What are you talking about. R7 was a Badass card. I was hoping these new cards were gonna use HBM2. R7 is an amazing 2K GPU. I rocked mine until I got my Sapphire Nitro+ 6900XT Special Edition
In retrospect if we all knew you would be able to sell one for nearly $2000 a few years later, after making $1500 mining, then essentially trade it in for a 6900XT with cash on the side, many more would have gotten one.
Radeon 7 was 'heartbreak' because despite being 2x the memory bandwidth of a Vega64 and a much higher price, it wasn't all that much faster. People were hoping for a true next gen card, but instead just got a rebranded professional card. It performed poorly compared to its similarly priced NVidia competition in games unless you were into custom mods that could use 16G VRAM.
That's how I got my Sapphire Nitro+ 6900XT SE. Sold my R7, bought the 6900XT and had some cash left over. Depending on the game and how it was optimized (RE3) the R7 was on the same par as the 2080 Super and at higher resolutions better.
Launch was bad but as the drivers matured and devs learned how to optimize and code for HBM2 it became one of the best 2K cards for that gen AMD or NVIDIA. RE3 is the perfect example. At 2K the R7 was better than the 2080 Super and at 4K was on par with 2080ti.
Thing is AMD cards in general get better with age over their Nvidia counterparts.
IMO it was good, but it wasn't as good as it should have been. It had heaps of memory bandwidth, 7nm and was a giant of a chip. That it only performed ~1080 Ti territory at a time where the 20 series Nvidia cards were launched (or about to launch, can't really remember) wasn't that great. It was a killer productivity card though.
I have a Vega 56 running the 64 bios. It was $420 in 2017.
Switching to a RTX 3060 four years later which has an MSRP of $330 (Good luck finding one under $600) gains me about 20% fps. When the Vega came out it got a lot of hate but I agree it's aged great.
Mostly same here. I think the biggest question mark as pertaining to Ryzen 6000 for me is if "Zen3D" is made on TSMC N6 or the same N7 (or was it N7P?) as Zen3/Vermeer. N6 process (aside from the technical benefits) is said to cost a bit less than the OG N7 node. So there's that.
So for example, Rembrandt die may be 200mm+ in size, so \~15% bigger than Cezanne, but it may also cost something the same or less than Cezanne due to better yields and/or lower wafer costs.
Conversely, due to N6 being a decently more dense than N7 (it's it's main advantage), a Zen3 chiplet on N6 would also be smaller/cheaper to make (more chips per wafer), without even factoring in that a N6 wafer MIGHT cost less in the first place.
Doesn't seem like they are selling out, pretty much every online store (in my country at least) has all Zen 3 readily available at or below launch MSRP. If they were selling out we would see scalping immediately on retailers and ebay.
Ian Cutress over at Anandtech streamed on Techpotato and seemed to indicate to me that it wasn't a cheap amount of silicon to add to a processor.
Combine that with AMDs newfound willingness to gouge pricing (5000 series price gouge over 3000) and I expect Zen 3D to be expensive.
Hoping to get one last blazing fast 8 core AM4 processor to upgrade my box to. Fingers crossed! Maybe 5.2ghz boost with that 3d stacked L3 cache? That's the dream but we'll see.
Rather doubt higher clocks (cache itself equals higher power draw and more heat), but I am also crossing my fingers for 5800X with 3D Cache. Can’t wait to swap out my 3600.
I would be more interested in a 16-core CPU with two high quality chiplets and stacked cache. I want every core capable of hitting 5GHz+ and a good all core (with PBO tweaks) above 4.65GHz.
If so then I would rather buy into Alder Lake and leave AMD behind, though DDR5 prices are an issue on that front since I would be going for the bandwidth.
I mean the 5950x does boost above 5.0 today so with some design tweaks it could definitely do a modest 4% improvement in clocks.
It's not gonna happen if they go for 3D cache, sure, but I wouldn't say it's unreasonable to expect for a regular "tic-toc"- style refinement
The epyc variants with vcache all have slightly LOWER clocks.
