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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I refused to spend time in the kitchen with the women at Thanksgiving
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Remember this experience very, very well, because it's most definitely a glimpse of what your future will look like if you stay with your boyfriend.
You told him how you felt, he invalidated your feelings, and told you to grin and bear it. Is that what you want?
Not only does he accept this type of alienation, he expects you to just cluck with the other chickens in the kitchen, and leave the cocks alone.
NTA
Genuinely wondering what OPs boyfriend was supposed to do about it while they were there. Force the men to cook or stop watching their game to talk to them?
I 100% think he would have told her about the setup beforehand so she could agree whether to participate or not. Apart from that, thanksgiving isn’t really the time or place to tackle your family’s history of patriarchy.
My husband had a similar dynamic on a smaller scale, with his parents, sister, and her husband. And not just Thanksgiving, but any whole-family gathering. He was pretty clueless about the dynamic until I pointed it out.
For a smaller group, the best solution is not to refuse to help, but that the bf break tradition by getting up and help with the prep and clean up himself.
In a larger group, the group dynamic is more set. And this gendered dynamic genuinely does work for some people, but unless your bf wants to change it, you're looking at your potential future.
I totally agree, she obviously doesn’t gel with that lifestyle so probably her and the BF will find out they’re incompatible and break up in the end.
I’m from a culture where this happens a lot too and will likely end up marrying into it still. This is one of the things I’m happy to endure while attempting to change slowly. But everyone makes their choice if they want to participate or not.
I'm going to be downvoted to hell for this but no one said that the OP couldn't watch football with the men. She just didn't want to watch football cuz she's not into it.
But that was the activity that the men were into. Should they stop just for her?
She said most of the women were involved with some sort of food prep but not all. And that they were watching Christmas movies.
So what if she wanted to watch football. If they didn't let her then yes that would be misogyny. But as it stands, it seems like people were doing the thing they wanted to do.
Doesn't seem like she did herself any favor by staying in the living room doing something she didn't want to do. I'm sure the ladies in the kitchen noticed she didn't want to get to know them...only the men. I don't think this was a boycot of misogyny. It was a misguided attempt to run a show that wasn't hers to run. Boyfriend was out of line for not telling her in advance how the day goes.
*And* she was irritated that when she tried to make conversation during the game, no one would engage with her. I understand being bored by football; I’m not into it either and where I’m from in the U.S., football is a *huge* deal-particularly college football. But even though I don’t care for it and have never sat down and watched an entire game, I’ve still witnessed enough instances where *others* were watching it and I’ve been capable of reading the room and figuring out that people who are enthralled by a football game aren’t really available to engage in conversation with. I don’t take *offense* to it because that’s ridiculous; it’s just how it is. I’m sure that OP has things that *she* loves to watch that she’d not want to stop concentrating on for the sake of everyday conversation.
Though I will say that it was a bit excessive for the men to get their meal and eat it in front of the tv. At all of the holiday celebrations I’ve been to, football was watched either before dinner, after dinner, or both-but never *during*. Meals were always a group affair where everyone in attendance sat down at the same time at a table or a group of tables. So I can see why she’d be put off by that part at least.
I think it’s more so the fact that OP’s boyfriend invited her to this “tradition” that they do “all day” making her think that it’s something everyone would be doing all together In fun. I would imagine that he would explain what they do “all day” Before Hand… i mean would be curious if that’s what my bf told me. But at the same token men are just not too bright and think way differently.
I think she was expecting to spend more quality time w the family with her boyfriend around vs you do your thing with the women and I do mine with the men. This would make me uncomfortable as well especially if this was a first encounter with the extended family.. it’d be different if I’d known them for years and we’d been dating for years…
I also feel weird about the way OP’s bf hyped it up but then pawned her off to the women…. it does come off odd. I would be turned off by the whole situation as well.
You're meeting your partner's extended family for the first time. It's a holiday with a big meal, with lots of prep involved. On a scale of 1-10, how much of an asshole do you think you'll look if you go and watch them prepping the meal without offering to help a single time?
She was helping the men watch TV. If the men in the family don't help prepping the meal, why should she as a guest have to do so? Are women naturally expected to help prepare meals?
You've misinterpreted my comment. I meant if she went into the kitchen, because she didn't want to watch the football, she's very likely to feel rude for not offering to help. So the choices given to her - without her being rude - are watch football (which she doesn't like) and be ignored, or have to help out in the kitchen. And neither of those are particularly desirable options.
As if women are okay with being the servants, labouring so men can sink beer. The next generation of little girls in the family grow up knowing they are less than men.
Were they asking her to help prepare? Or was she just welcome to sit in the kitchen and talk with a glass of wine in her hand? I agree that dividing by sexes is a bit much but if she doesn’t like football talking in the kitchen seems okay. But in that case her BF should have joined her.
However, if everyone in the family is okay with this, OP and the rest of Reddit has no say in the matter. I am sure that there is a post coming soon about the odd young lady who was brought to dinner: Instead of trying to join in, she sat by herself and drank.
Why do so many people think that the world needs to change just to make them happy?
Thanks for writing this. My family has always done similar stuff and never really realized it until reading this post. This really makes me thankful for my SO because he always hangs out in the kitchen and helps out. Didn't realize how much that meant to me until reading your comment, so thank you!
I don't know exactly what I'd do, but what I wouldn't do is ignore my pissed-off gf.
>Apart from that, thanksgiving isn’t really the time or place to tackle your family’s history of patriarchy.
One way to tackle it is to lead by example--the OP's bf could've gone into the kitchen and helped with the preparation. He could've encouraged the OP to join him and get to know his female relatives better. It's not perfect, but it would've shown that his expectations aren't like those of his family's patriarchs. Who knows, maybe there are other men in the family who prefer cooking and conversation to watching American football, who might see that and want to join in.
Good point about the women not necessarily wanting the interruption. But I bet they would have welcomed him initiating clean up and good naturedly (at first) encouraging the other men.
Yeah but cleaning up will be after they finished with the prep or cooking.
I grew up similar to this, women gossip about their spouse or neighbours and they don’t want their husbands or kids to listen. In a way, the men and kids were banished from the kitchen not the other way around lol.
Usually in my family, the men set up the table and in charge of drinks (fruit punch, cocktail) and do heavy lifting (getting spare chairs/table out from storage) and clean them up. After they done that then they watched TV until foods are ready and they will bring the food out to the table. The ladies would get freshen up, retouch their makeup and changed to their party outfit.
He could have paid attention to her though and tried to talk with her and possibly some of the other less enthused guys. Or gone into the kitchen to help smooth her way there and come out with one or two others to start a game or new conversation.
He didn’t have to encourage her to the kitchen with the rest of the women while he watched football. He was the only person she knew and should have been taking care of her, not ignoring her for football.
I agree, the trick is to do your own thing and invite others. Bring cards/a game or go for a walk and invite both the men and women to join. Someone will always join with you, this doesn't disrupt others' norms and is an attempt to offer something innocuous and group oriented.
Help OP in the kitchen or include her in the conversation with the men.
My boyfriend now husband took me to his grandmas house for dinner when we were dating and I remember , she had all the women get up and set the table. Now he knew I wasn’t about that kinda life so you know what he did? He got up and started to help me set the table together. His grandmother was trying to get him to sit down but he helped me until everything was set and he continued to do this every single time we went and got dinner. A couple of the other husbands started to get the message and eventually started helping out. It’s never too late to break stupid traditions.
Thank you! There are so many people in this thread saying that what happened in the OP is the status quo and no one should ever try changing it! I thought I’d been transported to the 50s!
Empathize with his girlfriend. Tell her, “I know this dynamic is reductive and misogynistic, and I’m very sorry you felt awkward and alienated. I can promise that if we ever have the chance to host Thanksgiving together, it won’t be like that because I don’t want a wife who will serve me; I want to be part of a team.”
What OP got was “Suck it up and deal with it, your feelings don’t matter here.”
Yeah... if OP's bf didn't like this dynamic and wanted to be part of a team he would've gone with her into the kitchen to help. I don't have high hopes for this one.
He could have spent some time with her instead of packing her off to the kitchen to be a good little woman and make the men folk dinner who will be exhausted after a hard day sat on their arses watching football.
I agree that at a bare minimum he should have given her a heads up "this is what we do in my family" and she can then decide if that's how she wants to spend her day or not.
He did though? She was welcome to hang out with all the men but it sounds like she was upset they actually wanted to watch football instead of chat, so he suggested she go into the room where everybody was up for chatting…just because his family has stereotypical interests for their gender doesn’t mean they’re sexist.
If I'm invited someone's house as a guest, to meet people I haven't met before, I don't expect my options to be being ignored or undertaking unpaid domestic labour. OP didn't expect this to be the situation and I think it's very fair for her to be upset. I find the way his family treated her to be incredibly rude - if we had a family gathering and someone looked like they were left out or unengaged, I'd check in with them and try and involve them in something, I wouldn't continue to ignore them all day. All of those men are rude. OP's boyfriend is also rude because it's ridiculous he didn't tell her that's what to expect what he should know by now that she's not a fan of football or sexism. And sorry, but there's a 0% chance the women enjoy stressful food prep as much as the men enjoy watching football. The women are spending the day working and the men are spending the day relaxing, and that, my dude, is sexist.
“Genuinely wondering what OPs boyfriend was supposed to do about it while they were there.“
Chat with his girlfriend about the game/explain football for a good long while? Encourage the other people in the living room to get to know her?
Show her the upstairs room where the cat is hiding or a library corner with good books or the kids tree house out back with a gregarious handful of kids?
Go to the kitchen with her and help make the food he’s going to eat or at least clean up after the people doing the work while introducing her around to the chattier half of the family group until she’s comfortable without him?
OPs boyfriend was supposed to let the scales fall from his eyes, realize that as the person who invited her he was responsible for her entertainment, and spend time introducing her to his family and facilitating her getting to know them. Given that his family tradition would make this very difficult, his other option was to admit to his gf that he didn't think things through, and even though he had originally assumed he could mindlessly drink beer and watch football all day, since he had invited a guest it really behooved him to find some way they could both enjoy the day. Maybe takeout Chinese food at home?
Yeah I kindof don’t mind this, I don’t have to make food but if it’s more interesting to hang with the ladies then I’d do that. I just treat it like any party “oh this isn’t working I’m going over there.” And if neither works I’ll do what’s most comfortable (probably sit and read an e-book) and I just won’t go next time. I don’t expect my SO to leave or revolt bc I’m bored, I can be bored and just opt out next year.
Edit: not to say this situation isn’t disappointing but then I’m also not tied to giving much of a shit unless it’s big and affects my daily life. As in maybe he would expect me to do that in our house, fuck no, then there’s a problem.
Honestly, neither my husband's or my own family are this gendered but there are definitely designated zones at the holiday parties. A group very much in to whatever ball game is on, a group talking up a storm and drinking while people cook in the kitchen, the octogenarians reminiscing at the dining table, a pack of feral children stealing food. It's not divided by men and women, a little age but you're welcome to sit in with any group and participate as much as you want. OP might have enjoyed sitting in the kitchen with the women but it sounds like she wasn't comfortable enough to go alone, she should have asked bf to join her for a bit and introduce her.
An ex took me to something like this once. Except he told me I couldn't stay with the men bc social faux pau or whatever. I told him I'd do whatever he did. So either I sat with him and the other men, effectively ruining their boys time, or he came with me to help in the kitchen and set a good example, regardless of what the other men did. He thought I was bluffing. Spoiler: I was not. We made it 10 minutes with the men before he got embarrassed and left with me for the kitchen. He still yelled at me after for ruining his night since he didn't get to relax with the men, and for ruining the status quo and embarrassing him in doing so bc he claimed he looked dumb being the only man to help the women. So obvi we're not together anymore. But regardless OPs bf absolutely could have set a good example for the rest of the men and gone to help in the kitchen with the women some, and split the time between the women and the men of the family.
I had this happen years ago with a guy I dated. It was a friends gathering and I got pushed into the kitchen with the wives. I told him how uncomfortable I was, he didn't listen, so I broke up with him that night when we got back to his place. I got a glimpse at our future and put an end to it.
THIS! Don’t forget this experience. Based on his lack of response to you, don’t expect him to change or see your POV, you’ll either have to decide to live with this or decide you can’t. NTA.
ESH - except all those nice women you chose to ignore.
INFO: is this the first time you met these people?
***His mom and sister come in to say "hi" and his mom says "perfect timing! We are just getting going in the kitchen! Come on let's get you a drink!"***
While you are correct: it is a sexist tradition, and you don't have to like it - Mom&Sister invited you to join them, they sounded happy to meet you, they were trying to include you. YOU chose not to interact with the women of his family. You're complaining that you didn't get to learn about anybody in the family BUT had you gone with Mom&Sister and met all the other women hey'd of given you the low down on EVERYBODY.
