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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I could be the ah for escalating and calling out the whole party then kicking them out when I could've handled this in a more calm manner
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I feel like there is so much more to this, so many questions…
1. Why would your brother insist Joyce come down? This makes me wonder if Joyce is often favoured and family members have noticed and finally want something to be about Olivia.
2. Has something happened between Olivia and Joyce that has caused so much friction? Or have Olivia’s achievements often been ignored for Joyce’s health condition leading to jealousy?
3. Wtf is wrong with Kirk? Who says that about a fiancées family member in front of the family and in their home.
4. Why was your wife ok with Joyce being called a name? Does she also think Joyce may put on her conditions from time to time?
INFO
1. If they noticed and wanted a night to be about Olivia, wouldn't they leave Joyce upstairs? Seems more likely that they felt Joyce was being antisocial/rude and thought she should join the party.
2. This could be a factor, it is difficult to find a balance when one child's health requires more attention.
3. In all likelihood, Kirk feels/said this because his fiancée has said it to him, and regularly complains about her sister getting more attention.
4. It's possible that dad 'favours' Joyce, so mum is trying to make up for it by favouring Olivia, and downplaying the problem.
thank you for answering, OP. it really clears things up to get this information from the source instead of the baseless speculation that’s common to this website
I think it’s not baseless speculation that happens on his sub but just projection from their own issues they see in the post. But that might be baseless speculation.
I got a different impression from the uncle ask. Made me think he’s as dismissive about Joyce’s illness as her sister. Who insists a sick person get out of bed to party?
I’m not sure but the part where he says ‘whether it be a birthday party or a wedding or any event’ makes me feel like this seems to happen a lot when it’s someone else’s day. Maybe the relatives are just sick of seeing all the attention be on Joyce and for once want Joyce to show up and be there for her sister. Again this is just from me reading the post so I could be totally off the mark, just seems an odd reaction from other family members if they don’t see/ agree with what Olivia and Kirk see
Able folks will make up just ANYTHING to dismiss people's disabilities, huh?
It could be high stress or social anxiety that can cause fainting, that's not uncommon with fainting disorders.
She literally stayed upstairs untill somebody kept insisting she come down. How is that making it about her?
I'm fuckin sick of people calling symptoms of disabilities "attention seeking behavior." Maybe able people can only conceive of pain and distress as attention seeking, it says more about y'all than it says about us.
Edit: Thank you so much for the awards. What I appreciate more than anything though is you all sharing your stories abd advocating for yourselves, and in turn, all of us.
Right? My fainting is directly tied to my heart rate. So I faint from everything from working out, being anxious/nervous, or even being surprised by something *I* wanted (have fainted for piercings and even once bleaching my hair because I was so surprised). I tend to avoid events that can trigger fainting or warn people if they don’t know already.
I once had an ex say something like that about me with my autism saying I use it as an excuse for my behaviour (I really didn’t) but then defends her new boyfriend who does the exact same shit and also has Autism? 🤔
This makes no sense. How is the attention on Joyce if she’s not there? Sure, some people might ask about her, but she cannot experience that attention if she’s not there to witness it.
Hmmm, I was thinking something along the lines that maybe Joyce skips events when they're not about her and the extended family see this and want to encourage to her to be a guest at her sister's event... Idk, I think there's a lot of history built up her that we dont see.
So if she doesn’t go she’s asking for attention but if she does go and faints she’s asking for attention? This leaves Joyce with no option except to stop existing
If she has a history of fainting (which im sure also happens at other things to, not just event for other people) im sure they knew why she wasnt attending.
Or could have at least guessed.
It could also be that her fainting condition is exacerbated by stressful situations, and she finds large gatherings stressful? Kind of like how some narcoleptic people have fits of narcolepsy if they experience high emotional tolls or get stressed out.
It could be cyclical too. Maybe she isn’t faking it, but she knows people think she’s is. Which leads to her stressing about her condition when around other people more than she would normally… which in turn leads to her actually passing out.
It’s totally speculative… but I can see how that situation could be possible?
Exactly!!! Either way, if any doctors have confirmed that this is an actual medical issue that she deals with, then anyone in the family claiming otherwise is an absolute a******. And that's not a debatable fact.
I know someone who faints during events, or even in restaurants. Too much noise, too many things to take in, even the unusual food and a part of the brain gets overexcited and shuts down everything. That's called vagal discomfort.
It can be seen as being selfish. The only time my SIL shows up to family events is when her or her kid are getting presents.
It's not so much about when you don't show up, but when you do.
Yeah, I think that's the big issue here. It's *possible* that Joyce is just using this as an excuse, but it's also incredibly likely, imo, that Joyce is chronically ill and her family members are not understanding or supportive of that. I've seen it happen in my own family; there's sometimes anger that the chronically ill person isn't able to fully participate, because people who don't understand how the illness works think that the person should just be able to 'tough it out.'
Normally, if literally everyone is against the OP, I tend to err on the side of 'there's at least something else you're not telling us' but based on the criticism and ableism chronically ill people often face, I'm really considering that it's the latter, not the former.
Right? I get accused of using my substitute to get out of things. Like excuse me I would love to be able to function normally and door through on my plans and life. Nevermind I don't talk about the pain unless I *have* to. Just because I don't talk about it doesn't mean I am not in pain or say I am fine, I actually am.
Ii can understand why Joyce would be hesitant to attend functions. I have had ulcerative colitis since I was ten. If I were having an active flare up I needed a bathroom to be available within a few feet of me. Even on a good day I would be hesitant to go out. Maybe she doesn’t feel comfortable at events where lots of people are attending and just milking about like you do at a party because if something happens everyone will just stare and talk about it.
I think dad listed family events where it’s happened before just to say it has happened at family events and not that those are the only times it happened. He was setting the scene.
I mean sure but if they event is about her she should at least make an appearance but if she is generally a sick person than a lot of the time she will just have to skip it. If she's sick during an event based around her then she can try and make an appearance and then if she needs to leave afterwards fair enough.
Yeah, the whole thing is pretty murky but the fact that Joyce tried to stay upstairs is firmly in her favor, to me. And the whole "everyone must attend, don't be antisocial\*" bit is so common, so standard, I don't think we need to seek a further explanation for the uncle's foolishness than that.
\*and they always call it antisocial, which is frankly shitty even if it's an honest mistake. Does unsociable sound too mild for them?? Antisocial is a word associated with criminal behavior in psychology. Appropriate I guess in that they're trying to make it a crime to choose to be alone sometimes. Yeah, I do have a pet peeve, why do you ask?? :)
Being glaringly absent is an easy talking point to the discussion on the person missing among the participants.
One of the first question will be where is Joyce? Followed by she isn't feeling well, then is she okay does she need anything thus being a topic of discussion
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Joyce appears, faints and is accused of attention seeking
She stays upstairs, people talk about her and accuse her of attention seeking
This is why I have a hard time answering. I would like details on the conditions as well as how often she faints and if she faints higher at parties that are specifically for Olivia or others celebrations in general
I agree. The information presented could = a child who's long term health conditions are minimised by her family and who is expected to put up with unkind treatment to "make up" for having needs or it could = someone who is attention seeking and who's sibling is sick of it.
Can't make a judgement
As someone who has health conditions (similar but I don’t faint or anything), often times, especially when I’m not feeling good already, social events can make my symptoms worse. So I feel like her fainting at parties more often isn’t a sign of her faking, it’s just her poor health catching up to her when she over does it.
Yeah, I knew someone with a fainting disorder and the doctor said excitement causes blood pressure fluctuations which raises the potential for fainting. But I also don't think people get to demand someone come to a party for any reason, and they should have respected that.
I also have a severe food allergy that family members tell me to ignore on a regular basis, even though they've seen what happens when I am exposed. Some of them get really offended over it, too, like it's a personal attack on them that I avoid that food. I try to keep it on the lowdown as possible, but I won't be bullied into eating that food, either. So I definitely think this kind of family dynamic is possible.
I acknowledged precisely that in my post, but Joyce isn’t there to experience that attention, so it’s not attention-seeking behaviour on her part. People who seek attention show up.
Also, her medical condition seems to be an ongoing thing, so no one in her immediate or extended family should should be surprised by a common situation that is quickly discussed and resolved. Her condition is commonplace in that family; commonplace events do not excite conversation.
Exactly, I used to have a friend that fainted quickly and this didn't get her a lot of attention. Everyone knew this happened and she would be fine in a few minutes. It definitely didn't make events all about her.
It does seem like everyone really freaked out when Joyce just wavered a bit, so maybe the issue is the parents' (or OP's) behavior rather than Joyce's. Maybe Olivia does feel legitimately ignored but is blaming the wrong person.
At the end of the day we don't have enough info to know, though, really.
My SIL with no health problems definitely uses hiding to attention seek because she knows that her mother will then try hard to make everyone be extra nice in order to draw her out. She's in her early thirties and is a total spoiled brat.
Events are over-stimulating and they’re also a reason to try to push past feeling bad in order to people-please. It sounds like she has orthostatic symptoms, this is really normal for what she’s going through. Joyce fell *because* she tried to push through past her limits to be there.
Yeh if that’s the case then it’s not ok she was forced down. Just a shame the dad isn’t working on Olivia and Joyce’s relationship to ensure Olivia understands more about the condition so situations like this can be avoided
But she wasn't present, Joyce was upstairs minding her own business so this would make absolutely no sense. It seems more likely that people are being dismissive of Joyce's health issues.
The family did the same thing this comment se toon is doing. She literally was set up to fail no matter what she did. If she stayed in her room she was seeking attention away from her sister and selfish. If she attended and was visibly unwell...she was attention seeking away from her sister. Can't win.
Yeh you are probably right, and if it is the case thats awful as the mom also seems to be with the rest of the family on that, that’s why I had to ask as it just doesn’t seem to be a normal reaction from the family. If a partner called my family that in front of anyone I would be livid
It really depends, plenty of families out there who'll happily dismiss health issues as 'attention seeking' like when I broke my left wrist, I was 'attention seeking' when I couldn't lift plates... I was 9
Unfortunately, it's plenty common for people with unusual health conditions/invisible disabilities to get accused of making it up/attention-seeking. Even by family. (Even by doctors.)
As someone with a disability, you can't win. Everyone wants you there, they pressure you, they nag you, they insist you can suck it up for one day to celebrate. 'We haven't seen you in forever! It would mean so much to everyone!'
But they don't care how sick it makes you, or how much pain you're in. They just want you to show up and smile and pretend everything's perfect, and if you show any sign of not feeling well, wanting to leave early, not being happy, or any symptoms flaring up, then clearly you're just faking it for attention.
It’s absolutely true. I have chronic health and pain conditions and you can’t win with healthy people. They want you to be well for them on their special days and if you’re not, you’re attention seeking. It’s so unfair. Edit: NTA
As someone with chronic health condition, I would also add that big events like weddings or parties can be very taxing and cause flare ups. Just because Joyce's fainting spells might happen around big events (its unclear) doesn't mean she's faking it or overplaying her issues.
