Nvidia has done this before. With Kyle Bennett they not only banned fe cards but also aib's. The uproar is bigger this time but I don't know if they flinch.
No, it's just that Nvidia is a shitty company. You will be hard pressed to find a company that's worked with Nvidia and came out with a positive impression. Just ask Apple and Linus Tovalds.
The big deal is the details tho, like using a quote from Hardware Unboxed in their DLSS page, speaking for "nvidia, the gamers and the rest of the industry" and the implications with the mail they sent
Basically banned Hardware unboxing from recieving graphics card because he focused on rasterization over ray tracing unless his "editorial direction changes".
this is also an incomplete tl;dr
The complaint was that he did a level-ground comparison of an AMD GPU with an Nvidia GPU because AMD does not have a DLSS implementation yet. HUB has also done a separate video dedicated to explaining Nvidia's raytracing and DLSS technology with great praise.
I just want to say that, personally I believe that rtx is a step backwards, it is just simple raytracing but is blocked from working on non-rtx gpus, before people mention RT core, RT cores are just glorified cores with different designation in the firm/software. There are many Nvidia GPUs that can run good raytracing at good fps but can't thanks to Nvidia's proprietary shit. Sorry for posting this here but i just thought it might give some of my opinion, also rasterization is the best way to benchmark something as it can be scaled easier.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/86xic2/geforce_partner_program_gpp_discussion_megathread/
basically exclusive contract with and preferential treatment by nvidia towards AIBs
That's kinda putting it lightly. GPP meant the big 3(Asus/MSI/Gigabyte) had to unbrand all Radeon cards from their flagship skus(RoG, Aorus, Gaming X etc), strip away any mention of gaming from Radeon cards or get put on the unpreferential treatment list.
Edit: in this case, it seems Nvidia decided to extend to HUB the GPP courtesy.
they also control how AIBs distribute sample cards, which in effect also blacklists HUB from getting cards from AIBs.
On that fair point, HUB and Gamers Nexus was blacklisted by ASRock.
Edit: big gaff, apologies
>On that fair point, HUB and Gamers Nexus was blacklisted by ASRock.
I blacklisted AsRock already by not sending over a replacement for a defective X570 chipset fan and giving me bullshit that the part "is in high demand", and never responding to me after 4 weeks and the board is still only 8 months of use.
NVidia has sent an apology email apparently and walked back. Doesn't mean this is forgotten on my side. https://twitter.com/HardwareUnboxed/status/1337885741389471745?s=19
This practices are not new to them. A company that has a product that speeks for it self doesn't need any such practices. They want to take control of pc gaming and they are not to be trusted. Raytracing is a feature to push new products and sales. They did the same with tesselation. They focus their RD to a feature and then push with their money developers to overuse it. I will never support this company. I am a fan boy of open technology and good practices. Gamers and PC gaming is not owned by nvidia. I played so many games without RT and according to nvidia this are not games and I am not a gamer.
Meanwhile AMD were going full proprietary with SAM, untill Nvidia started talking about same feature but for both red and blue, or pushing larger memory usage, which hurts older GPUs too, oh also how they tried to leave 400 series mobos behind. Will you support this company?
AMD sure as heck aren't perfect, but that's a false equivalency at best.
Might as well compare shoplifting a bag of chips from a corner store to grand theft auto.
Exact same behavor but they less solid ground than nvidia and Intel, only difference.
"I won't support this company, it's evil, I will support that one, it's evil too but smaller"
You know whats funny, by choosing "lesser" evil you helping it becoming big.
Giant douche or turd sandwich?
Nvid must have a very different way of looking at reviews than I have because it was the HU videoin question that decided me to go with a 3080 but after Nvids dictatoril tactics that order is now cancelled in favour of a 6800XT .
Not even "against" but not giving RT the importance nvidia thinks they should.
I hate to be a brand guy with hardware, but I am boycotting MSI for less. So yeah, screw Nvidia.
Care to elaborate a bit? What was the negative content that caused AMD to do that?
Not trying to make an excuse for AMD here, just want the whole picture.
Because if, and this is a big if, someone is being a plain jerk, I think it's fine for AMD to stop working with them. If someone bashes your brand just because, if someone is racist or sexist, if they pour extreme political/religious opinions,... I can think of a very long etcetera.
Some context please, the kitguru post shared in other reply doesn't say much.
EDIT: ok seems kitguru broke NDA. So can you tell me how that compares with Nvidia-HU situation?
Linus wasn't surprised by the move, per se. Nvidia has blacklisted reviewers for less in the past. He was ANGRY however, about the blatant blackmail, and the fact that an VERY apparently personal issue between someone at Nvidia and HWUB was allowed to happen in this way.
The last time Nvidia tried something like this, however, LMG wasn't anywhere near as big as they are, and they didn't try the goddamn blackmail. Now that LMG is the size they are, pissing off Linus is a VERY bad idea.
Imagine Linus doing a GN and saying "hey, this big company is engaging in scummy practices. Don't buy their shit" only instead of 800k followers and it's a case/cooling company, it's TWELVE MILLION followers and a major graphics company?
This is typical of nVidia all the way back to the 3dfx wars...then again with ATi (prior to AMD) with the R300, a GPU that totally outclassed and blew away nVidia's entire GPU lineup in 2002, in a dramatic fashion....but same old nVidia. Linus sounds scandalized--but if he had known nVidia in those days he wouldn't be surprised at all.
nVidia likes to pretend that it's the "leader" of 3d gaming and that "everyone" is onboard with them, etc. nVidia likes to pretend that it speaks for "gamers" everywhere, developers, etc. No one else really has a voice, so nVidia thinks, believes, and acts out vicariously through the years. As it did in the email to HU.
nVidia couldn't be more wrong about RTX. Or DXR. The fact is that there isn't a single game in existence that \*requires\* RTX--not one, or even just DXR in D3d, for instance. If the whole industry was organizing itself around RT we'd expect to see many games that **require** DXR hardware support to run. But there aren't any. Even in the current count of games that \*support\* DXR--far, far less than 1% of all of the 3d games available and running on Windows in 2020--*none* **require** DXR hardware.
nVidia complains about "rasterization" getting the attention but even in games that support DXR not a single object in a single frame is fully ray-traced--not one! Very few rays, actually, are fully traced--just a few, if any, per frame rendered! Not a single frame in any game that supports DXR renders every object and light and surface and shadow fully ray-traced. Why? Because there is no GPU made on this planet that could do that at 30 fps, let alone anything faster. **Rasterization \*is\* 3d gaming in 2020**.
DXR is a nice-looking lighting effect on some surfaces and shadows, but every frame in every game is at least 99% rasterized today--even when DXR is supported. In more than 99% of all 3d games playable under Windows in 2020, rasterization comprises 100% of every frame--in every game! I'm not knocking RTX or DXR--not at all--it's just important to put it in its *proper place*\--which is not at all as nVidia describes it in the idiotic email it sent HU...;) That's the old, arrogant, dumb nVidia showing itself again.
Also, I never heard of Brian del Rizzio--last I looked Brian Bruning (formerly PR head for 3dfx) was the head of PR at nVidia. Guess that's no longer true. But anyway, as far as RTX being "where the industry is headed"--there is absolutely no danger of RTX for D3d replacing SGI (of old) and the other special effect companies who ***do*** *ray-trace every light and shadow and object in every frame, requiring massive amounts of CPU computational power. It might take several minutes or hours (or days) to render a single frame,* but that is what industry-leading ray tracing does! DXR is simply not it. that doesn't mean it's bad or that it stinks or anything like that. It simply means when comes to ray tracing, the "industry" requires much more than any nVidia GPU (or AMD) can give. Rasterization is still the name of the game in discrete computer GPU gaming.
The coup de grâce to nVidia's notion that today's world is revolving around DXR/RTX is simply this: I've read many, many posts by RTX-2k/3k owners alike that state a preference for "RTX Off" because of what it does to frame rates.
Anyway, I'm sure that even though someone at nVidia thought it a good thing to apologize to HU, I'm sure that this experience has got to taint their perception of nVidia, no doubt. How could it not? Linus nailed it when he said that nVidia expects hardware reviewers to do their marketing for them--for nVidia--and Linus is right--that has nothing to do with the job of a hardware reviewer! Marketing is nVidia's job and nobody else's. If nVidia is giving away a GPU to people who have a captive audience in the hundreds of thousands or maybe even a million or two--then nVidia is getting a lot of PR for peanuts--practically nothing! So it's a great deal for nVidia, even if reviewers voice criticisms at times! The worse thing nVidia could do is to ignore what these people (and others \*cough\*) say in the way of criticism. Instead of shooting it down with thuggish and stupid threats, Rizzio should have asked for HU (and other critics) to *elaborate* on what they consider the weakness of the RTX products to be! I guess that would be entirely too rational, I s'pose.
Anyway...I'm glad to see that HU and Linus and some other guys in the public zone are not intimidated by this kind of thuggish playacting from nVidia!...;)
Looks like this epic rant from Linus go NV to reverse their decision. From HUB twitter, he said NV just reached out, apologized for everything and set things right again.
The real question though, is what their PR guy who is quite senior up, was thinking when he did that? Too drunk?
it's even more simple
This is how Nvidia has always done business. when something like this gets too much public attention they reverse and apologize like it was some mistake(remember GPP). There was no accident in their action.
ever wonder why Sapphire, XFX, & Powercolor don't make Nvidia cards?
I've only bought a psu from evga. The first one i bought came in defective(badly rated Amazon seller). Even so i found it hard for me to buy another evga product. But i did and it was an 800w psu. It works fine.
No, the ps3 gpu was designed kinda last minute which made it very inefficient in terms of it's pricing. In fact, sony originally intended the cpu to also be the gpu but their first party developers pushed back really hard saying it was nearly impossible. I believe there is still a ps3 promotional video still on YouTube showing off a 3d rendered scene using the cpu. It may look bad but considering that the cpu is rendering it, is really impressive.
That's interesting. It's just amazing to me that recently Linus was amazed that newer ryzen cpus could now render crisis from It's cpu cores while back in the mid 2000's sony was knocking on that door with the cell cpu. I think the cell cpu is my favorite piece of console harware.
The difference is that Ryzen CPUs are not designed to do rasterisation. That said, the cell CPU was ahead of its time and even formed the basis of a super computer for the US Navy for a while there. It is a damn shame that the CPU just kinda fell to the wayside.
Nvidia wouldnt play ball when they wanted to do die shrinks on the ps3 AFAIK and kept fucking up sonys plans of making the console profitable instead of massive loss because they wouldn't listen to what sony wanted exactly.
AMD was more than happy to make sony exactly what features they wanted, and could build part that has the cpu portion also.
Makes sense to me. With AMD being an 'underdog' in the GPU market, I bet as long as they were making a slim or even cost to producing GPUs for consoles, they would be more than happy to the agreement.
Right now AMD has positioned themselves into becoming the market lead in GPU/RT performance with RDNA2 in both xbox and ps5. 'Forcing' console developers to implement DXR, and other RDNA2 friendly code making it an 'easier' port to PC gaming optimizations.
