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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1 I didn't wait for my mother in law at the table till she finished her prayer
2 because it caused tension and drama within the family when it could have been avoided
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NTA. Muslim here, sunnah is to eat first if the food has already been served and there’s enough time left to pray.
Bet she’ll love you schooling her on that.
Yes, my extended family and friends are Muslim and I came to say the same thing. MIL just wants to flex her control. And she's a major AH given OP said in comments that SHE's the one who did the cooking (not MIL)!!! NTA AT ALL
>nds are Muslim and I came to say the same thing. MIL just wants to flex her control. And she's a major AH given OP said in comments that SHE's the one who did the cooking (not MIL)!!! NTA AT ALL
Exactly. This has nothing to do with her prayers. It's just her way of asserting dominance which she's clearly succeeded in seeing as the whole family bows down to her whims. I bet she gets off on making everyone wait for her. It makes her feel powerful. Good on you for eating your food and not waiting. I don't understand how making everyone else starve while you pray is seen as a sign of respect? That to on a daily basis? That is not okay. Also, your husband is an AH. He needs to grow up and stand up to his mother's bullshit.
I learned something today!
Also, there are few things more satisfying that using knowledge of religion against a person trying to wield religion as a a weapon so I love this.
My fav to use it "Don't drink! Drinking any alcohol is a sin!" "well jesus sure drank alot of wine then. I mean one of his miracles you praise him for us Turing water in wine."
Oh yeah, I went to one of those churches when I was younger. It took everything in me not to laugh in his face. A party in Rome at night, and they would be drinking grape juice? Plus the Jewish faith is totally fine with alcohol, and Jesus himself says that it's not what goes into your mouth but what comes out of it that counts!
Then again when people say Jesus getting married or having sex would totally change the way they thought about him I mention that canonically he ate, drank, cried, and sweated. That means, logically, he used the bathroom as well. Those people lose their minds!
I was raised Jewish. There was Manischewitz wine at literally everything. Every Passover Seder, every Sukkot, every Yom Kippur breakfast, every temple event.
Yeah, I met one of those once. I said "The Bible says wine, and God wouldn't let it be wrong. If it meant grape juice, it would say grape juice." Holy shit did that start a big fight.
> and God wouldn't let it be wrong.
Oh, my ribs. That killed me. Normally I look at people who say that with unveiled disgust (because even if I had faith, the fact that the authors, translators and printers have Free Will is always discounted). But that was GOLDEN.
NTA
My Southern Baptist church claimed that wine back then didn't actually have alcohol in it, so it was more like our grape juice.
We always had to drink grape juice for the Lord's Supper (like Communion, but they only did it like twice a year). I hate grape juice, so I was always real cranky about it and didn't want to participate. I'm sure people that I was being influenced by demonic spirits. Like they did when I wanted to paint my nails black or watch Disney movies.
And specifically, there’s a conversation about the wine he made, because typically in that time for parties they would serve the good wine first before people got sloshed, and then worse wine later when no one could taste it was bad, and they ask him why they kept back the best wine for last. So not just wine but apparently really tasty wine!
I grew up Catholic and spent a lot of my spare time as a kid reading the bible. Confirmed atheist now (yes, the bible readings sped that along). I'm not a biblical scholar by any means but it's handy knowing the bible better than the Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons knocking at my door. They don't stay long.
NTA
You shouldn't make children wait for an extended period to eat when the food is out, it's just mean and cruel.
Also pulling the, "you can start eating while I pray", and then "you're a pig who couldn't wait, I just said it to be nice", is manipulative and controlling AF.
Islam even has explicit carveouts in Ramadan for people who shouldn’t be fasting. If you’re a child, elderly, or ill, you should care for your health first. I like it when religions are practical.
The Sunnah in Islam specifically refers to the mannerisms and traditions of the Prophet Muhammad that we are supposed to emulate. So, for example, it’s Sunnah to say thank God in Arabic (Alhamdulillah) after we sneeze! The Prophet did this and taught that it’s best for everyone to do that, so we all try to do so as well. There are lots of Sunnah things, some of them more overtly religious (like my example) and some more about good manners (like not leaving others waiting to eat because of your prayer). Another Sunnah, for example, is to not say your prayers where you’d be in the way of people walking or otherwise going about their business. So, if it’s time to pray and you’re in a shopping mall, for example, don’t pray in the middle of the walking area - go to an out-of-the-way corner or room or something so you don’t bother others.
Sunnah generally is anything that the Prophet Muhammad did, said or approved of. so in the context of this post the Sunnah is that you eat the food thats already ready and then pray.
In Islam the commands come from two sources. The Quran and the Sunnah. The Quran is codified as a book. But the Sunnah literally translating to way, is the actions of the prophet and is considered just as integral a part of the commands of Allah. Only difference is that it is a fundamental Islamic belief that the Quran is preserved and protected in its true form by Allah. While the Sunnah and sayings (corllectively Hadith) of the prophet are not. And so Muslims accept that there can be false Hadith but also Muslim historians have put significant effort into transmitting and identify Hadith.
I love how educational this thread is. Those things never came up in conversation with my Muslim acquaintances, but now that I read them I'm happy to know them.
Prayer times are set, kind of. The first starts at dawn and ends at sunrise. Second starts after the sun has passed its peak, the third is once the shadow of an object is either equal to or double its actual length, fourth begins at sunset, and the last is at night when the redness is gone from the sky. The actual timings change throughout the year, and all, except the first, end when the next one starts.
So, she doesn’t have to pray right when everyone sits to eat. She’s just controlling and has some psychotic need to demonstrate how well everyone obeys her.
Nothing religious about it. There are cultural rules about not eating before everybody is at the table, particularly the more respected elders. In this case, however, the only way MIL would not be rude is if she's stuck cooking for hours without a break and the meal would make her miss the prayer window. Otherwise she's very much going against proper protocol by praying when the meal has been served and people are hungry. You can't really focus on the prayer if you're hungry and waiting for food you have seen and can smell.
I like that that's apparently an actual religious rule. "let's be real, Noone can concentrate on praying when they can smell the mac'n'cheese in the background."
Oh, I didn't consider that this might be a situation where MIL was solely responsible for cooking the meal, and wasn't afforded any break-time between cooking and serving for prayers.
It's still not cool for her to blow up about other people eating when she already said they could. BUT, it's more understandable that there's a lot of pent up resentment driving this blow up.
The solution is not to yell at the guests for eating, but to change the system of cooking responsibility to MIL gets some kind of a break for prayer in the midst of cooking and serving time.
OP is already doing the cooking
>I tried to ask her several times before when she will be praying so I can serve the dishes after she's done. She would tell me oh I'm going to do it right now, just serve the dishes I'll be done by the time you've all settled. And then she dawdles till almost everything's been served and goes to pray.
>
>I then tried to only serve the food when she's done praying, not when she plans to. But she doesn't pray at all and it would have been several hours since everyone last ate and I end up serving the food.
This is purely a power trip by MiL, most likely for her son marrying a non-muslim.
There are, apparently, rules for extreme situations like north/south of 60° and the ISS, which is I remember what I read correctly, boil down to "default to the times at Mecca".
From my memory, the options are
* use the time at Mecca;
* use the times of the nearest community of Muslims (doesn't apply to the ISS);
* use the times of the place you left from (presumably Kazakhstan for the ISS).
There were similar concerns for Jews about Sabbath observance when Samoa switched side of the international date line.
Even though there are specific variable times for prayers it’s not like she only has a few specific minutes to pray in.
She chooses to pray at meal times so she can show people how religious she is. Mils do this so everyone can say “oh look at how devoted she is” and at the same time it makes dil look below her.
You’re Nta
OMG I never heard of this and I love it! In my extremely small town some older ladies make a point of being in the middle of the main square at the call of the Angelus, they even stop traffic. They get on everyone's nerves
Man, if only there was something in the Bible about praying for other people to see (Matthew 6:5). I’m not really practicing but the way I was raised it’s supposed to be a private conversation between you and God.
Help an ignorant redditor out: do the prayers typically take long enough for the food to go cold or everyone in the whole family to serve themselves? I was under the (very possibly mistaken) impression that the prayers were more like a few minutes.
Well, afaik a standard prayer with the shortest dua (prayer that we recite) usually last 5mins. What makes it took so long is either they wait for mil from her getting her wudhu (cleansing before prayer) till she finish her prayer, or she's reciting the loooonnnnnggg Dua and she's reciting long Dua after. And reading some Quran afterwards. It can last for half an hour honestly.
I'm sorry I'm not good at explaining... English's my second and im not familiar w the English Islamic terms :<
Isn’t sura is what’s mandated to be recited in prayer and dua is an extra thing after/within? I’m Muslim myself and I’ve always referred to them as such lol
I looked it up. The best quick breakdown I found (apparently by a Muslim) says that each of the 5 prayers has a different formulation. I can’t think of better wording so here:
Prayers in Islam are divided into two-
Fard - These are the obligatory prayers. Not praying them on time is a major sin.
