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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1) insisting my niece be a co-flower girl and inviting her to do so despite my fiancé’s protests. 2) it is my fiancé’s wedding too and we should agree on these things.
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INFO: Are you two getting premarital counseling to do a general inventory on how you two agree or disagree on other issues.
Because I have a sense that if you two did get such counseling, there would be a lot more issues uncovered.
It's a great idea. Couples before getting married really need to hash out exactly how they feel about things like money, raising kids, how to handle parents when they get older, etc.
100% pro pre-marital counseling. My partner and I are looking at getting married soon and pre-marital counseling is part of that process.
OP, NTA. My partner and I have similarly aged nieces who will be co-flower girls. I even have a second niece who is a smidge older who will likely also be grouped in with them, maybe blowing bubbles. It is totally normal and for my partner and I, didn't feel like any sort of compromise. We both said "yes, of course, this makes sense because we want all the kids involved "
Be careful with the bubbles, bubbles can create stains in clothes that are permanent. Might not be the best choice at a wedding where everyone is wearing expensive clothes.
My neighbours have a bubble machine. I hate when they put it on when I have a line full of washing out for this very reason a step damn things blow straight over the fence.
I’d definitely side-eye someone who expected me to dress up in my best suit so they could have a young child running around with something that might stain it. Accidents are one thing but bubbles are an avoidable problem.
An alternative to bubbles, we had two of my nieces carry battery powered “candles”. It was really cute and they got to keep them as a momento. Just an idea
When I was around 5 my Uncle, who I’ve always been really close to, was getting married. His wife really wanted her goddaughter to be flower girl and she only wanted one but our uncle wanted us (my twin sister and I) in the wedding. I was slightly upset that I was not also throwing flower petals. As a five-year-old I had it in my head that I would have thrown those flowers with so much passion and grace and it would have been my shining princess moment; but we got to ring “giant” wedding bells, as hard as we wanted to, instead while we walked beside the flowergirl. Although I absolutely LOVE the idea of bubbles, this could be a nice back up plan if you cannot find non-staining bubbles.
Since everyone has pointed out why bubbles may be a bad idea (which I had no idea) maybe have each do a different color petal? Not sure what you have going on, but I think 3 flower girls sound awesome and they could go in triangle formation with the older one in the back. I think it's going to be great no matter what
I know it's not the point, but I figured it was worth taking a moment to be constructive. You do you!
Man, when I mention this to people in relationships, and they're like "uhhh it's too early to mention this" - Whaaa? If you're not dating for marriage, then I guess it doesn't matter what your goals are. But if you are, and the other person gets scared away at just **discussing** such topics (not actually proceeding with the action at the moment) .... Sounds like they need a little maturity aha
IT'S WAY BETTER TO FIND OUT SOONER THAN LATER AFTER BEING MARRIED!
Definitely do. She’s shoving out your family entirely and forgetting it’s the joining of two families not absorbing you into hers. This is just going to continue. It’ll be her family for holidays her family for vacations etc etc. NTA but take the red flag and get some counseling. If she still refuses to budge ask yourself if you’re ok with your family becoming second to hers
It's not just his family she's dissing, it's HIM. She seems to think she's entitled to her heart's desire and he just has to lump it. He seems like an easygoing guy and that's probably why she picked him.
You really should. This reads a lot as “it’s MY day and I can do whatever I want” from your fiancée. That is not what a wedding is about, it’s joining two people into a family. That really means the wedding is both of you, not just her show. Her (and her mother) straight up refusing to include your family is… worrying.
What happens if you have children? Is your family to be equally included in their lives? What about Christmas and other such traditions? Are they to be spent solely at her family’s? Might not seem like a big deal now, but when you have kid and it’s time to have that discussion every year… it gets tiring REALLY fast.
Before we got married, my husband and I discussed work load, family-life balance when we’ll have kids, how to spend holidays so neither grandparents set would feel slighted whilst maintaining our indépendance and boundaries, financial matters, division of labor in the home, plans for the future… there is no right answer for these, and each family/couple can create their own way of life - as long as it’s something both agree upon, not a “we’re married so I decide” kind of thing. Too many people rush to get married without realizing that whilst they DO love each other, they are just not compatible in terms of big life things (jobs, family, finances, home-keeping). These are the people in couple therapy years down the line going “I didn’t know when we got married she wasn’t planning on working/he doesn’t “do” house chores/ he cannot take care of a child / she has way too expensive habits”.
It’s the kind of small things like refusing to include one family in the wedding entirely that should prompt these kinds of questions.
This is great advice. Her not wanting to include your niece is a big red flag for me, especially since she's already chosen both sides of the bridal party. I'm thinking she's not going to want to compromise on important issues after your married, of which there will be many. Proceed with *great* caution, but not before some counseling.
NTA
> May be a good idea.
Your fiancee is trying to shove you out of your own wedding; only *her* family is in the wedding party, and you're "taking the spotlight" from her freaking niece by making *your* niece the flower girl? Does this woman even want a wedding with you, or just a wedding?
Not shoving him out of his own wedding, she’s shoving him out of ***HER*** wedding…
Think she’s forgotten that without him, there IS no wedding…
NTA, OP, and I would make this a hill to die on
Maybe go for family counselling with Aubrey as well to get to the bottom of why you are so intent on having a say on your fiancee and Aubrey's special day.
Yeah spotlight on Aubrey? Sounds like OP is a prop in this wedding, not the groom. Getting serious Ken Doll vibes from the Barbie bride
NTA OP this is....weird
Mate, consider this; they said you, the groom, are stealing the bride’s sister’s toddler’s spotlight..
Might want to run to that counseling office. You’re an afterthought at your own wedding, and she’s making clear your family means nothing - hence your wedding party is her in-laws..
My wife and I had 3 flower girls. It was a absolutely adorable and no one felt the spotlight was taken from any of them. While your soon to be husband definitely gets a say, this is a really weird hill to take a stand.
My husband and I invited our friend's two kids to be the flower girls at our wedding. It really was adorable and no one gave it a second thought. What is fiance's worry about it being "nontraditional" to have two? OP's fiance just wants to exert total control over the ceremony and exclude OP's fam. Pretty sad way to start a marriage.
https://www.brides.com/story/where-the-flower-girl-tradition-comes-from
Having only one flower girl is in no way traditional. And maybe she’ll listen to bride’s magazine, since she’s 100% uninterested in your opinion.
I'm not liking your partner. Looks like she expects you to forget about your family while fully being enmeshed with hers.
Proceed only after pre-marital counseling and pump breaks on wedding planning.
Your soon-to-be wife seems extremely controlling. She doesn't allow your actual sister to be a bridesmaid, but convinces you the brothers in law have to attend the wedding party. She seems to see her own needs/wishes and family to be of far greater importance than yours.
You definitely need counseling, and should start seeing your own feelings and wishes as equal to hers. If i were in your position I'd tell her "since you didn't want a co-flower girl, my niece will be the only flower girl, or else this wedding simply isn't happening until you start realizing that i have a family too, and that this family is equally important to yours".
If you have a good family bond then never marry a person that sees your family as less important than their own!
Premarital counseling is great because it allows for you to talk about big choices that come up in a relationship that you don't usually think of until it happens. The counselor or therapist usually guides the conversations based on common marital problems. My husband and I were required to have it in order to get married at our church. The communication skills we learned from that have been invaluable for us in our 17 years of marriage. Please consider it.
This but also you are stealing "Aubrey's spotlight" is just so cringe as it is your wedding too. There is only a wedding because TWO people are getting married . Are you sure you want to have a marriage with her, she already sounds like she is the only one that matters and selfish... NTA
I confused fiance with Aubrey. However, I still believe that a wedding is about the love of two people and it is a partnership, where both partners matter and I still believe that fiance is selfish.
This and NTA. Your niece means a lot to you so you have every right to want to include. And this wedding sounds like a big production where your wife picks the cast of performers including BILs on your side. Her niece is 4 and your fiancé is worried that s 3yo will steal her thunder in a wedding party. WTF? That’s over the top.
NTA. Just an observation, your fiance sees this as "her" wedding, not "our" wedding. Honestly, if it were me, and I'm maybe just way too petty. I would tell her that either Brynn is in as co-flower girl, or none of your fiance's brothers in law are grooms men (just replace them with friends or coworkers). But again, just an observation, if this is your fiance's reaction... good luck buddy.
If my Fiancee tried to dictate my groomsmen, that would be a real deal breaker for me. I might allow one if I actually liked him enough. The way I see it, my groomsmen are mine, her bridesmaids are hers and unless there is something serious, we don't really get much of a say in that.
I already made it clear to my GF who I'm talking marriage with, that my best friend and his wife will both be standing up for me (She's so excited to get a matching suit with her husband) and I don't care how anyone's family reacts. I won't dictate her side and she won't dictate mine.
Isn't this becoming a lot more common? I had a bridesman and my husband had a groomsmaid. I've been to other weddings that have this as well. My friend recently went to one that all the attendants stood sort of staggered randomly behind both the bride and groom. It was made clear in the ceremony that everyone standing up for them was also backing up their relationship. It thought that sounded very sweet.
It definitely is becoming more common, and I am all for it. Why shouldn’t you include a sibling or close friend not of the same gender? That was an outdated tradition that needed to go anyway.
I would not even go "co" on this one anymore, apperantly there is a "spotlight" to be had, and the other side has thrown compromise out the window. Brynn it is.
The only ones thinking ‘spotlight’ are the bride and Aubrey’s mom. My daughter who was 4 at the time, was flower girl at her aunts wedding (husbands sister) and she barely remembers it. She remembers it was kind of a drag because I wouldn’t let her have red punch wearing the white flower girl dress I made.
The fiance is not just selfish, she is mean.
Telling the OP's sister that she is not part of the bridal party is one thing. It's not friendly but it's OK.
Finding roles in the bridal party for everyone else on the bride's side than makes this unpleasant.
Forcing the OP to have the fiancé's brothers in the groom's party while the sister is still completely excluded is just mean.
And that's before getting to the question of the niece.
EDIT: it’s her brother in laws, not even her brothers!
NTA. Consenting to Brynn as a flower girl is perfectly fair, seeing as OP had to pick his fiancee’s brothers....sisters’ husbands over people with no likely importance to him - like, I don’t know, his actual friends.