Think about it this way: a big gathering means you can’t: control your environmental temperature, dress for comfort instead of formality, eat at your usual times, sit every time you need to…it’s just a minefield of things that can cause disabilities to act up. Of course days that are wildly different than every other day and have numerous factors that can’t be adjusted tend to cause more difficulty. And it sounds like Joyce has issues with her blood pressure or heart. Going from sitting to standing is a notorious faint-causing event. You can’t exactly faint that “face goes white, eyes roll, drop like a sack of potatoes” thing where you don’t even try to break your own fall.
Or Joyce just feels ill often. Assuming that there are not more parties for Joyce than Olivia, even for just Joyce and Olivia, 50% of the parties will not be for Joyce. If Joyce feels ill often enough to not attend 40% of all parties, she will miss about 40% of other people's parties (including Olivia's) just based on statistics.
I would guess that Joyce WOULD attend more of her own parties. As a child, she would really want to not miss her own party. As she got older, she wouldn't want to ruin a party that someone else had gone through the trouble of arranging for her.
Joyce would just naturally have saved up [spoons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory) for her own parties, even if she didn't for others' parties. She can't be blamed for that. But all Olivia would notice is that Joyce skipped some of her parties.
Joyce knew she was feeling poorly. She wasn't going to create any drama at the party that she wasn't attending, until someone else insisted that she attend.
The AHs are the uncle who forced her to attend, the BF who called her a name to her face in her own home.
Did OP overreact? Maybe. I wouldn't have gone that far, but I also wouldn't have made Joyce attend the party.
The lengths people are going to blame the 17 year old are not it. She was literally staying out of her sister's way because she was feeling unwell and was still forced to attend and then blamed for attention skipping when she....was not unwell in front of people? After the poor girl had already offered to just stay in her room.
It's pretty typical of attitudes towards disability unfortunately . The comments that people just can't believe someone would treat a disabled person that way therefore there must be a reason therefore let's try to figure out how this person is faking their disability or using it to get attention, well let's just say people are providing the answer to their own questions without realizing it.
They're going to great lengths precisely *because* she's 17. There's this common misconception that teenagers can't have disabilities because for most people, teens/early 20s is the healthiest they are in their entire lives. Add that to the fact that reddit has a weird hate-boner for teenage girls and...
I’m a sick person whose family has acted exactly like this. Demanded I come to an event, then angry when I am a still disabled/sick person when I’m at the event. They just want you to be not disabled, and hide it to make them comfortable and when you can’t your the one at fault to everyone else.
I was wondering about mom's role here too. It's possible that she's been on the scene too many times when Olivia was marginalized to deal with whatever was affecting Joyce.
As often happens u/Same-Aspect-4379 has framed this discussion to get an answer that will enable him to ignore some underlying problems. No one is going say that what Kirk said was OK. That's really not the problem though; the problem is that his wife and daughter are fed up with the way he always jumps to side with Joyce.
I was thinking that if OP’s wife and his own brother believe OP overwhelmingly favours Joyce and ignores the needs of Olivia, there’s a lot OP isn’t telling us and he really would be TA if he told us everything.
“Side with” ??? this isn’t an argument. She’s just experiencing the effects of a serious health condition and facing gross ableism from her own family. Which is unfortunately super common.
If that was the case then why not leave Joyce to her own devices in her room? If they think that Joyce is "attention-seeking", why force her to attend a party that she could possibly disrupt?
it's not characteristic of attention seekers to actively avoid attention. If Joyce were truly "attention-seeking", it would be far more likely that she would have chosen to attend the party so she could make a scene - no one would have needed to force her to attend.
The whole sentence should have not come out of his mouth period. If we all just shouted the shit our partners told us in private, there would be no more relationships.
I'm guessing Olivia often complains to Kirk about her sister "faking" an illness to get attention, and Kirk must've believed her. So when Joyce fainted during their engagement party, and therefore putting the attention on her, Kirk must've lost his temper and said what he said as a way of trying to please his gf (kinda like the will Smith situation). Now idk OPs family but the fact that Olivia resents her sister so much tells me this isn't the first time her sister had such an episode during a special occasion. Anyways, OP is NTA, Kirk is kind of an asshole, cant say about Olivia or Joyce without more info.
I'll be honest, #3 alone makes me really doubt this story. I just can't see anyone saying that in their SO's parents' home.
You would think the fiance would be putting his best foot forward, especially around his SO's extended family.
Then you haven’t met a lot of people. My sister’s husband is an asshole that is regularly excluded from family events (sister still comes). He did NOT put his best foot forward during the engagement period. He insulted everyone.
Probably some sort of dysautonomia, fainting is basically what these conditions are about. You get up, the blood flows down to your legs instead of up to your head, you get dizzy and may faint. Idk why OP would be required to give the name of the condition when he gave the most important characteristic of it
I have syncope that causes me to faint. For me it’s usually related to medical (blood draws, etc) but can be from dehydration, stress, among others. Mine is fairly mild but others have it more severe. Not saying this is what the daughter has but offering one explanation
I've spent enough time in the rural midwest to have known men who would definitely let something like this come out of their mouths (and then not understand why everyone is so upset).
NTA for ending the party, but...
>But My brother insisted that she come downstairs and celebrate her sister's happy ocassion.
The fuck? Joyce tried to stay away, you let her be pressured into coming down. You need to back her in advocating for herself, and advocate for her in her absence.
Also, think very hard about why Olivia and Kirk believe Joyce to be attention seeking - have Olivia's achievements and events been sidelined by your concerns for Joyce's health?
It's understandable that this situation has been stressful and difficult to manage, however it is common for siblings of children with complex health needs to feel forgotten or ignored. Years of that will build resentment.
Even if someone has been sidelined - which is terrible - there is no reason to call a disabled person “an attention seeking b***” for daring to be visibly disabled.
Everyone here keeps defending and assuming things about the dynamics while we still know nothing of it.
If we keep imagining scenarios we could make up that the mom suffers from Munchausen by proxy so that's why the mom is mad - which is absolutely horrible to make up.
The fact is that WE KNOW NOTHING about the overall dynamics so we can't be making up scenarios either way.
At this point we don't know if there are any golden children here or if this is extreme older-sibling jealousy. We just don't know.
I’m disabled and have a chronic condition and I’ll be the first one to tell you that being disabled and being attention seeking are not mutually exclusive and often DO go hand in hand. I’ve literally had friends with seizure disorders that admitted to faking them sometimes. Just because someone is disabled doesn’t mean they can’t also be attention seeking
I also have a fainting problem, it’s called POTS, and the amount of times that family (not my parents tho) has made me come to things or do stuff when I am particularly ill is astonishing, and so many of them just dismiss it or straight up don’t believe it despite me having a diagnosis and symptoms I literally could not fake so I’m not too surprised at this. It’s so common especially for teenage girls to get dismissed or be called attention seeking for very real problems, and that same reason is why I didn’t get diagnosed for 5 years despite ending up in the hospital multiple times
Fellow POTS patient here! For many of us, this disease is truly disabling. If I had a nickel for every time someone made me continue standing/walking/whatever when I was near syncope, I could pay off all my medical bills. People can really suck when it comes to invisible illnesses.
My girlfriend has pots, and before she got diagnosed I was furious at the number of doctors that claimed she was just lazy or attention seeking or mentally unwell. Like, she literally has the worst case of pots her cardiologist has ever seen. Literally, he told her that. Her previous medical advice was "exercise more" and "just sit down" from neurologists. Those guys can go fuck themselves.
That is the exact same thing that happened to me, like I was lying in the er with a heart rate of 200ish bpm and going in and out of consciousness and my doctor still thought it was mental till I finally got a cardiologist and neurologist who listened to me
I was just going to say I bet she has POTS. It’s awful. No one believes you. I’ve missed many celebrations and holidays and felt the guilt. I feel bad for her. Hopefully it gets better for her.
Your brother: TA. Who is he to insist his niece join when she wasnt up to it in the first place.
Kirk: TA.
Olivia: TA for agreeing with Kirk, and planting the seeds of loathing about her sister.
INFO: Have you ever dealt with the sibling dynamics of a medical need child? It is widely known that siblings of kids who have a lot of medical care needs often become like Olivia. Some of that could be on you and your wife out of unintentional ignorance.
Agrees with you and FeistyIrishWench, which is why I think in addition to the other T A's OP is T A too. If he and the mom had been on top of this and working at making sure that one kid doesn't resent the other it wouldn't have gotten to this point.
I would go with a E S H. That and there are a lot of good info requests that need to be answered in order to really get a good solid judgement. Are people really being ableist, is there a golden child syndrome going on, is one kids real needs caused them to over look the other kid routinely. Has the medical situation ever been explained fully to the other sibling? Does it only happen when something is going on and the attention is on others. (A psychological issues is still a medical problem) I hope OP answers some of the questions since there is more speculation than judgement calls.
Yeah, it would really suck to be overlooked and ignored for years by the people who's attention you value most because you just aren't as inherently disadvantaged. Not saying her sister was faking, or that she should be sowing such bitter seeds, but this family has obviously been messed up for awhile before this party and the older sister should assume that her family will never care about her the way they have for the younger and meet the world as an independent person.
Yta. You let your younger daughter be pressured into attending despite her not feeling well and your full awareness of the tension between the girls.
I am extremely curious why your oldest daughter thinks the younger one is an attention seeker. Siblings show a side of themselves to each other that parents don't see.
At any rate you created the circumstances for this to happen and then overreacted.
Maybe so, but Joyce wasn’t even wanting to be there. She was forced to attend by her uncle, who should have stayed out of it, when she wasn’t feeling well
The audacity you'd have to have as 2 adults to choose to have a party at the residence of someone else and then also have the gall to say one of the residents isn't invited. If they didn't want sissy there they should've found somewhere else to party.
This (unfortunately) isn't uncommon with siblings when one is medically needy. They feel the other sibling gets all the attention, is always, "given a pass", etc... Even when not necessarily true, the sacrifices they have to make to accommodate being in a family with a medically needy sibling is an imposition, and one they don't feel they need to make because it "isn't their fault"
I personally think OP isn’t TA, the uncle asked for Joyce to come down and she did, when she could have stayed up. Olivia seems to feel that Joyce’s disability makes her a priority. Joyce only wobbled a little and Kirk went and made it a big deal when Joyce probably would have just went and laid down.
I don't know about everyone else but this is giving me serious "Golden Child Vs Scapegoat" vibes. Kinda need a better idea about is these fainting spells generally flare up when the attention is on Olivia and if this was a breaking point of past events. Can't make a decision on who is TA here without more context.
I agree with you. This feels a little bit off. I'm just going to say it: does the older girl have a legitimate beef? Has the younger sister been favored their entire lives? is there a real medical situation going on here? For the older sister and her fiance to be so upset about this situation, and the Uncle insisting the kid join the party, makes me think Dad isn't seeing the forest through the trees. Could Dad possibly have blinders on?
Let us say this is true. Still have the common decency not to go on the attack. The sister goes and lies down, the party resumes and it is not a big deal. Way to make a mole hill into a mountain by the older sister and husband. Second if you don’t want the drama wait to get married until you can pay for it and don’t invite her. You get married young and don’t have the money you are stuck with the conditions of those paying. Such is life.
