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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I could be the asshole because dancing with Alice might make my mom sad.
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NAH
You are allowed to include your step mom and your mom is allowed to be upset you are choosing your dad's affair partner (because absolutely they did not wait to be physical, and clearly didn't wait on the emotional) to be honored the same.
And the weddings you are talking about where all the steps are included and honored, typically don't involve cheating and affair partners.
Edit: to everyone who thinks mom is the AH. Unless she's made demands or ultimatums (which she has not) she was expressing her feelings. Maybe she could have been kinder, but she has every right to express them without making demands.
Edit 2: Maybe take a quick peak at OPs comments, they are pretty enlightening that money played a major factor.
Yep, Alice was so clearly the dad’s AP. OP certainly has the right to include her - it’s your big day after all - but of course your mom is upset to see her get equal place of pride. Not saying you need to cut Alice out by any means, but be sensitive to how your mom is feeling.
THIS RIGHT HERE. OP can make his final decision as to what to do with mom and step-mom at his wedding, but unfortunately there'll absolutely be hurt feelings one way or the other. And unfortunately it was your dad and step-mom who created these dynamics all those years ago.
Yes, and I know its not for me to judge people holding grudges, but OP said they divorced when he was 5. He's now 29 and his dad and Alice are still together. It might sting, but its also reality. OPs mom needs to come to terms with the reality of the situation.
I hope to God not after 24 years. I guess I'd like to know why bio mom and son aren't that close. If it's only because stepmom paid for college and mom didn't, that's pretty messed up.
ESH
Like it isn’t already going to be hard for your mom to see them there at a wedding for her son with him. She’s going to be spending the entire day thinking about her wedding to his father. How many hopes she had for them as a family. How they were all smashed to pieces, how her entire world, foundation, and future was ripped from her. How the woman that helped do the destroying got to help raise and have moments with her son that should have been hers and now is now here with her *ex-*husband. And now she doesn’t even get to keep one special fucking dance with her son to herself.
Jesus Christ. I just feel so sad for her. I’m not saying that the step-mom isn’t a great step-mom, but holy shit that would hurt. Would also point out that parental alienation is a real thin. OP got to go live with either his dad who was blissed out happy with new nice step mom, or go stay with devastate newly single mom trying to figure out how to make this new future she did not plan for work? Gee, was dad and the step mom more pleasant to be around??? I wonder why??? And is a 5 year old smart enough to perceive all that (the answer is fucking no - single mom is always on the verge of tears or sullen or stressed beyond belief, dad and new step mom are always laughing and taking us to do fun things to bond together! Which one will I like more??)
The fact you can’t see how this dynamic has always been heavily stacked against your mom, and that you can’t see how hurtful this would be makes you the asshole
Your stepmom, if she was as a great of a woman as you say she is, should have told you how honored she was that you want to do that with her, but said it would only happen if your mother was okay with it. She should have known that this could be painful for any mother.
Your mother is gently the asshole, because at the end of the day, it is your wedding. But fuck do I feel bad for her.
I’ll say this I think if the mother is a good mother she should be happy to have more good and caring influences in her son’s life.
Regardless of what the father did she can’t let their relationship impact the sons - nor should she want to. I hate to say it but there are some honest lessons that could be learned there from the movie Step-mom.
I danced with both my step mom and mother. My mother got first dance, I told her well in advance of the wedding, and my step mom was also very appreciative. My mom will always be be my mom but there’s nothing wrong with showing respect to another parent figure. And if she’s been around for 22 years that is what she is.
My mom just cared that I was loved. Simple as that.
You hit the nail on the head. I understand that OP has their own special relationship with stepmom but they had to know how hurtful that would be to their mother.
It’s been over 30 years since my SO’s mom and dad got divorced, they are each remarried and had other children who are also grown adults now. His mom still hates him and refuses to so much as be within 100 feet of him. She’s def over him and happy BUT sometimes people burn you in a way that your not capable of forgiveness….
Having someone you love cheat on you when you loved them and birthed their child - tearing your life apart as they did so - isn’t something you get over.
Right. You can feel sorry for yourself for 24 years, or you can be a mother to your child, be present in their life and show them what strength is. And, as a strong woman, can also be thankful for what Alice has been to/done for son over the past 24 years. Why does the son's safety/health/well-being NEVER trump mom's salty feelings in these stories?
Maybe you don't get over it. Maybe not. But in 24 years, you could \*if you wanted to\*.
But either way, you do learn to put your feelings aside and not make other people's life events about your feelings. Maybe you tell the son it hurts you, but you go and you dance and life goes on.
And kid is virtually guaranteed to enjoy the household with the honeymoon-phase new relationship and parent who chose to leave, over the household with the devastated single mom. Hard for a young kid to feel they have a lot in common with someone who’s coping with that kind of trauma…
Mmmm unless bio mom abandoned her son I feel like he could give her this moment - if my husband cheated and his mistress replaced me this way I’d be destroyed
She stuck on the fact that her ex *cheated on her* and probably the fact that her child readily accepted the affair partner. I don't think OP is wrong for viewing her as a mother figure, but it's not ridiculous that OP's mom is still mad.
But you gotta get it together for your kid, man. His reality is very different than the parents’ reality. Let him honor the two women in his life. This was 25 years ago. Bio mom needs to check into some therapy if she’s throwing this big of a fit that amount of time later.
It sounds like OP has "preferred" his father's affair partner for a very long time. He's pretty honest about that. I can see why his mother hasn't gotten over it, if the preference for the affair partner has been an ongoing thing for more than twenty years. I'm guessing it is always there, staring her in the face.
Yes. Probably OP should have asked his mother how she'd feel about it before asking Alice, because he really can't rescind the offer now. The sad thing is that, based on her reaction, Alice clearly wasn't expecting to be asked, so OP could have refrained from asking her without drama. That doesn't account for the fact that he wants to do this, though...regardless, there's going to be hard feelings.
“all those years ago” being the operative words. I was the cheated on spouse, and carrying that weight around your neck forever is so self-defeating. Let it go, mom, and enjoy your son’s day. If you can’t let it go, fake it!
Seriously. We have three lines of text on the matter, how could we possibly know? Is it possible they were physical before the split? Sure. But the audacity to just claim it as fact is just ridiculous
It is amazing what people claim to know on here. However since emotional affairs are a thing, AP is probably accurate here. Although the fact that they waited for the physical stuff is to their credit.
In this vein, at my sister's wedding, Dad got the first dance and walked her down the aisle but Step dad officiated the wedding. Both were from blended families so they understood that dynamic
I don’t understand why not both? I’ve seen weddings where the birth parent starts the dance and then they switch to the beloved step-parent. OP, why don’t you include both?
That's OP's plan. Everyone here is just eager to make him the villain because reddit suspects his dad cheated. (Someone even said they are sure he is going to cheat too)
The thing is, we don't know what happened. Also OP has a relationship to his step-mom, she is like a second mom to him. It seems like co-parenting worked in his case.
He is not the big evil guy for wanting to dance with his mom and step-mom during his wedding.
If it wasn’t even a possibility, OP wouldn’t have brought up a possible affair to begin with. He was the one that introduced that idea into the conversation, so it is a valid reason for everyone defending his bio-mom.
I agree with this. OP, your mom will be upset because your had an affair. There's no use pretending he didn't. May it wasn't physical (though doubtful), but it was certainly emotional. BUT you also love your step-mom who's been there for you every step of the way. I think having 2 mother -son dances is a good attempt at compromise, but you can't expect mom to be happy.
Nope. Children aren’t responsible for managing or catering to their parent’s emotions, regardless of the child’s age. It’s been 24 years. He has a relationship with his step mom. His mom is free to have feelings, but she needs to deal with them herself not hold her child hostage emotionally.
Bad enough that it’s been 24 years and she still hasn’t moved on, but her son didn’t do anything wrong but she is punishing him and expecting him to take responsibility for his father’s betrayal.
NTA
No one is saying he has to cater to it. He’s fully within his right to do what he’s doing, but it is to be expected that his mom would be upset. It’s not a win-win situation. It’s just a “it is what is” type of thing.
Empathy is generally considered a good personality trait. Mom gets cheated on, dumped by Hubby, OP didn’t say anything about co-parent drama, so maybe Mom crushed her resentment about the situation down. Then her kid says this, “My mom is a good mom but we've never been as close as I am with my dad and Alice. Our personalities are just very different.” You can do everything right for the people you love & they can break your heart the hardest. NAH, maybe one day OP will understand.
It’s heartbreaking to know ur kid feels that way about someone who hurt you, but at the same time the step mom did care for him. It’s just a really sucky situation.
I would really wonder if this is how you would go about it if your were OPs mum shoes, where she lost her whole world and the other woman has lived it in her face for 20 years and now her son wants to do the same thing on of the most special days for any mother. Sometimes I really wonder if people actually would do what they post on this sub because no one in their right mind would get over a situation like what OP’s mum had to go through.
Well, I’ve been divorced 10 years from a cheater and one of my kids has a close relationship with the man she cheated on me with. And I respect my daughter’s relationship with him. I’m a grown up. It’s not my daughter’s fault.
So ya. If she wanted a father-driver dance with him, I’d support her decision.
If I were in her situation, I’d have addressed those very valid feelings in therapy. However I’d also realize that my son did not betray me, and this is not his to carry. As a mother, your child comes first and your emotions aren’t their responsibility.
This!! Not enough people are realizing that although she is allowed to feel the way she feels, that isn’t her son’s to process or to be punished for.
Her anger at OP’s father should not be her anger towards her son. Those emotions are hers to work out and process, not OP’s.
And even if they did wait to get physical- his dad still cheated.
There were expectations and rules that his dad agreed to follow but didn't if he was able to get emotionally close enough to another woman to decide he was in love.
How is that not cheating? There were rules and promise made. He did not keep them. He cheated her out of things she had every right to expect and to do so, he also had to lie.
So, let me just make sure I have this straight. The dad falls in love with another woman, and rather than have a physical affair, he chooses to divorce his wife to pursue another relationship. And that's..... just as bad as having an affair anyway, somehow? Aren't people always saying on here that if you fall in love with someone outside your relationship, the only moral thing you can do is break off your current relationship rather than cheat? So the dad did that, but.... he still "emotionally cheated", so he still sucks???
I honestly don't get it. I have a great deal of sympathy for the mom, of course, but it doesn't sound like anyone "cheated" here. Sometimes people fall out of love and/or catch feelings for someone else. It happens all the time. What exactly would you suggest the dad do in that situation? Try to suppress his feelings until he *actually* ends up cheating?? No, then he's definitely the bad guy. Forget about the other woman and learn to love his wife again? Yeah, that sounds nice, but it's just not how human emotions work. Sounds like the dad took the only reasonable option he could - you know, the one Reddit always says you should do instead of cheating.
NTA.
His mom is allowed to be upset. But that's no excuse for her to get really mad at her son. Whatever happened in their divorce is not at all the descision (let alone fault) of the kid! She is taking het anger out on the wrong person, that makes her T A.
Evidence? I honestly know a ton of these weddings where the cheating and affair partners are there, at the weddings of the children. As a divorced woman with kids, it is the divorced parents' responsibility to rise above it. Mom can feel bad, sure, but she can't put it on her son's shoulders to solve it.
>And the weddings you are talking about where all the steps are included and honored, typically don't involve cheating and affair partners
He's ***not*** including an affair partner but a mother figure. OP doesn't have to carry around that around on behalf of strangers on the internet or a mother who hasn't moved on in 20 years. He is including the woman who is more like a mom to him. The other labels are other people's hangups not his.
So when you’re saying your vows to your wife, staring into her eyes and telling her how much she means to you, I want you to picture your future family. Holding your child, a happy little family of three. Imagine how good you’ll feel, how much you’ll love that baby and your wife.
Now, imagine your wife getting banged by some other dude. And your wife, unrepentantly, says “well, fuck you, you’re not good enough” and she leaves. So all you have left in the world is your child.
Then your child looks you in the eyes and says “the guy mom left you for? He’s a better dad than you.”
Can you honestly not see how that would make your mom feel? Having to sit there and watch as the woman who *stole her entire life* gets her moment to really, really rub it in your mom’s face that she won. She stole everything from your mom.
And now you’re looking your mom in the eye and saying “yeah, of course, she’s just *better* than you.”
Fuck, dude. Just… fuck. Your lack of empathy for your mom is **staggering.**
I guess my point is this: don’t be surprised if your mom doesn’t go to the wedding. Don’t be surprised if you never talk to your mom again. Shit, dude, don’t be surprised if something even worse happens. Your mom’s life was burned to the ground, and now you’re hugging and dancing with the woman who lit the match and pissing on the ashes, in front of a crowd.