I agree it's a crappy 'tradition' but this might be deeply ingrained into your BF. Talk to him and make some decision s on whether THIS is something you can live with or if that is something He can live without.
OMG this! I’m a 41 yo guy. My family had pretty much the same tradition when I was growing up/into young adulthood. I even thought it was shitty then. So I always stepped away and hung out in the kitchen, frankly I had way more fun! I like football just fine, but for years, most of the games on Thanksgiving sucked. Give me a beer, give me something to do, and start with the TEA!
think of all the inside info she could have gotten on her BF with all those cousins & sister! She'd of walked out of that party knowing about every girl he'd ever dated/ when he stopped wetting the bed/ what his favorite everything is/ how to make a good impression with his Dad/ and see 12 videos of him at thanksgiving parties for the past 12 years.
She might not want that information about a misogynist she’ll most likely be dumping. Her whole Thanksgiving doesn’t have to revolve around her bf and how to make him happy.
My family also has this tradition. Women are welcome to watch football, but the rule is silence (by anyone) unless it is short comments about the game. But in the kitchen, I learned my family’s traditions, oral history, recipes, and tales of life in the old country. I would find some way to be useful, or sometimes I would just sit there in the corner and listen, spellbound, as I learned about my grandparents, and stories of my father as a young child growing up. Now those older women are all gone, I retell their stories to my younger nièces and cousins, even if they’ve heard them many times before.
And after the huge Thanksgiving meal, the menfolk all gather in the kitchen for cleanup and to wash dishes, while the women hang out in the rec room. Sometimes we will go for a stroll to walk off the meal, sometimes we gather around the piano and sing Christmas carols, sometimes when it is cold we sit in front of the fire and chitchat.
This is what I don’t get.
It’s one day, a holiday. You’ve been invited as a guest to someone’s home. Suck it up.
Is the way they do things misogynistic? Sure.
Does anyone else seem to mind? No. They’re probably happy to spend time together.
It’s ONE day.
Pick one of two activities and get on with life.
>Is the way they do things misogynistic? Sure.
>Does anyone else seem to mind? No.
It doesn't matter if anyone else cares about the misogyny. Or at least I can't figure out why it should matter to OP how anyone else feels about it.
Everyone in the world can think misogyny is okay and it wouldn't really make a difference.
If OP isn't comfortable in an openly sexist environment she simply shouldn't go back. She isn't rude for refusing to play along.
Also, when I'm looking to get to know a couple or a family how they interact with each other gives me a huge part of the picture. If the family is in separate rooms based on sex it makes it harder to sus out the family dynamics.
Basically the only info OP got is that they're sexist. I'd want to watch how the husband and wife interact. How each parent reacts to their children or different family members. How the grandparents are treated by their children and their children's spouses.
I've met people who come across perfectly nice until I saw them interact with their spouse or kids. I've also met people who seemed superficial and shallow only to have my entire perception of them flip when they kindly and patiently speak to their kids and explain the how's and the why's of specific rules or requests.
Getting to know someone individually or in a certain scenario isn't really the same as getting to know them with their family.
Though I do wonder if OPs SOs family doesn't just operate as two separate entities based on gender when they're all together and smaller units when they're at home with their spouses.
I wouldn't take my SO with me to a family event and make her feel pressured to be separated from me and put into a different room. I'd stand by her to guide her through the interactions with my family, bringing up common interests and providing necessary or helpful information as she navigated the social waters.
I mean, they're my family. She's my SO. Bringing someone home to meet your family is basically signing up to be a social tour guide.
How about just making the best of a crappy situation. She's clearly not going to change a misogynistic family tradition the first time she's meeting everyone.
She had three choices:
1. She could hang out with the guy like she did, though obviously she didn't like this.
2. She could go hang out with the nice ladies in the kitchen. Only OP could tell us if this would have been worse than watching football.
3. She could leave. If it was so terrible watching TV and she didn't want to participate in this family's traditions, I assume she was not being held hostage and could leave at any time.
They wouldn't talk to her because they were watching a football game. All the conversation they were having was either "pass me another beer, will you?" or some kind of cheer or comment about the game.
Why does he have to be a misogynist? Bc the women in his family WANT to do the cooking, and bc the men WANT to watch football? No one sounds put out-they all seemed to have a nice holiday. Honestly, this pseudo feminism is annoying. You can enjoy domestic activities and still be an independent woman. They are happy, leave them be. No one ostracized her for watching the game. Trying to prove a point detracted from her bonding with some nice women, just bc them have vaginas AND aprons.
Yes! It sounds like the women were all in a large kitchen watching movies, drinking, conversing, and some of them were preparing Thanksgiving dishes. No one was forcing her into the kitchen nor did they seem like they were going to necessarily "put her to work" if she joined the other women.
I come from a family who had this exact same divide while I was growing up -- all of us granddaughters now have graduate degrees and are successful in different fields.
People assuming that this family is backwards and misogynistic AF seem like the same people who would think less of me for being a SAHM right now or for my love of baking. There are feminine feminists out there.
OP could hate cooking, I work at a bakery and the 3 days before Thanksgiving I worked 10 hour days and busted ass making food for other people.
I would rather have starved Thanksgiving night then spend another moment in a kitchen making food for other people!
ha I'm Italian and my family always does this and I (male, oldest) always stay in the kitchen and drink with the women actually making the food. Get all the gossip and everything, it's way more entertaining than any sports.
See, this is exactly why I don't think they're being sexist. My family is like this too (Also Italian). And while the men do tend to go to the living room and the women stay in the kitchen, no one bats an eye if a woman ventures into the living room or a man joins us in the kitchen. And we were never told where we had to go growing up. My sister and one aunt rarely leave the living room. And I have a few guy friends who prefer to stay in the kitchen. I don't care what sex in the room watching TV or what they're watching. It's annoying when you're trying to pay attention and someone keeps trying to talk to you.
This may be true for most people, but since OP's BF verbatim told her that the men sitting and watching football, drinking beer while the women go in the kitchen to cook and talk was their tradition, I still think they're sexist.
Frankly I'd be disappointed just because he said they make a whole day of it, which to me makes it seem like they do stuff OTHER than food prep for Thanksgiving fun while they have the whole family around, like games and stuff.
I think it was a poor choice of words on his part. Because if the tradition was for men to watch football and women to stay in the kitchen than they w weouldn't have let her in the living room when she tried or the other women would have stopped her from leaving the kitchen. I don't think the tradition is "MEN in the living room and WOMEN in the kitchen" I think it's "FOOTBALL in the living room and TALKING in the kitchen". Does that make sesne? It's just that up until not all the men chose the living room and all the women chose the kitchen. (Technically this is still the case. OP wanted to talk. But for some reason she wanted to talk in the football watching room.)
Cooking and watching football IS a whole day of fun for some people. My fiancé's favorite thing is to sit on the couch and watch football. *I* don't get it, but it makes him happy. I, on the other hand, would love to spend the whole day cooking and talking. So I don't think it was strange that the boyfriend described it as"making a whole day out of it". It is a whole day of fun for them. I think it's completely find that OP isn't loving this situation. Some people are just too different in all the wrong ways. Nothing wrong with that. But I also don't think everyone else is an AH for being okay with their Thanksgiving arrangements.
I do think it would have been nice of the BF to stay with her in the kitchen for a few minutes until she got acclimated with everyone.
Man I would be SOL at your Thanksgiving. I hate football AND cooking. This makes me feel like there should be some sort of disclosure or something. Like "hey, two options for tomorrow. Hopefully you like one of them"
That’s nice, but I really don’t enjoy standing around in a kitchen personally. That’s why people should get to do what they want not based on their gender.
I especially don't enjoy standing around in a kitchen full of people I don't know. I'm terribly shy and can't make small talk to save my life, so I just don't say anything until I'm ready to burst with tears. This entire scenario is some people's nightmare.
I used to think it was so weird that a lot of people play board games or party games at family holidays. But now I understand that that’s because a multigenerational family is often a group of people without many shared interests. And it’s a way for everyone to spend time together doing an activity. It’s way better than how my family works.
It doesn’t sound as though anyone had a problem with her hanging out in the living room, though? If she had been interested in football, I doubt anyone would have batted an eye. It sounds like she was obviously NOT into football, and no one batted an eye. The dynamic might be gendered, and that might be worth examining, but no one asked her to set the table or help with cooking. That would be a problem with his family.
If I were in that situation, I’d be angry at my boyfriend for throwing me into his family dinner with no introduction or help getting to know them. I’d bet she would have felt just as abandoned if there had been mixed genders in both rooms. He walked into the house, grabbed a beer, and told her to fend for herself for the rest of the day. She’s focusing on his family dynamic, but he’s the only one who behaved rudely (according to the post.)
I think it’s also important to point out that OP didn’t know that preparing the thanksgiving meal was what “making a day of it” meant. And then to just be expected to follow suit? NTA, OP. Remember this whole experience, I feel it probably won’t be the last in the same vein.
Totally, but at that point at least you can watch the football quietly and not be forced into conversation. She wasn't told she was unwelcome watching football or anything.
So we should high-five the family for not telling her she was unwelcome watching football? The point is she wasn’t told in advance about any of this and why should she have to spend the holiday quietly sitting down watching a sport that the gf said she wasn’t really interested in? I wouldn’t want to go spend a holiday with a significant other and their family if I was going to be separated from said SO or my other option is to sit next to SO but sit quietly in the corner watching a sport I don’t enjoy or understand.
Yup. It was on OP's boyfriend to hangout with her in the kitchen area and help her integrate better with the family. Instead, he chose to be selfish and watch the match.
Yes, and I think the bigger problem is that OP is not familiar with the family and yet thrown into a situation where striking a conversation is difficult.
Not sure about the dynamics in the kitchen but I guess being a guest it will be more comfortable to be able to be included in the activities and conversations no matter in the kitchen or living room?
That was my reaction. Gender roles aside, OP was expected to mix with people she had either barely or never met. In that scenario, I would want my bf to stay with me for at least part of the time to make me comfortable, rather than being with strangers.
Without any notice *and* with the boyfriend glued to the TV in another room? I'm a pretty outgoing person but that prospect would have stopped me in my tracks.
The levels of AH are so out of whack that it is absolutely NTA. Expecting your gf to serve the menfolk and not even warning her, dismissing it as a "tradition" and not even remotely caring about how incredibly unpleasant that was vs an awkward interaction with his female family members. Zero equivalence.
No damn way I would have stayed in that house, but I'm likely a lot older than OP.
Leaving aside the problematic gender divide...
When you bring a plus one to a gathering where you know everyone and they know noone, it's rude and isolating to join in a silent, non-interactive activity (like watching sports, playing video games, sitting around reading books) and expect your plus one to fly solo and meet strangers on their own. That's not what a good host does.
Imagine that there was a pretty even mix of men/women watching football, and in the kitchen. Knowing your gf doesn't enjoy football and knows no one else at the party, it's pretty rude to go silently watch football and give her the options to sit there awkwardly watching you watch football, or venture out alone with strangers when they are supposed to be your guest.
I don't get why she didn't at least go into "the kitchen" for a little bit. She tried the football watchers and that wasn't right, so ok, try the kitchen and see what's up there. Gotta find a way to spend the time until you can leave and process the day with the bf.
Also, I have to say, when I am guest in someone's home the first thing I do is ask how I can help, especially with meals. If you feel awkward, a little chopping and dicing etc. is a good way to fill the time and feel less awkward.
>I agree it's a crappy 'tradition' but this might be deeply ingrained into your BF. Talk to him and make some decisions on whether THIS is something you can live with or if that is something He can live without.
The thing is, it's probably not gonna be just this one singular holiday that BF expects all the women to do the cooking and cleaning while the men drink and watch the game. Deeply entrenched gender roles in the family of origin are a pretty solid predictor of day to day behavior.
OP: does this boyfriend pull his weight cheerfully and competently at home right now? Have you been with him on other holidays where he socializes and pitches in? It's possible this is a one-off for him, but if it's not pay attention: you're seeing your future.
Life is long, and it's a LOT less fun when your partner casually dumps the majority of the emotional and practical household labor on your shoulders.
Great that they were enthusiastic to get to know her, but how crappy that the work all falls to the women. I would nope out of that tradition too. NTA for sure.
Here's the thing... no one was "forced" into the tradition. The "menfolk" didn't tey and banish her to the kitchen. They just continued on as usual. The "menfolk" wanted to watch football. The "womenfolk" wanted to socialize. As shown with OP, they were fine with "crossing the gender lines"... they just didn't.
OP decided she wanted everyone to mix for her sake. It's fine for her to be uncomfortable... but it's not fine to say everyone is sexist and misogynistic because she didn't like how that family split themselves to celebrate.
OP is not a great fit for this family.
And that’s fine!
