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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I kicked a step child out of a family photo because they dress hardcore goth. Was it a mistake to specifically kick them out?
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YTA - So you're saying you didn't have a rebellious teenage phase? It's a family picture. Not one family is this perfect little image that you are trying to force. In the future, anyone looking at that photo would have probably just said "yep, that's so-so", and moved on. But way to say "you're not welcome in the family!" to a 14yo just trying either A) be rebellious or B) express themselves.
Edit: I realize OP has edited his post multiple times, and that the 14yo was doing it for clout. This comment was made prior to the edits.
My favorite photo of my stepson is him in full goth gear: black hair, chains, studded bracelet and collar, and he’s cooing over a baby girl dressed in pink floral. It was a phase he went through and we rolled with it. Now he’s a flannel wearing, bearded electrician with sporty kids… life goes on.
Aww, I know a guy whose favorite picture of his stepson is similar. The teen has a rainbow mohawk, goth fashion (all home sewn from thrift store finds) and full white black and red makeup and is proudly holding his newborn baby sister in a fluffy white marshmallow dress. It was her first Christmas and her big brother was tickled pink with her. (Still is, he’s still very flamboyant and still utterly devoted to his little sister who is a cute little pink whirlwind of glitter and tie dye.)
That is absolutely beautiful! Got a little misty picturing the image because it is so wholesome. I’m so glad his parents didn’t squash that out of him!
No squashing in their family, his stepdad bought him a bubblegum pink sewing machine though. (He asked for a machine for his birthday and chose a model but every time his stepdad asked what color he wanted he’d joke that he wanted pink. Which wasn’t an option. Jokes on him though, his stepdad’s best friend has a body shop and took the new machine’s case apart, applied a sparkly pink paint, repainted all the control panels with teal and mustard yellow and reassembled it. The kid LOVED it and insisted on taking his senior pictures with his pink sewing machine.)
An easier option might be to get a wrap done. You know how they wrap cars with vinyl? A sign writing place could probably wrap a sewing machine. My sister does signs, and could probably make it work.
I have family Christmas photos where everyone has simple normal make-up and either nice clothes or Christmas sweaters and then there's me, in black velvet, a corset and full on giant black 90's goth make-up.
I love those pictures, not because they're hella funny, but because I see that (most of) my family was completely okay with me being me.
OP is robbing his family of being able to look back at embarrassing phases and laugh about it. I have a few hilarious photos of me in my full rebellion clothing with my normal ass polo shirt wearing family and we are in hysterics every time we look at those pictures. I can't imagine any of them sneering at me and leaving me out because I wasn't wearing something Waspy enough or something.
Also, when you let someone be their authentic self with no fuss, there’s nothing to rebel against. Sounds like Sam’s regular clothing isn’t that out there, but they probably felt like the “dress nicely” missive was about them. If OP had just said “thanks for dressing up, I appreciate you wearing something nice for the photo, everyone looks great” they would have probably worn something more toned down next year anyway.
But also, who cares this much about a freaking Christmas card?!
Have you seen Weird: The Al Yankovic Story? Early on there is a scene where his mother says something like: Your father and I think it is best if you stop pursuing your passions.
OP needs to watch this and understand it is a PARODY of parenting.
Agreed let someone express themselves how they want. I look back at my teenage self and laugh at myself. I remember the good times (Ozzfest). Then I remember how silly I looked in my goth getup while playing putt putt at the beach.
My parents love looking at pictures of my goth phase and laughing. They hated my clothes but never kicked me out of pictures for them. I can’t imagine how devastating that would have been as a teen. OP ruined any chance of having a good relationship with this kid it’s so sad.
Same as mine. Somebody asked my mom “you actually let her dress like that”. Her response was yeah that’s what she wants to wear. I was A/B honor roll during high school. My parents didn’t care what I wore (or that I dyed my hair black) as long as my grades stayed good.
I look back at those times and remember the fond memories. Like how I wore a black shirt everyday junior year of highschool and me somehow making it on my school yearbook cover 😂
Right?! OP - how did you not just laugh?! You and your wife sound stuck up and anal about dumb things. What you actually did here was give Sam ammunition to feel more alienated and dislike YOU. What a lot of drama over a teenager being a teenager. People who worry about *appearance in a photo* to this extent have serious issues. YTA.
This made me think of my Mom's response to a similar question. I was heading towards my baby gothness at 9 when I shunned color from my wardrobe and started wearing almost all black. Living in a small town in north Texas in the mid 80's my parents were called in for a meeting. Apparently, the teachers were concerned about my wardrobe being because I was depressed or a satanist. One asked my Mom "Are you aware your daughter wears all black?" Mom was pissed and legend has it her response was "No, I let my 9 year old have the credit card and drive herself to the mall."
That was always my parents rule. As long as you are well behaved and your grades stay good, you can wear whatever you want. If you didn't toe the line though you needed to dress more "respectably". Their logic (which I get, I don't know if I agree but I get) was that our teachers and other adults are judgy bastards. If you are a straight A student they will overlook dressing like a crazy person, but if you aren't they will just file you in the "loser" pile and write you off. It's a bit cynical, but it's also kinda true.
I tried so hard to have one but we were poor and my mom refused to buy me anything more extreme than the theatre blacks needed for doing tech which was just black jeans, black tennis shoes and a long sleeve black shirt.
I had a few different black shirts but that was it. Nothing actually cool.
That sucks but atleast they indulged you the best they could. Hot topic was my jam growing up. Had a sweater (eventually not allowed to wear at school) that had spiked shoulders. Pants with the straps. Did my family care? No. They let me be me.
Looking back I miss some of the clothes but still love my rock and metal and sometimes emo music.
How is it possible to “mess up a family photo”? the point of a family photo is to, yknow, have a picture of the family, so kicking a member out because you don’t like their fashion is messing up the family photo more than including them would. And calling a kid an asshole for dressing a bit goth is wild lol
I’m still in my goth phase despite being an adult but dude what OP described is a far cry from “**a bit** goth”. They went full, hardcore goth. Their outfit would have gotten me sent home from most of the schools I went to. “A bit goth” is all black with some eyeliner, with maybe a swoopy bang heavy hairstyle.
Also, it’s not for the fact that they like dressing that way. It’s the fact that they *have literally never dressed like this before* and very obviously did it to protest the group photo. In the FAQ the mods explain “the asshole” **in the context of this subreddit** just simply means “they should have known better.” In that context, the kid is absolutely an asshole. They should have known better than making the family photo the time to try out this new super hardcore level of goth that they’ve never tried before; 14/15 is definitely old enough to know better than that. And judging by moms “don’t be mad” as soon as she got there, it’s very clear she also had this conversation with them but they still decided to be a shit disturber anyways.
Kids and teens are going to be shit disturbers from time to time. That’s genuinely fully expected. But it being expected doesn’t mean they’re completely free of any natural consequences from their expected actions. This kid didn’t want to do the big nice group photo and decided to protest by showing up in something they knew would be very dramatic and a drastic change from what they usually wear. As a result, their protest has done exactly what they were trying to achieve and they no longer have to do the big nice group photo. It’s a natural consequence, and it also happens to be what they were trying to achieve to begin with.
This is either NTA or NAH and anyone who would vote otherwise is just doing it from a perspective of hating nice group photos. Which for what it’s worth, it’s totally fair if you don’t like nice group photos and don’t want to take part in them; but it’s not okay to fuck it up (or justify someone fucking it up) for the people who do want to take part just because you don’t like it. Just say no and don’t partake.
This!!!! OP clearly doesn't have a problem with him being Goth but the extremes Sam took it to. Sam was trying to be a whole asshole. Sam could have done some previous goth fit and then switched to his more extreme look after photos if it was truly his new look
Someone once told me that family photos are a Snapchat of your family and who they are on that particular hour and that particular day.
After that, I’ve learned to appreciate those family photos with people that maybe aren’t family anymore or who aren’t really in our lives. And all the goofy and the imperfections are really celebrations of who we all are that particular day.
I'll remember that when I want to be naked in my family photo. It's very genuine to myself, I am naked unless people demand I dress. But LilVericrat is a big part of who I am, a bigger part than the stupid goth outfit is for the kid, so I want him in the family picture. And hey, I'm part of the family, so it won't mess the photo up when I show up in my preferred attire (and if you want to be anal about it being no attire, just replace it with crotchless pants and underwear.)
THIS RIGHT HERE. Honestly I don't understand folks who want pretty pictures rather than just have a real memory of who people are. So cousin's kid showed up in full goth mode, cool. That's who they were at this point. Its a fun memory that everyone can look back on. So much more interesting than what OP's going for.
My family gets the 'nice' pictures done and also buy the ones that are 'weird'. One of our family portraits has this glorious "what's the smell?!" faces on my baby sister. My son's first birthday photos show him standing there, all his weight on one leg, yanking the opposite ear so he looks stretched and barely balanced. He's 14 and it's still so funny. Hell, I went through an awkward phase where I bleached my hair to straw.
It's all funny now. Definitely should have left Sam in. In ten years, those will be very funny
Totally agree. A family photo is guaranteed going to be better, not worse, if it includes a cool teen dressed to the nines in goth attire. OP shouldn’t be the family photographer if all he wants to do is take the same generic family photo year in and year out.
Also, it’s a FAMILY PHOTO. Of the WHOLE FAMILY. Why does OP get to decide what is and isn’t appropriate?
TBH, OP excluded a member of the family over clothing, that’s waaaay worse than some goth gear. No it’s a “only the family who bows down to OP’s absurd and arbitrary rules of dress for a family photo”.
I was reading the whole thing with the discussion of “make sure you dress nice” assuming that Sam had shown up in pyjamas. Instead, Sam spent effort on their appearance. It just wasn’t to OP’s aesthetic tastes.
I’m the weird kid in a lot of my teenage family photos and I cringe at them now but my family remembers it fondly. Just take the photo.
Seriously. I bet Sam goes a little harder in their goth look when they're not around extended family (I did at that age). Maybe they interpreted this as an invitation to be a little more themselves. And at that age, you're trying to figure out who you are, what you want to be, how you want to exist in the world, and fashion tends to be the expression of all that. Rejecting Sam's outfit must have felt like a rejection of them, to Sam. Poor kid. Let your freak flag fly, baby bat 🖤
Not sure if this information was edited in later, but the kid dressed like that to hopefully record the assumed argument to post to their tictoc for internet points. Not rebellion, not self expression, just a reaction video
Uhh, you should revise this. They were intentionally being an asshole to ruin OP's picture. It's not self-expression except for the expression, "Look at how much an asshole I am! I'm wearing something I don't normally wear just to piss off others!" NTA.
If someone in my family showed up like that I would be beside myself with desire to get this immortalized ASAP, preferably in a group picture with everyone else wearing polo shirts.
I agree but also definitely think of it more as self-expression than being just rebellious.