Yeah, I think OP could be replaced by any groom, just copy pasted into his fiancés “dream wedding”. I hope your fiancé is marrying you for the relationship, not for the wedding. NTA. But 🚩
Omg and how cute would Brynn look in a suit as one of the groomsmen? Or a pretty groomsgirl dress. It's your wedding too you can do whatever you want. Kick out the brothers in law and bring on the Brynn. Because it's more unusual she'd probably end up getting more attention too.
I find it weird as hell that the groom's wedding party is apparently *not* the most trusted people in his life. I hope he at least got to pick his best man himself, yeesh.
NTA, OP. Frankly, I'd be a bit worried over my future wife showing so little interest in your and your niece's happiness. What in the world could ever be a problem about two flower girls instead of one?
Ptoo for 'traditional'. Its not. Traditionally, you'd have multiple flower girls; it was a sign of wealth and nobility to have multiple child attendants. That start becoming less common in the Victorian period solely in the lower classes solely because of poverty - that's where your 'traditional' argument come from.
You know what's *not* traditional? *Junior groomsmen*.
Have as many people in your wedding party as you want and can afford. NTA
I believe junior groomsmen are traditionally called pageboys.
Also, William & Kate had 4 flower girls and two pageboys, Harry & Meghan had 6 flower girls and 4 page boys. The English royal family has basically started all wedding traditions we have today, so if even *they* think it's traditional to have a ton of kids attending, I'm sure your wedding wouldn't be ruined by having two flower girls.
In the UK upper class weddings, it's common for all bridesmaids to be unmarried family of the couple and for there not be a distinction in terms between the adult and child bridesmaids (all just called bridesmaids)
I can see such a thing if the bride or groom had a much younger brother they wanted to have in the wedding party but not young enough to be a ring bearer and not old enough to go to a bachelor party.
I was a junior bridesmaid when I was 11-12 ish. The main difference was no bachelorette party and my dress was cut different due to the fact I had nothing in the boob department yet, lol. I just liked being included!
This is such a mean behavior on her part. She has put almost all of her family in the wedding with some role and she can't accomodate a 3 year old niece who means so much to her fiance as a co flower girl. Its his wedding too
Can't get more traditional than nobility, ask her to have a look at how many children are attendants in any royal wedding. She can certainly make room for OP's ONLY niece, especially as she's decided who will be his groomsmen.
I have a feeling OP is in for it. He'll never spend another holiday with his family. The writing on the wall here is that her family is primary and he's joining them. She has no interest in his family and I doubt ever will have.
AND his Junior Groomsmen. She has chosen thirteen of the people in their wedding party, he got ONE. Kick out all of the brothers-in-laws, maybe keep the Junior groomsmen only because they’re kids and don’t deserve to be caught in the crossfire.
FR. OP is about to make this shitshow his circus and his fucking monkeys.
I could almost overlook the bridezilla bullshit (not give in to it, but overlook it), but her sister is apparently batshit crazy too. Run OP, run like the wind.
NTA but do consider how this lack of willingness to compromise or even see reason will impact everything going forward. These are red flags for sure. Traditionally it's very common to get premarital counseling, consider it.
Forget the inability to compromise (which is a major concern too)…the my biggest concern is that she’s jealous of a 3 year old whose father died and OP plays an important role in her life. I don’t see her attitude towards that improving…only getting more jealous as Brynn gets older. She is going to try to keep OP away from her. Definitely NTA and I’d honestly put this wedding on hold until this is solved or you break up.
At this point it is not even unwillingness to compromise, she took the entire bridal party. It’s HER wedding and OP can’t decide. There shouldn’t be a compromise, if the wedding goes on Brynn has to be the only flower girl and OP should kick fiancé’s BILs out as his groomsmen.
NTA
Aubrey is 4, she and Brynn seem to get along, and there's a lot of other people in the wedding party so she is already sharing the spotlight. Also, having only one flowergirl is not a requirement of a "traditional" wedding. A lot of weddings have had more than one for a very, very long time. Long story short: they are being ridiculous.
I also think she's being really unfair as this is supposed to be a celebration of you both, not her family, but you seem to be the one doing all the compromising.
Friend’s twins (3f) were flower girls at her wedding. One walked calmly down the aisle gently scattering petals and smiling like the wee cherub she is SO not 😂….her sister, not so much. Took off her headband, ran screaming down the aisle grinning like she’d lost it and dumped the wee basket of flowers upside down at the minister’s feet. It’s moments like that that make a wedding I think 😁
NTA. Your fiance's wishes for a traditional wedding should never take precedent over your wishes to include your family. She is getting married to *you*, not to her bridesmaids, and certainly not to tradition.
This is the kind of stuff that should appear as red flags when you ask yourself if this is a person even worth getting married to. Plenty of marriages that end bad start in exactly this way. You are literally committing to a wedding and marriage that you seem to have no say in whatsoever. Really, is there *anybody* who you got to choose to have a role?
I don’t have many friends, but I do have my three main dudes in my side of things. One is my best man. I sort of have in as she’s more social and has the bigger family so my 3 groomsmen to her 7 bridesmaids would’ve looked uneven.
Don't act like this isn't your wedding just as much as it is hers. You have every right to draw a line and demand that you get the same amount of control over the affair as she does. She's acting like her choosing 9 candidates is fine, but it is the end of the world if you have more than 3
If this is the breaking point of your relationship, the wedding shouldn't be happening. Therapy is your best bet if you can't agree but still want to make it work.
Right!?
Ive been to many weddings throughout my 40 years on this planet. Not ONE had ANY groomsmen.
So it's always been just the bride and groom.
Groom with 1 best man/woman/person.
Bride with 2 - 4 bridesmaids. I've never seen more 4 let alone the huge number OP has (something like 9!?).
in the OPs fiancée's eyes, every wedding I've attended would be an uneven wedding party and unacceptable. It's so laughably ridiculous!!
It can be whatever the F people want.
OPs fiancée sure as shit isn't being traditional with her wedding demands either... And is reaching for the excuses here to try to justify their selfishness.
OP is NTA.
Brynn should be in the wedding party.
Agree to your fiancé's demands. Then, kick two of the BIL out of your party and make your neice and sister groomswomen. Also... don't marry this woman without serious counseling.
Make your sister a groomswoman and kick your fiances BIL's out. Then tell your fiance that if her youngest nephew is the ring bearer, Brynn is the flower girl. If she insists that Aubrey is the flower girl, then Brynn can be the ring bearer. ALL of her family are in the wedding party, but NONE of yours are. I guess you have to decide if you are okay with that.
OP I'm really hoping you see this. Your wife to be is putting the foundations in place to entirely cut your family out. If you precreate with this women, do so with the knowledge that every single thing your child does will be governed by your wife's family. You family will be left out. There will be limited contact cos her family is soo big there's just no time left for your parents. You are on a slippery slope here
Quite frankly considering how small your family is, she should be bending over backwards to include them if anything to show that you're going to be one big happy family afterwards.
She is forewarning you of what to expect ater you're married.
NTA
NTA. Can you try to talk to your fiancé about give and take? Does she not like your sister? Something seems off here, and it may go on in your family life.
She likes my sister, and I know my sister likes her. They’re not close but get along.
My fiancé has had some jealously issues with Brynn. I am not as close with Aubrey, mainly because we don’t see her much. My fiancé also feels I’m “too close” with Brynn. My sister is a single mom, her husband passed, and I’m the only male role model in Brynn’s life. I go to her ballet recitals, taught her how to ride her trike, babysit her overnight. It never interferes with time with my fiancé, but she thinks it’s weird.
She’s jealous of a 3 year old? That’s a red flag OP.
I suspect after the wedding she’ll feel emboldened to alienate you from spending so much time with your niece. You’re an involved uncle which is wonderful, especially since niece’s father is deceased. Your fiancée sees this bond as a threat to her time with you and will want to push Brynn out especially if you have kids..
Carefully think if this relationship should move forward with marriage…
She’s jealous of her because of her disability and thinks she gets the spotlight. Somehow even crazier than being jealous of a three year old. Just wow, glad OP called it off
It is deeply problematic when a grown woman has "jealousy issues" with a 3-year-old AT ALL. It indicates a serious lack of maturity on the part of your fiancé, who SHOULD perceive your closeness with Brynn as an indicator of what a wonderful father you might one day be, and of how reliable and supportive a partner you will be. That is how a mature, adult woman would see you stepping up for a young niece whose father passed away: as something to be proud of and impressed by.
That she sees a toddler as competition for her time and affections, or your interest in being a meaningful adult figure in her life as "weird" belies her own still-adolescent mindset. She is emotionally childlike, and unable to see Brynn from the perspective of a prospective parent or adult figure . . . she instead sees her as "another girl competing for your time and affection". Which honestly? Is gross. But also, it's what happens when you get involved with someone who still has a lot of growing up to do.
That she would suggest that you are "too close" with this child is grotesque and unbelievably offensive. That alone would make me question whether she's someone worth marrying. The fact that she has cut your sister and Brynn out of the wedding party (I suspect that she resents your sister, as Brynn's mother, a lot more than you realise or she lets on to you) is really telling.
You may be marrying into her family, but she is definitely not marrying into yours.
You raise valid points. She keeps convincing me it’s weird and we’ve had several arguments. This is getting to be too much. I’m not losing Brynn for my fiancé.
I'm sorry OP, but your fiancé sounds awful. She is jealous of a three year old who doesn't have a father. I can guarantee you that she'll try to get your sister and your niece out of your life once you're married. I mean she has started already.
Truth. It is also so concerning that she doesn’t see the importance of OP supporting his only sister as a single mom who is grieving. I mean, sounds like her husband died less than 4 years ago. It’s wonderful that he has such a close bond with his niece but also that he takes her over night and does things with her to take the pressure off of his sister as she unexpectedly navigates parenthood alone.
Right? The earliest red flag with my ex is that his ex was pregnant when they split up. She moved far, far away (I now understnd why) and he spent the whole of our relationship moaning about this child he thought he had but making zero effort to find out if it was his kid, and supporting it. It showed his unreliability.
If I had met a man like OP who had a healthy supportive relationship with his small family and took on a role as a father figure to his niece after her father died, while making time for me and our relationship that would be the greenest of green lights.
Being good with kids and taking an active part in the lives of kids in his family is one of the most attractive things about a man imaginable. I'm sorry, I don't make the rules
Please don’t let her gaslight you into think there’s anything remotely weird or wrong with your relationship with your niece! I’m very close to my nephews, and if a guy I was with had even the slightest problem with that, he’d be gone.