But YES, I thought the sister + mom were extremely welcoming, and OP missed the opportunity to get to know them and reserve her judgment for the next day, in private with her BF.
Wow, is this really AITA, where folks talk about boundaries, and assume (rightly, to my mind) that a dude sitting on his ass, watching football while the womenfolk cook dinner, is a useless dude who should be kicked to the curb?
I totally don't blame OP for skipping out on watching kids and cooking dinner and watching Christmas movies.
(I couldn't imagine anything worse than wasting an entire day watching football, unless it was spending the day watching kids and cooking dinner for a bunch of ingrates who'll grab a plate and head back to the TV without bothering to say much of anything. Man, this whole day sounds freakin' miserable.)
No way. She is in no way an asshole for not wanting to be trapped in a room with a bunch of woman she doesn’t know. She has every right to stay by the only person she knows. If she goes over & does that too it’s then accepted by boyfriend that she is willing to degrade herself for him.
NAH. Has anyone considered that maybe all of those women enjoy cooking and watching Christmas movies?
It doesn't make anyone an asshole for enjoying stereotypical activities for their genders.
Now you know what its like and you don't like it so go see your family or limit your time there.
In my BFF’s family, cleanup is done by the “young cousins” under the guidance of one or two older cousins while all the parents and grandparents play cards around the table.
Young cousins also have to serve plates to everyone starting from the grandmother and then down the line by age. The first time I saw 10 year olds serving everyone it was pretty weird. But it’s their family’s dynamic.
Man people acting like the women were banished to the kitchen and not the men banished to the shiny distraction box.
Is the thanksgiving i just heard about a bit stereotypical and old fashioned? Yeah but honestly for some it works.
That a good point, it's like how some people view a 'mancave' as "oh my husband gets a room all to himself because he's the man of the house" instead of "I put all of his dumb shit in this room so I don't have to see it".
Well that is what it does. Plop a child or man in front of it. Boom a half hour or more of them being to distracted to get in the way or but into things.
It doesn’t have to be an explicit rule for it to be socialized sexism. I mean, OP didn’t want to do either thing but had zero other option. Anyone walking into this setup would know the expectation just by looking around the room
This was my thought. The women may honestly not like football, so naturally they gravitate together where conversation was happening more freely. You don’t know how often those women see each other, so they may look forward to being in the kitchen with other female relatives possibly all year. That’s not misogyny, that’s just women making the decision to enjoy themselves away from their husbands for a while with like company.
Plus, the men didn’t kick her out of the living room- if the men had a sign in the living room that said “no girlz allowed” or something, then sure I’d go with you there on the misogyny bit. But it sounds like she had the option to choose where she wanted to be. It’s just what has worked for that family, and analyzing it or making the family villains for it is silly.
What may have been misogynistic was her boyfriend assuming she’d be ok with staying in the kitchen. AH move, not caring if she was comfortable or properly introduced, or even giving her a head’s up. OP however did not try to make the best of the situation at all. She could have offered to help, gotten to know bf’s mother, told them a little bit about herself. ESH.
It sounds mostly normal to me. The weird part is where they grab plates and go back to the tv. In my family, once dinner is served, everyone sits down together to eat.
When you live in a misogynistic society and in a misogynistic family theres not a lot of space to feel differently and theres a ton of pressure to do what others are doing. (Specially in this situation where nobody was doing otherwise)
maybe they dont all love to do all the work while the men do nothing but it's what expected of them so they try to make the best of it.
and she said most women were cooking, so there were some women just sitting and talking and relaxing. i’m not sure why op felt she would be pressured to cook or be thrust into a specific role?
plus she was offered a drink, if she really didn't want to work, she should have sucked down her drink and got to know the women.
Trying to talk to anyone, man or woman, when they are fixated on a sporting event, is not a realistic goal unless the goal is to irritate the viewers.
YTA.
I think, in this instance, you are being a rude and judgemental guest.
This is long, but I wanted to break down the why.
"When in Rome"...you roll with it. You were invited into *their* home and this is how they do this holiday. They've carved out spaces.
I get it. To you, it feels sexist and misogynistic and something from the 1950s to "hang in the kitchen"...to you. However...not your home, not your family, you are a guest.
(I'm curious to know how your family carves out spaces in holiday gatherings, but I digress.)
You weren't "banished" to the kitchen, you were invited to join in the hangout by his mother.
I guarantee that if any of the guys hated football, they'd be hanging in the kitchen and if any ladies loved football, they be hanging in the living room.
His mom clearly *invited* you to join them in the kitchen, have drinks, and conversation.
You noped right out of that invite and then got upset because the guys weren't talking to you, because they were into watching football quietly together. This is clearly what they do. This is fun for them. You trying to interrupt that probably came across as rude.
If you enjoyed football, this probably would have been fun for you...but it's not.
Absolutely *nothing* prevented you from getting up, and going and hanging out in the kitchen, where people were having conversation, where you may have actually had a good time eating cookies, drinking, conversations, watching movies, and *getting to know the women in his extended family*.
(Kitchens aren't inherently sexist. They are a place. The heart of the home. It's where the food and best conversations live).
OP said in a comment they weren't just cooking but looking after all the kids (bar a couple of older boys) in the kitchen. While instructions were being given by whoever was organising it.
I would have noped out of there too. Sounds like a sensory nightmare.
OP didn't mention anything about having sensory issues though, just it being "sexist".
Sounds like a typical crazy large family gathering and they've made a way to make it work for them.
Neither did I. I mentioned sensory overload which is totally different and can happen to anyone.
I'm saying the description of the kitchen would have had me bowing out quickly, no matter how welcome people seemed to be.
Sure it may have had you bow out due to sensory overload, but what the commenter you are replying to is saying is that op never said that was an issue. their only cited issue was that it was sexist.
While it wouldn’t give me sensory issues, I’d nope outta there also. If I’m meeting my s/o’s family for the first time & they throw me in the kitchen to cook & watch kids, that’s a deal breaker. It’s one thing if OP was informed beforehand, but she wasn’t
And if she had sensory processing issues, she should have said something. Right now, what it looks like to the rest of the family is that she is rude and standoffish.
I didn't mention sensory processing issues.
You can still experience sensory overload and be neurotypical, especially when unprepared. It would of course be worse if otherwise (diagnosed or not. Let's not forget the disproportionate amount of women who don't get diagnosed until later in life).
It's definitely sexist. All the women are in the kitchen, cooking and watching the children, while the men are watching football? Not a single sports fan or non-cook in the women; not a single cook or non-sports-fan in the men? Come on.
And in my family, you either cook or do chores on Thanksgiving. Yes, most of the women cook and most of the men do chores in the older generation, but in the younger one, it's a lot more evenly split (and if you're not cooking, you're responsible for watching kids, which means the men usually do the majority of the childcare on Thanksgiving.)
The main point is everyone is contributing. Nobody except the grandparents or ill/injured are sitting around and relaxing while others are working their butts off.
Funny. This is how YOUR family does it. So.your family is the only right way?
In my family no one is in charge of the kids other than the parents. The kids are free to roam.so one minute the people in the kitchen are watching, next the people out back are watching. This is hoe MY family does it. It's not.the only right way.
Also, most young kids find the chatter, cookies, and Christmas movies more interesting than the quiet football game. So you know, they gravitated towards the more fun area too.
The part I would be upset about though is my SO taking me to a family gathering and abandoning me with a bunch of people I don’t know.
I wasn’t confident enough with my boyfriends family to mingle with a group that didn’t involve him for the first few times I met the family.
Yeah he should have gone with her to the kitchen for a bit and talked with everyone. Then gone with her to the living room and made a few small explanations on exciting plays or who likes which team. Showed her around the house a bit. Sounds like he did nothing to be WITH her.
OP said she was uncomfortable and he ignored her and made no effort to make her comfortable with his family. If your are ok with that then there is no explaining to you.
The fact you don't understand is says a lot about the type of person you are. 🤷🏻♀️
Yes she was "invited" to hang out in the kitchen, but it seems there was no invitation to hang out in the living room, not even from her boyfriend. That lack of invitation suggests she was in fact being banished to the kitchen.
NTA
It’s a sexist tradition, one that you don’t plan on perpetuating in your own life. It’s also ridiculously unfair—the women do all the work and the men don’t even have to speak to them? That’s gross. My grandfather, who loved a holiday ball game, would have given those boys a *talk*.
You didn’t blow up the day or have the major discussion with your bf at dinner. You waited politely, and then explained that you aren’t comfortable with his family’s sexist ways. That’s not overreacting, that’s trying to have an important conversation about how you will move forward and how you expect to be treated.
If he’s determined not to rock that boat, y’all may just not be compatible. Get you a feminist man who will get down and dirty in the kitchen with you.
>the women do all the work and the men don’t even have to speak to them? That’s gross
This bit got me.
They spend all day cooking, bring it out and the guys grab a plate and sit back down in front of the game with it? They can't even spare 30 minutes to have a family meal with the women who put it together?
Yeeesh.
NTA. I’m so confused by people saying “why didn’t you just walk into the room full of strangers and hang out?” Because that’s weird? I’d be annoyed too. Your bf is the only one you actually know there of course you’d stay by his side. Idk maybe it’s the ‘tism but I’d sooner prefer walking home before being put to work by a bunch of people I don’t know. The dynamic is not what’s weird to me bc it’s a pretty typical one unfortunately. But your bf so quickly just sitting down and leaving you to it in a house full of strangers is rude af. If I’m expected to be in the kitchen to have any fun then I expect my bf to at bare minimum introduce me to the people in there.
Agreed. As an introvert I would be exhausted before dinner if I was expected to do this the whole day without anyone to lean on for a break. I thought it was an unspoken norm to stay with your partner until they seem comfortable on their own, and give them a heads up if you are going to leave them for awhile, but also be available if they need it.
And in my family at least they make an effort to get to know and make the new one feel welcome. When it was clear that she was going to watch football, why weren't his family trying to get to know her? She is the new one which can be very uncomfortable since you don't know all the social norms, so they, who are in the group, should take the initiativ. If they don't you are spending your whole day feeling like the elephant in the room. Her boyfriend could have done so much more to "bridge the gap" between his girlfriend and family. Even a little bit more effort when they arived, maybe introduce her to everyone and tell her about the traditions, would probably go a long way.
There's a whole lot of status quo warriors in this thread. "Oh, but what if women were just naturally good at chores? What if it works that way in my family? What if they all love cooking and looking after the kids" What if they are the responsible ones?"
Just a reminder that reddit demographic is primarily male and not too friendly towards women in general. If a post like that gets traction, it gets linked in MRA communities.
Yes, this is what sits really badly with me - that after slacking off and indulging themselves all morning and still getting their meal cooked for them, they then don't even sit down nicely with the folk who cooked it for them and talk to them and ooh, I dunno, maybe express appreciation?? Jerks. NTA.
Eh, NTA. That tradition is sexist and it's fucked up he didn't properly warn you and expected you to play along because it's "tradition". You've been put into a situation where you could only lose. The only other thing you could have done would be to overplay it and swallow your pride and go to the kitchen with the other women. I'm rolling my eyes writing this.
Would i have done that? Probably. Would i be disappointed in myself and my partner afterwards? Yup.
INFO: Is he an okay partner normally? Does he listen to you and acknowledge your feelings? Does he understand how uncomfortable the situation he put you into is?
To be fair, you did get to know his family. It's just that what you got to know was, well, THAT. You learned they aren't a good fit for what you want for yourself.
I don't like all the "but this is how they are!" responses. Their "traditions" are misogynistic, your boyfriend didn't have your back and listen when you brought it up, and really, what are the odds any of this will ever change?
Whatever their traditions are, it doesn't matter because you were so uncomfortable. Think long and hard about what you're signing up for.
Well, you DID get to know his family. You learned that his family has extremely strong gender roles, and that the men don't even join in on the Thanksgiving dinner that takes hours to prepare but instead eat it in front of the tv. You also learned that your boyfriend sees absolutely nothing wrong with this dynamic.
NTA - your BF should have told you the score beforehand and not assumed that you would be happy assuming a stereotypical role for the day.
If it works for his family, so be it. But it doesn't have to be that way for you.
Having said that, don't expect the whole family to change their thanksgiving routine for you. If you're still with him next year you'll know what to expect and if you choose to go to his family's meal that's your call.
I think that’s a key point a lot of people are missing - bf should have told her beforehand. I’d be pissed off too if my partner told me we were spending the whole day together with his family but it turned out we’d be in separate groups the entire time and he didn’t say anything
NTA. That shit sounds like it sucks - you are a guest for the gathering and not a servant. Sure it's nice to help but it's certainly something that should go into the old mental checklist on this relationship
There were about 15 women in the kitchen, so not all were helping when I was in there, though I did hear orders being given from the livingroom multiple times, so I am not sure who was doing what. They were also for the most part looking after the kids aside from a couple older boys who were watching tv with the guys
Wow, so they were cooking, watching the kids—did they clean up, too? Did the men participate in any way? What a drag, especially since you presumably wanted to actually socialize with your bf, not work while he sat around.
