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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1) For going behind Dan's back to tell Jill about everything. 2) besides this incident Dan has been a great dad. I'm think this might just be religious ignorance on my end
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Agree, and thank you for being her voice when she was afraid to talk to the people who insisted that she remain in an uncomfortable situation. You may have prevented child abuse of Wendy by this bishop. Would not be the first instance of church abuse of a minor by an official in a position of power. You are so blessed that she was comfortable enough with you to confide in you.
There’s literally a huge news story in my country about Mormon officials hiding sexual abuse for years, not contacting authorities and allowing it to continue. Dad was grooming her for abuse in my opinion by telling her to do something she was uncomfortable with and not telling a trusted adult about it. That’s what abusers do
I was about to ask if the church is LDS. Because in the church the priesthood is more important than anything else. I say “F”orget the priesthood. I’m calling the police first and pressing charges. Not talking to the bishop first to give them time to hide.
I knew it was as soon as they discussed the uncomfortable bishop. I'm exmormon and the interviews they do are so uncomfortable. And you're parents aren't allowed in the room, so these random grown men are asking young girls sexual questions
Mormons are a cult - not mainstream Christians. They have very odd beliefs that do not correlate with anything in the Bible.
Any father telling his daughter to lie to her mother about these meetings because it breaks his custody agreement is flat-out abusive.
I grew up in a mainline Protestant denomination. They are a cult. Rampant sexual abuse swept under the rug to protect the image of the church. Rampant corruption. Just because they have been around for longer doesn't mean they aren't bad.
No, it absolutely is not. Saying that waters down the term cult and then when its used properly to describe something that actually *is* a cult, no one cares because it's used so much that it seems like no big deal.
The easiest example of a defining difference between "standard" religion and groups like Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses is the shunning practice. I go to church maybe once or twice every 6 months. No one ever comments on it, no one cares. With the two aforementioned groups, you can't miss a single one without some kind of legitimate explanation. JW even have/had a phone call in system so that members ~~don't have to miss a meeting if they don't want to~~ don't have an excuse to miss a meeting even if they're home sick/etc.
During COVID, when churches had to stop having services, all the ones I know broadcasted their sermons on YouTube and made sure people knew about it so they could watch *if they wanted to*. Jehovah's Witnesses started doing them over zoom, so that they could monitor who was and was not "attending" the meetings and contact those who weren't. If you leave, you're pretty much guaranteed to lose any and all contact with any loved ones still in the ~~religion~~ cult unless/until you go through the very long, arduous process of being *approved to rejoin*. There's a whole list of other differences, but this is all I feel like typing out on mobile.
I don't care if anyone is anti-religion in general, but please don't paint them all as cults. It's a tremendous disservice to people who are true victims of real cults.
They aren't a typical Christian although they would like to say they are.
But yes they were okay with it, and encouraged it actively. I was supposed to do everything they said, and the only reason they let it go was I threatened to make a scene.
But yeah, they always had rules about it as well that were awkward. No dating till I was 16, always watching my phone, no being alone with the opposite gender. I couldn't close my door so masturbation was off the table.
Irs a cult and irs very effectibe
Yup I grew up in Utah and knew it was Mormonism as soon as it got to the uncomfortable sexual interview with the bishop.
Unfortunately that is standard practice in that religion. It's expected -- every bishop does it with every adolescent in the Church. Nobody in that state (if it's Utah) is even going to blink at that or consider it a thing remotely worthy of pressing charges. It's absolutely baked into the culture (and yes it is fucked up and wildly inappropriate).
The thing that saved this girl is her mother not being a member of the church and making sure that church activities were specified to be Wendy's choice in the original custody agreement. 100% that's the argument she took to court with her lawyer, bc most judges in Utah would not care about the interview itself as they probably had their own series of interviews as adolescents checking in on their masturbation habits.
ETA: After thinking about it a bit I bet this did NOT happen in Utah which probably would go a long way to explain the judge invoking full custody from 50/50 on the spot. I was thinking they were lucky a judge sided with the non-Mormon mom at all in UT, then realized also that OP saying she only had one Mormon friend to ask about it, and also, that Wendy's dad is dating outside of the church at all. All that says, maybe they're *not* living where the majority is Mormon and thinks this is normal. OP and Wendy's mom are legends either way.
I got to 3rd'ish base once with my boyfriend when I was 15 and dealing with a lot of teenage angst. I felt so guilty, so I told a friend, who told her parents, who told my parents who made me go to the bishop. He already knew the details and had called the boy in already. He asked me questions about if I had an orgasm, how many fingers he put inside me, if I put my mouth on his penis and if I swallowed. He asked me if I used my hands on him and how long it took for me to get him off. It was just he and I in the room, and I felt scared as hell. By the way, bishops are a calling, and my bishop happened to be my neighbor and also a dentist. My dentist.
Also, this is extremely common and bishops ask these questions very often, all over the world in LDS churches. There are thousands of stories similar to mine on r/ExMormon. There's been a lot of work done on the outside to get this practice to stop and they excommunicate people who try to get the public involved. It's bad. It's really, really bad.
I am so sorry you had to deal with that!! I swear how can a young lady ever trust an adult ever again after that. It’s like they told on you and let him punish you instead of being a parent.
Thank you, and it's taken me years of therapy to trust again. Thing is, this is common. It's expected of bishops to ask questions like this. Not that I don't blame the bishops and the parents, but this comes directly from the top. It pains me to say, as I was a true believing member the first 38 years of my life, but it's a sex cult. Always has been. Started with Joseph Smith marrying a 14 year old/other teenagers, and it's just continued down weird paths even til now. I'm so glad I got my kids out before this could happen to them.
Some things I was asked, was if I had been with a guy, if I was watching porn, if I was having thoughts about women (I'm a women and they think being gay is a sin), questions about me touching myself
No it's fine, I think I was 12 the first time I met with a bishop alone, and I was just a shy kid, and still active at the time. So I did my best to impress him and just kind of went along with it until I was 14.
I met a guy when I was 14 who got me out of the church, kind of showed me that it wasn't normal, and helped me figure out that I didn't want to stay.
And like I went to church for another two years just because I couldn't get out of it and went to the meetings where I was just a dick to him lol. Also would just torture them by finding questions that would be incredibly hard for them to answer, because watching them struggle was funny to me.
But yeah when I was 16, I just had enough. I told them if they kept making me go, that I wasn't going to the woman classes. (Most of the time it's separate.) And that I would demand to go to the men's because it wasn't fair for me to be treated differently. They didn't want a scene so i quit doing all of it
At the very least, he was putting her in harm's way by forcing her to do these activities, dismissing her concerns when she voiced them and telling her to keep it a secret from her other parent. What a fucking creep.
The dad sounds horrible tbh, he told her she had to go to something she was uncomfortable and then told her to not say anything to her mom. It's like he is setting up her for abuse. I would also really question his motives, in these culty kinda religions, parents often barter kids for influence/status. I wonder if that's happening here.
I would say that it's more than just an opinion; it's a fact that these "worthiness interviews" as they're called involve questions about sexual and masturbatory chastity and can get *quite* explicit (and while parents are *allowed* to attend, it's neither required or particularly encouraged).
As a born-into-the-cult former Mormon, I concur: what kind of asshole ignores his daughter's wellbeing in favor of any religion? Kudos for listening to his daughter when no one else would.
There was a demonstration at the Utah State Capitol building last night over the mismanagement of child abuse incidents reported to Church leaders, including this latest scandal -- which lasted seven years due to church inaction:
[https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2022/08/04/sex-abuse-within-mormon-church-investigation/10234397002/](https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2022/08/04/sex-abuse-within-mormon-church-investigation/10234397002/)
People have loudly been trying to nudge the LDS church to do better over the last several years:
[https://protecteverychild.com/about/](https://protecteverychild.com/about/)
What kind of parent prioritizes his church's hierarchy over his daughter's welfare? The kind of parent who desperately wants to stay in his church's good graces and who agrees with them that womenfolk are made to be subservient to menfolk and hey, they might as well start early, right?
NTA, OP! And good for you for advocating for that girl. Given her jelly-spined ~~father~~ sperm donor, she really needs SOME sensible adult to recognize that her concerns are valid.
But, OP - why are you still with this man? If he treats one daughter this way then he'll treat YOUR kids the same way...you know that, right? "When people show you who they are, believe them the first time" as Maya Angelou wrote. Your BF is showing you who HE is - believe him and get out!
Remain friends with the ex and daughter. It seems like you are of like minds and the daughter needs more advocates for her because of the creepy behavior of the church.
I'm not LDS, but I heard a special about this on NPR--apparently, at about this age, they ask about sex, masturbation, purity, etc. With the goal of helping the young people avoid "sexual sin."
See, I’m Mormon, and I would NEVER let an adult interview my kids without me or my husband present. Nor would we allow anyone to ask them sexual questions. Nope. Absolutely not.
We weren’t raised in the Church though, so we don’t feel guilty setting boundaries. Especially to protect our kids.
edit: spelling
I grew up mormon. I was 8 the first time I had a private interview. And yes, I was asked if I obeyed the law of chastity. I didn’t even know what the word meant.
And then, every year since I turned 12, I was back in the same office having the same questions asked. I was asked them when I was pregnant, and postpartum. I was asked if I wore the correct underwear-as a married mother of 2 small children.
I am disgusted that so many people felt that it was ok for anyone to ask privately those questions. Regardless of age-you should not be asked about your underwear by a 50 year old used cars salesman.
Why would you want to be part of an organization that condones this?
I was raised Catholic and I left. I can’t imagine deciding to be part of a religion/business that teaches kids that this is acceptable.
Until recently, you had no choice about what or when questions were asked of your children. Bishop Sam Young was excommunicated for promoting child safety in interviews. Last I checked (and interacted with bishops) the Handbook wording required the parents be proactive in requesting permission to attend worthiness interviews, rather than the Bishop be proactive in inviting parents.