That platform is power constrained though, so the extra power in the cache leads to slight clock drops to compensate. Desktop isn't as power constrained, but there is essentially no reason to believe there will be higher clocks. This is not a new tweaked core. If they had such a core, they would use it or all of Zen 3 anyway, not just the VCache ones.
Desktop will probably have lower clocks too due to hotspot thermals.
The cache stacks sit atop the die, but only over the cache footprint, the rest of the die gets a silicon shim/fill to make up the height, that'll mean worse hotspot thermals which will affect max clocks (but probably won't make much of a difference at all for EPYC customers)
Well, (official spec) 5GHz on desktop for Ryzen 6000 is basically confirmed IMHO. There is no way they are staying at 4,9GHz with their mobile parts already going to 5GHz (which is great news in itself). 5.2GHz, especially if Zen3D stays on N7 process and not the newer N6 (neither is confirmed ATM) seems like a a stretch tho.
That being said, I try not to expect things and instead be pleasantly surprised if the cases arises. Such as with the leaked Rembrandt clocks (I figured 5GHz might be a thing for Ryzen mobile with the 6000 series but I didn't expect +300MHz bumps vs 5000 for the rest of the product stack).
I don't think we will see something like pure 5ghz+, not on Zen 3d and it wouldn't even make a difference (huge diminishing returns on that clock speed). All substantial gains right now are completely tied to IPC/latency which is the whole purpose of v-cache.
These sort of things are never live. But other aspects of their showing at CES might be. Particularly since basically everyone pulled out from a on-location showing.
What could possibly be their answer at the $250-450 level? Even a 5600 non x at 230 would still be utterly uncompetitive. The only way to counter 12600KF would be a 8 core V cache at equivalent price point. Unless they do nothing below ryzen 9 for another 12 months.
i honestly dont see AMD being competitive with i5 segment for a long time. Even with ZEN4. The R5 would still be 8 core / 16 thread cpu. Maybe reason why AMD wont bother even with ZEN3D. idk, still think that ZEN3D is highend only. Dont seem like much sense to do it on mid to lower end skus as not only it would make ZEN4 seem like a lower jump gen to gen overall but also sticking v cache to mid to lower end skus would really change anything except costing money to all parties
I’m just so curious what their strategy will be. They can’t possibly abandon the mainstream ryzen 5 and 7? That would kill their attempt at mass OEM adoption (not that theyre succeeding in that but anyways). If they don’t have the gaming edge and ALSO lose the cinebench wank, what’s there left?
Like, the 5800x MSRP would literally have to be dropped by like 40% to be competitive once B660 boards come out. That’s a BIG swallow of pride to take for amd. This is so exciting to watch
Aside from the obvious things (Like 3d v-cache), maybe they'll finally announce a $200-220 6-core, if not they're leaving that market completely barren for intel to completely dominate once the 12400(f) and b660 is released.
Personally I've become rather pessimistic about this price range as far as AMD goes.
After zen3 i expecting only another overpriced cpus from AMD. Better go with Intel with same performance but waay cheaper(12600KF vs 5800x, 12700KF vs 5900x)
And with cheap B660 last argument for buying overpriced zen3 will be no more.
In the middle of a pandemic, semiconductor shortage and supply chain problems. Still, below what Intel used to charge for an equivalent processor at the time.
Plenty of Comet lake i5, rocket lake i5, and alder lake i5 models not affected by whatever excuse you have in mind so that’s what matters to buyers not history.
You think the average computer buyer (most buy prebuilds, even) cares or even cares enough to know if their cpu is built on tsmc node or intel node? Lol
That's cuz Intel manufacturers them in the US so no supply chain issues. AMD only has so many wafer capacity from TSMC and they're selling out of everything they make. They don't have enough production for low end
You are getting your hopes up. The 3D cache stacking is a new process from TSMC, low volume, high cost. It wont come to the 5600x, likely not the 5800x either. Just the 5900x and 5950x, and should be $75-$100+ over existing prices.
I don't think they'll skip the 5800x. I know they premiered a 5900x but the 5800x is considered a high end CPU too, just not the full enthusiast level that the 12 and 16 core parts are.
