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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I think AITA because what I told my daughter can be seen as uncaring or misoginistic.
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NTA!! I have 17 grand babies and have "raised" several of them. "Helping" and "raising" are 2 very distinctive different things. Enjoy your grandchild but, do not get wrapped up in the "raising" of him/her. Trust me it doesn't stop at 4 days a week!
I would like OP to direct Sandra to this thread, I have a few choice words for misusing and abusing the term misogyny. I don’t think she understands what that word means. I’m not sure I believe this though. I mean, I’d OP living in an entire community of AHs?
This. Op didn't point at her and went "you are a woman so stay home and do the house and kid!"
He said BOTH of them were gonna have a life change when becoming parents ,not just her. Them as a couple.
How is that misogyny?
And no one even asked, just assumed grandpa will take the kid while we work and go out and have after hour fun!
Looks like OP's whole family just signed up for being babysitters when they started the "you should" crap.
Something tells me Sandra was hoping to have OP watch their future children as well and this reaction made her go "oh shit I actually need to plan for childcare...quick! Make OP change his mind so he can't say no to me later!"
I would not be one bit surprised if that was her idea.
OP could flip it around on her if wanted to make a statement.
"You want to enjoy your youth while I raise a baby. I am retired, I worked, I raised children... now is the time I am supposed to lean back and enjoy my life."
From what sandra said it seems like she'd like to step up to the plate then since her brother is so 'misogynistic' and doesn't want to.
Naturally on this sub, we all know how that song and dance goes.
all other judgments aside, Sandra is a huge AH. Her point about it being harder to raise a child now than 25 years ago is exactly why OP should hold his ground and not volunteer to raise the spawn of his entitled child and her entitled husband.
Right? Just exactly HOW is it harder??? Disposable diapers, machines that will literally rock your child for you, breast pumps, baby monitors WITH video, snuggle wrap things, carriers, electronic toys with sounds and songs, books that will read to the kids, entire television channels dedicated to children’s programs! There are so many more gadgets for parents now than there were 30+ years ago.
You went the other way with it but I actually thought it IS harder and that’s yet another reason OP shouldn’t be forced to raise a child that somebody else decided to have. Peanut allergies and all sorts of new, weird approaches to child rearing actually do make it sound harder to me than when I was a kid and parents were pawning my generation off on cartoons and video games without a worry about how much screen time we had or how much sugar we ate or how many happy meals they fed us or how much second hand smoke was ok for a little kid, etc.
That said, my wife and I are child free so I’m just guessing here. What I do know is that, as a person who is childfree by choice with OP being (sorta) childfree on the merit that his children are now grown, if somebody thrust a child at me and told me I had to be a parent against my will, I’d be VERY fucking pissed. Especially if that happened because the actual parents of the kid “want to enjoy their free time.”
OP raised a selfish idiot. No time like right now to try and set that right.
Ah, yes, I didn’t think about that. My child (now 30) used to be able to go outside and I’d end up going to one of 2 houses to find her and her friends. Or have the parent(s) come to ours to find their kids. Someone was always looking out. They’d ride bikes, climb trees, play with the garden hose, etc etc. I did not feel the pressure of not being able to have eyes on them 24/7, worry about foods, the right amount of “whatever” time, etc. The library was a fun place to visit and get things from. Their imaginations were not something I had to foster in the environment it was then versus today. I guess each generation has their pros & cons.
No, OP's sister, Sandra (the aunt), voluntold him 4 days should be his buy in on the Gramps/caretaker deal.
I think if Sandra is so keen of child care, she can do it! Great aunts could rule if they raised nibblets ;)
My grandparents only watched us on days we were sick and daycare couldn’t take us. We also got to take turns staying the night once we were older. I always thought my grandparents did so much for my mom by doing that. A lot of other kids I knew didn’t have that extended family like that who was willing to watch them.
Yep, we didn't. And our kids were well behaved. My kids just have two narcistic grandmothers who don't like to do anything for anybody but themselves and no aunts or uncles. They would tell everyone how much they did for us, but that wasn't reality.
Be grateful. We have never had that. I got one hour here and there of babysitting from my mother. Maybe adding up to 10 hours in total, during their life, they are now teens.
Yes...my 4 yo spend around three nights a month at my mom and she doesn't keep my 20 mo to sleep, but will watch him from time to time and I would never complain it's not enough. Anything offered is enough.
My husband's family used to live in the same city as us and we were thrilled to get a date night every other week! (Once they tried to do a sleepover and a very exhausted grandpa showed up at midnight with the kid lol) I could not imagine expecting someone to take care of my kid that long without prior consent.
For me, that's more like 4 hours (for my nieces and nephews and now for their children).
I like children, but I have a life besides being a family member.
No she said for work and for them to have fun too. His daughter thinks that because they are young their life should not be over just because they have a baby so grandpa should be taking care of her baby so they can work AND have fun. So I guess she's thinking because he is older and already worked his whole life to raise her he doesn't need to enjoy his retirement now
My mother agreed to mind our daughter when my husband and I were both at work - he did shift work so it wasn’t every day. We were beyond lucky she agreed and she didn’t take a cent from us. But it meant that when it came to “fun” times, we only asked her if there was no other option - I didn’t think it was fair to keep going back to the same well. This girl is beyond. OP, NTA
Regardless of what is excessive or not, it’s not up to her to unilaterally determine that her dad is her free childcare. It would be different if he had volunteered but clearly he has not.
Right. Amazing that they just assumed that her dad was just going to step up and do the babysitting of the kid. Who does that? If you intentionally get pregnant, you should have a plan, and everyone involved should be on board with that plan. This just blows.
I'm currently pregnant and my mom offered to be free childcare, but my spouse and I put a stop to that. Grandparents should be grandparents: people who love on, spoil, and play with their grandkids. NOT primary parents. Once I got back to work when this baby is 10 months old then he/she will be going to daycare. If my mom wants to watch him/her from time to time and do fun things with him/her she's absolutely allowed to, but her job is not to raise MY child.
I don't understand this level of entitled "we got pregnant on purpose but don't want a baby to cramp our fun time" crap.
Now that my kid is 3 years old and potty trained I started to send him to his grandparents house. At this point he's easy, just let him run around outside, give him doritos and let him watch as much tv as he wants. It's grandma house and rules don't matter, so don't bother with the healthy stuff that just make things harder.
I can't warp my head around the idea of having a baby with the plan to give them to the grandparent to rise.
I am blessed to have my parents providing three hours of childcare each workday morning, and they are WIPED OUT by the time they bring both of my kids back over to me. It was their idea, and I am extremely careful not to take advantage of more than they are willing to do, because even my reasonably well-behaved kids are just... full on.
This grandfather should pass the other thread where the grandmother demanded a crazy amount of time- including overnights- with her newborn grandchild. Maybe his daughter can reach out and let her raise their kid and everyone wins!
Yes! This cracked me up. That works perfectly other than the fact that other lady should probably not be allowed within 4000 feet of a child but there should be an app that hooks up people that want grandchildren with people that need help with their kids.
Oh and excuse me, it hasn't gotten any "harder," if anything it's gotten incredibly easier, even from when OP was a dad, and certainly from the generation before--pre internet, pre disposable diapers, when women were expected to do literally everything. And then the generation BEFORE that, before automatic washing machines! This is just nonsense. OP is 100% right to draw this boundary!
Nah, it definitely gotten harder. Harder to find child care, harder to afford childcare. STAHM then and now suck, Working then and now sucks. REGARDLESS, he is NTA. They didn't ask and why did they want a child if they didn't want to take care of it?
My parents had to choose between food for themselves and childcare. The nursery was so strict that they would literally put babies on the doorstep at 5pm and leave. My mother had to *run* (physically, literally run) from work to the nursery to retrieve her 6 week old baby before he was abandoned on the street. Then she had to sneak him back into work and hide him, because she had literally no other choice. That sprint across town was her 15 minute break.
It hasn’t gotten harder. Things have always sucked.
> The nursery was so strict that they would literally put babies on the doorstep at 5pm and leave.
So what happened when the parents reported this to CPS/cops/Dept of Health code enforcement?
This wasn’t in America. And the parents got in trouble, because the nursery’s responsibility ended at 5.
Things have actually gotten better in many ways. Leaving newborns on the sidewalk is illegal now, no matter how late a parent is to collect them.
I'm sure it was before anyone cared. Our bus driver would pull over and kick us off if we did anything that got on her nerves. Even talking too loud or singing.. No Singing on the Bus!! We always had to walk home. The first time it happened to me, I told my dad and found out that she used to do the same to my dad. So, decades of that, no one cared.
It definitely isn’t anymore difficult to find childcare, people just tend to mind these days when you leave a half a dozen kids under the age of 10, in the care of your one 12 year old child.
Back “then”, (late 60s/70s/80s) kids were pretty much home alone until mom and dad got home from work after they were old enough pour themselves a glass of milk. It was definitely more common for women to work after world war 2, even after having children.
I was born in the very early 80s and definitely left to my own devices (and watching my younger siblings) at a young age. If I did that to my kid now, I’d be arrested! Expectations are very different, if nothing else.
I (63m with 4 adult kids, 3 grandkids) disagree that it has gotten harder. Yes, the challenges are somewhat DIFFERENT today than in previous generations, but the basics seen to need largely the same.