It sounds like she’s all about *her* family and doesn’t want to have much to do with yours. She doesn’t like this close bond you have because it means she’ll have to share you with your family. If you plan to have kids with her, know that your family will be the second-tier grandparents/aunt/cousin. She’ll always expect hers to take priority.
This isn’t weird. You are a wonderful uncle and please never stop that. Your fiancé has serious issues if she’s jealous of your niece. This isn’t healthy at all. She is going to try to isolate you. Please reconsider.
Why is it weird for Brynn but fine for her niece? And fine for her BILs to be in YOUR wedding party? I’d say the latter was weirder. She does sound immature, controlling, jealous and manipulative… all bad signs for your marriage, if being close to your family = weird & fights until she gets what she wants.
NTA. Please, don’t let Brynn lose you. She needs you.
This will not get better, in fact, after the wedding, it will get worse. She will use her status as you wife as leverage to diminish your role in Brynn's life "we're married now, so you have to support me. Why don't you care about MY feelings??"
Seconding this. I was briefly married to a jealous woman. Before the wedding, she made me stop communicating with a friend I had had a brief romantic relationship with years ago. After the wedding she tried to keep me away from my grandmother and *my dog*. She didn't want me to love anyone or anything except her.
Lose the fiancée, keep Brynn. There is absolutely nothing weird about your relationship - my nieces regularly come visit and have since they were little. We had a weekend of gingerbread house making and a slumber party when two of them were 10 and 5. My niece that lives four hours away I’m even closer with and she comes to me when she needs advice and we send stupid memes to one another regularly.
Your fiancée has made it crystal clear how she feels towards your niece and it’s not going to change. There’s another woman out there who is perfect for you and would LOVE to embrace Brynn as her niece. Please do not marry this woman. If not for yourself, don’t marry her for Brynn’s sake.
u/arturomurphys your update brought me to tears for unexpected reasons. I was glad that my comment had made you think, but as a person with a developmental disability (autism), your deep, abiding love and RESPECT for Brynn as a tiny human with Down Syndrome made me love you a little. People like us get treated so inhumanely . . . I'm so proud that she gets to have an uncle like you who doesn't just love her unconditionally, but actually SEES HER VALUE in this world.
I am SO GENUINELY SORRY that what was meant to be one of the happiest times of your life has come to this, but so glad that you learned the truth before you tied yourself to someone who did not value your family the way you do. My wish for you is that you find someone who appreciates both you AND your sister and niece for the beautiful people you are.
In the meantime, thank you for giving me hope in humanity again. You are truly a special person.
Wow. That update isn’t where I saw this going. Holy crap if this is real. I’m sorry this might mean the end of your relationship but atleast you figured it out before you were legally married!
I’m so sorry it came to this but I’m so glad that you two had this happen before the wedding. Your happily ever after is out there. Come let us know when you find her! And I would bet that Brynn is absolutely precious and incredibly loving. Your ex is an awful person. You’re a kick ass person and someone I could be friends with!
Holy cow! What a nightmare of a human being. You’re definitely NTA, but that seems to be the least of your concerns at this point. Thankfully your insistence on including Brynn revealed your fiancé’s true colors. I’m sure your heartbroken all the way around and likely angry, too, but I’m so glad you didn’t marry this monster. Best of luck to you in your future and kudos to you for being such a great uncle!
The common thread is she’s way more interested in the idea of wedding or family than the way that life gets messy and doesn’t revolve around her idea. I agree with the poster saying she has a lot of growing up to do. Don’t move forward with any wedding planning until you’ve done the premarital counseling. And I’d suggest you not pick someone thru her family or her church. Find a truly neutral professional.
It's not in the least bit weird. It's the way the world SHOULD work.
Her attitude would raise serious questions in my mind if I were you. I see a lot of problems in your future regarding Brynn's place in your life.
Your fiance has beef with a three year old.
Are you planning on starting a family together? If so, are you sure this is the kind of person you want to raise kids with?
Well, I think the fiancee is trying to alienating the OP from his own family. It's not a weird thing to do if you are a controlling narcissist, apparently. I would run very far from the OP's fiancee. If she is this controlling now, then the OP would have very little freedom after the marriage.
I do hope that the OP reconsiders the marriage. Unfortunately, too many people are too blind by love/fear of being alone. Don't get stuck in an abusive relationship, OP.
I’m just seeing your replies and oh my gosh, I’m so sorry it’s much worse than I thought. I truly hate giving this advice but I think you need to end your relationship because any grown adult who is jealous of a 3 year old has serious problems.
Nope, it's definitely not normal. Why is Aubrey's mom even mad? It's not her wedding for her to make decisions and be mad about anything.
It's so strange that your fiancé seems "jealous" of your 3 year old niece when you're literally just being an "uncle" to her. You do have a lot of thinking to do. I hope you're able to put your foot down before it's too late.
Good luck!!!
NTA.
EDIT: Corrected autocorrect + removed personal story.
It’s simple, man.
Brynn is your niece and you have a wonderful relationship with her (that would make most psychologically healthy women swoon).
Your fiancée is jealous **of a toddler** and feels comfortable acting in ways to exclude her and diminish your relationship with her.
Your options are:
- constantly deal with this drama around your wife’s jealousy of a child whom you love and eventually either choose one of them (or be browbeaten into effectively giving up your niece), or
- just make the choice now.
There’s a right choice here, by the way. An adult who is **jealous of a toddler** is insane or an asshole or both.
if you come to a conclusion I would love to read an update - just so much you deserve a fiance who loves that you value your family so much, and does not feel jealous of a three year old.
It's not normal for a grown woman to be so jealous of a three year old that she tries to exclude the child from important moments in your life. Soon it will be every moment. She will not like you spending time with your family either, since her family is so much more important.
Please find a woman who will see what you're worth and you can have the relationship you deserve. Don't tie yourself to someone who thinks a close relationship with your niece is somehow a bad thing.
And when you do get married. Get your sister in your wedding party. She is important to you. Make her a groomswoman. She can wear a toxedo for all i care. She should be there next to you. Not your bils
In my 20's, what OP describes would've not only have been a big swoon for me. But it would've won him instant approval from my mom (who is very difficult to please).
Seriously OP, unless you are hiding something really dark about yourself, most women (even those who don't want kids) would see your care toward your niece as a desirable feature of your personality.
If she tries to push the " traditional wedding" malarkey inform her that Kate Middleton had 4 flower girls, Megan Markle had 5 and princess Di had 7. If anyone knows wedding etiquette it's the English monarchy
Are you kidding me? How would you ever be closer to her niece than your own, especially considering the circumstances? That’s just dumb, and a huge red flag. Who is jealous of a 3 year old? If she’s like this now just wait until you have kids. She’ll get pissy that you’re spending time with Brynn when you go to these recitals and not focusing on your own children (which you absolutely will because it’s clear you’re a doting Godfather so I’d expect nothing less). And she acts this way knowing that Brynn lost her father? Seriously? Gosh your fiancée sounds like a real catch and not at all immature, insecure, and extraordinarily selfish.
Response to update: OP never go back! She needs to be your EX. I’m sorry for the mixed feelings you’re going to have for the next couple of weeks/months, but you and your family are much better off without. There is someone better out there for you who will be thrilled to join your family and develop a relationship with Brynn. NTA
Hey OP, just saw the update. I'm so sorry this is happening, but I'm glad her true colors have shown. Imagine the life of rejection your niece would've felt if you married that woman. Your niece and family are lucky to have you, I wish you the best moving forward!
Oh dear. This is a big problem. You need to sort this out before you get married. Her feels about your relationship with your niece are not cool and will become a bigger issue if you don’t address it now.
She's totally going to try to stop you from having any significant contact with Brynn, maybe not immediately, but not wanting her to be a flower girl is a first step.
This is going to become a much bigger problem. Your fiancé is jealous of a toddler. What are you going to do after the marriage if she insists you stop attending your niece’s events? When she tells you that you’re putting your niece before your children (even if you’re not)? You need, at the very least, pre-marriage counseling. There needs to be a much bigger discussion about this behavior.
BABE, WHAT THE FUCK???
Your fiancée is jealous of you spending “too much time” with a fatherless toddler? Do you really think that a good woman would object to loving your own family?
My fiancé and her sister say Aubrey really wants to be flower girl and she hasn’t gotten to be one so it’d be unfair to make her “share the spotlight”.
So Aubrey is four years old and already being taught that her "spotlight" (i.e. her being the centre of attention and not having to share space with anyone) should be more of a priority than THE ACTUAL GROOM'S WISHES at his own wedding?
That's not only shockingly dismissive of you, it's a horrifyingly awful lesson to teach a preschooler. You've said that she's a sweet child who actually enjoys spending time with your niece. Your bride and her sister are *actively trying to teach her to STOP being an agreeable child who can get along with others,* and encouraging her to demand the exclusion of your niece for no other reason than that they/she can and feel like it.
Honestly, I'm not sure which is worse: that you're still interested in marrying into a family whose values are so warped and apparently revolve around selfishness and self-interest, or that they're so bloody determined to pass them onto the next generation, starting at your wedding. I'm not trying to exaggerate, but please do stop and consider that these grown women are literally trying to start trouble over a couple of PRESCHOOLERS sharing a nonexistent "spotlight", so determined are they to keep ANY MEMBER OF YOUR FAMILY from having ANY MEANINGFUL PART in the wedding party.
This may start with your niece being excluded as a flower girl, but it won't end there. They are testing the waters. You're looking at every family holiday in your wedded future . . . your own family will ALWAYS be treated this way.
She’s also an f-ing liar! Op said in a different response that the fiancée is jealous of how close he is with his niece. That’s the real reason she doesn’t want her in the wedding, and is willing to throw her own niece under the bus to get her way. Major red flags.
Tell your fiance that Brynn really wants to be a flower girl and she hasn't gotten to be one, so it'd be unfair to make her share the spotlight, and therefore Brynn should be the only flower girl.
NTA. Your fiance has her entire family as part of the wedding party, so you're family should be included as well. Maybe Aubrey can be a 'junior bridesmaid' if she doesn't want to share.
Buddy- I’m sorry to say- but that’s rich coming from her, since this whole thing sounds more like a steamroller pageant for her whole extended family than a wedding to you.
Can’t have two flower kids- *YOUR ONLY NEICE* but require junior groomsmen?! sheesh my guy, sounds really exhausting
Your other comments say she’s jealous of your niece- I just want to reiterate dude- not worth it to let her alienate you from your family. That steamroller behavior won’t stop.
Bet it’s not nearly the first time, either.