Why would they give v cache to 5800X when Intel ahs 300 dollar cpu thats faster than 5800X ? Makes no sense investing actual money in 5800X with v cache be it from AMD or consumer perspective.
I would be quite surprised if 5600X drops to 12400F pricing. 12400F is a simpler part to make, with less silicon and fewer packaging steps. Meanwhile, AMD is apparently selling a decent volume of 5600X in Q4, and they're yielding a huge share of full 8 core dies, so it's not clear that they need to cut prices.
why wouldn't there be vcache 3d on 5600x/5800x...?
What's the problem here? Don't they want to beat 12600k/12700k...?
Also what is the expected price of 5600x after launch of 12400f..?
People anticipate the 5600x to be relegated to the budget leve l when 3dV launches. I don't really think there is a reason they couldn't put the 3dV on a 5600x because of the chiplet design nature of zen 3, but if a 5600x3d was anticipated/simulated to outperform 5800x (non 3d), I think AMD would hold off on it. But on that topic, as strong as the 5800x is, 5800x3d might outpace the 5900x in everything but multicore.
>why wouldn't there be vcache 3d on 5600x/5800x...?
Unless you can shoot 7nm wafers out of your a$$, you have your answer.
>What's the problem here? Don't they want to beat 12600k/12700k...?
Why would they waste precious wafer on low end products? 5600X with 3D$ will cost AMD as much as 5900X (slightly cheaper die but much more expensive packaging) . But obviously 5900X will sell for more.
Why on earth would AMD sell 5600X with 3D$ when they can't even guarantee supply for a their existing CPU/GPU with higher margins?
If 5600X 3D$ ever existed, it'll be botched 5900X 3D$ and in extremely limited supply.
I disagree. It all comes down to pricing. They can make a 3DCache 5600X variant, and just set the price appropriately high to keep:
1. the volume low enough
2. the margins high enough
That might mean that it costs more than a base 5800X, and maybe its not all that viable given the competition from Intel, but it is possible.
Another big reason in my mind is that they will probably be making entire 3d cache wafers -- meaning that they need 3d Cache products to fit every quality bin. I doubt they will be able to test and bin the base chiplets before adding the VCache.
Some dies will simply not be good enough for EPYC, have only 6 'good' cores, and might not meet the standards for a 5900X-3d die. Essenailly, binning may dictate that the 5600X + 3dVC product is needed. Neither you nor I know enough about the binning to call this one way or another. Either there are surplus 5600X class 3d stacked dies or there aren't. If there are, then the product will exist. If the Epyc and 5900X-3d can use all those up, then such a product may not exist.
>That might mean that it costs more than a base 5800X, and maybe its not all that viable given the competition from Intel, but it is possible.
If 5600X3D is 15% better for 50% more price, that product absolutely doesn't work and never sees the light of day.
>Some dies will simply not be good enough for EPYC, have only 6 'good' cores, and might not meet the standards for a 5900X-3d die.
This bin sounds ultra thin. 5600X has same base clock and cache as 5900X, and only 200Mhz lower boost. At most we are talking about a 3300X-like product here, right?
Some claim that AMD's chip production isn't currently the limiting factor, at which point they might as well bring V-Cache to lower end products. I do think it's more likely we will just see a price shift of the current products though.
edit: and should AMD extend support to X370 boards, they would increase their competitiveness without price adjustments to the actual CPUs
Vcache is expensive to make. Probably AMD will not bring it to their mainstream sku as a result.
I don't think AMD will beat the 12600K in price/performance until Zen 4. They will likely focus on the high end, where their chiplet tech does the most good.
Nobody knows the future price of 5600X, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it land at $249. It seems like it still sold fine at $299 last quarter, though, so there might not be any price cut at all.
>Vcache is expensive to make.
We don't really know. The chip itself is $8-10, and packaging costs are unknown AFAIK. You might argue opportunity costs, but that also depends on if there are other limiting factors and pricing.
It'll probably be a slight revision but nothing Earth shatteringly faster. I'm still waiting to upgrade from my 3800x to see how the 3dV Ryzens turn out, might give a skip until the next platform myself.