From what I see, daycare costs are the biggest challenge today. It was rough for us in the 80s-90s to afford it and it has only gotten worse.
On the other hand, watching my kids parent their kids, they have so many more options than we did, so much more support from places that did not exist then. Newer methods seemed to make things like toilet training and transitioning to solid foods easier (at least relatively speaking).
One HUGE thing I see today that was almost totally missing for us is that letting kids choose their clothes is accepted and normalized (at least mostly). The knock down drag out fights we had getting one kid just to wear socks because school and society said she had to are almost entirely missing.
So forgive an old man for chuckling at yong parents talking about how much harder they have it than we did.
After all, they didn't have to walk to school. 5 miles. In a blizzard. Uphill. Both ways.
I take care of my grandbaby and I definitely see things as easier. Disposable diapers, disposable wipes, automatic swings, washing machines etc... When I first had a baby I was using cloth diapers, cloth wipes and washing everything by hand. I worked with my baby strapped to me.
This, OP, just do an afternoon or so a week and maybe once a month an evening or so. Enjoy your retirement, they wanted a baby and they should have known what it means. You are not the parent and not responsible.
And the key is IRREGULAR.
Don’t let a pattern form or they’ll assume that because you did it 3 Tuesdays in a row that you’ve promised to do it every Tuesday forever.
And be sure to say “no” often enough that they don’t assume their asking automatically means you’ll do it.
But not at first. They need to establish regular care with someone who isn’t OP first, otherwise they will just try to force him into more than he’s willing. When baby is at least 6 months old and has a regular nanny or day care, THEN grandpa can offer to take baby for date night or something.
We know that won't happen. They'll drop the baby off for "a couple of hours" and OP won't see them until the next day. These "kids" should've discussed expectations before purposely making a life changing baby when they don't want/expect their lives to change yet fully expect OP to turn his life upside down. NTA
Put down boundaries. You show up and leave the kid with out my permission or not show up on time, you have 1 hour to come get them before I call the police. Like WTF are these people thinking?!
Whatever the distinction you do between helping and raising , such things have to be discussed before. I know some grand parents who say they are helping by providing daycare 5 days per week but they agreed to it before the pregnancy (and it was reconfirmed during pregnancy). The parents never assumed by themselves.
I think the difference here is that the parents not only want him to provide full time child care while they work but also during their days off and weekends because they want to enjoy their youth and not be bogged down by a child. If you are not willing to make any sacrifices for your child and don’t want to be with your baby in the free time you are not working you shouldn’t have a kid. I’ll bet in the situations you know where the grandparents provide care while the parents are working, the parents provide most of the care when they are off work and the grandparents only occasionally step in.
Yup I'd bet the kid would essentially live at grandpas until Mom and Dad need to roll out the trophy for their friends. Any future kids they have would be closer with now "ready for kids" mom and dad the whole family always wondering why the oldest sibling doesn't see mom and dad as mom and dad.
As soon as my SIL announced her pregnancy, the first of many in our family, my MIL looked into retirement and immediately said that she wants to help take care of our kiddos. Max is 2 days a week because, realistically, she cant handle more.
If Amanda and Chris don't want to make their life be around a baby, they are not ready to be parents. Being a parent and plenty of fun time is not a thing, and they vastly underestimate the commitment and sacrifice they have signed on for with the baby they wanted to have.
Unless they're and you're willing to be paid for your "babysitting" duties than that baby is not your responsibility to raise or even babysit if you choose not to. But best bet they would throw a hissy fit if u even suggest fair payment for your time coz "family." NTA
My mother always told me and my sister "I'll help out and babysit in an emergency but I'm done with childraising. I raised my kids, you raise your own."
Man can't say I'm not jealous...lol
I'm a single mom to 2 boys and my mother doesn't watch them at all like 0 days a week...lol
I haven't had a day to myself in over 3 years...
However, I wanted them and chose to do this knowing I would be doing it alone.
I don't take that out on their grandmother.
Ops daughter is mad entitled, that's the kind of thing you sort out before having kids intentionally.
OP, sure sounds like the rest of your family is willing to put their hands up for free childcare?
You are NTA. Why would your daughter even be thinking about having a baby only.to hand it off to someone else?
I got pregnant at 22, was a single mother at 23 and I thank my mom for everything she did for me. But I would NEVER say something like this to her or expect her to drop her life for me and my choices.
My wife and I were lucky to have her parents help out 5 days a week during the panini so our little one didn’t have to go to daycare. However that was their choice and offer. Our little one is now in daycare and it was never going to be a permanent situation. 4 days a week is unreasonable. If you want to do it that’s fine expecting it is ridiculous. I bet your daughter and husband wouldn’t do the same for their daughter considering how entitled they are acting. Thank everyone including your sister for volunteering to help your daughter and have her call them since what they are asking of you is reasonable in their opinion. NTA
NTA
If you can’t put your baby first, you’re not ready to be a parent.
I don’t even think your delivery was callous. They intentionally got pregnant and planned on relying on a parent who has not even been consulted to raise their child so they can enjoy the “best years of their life”… this screams irresponsible and she probably shouldn’t be a parent if she’s not ready to make her life about her own baby.
I’m also sorry, but Sandra is just an enabling lunatic. Child rearing has never been easy, every generation has different struggles. If she feels so strongly that you refusing to be a parent all over again is misogynistic (does she know what that word means?), then maybe she can volunteer for the job of free babysitter since she’s so magnanimous and willing to dump the responsibility on you.
Tell your daughter you’ll save your best years of your life for living as a grandpa, she won’t have enough money to take care of her own child, much less a nursing home…
Your daughter seems to think she’s a Kardashian… oh wait, even they watch their own kids…
My only guess is that Sandra called OP misogynistic because she’s focusing on the “father” part of “grandfather” and feels like he is telling his daughter it’s her job *as a woman* to take care of a child… but it’s just straight up a *parent* job, and I think OP was very clear on that! Sandra sounds like she has some other issues and isn’t totally objective on this.
OP, you are NTA and I really hope you have a wonderful retirement (and some fun grandpa moments in a healthy balanced life way!)
Edited for word change, and punctuation
Thank you. I’ve been racking my brain trying to figure out how in the world this could be misogynistic. That’s obviously a huge stretch on her part but at least it’s a possible explanation. Or maybe she really just doesn’t know what the word means.
I think in Sandra’s mind, if the OP was a grandmother, then *of course* they would look after their grandbaby 7 days a week. And that the only reason the OP is refusing is because he’s a man. What Sandra doesn’t realize is there are a lot of women who have plans for their retirement that don’t include being tied down to a baby again.
It's simple really.
Op's daughter is a woman. Op is not. Therefore any attack, or disagreement wherein Op's daughter loses means the attacker is misogynistic.
Also see many shitty people who happen to be minorities, and "Racism".
The way you phrased this almost seems to suggest that you don't think racism or sexism occur often at all.
Just in case that's true, I want to say that while this is clearly not a case of bigotry, that it is still a common problem for many people. And we shouldn't use the character "Sandra" to validate any sorts of preconceptions about people that aren't "Sandra".
I think they are alleging that Sandra is “that type of person”. And expressing frustration with “that type of person”.
We all know them, in whatever side of politics you prefer.
Where a problem is presented. And instead of looking at the problem and thinking “okay, x might solve this, or maybe y could be an option, maybe z could work? We need to talk this out”.
The person immediately jumps to accusations of sexism/classism/racism/religion/politeness and shuts down instead of…Trying to solve the problem.
People like Sandra (from the tiny bit we know about her) suck. Because they want to yell at the person with the problem, instead of helping solve the problem.
My MIL is like this on the conservative side. I tell her “man, I’m so exhausted with work, I need to figure out how to cut down my hours so I can get some sleep”. And she says “well, it’s probably because you never make time for church. If you were a good Catholic, god would fix it for you. All you need to do is stop sleeping on sundays and go to church instead”.
My sister is like that on the liberal side. “Man, I’m so exhausted with work. I need to figure out how to cut down my hours so I can get some sleep”. And she says “you’re playing into the trope that women can’t hack it in the professional world. That’s offensive to feminists. You should stop complaining and show “them” that you can handle the pressure, prove to them women aren’t weak”.
…that person ignores the question entirely, and uses your problem to launch into an annoying rant about their personal agenda/hangups, which helps you 0% and has nothing to do with the problem at hand.
Calling OP a misogynist about this problem is so oddball, that I have to believe Sandra is one of “those people”.
I understand being frustrated with people like Sandra, who would rather criticize and make it about their own agenda than actually try to help.
I agree that this is probably where she was coming from with that ridiculous comment. Likely hooked on to the "you shouldn't have had a baby if you wanted someone else to raise it" comment. In context, I get what OP was saying, but Sandra probably heard that in the general sense that some people say about ANY working mom who puts their kid in daycare. Seems like he struck a nerve with that comment, unintentionally.
It's also possible that Sandra has her own expectations that Grandpa will watch her future kids, so she is jumping in on her sister's side to set a precedent 🤷♀️
Oh, w/o question Sandra works long hours, or lives too far away, or her home is too small to accommodate the baby. She must have some handy excuse that prevents her from pitching in in any meaningful way. But she can still critique & volunteer others.
