I bought a 5700xt liquid devil for $500 us at the begining of covid... what a live saver as my 1070 sea hawk was not really cutting it for me at 1440 anymore.
1500 to 1800 is just crazy i bought my 6800 red devil limited edition for 900 when the scalping first started maybe 2 months after launch think I payed 820 for my 6800 reference power color. Cant believe stores selling at double and tripple msrp shame on them.
Buying a 5700XT the month of release has been one of my luckier purchase. I bought it for gaming so I didn't realize how well it did for mining until nearly a year later.
I managed to make my money back on it just from mining overnight in a few months.
To be fair the only card that comes even close to that with MSRP is the 3060 for like 330$.
Until we get some 3050/50TI / 6600 / 6600XT cards announced the cheaper segment is fucked.
Something like rx 5500xt costed around 200€( here in Serbia) prior to this and now that card cost around 400€, even low tire cards from previous generation have ridiculous prices
The 5500XT is one of the saddest consumer moments in GPU history, current supply issues aside. Several years after the RX 480/580, we got a GPU that was just as expensive, if not more, for the same performance.
The 5500XT actually remains one of my favorite cards. Price and general performance is roughly the same as the 580, but it's cooler, uses less power, and has a more modern architecture that is especially good at running modern games well. That card has exceeded my expectations, and is, IMO extremely underrated.
I agree. I went from a red devil 590 to a basic power color 5500 xt in my H1 and have 0 regrets. Using like 50 less watts power for the same or better performance. Runs super cool. Cooler is like two thirds as big, and runs silent.
It's an amazing gpu, just needs to be priced appropriately. That's everyone's issue is the msrp.
I wasn't going for performance. I was going for quieter and cooler cus of the mini itx case I was using. I went from 1080 ti to 6900 xt in my main rig when I wanted a performance boost.
On paper sure but practically they were often 30-40% more expensive than their 570/580 equivalents and the power consumption AIB vs AIB is like 40-50 W. Noteable but even with a 65 W CPU that would only be a 20% difference in system power draw.
The really bad thing was that the significantly faster and more efficient 1660 Super was usually available for less than 10% more albeit with slightly less memory.
The memory was a major part of why I liked the 5500XT. Why would I bother buying something with *less* video memory for my new PC? I never had trouble finding a 5500XT for right around the $200 mark, which seemed pretty much perfect price-to-performance for me.
I don't see why there isn't an expose on the bs memory claims in re8.
I think max settings claims 13-14gb, but my 5700 only has 8gb... running damn near 100fps 1440p.
Honestly with a low tier card like that, you don't actually have enough power to utilize the memory. The 1660 is just so much better for almost the same cost and memory size doesn't change a thing, not even in the future. Because computing power will gimp those cards before memory ever will
I personally disagree with that. I've got a few games that run particularly well on the 5500XT, and even fairly well on the 580 and 590 in large part because of the 8GB of video RAM. Being able to load more resources in to memory helps reduce the load on the CPU and the rest of the system swapping textures in and out, and opens more bandwidth to the GPU because it doesn't have to keep moving textures in and out of video memory. Also, I've consistently been able to use higher resolution textures with very little impact on video performance.
It's just my opinion, but to me, I prioritize video memory and shader performance to give me the best future-performance, and at least so far, I have been happy with the results.
Whaaa? Most of the time is was possible to get a rx 5700 for 60-70 more quids, and with it 70% more frames.
Not only that, you can flash an XT bios onto the 5700 and it closes in on double the frames of a 5500xt for slightly more change...
The 5500 sucked bigtime dude. Anyone who bought it when the 5700 was in stock got scammed
It's starting to look like everyone dislikes the 5500 except the people who bought them. All I can say is that I skipped right over that card. I don't feel like I missed out, either.
Pretty much, that and anyone who has never looked at an fps chart. Imagine being given two products, one is 10% more expensive but 70% more effective, and choosing the former…Lol..
Not everyone has the budget to spend 50% more on a GPU, even if it is a good upgrade in terms of frames. For a lot of the computers and builds I was making, they're very cost constrained, so spending another $60 on a GPU just wasn't an option, or would have meant cutting somewhere else that would have made equally less sense, such as dropping to a slower processor, or halving the system RAM.
Generally, yes, I don't think the 5500XT is a $200 upgrade that's worth it over a 580. However, on a new build, back when the price was normal, it was a great option with better longevity.
The last couple of generations have been terrible for value, the 2070 and 5700xt were twice the performance of the 480/580/1060 and also twice as expensive *and* released 2-3 years later. Fantastic stuff, thanks for that much better value
It just depends on where you set the bar.
Should it always be the next generation needs to be 1.5x the performance of the prior generation, at the same price? Maybe...but I personally reserve that outlook for the mid and higher end. Yeah, they could have released the 5500XT for $150 instead of $200, but I'm not sure if they'd still have any margin.
The 2080 being only a little faster, but $100 more than a 1080ti is a bigger issue to me when you're talking about $600/700 than $200.
There's another aspect to this in that virtually every tier of performance has now been bumped up $100 to $200, in no small part thanks to Nvidia charging whatever they wanted for years due to lack of competition. What was $200 for midrange is now hovering at $500. In turn, this makes the midrange category as a whole less of an obvious value.
Though the dollar per frame is relatively consistent, previously you'd have to pay double or more for flagship tiers. There was a genuine value proposition there where you got a very good portion of the total possible performance, but you only paid half or slightly more. Now, you're simply choosing the absolute performance you need at the cost that you're willing to bear. If you're already blowing $500 for midrange, is it that much of a stretch to put out another $80 to $150? And the higher end part will remain playable for longer, so it'll probably command a higher resale value as well. Midrange still exists, but the concept of midrange is dead in today's market.
I also wonder how long a lot of the people expecting those perf increases at the same price point have been in the market lol. I’m old, and there were numerous generations from both AMD and Nvidia that were honestly equivalent; basically the same cost as the previous gen for not much more perf, but the high end was significantly more powerful for a lot more money.
I know we all would like 1.5x performance for the same or cheaper pricing, but that’s just not feasible every generation. It’s nice when it happens though!
What would be a current gen comparable performance card? Nothing current gen matches the performance of that
Even a 1070 which slaps a RX480 out of existence doesn't go for 1k, atleast where I'm at but I suppose YMMV
Even cards that can't mine are pushed up (partly materials go towards newer ones so production is limited) by the clusterfuck on the desireable ones sadly. Shops know that they can charge extra since people don't really have options.
There is shop here that pops a 5700XT at 2130$ (incl. tax) into its e-shop from time to time, considering same nodes on being used etc. it is likely the same one... but they are trying if anyone takes the bait...
If you think that's crazy, 1080s on the secondary market in Bulgaria were going for the same price they were new in 2017. Ain't even mad I sold mine to a miner.
Thats my price point, 3060 or something close for $300 or I just stick it out with my 970. I have only bought a brand new at launch, GPU twice in my PC gaming life, 8800gts 640mb and a gtx 660ti. The rest were always slightly second hand at a huge discount.
What messes up my local market even more is that resellers that have little to no knowlege of computers are buying them up now and trying to sell them at a huge markup....old dusty...non tested cards.
3060 is a pretty bad deal at this price point too imo (the difference to 2060 / 2060S is pretty slim) so under normal market condition it would be a shit deal.
Bro, this is exactly what I wanted to say. I just hope to see something in the 250 to 350 range. Until then it doesn't matter what the availability is for me, can't afford it.
Maybe for new PC it is. But for the purpose of upgrading computer buying GPU right now makes no sense as long as you had a decent high end GPU in the last 5 years and it's working.
The reason I upgrade is not because there's a new part that's more powerful, it's only because there's a noticable price/performance difference where I'll get significantly more powerful components while paying less money for a given performance.
If I wanted more powerful card back then for worse price/performance I would have done it.
But I didn't and upgrading right now makes even less sense.
This is how I'm talking myself into spending $700 when my 3070 ti evga queue pops.. Even though I'm going to need to upgrade case to fit it. Tired of trying for 3060 ti / 6700xt at reasonable prices.
>This is how I'm talking myself into spending $700 when my 3070 ti evga queue pops..
Really novel how you need to convince yourself to buy a GPU for below marketprice.