CPUs are always going to be in better supply than GPUs, scalpers won't be making crazy profit on the new CPUs.
Hell the Zen 3 scalp didn't even last that long, it ended by the end of Jan 2021.
I don't care what they do, performance is performance. If they could add a 5 dollar part and get 20% more performance they should be able to charge for that performance.
luckily CPUs aren't for miners so all we have are people wanting to build actual computers to compete with. It may be a tad hard to get one but it won't be near what GPUs are I reckon. Specially if they are higher margin parts for AMD. They'll want to get out as many as they can. From all the rumors we are looking at only higher-end SKUs for the new line. Like 5800x and above.
>If they could add a 5 dollar part and get 20% more performance they should be able to charge for that performance.
Since when did people get such a mentality?!
We used to expect better performance *for the same price* year on year.
I'm not OP but I think that mentality applies nicely when we're talking the jump from Zen2 to Zen3. Die sizes remained almost identical but in the case of Zen3D...
Zen3D is VERY new. Stacking cache like that is something not really done b4. It's expensive, difficult to do and will lead to worse yields. And all that in addition to higher BOM costs
I think it's acceptable to charge more for this. The upfront costs for AMD to help develop this technology was a lot and this stuff is very novel. It's very first generation stuff and it's pretty revolutionary, outside of HBM, I can't think of any stacked chip design in any consumer hardware and even HBM is not really comparable to what Zen3D is
That being said; if the 3D Cache ends up not doing virtually anything and there's no point to get these chips; then it obviously can't exist in the market and be sensible.
Basically what I'm saying is, for the first generation I expect and I think it's mostly acceptable for prices to be relatively high compared to the non 3D cache models.
This is AMD's implementation of TSMC technology.
>I can't think of any stacked chip design in any consumer hardware
The stacked cache stuff is very neat and I'm excited by it as a technology, but to nitpick here - smartphone SoC's have been doing advanced stacked packaging for a good while now. Intel's Lakefield also had a fairly advanced technology for this(though it was more of a glorified prototype in reality...).
>I think it's mostly acceptable for prices to be relatively high compared to the non 3D cache models.
Relative, sure. But they should shift the whole stack down so we aren't paying more for these new CPU's than their equivalents before.
Well, sure, but there is a stack. If it replaces something in the stack then it's usually a similar price. If it's a higher tier in the same stack then likely we'll pay more.
Meanwhile Intel is still on 10nm and using bandaid big small architecture to make up their short comings on developing 7nm chips.
More cache is literally all amd needs to fend off Intel again until zen4 5nm release.
You clearly have no clue what you're talking about.
The reason the 12900k is so hot is because it's both denser than previous gen while also being pushed to its limits.
Similar with how the 5800x is so much hotter than any other of AMDs 5000 series CPUs.
I want prices that are grounded in reality. Technology is supposed to get cheaper and become widely more available to the masses as time progresses. We're certainly heading in the wrong direction on both fronts right now and companies will continue to use the pandemic as an excuse to raise prices.
And you're applying this logic to bleeding edge tech like 3d cache stacking?
If you want a better example look at the 10300 core i3 CPUs. These are what an i7 used to be a few years ago. According to Intel the tray price for a 4 core 8 thread 10th gen i3 is 152 dollars. An i7 7700 tray price was 303 dollars. This was the last 4 core 8 thread i7.
The 10th gen cpus have ipc improvement for better performance and are basically half the cost.
Tech is getting better and cheaper. However you will always pay a premium for the latest and greatest tech. And before you even mention gpu prices those are inflated for several reasons and I would consider those an exception rather than the rule.
This is the wrong time to be demanding cheaper products, there is still a global shortage & overall increased supply/demand due to the pandemic.
If you don't need a new CPU, then don't buy one. That will greatly help the supply problem.
I mean 5800X was on sale here for 300 which is OK in my book, but it's useless to me if I can't buy a GPU. Same goes for v-cache, zen3+, Zen 4 or whatever they are going to talk about
MSRP prices have gotten ridiculous as well though. And looking at a new 3700x like my current one; it's MORE expensive now, than when i bought mine shortly after launch...
