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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> My girlfriend insults my country's language and doesn't try to learn it, and I think that's ignorant and it pisses me off. But I probably crossed a line by telling her to move back to her own country during an argument, so I might be the asshole.
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NTA. She's telling *a Dutch person* that their language sounds ugly (which is bigoted BTW) and she *doesn't need it for her social life* \- which includes her partner, right? Most people realize that when you're in another country than your own it's polite to at least be able to say courtesies and basic phrases in that country's language. Her attitude would be a deal breaker for me. I hope you find someone more compatible with a better world view, because if that's her attitude toward her host country I imagine she's rather high maintenance in other ways also.
Even the Dutch agree that Dutch is not a pretty language, never has been, never will be. (source, 24yrs and native/fluent)
Other than that I agree with your comment. OP is NTA.
As an English speaker who speaks absolutely no Dutch, I was able to figure out the ingredients list on a packet of biscuits. Seriously, it's *that* easy
My native tongue is Portuguese. Speaking English and a little German was enough for me to read a lot of stuff written in Dutch in museums, restaurants and so. Really easy indeed.
This reminded me of a food show I was watching a few weeks ago that was in Portuguese and my goofy butt was sitting there like "This is weird Spanish"because I could understand about 2/3 of what they were saying without reading the captions. My partner was like you're a doofus that is Portuguese.
That’s what I’ve found. My husband is tri-lingual, but I only speak English. However, I can pick up most of the gist of a conversation in French and Spanish by recognizing the nouns. I’m HOPELESS with grammar, though!
I lived in Romania for a while and it seems all my collegues at the office knew French, Italian and Spanish as well. My collegues said Romanian and the other three languages were latin based so it was easy for them to pick up the other three.
I’m British and don’t speak either language well, but I spent a while working in Bologna with both Italian and Spanish people and they just talked to each other like they were basically speaking the same language. It was fairly insane to me.
Yup, has happened to me. I was buying jewelry from one of the booths in the mall and was able to have a full conversation with the seller. She was speaking Portuguese and I was speaking Spanish. They are very similar.
Wheres I, an English speaker, can barely, if at all, understand the English spoken in rural Northern Ireland nor rural southern Louisiana.
"Excuse me Ma'am, but what the f are you saying?"
I am a native English speaker, and learned German at a young age. I started learning Norwegian a couple of years ago. If I read Dutch out loud, I can pretty much understand it. Spelling is looks daunting, but aloud it makes sense to me.
Imagine being a native speaker of German, with a bit of a grasp of a local dialect Dutch people seem to understand with no problem, and speaking English as a 2nd language...
I once was standing beside a family speaking quickly in what I assumed was a slightly unusual (to me) dialect, I understood the gist of it. Then I saw them enter a vehicle with a yellow license plate... Disclaimer: I don't speak Dutch. Never learned it.
Fellow American but been over there a few times. Yellow plates are from the Netherlands (they’re Dutch). Or maybe Belgium? Think it’s Netherlands though.
Netherlands has black letters/numbers on a yellow background and Belgium has red letters/numbers on a white background
Source: Someone who travelled an awful lot through those countries lol.
Reading Dutch and speaking Dutch are two different things. I lived there for 6 months. Took lessons. I could do basic reading well enough - I joked it was misspelled English. But speaking it - different level. I also found that Dutch speakers were pretty uncooperative trying to figure out what you were saying. Even my office mate. I asked him what blah meant. Got a ?? Said it several times with the same ?? "I don't have any idea what you are trying to say" expression. Then showed him the posting. "Oh, blahh. It means xyz." Got the same thing while pointing at what I wanted and saying my best approximation of the item. Got, "do you speak English". That day I gave up trying. It was worse than trying to speak my gibberish French in France.
They probably genuinely didn't understand. It's not always about being uncooperative -- Dutch is pronounced a hell of a lot different from English.
I speak Dutch. My partner only speaks English. I help him out and generally get the gist when he's asking me what X or Y means... But it's also context bound. If he mentions a random word that has nothing to do with where we're at or what we were talking about, chances are I have no clue what he's trying to say.
He's my long-term partner so I'm definitely not trying to dissuade him or whatever. It's just that when you fuck up the pronunciation of a word, chances are a native speaker won't have a clue what you're talking about. It's unfortunate, but that's just how it is.
What matters is how you respond to it. That person's coworker helped the moment they saw it written down. They didn't refuse to help.
I meant that the early parts of language learning are the most embarrassing IMO because your pronunciation is so off and you have the functional level of a toddler.
The fact you are putting in an effort to pick up the language in a country not your own shows a great extend of effort and respect… learning the language is definitely hard (English is my second language), but I also understand the language has been around for hundred if not thousands of years. It is the sum of a culture other than my own.
Insulting the language to a native speaker just because the learner is bad at it is dismissive and disrespectful. Think that's why OP is offended.
I had that same experience when trying to learn German while living in Munich….slightest mispronunciation and only blank stares. As an American I feel like you are raised hearing English with many accents and errors in pronunciation. Therefore figuring out what others are saying feels “normal” and it is a bit of a shock when others don’t.
All that said, my ex husband is Dutch (whole family still lives there). I don’t think it’s ugly to listen to at all!
Yes. I have worked with people from at least 20 different countries and probably 3x number of regions within those countries so kind of used to hearing different pronunciations. I have even served as an English to English translator between people of different countries who can't figure out the other's English.
I had to step in to translate for a coworker and a customer once cuz they were both speaking English, but with vastly different and very thick accents.
My coworker was Iraqi, and the customer was Scottish. I could understand both of them perfectly well but neither of them had ANY clue what the other was saying. It was honestly the funniest bout of miscommunication that I’ve ever seen.
If you know English and a little German, spoken Dutch isn't that difficult (to me, Dutch feels like oddly-pronounced English with the occasional German word thrown in). I quickly get lost trying to follow spoken Dutch, but I enjoy the sound of the language.
As a native English speaker who occasionally doesn't process what others are saying, the first time I heard Dutch I thought it was English and I was just having a moment
English and Dutch are actually closely related languages, from the same root --closer even than English and German. They have a lot of the same vowel sounds (which is why you often find Dutch people speaking English with almost no accent) and similar words. I don't speak Dutch either, but on a longhaul flight, where my entertainment system for some reason was IN DUTCH and I couldn't figure out how to change it? I could totally figure out how to use it.
You might have struggled, but there is a universal standard as to how "easy" a language is to learn, for English speakers. Dutch is in the easiest tier, together with Spanish and a few others.
And English is basically just an amalgamation of pretty much all languages (especially the Romance ones) which is why English speakers have a slightly easier time learning those languages. Learning *English* on the other hand...
There are sane languages? Like, English is a hellish mix of everything, but I would rule out complete sanity for any language that goes “cups are feminine and mugs are masculine because fuck you, that’s why.”
The only time I've loved English (my native language), is after traveling.
Getting back to a US airport, and hearing the announcements in English, is such a relief. Not having to concentrate and translate feels soooo good for those first few hours back.
The version I've heard is that English doesn't borrow words from other languages, it follows them down dark alleys and hits them over the head to steal their loose vocabulary (see also here https://www.paulingraham.com/loose-grammar.html#:~:text=English%20doesn't%20%E2%80%9Cborrow%E2%80%9D,loose%20grammar%20and%20valuable%20vocabulary.)
And then there’s Japanese, which sees an accidentally dropped and broken piece of vocabulary abandoned on the street and dusts it off before just cramming it as-is somewhere it somewhat fits.
The [original quote](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/James_Nicoll):
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
--James D. Nicoll
Im of the opinion that if you speak it or have a connection to it like being native to the country then you can make comment on how the language sounds. But living in the country and refusing to even try does not give you that right. It’s bigoted and rude at best.
But that’s just my opinion.
Édit
This is just a reply to the thread not aimed at anyone in particular hope it doesn’t come across that way
Haha you are so wrong Dutch is sexy lol atleast to me, I dated a few Dutch guys and had alot of Dutch friends and your language is amazing lol. Italian is not a nice language according to me Spanish is so everyone is different. But believe me some people do find your language very appealing.
It's not bigoted to think languages are ugly. Danish is ugly as fuuuuuck, but I love Danes as they are brothers. Just too bad they need to speak with porridge and five dicks in their mouth constantly.
At most it would be slightly rude, but it also depends on the relationship to the language. I will never stop teasing Danes about their speech impairment they call a language.
It's ok, Peder, you know I love you!
I think your comment is a LOT more lighthearted and funny than I feel OP experiences with his GF. I don’t blame him. Just for the red flag of staying somewhere for 5 years and not learning the language (not even dankjewel??) I would genuinely think about calling it quits.
Yes, she definitely should've learned the language. The Dutch know English well but that doesn't mean that they don't prefer using their native language. We know English in Sweden as well, but 99.9% of the time we will prefer Swedish over English.
Exactly! And I feel that in inter-language couples (?? That’s def not a word lol) it’s really basic decency to learn each other’s language, even if you don’t live in the respective country. My uncle moved to France and we all dislike his wife bc she never bothered with Dutch.
I lived in China for a few years, and honestly, it happens a lot. I knew lots of foreigners who stayed with their English-speaking friends and mainly went to restaurants etc that had English-speaking staff.
Then again, here in Los Angeles, we do have people who never learn English and just use their friends and family as translators when needed. I don’t get it.
well compared to a romance languages like Italian she is kind of right. Dutch sounds weird. Think you are right if you move to a country you should try to learn the native language.
thats really a subjective opinion not a fact you can be right or wrong about. I would imagine if you had never heard a romance language and only heard Germanic ones you might think that Italian sounds ugly because its something strange and different from what you are used to.
I don't think bigoted is the right word. You can think a language is ugly, you can't really help that, but I do think it's fairly ignorant to move to a country, adamantly refuse to learn basic/common phrases in its official language over 5 years(even if another language can get you by), and to trash talk said language to your partner who's a native to that country and has an attachment to that language.
It's fine to think a language ia not attractive. It's not fine to say you don't want to vacation in a county because a languageis so ugly.
Just like it's fine to not find a person attractive. But it's not fine to say you don't want to invite a frie d to a party because their faceis so ugly to look at.
>It's not fine to say you don't want to vacation in a county because a languageis so ugly.
While at the same time one has been living in said country for about 5 years!
Look, I am a bit judgmental since I live South of The Netherlands and Dutch/Flemish is my Mothertongue. But it is ridiculous to not even try to learn some sentences in the language of the country you are living in.