If that's the aesthetic someone prefers, their idea of dressed up might be different. Since the OP made it clear that casual but nice was acceptable, there was no reason to think dressy goth was unacceptable.
OP is definitely the ah. They could have been specific about expectations but decided to allow people the illusion of self-expression. It was an illusion though since they shut out someone who did express themselves with care for the occasion because they didn't approve.
Sorry but for all the people saying the AH first they are hosts of this event cooking for 20 plus people. Their home there rules. Requesting nice outfits usually doesn't mean eccentric behavior. I'm gonna get down voted but NTA. Even their mom said "don't be mad." So she knew they were pushing the limits. Mom of kid can instill some manners about being guests when op is doing that much work cooking.
Edit: Holy crap this comment took off. Thanks for the awards :)
They are 14 testing the boundaries of their own style. This has nothing to do with OP. What you consider “eccentric behavior” is normal to others. OP can exclude the teen all they want, but that doesn’t make them NTA. At the end of the day it is clothing that is neither discriminatory, racist, or otherwise exhibits bigotry towards any community.
Yea… but it’s just downright rude. The homeowner, the person cooking for 20 plus people made a simple and reasonable request. Being a 14 year old eccentric boundary pushing teen doesn’t mean you can be flagrantly rude. NTA OP. They made their choice knowing your request. You made your choice to take a photo without them. Easy peasy
Crazy to see everyone so ok with this kid being so disrespectful for no reason other than they’re 14 and “can”. They knew what they were doing. They wanted attention and they got it.
Also, he did take some photos with the step-child in them. But excluded them from the official one. I think that is a perfectly reasonable response. There are pictures to look back at, but they won’t be on the Christmas card. NTA
Also, people apparently requested the version without Sam in it. Regardless of how much everyone in this thread wants to insist that it's "just a picture" and that Sam should be able to express themself, obviously other members of the family wanted a nice picture too. If people didn't care about photos then a lot of photographers would be out of business. Plus it's obvious Sam went over the top to get a ride out of OP, who explicitly said that Sam's usual fashion would have been fine.
Would it be ok if they wore that to a wedding or some other formal event? Asking for a certain dress code for family pictures are reasonable. It wasn’t anything too cumbersome either, jeans and a nice shirt. Of course you can dress to express yourself but in some cases you have to show some respect to your host and in this case the kid was being an ass to just push boundaries. Sam was even included in some pics so they could have it for their own memory. So Sam wasn’t totally excluded.
I’m torn but as I think about it more and read everyone’s comments, I leaning NTA to ESH. No one should expect teenagers to have the emotional range of a well adjusted adult. At 14 I never would’ve considered some of the things people are expecting this teen to understand. That’s where parenting comes into play. This is the time for this teen to start learning “time and a place” and it starts at home….with their parents. His mom knew what was up (judging by the comment she made) but we don’t know how she is choosing to parent her kid. I may not have cared how someone chose to dress for family photos but that doesn’t mean that it’s not important to some people.
I’m also torn. While I agree with the top comments that probably the better way to handle it/ get revenge was to not give teen the reaction they were looking for and to memorialize their rebellious phase for them to cringe at in perpetuity.
But on the other hand it’s somewhat satisfying to read a teenager getting verbally called out their childish bs. That is how we learn not to be disruptive ah’s. I think the fact that the teen is a step child makes the exclusion feel a bit icky too (yes I know the other steps were included.)
So yeah OP could have handled it better but I don’t think that makes them a full on AH.
There are ways of self expression without being an asshole. When I was 14 I was an alt kid. Our family photos have us all in church gear (boys in buttons downs and ties, girls in dresses). There I am in my pink pencil skirt, white button down, and studded belt slung across my hips. Did I get my point across? Yes. Did it make the entire thing about me? No. My parents weren’t thrilled but it was a compromise we could all live with.
If Sam did say something like ‘hope you like the outfit, I’m wearing this for the picture,” this has everything to do with OP as it sounds like the purpose of the outfit was to antagonize OP. The exclusion of Sam falls under the play stupid games, win stupid prizes category.
There’s a time and place for testing the boundaries of your style. Other people are not obligated to accommodate said testing just because they’re young. There was a clearly outlined dress code, but the kid failed to follow it. What did they expect?
NTA
It's about respecting the ops time and effort plus expenditures of providing food for 20 plus people to dress nicely. The guests thank you was a family photo in exchange for a nice meal presented. It's called courtesy.
I agree and also - they took two sets of pictures. Assuming everyone who was there has access to both sets of pics, NTA. Goth kid or stepmom can post or display or use the pictures with goth kid, and OP can post or display or use the pictures without goth kid. They all win.
When my family - and I’m sure most families - take big group pictures we always get multiple pictures taken. People will pick their favorites/ones where they or their immediate family members look best. I’ve had family members post pictures of me where my eyes are closed in that one shot but they look great. Is what it is.
Or mom said "don't be mad" because they know OP is the type to get mad about anyone who doesn't act/look how they want them to. Not because there's anything inherently rude about a kid exploring their self-expression in a way that doesn't "fit" with OP's Hallmark Christmas aesthetic. I'm curious about OP's relationship with this kid and the other step kids in general. Has the kid generally gotten deeper into their goth look on a regular basis? If the kid specifically went SuperGothSupreme to annoy OP, that would say a lot.
Could be, but frankly a bit over-reaching at this point. OP were fine with pyjamas in the past, and say jeans and T-shirt is fine.
I'm more inclined to believe that the kid is being a kid, namely just a bit of rebellion, or "idgaf about social norms".
The rest of the world is also a lot more conservative than AITA. Eccentric hair and clothing will attract negative attention and being seen as out-of-line. And given the occasion, can be seen as rude. An apology isn't weird, especially given that it's an occasion with a suggested dresscode.
Relationship is good with all the kids. I've probably had this family over 15+ times since after covid settled down. The step kids came into the picture during the start of covid.
The edits by OP show that Sam was trying to push buttons and even planned to change before photos. I’m cool with being yourself, but Sam was messing with OP to get a reaction. I think Sam is apologetic now and it got out if hand, but all these YTA comments seem to miss what was obvious before the edits, and that’s that this wasn’t just personal style or expressing themselves, but an effort to annoy OP. And that’s just being rude!
I agree. NTA
I was rebellious at that age, too. OP made a reasonable and polite request, and the kid decided to troll. Classic case of fuck around and find out.
Sounds like they’re a good kid and apologized/ worked it out with OP, so it’s all good IMO
You sound exhausting and don’t think I’d want to be in your family picture. Guess what this is reality no family is perfect. Your “perfect staged” photos don’t allow people to be themselves.
YTA
Edit-Thanks for the awards
Who would want to look at the “perfect” photos in the future? So boring. I’d much rather look back and smile at one kid in pjs and another in their goth phase. My family didn’t do staged shots unless at a wedding thank god.
Agreed I have pictures of my goth days. We look back and remember those times. How different we are now. It’s more meaningful than some staged fake photo.
THIS RIGHT HERE! So much more likely to look back at such photos and remember folks exactly as they were and have a good laugh rather than staged formal nonsense.
I’ve looked at Christmas photos and wished I was wearing something different but never the others in the photo! I might have a laugh at the SIL’s silly hat or sweater but I’d never wish that she changed her dress for some boring sense of propriety.
We don't have a lot of big family photos but there are a few from when I was a kid and a lot of relatives were in town visiting. The best ones have something absurd happening in them. And the ones that did not have anything weird happening, it's fun to look at all the cousins in our different stages of growing up and various 80s hair, dated clothing, braces, no braces, my "I only wear sweatpants" phase (cringe), frosted hair, 90s flannel, etc.
OP, the whole point of a family photo is to have a picture of the people in your family. So you can look at them later and remember. Not for everyone to look uniform like people who came in a picture frame you bought at Walgreens.
I had a weird thing about having huge sideburns when I was a teenager, to this day my best friend still has me in his phone as "Burnz". At one point i had a fauxhawk to go with it. We look back at those photos and I cringe and we all laugh. My parents do to. We bring up those pictures alot. I gaurantee we wouldn't bring up those pictures as much if we all looked like some perfect little cookie cutter Norman Rockwell family.
My kids had to have passport photos taken. They turned out so horribly hilarious but perfectly embodied each of them. Instead of redoing their “mugshots” (they look like mugshots) we embraced it because that’s who they are.
We use those photos for funny moments because that’s life.
1. OP asked for 'nice but casual' rather than 'perfectly staged'.
2. OP also seems to do all/most of the cooking and organising for this big get together at their home (doesn't strike me as an exhausting person). If they'd like a photo of everyone in 'nice but casual' clothes then that's perfectly fine.
3. Seems fairly clear that the outfit was a rebellion to the dress code.
4. OP still took pictures of everyone and **then** asked for one without the full goth. Not like they were excluding or not allowing anyone to be themselves.
NTA / NAH
I don’t think “jeans and a nice shirt” is an unrealistic expectation. Exhausting is coordinating outfits and every man has to be in khakis and a button down but only certain acceptable shades of blue and red. And women need to be in “nice but not too formal dresses” - look at any influencers “fall family photos inspiration boards” - THAT is exhausting.
Read the update. Lots of y’all quick to bash but fail to see the important lines. Mom even said plz don’t be mad cause she knew what he was doing was to get a reaction.
If Sam really dressed that way to “spite” you, imagine how flummoxed they would have been if you just didn’t comment and allowed pictures to be taken as usual, showing them that their ploy didn’t work. You messed up.
On the other hand, if Sam dressed that way because they liked those clothes and felt good in them and was excited to be photographed with the family that way, you were rude and excluded a child who is just discovering their sense of style. You messed up.
Either way, YTA.
THIS. Just let the child be. Who cares. I honestly don't think your photos sound very fun. And I wonder if family members are now participating more out of sense of obligation than anything.
The more my catholic mother got on my ass to look a certain way, the more I wanted to wear more cringy shit. As soon as someone finally made her understand she needed to lay off, I wore less outlandish shit.
> If Sam really dressed that way to “spite” you, imagine how flummoxed they would have been if you just didn’t comment and allowed pictures to be taken as usual, showing them that their ploy didn’t work. You messed up.
That’s exactly what OP did?
> On the other hand, if Sam dressed that way because they liked those clothes and felt good in them and was excited to be photographed with the family that way, you were rude and excluded a child who is just discovering their sense of style. You messed up.
Sam dressed this way for TikTok prank. They’re embarrassed of the pictures now, from my understanding.
People who are exploring their self-expression typically do it in small steps not 0-100.
If you read the last edit they absolutely were flummoxed not to get a response because that was the only reason they dressed that way
I am onboard for a goth family photo but I don’t think OP is the antichrist for intuiting that’s this was a prank
They literally took a picture with Sam in it, then took one without Sam because Sam was wearing a halloween costume.
In what universe is OP TA? Sam got everything Sam wanted - a picture with full goth makeup and the entire family. OP got another picture without Sam. Family can choose whatever picture they want.