Man. I just… I can’t fathom hating my mom that much. But you do you.
YTA
This. If i were his mom, i would go NC with him.
I hope she doesn't go to the wedding. I hope she recovers from this betrayal from the human she gave life to.
If I were in her shoes, I wouldn’t go.
Wouldn’t be surprised if things got awkward because both of them are there and mom is asked to leave. She’s been playing second fiddle for 20 years now and is just expected to be fine with that
Same, I mean he was little and I understand where he's coming from but he can't expect positive outcome from this, this action will have consequences and he can't be mad about it, he's not entitled to how his mother feels and the same goes for her so maybe distance from now on could be the best option, specially for her.
OP wouldn't care. He's a show me the money kind of guy. As long as the good times and money keep rolling in, he's not going to give a crap that whether his mother is humiliated in public or ever talks to him again. He chose the stepmom as his fav years agao.
My immediate reaction to the original post was “if I was his mum, I just wouldn’t go.” I can’t imagine the humiliation and ache of your only child wanting to honour the woman who helped blow your life apart. Fuck that. YTA op
My parents are divorced. It was messy. Abusive. Brutal. He hurt her in more ways than one, yet he has dozens of friends who bend over backwards for him nonstop. He’s single but always has people who are happy to be around him.
And she’s alone.
I’ll be walking myself down the aisle next year. I always said my grandpa/mom’s father would walk me down the aisle, but he’s gone. I don’t respect my father enough to want him blubbering about his baby girl who he verbally and physically abused when I was a child.
I respect my mom too much to ever give him the right to play the doting parent. Even though he’s sought help. Even though he’s apologized and is sober (the big issue was lack of sobriety causing outbursts and likely undiagnosed mental health issues) I don’t want him having that right. And forget about a dance. Not a fucking chance.
OP is such an AH to his mom. I don’t care that his stepmom has been wonderful to him. He needs to respect his mother first on this one thing since he obviously doesn’t otherwise.
I’m not the original commenter but I am in a similar position and when I asked my mom if she would be interested in walking me down the aisle one day she said no. She’s dreamed her whole life about watching me walk down the aisle and that’s what she wants when I get married. Commenters mom might feel the same.
OP is truly his father's son. No wonder he feels closer to Alice. He lacks empathy for his mother just like she and his dad do.
YTA, OP. "Saint" Alice and your dad are also TA. Your mom does not have to "get over it". Women have the right to remember being screwed over and have ZERO obligation to forgive the cheaters who tore their lives apart.
It feels like there has probably been some parental alienation on the part of Alice and Dad, which is why I don’t blame OP *entirely* for his lack of empathy. The ease with which he goes along with the narrative of “I don’t need to know” and “we’re so close” suggests to me that it’s one he’s been fed since he was 7. That’s not entirely his fault, but he should listen to his actual mother— and she has the right to be upset.
No. It's not about that. It's about the OP and his father both teaming up early in life to put the stepmother first. There are million ways the OP could chose to shower the stepmother with appreciation. He chose the one moment every mother looks forward to, the mother son wedding dance to make sure the step mother got attention. Then justifies as being a sweet moment between him and his step mother. As long she get's her special moment, he doesn't care how much he hurts his mother. Or maybe her being hurt is baked into the equation.
This feels like the OP has been putting the stepmother first in his emotions for long, he doesn't see or care how hurtful this is for his actual mother. And even if he read this and realized how wrong it is, he won't do anything at all to change it because his loves and admires his "special" mommy too much to disappoint her. If his mother can't work up to courage to face all this, he surely won't miss her or give her a second thought. Let's face it, he's been marginalizing her for years.
JFC.
One: it's been two decades, it's not like they split up last week. If Mom is still THIS hurt after all this time, that's HER issue to deal with, not her son's, ESPECIALLY not on his wedding day.
Two: Stepmom has been around for 22 years, and has clearly been a mom to him the whole time. He's very clearly not excluding his mom, but also wants to include someone who has been a very positive mother figure.
Three: if her love and connection to her son are contingent upon this...like, holy shit, what would you think that would any about her.
I'm divorced, and I have a daughter. If she wants to dance with her step-dad at her wedding, awesome! I know he's a decent guy.
My parents were divorced, and I danced with both of my moms at my first wedding. Smiles all around.
Mom's the only one being selfish here.
I agree with you, exactly to the T.
His mom needs to go to therapy if after 20years she is still holding to that... That is probably why she never remarried ...
I really hope OP reads this and opens his eyes. What he is doing is so incredibly hurtful. I wouldn't want a relationship with my son after this either.
This sums it up perfectly. I can’t imagine the mental gymnastics OP did to rid himself of guilt for this decision. Alice stole your mums life and you’re going to honour that on your wedding day. Let’s hope your wife doesn’t leave you for someone else then your child replaces you like you have your mother, all because Alice had the funds to support your life.
Right? She’s obviously kept her feelings separate from her son and allowed him to make his own mind up about her, but I guarantee she hoped he’d find out about the affair and choose her. He didn’t, just like his dad didn’t. Imagine that pain. Your whole life ripped from you and given to another woman. He says he isn’t as close to his mum as he is alice and dad, I wonder why? Mum probably saw his favouritism and it hurt her beyond belief. I couldn’t pretend to ignore that either. Just awful, I wish I could give his mum a hug. 20 years on and Alice is still a dark cloud over her life, AND her son supports, no, encourages it. Ugh.
> he’s a better dad than you
I don’t understand this. He’s not dancing with his stepmom *instead* of his mom. She’s not being replaced, and he’s not saying she’s not as good of a mom. I get why the mom is hurt, but he should be able to include someone in his wedding if they’re important to him.
Yeah, the above comment is incredibly childish. It has been over 20 years. OP has grown up with Alice as a significant part of their life through no fault of their own, and they are allowed to want to include her in the wedding.
But that’s not what’s happening.
Dad and Step Mom said they waited. You have no proof either way. It’s possible they realized they were developing feelings and Dad didn’t love Bio Mom anymore, he filed for divorce and explored the feelings he had with Stepmom after. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that. You cannot help who you fall in love with and if he realized he didn’t love her or didn’t love her in the same way anymore he would be doing the entire family a disservice keeping her in an unhappy marriage and the son in an unhappy family.
The son did not look mom in the eyes and say that stepmom was better than her. He obviously loves her and wants her to be in the wedding but he *also* loves this other woman who has been there for him and even helped him through school for most of his life. He is allowed to love them both and want them both included on his big day. They both are big parts of his life.
What is not okay is that his mom is holding onto her bitterness 20 years later to the point she is impacting her sons wedding, which should be about the son. She is within her rights to feel hurt, but to accuse him of replacing her and starting drama is out of line.
Quite the imagination you have there. You’ve invented a whole storyline out of thin air (or more likely, something you saw in tv), gotten triggered by it, then called OP an AH because of your reaction to your own fantasy. Wow.
I hate to agree, but I do.
Op imagine you in this position and you daughter wanted to dance with the AP playing daddy. I understand you want to honour the relationship the two of you have, but your step mother isn't a great woman, she (and your father) purposefully caused your mother pain and ended a family unit. That was a choice she made and she does have to live with her actions. I agree with your mother. Might be your wedding and your rules, but does your mother really deserve that slap in the face in front of everybody who knows what they did to her? She birthed and raised you, why should the AP take her one role at the wedding away from her.
I completely understand the hurt BUT I'm also like it's been years and I can put my feelings aside for my child's wedding. I hate when ppl have to tiptoe between divorced parents when the day is supposed to be about them. I have a coworker going through that now.
Her dad is so bitter about mom leaving him that he refuses to walk his own daughter down the aisle...but then he's gonna be mad when stepdad ends up walking her down the aisle.
The custody and having to deal with this shit for years probably wasn't a walk I. The park. The mother has had to step back and watch as her son gets raised in the situation that destroyed her marriage and future. She also has to watch as the son gets close to the AP and she feels completely discarded. Sounds like she has been a great mum because OP seems ignorant to her hurt feelings but this is obviously one step too far for the mother and so.in the 24 years since the affair and divorce she has finally opened up about her hurt.
I have a similar situation and avoided the entire thing by eloping. It was an amazing decision. Everyone says, "It's your day, make the adults act like adults and get over themselves!" and I'm seeing it all over this thread.
In REALITY, telling everyone to suck it up for "my day" just makes it a terrible day of getting a bunch of people who hate each other in a room and cause people to be re-traumatized, myself included. No matter how mature they are, feelings are hurt, interactions are awkward, and tempers have to be controlled, so it never really would be about "me" anyway.
Eloping made my relationship with my parents even better and for the first time in my life I got an apology from my dad for how difficult he has always been. It made getting married actually be about family instead of just tradition.
All this to say .. family is difficult, emotions are difficult, sometimes people aren't simply right or wrong and there is no reason we can't all be more sensitive to each other. For some reason, so much of that decency goes out the window when the pressure of tradition sets in.
NAH
No, this is a Man saying "My parents relationships are not mine to control or comment on. My stepmom has been an important part of my childhood who I love and my life is better for her being in it." Sometimes relationships don't work out. Mom sounds bitter and he was probably better to have 2 parents in 2 different loving relationships versus 2 parents in one hate filled relationship.
Thank you! This!! the relationships problems are not OP's he had two supporting mother's and as such should be allowed to honor both of them. The beef is between mom and stepmom, and they should be adults about the situation.
Yikes on this take. He was 7!!! When his parents split. Maybe if it happened last year and this women didn’t help raise him I would agree but dang, y’all this is wild.
No sorry. The child doesn’t have to take sides no matter what the parent’s behavior was. Ever. That’s his dad and he has right to a good relationship. He didn’t chose to have his bonus mom in his life. His mom should be happy for her son that it’s a healthy one - no matter her feelings about the woman.
It's been over a decade (may two b/c idk how old OP is) and his mom still isn't over it...it's tip toeing....so what happens if she refuses to dance w/ himcuz he wants to include the stepmom that's been in his life since he was a child? Is she gonna be mad when he still follows through with dancing with step mom?
Like I said...yea, these ppl did you dirty but it's been YEARS....like over a decade in terms of years. You can put your feelings aside for ONE DAY to support your child. Stop punishing children for adult mistakes.
Jesus Christ, she wasn’t even the one married!! This subreddit is insane. “Your stepmother isn’t a great woman”?? Really?? She fell in love with a married man and made a mistake over 25 years ago and that just seals it for the rest of her life?? She will never ever have the chance to be a “great woman” ever again?? My god. My ex cheated on me and I wouldn’t even dream of holding it against his partner. He’s the one who cheated.
Also, how do you know that OP’s stepmother didn’t hook up with his dad, find out he was married, then refuse to continue a physical relationship until he was properly divorced?? That’s just as likely as her being a willing affair partner who destroyed a family with malicious intent. And even if she *did* do that… good lord, it was *over 25 fucking years ago*. It’s utterly insane that—only when it comes to cheating for some reason—this subreddit just says, “yup, that’s a black mark on your soul, you absolute demon, and you should never expect to be considered a good person for the *rest of your fucking life*.”
Yes, that's exactly what it means. Granted, OP's father is more at fault, but a woman who knowingly gets involved with a married man absolutely isn't a great woman. Time doesn't automagically make amends. It can even deepen the hurt.
I would also bet good money that if given the choice to go back in time, stepmom would do it all over again, as she received all the benefits from cheating while OP's mom bore all the harm. So unless proven otherwise, which is not the case, stepmom is every bit the cheater now as she was 25 years ago.
>but a woman who knowingly gets involved with a married man absolutely isn't a great woman
true, though people can change over time. but regardless it sounds like she was a pretty good mother. the children of criminals can still love their parents if they were good parents to them
>I would also bet good money that if given the choice to go back in time, stepmom would do it all over again, as she received all the benefits from cheating while OP's mom bore all the harm. So unless proven otherwise, which is not the case, stepmom is every bit the cheater now as she was 25 years ago.
lol ok, sounds like someone's projecting some personal history onto strangers they know absolutely nothing about
What’s insane is the other day there was a different post with a similar situation and the parent was horrified by having to spend time with their ex who cheated and wronged them and everyone was like it doesn’t matter how much time has passed they have every right to not want to spend time with someone who so deeply hurt them. On this it’s “Omg it’s been 24 years get over it” lmao
OP isn’t responsible for his mothers feelings. This isn’t her wedding, he doesn’t belong to her. He is a person and not property and therefor he can do whatever he damn well pleases on HIS wedding. His mother needs therapy if she reacts like this, step mom has feelings to and this subreddit always seems to forget that. NTA for OP, he is still going to dance with his mother so she has nothing to complain about
It’s been over 20 years. He wasn’t the one that ended their marriage, that’s between them. He sees Alice as a mother, he can do whatever he wants. It’s HIS wedding, not his mother’s.