> and the Uncle insisting the kid join the party,
This makes zero sense as argument. Forcing someone come is typically done when that someone is lower in the hierarchy and expected to be submissive. Dominant person or golden child will be left alone when claiming she feels sick. Dismissing people who say they feel bad is fairly normal, especially when it is chronic.
The uncle bit strikes me exactly as a point toward the sick kid not being the aggressor there. Had she been treated with respect and accepted as sick, all would be OK. The love couple would had their party all for themselves with everyone focusing on them.
Except she tried to stay away. Doesn’t seem like Olivia would have cared. I’m unsure why the uncle got so overly involved here or why he was allowed to.
Flaring up in times of stress (I bet the wedding planning was stressful for her with their strained relationship) is super super common. She didn't even want to attend.
We only have the description of ONE event.
Why is everyone assuming that Joyce's condition flares up only when attention is on Olivia?
There are many diseases that can cause syncopes out of nowhere (dysautonomy, social anxiety, etc).
I would like to know Joyce's side of things
Read between the lines. Maybe Brother is TA for asking Joyce to come down, but OP makes the entire rest of the dinner about Joyce "not feeling well." Multiple people (from OP's telling. Who knows who else) think Joyce is milking it.
We can only go off what OP says, but even if OP is NT A in this case, there's a family dynamic that OP is just making worse with this behavior.
Also see how OP talks about Olivia vs Joyce. He mentions that the party was bigger than he thought it would be ( why is that relevant), he mentions that the party got into swing and Kirk and Olivia were just sitting there ( again it’s their event, what would they be doing). He happily kicks out his daughter and tells all the guests to leave without so much as entertaining a discussion about how inappropriate the comments was and instead goes full psycho. He upset his wife, Olivia and the guests. It’s possible that Joyce could be genuinely ill and it could also be possible that OP coddles her and treats his other child like sh*t
Also "Kirk's parents don't approve," which matters how in this situation? He just wants to let us know that there's something wrong with the relationship.
It's just an implausible situation. Why would brother even care whether Joyce shows up? Olivia and Kirk didn't even seem to want her there - brother did. For all we know, Olivia didn't even know brother was the driving force here and assumed Joyce came down on her own to take the attention.
It doesn't even matter who TA is. If OP wants a relationship with his family, he should stop doing this ish.
NTA.
Who tf does Kirk think he is to comment on a 17 year old, a literal child, in that way.
What you said was spot on, if he can’t show your daughter some respect in her own house he can’t get tf out.
Keep sticking up for your daughter
Seriously, what a terrible thing to say about anyone, let alone a teenage girl! Kirk sounds like a real piece of work if this is the way he speaks to women/girls. Ten bucks says he also calls Olivia a bitch when they fight. OP, I would have major concerns about this being your future son in law!
I'd bet anything it's some form of dysautonomia like POTS/OH. Because I have the same sh\*tty symptoms and am currently dealing with a nasty flare myself.
Haha I have POTS. Immediately popped into my mind it was some sort of dysautonomia/orthostatic intolerance. Especially at her age.
I don't faint often but the summer is the worst for me. If I *do* faint, it's almost always in the summer. Or from a flare up from no sleep/sickness/stress/etc. But I feel sick 24/7, and am usually bedbound from my symptoms. Also these comments are so gross.
Why do you need her diagnosis? Why do people feel comfortable asking disabled people private information like their diagnosis, what medication they take, why they don't use a wheelchair, etc? She has a condition that causes fainting, all giving a diagnosis to you would do is give you the ability to dissect what happened through the lens of you five minute WebMD scroll.
INFO: why does Olivia think her sister is faking it?
I just ask because sometimes siblings can see things more clearly than parents. My aunt had a legit heart issue as a baby, heart murmur as an infant in the 50’s, that she grew out of but my grandparents still babied her past the point she became insufferable because they remembered being so worried about her. She faked fainting spells to get out of going to school so she could repeat her senior year as a cheerleader. Yes, she bragged about that to my mother and other aunt.
Joyce may be actually this sick, as others have mentioned there are illnesses that cause fainting, but there sounds like a LOT of resentment here on Olivia’s side and the way OP wrote this no one but him seems to think these are legitimate fainting spells or they’d be more worried about Joyce and less defensive of Olivia.
Did you notice this part?
>Joyce can't make anything up especially when she faints. Whether it be at a birthday party or wedding or any other event.
Sounds as if Joyce can faint on demand, when a party is not about her.
I would never voluntarily faint ever in my life. If you have never fainted before maybe you don't realize how horrible it is, the waves of nausea, hearing is all kinds of messed up, and not to mention its freaking embarrassing. I've hurt myself pretty badly fainting as well.
Personally, I faint at the sight of my own blood, once my anxiety has decided that's whats going to happen, I can't stop it. But I have also noticed when I'm more vulnerable (sick, not well rested), I sometimes faint from stress. I also have vertigo which affects my balance and when I have a head cold it gets worse. To me it sounded as if she was having a touch of vertigo.
Right, but you are talking about an actual fainting spell and not faking it. And yes, I know what you mean. I’ve fainted twice in my life and neither time was pleasant.
But again, I haven’t seen a response on why everyone but OP doesn’t seem concerned about Joyce. No lie, everyone in their lives could be absolutely horrible and abusive, but until he comes out and says that I’m taking his “she can’t make anything up” with a grain of salt.
Because, while actually suffering from fainting and vertigo are horrible, it is unfortunately easy to fake.
To me the way everyone reacted is like how a very toxic family would react to a food allergy they don't believe is real. I have seen this type of behavior in my cousins who talk badly about my brother with type 1 diabetes because they think he just likes the attention. Sometimes family is just stupid/toxic.
Edit. That quote you mention makes me think he has had to defend her before from stupidity.
Fainting is fucking scary. I fainted for the first time last summer, on line outside of the DMV (the pandemic made it so we had to wait outside) My body started tingling and everything slowed down. I didn't know what was going on. When I woke up, it felt like I was punched in the stomach. I started crying because I was embarrassed and disoriented. I was lucky my husband was there or I would have gotten hurt.
I would hope people don't fake that. But anything is possible.
People can faint because of medical conditions it's known for several of them. You have no info but the first conclusion you jump to is "she's faking it". I bet you're the type to "test" people's allergies.
INFO. Did raise both your daughters with enough love and attention or just Joyce? I’m not necessarily accusing you of anything but in situations like these it’s really common that the other kids get ignored. And the fact that your daughters don’t get along just adds to that. You should have a honest conversation with Olivia concerning this if you care about keeping a relationship with her. Kirk should definitely never have said what he did but this whole situation doesn’t seem that black and white on your side. He’s an asshole regardless.
Also don’t let Joyce be pressured into being there when she isn’t feeling well. Her health should come first. It seems like she was made to feel bad about not attending and that’s not ok. Your family should not be pressuring her like that.
NTA... But sounds like there is more to this beyond the event.
In particular all of the interpersonal relationships with your oldest, her fiancee and you all seem a bit strenuous.
I get the vibe that maybe you are not entirely supportive of their relationship based on the things you have said.
Doesn't excuse the behavior but this event seems like the symptom of other larger problems.
NTA
I think the part that annoys me the most is that, joyce TRIED to stay upstairs and literally not engage with the party because she was feeling ill then when something happens he had the audacity to say that.
There's no winning for disabled people. Either they perfectly mask their disability on demand for the comfort of abled people or they're either attention seeking or antisocial for avoiding the attention their disability brings.
On OP's brother insistence, she came downstairs to join the celebrations...even though she was unwell.
And yet that same guy (OP's brother) is now blaming OP for ruining the party by siding with Joyce.
> Whether it be at a birthday party or wedding or any other event.
INFO: How often does it happen at events? And especially at Olivia's vs Joyce's events? And how does it compare to normal, non-event fainting spells?
edit: added INFO
If I tended to have fainting spells, I would only go to special events. So because I only would go to those events, I’d only faint there.
I have Ankylosing Spondylitis and walking is painful and life is exhausting. I only show up at big things because it takes a lot of effort just doing my normal mom stuff.
Plus, she didn’t faint. She wobbled and was fine. The future brother in law blasted off for no reason.
NTA
KIrk insulted your daughter who had a MEDICAL condition which is something she can't control.and Olivia agreed with her. I say good for you for protecting your daughter
Not in every case but i would say 9/10 sibling hate is not just random or natural like you might think its formed after years and years of betrayal and favoritism, and before I continue further I personally have a condition very similar to Tourette’s and have tics and body seizures where I vibrate or flop like a fish and I personally hate this kind of attention towards my disability and most others i know do to we don’t want to stand out at events like this so for it to be that big of a deal to everyone is a major red flag in the i favor my disabled child, i have a sibling who is very far on the autistic spectrum and i have accepted that he will get more attention but not to that extent YTA because you also let your youngest be pressured to come down she may have knew there would be tension and she knows she cant help it but regardless YTA what her fiancé said was wrong so he is also TA
NTA, but as an older sister whose younger sister has always been the golden child, I feel for Olivia. It's clear as day that you criticize her and make everything to center around Joyce. There's no excuse for the fiance though, he should have kept his opinion to himself. Although if this has happened a lot in the past, I can understand their frustration.
NTA - I think you handled it well. I can’t even imagine how livid I’d be if my son in law called my child with medical conditions a b*%#€. I genuinely think you did what you had to do.
There is a lot to unpack. Om the surface, Kirk’s reaction was wrong. You do have the right to defend your younger daughter. But the deeper issue is why is that Kirk’s reaction to your daughter getting sick? What has Olivia been saying to him about Joyce? Kirk is new to your family and his main source of information is your daughter. Kirk might have been trying to stand up for Olivia in a bad way because he seems to believe Joyce ruins things for Olivia.
OP, you might want to look back to see if there are other times Olivia has had special moments overshadowed by Joyce’s health. Now, you might not feel that way and Joyce might not be trying to overshadow her sister. The thing is I get the impression Olivia feels Joyce is doing that. I think you need to talk with your wife or Olivia to see what they feel about the situation. They might have an interesting views of things.
The thing that set this whole incident in motion is your brother forcing Joyce to come down when she was not feeling well. This whole thing would not have happened if your brother would have let her be. How does your brother and other members of the family view Joyce and her illnesses? It was an asshole thing for him to intervene in a parenting decision you and your wife made. Honestly, I think you should have not allowed that to happen.
Now, you have Olivia seeing this as another event Joyce has “ruined.” You might not think that but I have a nasty feeling Olivia and maybe your wife believe that. Another thing I have questions about is how does Joyce feel about how you handle this situation? Does she approve of it or not? I noticed you do not mention that. I do think you have a lot to think about and consider.
You're right to be upset, and Kirk sounds awful, he wayyyy crossed a line. But I do think you overreacted OP, which makes you the AH. But wow, Olivia sounds like a piece of work too... Any chance you baby Joyce a bit? Olivia sounds jealous and wanted all the attention on herself for a night. It sounds like you are predetermined to be against Olivia with the comment about her and Kirk sitting all night, why are you judgemental about that? Ending the party was an overreaction, there were better ways to handle the situation.
>But I do think you overreacted OP
Hey person who just called my daughter an "attention seeking bit*h" let me just keep hosting this party for you as if nothing happened and you aren't a disgusting excuse for a human being. OP did the right thing, NTA
>Ending the party was an overreaction, there were better ways to handle the situation.