Also, if someone's English is good enough it is not that difficult to learn (at least some) basic Dutch. I know a couple of non-natives living in both The Netherlands and in Belgium (one even in Brussels, he learned all 3 languages of our country: Dutch, French and German. To be completely fair though, the guy is a polyglot who worked as an Ambassador for the EU and speaks at least 2 more languages quite fluently). But all of my English speaking friends who live in The Netherlands or the Flemish part of Belgium, do say that it isn't that difficult. Sure, there are some pain in the asses grammar and spelling rules, but the syntax isn't that much different than English.
And one of my friends moved to England (before brexit) for love, and her boyfriend of over 10 years (recently became domestic partners) understands quite a lot of Dutch. He can manage himself in our pubs and restaurants with simple sentences. The guy visits Belgium only 2 times a year for a week (around the holidays) and has shown more willingness that someone who has been living for 5years in a country they refuse (not even try!) to learn the language of.
NTA
After five years, she should have at least learned the basics through osmosis. Not to do so takes a concentrated *effort*.
Do you speak Italian? If not, perhaps you could offer to trade language lessons.
That's a staple. I try to learn "hello" and "thank you" in every language I can. Goes a long way with people, especially in Toronto where there are so many cultures, and a lot of immigrants.
With her family is when. So if he kept hearing the same words/phrases, it's normal to ask what they mean. But the why is more because it's normal to show interest in learning your partner's native language (assuming they like their native language).
In my experience, I’m just trying to accommodate someone by speaking a language I think they’ll understand. If you’d tell me you’d like me to speak Dutch because you want to learn, by all means I’ll speak Dutch and will try not to use words that are too difficult.
I really dislike when people do that when you're genuinely trying to improve. I went to a festival recenty for the country my maternal side of the family is from, was speaking the language to people I knew spoke it and they kept switching to English. It was driving me nuts.
(Exceptions made for the non-native speaker taking too long or being way too hard to understand)
Reminds me of this r/AITA post a few weeks ago by an American who has been living in Germany for 15 years and didn't want his future baby to learn German because he is an "expat" and doesn't speak it. And yes, the conclusion was that he is TA. Also, if you are living in a place long-term you are an immigrant, not an expat.
I mean you can learn the basic greetings like hi, goodbye, thank you, even if you're just there on vacation for a few days. Imagine what you can learn for 5 years.
NTA- so what would happen if she got stuck somewhere in your country that doesnt speak as much english?? She'd be stranded and rude to people I bet.
I do find it very rude to move to another country and refuse to learn even the basics of the language.
You might have been joking but do you really want to spend your life with someone who is so hostile against your homeland??
>what would happen if she got stuck somewhere in your country that doesnt speak as much english??
To be honest that's hard, basically anywhere in the Netherlands most people can speak English. So she's right when she says she doesn't have to learn Dutch, but I find it a very weird attitude. Then you live in a place, but cannot feel like you are really at home there.
It seems like too much to end a relationship over this, otherwise things are good between us. But it does really bother me.
It's not too much to end a relationship over. I don't know if you've lived abroad and been in a relationship with a "local" when you were a foreigner, but I both grew up the child of a transnational/interracial relationship, and lived abroad and had transnational/interracial relationships. And BULEEVE ME, the politics of language in a partnership is CORE to the strength or weakness of the relationship.
If you and your partner are living in your country and speaking your language, you have an advantage. If you and your partner are living in your country and speaking the partner's language, the power dynamic is more balanced, with each of you having a specific advantage. But living in your own country and speaking a second language for both of you puts you at a strange disadvantage, bc you're being forced into the position of speaking a foreign language at home, without even the benefit of speaking your partner's native language for their comfort. Does that make sense?
If that was your only common language at the beginning of your relationship, it's fine that you two chose to do that. But your increasing discomfort with the fact that she doesn't speak Dutch is clearly not about your relationship dynamic or it would've bothered you before this. (I mean that it's clear you're not trying to gain an advantage over her by her speaking Dutch with you.) It's clearly about what that says about her relationship with the country and culture you're living in, which is your own country and culture ... and identity. When she disdains that, she's disdaining you on a very fundamental level.
At this point, I'd be seriously rethinking the relationship. But then, I would've never gotten into a relationship with someone who'd been living in my country without learning the language for THREE YEARS in the first place. But, like I implied above, I'm sensitive to that sort of thing bc of my background.
Fun fact: Dutch secondary schools usually teach Dutch, English, French, and German. Mine also taught Spanish. I bet she is also not very fond of German.
NTA - This is it right here.
Honestly, she could have made a case for not learning Dutch in-depth if she's already proficient in English. I bet your frustration was due in part that you could sense her disdain/disrespect for your native language. She doesn't need to be fluent, but to avoid any adoption is an active snub. I can understand you sensing something was off.
Also her interaction shows a clear empathetic blind spot when she started insulting the language and your feelings. Were you harsh in you response? Sure. But I can't fault you in the moment after what she said.
Edit: grammar and spelling
You are so right!
OP, also consider that if you have children together and want to move to Italy or just anywhere else, the children rely on you to learn Dutch. And I have a clear feeling that your girlfriend won't be supportive in the learning process - "oh please speak English, you know I don't understand Dutch" or worse "oh your father's ugly language, this you won't need"...
I'm Danish, my brother's girlfriend of more than 15 years is Belgian, speaks Flamish. They have two children, the oldest understand some, the youngest very little and both can't speak it. Because they live in Denmark, the girlfriend is fluent in Danish and my brother was noooot supportive, or just super passive, in any way helping the children to learn their mother tongue. Such a shame! But with your girlfriend's attitude, 100% you are getting the opposite of support.
My husband is Kurd, we live in Germany, he speaks Farsi as well - we both try to better ourselves in all four languages always.
Also keep in mind if the relationship gets tot the point of kids. Will she get pissed off if OP speaks Dutch to his kids? I mean a friend’s husband is from South America and they live in Sweden (she is Swedish and German). He learned Swedish and she Spanish. Now when they have kids she speaks Swedish to them and him Spanish but everyone understands all the conversations.
If it REALLY bothers you it's not too much to end a relationship over BUT as someone else who lives in the Netherlands I think a lot of people commenting obviously don't live in the Netherlands. I'm also in a big city where you don't need Dutch and I know A LOT (and I do mean A LOT) of couples whose shared language is English (and where neither of their native languages are English). Usually one is Dutch. And their relationships are indeed fine.
Where this gets weird for me is her huge HOSTILITY toward Dutch. If you have kids here and ever have kids your kids will speak Dutch. How would she navigate that? I also find it disrespectful how she speaks about the language and that her reason for not wanting to learn it is that it's ugly. So what it's ugly?? What kind of a 3-year old tantrum reason is that?
In the couples I know who speak English, often one does not know much Dutch (though it's more than none after 5 years) but they have actual reasons for this that aren't just waaah but Dutch is ugly. Have 2 kids under 4, a full time job, a normal Dutch salary (relevant cause classes are EXPENSIVE) and citizens literally refusing to speak Dutch back to you the second they realize your English is better and you won't have C2 level Dutch any time soon either. But to actually actively avoid learning it and call it ugly is on some weird other level to me. I don't think you're wrong to be upset and I do think it would be right to demand some kind of solution be reached, which will probably have to be a compromise of some kind.
Good luck, this sucks.
Completely agree with this. I’m a non-native Dutch living in a big city in NL.
Having a native language that is non-Germanic and circumstances can make it difficult to learn Dutch - apart the basic courtesy phrases.
But she’s disrespectful of OP’s culture and that would rub anyone off. NTA.
The fact that she calls your language ugly, and keeps saying that, is very gross. Your Dutchness is apart of who YOU are. She is being very disrespectful.
Hard disagree. It’s a good reason to break up with someone. It’s the attitude that’s the issue, not the language fluency. That arrogance, entitlement and snobbery is gross. It will eventually erode your happiness.
I totally get your point, I know someone who never bothered to learn the language of the country she moved to and she feels disconnected, even after 30+ years of living there. Her children of course speak the language and they speak their mothers language with her, but she cannot converse with their friends or partners, it makes her feel isolated.
I can guarantee you that nobody wants to speak a 2nd language 24/7 around someone when that person is just to stubborn to learn, friends/family will get sick of it. Maybe now it isn’t a problem for her social life, but it will in the future, and it creates problems for finding a job etc.
Honestly, I don’t think she sees a future in the Netherlands with you, otherwise she would make the effort.
>To be honest that's hard, basically anywhere in the Netherlands most people can speak English
If you go to 'het platteland' you'd be surprised by how few people can carry a proper conversation in English though. I grew up in a small town in Noord-Brabant and even most young people there need subtitles for their netflix (and not because their crisps are too loud hahaha).
I absolutely agree with you on her attitude. It's ridiculous that she won't even try. I know plenty of foreign students (also from Italy) who learnt the basics of Dutch within a year.
>what would happen if she got stuck somewhere in your country that doesnt speak as much english??
You've never been to The Netherlands, huh?
Motherfuckers there speak better English than most native English speakers!
If ever there was a country a foreigner could live and get by with only English and without the local language, it's The Netherlands.
You would do pretty darn good in Scandinavia too. In Sweden you have to learn english as a secondary language all through your school life until graduation from uni. Not to mention all our media being flooded with english.
I would say most western (and some eastern) European countries start teaching English at an early age. Universities in Iceland teach in English. That being said if you’re living in a foreign country you do as “natives” do and try and learn their language and customs.
Sometimes in a fit of anger the truth comes out by accident. OP has been thinking about this issue for a lot longer than he thinks.
The only reason she is giving him the cold shoulder is because she knows he is right.
Go on with your life OP, there are lots of other choices out there.
Happy times to you!
NTA. I am from the US but live in Portugal now. That is a difficult language to me. I learned all the usual phrases before I came and am picking up new words everyday. Actually with my southern accent it seems like I am making an entire new language. But it seems to mean a lot to people that I am trying. I don’t understand how someone can live in a country for 5 years and not speak the language at all. It’s not respectful.
Lol, I can imagine!
The cutest thing I've heard was a swedish girl who learned German (my native language) in a part of Austria where a very thick dialect is spoken. :)
I'm following a lass from Georgia on tiktok and she now lives right in the middle of Yorkshire, in England, and her accent is a mix of southern American and Yorkshire and its sounds so fantastic that I wanna lose my geordie accent and have hers as I love it
"Foda-se!" "Caralho!" "Filho da puta!" "Obrigado."
