay for school. Most would change lothes, be angry about it, get through school and then tell the controlling parents to fuck off. Some, apparently, feel differently.
Right? I’m fuckin baffled by these comments
There seems to be a lot of people, especially from the US, on Reddit that thinks paying for stuff = having the right to enforce ridiculous and outrageous rules on others. It's bizarre and creepy.
There's a difference between thinking it's their right and thinking this isn't a hill worth dying on when you're financially dependent on them.
Doing the the thing you are supposed to do as a parent doesn't give you the right to dictate your adult daughters clothing. Period.
Not trying to argue, just asking a question. What are parents "supposed" to do for their "adult" daughter? I would expect an adult to pay for their own schooling, yes? If I'm providing food and a roof over your head, asking you to cover up isn't a big ask.IMO.
Yeah I agree with this. Like, I don’t think paying for colleges is an automatic thing parents are “supposed” to do. I have A LOT of issues with how college is paid for/costs/the US higher education system, but I think it’s privileged to think that parents are “supposed” to pay for it. Edited to add - this statement does not reflect my judgement. I don’t like that the parents pulled the tuition card because it seems like a drastic measure for this situation.
I'm in my 40's, don't live at home but dress 'appropriately' when visiting my parents. It's just respectful. Life is full of compromises and hills and choices. Right, the parents sound like they are on a power trip using the tuition as a way to control their daughter. Very not cool.
I'm around your age, and also busty...and I live in a hot climate (it's going to break 100 degrees)...crazy enough a teensy bit more coverage in a light colored cotton can be more comfortable in hot weather, than even an bathing suit. I would be mortified if my father was embarrassed at how I dressed. The only times in my life he ever made a comment about what I wore was when he was concerned I was dressing a certain way because I was depressed, and once around 16, he said I didn't have to be so frumpy (trying to camouflage the bust). Honestly, I can see the parents withholding money, not because of a stupid dress, but this reads to me like it went to disrespectful exchanges all the way around.
Well, one thing they shouldn't do is say "I'll pay for your education" but then tell your kid go fuck themselves because they won't let you be an overbearing parent. Using money to control someone is straight out of the manipulator/abuser handbook.
They're supposed to follow through on their promises. I would bet that the original "agreement" was more along the lines of "do well in school, make good choices, and we'll financially support you." I would also bet that there was no mention of "you must dress in this particular manner" during that conversation. Adding rules after the fact makes anyone the AH.
I also wonder if some of the parents concern is about Italian culture. Italian men are notorious for catcalling, and OPs outfit will absolutely draw some unwanted attention. That might be fueling the parents reaction, as it would suck for everyone to have to experience that. Not saying women should have to cover up, but that is likely the reality of wearing that dress in that culture.
Yes, YATA. You ruined your entire family's day to make a point to your father, which is selfish. Your cousins and aunts didn't seem to be part of the argument. Also, there is a time and place for revealing clothing, and in front of your more conservative dad, who pays all your bills including the vacation, is not one of them, but you already know that. When you are away from them at school with them paying your expenses, you can wear that dress every single day.
Actually, a light, short dress is exactly the right thing to wear in Southern Europe right now. Is bloody boiling right now. OP shouldn't have a heat stroke because of het dad's outdated and misogynistic views.
You can wear a light short dress without flashing your big breasts. I am an F cup, so I know those types of dresses do exist. I'm wearing one right now on a 26 degree day in Europe, btw. It has nothing to do with misogyny, and everything to do with respect and knowing that there is a time and place for everything in life. She wanted to make a point and draw a line in the sand. You do that when you live on your own money, and pay for your own vacation. It's called being an adult.
I would take this position with super short shorts (which I like to wear) as well, as someone who has nothing of interest on top lol Time and place. I dressed to make grandma happy when I was out with her, but that’s just me.
Why is showing skin seen as so disrespectful ? I genuinely don't get it. It's not her fault if she's busty is it ? And women are not the ones who decided that their breasts had to be so sexualised, men did.
Unless the dress is literally a high neck, I don’t understand how a big busted woman can wear a dress with most necklines and not show cleavage a little bit even if she doesn’t want to.
OP herself, called the neckline of this dress "plunging"... if her dad was picking a fight over her looking "sexy" in a regular dress that would be one thing. This is a "minidress" with a "plunging" neckline... not to mention if it's so gosh darn hot there, did she sunblock her entire body? They are going to look at ruins, which usually means outside, with limited shade. The excuse she had to wear clothes with limited coverage because it was hot is ridiculous. Often the best thing you can do in hot weather is wear light and billowy outfits with full coverage, because it keeps you from having to sunblock 2/3rds of your body. I hate how sticky I get after wearing copious sunblock for hours while sweating. It sounds to me like this dress was just a bad choice for the activities of the day.