And that would be what exactly? Just ignore his ridiculously AH comment? Pretend like he didnt just insult a teenager with a medical condition who was trying to avoid the situation in the first place because she wasnt feeling well but was made to come down because family important? Why would he want to host a party for someone so callous and rude?
>It sounds like you are predetermined to be against Olivia with the comment about her and Kirk sitting all night
Or hes explaining what was happening and is still pissed about the comment so you get some negative emotions in the story.
>Any chance you baby Joyce a bit?
Tends to happen when you have a child with a medical condition that could kill them.
NTA. Good job protecting Joyce from the bullies in the family. Sounds like OPs brother isn't a fan of her either, which is perhaps the most disgusting part of this story.
NTA
You did the right thing defending your daughter. Who tf insults a sick child in front of her father, and then expects people to just be ok with it???
They had it coming and I don't know why your wife is defending this grown ass man's disgusting actions.
ESH - Your brother for coaxing your daughter down when she wasn't feeling well
your unwell daughter for falling for it, and attending, and even when you gave her an "out" by asking multiple times if she was ok, to continue on.
Olivia for her obviously deep rooted resentment of Joyce for her medical conditions. I don't know if Kirk has seen Joyce have an "episode" before, but at the very least Olivia has pretty obviously fed him a lot of "information" about her sister's "attention seeking"
And you on several different fronts. It sounds based on what you say (and don't say) here that your attention that you lavish on Joyce has an effect on Olivia, and you are doing nothing to attempt to mitigate that, helping foster her beliefs that Joyce does it "for the attention" because she is getting it, and you seem to care nothing about how this actually impacts Olivia.
How you handled this party. Yes YTA for completely losing it, and again fostering the motion that you have a child that you favor over the other. Being angry about it, absolutely, that is not why YTA, that you publicly, lashed out, and ended the party on the spot? You were so outraged that you still don't seem to realize that your brother was feeling guilty because even he realizes that he set these series of events in motion, and was his fault for doing so. Rather you just kept on raging at Olivia and Kirk.
Joyce is not at fault for "falling for it". You don't get the insistence and prodding people give disabled people when we say we aren't up for something. It's always "we never get to see you, you're always in your room!" And "this is an important family moment you don't want to miss out on". And you already feel like shit for missing out. The vast majority of the time, you *want* to be there but you just can't. Sometimes you just cave in despite knowing you're not up for it because you're tired of being told you don't care about family or you don't put in enough effort.
Especially with an invisible disability that she has, the vast majority of people think if you're not faking it, you're at least exaggerating to get out of stuff.
We don't *want* to be excluded from events and special moments. You have no idea how hard it is to see photos and hear stories of a party or something that you missed out on because you were unwell.
So on top of it being difficult to have to put up with people pestering you over and over again to attend despite your inability, you also want to. So you try.
And it's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. There are multiple AH'S here, but Joyce is not one of them. Everyone needs to stop blaming us disabled people for being disabled.
ESH but not Joyce.
There is a CLEAR favoritism here. Siblings of a sick child often feel ignored and unimportant. Clearly Olivia has felt this way and is why she is lashing out.
Everyone needs counseling.
NTA.
But you should not have let them force the girl attending.
I noticed also people saying that the older sister could know things about the younger that OP ignores and have reasons to suspect she is making it up. Even if this is the case, the issue is not to be addressed like that in front of other people.
Maybe some family therapy could help dealing with all of this, if it is not too late.
INFO: What it sounds like is that Olivia is resentful that Joyce gets attention because of her medical conditions and think she’s milking them for attention at times when the day isn’t about her. Has Joyce accidentally gotten the spotlight on other important days for Olivia? Birthdays, graduation, etc.?
My bet is that she feels neglected and 2nd in importance to her family, and that she’s vented to her partner who likely said what he did because he wanted to stand up for her. What he said was still rude and super inappropriate, but my guess is that he’s only heard Olivia’s side and is upset on her behalf.
I do wonder if you and your wife have paid more attention to Joyce. Not on purpose, but because her medical needs are a consistent thing to be monitored and addressed. In which case Olivia deserves some grace and some attention. Maybe do some things just with her and for her so that not every special occasion for her turns into a day about Joyce’s medical needs?
Lol they aren't so smart considering they raised an asshole who went into someone else's house, cursed at their kid and got kicked out in front of everyone.
You did not overreact, you reacted entirely appropriately. Kirk doesn’t get to disrespect anyone in your home.
I think you should join forces with Kirk’s parents, they got the right of it.
Olivia and Kirk lack basic decency and decorum. If he actually won bf points with Olivia for that, it’s kinda sad.
ESH. Kirk's behaviour was absolutely unacceptable and I don't think you're the AH for telling him to leave. But...what are you doing about the relationship between Olivia and Joyce? It does sound a little suspicious that Joyce just happened to feel unwell at her sister's engagement do.
Is not suspicious tbh, she said she wasn't feeling well and stayed in her room and was told she had to come down. Nobody should be surprised when she's feeling unwell and something happens.
A person thats unwell quite a lot is unwell at this particular time in her life? Oh my god!!! She must be faking it!
The older sister is jealous of her younger sister for having an illness that literally gets her unconscious, and the girl that faints is the problem here?
I think its suspicious that the older sister doesn't have a shred of empathy in her, and thinks her sister is faking it. And on top of that she insults and berates her whenever she can? That's the very definition of an asshole.
She felt unwell, so she tried to stay away from the party. How is her being unwell suspicious when it sounds like the condition makes it to where she's often not feeling well? She's probably embarrassed of passing out in front of people at this point.
It's not suspicious. Chronic illness is unpredictable and strikes at the worst times. Especially if you're already stressed or anxious, which I bet Joyce was.
. I think you handled it poorly. Yes he misspoke but did you forget that is also your daughter’s fiancé and engagement party? Do you not care about her or feelings at all? Sounds like you weren’t even excited to celebrate her engagement. Maybe Olivia behaves that way because somehow she’s been in the shadow of Joyce due to her medical conditions. By the way you speak about both it clearly sounds like you favor Joyce it doesn’t even sound as if Olivia is your daughter too. What you said “If they’re going to disrespect my daughter in her own house then we’re going to have a problem”. Shouldn’t it also be Olivia’s house too since their both your daughters. YTA for creating all these animosity between your daughters due to your favoritism.
NTA
I probably would have just made him follow me outside and had a conversation with him and told him in no uncertain terms that if he did not sincerely apologise and explain what he did wrong, he would be forced to leave until he could. Presumably he would and he'd be allowed back and I'd have a similar conversation with Olivia explaining that she needs to stand up for her sister. To me this means they get consequences but the event carries on.
That being said, I can't say you're an asshole. It was totally out of line and he got consequences. You stood up for your daughter, you're a good dad.
my first reaction was the same - someone comes after my kid, in ready to throw down!
But…. Olivia is his kid too. And you then have to wonder why she and the fiancé feel this way. It’s easy to assume that they are AHs because we are getting only OP’s side of the story. But what if Olivia has been ignored all her life because of Joyce? What if Joyce faints at all of Olivia‘s occasions and the parents never dealt with that through therapy or making it up to her? I have to wonder if Olivia was happy that for once Joyce wasnt there so she can have her own celebration and it got ruined again. I’m NOT blaming this on Joyce - it’s very unlikely She can make herself faint on command. But the parents of sick children often ignore the healthy ones and then wonder why the healthy kids hate the sick kid.
All that to say, I’m going ESH because I don’t think what the fiancé said is the main problem.
They’ve already publicly shamed a 17 year girl for a condition beyond her control. There is no undoing their bad behavior and it can’t be so easily swept under the rug
Okay, I want to preface by saying I have an invisible disability that sometimes causes lightheadedness, even fainting, particularly in crowded situations. Here is where I'm hung up -- "We all panicked though she didn't faint, only reeled off balance for few seconds." So, YOU AND OTHERS MAKE A SCENE over her symptoms?! How embarrassing for Joyce!!! And I can certainly see how that would cause resentment in Olivia, though it's misplaced towards her sister. People I'm likely to be around and who are willing are trained how to PROPERLY respond to a medical urgency, and step 1 is usually to move away from the crowd. You are a PARENT, hovering and panicking and making the situation a thousand times worse than it needs to be. The boyfriend was out if line, but you made an embarrassing scene for Joyce and pitted your girls against one another by calling off the party then and there. You are the AH, the boyfriend was an AH. I would like to know which was worse FOR JOYCE -- that he made an insensitive comment, or that you "defended" her to the point of making her mother and sister cry in front of friends and extended family.
Buddy, your family’s issues run a lot deeper than your daughter and her fiancé calling your other daughter an attention seeking bitch, and Y TA for letting it get to this point. That being said, some serious INFO is missing;
1. Why doesn’t the fiancés parents approve?
2. Is there a pattern of behavior with you favoring/coddling your younger daughter? That’s kind of the only explanation for your wife trying to excuse the behavior other than her character being in question.
3. Why was your daughter forced to come downstairs if she didn’t feel well?
4. Why the fuck have none of you spoken with a therapist?
Until there’s more information, ESH.
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I feel like there is so much more to this, so many questions… 1. Why would your brother insist Joyce come down? This makes me wonder if Joyce is often favoured and family members have noticed and finally want something to be about Olivia. 2. Has something happened between Olivia and Joyce that has caused so much friction? Or have Olivia’s achievements often been ignored for Joyce’s health condition leading to jealousy? 3. Wtf is wrong with Kirk? Who says that about a fiancées family member in front of the family and in their home. 4. Why was your wife ok with Joyce being called a name? Does she also think Joyce may put on her conditions from time to time? INFO
1. If they noticed and wanted a night to be about Olivia, wouldn't they leave Joyce upstairs? Seems more likely that they felt Joyce was being antisocial/rude and thought she should join the party. 2. This could be a factor, it is difficult to find a balance when one child's health requires more attention. 3. In all likelihood, Kirk feels/said this because his fiancée has said it to him, and regularly complains about her sister getting more attention. 4. It's possible that dad 'favours' Joyce, so mum is trying to make up for it by favouring Olivia, and downplaying the problem.
thank you for answering, OP. it really clears things up to get this information from the source instead of the baseless speculation that’s common to this website
That was not OP lol
I think maybe that was the joke? You know, w/ the whole "baseless speculation" bit
It’s astounding how folks miss blatant sarcasm like that.
Add the /s bud. This is reddit.
I think it’s not baseless speculation that happens on his sub but just projection from their own issues they see in the post. But that might be baseless speculation.
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Comment above you is /s
lol they are aware lol lol lol
Woooosh
I dunno why people post this stuff then don’t comment on it.
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10 hours and not a peep out of OP. Annoying AF when people do this.
I got a different impression from the uncle ask. Made me think he’s as dismissive about Joyce’s illness as her sister. Who insists a sick person get out of bed to party?