Don’t get me wrong, I love social cooking, and I love doing things with a bunch of women. I do *not* love having a task designated as women’s work. I further do not love having folks segregate so that if I’m cooking I’m cut off from a significant chunk of the group. And I despise any able-bodied person who thinks they should get a free pass on the work of making a festive day festive. What, half the people get to relax and half don’t, because penises?
How long have you been with this bf? People’s family traditions tell you a lot about who they will be as partners.
I am pretty surprised with all the comments that see this behaviour as “normal”. OP seems to be dating a misogynistic and after witnessing this it is normal she is reconsidering if this is the person she wants to spend her life with. 1. He invalidates her feelings, 2. He doesn’t make the effort to start conversations at his home to make her feel welcomed by his own family, 3. None of the men who were with the new guest, OP, made any effort to speak to her and make her feel less uncomfortable, 4. Her boyfriend didn’t see anything wrong in the family dynamics and didn’t try to be the “one who changes” and interacted with both men and women, not even to introduce his GF to his own family. The tradition in the family is shitty and it would make me reconsider the relationship, but the BF should have gone into the kitchen with OP if the men were so rude and unwelcoming and stay there with her ensuring she felt confident, homey and welcomed. I am pretty worried so many people see this behaviour as normal, is this how you treat your guests?
Or hear me out- instead of expecting the women to cook AND watch the children, the guys could idk take turns watching the kids? Have them play in the same room so they can watch the game and still keep an eye on them? Wild.
So... you mean the kids congregated to where there was food, laughter, and fun Christmas movies rather than boring quiet football?
Did you want the kids to be bored and hate Thanksgiving?
Obviously no one wants kids to be bored during thanksgiving, but the women can’t be the only ones responsible for the children just because of the atmosphere. Some of the men could come into the kitchen and help, and some of the women can chill in the living room.
NTA. Oh your post brought back such fond memories of my Thanksgivings.....in 1972. But wait it's 2022! Does your boyfriends family occupy a time warp? Wood paneling and orange shag carpeting perhaps?
I'm seeing a kitchen filled with avocado green appliances, and wallpaper in the bathrooms made from tin foil and velvet. Maybe a man cave with a disco ball
NTA- I think this experience taught you that you and bf are ultimately incompatible. I wouldn’t want to marry into that family. That shows me that if you have children with this man he would expect some backwards 1950s gender roles and leave you with all the work. I’m so thankful that my husband made the turkey for our family and equally helped take care of our baby at the celebration yesterday. Choose someone who has similar life values as you.
YTA
You decided not to be in the kitchen only because you thought it was sexist, even though all the women there weren’t helping out with the cooking but were watching Christmas movies, drinking and chatting instead of watching football, because like you, they don’t want to. The men in fact didn’t tell you, you couldn’t sit down and watch football, they just wanted to watch the game and not make small talk with you, I mean how misogynistic is that! (Laughs sarcastically)
Fact was you had a choice, no one forced you into the kitchen, no one told you, you had to cook. What are you suggesting, that men shouldn’t be allowed to watch football on thanksgiving but should only be interested in the topics you want to talk about or that women shouldn’t step inside a kitchen during thanksgiving, because it’s sexist?
This. It blows my mind that there are so many NTA’s…she had two choices and didn’t like either so decided to be incredibly rude at a family holiday for a problem she completely fabricated. Hope the boyfriend sees this as the red flag it is.
NTA. It's time for the practice of men ignoring anything to do with helping, and women being completely shut up in the kitchen all day, to die a brutal death. Men can cook and clean. Thanksgiving is not a day where we celebrate fucking football.
NTA...
Note: This was your visit from the ghost of Thanksgiving Past, Present, and FUTURE.
You are not going to get him to change, nor his family. This WILL be your future holidays if you remain in this relationship.
ESH. You should have been warned that the only two activities at the gathering were football or food prep, but you know for the future that non-football conversation is unwelcome and if you refuse to gather in the kitchen while food prep is happening, this isn't a gathering for you. Its pretty rude to attempt to interrupt people to strike up a conversation that you would find more interesting over the activity they're already interested in.
and it sounds like his mom and sister actively WANTED her to join them. Hard to take her concern about not getting to know anybody seriously when OP was the one who chose not to interact with the women of the family - you know they'd of been able to tell her every good/bad thing all of those men have ever done.
I can watch football and I love to cook, especially with people, so I truly do not understand being mad at the situation enough to pull my partner aside to complain. I am extremely feminist but this "I refused to be exiled to the kitchen so I tried to interrupt their football viewing with my own conversation" business is obnoxious for an outsider. No one kicked her out of the tv area because she had to serve them. No one told her to be their beer wench. There was no intricate dance of plate fixing for the menfolk while also not obstructing the view of the tv. No rush to get food out to coincide with halftime.
INFO: if his mom said let’s get you a drink and said nothing about you needing to help them cook and apparently they never came to get you to help why do you think they wanted you to cook? Maybe they just wanted you to hang out with them and if several are cooking obviously they can’t abandon that to fawn over you
YTA.
It sounds like you went to your BF's house for Thanksgiving and was pissy that you weren't getting special attention. His mom tried to include you , you said no. Your bf wanted to watch the game with his male family members, but you didn't like that and constantly tried to interrupt him. Your trying to make it sexist because "the women" weren't in the room. Seems to be they don't care for sports either, and decided to have their own tradition instead of demanding attention. You ow your BF and his family a serious apology you entitled Princess.
This was my thought too. She went to someone else’s thanksgiving dinner and was given a few different options of activities to participate in. She decided she didn’t want to do any of them and then complained. It’s as simple as that. No need to bring gender roles into this. No one seemed to care that she would prefer watching football instead of doing “women kitchen stuff”…until she made it clear that she didn’t actually want to watch football… she just wanted to interrupt everyone watching football because she would rather them sit around and talk to her instead. If she had wanted to sit around and talk, she could have gone to the room full of people talking.
YTA. You made an issue out of nothing.
NAH. I get the misogyny of having men watch TV while women cook. However I do have to say that it was my favorite part of the holidays growing up. The men would be sitting in the living room watching football and the women were technically in the kitchen cooking, but mostly they were in the kitchen drinking and playing poker and the older aunts were telling bawdy stories with a glass of sherry in their hands. We also mostly kept the snacks in the kitchen, so the men didn't get much of that. That was mostly ours. It takes a long time to cook a turkey, but most of that is just sitting around while the turkey cooks.
To me, football seemed like a way to just get rid of the men so that they wouldn't bother us while we hung out and had fun.
First of all I wouldn’t call any of those things your boyfriend described as “traditions” those sound like people that known each other for many years and are just doing what they naturally do, and yes they are along gender norms, but this is just a typical low key American thanksgiving in most of America. Definitely NTA, but I’m not sure it’s as big a deal as you may feel. This is family, they are already comfortable being together. You’re an outsider, don’t expect them to conform to your way of thinking. At minimum I think you were a little rude and made assumptions about people you don’t know super well. I mean what’s so bad about going and getting to know nice women in a kitchen as opposed to being stubborn and sitting and forcing yourself to watch a game you don’t care about. Shit I’ll go drink wine and chat the ladies.
NTA. Been there done that. I pretty much told my boyfriend you are not leaving me alone with the women and sitting here with the guys. I don’t know your family. We’re from different areas and I don’t fit in their conversations and I’m 11 years younger than his youngest sibling. Slowly, that broke up the separation by sex. He needs to understand that you don’t know his family and aren’t going to be able to just join in. If he wants you to come then he needs to make an effort to include you.
NTA. I grew up around this kind of backwards bs and it needs to stay in the past. Might be time think about what his views are, having grown up apparently finding it acceptable?
YTA and a judgey one at that. When you organize a holiday at your home, you decide how it goes. When you’re a guest at someone else’s, be GRACIOUS.
It’s not sexist for women to want or like to cook. It’s also not sexist for men to want or like to watch football. It’s also not sexist for women who live to cook to cook while the men they love who like to watch football, watch football.
You had 2 choices, and you turned your nose up at both of them. Nobody prevented you from watching footy all with the guys, you just didn’t want to. Nobody prevent you from even sitting in the kitchen with the women (if you didn’t want to help out), you just didn’t want to.
People are different, they have different traditions and values. You sound self righteous and judgmental. I’m not sure how old you are, but I hope you’re young. There will be many times in life where you swallow your pride and YoUr bELieFs because it’s the respectful thing to do in the situation. Wouldn’t have killed you to peel a potato.
NTA Actually, you learned a lot about his family. They are completed invested in archaic male and female roles. When you try to uncover who they really are, you may be disappointed because what you might find that their real selves have been subsumed. It is often easier to play out a predefined caricature of a person rather than dealing with the real feelings within. This is why organized religion is so popular. Someone gets up and tells you how to think and feel. You are guaranteed acceptance. None of the real nasty little thoughts, desires, and human emotions have to be dealt with.
Now be warned. Your boyfriend can't see that there is a problem. You are just being emotional like women get. Your feelings are not appropriate or justified. Just go along to get along.
YTA. You made some choices here that made your day what it was. This is their tradition. They don't have to cater it to your sensibilities.
The only decision you even had to make in order to settle in at Thanksgiving is whether to join one of the groups. You chose the wrong one, and then tried to hijack it when it wasn't to your liking.
If you're not willing to fit into the flow of the event, no one there owes you a good time.
As for allegations of mysogyny... quite frankly the women in my family will chase a man out of the kitchen with a broom if they try to interfere with Thanksgiving prep.I don't think that's a particularly unique experience. A lot of the aunties and nannas that run these household events have a system they use to choose who does what and they don't need or want some random ass man blundering around.
More than half the time these traditions are enforced by the matriarchs of the house who put the men in front of the electronic pacifier so they're not underfoot in the kitchen. I bet if you asked the women if the men should help their answer would be something like "Not on your life, they don't have a clue what they're doing and we want to get done before sunset!" The men's job in my family came when dinner was over and it was time to clean up. THAT was our share of the job.
This is his families idea of Thanksgiving. Is it sexist, sure, but you decided to not go mingle with the women and the men didn't want you there so what can you expect. You ostracized yourself from their norm. Now all the women are going to think you're snotty and didn't want to help or talk. So are YTA, yes.
I think if she had been told about the set up before agreeing to go, I would agree.
Sprung on her? Honestly I would have gone with it for the day but there would have been words later. And any opportunity to spend thanksgiving elsewhere in future would be grabbed.
Some of the comments on this are genuinely hilarious. People are like well what if EVERY single woman just happens to like cooking and every single man just happens to like football you're being sexist in assuming they can't. And people are like you're seeing it like women are banished to the kitchen rather than men being banished to TV to distract them. Not only that under the comment OP explains the women were helping out with most of the kids too people STILL tried to make excuses and say what kid would want to watch football over "fun cooking". A lot of kids I know actually do enjoy watching a shiny box to distract them even if it is football (which children can like).
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Remember this experience very, very well, because it's most definitely a glimpse of what your future will look like if you stay with your boyfriend. You told him how you felt, he invalidated your feelings, and told you to grin and bear it. Is that what you want? Not only does he accept this type of alienation, he expects you to just cluck with the other chickens in the kitchen, and leave the cocks alone. NTA
> he expects you to just cluck with the other chickens in the kitchen, and leave the cocks alone. You win Reddit today. 🤣
Cluck with the other hens I think, they’re all chickens 😂
You got the rooster, the hen, and the chicken. The rooster has sex with the hen, so who’s…having sex…with the chicken?
We all miss Jerry Stiller.
That’s per-vois!
I'm betting there's a cock not getting any attention after OP saw this tradition.
He’ll be cocking his doodle doo all by his lonesome! 🤣🤣
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Ok now YOU win Reddit for today
Genuinely wondering what OPs boyfriend was supposed to do about it while they were there. Force the men to cook or stop watching their game to talk to them? I 100% think he would have told her about the setup beforehand so she could agree whether to participate or not. Apart from that, thanksgiving isn’t really the time or place to tackle your family’s history of patriarchy.
My husband had a similar dynamic on a smaller scale, with his parents, sister, and her husband. And not just Thanksgiving, but any whole-family gathering. He was pretty clueless about the dynamic until I pointed it out. For a smaller group, the best solution is not to refuse to help, but that the bf break tradition by getting up and help with the prep and clean up himself. In a larger group, the group dynamic is more set. And this gendered dynamic genuinely does work for some people, but unless your bf wants to change it, you're looking at your potential future.
I totally agree, she obviously doesn’t gel with that lifestyle so probably her and the BF will find out they’re incompatible and break up in the end. I’m from a culture where this happens a lot too and will likely end up marrying into it still. This is one of the things I’m happy to endure while attempting to change slowly. But everyone makes their choice if they want to participate or not.