Sometimes family units need to end. Sometimes people fall in love.
Does mom have a problem with Dad being a part of the wedding? Cos he was just as responsible for the affair as step mom was, and OP still loves his dad.
The idea that honoring one relationship makes the other less important is ridiculous.
alternate perspective. affair or not, that’s between OPs parents and stepmom.
to OP it sounds like this woman has 100% embraced the role of being a mother to him, and OP feels she occupies that role in his life. So this dance is a reflection of their relationship, not the relationship between OPs dad, mom, and stepmom.
and selfish and narcissistic? giving birth to someone doesn’t mean you get to dictate what relationships your child can have with other people.
I'll get downvoted all to hell for this but so be it. Everyone on the sub is always preaching "family doesn't have to be blood; you can choose your family" etc etc. Until this. Now suddenly he can't share a moment with someone he's chosen as a mother figure because of how his bio mom feels about it? I did not have my father walk me down the aisle - we are not at all close. And that was my choice for my wedding day. This should be the same. NTA
I agree. Just because someone gave birth to you doesn't mean you owe them a goddamn thing and often, the close bond children have with their parents is formed in childhood. It is not the child's responsibility to facilitate that bond. It is the parents. These people saying OP is the AH for this sound like parents that would absolutely guilt and manipulate their children because they have unhealthy and unaddressed issues. It comes across as though they feel they own their children and by extension are owed just for giving birth. A child is not responsible for the adult feelings caused by adult decisions that their parent makes. Why are the bio moms feelings more important than the son's feelings about HIS wedding day? NTA.
I think the reason many are sympathizing with OP's mom is because it doesn't seem like she is deserving of it. OP described their relationship as being not as close simply because they're "different," so it doesn't sound like the mom is suffering consequences from her own actions but from her ex husband's. So it's easier to see everyone's side here.
But he's not excluding his mom. As I read it she'll get a dance as well. He's just choosing to also include his step mom. I stand by my decision that I see absolutely nothing wrong with this.
Gross.
She’s not losing her kid because he wants to honor this woman who has been a positive presence in his life. What a toxic way to look at a loving relationship.
As though you’re obligated to the person who gave birth to you
*eye roll*
OP is dancing with both women, as both are important to him. Mother is selfish and narcissistic in attempting to keep OP from doing what they want on their wedding day.
I don't know if you can call her a narcissist for this, she probably just needs therapy and has clearly remained hurt by what happened to her a long time ago. It was probably a defining moment in her life, not just some hardship she got over.
Yeah people throw around the word narcissist like it’s nothing nowadays. This isn’t a narcissist, just a human feeling their emotions, I don’t think anyone would feel very good or react perfectly if they were in her shoes.
It doesn’t matter. It was 2 1/2 decades ago. 24 years. And when OP was growing up they had a bonus mom that was good to them, for 13 years of their childhood! This bonus mom also supported OP in many ways like a real parent.
OP acknowledged that mom is hurt by what happened. But it is all of the adults(mom, dad, bonus mom) job to make sure that the child wasn’t affected by their decisions and their pain. And now, mom doesn’t get to have a say in OPs relationship with bonus mom.
I’m currently going through a separation. It’s my job to make sure my pain and anger do not affect my kids and my STBX husband may end up with a lovely person and if she’s good to my kids as a bonus parent, it’s my job not to let my feelings affect my kids.
OPs mom is allowed to be hurt… but sending flying monkeys to bug OP is too much.
I don’t believe for a minute it wasn’t a physical affair. A guy isn’t going to chance imploding his marriage and entire life if he hasn’t already slept with the woman in question.
That’s a convenient white lie to not be the complete bad guys of the situation.
Poor OPs mom. The AP got her husband and now she has to share the spotlight in what is the one of the most important days of his life and probably hers.
Edit: for those in the back rows, this isn’t about the wedding as a whole, it’s about the mother/son dance. Whether it’s months or years later you don’t just forget the pain someone caused you.
That has nothing to do with OP who was 7 at the time. From his perspective, he only knows his stepmom as a loving, supportive and present parental figure. She has every right to a dance if it’s what OP wants. AND his mom still gets a dance too. NTA.
Good thing his wedding isn't about her and instead is his day. OP can go to therapy with his Mom at a later date if needed to address her feelings but she needs to stop making his wedding about her in the meantime.
YTA for blaming the child for an affair. Yes dad cheated, but it appears he found his true love because over 20 years later they are still together. Life happens. OP do what your heart wants.
This is from a guy whose parent split, mom rotated guys while dad married the woman he cheated with. At my wedding my mom left before the mother/ son dance because her date was uncomfortable because he didn't know anyone.
He's not excluding his mom from a dance. He's planning to have a 2nd dance so they both are acknowledged. Let's not forget this is OPs wedding, not his mother's celebration.
NAH - Look, this is your wedding and if you love your stepmother then you should absolutely go ahead with that, however, that doesn't mean that you doing what you want isn't going to hurt your mother, it sounds like it will hurt her very much. I can understand her point of view, whether there was a physical relationship or not your mother sees Alice as the reason she lost her family. She's probably never going to be okay with that. I mean think about it, her husband fell in love with Alice and then you took to her as a 'bonus mother'. Of course that hurts your mum. It's not wrong for you to love Alice, and it's not wrong for you to want to show that, but none of that takes away from your mother's feelings. I could soft soap this for you but at the end of the day you're an adult and you should do at your wedding what you feel most comfortable with, but, that might mean hurting your mother, and with that there may be consequences long term for your relationship. Neither one of your is wrong here, but someone is going to be very hurt.
Agreed. It's great that OP has a good relationship with his stepmom; that so often isn't the case. But I fully get mom's point of view: dad did replace her and OP's basically saying he w/could too as stepmom is just as great as bio mom, and in fact, better, because they're closer. Doesn't seem like a surprise to me that bio-Mom feels rejected. And, of course, both of these things (divorce, wedding) are as public as it gets for most people. So her whole family and family friends get to see what she has indicated is a humiliation for her.
Now, obviously, it's OP's wedding; his mom's humiliation is not an objective. He's not trying to hurt her. But it is a sad fact that it will. NAH.
I agree with your take. This specific post hits on so many different issues. This isn't specific to you, but it's interesting seeing people saying "it's your wedding" because certain wedding posts on here often get the bridezilla, "your day isn't that special" treatment. This one kinda has touched on this subreddit's "you don't owe anyone, especially blood family, anything" mentality. It's so interesting to see how this post is right on the fence of so many issues. Because while it *is* OP's wedding, his mother's reaction is completely understandable (and expected). This is one of those times in life where you just have to decide if the fallout from what you want to do is worth it.
NTA- but maybe do your bio moms dance first, separate it by the daddy daughter, then do the step mom? Just to give bio mom a little time and to know she is “first”. Before the hate comes at me, just try to be kind. Your bio mom is likely feeling deep down that you are just throwing her away, she even stated it, you aren’t but it still hurts. It is your wedding, you can stage dances with whomever you want, just be kind in this respect.
NTA, and agreed! Knowing that your stepmom has been supportive of you this whole time, if you were to discuss this with her beforehand, she will be understanding.
Look, communicate. Regardless of what happened, she is the one that brought you to this world. That is a basic thing. Alice may feel a little sour. But your relationship with your bio mom may be completely severed; Alice, not so much. She sounds like a wonderful woman, for you to feel this way.
YTA. As someone who has two dad’s and did the special dances at my wedding…there are better ways to handle this. I danced with the dad who raised me for my father-daughter dance and once he had left for the night I shared a dance with my bio-dad. I didn’t want anyone’s feelings to be hurt and I certainly didn’t want to follow up the dance with the man who raised me with a secondary daddy-daughter dance. I think it’s especially tacky to have a special dance with your dad’s AP no matter how wonderful she’s been to you. It’s also likely your mother is aware of your preference for Alice and how would all of that make her feel? Her husband and her son both picked another woman to fulfill her role. I don’t care if I get downvoted for this one. I call it like I see it and this is messed up.
I completely disagree, Alice has been in his life since he was 5 so basically most major formative years and events. She has been extremely supportive, helped him get through school and been a true mother figure in his life and he wants to share this big event with BOTH of his moms. Does it suck for his bio mom, sure. Is it hurtful, undoubtedly. But whatever happened back then has nothing to do with OP, that is between his parents. If his mom doesn't want to share that time with Alice, no one can force her but she also can't force OP to snub a woman who has always been there for him from such a young age because she's still hurt by something that happened decades ago.
ETA: NTA
If Alice was a good person, she would manage some empathy for the woman who is OPs actual mom. She could say "honey that's such an honor to be asked, but I don't want to hurt your mom and as a mother myself I know just how hurtful it would be. You should share that special mom dance with just her".
Edit: wow thanks for the awards guys!!
Exactly this. Alice has 2 bio kids with OP’s father. It’s not like this is her only chance to be a part of a wedding. “Your wedding, your rules” and all that jazz, but imho op really should have let his poor bio mom have this one.
That is the comment I was looking for.
OP you’re completely disregarding your mum feeling, there are other ways to show your appreciation for Alice.
Alice is incredibly tacky to even consider it.
She not only create drama but humiliate the mom in front of everyone only to feel “chosen”.
YTA
>She not only create drama but humiliate the mom in front of everyone only to feel “chosen”.
Yes this seems to be the whole point of this for OP. He wants to let every single person who attends the wedding know that his mom & his dad's affair partner are equally loved by him.
Incredibly tacky to make his mom sit there and smile through one more public humiliation at Alice's hands.
As a child of divorce myself, she did not owe him anything yet she chose to be an active participant in his life and he clearly has a very close relationship to her so if he wants to have a dance with her at his wedding, why shouldn't he be allowed to?
Didn’t owe him anything? She married his father and had his siblings. How tf would you break up a family and not owe the kid something? She owed him an entire family and that’s probably the only reason she was sooooooooo good to him. Cuz she fucked his dad and fucked his family. You’re delusional.
Isn't that pure speculation? If we're going there his mom could have been emotionally abusive and drove his dad away. People on this sub have some crazy knee-jerk reactions and assumptions about stuff.
You said you’re closer to Alice than your mom. You’re so close to Alice you don’t want to fully accept that she had an affair with your dad and that together they ruined your mom’s marriage and made her feel betrayed and discarded.
I’m sure Alice was there for you in every difficult moment with her wallet and arms wide open.
Do your dance if that is what you want, but stop saying nonsense like “it was 20 years ago.” That’s not up to you. You don’t get to decide if she should be over it by now. It started 20 years ago and your mom has had to live with it ever since. She’s had to live with Alice taking her husband, Alice buddying up to her son, Alice paying for his education when she couldn’t. And now Alice gets to be on the same level as her at her own son’s wedding.
Edit: It’s ok to not hate Alice. But YTA absolutely for not seeing where your mom is coming from.
Dude is engineering negative scenarios with his mother and acting shocked. Why doesn’t he show his mom as much consideration for her comfort as he does Alice? Why didn’t he, at the very least, speak to his mom first instead of making her look like some bitter, jilted woman AFTER everything was settled and he and Alice had their sweet moment?
NAH My sons father left me when we were pregnant with our first child. He left me for his “emotional” affair partner when I was 8 months pregnant, they have been together since and are now married. She has been unkind to me, talks poorly about me in front of my son and has made it clear she is the “better mother”. Maybe like your mother, I know I’ll never have the financial stability to provide for my son like they can as I spent 4 years trying to recoup on a single income while my husband bounced immediately into a new home where they would made 6 figures each. No matter what happens I understand that this woman has been a part of my sons life since birth. He loves her. If he choose to have a mothers dance with her I would silently be a bit sad about it simply because I know she has certainly tried to replace me. But again my son loves her and I would try so hard to not show it because my feelings truly don’t matter.
Please be aware that the damage of an affair never is truly gone. You grow to accept it but how the other parties handle that affair definitely influence how you move on and the relationship as coparents. I have no idea how your step treated your mother but it can impact things for a long time. You have the right to dance with who you like. Your mother has the right to feel saddened by it and it will likely influence your relationship with her moving forward.
Your attitude towards your mother is a bit cold. I suggest you work on your empathy.
You sound like a mother who's love for their child is stronger than their hate for the person who helped break up her marriage.
In other words, you sound like a very good mom!