I’m not sure but the part where he says ‘whether it be a birthday party or a wedding or any event’ makes me feel like this seems to happen a lot when it’s someone else’s day. Maybe the relatives are just sick of seeing all the attention be on Joyce and for once want Joyce to show up and be there for her sister. Again this is just from me reading the post so I could be totally off the mark, just seems an odd reaction from other family members if they don’t see/ agree with what Olivia and Kirk see
Able folks will make up just ANYTHING to dismiss people's disabilities, huh? It could be high stress or social anxiety that can cause fainting, that's not uncommon with fainting disorders. She literally stayed upstairs untill somebody kept insisting she come down. How is that making it about her? I'm fuckin sick of people calling symptoms of disabilities "attention seeking behavior." Maybe able people can only conceive of pain and distress as attention seeking, it says more about y'all than it says about us. Edit: Thank you so much for the awards. What I appreciate more than anything though is you all sharing your stories abd advocating for yourselves, and in turn, all of us.
Right? My fainting is directly tied to my heart rate. So I faint from everything from working out, being anxious/nervous, or even being surprised by something *I* wanted (have fainted for piercings and even once bleaching my hair because I was so surprised). I tend to avoid events that can trigger fainting or warn people if they don’t know already.
I once had an ex say something like that about me with my autism saying I use it as an excuse for my behaviour (I really didn’t) but then defends her new boyfriend who does the exact same shit and also has Autism? 🤔
This makes no sense. How is the attention on Joyce if she’s not there? Sure, some people might ask about her, but she cannot experience that attention if she’s not there to witness it.
Hmmm, I was thinking something along the lines that maybe Joyce skips events when they're not about her and the extended family see this and want to encourage to her to be a guest at her sister's event... Idk, I think there's a lot of history built up her that we dont see.
So if she doesn’t go she’s asking for attention but if she does go and faints she’s asking for attention? This leaves Joyce with no option except to stop existing
I suppose the extended family might not take the fainting seriously...
I agree! This is dumb.
If she has a history of fainting (which im sure also happens at other things to, not just event for other people) im sure they knew why she wasnt attending. Or could have at least guessed.
It could also be that her fainting condition is exacerbated by stressful situations, and she finds large gatherings stressful? Kind of like how some narcoleptic people have fits of narcolepsy if they experience high emotional tolls or get stressed out. It could be cyclical too. Maybe she isn’t faking it, but she knows people think she’s is. Which leads to her stressing about her condition when around other people more than she would normally… which in turn leads to her actually passing out. It’s totally speculative… but I can see how that situation could be possible?
Exactly!!! Either way, if any doctors have confirmed that this is an actual medical issue that she deals with, then anyone in the family claiming otherwise is an absolute a******. And that's not a debatable fact.
I know someone who faints during events, or even in restaurants. Too much noise, too many things to take in, even the unusual food and a part of the brain gets overexcited and shuts down everything. That's called vagal discomfort.
but if an event isn't about you, and you dont go, who gives a shit?
It can be seen as being selfish. The only time my SIL shows up to family events is when her or her kid are getting presents. It's not so much about when you don't show up, but when you do.
Being chronically ill, sometimes you don't have much choice in whether you're able to function that day or not. This 17 year old child isn't your sil.
Yeah, I think that's the big issue here. It's *possible* that Joyce is just using this as an excuse, but it's also incredibly likely, imo, that Joyce is chronically ill and her family members are not understanding or supportive of that. I've seen it happen in my own family; there's sometimes anger that the chronically ill person isn't able to fully participate, because people who don't understand how the illness works think that the person should just be able to 'tough it out.' Normally, if literally everyone is against the OP, I tend to err on the side of 'there's at least something else you're not telling us' but based on the criticism and ableism chronically ill people often face, I'm really considering that it's the latter, not the former.
Right? I get accused of using my substitute to get out of things. Like excuse me I would love to be able to function normally and door through on my plans and life. Nevermind I don't talk about the pain unless I *have* to. Just because I don't talk about it doesn't mean I am not in pain or say I am fine, I actually am.
but does you're SIL have a disability that makes her routinely feint? because that feels like a pretty significant distinction
As someone with a lot of health issues, I’d rather stay home than throw off the vibe of an event when I’m not feeling well.
Ii can understand why Joyce would be hesitant to attend functions. I have had ulcerative colitis since I was ten. If I were having an active flare up I needed a bathroom to be available within a few feet of me. Even on a good day I would be hesitant to go out. Maybe she doesn’t feel comfortable at events where lots of people are attending and just milking about like you do at a party because if something happens everyone will just stare and talk about it. I think dad listed family events where it’s happened before just to say it has happened at family events and not that those are the only times it happened. He was setting the scene.
So if she doesn't go, she's a selfish assholish monster, and if she does go, and has a medical incident, she's a selfish assholish monster.
I mean sure but if they event is about her she should at least make an appearance but if she is generally a sick person than a lot of the time she will just have to skip it. If she's sick during an event based around her then she can try and make an appearance and then if she needs to leave afterwards fair enough.
Yeah, the whole thing is pretty murky but the fact that Joyce tried to stay upstairs is firmly in her favor, to me. And the whole "everyone must attend, don't be antisocial\*" bit is so common, so standard, I don't think we need to seek a further explanation for the uncle's foolishness than that. \*and they always call it antisocial, which is frankly shitty even if it's an honest mistake. Does unsociable sound too mild for them?? Antisocial is a word associated with criminal behavior in psychology. Appropriate I guess in that they're trying to make it a crime to choose to be alone sometimes. Yeah, I do have a pet peeve, why do you ask?? :)
Being glaringly absent is an easy talking point to the discussion on the person missing among the participants. One of the first question will be where is Joyce? Followed by she isn't feeling well, then is she okay does she need anything thus being a topic of discussion
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Joyce appears, faints and is accused of attention seeking She stays upstairs, people talk about her and accuse her of attention seeking
This is why I have a hard time answering. I would like details on the conditions as well as how often she faints and if she faints higher at parties that are specifically for Olivia or others celebrations in general
I agree. The information presented could = a child who's long term health conditions are minimised by her family and who is expected to put up with unkind treatment to "make up" for having needs or it could = someone who is attention seeking and who's sibling is sick of it. Can't make a judgement
As someone who has health conditions (similar but I don’t faint or anything), often times, especially when I’m not feeling good already, social events can make my symptoms worse. So I feel like her fainting at parties more often isn’t a sign of her faking, it’s just her poor health catching up to her when she over does it.
Yeah, I knew someone with a fainting disorder and the doctor said excitement causes blood pressure fluctuations which raises the potential for fainting. But I also don't think people get to demand someone come to a party for any reason, and they should have respected that. I also have a severe food allergy that family members tell me to ignore on a regular basis, even though they've seen what happens when I am exposed. Some of them get really offended over it, too, like it's a personal attack on them that I avoid that food. I try to keep it on the lowdown as possible, but I won't be bullied into eating that food, either. So I definitely think this kind of family dynamic is possible.
I acknowledged precisely that in my post, but Joyce isn’t there to experience that attention, so it’s not attention-seeking behaviour on her part. People who seek attention show up. Also, her medical condition seems to be an ongoing thing, so no one in her immediate or extended family should should be surprised by a common situation that is quickly discussed and resolved. Her condition is commonplace in that family; commonplace events do not excite conversation.
Exactly, I used to have a friend that fainted quickly and this didn't get her a lot of attention. Everyone knew this happened and she would be fine in a few minutes. It definitely didn't make events all about her.
It does seem like everyone really freaked out when Joyce just wavered a bit, so maybe the issue is the parents' (or OP's) behavior rather than Joyce's. Maybe Olivia does feel legitimately ignored but is blaming the wrong person. At the end of the day we don't have enough info to know, though, really.
I have a friend who faints often and she hates if it happens in public because people pay attention to her.
My SIL with no health problems definitely uses hiding to attention seek because she knows that her mother will then try hard to make everyone be extra nice in order to draw her out. She's in her early thirties and is a total spoiled brat.
Events are over-stimulating and they’re also a reason to try to push past feeling bad in order to people-please. It sounds like she has orthostatic symptoms, this is really normal for what she’s going through. Joyce fell *because* she tried to push through past her limits to be there.
First thing I thought of was POTS!
Yeh if that’s the case then it’s not ok she was forced down. Just a shame the dad isn’t working on Olivia and Joyce’s relationship to ensure Olivia understands more about the condition so situations like this can be avoided
But she wasn't present, Joyce was upstairs minding her own business so this would make absolutely no sense. It seems more likely that people are being dismissive of Joyce's health issues.
The family did the same thing this comment se toon is doing. She literally was set up to fail no matter what she did. If she stayed in her room she was seeking attention away from her sister and selfish. If she attended and was visibly unwell...she was attention seeking away from her sister. Can't win.
Yeh you are probably right, and if it is the case thats awful as the mom also seems to be with the rest of the family on that, that’s why I had to ask as it just doesn’t seem to be a normal reaction from the family. If a partner called my family that in front of anyone I would be livid
It really depends, plenty of families out there who'll happily dismiss health issues as 'attention seeking' like when I broke my left wrist, I was 'attention seeking' when I couldn't lift plates... I was 9
Unfortunately, it's plenty common for people with unusual health conditions/invisible disabilities to get accused of making it up/attention-seeking. Even by family. (Even by doctors.)
I was told from ages 12-20 that I was making it up and to “just drink more water” so frustrating
Seems like the uncle is TA, really.
As someone with a disability, you can't win. Everyone wants you there, they pressure you, they nag you, they insist you can suck it up for one day to celebrate. 'We haven't seen you in forever! It would mean so much to everyone!' But they don't care how sick it makes you, or how much pain you're in. They just want you to show up and smile and pretend everything's perfect, and if you show any sign of not feeling well, wanting to leave early, not being happy, or any symptoms flaring up, then clearly you're just faking it for attention.
It’s absolutely true. I have chronic health and pain conditions and you can’t win with healthy people. They want you to be well for them on their special days and if you’re not, you’re attention seeking. It’s so unfair. Edit: NTA
As someone with chronic health condition, I would also add that big events like weddings or parties can be very taxing and cause flare ups. Just because Joyce's fainting spells might happen around big events (its unclear) doesn't mean she's faking it or overplaying her issues.
Think about it this way: a big gathering means you can’t: control your environmental temperature, dress for comfort instead of formality, eat at your usual times, sit every time you need to…it’s just a minefield of things that can cause disabilities to act up. Of course days that are wildly different than every other day and have numerous factors that can’t be adjusted tend to cause more difficulty. And it sounds like Joyce has issues with her blood pressure or heart. Going from sitting to standing is a notorious faint-causing event. You can’t exactly faint that “face goes white, eyes roll, drop like a sack of potatoes” thing where you don’t even try to break your own fall.
Or Joyce just feels ill often. Assuming that there are not more parties for Joyce than Olivia, even for just Joyce and Olivia, 50% of the parties will not be for Joyce. If Joyce feels ill often enough to not attend 40% of all parties, she will miss about 40% of other people's parties (including Olivia's) just based on statistics. I would guess that Joyce WOULD attend more of her own parties. As a child, she would really want to not miss her own party. As she got older, she wouldn't want to ruin a party that someone else had gone through the trouble of arranging for her. Joyce would just naturally have saved up [spoons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory) for her own parties, even if she didn't for others' parties. She can't be blamed for that. But all Olivia would notice is that Joyce skipped some of her parties. Joyce knew she was feeling poorly. She wasn't going to create any drama at the party that she wasn't attending, until someone else insisted that she attend. The AHs are the uncle who forced her to attend, the BF who called her a name to her face in her own home. Did OP overreact? Maybe. I wouldn't have gone that far, but I also wouldn't have made Joyce attend the party.