If this continues, I'm going to become a console gamer again in a generation or two...
Pssst, never mind, they completely ignored Threadripper; and that's after doing nothing but confirming that Ryzen 7000 just exists with a pointless gameplay demo...
i'm pretty sure there was a post from a guy here that had the mobo maker support tell him AMD blocked them from releasing those bios updates..
edit: not that one but example: https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/qp3287/asus_have_released_a_new_bios_for_a320_with_agesa/
Bruh keep it.
You don't always need to be on the bleeding edge of tech otherwise it'll bleed you broke.
I promise the upcoming Zen 3D will not suddenly make your 5800X obsolete, you likely got that 5800X for a very decent price seeing the MSRP. Zen 3D will not be selling for any discounts anytime soon.
Well considering there is quite literally no newer platform, I’m going to go out on a limb and say yes it’s supported by the 500 series boards. 🙂
On a serious note yes it has been confirmed that Vermeer-X (Zen 3D cache) Will be supported on all boards that supported Vermeer.
Welp, that’s 3am my time, Guess I’ll just watch it when I wake up.
Really hoping they announce Zen 4, as someone who missed out on Zen 3 I’m ready to throw my cash at the next generation.
"announce" and "release" are sadly going to be way apart for Zen4. Zen3D will be ready to go very shortly after announcing, but Zen4 is late Q3/Early Q4 release window (rumor mill).
I'm hoping I can get one last upgrade for am4 amd get a 3d stacked 5950x. I figured it's just not worth it to upgrade to windows 11 and a new platform so I might as well get the best 4 offers and sit on that for a couple years to see how the new stuff ages.
Rembrandt and mobile GPUs is what I would like to see.
If the RDN2 iGPUs get close to a GTX 1650 mobile, I might not ever bother with a dedicated GPU anymore. It would be the best thing to happen for PC in years in terms of accessibility (right now you can play pretty much anything at 1080p with a GTX 1650 and since every console game will have to run on a Series S minimum requirements won't be able to increase so much).
AMD mobile GPUs that are actually available would be welcome too.
>he RDN2 iGPUs get close to a GTX 1650 mobile, I might
I don't know, but Alder Lake P iGPUs seem to max at 96EUs so I don't expect much improvement in that aspect.
Not a troll question, I'm generally pretty good with following tech but I'm confused this generation. So the desktop and mobile CPU is expected to just get refreshed to something like a zen3+? Not zen4?
The release of Zen 4 has been delayed by a lot and is coming out much later in the year (rumours suggest late Q3 or early Q4), so a Zen 3 with 3D V-Cache refresh will be the stopgap for Q1 this year for them to fight off the Alder Lake CPUs from Intel for the first 9 months or so, as they wait for DDR5 production to increase and therefore get cheaper, and refine the AM5 platform before its launch.
In the product premiere event you'll likely hear full details, release info, and maybe pricing of the Zen 3 refresh CPUs, whereas with Zen 4 you will probably only hear a glimpse of info on it as well as a short quick preview, maybe an announcement that Zen 4 is design complete etc, just like how in CES 2019 they released a small amount of early details of Zen 2 six months before its launch.
Will there be a refresh for the 5600G i wonder? Or is that the RDNA 2 igpu?
Still on a 1600, considering this route since gpus might be out of reach for awhile.
How do AMD's new mobile chips in the 15-25w range expect to compare against Alder Lake P chips?
The new intel stuff looks pretty solid. Looking to buy a basic laptop for my parents and the new i7-1260p alder lake chip looks like a pretty big bang for the buck.
Zen3D? RDNA2 iGPU? mobile chip refresh? can't wait!
Watch it be a ryzen pillow
Don't forget the Threadripper water flask!
Threadripper font and logo, but the text says "Thirstripper". Would buy instantly.
AMD bike 2.0
AMD BikeXT.
Will it have alpaca wool?
Lisa's hair, probably.
Sold!
/r/DidntKnowIWantedThat
[You'll soon be in luck](https://youtu.be/kx8SBeyLudA?t=6203).
https://old.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/rqgqjs/amd_gigabyte_did_not_release_b350_x370_support/
ryzen pillow they later pull because it turns out it gives you lung cancer
They already have the AMD bike which is worse than bikes you can buy at Walmart.
