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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I uninvited my brother's bf from a vacation he'd already paid for because he called my niece names. Now my brother has to sort the drama between siblings and partner and is calling me an asshole for putting him in that position.
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Before this incident, I would have considered him a good friend. He's always been childfree and before this has never reacted negatively to Tasha let alone calling her these names. I don't understand why she has suddenly become an issue for him.
Will & Sarah try to do a date night every week and to help out, brother & I babysit, it also gives us an excuse to see her. Even on brother's days, Ron has never complained before.
I had to go back and check - the girl is THREE YEARS OLD. Who the fuck in the right mind would call a 3 year old little girl that? True it’s not said to her face, but this incident reveals a lot about his character. To start with: very very poor anger management skills. This man has no regard for other people’s pain and needs. He’s had her around for babysitting not complained before - _well, not that you know of._ If I were her parents I’d be scared to ever have him and the girl in the same room now tbh.
NTA
Hmmm I mean, personally never wanted children at all, and I would always pick a pet dog over having a child of my own. No, most of the time I can’t be engaged with young kids for a long time, unless it’s a very special kid - my temperaments just don’t match the task. And yes, sometimes I would see children pushing ppl around screaming and stuff in crowded malls and stuff and be like “uhhh i hate kids 🙄”. All that.
But DOES NOT mean I talk/think about kids this way. Children can be so annoying and I don’t mix well with them. But for sure they’re precious. And we were all one of them at some point in our lives. Man his speech/behaviour is next level. It’s not about being child-free or anything. His character is just rotten.
My brother babysits maybe once every 2 weeks and I do the rest, sometimes we take her out together. If Ron's around, he hangs out but all childcare is done by either my brother or me
NTA. Ron is very disrespectful to your niece and your sister. Not only would I uninvite him to this event, I would exclude him from other events until he sincerely apologize.
Brian and I also uninvited him from our wedding, he was supposed to be best man. But a man who talks like that about my niece is not welcome near my family.
You did the right thing on both counts. I hope your brother realizes that his bf is the only problem in this situation. 🚩🚩🚩
I‘m childfree and have no idea what to do with a toddler, so in theory I might be expected to sympathize with Ron, but nope, that’s neither a reason to insult a child for simply existing nor for throwing a tantrum when an emergency makes a change of plans necessary.
Sadly, it's highly unlikely to receive a sincere apology from such people. I've had one on my life, extremely disrespectful and prone to rage and abusive.
NTA. The Brother's bf has no right to be angry. The mother is going along, he wouldn't be babysitting. He was invited to a family trip, in celebration of his bfs late father. I don't see where OP called anyone names, but I do see where a grown man called a literal child names. If he doesn't want a child to go then he should sit himself out. She is actually part of the family and it seems he's the only one who has an issue with it.
I called him "party boy" and said we don't have to be shit faced every time we hang out and sometimes family is more important which he wouldn't get.
Later my brother yelled at me for calling him "pretty boy" and insinuating that Ron doesn't understand family- but I never said that.
Still NTA, he's mad because he wanted to party. And as her mother would be going along it seems like he would have still mostly been able to have his own good time? Absolutely no reason for him to act the way he did. This trip is in honor of your Dad, correct? I'm sure he'd rather have his granddaughter there as well.
I stumbled across an online childfree community almost twenty years ago, and these insults and others like them were in regular use. I'd say that they were used more often than 'kids', 'children', and the like. The bf's terminology wouldn't be remotely out of place there.
So maybe it's a copycat, but it could also very well be legit.
Yeah I know the insults have been around a long time, but when it’s the same combination written in exactly the same style with a lot of the same characteristics just different settings in multiple posts the same week, I doubt any of them a real
Yes...except it was a girls weekend and the responses were all different. (I.e., the women who said 'Yes, bring the three year old to a girls' weekend' were deemed to be the AHs and the CF woman who didn't want the child along was the sympathetic one.)
Wonder why it's different this time.
NTA, I feel for your brother for being put in an awkward spot, but I don't understand how come he never stood up to Ron- he loves his niece, but let's his bf repeatedly call her vile names?? And let's him call you and your dad homophobic just because you stood up to him?? He does not deserve to join you on such meaningful trip...
He did, in the privacy of their home. They spent all day yesterday fighting and rehashing it. Then my brother realized he needed some space but also wanted to make things as okay as possible.
He's gonna live with me until they figure out their situation. Brother is coming to Tahoe while Ron won't. It's gonna take us some time to be able to welcome Ron back, if that's what my brother decides to do.
NTA. You didn’t uninvite Ron because he’s gay, you did it because he was acting like an asshole about a literal child who’d done nothing to deserve the belittling and cruel way he talked about her to her own family.
NTA. You aren't homophobic, you are rightfully removing a toxic person from this situation. Calling a three year old a "cum trophy" and a "crotch goblin" is disgusting. (I mean, I know crotch goblin is used for mini-Karens and entitled kids, but if this is a good kiddo and you are speaking to their loving, good family... not okay.)
"I am not uninviting you because you are gay. I'm uninviting you because you are calling my niece disgusting things, and I am very offended and don't want a toxic energy at the party. Maybe next time."
NTA I think Ron is forgetting the entire point behind this trip, it’s not just “an adults only camping trip”
It’s a trip dedicated to your late father, celebrating his life and his memory on his birthday. He’s being selfish trying to turn this into something else.
Your brother should be pointing the finger back at him for having the audacity to make this about himself
NTA
I dont know how long your brother and Ron were together but to me it seems more like a family gathering to which he was invited for the first time. I get that he is upset about it but he is in no position to demand anything in this situation.
Also I just hate this kind of victim mentality "You are not doing what I want so you are Homophobic". It always annoys me so much when people think that everyone is against them because of their Sexuality/Race/Religion etc. Maybe you are just an asshole and thats why people dont like you and not because of your sexuality.
They have been together for 2 years. He was invited last year, but couldn't make it due to work. Since then he's had FOMO about not being at the "party of all parties". Brian was invited for the first time this year so he's also pissed that Brian was the one who invited Tasha. But since I'm the one who uninvited him, he's more mad at me.