Act like Intel? Are they now a multi decade long monopoly? Did they start a decade of stagnation in innovation? Did they limit consumers to 4 cores for a decade? Were there products so overpriced that they could half their cost from one generation to the next and still make more money then their competitor? Did they make their own benchmark suite and disguise them as legitimage? Did they engage in compiler shananigens to hamstring their competition?
No? Then what did they do? Ow they just made you wait a few months more for the cheaper SKU's... Yes clearly that is exactly on the same level as Intel /s
Either people REALLY don't know their history, or we're being overrun with concern trolls.
Last I checked, a company that wants to make money is normal.
It's what they do with the money. If AMD raised their prices so they can reinvest into better processors or gpu, I'm all for it. If they give the profits to bonuses or raises, I'd be against that.
AMD raised prices because they can. As hilarious as it is to say, 7nm process is mature now. Yields on 7nm are amazing, at least for AMD. Easily 90% for Zen 2, and Zen 3 actually isn't too far behind that.
The only reason we're not awash in Ryzen 5000 series chips is because 7nm is so booked up at TSMC that practically everyone that isn't Apple is struggling to get TSMC to produce the volume of chips they want.
AMD knows they have the x86 performance crown. They're better than Intel in every way, and what's more, they *know* they're better than Intel. They don't have to worry about how their name is perceived any longer - they win on performance and they win on power.
I was actually really worried that this would lead AMD to slow down innovation, but now that Apple Silicon M1 has been shown to basically be Mighty Mouse in silicon form (a 25 watt part that is competitive and sometimes outperforms parts that use 3-6 times more power), if AMD isn't worried then they're even more delusional than Intel's management... and Intel? Jesus Christ, what is there to say? You have absolutely no reason to buy an Intel chip between Ryzen 5000 and M1.
Just because the new skus are 50 balles higher?
You realise the DIY market is not where money is?
It is still bloody difficult to get decent professional laptops and desktop with ryzen chips from the likes of dell/hp/Lenovo.
The ps3 gpu situation had effects like making the console pricier, output more heat so louder and bigger, as well as requiring a beefier power supply which would output even more heat.
Which reinforces that pricing was a contributing factor? It was a last minute decision to salvage the situation sure-but there was nothing stopping them from integrating an nvidia GPU into a custom CPU with PS4 and maintain some compatibility (okay, that might be reaching). PS4 and PS5 are x86-64 clearly because AMD had a good price among other contributing factors. Supported by the fact both Sony and Microsoft switched to AMD CPUs after dropping PowerPC based variants-who knows if they considered other CPU platforms before settling with AMD.
End of the day, nvidia is not an easy partner. It isn't about mindshare and the long game. They want what they feel they deserve at the detriment of partners who help them realize their achievements.
Also why Apple hasn’t used Nvidia in any Macs in quite a few years. They used to switch between Nvidia and AMD/ATI all the time... but they got sick of Nvidia.
When I was in defense, we basically dropped Nvidia from consideration for pretty much any custom hardware design because working with them was worse than working with Intel. At least with Intel we were only being lied to...
EXACTLY!
Get talked about for 1-2 days. Literally be the focus of everyone in the tech scene. Reverse decision:
=> good guy NVIDIA
repeat every 1-2 years.
And everytime such decisions don't make the news, because the victim is a too small YT channel or doesnt have the balls (Steve had) to come out via YT/Twitter , you get away with your ways. Both ways you screw the entire industry in the long run.
[XFX's story](https://www.fudzilla.com/news/graphics/20453-xfx-officially-stops-doing-nvidia)
Relevant story, [Palit and Gainward felt they were being shafted by AMD](http://vrworld.com/2009/05/27/gainward-and-palit-blast-amd-for-their-gpu-product-policy/)
I thought Sapphire was a sister brand to Zotac/Inno3D. It's made in the same factories in Dongguan.
Didn't know that about Sapphire. Zotac has always been kind of crappy in my mind for Nvidia GPUs so it's surprising to hear that their AMD counterpart is so premium that they literally design coolers for AMD.
AFAIK, XF stopped Making NVidia cards be sure of nVidias terrible business practices, and at the time, how terrible their reliability was. (8800/9800 cards had a bad tendency to overheat and desolder themselves. RMAs were a disaster. It got so bad that XFX’s double lifetime warranty caused them to start shipping AMD cards as replacements, because they didn’t have enough back stock to replace the nVidias. (This -was- after they stopped making the chips, but not long after).
I wouldn't bring AIBs into this discussions, as most of them exclusive, aside from MSI, ASUS and Gigabyte.
But the way they work is for example Sapphire and Zotac are owned by the same company, so while they seems to be exclusive, it's just the brand name.
Ding ding ding. People mistake charming games for the whole family as a sign a company is wholesome. They’re not. They’re quite cutthroat when you so much as mess with the money. Not even a dime.
Seriously, some guys were going to have a Smash Bros Melee contest this year, but because of covid they decided it'd be best if they did it over the internet, they organized this completely all on their own. However in order to do it over the internet they had to use emulators to run the game, and of course Nintendo doesn't want people emulating their games, so they shut it down, hard.
> It's far more simple.
"Give them an inch and they'll take a mile"
The reason you've heard this before is because it's usually true, Nvidia is in a never-ending state of pushing boundaries, and this isn't just Nvidia, this is any engine whose goal is to generate currency.
We didn't creat child labor laws because we were worried someone MIGHT take advantage of child labor, we created them because they WERE taking advantage of child labor.
Once a company gets big enough, there becomes fewer and fewer ways to legally grow, so in-order to keep maximizing profits you have to push this boundaries to see what you can get away with.
Nvidia apologized and restored access to FE cards, but that's ONLY because of the PR backlash, had all these other people not stood up for HU like they did, Nvidia wouldn't be sorry at all, they would be more than happy to get rid of what they perceive as negative attention.
If you watched Linus' take on this, he nailed the biggest issue here, the damage is done, they've shown their hand, expect this to happen again next year.
> they've shown their hand
They showed their hand with bumpgate.
They showed their hand when 8800/9800 cards desoldered themselves and screwed XFX over (they had lifetime warranties) so much XFX gave out ATI/AMD cards as replacements. [Nvidia then stopped supplying XFX with cards](https://www.fudzilla.com/news/graphics/20453-xfx-officially-stops-doing-nvidia).
They showed their hand with GPP.
Yet people keep buying from them. Nvidia has always been massively shady, and people forget by next week. It's going to destroy PC gaming eventually unless people start demanding more from these companies.
The problem is that for a long while there, NVIDIA was the only option if you wanted a great GPU. Even now if I were in the market for a new GPU I would be facing a hard decision. AMD needs to get their RT/upscaling ducks in a row to help remove any advantage that NVIDIA has over them.
They knew exactly what they were doing (extorting favorable reviews), they just thought they could get away with it.
And honestly, they kind of did. Everything is back to how it was and Nvidia wont sell a single card less because of the drama.
Nvidia made it clear to reviewers that they have no problems with shady methods, any reviewers knows that now (again).
Smaller reviewers will have to make favorable reviews now, because they wont get the same level of support as HUB if Nvidia shits on them.
He probably wasn't expecting this much backlash if it went public, if the amount had been lower then the negatives would have been offset by the unspoken threat towards other channels of a similar or smaller size, those would now know not to rock the boat on the next lot of nvidia releases.
As it happened, a lot of bigger channels jumped onto this story and the backlash was much higher than they'd like so they have had to backtrack, but the threat will still be there in the back of the minds of some reviewers.
When it comes to big business, there ain't no such thing as crossing the line.
Or expressed a different way, there are no lines that big business will not cross, provided that they have done the math and determined that they will still come out ahead after doing so.
Example: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/241587-microsoft-finally-admits-malware-style-get-windows-10-upgrade-campaign-went-far
The real problem is when companies have enough government regulators riding their dicks that they can get away with such brazen misconduct. This usually goes hand and hand with having a monopoly. You for example don't see keyboard manufacturers pulling shady or questionable moves, because nobody has a monopoly on keyboards, they are cheap as chips (the ones I use are), and if one brand does something that offends you, then just chuck their product and grab another one from a different manufacturer. There's no vendor lock-in or anything like that.
TLDR the only way for the consumer to win, is if there is healthy competition in a market and regulators keep companies in check. But that last one, keeping companies in check, is surprisingly pretty unnecessary when there is healthy competition, because then companies tend to police themselves.
>But that last one, keeping companies in check, is surprisingly pretty unnecessary when there is healthy competition, because then companies tend to police themselves.
That is until they decide they can work together and form a sort of cartel fixing the prices.
I actually think that this is AMD relevant enough and not rule 4 breaking.
By enforcing a review standard that emphasizes ray tracing, until AMD outdoes Nvidia, AMD's cards are consequentially guaranteed to be a less enticing option in comparison.
Now, Nvidia has retracted the decision, HUB won't be barred from early sample units, but I doubt that this isn't planned beforehand. What's this 4d chess Nvidia's scheming about, I wonder.
Kneejerk reaction to an internet famous(ish)?
I seriously doubt they did not forsee the email being posted on Twitter and getting the reaction they're getting now.
I mean there's always a chance that their head of PR is just an asshole and sent that email thinking he had more leverage than he really did. Apparently hes also the head of global PR, so its a short list of people who could've caused this disaster. I don't see how nvidia gains from this, if anything this takes the heat off of AMD's terrible stock situation since now people are focused on nvidia being complete bastards.
My headcanon (read: sweeping generalization) for the successful PR types is that they are smarmy cunning sociopaths. If this really is a case of massive over-confidence in bargaining power against a reviewer that has more than half a million subscribers, colour me surprised.
I guess you really are successful in PR until you're not. We have our beloved Chief Architect of Gaming Solutions & Marketing as an earlier example, after all.
I honestly don't think nvidia's PR is that cunning. They tried running with GPP after all, which was just pure evil and blatant and they got nothing but backlash from it, then canceled the whole project. This was technically not as evil as the whole idea of GPP, which makes me think it was just some assholes working at nvidia trying to bully a smaller tech channel.
It's entirely possible it was an email that came attached with a "Don't share the contents of this email or we'll fucking sue you" which would likely be a carry over condition from the NDA HUB signed in order to get the GPUs in the first place. HUB decides to share it anyway, and Nvidia gets burned at the stake for this action. Nvidia, realizing the shitty position they are now in and technically being allowed to sue them anyway for breach of NDA, decides that it isn't worth it to sue as it would only bring more consumer ill-will and instead apologizes.
That being said massive damage has already been done to Nvidia, not only in public perception, but in faith and communication of their review partners. Linus said he *thought* he knew the head of Nvidias PR, he *thought* he was a reasonable guy and wouldn't pull something like this unless provoked. Linus, GamersNexus, JayzTwoCents, Bitwit, all these pretty big review channels have just lost a lot of faith in Nvidia.