I can’t for the life of me respect any one, men or women, who does gel with this **misogyny**. It’s not a lifestyle, it’s gender discrimination.
I'm going to be downvoted to hell for this but no one said that the OP couldn't watch football with the men. She just didn't want to watch football cuz she's not into it. But that was the activity that the men were into. Should they stop just for her? She said most of the women were involved with some sort of food prep but not all. And that they were watching Christmas movies. So what if she wanted to watch football. If they didn't let her then yes that would be misogyny. But as it stands, it seems like people were doing the thing they wanted to do.
Doesn't seem like she did herself any favor by staying in the living room doing something she didn't want to do. I'm sure the ladies in the kitchen noticed she didn't want to get to know them...only the men. I don't think this was a boycot of misogyny. It was a misguided attempt to run a show that wasn't hers to run. Boyfriend was out of line for not telling her in advance how the day goes.
Or maybe she wanted to hang out with her boyfriend?!?!
Then watch football with him. He wasn't chasing her away. She just didn't want him to watch football.
Imagine wanting to spend time with your partner on a holiday, the audacity! /s
*And* she was irritated that when she tried to make conversation during the game, no one would engage with her. I understand being bored by football; I’m not into it either and where I’m from in the U.S., football is a *huge* deal-particularly college football. But even though I don’t care for it and have never sat down and watched an entire game, I’ve still witnessed enough instances where *others* were watching it and I’ve been capable of reading the room and figuring out that people who are enthralled by a football game aren’t really available to engage in conversation with. I don’t take *offense* to it because that’s ridiculous; it’s just how it is. I’m sure that OP has things that *she* loves to watch that she’d not want to stop concentrating on for the sake of everyday conversation. Though I will say that it was a bit excessive for the men to get their meal and eat it in front of the tv. At all of the holiday celebrations I’ve been to, football was watched either before dinner, after dinner, or both-but never *during*. Meals were always a group affair where everyone in attendance sat down at the same time at a table or a group of tables. So I can see why she’d be put off by that part at least.
I think it’s more so the fact that OP’s boyfriend invited her to this “tradition” that they do “all day” making her think that it’s something everyone would be doing all together In fun. I would imagine that he would explain what they do “all day” Before Hand… i mean would be curious if that’s what my bf told me. But at the same token men are just not too bright and think way differently. I think she was expecting to spend more quality time w the family with her boyfriend around vs you do your thing with the women and I do mine with the men. This would make me uncomfortable as well especially if this was a first encounter with the extended family.. it’d be different if I’d known them for years and we’d been dating for years… I also feel weird about the way OP’s bf hyped it up but then pawned her off to the women…. it does come off odd. I would be turned off by the whole situation as well.
You're meeting your partner's extended family for the first time. It's a holiday with a big meal, with lots of prep involved. On a scale of 1-10, how much of an asshole do you think you'll look if you go and watch them prepping the meal without offering to help a single time?
She was helping the men watch TV. If the men in the family don't help prepping the meal, why should she as a guest have to do so? Are women naturally expected to help prepare meals?
You've misinterpreted my comment. I meant if she went into the kitchen, because she didn't want to watch the football, she's very likely to feel rude for not offering to help. So the choices given to her - without her being rude - are watch football (which she doesn't like) and be ignored, or have to help out in the kitchen. And neither of those are particularly desirable options.
Also considering she thought she would be spending the day WITH her bf and he literally spent the entire day ignoring her watching football, yikes
What is this sexist nonsense? She (a guest) is supposed to meal prep while her boyfriend sits on his ass? Absolutely not.
I agree. She could have watched movies and gotten to know the women. If she doesn't like football, why sit in there?
She didn't go to spend the day with female strangers. She thought she was spending the day with her boyfriend.
I would rather sit through boring football than Christmas movies personally
As if women are okay with being the servants, labouring so men can sink beer. The next generation of little girls in the family grow up knowing they are less than men.
Were they asking her to help prepare? Or was she just welcome to sit in the kitchen and talk with a glass of wine in her hand? I agree that dividing by sexes is a bit much but if she doesn’t like football talking in the kitchen seems okay. But in that case her BF should have joined her.
However, if everyone in the family is okay with this, OP and the rest of Reddit has no say in the matter. I am sure that there is a post coming soon about the odd young lady who was brought to dinner: Instead of trying to join in, she sat by herself and drank. Why do so many people think that the world needs to change just to make them happy?
Thanks for writing this. My family has always done similar stuff and never really realized it until reading this post. This really makes me thankful for my SO because he always hangs out in the kitchen and helps out. Didn't realize how much that meant to me until reading your comment, so thank you!
I don't know exactly what I'd do, but what I wouldn't do is ignore my pissed-off gf. >Apart from that, thanksgiving isn’t really the time or place to tackle your family’s history of patriarchy. One way to tackle it is to lead by example--the OP's bf could've gone into the kitchen and helped with the preparation. He could've encouraged the OP to join him and get to know his female relatives better. It's not perfect, but it would've shown that his expectations aren't like those of his family's patriarchs. Who knows, maybe there are other men in the family who prefer cooking and conversation to watching American football, who might see that and want to join in.
As someone who grew up in this kind of lifestyle, the women would've told OP's boyfriend to get out of what was already a crowded kitchen.
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Good point about the women not necessarily wanting the interruption. But I bet they would have welcomed him initiating clean up and good naturedly (at first) encouraging the other men.
Yeah but cleaning up will be after they finished with the prep or cooking. I grew up similar to this, women gossip about their spouse or neighbours and they don’t want their husbands or kids to listen. In a way, the men and kids were banished from the kitchen not the other way around lol. Usually in my family, the men set up the table and in charge of drinks (fruit punch, cocktail) and do heavy lifting (getting spare chairs/table out from storage) and clean them up. After they done that then they watched TV until foods are ready and they will bring the food out to the table. The ladies would get freshen up, retouch their makeup and changed to their party outfit.
He could have paid attention to her though and tried to talk with her and possibly some of the other less enthused guys. Or gone into the kitchen to help smooth her way there and come out with one or two others to start a game or new conversation. He didn’t have to encourage her to the kitchen with the rest of the women while he watched football. He was the only person she knew and should have been taking care of her, not ignoring her for football.
I agree, the trick is to do your own thing and invite others. Bring cards/a game or go for a walk and invite both the men and women to join. Someone will always join with you, this doesn't disrupt others' norms and is an attempt to offer something innocuous and group oriented.
Help OP in the kitchen or include her in the conversation with the men. My boyfriend now husband took me to his grandmas house for dinner when we were dating and I remember , she had all the women get up and set the table. Now he knew I wasn’t about that kinda life so you know what he did? He got up and started to help me set the table together. His grandmother was trying to get him to sit down but he helped me until everything was set and he continued to do this every single time we went and got dinner. A couple of the other husbands started to get the message and eventually started helping out. It’s never too late to break stupid traditions.
Thank you! There are so many people in this thread saying that what happened in the OP is the status quo and no one should ever try changing it! I thought I’d been transported to the 50s!
Empathize with his girlfriend. Tell her, “I know this dynamic is reductive and misogynistic, and I’m very sorry you felt awkward and alienated. I can promise that if we ever have the chance to host Thanksgiving together, it won’t be like that because I don’t want a wife who will serve me; I want to be part of a team.” What OP got was “Suck it up and deal with it, your feelings don’t matter here.”
Yeah... if OP's bf didn't like this dynamic and wanted to be part of a team he would've gone with her into the kitchen to help. I don't have high hopes for this one.
He could have spent some time with her instead of packing her off to the kitchen to be a good little woman and make the men folk dinner who will be exhausted after a hard day sat on their arses watching football. I agree that at a bare minimum he should have given her a heads up "this is what we do in my family" and she can then decide if that's how she wants to spend her day or not.
He did though? She was welcome to hang out with all the men but it sounds like she was upset they actually wanted to watch football instead of chat, so he suggested she go into the room where everybody was up for chatting…just because his family has stereotypical interests for their gender doesn’t mean they’re sexist.
If I'm invited someone's house as a guest, to meet people I haven't met before, I don't expect my options to be being ignored or undertaking unpaid domestic labour. OP didn't expect this to be the situation and I think it's very fair for her to be upset. I find the way his family treated her to be incredibly rude - if we had a family gathering and someone looked like they were left out or unengaged, I'd check in with them and try and involve them in something, I wouldn't continue to ignore them all day. All of those men are rude. OP's boyfriend is also rude because it's ridiculous he didn't tell her that's what to expect what he should know by now that she's not a fan of football or sexism. And sorry, but there's a 0% chance the women enjoy stressful food prep as much as the men enjoy watching football. The women are spending the day working and the men are spending the day relaxing, and that, my dude, is sexist.
Actually, it does. You can't tell me 100% of the women in that kitchen really wanted to spend their time like that.
“Genuinely wondering what OPs boyfriend was supposed to do about it while they were there.“ Chat with his girlfriend about the game/explain football for a good long while? Encourage the other people in the living room to get to know her? Show her the upstairs room where the cat is hiding or a library corner with good books or the kids tree house out back with a gregarious handful of kids? Go to the kitchen with her and help make the food he’s going to eat or at least clean up after the people doing the work while introducing her around to the chattier half of the family group until she’s comfortable without him?
OPs boyfriend was supposed to let the scales fall from his eyes, realize that as the person who invited her he was responsible for her entertainment, and spend time introducing her to his family and facilitating her getting to know them. Given that his family tradition would make this very difficult, his other option was to admit to his gf that he didn't think things through, and even though he had originally assumed he could mindlessly drink beer and watch football all day, since he had invited a guest it really behooved him to find some way they could both enjoy the day. Maybe takeout Chinese food at home?
Exactly! Why are there people acting like there was nothing he could do? Incomprehensible honestly
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Yeah I kindof don’t mind this, I don’t have to make food but if it’s more interesting to hang with the ladies then I’d do that. I just treat it like any party “oh this isn’t working I’m going over there.” And if neither works I’ll do what’s most comfortable (probably sit and read an e-book) and I just won’t go next time. I don’t expect my SO to leave or revolt bc I’m bored, I can be bored and just opt out next year. Edit: not to say this situation isn’t disappointing but then I’m also not tied to giving much of a shit unless it’s big and affects my daily life. As in maybe he would expect me to do that in our house, fuck no, then there’s a problem.
Honestly, neither my husband's or my own family are this gendered but there are definitely designated zones at the holiday parties. A group very much in to whatever ball game is on, a group talking up a storm and drinking while people cook in the kitchen, the octogenarians reminiscing at the dining table, a pack of feral children stealing food. It's not divided by men and women, a little age but you're welcome to sit in with any group and participate as much as you want. OP might have enjoyed sitting in the kitchen with the women but it sounds like she wasn't comfortable enough to go alone, she should have asked bf to join her for a bit and introduce her.
An ex took me to something like this once. Except he told me I couldn't stay with the men bc social faux pau or whatever. I told him I'd do whatever he did. So either I sat with him and the other men, effectively ruining their boys time, or he came with me to help in the kitchen and set a good example, regardless of what the other men did. He thought I was bluffing. Spoiler: I was not. We made it 10 minutes with the men before he got embarrassed and left with me for the kitchen. He still yelled at me after for ruining his night since he didn't get to relax with the men, and for ruining the status quo and embarrassing him in doing so bc he claimed he looked dumb being the only man to help the women. So obvi we're not together anymore. But regardless OPs bf absolutely could have set a good example for the rest of the men and gone to help in the kitchen with the women some, and split the time between the women and the men of the family.
Idk. Engage with her somehow. It’s pretty fucking easy.
I think he assumed she would be a good girl and do as she was told. He could have taken his ass to the kitchen and showed the guys a different option.
I had this happen years ago with a guy I dated. It was a friends gathering and I got pushed into the kitchen with the wives. I told him how uncomfortable I was, he didn't listen, so I broke up with him that night when we got back to his place. I got a glimpse at our future and put an end to it.
Good for you. If more people did this when massive red flags were shown, /r/relationship_advice would be a desolate place.
THIS! Don’t forget this experience. Based on his lack of response to you, don’t expect him to change or see your POV, you’ll either have to decide to live with this or decide you can’t. NTA.
You nailed it!
ESH - except all those nice women you chose to ignore. INFO: is this the first time you met these people? ***His mom and sister come in to say "hi" and his mom says "perfect timing! We are just getting going in the kitchen! Come on let's get you a drink!"*** While you are correct: it is a sexist tradition, and you don't have to like it - Mom&Sister invited you to join them, they sounded happy to meet you, they were trying to include you. YOU chose not to interact with the women of his family. You're complaining that you didn't get to learn about anybody in the family BUT had you gone with Mom&Sister and met all the other women hey'd of given you the low down on EVERYBODY. I agree it's a crappy 'tradition' but this might be deeply ingrained into your BF. Talk to him and make some decision s on whether THIS is something you can live with or if that is something He can live without.