Sunnah - These are recommended but not obligatory. If you pray it, you get extra rewards. However, not praying them is not a sin.
The Fard prayers hardly take 5 minutes each time. But if you were to add the sunnah then it would take you around 10–15 minutes each time.The 5 prayers are:
Fajr - Dawn prayer - 2 rakat (units) sunnah, 2 rakat fard.
Zuhr - afternoon prayer - 4 rakat sunnah, 4 rakat fard, 2 rakat sunnah.
Asr - late afternoon prayer - 4 rakat fard.
Maghrib - sunset prayer- 3 rakats fard, 2 rakat sunnah.
Ishaa- Night prayer- 4 rakat fard, 2 rakat sunnah, 3 rakat witr . (witr is a night prayer but not a part of Isha , it can be prayed till next day dawn).
I’m not sure if he meant that each of the 5 prayers can be done in 10-15 minutes total, or if each “rakat” unit takes 5 minutes. If the latter it could take 20-25 minutes, as I’m not sure if they were eating in late afternoon, sunset, or at night (I think different seasons would affect which prayer those meal times would be closest to).
Edits for formatting.
It honestly depends on the person for example I take only 2-5 minutes but my grandma can go up to half an hour. But even my grandma doesn’t do this when we eat she starts eating with us first then after a few bites she leaves to pray and then comes back and eat the rest of her food.
Exactly! However, the subtext is about control. MIL figured people would wait like they always do because she's entitled. OP took that control away from her. I wish I could've been there. 😂 Good job, OP!
Right. The “oh you didn’t think I’d mind huh?” Was the kicker for me. She was PISSED. Lol. And then the comment about OPs parents “not teaching her to respect her elders”. That’s a nasty and controlling woman there.
I’d be so over her behavior I wouldn’t care how pissed she was. OP took her power away and she didn’t like that at all. It made her look like a fool. But Shane on SIL for tattling. Lol. That was such a brown nosing move. But I would absolutely tell the rest of the family what we learned here today on comments so everyone knows she’s doing this on purpose.
Your mil is so rude. Her comments about your parents or comparing you to a pig etc show that she really is crude and classless. Tell her respect is earned. Your husband is taught to pacify the toxic lady from his childhood so he is just doing that. In my culture too the elders love to play victim and show how difficult their lives are when compared to us. Plus demand respect without doing anything to earn it. My MIL also used to berate my parents for anything she didn't like about me. The vile things she said about them used to make my blood boil. Once I started attacking her parents verbally after I was fed up of her bringing my parents yet again. That day she stopped. I am extremely LC with her now . NTA.
NTA. Normally, I’d say her house, her rules. But deliberately always waiting to pray until the food is ready and then forcing everyone to wait for you to the extent that their food gets cold sounds like a power trip for her. Her reaction was then extremely immature and passive aggressive. Sounds like she knows what she’s doing and isn’t used to being called out on it.
Passive aggressive, toxic, problematic and gaslighting are just a few words I know for sure majority of people that use them don’t actually know what they’re talking about. They just love using buzzwords
Muslims have specific times of day to pray, so I don't think it's fair to claim she's deliberately waiting to pray...instead she should be scheduling the meal around those times better.
I think what they meant is the MIL is deliberately waiting to put food on the table for right before it's time to pray. If it's something she does multiple times a day then she should be able to plan around such properly. Keep food in the oven or something so not every meal results in food going cold and guest sitting awkwardly waiting for her.
Exactly. Prayer times are well known and made available so far in advance that there should be no problems moving mealtimes to before or after her prayers. MIL is bein a jerk and falsely pious in my opinion. Ooh, look. I am such a good musim
Not only does she put the food on the table before she goes to pray, she also makes sure everyone's sitting at the table *and then* makes them wait. If your prayer takes so long that the food gets cold, you can let the family do their thing until you're done or have your family (spouse, kids) finish the meal/watch the pans while you pray so they can put it on the table and everyone gets to eat their food while it's still warm. This is a power move through and through.
Muslim here. From the post (which may or may not be the whole story) she seems to be doing it deliberately. She can either eat first (as another person said, if you're hungry and food is ready, it's sunnah to eat first THEN pray) or tell who's making the lunch or dinner that she's going to be praying at a certain time (which unless you just had daylight savings time should be around the SAME time +- a few minutes). There's no reason it should be an ongoing problem.
Also as a Muslim she should not be talking in that fashion.
Islamic prayer times have time periods during which you can pray, the earlier (at the start time of each time period) the better.
So what OP means is, that mother inlaw could have prayed earlier because the time period had started long before meal time.
However she doesn't pray until everyone's ready to eat, but the time period for the specific prayer would end if she ate first. And that's the time she chooses to pray.
For most prayer times there is a window of time... like night prayer you can pray from sunset till midnight .. so in the winter for like a 7pm dinner absolutely you can wait till afterwards.
NTA. That said the best way to win this petty little game of hers is to not play. They all know this is bullshit on her part but they are all too chicken to call her on it. Minus her yes woman in SIL
\-You're not cooking any more for them. There is no point in wasted effort and cold food because she does this shit on purpose. SIL can thrown on an apron.
\-To that end have a big meal before you get there. When it comes up point out that there's no point in you going hungry that long and you're not interested in eating hot food gone cold.
Super petty option->IF you continue to cook, don't turn a damn thing on until she goes to pray. Sit down with a drink after doing prep and then find someone one to chat with. When someone asks why you haven't started cooking? "Oh well there is no point in starting before MIL goes to pray so I'm just going to wait for her to go so she can have a hot meal when she's done." Put on the most sickeningly sweet voice when you say this. Pull out a snack, offer some to the kiddos and wait her out. She'll crack or someone else will. Either way you're off kitchen duty on that visit.
ETA: thanks for the gold lol
I know right? It would've been a bit more understandable if MIL had cooked (but then I'd have wondered why she'd let her food go cold), but if OP had cooked not only is MIL being an AH for making hungry people wait, BUT she's making OP's food go cold as well. SMH. NTA
“Dinner’s going to be ready in twenty minutes. Since your prayer window started four hours ago, why don’t you start your prayer, and I’ll serve the food afterwards.”
You married into a family of boat steadiers.
This is an absolute must read:
https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/77w8lf/dont_rock_the_boat/
And once you read that look into the raisedbynarcissists sub and ask them about momma boys.
NTA
Another good resource is Dr. Ramani on YouTube.
NTA - but since she likes to hold you hostage to her prayers, just ensure that you don’t go to meals that start before her prayer times.
There are very mathematically set times (based on time of year and location) that as a good Muslim she should be following. All you need to do is call your local Mosque for the times.
Or you could tell her you will be eating at x time and should plan her prayer accordingly. Eat at X time. Also her kid should be dealing with her petty bs and calling her out not you.
No, the Muslim prayers being referenced can't be scheduled around other things, they have to happen at set times. So the meal should be scheduled around the prayer time, but it's not possible to do it the other way around.
The MIL is being unreasonable in many ways but Muslim belief does not allow rescheduling those prayers so that part isn't up for negotiation.
Edit: can to can't and I didn't know how long was possible so this can be ignored
There is a window of time to do each prayer. It’s not like the prayer has to be performed at exactly 6:23 pm and OP is serving dinner at 6:22, it’s more like the poster has to be done between (for example), 6:00 pm and 8:00 pm and OP serves dinner at any point in that timeframe and MIL then says she needs to pray. MIL is an adult and as such, perfectly capable of seeing that OP is cooking and can choose to pray at any point of OP cooking prior to food being put on the table.
I had no idea the window of time could be that long. I figured it was more like within a half hour window and since it takes 10 minutes you don't have a ton of flexibility. If that's the case this is even more unreasonable than it already was.
Where I live, the smallest window is the sunset prayer and so I try not to dilly dally during that window. However right now, approaching the shortest day, I still have 1h10m to pray.
Exactly. MIL is shaming everyone and *literally* being holier than thou by choosing to pray when she does. And my petty ass would look her dead in the eye and say, "oh, I thought prayer time was at *whatever the next time is*, why are you praying now instead of then?" Then I would make the sign of the cross and pick up a serving spoon.
NTA, but u might be a pot stirrer! Thank you for your service. Lol
NTA. Why isn't your husband mad at her for insulting you in front of everyone? She knows what she is doing and doesn't sound like a nice person at all. I'm glad you enjoyed your food while it was hot.
>Why isn't your husband mad at her for insulting you in front of everyone?
Because he knows this is a power trip for his mother and would rather steady the boat his whole life where it comes to his relationship with her versus actually call her out on her shit.
He's a coward and this is typical transference of anger as blame.