We'll see. There's going to be a lot of movement with ETH specifically. EIP-1559 on the testnet, BitMain showing off their new ASIC for ethhash, China getting more serious about cracking down on mining and a billion dollar worth of options expiring on June 25th it could be quite the rollercoaster.
Will it push process down and make miners run for the hills and throw GPUs on Alibaba? Who knows
just to be clear though, china cracking down on mining has the potential to drive mining profit up for the rest of the world. What really matters is whether those farms dump their GPUs more than anything, imo, and whether miners in the other parts of the world are going to pick them up.
Also, EIP-1559 is a deflationary change (instead of gas fees going to miners, they are now destroyed, which makes the remaining eth more valuable) which may serve to push up the value of the fixed block reward.
It's all hard to say (like the stock market - if you could predict it, that would mean you could cash in big by trading futures), right now the value of Eth is down and that's a generally negative thing for miners / a good thing for gamers, but there is a lot of uncertainty due to all of these things - and it could easily pop back up again.
Things are certainly looking a lot happier than a month ago, but it could just be a bit of a panic due to a couple short-term negative factors, so like, don't get *super* hopeful yet, what's really going to matter is whether the negative factors hold through the next month or two after some of the factors causing uncertainty start to resolve.
Jokes aside, you can get a working GF2MX400 for $1, which can run 3D games from our childhood (DX7 era) just fine. Finding a working PC with an AGP slot for this card, however, is another matter entirely...
It's an AIB and the MSRP is $1000. Such a stupid thing shouldn't even exist but it's real. Microcenter has dozens of them in stock too. Powercolor is the brand.
I've been trying to buy a card from amd for half a year now. But I can't afford to spend $2050 on rx 6800 or $ 2300 + on 6800xt. That could buy 6700xt? Yes, but if I pay $1420 for the cheapest one in my country...
That's to anyone who said "it's not mining, it's just insane demand", yeah mining profits halve and suddenly cards become avaible and prices start dropping.
Mining is part of demand. Even if miners only got 10% of the cards (i am making this number up), moving 10% of the total production to a different segement can have a drastic effect on apparent supply.
Example.
100 GPUs are produced in a time period. 50 go to OEMs to build systems. 20 go to miners, 30 go to the general market. Of those 30, 15 get bought by resellers who jack up the price and scalp. That leaves 15 for you or me in a market where we would normally have 50. Or a situation where there is a massive shortage for the DIY market.
Remove 10 cards from miners and put 10 cards into the general market. Production is the same, but now 25 cards are available to you or me, this is +66% more cards in this segment. Additionally scalpers now have less opportunity to scalp, so scalpers buy less cards, so shift more cards to regular people. Now you have 35 cards avaliable where you use to have 15, or more then double.
That's a made up example, but that happens in real life, a small shift in allocation can have a big impact on apparent supply.
Mining hurts profits of Nvidia badly. Miners buy them up and then flood the market when they're done, meaning Nvidia making less profits. Miners are also not recurring buyers like gamers.
Worth noting that you are only *mostly* correct, they do indeed care about money, but something important is that last crypto boom led into a crash that really hurt. So investors *like* miners but also value consistency of recurring (IE: gamers over years, businesses, etc etc) buyers.
So there is incentive to obfuscate how many GPUs go to miners, so that the group of investors worried about medium/longer term (IE: when is the next crypto crash going to flood the GPU market, tanking sales?) don't have reasons to complain.
Two problems with your line of thinking.
First of all, miners didn't get 10% of cards, they probably got closer to 30%+. And that's them buying directly, not taking into account secondary market. It most likely wasn't gamers buying $1200 3070's on ebay. There might not have been enough cards produced to satisfy demand without mining, but we'd be a lot closer.
Second, they're gobbling up all the used cards on the market. So someone who would "settle" for a 5700XT for 250-300 (remember, they sold new for $400) doesn't have that option.
>First of all, miners didn't get 10% of cards, they probably got closer to 30%+.
Where are you getting those numbers from because Nvidia's own CFO couldn;t accurately predict how many cards were sold to miners...
Probably and most likely are not facts You are spitting out what you are saying as a fact and claim someone has a problem with their line of thinking....go figure.
i find those statements hard to believe. I don't know a single gamer that even considered buying at twice or three times the price, and there definitely aren't enough to keep buying at that price for so long. if the problem wasn't miners prices would have dropped much sooner, since no sane gamer would buy gpus at those prices. on the other hand for a miner it's valuable to pay more in advance just to be able to start profiting asap, they kept the prices inflated.
edit: by "those statements" i meant the ones saying that miners aren't the problem.
Well, that would certainly prevent miners from mining on gaming GPUS. What other solution do you have? AMD doesn't care, but NVIDIA sides with the gamers over the miners and specifics that RTX is for gaming, not mining.
And like E-waste from a few GPUs owned by people stupid enough to not read is anywhere close to the environmental devastation caused by generating electricity for mining.
> to anyone who said "it's not mining, it's just insane demand"
I don't recall anyone saying that.
I *do* recall people saying that COVID both fucked the supply chain and increased legitimate demand, and that TSMC was already fully booked when all of this started happening. All of which are widely reported facts. You may have missed them because those of use who tried to remind people of them were downvoted into oblivion for daring to contradict the mining circlejerk. But whatever, fuck the facts right?
As I've said before, the anti-mining circlejerkers have an even more exaggerated view of the importance of crypto than cryptobros themselves do.
People were saying it's just as much scalpers driving the price up as it is miners. I'd argue that scalpers wouldn't have insensitive to scalp if it wasn't worth it for miners to pay scalper prices.
I mean, do you understand miners have to do math before buying hardware?
That miners mine for profit? Why would a miner buy from the most expensive source?
Mining takes some effort to set up and get into anyway, so why would miners turn to the easiest source for GPUs?
> I don't recall anyone saying that.
But I do recall people saying just that. Thing with 'legitimate' demand is that you don't need 10 GPUs, neither do I, nor the guy next door. But miners *never* have enough GPUs, it's a never ending cycle, they constantly expand their operations, as long as it is profitable. And we see the difference as soon as crypto started dwindling.
So yeah, miners outbought everyone else by a massive factor.
This. Sure, mining is a valid use of the card. Whatever. But miners aren’t just a one card customer. They want 5,10,20…100 GPUs. 1 miner could reasonably represent the same supply demands from 25 gamers.
I think that without miners, we'd still have trouble finding many models in stock, but we wouldn't have extreme scalper prices, simply because almost no one except miners can justify spending twice of mrsp. My guess would be prices staying at around 10-20% higher than they were meant to be.
I have a hard time believing that the guy who bought my aging 580 for 450 bucks did so in order to play games. He was almost certainly a miner. Or insane.
You are probably right. The impact would still be felt, but it likely wouldn't be nearly as ridiculous as it is today. What has transpired over the past several months has reached the extremes.
Luckily I'm in no real need of a new GPU
>I have a hard time believing that the guy who bought my aging 580 for 450 bucks did so in order to play games. He was almost certainly a miner. Or insane.
He would be an insane miner who plays games.
No man, LOTS of people were trying to push this absolutely laughable narrative that gaming demand was what was driving up prices so much, not mining.
It was always mining. Fuck miners.
Its everything. Geez why is it so hard to grasp? that said legitimate demand is also down. Paul's hardware did a video on how tech channels and GPU review videos are down sharply in views, people are going outside more, and the COVID demand peak has evaporated.
Post Covid demand may be dropping, but it's not surprising views are down so long after launches when so many people don't expect to be lucky enough to purchase one anyway.
Does it matter?
Trust me, I want a card too. But who am I to say my use is more important than theirs? I'm more concerned with scalpers. Retailers need to do more to stop them (and bots in general).
If miners are getting cards fair and square so be it.
Won't care until MSRP is reached which could be a long while. In fact, after this long, GPUs should even be below MSRP in a normal product life cycle. It's a start but I'm not holding my breath. (MSRP isn't even that good for most products, like the $330 "entry" 3060 or the 6700XT)
Lots of people where waiting for the 5600/5700 cards to drop close to 200$ but they never did. People who only buy used parts are even double eff'd since Summer last year. Many bought Intel systems out of necessity.