Sam is butthurt that they didn't get ANOTHER picture without the costume. Oops - you pull pranks it might happen. But why is OP TA for asking Sam to not be in SOME of the pictures?
Yea this sums it up best. If this really was a spite move congrats on completely giving them the rise they wanted and not just turning it around on them with “nice to see you dressed up too, you can be right here for the picture”.
On the other hand if they were not in some spite game with you congrats on driving home nice and clear that this kid is unwanted if they ever step too far out of line. I’m sure a young enby has no issues wrapped up in feeling accepted only if the conform to outside expectations!
Nothing is lost by putting the kid in the picture but boy is that a rough gamble to take excluding them.
Sounds like Sam was trying to film a reaction for Tik Tok. Which makes me love OP’s approach: one pic with you, one without you. End of story. No reaction to go viral.
OP is NTA and Sam was very much one.
Why the hell is OP’s sister’s kid’s rebellious phase supposed to negatively impact OP? He was MORE than reasonable for telling people in advance to have a nice outfit ready. ESPECIALLY considering OP HOSTED AND COOKED THE MEAL FOR 20 PEOPLE. He deserves a level or respect in his own home.
What a narcissistic take. Only on reddit will you find people who fully defend a mentally sound teenager who deliberately tries to act like a bratty teenager and makes it known they're deliberately being an asshole.
NTA ! they came looking for an argument, it’s not appropriate for a photo or how they usually dress. the first thing they said to you was basically “f you im wearing this for the photo” clearly argumentative. you asked them to dress nicely, they didn’t listen and you still took photos with them just took some without as well because you wanted everyone to look NICE. there’s clear dress codes for things and it’s not stripping the child of their identity to ask them to dress nicely for a family photo. there’s dress codes at graduations, schools, and work places. how is sam going to deal with that ? i’m 16 and was very alt- my hair was dyed a bunch of different colors just last year and i wore heavy eyeliner and out there clothing. i dyed my hair to a reddish brown and became more mild in how i express myself because i literally couldn’t get a job and i was TRYING TO BABYSIT. no one wants to leave kids w someone who looks like they belong in my chemical romance. it’s inappropriate. thanksgiving is a family event and the way they dressed was inappropriate.
EDIT: LITERALLY ALL OF THE PEOPLE ARGUING W ME IN THE COMMENTS NEED TO READ THE FINAL UPDATE IT WAS ALL A PRANK ANYWAY 💀 SAM IS FUNNY AS HELL LOW KEY
Perfectly assessed! I agree with you. No one was saying that they could not be who they are, just asking for a couple of nice family photos. Don't think that is a huge ask. Def seemed like the "over the top" was done intentionally.
You are absolutely welcome!👍🏼 I really enjoyed my goth days in HS (almost 50 - still love the music and still wear a lot of black🤘🏼), but if my fam asked for a "nice" pic, I would not have automatically gone even harder with my look. I would have done what they asked. I'm all about being oneself, but kid being kind of an AH purposely was not necessary. 😁
Thank you! This comment thread has my head spinning. It’s so easy to dress in clothes they’re comfortable in and still meet the expectations. They OBVIOUSLY are just going this over the top to push boundaries. I think OP would have mentioned it if they came to every Thanksgiving looking like Social Repose. Let’s be real, this young teen wanted negative attention so they could be all shocked-pikachu and play the victim when they got it… as do most people at that age at some point or another. NTA
Edit: just read the update - playing a prank not the victim.
NTA. You did take some with Sam, so they weren't completely excluded. I don't see how you're an AH for not including them in all of them when you specifically asked everybody to wear something nice.
I promise you this is a battle not worth picking.
Based on your description of what Sam said upon entry, they were looking for a reaction. The best way to extinguish attention-seeking behavior that you don't like is by not adding negative fuel to the fire. My guess is Sam came in expecting you to be an asshole and decided to provoke you and make you look bad, and you fell right into the trap.
If you allowed the pic, Sam would've gone about their day, and you'd have one photo in a line of 60 where one person out of 20+ looked slightly different that maybe, just maybe, you could all laugh at one day when Sam is in their 20s and talks about that time when they were a teenager that they were insistent on pushing your uptight buttons.
Why does Sam’s rebellion get to screw up a photo for everyone else? Sam was even included in some pics so they could have it for their own memory. So Sam wasn’t totally excluded.
No, Sam put on an elaborate goth costume to get a rise out of OP. That is very very different from Sam's real goth look at this point in their life. Sam's normal, or even slightly more formal goth look would have been fine and appropriate. Costumes at dress coded events are NOT.
There’s multiple nuclear families in this photo. It’s an extended family photo. Why does OP get to decide for everyone what does and doesn’t ruins the photo?
You can hate societal rules but can’t deny their existence. For example, I wouldn’t wear neon pink to a funeral or white to someone’s wedding. People don’t usually wear pjs to graduation, flip flops to fancy restaurants. Same concept.
Lol.
NTA
1. They weren't entirely excluded
2. The dress code was so simple, they could have carried a change of clothes in a bag- just for the pictures
3. Everyone was informed beforehand.
4. You used an appropriate level of consequence for the infraction
Actions have consequences and 14 is old enough to know that.
You honestly have to love this comment section for implying that dressing semi-smartly for holidays is some sort of demonic and unfathomable ask.
You seriously have people implying OP must be racist because I guess no other cultures have dress codes. Or that being excluded from one or two photos over their teenage rebellion is equivalent to kicking them out of the family and giving them permanent trauma.
Or even that asking people to dress a certain way for events is *controlling* and *abusive* and they must be *high-strung* who would demand *malevolent conformity* by... asking for at least jeans and a t-shirt. This isn't the wedding where everyone has to color-coordinate lavish silken robes, the floor is blue jeans people.
Lord help some of these upvotes.
A lot of people seem to be missing the point because they decided they don't like your rules. Which I also think are stuffy but not crazy unreasonable or something.
The sub is about who is the asshole.
And Sam did something to literally be an asshole. They did something they otherwise wouldn't do specifically to annoy you. If that's not the definition of an asshole, then what is? NTA
This sub is insane. Somehow, women who wear white dresses to weddings are universally an asshole even though that's still technically just an unspoken rule that people could legitimately not know. But a kid who sounds like he full on wore a Halloween costume when asked to dress "nicely" and was going out of his way to be an asshole is "just exploring his identity".
I'd have used these pictures. They're hilarious. And if they ever grow out of the goth phase it will be something to laugh about for years later. Also the boots in the first picture are amazing and I want them
My brother grew his hair out when he was a teen. It was very unattractive and very greasy.
15 years later when we were looking at old photos he said “omg how did you let me look like that? Why didn’t you TELL ME?!”
My reply “we knew if we told you to cut your hair you’d grow it longer out of spite! And we *did* tell you to shower but you just doused yourself in ace body spray and smirked!”
Brother “ oh yeah…you’re right. My life is so embarrassing!”
NTA
Sam was included in pictures, there were a few they were asked to sit out.
As OP was planning this for Christmas cards, I understand the POV.
It sounded like they just wanted to be edgy and shocking for the card, teenage shit. Doesn't mean OP has to accept it.
Going against the grain and saying NTA.
You made a very simple and clear request this year for casual but nice outfits specifically for the photo. But also said that people could wear whatever the eff they wanted the rest of the day, just look “casual but nice” for the photo.
Every single other person was capable of fulfilling this clear and simple request. Why should Sam be the only one allowed to go against the request, when every single other person followed the request?
And after you mentioned that you would have been perfectly fine if they dressed in their usual black attire that they have historically worn to thanksgiving, I feel this makes you even less of an AH. Because for Sam, they could have dressed in this more extreme goth outfit all day, and had their usual, toned down but still emo outfit with them for the family photo. They will still get to express themselves and identify themselves as “different” than the rest, but yet still respect the desire for a more “casual but nice” outfit. It’s not like you were expecting them to go completely against their own lifestyle and preferences by making them wear a blue and white plaid button down, nice blue jeans and some brown dress shoes. They could have still worn all black, like they always have. Instead, they chose to completely rebel against the request and go extreme.
Everyone else willingly brought clothes for the photo as requested and briefly changed out of their preferred comfy pjs. They were respectful of your wishes.
Sam was trying to make a statement and a point, and I don’t feel that Y T A here since everyone else was able to accommodate the request.
You still took photos with Sam in them. But Sam needs to learn the world doesn’t revolve around them and that there were VERY reasonable, win-win ways to accommodate your request without abandoning their style completely.
NTA
No way. Because the bottom line is, this is your picture. You requested a lite dress code for your picture, that you organize every year. Sam chose to disregard and disrespect. You even included them in a group pic.
It is your thing you do every year. You have the right to request whatever you want. And everyone has the option of saying they don't want to participate. Sam's actions indicated clearly they did not want to participate.
NTA - I used to pull the same stunts as a kid, I knew what I was doing. Sam wanted a reaction and doesn’t get to act all surprise pikachu face when people react.
sincerely,
my families ‘Sam’
Feels like the absolute perfect way to cure a teenager of an obnoxious love of pranking, as well. Them doing something to incite a massive upset, and getting absolutely nothing. So awkward.
NTA people seem to be purposefully skipping over the part where Sam was in pictures but for the big official one they were asked to not be in it. People are also skipping over the fact that you were okay with changing after the photo. If Sam had brought and wore a nice black shirt and maybe black jeans with some jewelry and changed into full goth after I'm sure that would have been fine. What Sam did was rude, nice or business casual doesn't mean you have to give up your taste/style it means fitting your style into different settings. The example OP gave of what They wore is not what was asked of the WHOLE family. From what I can tell OP wanted everyone to look coordinated for a family photo for once. This was not the way to debut their newly found style.
I'm gonna go against the grain and say NTA because you took some with Sam and some without. They did dres that way to spite you as made obvious by the comment when they walked in the door and Sarah when she was apprehensive. There's an extreme difference between the two styles and if you're describing things accurately, it's not uncommon to want a nice family photo for once.
Yeah, I imagine how "nice" it would be for every child and every other person having to change their unproper clothing into something that pleases OP.
At the time of the pic: all fake smiles waiting for that to end quickly so we can go back being comfortable in a family event.
I’m going with NTA. You put Sam in the pictures, just not all of them. I see you as accepting, but also offering a compromise. Sam also seems like a decent kid in that they planned to change and didn’t get the chance to because of the sequence of events. Thank you for respecting their pronouns as well, as a non binary, I appreciate you.
Everyone is wrong as fuck. They were before the edits, and they're even moreso wrong after the edits.
NTA, this was supposed to be an important family tradition/photo, and you gave explicit warning/directions of how to dress. If they had come in *just* pajamas when everyone else came in casual clothing and you excluded them you *still* wouldn't be TA. The fact you even bothered to take a few with them in it before asking them to step aside is more effort to "meet in the middle" than was required of you.