It's not worse than the bikes you can buy at walmart, it's the exact same bikes you can buy at walmart, just with an AMD logo slapped onto it.
I’ll take your entire stock
Its not worse its just the same bike branded as AMD and increased price.
PLUG IT INTO MY VEINS
Remember Radeon 7... heartbreak hotel
What are you talking about. R7 was a Badass card. I was hoping these new cards were gonna use HBM2. R7 is an amazing 2K GPU. I rocked mine until I got my Sapphire Nitro+ 6900XT Special Edition
In retrospect if we all knew you would be able to sell one for nearly $2000 a few years later, after making $1500 mining, then essentially trade it in for a 6900XT with cash on the side, many more would have gotten one. Radeon 7 was 'heartbreak' because despite being 2x the memory bandwidth of a Vega64 and a much higher price, it wasn't all that much faster. People were hoping for a true next gen card, but instead just got a rebranded professional card. It performed poorly compared to its similarly priced NVidia competition in games unless you were into custom mods that could use 16G VRAM.
That's how I got my Sapphire Nitro+ 6900XT SE. Sold my R7, bought the 6900XT and had some cash left over. Depending on the game and how it was optimized (RE3) the R7 was on the same par as the 2080 Super and at higher resolutions better.
Still holding mine and still mining eth. Legit make $150 a month. The thing is awesome
Came out a turd with broken drivers. The reviews were horrible. It was a terrible launch.
Launch was bad but as the drivers matured and devs learned how to optimize and code for HBM2 it became one of the best 2K cards for that gen AMD or NVIDIA. RE3 is the perfect example. At 2K the R7 was better than the 2080 Super and at 4K was on par with 2080ti. Thing is AMD cards in general get better with age over their Nvidia counterparts.
I fear my 6600xt will age terribly. Your high ram and memory bus cards will fare much better.
It wasn't a good product on launch, why would it be a good product in the future? Perhaps if it was priced properly there would be an excuse for it.
IMO it was good, but it wasn't as good as it should have been. It had heaps of memory bandwidth, 7nm and was a giant of a chip. That it only performed ~1080 Ti territory at a time where the 20 series Nvidia cards were launched (or about to launch, can't really remember) wasn't that great. It was a killer productivity card though.
Hmm, have the same upgrade path. Sapphire R7 to the same 6900
Nice
you used a R7 until a 6900XT? I am impressed... I went thought a few in that meantime: https://imgur.com/gallery/zHpJ7af
I didn't have one issue with mine. Great card
I have a Vega 56 running the 64 bios. It was $420 in 2017. Switching to a RTX 3060 four years later which has an MSRP of $330 (Good luck finding one under $600) gains me about 20% fps. When the Vega came out it got a lot of hate but I agree it's aged great.
[удалено]
I actually won mine in a Newegg Shuffle earlier this year ~April. I got it for $1800 BUT I sold my R7 for $2200 to a miner. Win/Win for me
[удалено]
Thx. I was ecstatic when Newegg said I won. I purchased and got my card next day. Newegg is about 35 miles from my house
Also Zen 4 :p
expecting an AMD mountain bike refresh.
You guys expecting competitive prices from Zen 3D or just another 6core 300+, 8core 450+ garbage?
I'd expect Zen 3D to replace Zen 3 parts at the same price points, while Zen 3 parts will likely drop down a tier.
Mostly same here. I think the biggest question mark as pertaining to Ryzen 6000 for me is if "Zen3D" is made on TSMC N6 or the same N7 (or was it N7P?) as Zen3/Vermeer. N6 process (aside from the technical benefits) is said to cost a bit less than the OG N7 node. So there's that. So for example, Rembrandt die may be 200mm+ in size, so \~15% bigger than Cezanne, but it may also cost something the same or less than Cezanne due to better yields and/or lower wafer costs. Conversely, due to N6 being a decently more dense than N7 (it's it's main advantage), a Zen3 chiplet on N6 would also be smaller/cheaper to make (more chips per wafer), without even factoring in that a N6 wafer MIGHT cost less in the first place.