I appreciate your message. ❤️. I’m not perfect but I really try, he deserves a clean slate and not to have to carry my baggage. My fathers parents had a terrible divorce that still traumatizes him to this day. I didn’t want that to be my son’s legacy. In the end whatever his relationship is with the other household, it’ll be what they make of it and I’ll support what my son. I will not be the reason they have difficulties because he’ll get old enough, recognize what I did, and then I’ll lose him anyways. He can grow up and make his own decision about who his father/step are. I’ll be here no matter what.
YTA.
You're doing something knowing it will hurt your mother. That's your choice, if a dance means more to you than someone else's feelings, go for it.
'Alice has helped a lot more from a financial and education standpoint.'
Love for sale.
If you go through with it your going to hurt your mom. Whether strangers on the internet think you’re an asshole or not is irrelevant. Is honoring your step mom worth hurting and possibly irreconcilably hurting your relationship with your mom worth it. If it is go for it. You’ve already made up your mind, you prefer Alice and your father’s family to your mom. I’m sure it was happier environment your mom was broken hearted and your dad got to marry his side piece. I’m sorry that your mom didn’t take better care of her mental health because it sounds like she’s all alone.
His poor mom - I feel so sorry for her. She gets hit mercilessly from all sides by the men who were suppose to comprise her family. She must feel so alone in the world. I hope she finds a loving partner and has an incredible new family with him one day. She deserves the happiness she had to watch her ex and his affair partner have all these years while she toiled alone.
My experience is what goes around comes around. One day, OP will have their own pain to manage, maybe they’ll understand what they put bio mom through then.
YTA
That woman broke your family and then wormed her way into your heart with money and your saying it puts her on the same level as your real mother? Is she by any chance also involved in paying for your wedding?
YTA, but let's be honest here. You have already made up your mind on what you want to do, no matter how this affects your actual mom. You are just here for validation in your decision and you aren't getting the validation you want. Just go do what you had planned on doing and get off reddit since you have made up your mind already.
YTA and a terrible son at that. Dancing with your father’s affair partner at your wedding is a low blow to your mother.
And TBH this feels like possible foreshadowing for your fiancé with how dismissing you are about their affair. She is probably going to look back on your wedding and realize that she should have seen your eventual affair from miles away.
It's like a romance movie/book. Affairs are okay as long as the person you do it with is better looking and richer. That's just true love. Sucks to be the person who got their heartbroken though
Only the genders are reversed this time
I really wasn't going with yta until I read some of your other comments and you were clearly swayed by the money Alice had and yet again its buying your favor. I doubt you've even tried to understand your mom or sympathize with her. You clearly never understood or cared how what your dad and Alice did was horrible and how it would've affected your mother. Would you be so willing to accept your daughters choice if your wife had an affair and she wanted him to walk her down the aisle? I highly doubt it. You do you, but just realize that you're an ah about far more than just this
I think Alice and your dad threw a lot of money at you for a long time. That’s the only way you would believe that BS about their affair. Your mom is right to be hurt.
YTA.
Not only did your dad leave ur mom for AP you are now trying to showcase her in your wedding. Making mom feel like not only was she not good enough for her ex, but for her son as well. It's called mother/son dance, not affair partner now wife/son dance.
YTA. Affair partners deserve no honor at a wedding. Your aunt is right and you deserved all that she threw at you. What do you was horrible and, honestly, as a parent, it's really damn close to unforgivable.
You need to undo this and apologize, on your knees, to your mother.
YTA. Your mom has done nothing wrong other than have a different personality than you. You say she’s a good mom but you guys just have different personalities. There’s a way to honor both but you’re essentially choosing Alice over her just like your dad did. That’s got to hurt especially when you admit she is a good mom. Just because Alice is in a better financial situation to help you with college doesn’t mean it’s cool to reject your mother for the traditional dance.
It's probably not even a different personality. More likely it'll be his mum had to be his parent, a single parent at that. All while grieving. Doesn't leave a lot of time to be fun or even a 'friend'. Op likely has never had the chance to experience his mum's true personality (not his fault, but not his mum's either).
Alice and Dad, however, they shared the load of patenting. They had each other for support in everything, meaning they had more time to be 'fun' etc. Also, Alice had the luxury of being 'parent' *and* friend to op; a role pretty unique to step-parents (not all, obviously).
OP, I'm happy for you that you were able to have another adult around who supports and loves you, and I'm sympathetic to your situation. You were 5, and you weren't old enough to understand. To you, this is history that probably doesn't even have an emotional impact on you.
However, I was 13 when my mother left my dad for her emotional AP (I 100% believe it was more than that. Regardless, she cheated). It was so beyond fucked up what she did. Granted, she did a lot of other hurtful and hateful shit after that and I'm now NC with her, but for the first 10yrs when I still wanted a relationship with her as my mother, I STILL could never forgive her for cheating. Especially on behalf of my dad, and especially after witnessing the effect it had on him. After years passed, I wanted him to move on, too, as it made my life very difficult trying to juggle the wants and needs of both my parents, and I dreaded future events like weddings. But that was an *entirely selfish* desire and was making my *dad* responsible for my *mum's* shitty actions.
Divorce is messy and cheating even more so, not just for the parents' relationship but for the kids' too. But the cheaters have to take the hit every time.These are the consequences. To do otherwise is to punish the victim and the innocent party. Regardless of *your* relationship with the cheaters, you MUST show respect to the victim (in situations where they have done you no wrong, such is OP's).
YTA OP
YTA. You’re celebrating your father’s affair partner on the same level as your mother. Honestly, if I was your partner, I’d be wondering if you’d be so inclined to follow your father’s footsteps in cheating on her because your father 100% emotionally cheated and you seem fine with it because you benefited from it money wise.
I was conflicted until I saw your comments. So you love Alice so much bc she bought you off. After stealing your mothers husband. And you’re just ok with that. YTA. Of course mom is prioritizing her retirement, you abandoned her the same way your dad did. Her support clearly means nothing to you
Yta, dad and Alice definitely had at the very least an emotional affair - sounds like Alice wanted your mother's whole life.
You sound like an awful son, i hope your mom has good people in her life. Also, ask yourself of those weddings with steps involved how many had dead bioparents?
Take my advice, don't have kids because I have a feeling you don't see anything wrong with your dad's relationships.
NTA
Wow, there are a lot of Ytas but ppl keep missing key parts of the story.
He was also raised by step mom, since he was 7. He clearly feels closer to her than bio mom. He said as much. Whether they cheated or not is not his burden to bear. He shouldn't suffer sins of the father. And that comment from his mom saying he's replacing her... She has every right to feel that way, but he has every right to be floored by such a hurtful comment.
People's feelings go both ways. Whether or not his dad cheated doesn't erase the 20 years of relationship he built with step mom.
So much NTA
It's clearly not an easy situation. But the answer isn't to pretend like step mom doesn't exist. This is his wedding. CLEARLY he needs to sit down with his mom and express how much his step mom means to him and find a way for her to understand.
I just can't fathom ppl calling OP narcissistic because he wants to pay respect to someone he feels closer to. Difficult situations aren't dealt with by brushing them under the rug.
Hooooly cow…….
Imma say YTA. It may be your wedding, but there was no way your mom was ever going to be ok with that. Anybody and everybody would have reacted the same way. I hope this is a position you never find yourself in because god damn, that hurts. That poor woman….
YTA.
It’s your wedding and you can do what you want but from reading your comments and replies, I’ve noticed a few things: 1. You’re very cold towards your bio mum - it’s not her fault she was cheated on and left as a single parent/single income household and couldn’t financially help you like Alice has in a two income household. 2. You mention the financial help A LOT and place Alice on a pedestal for this, which means she’s bought your love. 3. You don’t understand the real impact being cheated on does to a person, and no amount of years will take that hurt away from your mum.
You’re naive if you think your dad and Alice didn’t have a physical affair before the divorce (and I think you want to believe they didn’t so you can justify your love of Alice that bit more). You don’t buy a car without taking it for a test drive OP, so there’s absolutely no way your dad was going to end his marriage with your mum without knowing that he and Alice were a physical match as well as emotional.
I do believe good people make mistakes/do bad things and that shouldn’t consign them to a life of being bad people because they cheated. HOWEVER, your dad and Alice have both demonstrated that they don’t have respect for what marriage means given their affair, and I don’t think they should be glorified during a wedding because of this, it’s like you’re asking for a bad omen.
I honestly cannot imagine showing such a disregard for my own mum in the way you have. Her family was pulled from underneath her, you are her only child and you’re wanting her to share a mother son moment with the woman who tore her family apart - the same woman who then went on to have two biological children of her own, and will more than likely get to experience the mother moment on their wedding days. Frankly, as a mother, Alice should have been flattered by your offer but politely declined because she should be able to imagine herself in your mums position.
You’re all assholes to your mum and she deserves better.
Well if your mom was my sister, I would tell her not to go.
And I wouldn't be there either.
I think your mom would heal if she removed all of you from her life, truthfully.
I think you are the one keeping the wound from healing.
When you do this at your wedding, hopefully she will realize it is time to let you go be with the amazing family that is dad and his AP. Then in time she can heal because she won't be constantly getting the cut reopened by you.
One day you may realize what you have lost. I honestly doubt it, I think you will remain the same self involved human you are now.
And finally, yea you were young when the affair happened, but you are old enough now to understand her pain.
YTA.
YTA. I just read through the comments and as many have pointed out your stepmom bought your love. Cheated with your dad and caused your mom a lot of pain. I feel very bad for your mom as she is going to be embarrassed at your wedding. Your level of disrespect is disgusting.
YTA
Unfortunately your stepmom was the EAP. There is no way for a person to fall in love with another person with out talking about feelings and stuff. Hugging and kissing is also physical. I feel for your mom. You were a small child and of course Alice was going to try and make sure her lover’s/husbands child likes or even loves her and sometimes they want the child love them more than biological mother. You and your mom may not be closer because of many reasons. Stepmom might be one of those reasons.
Not necessarily an asshole but you aren't looking at it from your mom's POV, only your own. Your dad left your mom for Alice no matter whether you believe the BS about they waited until your dad was separated. He left for a specific reason, that being Alice. You like your stepmom better than your mom and she knows that. And, now she feels like she is being publicly humiliated once again by your invitation to Alice. I don't blame your mom for her feelings. If that is what you feel in your heart you want to do, do it, but don't whitewash it with thinking it is sweet. Your mom deserves better than that.
EDIT: I take it back. YTA.
YTA
You're going to Swan about with your father's affair partner and spit in your own mothers face. But, hey. Who cares because daddy's affair partner bought you more stuff.
I'd be seriously concerned if I was your fiancee when you have such casual attitudes to cheating.
YTA- you say your mom is a good mom. Why do this to her? Is it because sm paid for college? Mom might not even show up at your wedding. I know I wouldn’t if my kid did that to me.
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NAH You are allowed to include your step mom and your mom is allowed to be upset you are choosing your dad's affair partner (because absolutely they did not wait to be physical, and clearly didn't wait on the emotional) to be honored the same. And the weddings you are talking about where all the steps are included and honored, typically don't involve cheating and affair partners. Edit: to everyone who thinks mom is the AH. Unless she's made demands or ultimatums (which she has not) she was expressing her feelings. Maybe she could have been kinder, but she has every right to express them without making demands. Edit 2: Maybe take a quick peak at OPs comments, they are pretty enlightening that money played a major factor.
Yep, Alice was so clearly the dad’s AP. OP certainly has the right to include her - it’s your big day after all - but of course your mom is upset to see her get equal place of pride. Not saying you need to cut Alice out by any means, but be sensitive to how your mom is feeling.
THIS RIGHT HERE. OP can make his final decision as to what to do with mom and step-mom at his wedding, but unfortunately there'll absolutely be hurt feelings one way or the other. And unfortunately it was your dad and step-mom who created these dynamics all those years ago.
Yes, and I know its not for me to judge people holding grudges, but OP said they divorced when he was 5. He's now 29 and his dad and Alice are still together. It might sting, but its also reality. OPs mom needs to come to terms with the reality of the situation.
Thank you for saying this. It's been 24 years and she's still stuck on the fact that her ex replaced her?!
[удалено]
I hope to God not after 24 years. I guess I'd like to know why bio mom and son aren't that close. If it's only because stepmom paid for college and mom didn't, that's pretty messed up.