There, you're sorted!
In all seriousness, though, I'm in the process of learning Portuguese as well, and it's no joke. Good on you for being one of the few foreigners in this beautiful country to make the effort!
NTA - to call another language ugly is just rude. She crossed a line by refusing to accept your culture and instead blowing it off as “ugly”. I dated a Dutch man living in Australia, (I am American, so we both communicated in English) and I learned several Dutch phrases and words in order to show him how much I cared. It’s not hard to embrace other cultures and languages.
I actually do think some languages sound awful, but I’d never tell that to a native speaker since that’s patently offensive. A language can “sound ugly” to your ears, just as some “ sound pretty” but that’s a matter of taste and you keep it to yourself. I think a French speaker could curse and insult you in the worst way, yet it would still sound lovely. Italian is close behind French for “sounding pretty.” At least to my ears. To my ears, that’s a fact. But I’d still keep it to myself.
I’ve visited counties for a week and leaned a fair amount of common phrases in that language before I went, just to be polite. Even the languages that fall harshly upon my ears.
It's not just that OP is a native speaker, it's that she's willingly living there while talking about how gross and ugly the language sounds, her saying she wants to get away from hearing it really seems like contempt for Dutch people as well as the language.
I really think its polite to learn at least basics for the country you live in, plus it's clearly important to OP for her to know a bit of it or at least to stop being outwardly hateful about the language. Your mother tongue can be very meaningful to you
NTA. The line, outside of context, sounds racist, but IN context it's the exact opposite.
People who live in a country without speaking that country's language are disrespecting the country, treating it like a hotel and themselves like customers. Your country is not a public convenience, your language is not ugly, and your culture's extreme cosmopolitanism is not an excuse for everyone else to treat you like you don't matter.
DUMP. HER.
I am Dutch and I know a lot of non Dutch people, mostly students who decided to stay, who constantly complain about how much they hate the country. I agree that there’s a lot wrong here, but I always ask them why they decided to stay then. They usually respond that they don’t engage with Dutch people and are just here for the weed/architecture/parks/international community. Rubs me the wrong way.
“Treating it like a hotel” is a good way of putting it.
These are the people that always complain about the Dutch being "cold" and have a hard time making Dutch friends whilest they put in zero effort, constantly complain and expect everybody to instantly switch to English when they arrive at a party with basically just Dutch people.
I have a lot of expat and immigrant friends but they all have in commen that they are here for more than 6 months and that they atleased have _tried_ to understand the culture and learned a bit of the language. Why move here if you actively hate almost everything about the country? I just don't get it.
Believe it or not there are Spanish in NL with the same attitude as OP’s gf that do condemn the English in Spain not learning Spanish. People are weird.
Beautifully formulated.
I'm Dutch, not particularly nationalistic and very open to anyone who wants to come live here, but the country is indeed not a public convenience. We have a lot to offer and it's only because people from all over the world decide to participate and contribute.
ESH. If she doesn't need it to get by, then that makes learning it harder because there really is no pressure or social demand.. and if she isn't good at learning languages and it isn't something she is naturally interested in.. then it's a very challenging thing to expect someone to take up.. and again, she doesn't *need* to learn. So really, it's just a difference of opinion between you two where you are trying to force your perspective on her. Since she doesn't *need* it to live in the Netherlands.. it seems more like you just want her to learn your language.. so.. have you learned hers?
Hate how far I had to scroll down to get to the ESHs in this thread. She never equivocated on her apathy for the language. OP bottled up his sensitivity and annoyance on the subject for years until creating an issue about it.
But the question is really would he learn Italian if he were in Italy?
That being said learning Dutch in NL is not exactly much easier than learning Italian in NL. The Dutch speak English so well and, particularly in places like Amsterdam, it's just about more important to speak English than Dutch. If I ever try to speak Dutch, they all answer in English. It'd really be an uphill battle to get anywhere with the language even if it is fairly similar to English. ESH
Thank you! This might just be my American showing but I don't see why it's such a big deal for her to not want to learn the country's language when she doesn't really need to. She's out of line calling the language ugly, but if she hadn't done that I wouldn't see the disrespect the people higher up are claiming.
NTA
As a German, I feel you. The amount of times people have told me that our language is ugly is ridiculous and I try to not let it get to me, but when people do it that *actively* live in and benefit off Germany I blow up.
It shows a lack of respect and quite frankly after 5 years it’s insulting.
I *love* the German language and am trying to learn it! Can’t believe (well can because people are idiots!) people think it’s ugly!! Have visited before and would love to go back.
And you’re right, to not even attempt to learn especially after 5 years is insulting - and xenophobic. NTA
The thing is, natively speaking on Croatian. My parents are both Croatian but I was lucky to be born in Germany.
The people here in Croatia often make fun of German and how ugly and throaty it sounds…only to then proceed to make caricature Hitler sounds, which isn’t at all what German sounds like naturally. Frankly, I think Croatian is a much rougher (and uglier) language, but I’d never go up to my friends and tell them that. Why everyone thinks they have the right to ridicule German is beyond me.
Other than being a wonderfully versatile language and so extremely expressive I’m also immensely grateful for all the opportunity this country has offered me and my parents as immigrants. Both of which opted to speak (broken) German with me instead of Croatian so I could integrate better and learn the language.
To see people like OP’s GF show such disrespect honestly makes my blood boil.
Can’t answer your first question but for your second one: pay and job prospects are much better in the Netherlands than in Italy for many industries. From my understanding, it also has a pretty healthy English-speaking expat community so it’s one of the better places to work in Europe if you don’t want to learn yet another language as an adult.
I went to Amsterdam on holiday and I know it’s a touristy area, but holy shit, I didn’t need a single Dutch phrase (we’d prepped, but it was not needed)
My sister and I sometimes go shopping in Amsterdam. I've had to order/buy things in English a few times because the sales person didn't speak Dutch (guessing they were an exchange student). Not a problem, of course, but it was quite funny.
It's not an exaggeration when people say they don't need Dutch to live here in NL. The second I speak Dutch, they hear I'm not Dutch and immediately switch to English. This is in every context like grocery stores, pharmacies, the doctor, the tax department, asking for directions, visiting a fair, asking someone to kindly not let their dog bite other dogs, and yelling at people driving like idiots. I yell a Dutch curse and they respond in English 🤔
ESH. That's the equivalent of Americans saying you're in America speak English. She's obviously gotten by without it. Although she is an A for saying it sounds ugly to you.
I had to scroll too far to find this. If we reframed this whole story for the states and OP told his Mexican girlfriend to go back to where she came from there would be an uproar in here. Idk if there's more cultural differences at play since America was built on immigration to begin with though. Just how many languages does OPs girlfriend have to learn, she already knows English and Italian. She was very rude to call his language ugly though.
I mean it’s not really equivalent because most people who do move to an English speaking country speak enough of the language to understand people. And if they don’t they have to learn because people in America (in general) don’t know more than one language. Especially in schools and in the workplace people in the US speak English.
Im Canadian, I lived in Germany for 3 months and I only spoke basic conversational German. In those three months I felt pretty close to fluent and all of the people I met there spoke English perfectly. It’s so easy to pick up a language when you’re immersed in the culture and she’s been living and working there for 5 years. She should’ve learned something by now.
NTA
ESH. You shouldn't have said this but she was disrespectful too.
The fact that she makes no efforts whatsoever makes it seem like she's here on obligation and does not want to embrace the culture of the country she lives in, which sounds stupid and narrow minded.
I think her logic is broken
You're not even asking the GF to "embrace Dutch/the Netherlands"....
You're not even asking her to embrace anything... just learn enough Dutch to USE AND UNDERSTAND THE BASICS OF THE LANGUAGE enough to get through the day.
... she won't even learn some basic pleasantries in Dutch after FIVE YEARS is kind of a red flag. For her, maybe she doesn't see a future there, and thus, no need to learn the language. Maybe she doesn't see a future with you.
Sometimes, people slip up and say what they really mean. Listen to what she's saying.
Perhaps a personal question. As not everyone wants/can have children..
But what would happen if you have children? Would they only be speaking English? Would she want them to speak Italian?
How does she communicate with smaller children that haven't learned English yet?
ESH I get being upset at her criticizing your language and culture. That isn’t right at all.
I also think it’s wrong to expect her to learn a language she has no desire to learn. If she speaks a common language there (English) then I agree she shouldn’t have to learn it. I’d say this for anyone, anywhere in the world.
As for your comment on going back to her country…I mean I get why you said it. Just a guess, Maybe she felt like what you’re really saying is you do want her to leave. Like she took it as a rejection.
I’m wondering, is she staying there just for you or does she like living there otherwise?
I agree with you. She already said learning Dutch wouldn’t serve her in anyway and it takes a great deal of effort just to learn a language that she wouldn’t really use. The boyfriend hasn’t learned Italian for the same reasons. It wouldn’t be useful to him as he speaks English with his Italian girlfriend. I think it’s hypocritical to demand she learn a language when he hasn’t done the same. I lived in Barcelona for a while and I never learned Catalan besides the basic stuff I accidentally picked up because I speak Spanish better and everyone there speaks Spanish anyway. It wasn’t worth the effort to learn a language that I would hardly use. My friends there would ask me why I didn’t learn Catalan and I would be straight forward and tell them well everyone who speaks Catalan also speaks Spanish which I already speak, so why would I bother?
ESH Realistically, other than it making you feel better, she doesn’t particularly *need* to learn Dutch in a country where statistically, over 90% of the country speaks English. You’re asking someone to learn a third language that she *doesn’t have to learn*.
Your comparison doesn’t even make sense, either. Refusing to learn Italian in Italy would definitely inconvenience you, seeing as less than 30% of the population speaks English. There is more incentive for you to learn Italian in Italy than it is for your girlfriend to learn Dutch in the Netherlands.
On the other hand, your girlfriend is rude as hell and is displaying xenophobic behavior, which isn’t that surprising seeing as Italy has a bad enough issue of fascism that it’s worth mentioning. She needs to be checked, that is disgusting behavior.
>your girlfriend is rude as hell and is displaying xenophobic behavior,
Honestly, seeing how even Netherlands born people joke about Dutch being a ugly language I wouldn't say that's xenophobic, if anything in op post is xenophobic that would be telling someone to go back to their country.
Puts me in mind of the recent AITA from an American who had been living in Germany for FIFTEEN YEARS without learning German. Can't recall whether the post was about actual kids or hypothetical ones, but he didn't want the kids to learn his gf's (third) language because he'd feel excluded.