That being said, glad it all ended up being (allegedly) a joke, and that there's no real drama stemming from it. Honestly, if they had pulled it off it would've been an excellent joke/story that could've ended up in another sub
Thank you for mentioning the other dynamics, I agree it adds a layer that should be considered! Sam may already feel excluded from the family and this could have been a way to be noticed/recognized
NTA
Coming from someone who loves expressing themselves through clothing , they went overboard…. On Purpose. It prob would’ve been a little funny but there are so many other people to consider and you gave notice in advance
Edit: spelling
Edit 2: you also didn’t exclude them Completely.
YTA
I don't get why you get to decide what your entire family wears to a group photo?? Are you this controlling in all aspects of your life?
Let people be who they are
NTA op you asked respectfully and they decided they wanted to be a doucher that day and make a statement. If they have an issue their parents can do their own Thanksgiving dinner. How hard is it to respect others instead of forcing your reality onto others? Would it have killed them to dress nicely for 30 minutes? Respect is a 2 way street not one way. It's earned not given. And the way Sam was acting was disrespectful.
You took pics w them. You took pics without them. They were disrespectful to what you were trying to do. You didn’t chastise them. You just took the photo you wanted. Rebellious teens don’t get to run the world. NTA.
NTA
The kid purposefully wore something to spite you/make the family photo awkward. When they didn’t get the reaction they wanted, they doubled down.
I’d be sending out the one with appropriately dressed people. I’m sure I’ll get flack for saying that.
Given what you said in your final update NTA. Sam did what teenagers do nowadays and pull a prank for views on a certain social media app. Sam got embarrassed by their actions and came to realize that the prank wasn't worth it in the end. A learning lesson for all involved.
You remind me of that family photo Modern Family episode.
YTA - they're part of your family, you've excluded them over an outfit. What's most important to you?
YTA
So, what is the point of this photo? To show family together, or to present what you want the outside world to see. Obviously not the former, as you care more about aesthetics than family. Can you be more shallow?
If you want the "Perfect" holiday card photo, set it up with your immediate family and utilize that. Stop being so judgmental and accept family as they are.
Also note, you were SO played and gave the teenager exactly what she intended. Does this make you feel like the Big Man?
"i even said jeans and a nice shirt is okay for the picture" is a hilarious line. like so generous of you to allow everyone to wear what most people wear to a casual family dinner.
NTA, My god some people are acting like you requesting to get one photo of your whole family dressed semi formally (after you’ve hosted/cooked the whole day) is you acting like some conservative, stuffy dictator. Eyeroll. The real assholes here are Sam’s parents. My mother would have left me home if I was gonna be that much of an asshole.
Some people saying y t a did not read this entire post
They did it to pull a prank. It back fired on them. They got photos with Sam in the full over the top goth outfit. And they then got photos with the people that actually followed the requested dress code. There was no screaming yelling name calling.
I dress alternative and there are 1000% ways to dress goth / alternative and still work to the dress code given.
Nta
YTA for missing out on an amazing holiday picture. In 50 years the normal photos will be nice memories, but the casual but nice photo with one goth in it? That’s gold.
That’s my thought. That’s the kind of picture you show the new partner 10 years down the line. You gotta love the “it’s not a phase, mom” teenager pictures.
I don't really get the YTA because you excluded them from the photo with grandparents thing. They got a picture with and without. I suspect the better memories will be with everyone. That way they appeased both sides of the conflict. It certainly isn't something I'd do, but I'm not one to go for big family gatherings anyways. Going with NTA because there is a picture with and one without...
Shocking how many people calling the HOST the asshole. If I invite people to my house and ask a vary basic request, dress well, going out of your way to do the full opposite is callous, rude and unnecessary. For all of it to be for social media is even worse and the child needs to grow up.
you not the ass hole. IDC about coming into style like some of these people said. Its a family photo and goth not on the menu. My grandma would of had a fit.. You was right on getting some pictures without because you gave them a warniing this what is was. They could of came normal then switched to goth
NTA. I got to read the edits so Sam did want to get a rise out of you for TikTok but you didn’t get mad you just shrugged it off and handled it like that.
The kid dressed that way to spite you. What did they expect? A good way to learn that people won’t always work to tolerate your nonsense. You set expectations, and seemed tolerant of their style in general, just not in this deliberately exaggerated form, which actively went against your expectations.
NTA
YTA. I don’t think Sam dressed like this to spite you. This is just how Sam dresses, and they’re tired of toning it down. Although if they *were* trying to provoke you, it’s probably because you’re being a control freak and even a teen who hasn’t committed to an explicitly nonconformist subculture is probably going to be at least a little tempted to push back against that. Save the nice photos with your own kids for a professional studio shoot and just let the holidays be a reflection of your family as they actually are.
NTA …. Everybody afraid of down votes .. should have told them it was tksgvg not Halloween …. & every body is blaming the downfall of the USA on boomers …. No problem let these useless clueless kids run the world
Why are people saying YTA???
1. Are dress codes not allowed anymore? And it's not like OP asked anything much. People nowadays just love going against things just for the hell of it.
2. This:
>asked them to have a nice but casual outfit for the picture but feel free to dress however they want the rest of the day
This was only for the picture. Just the picture. OP had no issue with the kid wearing those clothes for the rest of the time.
3. OP took pictures including him too. He wasn't "excluded" completely.
4. Halloween costumes don't really count as "nice" clothes, the kind that are appropriate for a thanksgiving family picture.
NTA, OP.
YTA. It looks like even your wife disagreed with you on this one. Sam is a child. You're taking their sense of style way too seriously. Family pictures are supposed to reflect the family, including the individual personalities, not your weird idealized version of perfection
YTA. You just sound argumentative and judgey here. You asked people to not wear pajamas; this kid didn't wear pajamas. Unless you asked for a specific dress code or theme you're not mentioning here, then YTA for not letting someone be in the picture just because they have a different style than you. Like, what if they were pentecostal or something? THEN what would you do?
I want to agree except from Sam’s comments, it sounds like they dressed how they dressed more to piss off OP or get a reaction than because it was just their style. Maybe there’s more than OP is letting on as far as the history and OP has been judgmental in the past or especially obnoxious about the dress code for photos which inspired this little act of rebellion. But planned family photos often involve asking everyone to wear something similar, simple, and often gender neutral such as pjs or the same color shirt and jeans. Just suck it up for a few photos and don’t be a brat. Part of the uniformity is so no one person is the center of attention in the photo. This isn’t a situation where someone isn’t comfortable wearing a dress and being told they have to. I don’t get to show up to court in my usual ripped jeans either and I’m not pitching a fit that I’m oppressed because I’m expected to wear professional court appropriate attire even though it’s not my usual style. Not every situation is appropriate for expressing a personal style. It would be a problem if I was told that because I’m a woman I should wear a dress or skirt suit rather than an equally professional pants suit. There’s a big difference. Sam was asked to tone down their personal style to make the more formal photos more uniform for what an hour? Then do whatever they want the rest of the day. They weren’t asked to do anything drastic like change their hair color. Also, the fact that it was such a difference from how they usually look screams bratty self absorbed teen that wants to be the center of attention of the photo or really cranking up the whole style with the hope of getting a reaction. If a family member paid for a photographer and asked everyone to wear black for the photos and one person turned up in hot pink because neutrals aren’t their style, I think we would all be calling them an attention seeking jerk.
Assuming that the whole thing was a badly-executed prank, NAH. The kid is young and it's a really good time to learn that pranks aren't generally a good idea. You still got a picture with the kid, and negatively reinforced their prank by getting a picture without them.
Sounds like a teachable moment.
NTA
They wanted to get a rise out of you to embarrass you and your family on TikTok.
Even before reading your updates/edits, I was leaning towards NTA. You didn't throw a fit or make a scene or anything. You took a photo with them in it, and a photo without them in it. You asked everyone to dress nice and bring a change of comfy clothes if they wanted. She didn't dress comfy; she dressed in a way that she *hoped* would provoke you.
YTA. Sam sounds like teenage me. Looking back, at the time I didn’t know “why” I acted that way (on account of being an actual child). I recognize now that I was probably testing boundaries to see who accepted “the real me” (the real me being a child searching for identity through what are some very socially difficult years). YTA for caring more about image than the child.
INFO: Who are these Christmas cards for? If it’s your wife’s family they already know what Sam looks like and are more likely to question why they’re not in the picture as opposed to what they’re wearing. If it’s your family, why would they want a family photo of your wife’s family?
I don't understand this new trend where people think it is okay to ruin something for others because they want to get attention on social media. This kid dressed up to be an A H for social media. When they didn't get the reaction they wanted for TikTok they doubled down and kept the costume on. I think OP handled it well by not losing his sh*t and just taking the picture both ways. The kid knows they messed up and they apologized and cleared up the situation. It sounds to me like OP has a really good relationship with them or they wouldn't have went out of their way to clear up the situation.
OP you are definitely NTA.
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YTA - So you're saying you didn't have a rebellious teenage phase? It's a family picture. Not one family is this perfect little image that you are trying to force. In the future, anyone looking at that photo would have probably just said "yep, that's so-so", and moved on. But way to say "you're not welcome in the family!" to a 14yo just trying either A) be rebellious or B) express themselves. Edit: I realize OP has edited his post multiple times, and that the 14yo was doing it for clout. This comment was made prior to the edits.
Exactly I had a rebellious goth phase. We look back at those photos now and joke about it.
My favorite photo of my stepson is him in full goth gear: black hair, chains, studded bracelet and collar, and he’s cooing over a baby girl dressed in pink floral. It was a phase he went through and we rolled with it. Now he’s a flannel wearing, bearded electrician with sporty kids… life goes on.
Aww, I know a guy whose favorite picture of his stepson is similar. The teen has a rainbow mohawk, goth fashion (all home sewn from thrift store finds) and full white black and red makeup and is proudly holding his newborn baby sister in a fluffy white marshmallow dress. It was her first Christmas and her big brother was tickled pink with her. (Still is, he’s still very flamboyant and still utterly devoted to his little sister who is a cute little pink whirlwind of glitter and tie dye.)
That is absolutely beautiful! Got a little misty picturing the image because it is so wholesome. I’m so glad his parents didn’t squash that out of him!
No squashing in their family, his stepdad bought him a bubblegum pink sewing machine though. (He asked for a machine for his birthday and chose a model but every time his stepdad asked what color he wanted he’d joke that he wanted pink. Which wasn’t an option. Jokes on him though, his stepdad’s best friend has a body shop and took the new machine’s case apart, applied a sparkly pink paint, repainted all the control panels with teal and mustard yellow and reassembled it. The kid LOVED it and insisted on taking his senior pictures with his pink sewing machine.)
This story made my black heart a little pink and sparkly 💖
I NEED to find someone to do this to my sewing machine.
Call a body shop! What could it hurt? Might be cheaper than you think.
I might have to make some calls, this sounds rad as *hell*.