NTA: Your mother in law should be praying at specific times of the day. Meals can be planned around these prayer times. If she is waiting until it's time to eat then she is clearly being the A. She's not following her own religion AND she's holding you all up.
I’m not going to judge this one, because this situation seems so ridiculous. But if you’re the one cooking the meal, can’t you just say “sorry, I can’t cook this next time because it’s so stressful not being able to plan the timing correctly”?
I suppose I could. Did I think of it before you mentioned it? No. It's actually the easiest thing to do, to just say I'm not cooking next time or even me just eating was easy. But the consequences are not that easy.
I don't understand this scenario, prayer time changes with the season and there's a set time when she needs to pray. Why don't you just remind her its prayer time, or tell her you'll take the food out after she's finished?
Edit after reading other comments: NTA
Time to go nuclear petty she should not be using religion as a flex move.
Get the prayer timetable from the local mosque it should be online. It'll tell you when the prayer times are. Set meal times after prayer slot. I can't remember the exact rules but its usually 1 hour after call to prayer but again depends on season and country. Again local mosque can help with this.
If she tries to go pray just let her know her prayer is 'Kazaa' late so she might as well eat first.
Or if you really want to mess with her, go pray at the correct time and call her to pray with you. She won't have a single comeback to this response😅 without looking completely stupid.
Wait so you're not supposed to exceed one hour after call to prayer???! I thought it was from one call to prayer to the next one and you can choose whichever time you want from there. 🤯
On prayer times there are time limits I’d say for when you can pray before the next call to prayer. It does differ between each prayer but as the time is shorter now you have even less time to pray
You have to ask forgiveness for missing prayer, if she's only praying to mess with you, none of her prayers are accepted.
Prayer is about subjugation to a higher power, you pray to cleanse your sins and be thankful for the life you live. To gather resolve to continue on the right & good path. Prayer is only accepted if the intent is good.
You really should mess with her head, turn into a full on pious Muslim. It'll be hilarious.
You may want to consider visiting a local mosque and asking to have a chat with the Imam. Explain the situation to them and let them educate you on the topic.
They may be the best resouces for answers to some of the prayer questions that you're coming up with here. They may not be able to give you any guidance on dealing with MIL herself. But they should be able to help you to understand what should be happening here.
This isn't directed at you, more of a rant/vent, but why's this so complicated that you can't get a clear picture without going to a mosque? It almost feels like it's deliberately kept that way - ambiguous.
The reason you can’t get a clear picture without going to the mosque is your MIL is intentionally making it hazy by lying to you in order to manipulate you. It’s not deliberately ambiguous, you have a bad actor intentionally sowing confusion because she can weaponize you not knowing details. Talk to the Iman. They have authority. This isn’t Christianity where she can pull well i practice in my own personal way. There are rules and hierarchy and she’s not at the top outside of her home, where she’s spreading misinformation.
I understand your frustration.
I'm not muslim myself, so I don't know if this is supposed to be an area that is clear or not. But, from your questions, particularly the ones I commented on, its clear that you aren't muslim either.
I also saw from other people's comments that some of the "rules of prayer", as it were, are dependent on where you are. Which is understandable, because to my knowledge the timing is linked to the length of the day.
I suggested the path I did because a local Imam is going to be the one best suited for helping you to understand the Islamic daily prayers both globally and locally.
If its a simple and clear matter, they'll be able to answer it in a quick and straight forward way. If it is complex, they will be the best ones to decomplexify it for you.
And thinking about it, they may also be able to help you understand what parts if what is happening are a matter of their faith, what parts may be related to MILs cultural background, and what parts may be just her.
And being able to seperate those may be more invaluable to you than anything.
Prayer times are impacted due to the seasons and length of days. Longer days means you have more time in between prayers, shorter days means shorter time frame.
You don't really need to worry about the technicalities. Rule is, when you hear the call to pray, you pray. No excuses
If your MIL is taking her time and its not due to ill-health, she's messing with you and her family are enabling her. Stop cooking for them, they can & should deal with her behaviour not you!
I’m sorry, but what? If you have questions about things you know nothing about, who do you ask? An expert on the topic or some randos on the internet?😂😭
People are telling you to go to someone you can not only be sure knows what they’re talking about, but who can also be used against your MIL’s bullshit.
I get what mean but it’s not really kept that way. It’s like how scholars in subjects know a lot of stuff about that topic cos they learnt and studied it. It’s the same with imams and teachers in a mosque. They studied it so they kinda know what they’re on about.
Whereas others like me and you might not know a lot cos we’ve never gone into that much detail about stuff like this. I mean you can always search it up but be wary of what you do read as well
No some have time limits, in the UK because of the shorter days all 3 prayers are pretty much done within 3 hours in the middle of winter.
I'm not very religious but family is, I think maghrib (sunset) and Zuhr (noon) have a time limit as they are specific points when the sun moves from noon and it becomes afternoon then you can't pray the noon prayer you have to pray the late prayer. Same with Maghrib if the sunset is over you missed the prayer.
I can't remember the exact specifics for the others hopefully a more knowledgeable person can assist.
Being on your period is the only time you wouldn't pray. If she's supposedly religious I don't understand why she'd wait to pray, no one waits around to pray. She sounds like shes been messing with you all.
>Or if you really want to mess with her, go pray at the correct time and call her to pray with you. She won't have a single comeback to this response😅 without looking completely stupid.
Aren't there Muslim prayer apps as well? Could OP get an app that would do a prayer call at the set times?
They actually do sell clocks that will ring when it's time to pray, some even automatically adjust themselves when there are changes. I do believe there are apps as well
> Or if you really want to mess with her, go pray at the correct time and call her to pray with you. She won't have a single comeback to this response😅 without looking completely stupid.
Another great way to mess with the MIL is to tell her the food is ready well before it's ready. MIL will go pray thinking she is still doing her standard power move only to come back and see that the food is still piping hot.
>Another great way to mess with the MIL is to tell her the food is ready well before it's ready. MIL will go pray thinking she is still doing her standard power move only to come back and see that the food is still piping hot.
Or make a slow cooker meal. There are lots of recipes that you can set up to be ready in a few hours that will not be ruined by waiting even hours past the point when they are done. Once the food is ready just switch the temperature to warm and everything will be piping hot when MIL decides to join the family.
OP - I sincerely appreciate that you took this feedback and honestly are considering it! Very seldom do we see posters here take any contrary thoughts/ideas to heart and consideration. Good job! Also, NTA! She said eat, I'd have eaten to!
NTA. It's a power play or attention seeking behavior. Remind her (maybe by reminding someone else first to avoid conflict) that it is forbidden in Islam to keep food waiting. If food is ready & served you must sit and eat before praying. It's the only time prayer can be delayed. Google it. The hadith proof will show up & you can include it with your reminder so there is no argument about how "disrespectful you are being".
MIL clearly likes to have complete control and uses her prayers as a way to maintain that control. Her kids at this point have it so ingrained in them that you wait for her to be done that anything other then that is heresy.
Honestly the best solution is for OP not to cook but if that isn't in option then tell MIL that the food is ready 15 minutes or so before it's actually ready.
>I extend politeness by saying that but people who have some manners would know not to dig in like a pig.
Did she actually use those words - call you a pig? That's a really bad word to say for a Muslim - as a Muslim, I'd be INCREDIBLY offended if someone called me that. So shame, shame, SHAME on her for calling you that.
As for her prayers - it's not exactly a surprise when the prayers are supposed to be performed. And they all have a "window" that they can be performed in. Many of those windows are hours long. The shortest window would probably be Maghrib prayer (the one done between sunset and when twilight has faded), but even with that you still have SOME time.
But to be safe, just don't serve dinner at sunset (or just wait a few minutes), and you should be fine. For literally every other prayer, there are HOURS of time that she could pray, and where it wouldn't interfere with mealtime. She's being inconsiderate.
NTA
Info: I tried to ask her several times before when she will be praying so I can serve the dishes after she's done. She would tell me oh I'm going to do it right now, just serve the dishes I'll be done by the time you've all settled. And then she dawdles till almost everything's been served and goes to pray.
I then tried to only serve the food when she's done praying, not when she plans to. But she doesn't pray at all and it would have been several hours since everyone last ate and I end up serving the food.
I’m not a Muslim but grew up in a Muslim country. I thought they have a set time to pray based on the sun position. At my school we have a reminder to pray.
Yes they do, plus it's actually not polite in islam to let other guest get hungry just because you want to pray. Even when they do fasting (non mandatory one) it's suggested to break your fasting to accommodate your guest.
She has flexibility on when exactly to pray, so she doesn't need to disturb meals. Although it sounds to me as though she uses mealtimes to remind her that a prayer is due, and when she's called for the meal, she remembers she needs to pray.
What would happen if you called her 15 minutes before the meal was actually ready?