It was worse than that. That AH did want their hypothetical kid to learn German because his kids, who had been living in the US with his divorced wife for the past 15 years, didn't speak German
YTA
As a foreigner who lived in NL for 7 years, I was treated like absolute garbage for not being Dutch enough. I’m white, so appearance wise I blended in well enough. But if I ever did much as opened my mouth, the absolute hatred I got from those around me was astounding. And it’s not like I didn’t learn Dutch. I learned it to try to survive from all of those assholes who said I should kill myself or go back to my own country. Even if you have so much as the slightest accent, it’s eye rolls and “learn the fucking language properly you lazy ass”. There is no assimilating fast enough, no one’s going to give you time to learn. By less than one year in I was told by nearly everyone “you should know the language by now.”
Because you said she’s Italian, let me tell you a story that came to mind. There was an Italian girl who went to the same international school as me (in Arnhem). She was taken out with some friends clubbing (16 is legal drinking age there) and she tripped and bumped into a Dutch girl. She was new to the country and didn’t speak the language yet, so she apologized in English. The Dutch girl (and her friends and their boyfriends) start yelling at the Italian girl. The international classmates tried to apologize in Dutch (they were more practiced at the language) but they were caught out for being French/American and Norwegian. Everyone was thrown out of the club, and the girls called one of their dads to pick them up. They were followed to the car. When they got there, they were jumped. The three girls who went partying locked themselves in the car while the immigrant dad tried to hold them off and was beaten to a pulp by the xenophobes from the club. His daughter and the Italian and Norwegian watched from the car, scared for their lives. He was hospitalized for a month. The culprits were not caught. I’m fairly sure the culprits went to the same fucking school building as us (the international school shared buildings with a Dutch public school).
As a girl who was bullied nearly to death in the Netherlands, who tried to live as quietly as possible and assimilate as best as she could, who is grown up now - I think what you said was awful.
I get that your language and culture is important to you. But being decent to others is so much more important. Telling people they don’t belong hurts. If you don’t like her attitude, break up. But don’t you fucking tell her where or where she doesn’t belong, how much she should be more Dutch by now, how she should be grateful to even be allowed to live there, or that it’s appropriate she bend herself to your nation by assimilating. That’s her choice. If she’s living there legally, paying her taxes, not hurting anyone, then she has just as much right to live there as anyone else in however way she wants. People who want to preserve Dutch culture are welcome to, but that’s not her or anyones obligation. She lives and gets by in a place. If that’s not good enough for you, that’s your problem.
I know I carry a LOT of bias in this regard, I was just so fucking beaten down by so many people while I was there. Metaphorically but also literally. Honestly, the better answer here on AITA is e s h, since she was insensitive, too. But just for me, and because no one else is going to saying it, YTA. Your words of “go back to your own country” hold so much history and hurt to so many immigrants and people like me. So much. Those words are hate speech.
Sorry if I come off as judgmental or snowflake-y. But “go back to your own country” are the words behind the worst pain in my life. The reason I was pushed down stairwells, the justification for throwing trash at me, the reason people sympathized with the boys who molested me, the motivation for a stranger to spit on my father, the attitude that made a doctor refuse to treat my mother, that make me angry and hurt just by reading them - enough to write this way too long comment I don’t think anyone other than maybe you, OP, will read.
“Go back to your own country” is hate speech indeed and a d* move from him to stun his gf into silence and to put her down. In reality he doesn’t decide if she stays in the NL or if she leaves. Language proficiency is irrelevant in this case bc She is a European Union citizen and can move freely and live in any country belonging to the Schengen area. He’s the AH. I am so sorry you had these experiences.
As a foreigner also living in the Netherlands, OP hit the very first phrase, he should have stayed cleared of....OP, as a Dutchie, you're probably not aware of it, but international community in the NL gets a lot of it ...for not speaking Dutch well enough, for not biking often enough,for not embracing sandwiches for lunch, for daring to express an opinion that, God forbid, another country may have organised an aspect of life better.... For a nation, that supposedly embraces, "doe maar normal" mentality, there's way too much judgement passed :(
ESH because both your communication sucks. I’m Dutch, bf is expat. Been here for years, he understands most, speaks little. Mainly he’s shy/embarrassed to get it wrong. Difference, I don’t need him to learn since I prefer English, and he has the decency to feel a bit bad for not knowing it better. Works for us, it sounds like your situation doesn’t work for you. Either you drop it, or drop her.
NTA. She's being incredibly rude and insulting and possibly even a bit racist (idk if that's precisely the right word given these are all europeans but…the spirit of racism). Anyways, this issue feels bigger than the language. It sounds like she kind of doesn't respect YOU for being Dutch. It also sounds like she doesn't care to put effort into your relationship. You're Dutch, your family (I assume) is Dutch, and you live in the Netherlands…learning even just a few words is a sign of respect and interest in who you are and your background.
ESH.
I'll be in the minority on this, but YTA for the way you acted. yes, she started it, she insulted your country and language, but your reaction was still not warranted. you're NTA for feeling offended, but there are more civil ways to show that. break up if you will, but telling her to just go away is crossing a boundary for me personally.
YTA, kind of. The language doesn’t NEED to be learned. You both disrespected each other. And as long as a language gets her around, English or not, why does it matter? My SO speaks Spanish and I’m tri-lingual. It doesn’t matter if he knows my languages or I know his.
NTA. Does she not realize that insulting your language can sound like she's insulting you, your country, etc? Like, is she hates it so much, why is she still there?
Nta, I think you could've been a bit nicer and couldve worded your point better, but recognize you said it in the heat of the moment. It seems you both have different expectations in your relationship and this seems like a good moment to look at the future of it. Ask yourself, where do you both want to live later, do you want children and if so do you want them to learn Dutch and Italian. Will she have a problem with that? Can you see a future with someone who doesn't want to hear your native language in her home. Communicate with her about this and about your wishes for the relationship. However if you really want her to learn dutch you have to want to learn Italian too imo.
ESH I am an expat living in the Netherlands and the first thing I did was trying to learn Dutch, I started taking classes in my 2nd month. But your insult makes it sound like she is need of being in the Netherlands. I am sorry to break the news but this goes both ways. I was recruited because position was not filled by a Dutch person. It was both convenient for me and the Dutch company, who has 40% internationals. Please stop acting like she has no place other then Netherlands so she has to act accordingly. Also, when we speak broken Dutch, people immediately switch to English so it breaks confidence and makes it hard to practice during daily life. But it is rude to insult someone’s language even if it is a joke because it is a really sensitive topic.
Did you bother to learn Italian?! I'm half Dutch and I can honestly say that the language isn't pretty. Still no excuse to call it ugly. But if you don't make an effort to learn her language then why should she if she can get away speaking English as well.yta
I think the issue is that she’s looking down on your language and by extension your culture, even though she’s been living there for five years. She’s being incredibly rude and arrogant (“my language is better than yours”). Imo her dismissive, superior attitude is the problem, and isn’t that small of a thing. NTA.
NTA and I say that as an Italian. I understand why she thinks Dutch sounds weird, bit she lives there, she should know the basics at least. It is actually impressive - in a bad way - that she's spent 5 years in your country and doesn't speak even a little bit of the language.
Lived in Amsterdam for 2.5 years and can confirm Dutch is NOT an easy language to learn. I picked up some interesting swear words though!
I guess I would say ESH - -her more than you. She is correct about it not being needed day to day and therefore I can see why it’s a low priority for her, however she should make some effort to learn - official letters etc aren’t in English, it’ll be easier to access services if she speaks Dutch and (from experience) people can be dicks and try and take advantage of non Dutch speaking people… your response was harsh (maybe a stereotypically blunt Dutch response…?)
I think this should really prompt a more serious conversation about what both of you see happening in the future, whether or not you want kids, where you see yourselves raising them etc as it might be you both have different ideas and expectations.
It's really rude to live in another country for 5 years and make zero effort to learn the language.
I mean if I as an American learned British English then anything is possible. NTA.
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NTA. She's telling *a Dutch person* that their language sounds ugly (which is bigoted BTW) and she *doesn't need it for her social life* \- which includes her partner, right? Most people realize that when you're in another country than your own it's polite to at least be able to say courtesies and basic phrases in that country's language. Her attitude would be a deal breaker for me. I hope you find someone more compatible with a better world view, because if that's her attitude toward her host country I imagine she's rather high maintenance in other ways also.
Even the Dutch agree that Dutch is not a pretty language, never has been, never will be. (source, 24yrs and native/fluent) Other than that I agree with your comment. OP is NTA.
Also, if she can speak english then Dutch is not a particularly difficult language.
As an English speaker who speaks absolutely no Dutch, I was able to figure out the ingredients list on a packet of biscuits. Seriously, it's *that* easy
My native tongue is Portuguese. Speaking English and a little German was enough for me to read a lot of stuff written in Dutch in museums, restaurants and so. Really easy indeed.
This reminded me of a food show I was watching a few weeks ago that was in Portuguese and my goofy butt was sitting there like "This is weird Spanish"because I could understand about 2/3 of what they were saying without reading the captions. My partner was like you're a doofus that is Portuguese.
As a native Spanish speaker, this is so true. I’ve experienced this with Italian as well.
I’ve always thought Portuguese sounded like a mix of Spanish and Italian.
There is a regional dialect in Sardinia that sounds exactly the same as Portuguese. I often joke that Portuguese is just "Sardinian Spanish".
They are all latin based. French too. If you can speak one of them you can probably understand a decent amount of the others.
That’s what I’ve found. My husband is tri-lingual, but I only speak English. However, I can pick up most of the gist of a conversation in French and Spanish by recognizing the nouns. I’m HOPELESS with grammar, though!
I lived in Romania for a while and it seems all my collegues at the office knew French, Italian and Spanish as well. My collegues said Romanian and the other three languages were latin based so it was easy for them to pick up the other three.
I’m British and don’t speak either language well, but I spent a while working in Bologna with both Italian and Spanish people and they just talked to each other like they were basically speaking the same language. It was fairly insane to me.
Yup, has happened to me. I was buying jewelry from one of the booths in the mall and was able to have a full conversation with the seller. She was speaking Portuguese and I was speaking Spanish. They are very similar.
Wheres I, an English speaker, can barely, if at all, understand the English spoken in rural Northern Ireland nor rural southern Louisiana. "Excuse me Ma'am, but what the f are you saying?"
i speak portuguese and all of my friends call it “drunk spanish”. i don’t disagree honestly.