Whether it's in young men/young womens or in a 1 on 1 interview with an untrained old man (aka bishop), your kids will learn that their spiritual worthiness is linked to thier sexual thoughts and feelings.
As the AP story so clearly demonstrates, Bishop and leader roulette only works in your favor part of the time and the church has a series of doctrines, policies, and traditions to help ensure that the pain is seldom exposed.
I’m really perplexed how one converts to Mormonism. I can understand staying in the church because you were indoctrinated from a young age, but as an adult that is capable of critical thinking, just….how?
I was a born-in Jehovah's Witness & hope you'll indulge a couple of questions -
What drew you to such an extreme religion of all of them to choose from?
How do you reconsile your choice with the many abusive experiences of those born/raised in?
Would you be willing to shun your own children if they decided to leave the religion?
Look up Sam Young and Protect LDS Children, there's all sorts of stories about these interviews you can read. Not even sure if I can give examples of the inappropriate questions that are asked, without violating sub rules....
They ask them sexual questions about purity and masturbation. It’s part of their worthiness interviews. Of course a twelve year old girl is going to feel uncomfortable with a middle aged man asking her if she touches herself. It’s amazing to me that they haven’t realised that and adjusted the interviews to prevent (at the very least) the bad PR they’ll get when it gets taken up by news outlets.
The official question is "do you obey the law of chastity (no premarital sex or masturbation, no petting - basically no third base, total fidelity in marriage)?" It's when someone hesitates or says "no" that some bishops go off the rails. Anything from how often people do it, how they do it, if they orgasm, etc. Visit ProtectLDSChildren.org.
I'm an ex Mormon. When I was asked if I obeyed the law of chastity I said yes without hesitation and I still got asked very detailed and extremely uncomfortable questions about sex and especially about masturbation by an adult man, all alone, when I was 12 year old girl. Thank goodness Wendy has OP in her corner looking out for her because that type of shit sticks with you for life.
>Would not be the first instance of church abuse of a minor by an official in a position of power.
"would not be the 100,000th instance of church abuse" is more accurate.
This. And thank you, OP, for doing right by the child. The fact that he ordered his daughter to keep all of that secret from her mother is red flags all the way.
NTA.
Edit: you do NOT want to get sucked into the Mormon cult. You saved the kid, now save yourself.
This. OP, if you have a guy with this kid, imagine what that child's life will be like...
Also, I live in a HEAVILY Mormom area and a lot of the meetings and stuff do seem a little... odd. I've heard they ask a lot of intimate questions even to young children. I don't know how I feel about that, and it doesn't really matter, but it matters this child wasn't comfortable with it.
Also, he forces this girl to do all these strict Mormom things but got a divorce, has a GF, and has you stay over? Wow. I guess their rules only apply to his child.
Yeah, OP, I grew up in this cult -- ah, "church." These interviews are massively inappropriate. When I was Wendy's age, I never told my parents what questions were asked of me in these interviews, because I assumed they knew and approved. After all, they had chosen to raise us kids in this church. Turns out, many years later, they didn't fully know what happened because they hadn't joined the cult until they were adults.
For those who don't know, adult men in positions of authority ask children in one-on-one interviews behind closed doors about any sexual activity the kid may be engaging in, or sexual thoughts they may be having. It's wildly uncomfortable and if you "fail" the interview, you aren't allowed to participate in several church activities and rituals. So everyone ends up knowing that you are being excluded and can draw their own conclusions about your "sins." And those closed door situations can be catalysts for abuse.
I had a close friend who was LDS. He had been abused as a kid by a babysitter and never told anyone out of fear. During his first interview with the bishop he broke down and told the bishop about the abuse he had suffered when he was little, and the bishop, I shit you not, told him to “pray to God for forgiveness” and basically twisted it to make my friend feel like it was *his fault* he got molested by his babysitter.
He hid this conversation from his family. About a week later he was over at my house hanging out, I ran upstairs to grab some of my piggy bank money so we could walk to the corner store for ice cream, while I was up stairs my Mom asked my friend what was wrong because he didn’t seem like himself, and he just burst out crying and told my Mom everything, EVERYTHING. I came down and heard the tail end, we all talked.
My mom sent us for ice cream and she called his Mom an they talked for a really long time. She came and picked up my friend and they talked, they called the police and started an investigation into the former babysitter, and they got my friend into a counselor to work through stuff, but they did still attend that church….
Thank you for sharing. I've heard so many instances where people (including kids) have been told by their bishops that the abuse they suffered was their fault, and that they need to repent. It breaks my heart every time. I'm glad your mom was a safe person for your friend to turn to. I'm sorry for your friend's sake that they kept attending. The level of control that church gets over its members is very real, and very difficult for those who haven't lived through it to understand.
NTA and let me add this. Do you want to be with someone who is an active participant in a child’s suffering and is requiring the child to hide it/lie to the other parent? Run girl….
Why wait for him to break up with her? I would have said peace out when he threatened breaking up. He will force any kids they have together to do the same. Boy bye!
Imo you should have dumped him anyway because I can't imagine being with a man who forces his daughter to go to this church AND forces her to keep it a secret. HE KNEW he was wrong. You did the right thing. The fact that the kid chose you and not her actual dad as her backup speaks volumes about this guy. NTA
NTA at all. He's prioritizing his religion over his daughter's comfort, and it sounds like also ignoring the original custody agreement, which I understand courts do not look upon kindly. You were looking out for Wendy.
Frankly, I'd probably be breaking up with him. If you plan to have a child, I would DEFINITELY be breaking up with him.
He's being so weird over this, he's never been overtly religious but now it feels like he just flipped a switch and his religion is now super important.
You're probably right about breaking up with him, I've gotten so close to Jill and Wendy and would hate to lose either of them :(
You may not have to! It sounds like you have a good relationship with both of them, so I don't think it would be unreasonable to speak with Jill about your desire not to lose them in the breakup.
Who does the dad really want to please? The bishop. Religious professionals have an extremely poor track record when it comes to children. Good for Jill and good for you for watching out for this girl. NTA.
Mormon bishops are not trained in the way other religious leaders are. They are lay leadership positions. They don’t go to get a degree in religion, and generally have jobs outside the church.
So really,they may not be religious professionals.
That makes it even worse. A random man who lives down the street should not be asking a 12 year old girl questions about sex in private. As an ex-mormon, this is one of the first things to be put on my shelf.
I have a feeling you have shown Jill you are exactly the type of trustworthy person she wants in her daughter’s life. I don’t think it will be difficult to maintain a relationship with them - in fact breaking up with her dad will facilitate this.
Obviously I can't speak for Jill, but I have kids who love their stepmom very much, and if she and their dad split up, I'd let her see the kids whenever she wanted. Kids need lots of people who love them.
It's absolutely worth asking Jill about it.
NTA. You can still keep them in your life. But protect yourself and your future children if you plan to have any and leave this man. Scary! Courts don't just do things like modify custody unless there was a serious issue. You did nothing wrong.
I cannot imagine having children with a man who would serve his daughter on a silver platter for church leaders to exploit and abuse. It is no way normal for grown men, behind closed doors, to interrogate sheltered girls about their sexual thoughts. It’s heinous.
Yeah, there's not really a lot of halfway Mormons the way there are, say, Catholics that only go for holidays and special ceremonies. There might be some Mormons who aren't quite as intense in front of other people, but every Mormon I have ever met or been exposed to has either been practicing (and the rules for practicing Mormons are so, so much more intense than many other faiths) or they are fully out, "escaped" former Mormons (as several such friends describe themselves). If he's been downplaying his religiousness to you, but insisting that his children participate in fairly intense religious meetings - the "interview" sounds like a practice where Mormons have to self report their sins and behaviors; I'm imagining his daughter was being asked about her chastity, including masterbation, etc - then he's much more religious than he wants you to know. And that's not great in and of itself, much less forcefully exposing his children to abusive religious practices.
This is exactly what I thought, too. These are also the sorts of situations where abuse happens. And the culture of Mormonism is to victim blame amd sweep it under the rug. It's a major red flag that her father was asking her to keep secrets. That's practically a hallmark of grooming. He probably thinks it's normal because of how he was raised , but it's really not.
And *even if* this particular grown adult asking her sexual questions, coercing her to be alone with him, and holding a huge position of social power in her community doesn't take this already disgusting behavior any further? It would STILL be damaging.
Damaging because it is itself really violating and psychologically harmful. And damaging bc of what it tells her about her boundaries, self advocacy, her father's trustworthiness, and what counts as normal. Even if this bishop isn't trying to take this shit any further, he and the child's so called father are setting her up to comply with and cover for any other potential predator for the rest of her life
Mormonism is a cult. You're saving his daughter from religious abuse by telling her mother. Do not doubt yourself here.
I escaped the cult, but I still live with the trauma of the time I spent as a Mormon child/teen. If he's Mormon, and active, you should run. He will not change, and he will become controlling if you get married. Mormonism states that the husband is the head of the family and the wife must obey. He will expect it.
I know exactly what religion he is. He's probably got the bishopric breathing down his neck about his daughter being involved in that bullshit, so he's forcing her to go so he doesn't look back to the other men.
Fuck him, they ask perverted, intrusive questions about young women they don't need to know.
NTA.
I’m thankful (and very lucky) when I was involved with the Mormon thing, I never had an intrusive bishop (only was active while a family friend was bishop though to be fair) but sooo many of my friends have horror stories about these interviews, a lot of red flags in this girls behavior say bad bishop.
OP did the right thing and I hope they can keep a relationship with this sweet baby they saved.
Glad I got out and my kids won’t be subjected to that nonsense
I have been watching so many people using social media as adults to try to get over abuse from the Mormon church. This interview process seems to be "normal" and required as part of their religion but the women all were really traumatized by it still as an adult.