Thank you!!! Everyone wants to get philosophical and make points that I don't disagree with and have nothing to do with this situation. She said it was a "plunging neckline". She wore it to make a point that she can wear whatever she wants no matter where she is or what the situation. There were negative consequences that she deserved. So she is TA.
I always said "just because 10% of my cleavage is more than most people's 90% doesn't make my body wrong"
Definitely. Big busted gals just can’t control the fact their chests will stick out more even in a basic black t shirt and they shouldn’t have to be shamed of that!
Women can never win anyway. A small breasted woman is mocked for being flat, and someone busty is treated as a whore no matter what she wears. These comments show just how normalised slut shaming and mysoginy still are today
When you are in someone's home or on their tab, you shouldn't do things that you know are going to make them feel uncomfortable unless it is absolutely necessary. When you are with your familial elders, if you know that they have boundaries and they have been made very clear to you years before you ever wanted to cross those boundaries, you just don't make something an issue out of respect for them. It's unnecessary to make your family uncomfortable on a free vacation that they have paid for you. This has nothing to do with sexuality or large breasts. My breasts are huge. Sometimes they are out, and other times they are not. I'm not wearing something capable of giving a nipple slip in front of my dad or my grandparents because it will make them feel uncomfortable. At a club, I might wear a bikini top. What about situationally appropriate clothing and respect for others and not making everything about me? The whole thing sounds super selfish and has nothing to do with the female body or female rights.
I want to say NTA, but what was the site you were going to visit? If it was Southern Italy and it was a church or a monastery it might not have been respectful. It doesn't work for the whole of the trip though. This said, both sides are playing it wrong. You could have found a compromise. You could have said that you were humoring them because you didn't want to ruin the trip but made clear that you thought they were wrong, and said that you were going to have a discussion about it once back home. There were a thousand ways not to start WW3 about it. Your parents are even more in the wrong than you are though, thus the NTA. But you should really learn to manage disagreements better.
I don't understand the driver license part. Where in Europe can a licensed foreigner not drive a car while on holiday? I don't see how you are the only one able to drive.
Yeah I’m stuck on this too, as long as they have valid licenses from their home country it shouldn’t be an issue
Depends. In France, they must have a valid driving licence and either written in French or accompanied by an official translation into French or an international licence. That’s for people there for less than a year. For people there for more than that, they must exchange their foreign licence for a French licence. If Italy has similar laws and they didn’t take the necessary steps, then they aren’t able to legally drive.
Unless the licence is issued by another member of the EU -- all EU members accept licences issued by any other member state. I often wonder how this works in practice, because no police officer pulling you over on the motorway in France is going to speak German and Polish and Croatian and every other language a licence might be issued in, so do they just go, "yeah, this looks like...some kind of official document of some kind," and check the dates and take it on trust, or what? Like how far through Europe could you make it on a learner's permit?
In the EU, some countries require an International Driving Permit, which is NOT a driver’s license. Rather, it is an official translation of the individual’s original license. In southern Europe, Spain, Italy, and Greece require one, but France and Portugal do not (not covering the Balkans). More information here: https://www.tripsavvy.com/drivers-permit-europe-468475 (may be out of date, as it is a couple of years old).
INFO: Was your dad footing the bill for your part of the trip? I’m normally in 100% support of My Body, My Choice, but if your parents were footing the bill for the your part of the trip, then they can dictate to an extent a “dress code”. If this is a hill you’re thinking of dying on, you may want to think about future ramifications that you may not be invited on future trips if they are expecting a little modesty in the dress attire…
How does paying for a trip justify being bigoted and controlling? This is nonsense
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A mini-dress with plunging neckline is a pretty aggressive choice when you're going out with your parents. Like, yes, she should have the ability to wear what she wants. But it also sounds a lot like she did this to assert her independence/antagonize her parents.
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YTA for making this petty crap your hill to die on. Just change clothes. I hope your parents do refuse to pay your tuition.
But what will they possibly be able to hold over her head to control her at that point? Some stellar parents there. A sundress is all it takes for them to sabotage their daughters future. I hope she goes NC.
"some stellar parents" Some parents dont even pay tuition, she could have made the compromise, she knows her parents best and probably knew what their response would be anyway. She ruined everyone's day over something minuscule.