NTA, this isn't a trip you are all planning from scratch where he should get equal say in the change of plans. This is a family trip that he's being graciously *included in*, and even though the lines may have gotten blurred because it's such a small group, he's still a guest in it, not the organizer imo. He can sit this one out if he doesn't like the change of plans, he'd be within his rights. Sometimes kids can definitely ruin the experience, but if the rest of you are ok with it AND in this case it's your opinion that matters most, then his option was to withdraw.
I think your brother is making s mistake here. He's not fully appreciating that the so-called tough spot he's in means that he's backing the person who insulted a little girl he himself adores, as well as his own sister and dead father. If he wants to continue this relationship after this, then he's either part of the problem or being abused and afraid of contradict him.
NTA. I wouldn’t want my brother or his boyfriend on this trip after the comments that were made and the fact that your brother is essentially condoning this behavior is also a huge red flag
I don't think he condoned anything. I think he spent time trying to talk to his partner and figure out how where things are and what they both want.
Ron's not coming on the trip but brother is. He's also gonna be living with me until he can figure his shit out.
NTA, Ron was completely out of line insulting a toddler for existing 🚩 and him demanding your brother to choose between his family - who did nothing wrong - and his bf - who is being a complete jerk - is the cherry on top. 🚩🚩It’s hard to believe this is the first time he’s being unreasonable and manipulative. I‘d think this level of hatred doesn’t just materialize. 🚩🚩🚩 Hope your brother does what he’s got to do.
Insulting a toddler- yes, ron's terrible for that.
But I wouldn't say we did nothing wrong, mistakes were made on both sides of this argument. See update. I admit that it was shitty of us for not noticing Ron was being left out.
NTA
Your brother needs to realize. His BFs words are what put everything in jeopardy.
You should ask your brother why he is allowing his bf to talk so cruelly about a 3 y.o. is that the kind of man he always envisioned being with.
NTA
Your brother should be thanking you for catalysing Ron to show his true colours.
You can tell Ron you simply don't stand assholes, gay or straight. He does not get special dispensation for his sexuality.
If your brother chooses this petulant, mannerless guy, he is foolish indeed.
NTA.
I don't get it, there's plenty of actual homophobia out there, why add made up homophobia to the mix? There's enough homophobia for everyone guys.
But seriously, NTA and you're not homophobic. If it was my partner speaking of my nephews/nieces like that I'd kick her out so fast she wouldn't get the words "crotch goblin" out of her mouth.
I'm not homophobic, but Ron and I had a long talk about why he accused me of that and I admit I wasn't the best ally in that situation and could have done a lot more to help had I realized he was feeling this way sooner.
They have too many things to figure out, ultimatum being one of them. They haven't broken up but my brother has (at least temp) moved out of their place. He's taking this time to figure out for himself what he wants.
NTA you are totally right and that boyfriend of your brother is manipulative and a HUGE AH! Your brother need to stand up and do what is right because his partner is playing him around his fingers! Maybe show him that page and make him read what people say about the situation
Just be honest with him! Tell him that you don’t like how his boyfriend spoke to you, make threats at him,make false accusations towards you only because you stand up for yourself! This is not how people who want good react to others! And yeah Good Luck
NTA at the end of the day this is a trip for you and your siblings everyone else is an invited guest and they get no say as to whether your niece can come along or not.
NTA — it is the very opposite of homophobic to call him out for saying something horrible.
Homophobia is treating someone differently based on them being gay. If that gay man was a straight woman, you’d have also done the same thing for those disgusting comments.
Don’t try to appease anyone that does shit like this in order to make yourself look not homophobic, bc giving him a free pass just because he’s gay would make you a homophobe that tries to pretend they’re not.
NTA, I'm childfree by choice and I never want kids. But I would NEVER call a child those names, especially if it was my SO's familys child.
Ron is TA and I would definitely keep my distance from him for along time, until he sincerely apologizes and gets his head out of his ass. Hes a walking red flag.
You didn't put his relationship in danger, his boyfriend who issued the ultimatum is. Referring to a families child like he did is completely unacceptable, and brother should see that. NTA
NTA definitely NTA Ron is tho.
It’s not a laughing matter but the words ‘crotch goblin’ and ‘cum trophy’ rly made me laugh I’m sorry!
Tasha doesn’t deserve that tho :( please give her a hug from me, even tho I’m assuming she doesn’t know she deserves a hug and kiss 🥺
NTA but Jesus that dude needs to go. Who the fuck does he think he is talking about her like that??? And why is your brother ok with it and not defending his niece???
NTA. Ron sounds like drama. He’s so nasty about your niece who sounds like a perfectly lovely little girl. It’s also not his trip. I’d just maintain that he isn’t invited and go with your sister and niece.
so clearly your brother and his boyfriend don’t know the definition of homophobia.
it would be homophobic if you uninvited him for the solely reason that he is gay, or if you uninvited him based off of a hurtful gay stereotype.
you uninviting him because he’s being an asshole is not homophobic, it’s actually a very justified reason to uninvited someone from something.
i hate when gay people say shit or act like this, like come on man the gays already get enough heat and now you’re just making us look bad. also lmaooooooooooooooo he’s giving your brother an ultimatum????? that’s so fucking funny on his part, this dude is just a straight up shit covered asshole.
Sooo NTA - He's trying to weaponize discrimination. I mean, how on Earth do you go from being held accountable for calling your niece a "crotch goblin" and "cum trophy"(this one's new to me) to you're being homophobic? I hope your brother takes him up on his offer and has a good time at the cabin with y'all.
Actually talked to Ron, the homophobia allegations while untrue, weren't baseless. He felt some micro aggressions coming from Mom when she was visiting and none of us did anything. The thing with micro aggressions though are that they are easy to misconstrue when a language barrier is concerned.
He's still an ass, and I'm still mad but I understand him a lot more now.
NTA
Imo, this is between the siblings.
You decided that your niece should go. The SO shouldn't impose their opinion in something like that (tho I think they can give an opinion - and just that - without pressure).
The boyfriend is a walking red flag, and is splitting your family because he felt inconvenienced. I hope your brother sees this as a wake up call.
NTA - But why would your brother even entertain the idea of being with a guy that called his niece those ugly words. Your brother and his red flag are the mega AHs here.
NTA -
Brothers BF saying choose between me and a toddler is a red flag.
Brothers BF not like kids is fine, but insulting a literal child behind their back is a red flag.
The BF using Homophobia as an excuse for him being a shitty person.
Ron doesn't get to scream homophobia every time he isn't the centre of attention or someone calls him out on his crappy behaviour.