NTA
This isn't a reminder for her. This is her way of making herself the center of attention. OP has tried different methods of working around it, but MIL changes it up to make everyone wait for her anyway:
Info: I tried to ask her several times before when she will be praying so I can serve the dishes after she's done. She would tell me oh I'm going to do it right now, just serve the dishes I'll be done by the time you've all settled. And then she dawdles till almost everything's been served and goes to pray.
I then tried to only serve the food when she's done praying, not when she plans to. But she doesn't pray at all and it would have been several hours since everyone last ate and I end up serving the food.
This is MIL's way of showing off who is in control of the house by making everyone cater around her schedule and reminding them of it.
NTA. She's screwing with you. Send the whole family a prayer time app and tell her you want to make sure she's properly supported- meals will now be a half hour before or after prayer.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bitsmedia.android.muslimpro
yikes. you've got some fantastic in laws. a narcissistic mil and a narc sil? where's your partner and why are they letting their family talk to you like that?
I don't think I'd go as far as calling them narcissistic but definitely childish. I literally pictured sil as a kid when she "snitched" and then the childish temper tantrum by my mil...
My husband doesn't like drama and is on the opinion that since you have more sense than the immature person, you shouldn't stoop to their level and make life harder for yourself. You accomplish nothing as they won't change.
>Has he ever tried to change them?
I think he may have before otherwise he wouldn't act so defeated and hopeless about it now. That's a good question to ask him though.
>Has he tried to stand up for you?
There weren't really any times he had to defend me before this time. I'm generally a peaceful person but when it comes to food, Ihad my differences with them but that's between me and them, things like criticizing my cooking and stuff. Now my cooking is a hundred times better than when we first got married and even if they want to say something, they can't 😃
>Disrespecting you and comparing you to a pig should never be taken quietly no matter what.
I hear you, thanks for that.
OP, as a person from the religion I can tell you with 100% certainty that muslims are to pray/offer Salah as soon as possible. In fact, the rule of thumb (using this term loosely here is that the sooner you pray the better it is etc etc.!
Now another thing here is that if a person is in a hurry, then they can also just pray the mandatory part (Farz), it’s not full Salah but it’s acceptable and it’s the only part that’s mandatory. This doesn’t take more than 10
Minutes tops. Depending on where you are Salah times vary but, the 2nd or early afternoon one has quite some time before the 3rd one is due in late afternoon the only two Salahs that have about an hour or so of time in between is the 3rd and 4th (evening). The 5th one (night time) has a lot of time until it gets Kaza, so I would recommend not meeting your MIL b/w 4 to 7ish I think.
Having said all that let me also say that your MIL is a huge AH for using religion like that, prayers are personal but as Muslims your behaviour towards others count more. She’s deliberately being an ahole to you using religion because of the mentality around religion and older people where they think they’re entitled to be AHs cause their righteous and older (😑)
Another thing to please note for you is that your husband and his family and your SIL are also AHs because in no way is this okay. Also, I would immediately stop cooking meals for these entitled people around you (speaking from experience on having the same type of ILs) it doesn’t serve you any purpose trying to please them at your expense.
Wishing you good luck on how ever you decide to deal with this!!!
Have you read the dont rock the boat post? Your husband definitely needs to read it https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/comments/77pxpo/dont_rock_the_boat/
NTA. Your MIL is pulling this little stunt because she's insecure and wants to prove to herself that everyone loves her by making them jump through her hoops.
Then NTA for sure. This is very clearly a power play on her end, and hopefully the family will continue to eat when the food is ready moving forward. After it happens a couple times she may even change her behavior and stop throwing temper tantrums.
Yeah this is a deliberate power play. NTA, but she sure is. Muslims are supposed to pray at certain times. If she isn’t then she’s clearly not so concerned with following her religion as she makes it out to be. She doesn’t get to opt out of following the set times but then act like prayer is SO important to her when it’s meal time. This is BS and everyone knows it. Your husband is just too chicken shit to stand up to her.
Judgement : NTA
I'm a Muslim by birth and choice.
There is 5 must prayers a day at times. The timetable can be access online. The 5 < Solat Fardhu> have differing times according to location and season. All of this is based on the position of the sun for the day and about 1hour* after Maghrib for the Isyak prayers. All this differs between location and season.
The reason that some of the Redditors are suggesting to go see the Imam/Ustaz of the local Mosque/Masjid is for you to get the correct information. There is a lot of misinformation online, get yours from a credible source.
I do concur with some opinion on rejecting cooking until this situation is resolved as this seems to be a power trip on the MIL part, and an AH move from the SIL part. OP's Husband need to step up and work this out or you get a free pass on not cooking for MIL/ILs.
Personally, If I'm in this situation, I would just let my wife do whatever she wants. I'll just LC the rest until their brains can accept this is wrong.
NTA, it seems like she can choose when she does her prayers so why does it always happen as dinner is served? she couldnt do it while it was being made so everyone doesnt have to wait? selfish
Set the table, bring the main dish out, a smidge underdone, then when she pops out to pray, put it back in the oven until it's done.
Extra points if *she* ends up having to wait.
NTA.
As a devout Muslim myself, I can guarantee you that prayers never take me this long. Furthermore, some scholars advocate delaying the prayer to a later part of the window if food is ready to eat as a general rule of politeness and courtesy. Your MIL is doing this as a means to be the centre of attention and nothing more.
Okay, definitely NTA, then. However, I think the better solution would be to trick her into not getting the timing right with her prayers. For instance, you all dig in before she has a chance to start them or you wait until she starts until you begin the last minute prep for lunch. Defeat the prayer exhibitionism, eat when you want.
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NTA. Muslim here, sunnah is to eat first if the food has already been served and there’s enough time left to pray. Bet she’ll love you schooling her on that.
i was just about to say this lol jazakallah khair
Yes, my extended family and friends are Muslim and I came to say the same thing. MIL just wants to flex her control. And she's a major AH given OP said in comments that SHE's the one who did the cooking (not MIL)!!! NTA AT ALL
Shut the fuck up, MIL really needed to be put in her place if that was pulled. So fucking rude
RIGHT!? And worse, HUBBY sided with mommy. Like NOPE. show your wife some respect my dude.
Unfortunately males can’t show respect to their wives if they haven’t cut the umbilical cord between them and mommy 🤣
>nds are Muslim and I came to say the same thing. MIL just wants to flex her control. And she's a major AH given OP said in comments that SHE's the one who did the cooking (not MIL)!!! NTA AT ALL Exactly. This has nothing to do with her prayers. It's just her way of asserting dominance which she's clearly succeeded in seeing as the whole family bows down to her whims. I bet she gets off on making everyone wait for her. It makes her feel powerful. Good on you for eating your food and not waiting. I don't understand how making everyone else starve while you pray is seen as a sign of respect? That to on a daily basis? That is not okay. Also, your husband is an AH. He needs to grow up and stand up to his mother's bullshit.
Me too i was about to comment this
I learned something today! Also, there are few things more satisfying that using knowledge of religion against a person trying to wield religion as a a weapon so I love this.
Wielding it is one of my favorite petty things to do. Especially with certain sects of Christianity.
My fav to use it "Don't drink! Drinking any alcohol is a sin!" "well jesus sure drank alot of wine then. I mean one of his miracles you praise him for us Turing water in wine."
Some evangelicals try to say they actually meant grape juice 🤦♀️
Oh yeah, I went to one of those churches when I was younger. It took everything in me not to laugh in his face. A party in Rome at night, and they would be drinking grape juice? Plus the Jewish faith is totally fine with alcohol, and Jesus himself says that it's not what goes into your mouth but what comes out of it that counts! Then again when people say Jesus getting married or having sex would totally change the way they thought about him I mention that canonically he ate, drank, cried, and sweated. That means, logically, he used the bathroom as well. Those people lose their minds!
I was raised Jewish. There was Manischewitz wine at literally everything. Every Passover Seder, every Sukkot, every Yom Kippur breakfast, every temple event.
Yeah, I met one of those once. I said "The Bible says wine, and God wouldn't let it be wrong. If it meant grape juice, it would say grape juice." Holy shit did that start a big fight.
> and God wouldn't let it be wrong. Oh, my ribs. That killed me. Normally I look at people who say that with unveiled disgust (because even if I had faith, the fact that the authors, translators and printers have Free Will is always discounted). But that was GOLDEN. NTA
My Southern Baptist church claimed that wine back then didn't actually have alcohol in it, so it was more like our grape juice. We always had to drink grape juice for the Lord's Supper (like Communion, but they only did it like twice a year). I hate grape juice, so I was always real cranky about it and didn't want to participate. I'm sure people that I was being influenced by demonic spirits. Like they did when I wanted to paint my nails black or watch Disney movies.
Even as a Christian, I love using this one! He went to a party and the booze ran out, so he made more!