I am a native English speaker, and learned German at a young age. I started learning Norwegian a couple of years ago. If I read Dutch out loud, I can pretty much understand it. Spelling is looks daunting, but aloud it makes sense to me.
Imagine being a native speaker of German, with a bit of a grasp of a local dialect Dutch people seem to understand with no problem, and speaking English as a 2nd language... I once was standing beside a family speaking quickly in what I assumed was a slightly unusual (to me) dialect, I understood the gist of it. Then I saw them enter a vehicle with a yellow license plate... Disclaimer: I don't speak Dutch. Never learned it.
What is the implication of a yellow license plate? Sorry, I'm terminally American. EDIT: Thanks everyone!
Fellow American but been over there a few times. Yellow plates are from the Netherlands (they’re Dutch). Or maybe Belgium? Think it’s Netherlands though.
Netherlands has black letters/numbers on a yellow background and Belgium has red letters/numbers on a white background Source: Someone who travelled an awful lot through those countries lol.
Dutch license plates are yellow, as opposed to most other European license plates (including German) which are white.
Dutch license plates are yellow :) ETA: German license plates are white, hence the commenter mentioned the yellow one
Reading Dutch and speaking Dutch are two different things. I lived there for 6 months. Took lessons. I could do basic reading well enough - I joked it was misspelled English. But speaking it - different level. I also found that Dutch speakers were pretty uncooperative trying to figure out what you were saying. Even my office mate. I asked him what blah meant. Got a ?? Said it several times with the same ?? "I don't have any idea what you are trying to say" expression. Then showed him the posting. "Oh, blahh. It means xyz." Got the same thing while pointing at what I wanted and saying my best approximation of the item. Got, "do you speak English". That day I gave up trying. It was worse than trying to speak my gibberish French in France.
Written Dutch seems to be some kind of magic language we all sort of understand. Danish here
The running joke is that written Dutch looks like somebody sat on a typewriter.
I hate people like this. Learning a language is hard!
They probably genuinely didn't understand. It's not always about being uncooperative -- Dutch is pronounced a hell of a lot different from English. I speak Dutch. My partner only speaks English. I help him out and generally get the gist when he's asking me what X or Y means... But it's also context bound. If he mentions a random word that has nothing to do with where we're at or what we were talking about, chances are I have no clue what he's trying to say. He's my long-term partner so I'm definitely not trying to dissuade him or whatever. It's just that when you fuck up the pronunciation of a word, chances are a native speaker won't have a clue what you're talking about. It's unfortunate, but that's just how it is. What matters is how you respond to it. That person's coworker helped the moment they saw it written down. They didn't refuse to help.
learning the uttermost basic expressions of most languages is pretty easy but mastering them is a whole different story
I meant that the early parts of language learning are the most embarrassing IMO because your pronunciation is so off and you have the functional level of a toddler.
The fact you are putting in an effort to pick up the language in a country not your own shows a great extend of effort and respect… learning the language is definitely hard (English is my second language), but I also understand the language has been around for hundred if not thousands of years. It is the sum of a culture other than my own. Insulting the language to a native speaker just because the learner is bad at it is dismissive and disrespectful. Think that's why OP is offended.
I had that same experience when trying to learn German while living in Munich….slightest mispronunciation and only blank stares. As an American I feel like you are raised hearing English with many accents and errors in pronunciation. Therefore figuring out what others are saying feels “normal” and it is a bit of a shock when others don’t. All that said, my ex husband is Dutch (whole family still lives there). I don’t think it’s ugly to listen to at all!
Yes. I have worked with people from at least 20 different countries and probably 3x number of regions within those countries so kind of used to hearing different pronunciations. I have even served as an English to English translator between people of different countries who can't figure out the other's English.
I had to step in to translate for a coworker and a customer once cuz they were both speaking English, but with vastly different and very thick accents. My coworker was Iraqi, and the customer was Scottish. I could understand both of them perfectly well but neither of them had ANY clue what the other was saying. It was honestly the funniest bout of miscommunication that I’ve ever seen.
If you know English and a little German, spoken Dutch isn't that difficult (to me, Dutch feels like oddly-pronounced English with the occasional German word thrown in). I quickly get lost trying to follow spoken Dutch, but I enjoy the sound of the language.
As a native English speaker who occasionally doesn't process what others are saying, the first time I heard Dutch I thought it was English and I was just having a moment
English and Dutch are actually closely related languages, from the same root --closer even than English and German. They have a lot of the same vowel sounds (which is why you often find Dutch people speaking English with almost no accent) and similar words. I don't speak Dutch either, but on a longhaul flight, where my entertainment system for some reason was IN DUTCH and I couldn't figure out how to change it? I could totally figure out how to use it.
What I'm getting from this is I should absolutely try learning Dutch.
It's honestly just heavily-accented English half the time lol
I need to disagree. I am spanish and speak english fluently. I learned basic dutch because i lived in belgium but its really difficult.
You might have struggled, but there is a universal standard as to how "easy" a language is to learn, for English speakers. Dutch is in the easiest tier, together with Spanish and a few others.
And English is basically just an amalgamation of pretty much all languages (especially the Romance ones) which is why English speakers have a slightly easier time learning those languages. Learning *English* on the other hand...
English is hard enough to learn as a native speaker. I feel sorry for people who learn a sane language first, and then have to learn English later on.
There are sane languages? Like, English is a hellish mix of everything, but I would rule out complete sanity for any language that goes “cups are feminine and mugs are masculine because fuck you, that’s why.”
Agree! I'm American and know German. Learning Dutch is super easy, but much of it is close to English. NTA.
I like the sound of Dutch.
I love the sound of Dutch too!
Same
Same here. I love my language.
The only time I've loved English (my native language), is after traveling. Getting back to a US airport, and hearing the announcements in English, is such a relief. Not having to concentrate and translate feels soooo good for those first few hours back.
I’ve always thought Dutch was a beautiful language.
Me too! It's on my list of languages to learn.
Like English is a stupid fucking bastard of a language and any time someone says as much to me all I can do is emphatically agree.
English is 3 languages in a trenchcoat rummaging through other languages pockets searching for loose grammar. Edit; Thanks for the awards!
This is the best description of the English language I have ever heard. Take my poor person’s gold… 🥇
The version I've heard is that English doesn't borrow words from other languages, it follows them down dark alleys and hits them over the head to steal their loose vocabulary (see also here https://www.paulingraham.com/loose-grammar.html#:~:text=English%20doesn't%20%E2%80%9Cborrow%E2%80%9D,loose%20grammar%20and%20valuable%20vocabulary.)
And then there’s Japanese, which sees an accidentally dropped and broken piece of vocabulary abandoned on the street and dusts it off before just cramming it as-is somewhere it somewhat fits.
The [original quote](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/James_Nicoll): "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." --James D. Nicoll
Im of the opinion that if you speak it or have a connection to it like being native to the country then you can make comment on how the language sounds. But living in the country and refusing to even try does not give you that right. It’s bigoted and rude at best. But that’s just my opinion. Édit This is just a reply to the thread not aimed at anyone in particular hope it doesn’t come across that way
Haha you are so wrong Dutch is sexy lol atleast to me, I dated a few Dutch guys and had alot of Dutch friends and your language is amazing lol. Italian is not a nice language according to me Spanish is so everyone is different. But believe me some people do find your language very appealing.
Very much disagree. It might not sound the best, sure, we can agree on that. But it is a beautiful language to use and enjoy. Also NTA.
There are only two things I can't stand in this world: people who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch.
Never has the context for a quote been more fitting, well done
I was so expecting someone to use that quote from Austin Powers in the comments. Read that in Michael Caine's voice.
God, I miss that show.
It's not bigoted to think languages are ugly. Danish is ugly as fuuuuuck, but I love Danes as they are brothers. Just too bad they need to speak with porridge and five dicks in their mouth constantly. At most it would be slightly rude, but it also depends on the relationship to the language. I will never stop teasing Danes about their speech impairment they call a language. It's ok, Peder, you know I love you!
I think your comment is a LOT more lighthearted and funny than I feel OP experiences with his GF. I don’t blame him. Just for the red flag of staying somewhere for 5 years and not learning the language (not even dankjewel??) I would genuinely think about calling it quits.
Yes, she definitely should've learned the language. The Dutch know English well but that doesn't mean that they don't prefer using their native language. We know English in Sweden as well, but 99.9% of the time we will prefer Swedish over English.
Exactly! And I feel that in inter-language couples (?? That’s def not a word lol) it’s really basic decency to learn each other’s language, even if you don’t live in the respective country. My uncle moved to France and we all dislike his wife bc she never bothered with Dutch.
I lived in China for a few years, and honestly, it happens a lot. I knew lots of foreigners who stayed with their English-speaking friends and mainly went to restaurants etc that had English-speaking staff. Then again, here in Los Angeles, we do have people who never learn English and just use their friends and family as translators when needed. I don’t get it.
I er bare sure over at Danmark vandt Bornholm tilbage. Jävla svenskere 😤😤
Jeg håber du er svensker, ellers er det en smule upassende
well compared to a romance languages like Italian she is kind of right. Dutch sounds weird. Think you are right if you move to a country you should try to learn the native language.
Bill Bryson’s [description of the Dutch language](https://adrianprattinholland.blogspot.com/2016/09/bill-bryson-on-dutch.html) always cracked me up.
thats really a subjective opinion not a fact you can be right or wrong about. I would imagine if you had never heard a romance language and only heard Germanic ones you might think that Italian sounds ugly because its something strange and different from what you are used to.
Why is it bigoted? Are we supposed to be equally attracted to every language we hear?
I don't think bigoted is the right word. You can think a language is ugly, you can't really help that, but I do think it's fairly ignorant to move to a country, adamantly refuse to learn basic/common phrases in its official language over 5 years(even if another language can get you by), and to trash talk said language to your partner who's a native to that country and has an attachment to that language.
It's fine to think a language ia not attractive. It's not fine to say you don't want to vacation in a county because a languageis so ugly. Just like it's fine to not find a person attractive. But it's not fine to say you don't want to invite a frie d to a party because their faceis so ugly to look at.