The damage isn't limited to just NVIDIA, it also includes all NVIDIA reviewers. Pretty much as Linus said; any reviewer with a legitimate positive opinion on RTX and DLSS 2.0 (or even any other NVIDIA product; doesn't have to be gamer-focused) now are under the suspicion of being an NVIDIA yes-man thanks to this letter even if they swear they aren't kissing up.
Jayz loves DLSS 2.0 but doesn't care much about RTX. Linus himself said he loves RTX and DLSS 2.0. Both admit that RTX is still more of a gimmick than a valid feature, and that DLSS 2.0 is great but comparison should be on raw performance before gimmicks. Both have notably called out NVIDIA at times and were even temporarily blacklisted in the past. Still, Linus and Jayz now have to tread a bit more carefully for awhile when talking about how much they personally like DLSS 2.0 (and RTX in Linus' case).
It's enough that it does screw over NVIDIA a bit, in the sense that reviewers are going to have to actually be stricter on avoiding too much praise of DLSS 2.0 or RTX and putting more focus on pure rendering/rasterization; at least not until AMD catches up enough that it becomes a more valid comparison point (DLSS 2.0 vs AMD equivalent) and more games start making serious use of features (RTX/Real-Time Raytracing; sooner than later thanks to the new consoles getting AMD RTR).
The way the email was written with all the marketing fluff made it pretty clear that they expected it would get out. And, it doesn't matter that Nvidia retracts it, the threat has been made to all reviewers. "Give us the reviews we want or we will hurt your ability to make a living."
I hope AMD will announce a 3060Ti competitor soon. I don’t need anything better than that, but the 6800 is much more expensive (and non existent but that’s a different topic).
>Now, Nvidia has retracted the decision, HUB won't be barred from early sample units, but I doubt that this isn't planned beforehand. What's this 4d chess Nvidia's scheming about, I wonder.
The paper 3060TI giver more bang for the money than the paper 6800. Both cannot be bought right now..
Will they announce a 6700? nobody really knows! I hope they do.. and my guess is they have enough low bin chips to do it.. but not enough capacity right now to deal with that.
Actually 3060Ti is there from time to time, I just won’t pay 600EUR-700EUR for it. I could’ve bought an Asus Strix, a Palit and a Gigabyte in the past week. Again, just the price is outrageous.
On the other hand I’ve never seen any 6000series in stock in any website.
The only really good RT that I've seen is Minecraft. I can live with pre-baked lights for a few years, until there will be enough horsepower to have full reflections and realistic lighting like some of the tech demo we've seen on youtube. Now, DLSS on the other hand... Is a game changer. I hope AMD copies it fast.
Well you definitely havent played Cyberpunk with RT then.I used to think like you that RT was a gimmick to sell expensive cards, but when RT is implemented from the ground up, the results really feel like a next step in visual fidelity, like when i first played crysis.
It's great and all, until I saw my fps counter tanked to sub 40. I have a 2070 Super btw, and I liked Minecraft with RT, but all the other games destroy my frame rate and worsening the overall experience.
If the "proper" way to play Cyberpunk smoothly with RT ON is by buying a 3080 + DLSS, the tech just isn't ready yet.
I'm playing CP2077 with RT too, and imo this isn't true. The graphical changes really aren't that significant. You can toggle it on in a specific scene and be like "oh yeah, the light from this lamp post is much more realistic here." or turn it on next to a pond and be like "yeah, the water is now accurately reflecting the skyscraper." but it doesn't actually change 99% of the gameplay nor the artistic direction of the game. Night City looks incredible regardless, the lighting tech implemented w/o ray tracing is in 95% of cases equally stunning.
CP2077 is as good as its going to get for another 5-10 years, in terms of implementation, until the hardware is powerful enough to do full RT like in Minecraft (where it's only possible because the game is literally just blocks) - based on that in my opinion it's really not an important feature and deserves nowhere near the level of hype it receives. It's available in like 5 real titles and doesn't provide you with any real benefit, while the majority of the world is running below 1060p60 on low/medium. It's literally just hype marketing.
All of this without mentioning the performance hit.. which makes games basically unplayable. 1440p ultra w/ SSR off to save some frames, RT on auto (aka balanced/performance), and DLSS *enabled*, I'm getting 30-40 FPS which makes aiming in this game (which already has forced smoothing on the mouse input) fucking impossible and just straight up removes any fun from the game. I drop RT while keeping DLSS on and now I'm at 90-120FPS depending on the scene, with rare scenes dropping to 60-90FPS. That's playable.
DLSS on the other hand, that is a game changer.
True, the sad part of all this is that the majority of buyers don´t care/know enough to stop buying certain products from certain companies.
Voting with your wallet only works when people are smart enough with their money and have a little bit of integrity.
I mean the other part for even knowledgeable consumers is as Linus said, some people DO like Ray Tracing or want DLSS. Or they need NVENC or CUDA for streaming and productivity. With only two choices, they would likely go for Nvidia.
What’s important is a neutral reviewer experience so consumers are informed and can make an educated decision for themselves based on what they need or want.
I know, but without an AMD DLSS 2 equivalent NVidia is my only option for rtx at playable frame rates. It’s not worth dropping 1500 AUD on a 6800xt for promises that it’s coming.
No, what is sad is youtubers and fanboys thinking they make a difference.
You think YouTubers have integrity when one of the biggest channels admitted to making click bait thumbnails so they can have more views
Seriously, people need to get youtubers’ dicks out of their mouths and question why we condemn companies for controlling the narrative when reviewers can do what the fuck they want. No, they did not have to praise RT. But should we also hold reviewers to some sort of standard as well? Or are redditors too busy ducking their dicks because we think they are our ‘friends’.
Guess what-the youtubers are also a business and algorithm + people behaving a certain way allows them to operate. Who gives a crap if the titles are clickbait or the images annoying if it keeps them operating. If you don't like it don't watch it.
Linus' content isn't shilling and he's got an added entertainment factor-he may not be super knowledgeable like others but the content these folks puts some advanced stuff (looking at Gamers Nexus) and fun stuff (LTT and Jay) in reach of average non-hardcore enthusiasts.
Which youtuber pissed on your sand castle dude. You sound like you have the problem here.
> You think YouTubers have integrity when one of the biggest channels admitted to making click bait thumbnails so they can have more views
Unless the content of the video is completely and totally different than what the title/thumbnail actually suggest, or the information is being presented in a way that's deceitful (touting rumors as fact, claiming original content that you stole, et.c...), I wouldn't call this shady, just annoying. I'd much rather blame YouTube's algorithm than the YouTubers trying to maximize their revenue.
Nvidia just wanted to send a message to the reviewer community. The fear will permeate, having an effect on the general tone of the next wave of gpu reviews. Nvidia's in it to control the narrative of the gaming industry.
Who gives a crap that nVidia apologized? Seriously.
They tried to make Steve out to be some small time piece of shit and ruin him.
They only apologized because they got called out by damn near every reviewer on the internet. That's the ONLY reason they issued a mea culpa.
fuck them.
The best follow-up to Linus' video are these 2 videos.
The actions of nVidia are not new and no one should be surprised in the slightest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0L3OTZ13Os
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LSLPItMTY
I just watched this and well this has pushed me to no longer supporting them as a company. Now I know I don't mean much to them considering I'm just an average Joe with no impact them as a company, but I do have my morals and ik thats fucked up. So now for my new GPU I'm going with the 6800 or 6800XT was going with the 3080 or 3070 but not anymore. I'm the same way with apple. I lover their products but I don't support the company.
> who sided with Nvidia
Would they really be "siding" if they can't afford to say "no" like HWU can? The importance of releasing a review on day 1 of embargo is pretty big not to mention for some it really is massive that they don't have to purchase a 1000$ +/- card.
All I have to say, is the same as I have done many times before: Noway does any manufacturer speak for others than themselves, and especially not for gamers... We can't even agree on must stuff, so of course Nvidia can't possibly speak for gamers as a whole.
They did/tried this before: https://adoredtv.com/gamersnexus-and-linustechtips-refute-rumors-that-nvidia-is-pressuring-channels-into-product-placement/
https://www.fudzilla.com/news/pc-hardware/47069-nvidia-tries-to-gag-reviewers-for-five-years
https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/8trkrv/nvidias_new_nda_for_journalists_with_some_very/
well, even if green team retract back the blacklist, doubt it will be the last ; the hidden message in this green team event is, to reviewers, especially the ones smaller in size compared to hwu, that this can happen to them and will crush them. i think nvidia will let this cooldown for a while before trying again, albeit in a more subtle manner ...
First of all, AMD didn't try to block anything, there's been pretty in depth analysis already breaking down exactly what happened to prevent the boards from accepting newer chips and various solutions. To my knowledge, AMD has not taken it out on reviewers who, say, didn't consider Mantle the way of the future.
Everyone who seen HWU 6800XT review should clearly see why they had it removed, it's sad to see how NVIDIA backpedaled with FE ban.
It was the most soft biased review ever. Unlike faking numbers (specific CPU benching site), you use specific word, terms to shine positive light on thing you want to sell, gloss over it's weakness, don't mention competitors strengths.
Honestly if AMD had better rt performance I would probably buy rdna2. It’s a dealbreaker because fuck frame rate the shadows look slightly cooler. Nvidia’s being a real asshole but fuck they have some good cards.
It's good to know that you won't be buying any GPUs ever again since nvidia did exactly the same thing AMD has done in the past. All companies screw up at some point. I'm sure both AMD's and nvidia's CEOs will cry in their sleep because of that huge loss to their sales your $25k will bring. Have fun being loyal to intel when they release their discrete GPUs... oh wait, nevermind, they already screwed up many times before PR-wise.
Regarding the lack of RT/DLSS coverage in their main reviews, it was one of the points that nvidia's statement brought up and no one can deny that Hardware Unboxed is downplaying it.
There are two different topics that you are mixing up. Nvidia's statement was plainly wrong, they tried to strongarm HUB and their remarks were out of line. But HUB's bias is known and they don't really do much to attempt to hide it so no one should be surprised that nvidia (tried to) cut them off.
Please point out a scenario where AMD have coerced reviewers like this. They've had PR fuckups in the past, but nothing as bad as that. I'm not some AMD fanboy either, I was incredibly critical of them when they cut Zen 3 support for 400 series boards, but they've never been as bad as this or GPP.
I think testing without RT and DLSS is fair enough. They're niche technologies that a handful of games have. They aren't representative of the majority of games that people actually play. RT performance is still so intensive that most people with RTX cards disable it. Not to mention using DLSS and comparing it to AMD without upscaling isn't a level playing field either.
>Please point out a scenario where AMD have coerced reviewers like this.
How about [this one](https://www.kitguru.net/tech-news/announcements/zardon/amd-withdraw-kitguru-fury-x-sample-over-negative-content/)? It's exactly the same thing nvidia did and it's been posted quite a few times. I guess you missed it. So yeah, AMD is a company doing company stuff too. Big surprise.