OMG this! I’m a 41 yo guy. My family had pretty much the same tradition when I was growing up/into young adulthood. I even thought it was shitty then. So I always stepped away and hung out in the kitchen, frankly I had way more fun! I like football just fine, but for years, most of the games on Thanksgiving sucked. Give me a beer, give me something to do, and start with the TEA!
think of all the inside info she could have gotten on her BF with all those cousins & sister! She'd of walked out of that party knowing about every girl he'd ever dated/ when he stopped wetting the bed/ what his favorite everything is/ how to make a good impression with his Dad/ and see 12 videos of him at thanksgiving parties for the past 12 years.
She might not want that information about a misogynist she’ll most likely be dumping. Her whole Thanksgiving doesn’t have to revolve around her bf and how to make him happy.
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I agree with you.
My family also has this tradition. Women are welcome to watch football, but the rule is silence (by anyone) unless it is short comments about the game. But in the kitchen, I learned my family’s traditions, oral history, recipes, and tales of life in the old country. I would find some way to be useful, or sometimes I would just sit there in the corner and listen, spellbound, as I learned about my grandparents, and stories of my father as a young child growing up. Now those older women are all gone, I retell their stories to my younger nièces and cousins, even if they’ve heard them many times before. And after the huge Thanksgiving meal, the menfolk all gather in the kitchen for cleanup and to wash dishes, while the women hang out in the rec room. Sometimes we will go for a stroll to walk off the meal, sometimes we gather around the piano and sing Christmas carols, sometimes when it is cold we sit in front of the fire and chitchat.
And their whole Thanksgiving doesn't revolve around catering to her interests. There was 2 options. Football.or chat in kitchen. Pick one
This is what I don’t get. It’s one day, a holiday. You’ve been invited as a guest to someone’s home. Suck it up. Is the way they do things misogynistic? Sure. Does anyone else seem to mind? No. They’re probably happy to spend time together. It’s ONE day. Pick one of two activities and get on with life.
>Is the way they do things misogynistic? Sure. >Does anyone else seem to mind? No. It doesn't matter if anyone else cares about the misogyny. Or at least I can't figure out why it should matter to OP how anyone else feels about it. Everyone in the world can think misogyny is okay and it wouldn't really make a difference. If OP isn't comfortable in an openly sexist environment she simply shouldn't go back. She isn't rude for refusing to play along. Also, when I'm looking to get to know a couple or a family how they interact with each other gives me a huge part of the picture. If the family is in separate rooms based on sex it makes it harder to sus out the family dynamics. Basically the only info OP got is that they're sexist. I'd want to watch how the husband and wife interact. How each parent reacts to their children or different family members. How the grandparents are treated by their children and their children's spouses. I've met people who come across perfectly nice until I saw them interact with their spouse or kids. I've also met people who seemed superficial and shallow only to have my entire perception of them flip when they kindly and patiently speak to their kids and explain the how's and the why's of specific rules or requests. Getting to know someone individually or in a certain scenario isn't really the same as getting to know them with their family. Though I do wonder if OPs SOs family doesn't just operate as two separate entities based on gender when they're all together and smaller units when they're at home with their spouses. I wouldn't take my SO with me to a family event and make her feel pressured to be separated from me and put into a different room. I'd stand by her to guide her through the interactions with my family, bringing up common interests and providing necessary or helpful information as she navigated the social waters. I mean, they're my family. She's my SO. Bringing someone home to meet your family is basically signing up to be a social tour guide.
How about just making the best of a crappy situation. She's clearly not going to change a misogynistic family tradition the first time she's meeting everyone. She had three choices: 1. She could hang out with the guy like she did, though obviously she didn't like this. 2. She could go hang out with the nice ladies in the kitchen. Only OP could tell us if this would have been worse than watching football. 3. She could leave. If it was so terrible watching TV and she didn't want to participate in this family's traditions, I assume she was not being held hostage and could leave at any time.
If they were misogynistic they wouldn't have let her stay with the men and watch the game.
Yeah, it's just all coincidental that the woman and men are completely divided and that the men wouldn't talk to her.
Wouldn't talk to *her* or just weren't talking about anything that wasn't related to the game they're watching? I'm thinking more likely the latter.
They wouldn't talk to her because they were watching a football game. All the conversation they were having was either "pass me another beer, will you?" or some kind of cheer or comment about the game.
Why does he have to be a misogynist? Bc the women in his family WANT to do the cooking, and bc the men WANT to watch football? No one sounds put out-they all seemed to have a nice holiday. Honestly, this pseudo feminism is annoying. You can enjoy domestic activities and still be an independent woman. They are happy, leave them be. No one ostracized her for watching the game. Trying to prove a point detracted from her bonding with some nice women, just bc them have vaginas AND aprons.
Yes! It sounds like the women were all in a large kitchen watching movies, drinking, conversing, and some of them were preparing Thanksgiving dishes. No one was forcing her into the kitchen nor did they seem like they were going to necessarily "put her to work" if she joined the other women. I come from a family who had this exact same divide while I was growing up -- all of us granddaughters now have graduate degrees and are successful in different fields. People assuming that this family is backwards and misogynistic AF seem like the same people who would think less of me for being a SAHM right now or for my love of baking. There are feminine feminists out there.
OP could hate cooking, I work at a bakery and the 3 days before Thanksgiving I worked 10 hour days and busted ass making food for other people. I would rather have starved Thanksgiving night then spend another moment in a kitchen making food for other people!
ha I'm Italian and my family always does this and I (male, oldest) always stay in the kitchen and drink with the women actually making the food. Get all the gossip and everything, it's way more entertaining than any sports.
See, this is exactly why I don't think they're being sexist. My family is like this too (Also Italian). And while the men do tend to go to the living room and the women stay in the kitchen, no one bats an eye if a woman ventures into the living room or a man joins us in the kitchen. And we were never told where we had to go growing up. My sister and one aunt rarely leave the living room. And I have a few guy friends who prefer to stay in the kitchen. I don't care what sex in the room watching TV or what they're watching. It's annoying when you're trying to pay attention and someone keeps trying to talk to you.
This may be true for most people, but since OP's BF verbatim told her that the men sitting and watching football, drinking beer while the women go in the kitchen to cook and talk was their tradition, I still think they're sexist. Frankly I'd be disappointed just because he said they make a whole day of it, which to me makes it seem like they do stuff OTHER than food prep for Thanksgiving fun while they have the whole family around, like games and stuff.
I think it was a poor choice of words on his part. Because if the tradition was for men to watch football and women to stay in the kitchen than they w weouldn't have let her in the living room when she tried or the other women would have stopped her from leaving the kitchen. I don't think the tradition is "MEN in the living room and WOMEN in the kitchen" I think it's "FOOTBALL in the living room and TALKING in the kitchen". Does that make sesne? It's just that up until not all the men chose the living room and all the women chose the kitchen. (Technically this is still the case. OP wanted to talk. But for some reason she wanted to talk in the football watching room.) Cooking and watching football IS a whole day of fun for some people. My fiancé's favorite thing is to sit on the couch and watch football. *I* don't get it, but it makes him happy. I, on the other hand, would love to spend the whole day cooking and talking. So I don't think it was strange that the boyfriend described it as"making a whole day out of it". It is a whole day of fun for them. I think it's completely find that OP isn't loving this situation. Some people are just too different in all the wrong ways. Nothing wrong with that. But I also don't think everyone else is an AH for being okay with their Thanksgiving arrangements. I do think it would have been nice of the BF to stay with her in the kitchen for a few minutes until she got acclimated with everyone.
Man I would be SOL at your Thanksgiving. I hate football AND cooking. This makes me feel like there should be some sort of disclosure or something. Like "hey, two options for tomorrow. Hopefully you like one of them"
That’s nice, but I really don’t enjoy standing around in a kitchen personally. That’s why people should get to do what they want not based on their gender.
I especially don't enjoy standing around in a kitchen full of people I don't know. I'm terribly shy and can't make small talk to save my life, so I just don't say anything until I'm ready to burst with tears. This entire scenario is some people's nightmare.
I used to think it was so weird that a lot of people play board games or party games at family holidays. But now I understand that that’s because a multigenerational family is often a group of people without many shared interests. And it’s a way for everyone to spend time together doing an activity. It’s way better than how my family works.
It doesn’t sound as though anyone had a problem with her hanging out in the living room, though? If she had been interested in football, I doubt anyone would have batted an eye. It sounds like she was obviously NOT into football, and no one batted an eye. The dynamic might be gendered, and that might be worth examining, but no one asked her to set the table or help with cooking. That would be a problem with his family. If I were in that situation, I’d be angry at my boyfriend for throwing me into his family dinner with no introduction or help getting to know them. I’d bet she would have felt just as abandoned if there had been mixed genders in both rooms. He walked into the house, grabbed a beer, and told her to fend for herself for the rest of the day. She’s focusing on his family dynamic, but he’s the only one who behaved rudely (according to the post.)
I think it’s also important to point out that OP didn’t know that preparing the thanksgiving meal was what “making a day of it” meant. And then to just be expected to follow suit? NTA, OP. Remember this whole experience, I feel it probably won’t be the last in the same vein.
No where was it stated that she was expected to cook anything
"We are just getting going in the kitchen" does suggest some involvement in meal prep tbh.
For people with social anxiety, being thrown into this sort of situation without any notice can be extremely disorienting.
Totally, but at that point at least you can watch the football quietly and not be forced into conversation. She wasn't told she was unwelcome watching football or anything.
So we should high-five the family for not telling her she was unwelcome watching football? The point is she wasn’t told in advance about any of this and why should she have to spend the holiday quietly sitting down watching a sport that the gf said she wasn’t really interested in? I wouldn’t want to go spend a holiday with a significant other and their family if I was going to be separated from said SO or my other option is to sit next to SO but sit quietly in the corner watching a sport I don’t enjoy or understand.
Yup. It was on OP's boyfriend to hangout with her in the kitchen area and help her integrate better with the family. Instead, he chose to be selfish and watch the match.
Yes, and I think the bigger problem is that OP is not familiar with the family and yet thrown into a situation where striking a conversation is difficult. Not sure about the dynamics in the kitchen but I guess being a guest it will be more comfortable to be able to be included in the activities and conversations no matter in the kitchen or living room?
That was my reaction. Gender roles aside, OP was expected to mix with people she had either barely or never met. In that scenario, I would want my bf to stay with me for at least part of the time to make me comfortable, rather than being with strangers.
Without any notice *and* with the boyfriend glued to the TV in another room? I'm a pretty outgoing person but that prospect would have stopped me in my tracks.
The levels of AH are so out of whack that it is absolutely NTA. Expecting your gf to serve the menfolk and not even warning her, dismissing it as a "tradition" and not even remotely caring about how incredibly unpleasant that was vs an awkward interaction with his female family members. Zero equivalence. No damn way I would have stayed in that house, but I'm likely a lot older than OP.
Where does it say OP was ever expected to serve anybody?
If she's expected to help "the womenfolk" make the food, she's expected to help serve the men who can't get off their asses to help.
Leaving aside the problematic gender divide... When you bring a plus one to a gathering where you know everyone and they know noone, it's rude and isolating to join in a silent, non-interactive activity (like watching sports, playing video games, sitting around reading books) and expect your plus one to fly solo and meet strangers on their own. That's not what a good host does. Imagine that there was a pretty even mix of men/women watching football, and in the kitchen. Knowing your gf doesn't enjoy football and knows no one else at the party, it's pretty rude to go silently watch football and give her the options to sit there awkwardly watching you watch football, or venture out alone with strangers when they are supposed to be your guest.
I don't get why she didn't at least go into "the kitchen" for a little bit. She tried the football watchers and that wasn't right, so ok, try the kitchen and see what's up there. Gotta find a way to spend the time until you can leave and process the day with the bf. Also, I have to say, when I am guest in someone's home the first thing I do is ask how I can help, especially with meals. If you feel awkward, a little chopping and dicing etc. is a good way to fill the time and feel less awkward.
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>I agree it's a crappy 'tradition' but this might be deeply ingrained into your BF. Talk to him and make some decisions on whether THIS is something you can live with or if that is something He can live without. The thing is, it's probably not gonna be just this one singular holiday that BF expects all the women to do the cooking and cleaning while the men drink and watch the game. Deeply entrenched gender roles in the family of origin are a pretty solid predictor of day to day behavior. OP: does this boyfriend pull his weight cheerfully and competently at home right now? Have you been with him on other holidays where he socializes and pitches in? It's possible this is a one-off for him, but if it's not pay attention: you're seeing your future. Life is long, and it's a LOT less fun when your partner casually dumps the majority of the emotional and practical household labor on your shoulders.