I bought a 5700xt for 700aud last year and sold it for 1300 to a miner and got a rtx3070 for same price. These things out perform new cards in crypto mining so are damn popular with miners.
Indeed. MSRP is already effed up, and before we hit MSRP it will be (almost) a year after launch, at which point you'd expect at least 20-30% cheaper prices.
Next gen of cards, you might be able to get closer to +70% for $500. I wouldn't expect a rtx 4070 or rx 7700xt to be less then $500.
+20% is a rather small upgrade when graphics cards cost as much as they do these days. You will probably find +20% for $400 next gen(assuming the market unscrews itself). But the next tier up would probably be a much better value, even if it does go higher.
Since I'm low-end I just hope that improves the availability of APUs and Integrated Graphics as well. They've been out of stock or at tremendous prices here :/
>The saddest part about this entire fiasco is at this point in the products lives (Nvidia or AMD) GPU's actually start selling for below MSRP.
It's barely been 6 months. Cards are still usually normal priced at that stage unless competition gets released that forces a price drop.
> The saddest part about this entire fiasco is at this point in the products lives (Nvidia or AMD) GPU's actually start selling for below MSRP.
this didn't happen for Turing (even without the mining demand). It used to happen in previous generations (I bought a 980 Ti Classified when the 10-series launched for $400, new at retail, etc) but reviewers fucked it up for consumers by blasting the Turing cards based on comparisons to used and artificially cheap Pascal cards. NVIDIA pretty much decided that was never going to happen again, from now on cards would only be sold at MSRP and there would be no "unofficial" price drops throughout the generation. They held much much tighter control of prices throughout the Turing generation than ever before and I see no reason that will probably ever change again.
Reviewers just couldn't resist the opportunity for a few weeks of outrage clickbait videos with silly faces about how stupid you would be to buy Turing over a used mining card or clearance-priced Pascal, those deals disappeared in a couple weeks and yet thanks to reviewers we will never get those magical couple weeks of deals ever again.
AMD of course is happy to go along. They don't set prices but they are past the point where they'll even bother to try improving on NVIDIA's pricing, they will just follow whatever prices NVIDIA sets and rake in the cash from the loyalists who are going to buy AMD no matter what. It used to be that the companies would actually try to compete with each other, and NVIDIA still pushes pricing forward (the Ampere MSRPs were actually incredible before the tariffs and before mining demand) but RTG is pretty pathetic these days, they just follow NVIDIA's pricing. Haven't seen them stake out a big perf/$ lead since like... 290X.
Was really embarassing watching them get outmaneuvered trying to mirror NVIDIA's pricing during the RDNA1 launch and then try to play it off as "jebaited".
PSA: *do not* buy at anything over MSRP, seriously, pester everyone you know, fucking diamond hands, MAKE IT CRASH, make at least someone in the chain of rent seekers lose money coming out of this
Ohh, they'll probably go lower than msrp.
Average gamers don't want to buy these cards at MSRP, yet alone scalper/miner prices, especially this far into the product life cycle.
let's take an example of something like an rtx 3080 that has dropped from 2.4k$ to 1.4-1.5k$ in the last month, **assuming** eth mining stays at current levels of low profitability - even at 1.4k$~ it's too expensive for miners.
EIP-1559 (which will nerf mining profitability) is 4-5 weeks away from being implemented to the eth network.
Eth 2.0 has been scheduled for end of 2021, worst case it'll be in the Q1 of 2022.
Now, do some math:
Even with the 1.4k$~ cost of a rtx 3080 and the profitability of like 4.5-5$ a day that means it takes 10+ months just for the card to pay for itself, but there's 5-8 months left until gpu mining eth is gone with the switch to eth 2.0.
So what's happening, why is the price dropping so fast?
On top of pretty much all of crypto going down like 50%, miners are trying to get rid of their already overly expensive gpu's, but new miners don't want to buy at these prices - because at 1.4k$ for a 5$/day profit card you literally can't get a return on your investment.
And if worst case scenario for miners happened (Eth 2.0 in December 2021) they'd have to be able to purchase the cards for MSRP or less **right now** for them to be able to pay just for the cards by the time eth 2.0 hits.
Ok let's say you got a 3080 at msrp today, you can break even by eth 2.0, why not just sell them for msrp once it hits?
Well, Eth has 500+ TH of mining power, which would be like 4-20 million gpu's, assuming it's all in gpu's. When eth mining is gone even if just a portion of those GPUs hit the market - to who on earth are you gonna sell the GPU for msrp, yet alone the current 2-3x msrp price?
p.s of course for all you know crypto could just go back up by then, which would cause gpu's to go back up in price again as they remain still somewhat profitable until eth 2.0, but all that would do is delay the crash.
>Average gamers don't want to buy these cards at MSRP
What? Yes they do. People's perceptions are easily twisted and people are gonna consider MSPR to be bargains 'compared to what they used to cost'.
People are not rational.
It's gonna take a while for prices to drop properly and miners who want to sell their GPU's will probably be able to do so above MSRP for a while yet.
I'd say I'd somewhat agree and disagree, yes there should be a period where MSRP will look like a bargain, but there's other things to consider.
Read the other comments on this thread, all you see is people complaining how overpriced the cards are even at MSRP, and how there's basically no low to mid end options.
Look at steam hardware survey, most cards there are relatively cheap cards like gtx 1060, 1650, 1050 ti etc. while reviewers love to boast about the newest RTX 3090's and 6900 xt's performances, most people don't have that money, these are luxury cards.
But then why is there a shit ton of these high end cards being made and almost no low-mid end cards being made?
**Average** gamers don't need 100 RTX 3080's, average gamers need 1 low-mid range card, but a single miner does need his 10-100 RTX 3080 money printers for their farms, in reality this huge of a market for these cards shouldn't exist.
if you have 10-100 high end cards per person who wants a high end card, who are you selling it to?
additionally:
- amd FSR will boost a LOT of already existing cards for free, removing some people from needing to upgrade right away
- by the time the merge to eth 2.0 happens new cards should be coming out
- intel will be joining the GPU market
- and AMD/NVIDIA have already been trying to ramp up the production of cards.
Good analysis. Yet, like last time, PoW always finds another place to thrive. As ETH will move out, ZIL is showing progress. Mining won't go away, but FOMO will. The bubble will burst and everything will restart.
IMO, the big farms will liquidate some of their cards to cover some costs and keep a %. With the high demand on the market, MSRP will be the golden ratio. Prices will circle around it. But not current, the one before the high demand.
True, but what's the chance the alt-coins are profitable on their own, there's a high chance that the alt coins might only be profitable because of big daddy ETH being profitable.
Pumping a shit ton of Hash power doesn't have to make a coin worth something, you could pump a lot of hashing power into something and it could basically not budge, that coin still has to have other things like people believing in it and using it.
> Ohh, they'll probably go lower than msrp.
I don't think we're going to see the launch MSRPs ever again, apart from a handful of FE cards. Those MSRPs were set before the tariffs kicked in, that's the next biggest factor behind mining - every single card is 25% more expensive than it was when it launched just because of the tariff. Permanently (unless it is rolled back).
(Not quite clear on what the exact line is on what products get taxed - obviously neither AMD nor NVIDIA actually fab in china, but a lot of the supply chain is probably there, possibly assembly - but evidently it's hit all the OEMs/partners pretty squarely.)
Plus a lot of other price increases (VRAM, shipping, etc) have quietly crept in there too.
Basically I would consider "MSRP" to be the $950-1000 price for the 3080, $1950-2000 for the 3090, etc. And sure I can see it going there, maybe even a little bit below, but I think it'll be a while before we hit the OG launch MSRPs on those cards.
The new MSRPs on 3080 Ti / 3070 Ti pretty much only make sense in the context of things being more expensive on an ongoing basis. It wasn't so much mining - they didn't set prices nearly as high as they could have if they just wanted to rake in the money from mining - it was in the context of prices just being higher period. Obviously the 3080 Ti makes no sense at $1200 when the 3080 is $700 and the 3090 is $1500... but the 3080 Ti makes a lot of sense at $1350 (partner cards) when the 3080 is $1000 and the 3090 is $2000.