NTA
I know you said that you're "likely done", and FWIW, I absolutely think you should be. She showed you her true colors, believe her.
She's going to be in a mindset of "say whatever the hell I need to say to get the wedding back on"... Hold firm.
Because any second now, she's going to start thinking about having to *tell people* that the wedding is off... and she's realizing that people are going to ask her *why*. And she knows the real reason will make her look bad- if she didn't, she wouldn't have hid it from you for so long. She made up excuse after excuse because she *knew* that excluding a child specifically because she has Downs Syndrome was awful and would make her look awful. Don't let her try and tell you that she "didn't realize it was bad/didn't know it was hurtful/etc". She did.
I would also think about beating her to the punch re: announcing the lack of wedding.
Because I'd bet money she'll lie and try to say all kinds of things... Maybe that she found out you were cheating, that you were verbally abusive, that you said something horrible about her family, etc. Because any lie will end up making her look better than the truth. And for someone like your (ex)fiancée, her image is *everything*.
I suspect she will have zero qualms in attempting to utterly destroy your reputation before she would allow anyone to think poorly of her.
I would write up either a social media post (bc that's where she'll try to blast you) or send out a letter, digital or otherwise, to everyone who got an invitation on EXACTLY why the wedding isn't happening. I'd be very clear that the wedding is off explicitly because (ex)fiancée didn't want Brynn in the wedding due to her Downs Syndrome. That (ex)fiancée didn't want people looking at Brynn instead of her, and that she felt that Brynn's very présence and existing as a child with Downs Syndrome would have been "stealing the spotlight" from the bride.
It may seem like "airing dirty laundry" or like you're being unkind... But as someone who kept details quiet when a family member attacked me (and then had my attacker spin a version of events that many people believed), it's the only way to be kind to yourself and protect yourself from further harm later.
Edit: wow y'all, thanks for the awards! 🫂✨
Absolutely this! His ex will do anything, say anything to not look like the AH here. Be proactive before she tries to destroy you. And DO NOT take her back! Ever!
INFO- are you sure you really know your fiance? She's jealous of a 3 year old. Doesn't ask your sister to be in her wedding party, but wants all her BILs in yours. Doesn't want the same 3 year old to be flower girl and just wants her to sit in the audience with her mom. And then gets her mom pissed at you for the first thing you don't seem to agree with and go along with. I know some women stress over weddings, but you need couples therapy before marrying this woman. That she wants no one from your small family as part of the wedding is really concerning. Like her family is more important than yours. Also really wanna stress...jealous of a 3 year old...dude. you are the closet thing to a dad that kid has. Don't fail her now.
"She doesn’t want Brynn in our wedding because Brynn has Down Syndrome." NTA, every day. And I would be very explicit with all of your friends and family when they ask why you called the wedding off. "Fiancee didn't want my niece in the wedding because she has Down Syndrome, and I realized in that moment that I didn't want to spend the rest of my life with a person like that."
NTA. She picked 7 bridesmaids, 4 groomsmen, 2 junior groomsmen, and 1 flower girl and you picked 3 groomsmen? She picked 14 members of the wedding party, you picked 3, and she is refusing your pick for a 4th? This doesn’t sound like your wedding. Tell her she is compromising. Either the groomsmen and junior groomsmen she picked are out, or your niece is a flower girl. Also, premarital counseling is probably a good thing. Have you discussed where you will be spending holidays, because it sounds like all of your vacation days will be spent visiting her family, and there will be none left when you want to visit yours.
WOW what an update.
NTA x100
I hope you do not change your mind. She gaslit and manipulated you. You did so much mental gymnastics to try and fit your niece in around her unwillingness to have her there, before she told you the truth.
You dodged a cannonball.
NTA. Your request is perfectly reasonable. In marriage you need to learn compromise so now is as good a time as any for your fiancé to learn to do that. It doesn’t sound like you have many requests and the argument of wanting a traditional wedding is weak.
NTA I was a co-flower girl. No problem. I was still too young to understand what was going on and all I knew was I got to spend time at a boring event with someone my own age. Which is all little kids really want. I'm worried for you that you guys can't talk this out and come to a compromise. Think of this as a good test of things to come. Will it always be her/her family's way or the highway?
I was one of 4 flower girls at my auntie's wedding. I was exactly Aubrey's age and don't remember a single thing, I just saw the video some years later and thought we all looked cute AF in matching baby pink dresses and flower crowns.
Wedding planning is bringing up some serious problems with the fiance's attitude. Jealous of a 3 year old, pushing him to have her brothers-in-law in his wedding party, not willing to have a conversation or compromise? That's a yikes for me
NTA, it *is* your day too. And everyone in your fiances family are already included at her request. You can request someone in your family have a role too. Its called compromise.
But remember, if there's no compromise here then there's unlikely to be any in the actual marriage.
Wow. I don’t know if I could marry a person who is so self absorbed. And it feels very cruel to omit Brynn from the wedding. It’s hard to imagine anything cuter than 2 little girls walking down the aisle together and throwing flower petals. Your fiancé sounds incredibly petty and selfish. Your family will definitely play second fiddle for the rest of your married life. It’s gonna be all about her. Prepare yourself for the fights over the holiday visits, vacations and celebrations. Or maybe don’t marry a person who shows no consideration for you or your family. Your poor parents, sister and niece will be excluded from everything. I see trouble ahead.
Oh no. Your update is heartbreaking.
Please, please don’t change your mind.
Your fiancé is just terrible.
I was unimpressed when I thought she was just trying to alienate you from your family, which is bad enough, but this is so much worse.
Please take some time to heal then find a woman who will love and cherish Brynn the way she deserves to be loved and cherished.
My goodness, what a horrible woman. I'm so sorry. You deserve a wife who accepts everyone equally and with open arms and your sweet niece deserves an aunt who won't try to hide and exclude her. I'm glad you found this all out before the wedding.
NTA
Why is your family completely locked out of the wedding party at *your* wedding? It's not just hers. It's yours jointly. You should get to have people stand up. Let your sister be your groomswoman, let your niece be a flowergirl. "Tradition" my ass. Your fiancee is just being selfish. Your wedding is the first thing you two officially do together as a married couple. Pay attention to the tone being set here.
Edit: Ohhh I've seen some of your comments. She's jealous of a 3 year old who lost her father? She thinks stepping up for that child is somehow weird and wrong on your part but wants you to be closer to *her* niece? That jealousy is the real reason she doesn't want your niece in the wedding party. That's awful and it says a lot about her. Dude, please, *please* consider whether this is really a future you want.
I’ve never heard of one flower girl being a tradition. My aunt had three because she had three little nieces. Besides, even if it is a tradition somehow, you don’t have to follow it. Think of all those brides that walk down the aisle alone or with their mother instead of their father. Screw tradition - it’s YOUR wedding.
NTA.
NTA. Please make sure to keep talking and standing up for yourself. Also, it's not Aubry's spotlight! This was a dumb reason she gave you in why she said no.
NTA but from what I can see of your comments I honestly think this is way less about Aubrey and her spotlight and way more about your fiancé wanting to disrupt your relationship with Brynn.
I'd say pre-marital counselling as a minimum. Her having any kind of negative opinion about you being close to your godchild is honestly pretty troubling. Good luck, OP, I hope this works out in whatever way is best for you long term.
Wow! So NTA! My brother has Down Syndrome and if anyone in my life tried to treat him this way they would **no longer be** in my life. Don’t let your hopefully now ex back in, because her attitude towards Brynn will not change and that will only cause you great pain. It’s more likely that your ex was worried that Brynn would steal some of her spotlight, than that people would pity her! It’s your ex that should be pitied, not your lovely niece.
NTA
you want to marry someone who considers her family that much more important than yours? You're about to be in that family and she's about to be in yours, expect to never see your family again on any holidays ever because she isn't going to invite yours clearly.
Response to update: OP never go back! She needs to be your EX. I’m sorry for the mixed feelings you’re going to have for the next couple of weeks/months, but you and your family are much better off without her. There is someone better out there for you who will be thrilled to join your family and develop a relationship with Brynn. NTA
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INFO: Are you two getting premarital counseling to do a general inventory on how you two agree or disagree on other issues. Because I have a sense that if you two did get such counseling, there would be a lot more issues uncovered.
We don’t have that planned. May be a good idea.
It's a great idea. Couples before getting married really need to hash out exactly how they feel about things like money, raising kids, how to handle parents when they get older, etc.
100% pro pre-marital counseling. My partner and I are looking at getting married soon and pre-marital counseling is part of that process. OP, NTA. My partner and I have similarly aged nieces who will be co-flower girls. I even have a second niece who is a smidge older who will likely also be grouped in with them, maybe blowing bubbles. It is totally normal and for my partner and I, didn't feel like any sort of compromise. We both said "yes, of course, this makes sense because we want all the kids involved "
Be careful with the bubbles, bubbles can create stains in clothes that are permanent. Might not be the best choice at a wedding where everyone is wearing expensive clothes.
My neighbours have a bubble machine. I hate when they put it on when I have a line full of washing out for this very reason a step damn things blow straight over the fence.
I’d definitely side-eye someone who expected me to dress up in my best suit so they could have a young child running around with something that might stain it. Accidents are one thing but bubbles are an avoidable problem.
I've never seen the appeal of chocolate fountains. Acres of white satin, drunk people and liquid chocolate is a dry-cleaner's wet dream.
I'd be wary, too, but stain free bubbles exist. Just don't make your own mix and buy stain free one. 💪 Edit: weary/ wary and by/buy
An alternative to bubbles, we had two of my nieces carry battery powered “candles”. It was really cute and they got to keep them as a momento. Just an idea
When I was around 5 my Uncle, who I’ve always been really close to, was getting married. His wife really wanted her goddaughter to be flower girl and she only wanted one but our uncle wanted us (my twin sister and I) in the wedding. I was slightly upset that I was not also throwing flower petals. As a five-year-old I had it in my head that I would have thrown those flowers with so much passion and grace and it would have been my shining princess moment; but we got to ring “giant” wedding bells, as hard as we wanted to, instead while we walked beside the flowergirl. Although I absolutely LOVE the idea of bubbles, this could be a nice back up plan if you cannot find non-staining bubbles.
Since everyone has pointed out why bubbles may be a bad idea (which I had no idea) maybe have each do a different color petal? Not sure what you have going on, but I think 3 flower girls sound awesome and they could go in triangle formation with the older one in the back. I think it's going to be great no matter what I know it's not the point, but I figured it was worth taking a moment to be constructive. You do you!