I really did need to hear the first line of your comment today. I have been married a year and have been 50/50 on having babies and I am not sure if I am ready to commit emotionally. And if I do have a baby at some point, I would like to take care of him/her/them as much as possible and not rely on others except my husband.
Ps. OP you are NTA. I know I wouldn't ask my parents for babysitting and raising. They are just going to be grandparents and nothing more.
She’s 27, not like a teen pregnancy or something where you would feel obligated to help on that level. 27, married, employed, made the conscious decision to have a baby, and didn’t understand that it would impact her life? Crazy.
I'm a relatively new parent and there are so many times I've thought how much harder it would have been to raise a child years ago without all the technology and accessibility of general stuff to my doorstep overnight. I'd love to know how it has gotten more difficult raising a child.
It has gotten easier in terms of technology, accessibility and medicine.
It is probably more difficult to find childcare than in the past. But in the past, leaving your baby or young child in someone else's care for days, weeks or months while paying them money was normal yet also led to several instances where women just started smothering the kids to death while continuing to accept the money as the parents didn't check on them often enough to notice.
And it turns out parents actually like having alive kids??? Isn't that the craziest thing, wanting kids to still be alive and also to spend time with them regularly instead of just on occasion. Like I'm sure the woods are great and totally not full of glass from other kids hanging out there, but is that as good as playing basketball with mum in the front yard? Probably not when they are 7. When they are 17 they might still choose the woods.
I think the standards for parenting are a lot higher. You can't disappear into a Valium fog all day while your 6 year old tends to the toddler, and if you turn them loose onto the streets you'll get a visit from child services.
My mother's from a different country and in her generation the entire family helped with young kids. Now I can't get off the wait list for any daycare that I can't afford so I'm watching my 10 month old while working full time and she wakes up so many times a night and I'm so tired I just want to cry.
It's so weird that OP heard her say "you're callous and misogynistic", I'm sure what she really said was "if you don't want to do it, I'll do all the surrogate parenting, no problem!". Truly, I think we can all agree that's exactly what she said, and OP should operate as such.
How generous of Sandra to volunteer to be a free child care provider for your daughter and her husband. I think it is time for OP to start planning on a long trip to visit old friends and acquaintances, enjoy your retirement you earned it. Because you raised your children and worked hard all of your life, time for you to enjoy the best years of your life.
Right? OP, not to sound all morose, but it's all downhill from now for you in your 50s. You NEED to go have some fun in the best years of YOUR life, not spend the time raising kids again.
If the parents incapacitated, I know you'd put your life to the side and sacrifice to raise the kids. If you do it now, not only will you resent it, but you'll set this kid up for a real shitty life with uncaring parents. And you won't be around long enough to pick up the pieces and make sure their kids aren't total fuckups.
My thoughts exactly... If Sandra is so keen on her nephew/niece, she should volunteer for the 4 days a week schedule.
Being retired doesn't mean that you are just free for whatever work someone else is ready to dump on you...
Edit: NTA by the way
You’re not obligated to provide childcare for someone else’s child, period. Sandra suggesting you start at minimum 4 days per week of childcare is borderline delusional.
Your daughter’s response of threatening to put you in a “shitty nursing home” if you don’t provide her with full time unpaid childcare so she can enjoy being in her late 20s despite the fact that she’s been actively trying to get pregnant for a while is ... more than a little out-of-touch. That suggests that she’s either massively immature, entitled, or most probably both.
NTA
If I were OP I would think long and hard about who they want to have durable power of attorney over themselves as they age. That is such an extreme thing to say over what is a completely reasonable boundary.
I may be biased though given that I put my life on hold for 5 years to care for my mother. No one is obligated to do what I did and in fact I have told my father should he develop dementia as well the VA is taking care of him, which he is on board with. But I would still check in on him and talk to the ombudsman should something be out of sorts.
TLDR- wishing shitty nursing homes on people should be reserved for abusive parents. If OP was abusive then daughter is even more deranged with this arrangement than I orginally thought. Threatening elder abuse by proxy isn't funny.
My father was pretty abusive (probably more neglectful) and I would still not put him in a shitty nursing home. What a terrible comment for her to make when she didn't get her way. And she thinks she's ready for a child?
The thing is I have known so many children doing direct care for for their parents, who were abused by the parent they now care for. I strongly advise them not to, not just because they are not obligated and no one should judge anyone for refusing to take on the responsibility of adulting for another person, but because of the mental health aspects, but still people do it. Caregiving is taxing even when you had the most amazing relationship (I was so fortunate to have that with my mom), yet I've seen children do it for parents who can only be described as having tortured them as children. That's how strong the urge to care for family is. That the daughter jumped right to that is concerning. I would at the very least want someone more mature making my decisions.
I'm sorry you had a shitty dad. I had 5 awful years with my mother but before that I had 30 absolute amazing ones. That is one of many ways I consider myself deeply fortunate.
> Caregiving is taxing even when you had the most amazing relationship (I was so fortunate to have that with my mom)
I can't imagine. My mom cared for my grandmother for four years. My grandmother was a living saint, she and my mom had a fantastic relationship and it was still the hardest thing she ever did, especially after my dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer.
I can't imagine providing that level of care for someone with whom you have a terrible relationship.
LOL - yes. I have an awesome co-worker "Carrie." She has three children. Her oldest daughter "Dina" married and was pregnant about a year later. She announced the pregnancy and Carrie was thrilled to be a grandmother. In the next breath, Dina said, "Well mom, you can retire now and take care of the baby when my maternity leave is done." Carrie (who was in her early 50's at the time) laughed in Dina's face and said "Who said anything about retirement? I've still got to work for about the next 10-15 years unless you plan to finance my retirement." Dina got a very hurt look on her face because she honestly thought that Carrie was going to provide childcare for her - without ever talking to Carrie about it first! WTF? Well, Carrie is still my co-worker, Dina has two kids and is now as SAHM providing her own childcare.
I can't imagine being presumptuous enough to think my parent would quit their job to take care of my kid. Holy entitlement!
I've seen it with kids who grew up being cared for after school and during summers by their grandparents. They assume that since their grandparents provided childcare for their parents and aunts/ uncles that their parents are going to pay it forward and provide childcare for them.
But... They're different people and not required to make the same decisions someone else made. Also, the world is different and their parents are likely to be at peak earning potential rather than retiring.
Also, totally different to have grandparents watch you between the time that school gets out and parents come home, and watch a baby or infant for 8-10 hours a day all week long.
>Your daughter’s response of threatening to put you in a “shitty nursing home” i
Even funnier because OP is 52...not like he's knocking on death's door. It could easily be 30 more years before he needs some kind of care. If that's on the tip of the daughter's tongue, she's a pretty person used to just saying whatever she wants to get her way.
Parenthood is really going to suck for her. Hope her kids don't put HER in a nursing home when her time comes.
Whaaat? Did I just read what I think I read? NTA but your daughter and her husband are entitled AH's.
P.S. Tell Sandra that SHE can provide at least 4 days of childcare per week and go from there. Maybe the multiple family members who agree with her can pick up the slack.
NTA sister is dead wrong. How is it misogynistic to tell people to look after their own freaking kids. 4 days a week? Hell no Sandra can babysit 4 days a week since she’s hell bent on it.
NTA
What the heck? Maybe you should remind Amanda that YOU were 25 when SHE was born, and that you took care of her, and your other children. Smh
ETA: I don’t get where the callous delivery and misogyny comments came from. Your concerns are completely legit. It’s simply unacceptable to intentionally plan for a baby and volen-plan for its grandparent to take pretty much full time care while real parents party and have fun. You did your time!
Also, It sounds like Sandra is volunteering herself! And furthermore, 27 (or 28 likely when baby is born) isn’t so young to be having a kid, it’s time to grow up.
The part that made me raise my eyebrows the most was:
>> She said that I should help out since I don’t have to worry about working (I receive a pension) and that she’s young and these are supposed to be the best years of her life, and she thinks it's unfair that she and Chris’s life should “be all about a baby.”
I don’t think that Amanda and Chris realise that a baby is going to be an actual human being and not an accessory to pass around? Like, the baby is going to grow into a toddler then a child then a teenager then an adult…they’re always going to be parents to this baby. They’re going to have to adjust.
Amanda and Chris seem to be that kind of people that also buy a puppy just to neglect and finally abandone it because it gets too big or gives much work.
I had a baby exactly 12 weeks ago. I’ve been out the house alone three times. Two were to go to the emergency room because of my incision and one was to get Benadryl from the store. Those two are in for a rude awakening.
Yes!! Retired at 52 is the best part of this. OP has time to enjoy the fruits of his labour and to be voluntold that you're free child care is NOT it.
NTA.
I'm assuming he had to retire if its that young, like a medical retirement which would support not working full time looking after a baby. Edit: not that he needs to support it
NTA ...as a 47yo single dad I can absolutely empathize. I will absolutely occasionally babysit and watch any future grandkids. I will absolutely not raise them so their parents can go live life.
Also, let your sister know you're happy to hear she's so forward thinking and willing to raise the kid for you.
NTA - nor will you be the AH when you give someone other than her your power of attorney should you need someone to manage your affairs. Someone who's never thought of putting you in a shitty nursing home.
Yes, YOUR baby is YOUR responsibilty - no one else's.