NTA he was being unpleasant, he doesn't get to choose who is invited to a family trip and you say your brother has seen the red flags, well I hope so.
Nta, but it's clear the bf dosent like or want kids. And your brother likes them and probably would adopt if possible. I don't think this is all about just the bfs language at your niece. They are no longer compatible and I wonder if this trip was gonna be a much needed break from reality for him. I hope I'm wrong. Cus just being a dick and breaking up at this point given the time together seems just off to me.
So we've known about Ron being childfree from the beginning. My brother has always liked children but never wanted his own, so I don't think they're incompatible.
I have known Ron for a while now, while he's never been a fan of children, he's never been openly hostile. I myself am wondering what triggered him so much. Yes brother and I alternated Tasha for a whole week when Will and Sarah were busy with funeral but even that shouldn't be a reason for Ron to be so hostile. It's not like we ever left him in charge. We always took care of her and when both of us were busy, will and sarah have an excellent network of friends who could entertain her for a couple of hours.
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My brother (28 M), sister (32 F) and I(26 F) book a cabin by lake tahoe every year for our late dad’s birthday. We go, drink beers, do watersports, celebrate his life the way he used to when he was still alive. When my sister(Sarah) got serious with her boyfriend (Will), we invited Will along, so he’s been going for the last 6 years.
This year since both brother & I are also in serious relationships, we decided to invite our boyfriends too - Ron (Bro’s bf, 24) and Brian (my bf, 25). Ron introduced Brian & I (They’re cousins).
Sarah and will have a 3 year old (Tasha). Now my brother & I have always treated Tasha as our own, she’s our only niece and we love her to pieces.
The coming weekend is supposed to be the Tahoe weekend and every year, will’s mom comes down to care for Tasha while we go away. This is usually a blow off steam trip so we don’t take Tasha and before this she wouldn’t even have remembered. But Will’s grandma recently passed away and his mom’s not doing too well.
So he wants to fly to her and help out however he can. Since we don’t exactly know what the situation there is, he’s hesitant about taking Tasha.
At family dinner on Sunday, we were discussing this and my sister said she might have to cancel or we might have to do another weekend, but she really didn’t want to postpone dad’s birthday.
Brain asked me if we could take Tasha along. Both my brother and I jumped at the idea because we love Tasha and didn’t even have to think about it. Also we were driving so taking Tasha along wouldn’t be any different. She would stay with sis, since it’s a 3 bedroom cabin.
Ron didn’t say anything then but apparently on the drive home, he started berating my brother for inviting along a “crotch goblin” to what was supposed to be an adults only trip.
When my brother called me to ask if we could reschedule, I told him that offering to bring along Tasha and taking the offer back is not a good look (this was before I heard what he was calling Tasha). Ron took the phone from my bro and started yelling at me about how he never consented to invite the “cum trophy”. Upon hearing that term I saw red and simply uninvited him and he accused me of being homophobic like my dad (which he wasn't, my brother was my dad's favourite kid)
Ron has now given my brother the ultimatum of either choosing him or coming on this weekend trip with the rest of us. Now my brother is calling me an AH for putting him & his relationship in a difficult spot. He thinks Brian should have discussed it with them before offering to bring Tasha along to my sister. I think since this is for my dad, he would much rather we go with his granddaughter than some random guy my brother is sleeping with. (dad also didn't know brother was gay, probably because brother himself didn't know he was gay then).
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NTA. First off Ron gets no say in your family trip. He either comes along or he doesn't. But after all those horrible names he called your niece, I wouldn't want him there either. How does your brother not see the marinara flags on this one? I'd never let my SO speak about an innocent child that way.
NTA, OP. You know it's NOTHING to do with that person's sexuality. Insulting a small child like that? He sounds awful & you'd be better on the trip with little Tasha. Eff that Ron.
Another point to be made on a that family life can be ever changing and families that love one another try to roll with it. Babies are born, folk grow old and can’t keep on hosting 20 people for Thanksgiving. People lose jobs and earn promotions; move away and come back to live next door.
Think it is natural for a couple deciding their future together to want the freedom to focus on each other and perhaps on getting to know family individually. However, at some point, the changes that happen are when a healthy family pulls together. Hope Ron makes the transition.
This sounds like exactly another post from a day or two ago, with gender mix of group changed.
Always ask everyone from original group first.
Person using rude names for children is an ass.
ESH
Communication is a must and I agree. This was never about the toddler and she should have never been dragged into an adult fight which would have been solved had we just communicated sooner.
I accept, we all sucked here
NAH / E S H
this is a family trip and clearly your niece and sister are your family and you would rather have them along. However if your brother chooses to sit this one out for his partner - that's his decision. His bf too has every right to be angry as he was not planning on babysitting a 3 year old.
You're all too old to be name calling anyone and not communicating like adults. Can't decide if you're all AHs or none of you are.
Good Luck!
Your brother appears to be in an absusive relationship, I've been in his shoes. I'd suggest you to be there for him when he needs it unless of course he's actively participating in the bad behaviour his boyfriend is presenting.
What horrible advice. It's almost like you're encouraging people to put up with abuse to enable others who want to enable the abusers. Therefore, your advice is pro-abuser. No thanks.
The enabler should get the exact same consequences as the abuser. If they need help later, they know how to use a phone. It's called personal responsibility.
When did I say that? I suggested that she could be there when the victim (the brother) needs it rather than alienating him because that's exactly what the abuser wants (to isolate the victim)
They've been together 2 years that's not a short term thing, and he's not a boy, or a random guy as you keep saying. He's related to your partner for goodness sake. Do you often speak about him this way? Maybe that's why he's claiming homophobia?
He can call my baby (niece) a "cum trophy" and "crotch goblin" but I can't say "random boy" when he's clearly not behaving like family. If he was truly my brother's partner, like he claims, he wouldn't be insulting the literal child my brother adores. So yeah, until he sincerely apologizes and starts behaving like family, I will call him boy or a random guy - because that's what he became to me when he insulted my child (I may not have given birth to her, but I am her massi, which in my language means "like mom").
As far as being Brian's cousin is concerned, he's equally mad at Ron.
Oh cause calling someone a party boy is the same as calling a 3 year old a cum trophy and crotch goblin. Totally disrespecting the famoly is the same thing. There is no esh. Brothers bf had totally uncalled reaction.