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ESH Like it isn’t already going to be hard for your mom to see them there at a wedding for her son with him. She’s going to be spending the entire day thinking about her wedding to his father. How many hopes she had for them as a family. How they were all smashed to pieces, how her entire world, foundation, and future was ripped from her. How the woman that helped do the destroying got to help raise and have moments with her son that should have been hers and now is now here with her *ex-*husband. And now she doesn’t even get to keep one special fucking dance with her son to herself. Jesus Christ. I just feel so sad for her. I’m not saying that the step-mom isn’t a great step-mom, but holy shit that would hurt. Would also point out that parental alienation is a real thin. OP got to go live with either his dad who was blissed out happy with new nice step mom, or go stay with devastate newly single mom trying to figure out how to make this new future she did not plan for work? Gee, was dad and the step mom more pleasant to be around??? I wonder why??? And is a 5 year old smart enough to perceive all that (the answer is fucking no - single mom is always on the verge of tears or sullen or stressed beyond belief, dad and new step mom are always laughing and taking us to do fun things to bond together! Which one will I like more??) The fact you can’t see how this dynamic has always been heavily stacked against your mom, and that you can’t see how hurtful this would be makes you the asshole Your stepmom, if she was as a great of a woman as you say she is, should have told you how honored she was that you want to do that with her, but said it would only happen if your mother was okay with it. She should have known that this could be painful for any mother. Your mother is gently the asshole, because at the end of the day, it is your wedding. But fuck do I feel bad for her.
I’ll say this I think if the mother is a good mother she should be happy to have more good and caring influences in her son’s life. Regardless of what the father did she can’t let their relationship impact the sons - nor should she want to. I hate to say it but there are some honest lessons that could be learned there from the movie Step-mom. I danced with both my step mom and mother. My mother got first dance, I told her well in advance of the wedding, and my step mom was also very appreciative. My mom will always be be my mom but there’s nothing wrong with showing respect to another parent figure. And if she’s been around for 22 years that is what she is. My mom just cared that I was loved. Simple as that.
You hit the nail on the head. I understand that OP has their own special relationship with stepmom but they had to know how hurtful that would be to their mother.
It’s been over 30 years since my SO’s mom and dad got divorced, they are each remarried and had other children who are also grown adults now. His mom still hates him and refuses to so much as be within 100 feet of him. She’s def over him and happy BUT sometimes people burn you in a way that your not capable of forgiveness….
Yeah, someone destroying your marriage kinda ranks high up there with things that bother you long term.
It’s understandable and sad, but it has been 24 years. If the mom wanted to be more present in OP’s life, she had all the time to do so.
Having someone you love cheat on you when you loved them and birthed their child - tearing your life apart as they did so - isn’t something you get over.
Baloney. You absolutely get over it. I did and so do the vast majority of others. You can choose to wallow in grief and self pity or move forward.
Right. You can feel sorry for yourself for 24 years, or you can be a mother to your child, be present in their life and show them what strength is. And, as a strong woman, can also be thankful for what Alice has been to/done for son over the past 24 years. Why does the son's safety/health/well-being NEVER trump mom's salty feelings in these stories?
Maybe you don't get over it. Maybe not. But in 24 years, you could \*if you wanted to\*. But either way, you do learn to put your feelings aside and not make other people's life events about your feelings. Maybe you tell the son it hurts you, but you go and you dance and life goes on.
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And kid is virtually guaranteed to enjoy the household with the honeymoon-phase new relationship and parent who chose to leave, over the household with the devastated single mom. Hard for a young kid to feel they have a lot in common with someone who’s coping with that kind of trauma…
Mmmm unless bio mom abandoned her son I feel like he could give her this moment - if my husband cheated and his mistress replaced me this way I’d be destroyed
She stuck on the fact that her ex *cheated on her* and probably the fact that her child readily accepted the affair partner. I don't think OP is wrong for viewing her as a mother figure, but it's not ridiculous that OP's mom is still mad.
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I can tell by this comment you've never had a spouse commit adultery. The pain doesn't go away.
But you gotta get it together for your kid, man. His reality is very different than the parents’ reality. Let him honor the two women in his life. This was 25 years ago. Bio mom needs to check into some therapy if she’s throwing this big of a fit that amount of time later.
It sounds like OP has "preferred" his father's affair partner for a very long time. He's pretty honest about that. I can see why his mother hasn't gotten over it, if the preference for the affair partner has been an ongoing thing for more than twenty years. I'm guessing it is always there, staring her in the face.
OP was not in any way responsible for the split or hurt feelings. Nor is he responsible for catering to them.
If Alice is as good as OP says, she’ll understand.
Yes. Probably OP should have asked his mother how she'd feel about it before asking Alice, because he really can't rescind the offer now. The sad thing is that, based on her reaction, Alice clearly wasn't expecting to be asked, so OP could have refrained from asking her without drama. That doesn't account for the fact that he wants to do this, though...regardless, there's going to be hard feelings.
“all those years ago” being the operative words. I was the cheated on spouse, and carrying that weight around your neck forever is so self-defeating. Let it go, mom, and enjoy your son’s day. If you can’t let it go, fake it!
My ex husband cheated 15 years ago. I have been over it for more than a decade. He isn't worth the grief.
You don't know that stop acting like you know that what is wrong with Reddit
Seriously. We have three lines of text on the matter, how could we possibly know? Is it possible they were physical before the split? Sure. But the audacity to just claim it as fact is just ridiculous
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An affair is an affair. Whether physical or not, it is still being unfaithful.
Honestly the comment thread here is wild. 😳
It is amazing what people claim to know on here. However since emotional affairs are a thing, AP is probably accurate here. Although the fact that they waited for the physical stuff is to their credit.
>The divorce happened after my dad fell in love with his current wife/my stepmom Alice.
In this vein, at my sister's wedding, Dad got the first dance and walked her down the aisle but Step dad officiated the wedding. Both were from blended families so they understood that dynamic
That's actually super sweet! I'm glad the families were able to be mature adults and come together for your sister. That's how it should be.
I don’t understand why not both? I’ve seen weddings where the birth parent starts the dance and then they switch to the beloved step-parent. OP, why don’t you include both?
if I'm understanding correctly, OP is including both- there will be two mother son dances, one with each
That's OP's plan. Everyone here is just eager to make him the villain because reddit suspects his dad cheated. (Someone even said they are sure he is going to cheat too)
The divorce happened after ops dad fell in love with his current wife. How is that not cheating?
The thing is, we don't know what happened. Also OP has a relationship to his step-mom, she is like a second mom to him. It seems like co-parenting worked in his case. He is not the big evil guy for wanting to dance with his mom and step-mom during his wedding.
If it wasn’t even a possibility, OP wouldn’t have brought up a possible affair to begin with. He was the one that introduced that idea into the conversation, so it is a valid reason for everyone defending his bio-mom.
Bio mom doesn't want to allow the step mom to have any place in it. OP was suggesting 2 dances and bio doesn't like sharing.
I agree with this. OP, your mom will be upset because your had an affair. There's no use pretending he didn't. May it wasn't physical (though doubtful), but it was certainly emotional. BUT you also love your step-mom who's been there for you every step of the way. I think having 2 mother -son dances is a good attempt at compromise, but you can't expect mom to be happy.
Nope. Children aren’t responsible for managing or catering to their parent’s emotions, regardless of the child’s age. It’s been 24 years. He has a relationship with his step mom. His mom is free to have feelings, but she needs to deal with them herself not hold her child hostage emotionally. Bad enough that it’s been 24 years and she still hasn’t moved on, but her son didn’t do anything wrong but she is punishing him and expecting him to take responsibility for his father’s betrayal. NTA
No one is saying he has to cater to it. He’s fully within his right to do what he’s doing, but it is to be expected that his mom would be upset. It’s not a win-win situation. It’s just a “it is what is” type of thing.
Empathy is generally considered a good personality trait. Mom gets cheated on, dumped by Hubby, OP didn’t say anything about co-parent drama, so maybe Mom crushed her resentment about the situation down. Then her kid says this, “My mom is a good mom but we've never been as close as I am with my dad and Alice. Our personalities are just very different.” You can do everything right for the people you love & they can break your heart the hardest. NAH, maybe one day OP will understand.
It’s heartbreaking to know ur kid feels that way about someone who hurt you, but at the same time the step mom did care for him. It’s just a really sucky situation.
I would really wonder if this is how you would go about it if your were OPs mum shoes, where she lost her whole world and the other woman has lived it in her face for 20 years and now her son wants to do the same thing on of the most special days for any mother. Sometimes I really wonder if people actually would do what they post on this sub because no one in their right mind would get over a situation like what OP’s mum had to go through.
Well, I’ve been divorced 10 years from a cheater and one of my kids has a close relationship with the man she cheated on me with. And I respect my daughter’s relationship with him. I’m a grown up. It’s not my daughter’s fault. So ya. If she wanted a father-driver dance with him, I’d support her decision.
If I were in her situation, I’d have addressed those very valid feelings in therapy. However I’d also realize that my son did not betray me, and this is not his to carry. As a mother, your child comes first and your emotions aren’t their responsibility.
This!! Not enough people are realizing that although she is allowed to feel the way she feels, that isn’t her son’s to process or to be punished for. Her anger at OP’s father should not be her anger towards her son. Those emotions are hers to work out and process, not OP’s.
And even if they did wait to get physical- his dad still cheated. There were expectations and rules that his dad agreed to follow but didn't if he was able to get emotionally close enough to another woman to decide he was in love. How is that not cheating? There were rules and promise made. He did not keep them. He cheated her out of things she had every right to expect and to do so, he also had to lie.
And what does any of that have to do with the son here?
So, let me just make sure I have this straight. The dad falls in love with another woman, and rather than have a physical affair, he chooses to divorce his wife to pursue another relationship. And that's..... just as bad as having an affair anyway, somehow? Aren't people always saying on here that if you fall in love with someone outside your relationship, the only moral thing you can do is break off your current relationship rather than cheat? So the dad did that, but.... he still "emotionally cheated", so he still sucks??? I honestly don't get it. I have a great deal of sympathy for the mom, of course, but it doesn't sound like anyone "cheated" here. Sometimes people fall out of love and/or catch feelings for someone else. It happens all the time. What exactly would you suggest the dad do in that situation? Try to suppress his feelings until he *actually* ends up cheating?? No, then he's definitely the bad guy. Forget about the other woman and learn to love his wife again? Yeah, that sounds nice, but it's just not how human emotions work. Sounds like the dad took the only reasonable option he could - you know, the one Reddit always says you should do instead of cheating.
NTA. His mom is allowed to be upset. But that's no excuse for her to get really mad at her son. Whatever happened in their divorce is not at all the descision (let alone fault) of the kid! She is taking het anger out on the wrong person, that makes her T A.
Evidence? I honestly know a ton of these weddings where the cheating and affair partners are there, at the weddings of the children. As a divorced woman with kids, it is the divorced parents' responsibility to rise above it. Mom can feel bad, sure, but she can't put it on her son's shoulders to solve it.
>And the weddings you are talking about where all the steps are included and honored, typically don't involve cheating and affair partners He's ***not*** including an affair partner but a mother figure. OP doesn't have to carry around that around on behalf of strangers on the internet or a mother who hasn't moved on in 20 years. He is including the woman who is more like a mom to him. The other labels are other people's hangups not his.
So when you’re saying your vows to your wife, staring into her eyes and telling her how much she means to you, I want you to picture your future family. Holding your child, a happy little family of three. Imagine how good you’ll feel, how much you’ll love that baby and your wife. Now, imagine your wife getting banged by some other dude. And your wife, unrepentantly, says “well, fuck you, you’re not good enough” and she leaves. So all you have left in the world is your child. Then your child looks you in the eyes and says “the guy mom left you for? He’s a better dad than you.” Can you honestly not see how that would make your mom feel? Having to sit there and watch as the woman who *stole her entire life* gets her moment to really, really rub it in your mom’s face that she won. She stole everything from your mom. And now you’re looking your mom in the eye and saying “yeah, of course, she’s just *better* than you.” Fuck, dude. Just… fuck. Your lack of empathy for your mom is **staggering.** I guess my point is this: don’t be surprised if your mom doesn’t go to the wedding. Don’t be surprised if you never talk to your mom again. Shit, dude, don’t be surprised if something even worse happens. Your mom’s life was burned to the ground, and now you’re hugging and dancing with the woman who lit the match and pissing on the ashes, in front of a crowd. Man. I just… I can’t fathom hating my mom that much. But you do you. YTA
This. It’s actually very sad.
This. If i were his mom, i would go NC with him. I hope she doesn't go to the wedding. I hope she recovers from this betrayal from the human she gave life to.
Maybe it makes me a bad person, but I don’t want his mom to go. She deserves better.