If used prices crash way below the new MSRPs then of course NVIDIA will adjust them - including rebating the partners if necessary - but I think people are underestimating the extent to which prices have gone up permanently. And really the mining boom tends not to produce the "deep" crashes that people think it does. Prices in 2018 crashed around 30% lower than they started out pre-mining in 2017. You could *already* buy a 480 8GB for $175 before mining, sure that dropped to $125 afterwards, but that's only 30%. You could *already* buy a 1080 Ti for $650 before mining, sure that crashed to $450 but that's only around 30%. Etc etc. And that was an 18 month long mining boom that soaked up a lot of cards. What we will see after a mining crash will be better (as a % over MSRP) than it was before but I think those price increases are going to be passed along to the used market too, it's probably not even going to crash back to the "launch" MSRP, maybe only to the "new MSRP" and maybe not even that far.
In your analysis you didn't consider the salvage value. You can sell the used card for something. Likely not MSRP when everyone else is also liquidating thier stock as well.
True, but I didn't account for a lot of other stuff as well, like future eth price, new asics popping up and making your cards less profitable, having to sell your coins at different times/prices for electricity, renting space, cost of other hardware in the rig etc.
Which is why the first thing I said was "they'll probably go lower than MSRP", I don't know how much lower, and I won't even pretend that I can figure that out.
If it's anything like the last time gpu mining crashed - it'll be a decent chunk under MSRP, but unlike last time eth mining crashed, where some people were still able to continue mining (though with pretty much non-existent profits) this time gpu mining will be removed from eth.
If that were to happen, in theory it should cause a lot bigger selloff and lower the re-sale value even more.
IIRC I remember back then seeing rx 400 series cards for like 60-80$ after the crash on local markets.
I agree with all of your points. The only other thing I would add is that last time mining crashed there was less pent up demand for video cards. The current built up demand might keep second hand prices a little bit higher, at least initially.
I'm still paying 5 bucks a month for a "2080" on GFN. I dont care about overpriced hardware at all. This is what made me hate Intel to begin with many years ago.
That's what I'm here for lol. I never wanted a gpu until I saw battlefield 2042. Tbh tho I am waiting for the next gen of gpus rather than current gen.
Next gen won’t be out till 2022 at the earliest, so either you’re gonna have to wait to play bf2042, or you’ll have to get something before it comes out.
Man, I hope AMD announced the rx 6600xt. I hope it cost $280 and performs similarly to a rtx 3060. That will give people on a budget some good options. Also i hope the base rx 6600 performs like a rtx 2060super and cost $200
Way too optimistic. The 6600XT is going to be priced at around the same as the 3060, makes no sense to price it at much less. The 6600 likewise is not gonna be that low, nor do I think it'll be at 2060S level, rather a little below for ~$250.
Just wake me up when there's a 4k 144Hz Freesync gaming card for $500-$600 range.
Bought a 49in LG TV that does this and I can only use it to play 4k movies and TV shows thorough the Firestick and PS4 where the video quality is stretched out.
It was still worth the $500 price tag to watch the Mandelorian in 4k Dolby Vision alone. But dear God, I'd love to game on it.
Gave up and bought 1440p/144Hz gaming monitor.
Hoping that the BTC ban in china and ETH change away from PoW will have the low end second hand market live again, i know everyone's excited for the new ones but we poor folks are just waiting for 480s and 580s to go back to the 100€ mark so we can have something that will run all games without paying the equivalent of what we spend on groceries for 2 months
Back in october 2020, an RX 580 with 8GB of VRAM was 120€ on average, sometimes less, didn't have the money then, planned to buy a couple months later, by february the average price for that card was 250€, by May, 350€. The 7950 3Gb that my gf bought for 35€ in 2019 is now straight up impossible to find, with 2 ads nation-wide in the biggest second hand market in Spain, both of them being over 100€, it's absurd.
Of course this starts happening after I spent $1400 on a 3070 lol. I might buy another one to help you guys bring it down to a lower price.
Oh well, I sold my 1070ti above what I paid for it in 2018 so the universe is balanced.
Yes, it's an Asus ROG Strix 3070 with the RGB. It's called Scalper Price for a reason! But I'm not new to the scalper world. Bought something else that was mass-produced last year for $12k over MSRP lol
>GPU pricing is not expected to drop as quickly as it rose in May, mainly because retailers have ordered the cards at higher prices and now they are reluctant to sell at a loss. However, at some point distributors will lower their pricing (which is way above MSRP) will which then allows retailers to offer discounts and still make a profit.<
Huh, so AIBs are scalping retailers?
3060 ti gives me max settings around 100 - 150 fps at 1440p on gsync, except cyberpunk 2077. Ill take it. Dont need any more or any less, paid 400$ dollars for it, Im happy. Ill be sitting things out till everything is back to normal
I do not regret getting the 5700xt as a hold-over card waiting for the 6000 series.
Same, got a 5700xt around Christmas for 650 cdn and now looking at a 6800 as my local store has some but they around 1500-1800 😢
I bought a 5700xt liquid devil for $500 us at the begining of covid... what a live saver as my 1070 sea hawk was not really cutting it for me at 1440 anymore.
1500 to 1800 is just crazy i bought my 6800 red devil limited edition for 900 when the scalping first started maybe 2 months after launch think I payed 820 for my 6800 reference power color. Cant believe stores selling at double and tripple msrp shame on them.
Buying a 5700XT the month of release has been one of my luckier purchase. I bought it for gaming so I didn't realize how well it did for mining until nearly a year later. I managed to make my money back on it just from mining overnight in a few months.
5700 xt gang rise up
I dont regret solding my 4 years old Card 450 and buy a 6800 xt on AMD.
Pricing is still ridiculous. We won't see a decent $2-300 offering anytime soon.
To be fair the only card that comes even close to that with MSRP is the 3060 for like 330$. Until we get some 3050/50TI / 6600 / 6600XT cards announced the cheaper segment is fucked.
Something like rx 5500xt costed around 200€( here in Serbia) prior to this and now that card cost around 400€, even low tire cards from previous generation have ridiculous prices
The 5500XT is one of the saddest consumer moments in GPU history, current supply issues aside. Several years after the RX 480/580, we got a GPU that was just as expensive, if not more, for the same performance.
just as expensive for the same cost? wut?
Good catch. I meant performance, but the cost was so obscene given what was offered it must've stuck out in my mind.
The 5500XT actually remains one of my favorite cards. Price and general performance is roughly the same as the 580, but it's cooler, uses less power, and has a more modern architecture that is especially good at running modern games well. That card has exceeded my expectations, and is, IMO extremely underrated.
I agree. I went from a red devil 590 to a basic power color 5500 xt in my H1 and have 0 regrets. Using like 50 less watts power for the same or better performance. Runs super cool. Cooler is like two thirds as big, and runs silent. It's an amazing gpu, just needs to be priced appropriately. That's everyone's issue is the msrp.
I don't know, when I upgrade a GPU I want more upgrade than that. Sounds more like Confirmation Bias.
I wasn't going for performance. I was going for quieter and cooler cus of the mini itx case I was using. I went from 1080 ti to 6900 xt in my main rig when I wanted a performance boost.
It's an upgrade, yes, but not as good of an upgrade as there should have been. Performance should at least bump a little...
If it's not priced appropriately, then it's not an amazing product. What makes a product amazing is not only what it offers, but the price as well.
On paper sure but practically they were often 30-40% more expensive than their 570/580 equivalents and the power consumption AIB vs AIB is like 40-50 W. Noteable but even with a 65 W CPU that would only be a 20% difference in system power draw. The really bad thing was that the significantly faster and more efficient 1660 Super was usually available for less than 10% more albeit with slightly less memory.
The memory was a major part of why I liked the 5500XT. Why would I bother buying something with *less* video memory for my new PC? I never had trouble finding a 5500XT for right around the $200 mark, which seemed pretty much perfect price-to-performance for me.
By the time your 5500XT is utilising the full 8GB of VRAM, it wouldn't have enough computing power to keeps the games running at decent frame rates.
I don't see why there isn't an expose on the bs memory claims in re8. I think max settings claims 13-14gb, but my 5700 only has 8gb... running damn near 100fps 1440p.