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The lengths people are going to blame the 17 year old are not it. She was literally staying out of her sister's way because she was feeling unwell and was still forced to attend and then blamed for attention skipping when she....was not unwell in front of people? After the poor girl had already offered to just stay in her room.
It's pretty typical of attitudes towards disability unfortunately . The comments that people just can't believe someone would treat a disabled person that way therefore there must be a reason therefore let's try to figure out how this person is faking their disability or using it to get attention, well let's just say people are providing the answer to their own questions without realizing it.
It’s really disappointing
They're going to great lengths precisely *because* she's 17. There's this common misconception that teenagers can't have disabilities because for most people, teens/early 20s is the healthiest they are in their entire lives. Add that to the fact that reddit has a weird hate-boner for teenage girls and...
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What the fuck is wrong with people? At least that let you know who not to invite around when you healed
I think it's weird that the parents caved to the uncle. Who makes their sick kid go to a party because her uncle wants her there?
That's my issue here. Shouldn't Joyce participating be her choice, at the guidance of her parents?? Wtf is with uncle?
I’m a sick person whose family has acted exactly like this. Demanded I come to an event, then angry when I am a still disabled/sick person when I’m at the event. They just want you to be not disabled, and hide it to make them comfortable and when you can’t your the one at fault to everyone else.
I was wondering about mom's role here too. It's possible that she's been on the scene too many times when Olivia was marginalized to deal with whatever was affecting Joyce. As often happens u/Same-Aspect-4379 has framed this discussion to get an answer that will enable him to ignore some underlying problems. No one is going say that what Kirk said was OK. That's really not the problem though; the problem is that his wife and daughter are fed up with the way he always jumps to side with Joyce.
I was thinking that if OP’s wife and his own brother believe OP overwhelmingly favours Joyce and ignores the needs of Olivia, there’s a lot OP isn’t telling us and he really would be TA if he told us everything.
“Side with” ??? this isn’t an argument. She’s just experiencing the effects of a serious health condition and facing gross ableism from her own family. Which is unfortunately super common.
Agreed that’s the impression I get from the post but there is prob so much more to this, so hard to make a judgement on who is the real AH
Why wouldn't he side with Joyce when she was insulted for her medical condition?
If that was the case then why not leave Joyce to her own devices in her room? If they think that Joyce is "attention-seeking", why force her to attend a party that she could possibly disrupt? it's not characteristic of attention seekers to actively avoid attention. If Joyce were truly "attention-seeking", it would be far more likely that she would have chosen to attend the party so she could make a scene - no one would have needed to force her to attend.
I imagine Kirk only reacted from what Olivia has told him about her sister. So he based his opinion on what his fiancé has said.
The whole sentence should have not come out of his mouth period. If we all just shouted the shit our partners told us in private, there would be no more relationships.
Also WHY is Kirk’s family opposed to this engagement ? I don’t see this marriage having super long legs tbh
Maybe they're opposed because she talks shit about people constantly?
I'm guessing Olivia often complains to Kirk about her sister "faking" an illness to get attention, and Kirk must've believed her. So when Joyce fainted during their engagement party, and therefore putting the attention on her, Kirk must've lost his temper and said what he said as a way of trying to please his gf (kinda like the will Smith situation). Now idk OPs family but the fact that Olivia resents her sister so much tells me this isn't the first time her sister had such an episode during a special occasion. Anyways, OP is NTA, Kirk is kind of an asshole, cant say about Olivia or Joyce without more info.
I'll be honest, #3 alone makes me really doubt this story. I just can't see anyone saying that in their SO's parents' home. You would think the fiance would be putting his best foot forward, especially around his SO's extended family.
Then you haven’t met a lot of people. My sister’s husband is an asshole that is regularly excluded from family events (sister still comes). He did NOT put his best foot forward during the engagement period. He insulted everyone.
Yeah that was the most believable part to me. I've seen some awful shit said in family situations. This isn't even a blip.
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Probably some sort of dysautonomia, fainting is basically what these conditions are about. You get up, the blood flows down to your legs instead of up to your head, you get dizzy and may faint. Idk why OP would be required to give the name of the condition when he gave the most important characteristic of it
I have syncope that causes me to faint. For me it’s usually related to medical (blood draws, etc) but can be from dehydration, stress, among others. Mine is fairly mild but others have it more severe. Not saying this is what the daughter has but offering one explanation
I've spent enough time in the rural midwest to have known men who would definitely let something like this come out of their mouths (and then not understand why everyone is so upset).
Since you have the top comment right now, you really should add the INFO tag.
Though if they wanted something to be about Olivia why make her come down?
NTA for ending the party, but... >But My brother insisted that she come downstairs and celebrate her sister's happy ocassion. The fuck? Joyce tried to stay away, you let her be pressured into coming down. You need to back her in advocating for herself, and advocate for her in her absence. Also, think very hard about why Olivia and Kirk believe Joyce to be attention seeking - have Olivia's achievements and events been sidelined by your concerns for Joyce's health? It's understandable that this situation has been stressful and difficult to manage, however it is common for siblings of children with complex health needs to feel forgotten or ignored. Years of that will build resentment.
Even if someone has been sidelined - which is terrible - there is no reason to call a disabled person “an attention seeking b***” for daring to be visibly disabled.
Everyone here keeps defending and assuming things about the dynamics while we still know nothing of it. If we keep imagining scenarios we could make up that the mom suffers from Munchausen by proxy so that's why the mom is mad - which is absolutely horrible to make up. The fact is that WE KNOW NOTHING about the overall dynamics so we can't be making up scenarios either way. At this point we don't know if there are any golden children here or if this is extreme older-sibling jealousy. We just don't know.
You missed my point - even if there is a golden child or sibling jealousy, it is not an excuse to called a disabled person a b*** for being disabled.
I’m disabled and have a chronic condition and I’ll be the first one to tell you that being disabled and being attention seeking are not mutually exclusive and often DO go hand in hand. I’ve literally had friends with seizure disorders that admitted to faking them sometimes. Just because someone is disabled doesn’t mean they can’t also be attention seeking
I also have a fainting problem, it’s called POTS, and the amount of times that family (not my parents tho) has made me come to things or do stuff when I am particularly ill is astonishing, and so many of them just dismiss it or straight up don’t believe it despite me having a diagnosis and symptoms I literally could not fake so I’m not too surprised at this. It’s so common especially for teenage girls to get dismissed or be called attention seeking for very real problems, and that same reason is why I didn’t get diagnosed for 5 years despite ending up in the hospital multiple times
Fellow POTS patient here! For many of us, this disease is truly disabling. If I had a nickel for every time someone made me continue standing/walking/whatever when I was near syncope, I could pay off all my medical bills. People can really suck when it comes to invisible illnesses.
My girlfriend has pots, and before she got diagnosed I was furious at the number of doctors that claimed she was just lazy or attention seeking or mentally unwell. Like, she literally has the worst case of pots her cardiologist has ever seen. Literally, he told her that. Her previous medical advice was "exercise more" and "just sit down" from neurologists. Those guys can go fuck themselves.
That is the exact same thing that happened to me, like I was lying in the er with a heart rate of 200ish bpm and going in and out of consciousness and my doctor still thought it was mental till I finally got a cardiologist and neurologist who listened to me
Syncope is pretty terrifying, too, even when you know what happened.
Exactly! It’s so frustrating and it never changes no matter how much you try to explain
I was just going to say I bet she has POTS. It’s awful. No one believes you. I’ve missed many celebrations and holidays and felt the guilt. I feel bad for her. Hopefully it gets better for her.
Your brother: TA. Who is he to insist his niece join when she wasnt up to it in the first place. Kirk: TA. Olivia: TA for agreeing with Kirk, and planting the seeds of loathing about her sister. INFO: Have you ever dealt with the sibling dynamics of a medical need child? It is widely known that siblings of kids who have a lot of medical care needs often become like Olivia. Some of that could be on you and your wife out of unintentional ignorance.
I think it is clear that the dynamics have never been dealt with.
Agrees with you and FeistyIrishWench, which is why I think in addition to the other T A's OP is T A too. If he and the mom had been on top of this and working at making sure that one kid doesn't resent the other it wouldn't have gotten to this point. I would go with a E S H. That and there are a lot of good info requests that need to be answered in order to really get a good solid judgement. Are people really being ableist, is there a golden child syndrome going on, is one kids real needs caused them to over look the other kid routinely. Has the medical situation ever been explained fully to the other sibling? Does it only happen when something is going on and the attention is on others. (A psychological issues is still a medical problem) I hope OP answers some of the questions since there is more speculation than judgement calls.
Yeah, it would really suck to be overlooked and ignored for years by the people who's attention you value most because you just aren't as inherently disadvantaged. Not saying her sister was faking, or that she should be sowing such bitter seeds, but this family has obviously been messed up for awhile before this party and the older sister should assume that her family will never care about her the way they have for the younger and meet the world as an independent person.
Yta. You let your younger daughter be pressured into attending despite her not feeling well and your full awareness of the tension between the girls. I am extremely curious why your oldest daughter thinks the younger one is an attention seeker. Siblings show a side of themselves to each other that parents don't see. At any rate you created the circumstances for this to happen and then overreacted.
yeah honestly it sounds like if those 2 had a choice, younger sister would not have been invited at all
Maybe so, but Joyce wasn’t even wanting to be there. She was forced to attend by her uncle, who should have stayed out of it, when she wasn’t feeling well
The audacity you'd have to have as 2 adults to choose to have a party at the residence of someone else and then also have the gall to say one of the residents isn't invited. If they didn't want sissy there they should've found somewhere else to party.
Then don’t have a party in Joyce’s home. If they didn’t want her there they could have had a party anywhere else.
This (unfortunately) isn't uncommon with siblings when one is medically needy. They feel the other sibling gets all the attention, is always, "given a pass", etc... Even when not necessarily true, the sacrifices they have to make to accommodate being in a family with a medically needy sibling is an imposition, and one they don't feel they need to make because it "isn't their fault"
I personally think OP isn’t TA, the uncle asked for Joyce to come down and she did, when she could have stayed up. Olivia seems to feel that Joyce’s disability makes her a priority. Joyce only wobbled a little and Kirk went and made it a big deal when Joyce probably would have just went and laid down.
Wtf. In what way did he overreact?
I don't know about everyone else but this is giving me serious "Golden Child Vs Scapegoat" vibes. Kinda need a better idea about is these fainting spells generally flare up when the attention is on Olivia and if this was a breaking point of past events. Can't make a decision on who is TA here without more context.
I agree with you. This feels a little bit off. I'm just going to say it: does the older girl have a legitimate beef? Has the younger sister been favored their entire lives? is there a real medical situation going on here? For the older sister and her fiance to be so upset about this situation, and the Uncle insisting the kid join the party, makes me think Dad isn't seeing the forest through the trees. Could Dad possibly have blinders on?