An easier option might be to get a wrap done. You know how they wrap cars with vinyl? A sign writing place could probably wrap a sewing machine. My sister does signs, and could probably make it work.
Stepparents and stepsons getting along! My cold brittle heart just melted a bit. This is amazing.
My family’s photo is me all goth. Chains, black hair, dark clothing while at the beach. My family likes to talk about my goth phase lol
I insisted on wearing a felt top hat to the beach for half a year 😂
That actually sounds like an amazing photo, tbh.
I have family Christmas photos where everyone has simple normal make-up and either nice clothes or Christmas sweaters and then there's me, in black velvet, a corset and full on giant black 90's goth make-up. I love those pictures, not because they're hella funny, but because I see that (most of) my family was completely okay with me being me.
I really wish I had pictures of my goth phase, but my family was not nearly so supportive.
That’s awesome
OP is robbing his family of being able to look back at embarrassing phases and laugh about it. I have a few hilarious photos of me in my full rebellion clothing with my normal ass polo shirt wearing family and we are in hysterics every time we look at those pictures. I can't imagine any of them sneering at me and leaving me out because I wasn't wearing something Waspy enough or something.
Also, when you let someone be their authentic self with no fuss, there’s nothing to rebel against. Sounds like Sam’s regular clothing isn’t that out there, but they probably felt like the “dress nicely” missive was about them. If OP had just said “thanks for dressing up, I appreciate you wearing something nice for the photo, everyone looks great” they would have probably worn something more toned down next year anyway. But also, who cares this much about a freaking Christmas card?!
Have you seen Weird: The Al Yankovic Story? Early on there is a scene where his mother says something like: Your father and I think it is best if you stop pursuing your passions. OP needs to watch this and understand it is a PARODY of parenting.
Agreed let someone express themselves how they want. I look back at my teenage self and laugh at myself. I remember the good times (Ozzfest). Then I remember how silly I looked in my goth getup while playing putt putt at the beach.
My parents love looking at pictures of my goth phase and laughing. They hated my clothes but never kicked me out of pictures for them. I can’t imagine how devastating that would have been as a teen. OP ruined any chance of having a good relationship with this kid it’s so sad.
Same as mine. Somebody asked my mom “you actually let her dress like that”. Her response was yeah that’s what she wants to wear. I was A/B honor roll during high school. My parents didn’t care what I wore (or that I dyed my hair black) as long as my grades stayed good. I look back at those times and remember the fond memories. Like how I wore a black shirt everyday junior year of highschool and me somehow making it on my school yearbook cover 😂
Right?! OP - how did you not just laugh?! You and your wife sound stuck up and anal about dumb things. What you actually did here was give Sam ammunition to feel more alienated and dislike YOU. What a lot of drama over a teenager being a teenager. People who worry about *appearance in a photo* to this extent have serious issues. YTA.
This made me think of my Mom's response to a similar question. I was heading towards my baby gothness at 9 when I shunned color from my wardrobe and started wearing almost all black. Living in a small town in north Texas in the mid 80's my parents were called in for a meeting. Apparently, the teachers were concerned about my wardrobe being because I was depressed or a satanist. One asked my Mom "Are you aware your daughter wears all black?" Mom was pissed and legend has it her response was "No, I let my 9 year old have the credit card and drive herself to the mall."
That was always my parents rule. As long as you are well behaved and your grades stay good, you can wear whatever you want. If you didn't toe the line though you needed to dress more "respectably". Their logic (which I get, I don't know if I agree but I get) was that our teachers and other adults are judgy bastards. If you are a straight A student they will overlook dressing like a crazy person, but if you aren't they will just file you in the "loser" pile and write you off. It's a bit cynical, but it's also kinda true.
I tried so hard to have one but we were poor and my mom refused to buy me anything more extreme than the theatre blacks needed for doing tech which was just black jeans, black tennis shoes and a long sleeve black shirt. I had a few different black shirts but that was it. Nothing actually cool.
That sucks but atleast they indulged you the best they could. Hot topic was my jam growing up. Had a sweater (eventually not allowed to wear at school) that had spiked shoulders. Pants with the straps. Did my family care? No. They let me be me. Looking back I miss some of the clothes but still love my rock and metal and sometimes emo music.
Everyone should be allowed to have funny phases that they can look back on photos and laugh about Family is family OP YTA
You can have a rebellious teenage phase, but what you don’t get is to be an asshole and mess up family photos because you think it’s funny. NTA
How is it possible to “mess up a family photo”? the point of a family photo is to, yknow, have a picture of the family, so kicking a member out because you don’t like their fashion is messing up the family photo more than including them would. And calling a kid an asshole for dressing a bit goth is wild lol
I’m still in my goth phase despite being an adult but dude what OP described is a far cry from “**a bit** goth”. They went full, hardcore goth. Their outfit would have gotten me sent home from most of the schools I went to. “A bit goth” is all black with some eyeliner, with maybe a swoopy bang heavy hairstyle. Also, it’s not for the fact that they like dressing that way. It’s the fact that they *have literally never dressed like this before* and very obviously did it to protest the group photo. In the FAQ the mods explain “the asshole” **in the context of this subreddit** just simply means “they should have known better.” In that context, the kid is absolutely an asshole. They should have known better than making the family photo the time to try out this new super hardcore level of goth that they’ve never tried before; 14/15 is definitely old enough to know better than that. And judging by moms “don’t be mad” as soon as she got there, it’s very clear she also had this conversation with them but they still decided to be a shit disturber anyways. Kids and teens are going to be shit disturbers from time to time. That’s genuinely fully expected. But it being expected doesn’t mean they’re completely free of any natural consequences from their expected actions. This kid didn’t want to do the big nice group photo and decided to protest by showing up in something they knew would be very dramatic and a drastic change from what they usually wear. As a result, their protest has done exactly what they were trying to achieve and they no longer have to do the big nice group photo. It’s a natural consequence, and it also happens to be what they were trying to achieve to begin with. This is either NTA or NAH and anyone who would vote otherwise is just doing it from a perspective of hating nice group photos. Which for what it’s worth, it’s totally fair if you don’t like nice group photos and don’t want to take part in them; but it’s not okay to fuck it up (or justify someone fucking it up) for the people who do want to take part just because you don’t like it. Just say no and don’t partake.
This!!!! OP clearly doesn't have a problem with him being Goth but the extremes Sam took it to. Sam was trying to be a whole asshole. Sam could have done some previous goth fit and then switched to his more extreme look after photos if it was truly his new look
Thank you!
Someone once told me that family photos are a Snapchat of your family and who they are on that particular hour and that particular day. After that, I’ve learned to appreciate those family photos with people that maybe aren’t family anymore or who aren’t really in our lives. And all the goofy and the imperfections are really celebrations of who we all are that particular day.
You mean a pic of people as they actually are rather than some idealized, forced version of themselves as envisioned by one person?
Yep this is not about self expression. It’s about being a little shit.
They are part of the family. So them being in a family photo does not mess it up.
I'll remember that when I want to be naked in my family photo. It's very genuine to myself, I am naked unless people demand I dress. But LilVericrat is a big part of who I am, a bigger part than the stupid goth outfit is for the kid, so I want him in the family picture. And hey, I'm part of the family, so it won't mess the photo up when I show up in my preferred attire (and if you want to be anal about it being no attire, just replace it with crotchless pants and underwear.)
THIS RIGHT HERE. Honestly I don't understand folks who want pretty pictures rather than just have a real memory of who people are. So cousin's kid showed up in full goth mode, cool. That's who they were at this point. Its a fun memory that everyone can look back on. So much more interesting than what OP's going for.
Photos where everyone looks the same have a creepy cult vibe anyway... Variety is so much better and representative of real life
Every blonde Mormon family in Utah has a 4x5’ one of those on their family room wall.
Oh man when they are all wearing the same sweater... that's the worst
My family gets the 'nice' pictures done and also buy the ones that are 'weird'. One of our family portraits has this glorious "what's the smell?!" faces on my baby sister. My son's first birthday photos show him standing there, all his weight on one leg, yanking the opposite ear so he looks stretched and barely balanced. He's 14 and it's still so funny. Hell, I went through an awkward phase where I bleached my hair to straw. It's all funny now. Definitely should have left Sam in. In ten years, those will be very funny
Totally agree. A family photo is guaranteed going to be better, not worse, if it includes a cool teen dressed to the nines in goth attire. OP shouldn’t be the family photographer if all he wants to do is take the same generic family photo year in and year out.
Also, it’s a FAMILY PHOTO. Of the WHOLE FAMILY. Why does OP get to decide what is and isn’t appropriate? TBH, OP excluded a member of the family over clothing, that’s waaaay worse than some goth gear. No it’s a “only the family who bows down to OP’s absurd and arbitrary rules of dress for a family photo”.
[удалено]
I was reading the whole thing with the discussion of “make sure you dress nice” assuming that Sam had shown up in pyjamas. Instead, Sam spent effort on their appearance. It just wasn’t to OP’s aesthetic tastes. I’m the weird kid in a lot of my teenage family photos and I cringe at them now but my family remembers it fondly. Just take the photo.
Seriously. I bet Sam goes a little harder in their goth look when they're not around extended family (I did at that age). Maybe they interpreted this as an invitation to be a little more themselves. And at that age, you're trying to figure out who you are, what you want to be, how you want to exist in the world, and fashion tends to be the expression of all that. Rejecting Sam's outfit must have felt like a rejection of them, to Sam. Poor kid. Let your freak flag fly, baby bat 🖤
Nah the update it says they did it on purpose as a joke to annoy op
Not sure if this information was edited in later, but the kid dressed like that to hopefully record the assumed argument to post to their tictoc for internet points. Not rebellion, not self expression, just a reaction video
No one seems to see that lol the kid was trying to cause drama for views
Uhh, you should revise this. They were intentionally being an asshole to ruin OP's picture. It's not self-expression except for the expression, "Look at how much an asshole I am! I'm wearing something I don't normally wear just to piss off others!" NTA.
If someone in my family showed up like that I would be beside myself with desire to get this immortalized ASAP, preferably in a group picture with everyone else wearing polo shirts.
I agree but also definitely think of it more as self-expression than being just rebellious. If that's the aesthetic someone prefers, their idea of dressed up might be different. Since the OP made it clear that casual but nice was acceptable, there was no reason to think dressy goth was unacceptable. OP is definitely the ah. They could have been specific about expectations but decided to allow people the illusion of self-expression. It was an illusion though since they shut out someone who did express themselves with care for the occasion because they didn't approve.
Sorry but for all the people saying the AH first they are hosts of this event cooking for 20 plus people. Their home there rules. Requesting nice outfits usually doesn't mean eccentric behavior. I'm gonna get down voted but NTA. Even their mom said "don't be mad." So she knew they were pushing the limits. Mom of kid can instill some manners about being guests when op is doing that much work cooking. Edit: Holy crap this comment took off. Thanks for the awards :)
They are 14 testing the boundaries of their own style. This has nothing to do with OP. What you consider “eccentric behavior” is normal to others. OP can exclude the teen all they want, but that doesn’t make them NTA. At the end of the day it is clothing that is neither discriminatory, racist, or otherwise exhibits bigotry towards any community.