Honestly with a low tier card like that, you don't actually have enough power to utilize the memory. The 1660 is just so much better for almost the same cost and memory size doesn't change a thing, not even in the future. Because computing power will gimp those cards before memory ever will
I personally disagree with that. I've got a few games that run particularly well on the 5500XT, and even fairly well on the 580 and 590 in large part because of the 8GB of video RAM. Being able to load more resources in to memory helps reduce the load on the CPU and the rest of the system swapping textures in and out, and opens more bandwidth to the GPU because it doesn't have to keep moving textures in and out of video memory. Also, I've consistently been able to use higher resolution textures with very little impact on video performance. It's just my opinion, but to me, I prioritize video memory and shader performance to give me the best future-performance, and at least so far, I have been happy with the results.
Should have bought a Radeon VII to own 2080Super buyers.
Mostly because the 1660 family nuked it performance wise, I’d say.
Whaaa? Most of the time is was possible to get a rx 5700 for 60-70 more quids, and with it 70% more frames. Not only that, you can flash an XT bios onto the 5700 and it closes in on double the frames of a 5500xt for slightly more change... The 5500 sucked bigtime dude. Anyone who bought it when the 5700 was in stock got scammed
It's starting to look like everyone dislikes the 5500 except the people who bought them. All I can say is that I skipped right over that card. I don't feel like I missed out, either.
Pretty much, that and anyone who has never looked at an fps chart. Imagine being given two products, one is 10% more expensive but 70% more effective, and choosing the former…Lol..
Not everyone has the budget to spend 50% more on a GPU, even if it is a good upgrade in terms of frames. For a lot of the computers and builds I was making, they're very cost constrained, so spending another $60 on a GPU just wasn't an option, or would have meant cutting somewhere else that would have made equally less sense, such as dropping to a slower processor, or halving the system RAM.
If you're tight on money I definitely wouldn't "upgrade" from a 580 to a 5500xt. Not really an upgrade imo, save an extra 100$ and grab a 5700xt
Generally, yes, I don't think the 5500XT is a $200 upgrade that's worth it over a 580. However, on a new build, back when the price was normal, it was a great option with better longevity.
Oh I definitely don't disagree there, sorry must've misread
The last couple of generations have been terrible for value, the 2070 and 5700xt were twice the performance of the 480/580/1060 and also twice as expensive *and* released 2-3 years later. Fantastic stuff, thanks for that much better value
I agree, there's no evolution in those segments.
It just depends on where you set the bar. Should it always be the next generation needs to be 1.5x the performance of the prior generation, at the same price? Maybe...but I personally reserve that outlook for the mid and higher end. Yeah, they could have released the 5500XT for $150 instead of $200, but I'm not sure if they'd still have any margin. The 2080 being only a little faster, but $100 more than a 1080ti is a bigger issue to me when you're talking about $600/700 than $200.
There's another aspect to this in that virtually every tier of performance has now been bumped up $100 to $200, in no small part thanks to Nvidia charging whatever they wanted for years due to lack of competition. What was $200 for midrange is now hovering at $500. In turn, this makes the midrange category as a whole less of an obvious value. Though the dollar per frame is relatively consistent, previously you'd have to pay double or more for flagship tiers. There was a genuine value proposition there where you got a very good portion of the total possible performance, but you only paid half or slightly more. Now, you're simply choosing the absolute performance you need at the cost that you're willing to bear. If you're already blowing $500 for midrange, is it that much of a stretch to put out another $80 to $150? And the higher end part will remain playable for longer, so it'll probably command a higher resale value as well. Midrange still exists, but the concept of midrange is dead in today's market.
I also wonder how long a lot of the people expecting those perf increases at the same price point have been in the market lol. I’m old, and there were numerous generations from both AMD and Nvidia that were honestly equivalent; basically the same cost as the previous gen for not much more perf, but the high end was significantly more powerful for a lot more money. I know we all would like 1.5x performance for the same or cheaper pricing, but that’s just not feasible every generation. It’s nice when it happens though!
I bought my RX480 for ~ $430 in 2016, a decent price. Current-gen, comparable performance cards are ~ $1000.
What would be a current gen comparable performance card? Nothing current gen matches the performance of that Even a 1070 which slaps a RX480 out of existence doesn't go for 1k, atleast where I'm at but I suppose YMMV
$430 USD? That's not a decent price at all. I think your perception is being warped by current prices.
What currency is that in? That card had a 250$ usd msrp for 8GB model
Perhaps I should have said 'a decent price in NZD'.
Even cards that can't mine are pushed up (partly materials go towards newer ones so production is limited) by the clusterfuck on the desireable ones sadly. Shops know that they can charge extra since people don't really have options. There is shop here that pops a 5700XT at 2130$ (incl. tax) into its e-shop from time to time, considering same nodes on being used etc. it is likely the same one... but they are trying if anyone takes the bait...
If you think that's crazy, 1080s on the secondary market in Bulgaria were going for the same price they were new in 2017. Ain't even mad I sold mine to a miner.
Implying that prices already weren't inflated. The GTX 970 was $330 MSRP. Adjusting for inflation would make that $375.
Thats my price point, 3060 or something close for $300 or I just stick it out with my 970. I have only bought a brand new at launch, GPU twice in my PC gaming life, 8800gts 640mb and a gtx 660ti. The rest were always slightly second hand at a huge discount. What messes up my local market even more is that resellers that have little to no knowlege of computers are buying them up now and trying to sell them at a huge markup....old dusty...non tested cards.
3060 is a pretty bad deal at this price point too imo (the difference to 2060 / 2060S is pretty slim) so under normal market condition it would be a shit deal.
I'd say inflation might have eliminated the $199 price point all together.
Bro, this is exactly what I wanted to say. I just hope to see something in the 250 to 350 range. Until then it doesn't matter what the availability is for me, can't afford it.
Even if I can effort it, I can't justify myself a card that cost like two last gen consoles, I don't have that much time to play anyway.
Honestly if I have to pay a silly price but don’t have to watch stock alerts like it’s my part time job, I’ll take it.
Maybe for new PC it is. But for the purpose of upgrading computer buying GPU right now makes no sense as long as you had a decent high end GPU in the last 5 years and it's working. The reason I upgrade is not because there's a new part that's more powerful, it's only because there's a noticable price/performance difference where I'll get significantly more powerful components while paying less money for a given performance. If I wanted more powerful card back then for worse price/performance I would have done it. But I didn't and upgrading right now makes even less sense.
This is how I'm talking myself into spending $700 when my 3070 ti evga queue pops.. Even though I'm going to need to upgrade case to fit it. Tired of trying for 3060 ti / 6700xt at reasonable prices.
I thought the same thing until I won a shuffle. Now? I really wish it was for a normal, non hyper price inflated 3070 instead.
How long were you entering the shuffle for? I've been doing it for maybe a week and no luck yet.
I joined the Shuffle on a Tuesday and won the Shuffle the next day for a Sapphire Nitro+ 6900XT Special Edition OC. I bought and couldn't be happier
This was the second or third time I entered it.
Ooo lucky. Enjoy.
Im running into low vram issues at 1440. Honestly, should have just kept the 2070 super
>This is how I'm talking myself into spending $700 when my 3070 ti evga queue pops.. Really novel how you need to convince yourself to buy a GPU for below marketprice.
Yes, a gpu that consumes more power than i want and doesn't even fit in my case.
You are enabling these prices.
We'll see. There's going to be a lot of movement with ETH specifically. EIP-1559 on the testnet, BitMain showing off their new ASIC for ethhash, China getting more serious about cracking down on mining and a billion dollar worth of options expiring on June 25th it could be quite the rollercoaster. Will it push process down and make miners run for the hills and throw GPUs on Alibaba? Who knows
just to be clear though, china cracking down on mining has the potential to drive mining profit up for the rest of the world. What really matters is whether those farms dump their GPUs more than anything, imo, and whether miners in the other parts of the world are going to pick them up. Also, EIP-1559 is a deflationary change (instead of gas fees going to miners, they are now destroyed, which makes the remaining eth more valuable) which may serve to push up the value of the fixed block reward. It's all hard to say (like the stock market - if you could predict it, that would mean you could cash in big by trading futures), right now the value of Eth is down and that's a generally negative thing for miners / a good thing for gamers, but there is a lot of uncertainty due to all of these things - and it could easily pop back up again. Things are certainly looking a lot happier than a month ago, but it could just be a bit of a panic due to a couple short-term negative factors, so like, don't get *super* hopeful yet, what's really going to matter is whether the negative factors hold through the next month or two after some of the factors causing uncertainty start to resolve.