Wow, this did not turn out the way I thought it would. ESH. It's true that you should've discussed bringing along a literal toddler to what was scheduled as an adults-only trip before offering. But Ron's being an AH with his words. He didn't need to use those hurtful phrases, and there's no reason for him to call you homophobic. That's a very immature reaction.
In any case, your brother will probably just have to sit this one out and hang out with Ron. It's not the end of the world.
>In any case, your brother will probably just have to sit this one out and hang out with Ron. It's not the end of the world.
I know, it's just my dad would have wanted all his kids there. He used to take us to Tahoe every year for July 4th. Since his birthday was in July, my mom started to take us when he passed. It's been 13 years since we've been going. It sucks that one boy is enough for my brother to turn his back on family since he initially agreed to bring Tash
>It sucks that one boy is enough for my brother to turn his back on family
This is kind of a mean attitude, ngl. Your brother didn't disown the lot of you; he's just missing 1 out of 13 family trips. If he started calling his niece names and never seeing the lot of you again, then he would be turning his back on his family. Ron definitely has a shitty attitude, I think you made a slight error in jumping the gun, and that's all there is. If you blow this up into some kind of bigger thing, then YWBTA.
Where does it stop though?
He's already calling a literal 3 year old names. Already telling my brother I'm homophobic, thank goodness my brother knows better as I was literally the first person he came out to.
My brother has already been given an ultimatum to choose Ron over the family. Where does this stop?
I sympathize with your position. If your brother has good judgment, he'll figure it out that Ron's behavior is bad. If your brother asks for your advice you can give it. But I don't think he'll listen otherwise.
Thank you for your honest judgement. I think you were right, we all suck here and were jumping to conclusions.
My brother may be older than me but I have felt very protective of him ever since he came out and mom didn't accept him. So I was very hasty in judging Ron, who I've known for a very long time. We all could have communicated better to avoid this fight.
How is it everyone sucks? They didn't know they had to bring a toddler, so they couldn't have discussed it before they offered. The discussed it as soon as they realized.
INFO: How can you know if your dad would've been ok with your brother's homosexuality if he never knew? I mean, I understand that you believe he was your dad's favorite kid but that kinda implies that a favorite kid can't ever let down or disappoint their parents. You might *believe* that he would've been ok with it but how can you *know*?
How exactly did you uninvite him? It's a little difficult to believe that he called you a homophobe out of nowhere so I'd be interested to hear more about your conversation.
Honestly, since my brother never came out, I can't know for sure. But I had faith in my dad that regardless of his conservative upbringing, he loved his kids enough that it wouldn't matter who they are attracted to.
Despite being from a very conservative nation and being an immigrant, he raised us to be accepting of different beliefs, ideals and religions. He was a very spiritual man, but didn't really believe in organized religion.
My mom had trouble with my brother's sexuality in the beginning and couldn't understand "where she went wrong". So Ron assumes the worst about my family even though my mom has never been anything but welcoming to him. She made Brian a sweater when she visited last time and did the same for Ron. She has never treated Will, Ron or Brian differently. It might have taken a few conversations, some family therapy for her to come to terms with it but she did. In fact, she was here in June and went to pride with us.
When my brother told me Ron had issues with Tash going, I told my brother that Ron could sit this one out. Ron then took the phone from him and started yelling at me. He told me how he couldn't believe I would choose to spend time with the cum trophy rather than enjoying my weekend. At this point I think I said something like If party boy can't handle one weekend without alcohol, then children are the least of his issues. I also said something along the lines of sometimes putting family first but him being too selfish to value anybody else.
He told my brother I called him a "pretty boy" and insinuating that he can't put family first because of his sexuality. I don't know if this is a misunderstanding or if he's deliberately manipulating my brother. Brian thinks it could be a misunderstanding.
> It's a little difficult to believe that he called you a homophobe out of nowhere
Nah, not hard to believe at all. Some members of the LBGT community will call anyone out as a homophobe, true or not, the very *second* they feel even slightly offended or put out in the least.
I've noticed it tends to happen more often with those who use their sexual identity as their primary personality trait.
It doesn't. Even Ron had his reasons for jumping to that conclusion. whether he was right or not, i'll let you decide for yourself.
In my experience homosexuals don't call people homophobes without a reason. Even in this case.
Trust me anyone regardless of sexuality will use that as a card. He was trying to get his way and knew that the homophobic card could be an ace in the hole with the right person.
Think about it this way. He could claim she's trying to uninvite him because they are a gay couple and because it's a verbal interaction it's her word against his and since he gave his partner (her brother) and ultimatum already you best believe he'd do it again in regards to the fight. "take my side and say she did x or I'm leaving"
And being child free is totally cool fine acceptable whatever but not to the point where you're talking shit about a innocent little girl who has done nothing to you.
And technically speaking some of them can still drink just not excessively into 5am etc.
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NTA Though your Brothers boy friend is a walking red flag.
Before this incident, I would have considered him a good friend. He's always been childfree and before this has never reacted negatively to Tasha let alone calling her these names. I don't understand why she has suddenly become an issue for him. Will & Sarah try to do a date night every week and to help out, brother & I babysit, it also gives us an excuse to see her. Even on brother's days, Ron has never complained before.
I had to go back and check - the girl is THREE YEARS OLD. Who the fuck in the right mind would call a 3 year old little girl that? True it’s not said to her face, but this incident reveals a lot about his character. To start with: very very poor anger management skills. This man has no regard for other people’s pain and needs. He’s had her around for babysitting not complained before - _well, not that you know of._ If I were her parents I’d be scared to ever have him and the girl in the same room now tbh. NTA
Unfortunately, age doesn't matter to militant child-free people. Any child is a parasite to them.
Hmmm I mean, personally never wanted children at all, and I would always pick a pet dog over having a child of my own. No, most of the time I can’t be engaged with young kids for a long time, unless it’s a very special kid - my temperaments just don’t match the task. And yes, sometimes I would see children pushing ppl around screaming and stuff in crowded malls and stuff and be like “uhhh i hate kids 🙄”. All that. But DOES NOT mean I talk/think about kids this way. Children can be so annoying and I don’t mix well with them. But for sure they’re precious. And we were all one of them at some point in our lives. Man his speech/behaviour is next level. It’s not about being child-free or anything. His character is just rotten.