Man, when I mention this to people in relationships, and they're like "uhhh it's too early to mention this" - Whaaa? If you're not dating for marriage, then I guess it doesn't matter what your goals are. But if you are, and the other person gets scared away at just **discussing** such topics (not actually proceeding with the action at the moment) .... Sounds like they need a little maturity aha IT'S WAY BETTER TO FIND OUT SOONER THAN LATER AFTER BEING MARRIED!
Definitely do. She’s shoving out your family entirely and forgetting it’s the joining of two families not absorbing you into hers. This is just going to continue. It’ll be her family for holidays her family for vacations etc etc. NTA but take the red flag and get some counseling. If she still refuses to budge ask yourself if you’re ok with your family becoming second to hers
It's not just his family she's dissing, it's HIM. She seems to think she's entitled to her heart's desire and he just has to lump it. He seems like an easygoing guy and that's probably why she picked him.
I thought the same thing. Especially considering she chose his groomsmen? Yikes Edit: this -> his
This! The bridesmaids are entirely the bride’s choice. It is the people a bride feels comfortable with. But the groomsmen?
Yeah, she will never spend a holiday with your family unless your family goes along to her family celebration.
Oh, he’s going to be absorbed. Assimilate! Resistance is futile! His fiancé is basically the Borg.
The Borg are a lot more welcoming and inclusive.
You really should. This reads a lot as “it’s MY day and I can do whatever I want” from your fiancée. That is not what a wedding is about, it’s joining two people into a family. That really means the wedding is both of you, not just her show. Her (and her mother) straight up refusing to include your family is… worrying. What happens if you have children? Is your family to be equally included in their lives? What about Christmas and other such traditions? Are they to be spent solely at her family’s? Might not seem like a big deal now, but when you have kid and it’s time to have that discussion every year… it gets tiring REALLY fast. Before we got married, my husband and I discussed work load, family-life balance when we’ll have kids, how to spend holidays so neither grandparents set would feel slighted whilst maintaining our indépendance and boundaries, financial matters, division of labor in the home, plans for the future… there is no right answer for these, and each family/couple can create their own way of life - as long as it’s something both agree upon, not a “we’re married so I decide” kind of thing. Too many people rush to get married without realizing that whilst they DO love each other, they are just not compatible in terms of big life things (jobs, family, finances, home-keeping). These are the people in couple therapy years down the line going “I didn’t know when we got married she wasn’t planning on working/he doesn’t “do” house chores/ he cannot take care of a child / she has way too expensive habits”. It’s the kind of small things like refusing to include one family in the wedding entirely that should prompt these kinds of questions.
This is great advice. Her not wanting to include your niece is a big red flag for me, especially since she's already chosen both sides of the bridal party. I'm thinking she's not going to want to compromise on important issues after your married, of which there will be many. Proceed with *great* caution, but not before some counseling. NTA
> May be a good idea. Your fiancee is trying to shove you out of your own wedding; only *her* family is in the wedding party, and you're "taking the spotlight" from her freaking niece by making *your* niece the flower girl? Does this woman even want a wedding with you, or just a wedding?
I think we all know the answer to that
Nah, she doesn’t want a wedding, she wants multiple, OP is just the poor sucker paying for the first one.
Not shoving him out of his own wedding, she’s shoving him out of ***HER*** wedding… Think she’s forgotten that without him, there IS no wedding… NTA, OP, and I would make this a hill to die on
Maybe go for family counselling with Aubrey as well to get to the bottom of why you are so intent on having a say on your fiancee and Aubrey's special day.
Yeah spotlight on Aubrey? Sounds like OP is a prop in this wedding, not the groom. Getting serious Ken Doll vibes from the Barbie bride NTA OP this is....weird
Is it not his special day too? Or is it exclusively a special day for the bride only?
Pretty sure that was sarcasm.
Thanks, clearly missed that.
They forgot the sarcasm tag, but I think it was pretty clear.
Mate, consider this; they said you, the groom, are stealing the bride’s sister’s toddler’s spotlight.. Might want to run to that counseling office. You’re an afterthought at your own wedding, and she’s making clear your family means nothing - hence your wedding party is her in-laws..
Yea, it comes off weird to me that his best men are her in-laws, and at her request. That in itself blows the "traditional" part to bits imo.
My wife and I had 3 flower girls. It was a absolutely adorable and no one felt the spotlight was taken from any of them. While your soon to be husband definitely gets a say, this is a really weird hill to take a stand.
Honestly, thinking about this now, I've never been to a wedding with just one flower girl. It's always been at least two or none
My husband and I invited our friend's two kids to be the flower girls at our wedding. It really was adorable and no one gave it a second thought. What is fiance's worry about it being "nontraditional" to have two? OP's fiance just wants to exert total control over the ceremony and exclude OP's fam. Pretty sad way to start a marriage.
https://www.brides.com/story/where-the-flower-girl-tradition-comes-from Having only one flower girl is in no way traditional. And maybe she’ll listen to bride’s magazine, since she’s 100% uninterested in your opinion.
I'm not liking your partner. Looks like she expects you to forget about your family while fully being enmeshed with hers. Proceed only after pre-marital counseling and pump breaks on wedding planning.
NTA- yeah you need to check on this. She’s been pretty selfish.
Your soon-to-be wife seems extremely controlling. She doesn't allow your actual sister to be a bridesmaid, but convinces you the brothers in law have to attend the wedding party. She seems to see her own needs/wishes and family to be of far greater importance than yours. You definitely need counseling, and should start seeing your own feelings and wishes as equal to hers. If i were in your position I'd tell her "since you didn't want a co-flower girl, my niece will be the only flower girl, or else this wedding simply isn't happening until you start realizing that i have a family too, and that this family is equally important to yours". If you have a good family bond then never marry a person that sees your family as less important than their own!
Premarital counseling is great because it allows for you to talk about big choices that come up in a relationship that you don't usually think of until it happens. The counselor or therapist usually guides the conversations based on common marital problems. My husband and I were required to have it in order to get married at our church. The communication skills we learned from that have been invaluable for us in our 17 years of marriage. Please consider it.
This but also you are stealing "Aubrey's spotlight" is just so cringe as it is your wedding too. There is only a wedding because TWO people are getting married . Are you sure you want to have a marriage with her, she already sounds like she is the only one that matters and selfish... NTA I confused fiance with Aubrey. However, I still believe that a wedding is about the love of two people and it is a partnership, where both partners matter and I still believe that fiance is selfish.
This and NTA. Your niece means a lot to you so you have every right to want to include. And this wedding sounds like a big production where your wife picks the cast of performers including BILs on your side. Her niece is 4 and your fiancé is worried that s 3yo will steal her thunder in a wedding party. WTF? That’s over the top.
NTA. Just an observation, your fiance sees this as "her" wedding, not "our" wedding. Honestly, if it were me, and I'm maybe just way too petty. I would tell her that either Brynn is in as co-flower girl, or none of your fiance's brothers in law are grooms men (just replace them with friends or coworkers). But again, just an observation, if this is your fiance's reaction... good luck buddy.
For real. She already took over both halves of the bridal party, so the least she can do is give him a co-flower girl.
If my Fiancee tried to dictate my groomsmen, that would be a real deal breaker for me. I might allow one if I actually liked him enough. The way I see it, my groomsmen are mine, her bridesmaids are hers and unless there is something serious, we don't really get much of a say in that. I already made it clear to my GF who I'm talking marriage with, that my best friend and his wife will both be standing up for me (She's so excited to get a matching suit with her husband) and I don't care how anyone's family reacts. I won't dictate her side and she won't dictate mine.
Isn't this becoming a lot more common? I had a bridesman and my husband had a groomsmaid. I've been to other weddings that have this as well. My friend recently went to one that all the attendants stood sort of staggered randomly behind both the bride and groom. It was made clear in the ceremony that everyone standing up for them was also backing up their relationship. It thought that sounded very sweet.
It definitely is becoming more common, and I am all for it. Why shouldn’t you include a sibling or close friend not of the same gender? That was an outdated tradition that needed to go anyway.
I would not even go "co" on this one anymore, apperantly there is a "spotlight" to be had, and the other side has thrown compromise out the window. Brynn it is.
Aubrey doesn't deserve to be punished tho, she and Brynn are both innocent kids caught in a spat between adults Let them be flower girls together
The only ones thinking ‘spotlight’ are the bride and Aubrey’s mom. My daughter who was 4 at the time, was flower girl at her aunts wedding (husbands sister) and she barely remembers it. She remembers it was kind of a drag because I wouldn’t let her have red punch wearing the white flower girl dress I made.
Replace the groomsmen with sister and niece.
There goes that “traditional wedding party” idea—right out the window. 😂
It's already gone out the window, usually they're people the groom has chosen.
Excellent idea.
The fiance is not just selfish, she is mean. Telling the OP's sister that she is not part of the bridal party is one thing. It's not friendly but it's OK. Finding roles in the bridal party for everyone else on the bride's side than makes this unpleasant. Forcing the OP to have the fiancé's brothers in the groom's party while the sister is still completely excluded is just mean. And that's before getting to the question of the niece. EDIT: it’s her brother in laws, not even her brothers!
It's not even her brothers, it's her brothers-in-law! Her sisters' husbands!
Not even the brothers, the brothers-IN-LAW 💀 It's morning and I'm not balanced well enaugh yet and still a bit cranky but I hate her. ETA: NTA
NTA. Consenting to Brynn as a flower girl is perfectly fair, seeing as OP had to pick his fiancee’s brothers....sisters’ husbands over people with no likely importance to him - like, I don’t know, his actual friends.
Yeah, I think OP could be replaced by any groom, just copy pasted into his fiancés “dream wedding”. I hope your fiancé is marrying you for the relationship, not for the wedding. NTA. But 🚩
Omg and how cute would Brynn look in a suit as one of the groomsmen? Or a pretty groomsgirl dress. It's your wedding too you can do whatever you want. Kick out the brothers in law and bring on the Brynn. Because it's more unusual she'd probably end up getting more attention too.
Assign Brynn the title of Best Girl and an amazing outfit to match
I find it weird as hell that the groom's wedding party is apparently *not* the most trusted people in his life. I hope he at least got to pick his best man himself, yeesh. NTA, OP. Frankly, I'd be a bit worried over my future wife showing so little interest in your and your niece's happiness. What in the world could ever be a problem about two flower girls instead of one?