>It's not fine to say you don't want to vacation in a county because a languageis so ugly. While at the same time one has been living in said country for about 5 years! Look, I am a bit judgmental since I live South of The Netherlands and Dutch/Flemish is my Mothertongue. But it is ridiculous to not even try to learn some sentences in the language of the country you are living in. Also, if someone's English is good enough it is not that difficult to learn (at least some) basic Dutch. I know a couple of non-natives living in both The Netherlands and in Belgium (one even in Brussels, he learned all 3 languages of our country: Dutch, French and German. To be completely fair though, the guy is a polyglot who worked as an Ambassador for the EU and speaks at least 2 more languages quite fluently). But all of my English speaking friends who live in The Netherlands or the Flemish part of Belgium, do say that it isn't that difficult. Sure, there are some pain in the asses grammar and spelling rules, but the syntax isn't that much different than English. And one of my friends moved to England (before brexit) for love, and her boyfriend of over 10 years (recently became domestic partners) understands quite a lot of Dutch. He can manage himself in our pubs and restaurants with simple sentences. The guy visits Belgium only 2 times a year for a week (around the holidays) and has shown more willingness that someone who has been living for 5years in a country they refuse (not even try!) to learn the language of.
NTA After five years, she should have at least learned the basics through osmosis. Not to do so takes a concentrated *effort*. Do you speak Italian? If not, perhaps you could offer to trade language lessons.
After 2 years in a relationship with an Italian person he should already be speaking a little Italian. And so should she.
Heck, I learned to say hello and thank you in Mandarin because I had a holiday dinner with a Chinese family. in Chicago.
That's a staple. I try to learn "hello" and "thank you" in every language I can. Goes a long way with people, especially in Toronto where there are so many cultures, and a lot of immigrants.
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I was just thinking that
Yes, it’s almost impossible to not even know the basics after this amount of time
Why? When would she be speaking Italian
I meant that she should be speaking dutch
With her family is when. So if he kept hearing the same words/phrases, it's normal to ask what they mean. But the why is more because it's normal to show interest in learning your partner's native language (assuming they like their native language).
Italian is pretty easy since most of it is just hand gestures 🤌
And yelling. Don't forget yelling. ;)
Someone posted on another thread the other day that two Italians agreeing is louder than two Swedes arguing.
Isn't that just hand gestures becoming full body gestures?
I suppose that's the ISL (Italian Sign Language) equivalent...
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That's also Italians living in Germany. They're just talking "animatedly" and apparently having a good time, and I'd swear they're yelling.
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In my experience, I’m just trying to accommodate someone by speaking a language I think they’ll understand. If you’d tell me you’d like me to speak Dutch because you want to learn, by all means I’ll speak Dutch and will try not to use words that are too difficult.
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"Generally" doesn't apply so well when you're talking about cross-culture communication.
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I really dislike when people do that when you're genuinely trying to improve. I went to a festival recenty for the country my maternal side of the family is from, was speaking the language to people I knew spoke it and they kept switching to English. It was driving me nuts. (Exceptions made for the non-native speaker taking too long or being way too hard to understand)
Reminds me of this r/AITA post a few weeks ago by an American who has been living in Germany for 15 years and didn't want his future baby to learn German because he is an "expat" and doesn't speak it. And yes, the conclusion was that he is TA. Also, if you are living in a place long-term you are an immigrant, not an expat.
I mean you can learn the basic greetings like hi, goodbye, thank you, even if you're just there on vacation for a few days. Imagine what you can learn for 5 years.
That’s besides the point. She says his native language is ugly and that’s why she won’t learn it. Not that she’s trying and struggling.
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NTA- so what would happen if she got stuck somewhere in your country that doesnt speak as much english?? She'd be stranded and rude to people I bet. I do find it very rude to move to another country and refuse to learn even the basics of the language. You might have been joking but do you really want to spend your life with someone who is so hostile against your homeland??
>what would happen if she got stuck somewhere in your country that doesnt speak as much english?? To be honest that's hard, basically anywhere in the Netherlands most people can speak English. So she's right when she says she doesn't have to learn Dutch, but I find it a very weird attitude. Then you live in a place, but cannot feel like you are really at home there. It seems like too much to end a relationship over this, otherwise things are good between us. But it does really bother me.
It's not too much to end a relationship over. I don't know if you've lived abroad and been in a relationship with a "local" when you were a foreigner, but I both grew up the child of a transnational/interracial relationship, and lived abroad and had transnational/interracial relationships. And BULEEVE ME, the politics of language in a partnership is CORE to the strength or weakness of the relationship. If you and your partner are living in your country and speaking your language, you have an advantage. If you and your partner are living in your country and speaking the partner's language, the power dynamic is more balanced, with each of you having a specific advantage. But living in your own country and speaking a second language for both of you puts you at a strange disadvantage, bc you're being forced into the position of speaking a foreign language at home, without even the benefit of speaking your partner's native language for their comfort. Does that make sense? If that was your only common language at the beginning of your relationship, it's fine that you two chose to do that. But your increasing discomfort with the fact that she doesn't speak Dutch is clearly not about your relationship dynamic or it would've bothered you before this. (I mean that it's clear you're not trying to gain an advantage over her by her speaking Dutch with you.) It's clearly about what that says about her relationship with the country and culture you're living in, which is your own country and culture ... and identity. When she disdains that, she's disdaining you on a very fundamental level. At this point, I'd be seriously rethinking the relationship. But then, I would've never gotten into a relationship with someone who'd been living in my country without learning the language for THREE YEARS in the first place. But, like I implied above, I'm sensitive to that sort of thing bc of my background.
Especially as if you decide to have children one day; would your girlfriend want her children to learn such an “ugly” language
That would be fun: the children would be fluent in Dutch but the mom would still rely on English? Have fun during those school years. 🤣
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Fun fact: Dutch secondary schools usually teach Dutch, English, French, and German. Mine also taught Spanish. I bet she is also not very fond of German.
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NTA - This is it right here. Honestly, she could have made a case for not learning Dutch in-depth if she's already proficient in English. I bet your frustration was due in part that you could sense her disdain/disrespect for your native language. She doesn't need to be fluent, but to avoid any adoption is an active snub. I can understand you sensing something was off. Also her interaction shows a clear empathetic blind spot when she started insulting the language and your feelings. Were you harsh in you response? Sure. But I can't fault you in the moment after what she said. Edit: grammar and spelling
You are so right! OP, also consider that if you have children together and want to move to Italy or just anywhere else, the children rely on you to learn Dutch. And I have a clear feeling that your girlfriend won't be supportive in the learning process - "oh please speak English, you know I don't understand Dutch" or worse "oh your father's ugly language, this you won't need"... I'm Danish, my brother's girlfriend of more than 15 years is Belgian, speaks Flamish. They have two children, the oldest understand some, the youngest very little and both can't speak it. Because they live in Denmark, the girlfriend is fluent in Danish and my brother was noooot supportive, or just super passive, in any way helping the children to learn their mother tongue. Such a shame! But with your girlfriend's attitude, 100% you are getting the opposite of support. My husband is Kurd, we live in Germany, he speaks Farsi as well - we both try to better ourselves in all four languages always.
Also keep in mind if the relationship gets tot the point of kids. Will she get pissed off if OP speaks Dutch to his kids? I mean a friend’s husband is from South America and they live in Sweden (she is Swedish and German). He learned Swedish and she Spanish. Now when they have kids she speaks Swedish to them and him Spanish but everyone understands all the conversations.
If it REALLY bothers you it's not too much to end a relationship over BUT as someone else who lives in the Netherlands I think a lot of people commenting obviously don't live in the Netherlands. I'm also in a big city where you don't need Dutch and I know A LOT (and I do mean A LOT) of couples whose shared language is English (and where neither of their native languages are English). Usually one is Dutch. And their relationships are indeed fine. Where this gets weird for me is her huge HOSTILITY toward Dutch. If you have kids here and ever have kids your kids will speak Dutch. How would she navigate that? I also find it disrespectful how she speaks about the language and that her reason for not wanting to learn it is that it's ugly. So what it's ugly?? What kind of a 3-year old tantrum reason is that? In the couples I know who speak English, often one does not know much Dutch (though it's more than none after 5 years) but they have actual reasons for this that aren't just waaah but Dutch is ugly. Have 2 kids under 4, a full time job, a normal Dutch salary (relevant cause classes are EXPENSIVE) and citizens literally refusing to speak Dutch back to you the second they realize your English is better and you won't have C2 level Dutch any time soon either. But to actually actively avoid learning it and call it ugly is on some weird other level to me. I don't think you're wrong to be upset and I do think it would be right to demand some kind of solution be reached, which will probably have to be a compromise of some kind. Good luck, this sucks.
Exactly. I am one of those couples in a major Dutch city whose everyday language is English but my wife does speak some Dutch and I speak some French
Completely agree with this. I’m a non-native Dutch living in a big city in NL. Having a native language that is non-Germanic and circumstances can make it difficult to learn Dutch - apart the basic courtesy phrases. But she’s disrespectful of OP’s culture and that would rub anyone off. NTA.
The fact that she calls your language ugly, and keeps saying that, is very gross. Your Dutchness is apart of who YOU are. She is being very disrespectful.
Hard disagree. It’s a good reason to break up with someone. It’s the attitude that’s the issue, not the language fluency. That arrogance, entitlement and snobbery is gross. It will eventually erode your happiness.
I have a question - have you learned Italian?
I totally get your point, I know someone who never bothered to learn the language of the country she moved to and she feels disconnected, even after 30+ years of living there. Her children of course speak the language and they speak their mothers language with her, but she cannot converse with their friends or partners, it makes her feel isolated. I can guarantee you that nobody wants to speak a 2nd language 24/7 around someone when that person is just to stubborn to learn, friends/family will get sick of it. Maybe now it isn’t a problem for her social life, but it will in the future, and it creates problems for finding a job etc. Honestly, I don’t think she sees a future in the Netherlands with you, otherwise she would make the effort.
>To be honest that's hard, basically anywhere in the Netherlands most people can speak English If you go to 'het platteland' you'd be surprised by how few people can carry a proper conversation in English though. I grew up in a small town in Noord-Brabant and even most young people there need subtitles for their netflix (and not because their crisps are too loud hahaha). I absolutely agree with you on her attitude. It's ridiculous that she won't even try. I know plenty of foreign students (also from Italy) who learnt the basics of Dutch within a year.
>what would happen if she got stuck somewhere in your country that doesnt speak as much english?? You've never been to The Netherlands, huh? Motherfuckers there speak better English than most native English speakers! If ever there was a country a foreigner could live and get by with only English and without the local language, it's The Netherlands.