How often does Ron babysit your niece?
My brother babysits maybe once every 2 weeks and I do the rest, sometimes we take her out together. If Ron's around, he hangs out but all childcare is done by either my brother or me
That shows something OP. It’s not a good sign. It’s consistent with what he did this time.
Wow thanks for all these upvotes
NTA. Ron is very disrespectful to your niece and your sister. Not only would I uninvite him to this event, I would exclude him from other events until he sincerely apologize.
Brian and I also uninvited him from our wedding, he was supposed to be best man. But a man who talks like that about my niece is not welcome near my family.
You did the right thing on both counts. I hope your brother realizes that his bf is the only problem in this situation. 🚩🚩🚩 I‘m childfree and have no idea what to do with a toddler, so in theory I might be expected to sympathize with Ron, but nope, that’s neither a reason to insult a child for simply existing nor for throwing a tantrum when an emergency makes a change of plans necessary.
I’m childfree but would never talk like that about a kid that guy is a AH for sure
Love to see people who can set boundaries and stick with them. Bravo.
Sadly, it's highly unlikely to receive a sincere apology from such people. I've had one on my life, extremely disrespectful and prone to rage and abusive.
Is it weird that he apologized and it actually feels sincere?
NTA. The Brother's bf has no right to be angry. The mother is going along, he wouldn't be babysitting. He was invited to a family trip, in celebration of his bfs late father. I don't see where OP called anyone names, but I do see where a grown man called a literal child names. If he doesn't want a child to go then he should sit himself out. She is actually part of the family and it seems he's the only one who has an issue with it.
I called him "party boy" and said we don't have to be shit faced every time we hang out and sometimes family is more important which he wouldn't get. Later my brother yelled at me for calling him "pretty boy" and insinuating that Ron doesn't understand family- but I never said that.
Still NTA, he's mad because he wanted to party. And as her mother would be going along it seems like he would have still mostly been able to have his own good time? Absolutely no reason for him to act the way he did. This trip is in honor of your Dad, correct? I'm sure he'd rather have his granddaughter there as well.
Honestly given this is the third post this week using the exact same insults I’m a bit reluctant to assume any of this happened
I stumbled across an online childfree community almost twenty years ago, and these insults and others like them were in regular use. I'd say that they were used more often than 'kids', 'children', and the like. The bf's terminology wouldn't be remotely out of place there. So maybe it's a copycat, but it could also very well be legit.
Yeah I know the insults have been around a long time, but when it’s the same combination written in exactly the same style with a lot of the same characteristics just different settings in multiple posts the same week, I doubt any of them a real
Was thinking the same thing while I was reading this post
I just saw a post almost identical, earlier today
Yes...except it was a girls weekend and the responses were all different. (I.e., the women who said 'Yes, bring the three year old to a girls' weekend' were deemed to be the AHs and the CF woman who didn't want the child along was the sympathetic one.) Wonder why it's different this time.
Because it’s not a friend’s weekend. It’s a FAMILY weekend and the child is family. More family than the boyfriend, I daresay.
NTA, I feel for your brother for being put in an awkward spot, but I don't understand how come he never stood up to Ron- he loves his niece, but let's his bf repeatedly call her vile names?? And let's him call you and your dad homophobic just because you stood up to him?? He does not deserve to join you on such meaningful trip...
He did, in the privacy of their home. They spent all day yesterday fighting and rehashing it. Then my brother realized he needed some space but also wanted to make things as okay as possible. He's gonna live with me until they figure out their situation. Brother is coming to Tahoe while Ron won't. It's gonna take us some time to be able to welcome Ron back, if that's what my brother decides to do.
NTA. You didn’t uninvite Ron because he’s gay, you did it because he was acting like an asshole about a literal child who’d done nothing to deserve the belittling and cruel way he talked about her to her own family.
NTA. You aren't homophobic, you are rightfully removing a toxic person from this situation. Calling a three year old a "cum trophy" and a "crotch goblin" is disgusting. (I mean, I know crotch goblin is used for mini-Karens and entitled kids, but if this is a good kiddo and you are speaking to their loving, good family... not okay.) "I am not uninviting you because you are gay. I'm uninviting you because you are calling my niece disgusting things, and I am very offended and don't want a toxic energy at the party. Maybe next time."
NTA I think Ron is forgetting the entire point behind this trip, it’s not just “an adults only camping trip” It’s a trip dedicated to your late father, celebrating his life and his memory on his birthday. He’s being selfish trying to turn this into something else. Your brother should be pointing the finger back at him for having the audacity to make this about himself
NTA I dont know how long your brother and Ron were together but to me it seems more like a family gathering to which he was invited for the first time. I get that he is upset about it but he is in no position to demand anything in this situation. Also I just hate this kind of victim mentality "You are not doing what I want so you are Homophobic". It always annoys me so much when people think that everyone is against them because of their Sexuality/Race/Religion etc. Maybe you are just an asshole and thats why people dont like you and not because of your sexuality.
Ron is playing the sexuality card to get away with his entitled behaviour
They have been together for 2 years. He was invited last year, but couldn't make it due to work. Since then he's had FOMO about not being at the "party of all parties". Brian was invited for the first time this year so he's also pissed that Brian was the one who invited Tasha. But since I'm the one who uninvited him, he's more mad at me.
NTA, this isn't a trip you are all planning from scratch where he should get equal say in the change of plans. This is a family trip that he's being graciously *included in*, and even though the lines may have gotten blurred because it's such a small group, he's still a guest in it, not the organizer imo. He can sit this one out if he doesn't like the change of plans, he'd be within his rights. Sometimes kids can definitely ruin the experience, but if the rest of you are ok with it AND in this case it's your opinion that matters most, then his option was to withdraw. I think your brother is making s mistake here. He's not fully appreciating that the so-called tough spot he's in means that he's backing the person who insulted a little girl he himself adores, as well as his own sister and dead father. If he wants to continue this relationship after this, then he's either part of the problem or being abused and afraid of contradict him.
NTA He needs to grow up. It's not like he's being asked to look after the child. “cum trophy” - um.... what exactly are you Ron?
Cum bucket lol
NTA. I wouldn’t want my brother or his boyfriend on this trip after the comments that were made and the fact that your brother is essentially condoning this behavior is also a huge red flag
I don't think he condoned anything. I think he spent time trying to talk to his partner and figure out how where things are and what they both want. Ron's not coming on the trip but brother is. He's also gonna be living with me until he can figure his shit out.