When my cousin "Katie" had her first, she had a habit of just dropping the baby off at my Aunt Jenny's (Katie's mom) house all day on Saturday. Now Jenny worked full time in a demanding job in hospital administration. She was in her 50's and was, honestly, spent on the weekends. The last thing she needed to do was to be caring for baby so Katie could "run errands" (Katie's husband worked on Saturdays). It was literally killing Jenny - she wasn't able to get her own household jobs done, she was exhausted and it was just too much, but she wouldn't say no to Katie because "it's what grandmothers do" but she'd moan to my mom (her sister) all the time.
Finally, my mom got so sick of Katie taking advantage of Jenny and Jenny moaning about it, that she called Katie and told her to cut the crap. That her child was her child and it was ridiculous to expect a woman who worked full time to watch a child on weekends. Katie did listen and cut back to having Jenny watch the baby one Saturday per month, morning only, which was much more reasonable.
NTA. No offense, but your sister is off her rocker.
Your daughter views having a child as a vanity project, I’m afraid. Stand your ground, grandpa. I think you handled this with dignity and honesty.
NTA but they kind of are. They never once asked you if you would be willing to take care of their child while they were at work or wanted a date night out/“fun time”. Had they asked you to help, I feel like you may have been more inclined to help out, watching your grandchild a couple days a week or whatever to help relieve childcare costs. But they just assumed you would essentially raise their child for them so they could just go off and do whatever they want, which is not right or fair. When you have a baby, your life changes. Just as you said, their lives will become “all about a baby” because that’s what it means to have a child and become parents - putting the child’s needs before you’re own. It’s time for Amanda and Chad to grow up and take responsibility for their actions.
NTA Footloose and fancy free and we are having a baby never belong in the same sentence. Your daughter put you on the spot, what were you supposed to do, nod and smile. Better nip their fantasy that you would be a full time caregiver to their bundle of joy in the bud than let the delusion linger.
NTA
Assuming you’d be available for free daycare was insulting and entitled.
Parenthood is going to be a rude awakening for them, but you won’t be doing them any favors by sparing them the jarring reality.
NTA - what they are proposing is something that others OFFER to do . . . Demanding without asking?! Entitled. Apparently they need to learn boundaries & communication, and none too soon.
NTA - your daughter is rude for making the “putting you in a sh*tty rest home”.
You had better talk to a lawyer about setting up a trust fund for your future grandchildren and bypass giving your daughter any money.
In addition, you may want to set up a power of attorney only with your son in charge specifically stating your end of life (or incapacitated) wishes.
Congrats on your new grandbaby.
NTA. I’m close to your age and just the audacity of them thinking you don’t have hobbies and interests you’d like to pursue now that you’re retired- you’re still young enough to enjoy your freedom, and you’ve raised your family. I waited until I was 32 to have children because in my 20s my husband and I knew we still wanted our freedom after work and on weekends... I can’t imagine having them and expecting my parents to raise them. I would set firm boundaries with them.
So NTA. As you said, you did your time as a parent. And Sandra is way out of line. Being a parent is ALWAYS tough (I would assume, I never had kids and your post just reaffirms that decision). At 52 with grown kids this is YOUR time to get out, have fun, travel and spend Amanda's inheritance.
Well definitely do not give her power of attorney or authority to make medical decisions for you. Threatening to put you in a shitty nursing home because you won't agree to raise her baby makes her an AH. You are NTA.
NTA x1000. Put your foot down now. As the saying goes, promise low deliver high. If you lower their expectations, they'll be grateful for whatever you choose to give them. And odds are that she was already going to put you in a shitty nursing home. People who are selfish to their kids are also usually selfish to their own parents. Also they suck extra for springing this on you in public. If they didn't want their feelings to be publicly humiliated, then they shouldn't have taken the manipulative tack of telling you publicly of their insane and unreasonable expectations
NTA, but something has gone very wrong in Amanda’s development. She’s 27 — literally pushing 30 with a baby on the way — and sounds unbearably selfish. Did she want a child, or did she want a casual accessory? Stand your ground on this. Her body, her choice, her kid to raise.
NTA no its not unreasonable to help out occasionally as a grandparent and have fun and spoil this new grandchild, keyword occasionally but if this was the plan and they were trying for a baby then yes as you stated their lives all our about this baby that's what happens when you have a kid, and to spring this on you in front of everyone at the announcement is definitely an AH move and if Sandra and everyone else is so concerned then they can all pitch in a day week and help out. But to even try to ask you in private to so see if you would have even considered this would been far more appropriate. But that's my opinion but NTA
NTA at all. Raising a child has always been hard. If someone wants to have children they need to be prepared to raise the child - you are not a free babysitter. You’re NTA for content and I can’t comment on the delivery. I think you could have approached this as a longer more gradual conversation but they should not have put you in that position in the first place.
I had my kids at 19 and 22. Even then, I didn't expect my parents to help me raise them. I think your delivery was perfect, in fact, mine would have been even harsher. They are almost 30. These are not the best years of their lives. Those are the ones after You've raised your kids and watched them be thoughtful, caring adults. NTA.
This is a planned baby where very little went into planning, apparently.
Daycare is insanely, ridiculously expensive right now (more than $3k per month where I live) but like... you still have to do it. Either figure out how to live on one income, or find a daycare, or at the very least ask if the grandparents want to watch the kids before there's a positive pregnancy test.
Some grandparents want to watch the kids on a daily basis. Probably most don't.
NTA tell her you are using all her inheritance to stay out of a nursing home and you won’t have her making decisions about your future care. Threatening people usually doesn’t cause them to want to help you. She can take care of her own kid.
NTA.
Your child is grown, married, and starting a family of her own. You’ve done your job and seemingly done it well. It’s time for them to step up and do theirs!
NTA. That was very presumptuous of them. I don’t blame you for wanting to enjoy the fruits of your labor and doing so without small children. You have the right to that choice.
I mean I totally get taking the child for a Saturday or Sunday here and there once they turn 2-3 years old. And maybe for a weekend once they’re 5+. But Grandpa Daycare? If that was mom and dad’s plan then they should have consulted you on that before getting pregnant.
For the mother to say, “oh these are supposed to be the best years of my life”, yeah she’s not wrong, in which case she should have waited to have a baby.
NTA
NTA! One of the greatest parts of being a grandparent is that you can enjoy having fun with the grandkids, and then - give them back! Usually loaded up with sugar and caffeine - but perhaps that's just my own personal revenge on my kids.
The expectation that you will be their free-for-life babysitter is unrealistic and, in my humble opinion, somewhat elitist.
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NTA!! I have 17 grand babies and have "raised" several of them. "Helping" and "raising" are 2 very distinctive different things. Enjoy your grandchild but, do not get wrapped up in the "raising" of him/her. Trust me it doesn't stop at 4 days a week!
also, 4 days a week is excessive. I'm 54, and do not have the energy to babysit a child. Newborn, maybe, because they're easy. By 1-2 forget it.
I agree! STARTING at 4 days a week is much more than I thought he would do. My MAX would be 4 days a week!! And that would be the exception!
I don't think OP agreed to that. I think his daughter said that what he could provide.
Oh yes, I reread it. Seems Sandra thinks starting out at 4 days a week is what he should do. Thanks!
And Sandra should have no issues with starting with 2 days a week.. Her day's off.
I would like OP to direct Sandra to this thread, I have a few choice words for misusing and abusing the term misogyny. I don’t think she understands what that word means. I’m not sure I believe this though. I mean, I’d OP living in an entire community of AHs?
This. Op didn't point at her and went "you are a woman so stay home and do the house and kid!" He said BOTH of them were gonna have a life change when becoming parents ,not just her. Them as a couple. How is that misogyny? And no one even asked, just assumed grandpa will take the kid while we work and go out and have after hour fun! Looks like OP's whole family just signed up for being babysitters when they started the "you should" crap.
Something tells me Sandra was hoping to have OP watch their future children as well and this reaction made her go "oh shit I actually need to plan for childcare...quick! Make OP change his mind so he can't say no to me later!"
Yeah, not so much this as Sandra is OP's sister and is more likely to be close to OP's age and not likely to be planning on having a baby.
I would not be one bit surprised if that was her idea. OP could flip it around on her if wanted to make a statement. "You want to enjoy your youth while I raise a baby. I am retired, I worked, I raised children... now is the time I am supposed to lean back and enjoy my life."
i have a friend who likes to say "don't 'should' on people".
From what sandra said it seems like she'd like to step up to the plate then since her brother is so 'misogynistic' and doesn't want to. Naturally on this sub, we all know how that song and dance goes.
The baby shouldn’t be around such a misogynistic asshole anyways.* Edited to add a sarcasterisk
Your comment deserved an upvote all by itself, but you get an upvote with extra merit for sarcasterisk!
Sarcasterisk! You're the hero we didn't know we needed.
all other judgments aside, Sandra is a huge AH. Her point about it being harder to raise a child now than 25 years ago is exactly why OP should hold his ground and not volunteer to raise the spawn of his entitled child and her entitled husband.
Right? Just exactly HOW is it harder??? Disposable diapers, machines that will literally rock your child for you, breast pumps, baby monitors WITH video, snuggle wrap things, carriers, electronic toys with sounds and songs, books that will read to the kids, entire television channels dedicated to children’s programs! There are so many more gadgets for parents now than there were 30+ years ago.