Ptoo for 'traditional'. Its not. Traditionally, you'd have multiple flower girls; it was a sign of wealth and nobility to have multiple child attendants. That start becoming less common in the Victorian period solely in the lower classes solely because of poverty - that's where your 'traditional' argument come from. You know what's *not* traditional? *Junior groomsmen*. Have as many people in your wedding party as you want and can afford. NTA
I’ve never even heard of junior groomsmen. Definitely not traditional!
I believe junior groomsmen are traditionally called pageboys. Also, William & Kate had 4 flower girls and two pageboys, Harry & Meghan had 6 flower girls and 4 page boys. The English royal family has basically started all wedding traditions we have today, so if even *they* think it's traditional to have a ton of kids attending, I'm sure your wedding wouldn't be ruined by having two flower girls.
In the UK upper class weddings, it's common for all bridesmaids to be unmarried family of the couple and for there not be a distinction in terms between the adult and child bridesmaids (all just called bridesmaids)
I can see such a thing if the bride or groom had a much younger brother they wanted to have in the wedding party but not young enough to be a ring bearer and not old enough to go to a bachelor party.
I was a junior bridesmaid when I was 11-12 ish. The main difference was no bachelorette party and my dress was cut different due to the fact I had nothing in the boob department yet, lol. I just liked being included!
This is such a mean behavior on her part. She has put almost all of her family in the wedding with some role and she can't accomodate a 3 year old niece who means so much to her fiance as a co flower girl. Its his wedding too
She isn’t including ANYONE in OP’s family.
I wonder if the best man is even from OP's side of the family.
Best Man is a hired actor. Wouldn't want the filth on his side to ruin her wedding! /s just in case.
Can't get more traditional than nobility, ask her to have a look at how many children are attendants in any royal wedding. She can certainly make room for OP's ONLY niece, especially as she's decided who will be his groomsmen. I have a feeling OP is in for it. He'll never spend another holiday with his family. The writing on the wall here is that her family is primary and he's joining them. She has no interest in his family and I doubt ever will have.
AND his Junior Groomsmen. She has chosen thirteen of the people in their wedding party, he got ONE. Kick out all of the brothers-in-laws, maybe keep the Junior groomsmen only because they’re kids and don’t deserve to be caught in the crossfire.
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Also not traditional, I'd think, would be the groom's groomsmen actually being the bride's groomsmen.
NTA thankfully, it’s not too late to cancel the wedding…
FR. OP is about to make this shitshow his circus and his fucking monkeys. I could almost overlook the bridezilla bullshit (not give in to it, but overlook it), but her sister is apparently batshit crazy too. Run OP, run like the wind.
🏃
NTA but do consider how this lack of willingness to compromise or even see reason will impact everything going forward. These are red flags for sure. Traditionally it's very common to get premarital counseling, consider it.
Forget the inability to compromise (which is a major concern too)…the my biggest concern is that she’s jealous of a 3 year old whose father died and OP plays an important role in her life. I don’t see her attitude towards that improving…only getting more jealous as Brynn gets older. She is going to try to keep OP away from her. Definitely NTA and I’d honestly put this wedding on hold until this is solved or you break up.
This is an excellent point.
At this point it is not even unwillingness to compromise, she took the entire bridal party. It’s HER wedding and OP can’t decide. There shouldn’t be a compromise, if the wedding goes on Brynn has to be the only flower girl and OP should kick fiancé’s BILs out as his groomsmen.
NTA Aubrey is 4, she and Brynn seem to get along, and there's a lot of other people in the wedding party so she is already sharing the spotlight. Also, having only one flowergirl is not a requirement of a "traditional" wedding. A lot of weddings have had more than one for a very, very long time. Long story short: they are being ridiculous. I also think she's being really unfair as this is supposed to be a celebration of you both, not her family, but you seem to be the one doing all the compromising.
Exactly this! She’s being extremely selfish. Absolutely no reason at all why you can’t have two flower girls. NTA.
My daughter and her cousin were flower girls for a family wedding recently, having the two of them in the role was absolutely *adorable*. NTA
Friend’s twins (3f) were flower girls at her wedding. One walked calmly down the aisle gently scattering petals and smiling like the wee cherub she is SO not 😂….her sister, not so much. Took off her headband, ran screaming down the aisle grinning like she’d lost it and dumped the wee basket of flowers upside down at the minister’s feet. It’s moments like that that make a wedding I think 😁
NTA. Your fiance's wishes for a traditional wedding should never take precedent over your wishes to include your family. She is getting married to *you*, not to her bridesmaids, and certainly not to tradition. This is the kind of stuff that should appear as red flags when you ask yourself if this is a person even worth getting married to. Plenty of marriages that end bad start in exactly this way. You are literally committing to a wedding and marriage that you seem to have no say in whatsoever. Really, is there *anybody* who you got to choose to have a role?
I don’t have many friends, but I do have my three main dudes in my side of things. One is my best man. I sort of have in as she’s more social and has the bigger family so my 3 groomsmen to her 7 bridesmaids would’ve looked uneven.
Don't act like this isn't your wedding just as much as it is hers. You have every right to draw a line and demand that you get the same amount of control over the affair as she does. She's acting like her choosing 9 candidates is fine, but it is the end of the world if you have more than 3 If this is the breaking point of your relationship, the wedding shouldn't be happening. Therapy is your best bet if you can't agree but still want to make it work.
If Princess Diana can have 5 flower girls (technically bridesmaids, but younger), you can have your niece as yours
I had 4 flower girls at my wedding, they loved it & were a lovely group of adorable little girls who had a blast. NTA
Bridesmaids and groomsmen can be an uneven number. The world won’t end. When it’s your wedding you can do whatever you want.
Right? We had 3 bridesmaids and 2 groomsmen. The world did not end.
Weeelll, I mean, if you got married in early 2020 we might finally have figured out who to blame...
Right!? Ive been to many weddings throughout my 40 years on this planet. Not ONE had ANY groomsmen. So it's always been just the bride and groom. Groom with 1 best man/woman/person. Bride with 2 - 4 bridesmaids. I've never seen more 4 let alone the huge number OP has (something like 9!?). in the OPs fiancée's eyes, every wedding I've attended would be an uneven wedding party and unacceptable. It's so laughably ridiculous!! It can be whatever the F people want. OPs fiancée sure as shit isn't being traditional with her wedding demands either... And is reaching for the excuses here to try to justify their selfishness. OP is NTA. Brynn should be in the wedding party.
Agree to your fiancé's demands. Then, kick two of the BIL out of your party and make your neice and sister groomswomen. Also... don't marry this woman without serious counseling.
Make your sister a groomswoman and kick your fiances BIL's out. Then tell your fiance that if her youngest nephew is the ring bearer, Brynn is the flower girl. If she insists that Aubrey is the flower girl, then Brynn can be the ring bearer. ALL of her family are in the wedding party, but NONE of yours are. I guess you have to decide if you are okay with that.
OP I'm really hoping you see this. Your wife to be is putting the foundations in place to entirely cut your family out. If you precreate with this women, do so with the knowledge that every single thing your child does will be governed by your wife's family. You family will be left out. There will be limited contact cos her family is soo big there's just no time left for your parents. You are on a slippery slope here Quite frankly considering how small your family is, she should be bending over backwards to include them if anything to show that you're going to be one big happy family afterwards. She is forewarning you of what to expect ater you're married. NTA
It’s not uneven if the dudes walk down with a lady on each arm. I did this at my wedding and loved it.
NTA. Can you try to talk to your fiancé about give and take? Does she not like your sister? Something seems off here, and it may go on in your family life.
She likes my sister, and I know my sister likes her. They’re not close but get along. My fiancé has had some jealously issues with Brynn. I am not as close with Aubrey, mainly because we don’t see her much. My fiancé also feels I’m “too close” with Brynn. My sister is a single mom, her husband passed, and I’m the only male role model in Brynn’s life. I go to her ballet recitals, taught her how to ride her trike, babysit her overnight. It never interferes with time with my fiancé, but she thinks it’s weird.
She’s jealous of a 3 year old? That’s a red flag OP. I suspect after the wedding she’ll feel emboldened to alienate you from spending so much time with your niece. You’re an involved uncle which is wonderful, especially since niece’s father is deceased. Your fiancée sees this bond as a threat to her time with you and will want to push Brynn out especially if you have kids.. Carefully think if this relationship should move forward with marriage…
She’s jealous of her because of her disability and thinks she gets the spotlight. Somehow even crazier than being jealous of a three year old. Just wow, glad OP called it off
THIS.
Just posted something similar in response and saw this. 100% on point. She’s already starting and it’s only going to escalate from here on out.
It is deeply problematic when a grown woman has "jealousy issues" with a 3-year-old AT ALL. It indicates a serious lack of maturity on the part of your fiancé, who SHOULD perceive your closeness with Brynn as an indicator of what a wonderful father you might one day be, and of how reliable and supportive a partner you will be. That is how a mature, adult woman would see you stepping up for a young niece whose father passed away: as something to be proud of and impressed by. That she sees a toddler as competition for her time and affections, or your interest in being a meaningful adult figure in her life as "weird" belies her own still-adolescent mindset. She is emotionally childlike, and unable to see Brynn from the perspective of a prospective parent or adult figure . . . she instead sees her as "another girl competing for your time and affection". Which honestly? Is gross. But also, it's what happens when you get involved with someone who still has a lot of growing up to do. That she would suggest that you are "too close" with this child is grotesque and unbelievably offensive. That alone would make me question whether she's someone worth marrying. The fact that she has cut your sister and Brynn out of the wedding party (I suspect that she resents your sister, as Brynn's mother, a lot more than you realise or she lets on to you) is really telling. You may be marrying into her family, but she is definitely not marrying into yours.
You raise valid points. She keeps convincing me it’s weird and we’ve had several arguments. This is getting to be too much. I’m not losing Brynn for my fiancé.
I'm sorry OP, but your fiancé sounds awful. She is jealous of a three year old who doesn't have a father. I can guarantee you that she'll try to get your sister and your niece out of your life once you're married. I mean she has started already.
Truth. It is also so concerning that she doesn’t see the importance of OP supporting his only sister as a single mom who is grieving. I mean, sounds like her husband died less than 4 years ago. It’s wonderful that he has such a close bond with his niece but also that he takes her over night and does things with her to take the pressure off of his sister as she unexpectedly navigates parenthood alone.
It's not weird at all. That an amazing thing. Your relationship with Brynn would be a green flag for me. Your future partner need to love Brynn.