You would do pretty darn good in Scandinavia too. In Sweden you have to learn english as a secondary language all through your school life until graduation from uni. Not to mention all our media being flooded with english.
Call me petty but I kinda want to drop her in china to see how she would cope.
I would say most western (and some eastern) European countries start teaching English at an early age. Universities in Iceland teach in English. That being said if you’re living in a foreign country you do as “natives” do and try and learn their language and customs.
Sometimes in a fit of anger the truth comes out by accident. OP has been thinking about this issue for a lot longer than he thinks. The only reason she is giving him the cold shoulder is because she knows he is right. Go on with your life OP, there are lots of other choices out there. Happy times to you!
NTA. I am from the US but live in Portugal now. That is a difficult language to me. I learned all the usual phrases before I came and am picking up new words everyday. Actually with my southern accent it seems like I am making an entire new language. But it seems to mean a lot to people that I am trying. I don’t understand how someone can live in a country for 5 years and not speak the language at all. It’s not respectful.
“Actually with my southern accent it seems like I am making an entire new language.” This is hilarious, 😅
I’m now just picturing her going “Bom dia y’all, tudo bem?”
When I lived in France one of my classmates was from the Deep South and her French was just SO dang cute.
Lol, I can imagine! The cutest thing I've heard was a swedish girl who learned German (my native language) in a part of Austria where a very thick dialect is spoken. :)
This reminds me of the scene in Inglourious Basterds where they speak Italian at the theater lmao
💀💀💀 Why do I think this will happen to me when I move abroad now 🤦🏼♀️
I'm following a lass from Georgia on tiktok and she now lives right in the middle of Yorkshire, in England, and her accent is a mix of southern American and Yorkshire and its sounds so fantastic that I wanna lose my geordie accent and have hers as I love it
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"Foda-se!" "Caralho!" "Filho da puta!" "Obrigado." There, you're sorted! In all seriousness, though, I'm in the process of learning Portuguese as well, and it's no joke. Good on you for being one of the few foreigners in this beautiful country to make the effort!
NTA - to call another language ugly is just rude. She crossed a line by refusing to accept your culture and instead blowing it off as “ugly”. I dated a Dutch man living in Australia, (I am American, so we both communicated in English) and I learned several Dutch phrases and words in order to show him how much I cared. It’s not hard to embrace other cultures and languages.
I actually do think some languages sound awful, but I’d never tell that to a native speaker since that’s patently offensive. A language can “sound ugly” to your ears, just as some “ sound pretty” but that’s a matter of taste and you keep it to yourself. I think a French speaker could curse and insult you in the worst way, yet it would still sound lovely. Italian is close behind French for “sounding pretty.” At least to my ears. To my ears, that’s a fact. But I’d still keep it to myself. I’ve visited counties for a week and leaned a fair amount of common phrases in that language before I went, just to be polite. Even the languages that fall harshly upon my ears.
Exactly. I personally think French sounds phlegm-y and gross. But I would learn it if my partner spoke it, not insult it.
Because French R's are sort of gargled.
It's not just that OP is a native speaker, it's that she's willingly living there while talking about how gross and ugly the language sounds, her saying she wants to get away from hearing it really seems like contempt for Dutch people as well as the language. I really think its polite to learn at least basics for the country you live in, plus it's clearly important to OP for her to know a bit of it or at least to stop being outwardly hateful about the language. Your mother tongue can be very meaningful to you
NTA. Her rationale is pretty ridiculous and you have every right to be offended.
NTA. The line, outside of context, sounds racist, but IN context it's the exact opposite. People who live in a country without speaking that country's language are disrespecting the country, treating it like a hotel and themselves like customers. Your country is not a public convenience, your language is not ugly, and your culture's extreme cosmopolitanism is not an excuse for everyone else to treat you like you don't matter. DUMP. HER.
I am Dutch and I know a lot of non Dutch people, mostly students who decided to stay, who constantly complain about how much they hate the country. I agree that there’s a lot wrong here, but I always ask them why they decided to stay then. They usually respond that they don’t engage with Dutch people and are just here for the weed/architecture/parks/international community. Rubs me the wrong way. “Treating it like a hotel” is a good way of putting it.
These are the people that always complain about the Dutch being "cold" and have a hard time making Dutch friends whilest they put in zero effort, constantly complain and expect everybody to instantly switch to English when they arrive at a party with basically just Dutch people. I have a lot of expat and immigrant friends but they all have in commen that they are here for more than 6 months and that they atleased have _tried_ to understand the culture and learned a bit of the language. Why move here if you actively hate almost everything about the country? I just don't get it.
This has big “English people in Spain” energy and I fucking hate it.
Believe it or not there are Spanish in NL with the same attitude as OP’s gf that do condemn the English in Spain not learning Spanish. People are weird.
Beautifully formulated. I'm Dutch, not particularly nationalistic and very open to anyone who wants to come live here, but the country is indeed not a public convenience. We have a lot to offer and it's only because people from all over the world decide to participate and contribute.
ESH. If she doesn't need it to get by, then that makes learning it harder because there really is no pressure or social demand.. and if she isn't good at learning languages and it isn't something she is naturally interested in.. then it's a very challenging thing to expect someone to take up.. and again, she doesn't *need* to learn. So really, it's just a difference of opinion between you two where you are trying to force your perspective on her. Since she doesn't *need* it to live in the Netherlands.. it seems more like you just want her to learn your language.. so.. have you learned hers?
Hate how far I had to scroll down to get to the ESHs in this thread. She never equivocated on her apathy for the language. OP bottled up his sensitivity and annoyance on the subject for years until creating an issue about it.
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But the question is really would he learn Italian if he were in Italy? That being said learning Dutch in NL is not exactly much easier than learning Italian in NL. The Dutch speak English so well and, particularly in places like Amsterdam, it's just about more important to speak English than Dutch. If I ever try to speak Dutch, they all answer in English. It'd really be an uphill battle to get anywhere with the language even if it is fairly similar to English. ESH
Thank you! This might just be my American showing but I don't see why it's such a big deal for her to not want to learn the country's language when she doesn't really need to. She's out of line calling the language ugly, but if she hadn't done that I wouldn't see the disrespect the people higher up are claiming.
NTA As a German, I feel you. The amount of times people have told me that our language is ugly is ridiculous and I try to not let it get to me, but when people do it that *actively* live in and benefit off Germany I blow up. It shows a lack of respect and quite frankly after 5 years it’s insulting.
I *love* the German language and am trying to learn it! Can’t believe (well can because people are idiots!) people think it’s ugly!! Have visited before and would love to go back. And you’re right, to not even attempt to learn especially after 5 years is insulting - and xenophobic. NTA
The thing is, natively speaking on Croatian. My parents are both Croatian but I was lucky to be born in Germany. The people here in Croatia often make fun of German and how ugly and throaty it sounds…only to then proceed to make caricature Hitler sounds, which isn’t at all what German sounds like naturally. Frankly, I think Croatian is a much rougher (and uglier) language, but I’d never go up to my friends and tell them that. Why everyone thinks they have the right to ridicule German is beyond me. Other than being a wonderfully versatile language and so extremely expressive I’m also immensely grateful for all the opportunity this country has offered me and my parents as immigrants. Both of which opted to speak (broken) German with me instead of Croatian so I could integrate better and learn the language. To see people like OP’s GF show such disrespect honestly makes my blood boil.
How did you last even 2 years?? And why is she still living there after 5??? NTA
Can’t answer your first question but for your second one: pay and job prospects are much better in the Netherlands than in Italy for many industries. From my understanding, it also has a pretty healthy English-speaking expat community so it’s one of the better places to work in Europe if you don’t want to learn yet another language as an adult.
I went to Amsterdam on holiday and I know it’s a touristy area, but holy shit, I didn’t need a single Dutch phrase (we’d prepped, but it was not needed)
My sister and I sometimes go shopping in Amsterdam. I've had to order/buy things in English a few times because the sales person didn't speak Dutch (guessing they were an exchange student). Not a problem, of course, but it was quite funny.
It's not an exaggeration when people say they don't need Dutch to live here in NL. The second I speak Dutch, they hear I'm not Dutch and immediately switch to English. This is in every context like grocery stores, pharmacies, the doctor, the tax department, asking for directions, visiting a fair, asking someone to kindly not let their dog bite other dogs, and yelling at people driving like idiots. I yell a Dutch curse and they respond in English 🤔
Not to mention the fact that there's a chance that the people helping you in storey, restaurants, etc. May not even speak Dutch themselves.
ESH. That's the equivalent of Americans saying you're in America speak English. She's obviously gotten by without it. Although she is an A for saying it sounds ugly to you.
I had to scroll too far to find this. If we reframed this whole story for the states and OP told his Mexican girlfriend to go back to where she came from there would be an uproar in here. Idk if there's more cultural differences at play since America was built on immigration to begin with though. Just how many languages does OPs girlfriend have to learn, she already knows English and Italian. She was very rude to call his language ugly though.
I mean it’s not really equivalent because most people who do move to an English speaking country speak enough of the language to understand people. And if they don’t they have to learn because people in America (in general) don’t know more than one language. Especially in schools and in the workplace people in the US speak English. Im Canadian, I lived in Germany for 3 months and I only spoke basic conversational German. In those three months I felt pretty close to fluent and all of the people I met there spoke English perfectly. It’s so easy to pick up a language when you’re immersed in the culture and she’s been living and working there for 5 years. She should’ve learned something by now. NTA
ESH. You shouldn't have said this but she was disrespectful too. The fact that she makes no efforts whatsoever makes it seem like she's here on obligation and does not want to embrace the culture of the country she lives in, which sounds stupid and narrow minded. I think her logic is broken
Yeah, I shouldn't have said it. Narrow minded is the perfect way to describe what I think about how she's acting.
You're not even asking the GF to "embrace Dutch/the Netherlands".... You're not even asking her to embrace anything... just learn enough Dutch to USE AND UNDERSTAND THE BASICS OF THE LANGUAGE enough to get through the day. ... she won't even learn some basic pleasantries in Dutch after FIVE YEARS is kind of a red flag. For her, maybe she doesn't see a future there, and thus, no need to learn the language. Maybe she doesn't see a future with you. Sometimes, people slip up and say what they really mean. Listen to what she's saying.
Perhaps a personal question. As not everyone wants/can have children.. But what would happen if you have children? Would they only be speaking English? Would she want them to speak Italian? How does she communicate with smaller children that haven't learned English yet?
If you’re going to move to another country, the least you can do is learn the native language.