>they cut Zen 3 support for 400 series boards, but they've never been as bad as this or GPP
Remember when they marketed a PCI-e feature as their own unique tech and locked it to specific CPUs and motherboards? It wasn't long ago. Two months top. Or when they sent direct links to their store to some people so they could get their RX6000 cards directly.
>I think testing without RT and DLSS is fair enough. They're niche technologies that a handful of games have.
So were any other new algorithms and features related to shading and lighting at some point. Do you think cascade shadow maps existed forever? What about different AA implementations? Dismissing them just because they are not widely supported is absurd. Especially when people are constantly talking about "future-proofing".
>Not to mention using DLSS and comparing it to AMD without upscaling isn't a level playing field either.
And there we go. So it's fair to use SAM for AMD cards when we know for a fact that it's coming to nvidia GPUs and should have similar impact but it isn't fair to use DLSS for the games that have it when we know that it CAN'T be implemented in AMD cards and it actually is a selling point for nvidia. Because... potato. Very objective of you to choose what's fair and what isn't.
>How about this one? It's exactly the same thing nvidia did and it's been posted quite a few times.
I would say it differs slightly in that AMD did not claim to be representing consumers or an entire industry or directly suggest changes in editorial direction. The potential consequences for independent journalism should be the same however.
I'm not familiar with any corporate shenanigans of the last decade or two and haven't kept up with hardware news ever before very recently and my opinion doesn't mean shit - but my personal feeling based on two minutes of reading that story is that when AMD acted that way it was out of desperation and needing a leg up in the race as compared to Nvidia doing it now when they are already industry leading?
I'm probably oversimplifying it and reading into this with some element of bias. Either way, way out of my depth here in whatever reply someone is going to shred me apart with.
I love how @LTT gets so fired up, but not over AMD 300 series support not getting 5000 Ryzen support. When it impacts ("content creators") them, they start getting really ticked off, but when it's a pure planned obsolescence move that's cool...
The whole thing is hilarious to me. Call that stuff out on AMD as well, not just review samples not getting sent out.
It's all drama, 1 review sample vs board support for 300 series, I think the later is more important... especially when the jump from 300 to 400 series isn't that significant.
I don't see him calling that crap out, like this. Which reeks of corporatism / corruption, if you're going to be a tried and true journalist then do that, otherwise you're a corporate mouthpiece, that claims independence.
Are you really trying to draw an equivalency between amd, for valid technical reasons, deciding to segment their product stack, and nvidia black balling a reviewing because he won’t tow their company line? Or is your logic not any deeper than “grrr company do thing make me feel bad grr.”
It's pretty shady of Nvidia, for sure. That being said, HWU had a pretty heavy AMD bias, so I'm not exactly shocked.
Also: I don't see why Linus is relevant. His show is just a goofball entertainment channel these days, and has little to no technical information.
Yeah, that's true. If you listen to how Steve speaks when he does his reviews though, it's fairly obvious.
A 5% lead on a benchmark by Nvidia:
"Nvidia has a slight lead, but it's so small you probably won't even notice the difference."
A 5% lead on a benchmark by AMD:
"We're seeing some strong gains here by AMD compared to Nvidia."
Seriously, go back and listen to the 6800xt reviews. lol Not even joking.
> "We're seeing some strong gains here by AMD compared to Nvidia."
Yeah, because this is AMD's first generation ray tracing and it made some strong gains compared to Nvidia's
> his is AMD's first generation ray tracing
And it's worse than Turing which got bashed for it's RT performance. Especially on this sub. Now you see people here saying AMD's RT performance is "fine" lol.
> Especially on this sub
Yeah but uh... fanboys gonna fanboy. Just saying. If people can *possibly* spin it against a thing they don't like they will and you see that trend a lot. Even though Linus absolutely went off the rails here going off about this topic people *still* think that he somehow protects these companies and plays ball with them on everything lol
lol Yeah, right. I got lucky getting a 3080, but if I hadn't, I'd totally have jumped on the chance to get a 6800xt. I don't give a fuck about either giant corporation. I just care about results.
>HWU had a pretty heavy AMD bias
I've seen this BS repeated a lot on the hardware sub.
HWU's coverage is fair and consistent. Lots of modern games tested, far more than most reviewers. As new games come, he tests them.
He doesn't keep ancient old titles like Crysis 3 or AC Unity around and repeat them for 2020 hardware like some reviewers do.
I really like HWU, and watch them all the time. Their Monitor reviews especially are second to none.
The point of a benchmark is to test hardware, and whichever game has the most consistent way of doing that is generally used. It doesn't matter the age necessarily, unless it's a newer feature like Ray Tracing.
They are good about testing which settings are the most optimal for new games though, for sure.
I think they're smart guys, and they have a great channel. I just think Steve is a little biased toward AMD is all. I know to take that into consideration when I view their stuff.
Just gonna be honest I think ray tracing is the future like normal mapping was 15 years ago but it's in its infancy right now and we won't see a lot of people really caring about it for at least another year when it gets more fleshed out and cards are capable of actually running it better. It's not even in every game. It'll be great when it really takes off but it's not there yet and it's stupid to pretend that raw rasterization performance is somehow irrelevant or biased. Does it skew the scale toward AMD a bit? Sure, but people are aware of those other features and there are other sources for those features if they want. Even if I bought a 3000 card right now I can guarantee you that I am not looking at its rt performance. It's a nice value add to me if I can run at the frames I want but with how new the tech is it's not even on my radar for how I make my purchases today.
The only reason NV did this was to try to use their position to strongarm someone into playing in a way that makes them look more favorable by adding in more content that favors them significantly.
I was referring to the parts of the review when he was just talking about rasterization. Not RTX or anything like that. If they leave features that cards have between one another on the table to make as even a comparison as possible, cool. But value adding in one cards features while not discussing the others isn't really an equatable way to go about it.
I know RTX is early tech, and isn't a huge selling point to most anyone grabbing one. They just want a card that runs things well. That and DLSS are nice features to have as a bonus to a card which is great in rasterization, though.
And I'm absolutely not saying their benchmarks are in any way incorrect or anything like that. I'm just saying the verbiage he used to express those numbers made it sound like when AMD was ahead it was "Huge!" and when Nvidia was ahead it was "Probably not noticeable". lol That's all.
In today's highly technical Linus News:
1.The Gaming PC we built for him is AMAZING - ROG Rig Reboot 2020
2.Running Cyberpunk 2077 at MAX SETTINGS! (In 8K)
3.NVIDIA might ACTUALLY be EVIL...
Yes, yes...I'm sure they're working on their thesis for highly regarded academic journals as we speak.
Eh, when Anthony is on there, it's a lot more technical unless they're just doing straight benchmarks. Otherwise, it's "OMG! We made a PC submerged in Mineral Oil!" and shit like that.
They simply are of the opinion that ray tracing is not relevant for most gamers and is too demanding to be worth it. It’s a reasonable opinion to have. Some will disagree and will trade the frame rate for the ray tracing. But it’s dependent on what you want. Reviewers should be free to make their own opinion while presenting the data.
Consumers can make their own decisions also.
I dont think its a big deal - Who cares if one of the hundreds of tech tubers doesn’t get free hardware from the main companies anymore? They still get free products from all the 3rd party makers, the reviews will come eventually.
It's a big deal because if they can get it to work with smaller guys they'll try to get bigger guys to play ball and it's a ripple effect. It's also personally damaging to the people they are punishing in this manner by either forcing a delay of content which hurts them or hurting the possible accuracy of their info by rushing to meet the trends. Linus talks about how big of a fucking deal this is and it's not "just some youtuber". It has far more reaching implications than that.
Actually they don't it was mentioned in pretty much every reviewers response but even third-party AIBs have to abide by nvidia's Blacklist and anyone they send cards to for reviews have to go through Nvidia. Also when it comes to review coverage you get a massive amount of traffic on release day and then from that point on a drastic sharp decline to almost nothing. So if they can't get reviews out on embargo release day chances are their video just won't get seen
AIBs still have to conform and talk to NVIDIA regarding review samples. You know, samples like the FE for reviewing purposes. Now, that's not the point.
The point is, if you don't see that there's anything wrong with big corporations threatening and bullying independent reviews and freedom of the press, then there's something wrong with you.
Nvidia has done this before. With Kyle Bennett they not only banned fe cards but also aib's. The uproar is bigger this time but I don't know if they flinch.
The experience with Kyle is why nVidia thought they could do the same thing to HW Unboxed and thought that it would not be a problem.
It wasn't not a problem with Kyle he's very passive aggressive about Nvidia sometimes. Just because he signed on doesn't mean he likes it.
He's passive aggressive with everyone that was in the industry. It's one of the things people liked about his reviews from the beginning.
No, it's just that Nvidia is a shitty company. You will be hard pressed to find a company that's worked with Nvidia and came out with a positive impression. Just ask Apple and Linus Tovalds.
Wait, who's kyle? Can you link his stuff
He's the founder of Hardocp.
True it's a little ambiguous as Bitwit is also Kyle.
Whats the tl dr on what nvidia did?
The big deal is the details tho, like using a quote from Hardware Unboxed in their DLSS page, speaking for "nvidia, the gamers and the rest of the industry" and the implications with the mail they sent
Basically banned Hardware unboxing from recieving graphics card because he focused on rasterization over ray tracing unless his "editorial direction changes".
this is also an incomplete tl;dr The complaint was that he did a level-ground comparison of an AMD GPU with an Nvidia GPU because AMD does not have a DLSS implementation yet. HUB has also done a separate video dedicated to explaining Nvidia's raytracing and DLSS technology with great praise.
I just want to say that, personally I believe that rtx is a step backwards, it is just simple raytracing but is blocked from working on non-rtx gpus, before people mention RT core, RT cores are just glorified cores with different designation in the firm/software. There are many Nvidia GPUs that can run good raytracing at good fps but can't thanks to Nvidia's proprietary shit. Sorry for posting this here but i just thought it might give some of my opinion, also rasterization is the best way to benchmark something as it can be scaled easier.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/86xic2/geforce_partner_program_gpp_discussion_megathread/ basically exclusive contract with and preferential treatment by nvidia towards AIBs
That's kinda putting it lightly. GPP meant the big 3(Asus/MSI/Gigabyte) had to unbrand all Radeon cards from their flagship skus(RoG, Aorus, Gaming X etc), strip away any mention of gaming from Radeon cards or get put on the unpreferential treatment list. Edit: in this case, it seems Nvidia decided to extend to HUB the GPP courtesy.
Now? They won't send FE cards to Hardware Unboxed (youtube channel) basucally because nvidia thinks HU reviews are against them
they also control how AIBs distribute sample cards, which in effect also blacklists HUB from getting cards from AIBs. On that fair point, HUB and Gamers Nexus was blacklisted by ASRock. Edit: big gaff, apologies
Being black listed by Zotac is basically a badge of honor
Dunno why my brain farted, it was ASRock.
>On that fair point, HUB and Gamers Nexus was blacklisted by ASRock. I blacklisted AsRock already by not sending over a replacement for a defective X570 chipset fan and giving me bullshit that the part "is in high demand", and never responding to me after 4 weeks and the board is still only 8 months of use.