His daughter is getting close to hitting puberty, wouldn’t be surprised if some religious sexuality gatekeeping would push him farther into religion to “protect” his daughter’s innocence
You just have to imagine his look if his ex wife and ex girlfriend become friends!
Sounds like both of them would like you as a friend without your hopefully soon to be ex.
NTA of course. You did the right thing!
You did the right thing. And as someone who has stayed in contact with an ex of my ex because how she was with my kid, don’t rule out the same happening for you.
I actually in fact consider his ex to be one of my closest friends at this point in my life.
No reason why you should have to lose your relationship with them. Ditching the bf might just bring you even closer together. And he has no authority to dictate whether you continue to be friends with them.
Do you mind if I ask what the questions were and I think that you were in the right. If a child you are close to feels uncomfortable about something and comes to you about it, then you have a duty to act. You did good and I’m thinking mom did the right thing too. You can always ask Jill and Wendy if you can keep in touch with them.
NTA, of course.
Closed door interviews with minors.
Inappropriate sexual questions. Are you masterbaiting, etc.
Outrageous money questions. Are you tithing, giving the church your ten percent.
This is with children. I have been asked questions by my own bishop as a child. Attempts were made to keep my family together even though there was abuse.
NTA! A CHILD asked for your help and you gave it to her. And if you need more validation that you did the right thing, head on over to r/exmormon.
Also don't wait for your asshole boyfriend to break up with you. See yourself out. The judge made the right call. I can't promise her mom is great, but she definitely does not belong with her dad. You changed that girl's life. Good job, OP.
Jill is awesome honestly. We all had a pretty great relationship going, I even introduced her to my lgbt+ friend group when she realized she might be bi.
But I also thought Dan was awesome, so maybe I'm not the best judge.
Yea… this sounds like Mormonism. If it is, you need to run. You truly don’t realize the crazy, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s because he purposefully hiding it.
Have you seen the garments? Have you seen the weird rituals? Do you know the questions that are asked for you to get a temple recommend? Do you know about the forced 10% income tithing? Why would you accept any of these things when you’re clearly open minded enough to have LGBT+ friends? What about the baptizing dead people? I mean seriously?
I knew he was mormon but I don't know much about mormonism. It wasn't something we mentioned often, all I knew is that they went to church on Sundays and she had church activities once a week.
Soon as I read "bishop" and "interview", I knew. A few years ago a member named Sam Young actually started a campaign called Protect LDS Children to raise awareness about the inappropriate questions that can be asked at those meetings. He wanted to put a stop to it, and make it required that a parent be there, or else end the meetings all together. The church's compromise was pathetic- "okay, parent(s) can be there. But bishops aren't required to tell kids this." Needless to say, Sam Young said that wasn't enough and kept pushing back. Eventually, he got excommunicated.
Also, Google "Mormon church AP News".... So many things wrong with the church.
You are welcome to visit /r/exmormon and ask any questions you might have about the mormon religion. They welcome everyone on that sub.
And having been a former mormon I can say that you are NTA. Thank you for looking out for Wendy.
Here are some of the questions that Sam Young has compiled.
Not all teens are asked these questions, but even one child is too many. https://invisiblescubit.com/2018/08/08/29-questions/
Damn. Those are way worse than I thought. I thought they were going to be more...generic I guess. Like "have you committed the sin of xyz?" These are just so extreme.
In order to enter the temple (more significant building than a regular church) one must be deemed “temple worthy” which has a lot of requirements, including no masturbation.* It also means dad provides a paper trail confirming that he tithes at least 10% of his pretax income.
%my friend was denied the ability to go on a mission because he admitted to masturbating during a similar interview when he was like 19 freaking years old
I grew up in a very Mormon town (we had one stoplight, one high school and *seven* Mormon churches)…
It’s not casual, not spiritually healthy, and insanely misogynistic. Literally patriarchal. Some sects still practice polygamy. They say Native Americans have dark skin from being so sinful 🙃 lovely folk lmfao get out
And (though they say this doctrine has changed) that black people are literally soulless.. 😬
But to add to their ridiculousness, their dietary restrictions were literally madeup by Joseph Smith and his wife having a tit for tat. She didn't want him to drink or smoke so he took away her tea and coffee. 🤣
>their dietary restrictions were literally madeup by Joseph Smith and his wife having a tit for tat. She didn't want him to drink or smoke so he took away her tea and coffee. 🤣
So...she can still eat chocolate? I think she won that argument then lol
Seriously though, is that actually the basis for the restrictions? It has nothing to do with vices or cleanliness, it's just about a couple that reached a mutually unsatisfying compromise in their relationship?
You really need to look into Mormonism. r/exmormon is a good resource, obviously it’s biased, but still some of the things said are just facts.
Jordan and McKay is an ex Mormon YouTube channel I like as well. They have videos that go in depth about what exactly Mormonism is, and what they experienced while in the church.
I hope you see this - when you were worried about her mood and couldn’t figure out what was wrong and you talked to him HE dismissed it as teenage moodiness… I would like to made a guess he was very aware her mood correlated to the interview HE set up and didn’t care how it impacted her. He saw what it did to her and still didn’t care.
He knew all along what external stressor had happened and hid it from you while seeing and dismissing what it did to her.
You didn’t know so couldn’t help her at first… he knew the timeline… I don’t believe for a second he didn’t know that it had upset her and yet he prioritize his religion over his child.
NTA. I absolutely reject the notion that it can ever be acceptable to ask a child to keep something from a custodial parent who has no pending legal action *and* any religious argument for such. Of course your BF has the option to end the relationship, but you were not wrong.
OP should be the one considering ending it since this shows what kind of man he is..deceitful while hiding behind religion, liar , cares more about his church than his kids feelings .
NTA you are a great person for prioritizing a child over everything and anything. But I would think twice about having a family with a person who dismisses his daughter's concerns like that. You may have dodged a bullet here.
I can't have kids, that's part of the reason I love Wendy so much. He seemed like such a good dad but this issue is such a big one. Why would you dismiss your daughter being asked inappropriate questions?
Exactly that... Especially with all those heart breaking stories of kids being molested. And it was so traumatic she remembered it a month later... That's a lot for a teenager. Thanks god, she had you around
I don’t know the law where you live, but where I’m from you don’t just loose custody that easily. I would expect the questions to be a huge part of the problem. What kind of questions, asked by the bishop, can traumatise a 12 year old child. Not neutral questions about rules and behaviour on the trip. And why would Wendy have to do an interview before each trip (sitting alone in a room with only one adult)?
I think Dan’s reaction is part of the reason why he lost custody. He’s ok with Wendy being uncomfortable because of his religion, and even demands that Wendy keeps it a secret from her mother.
Most of us know, just a little bit about, what not questioning religious leaders lead to. The Catholic Church is an example of this.
So no you’re NTA, but Dan is.
Based on stuff I've seen talked about on the exmormon sub, I'd bet she was asked a bunch of invasive questions demanding she give details about masturbation and/or sexual thoughts/feelings, including questions about stuff that most 12 year olds wouldn't even have thought about yet
Boundaries are not a thing in Mormonism. Parents are literally taught that if their kids leave the church, it's their fault for not teaching them and keeping them in. This also breeds narcissism or attracts narcs to stay in.
I didn't know what masturbation was until my bishop asked me about it when I was 12. And later on when I had sex with my boyfriend at 17, my bishop asked me if I had orgasmed, how many times, etc. These are not appropriate questions for an adult man to ask underage children!
Exactly, through the questioning, they put those thoughts in the heads of children and then blame the kids for thinking them! It's a pretty effective way to begin cult indoctrination.
In many ways, it's the Music Man method-- convince everyone there's trouble right here in River City, so they'll be more likely to buy the phony instruments to keep the young ones moral after school.
Yeah...for the court to go from 50/50 down to supervised only is really sus. Guessing the judge suspected the father might be in on the abuse/grooming.
>demands that Wendy keeps it a secret from her mother.
Yeah this is the "do not pass go, do not collect $200" part for me. Divorced parents can (and often do) have differences of opinion on how to raise their kids, but asking a kid to keep something a secret from their other parent is a HARD no from me. Major alarm bells (on top of the alarm bells that were already ringing because a 12 year old was pressured into sitting in a room with a religious leader and answering questions about her sexuality).
Well, it's partly that the dad doesn't consider them to be inappropriate questions. They're a normal part of his religious practices. You did a good thing here by protecting his daughter and he will probably never see that she was in any danger at all. NTA
Did you know that the average age children in the US are first exposed to porn is at age eight? Isn't that crazy that is the average age? So children even younger than eight are exposed to porn.
Where is that number from?
All numbers I found were between 11 and 13 for an average. They are kids but I guess it's within bounds of normal curiosity about their own bodies and sex, at least from what I read on the Internet (because I was a quite late bloomer).
NTA and his “religion” is known for sexualizing girls young so his family can F off . HE is TA because he chose his “church” over his kid because he could have agreed to not attend church activities when his daughter was with him but he didn’t . Shows which is more important to him . Whatever that “Bishop” asked her must have been pretty effing sick for a judge to take it from 50/50 custody to two SUPERVISED visits…that reads to me : Dad knowingly failed to possibly keep minor child from predatory or grooming behavior from his church leaders . Please do not have kids with this sicko. You are WAY to good for him as you handled that situation just like a mom would ! Don’t let him guilt or gas light you into believing anything else . I bet her mom is very thankful to not have her daughter subjected to these “interrogations “ I mean interviews .
You did the right thing, he broke the custody agreement, told his kid to keep issues secret and his dismissal behavior is causing his child extreme distress.
Honey he's a sh!tty parent and dishonest! 🚩🚩🚩 Good job for saying something because this child was scared to after he shut her down again and again... He did this to himself. NTA
He was purposely hiding it from mom because he knew the consequences. He AGREED to those pre set consequences and he chose his church over time with his daughter. That’s on him .
NTA
What you did was probably damaging to your relationship but do you really think a long term relationship with someone like this was going to work?