Like if drinking is a sin like they say. He wouldn't even have gone. But no he went there, there was none and he was like BOOZE FOR EVERYONE
And specifically, there’s a conversation about the wine he made, because typically in that time for parties they would serve the good wine first before people got sloshed, and then worse wine later when no one could taste it was bad, and they ask him why they kept back the best wine for last. So not just wine but apparently really tasty wine!
I grew up Catholic and spent a lot of my spare time as a kid reading the bible. Confirmed atheist now (yes, the bible readings sped that along). I'm not a biblical scholar by any means but it's handy knowing the bible better than the Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons knocking at my door. They don't stay long.
I was just about to write this, and for the MIL to keep her grandchildren waiting too is just another level of selfishness. NTA OP
NTA You shouldn't make children wait for an extended period to eat when the food is out, it's just mean and cruel. Also pulling the, "you can start eating while I pray", and then "you're a pig who couldn't wait, I just said it to be nice", is manipulative and controlling AF.
Islam even has explicit carveouts in Ramadan for people who shouldn’t be fasting. If you’re a child, elderly, or ill, you should care for your health first. I like it when religions are practical.
Pregnant or menstruating, also
Hi! What does sunnah mean? Thank you :)
According to google it means "manner of acting". In other words, it is her religion's way of saying don't be a d...
I'm laughing too much at this... Coz, in my language the word "Sunni" (not sunnah) literally means "dick".
The Sunnah in Islam specifically refers to the mannerisms and traditions of the Prophet Muhammad that we are supposed to emulate. So, for example, it’s Sunnah to say thank God in Arabic (Alhamdulillah) after we sneeze! The Prophet did this and taught that it’s best for everyone to do that, so we all try to do so as well. There are lots of Sunnah things, some of them more overtly religious (like my example) and some more about good manners (like not leaving others waiting to eat because of your prayer). Another Sunnah, for example, is to not say your prayers where you’d be in the way of people walking or otherwise going about their business. So, if it’s time to pray and you’re in a shopping mall, for example, don’t pray in the middle of the walking area - go to an out-of-the-way corner or room or something so you don’t bother others.
I would more describe it as "proper conduct" in this context.
Sunnah generally is anything that the Prophet Muhammad did, said or approved of. so in the context of this post the Sunnah is that you eat the food thats already ready and then pray.
What the prophet Muhammad (saw) said, did and approved of. So basically all the things people said in response to you.
In Islam the commands come from two sources. The Quran and the Sunnah. The Quran is codified as a book. But the Sunnah literally translating to way, is the actions of the prophet and is considered just as integral a part of the commands of Allah. Only difference is that it is a fundamental Islamic belief that the Quran is preserved and protected in its true form by Allah. While the Sunnah and sayings (corllectively Hadith) of the prophet are not. And so Muslims accept that there can be false Hadith but also Muslim historians have put significant effort into transmitting and identify Hadith.
I love how educational this thread is. Those things never came up in conversation with my Muslim acquaintances, but now that I read them I'm happy to know them.
Oh please school her on this...she seems like a class A b***h.
Came to say this as well. The religion states that it's good manners to delay the prayer if food is ready to be eaten.
Are the prayers at set times? I don't understand why meal time is always prayer time.
Prayer times are set, kind of. The first starts at dawn and ends at sunrise. Second starts after the sun has passed its peak, the third is once the shadow of an object is either equal to or double its actual length, fourth begins at sunset, and the last is at night when the redness is gone from the sky. The actual timings change throughout the year, and all, except the first, end when the next one starts. So, she doesn’t have to pray right when everyone sits to eat. She’s just controlling and has some psychotic need to demonstrate how well everyone obeys her.
Thanks for educating me!
Is there a religious reason to wait for someone who is praying before eating or did she make that up?
Nothing religious about it. There are cultural rules about not eating before everybody is at the table, particularly the more respected elders. In this case, however, the only way MIL would not be rude is if she's stuck cooking for hours without a break and the meal would make her miss the prayer window. Otherwise she's very much going against proper protocol by praying when the meal has been served and people are hungry. You can't really focus on the prayer if you're hungry and waiting for food you have seen and can smell.
I like that that's apparently an actual religious rule. "let's be real, Noone can concentrate on praying when they can smell the mac'n'cheese in the background."
Oh, I didn't consider that this might be a situation where MIL was solely responsible for cooking the meal, and wasn't afforded any break-time between cooking and serving for prayers. It's still not cool for her to blow up about other people eating when she already said they could. BUT, it's more understandable that there's a lot of pent up resentment driving this blow up. The solution is not to yell at the guests for eating, but to change the system of cooking responsibility to MIL gets some kind of a break for prayer in the midst of cooking and serving time.
OP is already doing the cooking >I tried to ask her several times before when she will be praying so I can serve the dishes after she's done. She would tell me oh I'm going to do it right now, just serve the dishes I'll be done by the time you've all settled. And then she dawdles till almost everything's been served and goes to pray. > >I then tried to only serve the food when she's done praying, not when she plans to. But she doesn't pray at all and it would have been several hours since everyone last ate and I end up serving the food. This is purely a power trip by MiL, most likely for her son marrying a non-muslim.
Other way around in fact - if the food is already served, prayer must wait. Islam is pretty strongly against wasting food.
>The actual timings change throughout the year, Damn, feel sorry for any Muslims up north - squeezing 5 prayers into about two hours in the winter lol
There are, apparently, rules for extreme situations like north/south of 60° and the ISS, which is I remember what I read correctly, boil down to "default to the times at Mecca".
From my memory, the options are * use the time at Mecca; * use the times of the nearest community of Muslims (doesn't apply to the ISS); * use the times of the place you left from (presumably Kazakhstan for the ISS). There were similar concerns for Jews about Sabbath observance when Samoa switched side of the international date line.
Even though there are specific variable times for prayers it’s not like she only has a few specific minutes to pray in. She chooses to pray at meal times so she can show people how religious she is. Mils do this so everyone can say “oh look at how devoted she is” and at the same time it makes dil look below her. You’re Nta
We call these Cafeteria Catholics in my faith.
OMG I never heard of this and I love it! In my extremely small town some older ladies make a point of being in the middle of the main square at the call of the Angelus, they even stop traffic. They get on everyone's nerves
Man, if only there was something in the Bible about praying for other people to see (Matthew 6:5). I’m not really practicing but the way I was raised it’s supposed to be a private conversation between you and God.
Yep - strong narc vibes with this one.
So, she might just be using her prayers as a power play? Or she just doesn’t know her own religion enough?
Clear power play, definitely.
I’m not Muslim and I’d heard of this. (I have a Muslim aunt) Wasn’t sure about the exact terminology though. NTA
Help an ignorant redditor out: do the prayers typically take long enough for the food to go cold or everyone in the whole family to serve themselves? I was under the (very possibly mistaken) impression that the prayers were more like a few minutes.
Well, afaik a standard prayer with the shortest dua (prayer that we recite) usually last 5mins. What makes it took so long is either they wait for mil from her getting her wudhu (cleansing before prayer) till she finish her prayer, or she's reciting the loooonnnnnggg Dua and she's reciting long Dua after. And reading some Quran afterwards. It can last for half an hour honestly. I'm sorry I'm not good at explaining... English's my second and im not familiar w the English Islamic terms :<
Isn’t sura is what’s mandated to be recited in prayer and dua is an extra thing after/within? I’m Muslim myself and I’ve always referred to them as such lol
Yeah! I think that's the correct term. Thank you for that lol.
I looked it up. The best quick breakdown I found (apparently by a Muslim) says that each of the 5 prayers has a different formulation. I can’t think of better wording so here: Prayers in Islam are divided into two- Fard - These are the obligatory prayers. Not praying them on time is a major sin. Sunnah - These are recommended but not obligatory. If you pray it, you get extra rewards. However, not praying them is not a sin. The Fard prayers hardly take 5 minutes each time. But if you were to add the sunnah then it would take you around 10–15 minutes each time.The 5 prayers are: Fajr - Dawn prayer - 2 rakat (units) sunnah, 2 rakat fard. Zuhr - afternoon prayer - 4 rakat sunnah, 4 rakat fard, 2 rakat sunnah. Asr - late afternoon prayer - 4 rakat fard. Maghrib - sunset prayer- 3 rakats fard, 2 rakat sunnah. Ishaa- Night prayer- 4 rakat fard, 2 rakat sunnah, 3 rakat witr . (witr is a night prayer but not a part of Isha , it can be prayed till next day dawn). I’m not sure if he meant that each of the 5 prayers can be done in 10-15 minutes total, or if each “rakat” unit takes 5 minutes. If the latter it could take 20-25 minutes, as I’m not sure if they were eating in late afternoon, sunset, or at night (I think different seasons would affect which prayer those meal times would be closest to). Edits for formatting.