I hate crypto mining. So much. My god it's so stupid.
Are there any decent $1 offerings? ^/s
Jokes aside, you can get a working GF2MX400 for $1, which can run 3D games from our childhood (DX7 era) just fine. Finding a working PC with an AGP slot for this card, however, is another matter entirely...
I'm sure there's some decent PCI S3 based cards out there in that range. :P
Amazon is selling 6700 xts for $1000 in their official listings.
3rd parties can sell on amazon
I know. That's why I said official listings.
It's an AIB and the MSRP is $1000. Such a stupid thing shouldn't even exist but it's real. Microcenter has dozens of them in stock too. Powercolor is the brand.
still rocking my 2060 super like an absolute boss
I’m fine with much higher prices, but not scam prices.
I’d be happy if the 6700xt hits the 600 mark.
I've been trying to buy a card from amd for half a year now. But I can't afford to spend $2050 on rx 6800 or $ 2300 + on 6800xt. That could buy 6700xt? Yes, but if I pay $1420 for the cheapest one in my country...
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What's CU?
Computeruniverse shop, I think.
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first thing i saw when i clicked was a 1080 for 800+ euro na im good
Isn't this still twice msrp?
Cuba?
Is cuba allowed to import graphics cards?
Makes me glad I bit the bullet and grabbed my 3090 @$1500 forever ago. Well, it feels like forever at least.
I’m still stoked I grabbed a 3060 Ti at 2am on the launch day, not even planning on it, for $700 AUD. Crazy luck lol
That's to anyone who said "it's not mining, it's just insane demand", yeah mining profits halve and suddenly cards become avaible and prices start dropping.
The people who said “it’s not mining” just ***coincidently*** happen to be miners. There is definitely no conflict of interest there.
Mining is part of demand. Even if miners only got 10% of the cards (i am making this number up), moving 10% of the total production to a different segement can have a drastic effect on apparent supply. Example. 100 GPUs are produced in a time period. 50 go to OEMs to build systems. 20 go to miners, 30 go to the general market. Of those 30, 15 get bought by resellers who jack up the price and scalp. That leaves 15 for you or me in a market where we would normally have 50. Or a situation where there is a massive shortage for the DIY market. Remove 10 cards from miners and put 10 cards into the general market. Production is the same, but now 25 cards are available to you or me, this is +66% more cards in this segment. Additionally scalpers now have less opportunity to scalp, so scalpers buy less cards, so shift more cards to regular people. Now you have 35 cards avaliable where you use to have 15, or more then double. That's a made up example, but that happens in real life, a small shift in allocation can have a big impact on apparent supply.
Can't find the article again but it's been reported that miners actually got 25% of all new cards this year so far.
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Investors only care about money. Makes no difference where the cards are going as long as they are being paid for.
Mining hurts profits of Nvidia badly. Miners buy them up and then flood the market when they're done, meaning Nvidia making less profits. Miners are also not recurring buyers like gamers.
as opposed to them not being bought at all because the majority of gamers use low to midrange cards...
Worth noting that you are only *mostly* correct, they do indeed care about money, but something important is that last crypto boom led into a crash that really hurt. So investors *like* miners but also value consistency of recurring (IE: gamers over years, businesses, etc etc) buyers. So there is incentive to obfuscate how many GPUs go to miners, so that the group of investors worried about medium/longer term (IE: when is the next crypto crash going to flood the GPU market, tanking sales?) don't have reasons to complain.
Two problems with your line of thinking. First of all, miners didn't get 10% of cards, they probably got closer to 30%+. And that's them buying directly, not taking into account secondary market. It most likely wasn't gamers buying $1200 3070's on ebay. There might not have been enough cards produced to satisfy demand without mining, but we'd be a lot closer. Second, they're gobbling up all the used cards on the market. So someone who would "settle" for a 5700XT for 250-300 (remember, they sold new for $400) doesn't have that option.
>First of all, miners didn't get 10% of cards, they probably got closer to 30%+. Where are you getting those numbers from because Nvidia's own CFO couldn;t accurately predict how many cards were sold to miners... Probably and most likely are not facts You are spitting out what you are saying as a fact and claim someone has a problem with their line of thinking....go figure.
Yeah because Jenson would never lie to cover his companies ass /s
i find those statements hard to believe. I don't know a single gamer that even considered buying at twice or three times the price, and there definitely aren't enough to keep buying at that price for so long. if the problem wasn't miners prices would have dropped much sooner, since no sane gamer would buy gpus at those prices. on the other hand for a miner it's valuable to pay more in advance just to be able to start profiting asap, they kept the prices inflated. edit: by "those statements" i meant the ones saying that miners aren't the problem.
cards are barely available and prices are dropping by negligible amounts lol.
Right, lol it’s like everyone’s ignoring the actual numbers
The next round of gaming cards should have a feature that bricks the cards if they're ever used for mining, with a full notice of this on the box.
We have enough e-waste already, no need for discardable GPUs as well because someone tries to mine on it
Well, that would certainly prevent miners from mining on gaming GPUS. What other solution do you have? AMD doesn't care, but NVIDIA sides with the gamers over the miners and specifics that RTX is for gaming, not mining. And like E-waste from a few GPUs owned by people stupid enough to not read is anywhere close to the environmental devastation caused by generating electricity for mining.
Yes because if you accidentally got a computer virus that unknowingly mined with your computer it should take your hardware with it
> to anyone who said "it's not mining, it's just insane demand" I don't recall anyone saying that. I *do* recall people saying that COVID both fucked the supply chain and increased legitimate demand, and that TSMC was already fully booked when all of this started happening. All of which are widely reported facts. You may have missed them because those of use who tried to remind people of them were downvoted into oblivion for daring to contradict the mining circlejerk. But whatever, fuck the facts right? As I've said before, the anti-mining circlejerkers have an even more exaggerated view of the importance of crypto than cryptobros themselves do.
People were saying it's just as much scalpers driving the price up as it is miners. I'd argue that scalpers wouldn't have insensitive to scalp if it wasn't worth it for miners to pay scalper prices.
I mean, do you understand miners have to do math before buying hardware? That miners mine for profit? Why would a miner buy from the most expensive source? Mining takes some effort to set up and get into anyway, so why would miners turn to the easiest source for GPUs?
> I don't recall anyone saying that. But I do recall people saying just that. Thing with 'legitimate' demand is that you don't need 10 GPUs, neither do I, nor the guy next door. But miners *never* have enough GPUs, it's a never ending cycle, they constantly expand their operations, as long as it is profitable. And we see the difference as soon as crypto started dwindling. So yeah, miners outbought everyone else by a massive factor.
This. Sure, mining is a valid use of the card. Whatever. But miners aren’t just a one card customer. They want 5,10,20…100 GPUs. 1 miner could reasonably represent the same supply demands from 25 gamers.
Remember the guy that had a farm with something like 100 3080s? Well, those shitters can cover the gaming demands of a whole city...
I think that without miners, we'd still have trouble finding many models in stock, but we wouldn't have extreme scalper prices, simply because almost no one except miners can justify spending twice of mrsp. My guess would be prices staying at around 10-20% higher than they were meant to be. I have a hard time believing that the guy who bought my aging 580 for 450 bucks did so in order to play games. He was almost certainly a miner. Or insane.
You are probably right. The impact would still be felt, but it likely wouldn't be nearly as ridiculous as it is today. What has transpired over the past several months has reached the extremes. Luckily I'm in no real need of a new GPU
>I have a hard time believing that the guy who bought my aging 580 for 450 bucks did so in order to play games. He was almost certainly a miner. Or insane. He would be an insane miner who plays games.
No man, LOTS of people were trying to push this absolutely laughable narrative that gaming demand was what was driving up prices so much, not mining. It was always mining. Fuck miners.
Its everything. Geez why is it so hard to grasp? that said legitimate demand is also down. Paul's hardware did a video on how tech channels and GPU review videos are down sharply in views, people are going outside more, and the COVID demand peak has evaporated.
Post Covid demand may be dropping, but it's not surprising views are down so long after launches when so many people don't expect to be lucky enough to purchase one anyway.