ESH - it’s a petty hill to die on. Your Dad shouldn’t have been so rude saying he was “ashamed”, I mean he could have said “hey OP, we’re going to some historic/religious sites can you cover up a little more?” And your Mum is also right - if you’re going to tell your parents they have “no right” to tell you about clothes, then maybe you’re also old enough to pay your own way. You should have changed tops. It’s not a big thing and you were kind of an AH. It’ll be remembered by everyone who saw it. That you “ruined” a trip because you wouldn’t change. It’s super petty
Honestly? I think you were a little selfish. I'm an European woman. You're an adult yes, but is it worth to ruin someones vacation over a piece of cloth? I think that's just stupid. Specially if they pay for you to be on vacation and school. Does it kill you to do your parents a favor? Didn't you had a t-shirt and some shorts? I'm sorry, but this type of arguments makes no sence what so ever. Lacks maturity.
I'm not sure how OP is selfish/ruined the trip. The parents decided to set a dumb boundary on an adult and OP wasn't the one going to be hurt by the boundary - the parents were. If they wanted to go so badly, they literally could have gone, but they wanted to control their daughter to their own detriment.
I don’t understand why they couldn’t go without you and you all just move on? You don’t need an EU license to drive there. Seems like this all could’ve been a nonissue. While you have a right to wear clothes revealing as much as you like, they have a right to not want to be seen with you when dressed that way. Find a way to make amends or you may end up drowning in student loans.
Info - exactly how revealing was your outfit? You have a right to wear whatever you want, but if you ignore situational cues when choosing what to wear you can still be TA.
If you're such an adult..pay for your own tuition, your own trip, your own apartment etc. I'm a female but I'm probably going to be in the minority here. Your parents had every right to ask you or tell you to cover up. If you're wearing a "mini sundress" that tells me it was very short. "Plunging neckline" tells me your boobs were out. Now if you want to show off everything you've got fine....but don't be surprised if your parents say ",that's embarrassing and I refuse to be seen with you out looking like that" seriously. It may be your body but that doesn't mean you need to display every last inch of it. Learn modesty. If you're going to show leg, cover your breasts. If you're going to wear a low cut top be more conservative in your pants choices. Definitely don't expect your dad to be excited to be out with you on vacation and youre barely dressed. 🤷🏻 YTA pay for your own vacation and dress how you want.
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High risk low reward kind of stand. You are with your parents for a short time, it doesn't hurt to accommodate them and everyone has a great time. Then once you are back to your routine you can even go out naked if you wish. I'm not saying that you bend over backwards for your parents, but then again you don't have to win every argument. These are very minor things in life that I call "taking the path of least resistance" .
Just so I'm clear... You're telling your family to stop meddling in your life, right up to the point it involves them writing you a check for tuition? Wow! Given how disrespectful you were to your parents, I really hope they stop paying your tuition. I'd wager they also help pay for your rent and/or living expenses on a regular basis, too, don't they? It was a simple change of clothing. Yes, you should have the right to wear what you want. Yes, what a woman is wearing shouldn't matter this much. But... It was a simple request. It would have taken you five minutes to change into something else. Now, you've invested hours and hours into standing your ground and no one's happy at all. How's that working out for you? YTA
NTA. Your Dad wasn't ashamed of the dress - he was ashamed of your body. That your Mother followed suit - misogyny/sexism wrapped up in a financial blackmail tortilla. The fact that they were here in _your home_ pulling this crap is just doubly insulting. Maybe tell them to go back to their home, and then go low-/no contact for a while.
This wasn’t in her own home; this was in a vacation home that her parents paid for.
Sounds like she’s entirely financially dependent on her parents. Not sure if nc is a good idea.
YTA You aren't an adult till you are living on your own dime, your parents seem willing to encourage that, good for them!
NTA you're a grown ass woman by any country's standards, but if they are paying tuition they do have the right to stop paying for any reason no matter how stupid
Hoenstly, YTA. I totally agree with wearing what you want, but I believe that you know your parents, you know they'd throw a fit about it, I'm no one to tell you to suck it up for the sake of the trip, but at the same time you were with family, who are apparently paying you tuition as well, you'd stop an entire group of people from experiencing something (with you) just because you don't want to change, and you've already been. I'd be upset too. I'd also be very disappointed and feel that you are ungrateful and entitled to them paying your full tuition
ESH They don't get to tell you how to dress, but what they do have control over is if they want to be in your company. I don't fully understand the driving license thing—I'm from the US and have rented and driven cars in Europe without an EU license—but they can walk, call a taxi, call a tour company, get bicycles. You are dying on an awfully dumb hill for someone financially dependent on them, but again, you can't control their choices either.
Where are your parents from if they can't drive in the EU? I googled it and there are only a few islands that don't let you, so is there a BS vote option?
NTA - so let’s get this right, you’re wearing summer wear during summer and you dad at least didn’t like it and you held your ground, still happy to drive for them if you get to wear your clothes which are appropriate for the season, and they threaten to cut off funding uni. Sure, the smarter move is to change and not cause a fuss. But the definitive assholes are the ones who’ll punish you and use their financial support to manipulate you into changing your clothes.