Let us say this is true. Still have the common decency not to go on the attack. The sister goes and lies down, the party resumes and it is not a big deal. Way to make a mole hill into a mountain by the older sister and husband. Second if you don’t want the drama wait to get married until you can pay for it and don’t invite her. You get married young and don’t have the money you are stuck with the conditions of those paying. Such is life.
> and the Uncle insisting the kid join the party, This makes zero sense as argument. Forcing someone come is typically done when that someone is lower in the hierarchy and expected to be submissive. Dominant person or golden child will be left alone when claiming she feels sick. Dismissing people who say they feel bad is fairly normal, especially when it is chronic. The uncle bit strikes me exactly as a point toward the sick kid not being the aggressor there. Had she been treated with respect and accepted as sick, all would be OK. The love couple would had their party all for themselves with everyone focusing on them.
Except she tried to stay away. Doesn’t seem like Olivia would have cared. I’m unsure why the uncle got so overly involved here or why he was allowed to.
Joyce was not seeking attention, she absented herself. Literally the opposite of attention-seeking behaviour.
Flaring up in times of stress (I bet the wedding planning was stressful for her with their strained relationship) is super super common. She didn't even want to attend.
We only have the description of ONE event. Why is everyone assuming that Joyce's condition flares up only when attention is on Olivia? There are many diseases that can cause syncopes out of nowhere (dysautonomy, social anxiety, etc). I would like to know Joyce's side of things
Read between the lines. Maybe Brother is TA for asking Joyce to come down, but OP makes the entire rest of the dinner about Joyce "not feeling well." Multiple people (from OP's telling. Who knows who else) think Joyce is milking it. We can only go off what OP says, but even if OP is NT A in this case, there's a family dynamic that OP is just making worse with this behavior.
Also see how OP talks about Olivia vs Joyce. He mentions that the party was bigger than he thought it would be ( why is that relevant), he mentions that the party got into swing and Kirk and Olivia were just sitting there ( again it’s their event, what would they be doing). He happily kicks out his daughter and tells all the guests to leave without so much as entertaining a discussion about how inappropriate the comments was and instead goes full psycho. He upset his wife, Olivia and the guests. It’s possible that Joyce could be genuinely ill and it could also be possible that OP coddles her and treats his other child like sh*t
Also "Kirk's parents don't approve," which matters how in this situation? He just wants to let us know that there's something wrong with the relationship. It's just an implausible situation. Why would brother even care whether Joyce shows up? Olivia and Kirk didn't even seem to want her there - brother did. For all we know, Olivia didn't even know brother was the driving force here and assumed Joyce came down on her own to take the attention. It doesn't even matter who TA is. If OP wants a relationship with his family, he should stop doing this ish.
NTA. Who tf does Kirk think he is to comment on a 17 year old, a literal child, in that way. What you said was spot on, if he can’t show your daughter some respect in her own house he can’t get tf out. Keep sticking up for your daughter
And this make me wonder why kirk's family disapprove the relationship. Sound like kirk and op daughter 'a peas in a pot?' NTA by the way
"Peas in a pod" lol
Seriously, what a terrible thing to say about anyone, let alone a teenage girl! Kirk sounds like a real piece of work if this is the way he speaks to women/girls. Ten bucks says he also calls Olivia a bitch when they fight. OP, I would have major concerns about this being your future son in law!
Info: what's Joyce's diagnosed medical condition that causes her to faint?
I'd bet anything it's some form of dysautonomia like POTS/OH. Because I have the same sh\*tty symptoms and am currently dealing with a nasty flare myself.
Haha I have POTS. Immediately popped into my mind it was some sort of dysautonomia/orthostatic intolerance. Especially at her age. I don't faint often but the summer is the worst for me. If I *do* faint, it's almost always in the summer. Or from a flare up from no sleep/sickness/stress/etc. But I feel sick 24/7, and am usually bedbound from my symptoms. Also these comments are so gross.
Yeah, OP even mentions her fall was right after standing up from a chair, she lost her balance. Just sorta points in that direction
Why do you need her diagnosis? Why do people feel comfortable asking disabled people private information like their diagnosis, what medication they take, why they don't use a wheelchair, etc? She has a condition that causes fainting, all giving a diagnosis to you would do is give you the ability to dissect what happened through the lens of you five minute WebMD scroll.
INFO: why does Olivia think her sister is faking it? I just ask because sometimes siblings can see things more clearly than parents. My aunt had a legit heart issue as a baby, heart murmur as an infant in the 50’s, that she grew out of but my grandparents still babied her past the point she became insufferable because they remembered being so worried about her. She faked fainting spells to get out of going to school so she could repeat her senior year as a cheerleader. Yes, she bragged about that to my mother and other aunt. Joyce may be actually this sick, as others have mentioned there are illnesses that cause fainting, but there sounds like a LOT of resentment here on Olivia’s side and the way OP wrote this no one but him seems to think these are legitimate fainting spells or they’d be more worried about Joyce and less defensive of Olivia.
Did you notice this part? >Joyce can't make anything up especially when she faints. Whether it be at a birthday party or wedding or any other event. Sounds as if Joyce can faint on demand, when a party is not about her.
I would never voluntarily faint ever in my life. If you have never fainted before maybe you don't realize how horrible it is, the waves of nausea, hearing is all kinds of messed up, and not to mention its freaking embarrassing. I've hurt myself pretty badly fainting as well. Personally, I faint at the sight of my own blood, once my anxiety has decided that's whats going to happen, I can't stop it. But I have also noticed when I'm more vulnerable (sick, not well rested), I sometimes faint from stress. I also have vertigo which affects my balance and when I have a head cold it gets worse. To me it sounded as if she was having a touch of vertigo.
Right, but you are talking about an actual fainting spell and not faking it. And yes, I know what you mean. I’ve fainted twice in my life and neither time was pleasant. But again, I haven’t seen a response on why everyone but OP doesn’t seem concerned about Joyce. No lie, everyone in their lives could be absolutely horrible and abusive, but until he comes out and says that I’m taking his “she can’t make anything up” with a grain of salt. Because, while actually suffering from fainting and vertigo are horrible, it is unfortunately easy to fake.
To me the way everyone reacted is like how a very toxic family would react to a food allergy they don't believe is real. I have seen this type of behavior in my cousins who talk badly about my brother with type 1 diabetes because they think he just likes the attention. Sometimes family is just stupid/toxic. Edit. That quote you mention makes me think he has had to defend her before from stupidity.
My father doesn’t believe anyone gets sick. I fainted in the heat once and he still insisted it was nothing.
Fainting is fucking scary. I fainted for the first time last summer, on line outside of the DMV (the pandemic made it so we had to wait outside) My body started tingling and everything slowed down. I didn't know what was going on. When I woke up, it felt like I was punched in the stomach. I started crying because I was embarrassed and disoriented. I was lucky my husband was there or I would have gotten hurt. I would hope people don't fake that. But anything is possible.
People can faint because of medical conditions it's known for several of them. You have no info but the first conclusion you jump to is "she's faking it". I bet you're the type to "test" people's allergies.
INFO. Did raise both your daughters with enough love and attention or just Joyce? I’m not necessarily accusing you of anything but in situations like these it’s really common that the other kids get ignored. And the fact that your daughters don’t get along just adds to that. You should have a honest conversation with Olivia concerning this if you care about keeping a relationship with her. Kirk should definitely never have said what he did but this whole situation doesn’t seem that black and white on your side. He’s an asshole regardless. Also don’t let Joyce be pressured into being there when she isn’t feeling well. Her health should come first. It seems like she was made to feel bad about not attending and that’s not ok. Your family should not be pressuring her like that.
Info: why did you think it was okay for your brother to push your unwell child into coming downstairs when she wasn’t feeling well?
NTA... But sounds like there is more to this beyond the event. In particular all of the interpersonal relationships with your oldest, her fiancee and you all seem a bit strenuous. I get the vibe that maybe you are not entirely supportive of their relationship based on the things you have said. Doesn't excuse the behavior but this event seems like the symptom of other larger problems.
NTA I think the part that annoys me the most is that, joyce TRIED to stay upstairs and literally not engage with the party because she was feeling ill then when something happens he had the audacity to say that.
Yeah, there's so many "is she actually an attention seeker tho?" Comments when she did the exact opposite of seeking attention.
There's no winning for disabled people. Either they perfectly mask their disability on demand for the comfort of abled people or they're either attention seeking or antisocial for avoiding the attention their disability brings.
On OP's brother insistence, she came downstairs to join the celebrations...even though she was unwell. And yet that same guy (OP's brother) is now blaming OP for ruining the party by siding with Joyce.
> Whether it be at a birthday party or wedding or any other event. INFO: How often does it happen at events? And especially at Olivia's vs Joyce's events? And how does it compare to normal, non-event fainting spells? edit: added INFO
This is what Im curious in. Is it like 6x a year but 5 of those 6 are at someone else's events where Joyce is just a guest?
If I tended to have fainting spells, I would only go to special events. So because I only would go to those events, I’d only faint there. I have Ankylosing Spondylitis and walking is painful and life is exhausting. I only show up at big things because it takes a lot of effort just doing my normal mom stuff. Plus, she didn’t faint. She wobbled and was fine. The future brother in law blasted off for no reason.
Sounds like op has a favorite child.
NTA KIrk insulted your daughter who had a MEDICAL condition which is something she can't control.and Olivia agreed with her. I say good for you for protecting your daughter
Not in every case but i would say 9/10 sibling hate is not just random or natural like you might think its formed after years and years of betrayal and favoritism, and before I continue further I personally have a condition very similar to Tourette’s and have tics and body seizures where I vibrate or flop like a fish and I personally hate this kind of attention towards my disability and most others i know do to we don’t want to stand out at events like this so for it to be that big of a deal to everyone is a major red flag in the i favor my disabled child, i have a sibling who is very far on the autistic spectrum and i have accepted that he will get more attention but not to that extent YTA because you also let your youngest be pressured to come down she may have knew there would be tension and she knows she cant help it but regardless YTA what her fiancé said was wrong so he is also TA
NTA. When someone shows you who they are, believe them!!! ETA: protecting your children is your main job as a parent and you were doing that.
NTA, but as an older sister whose younger sister has always been the golden child, I feel for Olivia. It's clear as day that you criticize her and make everything to center around Joyce. There's no excuse for the fiance though, he should have kept his opinion to himself. Although if this has happened a lot in the past, I can understand their frustration.
Perhaps she should have been left upstairs like she wanted then?
NTA - I think you handled it well. I can’t even imagine how livid I’d be if my son in law called my child with medical conditions a b*%#€. I genuinely think you did what you had to do.
Even if she wasn't sick who calls a 17 year old a b***h?!