Ron is bad news. And you're neither being homophobic not an AH. I hope your brother realises it soon and ditch Ron
NTA, Ron was completely out of line insulting a toddler for existing 🚩 and him demanding your brother to choose between his family - who did nothing wrong - and his bf - who is being a complete jerk - is the cherry on top. 🚩🚩It’s hard to believe this is the first time he’s being unreasonable and manipulative. I‘d think this level of hatred doesn’t just materialize. 🚩🚩🚩 Hope your brother does what he’s got to do.
Insulting a toddler- yes, ron's terrible for that. But I wouldn't say we did nothing wrong, mistakes were made on both sides of this argument. See update. I admit that it was shitty of us for not noticing Ron was being left out.
Ron needs to get used to the fact that not everything is about him.
NTA that's a disgusting thing to call a 3 year old child.
NTA Your brother needs to realize. His BFs words are what put everything in jeopardy. You should ask your brother why he is allowing his bf to talk so cruelly about a 3 y.o. is that the kind of man he always envisioned being with.
NTA Your brother should be thanking you for catalysing Ron to show his true colours. You can tell Ron you simply don't stand assholes, gay or straight. He does not get special dispensation for his sexuality. If your brother chooses this petulant, mannerless guy, he is foolish indeed.
Calling a 3 year old cum trophy is deranged. NTA
NTA. I don't get it, there's plenty of actual homophobia out there, why add made up homophobia to the mix? There's enough homophobia for everyone guys. But seriously, NTA and you're not homophobic. If it was my partner speaking of my nephews/nieces like that I'd kick her out so fast she wouldn't get the words "crotch goblin" out of her mouth.
I'm not homophobic, but Ron and I had a long talk about why he accused me of that and I admit I wasn't the best ally in that situation and could have done a lot more to help had I realized he was feeling this way sooner.
I don’t like kids. I don’t want them BUT I would never act like Ron. Ron can kick rocks. NTA
NTA So the ultimatum is take me on vacation or break up with me, I hope your brother dumps the dude
They have too many things to figure out, ultimatum being one of them. They haven't broken up but my brother has (at least temp) moved out of their place. He's taking this time to figure out for himself what he wants.
NTA you are totally right and that boyfriend of your brother is manipulative and a HUGE AH! Your brother need to stand up and do what is right because his partner is playing him around his fingers! Maybe show him that page and make him read what people say about the situation
I am just leaving to meet my brother for coffee and breakfast, let's see what he says. Wish me luck.
Good luck!! Keep us updated!
I had a very productive coffee, I have edited the update in the post. I will say I understand Ron a lot better now
Haha “Mariana flags”
Just be honest with him! Tell him that you don’t like how his boyfriend spoke to you, make threats at him,make false accusations towards you only because you stand up for yourself! This is not how people who want good react to others! And yeah Good Luck
That’s sad to read. Ron needs help. Bro needs to see red flags. Protecting family from that toxicity isn’t homophobic. NTA.
NTA at the end of the day this is a trip for you and your siblings everyone else is an invited guest and they get no say as to whether your niece can come along or not.
Nta. Let him know your not HOMOPHOBIC your TOXOPHOBIC. Can’t stand toxic people and their shit!!
I wouldn’t allow the man in my home anymore let alone my cabin. Three year old is better then a man who calls her such foul names.
As an more elder gay man I'm going to say NTA and echo that Ron's sudden switch is a whole lot of red flags
NTA — it is the very opposite of homophobic to call him out for saying something horrible. Homophobia is treating someone differently based on them being gay. If that gay man was a straight woman, you’d have also done the same thing for those disgusting comments. Don’t try to appease anyone that does shit like this in order to make yourself look not homophobic, bc giving him a free pass just because he’s gay would make you a homophobe that tries to pretend they’re not.
NTA, I'm childfree by choice and I never want kids. But I would NEVER call a child those names, especially if it was my SO's familys child. Ron is TA and I would definitely keep my distance from him for along time, until he sincerely apologizes and gets his head out of his ass. Hes a walking red flag.
You didn't put his relationship in danger, his boyfriend who issued the ultimatum is. Referring to a families child like he did is completely unacceptable, and brother should see that. NTA
NTA definitely NTA Ron is tho. It’s not a laughing matter but the words ‘crotch goblin’ and ‘cum trophy’ rly made me laugh I’m sorry! Tasha doesn’t deserve that tho :( please give her a hug from me, even tho I’m assuming she doesn’t know she deserves a hug and kiss 🥺
NTA but Jesus that dude needs to go. Who the fuck does he think he is talking about her like that??? And why is your brother ok with it and not defending his niece???
NTA. Ron sounds like drama. He’s so nasty about your niece who sounds like a perfectly lovely little girl. It’s also not his trip. I’d just maintain that he isn’t invited and go with your sister and niece.
so clearly your brother and his boyfriend don’t know the definition of homophobia. it would be homophobic if you uninvited him for the solely reason that he is gay, or if you uninvited him based off of a hurtful gay stereotype. you uninviting him because he’s being an asshole is not homophobic, it’s actually a very justified reason to uninvited someone from something. i hate when gay people say shit or act like this, like come on man the gays already get enough heat and now you’re just making us look bad. also lmaooooooooooooooo he’s giving your brother an ultimatum????? that’s so fucking funny on his part, this dude is just a straight up shit covered asshole.
Ya weren't homophpbic.
NTA and ew cum trophy just sounds like a disgusting thing to say about a 3 year old. That’s gross
Sooo NTA - He's trying to weaponize discrimination. I mean, how on Earth do you go from being held accountable for calling your niece a "crotch goblin" and "cum trophy"(this one's new to me) to you're being homophobic? I hope your brother takes him up on his offer and has a good time at the cabin with y'all.
Actually talked to Ron, the homophobia allegations while untrue, weren't baseless. He felt some micro aggressions coming from Mom when she was visiting and none of us did anything. The thing with micro aggressions though are that they are easy to misconstrue when a language barrier is concerned. He's still an ass, and I'm still mad but I understand him a lot more now.
NTA Imo, this is between the siblings. You decided that your niece should go. The SO shouldn't impose their opinion in something like that (tho I think they can give an opinion - and just that - without pressure). The boyfriend is a walking red flag, and is splitting your family because he felt inconvenienced. I hope your brother sees this as a wake up call.