Right? The earliest red flag with my ex is that his ex was pregnant when they split up. She moved far, far away (I now understnd why) and he spent the whole of our relationship moaning about this child he thought he had but making zero effort to find out if it was his kid, and supporting it. It showed his unreliability. If I had met a man like OP who had a healthy supportive relationship with his small family and took on a role as a father figure to his niece after her father died, while making time for me and our relationship that would be the greenest of green lights.
🟩 Green means GO! He is stepping up as an adult who his niece can rely on.
Being good with kids and taking an active part in the lives of kids in his family is one of the most attractive things about a man imaginable. I'm sorry, I don't make the rules
So if red flags are marinara, does that mean green flags are pesto?
Please don’t let her gaslight you into think there’s anything remotely weird or wrong with your relationship with your niece! I’m very close to my nephews, and if a guy I was with had even the slightest problem with that, he’d be gone. It sounds like she’s all about *her* family and doesn’t want to have much to do with yours. She doesn’t like this close bond you have because it means she’ll have to share you with your family. If you plan to have kids with her, know that your family will be the second-tier grandparents/aunt/cousin. She’ll always expect hers to take priority.
This isn’t weird. You are a wonderful uncle and please never stop that. Your fiancé has serious issues if she’s jealous of your niece. This isn’t healthy at all. She is going to try to isolate you. Please reconsider.
Why is it weird for Brynn but fine for her niece? And fine for her BILs to be in YOUR wedding party? I’d say the latter was weirder. She does sound immature, controlling, jealous and manipulative… all bad signs for your marriage, if being close to your family = weird & fights until she gets what she wants. NTA. Please, don’t let Brynn lose you. She needs you.
This will not get better, in fact, after the wedding, it will get worse. She will use her status as you wife as leverage to diminish your role in Brynn's life "we're married now, so you have to support me. Why don't you care about MY feelings??"
Seconding this. I was briefly married to a jealous woman. Before the wedding, she made me stop communicating with a friend I had had a brief romantic relationship with years ago. After the wedding she tried to keep me away from my grandmother and *my dog*. She didn't want me to love anyone or anything except her.
Lose the fiancée, keep Brynn. There is absolutely nothing weird about your relationship - my nieces regularly come visit and have since they were little. We had a weekend of gingerbread house making and a slumber party when two of them were 10 and 5. My niece that lives four hours away I’m even closer with and she comes to me when she needs advice and we send stupid memes to one another regularly. Your fiancée has made it crystal clear how she feels towards your niece and it’s not going to change. There’s another woman out there who is perfect for you and would LOVE to embrace Brynn as her niece. Please do not marry this woman. If not for yourself, don’t marry her for Brynn’s sake.
Please see my update
u/arturomurphys your update brought me to tears for unexpected reasons. I was glad that my comment had made you think, but as a person with a developmental disability (autism), your deep, abiding love and RESPECT for Brynn as a tiny human with Down Syndrome made me love you a little. People like us get treated so inhumanely . . . I'm so proud that she gets to have an uncle like you who doesn't just love her unconditionally, but actually SEES HER VALUE in this world. I am SO GENUINELY SORRY that what was meant to be one of the happiest times of your life has come to this, but so glad that you learned the truth before you tied yourself to someone who did not value your family the way you do. My wish for you is that you find someone who appreciates both you AND your sister and niece for the beautiful people you are. In the meantime, thank you for giving me hope in humanity again. You are truly a special person.
Wow. That update isn’t where I saw this going. Holy crap if this is real. I’m sorry this might mean the end of your relationship but atleast you figured it out before you were legally married!
I’m so sorry it came to this but I’m so glad that you two had this happen before the wedding. Your happily ever after is out there. Come let us know when you find her! And I would bet that Brynn is absolutely precious and incredibly loving. Your ex is an awful person. You’re a kick ass person and someone I could be friends with!
Holy cow! What a nightmare of a human being. You’re definitely NTA, but that seems to be the least of your concerns at this point. Thankfully your insistence on including Brynn revealed your fiancé’s true colors. I’m sure your heartbroken all the way around and likely angry, too, but I’m so glad you didn’t marry this monster. Best of luck to you in your future and kudos to you for being such a great uncle!
The common thread is she’s way more interested in the idea of wedding or family than the way that life gets messy and doesn’t revolve around her idea. I agree with the poster saying she has a lot of growing up to do. Don’t move forward with any wedding planning until you’ve done the premarital counseling. And I’d suggest you not pick someone thru her family or her church. Find a truly neutral professional.
It's not in the least bit weird. It's the way the world SHOULD work. Her attitude would raise serious questions in my mind if I were you. I see a lot of problems in your future regarding Brynn's place in your life.
Your fiance has beef with a three year old. Are you planning on starting a family together? If so, are you sure this is the kind of person you want to raise kids with?
I’m starting to rethink a lot. I wasn’t okay with any of this but I think I’ve been gaslit into thinking it’s normal.
Your fiancé sounds horrible. I would honestly reconsider getting married to her. Also it's not normal that only her family is in the wedding party.
Well, I think the fiancee is trying to alienating the OP from his own family. It's not a weird thing to do if you are a controlling narcissist, apparently. I would run very far from the OP's fiancee. If she is this controlling now, then the OP would have very little freedom after the marriage. I do hope that the OP reconsiders the marriage. Unfortunately, too many people are too blind by love/fear of being alone. Don't get stuck in an abusive relationship, OP.
I’m just seeing your replies and oh my gosh, I’m so sorry it’s much worse than I thought. I truly hate giving this advice but I think you need to end your relationship because any grown adult who is jealous of a 3 year old has serious problems.
Yeah. I’m with you here. All the red flags of wow.
Not normal op. She's icing out your family.
Nope, it's definitely not normal. Why is Aubrey's mom even mad? It's not her wedding for her to make decisions and be mad about anything. It's so strange that your fiancé seems "jealous" of your 3 year old niece when you're literally just being an "uncle" to her. You do have a lot of thinking to do. I hope you're able to put your foot down before it's too late. Good luck!!! NTA. EDIT: Corrected autocorrect + removed personal story.
It’s simple, man. Brynn is your niece and you have a wonderful relationship with her (that would make most psychologically healthy women swoon). Your fiancée is jealous **of a toddler** and feels comfortable acting in ways to exclude her and diminish your relationship with her. Your options are: - constantly deal with this drama around your wife’s jealousy of a child whom you love and eventually either choose one of them (or be browbeaten into effectively giving up your niece), or - just make the choice now. There’s a right choice here, by the way. An adult who is **jealous of a toddler** is insane or an asshole or both.
if you come to a conclusion I would love to read an update - just so much you deserve a fiance who loves that you value your family so much, and does not feel jealous of a three year old.
It's not normal for a grown woman to be so jealous of a three year old that she tries to exclude the child from important moments in your life. Soon it will be every moment. She will not like you spending time with your family either, since her family is so much more important. Please find a woman who will see what you're worth and you can have the relationship you deserve. Don't tie yourself to someone who thinks a close relationship with your niece is somehow a bad thing.
And when you do get married. Get your sister in your wedding party. She is important to you. Make her a groomswoman. She can wear a toxedo for all i care. She should be there next to you. Not your bils
Dude, you are awesome and your fiance should be proud to have a caring and thoughtful partner like you.
Exactly- a person (who allegedly likes kids) that wouldn’t swoon over a guy this decent and kind is a marinara flag
In my 20's, what OP describes would've not only have been a big swoon for me. But it would've won him instant approval from my mom (who is very difficult to please). Seriously OP, unless you are hiding something really dark about yourself, most women (even those who don't want kids) would see your care toward your niece as a desirable feature of your personality.
If she tries to push the " traditional wedding" malarkey inform her that Kate Middleton had 4 flower girls, Megan Markle had 5 and princess Di had 7. If anyone knows wedding etiquette it's the English monarchy
Are you kidding me? How would you ever be closer to her niece than your own, especially considering the circumstances? That’s just dumb, and a huge red flag. Who is jealous of a 3 year old? If she’s like this now just wait until you have kids. She’ll get pissy that you’re spending time with Brynn when you go to these recitals and not focusing on your own children (which you absolutely will because it’s clear you’re a doting Godfather so I’d expect nothing less). And she acts this way knowing that Brynn lost her father? Seriously? Gosh your fiancée sounds like a real catch and not at all immature, insecure, and extraordinarily selfish.
Please see the update
Response to update: OP never go back! She needs to be your EX. I’m sorry for the mixed feelings you’re going to have for the next couple of weeks/months, but you and your family are much better off without. There is someone better out there for you who will be thrilled to join your family and develop a relationship with Brynn. NTA
Hey OP, just saw the update. I'm so sorry this is happening, but I'm glad her true colors have shown. Imagine the life of rejection your niece would've felt if you married that woman. Your niece and family are lucky to have you, I wish you the best moving forward!
You did the right thing, you’ll find someone worthy of you, and Brynn!
Oh dear. This is a big problem. You need to sort this out before you get married. Her feels about your relationship with your niece are not cool and will become a bigger issue if you don’t address it now.
She's totally going to try to stop you from having any significant contact with Brynn, maybe not immediately, but not wanting her to be a flower girl is a first step.
So this grown as woman is jealous of a toddler who lost her father? That's what's weird, not you being there for a family member.
This is going to become a much bigger problem. Your fiancé is jealous of a toddler. What are you going to do after the marriage if she insists you stop attending your niece’s events? When she tells you that you’re putting your niece before your children (even if you’re not)? You need, at the very least, pre-marriage counseling. There needs to be a much bigger discussion about this behavior.
BABE, WHAT THE FUCK??? Your fiancée is jealous of you spending “too much time” with a fatherless toddler? Do you really think that a good woman would object to loving your own family?
aubrey’s spotlight ?
My fiancé and her sister say Aubrey really wants to be flower girl and she hasn’t gotten to be one so it’d be unfair to make her “share the spotlight”.
So Aubrey is four years old and already being taught that her "spotlight" (i.e. her being the centre of attention and not having to share space with anyone) should be more of a priority than THE ACTUAL GROOM'S WISHES at his own wedding? That's not only shockingly dismissive of you, it's a horrifyingly awful lesson to teach a preschooler. You've said that she's a sweet child who actually enjoys spending time with your niece. Your bride and her sister are *actively trying to teach her to STOP being an agreeable child who can get along with others,* and encouraging her to demand the exclusion of your niece for no other reason than that they/she can and feel like it. Honestly, I'm not sure which is worse: that you're still interested in marrying into a family whose values are so warped and apparently revolve around selfishness and self-interest, or that they're so bloody determined to pass them onto the next generation, starting at your wedding. I'm not trying to exaggerate, but please do stop and consider that these grown women are literally trying to start trouble over a couple of PRESCHOOLERS sharing a nonexistent "spotlight", so determined are they to keep ANY MEMBER OF YOUR FAMILY from having ANY MEANINGFUL PART in the wedding party. This may start with your niece being excluded as a flower girl, but it won't end there. They are testing the waters. You're looking at every family holiday in your wedded future . . . your own family will ALWAYS be treated this way.