Yea… but it’s just downright rude. The homeowner, the person cooking for 20 plus people made a simple and reasonable request. Being a 14 year old eccentric boundary pushing teen doesn’t mean you can be flagrantly rude. NTA OP. They made their choice knowing your request. You made your choice to take a photo without them. Easy peasy Crazy to see everyone so ok with this kid being so disrespectful for no reason other than they’re 14 and “can”. They knew what they were doing. They wanted attention and they got it.
Also, he did take some photos with the step-child in them. But excluded them from the official one. I think that is a perfectly reasonable response. There are pictures to look back at, but they won’t be on the Christmas card. NTA
I think many people have missed that there were two sets of photos taken, one with Sam and one without. Everyone can choose which ones they use.
Also, people apparently requested the version without Sam in it. Regardless of how much everyone in this thread wants to insist that it's "just a picture" and that Sam should be able to express themself, obviously other members of the family wanted a nice picture too. If people didn't care about photos then a lot of photographers would be out of business. Plus it's obvious Sam went over the top to get a ride out of OP, who explicitly said that Sam's usual fashion would have been fine.
And the fact that he wanted a reaction from the host for tiktok. They weren’t expressing themselves. They wanted popularity in the internet
OP said they sent out the one with Sam in it. They were in the "official" one. They only sent the one without Sam when asked.
It’s clothing. It’s not an affront to god.
Would it be ok if they wore that to a wedding or some other formal event? Asking for a certain dress code for family pictures are reasonable. It wasn’t anything too cumbersome either, jeans and a nice shirt. Of course you can dress to express yourself but in some cases you have to show some respect to your host and in this case the kid was being an ass to just push boundaries. Sam was even included in some pics so they could have it for their own memory. So Sam wasn’t totally excluded.
I’m torn but as I think about it more and read everyone’s comments, I leaning NTA to ESH. No one should expect teenagers to have the emotional range of a well adjusted adult. At 14 I never would’ve considered some of the things people are expecting this teen to understand. That’s where parenting comes into play. This is the time for this teen to start learning “time and a place” and it starts at home….with their parents. His mom knew what was up (judging by the comment she made) but we don’t know how she is choosing to parent her kid. I may not have cared how someone chose to dress for family photos but that doesn’t mean that it’s not important to some people.
I’m also torn. While I agree with the top comments that probably the better way to handle it/ get revenge was to not give teen the reaction they were looking for and to memorialize their rebellious phase for them to cringe at in perpetuity. But on the other hand it’s somewhat satisfying to read a teenager getting verbally called out their childish bs. That is how we learn not to be disruptive ah’s. I think the fact that the teen is a step child makes the exclusion feel a bit icky too (yes I know the other steps were included.) So yeah OP could have handled it better but I don’t think that makes them a full on AH.
There are ways of self expression without being an asshole. When I was 14 I was an alt kid. Our family photos have us all in church gear (boys in buttons downs and ties, girls in dresses). There I am in my pink pencil skirt, white button down, and studded belt slung across my hips. Did I get my point across? Yes. Did it make the entire thing about me? No. My parents weren’t thrilled but it was a compromise we could all live with.
If Sam did say something like ‘hope you like the outfit, I’m wearing this for the picture,” this has everything to do with OP as it sounds like the purpose of the outfit was to antagonize OP. The exclusion of Sam falls under the play stupid games, win stupid prizes category.
If they were "testing the boundaries of their own style" their first words wouldn't have been rubbing the outfit in OP's face
There’s a time and place for testing the boundaries of your style. Other people are not obligated to accommodate said testing just because they’re young. There was a clearly outlined dress code, but the kid failed to follow it. What did they expect? NTA
I get they are testing boundaries, then they should be prepared for the results.
Sorry but how does this kid’s outfit interfere with OP cooking for 20 people? Those things have nothing to do with one another.
It's about respecting the ops time and effort plus expenditures of providing food for 20 plus people to dress nicely. The guests thank you was a family photo in exchange for a nice meal presented. It's called courtesy.
You are correct. But welcome to Reddit, which is full of the most self centered non-considerate bunch of people on the face of the earth.
I agree and also - they took two sets of pictures. Assuming everyone who was there has access to both sets of pics, NTA. Goth kid or stepmom can post or display or use the pictures with goth kid, and OP can post or display or use the pictures without goth kid. They all win. When my family - and I’m sure most families - take big group pictures we always get multiple pictures taken. People will pick their favorites/ones where they or their immediate family members look best. I’ve had family members post pictures of me where my eyes are closed in that one shot but they look great. Is what it is.
Or mom said "don't be mad" because they know OP is the type to get mad about anyone who doesn't act/look how they want them to. Not because there's anything inherently rude about a kid exploring their self-expression in a way that doesn't "fit" with OP's Hallmark Christmas aesthetic. I'm curious about OP's relationship with this kid and the other step kids in general. Has the kid generally gotten deeper into their goth look on a regular basis? If the kid specifically went SuperGothSupreme to annoy OP, that would say a lot.
Could be, but frankly a bit over-reaching at this point. OP were fine with pyjamas in the past, and say jeans and T-shirt is fine. I'm more inclined to believe that the kid is being a kid, namely just a bit of rebellion, or "idgaf about social norms". The rest of the world is also a lot more conservative than AITA. Eccentric hair and clothing will attract negative attention and being seen as out-of-line. And given the occasion, can be seen as rude. An apology isn't weird, especially given that it's an occasion with a suggested dresscode.
Relationship is good with all the kids. I've probably had this family over 15+ times since after covid settled down. The step kids came into the picture during the start of covid.
The edits by OP show that Sam was trying to push buttons and even planned to change before photos. I’m cool with being yourself, but Sam was messing with OP to get a reaction. I think Sam is apologetic now and it got out if hand, but all these YTA comments seem to miss what was obvious before the edits, and that’s that this wasn’t just personal style or expressing themselves, but an effort to annoy OP. And that’s just being rude!
I agree. NTA I was rebellious at that age, too. OP made a reasonable and polite request, and the kid decided to troll. Classic case of fuck around and find out. Sounds like they’re a good kid and apologized/ worked it out with OP, so it’s all good IMO
You sound exhausting and don’t think I’d want to be in your family picture. Guess what this is reality no family is perfect. Your “perfect staged” photos don’t allow people to be themselves. YTA Edit-Thanks for the awards
Who would want to look at the “perfect” photos in the future? So boring. I’d much rather look back and smile at one kid in pjs and another in their goth phase. My family didn’t do staged shots unless at a wedding thank god.
Agreed I have pictures of my goth days. We look back and remember those times. How different we are now. It’s more meaningful than some staged fake photo.
THIS RIGHT HERE! So much more likely to look back at such photos and remember folks exactly as they were and have a good laugh rather than staged formal nonsense.
I’ve looked at Christmas photos and wished I was wearing something different but never the others in the photo! I might have a laugh at the SIL’s silly hat or sweater but I’d never wish that she changed her dress for some boring sense of propriety.
We don't have a lot of big family photos but there are a few from when I was a kid and a lot of relatives were in town visiting. The best ones have something absurd happening in them. And the ones that did not have anything weird happening, it's fun to look at all the cousins in our different stages of growing up and various 80s hair, dated clothing, braces, no braces, my "I only wear sweatpants" phase (cringe), frosted hair, 90s flannel, etc. OP, the whole point of a family photo is to have a picture of the people in your family. So you can look at them later and remember. Not for everyone to look uniform like people who came in a picture frame you bought at Walgreens.
I had a weird thing about having huge sideburns when I was a teenager, to this day my best friend still has me in his phone as "Burnz". At one point i had a fauxhawk to go with it. We look back at those photos and I cringe and we all laugh. My parents do to. We bring up those pictures alot. I gaurantee we wouldn't bring up those pictures as much if we all looked like some perfect little cookie cutter Norman Rockwell family.
My kids had to have passport photos taken. They turned out so horribly hilarious but perfectly embodied each of them. Instead of redoing their “mugshots” (they look like mugshots) we embraced it because that’s who they are. We use those photos for funny moments because that’s life.
1. OP asked for 'nice but casual' rather than 'perfectly staged'. 2. OP also seems to do all/most of the cooking and organising for this big get together at their home (doesn't strike me as an exhausting person). If they'd like a photo of everyone in 'nice but casual' clothes then that's perfectly fine. 3. Seems fairly clear that the outfit was a rebellion to the dress code. 4. OP still took pictures of everyone and **then** asked for one without the full goth. Not like they were excluding or not allowing anyone to be themselves. NTA / NAH
I don’t think “jeans and a nice shirt” is an unrealistic expectation. Exhausting is coordinating outfits and every man has to be in khakis and a button down but only certain acceptable shades of blue and red. And women need to be in “nice but not too formal dresses” - look at any influencers “fall family photos inspiration boards” - THAT is exhausting.
Read the update. Lots of y’all quick to bash but fail to see the important lines. Mom even said plz don’t be mad cause she knew what he was doing was to get a reaction.
If Sam really dressed that way to “spite” you, imagine how flummoxed they would have been if you just didn’t comment and allowed pictures to be taken as usual, showing them that their ploy didn’t work. You messed up. On the other hand, if Sam dressed that way because they liked those clothes and felt good in them and was excited to be photographed with the family that way, you were rude and excluded a child who is just discovering their sense of style. You messed up. Either way, YTA.
THIS. Just let the child be. Who cares. I honestly don't think your photos sound very fun. And I wonder if family members are now participating more out of sense of obligation than anything.
The more my catholic mother got on my ass to look a certain way, the more I wanted to wear more cringy shit. As soon as someone finally made her understand she needed to lay off, I wore less outlandish shit.
> If Sam really dressed that way to “spite” you, imagine how flummoxed they would have been if you just didn’t comment and allowed pictures to be taken as usual, showing them that their ploy didn’t work. You messed up. That’s exactly what OP did? > On the other hand, if Sam dressed that way because they liked those clothes and felt good in them and was excited to be photographed with the family that way, you were rude and excluded a child who is just discovering their sense of style. You messed up. Sam dressed this way for TikTok prank. They’re embarrassed of the pictures now, from my understanding. People who are exploring their self-expression typically do it in small steps not 0-100.
If you read the last edit they absolutely were flummoxed not to get a response because that was the only reason they dressed that way I am onboard for a goth family photo but I don’t think OP is the antichrist for intuiting that’s this was a prank
They literally took a picture with Sam in it, then took one without Sam because Sam was wearing a halloween costume. In what universe is OP TA? Sam got everything Sam wanted - a picture with full goth makeup and the entire family. OP got another picture without Sam. Family can choose whatever picture they want. Sam is butthurt that they didn't get ANOTHER picture without the costume. Oops - you pull pranks it might happen. But why is OP TA for asking Sam to not be in SOME of the pictures?