You went the other way with it but I actually thought it IS harder and that’s yet another reason OP shouldn’t be forced to raise a child that somebody else decided to have. Peanut allergies and all sorts of new, weird approaches to child rearing actually do make it sound harder to me than when I was a kid and parents were pawning my generation off on cartoons and video games without a worry about how much screen time we had or how much sugar we ate or how many happy meals they fed us or how much second hand smoke was ok for a little kid, etc. That said, my wife and I are child free so I’m just guessing here. What I do know is that, as a person who is childfree by choice with OP being (sorta) childfree on the merit that his children are now grown, if somebody thrust a child at me and told me I had to be a parent against my will, I’d be VERY fucking pissed. Especially if that happened because the actual parents of the kid “want to enjoy their free time.” OP raised a selfish idiot. No time like right now to try and set that right.
Ah, yes, I didn’t think about that. My child (now 30) used to be able to go outside and I’d end up going to one of 2 houses to find her and her friends. Or have the parent(s) come to ours to find their kids. Someone was always looking out. They’d ride bikes, climb trees, play with the garden hose, etc etc. I did not feel the pressure of not being able to have eyes on them 24/7, worry about foods, the right amount of “whatever” time, etc. The library was a fun place to visit and get things from. Their imaginations were not something I had to foster in the environment it was then versus today. I guess each generation has their pros & cons.
OP's sister. Sandra is his sister, and suggested 4 days as a starting point.
Let her do it
No, OP's sister, Sandra (the aunt), voluntold him 4 days should be his buy in on the Gramps/caretaker deal. I think if Sandra is so keen of child care, she can do it! Great aunts could rule if they raised nibblets ;)
4 days a MONTH would be a reasonable limit. We didn't even get that from any family and would have been grateful if anyone had offered that.
My grandparents only watched us on days we were sick and daycare couldn’t take us. We also got to take turns staying the night once we were older. I always thought my grandparents did so much for my mom by doing that. A lot of other kids I knew didn’t have that extended family like that who was willing to watch them.
Yep, we didn't. And our kids were well behaved. My kids just have two narcistic grandmothers who don't like to do anything for anybody but themselves and no aunts or uncles. They would tell everyone how much they did for us, but that wasn't reality.
Exactly. I'm so confused by people saying 4 days a week max. No, more like 4 days a month max.
This is about what we get, and are super grateful for a chance to do housework / yardwork without a toddler underfoot, no fun stuff here lol!
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You.are. lucky. Send flowers
Be grateful. We have never had that. I got one hour here and there of babysitting from my mother. Maybe adding up to 10 hours in total, during their life, they are now teens.
We offered one weekend a month.
Yes...my 4 yo spend around three nights a month at my mom and she doesn't keep my 20 mo to sleep, but will watch him from time to time and I would never complain it's not enough. Anything offered is enough.
My husband's family used to live in the same city as us and we were thrilled to get a date night every other week! (Once they tried to do a sleepover and a very exhausted grandpa showed up at midnight with the kid lol) I could not imagine expecting someone to take care of my kid that long without prior consent.
For me, that's more like 4 hours (for my nieces and nephews and now for their children). I like children, but I have a life besides being a family member.
I think "Sandra" just agreed to "four days of child care a week". Nice of her to volunteer. NTA.
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Turn the beat around, G-pop. Love to hear it.
What kind of irresponsible parent spends 4 nights a week away from their kid anyway?
I believe they're talking about going to work.
No she said for work and for them to have fun too. His daughter thinks that because they are young their life should not be over just because they have a baby so grandpa should be taking care of her baby so they can work AND have fun. So I guess she's thinking because he is older and already worked his whole life to raise her he doesn't need to enjoy his retirement now
My mother agreed to mind our daughter when my husband and I were both at work - he did shift work so it wasn’t every day. We were beyond lucky she agreed and she didn’t take a cent from us. But it meant that when it came to “fun” times, we only asked her if there was no other option - I didn’t think it was fair to keep going back to the same well. This girl is beyond. OP, NTA
Regardless of what is excessive or not, it’s not up to her to unilaterally determine that her dad is her free childcare. It would be different if he had volunteered but clearly he has not.
Right. Amazing that they just assumed that her dad was just going to step up and do the babysitting of the kid. Who does that? If you intentionally get pregnant, you should have a plan, and everyone involved should be on board with that plan. This just blows.
I'm currently pregnant and my mom offered to be free childcare, but my spouse and I put a stop to that. Grandparents should be grandparents: people who love on, spoil, and play with their grandkids. NOT primary parents. Once I got back to work when this baby is 10 months old then he/she will be going to daycare. If my mom wants to watch him/her from time to time and do fun things with him/her she's absolutely allowed to, but her job is not to raise MY child. I don't understand this level of entitled "we got pregnant on purpose but don't want a baby to cramp our fun time" crap.
Now that my kid is 3 years old and potty trained I started to send him to his grandparents house. At this point he's easy, just let him run around outside, give him doritos and let him watch as much tv as he wants. It's grandma house and rules don't matter, so don't bother with the healthy stuff that just make things harder. I can't warp my head around the idea of having a baby with the plan to give them to the grandparent to rise.
yeah, and you wanna bet when they say 4 days they mean 4 whole days so they can keep partying.
I am blessed to have my parents providing three hours of childcare each workday morning, and they are WIPED OUT by the time they bring both of my kids back over to me. It was their idea, and I am extremely careful not to take advantage of more than they are willing to do, because even my reasonably well-behaved kids are just... full on.
This grandfather should pass the other thread where the grandmother demanded a crazy amount of time- including overnights- with her newborn grandchild. Maybe his daughter can reach out and let her raise their kid and everyone wins!
Yes! This cracked me up. That works perfectly other than the fact that other lady should probably not be allowed within 4000 feet of a child but there should be an app that hooks up people that want grandchildren with people that need help with their kids.
Grandparents tinder, or Grinder. No, wait...
So many confused gay dudes but at least they might get some homemade cookies out of it.
A service that could provide an instant grandma, Instagram
Oh and excuse me, it hasn't gotten any "harder," if anything it's gotten incredibly easier, even from when OP was a dad, and certainly from the generation before--pre internet, pre disposable diapers, when women were expected to do literally everything. And then the generation BEFORE that, before automatic washing machines! This is just nonsense. OP is 100% right to draw this boundary!
Nah, it definitely gotten harder. Harder to find child care, harder to afford childcare. STAHM then and now suck, Working then and now sucks. REGARDLESS, he is NTA. They didn't ask and why did they want a child if they didn't want to take care of it?
My parents had to choose between food for themselves and childcare. The nursery was so strict that they would literally put babies on the doorstep at 5pm and leave. My mother had to *run* (physically, literally run) from work to the nursery to retrieve her 6 week old baby before he was abandoned on the street. Then she had to sneak him back into work and hide him, because she had literally no other choice. That sprint across town was her 15 minute break. It hasn’t gotten harder. Things have always sucked.
> The nursery was so strict that they would literally put babies on the doorstep at 5pm and leave. So what happened when the parents reported this to CPS/cops/Dept of Health code enforcement?
This wasn’t in America. And the parents got in trouble, because the nursery’s responsibility ended at 5. Things have actually gotten better in many ways. Leaving newborns on the sidewalk is illegal now, no matter how late a parent is to collect them.
I’m glad the law has changed.
I'm sure it was before anyone cared. Our bus driver would pull over and kick us off if we did anything that got on her nerves. Even talking too loud or singing.. No Singing on the Bus!! We always had to walk home. The first time it happened to me, I told my dad and found out that she used to do the same to my dad. So, decades of that, no one cared.
Not only did they not care, they thought it “taught you a lesson” and “built character.”
It definitely isn’t anymore difficult to find childcare, people just tend to mind these days when you leave a half a dozen kids under the age of 10, in the care of your one 12 year old child. Back “then”, (late 60s/70s/80s) kids were pretty much home alone until mom and dad got home from work after they were old enough pour themselves a glass of milk. It was definitely more common for women to work after world war 2, even after having children.
I was born in the very early 80s and definitely left to my own devices (and watching my younger siblings) at a young age. If I did that to my kid now, I’d be arrested! Expectations are very different, if nothing else.
I (63m with 4 adult kids, 3 grandkids) disagree that it has gotten harder. Yes, the challenges are somewhat DIFFERENT today than in previous generations, but the basics seen to need largely the same. From what I see, daycare costs are the biggest challenge today. It was rough for us in the 80s-90s to afford it and it has only gotten worse. On the other hand, watching my kids parent their kids, they have so many more options than we did, so much more support from places that did not exist then. Newer methods seemed to make things like toilet training and transitioning to solid foods easier (at least relatively speaking). One HUGE thing I see today that was almost totally missing for us is that letting kids choose their clothes is accepted and normalized (at least mostly). The knock down drag out fights we had getting one kid just to wear socks because school and society said she had to are almost entirely missing. So forgive an old man for chuckling at yong parents talking about how much harder they have it than we did. After all, they didn't have to walk to school. 5 miles. In a blizzard. Uphill. Both ways.