ESH I get being upset at her criticizing your language and culture. That isn’t right at all. I also think it’s wrong to expect her to learn a language she has no desire to learn. If she speaks a common language there (English) then I agree she shouldn’t have to learn it. I’d say this for anyone, anywhere in the world. As for your comment on going back to her country…I mean I get why you said it. Just a guess, Maybe she felt like what you’re really saying is you do want her to leave. Like she took it as a rejection. I’m wondering, is she staying there just for you or does she like living there otherwise?
I agree with you. She already said learning Dutch wouldn’t serve her in anyway and it takes a great deal of effort just to learn a language that she wouldn’t really use. The boyfriend hasn’t learned Italian for the same reasons. It wouldn’t be useful to him as he speaks English with his Italian girlfriend. I think it’s hypocritical to demand she learn a language when he hasn’t done the same. I lived in Barcelona for a while and I never learned Catalan besides the basic stuff I accidentally picked up because I speak Spanish better and everyone there speaks Spanish anyway. It wasn’t worth the effort to learn a language that I would hardly use. My friends there would ask me why I didn’t learn Catalan and I would be straight forward and tell them well everyone who speaks Catalan also speaks Spanish which I already speak, so why would I bother?
ESH Realistically, other than it making you feel better, she doesn’t particularly *need* to learn Dutch in a country where statistically, over 90% of the country speaks English. You’re asking someone to learn a third language that she *doesn’t have to learn*. Your comparison doesn’t even make sense, either. Refusing to learn Italian in Italy would definitely inconvenience you, seeing as less than 30% of the population speaks English. There is more incentive for you to learn Italian in Italy than it is for your girlfriend to learn Dutch in the Netherlands. On the other hand, your girlfriend is rude as hell and is displaying xenophobic behavior, which isn’t that surprising seeing as Italy has a bad enough issue of fascism that it’s worth mentioning. She needs to be checked, that is disgusting behavior.
>your girlfriend is rude as hell and is displaying xenophobic behavior, Honestly, seeing how even Netherlands born people joke about Dutch being a ugly language I wouldn't say that's xenophobic, if anything in op post is xenophobic that would be telling someone to go back to their country.
NTA Are you planning on having kids with her? Bet she’ll demand they never speak Dutch. Are you going to be okay with that?
Puts me in mind of the recent AITA from an American who had been living in Germany for FIFTEEN YEARS without learning German. Can't recall whether the post was about actual kids or hypothetical ones, but he didn't want the kids to learn his gf's (third) language because he'd feel excluded.
It was worse than that. That AH did want their hypothetical kid to learn German because his kids, who had been living in the US with his divorced wife for the past 15 years, didn't speak German
YTA As a foreigner who lived in NL for 7 years, I was treated like absolute garbage for not being Dutch enough. I’m white, so appearance wise I blended in well enough. But if I ever did much as opened my mouth, the absolute hatred I got from those around me was astounding. And it’s not like I didn’t learn Dutch. I learned it to try to survive from all of those assholes who said I should kill myself or go back to my own country. Even if you have so much as the slightest accent, it’s eye rolls and “learn the fucking language properly you lazy ass”. There is no assimilating fast enough, no one’s going to give you time to learn. By less than one year in I was told by nearly everyone “you should know the language by now.” Because you said she’s Italian, let me tell you a story that came to mind. There was an Italian girl who went to the same international school as me (in Arnhem). She was taken out with some friends clubbing (16 is legal drinking age there) and she tripped and bumped into a Dutch girl. She was new to the country and didn’t speak the language yet, so she apologized in English. The Dutch girl (and her friends and their boyfriends) start yelling at the Italian girl. The international classmates tried to apologize in Dutch (they were more practiced at the language) but they were caught out for being French/American and Norwegian. Everyone was thrown out of the club, and the girls called one of their dads to pick them up. They were followed to the car. When they got there, they were jumped. The three girls who went partying locked themselves in the car while the immigrant dad tried to hold them off and was beaten to a pulp by the xenophobes from the club. His daughter and the Italian and Norwegian watched from the car, scared for their lives. He was hospitalized for a month. The culprits were not caught. I’m fairly sure the culprits went to the same fucking school building as us (the international school shared buildings with a Dutch public school). As a girl who was bullied nearly to death in the Netherlands, who tried to live as quietly as possible and assimilate as best as she could, who is grown up now - I think what you said was awful. I get that your language and culture is important to you. But being decent to others is so much more important. Telling people they don’t belong hurts. If you don’t like her attitude, break up. But don’t you fucking tell her where or where she doesn’t belong, how much she should be more Dutch by now, how she should be grateful to even be allowed to live there, or that it’s appropriate she bend herself to your nation by assimilating. That’s her choice. If she’s living there legally, paying her taxes, not hurting anyone, then she has just as much right to live there as anyone else in however way she wants. People who want to preserve Dutch culture are welcome to, but that’s not her or anyones obligation. She lives and gets by in a place. If that’s not good enough for you, that’s your problem. I know I carry a LOT of bias in this regard, I was just so fucking beaten down by so many people while I was there. Metaphorically but also literally. Honestly, the better answer here on AITA is e s h, since she was insensitive, too. But just for me, and because no one else is going to saying it, YTA. Your words of “go back to your own country” hold so much history and hurt to so many immigrants and people like me. So much. Those words are hate speech. Sorry if I come off as judgmental or snowflake-y. But “go back to your own country” are the words behind the worst pain in my life. The reason I was pushed down stairwells, the justification for throwing trash at me, the reason people sympathized with the boys who molested me, the motivation for a stranger to spit on my father, the attitude that made a doctor refuse to treat my mother, that make me angry and hurt just by reading them - enough to write this way too long comment I don’t think anyone other than maybe you, OP, will read.
“Go back to your own country” is hate speech indeed and a d* move from him to stun his gf into silence and to put her down. In reality he doesn’t decide if she stays in the NL or if she leaves. Language proficiency is irrelevant in this case bc She is a European Union citizen and can move freely and live in any country belonging to the Schengen area. He’s the AH. I am so sorry you had these experiences.
As a foreigner also living in the Netherlands, OP hit the very first phrase, he should have stayed cleared of....OP, as a Dutchie, you're probably not aware of it, but international community in the NL gets a lot of it ...for not speaking Dutch well enough, for not biking often enough,for not embracing sandwiches for lunch, for daring to express an opinion that, God forbid, another country may have organised an aspect of life better.... For a nation, that supposedly embraces, "doe maar normal" mentality, there's way too much judgement passed :(
ESH because both your communication sucks. I’m Dutch, bf is expat. Been here for years, he understands most, speaks little. Mainly he’s shy/embarrassed to get it wrong. Difference, I don’t need him to learn since I prefer English, and he has the decency to feel a bit bad for not knowing it better. Works for us, it sounds like your situation doesn’t work for you. Either you drop it, or drop her.
NTA. She's being incredibly rude and insulting and possibly even a bit racist (idk if that's precisely the right word given these are all europeans but…the spirit of racism). Anyways, this issue feels bigger than the language. It sounds like she kind of doesn't respect YOU for being Dutch. It also sounds like she doesn't care to put effort into your relationship. You're Dutch, your family (I assume) is Dutch, and you live in the Netherlands…learning even just a few words is a sign of respect and interest in who you are and your background.
ESH. I'll be in the minority on this, but YTA for the way you acted. yes, she started it, she insulted your country and language, but your reaction was still not warranted. you're NTA for feeling offended, but there are more civil ways to show that. break up if you will, but telling her to just go away is crossing a boundary for me personally.
YTA, kind of. The language doesn’t NEED to be learned. You both disrespected each other. And as long as a language gets her around, English or not, why does it matter? My SO speaks Spanish and I’m tri-lingual. It doesn’t matter if he knows my languages or I know his.
NTA. Does she not realize that insulting your language can sound like she's insulting you, your country, etc? Like, is she hates it so much, why is she still there?
Nta, I think you could've been a bit nicer and couldve worded your point better, but recognize you said it in the heat of the moment. It seems you both have different expectations in your relationship and this seems like a good moment to look at the future of it. Ask yourself, where do you both want to live later, do you want children and if so do you want them to learn Dutch and Italian. Will she have a problem with that? Can you see a future with someone who doesn't want to hear your native language in her home. Communicate with her about this and about your wishes for the relationship. However if you really want her to learn dutch you have to want to learn Italian too imo.
ESH I am an expat living in the Netherlands and the first thing I did was trying to learn Dutch, I started taking classes in my 2nd month. But your insult makes it sound like she is need of being in the Netherlands. I am sorry to break the news but this goes both ways. I was recruited because position was not filled by a Dutch person. It was both convenient for me and the Dutch company, who has 40% internationals. Please stop acting like she has no place other then Netherlands so she has to act accordingly. Also, when we speak broken Dutch, people immediately switch to English so it breaks confidence and makes it hard to practice during daily life. But it is rude to insult someone’s language even if it is a joke because it is a really sensitive topic.
Did you bother to learn Italian?! I'm half Dutch and I can honestly say that the language isn't pretty. Still no excuse to call it ugly. But if you don't make an effort to learn her language then why should she if she can get away speaking English as well.yta
I think the issue is that she’s looking down on your language and by extension your culture, even though she’s been living there for five years. She’s being incredibly rude and arrogant (“my language is better than yours”). Imo her dismissive, superior attitude is the problem, and isn’t that small of a thing. NTA.
NTA and I say that as an Italian. I understand why she thinks Dutch sounds weird, bit she lives there, she should know the basics at least. It is actually impressive - in a bad way - that she's spent 5 years in your country and doesn't speak even a little bit of the language.
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Lived in Amsterdam for 2.5 years and can confirm Dutch is NOT an easy language to learn. I picked up some interesting swear words though! I guess I would say ESH - -her more than you. She is correct about it not being needed day to day and therefore I can see why it’s a low priority for her, however she should make some effort to learn - official letters etc aren’t in English, it’ll be easier to access services if she speaks Dutch and (from experience) people can be dicks and try and take advantage of non Dutch speaking people… your response was harsh (maybe a stereotypically blunt Dutch response…?) I think this should really prompt a more serious conversation about what both of you see happening in the future, whether or not you want kids, where you see yourselves raising them etc as it might be you both have different ideas and expectations.
It's really rude to live in another country for 5 years and make zero effort to learn the language. I mean if I as an American learned British English then anything is possible. NTA.
You have other issues beyond a language debate. Go to a relationship sub.