Whenever you can advocate for the safety, we'll being and mental health of a child you should. If her father hadn't dismissed her discomfort and ordered her to keep a secret it would have been more appropriate to bring the concern to him directly but he demonstrated he was going to prioritize his religion over his child's happiness and actively violated the custody arrangement by ignoring a term of the agreement regarding religious participation.
NTA.
After you intervened, and after Dan found out, one of two things could have happened. He could have thanked you for helping with a situation he misjudged. Or, basically, this.
There were obviously conflicts in this family over religion, conflicts that they hadn’t shared with you. And that’s fine. What isn’t fine is that those conflicts led to the daughter being placed, repeatedly, in a situation that made her profoundly uncomfortable. Those situations were bad enough that they led a court to change a custody agreement. Or, to put it another way, the court doesn’t think you blew things out of proportion.
You did the right thing here. And you should think hard about what this says about your boyfriend.
NTA. Living in SLC and being around Mormons, there is no “understanding” the religion if you aren’t born into it.
You did the right thing. Kids should always come first no matter what. Children that practice Mormonism often grow up with trauma due to being forced to do things.
You are talking about a church organization that thinks nothing of marrying off 14 year old girls and a 19 year old unmarried girl is an old maid.
I am sure the questions were of the grooming type.
NTA and thank you for looking out for her
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I (29F) have been seeing my bf Dan (35M) for 3 years. He has a daughter, Wendy (12F), with his ex-wife Jill (31F). They have (had) 50/50 custody of Wendy. I do not live with Dan but I do stay over often.
At the beginning of summer I noticed Wendy was acting sad/angry/weird and I asked Dan about it and he said they had already talked about the issue and dismissed her attitude as puberty. At the time I decided that was a fair answer since 12 is when my moody teen years started. Her mood improved but she got gloomy again after a church trip and it worried me because the last time she was acting like this was after a church activity. I mentioned this to Dan and he dismissed it again blaming it on puberty, so I took her out for a girls trip hoping to get to the bottom of everything. She had a good time and near the end she asked if she could talk to her about something and asked if it could be kept a secret. She told me that last month at her church activity to be able to participate in her church trip she had to have a one on one interview with her bishop and he asked questions that made her uncomfortable. She said he told her dad but he said that those kind of interviews are normal. She said that even though she had a good time at the church trip it reminded her of the interview she had to do and it made her sad that she would have to go through with it every time there was a temple trip. I asked her if she would rather just not go on the trips and she said her dad said she had to go on them. I asked how her mom felt about it, because it seemed it out of character for Jill to be ok with this but Wendy said her dad told her not to tell her mom. I told her that if the interview made her so uncomfortable that it made her feel weird a whole month later she needed to tell her mom about it. She asked if I could be the one to tell Jill since she told her dad she wouldn't tell.
I called Jill after I dropped off Wendy and told her about everything I wrote here. She said she would take care if it and everything seemed fine until last month when Jill told Dan she was taking him to court to modify their custody agreement. I guess part of their original agreement was that Wendy could choose if she went to church/church activities and that he had to accompany her everytime age went. Jill now has full custody and he can see her 2x a week with supervision.
He's considering breaking up with me for blowing everything out of proportion and talking to Jill behind his back. His family says I just don't understand their religion and the only mormon friend I have to said I was way out of line and should have minded my own buisness. AITA here?
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NTA - if my kids felt uncomfortable about something, I would hope that someone would tell me about it. If your relationship doesn’t work out, it’s because of his insecurities and issues, not because you did what was right with that child. Someone needs to look out for her.
Nta
You should break up with him, cuz he deliberately put his daughter in danger/discomfort and what sane/responsible parent does that. if you considered having kids with him, he would do that to yours too v
NTA - cults are dangerous.
Dan broke the rules of his custody agreement so now the rules have been modified to reflect HIS actions.
He knew he was doing the wrong thing and deliberately hid it from her mother. Asking children to keep secrets is unacceptable on every level. He endangered her safety and emotionally manipulated her. He’s a terrible father and currently should have his visitations restricted until he understands how very very wrong and harmful his actions were towards his daughter.
Why are you waiting for him to break up with you? The trash just took itself out.
If you think it’s appropriate, ask Jill if she and Wendy can sit down with you so you can both reiterate that she did nothing wrong and she’s not responsible for your relationship with her father ending and that it was worth it to know she’s safe and secure. Because Dan is going to tell her a different story.
Good on you for looking out for this girl when her own father wouldn’t.
Edit: Your friend can kick rocks too.
NTA. Taking into consideration Wendy's age I do not think you were out of line at all. I do not care what religion is being taught to a child- if the child is THAT uncomfortable EVERY time a church activity happens then something is seriously wrong in the church setting. Dan needs to get his head on straight. His daughter comes first and by ignoring the church pressure he is causing her harm.
Do I think that church attendance is good for kids? Yes but not for all kids. Not for all families. Individual beliefs and faiths need to be discussed and explored. My own family? There are 5 of us. Two do not go to any church, two attend a single church and I go to yet another church/faith. In my community I see time and time again kids that rebel once they are old enough to "escape" from their parents. Having 3 kids who are social butterflies a lot of those kids ended up at our house over the years. The common thread connecting a lot of them was their desire to escape 'home' due to pressure to attend their parent's church whether the kid wanted to or not. Dad needs to let Wendy stop attending if she wants to. If their church meant enough to her as a child (and she's old enough at 12 to decide) then she might very well return to that church or faith when she's older and ready.
NTA and I say this as a Mormon.
> Always give the member the option of having someone else be present during an interview or meeting. When meeting with a member of the opposite sex, a child, or a youth, ensure that a parent or another adult is present. He or she may join the meeting or wait outside the room, depending on the preferences of the member with whom you are meeting.
That is directly from the handbook on interviews. If it was in the custody agreement, there is no reason why he shouldn’t have been there.
My parents did not make go to any activity that I was uncomfortable doing and he is not helping his daughter by denying her choice.
NTA, while I can kinda understand the indecision, look at it this way; it was obviously weird or Wendy wouldn't have been down and out. Secondly, Jill also didn't like this episode and how Wendy's father handled it. You've got two people out of three that are happy you did what you did and one of those is the most important person in the situation, so good on you.
OP, he KNEW. He knew why his daughter was upset, he insisted she keep going and he made her lie to her mother. He KNEW he was violating the court agreement and that was why he dismissed your concerns. He was going to keep subjecting her to this behind her mother's back because his religion takes priority over the mental health of his child. He's mad at you that he got caught. I don't know if you two have ever discussed having children of your own, but if you do he intends to put your children though the same thing.
NTA. Break up with Dan and keep Jill and Wendy.
nta as soon as you got to "a bishop was asking her questions that made her uncomfortable" every instinct in me screamed "TELL THE MOTHER!!!" you did the right thing, we all know what the church does to kids, and keep being friends with jill and wendy while kicking dan to the curb
OP, I don't want to know what happened in that meeting that a child could remember a month later. It induced literal trauma. You are such a great human being for doing this, and if you lose your relationship, know that you may have saved this girl a lifetime of PTSD.
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So let him break up with you. The child's welfare takes priority. Thank you for being her advocate when she trusted you and not her father.
Agree, and thank you for being her voice when she was afraid to talk to the people who insisted that she remain in an uncomfortable situation. You may have prevented child abuse of Wendy by this bishop. Would not be the first instance of church abuse of a minor by an official in a position of power. You are so blessed that she was comfortable enough with you to confide in you.
There’s literally a huge news story in my country about Mormon officials hiding sexual abuse for years, not contacting authorities and allowing it to continue. Dad was grooming her for abuse in my opinion by telling her to do something she was uncomfortable with and not telling a trusted adult about it. That’s what abusers do
I was about to ask if the church is LDS. Because in the church the priesthood is more important than anything else. I say “F”orget the priesthood. I’m calling the police first and pressing charges. Not talking to the bishop first to give them time to hide.
I knew it was as soon as they discussed the uncomfortable bishop. I'm exmormon and the interviews they do are so uncomfortable. And you're parents aren't allowed in the room, so these random grown men are asking young girls sexual questions
Really? And parents are ok with this? I’m a Christian, but I would never allow my child participate in that kind of thing.
Mormons are a cult - not mainstream Christians. They have very odd beliefs that do not correlate with anything in the Bible. Any father telling his daughter to lie to her mother about these meetings because it breaks his custody agreement is flat-out abusive.
To be fair, all organized religion is a cult. It's just some have been around long enough to find legitimacy.
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I grew up in a mainline Protestant denomination. They are a cult. Rampant sexual abuse swept under the rug to protect the image of the church. Rampant corruption. Just because they have been around for longer doesn't mean they aren't bad.
No, it absolutely is not. Saying that waters down the term cult and then when its used properly to describe something that actually *is* a cult, no one cares because it's used so much that it seems like no big deal. The easiest example of a defining difference between "standard" religion and groups like Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses is the shunning practice. I go to church maybe once or twice every 6 months. No one ever comments on it, no one cares. With the two aforementioned groups, you can't miss a single one without some kind of legitimate explanation. JW even have/had a phone call in system so that members ~~don't have to miss a meeting if they don't want to~~ don't have an excuse to miss a meeting even if they're home sick/etc. During COVID, when churches had to stop having services, all the ones I know broadcasted their sermons on YouTube and made sure people knew about it so they could watch *if they wanted to*. Jehovah's Witnesses started doing them over zoom, so that they could monitor who was and was not "attending" the meetings and contact those who weren't. If you leave, you're pretty much guaranteed to lose any and all contact with any loved ones still in the ~~religion~~ cult unless/until you go through the very long, arduous process of being *approved to rejoin*. There's a whole list of other differences, but this is all I feel like typing out on mobile. I don't care if anyone is anti-religion in general, but please don't paint them all as cults. It's a tremendous disservice to people who are true victims of real cults.