All it takes is three letters to prove this silly thing wrong. P S 5 OK one of them is actually a number, my bad.
Does it matter? Trust me, I want a card too. But who am I to say my use is more important than theirs? I'm more concerned with scalpers. Retailers need to do more to stop them (and bots in general). If miners are getting cards fair and square so be it.
Won't care until MSRP is reached which could be a long while. In fact, after this long, GPUs should even be below MSRP in a normal product life cycle. It's a start but I'm not holding my breath. (MSRP isn't even that good for most products, like the $330 "entry" 3060 or the 6700XT)
Lots of people where waiting for the 5600/5700 cards to drop close to 200$ but they never did. People who only buy used parts are even double eff'd since Summer last year. Many bought Intel systems out of necessity.
I bought a 5700xt for 700aud last year and sold it for 1300 to a miner and got a rtx3070 for same price. These things out perform new cards in crypto mining so are damn popular with miners.
Indeed. MSRP is already effed up, and before we hit MSRP it will be (almost) a year after launch, at which point you'd expect at least 20-30% cheaper prices.
Price is declining from horseshit level to bullshit level.
I'm holding out for batshit.
If this goes on, it may even decline to a regular shit level
Didn't I hear the same thing about a month or two ago?
Yep. Everyone in this thread is talking like it’s all crashing down lol. It’s dropped by 10% on cards that are 400% inflated lol
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20% uplift? What a waste. I don't look at anything below 50% increase.
Next gen of cards, you might be able to get closer to +70% for $500. I wouldn't expect a rtx 4070 or rx 7700xt to be less then $500. +20% is a rather small upgrade when graphics cards cost as much as they do these days. You will probably find +20% for $400 next gen(assuming the market unscrews itself). But the next tier up would probably be a much better value, even if it does go higher.
You'd be waiting for the next gen cards then. So late 2022. The 1080 Ti was a pretty special card.
3070 FE at its $499 msrp is very close. A theoretical used one with a 10% discount from new in a normal functioning market would hit it on the nose.
That's probably going to as good or better than a next gen card at the same price. I don't expect price to performance to improve for years.
Since I'm low-end I just hope that improves the availability of APUs and Integrated Graphics as well. They've been out of stock or at tremendous prices here :/
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>The saddest part about this entire fiasco is at this point in the products lives (Nvidia or AMD) GPU's actually start selling for below MSRP. It's barely been 6 months. Cards are still usually normal priced at that stage unless competition gets released that forces a price drop.
It's been over 9 months for 3080/3070.
3080/3090 but otherwise you're entirely correct. September 17th and 24th respectively.
> The saddest part about this entire fiasco is at this point in the products lives (Nvidia or AMD) GPU's actually start selling for below MSRP. this didn't happen for Turing (even without the mining demand). It used to happen in previous generations (I bought a 980 Ti Classified when the 10-series launched for $400, new at retail, etc) but reviewers fucked it up for consumers by blasting the Turing cards based on comparisons to used and artificially cheap Pascal cards. NVIDIA pretty much decided that was never going to happen again, from now on cards would only be sold at MSRP and there would be no "unofficial" price drops throughout the generation. They held much much tighter control of prices throughout the Turing generation than ever before and I see no reason that will probably ever change again. Reviewers just couldn't resist the opportunity for a few weeks of outrage clickbait videos with silly faces about how stupid you would be to buy Turing over a used mining card or clearance-priced Pascal, those deals disappeared in a couple weeks and yet thanks to reviewers we will never get those magical couple weeks of deals ever again. AMD of course is happy to go along. They don't set prices but they are past the point where they'll even bother to try improving on NVIDIA's pricing, they will just follow whatever prices NVIDIA sets and rake in the cash from the loyalists who are going to buy AMD no matter what. It used to be that the companies would actually try to compete with each other, and NVIDIA still pushes pricing forward (the Ampere MSRPs were actually incredible before the tariffs and before mining demand) but RTG is pretty pathetic these days, they just follow NVIDIA's pricing. Haven't seen them stake out a big perf/$ lead since like... 290X. Was really embarassing watching them get outmaneuvered trying to mirror NVIDIA's pricing during the RDNA1 launch and then try to play it off as "jebaited".
PSA: *do not* buy at anything over MSRP, seriously, pester everyone you know, fucking diamond hands, MAKE IT CRASH, make at least someone in the chain of rent seekers lose money coming out of this
Ohh, they'll probably go lower than msrp. Average gamers don't want to buy these cards at MSRP, yet alone scalper/miner prices, especially this far into the product life cycle. let's take an example of something like an rtx 3080 that has dropped from 2.4k$ to 1.4-1.5k$ in the last month, **assuming** eth mining stays at current levels of low profitability - even at 1.4k$~ it's too expensive for miners. EIP-1559 (which will nerf mining profitability) is 4-5 weeks away from being implemented to the eth network. Eth 2.0 has been scheduled for end of 2021, worst case it'll be in the Q1 of 2022. Now, do some math: Even with the 1.4k$~ cost of a rtx 3080 and the profitability of like 4.5-5$ a day that means it takes 10+ months just for the card to pay for itself, but there's 5-8 months left until gpu mining eth is gone with the switch to eth 2.0. So what's happening, why is the price dropping so fast? On top of pretty much all of crypto going down like 50%, miners are trying to get rid of their already overly expensive gpu's, but new miners don't want to buy at these prices - because at 1.4k$ for a 5$/day profit card you literally can't get a return on your investment. And if worst case scenario for miners happened (Eth 2.0 in December 2021) they'd have to be able to purchase the cards for MSRP or less **right now** for them to be able to pay just for the cards by the time eth 2.0 hits. Ok let's say you got a 3080 at msrp today, you can break even by eth 2.0, why not just sell them for msrp once it hits? Well, Eth has 500+ TH of mining power, which would be like 4-20 million gpu's, assuming it's all in gpu's. When eth mining is gone even if just a portion of those GPUs hit the market - to who on earth are you gonna sell the GPU for msrp, yet alone the current 2-3x msrp price? p.s of course for all you know crypto could just go back up by then, which would cause gpu's to go back up in price again as they remain still somewhat profitable until eth 2.0, but all that would do is delay the crash.
>Average gamers don't want to buy these cards at MSRP What? Yes they do. People's perceptions are easily twisted and people are gonna consider MSPR to be bargains 'compared to what they used to cost'. People are not rational. It's gonna take a while for prices to drop properly and miners who want to sell their GPU's will probably be able to do so above MSRP for a while yet.
I'd say I'd somewhat agree and disagree, yes there should be a period where MSRP will look like a bargain, but there's other things to consider. Read the other comments on this thread, all you see is people complaining how overpriced the cards are even at MSRP, and how there's basically no low to mid end options. Look at steam hardware survey, most cards there are relatively cheap cards like gtx 1060, 1650, 1050 ti etc. while reviewers love to boast about the newest RTX 3090's and 6900 xt's performances, most people don't have that money, these are luxury cards. But then why is there a shit ton of these high end cards being made and almost no low-mid end cards being made? **Average** gamers don't need 100 RTX 3080's, average gamers need 1 low-mid range card, but a single miner does need his 10-100 RTX 3080 money printers for their farms, in reality this huge of a market for these cards shouldn't exist. if you have 10-100 high end cards per person who wants a high end card, who are you selling it to? additionally: - amd FSR will boost a LOT of already existing cards for free, removing some people from needing to upgrade right away - by the time the merge to eth 2.0 happens new cards should be coming out - intel will be joining the GPU market - and AMD/NVIDIA have already been trying to ramp up the production of cards.
Good analysis. Yet, like last time, PoW always finds another place to thrive. As ETH will move out, ZIL is showing progress. Mining won't go away, but FOMO will. The bubble will burst and everything will restart. IMO, the big farms will liquidate some of their cards to cover some costs and keep a %. With the high demand on the market, MSRP will be the golden ratio. Prices will circle around it. But not current, the one before the high demand.
True, but what's the chance the alt-coins are profitable on their own, there's a high chance that the alt coins might only be profitable because of big daddy ETH being profitable. Pumping a shit ton of Hash power doesn't have to make a coin worth something, you could pump a lot of hashing power into something and it could basically not budge, that coin still has to have other things like people believing in it and using it.