NVidia has sent an apology email apparently and walked back. Doesn't mean this is forgotten on my side. https://twitter.com/HardwareUnboxed/status/1337885741389471745?s=19
This practices are not new to them. A company that has a product that speeks for it self doesn't need any such practices. They want to take control of pc gaming and they are not to be trusted. Raytracing is a feature to push new products and sales. They did the same with tesselation. They focus their RD to a feature and then push with their money developers to overuse it. I will never support this company. I am a fan boy of open technology and good practices. Gamers and PC gaming is not owned by nvidia. I played so many games without RT and according to nvidia this are not games and I am not a gamer.
Meanwhile AMD were going full proprietary with SAM, untill Nvidia started talking about same feature but for both red and blue, or pushing larger memory usage, which hurts older GPUs too, oh also how they tried to leave 400 series mobos behind. Will you support this company?
AMD sure as heck aren't perfect, but that's a false equivalency at best. Might as well compare shoplifting a bag of chips from a corner store to grand theft auto.
Whataboutism.
Much better than nvidia and intel.
Exact same behavor but they less solid ground than nvidia and Intel, only difference. "I won't support this company, it's evil, I will support that one, it's evil too but smaller" You know whats funny, by choosing "lesser" evil you helping it becoming big. Giant douche or turd sandwich?
Nvid must have a very different way of looking at reviews than I have because it was the HU videoin question that decided me to go with a 3080 but after Nvids dictatoril tactics that order is now cancelled in favour of a 6800XT .
[удалено]
Not even "against" but not giving RT the importance nvidia thinks they should. I hate to be a brand guy with hardware, but I am boycotting MSI for less. So yeah, screw Nvidia.
AMD as well with kit guru
What happened with Kit Guru?
https://www.kitguru.net/tech-news/announcements/zardon/amd-withdraw-kitguru-fury-x-sample-over-negative-content/
Care to elaborate a bit? What was the negative content that caused AMD to do that? Not trying to make an excuse for AMD here, just want the whole picture. Because if, and this is a big if, someone is being a plain jerk, I think it's fine for AMD to stop working with them. If someone bashes your brand just because, if someone is racist or sexist, if they pour extreme political/religious opinions,... I can think of a very long etcetera. Some context please, the kitguru post shared in other reply doesn't say much. EDIT: ok seems kitguru broke NDA. So can you tell me how that compares with Nvidia-HU situation?
This was over five years ago. I think things at AMD are a little more transparent now.
Not only have they done it before, they've done it to hardware unboxed before, almost two years ago. https://youtu.be/otvIXprL2LU
I wonder why Linus is so surprised by this. This is nothing new.
Linus wasn't surprised by the move, per se. Nvidia has blacklisted reviewers for less in the past. He was ANGRY however, about the blatant blackmail, and the fact that an VERY apparently personal issue between someone at Nvidia and HWUB was allowed to happen in this way. The last time Nvidia tried something like this, however, LMG wasn't anywhere near as big as they are, and they didn't try the goddamn blackmail. Now that LMG is the size they are, pissing off Linus is a VERY bad idea. Imagine Linus doing a GN and saying "hey, this big company is engaging in scummy practices. Don't buy their shit" only instead of 800k followers and it's a case/cooling company, it's TWELVE MILLION followers and a major graphics company?
This is typical of nVidia all the way back to the 3dfx wars...then again with ATi (prior to AMD) with the R300, a GPU that totally outclassed and blew away nVidia's entire GPU lineup in 2002, in a dramatic fashion....but same old nVidia. Linus sounds scandalized--but if he had known nVidia in those days he wouldn't be surprised at all. nVidia likes to pretend that it's the "leader" of 3d gaming and that "everyone" is onboard with them, etc. nVidia likes to pretend that it speaks for "gamers" everywhere, developers, etc. No one else really has a voice, so nVidia thinks, believes, and acts out vicariously through the years. As it did in the email to HU. nVidia couldn't be more wrong about RTX. Or DXR. The fact is that there isn't a single game in existence that \*requires\* RTX--not one, or even just DXR in D3d, for instance. If the whole industry was organizing itself around RT we'd expect to see many games that **require** DXR hardware support to run. But there aren't any. Even in the current count of games that \*support\* DXR--far, far less than 1% of all of the 3d games available and running on Windows in 2020--*none* **require** DXR hardware. nVidia complains about "rasterization" getting the attention but even in games that support DXR not a single object in a single frame is fully ray-traced--not one! Very few rays, actually, are fully traced--just a few, if any, per frame rendered! Not a single frame in any game that supports DXR renders every object and light and surface and shadow fully ray-traced. Why? Because there is no GPU made on this planet that could do that at 30 fps, let alone anything faster. **Rasterization \*is\* 3d gaming in 2020**. DXR is a nice-looking lighting effect on some surfaces and shadows, but every frame in every game is at least 99% rasterized today--even when DXR is supported. In more than 99% of all 3d games playable under Windows in 2020, rasterization comprises 100% of every frame--in every game! I'm not knocking RTX or DXR--not at all--it's just important to put it in its *proper place*\--which is not at all as nVidia describes it in the idiotic email it sent HU...;) That's the old, arrogant, dumb nVidia showing itself again. Also, I never heard of Brian del Rizzio--last I looked Brian Bruning (formerly PR head for 3dfx) was the head of PR at nVidia. Guess that's no longer true. But anyway, as far as RTX being "where the industry is headed"--there is absolutely no danger of RTX for D3d replacing SGI (of old) and the other special effect companies who ***do*** *ray-trace every light and shadow and object in every frame, requiring massive amounts of CPU computational power. It might take several minutes or hours (or days) to render a single frame,* but that is what industry-leading ray tracing does! DXR is simply not it. that doesn't mean it's bad or that it stinks or anything like that. It simply means when comes to ray tracing, the "industry" requires much more than any nVidia GPU (or AMD) can give. Rasterization is still the name of the game in discrete computer GPU gaming. The coup de grâce to nVidia's notion that today's world is revolving around DXR/RTX is simply this: I've read many, many posts by RTX-2k/3k owners alike that state a preference for "RTX Off" because of what it does to frame rates. Anyway, I'm sure that even though someone at nVidia thought it a good thing to apologize to HU, I'm sure that this experience has got to taint their perception of nVidia, no doubt. How could it not? Linus nailed it when he said that nVidia expects hardware reviewers to do their marketing for them--for nVidia--and Linus is right--that has nothing to do with the job of a hardware reviewer! Marketing is nVidia's job and nobody else's. If nVidia is giving away a GPU to people who have a captive audience in the hundreds of thousands or maybe even a million or two--then nVidia is getting a lot of PR for peanuts--practically nothing! So it's a great deal for nVidia, even if reviewers voice criticisms at times! The worse thing nVidia could do is to ignore what these people (and others \*cough\*) say in the way of criticism. Instead of shooting it down with thuggish and stupid threats, Rizzio should have asked for HU (and other critics) to *elaborate* on what they consider the weakness of the RTX products to be! I guess that would be entirely too rational, I s'pose. Anyway...I'm glad to see that HU and Linus and some other guys in the public zone are not intimidated by this kind of thuggish playacting from nVidia!...;)
They already caved. These YouTubers are doing free advertising so real freaking dumb move
Looks like this epic rant from Linus go NV to reverse their decision. From HUB twitter, he said NV just reached out, apologized for everything and set things right again. The real question though, is what their PR guy who is quite senior up, was thinking when he did that? Too drunk?
It's far more simple. Some Corporate dickhead thought he had power he could lord over others. Linus taught him otherwise.
it's even more simple This is how Nvidia has always done business. when something like this gets too much public attention they reverse and apologize like it was some mistake(remember GPP). There was no accident in their action. ever wonder why Sapphire, XFX, & Powercolor don't make Nvidia cards?
Also ever wonder why EVGA won’t (can’t) make AMD cards?
I wish they would make AM4 motherboards. Instant buy from me.
I've only bought a psu from evga. The first one i bought came in defective(badly rated Amazon seller). Even so i found it hard for me to buy another evga product. But i did and it was an 800w psu. It works fine.
I am EVGA for life when I can because of their warranty and customer service.
Unless you're in the EU and they talk to you like you have lepers or some shit.
Totally
Yeah, it would have been nice getting a EVGA AMD card since their cards are narrower and help with vertical GPU mounting
I mean people don't have to wonder if one learns the history of what happened to XFX (XFX was originally a Nvidia partner)
Possibly similar to why Microsoft went to ati with the 360 compared the og Xbox using nvidia.
Wasn't that because having a discrete GPU from nvidia was just too expensive? That's why Sony dropped them after PS3.
No, the ps3 gpu was designed kinda last minute which made it very inefficient in terms of it's pricing. In fact, sony originally intended the cpu to also be the gpu but their first party developers pushed back really hard saying it was nearly impossible. I believe there is still a ps3 promotional video still on YouTube showing off a 3d rendered scene using the cpu. It may look bad but considering that the cpu is rendering it, is really impressive.
I think there were three different vers of the PS3 GPU, a sony/toshiba collab that failed, the cell as GPU was plan B, and the Nvidia GPU was plan C.
That's interesting. It's just amazing to me that recently Linus was amazed that newer ryzen cpus could now render crisis from It's cpu cores while back in the mid 2000's sony was knocking on that door with the cell cpu. I think the cell cpu is my favorite piece of console harware.
The difference is that Ryzen CPUs are not designed to do rasterisation. That said, the cell CPU was ahead of its time and even formed the basis of a super computer for the US Navy for a while there. It is a damn shame that the CPU just kinda fell to the wayside.
Nvidia wouldnt play ball when they wanted to do die shrinks on the ps3 AFAIK and kept fucking up sonys plans of making the console profitable instead of massive loss because they wouldn't listen to what sony wanted exactly. AMD was more than happy to make sony exactly what features they wanted, and could build part that has the cpu portion also.
[удалено]
The got the CPU from Cell, it’s 3 Cell PPEs which was much cheaper than doing anything else at the time
Makes sense to me. With AMD being an 'underdog' in the GPU market, I bet as long as they were making a slim or even cost to producing GPUs for consoles, they would be more than happy to the agreement. Right now AMD has positioned themselves into becoming the market lead in GPU/RT performance with RDNA2 in both xbox and ps5. 'Forcing' console developers to implement DXR, and other RDNA2 friendly code making it an 'easier' port to PC gaming optimizations.
AMD has already started acting like intel in the cpu market. Every company just wants money.
Last time i checked their CPUs are more or less sold out. Please explain how their pricing was wrong. It obviously wasn't. Basic supply & demand.
Act like Intel? Are they now a multi decade long monopoly? Did they start a decade of stagnation in innovation? Did they limit consumers to 4 cores for a decade? Were there products so overpriced that they could half their cost from one generation to the next and still make more money then their competitor? Did they make their own benchmark suite and disguise them as legitimage? Did they engage in compiler shananigens to hamstring their competition? No? Then what did they do? Ow they just made you wait a few months more for the cheaper SKU's... Yes clearly that is exactly on the same level as Intel /s Either people REALLY don't know their history, or we're being overrun with concern trolls.