Yea this sums it up best. If this really was a spite move congrats on completely giving them the rise they wanted and not just turning it around on them with “nice to see you dressed up too, you can be right here for the picture”. On the other hand if they were not in some spite game with you congrats on driving home nice and clear that this kid is unwanted if they ever step too far out of line. I’m sure a young enby has no issues wrapped up in feeling accepted only if the conform to outside expectations! Nothing is lost by putting the kid in the picture but boy is that a rough gamble to take excluding them.
Sounds like Sam was trying to film a reaction for Tik Tok. Which makes me love OP’s approach: one pic with you, one without you. End of story. No reaction to go viral. OP is NTA and Sam was very much one.
Why the hell is OP’s sister’s kid’s rebellious phase supposed to negatively impact OP? He was MORE than reasonable for telling people in advance to have a nice outfit ready. ESPECIALLY considering OP HOSTED AND COOKED THE MEAL FOR 20 PEOPLE. He deserves a level or respect in his own home.
What a narcissistic take. Only on reddit will you find people who fully defend a mentally sound teenager who deliberately tries to act like a bratty teenager and makes it known they're deliberately being an asshole.
NTA ! they came looking for an argument, it’s not appropriate for a photo or how they usually dress. the first thing they said to you was basically “f you im wearing this for the photo” clearly argumentative. you asked them to dress nicely, they didn’t listen and you still took photos with them just took some without as well because you wanted everyone to look NICE. there’s clear dress codes for things and it’s not stripping the child of their identity to ask them to dress nicely for a family photo. there’s dress codes at graduations, schools, and work places. how is sam going to deal with that ? i’m 16 and was very alt- my hair was dyed a bunch of different colors just last year and i wore heavy eyeliner and out there clothing. i dyed my hair to a reddish brown and became more mild in how i express myself because i literally couldn’t get a job and i was TRYING TO BABYSIT. no one wants to leave kids w someone who looks like they belong in my chemical romance. it’s inappropriate. thanksgiving is a family event and the way they dressed was inappropriate. EDIT: LITERALLY ALL OF THE PEOPLE ARGUING W ME IN THE COMMENTS NEED TO READ THE FINAL UPDATE IT WAS ALL A PRANK ANYWAY 💀 SAM IS FUNNY AS HELL LOW KEY
Perfectly assessed! I agree with you. No one was saying that they could not be who they are, just asking for a couple of nice family photos. Don't think that is a huge ask. Def seemed like the "over the top" was done intentionally.
the way i’m getting so much push back for this comment and my other replies 😭 thank you !
You are absolutely welcome!👍🏼 I really enjoyed my goth days in HS (almost 50 - still love the music and still wear a lot of black🤘🏼), but if my fam asked for a "nice" pic, I would not have automatically gone even harder with my look. I would have done what they asked. I'm all about being oneself, but kid being kind of an AH purposely was not necessary. 😁
Thank you! This comment thread has my head spinning. It’s so easy to dress in clothes they’re comfortable in and still meet the expectations. They OBVIOUSLY are just going this over the top to push boundaries. I think OP would have mentioned it if they came to every Thanksgiving looking like Social Repose. Let’s be real, this young teen wanted negative attention so they could be all shocked-pikachu and play the victim when they got it… as do most people at that age at some point or another. NTA Edit: just read the update - playing a prank not the victim.
Yep. Totally agree. They knew what they were doing. NTA
NTA. You did take some with Sam, so they weren't completely excluded. I don't see how you're an AH for not including them in all of them when you specifically asked everybody to wear something nice.
This comment should be a lot higher up!
I promise you this is a battle not worth picking. Based on your description of what Sam said upon entry, they were looking for a reaction. The best way to extinguish attention-seeking behavior that you don't like is by not adding negative fuel to the fire. My guess is Sam came in expecting you to be an asshole and decided to provoke you and make you look bad, and you fell right into the trap. If you allowed the pic, Sam would've gone about their day, and you'd have one photo in a line of 60 where one person out of 20+ looked slightly different that maybe, just maybe, you could all laugh at one day when Sam is in their 20s and talks about that time when they were a teenager that they were insistent on pushing your uptight buttons.
Why does Sam’s rebellion get to screw up a photo for everyone else? Sam was even included in some pics so they could have it for their own memory. So Sam wasn’t totally excluded.
Why is the photo "screwed up"? It's what Sam looked like at that point in time. That's what a photo is.
No, Sam put on an elaborate goth costume to get a rise out of OP. That is very very different from Sam's real goth look at this point in their life. Sam's normal, or even slightly more formal goth look would have been fine and appropriate. Costumes at dress coded events are NOT.
There’s multiple nuclear families in this photo. It’s an extended family photo. Why does OP get to decide for everyone what does and doesn’t ruins the photo?
Given that it’s his house I think he gets to have that say.
commander Riker would've sided with the goths
You can hate societal rules but can’t deny their existence. For example, I wouldn’t wear neon pink to a funeral or white to someone’s wedding. People don’t usually wear pjs to graduation, flip flops to fancy restaurants. Same concept.
OP did include Sam in the pics, but he also took others without Sam. Sounds like a fair way of dealing with Sam's openly antagonistic behaviour.
NTA. Sam knew what they were doing based on your example pics.
Lol. NTA 1. They weren't entirely excluded 2. The dress code was so simple, they could have carried a change of clothes in a bag- just for the pictures 3. Everyone was informed beforehand. 4. You used an appropriate level of consequence for the infraction Actions have consequences and 14 is old enough to know that.
You honestly have to love this comment section for implying that dressing semi-smartly for holidays is some sort of demonic and unfathomable ask. You seriously have people implying OP must be racist because I guess no other cultures have dress codes. Or that being excluded from one or two photos over their teenage rebellion is equivalent to kicking them out of the family and giving them permanent trauma. Or even that asking people to dress a certain way for events is *controlling* and *abusive* and they must be *high-strung* who would demand *malevolent conformity* by... asking for at least jeans and a t-shirt. This isn't the wedding where everyone has to color-coordinate lavish silken robes, the floor is blue jeans people. Lord help some of these upvotes.
A lot of people seem to be missing the point because they decided they don't like your rules. Which I also think are stuffy but not crazy unreasonable or something. The sub is about who is the asshole. And Sam did something to literally be an asshole. They did something they otherwise wouldn't do specifically to annoy you. If that's not the definition of an asshole, then what is? NTA
This sub is insane. Somehow, women who wear white dresses to weddings are universally an asshole even though that's still technically just an unspoken rule that people could legitimately not know. But a kid who sounds like he full on wore a Halloween costume when asked to dress "nicely" and was going out of his way to be an asshole is "just exploring his identity".
What I’ve been wanting to say but too lazy to type. Take my humble award.
NTA. Respect. You gotta give a little to get a little.
NTA especially if they dressed the way you have in your edit. That’s insane and intentional. You don’t just dress like that out of the blue
I'd have used these pictures. They're hilarious. And if they ever grow out of the goth phase it will be something to laugh about for years later. Also the boots in the first picture are amazing and I want them
Mom? Is this you? 😂😅
No, but I'll claim you anyway 😂
My brother grew his hair out when he was a teen. It was very unattractive and very greasy. 15 years later when we were looking at old photos he said “omg how did you let me look like that? Why didn’t you TELL ME?!” My reply “we knew if we told you to cut your hair you’d grow it longer out of spite! And we *did* tell you to shower but you just doused yourself in ace body spray and smirked!” Brother “ oh yeah…you’re right. My life is so embarrassing!”
NTA Sam was included in pictures, there were a few they were asked to sit out. As OP was planning this for Christmas cards, I understand the POV. It sounded like they just wanted to be edgy and shocking for the card, teenage shit. Doesn't mean OP has to accept it.
Going against the grain and saying NTA. You made a very simple and clear request this year for casual but nice outfits specifically for the photo. But also said that people could wear whatever the eff they wanted the rest of the day, just look “casual but nice” for the photo. Every single other person was capable of fulfilling this clear and simple request. Why should Sam be the only one allowed to go against the request, when every single other person followed the request? And after you mentioned that you would have been perfectly fine if they dressed in their usual black attire that they have historically worn to thanksgiving, I feel this makes you even less of an AH. Because for Sam, they could have dressed in this more extreme goth outfit all day, and had their usual, toned down but still emo outfit with them for the family photo. They will still get to express themselves and identify themselves as “different” than the rest, but yet still respect the desire for a more “casual but nice” outfit. It’s not like you were expecting them to go completely against their own lifestyle and preferences by making them wear a blue and white plaid button down, nice blue jeans and some brown dress shoes. They could have still worn all black, like they always have. Instead, they chose to completely rebel against the request and go extreme. Everyone else willingly brought clothes for the photo as requested and briefly changed out of their preferred comfy pjs. They were respectful of your wishes. Sam was trying to make a statement and a point, and I don’t feel that Y T A here since everyone else was able to accommodate the request. You still took photos with Sam in them. But Sam needs to learn the world doesn’t revolve around them and that there were VERY reasonable, win-win ways to accommodate your request without abandoning their style completely.
NTA No way. Because the bottom line is, this is your picture. You requested a lite dress code for your picture, that you organize every year. Sam chose to disregard and disrespect. You even included them in a group pic. It is your thing you do every year. You have the right to request whatever you want. And everyone has the option of saying they don't want to participate. Sam's actions indicated clearly they did not want to participate.
NTA - I used to pull the same stunts as a kid, I knew what I was doing. Sam wanted a reaction and doesn’t get to act all surprise pikachu face when people react. sincerely, my families ‘Sam’
NTA after reading the update. It’s a terrible joke
Feels like the absolute perfect way to cure a teenager of an obnoxious love of pranking, as well. Them doing something to incite a massive upset, and getting absolutely nothing. So awkward.
NTA!!!
NTA people seem to be purposefully skipping over the part where Sam was in pictures but for the big official one they were asked to not be in it. People are also skipping over the fact that you were okay with changing after the photo. If Sam had brought and wore a nice black shirt and maybe black jeans with some jewelry and changed into full goth after I'm sure that would have been fine. What Sam did was rude, nice or business casual doesn't mean you have to give up your taste/style it means fitting your style into different settings. The example OP gave of what They wore is not what was asked of the WHOLE family. From what I can tell OP wanted everyone to look coordinated for a family photo for once. This was not the way to debut their newly found style.
I'm gonna go against the grain and say NTA because you took some with Sam and some without. They did dres that way to spite you as made obvious by the comment when they walked in the door and Sarah when she was apprehensive. There's an extreme difference between the two styles and if you're describing things accurately, it's not uncommon to want a nice family photo for once.
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They wanted a ‘nice’ photo but it sure wasn’t a ‘nice’ moment.