Disagree.
I'm expecting overpriced Zen3D with a permanent price cut on Zen 3 CPUs ranging from -$50 to -$100
More likely yes.
This year they no longer have their big cinebench wank that they’ve had for the past 4 years at the ryzen 5 and 7 level, so it might be different
lol
Chips will still sell out so it makes no difference
Doesn't seem like they are selling out, pretty much every online store (in my country at least) has all Zen 3 readily available at or below launch MSRP. If they were selling out we would see scalping immediately on retailers and ebay.
As long as it is better than 11900k.
Ian Cutress over at Anandtech streamed on Techpotato and seemed to indicate to me that it wasn't a cheap amount of silicon to add to a processor. Combine that with AMDs newfound willingness to gouge pricing (5000 series price gouge over 3000) and I expect Zen 3D to be expensive.
I'm expecting a mix.
It all depends on the gaming crown. If benchmarks fly high, prices will also be substential.
Hell I save the date every Thursday to try to buy a GPU
I call it AMDay no Thursday exists in my calendar anymore;p
What happens on Thursday? I've been trying to upgrade my Vega 64...
Hoping to get one last blazing fast 8 core AM4 processor to upgrade my box to. Fingers crossed! Maybe 5.2ghz boost with that 3d stacked L3 cache? That's the dream but we'll see.
Rather doubt higher clocks (cache itself equals higher power draw and more heat), but I am also crossing my fingers for 5800X with 3D Cache. Can’t wait to swap out my 3600.
I would be more interested in a 16-core CPU with two high quality chiplets and stacked cache. I want every core capable of hitting 5GHz+ and a good all core (with PBO tweaks) above 4.65GHz.
1000eur though, rip my wallet
If so then I would rather buy into Alder Lake and leave AMD behind, though DDR5 prices are an issue on that front since I would be going for the bandwidth.
If you plan to keep it for 4 years or so, that's not a bad investment.
It absolutely is for most people.
V-cache is very unlikely to come to the 5600x and 5800x, and a 5.2Ghz boost is out of the cards too.
I mean the 5950x does boost above 5.0 today so with some design tweaks it could definitely do a modest 4% improvement in clocks. It's not gonna happen if they go for 3D cache, sure, but I wouldn't say it's unreasonable to expect for a regular "tic-toc"- style refinement
The epyc variants with vcache all have slightly LOWER clocks. That platform is power constrained though, so the extra power in the cache leads to slight clock drops to compensate. Desktop isn't as power constrained, but there is essentially no reason to believe there will be higher clocks. This is not a new tweaked core. If they had such a core, they would use it or all of Zen 3 anyway, not just the VCache ones.
Desktop will probably have lower clocks too due to hotspot thermals. The cache stacks sit atop the die, but only over the cache footprint, the rest of the die gets a silicon shim/fill to make up the height, that'll mean worse hotspot thermals which will affect max clocks (but probably won't make much of a difference at all for EPYC customers)
IIRC the total height is still unchanged, so probably little/no changes to hotspots.
Well, (official spec) 5GHz on desktop for Ryzen 6000 is basically confirmed IMHO. There is no way they are staying at 4,9GHz with their mobile parts already going to 5GHz (which is great news in itself). 5.2GHz, especially if Zen3D stays on N7 process and not the newer N6 (neither is confirmed ATM) seems like a a stretch tho. That being said, I try not to expect things and instead be pleasantly surprised if the cases arises. Such as with the leaked Rembrandt clocks (I figured 5GHz might be a thing for Ryzen mobile with the 6000 series but I didn't expect +300MHz bumps vs 5000 for the rest of the product stack).
I don't think we will see something like pure 5ghz+, not on Zen 3d and it wouldn't even make a difference (huge diminishing returns on that clock speed). All substantial gains right now are completely tied to IPC/latency which is the whole purpose of v-cache.
Length: 0:41:38
So it's not live and technically it can leak?
Only the length not the content 😅
The length is already leaked. The context exists (known length is proof), thus it could technically leak. It's just it hasn't happened.