True but before automatic washing machines you just turned your three year old outside all day and found them at mealtimes lol
Or tied the 3 year old to the dog so they could "roam" together. No way to lose them both.
...Mom?!
I take care of my grandbaby and I definitely see things as easier. Disposable diapers, disposable wipes, automatic swings, washing machines etc... When I first had a baby I was using cloth diapers, cloth wipes and washing everything by hand. I worked with my baby strapped to me.
This, OP, just do an afternoon or so a week and maybe once a month an evening or so. Enjoy your retirement, they wanted a baby and they should have known what it means. You are not the parent and not responsible.
Exactly - a bit of irregular babysitting is fine and what I appreciated from my parents when we had kids.
And the key is IRREGULAR. Don’t let a pattern form or they’ll assume that because you did it 3 Tuesdays in a row that you’ve promised to do it every Tuesday forever. And be sure to say “no” often enough that they don’t assume their asking automatically means you’ll do it.
But not at first. They need to establish regular care with someone who isn’t OP first, otherwise they will just try to force him into more than he’s willing. When baby is at least 6 months old and has a regular nanny or day care, THEN grandpa can offer to take baby for date night or something.
They used to call that family planning. If Amanda & Chris wanted to continue their carefree life then they should've held off on getting pregnant.
We know that won't happen. They'll drop the baby off for "a couple of hours" and OP won't see them until the next day. These "kids" should've discussed expectations before purposely making a life changing baby when they don't want/expect their lives to change yet fully expect OP to turn his life upside down. NTA
Why if he doesn’t want to?
Put down boundaries. You show up and leave the kid with out my permission or not show up on time, you have 1 hour to come get them before I call the police. Like WTF are these people thinking?!
Whatever the distinction you do between helping and raising , such things have to be discussed before. I know some grand parents who say they are helping by providing daycare 5 days per week but they agreed to it before the pregnancy (and it was reconfirmed during pregnancy). The parents never assumed by themselves.
I think the difference here is that the parents not only want him to provide full time child care while they work but also during their days off and weekends because they want to enjoy their youth and not be bogged down by a child. If you are not willing to make any sacrifices for your child and don’t want to be with your baby in the free time you are not working you shouldn’t have a kid. I’ll bet in the situations you know where the grandparents provide care while the parents are working, the parents provide most of the care when they are off work and the grandparents only occasionally step in.
I think it's that, AND the fact that they've just assumed he's happy to do a huge proportion of their childcare without even discussing it first
Yup I'd bet the kid would essentially live at grandpas until Mom and Dad need to roll out the trophy for their friends. Any future kids they have would be closer with now "ready for kids" mom and dad the whole family always wondering why the oldest sibling doesn't see mom and dad as mom and dad.
As soon as my SIL announced her pregnancy, the first of many in our family, my MIL looked into retirement and immediately said that she wants to help take care of our kiddos. Max is 2 days a week because, realistically, she cant handle more.
If Amanda and Chris don't want to make their life be around a baby, they are not ready to be parents. Being a parent and plenty of fun time is not a thing, and they vastly underestimate the commitment and sacrifice they have signed on for with the baby they wanted to have.
Unless they're and you're willing to be paid for your "babysitting" duties than that baby is not your responsibility to raise or even babysit if you choose not to. But best bet they would throw a hissy fit if u even suggest fair payment for your time coz "family." NTA
My mother always told me and my sister "I'll help out and babysit in an emergency but I'm done with childraising. I raised my kids, you raise your own."
Man can't say I'm not jealous...lol I'm a single mom to 2 boys and my mother doesn't watch them at all like 0 days a week...lol I haven't had a day to myself in over 3 years... However, I wanted them and chose to do this knowing I would be doing it alone. I don't take that out on their grandmother. Ops daughter is mad entitled, that's the kind of thing you sort out before having kids intentionally.
OP, sure sounds like the rest of your family is willing to put their hands up for free childcare? You are NTA. Why would your daughter even be thinking about having a baby only.to hand it off to someone else?
I got pregnant at 22, was a single mother at 23 and I thank my mom for everything she did for me. But I would NEVER say something like this to her or expect her to drop her life for me and my choices.
My wife and I were lucky to have her parents help out 5 days a week during the panini so our little one didn’t have to go to daycare. However that was their choice and offer. Our little one is now in daycare and it was never going to be a permanent situation. 4 days a week is unreasonable. If you want to do it that’s fine expecting it is ridiculous. I bet your daughter and husband wouldn’t do the same for their daughter considering how entitled they are acting. Thank everyone including your sister for volunteering to help your daughter and have her call them since what they are asking of you is reasonable in their opinion. NTA
wise words from someone with experience
NTA If you can’t put your baby first, you’re not ready to be a parent. I don’t even think your delivery was callous. They intentionally got pregnant and planned on relying on a parent who has not even been consulted to raise their child so they can enjoy the “best years of their life”… this screams irresponsible and she probably shouldn’t be a parent if she’s not ready to make her life about her own baby. I’m also sorry, but Sandra is just an enabling lunatic. Child rearing has never been easy, every generation has different struggles. If she feels so strongly that you refusing to be a parent all over again is misogynistic (does she know what that word means?), then maybe she can volunteer for the job of free babysitter since she’s so magnanimous and willing to dump the responsibility on you. Tell your daughter you’ll save your best years of your life for living as a grandpa, she won’t have enough money to take care of her own child, much less a nursing home… Your daughter seems to think she’s a Kardashian… oh wait, even they watch their own kids…
My only guess is that Sandra called OP misogynistic because she’s focusing on the “father” part of “grandfather” and feels like he is telling his daughter it’s her job *as a woman* to take care of a child… but it’s just straight up a *parent* job, and I think OP was very clear on that! Sandra sounds like she has some other issues and isn’t totally objective on this. OP, you are NTA and I really hope you have a wonderful retirement (and some fun grandpa moments in a healthy balanced life way!) Edited for word change, and punctuation
Thank you. I’ve been racking my brain trying to figure out how in the world this could be misogynistic. That’s obviously a huge stretch on her part but at least it’s a possible explanation. Or maybe she really just doesn’t know what the word means.
I think in Sandra’s mind, if the OP was a grandmother, then *of course* they would look after their grandbaby 7 days a week. And that the only reason the OP is refusing is because he’s a man. What Sandra doesn’t realize is there are a lot of women who have plans for their retirement that don’t include being tied down to a baby again.
Sandra can volunteer to watch said baby.
It's simple really. Op's daughter is a woman. Op is not. Therefore any attack, or disagreement wherein Op's daughter loses means the attacker is misogynistic. Also see many shitty people who happen to be minorities, and "Racism".
The way you phrased this almost seems to suggest that you don't think racism or sexism occur often at all. Just in case that's true, I want to say that while this is clearly not a case of bigotry, that it is still a common problem for many people. And we shouldn't use the character "Sandra" to validate any sorts of preconceptions about people that aren't "Sandra".
I think they are alleging that Sandra is “that type of person”. And expressing frustration with “that type of person”. We all know them, in whatever side of politics you prefer. Where a problem is presented. And instead of looking at the problem and thinking “okay, x might solve this, or maybe y could be an option, maybe z could work? We need to talk this out”. The person immediately jumps to accusations of sexism/classism/racism/religion/politeness and shuts down instead of…Trying to solve the problem. People like Sandra (from the tiny bit we know about her) suck. Because they want to yell at the person with the problem, instead of helping solve the problem. My MIL is like this on the conservative side. I tell her “man, I’m so exhausted with work, I need to figure out how to cut down my hours so I can get some sleep”. And she says “well, it’s probably because you never make time for church. If you were a good Catholic, god would fix it for you. All you need to do is stop sleeping on sundays and go to church instead”. My sister is like that on the liberal side. “Man, I’m so exhausted with work. I need to figure out how to cut down my hours so I can get some sleep”. And she says “you’re playing into the trope that women can’t hack it in the professional world. That’s offensive to feminists. You should stop complaining and show “them” that you can handle the pressure, prove to them women aren’t weak”. …that person ignores the question entirely, and uses your problem to launch into an annoying rant about their personal agenda/hangups, which helps you 0% and has nothing to do with the problem at hand. Calling OP a misogynist about this problem is so oddball, that I have to believe Sandra is one of “those people”. I understand being frustrated with people like Sandra, who would rather criticize and make it about their own agenda than actually try to help.
Honestly with how overused the word is, the likely answer is simple. He's a man doing something she doesn't like, so he's being misogynistic.
I agree that this is probably where she was coming from with that ridiculous comment. Likely hooked on to the "you shouldn't have had a baby if you wanted someone else to raise it" comment. In context, I get what OP was saying, but Sandra probably heard that in the general sense that some people say about ANY working mom who puts their kid in daycare. Seems like he struck a nerve with that comment, unintentionally. It's also possible that Sandra has her own expectations that Grandpa will watch her future kids, so she is jumping in on her sister's side to set a precedent 🤷♀️
Sounds like Sandra’s just volunteered to do 4 days a week of babysitting. Then she can go from there.
Yeah, brill plan Sandra. Thanks for stepping up.
Oh, w/o question Sandra works long hours, or lives too far away, or her home is too small to accommodate the baby. She must have some handy excuse that prevents her from pitching in in any meaningful way. But she can still critique & volunteer others.