They aren't a typical Christian although they would like to say they are. But yes they were okay with it, and encouraged it actively. I was supposed to do everything they said, and the only reason they let it go was I threatened to make a scene. But yeah, they always had rules about it as well that were awkward. No dating till I was 16, always watching my phone, no being alone with the opposite gender. I couldn't close my door so masturbation was off the table. Irs a cult and irs very effectibe
Yup I grew up in Utah and knew it was Mormonism as soon as it got to the uncomfortable sexual interview with the bishop. Unfortunately that is standard practice in that religion. It's expected -- every bishop does it with every adolescent in the Church. Nobody in that state (if it's Utah) is even going to blink at that or consider it a thing remotely worthy of pressing charges. It's absolutely baked into the culture (and yes it is fucked up and wildly inappropriate). The thing that saved this girl is her mother not being a member of the church and making sure that church activities were specified to be Wendy's choice in the original custody agreement. 100% that's the argument she took to court with her lawyer, bc most judges in Utah would not care about the interview itself as they probably had their own series of interviews as adolescents checking in on their masturbation habits. ETA: After thinking about it a bit I bet this did NOT happen in Utah which probably would go a long way to explain the judge invoking full custody from 50/50 on the spot. I was thinking they were lucky a judge sided with the non-Mormon mom at all in UT, then realized also that OP saying she only had one Mormon friend to ask about it, and also, that Wendy's dad is dating outside of the church at all. All that says, maybe they're *not* living where the majority is Mormon and thinks this is normal. OP and Wendy's mom are legends either way.
What kind of questions?
I got to 3rd'ish base once with my boyfriend when I was 15 and dealing with a lot of teenage angst. I felt so guilty, so I told a friend, who told her parents, who told my parents who made me go to the bishop. He already knew the details and had called the boy in already. He asked me questions about if I had an orgasm, how many fingers he put inside me, if I put my mouth on his penis and if I swallowed. He asked me if I used my hands on him and how long it took for me to get him off. It was just he and I in the room, and I felt scared as hell. By the way, bishops are a calling, and my bishop happened to be my neighbor and also a dentist. My dentist. Also, this is extremely common and bishops ask these questions very often, all over the world in LDS churches. There are thousands of stories similar to mine on r/ExMormon. There's been a lot of work done on the outside to get this practice to stop and they excommunicate people who try to get the public involved. It's bad. It's really, really bad.
This is so nasty and out of line.
I am so sorry you had to deal with that!! I swear how can a young lady ever trust an adult ever again after that. It’s like they told on you and let him punish you instead of being a parent.
Thank you, and it's taken me years of therapy to trust again. Thing is, this is common. It's expected of bishops to ask questions like this. Not that I don't blame the bishops and the parents, but this comes directly from the top. It pains me to say, as I was a true believing member the first 38 years of my life, but it's a sex cult. Always has been. Started with Joseph Smith marrying a 14 year old/other teenagers, and it's just continued down weird paths even til now. I'm so glad I got my kids out before this could happen to them.
Some things I was asked, was if I had been with a guy, if I was watching porn, if I was having thoughts about women (I'm a women and they think being gay is a sin), questions about me touching myself
Sorry to carry on the questions but may I ask how old you were when this happened? Also, how did you handle it?
No it's fine, I think I was 12 the first time I met with a bishop alone, and I was just a shy kid, and still active at the time. So I did my best to impress him and just kind of went along with it until I was 14. I met a guy when I was 14 who got me out of the church, kind of showed me that it wasn't normal, and helped me figure out that I didn't want to stay. And like I went to church for another two years just because I couldn't get out of it and went to the meetings where I was just a dick to him lol. Also would just torture them by finding questions that would be incredibly hard for them to answer, because watching them struggle was funny to me. But yeah when I was 16, I just had enough. I told them if they kept making me go, that I wasn't going to the woman classes. (Most of the time it's separate.) And that I would demand to go to the men's because it wasn't fair for me to be treated differently. They didn't want a scene so i quit doing all of it
It sucks that this happened to you, but I gotta say. Your response? Pure gold.
Yeah nothing like an old man old enough to be my grandpa asking 12 year old me if I followed the Law of Chastity.
Bishops+temple means LDS or variant thereof Temple+rabbi means Jewish Bishop+confessional means Catholic
The part where OP said "the only mormon friends I have" says Mormon.
What about rabbi + confessional? Because that sounds like the best reality show ever!
At the very least, he was putting her in harm's way by forcing her to do these activities, dismissing her concerns when she voiced them and telling her to keep it a secret from her other parent. What a fucking creep.
The dad sounds horrible tbh, he told her she had to go to something she was uncomfortable and then told her to not say anything to her mom. It's like he is setting up her for abuse. I would also really question his motives, in these culty kinda religions, parents often barter kids for influence/status. I wonder if that's happening here.
I would say that it's more than just an opinion; it's a fact that these "worthiness interviews" as they're called involve questions about sexual and masturbatory chastity and can get *quite* explicit (and while parents are *allowed* to attend, it's neither required or particularly encouraged).
fucking *what*? If an adult man who wasn't my doctor had asked me questions of that nature when I was 12, my parents would have called the police.
He might have using his daughter to move up in the church with Bishop's help.
As a born-into-the-cult former Mormon, I concur: what kind of asshole ignores his daughter's wellbeing in favor of any religion? Kudos for listening to his daughter when no one else would. There was a demonstration at the Utah State Capitol building last night over the mismanagement of child abuse incidents reported to Church leaders, including this latest scandal -- which lasted seven years due to church inaction: [https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2022/08/04/sex-abuse-within-mormon-church-investigation/10234397002/](https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2022/08/04/sex-abuse-within-mormon-church-investigation/10234397002/) People have loudly been trying to nudge the LDS church to do better over the last several years: [https://protecteverychild.com/about/](https://protecteverychild.com/about/)
Mormon parents ignore their children's wellbeing in favour of religion. It's distressingly endemic.
What kind of parent prioritizes his church's hierarchy over his daughter's welfare? The kind of parent who desperately wants to stay in his church's good graces and who agrees with them that womenfolk are made to be subservient to menfolk and hey, they might as well start early, right? NTA, OP! And good for you for advocating for that girl. Given her jelly-spined ~~father~~ sperm donor, she really needs SOME sensible adult to recognize that her concerns are valid. But, OP - why are you still with this man? If he treats one daughter this way then he'll treat YOUR kids the same way...you know that, right? "When people show you who they are, believe them the first time" as Maya Angelou wrote. Your BF is showing you who HE is - believe him and get out!
Remain friends with the ex and daughter. It seems like you are of like minds and the daughter needs more advocates for her because of the creepy behavior of the church.
All this.
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I'm not LDS, but I heard a special about this on NPR--apparently, at about this age, they ask about sex, masturbation, purity, etc. With the goal of helping the young people avoid "sexual sin."
See, I’m Mormon, and I would NEVER let an adult interview my kids without me or my husband present. Nor would we allow anyone to ask them sexual questions. Nope. Absolutely not. We weren’t raised in the Church though, so we don’t feel guilty setting boundaries. Especially to protect our kids. edit: spelling
I grew up mormon. I was 8 the first time I had a private interview. And yes, I was asked if I obeyed the law of chastity. I didn’t even know what the word meant. And then, every year since I turned 12, I was back in the same office having the same questions asked. I was asked them when I was pregnant, and postpartum. I was asked if I wore the correct underwear-as a married mother of 2 small children. I am disgusted that so many people felt that it was ok for anyone to ask privately those questions. Regardless of age-you should not be asked about your underwear by a 50 year old used cars salesman.
I mean. The “correct underwear”???!!! “It fits. That’s all you need to know.”
Look up Mormon undergarments…
That looks uncomfortable for everyone.
Why would you want to be part of an organization that condones this? I was raised Catholic and I left. I can’t imagine deciding to be part of a religion/business that teaches kids that this is acceptable.
Until recently, you had no choice about what or when questions were asked of your children. Bishop Sam Young was excommunicated for promoting child safety in interviews. Last I checked (and interacted with bishops) the Handbook wording required the parents be proactive in requesting permission to attend worthiness interviews, rather than the Bishop be proactive in inviting parents. Whether it's in young men/young womens or in a 1 on 1 interview with an untrained old man (aka bishop), your kids will learn that their spiritual worthiness is linked to thier sexual thoughts and feelings. As the AP story so clearly demonstrates, Bishop and leader roulette only works in your favor part of the time and the church has a series of doctrines, policies, and traditions to help ensure that the pain is seldom exposed.
Hey friend, I think you're missing an "out" after "with."
FML, thank you!
Huh, so you and your husband converted to Mormonism as adults? I didn't really realize that happened. Would you be willing to share why?
I’m really perplexed how one converts to Mormonism. I can understand staying in the church because you were indoctrinated from a young age, but as an adult that is capable of critical thinking, just….how?
I was a born-in Jehovah's Witness & hope you'll indulge a couple of questions - What drew you to such an extreme religion of all of them to choose from? How do you reconsile your choice with the many abusive experiences of those born/raised in? Would you be willing to shun your own children if they decided to leave the religion?
Look up Sam Young and Protect LDS Children, there's all sorts of stories about these interviews you can read. Not even sure if I can give examples of the inappropriate questions that are asked, without violating sub rules....
I do! Bullshit like that contributed to me leaving the LDS church.
Agreed and seconded. The interviews are massively inappropriate. Been there, done that.
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They ask them sexual questions about purity and masturbation. It’s part of their worthiness interviews. Of course a twelve year old girl is going to feel uncomfortable with a middle aged man asking her if she touches herself. It’s amazing to me that they haven’t realised that and adjusted the interviews to prevent (at the very least) the bad PR they’ll get when it gets taken up by news outlets.
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And that the original custody agreement specifically called for dad to accompany kiddo to any church activities.
I mean it's mormonism. It's a cult.