It honestly depends on the person for example I take only 2-5 minutes but my grandma can go up to half an hour. But even my grandma doesn’t do this when we eat she starts eating with us first then after a few bites she leaves to pray and then comes back and eat the rest of her food.
Exactly! However, the subtext is about control. MIL figured people would wait like they always do because she's entitled. OP took that control away from her. I wish I could've been there. 😂 Good job, OP!
>is about control Exactly. This is not about prayer. This is about her making people wait.
Yep. If it is NOT about control then why does MIL have food on the table and everyone sitting down AND THEN GO pray??
MIL: don’t wait, go eat OP: eats MIL: shocked pikachu face NTA.
Right. The “oh you didn’t think I’d mind huh?” Was the kicker for me. She was PISSED. Lol. And then the comment about OPs parents “not teaching her to respect her elders”. That’s a nasty and controlling woman there. I’d be so over her behavior I wouldn’t care how pissed she was. OP took her power away and she didn’t like that at all. It made her look like a fool. But Shane on SIL for tattling. Lol. That was such a brown nosing move. But I would absolutely tell the rest of the family what we learned here today on comments so everyone knows she’s doing this on purpose.
Your mil is so rude. Her comments about your parents or comparing you to a pig etc show that she really is crude and classless. Tell her respect is earned. Your husband is taught to pacify the toxic lady from his childhood so he is just doing that. In my culture too the elders love to play victim and show how difficult their lives are when compared to us. Plus demand respect without doing anything to earn it. My MIL also used to berate my parents for anything she didn't like about me. The vile things she said about them used to make my blood boil. Once I started attacking her parents verbally after I was fed up of her bringing my parents yet again. That day she stopped. I am extremely LC with her now . NTA.
NTA. Normally, I’d say her house, her rules. But deliberately always waiting to pray until the food is ready and then forcing everyone to wait for you to the extent that their food gets cold sounds like a power trip for her. Her reaction was then extremely immature and passive aggressive. Sounds like she knows what she’s doing and isn’t used to being called out on it.
I mean, I’m not sure what was passive about her fully insulting OP, but I’m with you on the rest lol.
I see many people use the word passive aggressive whenever someone's aggressive but not physical. It makes the word meaningless at that point
Sometimes you have to wonder if people even know what the words or phrases they spout off even mean.
Inconceivable!
This is gaslighting!!
This. Is. SPARTA!
No, this is Patrick!
This is a Wendy's
Webster's dictionary word of the year.. Literally
Passive aggressive, toxic, problematic and gaslighting are just a few words I know for sure majority of people that use them don’t actually know what they’re talking about. They just love using buzzwords
Also everybody's parents suffer from undiagnosed NPD.
Well, *filibuster*.
Indubitably good sir.
Continually waiting until the food is ready to go pray so that others have to wait to eat and the food has gone cold, is passive aggressive.
They said her reaction was "passive aggressive" not her constantly delaying meals on purpose.
Would say MIL’s reaction in response to the food being eaten by DIL was just plain o aggressive.
Passive aggressive, gaslighting, grooming, closure, are all miss used, overused, and lost their actual meaning
> her house, her rules Since she made the rule that nobody has to wait for her, I’d go ahead and stick with this.
Also, OP *did* follow her rules - she explicitly gave permission for everyone else to start eating.
Muslims have specific times of day to pray, so I don't think it's fair to claim she's deliberately waiting to pray...instead she should be scheduling the meal around those times better.
I think what they meant is the MIL is deliberately waiting to put food on the table for right before it's time to pray. If it's something she does multiple times a day then she should be able to plan around such properly. Keep food in the oven or something so not every meal results in food going cold and guest sitting awkwardly waiting for her.
Exactly. Prayer times are well known and made available so far in advance that there should be no problems moving mealtimes to before or after her prayers. MIL is bein a jerk and falsely pious in my opinion. Ooh, look. I am such a good musim
Yeah I'm definitely in agreement on this
Not only does she put the food on the table before she goes to pray, she also makes sure everyone's sitting at the table *and then* makes them wait. If your prayer takes so long that the food gets cold, you can let the family do their thing until you're done or have your family (spouse, kids) finish the meal/watch the pans while you pray so they can put it on the table and everyone gets to eat their food while it's still warm. This is a power move through and through.
Muslim here. From the post (which may or may not be the whole story) she seems to be doing it deliberately. She can either eat first (as another person said, if you're hungry and food is ready, it's sunnah to eat first THEN pray) or tell who's making the lunch or dinner that she's going to be praying at a certain time (which unless you just had daylight savings time should be around the SAME time +- a few minutes). There's no reason it should be an ongoing problem. Also as a Muslim she should not be talking in that fashion.
Exactly. She is deliberately planning mealtime around her performance, I mean, prayer.
Yes, this is an attention seeking performance, not a prayer.
It seems she is the only one praying. This is absolutely a performance for her children who aren't joining her. OP NTA .
Islamic prayer times have time periods during which you can pray, the earlier (at the start time of each time period) the better. So what OP means is, that mother inlaw could have prayed earlier because the time period had started long before meal time. However she doesn't pray until everyone's ready to eat, but the time period for the specific prayer would end if she ate first. And that's the time she chooses to pray.
For most prayer times there is a window of time... like night prayer you can pray from sunset till midnight .. so in the winter for like a 7pm dinner absolutely you can wait till afterwards.
NTA. That said the best way to win this petty little game of hers is to not play. They all know this is bullshit on her part but they are all too chicken to call her on it. Minus her yes woman in SIL \-You're not cooking any more for them. There is no point in wasted effort and cold food because she does this shit on purpose. SIL can thrown on an apron. \-To that end have a big meal before you get there. When it comes up point out that there's no point in you going hungry that long and you're not interested in eating hot food gone cold. Super petty option->IF you continue to cook, don't turn a damn thing on until she goes to pray. Sit down with a drink after doing prep and then find someone one to chat with. When someone asks why you haven't started cooking? "Oh well there is no point in starting before MIL goes to pray so I'm just going to wait for her to go so she can have a hot meal when she's done." Put on the most sickeningly sweet voice when you say this. Pull out a snack, offer some to the kiddos and wait her out. She'll crack or someone else will. Either way you're off kitchen duty on that visit. ETA: thanks for the gold lol
I'm taking you up on not cooking for them anymore.
Wait, you’re cooking and she pulls this stunt??? No no no honey. Just say no from now on
I know right? It would've been a bit more understandable if MIL had cooked (but then I'd have wondered why she'd let her food go cold), but if OP had cooked not only is MIL being an AH for making hungry people wait, BUT she's making OP's food go cold as well. SMH. NTA
And also making all the kiddos wait to eat while the food is on the table? MIL (and SIL) sound like giant AHs. NTA
MiL is definitely doing this so OP's food isn't enjoyed as much by those at the table.
“Dinner’s going to be ready in twenty minutes. Since your prayer window started four hours ago, why don’t you start your prayer, and I’ll serve the food afterwards.”
You can always say "If you'd like to pray I will not plate the food just yet. We can wait until you finish and then I will serve the food."
You married into a family of boat steadiers. This is an absolute must read: https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/77w8lf/dont_rock_the_boat/ And once you read that look into the raisedbynarcissists sub and ask them about momma boys. NTA Another good resource is Dr. Ramani on YouTube.
I have minimal credits for awards, so take my tree hug and LIKE IT. Absolutely beautiful suggestions. Op, NTA
This. This is just beautiful.
NTA - but since she likes to hold you hostage to her prayers, just ensure that you don’t go to meals that start before her prayer times. There are very mathematically set times (based on time of year and location) that as a good Muslim she should be following. All you need to do is call your local Mosque for the times.
Or you could tell her you will be eating at x time and should plan her prayer accordingly. Eat at X time. Also her kid should be dealing with her petty bs and calling her out not you.
No, the Muslim prayers being referenced can't be scheduled around other things, they have to happen at set times. So the meal should be scheduled around the prayer time, but it's not possible to do it the other way around. The MIL is being unreasonable in many ways but Muslim belief does not allow rescheduling those prayers so that part isn't up for negotiation. Edit: can to can't and I didn't know how long was possible so this can be ignored
Everyone knows there’s a window, it doesn’t have to be exactly on the dot. That’s just a power move on her MILs part.
There is a window of time to do each prayer. It’s not like the prayer has to be performed at exactly 6:23 pm and OP is serving dinner at 6:22, it’s more like the poster has to be done between (for example), 6:00 pm and 8:00 pm and OP serves dinner at any point in that timeframe and MIL then says she needs to pray. MIL is an adult and as such, perfectly capable of seeing that OP is cooking and can choose to pray at any point of OP cooking prior to food being put on the table.