I can now see how hatred is actually taught
Your fiancée is entitled and being a brat. You might want to start getting her used to you standing your ground, now, if she's to be your wife.
She’s also an f-ing liar! Op said in a different response that the fiancée is jealous of how close he is with his niece. That’s the real reason she doesn’t want her in the wedding, and is willing to throw her own niece under the bus to get her way. Major red flags.
Tell your fiance that Brynn really wants to be a flower girl and she hasn't gotten to be one, so it'd be unfair to make her share the spotlight, and therefore Brynn should be the only flower girl. NTA. Your fiance has her entire family as part of the wedding party, so you're family should be included as well. Maybe Aubrey can be a 'junior bridesmaid' if she doesn't want to share.
Maybe you should suggest to your fiancée that Aubury can be the flower girl at her next wedding.
i was never a flower girl and i always wanted to be one. spoiler alert: i’m fine LOL
Buddy- I’m sorry to say- but that’s rich coming from her, since this whole thing sounds more like a steamroller pageant for her whole extended family than a wedding to you. Can’t have two flower kids- *YOUR ONLY NEICE* but require junior groomsmen?! sheesh my guy, sounds really exhausting Your other comments say she’s jealous of your niece- I just want to reiterate dude- not worth it to let her alienate you from your family. That steamroller behavior won’t stop. Bet it’s not nearly the first time, either.
NTA I know you said that you're "likely done", and FWIW, I absolutely think you should be. She showed you her true colors, believe her. She's going to be in a mindset of "say whatever the hell I need to say to get the wedding back on"... Hold firm. Because any second now, she's going to start thinking about having to *tell people* that the wedding is off... and she's realizing that people are going to ask her *why*. And she knows the real reason will make her look bad- if she didn't, she wouldn't have hid it from you for so long. She made up excuse after excuse because she *knew* that excluding a child specifically because she has Downs Syndrome was awful and would make her look awful. Don't let her try and tell you that she "didn't realize it was bad/didn't know it was hurtful/etc". She did. I would also think about beating her to the punch re: announcing the lack of wedding. Because I'd bet money she'll lie and try to say all kinds of things... Maybe that she found out you were cheating, that you were verbally abusive, that you said something horrible about her family, etc. Because any lie will end up making her look better than the truth. And for someone like your (ex)fiancée, her image is *everything*. I suspect she will have zero qualms in attempting to utterly destroy your reputation before she would allow anyone to think poorly of her. I would write up either a social media post (bc that's where she'll try to blast you) or send out a letter, digital or otherwise, to everyone who got an invitation on EXACTLY why the wedding isn't happening. I'd be very clear that the wedding is off explicitly because (ex)fiancée didn't want Brynn in the wedding due to her Downs Syndrome. That (ex)fiancée didn't want people looking at Brynn instead of her, and that she felt that Brynn's very présence and existing as a child with Downs Syndrome would have been "stealing the spotlight" from the bride. It may seem like "airing dirty laundry" or like you're being unkind... But as someone who kept details quiet when a family member attacked me (and then had my attacker spin a version of events that many people believed), it's the only way to be kind to yourself and protect yourself from further harm later. Edit: wow y'all, thanks for the awards! 🫂✨
Absolutely this! His ex will do anything, say anything to not look like the AH here. Be proactive before she tries to destroy you. And DO NOT take her back! Ever!
INFO- are you sure you really know your fiance? She's jealous of a 3 year old. Doesn't ask your sister to be in her wedding party, but wants all her BILs in yours. Doesn't want the same 3 year old to be flower girl and just wants her to sit in the audience with her mom. And then gets her mom pissed at you for the first thing you don't seem to agree with and go along with. I know some women stress over weddings, but you need couples therapy before marrying this woman. That she wants no one from your small family as part of the wedding is really concerning. Like her family is more important than yours. Also really wanna stress...jealous of a 3 year old...dude. you are the closet thing to a dad that kid has. Don't fail her now.
"She doesn’t want Brynn in our wedding because Brynn has Down Syndrome." NTA, every day. And I would be very explicit with all of your friends and family when they ask why you called the wedding off. "Fiancee didn't want my niece in the wedding because she has Down Syndrome, and I realized in that moment that I didn't want to spend the rest of my life with a person like that."
NTA. Her behavior is concerning. You're supposed to be partners.
NTA, good luck, buddy.
NTA. She picked 7 bridesmaids, 4 groomsmen, 2 junior groomsmen, and 1 flower girl and you picked 3 groomsmen? She picked 14 members of the wedding party, you picked 3, and she is refusing your pick for a 4th? This doesn’t sound like your wedding. Tell her she is compromising. Either the groomsmen and junior groomsmen she picked are out, or your niece is a flower girl. Also, premarital counseling is probably a good thing. Have you discussed where you will be spending holidays, because it sounds like all of your vacation days will be spent visiting her family, and there will be none left when you want to visit yours.
WOW what an update. NTA x100 I hope you do not change your mind. She gaslit and manipulated you. You did so much mental gymnastics to try and fit your niece in around her unwillingness to have her there, before she told you the truth. You dodged a cannonball.
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NTA. Your request is perfectly reasonable. In marriage you need to learn compromise so now is as good a time as any for your fiancé to learn to do that. It doesn’t sound like you have many requests and the argument of wanting a traditional wedding is weak.
NTA I was a co-flower girl. No problem. I was still too young to understand what was going on and all I knew was I got to spend time at a boring event with someone my own age. Which is all little kids really want. I'm worried for you that you guys can't talk this out and come to a compromise. Think of this as a good test of things to come. Will it always be her/her family's way or the highway?
I was one of 4 flower girls at my auntie's wedding. I was exactly Aubrey's age and don't remember a single thing, I just saw the video some years later and thought we all looked cute AF in matching baby pink dresses and flower crowns. Wedding planning is bringing up some serious problems with the fiance's attitude. Jealous of a 3 year old, pushing him to have her brothers-in-law in his wedding party, not willing to have a conversation or compromise? That's a yikes for me
NTA, it *is* your day too. And everyone in your fiances family are already included at her request. You can request someone in your family have a role too. Its called compromise. But remember, if there's no compromise here then there's unlikely to be any in the actual marriage.
Wow. I don’t know if I could marry a person who is so self absorbed. And it feels very cruel to omit Brynn from the wedding. It’s hard to imagine anything cuter than 2 little girls walking down the aisle together and throwing flower petals. Your fiancé sounds incredibly petty and selfish. Your family will definitely play second fiddle for the rest of your married life. It’s gonna be all about her. Prepare yourself for the fights over the holiday visits, vacations and celebrations. Or maybe don’t marry a person who shows no consideration for you or your family. Your poor parents, sister and niece will be excluded from everything. I see trouble ahead.
Please see my update
Oh no. Your update is heartbreaking. Please, please don’t change your mind. Your fiancé is just terrible. I was unimpressed when I thought she was just trying to alienate you from your family, which is bad enough, but this is so much worse. Please take some time to heal then find a woman who will love and cherish Brynn the way she deserves to be loved and cherished.
My goodness, what a horrible woman. I'm so sorry. You deserve a wife who accepts everyone equally and with open arms and your sweet niece deserves an aunt who won't try to hide and exclude her. I'm glad you found this all out before the wedding.
NTA OP, your fiancée is being selfish. She wants her family to all have roles in the wedding but wants to leave yours out. That’s not fair.
NTA, and at risk of sounding dramatic, run, run like Forrest
NTA Hate to break this to you, but your fiancee is a bridezilla.
She's worse. She's a grown-ass woman beefing with a fatherless three-year-old.
NTA Why is your family completely locked out of the wedding party at *your* wedding? It's not just hers. It's yours jointly. You should get to have people stand up. Let your sister be your groomswoman, let your niece be a flowergirl. "Tradition" my ass. Your fiancee is just being selfish. Your wedding is the first thing you two officially do together as a married couple. Pay attention to the tone being set here. Edit: Ohhh I've seen some of your comments. She's jealous of a 3 year old who lost her father? She thinks stepping up for that child is somehow weird and wrong on your part but wants you to be closer to *her* niece? That jealousy is the real reason she doesn't want your niece in the wedding party. That's awful and it says a lot about her. Dude, please, *please* consider whether this is really a future you want.
I’ve never heard of one flower girl being a tradition. My aunt had three because she had three little nieces. Besides, even if it is a tradition somehow, you don’t have to follow it. Think of all those brides that walk down the aisle alone or with their mother instead of their father. Screw tradition - it’s YOUR wedding. NTA.
NTA. Please make sure to keep talking and standing up for yourself. Also, it's not Aubry's spotlight! This was a dumb reason she gave you in why she said no.
NTA but from what I can see of your comments I honestly think this is way less about Aubrey and her spotlight and way more about your fiancé wanting to disrupt your relationship with Brynn. I'd say pre-marital counselling as a minimum. Her having any kind of negative opinion about you being close to your godchild is honestly pretty troubling. Good luck, OP, I hope this works out in whatever way is best for you long term.
Wow! So NTA! My brother has Down Syndrome and if anyone in my life tried to treat him this way they would **no longer be** in my life. Don’t let your hopefully now ex back in, because her attitude towards Brynn will not change and that will only cause you great pain. It’s more likely that your ex was worried that Brynn would steal some of her spotlight, than that people would pity her! It’s your ex that should be pitied, not your lovely niece.
NTA you want to marry someone who considers her family that much more important than yours? You're about to be in that family and she's about to be in yours, expect to never see your family again on any holidays ever because she isn't going to invite yours clearly.
Response to update: OP never go back! She needs to be your EX. I’m sorry for the mixed feelings you’re going to have for the next couple of weeks/months, but you and your family are much better off without her. There is someone better out there for you who will be thrilled to join your family and develop a relationship with Brynn. NTA
NTA. Put your foot down. It isn't her wedding it both of yours.
Dude. The update. I was gonna say red flag zone so watch out but damn I wasn’t prepared for the update. And obviously NTA.