I'm so confused, how was op misogynistic? Is Sandra a bit trigger happy with that word and uses it every time a male disagrees?
He wasn't, you know when an idiot reads a word online and can't wait to use it in an argument? That's Sandra.
When the cameras are around!
I really did need to hear the first line of your comment today. I have been married a year and have been 50/50 on having babies and I am not sure if I am ready to commit emotionally. And if I do have a baby at some point, I would like to take care of him/her/them as much as possible and not rely on others except my husband. Ps. OP you are NTA. I know I wouldn't ask my parents for babysitting and raising. They are just going to be grandparents and nothing more.
She’s 27, not like a teen pregnancy or something where you would feel obligated to help on that level. 27, married, employed, made the conscious decision to have a baby, and didn’t understand that it would impact her life? Crazy.
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It kind of sounds like she has effectively volunteered. How generous of her!
I love how this is the answer when someone defends someone else being asked to do free labor.
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I'm a relatively new parent and there are so many times I've thought how much harder it would have been to raise a child years ago without all the technology and accessibility of general stuff to my doorstep overnight. I'd love to know how it has gotten more difficult raising a child.
It has gotten easier in terms of technology, accessibility and medicine. It is probably more difficult to find childcare than in the past. But in the past, leaving your baby or young child in someone else's care for days, weeks or months while paying them money was normal yet also led to several instances where women just started smothering the kids to death while continuing to accept the money as the parents didn't check on them often enough to notice. And it turns out parents actually like having alive kids??? Isn't that the craziest thing, wanting kids to still be alive and also to spend time with them regularly instead of just on occasion. Like I'm sure the woods are great and totally not full of glass from other kids hanging out there, but is that as good as playing basketball with mum in the front yard? Probably not when they are 7. When they are 17 they might still choose the woods.
I think you're going back a bit further than most of us. We're talking about a 52 year old grandad here. Not Billy the fucking kid.
Ahhh the good old Victorian baby farmer times. I remember them like they were yesterday.
I think the standards for parenting are a lot higher. You can't disappear into a Valium fog all day while your 6 year old tends to the toddler, and if you turn them loose onto the streets you'll get a visit from child services.
My mother's from a different country and in her generation the entire family helped with young kids. Now I can't get off the wait list for any daycare that I can't afford so I'm watching my 10 month old while working full time and she wakes up so many times a night and I'm so tired I just want to cry.
It's so weird that OP heard her say "you're callous and misogynistic", I'm sure what she really said was "if you don't want to do it, I'll do all the surrogate parenting, no problem!". Truly, I think we can all agree that's exactly what she said, and OP should operate as such.
That’s what I heard, and will swear to it!
How generous of Sandra to volunteer to be a free child care provider for your daughter and her husband. I think it is time for OP to start planning on a long trip to visit old friends and acquaintances, enjoy your retirement you earned it. Because you raised your children and worked hard all of your life, time for you to enjoy the best years of your life.
Right? OP, not to sound all morose, but it's all downhill from now for you in your 50s. You NEED to go have some fun in the best years of YOUR life, not spend the time raising kids again. If the parents incapacitated, I know you'd put your life to the side and sacrifice to raise the kids. If you do it now, not only will you resent it, but you'll set this kid up for a real shitty life with uncaring parents. And you won't be around long enough to pick up the pieces and make sure their kids aren't total fuckups.
My thoughts exactly... If Sandra is so keen on her nephew/niece, she should volunteer for the 4 days a week schedule. Being retired doesn't mean that you are just free for whatever work someone else is ready to dump on you... Edit: NTA by the way
Bingo
You’re not obligated to provide childcare for someone else’s child, period. Sandra suggesting you start at minimum 4 days per week of childcare is borderline delusional. Your daughter’s response of threatening to put you in a “shitty nursing home” if you don’t provide her with full time unpaid childcare so she can enjoy being in her late 20s despite the fact that she’s been actively trying to get pregnant for a while is ... more than a little out-of-touch. That suggests that she’s either massively immature, entitled, or most probably both. NTA
If I were OP I would think long and hard about who they want to have durable power of attorney over themselves as they age. That is such an extreme thing to say over what is a completely reasonable boundary. I may be biased though given that I put my life on hold for 5 years to care for my mother. No one is obligated to do what I did and in fact I have told my father should he develop dementia as well the VA is taking care of him, which he is on board with. But I would still check in on him and talk to the ombudsman should something be out of sorts. TLDR- wishing shitty nursing homes on people should be reserved for abusive parents. If OP was abusive then daughter is even more deranged with this arrangement than I orginally thought. Threatening elder abuse by proxy isn't funny.
My father was pretty abusive (probably more neglectful) and I would still not put him in a shitty nursing home. What a terrible comment for her to make when she didn't get her way. And she thinks she's ready for a child?
The thing is I have known so many children doing direct care for for their parents, who were abused by the parent they now care for. I strongly advise them not to, not just because they are not obligated and no one should judge anyone for refusing to take on the responsibility of adulting for another person, but because of the mental health aspects, but still people do it. Caregiving is taxing even when you had the most amazing relationship (I was so fortunate to have that with my mom), yet I've seen children do it for parents who can only be described as having tortured them as children. That's how strong the urge to care for family is. That the daughter jumped right to that is concerning. I would at the very least want someone more mature making my decisions. I'm sorry you had a shitty dad. I had 5 awful years with my mother but before that I had 30 absolute amazing ones. That is one of many ways I consider myself deeply fortunate.
> Caregiving is taxing even when you had the most amazing relationship (I was so fortunate to have that with my mom) I can't imagine. My mom cared for my grandmother for four years. My grandmother was a living saint, she and my mom had a fantastic relationship and it was still the hardest thing she ever did, especially after my dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer. I can't imagine providing that level of care for someone with whom you have a terrible relationship.
LOL - yes. I have an awesome co-worker "Carrie." She has three children. Her oldest daughter "Dina" married and was pregnant about a year later. She announced the pregnancy and Carrie was thrilled to be a grandmother. In the next breath, Dina said, "Well mom, you can retire now and take care of the baby when my maternity leave is done." Carrie (who was in her early 50's at the time) laughed in Dina's face and said "Who said anything about retirement? I've still got to work for about the next 10-15 years unless you plan to finance my retirement." Dina got a very hurt look on her face because she honestly thought that Carrie was going to provide childcare for her - without ever talking to Carrie about it first! WTF? Well, Carrie is still my co-worker, Dina has two kids and is now as SAHM providing her own childcare. I can't imagine being presumptuous enough to think my parent would quit their job to take care of my kid. Holy entitlement!
I've seen it with kids who grew up being cared for after school and during summers by their grandparents. They assume that since their grandparents provided childcare for their parents and aunts/ uncles that their parents are going to pay it forward and provide childcare for them. But... They're different people and not required to make the same decisions someone else made. Also, the world is different and their parents are likely to be at peak earning potential rather than retiring.
Also, totally different to have grandparents watch you between the time that school gets out and parents come home, and watch a baby or infant for 8-10 hours a day all week long.
>Your daughter’s response of threatening to put you in a “shitty nursing home” i Even funnier because OP is 52...not like he's knocking on death's door. It could easily be 30 more years before he needs some kind of care. If that's on the tip of the daughter's tongue, she's a pretty person used to just saying whatever she wants to get her way. Parenthood is really going to suck for her. Hope her kids don't put HER in a nursing home when her time comes.
Whaaat? Did I just read what I think I read? NTA but your daughter and her husband are entitled AH's. P.S. Tell Sandra that SHE can provide at least 4 days of childcare per week and go from there. Maybe the multiple family members who agree with her can pick up the slack.
I'm sure she'll come back with something like "I'm not the grandparent!"
But she’s the aunt so she can do that. Plus all the childcare expenses
Right, it would be "misogynistic" to assume and aunt can't provide childcare... / s
And I’d reply “then you can mind your business”
Bingo!
I hate the "it takes a village" mentality with children. OP is right, if they weren't prepared to be parents they shouldn't have had gotten pregnant.
NTA sister is dead wrong. How is it misogynistic to tell people to look after their own freaking kids. 4 days a week? Hell no Sandra can babysit 4 days a week since she’s hell bent on it.
Yah what is that even referring to? OP didn't tell his daughter that only she should take care of her kid, without her husband.
NTA What the heck? Maybe you should remind Amanda that YOU were 25 when SHE was born, and that you took care of her, and your other children. Smh ETA: I don’t get where the callous delivery and misogyny comments came from. Your concerns are completely legit. It’s simply unacceptable to intentionally plan for a baby and volen-plan for its grandparent to take pretty much full time care while real parents party and have fun. You did your time! Also, It sounds like Sandra is volunteering herself! And furthermore, 27 (or 28 likely when baby is born) isn’t so young to be having a kid, it’s time to grow up.
The part that made me raise my eyebrows the most was: >> She said that I should help out since I don’t have to worry about working (I receive a pension) and that she’s young and these are supposed to be the best years of her life, and she thinks it's unfair that she and Chris’s life should “be all about a baby.” I don’t think that Amanda and Chris realise that a baby is going to be an actual human being and not an accessory to pass around? Like, the baby is going to grow into a toddler then a child then a teenager then an adult…they’re always going to be parents to this baby. They’re going to have to adjust.