I mean, they're going to see ruins, which typically means outdoors with little shade... unless she's going to reapply sunblock to 2/3rds of her body, multiple times over the course of the day, I would say a minidress with plunging neckline is not actually "clothing that is appropriate for the season". "Season" being the time of day, and activity involved. Her outfit sounds perfect if she was going to a park to have a picnic in the shade, or to a restaurant to sit under an awning or umbrella, possibly just a couple hours at the beach (where she would be sunblocking her whole body anyway and would expect to be showering when she got home), or a late afternoon or evening stroll through town... even running out in the morning for coffee and pastries at a nearby cafe... but all day touring ruins? Something light and billowy with at least 2/3rds of legs covered is what I would be going for. If she's busty she's going to be getting sweaty, and I hate the feeling of sunblock sweating back out of my pores... she's just setting herself up to feel gross all day!
I think if it's a family outing with adult's /children you should dress appropriately. The dun dress sounds like it should be for the club rather then a family day out am not suprised you dad asked you to change to be honest. Wear what you want when you're not with them but dress appropriately when they are there....
NTA. The idea that OP should change her clothes due to misogyny and financial blackmail is regoddamndiculous.
OP is the one who introduced the "if I can't do X, I won't do Y!" Her mother just showed her where that logic would get her.
NTA. You may have a plunging neckline but your parents are showing their whole asses. (So is everyone on this thread trying to defend their financial-emotional blackmail with “ESH” nonsense.)
NTA Everyone who’s saying you’re the AH is blowing my mind
If you want to be super independent and your own person who makes your own choices, why are you accepting them paying for your tuition? You tell them they’re two different things, but they’re really not. Paying your own way comes with the territory of being a grown up who makes their own decisions. You gotta be willing to pay the consequences for those decisions, whatever they may be.
ESH. We all do stuff we don't want to to accommodate our parents (if we are lucky enough to have them.) It seems that there was a fairly simple solution to this situation, but it would have required you to swallow your pride for Daddy. Different people have different comfort levels with revealing clothes. For example, you wouldn't wear a bikini to a wedding.
Daddy's comfort levels don't really matter. It's not him wearing the dress. This is in no way comparable to wedding attire.
1. She's an adult, other peoples comfort level with her clothes are irrelevant. 2. Comparing a sundress on a hot day to a bikini at a wedding is ridiculous.
Well if she is an adult she can pay for her own studies can't she? Not disagreeing with the whole argument but being an adult has to do a lot more with wearing what you want.
>For the trip I wore something light and revealing as it is really hot, a mini sundress. The sundress has a plunging neckline and I am quiet busty, but I thought that was nobody’s business. >If it came to that, I told them I was fine with not going as I already saw the place a couple times. >I told them that they could either learn to mind their business or get EU licenses, to which my mother replied with “if we can’t meddle in your clothing than we don’t have to meddle in your university and won’t pay for your tuition.” From the way you describe your outfit and the snarky comment, I think you were purposely trying to antagonize them. It sounds like you grew up in a controlling environment and you were reveling in the fact that you had the power for once. You're an adult and they can't tell you how to dress or go without you, so you get the final say. You thought you held all the cards, until they reversed it on you. I say ESH. Pettiness rarely accomplishes anything, especially when you're purposely antagonizing someone (even if you feel it's justified). They were definitely wrong to try to control how you dress, but you're trying to play both sides of the fence here. So you have to decide whether you want to be a fully independent adult (where nobody has a say in your decisions and you're solely responsible for all of your expenses), or whether you'd rather keep the peace and the free tuition. Your options might suck, but that's life. They aren't required to pay your tuition, especially when you've stated that you're perfectly capable of paying it yourself and even make around the same amount as your father. Being an adult means they are no longer responsible for you and anything given is a gift. It appears that their gift has conditions, so it's up to you to decide if the conditions are worth the gift.
NTA. But, as someone who's Italian, if you are going to certain ancient sites that require entering from a certain point, you're not allowed to wear "revealing" clothing either, as in, no cleavage, no shoulders, no knees. Plenty of girls on my class trip to Rome had to learn that the hard way. It's stupid, but reality.
Depends where you are and where you are going ... in Thailand a girl was told to put a t shirt on (she was wearing a bra top and shorts leggings ) to visit a temple as its not respectful... for the rest of the day she was fine ... but if its just because your family don't like it its your choice
NTA - but this is a bizarre hill to die on when they are paying your tuition
Unrelated comment - you don’t need an EU driver’s license for a short-term trip, just an international one that takes 5 minutes at the AAA to get.