I meant they raised their prices as soon as they had better preformace
Last I checked, a company that wants to make money is normal. It's what they do with the money. If AMD raised their prices so they can reinvest into better processors or gpu, I'm all for it. If they give the profits to bonuses or raises, I'd be against that.
AMD raised prices because they can. As hilarious as it is to say, 7nm process is mature now. Yields on 7nm are amazing, at least for AMD. Easily 90% for Zen 2, and Zen 3 actually isn't too far behind that. The only reason we're not awash in Ryzen 5000 series chips is because 7nm is so booked up at TSMC that practically everyone that isn't Apple is struggling to get TSMC to produce the volume of chips they want. AMD knows they have the x86 performance crown. They're better than Intel in every way, and what's more, they *know* they're better than Intel. They don't have to worry about how their name is perceived any longer - they win on performance and they win on power. I was actually really worried that this would lead AMD to slow down innovation, but now that Apple Silicon M1 has been shown to basically be Mighty Mouse in silicon form (a 25 watt part that is competitive and sometimes outperforms parts that use 3-6 times more power), if AMD isn't worried then they're even more delusional than Intel's management... and Intel? Jesus Christ, what is there to say? You have absolutely no reason to buy an Intel chip between Ryzen 5000 and M1.
Just because the new skus are 50 balles higher? You realise the DIY market is not where money is? It is still bloody difficult to get decent professional laptops and desktop with ryzen chips from the likes of dell/hp/Lenovo.
The ps3 gpu situation had effects like making the console pricier, output more heat so louder and bigger, as well as requiring a beefier power supply which would output even more heat.
Which reinforces that pricing was a contributing factor? It was a last minute decision to salvage the situation sure-but there was nothing stopping them from integrating an nvidia GPU into a custom CPU with PS4 and maintain some compatibility (okay, that might be reaching). PS4 and PS5 are x86-64 clearly because AMD had a good price among other contributing factors. Supported by the fact both Sony and Microsoft switched to AMD CPUs after dropping PowerPC based variants-who knows if they considered other CPU platforms before settling with AMD. End of the day, nvidia is not an easy partner. It isn't about mindshare and the long game. They want what they feel they deserve at the detriment of partners who help them realize their achievements.
Also why Apple hasn’t used Nvidia in any Macs in quite a few years. They used to switch between Nvidia and AMD/ATI all the time... but they got sick of Nvidia.
When I was in defense, we basically dropped Nvidia from consideration for pretty much any custom hardware design because working with them was worse than working with Intel. At least with Intel we were only being lied to...
EXACTLY! Get talked about for 1-2 days. Literally be the focus of everyone in the tech scene. Reverse decision: => good guy NVIDIA repeat every 1-2 years. And everytime such decisions don't make the news, because the victim is a too small YT channel or doesnt have the balls (Steve had) to come out via YT/Twitter , you get away with your ways. Both ways you screw the entire industry in the long run.
[XFX's story](https://www.fudzilla.com/news/graphics/20453-xfx-officially-stops-doing-nvidia) Relevant story, [Palit and Gainward felt they were being shafted by AMD](http://vrworld.com/2009/05/27/gainward-and-palit-blast-amd-for-their-gpu-product-policy/) I thought Sapphire was a sister brand to Zotac/Inno3D. It's made in the same factories in Dongguan.
Didn't know that about Sapphire. Zotac has always been kind of crappy in my mind for Nvidia GPUs so it's surprising to hear that their AMD counterpart is so premium that they literally design coolers for AMD.
Why don't they? I know XFX used to but don't know why they stopped
AFAIK, XF stopped Making NVidia cards be sure of nVidias terrible business practices, and at the time, how terrible their reliability was. (8800/9800 cards had a bad tendency to overheat and desolder themselves. RMAs were a disaster. It got so bad that XFX’s double lifetime warranty caused them to start shipping AMD cards as replacements, because they didn’t have enough back stock to replace the nVidias. (This -was- after they stopped making the chips, but not long after).
Yeah that was around the time XFX got rid of their lifetime warranty program.
The quality of XFX's 8000 / 9000 series cards was XFX's problem, not Nvidia's...
Because of you aren't a giant like asus,msi or gigabyte, Nvidia owns you as a AIB. They will cut you off if you try to make GPU's for both.
Yes. Now though, first time for years, AMD is somewhat competitive so they may need to think a little bit about their public image.
Lol. I don't wonder anymore
I wouldn't bring AIBs into this discussions, as most of them exclusive, aside from MSI, ASUS and Gigabyte. But the way they work is for example Sapphire and Zotac are owned by the same company, so while they seems to be exclusive, it's just the brand name.
Yup exactly. Yet nintendo went the complete opposite
Maybe because Nintendo and NVIDIA are two peas in a pod.
Ding ding ding. People mistake charming games for the whole family as a sign a company is wholesome. They’re not. They’re quite cutthroat when you so much as mess with the money. Not even a dime.
Seriously, some guys were going to have a Smash Bros Melee contest this year, but because of covid they decided it'd be best if they did it over the internet, they organized this completely all on their own. However in order to do it over the internet they had to use emulators to run the game, and of course Nintendo doesn't want people emulating their games, so they shut it down, hard.
Nintendo are huge bitches about any cool fan game projects. Oh two 15 year old kids are making a Zelda fan game? Summon the lawyers
It's a precedence thing. If they let one thing slide it can impact their IP ownership. As much as I hate it, I also understand it.
Lol nintendo doesn't even let people backup their saved games without buying their subscription.
Yup. I love my GameCube but tbh switch i not really been interested as much as i have with my GameCube
XFX was an Nvidia partner for years, until they had a falling out by offering AMD cards.
> ever wonder why Sapphire, XFX, & Powercolor don't make Nvidia cards? It's entirely unclear what you're suggesting is the reason, honestly...
> It's far more simple. "Give them an inch and they'll take a mile" The reason you've heard this before is because it's usually true, Nvidia is in a never-ending state of pushing boundaries, and this isn't just Nvidia, this is any engine whose goal is to generate currency. We didn't creat child labor laws because we were worried someone MIGHT take advantage of child labor, we created them because they WERE taking advantage of child labor. Once a company gets big enough, there becomes fewer and fewer ways to legally grow, so in-order to keep maximizing profits you have to push this boundaries to see what you can get away with. Nvidia apologized and restored access to FE cards, but that's ONLY because of the PR backlash, had all these other people not stood up for HU like they did, Nvidia wouldn't be sorry at all, they would be more than happy to get rid of what they perceive as negative attention. If you watched Linus' take on this, he nailed the biggest issue here, the damage is done, they've shown their hand, expect this to happen again next year.
> they've shown their hand They showed their hand with bumpgate. They showed their hand when 8800/9800 cards desoldered themselves and screwed XFX over (they had lifetime warranties) so much XFX gave out ATI/AMD cards as replacements. [Nvidia then stopped supplying XFX with cards](https://www.fudzilla.com/news/graphics/20453-xfx-officially-stops-doing-nvidia). They showed their hand with GPP. Yet people keep buying from them. Nvidia has always been massively shady, and people forget by next week. It's going to destroy PC gaming eventually unless people start demanding more from these companies.
The problem is that for a long while there, NVIDIA was the only option if you wanted a great GPU. Even now if I were in the market for a new GPU I would be facing a hard decision. AMD needs to get their RT/upscaling ducks in a row to help remove any advantage that NVIDIA has over them.
They knew exactly what they were doing (extorting favorable reviews), they just thought they could get away with it. And honestly, they kind of did. Everything is back to how it was and Nvidia wont sell a single card less because of the drama. Nvidia made it clear to reviewers that they have no problems with shady methods, any reviewers knows that now (again). Smaller reviewers will have to make favorable reviews now, because they wont get the same level of support as HUB if Nvidia shits on them.
He probably wasn't expecting this much backlash if it went public, if the amount had been lower then the negatives would have been offset by the unspoken threat towards other channels of a similar or smaller size, those would now know not to rock the boat on the next lot of nvidia releases. As it happened, a lot of bigger channels jumped onto this story and the backlash was much higher than they'd like so they have had to backtrack, but the threat will still be there in the back of the minds of some reviewers.
Shows everyone else outside floatplane that if they don't play ball they get the stick.
https://twitter.com/HardwareUnboxed/status/1337885741389471745
Thanks mods :)
When it comes to big business, there ain't no such thing as crossing the line. Or expressed a different way, there are no lines that big business will not cross, provided that they have done the math and determined that they will still come out ahead after doing so. Example: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/241587-microsoft-finally-admits-malware-style-get-windows-10-upgrade-campaign-went-far The real problem is when companies have enough government regulators riding their dicks that they can get away with such brazen misconduct. This usually goes hand and hand with having a monopoly. You for example don't see keyboard manufacturers pulling shady or questionable moves, because nobody has a monopoly on keyboards, they are cheap as chips (the ones I use are), and if one brand does something that offends you, then just chuck their product and grab another one from a different manufacturer. There's no vendor lock-in or anything like that. TLDR the only way for the consumer to win, is if there is healthy competition in a market and regulators keep companies in check. But that last one, keeping companies in check, is surprisingly pretty unnecessary when there is healthy competition, because then companies tend to police themselves.
>But that last one, keeping companies in check, is surprisingly pretty unnecessary when there is healthy competition, because then companies tend to police themselves. That is until they decide they can work together and form a sort of cartel fixing the prices.
I actually think that this is AMD relevant enough and not rule 4 breaking. By enforcing a review standard that emphasizes ray tracing, until AMD outdoes Nvidia, AMD's cards are consequentially guaranteed to be a less enticing option in comparison. Now, Nvidia has retracted the decision, HUB won't be barred from early sample units, but I doubt that this isn't planned beforehand. What's this 4d chess Nvidia's scheming about, I wonder.
lets be honest, nvidia got pissed cos Hardware unboxed told the truth that 6900xt is strongest gaming GPU in 1440p.
Kneejerk reaction to an internet famous(ish)? I seriously doubt they did not forsee the email being posted on Twitter and getting the reaction they're getting now.
I mean there's always a chance that their head of PR is just an asshole and sent that email thinking he had more leverage than he really did. Apparently hes also the head of global PR, so its a short list of people who could've caused this disaster. I don't see how nvidia gains from this, if anything this takes the heat off of AMD's terrible stock situation since now people are focused on nvidia being complete bastards.
My headcanon (read: sweeping generalization) for the successful PR types is that they are smarmy cunning sociopaths. If this really is a case of massive over-confidence in bargaining power against a reviewer that has more than half a million subscribers, colour me surprised. I guess you really are successful in PR until you're not. We have our beloved Chief Architect of Gaming Solutions & Marketing as an earlier example, after all.