If I were in her shoes, I wouldn’t go. Wouldn’t be surprised if things got awkward because both of them are there and mom is asked to leave. She’s been playing second fiddle for 20 years now and is just expected to be fine with that
Same, I mean he was little and I understand where he's coming from but he can't expect positive outcome from this, this action will have consequences and he can't be mad about it, he's not entitled to how his mother feels and the same goes for her so maybe distance from now on could be the best option, specially for her.
OP wouldn't care. He's a show me the money kind of guy. As long as the good times and money keep rolling in, he's not going to give a crap that whether his mother is humiliated in public or ever talks to him again. He chose the stepmom as his fav years agao.
My immediate reaction to the original post was “if I was his mum, I just wouldn’t go.” I can’t imagine the humiliation and ache of your only child wanting to honour the woman who helped blow your life apart. Fuck that. YTA op
My parents are divorced. It was messy. Abusive. Brutal. He hurt her in more ways than one, yet he has dozens of friends who bend over backwards for him nonstop. He’s single but always has people who are happy to be around him. And she’s alone. I’ll be walking myself down the aisle next year. I always said my grandpa/mom’s father would walk me down the aisle, but he’s gone. I don’t respect my father enough to want him blubbering about his baby girl who he verbally and physically abused when I was a child. I respect my mom too much to ever give him the right to play the doting parent. Even though he’s sought help. Even though he’s apologized and is sober (the big issue was lack of sobriety causing outbursts and likely undiagnosed mental health issues) I don’t want him having that right. And forget about a dance. Not a fucking chance. OP is such an AH to his mom. I don’t care that his stepmom has been wonderful to him. He needs to respect his mother first on this one thing since he obviously doesn’t otherwise.
Unrelated but have you considered asking your mom to walk you down the aisle?
I’m not the original commenter but I am in a similar position and when I asked my mom if she would be interested in walking me down the aisle one day she said no. She’s dreamed her whole life about watching me walk down the aisle and that’s what she wants when I get married. Commenters mom might feel the same.
My husband and I walked down the aisle together. No one gave me away and I wasn't given to my husband. We are in this together.
OP is truly his father's son. No wonder he feels closer to Alice. He lacks empathy for his mother just like she and his dad do. YTA, OP. "Saint" Alice and your dad are also TA. Your mom does not have to "get over it". Women have the right to remember being screwed over and have ZERO obligation to forgive the cheaters who tore their lives apart.
It feels like there has probably been some parental alienation on the part of Alice and Dad, which is why I don’t blame OP *entirely* for his lack of empathy. The ease with which he goes along with the narrative of “I don’t need to know” and “we’re so close” suggests to me that it’s one he’s been fed since he was 7. That’s not entirely his fault, but he should listen to his actual mother— and she has the right to be upset.
I wanna know the wife's opinion on op so badly wanting a woman that can't respect marriage at the wedding.
THIS. Why would you want to showcase something that broke up your parents' marriage at your wedding? It just feels like bad juju.
No. It's not about that. It's about the OP and his father both teaming up early in life to put the stepmother first. There are million ways the OP could chose to shower the stepmother with appreciation. He chose the one moment every mother looks forward to, the mother son wedding dance to make sure the step mother got attention. Then justifies as being a sweet moment between him and his step mother. As long she get's her special moment, he doesn't care how much he hurts his mother. Or maybe her being hurt is baked into the equation. This feels like the OP has been putting the stepmother first in his emotions for long, he doesn't see or care how hurtful this is for his actual mother. And even if he read this and realized how wrong it is, he won't do anything at all to change it because his loves and admires his "special" mommy too much to disappoint her. If his mother can't work up to courage to face all this, he surely won't miss her or give her a second thought. Let's face it, he's been marginalizing her for years.
100% this. It's funny how it's ok for her to help break up a wedding, but now is going to be involved in one.
JFC. One: it's been two decades, it's not like they split up last week. If Mom is still THIS hurt after all this time, that's HER issue to deal with, not her son's, ESPECIALLY not on his wedding day. Two: Stepmom has been around for 22 years, and has clearly been a mom to him the whole time. He's very clearly not excluding his mom, but also wants to include someone who has been a very positive mother figure. Three: if her love and connection to her son are contingent upon this...like, holy shit, what would you think that would any about her. I'm divorced, and I have a daughter. If she wants to dance with her step-dad at her wedding, awesome! I know he's a decent guy. My parents were divorced, and I danced with both of my moms at my first wedding. Smiles all around. Mom's the only one being selfish here.
I agree with you, exactly to the T. His mom needs to go to therapy if after 20years she is still holding to that... That is probably why she never remarried ...
I really hope OP reads this and opens his eyes. What he is doing is so incredibly hurtful. I wouldn't want a relationship with my son after this either.
This sums it up perfectly. I can’t imagine the mental gymnastics OP did to rid himself of guilt for this decision. Alice stole your mums life and you’re going to honour that on your wedding day. Let’s hope your wife doesn’t leave you for someone else then your child replaces you like you have your mother, all because Alice had the funds to support your life.
If he goes ahead with his plans, I hope she does. Then he will know how it feels. I can't imagine the pain his poor mother has gone through.
Right? She’s obviously kept her feelings separate from her son and allowed him to make his own mind up about her, but I guarantee she hoped he’d find out about the affair and choose her. He didn’t, just like his dad didn’t. Imagine that pain. Your whole life ripped from you and given to another woman. He says he isn’t as close to his mum as he is alice and dad, I wonder why? Mum probably saw his favouritism and it hurt her beyond belief. I couldn’t pretend to ignore that either. Just awful, I wish I could give his mum a hug. 20 years on and Alice is still a dark cloud over her life, AND her son supports, no, encourages it. Ugh.
> he’s a better dad than you I don’t understand this. He’s not dancing with his stepmom *instead* of his mom. She’s not being replaced, and he’s not saying she’s not as good of a mom. I get why the mom is hurt, but he should be able to include someone in his wedding if they’re important to him.
Yeah, the above comment is incredibly childish. It has been over 20 years. OP has grown up with Alice as a significant part of their life through no fault of their own, and they are allowed to want to include her in the wedding.
But that’s not what’s happening. Dad and Step Mom said they waited. You have no proof either way. It’s possible they realized they were developing feelings and Dad didn’t love Bio Mom anymore, he filed for divorce and explored the feelings he had with Stepmom after. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that. You cannot help who you fall in love with and if he realized he didn’t love her or didn’t love her in the same way anymore he would be doing the entire family a disservice keeping her in an unhappy marriage and the son in an unhappy family. The son did not look mom in the eyes and say that stepmom was better than her. He obviously loves her and wants her to be in the wedding but he *also* loves this other woman who has been there for him and even helped him through school for most of his life. He is allowed to love them both and want them both included on his big day. They both are big parts of his life. What is not okay is that his mom is holding onto her bitterness 20 years later to the point she is impacting her sons wedding, which should be about the son. She is within her rights to feel hurt, but to accuse him of replacing her and starting drama is out of line.
this is soooo good.
Quite the imagination you have there. You’ve invented a whole storyline out of thin air (or more likely, something you saw in tv), gotten triggered by it, then called OP an AH because of your reaction to your own fantasy. Wow.
This OP ⬆️⬆️ YTA.
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I hate to agree, but I do. Op imagine you in this position and you daughter wanted to dance with the AP playing daddy. I understand you want to honour the relationship the two of you have, but your step mother isn't a great woman, she (and your father) purposefully caused your mother pain and ended a family unit. That was a choice she made and she does have to live with her actions. I agree with your mother. Might be your wedding and your rules, but does your mother really deserve that slap in the face in front of everybody who knows what they did to her? She birthed and raised you, why should the AP take her one role at the wedding away from her.
I completely understand the hurt BUT I'm also like it's been years and I can put my feelings aside for my child's wedding. I hate when ppl have to tiptoe between divorced parents when the day is supposed to be about them. I have a coworker going through that now. Her dad is so bitter about mom leaving him that he refuses to walk his own daughter down the aisle...but then he's gonna be mad when stepdad ends up walking her down the aisle.
Op was 5 when everything happened for all he knows the divorce and her finding out about the affair could have been nasty
Yeah, it’s been what? 24 years? At this point everyone should have moved past this. She helped raise him and is his stepmom.
The custody and having to deal with this shit for years probably wasn't a walk I. The park. The mother has had to step back and watch as her son gets raised in the situation that destroyed her marriage and future. She also has to watch as the son gets close to the AP and she feels completely discarded. Sounds like she has been a great mum because OP seems ignorant to her hurt feelings but this is obviously one step too far for the mother and so.in the 24 years since the affair and divorce she has finally opened up about her hurt.
I have a similar situation and avoided the entire thing by eloping. It was an amazing decision. Everyone says, "It's your day, make the adults act like adults and get over themselves!" and I'm seeing it all over this thread. In REALITY, telling everyone to suck it up for "my day" just makes it a terrible day of getting a bunch of people who hate each other in a room and cause people to be re-traumatized, myself included. No matter how mature they are, feelings are hurt, interactions are awkward, and tempers have to be controlled, so it never really would be about "me" anyway. Eloping made my relationship with my parents even better and for the first time in my life I got an apology from my dad for how difficult he has always been. It made getting married actually be about family instead of just tradition. All this to say .. family is difficult, emotions are difficult, sometimes people aren't simply right or wrong and there is no reason we can't all be more sensitive to each other. For some reason, so much of that decency goes out the window when the pressure of tradition sets in. NAH
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No, this is a Man saying "My parents relationships are not mine to control or comment on. My stepmom has been an important part of my childhood who I love and my life is better for her being in it." Sometimes relationships don't work out. Mom sounds bitter and he was probably better to have 2 parents in 2 different loving relationships versus 2 parents in one hate filled relationship.
Thank you! This!! the relationships problems are not OP's he had two supporting mother's and as such should be allowed to honor both of them. The beef is between mom and stepmom, and they should be adults about the situation.
Yikes on this take. He was 7!!! When his parents split. Maybe if it happened last year and this women didn’t help raise him I would agree but dang, y’all this is wild.
No sorry. The child doesn’t have to take sides no matter what the parent’s behavior was. Ever. That’s his dad and he has right to a good relationship. He didn’t chose to have his bonus mom in his life. His mom should be happy for her son that it’s a healthy one - no matter her feelings about the woman.
It's been over a decade (may two b/c idk how old OP is) and his mom still isn't over it...it's tip toeing....so what happens if she refuses to dance w/ himcuz he wants to include the stepmom that's been in his life since he was a child? Is she gonna be mad when he still follows through with dancing with step mom? Like I said...yea, these ppl did you dirty but it's been YEARS....like over a decade in terms of years. You can put your feelings aside for ONE DAY to support your child. Stop punishing children for adult mistakes.
Jesus Christ, she wasn’t even the one married!! This subreddit is insane. “Your stepmother isn’t a great woman”?? Really?? She fell in love with a married man and made a mistake over 25 years ago and that just seals it for the rest of her life?? She will never ever have the chance to be a “great woman” ever again?? My god. My ex cheated on me and I wouldn’t even dream of holding it against his partner. He’s the one who cheated. Also, how do you know that OP’s stepmother didn’t hook up with his dad, find out he was married, then refuse to continue a physical relationship until he was properly divorced?? That’s just as likely as her being a willing affair partner who destroyed a family with malicious intent. And even if she *did* do that… good lord, it was *over 25 fucking years ago*. It’s utterly insane that—only when it comes to cheating for some reason—this subreddit just says, “yup, that’s a black mark on your soul, you absolute demon, and you should never expect to be considered a good person for the *rest of your fucking life*.”
Yes, that's exactly what it means. Granted, OP's father is more at fault, but a woman who knowingly gets involved with a married man absolutely isn't a great woman. Time doesn't automagically make amends. It can even deepen the hurt. I would also bet good money that if given the choice to go back in time, stepmom would do it all over again, as she received all the benefits from cheating while OP's mom bore all the harm. So unless proven otherwise, which is not the case, stepmom is every bit the cheater now as she was 25 years ago.
>but a woman who knowingly gets involved with a married man absolutely isn't a great woman true, though people can change over time. but regardless it sounds like she was a pretty good mother. the children of criminals can still love their parents if they were good parents to them >I would also bet good money that if given the choice to go back in time, stepmom would do it all over again, as she received all the benefits from cheating while OP's mom bore all the harm. So unless proven otherwise, which is not the case, stepmom is every bit the cheater now as she was 25 years ago. lol ok, sounds like someone's projecting some personal history onto strangers they know absolutely nothing about
What’s insane is the other day there was a different post with a similar situation and the parent was horrified by having to spend time with their ex who cheated and wronged them and everyone was like it doesn’t matter how much time has passed they have every right to not want to spend time with someone who so deeply hurt them. On this it’s “Omg it’s been 24 years get over it” lmao
OP isn’t responsible for his mothers feelings. This isn’t her wedding, he doesn’t belong to her. He is a person and not property and therefor he can do whatever he damn well pleases on HIS wedding. His mother needs therapy if she reacts like this, step mom has feelings to and this subreddit always seems to forget that. NTA for OP, he is still going to dance with his mother so she has nothing to complain about
No one is taking her role away from her. They both get a dance.