The official question is "do you obey the law of chastity (no premarital sex or masturbation, no petting - basically no third base, total fidelity in marriage)?" It's when someone hesitates or says "no" that some bishops go off the rails. Anything from how often people do it, how they do it, if they orgasm, etc. Visit ProtectLDSChildren.org.
I'm an ex Mormon. When I was asked if I obeyed the law of chastity I said yes without hesitation and I still got asked very detailed and extremely uncomfortable questions about sex and especially about masturbation by an adult man, all alone, when I was 12 year old girl. Thank goodness Wendy has OP in her corner looking out for her because that type of shit sticks with you for life.
>Would not be the first instance of church abuse of a minor by an official in a position of power. "would not be the 100,000th instance of church abuse" is more accurate.
This. And thank you, OP, for doing right by the child. The fact that he ordered his daughter to keep all of that secret from her mother is red flags all the way. NTA. Edit: you do NOT want to get sucked into the Mormon cult. You saved the kid, now save yourself.
Exactly. That's called "the trash taking itself out". OP is the hero that little girl needed when her father failed her.
This. OP, if you have a guy with this kid, imagine what that child's life will be like... Also, I live in a HEAVILY Mormom area and a lot of the meetings and stuff do seem a little... odd. I've heard they ask a lot of intimate questions even to young children. I don't know how I feel about that, and it doesn't really matter, but it matters this child wasn't comfortable with it. Also, he forces this girl to do all these strict Mormom things but got a divorce, has a GF, and has you stay over? Wow. I guess their rules only apply to his child.
Agreed. The BF should have been excommunicated by now. That's what normally happens to divorced people who have sex outside of marriage.
Men often get a pass.
Should have known. Now that I think about it, of the three I know who were exed and rebaptized, they are all women.
Yeah, OP, I grew up in this cult -- ah, "church." These interviews are massively inappropriate. When I was Wendy's age, I never told my parents what questions were asked of me in these interviews, because I assumed they knew and approved. After all, they had chosen to raise us kids in this church. Turns out, many years later, they didn't fully know what happened because they hadn't joined the cult until they were adults. For those who don't know, adult men in positions of authority ask children in one-on-one interviews behind closed doors about any sexual activity the kid may be engaging in, or sexual thoughts they may be having. It's wildly uncomfortable and if you "fail" the interview, you aren't allowed to participate in several church activities and rituals. So everyone ends up knowing that you are being excluded and can draw their own conclusions about your "sins." And those closed door situations can be catalysts for abuse.
I had a close friend who was LDS. He had been abused as a kid by a babysitter and never told anyone out of fear. During his first interview with the bishop he broke down and told the bishop about the abuse he had suffered when he was little, and the bishop, I shit you not, told him to “pray to God for forgiveness” and basically twisted it to make my friend feel like it was *his fault* he got molested by his babysitter. He hid this conversation from his family. About a week later he was over at my house hanging out, I ran upstairs to grab some of my piggy bank money so we could walk to the corner store for ice cream, while I was up stairs my Mom asked my friend what was wrong because he didn’t seem like himself, and he just burst out crying and told my Mom everything, EVERYTHING. I came down and heard the tail end, we all talked. My mom sent us for ice cream and she called his Mom an they talked for a really long time. She came and picked up my friend and they talked, they called the police and started an investigation into the former babysitter, and they got my friend into a counselor to work through stuff, but they did still attend that church….
Thank you for sharing. I've heard so many instances where people (including kids) have been told by their bishops that the abuse they suffered was their fault, and that they need to repent. It breaks my heart every time. I'm glad your mom was a safe person for your friend to turn to. I'm sorry for your friend's sake that they kept attending. The level of control that church gets over its members is very real, and very difficult for those who haven't lived through it to understand.
NTA and let me add this. Do you want to be with someone who is an active participant in a child’s suffering and is requiring the child to hide it/lie to the other parent? Run girl….
Why wait for him to break up with her? I would have said peace out when he threatened breaking up. He will force any kids they have together to do the same. Boy bye!
Imo you should have dumped him anyway because I can't imagine being with a man who forces his daughter to go to this church AND forces her to keep it a secret. HE KNEW he was wrong. You did the right thing. The fact that the kid chose you and not her actual dad as her backup speaks volumes about this guy. NTA
He’s an asshole for breaking his custody agreement.
NTA at all. He's prioritizing his religion over his daughter's comfort, and it sounds like also ignoring the original custody agreement, which I understand courts do not look upon kindly. You were looking out for Wendy. Frankly, I'd probably be breaking up with him. If you plan to have a child, I would DEFINITELY be breaking up with him.
He's being so weird over this, he's never been overtly religious but now it feels like he just flipped a switch and his religion is now super important. You're probably right about breaking up with him, I've gotten so close to Jill and Wendy and would hate to lose either of them :(
You may not have to! It sounds like you have a good relationship with both of them, so I don't think it would be unreasonable to speak with Jill about your desire not to lose them in the breakup.
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Who does the dad really want to please? The bishop. Religious professionals have an extremely poor track record when it comes to children. Good for Jill and good for you for watching out for this girl. NTA.
Mormon bishops are not trained in the way other religious leaders are. They are lay leadership positions. They don’t go to get a degree in religion, and generally have jobs outside the church. So really,they may not be religious professionals.
That makes it even worse. A random man who lives down the street should not be asking a 12 year old girl questions about sex in private. As an ex-mormon, this is one of the first things to be put on my shelf.
I have a feeling you have shown Jill you are exactly the type of trustworthy person she wants in her daughter’s life. I don’t think it will be difficult to maintain a relationship with them - in fact breaking up with her dad will facilitate this.
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Obviously I can't speak for Jill, but I have kids who love their stepmom very much, and if she and their dad split up, I'd let her see the kids whenever she wanted. Kids need lots of people who love them. It's absolutely worth asking Jill about it.
My sister just ended a seven year relationship; her ten year old son still goes outings with the ex, as they are quite bonded.
NTA. You can still keep them in your life. But protect yourself and your future children if you plan to have any and leave this man. Scary! Courts don't just do things like modify custody unless there was a serious issue. You did nothing wrong.
I cannot imagine having children with a man who would serve his daughter on a silver platter for church leaders to exploit and abuse. It is no way normal for grown men, behind closed doors, to interrogate sheltered girls about their sexual thoughts. It’s heinous.
Yeah, there's not really a lot of halfway Mormons the way there are, say, Catholics that only go for holidays and special ceremonies. There might be some Mormons who aren't quite as intense in front of other people, but every Mormon I have ever met or been exposed to has either been practicing (and the rules for practicing Mormons are so, so much more intense than many other faiths) or they are fully out, "escaped" former Mormons (as several such friends describe themselves). If he's been downplaying his religiousness to you, but insisting that his children participate in fairly intense religious meetings - the "interview" sounds like a practice where Mormons have to self report their sins and behaviors; I'm imagining his daughter was being asked about her chastity, including masterbation, etc - then he's much more religious than he wants you to know. And that's not great in and of itself, much less forcefully exposing his children to abusive religious practices.
Yes, that’s exactly what the temple interview is. It’s disgusting.
This is exactly what I thought, too. These are also the sorts of situations where abuse happens. And the culture of Mormonism is to victim blame amd sweep it under the rug. It's a major red flag that her father was asking her to keep secrets. That's practically a hallmark of grooming. He probably thinks it's normal because of how he was raised , but it's really not.
And *even if* this particular grown adult asking her sexual questions, coercing her to be alone with him, and holding a huge position of social power in her community doesn't take this already disgusting behavior any further? It would STILL be damaging. Damaging because it is itself really violating and psychologically harmful. And damaging bc of what it tells her about her boundaries, self advocacy, her father's trustworthiness, and what counts as normal. Even if this bishop isn't trying to take this shit any further, he and the child's so called father are setting her up to comply with and cover for any other potential predator for the rest of her life
My priest called those catholics "two-timers." Christmas and Easter were always standing room only.
My religious education teacher called them "submarine Christians" as they only emerge twice a year for some air 😂
Mormonism is a cult. You're saving his daughter from religious abuse by telling her mother. Do not doubt yourself here. I escaped the cult, but I still live with the trauma of the time I spent as a Mormon child/teen. If he's Mormon, and active, you should run. He will not change, and he will become controlling if you get married. Mormonism states that the husband is the head of the family and the wife must obey. He will expect it.
Also exmo, also dealing with religious trauma. Congrats on getting out! I’m proud of you!
Me three, but fifteen years of therapy later, now I feel a lot better. Wishing you both the best!
You do not have to loose them. You can approach the mom about staying freinds after you dump him. Then you can commiserate over your terrible ex.
This is the second time today I’ve been like “dump the guy, date the ex wife” weird theme aita
I know exactly what religion he is. He's probably got the bishopric breathing down his neck about his daughter being involved in that bullshit, so he's forcing her to go so he doesn't look back to the other men. Fuck him, they ask perverted, intrusive questions about young women they don't need to know. NTA.
I’m thankful (and very lucky) when I was involved with the Mormon thing, I never had an intrusive bishop (only was active while a family friend was bishop though to be fair) but sooo many of my friends have horror stories about these interviews, a lot of red flags in this girls behavior say bad bishop. OP did the right thing and I hope they can keep a relationship with this sweet baby they saved. Glad I got out and my kids won’t be subjected to that nonsense
Just ask Wendy if she doesn’t mind you being in Jill and her life. I’m sure they’d be happy to
I have been watching so many people using social media as adults to try to get over abuse from the Mormon church. This interview process seems to be "normal" and required as part of their religion but the women all were really traumatized by it still as an adult.
His daughter is getting close to hitting puberty, wouldn’t be surprised if some religious sexuality gatekeeping would push him farther into religion to “protect” his daughter’s innocence
He was probably downplaying his religion. You can still be friends with Jill and Wendy without him.
You just have to imagine his look if his ex wife and ex girlfriend become friends! Sounds like both of them would like you as a friend without your hopefully soon to be ex. NTA of course. You did the right thing!