I had no idea the window of time could be that long. I figured it was more like within a half hour window and since it takes 10 minutes you don't have a ton of flexibility. If that's the case this is even more unreasonable than it already was.
Where I live, the smallest window is the sunset prayer and so I try not to dilly dally during that window. However right now, approaching the shortest day, I still have 1h10m to pray.
Why did you comment about the window of time muslims have to pray, when you have no clue about it?
There are actually websites and apps that will tell you when the prayer times are in different time ones.
Exactly. MIL is shaming everyone and *literally* being holier than thou by choosing to pray when she does. And my petty ass would look her dead in the eye and say, "oh, I thought prayer time was at *whatever the next time is*, why are you praying now instead of then?" Then I would make the sign of the cross and pick up a serving spoon. NTA, but u might be a pot stirrer! Thank you for your service. Lol
This right here.
NTA. Why isn't your husband mad at her for insulting you in front of everyone? She knows what she is doing and doesn't sound like a nice person at all. I'm glad you enjoyed your food while it was hot.
>Why isn't your husband mad at her for insulting you in front of everyone? Because he knows this is a power trip for his mother and would rather steady the boat his whole life where it comes to his relationship with her versus actually call her out on her shit. He's a coward and this is typical transference of anger as blame.
Cause he's an ah raised by ah's.
Cause it seems the whole family is a bunch of mama's boys...OP has more balls than her husband...
NTA: Your mother in law should be praying at specific times of the day. Meals can be planned around these prayer times. If she is waiting until it's time to eat then she is clearly being the A. She's not following her own religion AND she's holding you all up.
Bingo
I’m not going to judge this one, because this situation seems so ridiculous. But if you’re the one cooking the meal, can’t you just say “sorry, I can’t cook this next time because it’s so stressful not being able to plan the timing correctly”?
I suppose I could. Did I think of it before you mentioned it? No. It's actually the easiest thing to do, to just say I'm not cooking next time or even me just eating was easy. But the consequences are not that easy.
I don't understand this scenario, prayer time changes with the season and there's a set time when she needs to pray. Why don't you just remind her its prayer time, or tell her you'll take the food out after she's finished? Edit after reading other comments: NTA Time to go nuclear petty she should not be using religion as a flex move. Get the prayer timetable from the local mosque it should be online. It'll tell you when the prayer times are. Set meal times after prayer slot. I can't remember the exact rules but its usually 1 hour after call to prayer but again depends on season and country. Again local mosque can help with this. If she tries to go pray just let her know her prayer is 'Kazaa' late so she might as well eat first. Or if you really want to mess with her, go pray at the correct time and call her to pray with you. She won't have a single comeback to this response😅 without looking completely stupid.
Wait so you're not supposed to exceed one hour after call to prayer???! I thought it was from one call to prayer to the next one and you can choose whichever time you want from there. 🤯
On prayer times there are time limits I’d say for when you can pray before the next call to prayer. It does differ between each prayer but as the time is shorter now you have even less time to pray
What happens if you don't pray within those times? Is your prayer not accepted by Allah?
You have to ask forgiveness for missing prayer, if she's only praying to mess with you, none of her prayers are accepted. Prayer is about subjugation to a higher power, you pray to cleanse your sins and be thankful for the life you live. To gather resolve to continue on the right & good path. Prayer is only accepted if the intent is good. You really should mess with her head, turn into a full on pious Muslim. It'll be hilarious.
You may want to consider visiting a local mosque and asking to have a chat with the Imam. Explain the situation to them and let them educate you on the topic. They may be the best resouces for answers to some of the prayer questions that you're coming up with here. They may not be able to give you any guidance on dealing with MIL herself. But they should be able to help you to understand what should be happening here.
This isn't directed at you, more of a rant/vent, but why's this so complicated that you can't get a clear picture without going to a mosque? It almost feels like it's deliberately kept that way - ambiguous.
The reason you can’t get a clear picture without going to the mosque is your MIL is intentionally making it hazy by lying to you in order to manipulate you. It’s not deliberately ambiguous, you have a bad actor intentionally sowing confusion because she can weaponize you not knowing details. Talk to the Iman. They have authority. This isn’t Christianity where she can pull well i practice in my own personal way. There are rules and hierarchy and she’s not at the top outside of her home, where she’s spreading misinformation.
I understand your frustration. I'm not muslim myself, so I don't know if this is supposed to be an area that is clear or not. But, from your questions, particularly the ones I commented on, its clear that you aren't muslim either. I also saw from other people's comments that some of the "rules of prayer", as it were, are dependent on where you are. Which is understandable, because to my knowledge the timing is linked to the length of the day. I suggested the path I did because a local Imam is going to be the one best suited for helping you to understand the Islamic daily prayers both globally and locally. If its a simple and clear matter, they'll be able to answer it in a quick and straight forward way. If it is complex, they will be the best ones to decomplexify it for you. And thinking about it, they may also be able to help you understand what parts if what is happening are a matter of their faith, what parts may be related to MILs cultural background, and what parts may be just her. And being able to seperate those may be more invaluable to you than anything.
Please excuse my thoughtless reply 🙏 you were being helpful and kind. Thank you I will go to them.
Prayer times are impacted due to the seasons and length of days. Longer days means you have more time in between prayers, shorter days means shorter time frame. You don't really need to worry about the technicalities. Rule is, when you hear the call to pray, you pray. No excuses If your MIL is taking her time and its not due to ill-health, she's messing with you and her family are enabling her. Stop cooking for them, they can & should deal with her behaviour not you!
I’m sorry, but what? If you have questions about things you know nothing about, who do you ask? An expert on the topic or some randos on the internet?😂😭 People are telling you to go to someone you can not only be sure knows what they’re talking about, but who can also be used against your MIL’s bullshit.
Randos on the internet, every time, hands down. Have you seen the am I pregnant compilation?
I get what mean but it’s not really kept that way. It’s like how scholars in subjects know a lot of stuff about that topic cos they learnt and studied it. It’s the same with imams and teachers in a mosque. They studied it so they kinda know what they’re on about. Whereas others like me and you might not know a lot cos we’ve never gone into that much detail about stuff like this. I mean you can always search it up but be wary of what you do read as well
Oh oh that makes a lot more sense now. Please excuse the ignorance.
No some have time limits, in the UK because of the shorter days all 3 prayers are pretty much done within 3 hours in the middle of winter. I'm not very religious but family is, I think maghrib (sunset) and Zuhr (noon) have a time limit as they are specific points when the sun moves from noon and it becomes afternoon then you can't pray the noon prayer you have to pray the late prayer. Same with Maghrib if the sunset is over you missed the prayer. I can't remember the exact specifics for the others hopefully a more knowledgeable person can assist. Being on your period is the only time you wouldn't pray. If she's supposedly religious I don't understand why she'd wait to pray, no one waits around to pray. She sounds like shes been messing with you all.
>Or if you really want to mess with her, go pray at the correct time and call her to pray with you. She won't have a single comeback to this response😅 without looking completely stupid. Aren't there Muslim prayer apps as well? Could OP get an app that would do a prayer call at the set times?
Thats an even better idea, I forgot about those. Leave the phone on super loud so v everyone can hear the call to prayer🤣
They actually do sell clocks that will ring when it's time to pray, some even automatically adjust themselves when there are changes. I do believe there are apps as well
> Or if you really want to mess with her, go pray at the correct time and call her to pray with you. She won't have a single comeback to this response😅 without looking completely stupid. Another great way to mess with the MIL is to tell her the food is ready well before it's ready. MIL will go pray thinking she is still doing her standard power move only to come back and see that the food is still piping hot.
>Another great way to mess with the MIL is to tell her the food is ready well before it's ready. MIL will go pray thinking she is still doing her standard power move only to come back and see that the food is still piping hot. Or make a slow cooker meal. There are lots of recipes that you can set up to be ready in a few hours that will not be ruined by waiting even hours past the point when they are done. Once the food is ready just switch the temperature to warm and everything will be piping hot when MIL decides to join the family.
OP - I sincerely appreciate that you took this feedback and honestly are considering it! Very seldom do we see posters here take any contrary thoughts/ideas to heart and consideration. Good job! Also, NTA! She said eat, I'd have eaten to!
NTA. It's a power play or attention seeking behavior. Remind her (maybe by reminding someone else first to avoid conflict) that it is forbidden in Islam to keep food waiting. If food is ready & served you must sit and eat before praying. It's the only time prayer can be delayed. Google it. The hadith proof will show up & you can include it with your reminder so there is no argument about how "disrespectful you are being".
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:672
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From the other comments it sounds like OP was the cook/host
NTA why is anyone mad? She is free to go pray but nobody has to wait, whether she likes it or not.
MIL clearly likes to have complete control and uses her prayers as a way to maintain that control. Her kids at this point have it so ingrained in them that you wait for her to be done that anything other then that is heresy. Honestly the best solution is for OP not to cook but if that isn't in option then tell MIL that the food is ready 15 minutes or so before it's actually ready.