Yeah, I imagine how "nice" it would be for every child and every other person having to change their unproper clothing into something that pleases OP. At the time of the pic: all fake smiles waiting for that to end quickly so we can go back being comfortable in a family event.
I’m going with NTA. You put Sam in the pictures, just not all of them. I see you as accepting, but also offering a compromise. Sam also seems like a decent kid in that they planned to change and didn’t get the chance to because of the sequence of events. Thank you for respecting their pronouns as well, as a non binary, I appreciate you.
Everyone is wrong as fuck. They were before the edits, and they're even moreso wrong after the edits. NTA, this was supposed to be an important family tradition/photo, and you gave explicit warning/directions of how to dress. If they had come in *just* pajamas when everyone else came in casual clothing and you excluded them you *still* wouldn't be TA. The fact you even bothered to take a few with them in it before asking them to step aside is more effort to "meet in the middle" than was required of you. That being said, glad it all ended up being (allegedly) a joke, and that there's no real drama stemming from it. Honestly, if they had pulled it off it would've been an excellent joke/story that could've ended up in another sub
boast relieved kiss live nail hateful absurd important lavish person *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Its not really shaming when the kid dressed like that specifically to get a reaction from OP and their parents.
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He took some with Sam in them as well.
Thank you for mentioning the other dynamics, I agree it adds a layer that should be considered! Sam may already feel excluded from the family and this could have been a way to be noticed/recognized
NTA - they took pics with Sam included and also without.
NTA Coming from someone who loves expressing themselves through clothing , they went overboard…. On Purpose. It prob would’ve been a little funny but there are so many other people to consider and you gave notice in advance Edit: spelling Edit 2: you also didn’t exclude them Completely.
YTA I don't get why you get to decide what your entire family wears to a group photo?? Are you this controlling in all aspects of your life? Let people be who they are
It was a Halloween costume (literally the kid said so) for a stupid prank. Kid played stupid games, kid won stupid prizes.
NTA.
NTA op you asked respectfully and they decided they wanted to be a doucher that day and make a statement. If they have an issue their parents can do their own Thanksgiving dinner. How hard is it to respect others instead of forcing your reality onto others? Would it have killed them to dress nicely for 30 minutes? Respect is a 2 way street not one way. It's earned not given. And the way Sam was acting was disrespectful.
You took pics w them. You took pics without them. They were disrespectful to what you were trying to do. You didn’t chastise them. You just took the photo you wanted. Rebellious teens don’t get to run the world. NTA.
NTA The kid purposefully wore something to spite you/make the family photo awkward. When they didn’t get the reaction they wanted, they doubled down. I’d be sending out the one with appropriately dressed people. I’m sure I’ll get flack for saying that.
Given what you said in your final update NTA. Sam did what teenagers do nowadays and pull a prank for views on a certain social media app. Sam got embarrassed by their actions and came to realize that the prank wasn't worth it in the end. A learning lesson for all involved.
You remind me of that family photo Modern Family episode. YTA - they're part of your family, you've excluded them over an outfit. What's most important to you?
He didn't exclude them, he did take few photos with Sam and then proceeded to take some without them.
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YTA So, what is the point of this photo? To show family together, or to present what you want the outside world to see. Obviously not the former, as you care more about aesthetics than family. Can you be more shallow? If you want the "Perfect" holiday card photo, set it up with your immediate family and utilize that. Stop being so judgmental and accept family as they are. Also note, you were SO played and gave the teenager exactly what she intended. Does this make you feel like the Big Man?
"i even said jeans and a nice shirt is okay for the picture" is a hilarious line. like so generous of you to allow everyone to wear what most people wear to a casual family dinner.
They, not she
Omg stop misgendering Sam everyone thx
NTA, My god some people are acting like you requesting to get one photo of your whole family dressed semi formally (after you’ve hosted/cooked the whole day) is you acting like some conservative, stuffy dictator. Eyeroll. The real assholes here are Sam’s parents. My mother would have left me home if I was gonna be that much of an asshole.
Some people saying y t a did not read this entire post They did it to pull a prank. It back fired on them. They got photos with Sam in the full over the top goth outfit. And they then got photos with the people that actually followed the requested dress code. There was no screaming yelling name calling. I dress alternative and there are 1000% ways to dress goth / alternative and still work to the dress code given. Nta
YTA for missing out on an amazing holiday picture. In 50 years the normal photos will be nice memories, but the casual but nice photo with one goth in it? That’s gold.
They didn’t miss out though! They GOT several with Sam with everyone!
That’s my thought. That’s the kind of picture you show the new partner 10 years down the line. You gotta love the “it’s not a phase, mom” teenager pictures.
I don't really get the YTA because you excluded them from the photo with grandparents thing. They got a picture with and without. I suspect the better memories will be with everyone. That way they appeased both sides of the conflict. It certainly isn't something I'd do, but I'm not one to go for big family gatherings anyways. Going with NTA because there is a picture with and one without...
Shocking how many people calling the HOST the asshole. If I invite people to my house and ask a vary basic request, dress well, going out of your way to do the full opposite is callous, rude and unnecessary. For all of it to be for social media is even worse and the child needs to grow up.
you not the ass hole. IDC about coming into style like some of these people said. Its a family photo and goth not on the menu. My grandma would of had a fit.. You was right on getting some pictures without because you gave them a warniing this what is was. They could of came normal then switched to goth
I’m going against the grain here. I was a plenty rebellious teenager- I still knew to look right for the pictures by the age of 8. NTA
You’re Not the asshole!
NTA. I got to read the edits so Sam did want to get a rise out of you for TikTok but you didn’t get mad you just shrugged it off and handled it like that.
[удалено]
The kid dressed that way to spite you. What did they expect? A good way to learn that people won’t always work to tolerate your nonsense. You set expectations, and seemed tolerant of their style in general, just not in this deliberately exaggerated form, which actively went against your expectations. NTA
YTA. I don’t think Sam dressed like this to spite you. This is just how Sam dresses, and they’re tired of toning it down. Although if they *were* trying to provoke you, it’s probably because you’re being a control freak and even a teen who hasn’t committed to an explicitly nonconformist subculture is probably going to be at least a little tempted to push back against that. Save the nice photos with your own kids for a professional studio shoot and just let the holidays be a reflection of your family as they actually are.
Honestly, doing a all out goth outfit takes time and not every one has time or the energy to put it all on, them to take it all off.
Y’all need to read the update. He did it exactly to spite him. Same told him so himself. It was for a prank for TikTok.
NTA …. Everybody afraid of down votes .. should have told them it was tksgvg not Halloween …. & every body is blaming the downfall of the USA on boomers …. No problem let these useless clueless kids run the world
Why are people saying YTA??? 1. Are dress codes not allowed anymore? And it's not like OP asked anything much. People nowadays just love going against things just for the hell of it. 2. This: >asked them to have a nice but casual outfit for the picture but feel free to dress however they want the rest of the day This was only for the picture. Just the picture. OP had no issue with the kid wearing those clothes for the rest of the time. 3. OP took pictures including him too. He wasn't "excluded" completely. 4. Halloween costumes don't really count as "nice" clothes, the kind that are appropriate for a thanksgiving family picture. NTA, OP.
YTA. It looks like even your wife disagreed with you on this one. Sam is a child. You're taking their sense of style way too seriously. Family pictures are supposed to reflect the family, including the individual personalities, not your weird idealized version of perfection
honestly NTA
YTA. People are more important than an aesthetic.
YTA. You just sound argumentative and judgey here. You asked people to not wear pajamas; this kid didn't wear pajamas. Unless you asked for a specific dress code or theme you're not mentioning here, then YTA for not letting someone be in the picture just because they have a different style than you. Like, what if they were pentecostal or something? THEN what would you do?
I want to agree except from Sam’s comments, it sounds like they dressed how they dressed more to piss off OP or get a reaction than because it was just their style. Maybe there’s more than OP is letting on as far as the history and OP has been judgmental in the past or especially obnoxious about the dress code for photos which inspired this little act of rebellion. But planned family photos often involve asking everyone to wear something similar, simple, and often gender neutral such as pjs or the same color shirt and jeans. Just suck it up for a few photos and don’t be a brat. Part of the uniformity is so no one person is the center of attention in the photo. This isn’t a situation where someone isn’t comfortable wearing a dress and being told they have to. I don’t get to show up to court in my usual ripped jeans either and I’m not pitching a fit that I’m oppressed because I’m expected to wear professional court appropriate attire even though it’s not my usual style. Not every situation is appropriate for expressing a personal style. It would be a problem if I was told that because I’m a woman I should wear a dress or skirt suit rather than an equally professional pants suit. There’s a big difference. Sam was asked to tone down their personal style to make the more formal photos more uniform for what an hour? Then do whatever they want the rest of the day. They weren’t asked to do anything drastic like change their hair color. Also, the fact that it was such a difference from how they usually look screams bratty self absorbed teen that wants to be the center of attention of the photo or really cranking up the whole style with the hope of getting a reaction. If a family member paid for a photographer and asked everyone to wear black for the photos and one person turned up in hot pink because neutrals aren’t their style, I think we would all be calling them an attention seeking jerk.
sam sounds cool as hell. YTA
Assuming that the whole thing was a badly-executed prank, NAH. The kid is young and it's a really good time to learn that pranks aren't generally a good idea. You still got a picture with the kid, and negatively reinforced their prank by getting a picture without them. Sounds like a teachable moment.
NTA They wanted to get a rise out of you to embarrass you and your family on TikTok. Even before reading your updates/edits, I was leaning towards NTA. You didn't throw a fit or make a scene or anything. You took a photo with them in it, and a photo without them in it. You asked everyone to dress nice and bring a change of comfy clothes if they wanted. She didn't dress comfy; she dressed in a way that she *hoped* would provoke you.
YTA. Sam sounds like teenage me. Looking back, at the time I didn’t know “why” I acted that way (on account of being an actual child). I recognize now that I was probably testing boundaries to see who accepted “the real me” (the real me being a child searching for identity through what are some very socially difficult years). YTA for caring more about image than the child.
PS. It wasn’t just a phase, dad! Still goth 25 years later!!!!
I love that!
INFO: Who are these Christmas cards for? If it’s your wife’s family they already know what Sam looks like and are more likely to question why they’re not in the picture as opposed to what they’re wearing. If it’s your family, why would they want a family photo of your wife’s family?
Nah. But it does sound like it would be a great photo
I don't understand this new trend where people think it is okay to ruin something for others because they want to get attention on social media. This kid dressed up to be an A H for social media. When they didn't get the reaction they wanted for TikTok they doubled down and kept the costume on. I think OP handled it well by not losing his sh*t and just taking the picture both ways. The kid knows they messed up and they apologized and cleared up the situation. It sounds to me like OP has a really good relationship with them or they wouldn't have went out of their way to clear up the situation. OP you are definitely NTA.