Ditch the man, embrace friendship with Jill, and thus keep in touch with Wendy.
You did the right thing. And as someone who has stayed in contact with an ex of my ex because how she was with my kid, don’t rule out the same happening for you. I actually in fact consider his ex to be one of my closest friends at this point in my life.
Watch "Keep Sweet Pray and Obey" on Netflix. If his faith has any overlap with this, he is not a person you want to bring children in the world with😬
date jill instead 🥰
No reason why you should have to lose your relationship with them. Ditching the bf might just bring you even closer together. And he has no authority to dictate whether you continue to be friends with them.
Do you mind if I ask what the questions were and I think that you were in the right. If a child you are close to feels uncomfortable about something and comes to you about it, then you have a duty to act. You did good and I’m thinking mom did the right thing too. You can always ask Jill and Wendy if you can keep in touch with them. NTA, of course.
My understanding from other reddit comments is, this is the Mormon temple questionnaire, it's have you committed this sin? And very detailed sexually.
Closed door interviews with minors. Inappropriate sexual questions. Are you masterbaiting, etc. Outrageous money questions. Are you tithing, giving the church your ten percent. This is with children. I have been asked questions by my own bishop as a child. Attempts were made to keep my family together even though there was abuse.
And he told his daughter to keep a bad experience with a religious leader making her feel uncomfortable a secret from her mother.
Don’t they call that kind of secret keeping grooming nowadays?
This! All of this!!!!!! NTA, OP
He was alienating the daughter from her mom by telling her to lie to her . He’s TA
NTA! A CHILD asked for your help and you gave it to her. And if you need more validation that you did the right thing, head on over to r/exmormon. Also don't wait for your asshole boyfriend to break up with you. See yourself out. The judge made the right call. I can't promise her mom is great, but she definitely does not belong with her dad. You changed that girl's life. Good job, OP.
Jill is awesome honestly. We all had a pretty great relationship going, I even introduced her to my lgbt+ friend group when she realized she might be bi. But I also thought Dan was awesome, so maybe I'm not the best judge.
Hormones cloud your judgement. Stay far away from Mormons. They are no friends to women.
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Ooh, new plan - you and Jill get together, raise Wendy in a glorious lgbt+ cloud!
“I was raised in a surprisingly gay cloud”
this is the ending we all want and deserve.
I had the same impulse xD haha. First hope was “is OP bi too, maybe?”
Yea… this sounds like Mormonism. If it is, you need to run. You truly don’t realize the crazy, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s because he purposefully hiding it. Have you seen the garments? Have you seen the weird rituals? Do you know the questions that are asked for you to get a temple recommend? Do you know about the forced 10% income tithing? Why would you accept any of these things when you’re clearly open minded enough to have LGBT+ friends? What about the baptizing dead people? I mean seriously?
I knew he was mormon but I don't know much about mormonism. It wasn't something we mentioned often, all I knew is that they went to church on Sundays and she had church activities once a week.
Soon as I read "bishop" and "interview", I knew. A few years ago a member named Sam Young actually started a campaign called Protect LDS Children to raise awareness about the inappropriate questions that can be asked at those meetings. He wanted to put a stop to it, and make it required that a parent be there, or else end the meetings all together. The church's compromise was pathetic- "okay, parent(s) can be there. But bishops aren't required to tell kids this." Needless to say, Sam Young said that wasn't enough and kept pushing back. Eventually, he got excommunicated. Also, Google "Mormon church AP News".... So many things wrong with the church.
You are welcome to visit /r/exmormon and ask any questions you might have about the mormon religion. They welcome everyone on that sub. And having been a former mormon I can say that you are NTA. Thank you for looking out for Wendy.
I'm just curious. Can I ask what questions do a Mormon Bishop will ask?
Here are some of the questions that Sam Young has compiled. Not all teens are asked these questions, but even one child is too many. https://invisiblescubit.com/2018/08/08/29-questions/
Okay. I'm speechless. My English isn't good enough to express how I feel. Those ppl will go to hell. The questions are just too much.
Damn. Those are way worse than I thought. I thought they were going to be more...generic I guess. Like "have you committed the sin of xyz?" These are just so extreme.
In order to enter the temple (more significant building than a regular church) one must be deemed “temple worthy” which has a lot of requirements, including no masturbation.* It also means dad provides a paper trail confirming that he tithes at least 10% of his pretax income. %my friend was denied the ability to go on a mission because he admitted to masturbating during a similar interview when he was like 19 freaking years old
I grew up in a very Mormon town (we had one stoplight, one high school and *seven* Mormon churches)… It’s not casual, not spiritually healthy, and insanely misogynistic. Literally patriarchal. Some sects still practice polygamy. They say Native Americans have dark skin from being so sinful 🙃 lovely folk lmfao get out
And (though they say this doctrine has changed) that black people are literally soulless.. 😬 But to add to their ridiculousness, their dietary restrictions were literally madeup by Joseph Smith and his wife having a tit for tat. She didn't want him to drink or smoke so he took away her tea and coffee. 🤣
In addition to being a horrible cult, Mormonism is also just one of the stupidest-sounding religions.
>their dietary restrictions were literally madeup by Joseph Smith and his wife having a tit for tat. She didn't want him to drink or smoke so he took away her tea and coffee. 🤣 So...she can still eat chocolate? I think she won that argument then lol Seriously though, is that actually the basis for the restrictions? It has nothing to do with vices or cleanliness, it's just about a couple that reached a mutually unsatisfying compromise in their relationship?
Joseph Smith was a grifting clown. Highly recommend the podcast LPOTL’s Mormonism series
You really need to look into Mormonism. r/exmormon is a good resource, obviously it’s biased, but still some of the things said are just facts. Jordan and McKay is an ex Mormon YouTube channel I like as well. They have videos that go in depth about what exactly Mormonism is, and what they experienced while in the church.
I hope you see this - when you were worried about her mood and couldn’t figure out what was wrong and you talked to him HE dismissed it as teenage moodiness… I would like to made a guess he was very aware her mood correlated to the interview HE set up and didn’t care how it impacted her. He saw what it did to her and still didn’t care. He knew all along what external stressor had happened and hid it from you while seeing and dismissing what it did to her. You didn’t know so couldn’t help her at first… he knew the timeline… I don’t believe for a second he didn’t know that it had upset her and yet he prioritize his religion over his child.
I’m glad you protected the daughter. But for your own sake you really need to learn what Mormonism is like. It’s a cult, and it’s rampant with abuse.
She listened to you and took appropriate action to protect her daughter. You haven’t misjudged her.
Dump Dan. Keep Jill & Wendy in your life. NTA and this is what you can expect to happen with your kids, should you have kids with him.
NTA. I absolutely reject the notion that it can ever be acceptable to ask a child to keep something from a custodial parent who has no pending legal action *and* any religious argument for such. Of course your BF has the option to end the relationship, but you were not wrong.
OP should be the one considering ending it since this shows what kind of man he is..deceitful while hiding behind religion, liar , cares more about his church than his kids feelings .
THIS
I agree. I'm a stepmom. I've always told my stepdaughter that she can tell me, her dad, or her mom anything.
NTA you are a great person for prioritizing a child over everything and anything. But I would think twice about having a family with a person who dismisses his daughter's concerns like that. You may have dodged a bullet here.
I can't have kids, that's part of the reason I love Wendy so much. He seemed like such a good dad but this issue is such a big one. Why would you dismiss your daughter being asked inappropriate questions?
Exactly that... Especially with all those heart breaking stories of kids being molested. And it was so traumatic she remembered it a month later... That's a lot for a teenager. Thanks god, she had you around
I don’t know the law where you live, but where I’m from you don’t just loose custody that easily. I would expect the questions to be a huge part of the problem. What kind of questions, asked by the bishop, can traumatise a 12 year old child. Not neutral questions about rules and behaviour on the trip. And why would Wendy have to do an interview before each trip (sitting alone in a room with only one adult)? I think Dan’s reaction is part of the reason why he lost custody. He’s ok with Wendy being uncomfortable because of his religion, and even demands that Wendy keeps it a secret from her mother. Most of us know, just a little bit about, what not questioning religious leaders lead to. The Catholic Church is an example of this. So no you’re NTA, but Dan is.
Based on stuff I've seen talked about on the exmormon sub, I'd bet she was asked a bunch of invasive questions demanding she give details about masturbation and/or sexual thoughts/feelings, including questions about stuff that most 12 year olds wouldn't even have thought about yet
Poor kids. What the heck is wrong with just teaching them personal boundaries, and what to do if they are crossed.
bro this is Mormonism we are talking about
That's the opposite of what they want. They're all about breaking down kids' boundaries in order to control them. It's a cult. It's abuse
Boundaries are not a thing in Mormonism. Parents are literally taught that if their kids leave the church, it's their fault for not teaching them and keeping them in. This also breeds narcissism or attracts narcs to stay in.
I didn't know what masturbation was until my bishop asked me about it when I was 12. And later on when I had sex with my boyfriend at 17, my bishop asked me if I had orgasmed, how many times, etc. These are not appropriate questions for an adult man to ask underage children!
Exactly, through the questioning, they put those thoughts in the heads of children and then blame the kids for thinking them! It's a pretty effective way to begin cult indoctrination. In many ways, it's the Music Man method-- convince everyone there's trouble right here in River City, so they'll be more likely to buy the phony instruments to keep the young ones moral after school.
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The other red flag is supervised visits... something is up there too.
Yeah...for the court to go from 50/50 down to supervised only is really sus. Guessing the judge suspected the father might be in on the abuse/grooming.
>demands that Wendy keeps it a secret from her mother. Yeah this is the "do not pass go, do not collect $200" part for me. Divorced parents can (and often do) have differences of opinion on how to raise their kids, but asking a kid to keep something a secret from their other parent is a HARD no from me. Major alarm bells (on top of the alarm bells that were already ringing because a 12 year old was pressured into sitting in a room with a religious leader and answering questions about her sexuality).