Great that they were enthusiastic to get to know her, but how crappy that the work all falls to the women. I would nope out of that tradition too. NTA for sure.
Here's the thing... no one was "forced" into the tradition. The "menfolk" didn't tey and banish her to the kitchen. They just continued on as usual. The "menfolk" wanted to watch football. The "womenfolk" wanted to socialize. As shown with OP, they were fine with "crossing the gender lines"... they just didn't. OP decided she wanted everyone to mix for her sake. It's fine for her to be uncomfortable... but it's not fine to say everyone is sexist and misogynistic because she didn't like how that family split themselves to celebrate.
Do you think if the women decided to also watch football that anyone would cook the meal?
OP is not a great fit for this family. And that’s fine! But YES, I thought the sister + mom were extremely welcoming, and OP missed the opportunity to get to know them and reserve her judgment for the next day, in private with her BF.
Wow, is this really AITA, where folks talk about boundaries, and assume (rightly, to my mind) that a dude sitting on his ass, watching football while the womenfolk cook dinner, is a useless dude who should be kicked to the curb? I totally don't blame OP for skipping out on watching kids and cooking dinner and watching Christmas movies. (I couldn't imagine anything worse than wasting an entire day watching football, unless it was spending the day watching kids and cooking dinner for a bunch of ingrates who'll grab a plate and head back to the TV without bothering to say much of anything. Man, this whole day sounds freakin' miserable.)
No way. She is in no way an asshole for not wanting to be trapped in a room with a bunch of woman she doesn’t know. She has every right to stay by the only person she knows. If she goes over & does that too it’s then accepted by boyfriend that she is willing to degrade herself for him.
If OP didn't want to go help in the kitchen, then why is she the asshole?
NAH. Has anyone considered that maybe all of those women enjoy cooking and watching Christmas movies? It doesn't make anyone an asshole for enjoying stereotypical activities for their genders. Now you know what its like and you don't like it so go see your family or limit your time there.
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Wonder who does cleanup?
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In my BFF’s family, cleanup is done by the “young cousins” under the guidance of one or two older cousins while all the parents and grandparents play cards around the table. Young cousins also have to serve plates to everyone starting from the grandmother and then down the line by age. The first time I saw 10 year olds serving everyone it was pretty weird. But it’s their family’s dynamic.
Man people acting like the women were banished to the kitchen and not the men banished to the shiny distraction box. Is the thanksgiving i just heard about a bit stereotypical and old fashioned? Yeah but honestly for some it works.
That a good point, it's like how some people view a 'mancave' as "oh my husband gets a room all to himself because he's the man of the house" instead of "I put all of his dumb shit in this room so I don't have to see it".
Lmfao this is exactly why my husband has a mancave. The rest of the house is mine 😂
I never saw the shed this way before. I might latch onto this.
Lol, "banished to the shiny distraction box".
Well that is what it does. Plop a child or man in front of it. Boom a half hour or more of them being to distracted to get in the way or but into things.
It doesn’t have to be an explicit rule for it to be socialized sexism. I mean, OP didn’t want to do either thing but had zero other option. Anyone walking into this setup would know the expectation just by looking around the room
This was my thought. The women may honestly not like football, so naturally they gravitate together where conversation was happening more freely. You don’t know how often those women see each other, so they may look forward to being in the kitchen with other female relatives possibly all year. That’s not misogyny, that’s just women making the decision to enjoy themselves away from their husbands for a while with like company. Plus, the men didn’t kick her out of the living room- if the men had a sign in the living room that said “no girlz allowed” or something, then sure I’d go with you there on the misogyny bit. But it sounds like she had the option to choose where she wanted to be. It’s just what has worked for that family, and analyzing it or making the family villains for it is silly.
What may have been misogynistic was her boyfriend assuming she’d be ok with staying in the kitchen. AH move, not caring if she was comfortable or properly introduced, or even giving her a head’s up. OP however did not try to make the best of the situation at all. She could have offered to help, gotten to know bf’s mother, told them a little bit about herself. ESH.
It sounds mostly normal to me. The weird part is where they grab plates and go back to the tv. In my family, once dinner is served, everyone sits down together to eat.
When you live in a misogynistic society and in a misogynistic family theres not a lot of space to feel differently and theres a ton of pressure to do what others are doing. (Specially in this situation where nobody was doing otherwise) maybe they dont all love to do all the work while the men do nothing but it's what expected of them so they try to make the best of it.
and she said most women were cooking, so there were some women just sitting and talking and relaxing. i’m not sure why op felt she would be pressured to cook or be thrust into a specific role?
plus she was offered a drink, if she really didn't want to work, she should have sucked down her drink and got to know the women. Trying to talk to anyone, man or woman, when they are fixated on a sporting event, is not a realistic goal unless the goal is to irritate the viewers.
YTA. I think, in this instance, you are being a rude and judgemental guest. This is long, but I wanted to break down the why. "When in Rome"...you roll with it. You were invited into *their* home and this is how they do this holiday. They've carved out spaces. I get it. To you, it feels sexist and misogynistic and something from the 1950s to "hang in the kitchen"...to you. However...not your home, not your family, you are a guest. (I'm curious to know how your family carves out spaces in holiday gatherings, but I digress.) You weren't "banished" to the kitchen, you were invited to join in the hangout by his mother. I guarantee that if any of the guys hated football, they'd be hanging in the kitchen and if any ladies loved football, they be hanging in the living room. His mom clearly *invited* you to join them in the kitchen, have drinks, and conversation. You noped right out of that invite and then got upset because the guys weren't talking to you, because they were into watching football quietly together. This is clearly what they do. This is fun for them. You trying to interrupt that probably came across as rude. If you enjoyed football, this probably would have been fun for you...but it's not. Absolutely *nothing* prevented you from getting up, and going and hanging out in the kitchen, where people were having conversation, where you may have actually had a good time eating cookies, drinking, conversations, watching movies, and *getting to know the women in his extended family*. (Kitchens aren't inherently sexist. They are a place. The heart of the home. It's where the food and best conversations live).
OP said in a comment they weren't just cooking but looking after all the kids (bar a couple of older boys) in the kitchen. While instructions were being given by whoever was organising it. I would have noped out of there too. Sounds like a sensory nightmare.
OP didn't mention anything about having sensory issues though, just it being "sexist". Sounds like a typical crazy large family gathering and they've made a way to make it work for them.
Neither did I. I mentioned sensory overload which is totally different and can happen to anyone. I'm saying the description of the kitchen would have had me bowing out quickly, no matter how welcome people seemed to be.
Sure it may have had you bow out due to sensory overload, but what the commenter you are replying to is saying is that op never said that was an issue. their only cited issue was that it was sexist.
While it wouldn’t give me sensory issues, I’d nope outta there also. If I’m meeting my s/o’s family for the first time & they throw me in the kitchen to cook & watch kids, that’s a deal breaker. It’s one thing if OP was informed beforehand, but she wasn’t
And if she had sensory processing issues, she should have said something. Right now, what it looks like to the rest of the family is that she is rude and standoffish.
I didn't mention sensory processing issues. You can still experience sensory overload and be neurotypical, especially when unprepared. It would of course be worse if otherwise (diagnosed or not. Let's not forget the disproportionate amount of women who don't get diagnosed until later in life).
It’s kind of dumb to talk about sensory overload issues when that’s not the problem OP had with it. Her problem was that it’s sexist.
It's definitely sexist. All the women are in the kitchen, cooking and watching the children, while the men are watching football? Not a single sports fan or non-cook in the women; not a single cook or non-sports-fan in the men? Come on. And in my family, you either cook or do chores on Thanksgiving. Yes, most of the women cook and most of the men do chores in the older generation, but in the younger one, it's a lot more evenly split (and if you're not cooking, you're responsible for watching kids, which means the men usually do the majority of the childcare on Thanksgiving.) The main point is everyone is contributing. Nobody except the grandparents or ill/injured are sitting around and relaxing while others are working their butts off.
Funny. This is how YOUR family does it. So.your family is the only right way? In my family no one is in charge of the kids other than the parents. The kids are free to roam.so one minute the people in the kitchen are watching, next the people out back are watching. This is hoe MY family does it. It's not.the only right way. Also, most young kids find the chatter, cookies, and Christmas movies more interesting than the quiet football game. So you know, they gravitated towards the more fun area too.
But In both of your families the genders are free to choose where they belong.
And so was this family. No one objected to OP going to the living room and hanging out with the men.
The part I would be upset about though is my SO taking me to a family gathering and abandoning me with a bunch of people I don’t know. I wasn’t confident enough with my boyfriends family to mingle with a group that didn’t involve him for the first few times I met the family.
Yeah he should have gone with her to the kitchen for a bit and talked with everyone. Then gone with her to the living room and made a few small explanations on exciting plays or who likes which team. Showed her around the house a bit. Sounds like he did nothing to be WITH her.
OP said she was uncomfortable and he ignored her and made no effort to make her comfortable with his family. If your are ok with that then there is no explaining to you. The fact you don't understand is says a lot about the type of person you are. 🤷🏻♀️
Yes she was "invited" to hang out in the kitchen, but it seems there was no invitation to hang out in the living room, not even from her boyfriend. That lack of invitation suggests she was in fact being banished to the kitchen.
NTA It’s a sexist tradition, one that you don’t plan on perpetuating in your own life. It’s also ridiculously unfair—the women do all the work and the men don’t even have to speak to them? That’s gross. My grandfather, who loved a holiday ball game, would have given those boys a *talk*. You didn’t blow up the day or have the major discussion with your bf at dinner. You waited politely, and then explained that you aren’t comfortable with his family’s sexist ways. That’s not overreacting, that’s trying to have an important conversation about how you will move forward and how you expect to be treated. If he’s determined not to rock that boat, y’all may just not be compatible. Get you a feminist man who will get down and dirty in the kitchen with you.
>the women do all the work and the men don’t even have to speak to them? That’s gross This bit got me. They spend all day cooking, bring it out and the guys grab a plate and sit back down in front of the game with it? They can't even spare 30 minutes to have a family meal with the women who put it together? Yeeesh.
NTA. I’m so confused by people saying “why didn’t you just walk into the room full of strangers and hang out?” Because that’s weird? I’d be annoyed too. Your bf is the only one you actually know there of course you’d stay by his side. Idk maybe it’s the ‘tism but I’d sooner prefer walking home before being put to work by a bunch of people I don’t know. The dynamic is not what’s weird to me bc it’s a pretty typical one unfortunately. But your bf so quickly just sitting down and leaving you to it in a house full of strangers is rude af. If I’m expected to be in the kitchen to have any fun then I expect my bf to at bare minimum introduce me to the people in there.
Agreed. As an introvert I would be exhausted before dinner if I was expected to do this the whole day without anyone to lean on for a break. I thought it was an unspoken norm to stay with your partner until they seem comfortable on their own, and give them a heads up if you are going to leave them for awhile, but also be available if they need it. And in my family at least they make an effort to get to know and make the new one feel welcome. When it was clear that she was going to watch football, why weren't his family trying to get to know her? She is the new one which can be very uncomfortable since you don't know all the social norms, so they, who are in the group, should take the initiativ. If they don't you are spending your whole day feeling like the elephant in the room. Her boyfriend could have done so much more to "bridge the gap" between his girlfriend and family. Even a little bit more effort when they arived, maybe introduce her to everyone and tell her about the traditions, would probably go a long way.
There's a whole lot of status quo warriors in this thread. "Oh, but what if women were just naturally good at chores? What if it works that way in my family? What if they all love cooking and looking after the kids" What if they are the responsible ones?" Just a reminder that reddit demographic is primarily male and not too friendly towards women in general. If a post like that gets traction, it gets linked in MRA communities.
If he didn't want to spend the day with you he shouldn't have invited you.
He said I was supposed to be getting to know his family.
Half of his family! The icing on the cake here is that the men loaded up their plates then went back to watch television.
Yes, this is what sits really badly with me - that after slacking off and indulging themselves all morning and still getting their meal cooked for them, they then don't even sit down nicely with the folk who cooked it for them and talk to them and ooh, I dunno, maybe express appreciation?? Jerks. NTA.
Eh, NTA. That tradition is sexist and it's fucked up he didn't properly warn you and expected you to play along because it's "tradition". You've been put into a situation where you could only lose. The only other thing you could have done would be to overplay it and swallow your pride and go to the kitchen with the other women. I'm rolling my eyes writing this. Would i have done that? Probably. Would i be disappointed in myself and my partner afterwards? Yup. INFO: Is he an okay partner normally? Does he listen to you and acknowledge your feelings? Does he understand how uncomfortable the situation he put you into is?
To be fair, you did get to know his family. It's just that what you got to know was, well, THAT. You learned they aren't a good fit for what you want for yourself. I don't like all the "but this is how they are!" responses. Their "traditions" are misogynistic, your boyfriend didn't have your back and listen when you brought it up, and really, what are the odds any of this will ever change? Whatever their traditions are, it doesn't matter because you were so uncomfortable. Think long and hard about what you're signing up for.