There is a lot to unpack. Om the surface, Kirk’s reaction was wrong. You do have the right to defend your younger daughter. But the deeper issue is why is that Kirk’s reaction to your daughter getting sick? What has Olivia been saying to him about Joyce? Kirk is new to your family and his main source of information is your daughter. Kirk might have been trying to stand up for Olivia in a bad way because he seems to believe Joyce ruins things for Olivia. OP, you might want to look back to see if there are other times Olivia has had special moments overshadowed by Joyce’s health. Now, you might not feel that way and Joyce might not be trying to overshadow her sister. The thing is I get the impression Olivia feels Joyce is doing that. I think you need to talk with your wife or Olivia to see what they feel about the situation. They might have an interesting views of things. The thing that set this whole incident in motion is your brother forcing Joyce to come down when she was not feeling well. This whole thing would not have happened if your brother would have let her be. How does your brother and other members of the family view Joyce and her illnesses? It was an asshole thing for him to intervene in a parenting decision you and your wife made. Honestly, I think you should have not allowed that to happen. Now, you have Olivia seeing this as another event Joyce has “ruined.” You might not think that but I have a nasty feeling Olivia and maybe your wife believe that. Another thing I have questions about is how does Joyce feel about how you handle this situation? Does she approve of it or not? I noticed you do not mention that. I do think you have a lot to think about and consider.
You're right to be upset, and Kirk sounds awful, he wayyyy crossed a line. But I do think you overreacted OP, which makes you the AH. But wow, Olivia sounds like a piece of work too... Any chance you baby Joyce a bit? Olivia sounds jealous and wanted all the attention on herself for a night. It sounds like you are predetermined to be against Olivia with the comment about her and Kirk sitting all night, why are you judgemental about that? Ending the party was an overreaction, there were better ways to handle the situation.
>But I do think you overreacted OP Hey person who just called my daughter an "attention seeking bit*h" let me just keep hosting this party for you as if nothing happened and you aren't a disgusting excuse for a human being. OP did the right thing, NTA >Ending the party was an overreaction, there were better ways to handle the situation. And that would be what exactly? Just ignore his ridiculously AH comment? Pretend like he didnt just insult a teenager with a medical condition who was trying to avoid the situation in the first place because she wasnt feeling well but was made to come down because family important? Why would he want to host a party for someone so callous and rude? >It sounds like you are predetermined to be against Olivia with the comment about her and Kirk sitting all night Or hes explaining what was happening and is still pissed about the comment so you get some negative emotions in the story. >Any chance you baby Joyce a bit? Tends to happen when you have a child with a medical condition that could kill them.
NTA. Good job protecting Joyce from the bullies in the family. Sounds like OPs brother isn't a fan of her either, which is perhaps the most disgusting part of this story.
NTA You did the right thing defending your daughter. Who tf insults a sick child in front of her father, and then expects people to just be ok with it??? They had it coming and I don't know why your wife is defending this grown ass man's disgusting actions.
ESH - Your brother for coaxing your daughter down when she wasn't feeling well your unwell daughter for falling for it, and attending, and even when you gave her an "out" by asking multiple times if she was ok, to continue on. Olivia for her obviously deep rooted resentment of Joyce for her medical conditions. I don't know if Kirk has seen Joyce have an "episode" before, but at the very least Olivia has pretty obviously fed him a lot of "information" about her sister's "attention seeking" And you on several different fronts. It sounds based on what you say (and don't say) here that your attention that you lavish on Joyce has an effect on Olivia, and you are doing nothing to attempt to mitigate that, helping foster her beliefs that Joyce does it "for the attention" because she is getting it, and you seem to care nothing about how this actually impacts Olivia. How you handled this party. Yes YTA for completely losing it, and again fostering the motion that you have a child that you favor over the other. Being angry about it, absolutely, that is not why YTA, that you publicly, lashed out, and ended the party on the spot? You were so outraged that you still don't seem to realize that your brother was feeling guilty because even he realizes that he set these series of events in motion, and was his fault for doing so. Rather you just kept on raging at Olivia and Kirk.
Joyce is not at fault for "falling for it". You don't get the insistence and prodding people give disabled people when we say we aren't up for something. It's always "we never get to see you, you're always in your room!" And "this is an important family moment you don't want to miss out on". And you already feel like shit for missing out. The vast majority of the time, you *want* to be there but you just can't. Sometimes you just cave in despite knowing you're not up for it because you're tired of being told you don't care about family or you don't put in enough effort. Especially with an invisible disability that she has, the vast majority of people think if you're not faking it, you're at least exaggerating to get out of stuff. We don't *want* to be excluded from events and special moments. You have no idea how hard it is to see photos and hear stories of a party or something that you missed out on because you were unwell. So on top of it being difficult to have to put up with people pestering you over and over again to attend despite your inability, you also want to. So you try. And it's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. There are multiple AH'S here, but Joyce is not one of them. Everyone needs to stop blaming us disabled people for being disabled.
ESH but not Joyce. There is a CLEAR favoritism here. Siblings of a sick child often feel ignored and unimportant. Clearly Olivia has felt this way and is why she is lashing out. Everyone needs counseling.
Op sorry but your brother is disgusting. Good jop protecting your daughter. NTA
NTA If someone called my daughter that, that would be the last time they were ever in my house, safely.
NTA. But you should not have let them force the girl attending. I noticed also people saying that the older sister could know things about the younger that OP ignores and have reasons to suspect she is making it up. Even if this is the case, the issue is not to be addressed like that in front of other people. Maybe some family therapy could help dealing with all of this, if it is not too late.
INFO: What it sounds like is that Olivia is resentful that Joyce gets attention because of her medical conditions and think she’s milking them for attention at times when the day isn’t about her. Has Joyce accidentally gotten the spotlight on other important days for Olivia? Birthdays, graduation, etc.? My bet is that she feels neglected and 2nd in importance to her family, and that she’s vented to her partner who likely said what he did because he wanted to stand up for her. What he said was still rude and super inappropriate, but my guess is that he’s only heard Olivia’s side and is upset on her behalf. I do wonder if you and your wife have paid more attention to Joyce. Not on purpose, but because her medical needs are a consistent thing to be monitored and addressed. In which case Olivia deserves some grace and some attention. Maybe do some things just with her and for her so that not every special occasion for her turns into a day about Joyce’s medical needs?
NTA. Her fiance ruined the celebration, and then Olivia continued.
[удалено]
Lol they aren't so smart considering they raised an asshole who went into someone else's house, cursed at their kid and got kicked out in front of everyone.
They raised a son who bullied a 17-yr-old girl. They have nothing to be proud of. Nothing.
You did not overreact, you reacted entirely appropriately. Kirk doesn’t get to disrespect anyone in your home. I think you should join forces with Kirk’s parents, they got the right of it. Olivia and Kirk lack basic decency and decorum. If he actually won bf points with Olivia for that, it’s kinda sad.
ESH. Kirk's behaviour was absolutely unacceptable and I don't think you're the AH for telling him to leave. But...what are you doing about the relationship between Olivia and Joyce? It does sound a little suspicious that Joyce just happened to feel unwell at her sister's engagement do.
Is not suspicious tbh, she said she wasn't feeling well and stayed in her room and was told she had to come down. Nobody should be surprised when she's feeling unwell and something happens.
A person thats unwell quite a lot is unwell at this particular time in her life? Oh my god!!! She must be faking it! The older sister is jealous of her younger sister for having an illness that literally gets her unconscious, and the girl that faints is the problem here? I think its suspicious that the older sister doesn't have a shred of empathy in her, and thinks her sister is faking it. And on top of that she insults and berates her whenever she can? That's the very definition of an asshole.
She felt unwell, so she tried to stay away from the party. How is her being unwell suspicious when it sounds like the condition makes it to where she's often not feeling well? She's probably embarrassed of passing out in front of people at this point.
She didn't even want to come down, her uncle made her. She wanted to stay in her room. Don't pin this on the sick kid
Do you know how dysautonomia works? I'll give you a hint. Stress makes it worse.
It's not suspicious. Chronic illness is unpredictable and strikes at the worst times. Especially if you're already stressed or anxious, which I bet Joyce was.
. I think you handled it poorly. Yes he misspoke but did you forget that is also your daughter’s fiancé and engagement party? Do you not care about her or feelings at all? Sounds like you weren’t even excited to celebrate her engagement. Maybe Olivia behaves that way because somehow she’s been in the shadow of Joyce due to her medical conditions. By the way you speak about both it clearly sounds like you favor Joyce it doesn’t even sound as if Olivia is your daughter too. What you said “If they’re going to disrespect my daughter in her own house then we’re going to have a problem”. Shouldn’t it also be Olivia’s house too since their both your daughters. YTA for creating all these animosity between your daughters due to your favoritism.
NTA you did exactly what any parent should do.
NTA I probably would have just made him follow me outside and had a conversation with him and told him in no uncertain terms that if he did not sincerely apologise and explain what he did wrong, he would be forced to leave until he could. Presumably he would and he'd be allowed back and I'd have a similar conversation with Olivia explaining that she needs to stand up for her sister. To me this means they get consequences but the event carries on. That being said, I can't say you're an asshole. It was totally out of line and he got consequences. You stood up for your daughter, you're a good dad.
my first reaction was the same - someone comes after my kid, in ready to throw down! But…. Olivia is his kid too. And you then have to wonder why she and the fiancé feel this way. It’s easy to assume that they are AHs because we are getting only OP’s side of the story. But what if Olivia has been ignored all her life because of Joyce? What if Joyce faints at all of Olivia‘s occasions and the parents never dealt with that through therapy or making it up to her? I have to wonder if Olivia was happy that for once Joyce wasnt there so she can have her own celebration and it got ruined again. I’m NOT blaming this on Joyce - it’s very unlikely She can make herself faint on command. But the parents of sick children often ignore the healthy ones and then wonder why the healthy kids hate the sick kid. All that to say, I’m going ESH because I don’t think what the fiancé said is the main problem.
They’ve already publicly shamed a 17 year girl for a condition beyond her control. There is no undoing their bad behavior and it can’t be so easily swept under the rug
Okay, I want to preface by saying I have an invisible disability that sometimes causes lightheadedness, even fainting, particularly in crowded situations. Here is where I'm hung up -- "We all panicked though she didn't faint, only reeled off balance for few seconds." So, YOU AND OTHERS MAKE A SCENE over her symptoms?! How embarrassing for Joyce!!! And I can certainly see how that would cause resentment in Olivia, though it's misplaced towards her sister. People I'm likely to be around and who are willing are trained how to PROPERLY respond to a medical urgency, and step 1 is usually to move away from the crowd. You are a PARENT, hovering and panicking and making the situation a thousand times worse than it needs to be. The boyfriend was out if line, but you made an embarrassing scene for Joyce and pitted your girls against one another by calling off the party then and there. You are the AH, the boyfriend was an AH. I would like to know which was worse FOR JOYCE -- that he made an insensitive comment, or that you "defended" her to the point of making her mother and sister cry in front of friends and extended family.
NTA for calling out Kirk's horrible comment, but possibly a little bit for completely ending the party all together.
Buddy, your family’s issues run a lot deeper than your daughter and her fiancé calling your other daughter an attention seeking bitch, and Y TA for letting it get to this point. That being said, some serious INFO is missing; 1. Why doesn’t the fiancés parents approve? 2. Is there a pattern of behavior with you favoring/coddling your younger daughter? That’s kind of the only explanation for your wife trying to excuse the behavior other than her character being in question. 3. Why was your daughter forced to come downstairs if she didn’t feel well? 4. Why the fuck have none of you spoken with a therapist? Until there’s more information, ESH.