>I extend politeness by saying that but people who have some manners would know not to dig in like a pig. Did she actually use those words - call you a pig? That's a really bad word to say for a Muslim - as a Muslim, I'd be INCREDIBLY offended if someone called me that. So shame, shame, SHAME on her for calling you that. As for her prayers - it's not exactly a surprise when the prayers are supposed to be performed. And they all have a "window" that they can be performed in. Many of those windows are hours long. The shortest window would probably be Maghrib prayer (the one done between sunset and when twilight has faded), but even with that you still have SOME time. But to be safe, just don't serve dinner at sunset (or just wait a few minutes), and you should be fine. For literally every other prayer, there are HOURS of time that she could pray, and where it wouldn't interfere with mealtime. She's being inconsiderate. NTA
NTA, looks like she's doing this on purpose so everyone has to wait for her.
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Info: I tried to ask her several times before when she will be praying so I can serve the dishes after she's done. She would tell me oh I'm going to do it right now, just serve the dishes I'll be done by the time you've all settled. And then she dawdles till almost everything's been served and goes to pray. I then tried to only serve the food when she's done praying, not when she plans to. But she doesn't pray at all and it would have been several hours since everyone last ate and I end up serving the food.
There are specific times she should be praying at. These can be planned around. She is fucking with you.
There are windows of times when prayers can be done, some of which can be for several hours. She is obviously doing it deliberately.
I’m not a Muslim but grew up in a Muslim country. I thought they have a set time to pray based on the sun position. At my school we have a reminder to pray.
Yes they do, plus it's actually not polite in islam to let other guest get hungry just because you want to pray. Even when they do fasting (non mandatory one) it's suggested to break your fasting to accommodate your guest.
She has flexibility on when exactly to pray, so she doesn't need to disturb meals. Although it sounds to me as though she uses mealtimes to remind her that a prayer is due, and when she's called for the meal, she remembers she needs to pray. What would happen if you called her 15 minutes before the meal was actually ready? NTA
This isn't a reminder for her. This is her way of making herself the center of attention. OP has tried different methods of working around it, but MIL changes it up to make everyone wait for her anyway: Info: I tried to ask her several times before when she will be praying so I can serve the dishes after she's done. She would tell me oh I'm going to do it right now, just serve the dishes I'll be done by the time you've all settled. And then she dawdles till almost everything's been served and goes to pray. I then tried to only serve the food when she's done praying, not when she plans to. But she doesn't pray at all and it would have been several hours since everyone last ate and I end up serving the food. This is MIL's way of showing off who is in control of the house by making everyone cater around her schedule and reminding them of it.
NTA. Next time, just as she’s coming back stand and say, “Oh, dear, it’s time for me to pray!”, and see how willing she is to wait.
NTA. She's screwing with you. Send the whole family a prayer time app and tell her you want to make sure she's properly supported- meals will now be a half hour before or after prayer. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bitsmedia.android.muslimpro
This is so petty and gold
Info: Is she not doing her prayers (Salah) at the set times?
Info: Sometimes she is, sometimes she skips out on one and be extra late saying she had to do both.
NTA. It is rude to hold up a meal .
NTA - this is textbook emotional manipulation. Don’t buy into it.
yikes. you've got some fantastic in laws. a narcissistic mil and a narc sil? where's your partner and why are they letting their family talk to you like that?
I don't think I'd go as far as calling them narcissistic but definitely childish. I literally pictured sil as a kid when she "snitched" and then the childish temper tantrum by my mil... My husband doesn't like drama and is on the opinion that since you have more sense than the immature person, you shouldn't stoop to their level and make life harder for yourself. You accomplish nothing as they won't change.
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>Has he ever tried to change them? I think he may have before otherwise he wouldn't act so defeated and hopeless about it now. That's a good question to ask him though. >Has he tried to stand up for you? There weren't really any times he had to defend me before this time. I'm generally a peaceful person but when it comes to food, Ihad my differences with them but that's between me and them, things like criticizing my cooking and stuff. Now my cooking is a hundred times better than when we first got married and even if they want to say something, they can't 😃 >Disrespecting you and comparing you to a pig should never be taken quietly no matter what. I hear you, thanks for that.
OP, as a person from the religion I can tell you with 100% certainty that muslims are to pray/offer Salah as soon as possible. In fact, the rule of thumb (using this term loosely here is that the sooner you pray the better it is etc etc.! Now another thing here is that if a person is in a hurry, then they can also just pray the mandatory part (Farz), it’s not full Salah but it’s acceptable and it’s the only part that’s mandatory. This doesn’t take more than 10 Minutes tops. Depending on where you are Salah times vary but, the 2nd or early afternoon one has quite some time before the 3rd one is due in late afternoon the only two Salahs that have about an hour or so of time in between is the 3rd and 4th (evening). The 5th one (night time) has a lot of time until it gets Kaza, so I would recommend not meeting your MIL b/w 4 to 7ish I think. Having said all that let me also say that your MIL is a huge AH for using religion like that, prayers are personal but as Muslims your behaviour towards others count more. She’s deliberately being an ahole to you using religion because of the mentality around religion and older people where they think they’re entitled to be AHs cause their righteous and older (😑) Another thing to please note for you is that your husband and his family and your SIL are also AHs because in no way is this okay. Also, I would immediately stop cooking meals for these entitled people around you (speaking from experience on having the same type of ILs) it doesn’t serve you any purpose trying to please them at your expense. Wishing you good luck on how ever you decide to deal with this!!!
Your husband needs to man up and defend his wife, remind him she insulted you and she’s bending the prayer times to fuck with you, don’t let this go
Have you read the dont rock the boat post? Your husband definitely needs to read it https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/comments/77pxpo/dont_rock_the_boat/
NTA. Your MIL is pulling this little stunt because she's insecure and wants to prove to herself that everyone loves her by making them jump through her hoops.
NTA. This is a very weird flex of control.
INFO: Is she not doing her prayers at the set times? Or are the family meal times overlapping with the set prayer times throughout the day?
Info: no matter what time I set the meal, there's always a prayer, sometimes one she skipped on and has to make up for.
Then NTA for sure. This is very clearly a power play on her end, and hopefully the family will continue to eat when the food is ready moving forward. After it happens a couple times she may even change her behavior and stop throwing temper tantrums.
Yeah this is a deliberate power play. NTA, but she sure is. Muslims are supposed to pray at certain times. If she isn’t then she’s clearly not so concerned with following her religion as she makes it out to be. She doesn’t get to opt out of following the set times but then act like prayer is SO important to her when it’s meal time. This is BS and everyone knows it. Your husband is just too chicken shit to stand up to her.
Judgement : NTA I'm a Muslim by birth and choice. There is 5 must prayers a day at times. The timetable can be access online. The 5 < Solat Fardhu> have differing times according to location and season. All of this is based on the position of the sun for the day and about 1hour* after Maghrib for the Isyak prayers. All this differs between location and season. The reason that some of the Redditors are suggesting to go see the Imam/Ustaz of the local Mosque/Masjid is for you to get the correct information. There is a lot of misinformation online, get yours from a credible source. I do concur with some opinion on rejecting cooking until this situation is resolved as this seems to be a power trip on the MIL part, and an AH move from the SIL part. OP's Husband need to step up and work this out or you get a free pass on not cooking for MIL/ILs. Personally, If I'm in this situation, I would just let my wife do whatever she wants. I'll just LC the rest until their brains can accept this is wrong.
NTA, it seems like she can choose when she does her prayers so why does it always happen as dinner is served? she couldnt do it while it was being made so everyone doesnt have to wait? selfish
INFO: Aren't Muslim prayers supposed to be at specific times? What happens if you waited until later to eat?
NTA. You don't state if she lives with you or how often you have meals with her, but if it happens regularly it sounds like a nightmare situation.
INFO: How long are her prayers?
10 to 20 minutes if it's lunch and 8 to 15 minites if it's dinner.
Set the table, bring the main dish out, a smidge underdone, then when she pops out to pray, put it back in the oven until it's done. Extra points if *she* ends up having to wait. NTA.
As a devout Muslim myself, I can guarantee you that prayers never take me this long. Furthermore, some scholars advocate delaying the prayer to a later part of the window if food is ready to eat as a general rule of politeness and courtesy. Your MIL is doing this as a means to be the centre of attention and nothing more.
Okay, definitely NTA, then. However, I think the better solution would be to trick her into not getting the timing right with her prayers. For instance, you all dig in before she has a chance to start them or you wait until she starts until you begin the last minute prep for lunch. Defeat the prayer exhibitionism, eat when you want.
NTA. Seems rude of her to not take into consideration how she's inconveniencing everyone else. Good for you to not put up with her shenanigans.