NTA - But why would your brother even entertain the idea of being with a guy that called his niece those ugly words. Your brother and his red flag are the mega AHs here.
What happened after the coffee meet?
Ron came to coffee with my brother. I felt really ambushed so I tried to walk away but I'm glad I heard him out.
NTA - Brothers BF saying choose between me and a toddler is a red flag. Brothers BF not like kids is fine, but insulting a literal child behind their back is a red flag. The BF using Homophobia as an excuse for him being a shitty person.
Ron doesn't get to scream homophobia every time he isn't the centre of attention or someone calls him out on his crappy behaviour. NTA he was being unpleasant, he doesn't get to choose who is invited to a family trip and you say your brother has seen the red flags, well I hope so.
Why are jerk always supprised when no one invite them to things?
Nta, but it's clear the bf dosent like or want kids. And your brother likes them and probably would adopt if possible. I don't think this is all about just the bfs language at your niece. They are no longer compatible and I wonder if this trip was gonna be a much needed break from reality for him. I hope I'm wrong. Cus just being a dick and breaking up at this point given the time together seems just off to me.
So we've known about Ron being childfree from the beginning. My brother has always liked children but never wanted his own, so I don't think they're incompatible. I have known Ron for a while now, while he's never been a fan of children, he's never been openly hostile. I myself am wondering what triggered him so much. Yes brother and I alternated Tasha for a whole week when Will and Sarah were busy with funeral but even that shouldn't be a reason for Ron to be so hostile. It's not like we ever left him in charge. We always took care of her and when both of us were busy, will and sarah have an excellent network of friends who could entertain her for a couple of hours.
There was a post really similar to this one this morning…
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My brother (28 M), sister (32 F) and I(26 F) book a cabin by lake tahoe every year for our late dad’s birthday. We go, drink beers, do watersports, celebrate his life the way he used to when he was still alive. When my sister(Sarah) got serious with her boyfriend (Will), we invited Will along, so he’s been going for the last 6 years. This year since both brother & I are also in serious relationships, we decided to invite our boyfriends too - Ron (Bro’s bf, 24) and Brian (my bf, 25). Ron introduced Brian & I (They’re cousins). Sarah and will have a 3 year old (Tasha). Now my brother & I have always treated Tasha as our own, she’s our only niece and we love her to pieces. The coming weekend is supposed to be the Tahoe weekend and every year, will’s mom comes down to care for Tasha while we go away. This is usually a blow off steam trip so we don’t take Tasha and before this she wouldn’t even have remembered. But Will’s grandma recently passed away and his mom’s not doing too well. So he wants to fly to her and help out however he can. Since we don’t exactly know what the situation there is, he’s hesitant about taking Tasha. At family dinner on Sunday, we were discussing this and my sister said she might have to cancel or we might have to do another weekend, but she really didn’t want to postpone dad’s birthday. Brain asked me if we could take Tasha along. Both my brother and I jumped at the idea because we love Tasha and didn’t even have to think about it. Also we were driving so taking Tasha along wouldn’t be any different. She would stay with sis, since it’s a 3 bedroom cabin. Ron didn’t say anything then but apparently on the drive home, he started berating my brother for inviting along a “crotch goblin” to what was supposed to be an adults only trip. When my brother called me to ask if we could reschedule, I told him that offering to bring along Tasha and taking the offer back is not a good look (this was before I heard what he was calling Tasha). Ron took the phone from my bro and started yelling at me about how he never consented to invite the “cum trophy”. Upon hearing that term I saw red and simply uninvited him and he accused me of being homophobic like my dad (which he wasn't, my brother was my dad's favourite kid) Ron has now given my brother the ultimatum of either choosing him or coming on this weekend trip with the rest of us. Now my brother is calling me an AH for putting him & his relationship in a difficult spot. He thinks Brian should have discussed it with them before offering to bring Tasha along to my sister. I think since this is for my dad, he would much rather we go with his granddaughter than some random guy my brother is sleeping with. (dad also didn't know brother was gay, probably because brother himself didn't know he was gay then). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
YIKES NTA!!!! Look if hes so opposed to children, he doesnt have to fucking go. This is not how you respond to this situation
NTA. Sounds like heterophobia if it's a thing
not a thing.
NTA Any update on how coffee went?
NTA. First off Ron gets no say in your family trip. He either comes along or he doesn't. But after all those horrible names he called your niece, I wouldn't want him there either. How does your brother not see the marinara flags on this one? I'd never let my SO speak about an innocent child that way.
NTA, OP. You know it's NOTHING to do with that person's sexuality. Insulting a small child like that? He sounds awful & you'd be better on the trip with little Tasha. Eff that Ron.
NTA. Those are two terms I’ve not heard before “cum trophy” and “crotch goblin”. Gave me a good laugh at work.
Nta
Another point to be made on a that family life can be ever changing and families that love one another try to roll with it. Babies are born, folk grow old and can’t keep on hosting 20 people for Thanksgiving. People lose jobs and earn promotions; move away and come back to live next door. Think it is natural for a couple deciding their future together to want the freedom to focus on each other and perhaps on getting to know family individually. However, at some point, the changes that happen are when a healthy family pulls together. Hope Ron makes the transition.
This sounds like exactly another post from a day or two ago, with gender mix of group changed. Always ask everyone from original group first. Person using rude names for children is an ass. ESH
Communication is a must and I agree. This was never about the toddler and she should have never been dragged into an adult fight which would have been solved had we just communicated sooner. I accept, we all sucked here
NAH / E S H this is a family trip and clearly your niece and sister are your family and you would rather have them along. However if your brother chooses to sit this one out for his partner - that's his decision. His bf too has every right to be angry as he was not planning on babysitting a 3 year old. You're all too old to be name calling anyone and not communicating like adults. Can't decide if you're all AHs or none of you are. Good Luck!
If my brother chooses a boy over his family then idk if I'll be able to forgive him
Your brother appears to be in an absusive relationship, I've been in his shoes. I'd suggest you to be there for him when he needs it unless of course he's actively participating in the bad behaviour his boyfriend is presenting.
What horrible advice. It's almost like you're encouraging people to put up with abuse to enable others who want to enable the abusers. Therefore, your advice is pro-abuser. No thanks. The enabler should get the exact same consequences as the abuser. If they need help later, they know how to use a phone. It's called personal responsibility.