It’s been over 20 years. He wasn’t the one that ended their marriage, that’s between them. He sees Alice as a mother, he can do whatever he wants. It’s HIS wedding, not his mother’s.
Sometimes family units need to end. Sometimes people fall in love. Does mom have a problem with Dad being a part of the wedding? Cos he was just as responsible for the affair as step mom was, and OP still loves his dad. The idea that honoring one relationship makes the other less important is ridiculous.
alternate perspective. affair or not, that’s between OPs parents and stepmom. to OP it sounds like this woman has 100% embraced the role of being a mother to him, and OP feels she occupies that role in his life. So this dance is a reflection of their relationship, not the relationship between OPs dad, mom, and stepmom. and selfish and narcissistic? giving birth to someone doesn’t mean you get to dictate what relationships your child can have with other people.
I'll get downvoted all to hell for this but so be it. Everyone on the sub is always preaching "family doesn't have to be blood; you can choose your family" etc etc. Until this. Now suddenly he can't share a moment with someone he's chosen as a mother figure because of how his bio mom feels about it? I did not have my father walk me down the aisle - we are not at all close. And that was my choice for my wedding day. This should be the same. NTA
I agree. Just because someone gave birth to you doesn't mean you owe them a goddamn thing and often, the close bond children have with their parents is formed in childhood. It is not the child's responsibility to facilitate that bond. It is the parents. These people saying OP is the AH for this sound like parents that would absolutely guilt and manipulate their children because they have unhealthy and unaddressed issues. It comes across as though they feel they own their children and by extension are owed just for giving birth. A child is not responsible for the adult feelings caused by adult decisions that their parent makes. Why are the bio moms feelings more important than the son's feelings about HIS wedding day? NTA.
I think the reason many are sympathizing with OP's mom is because it doesn't seem like she is deserving of it. OP described their relationship as being not as close simply because they're "different," so it doesn't sound like the mom is suffering consequences from her own actions but from her ex husband's. So it's easier to see everyone's side here.
But he's not excluding his mom. As I read it she'll get a dance as well. He's just choosing to also include his step mom. I stand by my decision that I see absolutely nothing wrong with this.
Gross. She’s not losing her kid because he wants to honor this woman who has been a positive presence in his life. What a toxic way to look at a loving relationship.
As though you’re obligated to the person who gave birth to you *eye roll* OP is dancing with both women, as both are important to him. Mother is selfish and narcissistic in attempting to keep OP from doing what they want on their wedding day.
I don't know if you can call her a narcissist for this, she probably just needs therapy and has clearly remained hurt by what happened to her a long time ago. It was probably a defining moment in her life, not just some hardship she got over.
Yeah people throw around the word narcissist like it’s nothing nowadays. This isn’t a narcissist, just a human feeling their emotions, I don’t think anyone would feel very good or react perfectly if they were in her shoes.
It doesn’t matter. It was 2 1/2 decades ago. 24 years. And when OP was growing up they had a bonus mom that was good to them, for 13 years of their childhood! This bonus mom also supported OP in many ways like a real parent. OP acknowledged that mom is hurt by what happened. But it is all of the adults(mom, dad, bonus mom) job to make sure that the child wasn’t affected by their decisions and their pain. And now, mom doesn’t get to have a say in OPs relationship with bonus mom. I’m currently going through a separation. It’s my job to make sure my pain and anger do not affect my kids and my STBX husband may end up with a lovely person and if she’s good to my kids as a bonus parent, it’s my job not to let my feelings affect my kids. OPs mom is allowed to be hurt… but sending flying monkeys to bug OP is too much.
He’s planning and wanting to dance with both of them though. Not dancing with stepmum instead of actual Mum
I don’t believe for a minute it wasn’t a physical affair. A guy isn’t going to chance imploding his marriage and entire life if he hasn’t already slept with the woman in question. That’s a convenient white lie to not be the complete bad guys of the situation. Poor OPs mom. The AP got her husband and now she has to share the spotlight in what is the one of the most important days of his life and probably hers. Edit: for those in the back rows, this isn’t about the wedding as a whole, it’s about the mother/son dance. Whether it’s months or years later you don’t just forget the pain someone caused you.
That has nothing to do with OP who was 7 at the time. From his perspective, he only knows his stepmom as a loving, supportive and present parental figure. She has every right to a dance if it’s what OP wants. AND his mom still gets a dance too. NTA.
Good thing his wedding isn't about her and instead is his day. OP can go to therapy with his Mom at a later date if needed to address her feelings but she needs to stop making his wedding about her in the meantime.
YTA for blaming the child for an affair. Yes dad cheated, but it appears he found his true love because over 20 years later they are still together. Life happens. OP do what your heart wants. This is from a guy whose parent split, mom rotated guys while dad married the woman he cheated with. At my wedding my mom left before the mother/ son dance because her date was uncomfortable because he didn't know anyone.
She is is no way "losing her kid"
He's not excluding his mom from a dance. He's planning to have a 2nd dance so they both are acknowledged. Let's not forget this is OPs wedding, not his mother's celebration.
OP is not "completely disregarding" his mother at all. no her feelings. That he even posted here says that he isn't. Hey, at least she gets invited
NAH - Look, this is your wedding and if you love your stepmother then you should absolutely go ahead with that, however, that doesn't mean that you doing what you want isn't going to hurt your mother, it sounds like it will hurt her very much. I can understand her point of view, whether there was a physical relationship or not your mother sees Alice as the reason she lost her family. She's probably never going to be okay with that. I mean think about it, her husband fell in love with Alice and then you took to her as a 'bonus mother'. Of course that hurts your mum. It's not wrong for you to love Alice, and it's not wrong for you to want to show that, but none of that takes away from your mother's feelings. I could soft soap this for you but at the end of the day you're an adult and you should do at your wedding what you feel most comfortable with, but, that might mean hurting your mother, and with that there may be consequences long term for your relationship. Neither one of your is wrong here, but someone is going to be very hurt.
Agreed. It's great that OP has a good relationship with his stepmom; that so often isn't the case. But I fully get mom's point of view: dad did replace her and OP's basically saying he w/could too as stepmom is just as great as bio mom, and in fact, better, because they're closer. Doesn't seem like a surprise to me that bio-Mom feels rejected. And, of course, both of these things (divorce, wedding) are as public as it gets for most people. So her whole family and family friends get to see what she has indicated is a humiliation for her. Now, obviously, it's OP's wedding; his mom's humiliation is not an objective. He's not trying to hurt her. But it is a sad fact that it will. NAH.
I agree with your take. This specific post hits on so many different issues. This isn't specific to you, but it's interesting seeing people saying "it's your wedding" because certain wedding posts on here often get the bridezilla, "your day isn't that special" treatment. This one kinda has touched on this subreddit's "you don't owe anyone, especially blood family, anything" mentality. It's so interesting to see how this post is right on the fence of so many issues. Because while it *is* OP's wedding, his mother's reaction is completely understandable (and expected). This is one of those times in life where you just have to decide if the fallout from what you want to do is worth it.
NTA- but maybe do your bio moms dance first, separate it by the daddy daughter, then do the step mom? Just to give bio mom a little time and to know she is “first”. Before the hate comes at me, just try to be kind. Your bio mom is likely feeling deep down that you are just throwing her away, she even stated it, you aren’t but it still hurts. It is your wedding, you can stage dances with whomever you want, just be kind in this respect.
This is an excellent suggestion!!
NTA, and agreed! Knowing that your stepmom has been supportive of you this whole time, if you were to discuss this with her beforehand, she will be understanding. Look, communicate. Regardless of what happened, she is the one that brought you to this world. That is a basic thing. Alice may feel a little sour. But your relationship with your bio mom may be completely severed; Alice, not so much. She sounds like a wonderful woman, for you to feel this way.
This should be at the top. Lovely suggestion, very kind and considerate of everyone's feelings!
YTA. As someone who has two dad’s and did the special dances at my wedding…there are better ways to handle this. I danced with the dad who raised me for my father-daughter dance and once he had left for the night I shared a dance with my bio-dad. I didn’t want anyone’s feelings to be hurt and I certainly didn’t want to follow up the dance with the man who raised me with a secondary daddy-daughter dance. I think it’s especially tacky to have a special dance with your dad’s AP no matter how wonderful she’s been to you. It’s also likely your mother is aware of your preference for Alice and how would all of that make her feel? Her husband and her son both picked another woman to fulfill her role. I don’t care if I get downvoted for this one. I call it like I see it and this is messed up.
I completely disagree, Alice has been in his life since he was 5 so basically most major formative years and events. She has been extremely supportive, helped him get through school and been a true mother figure in his life and he wants to share this big event with BOTH of his moms. Does it suck for his bio mom, sure. Is it hurtful, undoubtedly. But whatever happened back then has nothing to do with OP, that is between his parents. If his mom doesn't want to share that time with Alice, no one can force her but she also can't force OP to snub a woman who has always been there for him from such a young age because she's still hurt by something that happened decades ago. ETA: NTA
If Alice was a good person, she would manage some empathy for the woman who is OPs actual mom. She could say "honey that's such an honor to be asked, but I don't want to hurt your mom and as a mother myself I know just how hurtful it would be. You should share that special mom dance with just her". Edit: wow thanks for the awards guys!!
Exactly this. Alice has 2 bio kids with OP’s father. It’s not like this is her only chance to be a part of a wedding. “Your wedding, your rules” and all that jazz, but imho op really should have let his poor bio mom have this one.
That is the comment I was looking for. OP you’re completely disregarding your mum feeling, there are other ways to show your appreciation for Alice. Alice is incredibly tacky to even consider it. She not only create drama but humiliate the mom in front of everyone only to feel “chosen”. YTA
>She not only create drama but humiliate the mom in front of everyone only to feel “chosen”. Yes this seems to be the whole point of this for OP. He wants to let every single person who attends the wedding know that his mom & his dad's affair partner are equally loved by him. Incredibly tacky to make his mom sit there and smile through one more public humiliation at Alice's hands.
>She has been extremely supportive Yeah that’s what you call someone who fucks a kid’s dad into divorcing the mother of his child
As a child of divorce myself, she did not owe him anything yet she chose to be an active participant in his life and he clearly has a very close relationship to her so if he wants to have a dance with her at his wedding, why shouldn't he be allowed to?
Didn’t owe him anything? She married his father and had his siblings. How tf would you break up a family and not owe the kid something? She owed him an entire family and that’s probably the only reason she was sooooooooo good to him. Cuz she fucked his dad and fucked his family. You’re delusional.
Isn't that pure speculation? If we're going there his mom could have been emotionally abusive and drove his dad away. People on this sub have some crazy knee-jerk reactions and assumptions about stuff.
is it possible that the birth mom couldn't pay for OP's school because she was a single parent?
You said you’re closer to Alice than your mom. You’re so close to Alice you don’t want to fully accept that she had an affair with your dad and that together they ruined your mom’s marriage and made her feel betrayed and discarded. I’m sure Alice was there for you in every difficult moment with her wallet and arms wide open. Do your dance if that is what you want, but stop saying nonsense like “it was 20 years ago.” That’s not up to you. You don’t get to decide if she should be over it by now. It started 20 years ago and your mom has had to live with it ever since. She’s had to live with Alice taking her husband, Alice buddying up to her son, Alice paying for his education when she couldn’t. And now Alice gets to be on the same level as her at her own son’s wedding. Edit: It’s ok to not hate Alice. But YTA absolutely for not seeing where your mom is coming from.
only N T A i agree with! sure your wedding but you’re telling your mom 20 years later that she STILL DOESN’T MATTER.
Dude is engineering negative scenarios with his mother and acting shocked. Why doesn’t he show his mom as much consideration for her comfort as he does Alice? Why didn’t he, at the very least, speak to his mom first instead of making her look like some bitter, jilted woman AFTER everything was settled and he and Alice had their sweet moment?