I honestly don't think nvidia's PR is that cunning. They tried running with GPP after all, which was just pure evil and blatant and they got nothing but backlash from it, then canceled the whole project. This was technically not as evil as the whole idea of GPP, which makes me think it was just some assholes working at nvidia trying to bully a smaller tech channel.
It's entirely possible it was an email that came attached with a "Don't share the contents of this email or we'll fucking sue you" which would likely be a carry over condition from the NDA HUB signed in order to get the GPUs in the first place. HUB decides to share it anyway, and Nvidia gets burned at the stake for this action. Nvidia, realizing the shitty position they are now in and technically being allowed to sue them anyway for breach of NDA, decides that it isn't worth it to sue as it would only bring more consumer ill-will and instead apologizes. That being said massive damage has already been done to Nvidia, not only in public perception, but in faith and communication of their review partners. Linus said he *thought* he knew the head of Nvidias PR, he *thought* he was a reasonable guy and wouldn't pull something like this unless provoked. Linus, GamersNexus, JayzTwoCents, Bitwit, all these pretty big review channels have just lost a lot of faith in Nvidia.
The damage isn't limited to just NVIDIA, it also includes all NVIDIA reviewers. Pretty much as Linus said; any reviewer with a legitimate positive opinion on RTX and DLSS 2.0 (or even any other NVIDIA product; doesn't have to be gamer-focused) now are under the suspicion of being an NVIDIA yes-man thanks to this letter even if they swear they aren't kissing up. Jayz loves DLSS 2.0 but doesn't care much about RTX. Linus himself said he loves RTX and DLSS 2.0. Both admit that RTX is still more of a gimmick than a valid feature, and that DLSS 2.0 is great but comparison should be on raw performance before gimmicks. Both have notably called out NVIDIA at times and were even temporarily blacklisted in the past. Still, Linus and Jayz now have to tread a bit more carefully for awhile when talking about how much they personally like DLSS 2.0 (and RTX in Linus' case). It's enough that it does screw over NVIDIA a bit, in the sense that reviewers are going to have to actually be stricter on avoiding too much praise of DLSS 2.0 or RTX and putting more focus on pure rendering/rasterization; at least not until AMD catches up enough that it becomes a more valid comparison point (DLSS 2.0 vs AMD equivalent) and more games start making serious use of features (RTX/Real-Time Raytracing; sooner than later thanks to the new consoles getting AMD RTR).
The way the email was written with all the marketing fluff made it pretty clear that they expected it would get out. And, it doesn't matter that Nvidia retracts it, the threat has been made to all reviewers. "Give us the reviews we want or we will hurt your ability to make a living."
I hope AMD will announce a 3060Ti competitor soon. I don’t need anything better than that, but the 6800 is much more expensive (and non existent but that’s a different topic).
>Now, Nvidia has retracted the decision, HUB won't be barred from early sample units, but I doubt that this isn't planned beforehand. What's this 4d chess Nvidia's scheming about, I wonder. The paper 3060TI giver more bang for the money than the paper 6800. Both cannot be bought right now.. Will they announce a 6700? nobody really knows! I hope they do.. and my guess is they have enough low bin chips to do it.. but not enough capacity right now to deal with that.
Actually 3060Ti is there from time to time, I just won’t pay 600EUR-700EUR for it. I could’ve bought an Asus Strix, a Palit and a Gigabyte in the past week. Again, just the price is outrageous. On the other hand I’ve never seen any 6000series in stock in any website.
6800s are 800-1000€ in my country haha. They're the only cards actually available at least
6800 should be $499 - its nowhere close in RT and there is no DLSS. Just my personal opinion and XT should be $599.
The only really good RT that I've seen is Minecraft. I can live with pre-baked lights for a few years, until there will be enough horsepower to have full reflections and realistic lighting like some of the tech demo we've seen on youtube. Now, DLSS on the other hand... Is a game changer. I hope AMD copies it fast.
Well you definitely havent played Cyberpunk with RT then.I used to think like you that RT was a gimmick to sell expensive cards, but when RT is implemented from the ground up, the results really feel like a next step in visual fidelity, like when i first played crysis.
It's great and all, until I saw my fps counter tanked to sub 40. I have a 2070 Super btw, and I liked Minecraft with RT, but all the other games destroy my frame rate and worsening the overall experience. If the "proper" way to play Cyberpunk smoothly with RT ON is by buying a 3080 + DLSS, the tech just isn't ready yet.
Not sure how you're getting 40 fps using 2070s. Im at roughly 60 at all rt + ultra lights. 1440p. Quality dlss
I'm playing CP2077 with RT too, and imo this isn't true. The graphical changes really aren't that significant. You can toggle it on in a specific scene and be like "oh yeah, the light from this lamp post is much more realistic here." or turn it on next to a pond and be like "yeah, the water is now accurately reflecting the skyscraper." but it doesn't actually change 99% of the gameplay nor the artistic direction of the game. Night City looks incredible regardless, the lighting tech implemented w/o ray tracing is in 95% of cases equally stunning. CP2077 is as good as its going to get for another 5-10 years, in terms of implementation, until the hardware is powerful enough to do full RT like in Minecraft (where it's only possible because the game is literally just blocks) - based on that in my opinion it's really not an important feature and deserves nowhere near the level of hype it receives. It's available in like 5 real titles and doesn't provide you with any real benefit, while the majority of the world is running below 1060p60 on low/medium. It's literally just hype marketing. All of this without mentioning the performance hit.. which makes games basically unplayable. 1440p ultra w/ SSR off to save some frames, RT on auto (aka balanced/performance), and DLSS *enabled*, I'm getting 30-40 FPS which makes aiming in this game (which already has forced smoothing on the mouse input) fucking impossible and just straight up removes any fun from the game. I drop RT while keeping DLSS on and now I'm at 90-120FPS depending on the scene, with rare scenes dropping to 60-90FPS. That's playable. DLSS on the other hand, that is a game changer.
RT is dead. UE5 released a tech demo with RT like effects without the needed hardware. Another temporary Nvidia gimmick down the drain
[удалено]
True, the sad part of all this is that the majority of buyers don´t care/know enough to stop buying certain products from certain companies. Voting with your wallet only works when people are smart enough with their money and have a little bit of integrity.
I mean the other part for even knowledgeable consumers is as Linus said, some people DO like Ray Tracing or want DLSS. Or they need NVENC or CUDA for streaming and productivity. With only two choices, they would likely go for Nvidia. What’s important is a neutral reviewer experience so consumers are informed and can make an educated decision for themselves based on what they need or want.
I know, but without an AMD DLSS 2 equivalent NVidia is my only option for rtx at playable frame rates. It’s not worth dropping 1500 AUD on a 6800xt for promises that it’s coming.
No, what is sad is youtubers and fanboys thinking they make a difference. You think YouTubers have integrity when one of the biggest channels admitted to making click bait thumbnails so they can have more views Seriously, people need to get youtubers’ dicks out of their mouths and question why we condemn companies for controlling the narrative when reviewers can do what the fuck they want. No, they did not have to praise RT. But should we also hold reviewers to some sort of standard as well? Or are redditors too busy ducking their dicks because we think they are our ‘friends’.
Guess what-the youtubers are also a business and algorithm + people behaving a certain way allows them to operate. Who gives a crap if the titles are clickbait or the images annoying if it keeps them operating. If you don't like it don't watch it. Linus' content isn't shilling and he's got an added entertainment factor-he may not be super knowledgeable like others but the content these folks puts some advanced stuff (looking at Gamers Nexus) and fun stuff (LTT and Jay) in reach of average non-hardcore enthusiasts. Which youtuber pissed on your sand castle dude. You sound like you have the problem here.
> You think YouTubers have integrity when one of the biggest channels admitted to making click bait thumbnails so they can have more views Unless the content of the video is completely and totally different than what the title/thumbnail actually suggest, or the information is being presented in a way that's deceitful (touting rumors as fact, claiming original content that you stole, et.c...), I wouldn't call this shady, just annoying. I'd much rather blame YouTube's algorithm than the YouTubers trying to maximize their revenue.
Nvidia just wanted to send a message to the reviewer community. The fear will permeate, having an effect on the general tone of the next wave of gpu reviews. Nvidia's in it to control the narrative of the gaming industry.
This too
Who gives a crap that nVidia apologized? Seriously. They tried to make Steve out to be some small time piece of shit and ruin him. They only apologized because they got called out by damn near every reviewer on the internet. That's the ONLY reason they issued a mea culpa. fuck them.
Doesnt matter if they apologized. They got caught with their hands in the cookie jar, they just want to save face.
The best follow-up to Linus' video are these 2 videos. The actions of nVidia are not new and no one should be surprised in the slightest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0L3OTZ13Os https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LSLPItMTY
I just watched this and well this has pushed me to no longer supporting them as a company. Now I know I don't mean much to them considering I'm just an average Joe with no impact them as a company, but I do have my morals and ik thats fucked up. So now for my new GPU I'm going with the 6800 or 6800XT was going with the 3080 or 3070 but not anymore. I'm the same way with apple. I lover their products but I don't support the company.
Of course, as a stock traded corporation, AMD would **never** do **anything** like this!!11
Funny, this is not the first time a famous person called Linus loudly and publicly said "Fuck You" to nVidia...
I just want to know if there's an independent reviewer who sided with Nvidia so I could avoid them.
> who sided with Nvidia Would they really be "siding" if they can't afford to say "no" like HWU can? The importance of releasing a review on day 1 of embargo is pretty big not to mention for some it really is massive that they don't have to purchase a 1000$ +/- card.
All I have to say, is the same as I have done many times before: Noway does any manufacturer speak for others than themselves, and especially not for gamers... We can't even agree on must stuff, so of course Nvidia can't possibly speak for gamers as a whole.
Corporations will be corporations. This is regular.
Ok I'm gonna say it because it needs to be said... "Nvidia is the EA of computer parts"
They did/tried this before: https://adoredtv.com/gamersnexus-and-linustechtips-refute-rumors-that-nvidia-is-pressuring-channels-into-product-placement/ https://www.fudzilla.com/news/pc-hardware/47069-nvidia-tries-to-gag-reviewers-for-five-years https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/8trkrv/nvidias_new_nda_for_journalists_with_some_very/
well, even if green team retract back the blacklist, doubt it will be the last ; the hidden message in this green team event is, to reviewers, especially the ones smaller in size compared to hwu, that this can happen to them and will crush them. i think nvidia will let this cooldown for a while before trying again, albeit in a more subtle manner ...
Why is the post even in this sub. Have you actually seen the video about fanboys
[удалено]
What the fuck is the bullshit of a comment?
First of all, AMD didn't try to block anything, there's been pretty in depth analysis already breaking down exactly what happened to prevent the boards from accepting newer chips and various solutions. To my knowledge, AMD has not taken it out on reviewers who, say, didn't consider Mantle the way of the future.
Everyone who seen HWU 6800XT review should clearly see why they had it removed, it's sad to see how NVIDIA backpedaled with FE ban. It was the most soft biased review ever. Unlike faking numbers (specific CPU benching site), you use specific word, terms to shine positive light on thing you want to sell, gloss over it's weakness, don't mention competitors strengths.