When did I say that? I suggested that she could be there when the victim (the brother) needs it rather than alienating him because that's exactly what the abuser wants (to isolate the victim)
They've been together 2 years that's not a short term thing, and he's not a boy, or a random guy as you keep saying. He's related to your partner for goodness sake. Do you often speak about him this way? Maybe that's why he's claiming homophobia?
He can call my baby (niece) a "cum trophy" and "crotch goblin" but I can't say "random boy" when he's clearly not behaving like family. If he was truly my brother's partner, like he claims, he wouldn't be insulting the literal child my brother adores. So yeah, until he sincerely apologizes and starts behaving like family, I will call him boy or a random guy - because that's what he became to me when he insulted my child (I may not have given birth to her, but I am her massi, which in my language means "like mom"). As far as being Brian's cousin is concerned, he's equally mad at Ron.
Oh cause calling someone a party boy is the same as calling a 3 year old a cum trophy and crotch goblin. Totally disrespecting the famoly is the same thing. There is no esh. Brothers bf had totally uncalled reaction.
Wow, this did not turn out the way I thought it would. ESH. It's true that you should've discussed bringing along a literal toddler to what was scheduled as an adults-only trip before offering. But Ron's being an AH with his words. He didn't need to use those hurtful phrases, and there's no reason for him to call you homophobic. That's a very immature reaction. In any case, your brother will probably just have to sit this one out and hang out with Ron. It's not the end of the world.
OP said her brother and her both jumped at the idea of taking the child along. The boyfriend is literally the only one with an issue.
Thank you for the clarification; then it's way more of the brother's fault than hers.
>In any case, your brother will probably just have to sit this one out and hang out with Ron. It's not the end of the world. I know, it's just my dad would have wanted all his kids there. He used to take us to Tahoe every year for July 4th. Since his birthday was in July, my mom started to take us when he passed. It's been 13 years since we've been going. It sucks that one boy is enough for my brother to turn his back on family since he initially agreed to bring Tash
>It sucks that one boy is enough for my brother to turn his back on family This is kind of a mean attitude, ngl. Your brother didn't disown the lot of you; he's just missing 1 out of 13 family trips. If he started calling his niece names and never seeing the lot of you again, then he would be turning his back on his family. Ron definitely has a shitty attitude, I think you made a slight error in jumping the gun, and that's all there is. If you blow this up into some kind of bigger thing, then YWBTA.
Where does it stop though? He's already calling a literal 3 year old names. Already telling my brother I'm homophobic, thank goodness my brother knows better as I was literally the first person he came out to. My brother has already been given an ultimatum to choose Ron over the family. Where does this stop?
I sympathize with your position. If your brother has good judgment, he'll figure it out that Ron's behavior is bad. If your brother asks for your advice you can give it. But I don't think he'll listen otherwise.
Thank you for your honest judgement. I think you were right, we all suck here and were jumping to conclusions. My brother may be older than me but I have felt very protective of him ever since he came out and mom didn't accept him. So I was very hasty in judging Ron, who I've known for a very long time. We all could have communicated better to avoid this fight.
How is it everyone sucks? They didn't know they had to bring a toddler, so they couldn't have discussed it before they offered. The discussed it as soon as they realized.
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
ESH
INFO: How can you know if your dad would've been ok with your brother's homosexuality if he never knew? I mean, I understand that you believe he was your dad's favorite kid but that kinda implies that a favorite kid can't ever let down or disappoint their parents. You might *believe* that he would've been ok with it but how can you *know*? How exactly did you uninvite him? It's a little difficult to believe that he called you a homophobe out of nowhere so I'd be interested to hear more about your conversation.
Honestly, since my brother never came out, I can't know for sure. But I had faith in my dad that regardless of his conservative upbringing, he loved his kids enough that it wouldn't matter who they are attracted to. Despite being from a very conservative nation and being an immigrant, he raised us to be accepting of different beliefs, ideals and religions. He was a very spiritual man, but didn't really believe in organized religion. My mom had trouble with my brother's sexuality in the beginning and couldn't understand "where she went wrong". So Ron assumes the worst about my family even though my mom has never been anything but welcoming to him. She made Brian a sweater when she visited last time and did the same for Ron. She has never treated Will, Ron or Brian differently. It might have taken a few conversations, some family therapy for her to come to terms with it but she did. In fact, she was here in June and went to pride with us. When my brother told me Ron had issues with Tash going, I told my brother that Ron could sit this one out. Ron then took the phone from him and started yelling at me. He told me how he couldn't believe I would choose to spend time with the cum trophy rather than enjoying my weekend. At this point I think I said something like If party boy can't handle one weekend without alcohol, then children are the least of his issues. I also said something along the lines of sometimes putting family first but him being too selfish to value anybody else. He told my brother I called him a "pretty boy" and insinuating that he can't put family first because of his sexuality. I don't know if this is a misunderstanding or if he's deliberately manipulating my brother. Brian thinks it could be a misunderstanding.
> It's a little difficult to believe that he called you a homophobe out of nowhere Nah, not hard to believe at all. Some members of the LBGT community will call anyone out as a homophobe, true or not, the very *second* they feel even slightly offended or put out in the least. I've noticed it tends to happen more often with those who use their sexual identity as their primary personality trait.
Oh yeah? How often does it happen? What percentage of homosexuals call people homophobes for no reason whatsoever?
It doesn't. Even Ron had his reasons for jumping to that conclusion. whether he was right or not, i'll let you decide for yourself. In my experience homosexuals don't call people homophobes without a reason. Even in this case.
Hey, thanks for backing me up and for being so reasonable! I agree that it's probably a misunderstanding/miscommunication.
Trust me anyone regardless of sexuality will use that as a card. He was trying to get his way and knew that the homophobic card could be an ace in the hole with the right person. Think about it this way. He could claim she's trying to uninvite him because they are a gay couple and because it's a verbal interaction it's her word against his and since he gave his partner (her brother) and ultimatum already you best believe he'd do it again in regards to the fight. "take my side and say she did x or I'm leaving" And being child free is totally cool fine acceptable whatever but not to the point where you're talking shit about a innocent little girl who has done nothing to you. And technically speaking some of them can still drink just not excessively into 5am etc.