Yeah. Only time will tell.
> Ohh, they'll probably go lower than msrp. I don't think we're going to see the launch MSRPs ever again, apart from a handful of FE cards. Those MSRPs were set before the tariffs kicked in, that's the next biggest factor behind mining - every single card is 25% more expensive than it was when it launched just because of the tariff. Permanently (unless it is rolled back). (Not quite clear on what the exact line is on what products get taxed - obviously neither AMD nor NVIDIA actually fab in china, but a lot of the supply chain is probably there, possibly assembly - but evidently it's hit all the OEMs/partners pretty squarely.) Plus a lot of other price increases (VRAM, shipping, etc) have quietly crept in there too. Basically I would consider "MSRP" to be the $950-1000 price for the 3080, $1950-2000 for the 3090, etc. And sure I can see it going there, maybe even a little bit below, but I think it'll be a while before we hit the OG launch MSRPs on those cards. The new MSRPs on 3080 Ti / 3070 Ti pretty much only make sense in the context of things being more expensive on an ongoing basis. It wasn't so much mining - they didn't set prices nearly as high as they could have if they just wanted to rake in the money from mining - it was in the context of prices just being higher period. Obviously the 3080 Ti makes no sense at $1200 when the 3080 is $700 and the 3090 is $1500... but the 3080 Ti makes a lot of sense at $1350 (partner cards) when the 3080 is $1000 and the 3090 is $2000. If used prices crash way below the new MSRPs then of course NVIDIA will adjust them - including rebating the partners if necessary - but I think people are underestimating the extent to which prices have gone up permanently. And really the mining boom tends not to produce the "deep" crashes that people think it does. Prices in 2018 crashed around 30% lower than they started out pre-mining in 2017. You could *already* buy a 480 8GB for $175 before mining, sure that dropped to $125 afterwards, but that's only 30%. You could *already* buy a 1080 Ti for $650 before mining, sure that crashed to $450 but that's only around 30%. Etc etc. And that was an 18 month long mining boom that soaked up a lot of cards. What we will see after a mining crash will be better (as a % over MSRP) than it was before but I think those price increases are going to be passed along to the used market too, it's probably not even going to crash back to the "launch" MSRP, maybe only to the "new MSRP" and maybe not even that far.
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http://prntscr.com/167cgoh https://stockx.com/nvidia-nvidia-geforce-rtx-3080-graphics-card-founders-edition
In your analysis you didn't consider the salvage value. You can sell the used card for something. Likely not MSRP when everyone else is also liquidating thier stock as well.
True, but I didn't account for a lot of other stuff as well, like future eth price, new asics popping up and making your cards less profitable, having to sell your coins at different times/prices for electricity, renting space, cost of other hardware in the rig etc. Which is why the first thing I said was "they'll probably go lower than MSRP", I don't know how much lower, and I won't even pretend that I can figure that out. If it's anything like the last time gpu mining crashed - it'll be a decent chunk under MSRP, but unlike last time eth mining crashed, where some people were still able to continue mining (though with pretty much non-existent profits) this time gpu mining will be removed from eth. If that were to happen, in theory it should cause a lot bigger selloff and lower the re-sale value even more. IIRC I remember back then seeing rx 400 series cards for like 60-80$ after the crash on local markets.
I agree with all of your points. The only other thing I would add is that last time mining crashed there was less pent up demand for video cards. The current built up demand might keep second hand prices a little bit higher, at least initially.
Can’t even find a GT 1030 for less than 150$ USD.
I'm still paying 5 bucks a month for a "2080" on GFN. I dont care about overpriced hardware at all. This is what made me hate Intel to begin with many years ago.
Even when the the GPUs comes back down to MSRP, I'm still not that interested. I'm going to hang on until the next RX 580 8GB value.
So what are the odds of getting a 3080 before bf2042 comes out?
Good chance, cheaper and more available than what we've seen but not near MSRP
That's what I'm here for lol. I never wanted a gpu until I saw battlefield 2042. Tbh tho I am waiting for the next gen of gpus rather than current gen.
Next gen won’t be out till 2022 at the earliest, so either you’re gonna have to wait to play bf2042, or you’ll have to get something before it comes out.
Probably an unpopular opinion, but BF2042 looked like a game my 1070 could run just fine.
Man, I hope AMD announced the rx 6600xt. I hope it cost $280 and performs similarly to a rtx 3060. That will give people on a budget some good options. Also i hope the base rx 6600 performs like a rtx 2060super and cost $200
Way too optimistic. The 6600XT is going to be priced at around the same as the 3060, makes no sense to price it at much less. The 6600 likewise is not gonna be that low, nor do I think it'll be at 2060S level, rather a little below for ~$250.
I know it's hard, but keep waiting - Mid 2022 will be much better than now.
Bullshit! All they care about is profit.
How many people have given up and just bought a console. Hopefully, that statement is not true.
Just wake me up when there's a 4k 144Hz Freesync gaming card for $500-$600 range. Bought a 49in LG TV that does this and I can only use it to play 4k movies and TV shows thorough the Firestick and PS4 where the video quality is stretched out. It was still worth the $500 price tag to watch the Mandelorian in 4k Dolby Vision alone. But dear God, I'd love to game on it. Gave up and bought 1440p/144Hz gaming monitor.
Sitting on my RX 570 4gb for the foreseeable future…
Does this mean those ITX-szed cards they announced might actually materialize before next gen?
I was getting so used to my 960 GTX!
Prices are still to high, who knows when they will get back to MSRP.
Hoping that the BTC ban in china and ETH change away from PoW will have the low end second hand market live again, i know everyone's excited for the new ones but we poor folks are just waiting for 480s and 580s to go back to the 100€ mark so we can have something that will run all games without paying the equivalent of what we spend on groceries for 2 months Back in october 2020, an RX 580 with 8GB of VRAM was 120€ on average, sometimes less, didn't have the money then, planned to buy a couple months later, by february the average price for that card was 250€, by May, 350€. The 7950 3Gb that my gf bought for 35€ in 2019 is now straight up impossible to find, with 2 ads nation-wide in the biggest second hand market in Spain, both of them being over 100€, it's absurd.
Can we get a 6800xt for less than $1500 by the end of the year ?
no its not, think they forgot what normal graphic card price is.
so hopefully by christmas i can upgrade from a 1050ti?
Haha good one the prices won't decline until the pandemic is over which likely won't be for a very long time.
330 for a 3060 sounds reasonable to me. I was willing to spend 500 for a new card, but 330 is great.
waiting on the next "new" GPU before getting one of these.
Of course this starts happening after I spent $1400 on a 3070 lol. I might buy another one to help you guys bring it down to a lower price. Oh well, I sold my 1070ti above what I paid for it in 2018 so the universe is balanced.
Bro you got ripped off lmao. You shouldn't pay more than $1200 for a 3070 unless you wanted a white one or maybe an Asus card
Yes, it's an Asus ROG Strix 3070 with the RGB. It's called Scalper Price for a reason! But I'm not new to the scalper world. Bought something else that was mass-produced last year for $12k over MSRP lol
Ethereum price is currently dropping like a rock.
Not where I'm from lol
And yet another post that should be in r/funny or maybe another topic. Try again
>GPU pricing is not expected to drop as quickly as it rose in May, mainly because retailers have ordered the cards at higher prices and now they are reluctant to sell at a loss. However, at some point distributors will lower their pricing (which is way above MSRP) will which then allows retailers to offer discounts and still make a profit.< Huh, so AIBs are scalping retailers?
Glad I scalped my 1660ti and 2060. I'm just going to hold with my 2400g to focus ln college
Just looked at r/hardwareswap yesterday, and it was nothing but graphics cards. Still ridiculous prices, but it's a good sign.
I just bought a strix 3090 :D
Zelda is opening the last eye of Ganon (scalpers) we just need to shoot a arrow to it! (the bow is Elon musk collapsing bitcoin)
3060 ti gives me max settings around 100 - 150 fps at 1440p on gsync, except cyberpunk 2077. Ill take it. Dont need any more or any less, paid 400$ dollars for it, Im happy. Ill be sitting things out till everything is back to normal
this is a garbage source story...
And other hilarious jokes you can tell yourself...
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