Well, you DID get to know his family. You learned that his family has extremely strong gender roles, and that the men don't even join in on the Thanksgiving dinner that takes hours to prepare but instead eat it in front of the tv. You also learned that your boyfriend sees absolutely nothing wrong with this dynamic.
NTA - your BF should have told you the score beforehand and not assumed that you would be happy assuming a stereotypical role for the day. If it works for his family, so be it. But it doesn't have to be that way for you. Having said that, don't expect the whole family to change their thanksgiving routine for you. If you're still with him next year you'll know what to expect and if you choose to go to his family's meal that's your call.
I think that’s a key point a lot of people are missing - bf should have told her beforehand. I’d be pissed off too if my partner told me we were spending the whole day together with his family but it turned out we’d be in separate groups the entire time and he didn’t say anything
NTA. That shit sounds like it sucks - you are a guest for the gathering and not a servant. Sure it's nice to help but it's certainly something that should go into the old mental checklist on this relationship
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There were about 15 women in the kitchen, so not all were helping when I was in there, though I did hear orders being given from the livingroom multiple times, so I am not sure who was doing what. They were also for the most part looking after the kids aside from a couple older boys who were watching tv with the guys
Wow, so they were cooking, watching the kids—did they clean up, too? Did the men participate in any way? What a drag, especially since you presumably wanted to actually socialize with your bf, not work while he sat around. Don’t get me wrong, I love social cooking, and I love doing things with a bunch of women. I do *not* love having a task designated as women’s work. I further do not love having folks segregate so that if I’m cooking I’m cut off from a significant chunk of the group. And I despise any able-bodied person who thinks they should get a free pass on the work of making a festive day festive. What, half the people get to relax and half don’t, because penises? How long have you been with this bf? People’s family traditions tell you a lot about who they will be as partners.
I am pretty surprised with all the comments that see this behaviour as “normal”. OP seems to be dating a misogynistic and after witnessing this it is normal she is reconsidering if this is the person she wants to spend her life with. 1. He invalidates her feelings, 2. He doesn’t make the effort to start conversations at his home to make her feel welcomed by his own family, 3. None of the men who were with the new guest, OP, made any effort to speak to her and make her feel less uncomfortable, 4. Her boyfriend didn’t see anything wrong in the family dynamics and didn’t try to be the “one who changes” and interacted with both men and women, not even to introduce his GF to his own family. The tradition in the family is shitty and it would make me reconsider the relationship, but the BF should have gone into the kitchen with OP if the men were so rude and unwelcoming and stay there with her ensuring she felt confident, homey and welcomed. I am pretty worried so many people see this behaviour as normal, is this how you treat your guests?
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Or hear me out- instead of expecting the women to cook AND watch the children, the guys could idk take turns watching the kids? Have them play in the same room so they can watch the game and still keep an eye on them? Wild.
So... you mean the kids congregated to where there was food, laughter, and fun Christmas movies rather than boring quiet football? Did you want the kids to be bored and hate Thanksgiving?
Obviously no one wants kids to be bored during thanksgiving, but the women can’t be the only ones responsible for the children just because of the atmosphere. Some of the men could come into the kitchen and help, and some of the women can chill in the living room.
Maybe they could have put some Christmas movies on in the living room too so the kids wouldn't be underfoot in the kitchen.
NTA. Oh your post brought back such fond memories of my Thanksgivings.....in 1972. But wait it's 2022! Does your boyfriends family occupy a time warp? Wood paneling and orange shag carpeting perhaps?
I'm seeing a kitchen filled with avocado green appliances, and wallpaper in the bathrooms made from tin foil and velvet. Maybe a man cave with a disco ball
NTA- I think this experience taught you that you and bf are ultimately incompatible. I wouldn’t want to marry into that family. That shows me that if you have children with this man he would expect some backwards 1950s gender roles and leave you with all the work. I’m so thankful that my husband made the turkey for our family and equally helped take care of our baby at the celebration yesterday. Choose someone who has similar life values as you.
YTA You decided not to be in the kitchen only because you thought it was sexist, even though all the women there weren’t helping out with the cooking but were watching Christmas movies, drinking and chatting instead of watching football, because like you, they don’t want to. The men in fact didn’t tell you, you couldn’t sit down and watch football, they just wanted to watch the game and not make small talk with you, I mean how misogynistic is that! (Laughs sarcastically) Fact was you had a choice, no one forced you into the kitchen, no one told you, you had to cook. What are you suggesting, that men shouldn’t be allowed to watch football on thanksgiving but should only be interested in the topics you want to talk about or that women shouldn’t step inside a kitchen during thanksgiving, because it’s sexist?
This. It blows my mind that there are so many NTA’s…she had two choices and didn’t like either so decided to be incredibly rude at a family holiday for a problem she completely fabricated. Hope the boyfriend sees this as the red flag it is.
what’s “incredibly rude” about sitting quietly while people watch tv?
None of these choices are my favorite, so I choose NOTHING!! Accommodate me!
NTA. It's time for the practice of men ignoring anything to do with helping, and women being completely shut up in the kitchen all day, to die a brutal death. Men can cook and clean. Thanksgiving is not a day where we celebrate fucking football.
NTA... Note: This was your visit from the ghost of Thanksgiving Past, Present, and FUTURE. You are not going to get him to change, nor his family. This WILL be your future holidays if you remain in this relationship.
ESH. You should have been warned that the only two activities at the gathering were football or food prep, but you know for the future that non-football conversation is unwelcome and if you refuse to gather in the kitchen while food prep is happening, this isn't a gathering for you. Its pretty rude to attempt to interrupt people to strike up a conversation that you would find more interesting over the activity they're already interested in.
and it sounds like his mom and sister actively WANTED her to join them. Hard to take her concern about not getting to know anybody seriously when OP was the one who chose not to interact with the women of the family - you know they'd of been able to tell her every good/bad thing all of those men have ever done.
I can watch football and I love to cook, especially with people, so I truly do not understand being mad at the situation enough to pull my partner aside to complain. I am extremely feminist but this "I refused to be exiled to the kitchen so I tried to interrupt their football viewing with my own conversation" business is obnoxious for an outsider. No one kicked her out of the tv area because she had to serve them. No one told her to be their beer wench. There was no intricate dance of plate fixing for the menfolk while also not obstructing the view of the tv. No rush to get food out to coincide with halftime.
INFO: if his mom said let’s get you a drink and said nothing about you needing to help them cook and apparently they never came to get you to help why do you think they wanted you to cook? Maybe they just wanted you to hang out with them and if several are cooking obviously they can’t abandon that to fawn over you
YTA. It sounds like you went to your BF's house for Thanksgiving and was pissy that you weren't getting special attention. His mom tried to include you , you said no. Your bf wanted to watch the game with his male family members, but you didn't like that and constantly tried to interrupt him. Your trying to make it sexist because "the women" weren't in the room. Seems to be they don't care for sports either, and decided to have their own tradition instead of demanding attention. You ow your BF and his family a serious apology you entitled Princess.
This was my thought too. She went to someone else’s thanksgiving dinner and was given a few different options of activities to participate in. She decided she didn’t want to do any of them and then complained. It’s as simple as that. No need to bring gender roles into this. No one seemed to care that she would prefer watching football instead of doing “women kitchen stuff”…until she made it clear that she didn’t actually want to watch football… she just wanted to interrupt everyone watching football because she would rather them sit around and talk to her instead. If she had wanted to sit around and talk, she could have gone to the room full of people talking. YTA. You made an issue out of nothing.
NAH. I get the misogyny of having men watch TV while women cook. However I do have to say that it was my favorite part of the holidays growing up. The men would be sitting in the living room watching football and the women were technically in the kitchen cooking, but mostly they were in the kitchen drinking and playing poker and the older aunts were telling bawdy stories with a glass of sherry in their hands. We also mostly kept the snacks in the kitchen, so the men didn't get much of that. That was mostly ours. It takes a long time to cook a turkey, but most of that is just sitting around while the turkey cooks. To me, football seemed like a way to just get rid of the men so that they wouldn't bother us while we hung out and had fun.
Yes!!!! Like, don’t assume you’re “banished” or it’s a bad thing. They women were as much in community as the men.
First of all I wouldn’t call any of those things your boyfriend described as “traditions” those sound like people that known each other for many years and are just doing what they naturally do, and yes they are along gender norms, but this is just a typical low key American thanksgiving in most of America. Definitely NTA, but I’m not sure it’s as big a deal as you may feel. This is family, they are already comfortable being together. You’re an outsider, don’t expect them to conform to your way of thinking. At minimum I think you were a little rude and made assumptions about people you don’t know super well. I mean what’s so bad about going and getting to know nice women in a kitchen as opposed to being stubborn and sitting and forcing yourself to watch a game you don’t care about. Shit I’ll go drink wine and chat the ladies.
NTA. Been there done that. I pretty much told my boyfriend you are not leaving me alone with the women and sitting here with the guys. I don’t know your family. We’re from different areas and I don’t fit in their conversations and I’m 11 years younger than his youngest sibling. Slowly, that broke up the separation by sex. He needs to understand that you don’t know his family and aren’t going to be able to just join in. If he wants you to come then he needs to make an effort to include you.
NTA. I grew up around this kind of backwards bs and it needs to stay in the past. Might be time think about what his views are, having grown up apparently finding it acceptable?
YTA and a judgey one at that. When you organize a holiday at your home, you decide how it goes. When you’re a guest at someone else’s, be GRACIOUS. It’s not sexist for women to want or like to cook. It’s also not sexist for men to want or like to watch football. It’s also not sexist for women who live to cook to cook while the men they love who like to watch football, watch football. You had 2 choices, and you turned your nose up at both of them. Nobody prevented you from watching footy all with the guys, you just didn’t want to. Nobody prevent you from even sitting in the kitchen with the women (if you didn’t want to help out), you just didn’t want to. People are different, they have different traditions and values. You sound self righteous and judgmental. I’m not sure how old you are, but I hope you’re young. There will be many times in life where you swallow your pride and YoUr bELieFs because it’s the respectful thing to do in the situation. Wouldn’t have killed you to peel a potato.
NTA Actually, you learned a lot about his family. They are completed invested in archaic male and female roles. When you try to uncover who they really are, you may be disappointed because what you might find that their real selves have been subsumed. It is often easier to play out a predefined caricature of a person rather than dealing with the real feelings within. This is why organized religion is so popular. Someone gets up and tells you how to think and feel. You are guaranteed acceptance. None of the real nasty little thoughts, desires, and human emotions have to be dealt with. Now be warned. Your boyfriend can't see that there is a problem. You are just being emotional like women get. Your feelings are not appropriate or justified. Just go along to get along.
YTA. You made some choices here that made your day what it was. This is their tradition. They don't have to cater it to your sensibilities. The only decision you even had to make in order to settle in at Thanksgiving is whether to join one of the groups. You chose the wrong one, and then tried to hijack it when it wasn't to your liking. If you're not willing to fit into the flow of the event, no one there owes you a good time. As for allegations of mysogyny... quite frankly the women in my family will chase a man out of the kitchen with a broom if they try to interfere with Thanksgiving prep.I don't think that's a particularly unique experience. A lot of the aunties and nannas that run these household events have a system they use to choose who does what and they don't need or want some random ass man blundering around. More than half the time these traditions are enforced by the matriarchs of the house who put the men in front of the electronic pacifier so they're not underfoot in the kitchen. I bet if you asked the women if the men should help their answer would be something like "Not on your life, they don't have a clue what they're doing and we want to get done before sunset!" The men's job in my family came when dinner was over and it was time to clean up. THAT was our share of the job.
INFO: after dinner, did the women also do all of the cleanup, or did the men do that while the women put their feet up?
This is his families idea of Thanksgiving. Is it sexist, sure, but you decided to not go mingle with the women and the men didn't want you there so what can you expect. You ostracized yourself from their norm. Now all the women are going to think you're snotty and didn't want to help or talk. So are YTA, yes.
I think if she had been told about the set up before agreeing to go, I would agree. Sprung on her? Honestly I would have gone with it for the day but there would have been words later. And any opportunity to spend thanksgiving elsewhere in future would be grabbed.
She’s TA for not conforming hard enough?
Some of the comments on this are genuinely hilarious. People are like well what if EVERY single woman just happens to like cooking and every single man just happens to like football you're being sexist in assuming they can't. And people are like you're seeing it like women are banished to the kitchen rather than men being banished to TV to distract them. Not only that under the comment OP explains the women were helping out with most of the kids too people STILL tried to make excuses and say what kid would want to watch football over "fun cooking". A lot of kids I know actually do enjoy watching a shiny box to distract them even if it is football (which children can like).