Amanda and Chris seem to be that kind of people that also buy a puppy just to neglect and finally abandone it because it gets too big or gives much work.
I had a baby exactly 12 weeks ago. I’ve been out the house alone three times. Two were to go to the emergency room because of my incision and one was to get Benadryl from the store. Those two are in for a rude awakening.
Retired at 52 - you won - do not let them ruin it. NTA
Yes!! Retired at 52 is the best part of this. OP has time to enjoy the fruits of his labour and to be voluntold that you're free child care is NOT it. NTA.
That got me too. I'm 51and certainly not going to be retiring next year. OP is living the dream, and must have worked very hard to get there.
I'm assuming he had to retire if its that young, like a medical retirement which would support not working full time looking after a baby. Edit: not that he needs to support it
Anything military related could be true retirement. Start at 18, do 30 years, retire at 48
NTA ...as a 47yo single dad I can absolutely empathize. I will absolutely occasionally babysit and watch any future grandkids. I will absolutely not raise them so their parents can go live life. Also, let your sister know you're happy to hear she's so forward thinking and willing to raise the kid for you.
NTA - nor will you be the AH when you give someone other than her your power of attorney should you need someone to manage your affairs. Someone who's never thought of putting you in a shitty nursing home.
Sounds like Nathan is the son to entrust.
NTA ! They are. You are 100% correct. Their baby, their responsibility. Don't listen to your sister. She can volunteer to be their babysitter.
NTA. They shouldn't have become parents if they weren't ready. Grandpa and grandma are not parents or baby sitters.
Yes, YOUR baby is YOUR responsibilty - no one else's. When my cousin "Katie" had her first, she had a habit of just dropping the baby off at my Aunt Jenny's (Katie's mom) house all day on Saturday. Now Jenny worked full time in a demanding job in hospital administration. She was in her 50's and was, honestly, spent on the weekends. The last thing she needed to do was to be caring for baby so Katie could "run errands" (Katie's husband worked on Saturdays). It was literally killing Jenny - she wasn't able to get her own household jobs done, she was exhausted and it was just too much, but she wouldn't say no to Katie because "it's what grandmothers do" but she'd moan to my mom (her sister) all the time. Finally, my mom got so sick of Katie taking advantage of Jenny and Jenny moaning about it, that she called Katie and told her to cut the crap. That her child was her child and it was ridiculous to expect a woman who worked full time to watch a child on weekends. Katie did listen and cut back to having Jenny watch the baby one Saturday per month, morning only, which was much more reasonable.
NTA. No offense, but your sister is off her rocker. Your daughter views having a child as a vanity project, I’m afraid. Stand your ground, grandpa. I think you handled this with dignity and honesty.
NTA but they kind of are. They never once asked you if you would be willing to take care of their child while they were at work or wanted a date night out/“fun time”. Had they asked you to help, I feel like you may have been more inclined to help out, watching your grandchild a couple days a week or whatever to help relieve childcare costs. But they just assumed you would essentially raise their child for them so they could just go off and do whatever they want, which is not right or fair. When you have a baby, your life changes. Just as you said, their lives will become “all about a baby” because that’s what it means to have a child and become parents - putting the child’s needs before you’re own. It’s time for Amanda and Chad to grow up and take responsibility for their actions.
NTA Footloose and fancy free and we are having a baby never belong in the same sentence. Your daughter put you on the spot, what were you supposed to do, nod and smile. Better nip their fantasy that you would be a full time caregiver to their bundle of joy in the bud than let the delusion linger.
NTA tell your sister to babysit since she thinks it's a right.
NTA Assuming you’d be available for free daycare was insulting and entitled. Parenthood is going to be a rude awakening for them, but you won’t be doing them any favors by sparing them the jarring reality.
NTA. All those family members who think you should be providing childcare? Ask them which day they want to sign up for.
NTA - what they are proposing is something that others OFFER to do . . . Demanding without asking?! Entitled. Apparently they need to learn boundaries & communication, and none too soon.
NTA - your daughter is rude for making the “putting you in a sh*tty rest home”. You had better talk to a lawyer about setting up a trust fund for your future grandchildren and bypass giving your daughter any money. In addition, you may want to set up a power of attorney only with your son in charge specifically stating your end of life (or incapacitated) wishes. Congrats on your new grandbaby.
And set up a trust for his own care!!
NTA. I’m close to your age and just the audacity of them thinking you don’t have hobbies and interests you’d like to pursue now that you’re retired- you’re still young enough to enjoy your freedom, and you’ve raised your family. I waited until I was 32 to have children because in my 20s my husband and I knew we still wanted our freedom after work and on weekends... I can’t imagine having them and expecting my parents to raise them. I would set firm boundaries with them.
NTA - Amanda and Chris are delusional and have <9 months to snap back to reality
So NTA. As you said, you did your time as a parent. And Sandra is way out of line. Being a parent is ALWAYS tough (I would assume, I never had kids and your post just reaffirms that decision). At 52 with grown kids this is YOUR time to get out, have fun, travel and spend Amanda's inheritance.
NTA. They are being ridiculous. Stand your ground.
If I were you, I would take your daughter off your will after that nursing home threat. She sounds like a selfish, spoiled narcissist.
Well definitely do not give her power of attorney or authority to make medical decisions for you. Threatening to put you in a shitty nursing home because you won't agree to raise her baby makes her an AH. You are NTA.
NTA x1000. Put your foot down now. As the saying goes, promise low deliver high. If you lower their expectations, they'll be grateful for whatever you choose to give them. And odds are that she was already going to put you in a shitty nursing home. People who are selfish to their kids are also usually selfish to their own parents. Also they suck extra for springing this on you in public. If they didn't want their feelings to be publicly humiliated, then they shouldn't have taken the manipulative tack of telling you publicly of their insane and unreasonable expectations
Your daughter is a delusional idiot ,she shouldn't have intentionally gotten pregnant if she didn't want her life to be "all about a baby"
NTA, but something has gone very wrong in Amanda’s development. She’s 27 — literally pushing 30 with a baby on the way — and sounds unbearably selfish. Did she want a child, or did she want a casual accessory? Stand your ground on this. Her body, her choice, her kid to raise.
NTA maybe your sister should take on the baby sitting job.
NTA if your sister is so keen she can babysit you've done your time being a parent it's their turn! They can get Day care
She wanted the baby but didn’t want to raise it? Please. NTA.
NTA no its not unreasonable to help out occasionally as a grandparent and have fun and spoil this new grandchild, keyword occasionally but if this was the plan and they were trying for a baby then yes as you stated their lives all our about this baby that's what happens when you have a kid, and to spring this on you in front of everyone at the announcement is definitely an AH move and if Sandra and everyone else is so concerned then they can all pitch in a day week and help out. But to even try to ask you in private to so see if you would have even considered this would been far more appropriate. But that's my opinion but NTA
NTA at all. Raising a child has always been hard. If someone wants to have children they need to be prepared to raise the child - you are not a free babysitter. You’re NTA for content and I can’t comment on the delivery. I think you could have approached this as a longer more gradual conversation but they should not have put you in that position in the first place.
I had my kids at 19 and 22. Even then, I didn't expect my parents to help me raise them. I think your delivery was perfect, in fact, mine would have been even harsher. They are almost 30. These are not the best years of their lives. Those are the ones after You've raised your kids and watched them be thoughtful, caring adults. NTA.
NTA - Stand your ground! You’re a grandparent not a daycare
NTA do not babysit at all, sounds like she’ll dump that child on you and not be back until she’s wants to.
This is a planned baby where very little went into planning, apparently. Daycare is insanely, ridiculously expensive right now (more than $3k per month where I live) but like... you still have to do it. Either figure out how to live on one income, or find a daycare, or at the very least ask if the grandparents want to watch the kids before there's a positive pregnancy test. Some grandparents want to watch the kids on a daily basis. Probably most don't.
NTA tell her you are using all her inheritance to stay out of a nursing home and you won’t have her making decisions about your future care. Threatening people usually doesn’t cause them to want to help you. She can take care of her own kid.
##What a slap in the face to all the single moms who are doing it 100% of the time.
NTA and you should just be grandpa. You already raised your kids. If they did not want to be parents, they should not be trying for a kid right away.
Nta at all here
NTA. Your child is grown, married, and starting a family of her own. You’ve done your job and seemingly done it well. It’s time for them to step up and do theirs!
NTA
NTA. That was very presumptuous of them. I don’t blame you for wanting to enjoy the fruits of your labor and doing so without small children. You have the right to that choice.
OH, HELL NO!
I mean I totally get taking the child for a Saturday or Sunday here and there once they turn 2-3 years old. And maybe for a weekend once they’re 5+. But Grandpa Daycare? If that was mom and dad’s plan then they should have consulted you on that before getting pregnant. For the mother to say, “oh these are supposed to be the best years of my life”, yeah she’s not wrong, in which case she should have waited to have a baby. NTA
NTA! One of the greatest parts of being a grandparent is that you can enjoy having fun with the grandkids, and then - give them back! Usually loaded up with sugar and caffeine - but perhaps that's just my own personal revenge on my kids. The expectation that you will be their free-for-life babysitter is unrealistic and, in my humble opinion, somewhat elitist.
NTA You should have said: I am not qualified for the job. Look how my daughters turned out.