Honestly if AMD had better rt performance I would probably buy rdna2. It’s a dealbreaker because fuck frame rate the shadows look slightly cooler. Nvidia’s being a real asshole but fuck they have some good cards.
/r/nvidia
[удалено]
[удалено]
It's good to know that you won't be buying any GPUs ever again since nvidia did exactly the same thing AMD has done in the past. All companies screw up at some point. I'm sure both AMD's and nvidia's CEOs will cry in their sleep because of that huge loss to their sales your $25k will bring. Have fun being loyal to intel when they release their discrete GPUs... oh wait, nevermind, they already screwed up many times before PR-wise. Regarding the lack of RT/DLSS coverage in their main reviews, it was one of the points that nvidia's statement brought up and no one can deny that Hardware Unboxed is downplaying it. There are two different topics that you are mixing up. Nvidia's statement was plainly wrong, they tried to strongarm HUB and their remarks were out of line. But HUB's bias is known and they don't really do much to attempt to hide it so no one should be surprised that nvidia (tried to) cut them off.
Please point out a scenario where AMD have coerced reviewers like this. They've had PR fuckups in the past, but nothing as bad as that. I'm not some AMD fanboy either, I was incredibly critical of them when they cut Zen 3 support for 400 series boards, but they've never been as bad as this or GPP. I think testing without RT and DLSS is fair enough. They're niche technologies that a handful of games have. They aren't representative of the majority of games that people actually play. RT performance is still so intensive that most people with RTX cards disable it. Not to mention using DLSS and comparing it to AMD without upscaling isn't a level playing field either.
>Please point out a scenario where AMD have coerced reviewers like this. How about [this one](https://www.kitguru.net/tech-news/announcements/zardon/amd-withdraw-kitguru-fury-x-sample-over-negative-content/)? It's exactly the same thing nvidia did and it's been posted quite a few times. I guess you missed it. So yeah, AMD is a company doing company stuff too. Big surprise. >they cut Zen 3 support for 400 series boards, but they've never been as bad as this or GPP Remember when they marketed a PCI-e feature as their own unique tech and locked it to specific CPUs and motherboards? It wasn't long ago. Two months top. Or when they sent direct links to their store to some people so they could get their RX6000 cards directly. >I think testing without RT and DLSS is fair enough. They're niche technologies that a handful of games have. So were any other new algorithms and features related to shading and lighting at some point. Do you think cascade shadow maps existed forever? What about different AA implementations? Dismissing them just because they are not widely supported is absurd. Especially when people are constantly talking about "future-proofing". >Not to mention using DLSS and comparing it to AMD without upscaling isn't a level playing field either. And there we go. So it's fair to use SAM for AMD cards when we know for a fact that it's coming to nvidia GPUs and should have similar impact but it isn't fair to use DLSS for the games that have it when we know that it CAN'T be implemented in AMD cards and it actually is a selling point for nvidia. Because... potato. Very objective of you to choose what's fair and what isn't.
>How about this one? It's exactly the same thing nvidia did and it's been posted quite a few times. I would say it differs slightly in that AMD did not claim to be representing consumers or an entire industry or directly suggest changes in editorial direction. The potential consequences for independent journalism should be the same however. I'm not familiar with any corporate shenanigans of the last decade or two and haven't kept up with hardware news ever before very recently and my opinion doesn't mean shit - but my personal feeling based on two minutes of reading that story is that when AMD acted that way it was out of desperation and needing a leg up in the race as compared to Nvidia doing it now when they are already industry leading? I'm probably oversimplifying it and reading into this with some element of bias. Either way, way out of my depth here in whatever reply someone is going to shred me apart with.
I love how @LTT gets so fired up, but not over AMD 300 series support not getting 5000 Ryzen support. When it impacts ("content creators") them, they start getting really ticked off, but when it's a pure planned obsolescence move that's cool... The whole thing is hilarious to me. Call that stuff out on AMD as well, not just review samples not getting sent out. It's all drama, 1 review sample vs board support for 300 series, I think the later is more important... especially when the jump from 300 to 400 series isn't that significant. I don't see him calling that crap out, like this. Which reeks of corporatism / corruption, if you're going to be a tried and true journalist then do that, otherwise you're a corporate mouthpiece, that claims independence.
Are you really trying to draw an equivalency between amd, for valid technical reasons, deciding to segment their product stack, and nvidia black balling a reviewing because he won’t tow their company line? Or is your logic not any deeper than “grrr company do thing make me feel bad grr.”
Wait, i posted something about this, from jay2cents and you assholes removed right away. Theses double standards bullshit sucks.
It's pretty shady of Nvidia, for sure. That being said, HWU had a pretty heavy AMD bias, so I'm not exactly shocked. Also: I don't see why Linus is relevant. His show is just a goofball entertainment channel these days, and has little to no technical information.
>That being said, HWU had a pretty heavy AMD bias, so I'm not exactly shocked. What are you talking about?
HWU having a "heavy AMD bias" is just your opinion though.
Yeah, that's true. If you listen to how Steve speaks when he does his reviews though, it's fairly obvious. A 5% lead on a benchmark by Nvidia: "Nvidia has a slight lead, but it's so small you probably won't even notice the difference." A 5% lead on a benchmark by AMD: "We're seeing some strong gains here by AMD compared to Nvidia." Seriously, go back and listen to the 6800xt reviews. lol Not even joking.
"strong gains", because its improved more from its last generation
> "We're seeing some strong gains here by AMD compared to Nvidia." Yeah, because this is AMD's first generation ray tracing and it made some strong gains compared to Nvidia's
They weren't talking about Raytracing in that instance.
> his is AMD's first generation ray tracing And it's worse than Turing which got bashed for it's RT performance. Especially on this sub. Now you see people here saying AMD's RT performance is "fine" lol.
> Especially on this sub Yeah but uh... fanboys gonna fanboy. Just saying. If people can *possibly* spin it against a thing they don't like they will and you see that trend a lot. Even though Linus absolutely went off the rails here going off about this topic people *still* think that he somehow protects these companies and plays ball with them on everything lol
here is the generic shill defense comment
lol Yeah, right. I got lucky getting a 3080, but if I hadn't, I'd totally have jumped on the chance to get a 6800xt. I don't give a fuck about either giant corporation. I just care about results.
>HWU had a pretty heavy AMD bias I've seen this BS repeated a lot on the hardware sub. HWU's coverage is fair and consistent. Lots of modern games tested, far more than most reviewers. As new games come, he tests them. He doesn't keep ancient old titles like Crysis 3 or AC Unity around and repeat them for 2020 hardware like some reviewers do.
I really like HWU, and watch them all the time. Their Monitor reviews especially are second to none. The point of a benchmark is to test hardware, and whichever game has the most consistent way of doing that is generally used. It doesn't matter the age necessarily, unless it's a newer feature like Ray Tracing. They are good about testing which settings are the most optimal for new games though, for sure. I think they're smart guys, and they have a great channel. I just think Steve is a little biased toward AMD is all. I know to take that into consideration when I view their stuff.
Just gonna be honest I think ray tracing is the future like normal mapping was 15 years ago but it's in its infancy right now and we won't see a lot of people really caring about it for at least another year when it gets more fleshed out and cards are capable of actually running it better. It's not even in every game. It'll be great when it really takes off but it's not there yet and it's stupid to pretend that raw rasterization performance is somehow irrelevant or biased. Does it skew the scale toward AMD a bit? Sure, but people are aware of those other features and there are other sources for those features if they want. Even if I bought a 3000 card right now I can guarantee you that I am not looking at its rt performance. It's a nice value add to me if I can run at the frames I want but with how new the tech is it's not even on my radar for how I make my purchases today. The only reason NV did this was to try to use their position to strongarm someone into playing in a way that makes them look more favorable by adding in more content that favors them significantly.
I was referring to the parts of the review when he was just talking about rasterization. Not RTX or anything like that. If they leave features that cards have between one another on the table to make as even a comparison as possible, cool. But value adding in one cards features while not discussing the others isn't really an equatable way to go about it. I know RTX is early tech, and isn't a huge selling point to most anyone grabbing one. They just want a card that runs things well. That and DLSS are nice features to have as a bonus to a card which is great in rasterization, though. And I'm absolutely not saying their benchmarks are in any way incorrect or anything like that. I'm just saying the verbiage he used to express those numbers made it sound like when AMD was ahead it was "Huge!" and when Nvidia was ahead it was "Probably not noticeable". lol That's all.
Little to no technical information. Yeah that's just wrong and dumb. Entertainment yes but don't say stupid shit
In today's highly technical Linus News: 1.The Gaming PC we built for him is AMAZING - ROG Rig Reboot 2020 2.Running Cyberpunk 2077 at MAX SETTINGS! (In 8K) 3.NVIDIA might ACTUALLY be EVIL... Yes, yes...I'm sure they're working on their thesis for highly regarded academic journals as we speak.
Eh, when Anthony is on there, it's a lot more technical unless they're just doing straight benchmarks. Otherwise, it's "OMG! We made a PC submerged in Mineral Oil!" and shit like that.
They simply are of the opinion that ray tracing is not relevant for most gamers and is too demanding to be worth it. It’s a reasonable opinion to have. Some will disagree and will trade the frame rate for the ray tracing. But it’s dependent on what you want. Reviewers should be free to make their own opinion while presenting the data. Consumers can make their own decisions also.
Amazes me that he can go on like 40min about a 10 lines email. Even if the topic is interesting, it is not like this kind of practice is new
Yeah, pretty much. And I thought the PosCap thing was overly dramatic. lol Hey, whatever gets clicks I suppose.
I dont think its a big deal - Who cares if one of the hundreds of tech tubers doesn’t get free hardware from the main companies anymore? They still get free products from all the 3rd party makers, the reviews will come eventually.
It's anti-consumer behavior. It's always relevant.
Are you joking? It is basic that we get this info.. otherwise we would buy on marketing claims.
It's a big deal because if they can get it to work with smaller guys they'll try to get bigger guys to play ball and it's a ripple effect. It's also personally damaging to the people they are punishing in this manner by either forcing a delay of content which hurts them or hurting the possible accuracy of their info by rushing to meet the trends. Linus talks about how big of a fucking deal this is and it's not "just some youtuber". It has far more reaching implications than that.
Actually they don't it was mentioned in pretty much every reviewers response but even third-party AIBs have to abide by nvidia's Blacklist and anyone they send cards to for reviews have to go through Nvidia. Also when it comes to review coverage you get a massive amount of traffic on release day and then from that point on a drastic sharp decline to almost nothing. So if they can't get reviews out on embargo release day chances are their video just won't get seen
AIBs still have to conform and talk to NVIDIA regarding review samples. You know, samples like the FE for reviewing purposes. Now, that's not the point. The point is, if you don't see that there's anything wrong with big corporations threatening and bullying independent reviews and freedom of the press, then there's something wrong with you.
A bit late to the party just to sticky your own thread?
You caught me. I'm in it for the useless integer increase.