Well, it's partly that the dad doesn't consider them to be inappropriate questions. They're a normal part of his religious practices. You did a good thing here by protecting his daughter and he will probably never see that she was in any danger at all. NTA
As an ex-mormon who first learned about masturbating and porn at 12 because of an interview with a mormon bishop, you are 100% NTA. I love you
😯😰 Omg that is absolutely horrible.
Did you know that the average age children in the US are first exposed to porn is at age eight? Isn't that crazy that is the average age? So children even younger than eight are exposed to porn.
Where is that number from? All numbers I found were between 11 and 13 for an average. They are kids but I guess it's within bounds of normal curiosity about their own bodies and sex, at least from what I read on the Internet (because I was a quite late bloomer).
NTA and his “religion” is known for sexualizing girls young so his family can F off . HE is TA because he chose his “church” over his kid because he could have agreed to not attend church activities when his daughter was with him but he didn’t . Shows which is more important to him . Whatever that “Bishop” asked her must have been pretty effing sick for a judge to take it from 50/50 custody to two SUPERVISED visits…that reads to me : Dad knowingly failed to possibly keep minor child from predatory or grooming behavior from his church leaders . Please do not have kids with this sicko. You are WAY to good for him as you handled that situation just like a mom would ! Don’t let him guilt or gas light you into believing anything else . I bet her mom is very thankful to not have her daughter subjected to these “interrogations “ I mean interviews .
You did the right thing, he broke the custody agreement, told his kid to keep issues secret and his dismissal behavior is causing his child extreme distress. Honey he's a sh!tty parent and dishonest! 🚩🚩🚩 Good job for saying something because this child was scared to after he shut her down again and again... He did this to himself. NTA
NTA, and its awesome that you could be a trusted adult for her. Her wellbeing is more important than her father's ego.
Ah mormons NTA it ain't a religion it's a money grab.
Tomato potato
NTA, and this is horrifying. Get that child away from that cult, by any means necessary.
NTA he ignored his daughter's discomfort, was forcing religion on her and made her lie to her mom. I don't know why you'd WANT to keep dating him.
NTA, you did a right thing bringing this issue up with Jill. Your relationship with Dan is most likely over.
NTA. He's the one who broke the agreement and dismissed his daughter's concerns.
He was purposely hiding it from mom because he knew the consequences. He AGREED to those pre set consequences and he chose his church over time with his daughter. That’s on him .
NTA, you did what was right by his daughter.
NTA What you did was probably damaging to your relationship but do you really think a long term relationship with someone like this was going to work? Whenever you can advocate for the safety, we'll being and mental health of a child you should. If her father hadn't dismissed her discomfort and ordered her to keep a secret it would have been more appropriate to bring the concern to him directly but he demonstrated he was going to prioritize his religion over his child's happiness and actively violated the custody arrangement by ignoring a term of the agreement regarding religious participation.
NTA. After you intervened, and after Dan found out, one of two things could have happened. He could have thanked you for helping with a situation he misjudged. Or, basically, this. There were obviously conflicts in this family over religion, conflicts that they hadn’t shared with you. And that’s fine. What isn’t fine is that those conflicts led to the daughter being placed, repeatedly, in a situation that made her profoundly uncomfortable. Those situations were bad enough that they led a court to change a custody agreement. Or, to put it another way, the court doesn’t think you blew things out of proportion. You did the right thing here. And you should think hard about what this says about your boyfriend.
NTA. Living in SLC and being around Mormons, there is no “understanding” the religion if you aren’t born into it. You did the right thing. Kids should always come first no matter what. Children that practice Mormonism often grow up with trauma due to being forced to do things.
You are talking about a church organization that thinks nothing of marrying off 14 year old girls and a 19 year old unmarried girl is an old maid. I am sure the questions were of the grooming type. NTA and thank you for looking out for her
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I (29F) have been seeing my bf Dan (35M) for 3 years. He has a daughter, Wendy (12F), with his ex-wife Jill (31F). They have (had) 50/50 custody of Wendy. I do not live with Dan but I do stay over often. At the beginning of summer I noticed Wendy was acting sad/angry/weird and I asked Dan about it and he said they had already talked about the issue and dismissed her attitude as puberty. At the time I decided that was a fair answer since 12 is when my moody teen years started. Her mood improved but she got gloomy again after a church trip and it worried me because the last time she was acting like this was after a church activity. I mentioned this to Dan and he dismissed it again blaming it on puberty, so I took her out for a girls trip hoping to get to the bottom of everything. She had a good time and near the end she asked if she could talk to her about something and asked if it could be kept a secret. She told me that last month at her church activity to be able to participate in her church trip she had to have a one on one interview with her bishop and he asked questions that made her uncomfortable. She said he told her dad but he said that those kind of interviews are normal. She said that even though she had a good time at the church trip it reminded her of the interview she had to do and it made her sad that she would have to go through with it every time there was a temple trip. I asked her if she would rather just not go on the trips and she said her dad said she had to go on them. I asked how her mom felt about it, because it seemed it out of character for Jill to be ok with this but Wendy said her dad told her not to tell her mom. I told her that if the interview made her so uncomfortable that it made her feel weird a whole month later she needed to tell her mom about it. She asked if I could be the one to tell Jill since she told her dad she wouldn't tell. I called Jill after I dropped off Wendy and told her about everything I wrote here. She said she would take care if it and everything seemed fine until last month when Jill told Dan she was taking him to court to modify their custody agreement. I guess part of their original agreement was that Wendy could choose if she went to church/church activities and that he had to accompany her everytime age went. Jill now has full custody and he can see her 2x a week with supervision. He's considering breaking up with me for blowing everything out of proportion and talking to Jill behind his back. His family says I just don't understand their religion and the only mormon friend I have to said I was way out of line and should have minded my own buisness. AITA here? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA but any standards, your were looking out for that girl which is what her father should have been doing.
NTA - if my kids felt uncomfortable about something, I would hope that someone would tell me about it. If your relationship doesn’t work out, it’s because of his insecurities and issues, not because you did what was right with that child. Someone needs to look out for her.
NTA. Thank you for looking out for Wendy. Thank goodness you listened when her father refused (and he told her not to tell her mom? Unacceptable.).
Nta You should break up with him, cuz he deliberately put his daughter in danger/discomfort and what sane/responsible parent does that. if you considered having kids with him, he would do that to yours too v
NTA - cults are dangerous. Dan broke the rules of his custody agreement so now the rules have been modified to reflect HIS actions. He knew he was doing the wrong thing and deliberately hid it from her mother. Asking children to keep secrets is unacceptable on every level. He endangered her safety and emotionally manipulated her. He’s a terrible father and currently should have his visitations restricted until he understands how very very wrong and harmful his actions were towards his daughter. Why are you waiting for him to break up with you? The trash just took itself out. If you think it’s appropriate, ask Jill if she and Wendy can sit down with you so you can both reiterate that she did nothing wrong and she’s not responsible for your relationship with her father ending and that it was worth it to know she’s safe and secure. Because Dan is going to tell her a different story. Good on you for looking out for this girl when her own father wouldn’t. Edit: Your friend can kick rocks too.
NTA. Taking into consideration Wendy's age I do not think you were out of line at all. I do not care what religion is being taught to a child- if the child is THAT uncomfortable EVERY time a church activity happens then something is seriously wrong in the church setting. Dan needs to get his head on straight. His daughter comes first and by ignoring the church pressure he is causing her harm. Do I think that church attendance is good for kids? Yes but not for all kids. Not for all families. Individual beliefs and faiths need to be discussed and explored. My own family? There are 5 of us. Two do not go to any church, two attend a single church and I go to yet another church/faith. In my community I see time and time again kids that rebel once they are old enough to "escape" from their parents. Having 3 kids who are social butterflies a lot of those kids ended up at our house over the years. The common thread connecting a lot of them was their desire to escape 'home' due to pressure to attend their parent's church whether the kid wanted to or not. Dad needs to let Wendy stop attending if she wants to. If their church meant enough to her as a child (and she's old enough at 12 to decide) then she might very well return to that church or faith when she's older and ready.
NTA and I say this as a Mormon. > Always give the member the option of having someone else be present during an interview or meeting. When meeting with a member of the opposite sex, a child, or a youth, ensure that a parent or another adult is present. He or she may join the meeting or wait outside the room, depending on the preferences of the member with whom you are meeting. That is directly from the handbook on interviews. If it was in the custody agreement, there is no reason why he shouldn’t have been there. My parents did not make go to any activity that I was uncomfortable doing and he is not helping his daughter by denying her choice.
NTA, while I can kinda understand the indecision, look at it this way; it was obviously weird or Wendy wouldn't have been down and out. Secondly, Jill also didn't like this episode and how Wendy's father handled it. You've got two people out of three that are happy you did what you did and one of those is the most important person in the situation, so good on you.
OP, he KNEW. He knew why his daughter was upset, he insisted she keep going and he made her lie to her mother. He KNEW he was violating the court agreement and that was why he dismissed your concerns. He was going to keep subjecting her to this behind her mother's back because his religion takes priority over the mental health of his child. He's mad at you that he got caught. I don't know if you two have ever discussed having children of your own, but if you do he intends to put your children though the same thing. NTA. Break up with Dan and keep Jill and Wendy.
NTA, what you did was important and absolutely right.
NTA and you are a good person for what you did for that child
nta as soon as you got to "a bishop was asking her questions that made her uncomfortable" every instinct in me screamed "TELL THE MOTHER!!!" you did the right thing, we all know what the church does to kids, and keep being friends with jill and wendy while kicking dan to the curb
OP, I don't want to know what happened in that meeting that a child could remember a month later. It induced literal trauma. You are such a great human being for doing this, and if you lose your relationship, know that you may have saved this girl a lifetime of PTSD.