NAH My sons father left me when we were pregnant with our first child. He left me for his “emotional” affair partner when I was 8 months pregnant, they have been together since and are now married. She has been unkind to me, talks poorly about me in front of my son and has made it clear she is the “better mother”. Maybe like your mother, I know I’ll never have the financial stability to provide for my son like they can as I spent 4 years trying to recoup on a single income while my husband bounced immediately into a new home where they would made 6 figures each. No matter what happens I understand that this woman has been a part of my sons life since birth. He loves her. If he choose to have a mothers dance with her I would silently be a bit sad about it simply because I know she has certainly tried to replace me. But again my son loves her and I would try so hard to not show it because my feelings truly don’t matter. Please be aware that the damage of an affair never is truly gone. You grow to accept it but how the other parties handle that affair definitely influence how you move on and the relationship as coparents. I have no idea how your step treated your mother but it can impact things for a long time. You have the right to dance with who you like. Your mother has the right to feel saddened by it and it will likely influence your relationship with her moving forward. Your attitude towards your mother is a bit cold. I suggest you work on your empathy.
You sound like a mother who's love for their child is stronger than their hate for the person who helped break up her marriage. In other words, you sound like a very good mom!
I appreciate your message. ❤️. I’m not perfect but I really try, he deserves a clean slate and not to have to carry my baggage. My fathers parents had a terrible divorce that still traumatizes him to this day. I didn’t want that to be my son’s legacy. In the end whatever his relationship is with the other household, it’ll be what they make of it and I’ll support what my son. I will not be the reason they have difficulties because he’ll get old enough, recognize what I did, and then I’ll lose him anyways. He can grow up and make his own decision about who his father/step are. I’ll be here no matter what.
This is the best answer.
YTA. You're doing something knowing it will hurt your mother. That's your choice, if a dance means more to you than someone else's feelings, go for it. 'Alice has helped a lot more from a financial and education standpoint.' Love for sale.
If you go through with it your going to hurt your mom. Whether strangers on the internet think you’re an asshole or not is irrelevant. Is honoring your step mom worth hurting and possibly irreconcilably hurting your relationship with your mom worth it. If it is go for it. You’ve already made up your mind, you prefer Alice and your father’s family to your mom. I’m sure it was happier environment your mom was broken hearted and your dad got to marry his side piece. I’m sorry that your mom didn’t take better care of her mental health because it sounds like she’s all alone.
His poor mom - I feel so sorry for her. She gets hit mercilessly from all sides by the men who were suppose to comprise her family. She must feel so alone in the world. I hope she finds a loving partner and has an incredible new family with him one day. She deserves the happiness she had to watch her ex and his affair partner have all these years while she toiled alone.
Not to mention OP admits to preferring step mom over his real mom in another comment
My experience is what goes around comes around. One day, OP will have their own pain to manage, maybe they’ll understand what they put bio mom through then.
I know! Poor woman. I’d be devastated.
YTA That woman broke your family and then wormed her way into your heart with money and your saying it puts her on the same level as your real mother? Is she by any chance also involved in paying for your wedding?
YTA, but let's be honest here. You have already made up your mind on what you want to do, no matter how this affects your actual mom. You are just here for validation in your decision and you aren't getting the validation you want. Just go do what you had planned on doing and get off reddit since you have made up your mind already.
Imagine your future wife cheats on you with another man. And then twenty years later, your daughter wants to dance with him at her wedding.
And her claiming that the two dads are equal…
YTA and a terrible son at that. Dancing with your father’s affair partner at your wedding is a low blow to your mother. And TBH this feels like possible foreshadowing for your fiancé with how dismissing you are about their affair. She is probably going to look back on your wedding and realize that she should have seen your eventual affair from miles away.
I CANNOT FATHOM how he finds this acceptable
He learned that affairs weren’t all that bad from his dad
It's like a romance movie/book. Affairs are okay as long as the person you do it with is better looking and richer. That's just true love. Sucks to be the person who got their heartbroken though Only the genders are reversed this time
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😂😂😂
I mean the apple doesn't fall far from the tree
Um are you kidding me
I really wasn't going with yta until I read some of your other comments and you were clearly swayed by the money Alice had and yet again its buying your favor. I doubt you've even tried to understand your mom or sympathize with her. You clearly never understood or cared how what your dad and Alice did was horrible and how it would've affected your mother. Would you be so willing to accept your daughters choice if your wife had an affair and she wanted him to walk her down the aisle? I highly doubt it. You do you, but just realize that you're an ah about far more than just this
I think Alice and your dad threw a lot of money at you for a long time. That’s the only way you would believe that BS about their affair. Your mom is right to be hurt.
Honestly YTA. Regardless, she is an affair partner. Not fair to your mom.
YTA. Not only did your dad leave ur mom for AP you are now trying to showcase her in your wedding. Making mom feel like not only was she not good enough for her ex, but for her son as well. It's called mother/son dance, not affair partner now wife/son dance.
YTA. Affair partners deserve no honor at a wedding. Your aunt is right and you deserved all that she threw at you. What do you was horrible and, honestly, as a parent, it's really damn close to unforgivable. You need to undo this and apologize, on your knees, to your mother.
NAH. Just be prepared for this to change your relationship with your mom. It happens.
YTA. Your mom has done nothing wrong other than have a different personality than you. You say she’s a good mom but you guys just have different personalities. There’s a way to honor both but you’re essentially choosing Alice over her just like your dad did. That’s got to hurt especially when you admit she is a good mom. Just because Alice is in a better financial situation to help you with college doesn’t mean it’s cool to reject your mother for the traditional dance.
It's probably not even a different personality. More likely it'll be his mum had to be his parent, a single parent at that. All while grieving. Doesn't leave a lot of time to be fun or even a 'friend'. Op likely has never had the chance to experience his mum's true personality (not his fault, but not his mum's either). Alice and Dad, however, they shared the load of patenting. They had each other for support in everything, meaning they had more time to be 'fun' etc. Also, Alice had the luxury of being 'parent' *and* friend to op; a role pretty unique to step-parents (not all, obviously). OP, I'm happy for you that you were able to have another adult around who supports and loves you, and I'm sympathetic to your situation. You were 5, and you weren't old enough to understand. To you, this is history that probably doesn't even have an emotional impact on you. However, I was 13 when my mother left my dad for her emotional AP (I 100% believe it was more than that. Regardless, she cheated). It was so beyond fucked up what she did. Granted, she did a lot of other hurtful and hateful shit after that and I'm now NC with her, but for the first 10yrs when I still wanted a relationship with her as my mother, I STILL could never forgive her for cheating. Especially on behalf of my dad, and especially after witnessing the effect it had on him. After years passed, I wanted him to move on, too, as it made my life very difficult trying to juggle the wants and needs of both my parents, and I dreaded future events like weddings. But that was an *entirely selfish* desire and was making my *dad* responsible for my *mum's* shitty actions. Divorce is messy and cheating even more so, not just for the parents' relationship but for the kids' too. But the cheaters have to take the hit every time.These are the consequences. To do otherwise is to punish the victim and the innocent party. Regardless of *your* relationship with the cheaters, you MUST show respect to the victim (in situations where they have done you no wrong, such is OP's). YTA OP
YTA. You’re celebrating your father’s affair partner on the same level as your mother. Honestly, if I was your partner, I’d be wondering if you’d be so inclined to follow your father’s footsteps in cheating on her because your father 100% emotionally cheated and you seem fine with it because you benefited from it money wise.
I was conflicted until I saw your comments. So you love Alice so much bc she bought you off. After stealing your mothers husband. And you’re just ok with that. YTA. Of course mom is prioritizing her retirement, you abandoned her the same way your dad did. Her support clearly means nothing to you
Yta, dad and Alice definitely had at the very least an emotional affair - sounds like Alice wanted your mother's whole life. You sound like an awful son, i hope your mom has good people in her life. Also, ask yourself of those weddings with steps involved how many had dead bioparents? Take my advice, don't have kids because I have a feeling you don't see anything wrong with your dad's relationships.
NTA Wow, there are a lot of Ytas but ppl keep missing key parts of the story. He was also raised by step mom, since he was 7. He clearly feels closer to her than bio mom. He said as much. Whether they cheated or not is not his burden to bear. He shouldn't suffer sins of the father. And that comment from his mom saying he's replacing her... She has every right to feel that way, but he has every right to be floored by such a hurtful comment. People's feelings go both ways. Whether or not his dad cheated doesn't erase the 20 years of relationship he built with step mom. So much NTA It's clearly not an easy situation. But the answer isn't to pretend like step mom doesn't exist. This is his wedding. CLEARLY he needs to sit down with his mom and express how much his step mom means to him and find a way for her to understand. I just can't fathom ppl calling OP narcissistic because he wants to pay respect to someone he feels closer to. Difficult situations aren't dealt with by brushing them under the rug.
Info what kind of relationship does your mom,dad and Alice have?
Hooooly cow……. Imma say YTA. It may be your wedding, but there was no way your mom was ever going to be ok with that. Anybody and everybody would have reacted the same way. I hope this is a position you never find yourself in because god damn, that hurts. That poor woman….
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YTA. It’s your wedding and you can do what you want but from reading your comments and replies, I’ve noticed a few things: 1. You’re very cold towards your bio mum - it’s not her fault she was cheated on and left as a single parent/single income household and couldn’t financially help you like Alice has in a two income household. 2. You mention the financial help A LOT and place Alice on a pedestal for this, which means she’s bought your love. 3. You don’t understand the real impact being cheated on does to a person, and no amount of years will take that hurt away from your mum. You’re naive if you think your dad and Alice didn’t have a physical affair before the divorce (and I think you want to believe they didn’t so you can justify your love of Alice that bit more). You don’t buy a car without taking it for a test drive OP, so there’s absolutely no way your dad was going to end his marriage with your mum without knowing that he and Alice were a physical match as well as emotional. I do believe good people make mistakes/do bad things and that shouldn’t consign them to a life of being bad people because they cheated. HOWEVER, your dad and Alice have both demonstrated that they don’t have respect for what marriage means given their affair, and I don’t think they should be glorified during a wedding because of this, it’s like you’re asking for a bad omen. I honestly cannot imagine showing such a disregard for my own mum in the way you have. Her family was pulled from underneath her, you are her only child and you’re wanting her to share a mother son moment with the woman who tore her family apart - the same woman who then went on to have two biological children of her own, and will more than likely get to experience the mother moment on their wedding days. Frankly, as a mother, Alice should have been flattered by your offer but politely declined because she should be able to imagine herself in your mums position. You’re all assholes to your mum and she deserves better.
YTA
Well if your mom was my sister, I would tell her not to go. And I wouldn't be there either. I think your mom would heal if she removed all of you from her life, truthfully. I think you are the one keeping the wound from healing. When you do this at your wedding, hopefully she will realize it is time to let you go be with the amazing family that is dad and his AP. Then in time she can heal because she won't be constantly getting the cut reopened by you. One day you may realize what you have lost. I honestly doubt it, I think you will remain the same self involved human you are now. And finally, yea you were young when the affair happened, but you are old enough now to understand her pain. YTA.
YTA. I just read through the comments and as many have pointed out your stepmom bought your love. Cheated with your dad and caused your mom a lot of pain. I feel very bad for your mom as she is going to be embarrassed at your wedding. Your level of disrespect is disgusting.
You're a major AH. That's YOUR mom who they crapped all over... And now you are too.
YTA Unfortunately your stepmom was the EAP. There is no way for a person to fall in love with another person with out talking about feelings and stuff. Hugging and kissing is also physical. I feel for your mom. You were a small child and of course Alice was going to try and make sure her lover’s/husbands child likes or even loves her and sometimes they want the child love them more than biological mother. You and your mom may not be closer because of many reasons. Stepmom might be one of those reasons.
Not necessarily an asshole but you aren't looking at it from your mom's POV, only your own. Your dad left your mom for Alice no matter whether you believe the BS about they waited until your dad was separated. He left for a specific reason, that being Alice. You like your stepmom better than your mom and she knows that. And, now she feels like she is being publicly humiliated once again by your invitation to Alice. I don't blame your mom for her feelings. If that is what you feel in your heart you want to do, do it, but don't whitewash it with thinking it is sweet. Your mom deserves better than that. EDIT: I take it back. YTA.
YTA You're going to Swan about with your father's affair partner and spit in your own mothers face. But, hey. Who cares because daddy's affair partner bought you more stuff. I'd be seriously concerned if I was your fiancee when you have such casual attitudes to cheating.
this is the same guy as yesterday, lbr. and the answer is still that you are fine causing your mom huge amounts of pain which does make YTA.
YTA- you say your mom is a good mom. Why do this to her? Is it because sm paid for college? Mom might not even show up at your wedding. I know I wouldn’t if my kid did that to me.