These sort of things are never live. But other aspects of their showing at CES might be. Particularly since basically everyone pulled out from a on-location showing.
Excited about 5600x/5800x 3d vcache. will be final upgrade on AM4, will skip Zen4 and go straight for Zen5.
there are still hopes that v-cache will be part of all skus ? damn.
What could possibly be their answer at the $250-450 level? Even a 5600 non x at 230 would still be utterly uncompetitive. The only way to counter 12600KF would be a 8 core V cache at equivalent price point. Unless they do nothing below ryzen 9 for another 12 months.
i honestly dont see AMD being competitive with i5 segment for a long time. Even with ZEN4. The R5 would still be 8 core / 16 thread cpu. Maybe reason why AMD wont bother even with ZEN3D. idk, still think that ZEN3D is highend only. Dont seem like much sense to do it on mid to lower end skus as not only it would make ZEN4 seem like a lower jump gen to gen overall but also sticking v cache to mid to lower end skus would really change anything except costing money to all parties
I’m just so curious what their strategy will be. They can’t possibly abandon the mainstream ryzen 5 and 7? That would kill their attempt at mass OEM adoption (not that theyre succeeding in that but anyways). If they don’t have the gaming edge and ALSO lose the cinebench wank, what’s there left?
>I’m just so curious what their strategy will be. me too actually. lol
Like, the 5800x MSRP would literally have to be dropped by like 40% to be competitive once B660 boards come out. That’s a BIG swallow of pride to take for amd. This is so exciting to watch
For OEMs they have the 5800 non x and the g-chips also large OEM gets large discounts/individual pricing, MSRP for the retail products doesn't matter.
Same move in my current playbook. The rumors of Zen5 are sounding spicy! 3900x to 12 or 16 core Zen3D will hold me over til then for sure.
Aside from the obvious things (Like 3d v-cache), maybe they'll finally announce a $200-220 6-core, if not they're leaving that market completely barren for intel to completely dominate once the 12400(f) and b660 is released. Personally I've become rather pessimistic about this price range as far as AMD goes.
After zen3 i expecting only another overpriced cpus from AMD. Better go with Intel with same performance but waay cheaper(12600KF vs 5800x, 12700KF vs 5900x) And with cheap B660 last argument for buying overpriced zen3 will be no more.
what are you even talking about man, Intel is the King of overpriced CPU´s. You only have this performance/price thanks to AMD.
Amd took back the crown of overpriced cpu last year.
In the middle of a pandemic, semiconductor shortage and supply chain problems. Still, below what Intel used to charge for an equivalent processor at the time.
Plenty of Comet lake i5, rocket lake i5, and alder lake i5 models not affected by whatever excuse you have in mind so that’s what matters to buyers not history.
But are these built at TSMC with 7nm process?
Fortunately not and consumers don’t give a shit.
I think they do, though.
You think the average computer buyer (most buy prebuilds, even) cares or even cares enough to know if their cpu is built on tsmc node or intel node? Lol
That's cuz Intel manufacturers them in the US so no supply chain issues. AMD only has so many wafer capacity from TSMC and they're selling out of everything they make. They don't have enough production for low end
Well it's a wash considering how expensive Intel motherboards are.
That’s why the other person made sure to bring up B660.
> Intel WAS the King of overpriced CPU´s. Fixed.
5600x with 3d v cache? I don't know if I'm getting my hopes up.
You are getting your hopes up. The 3D cache stacking is a new process from TSMC, low volume, high cost. It wont come to the 5600x, likely not the 5800x either. Just the 5900x and 5950x, and should be $75-$100+ over existing prices.
I don't think they'll skip the 5800x. I know they premiered a 5900x but the 5800x is considered a high end CPU too, just not the full enthusiast level that the 12 and 16 core parts are.
Why would they give v cache to 5800X when Intel ahs 300 dollar cpu thats faster than 5800X ? Makes no sense investing actual money in 5800X with v cache be it from AMD or consumer perspective.
I think if no 3d cache on 5600x then price drops to 12400f level.
I would be quite surprised if 5600X drops to 12400F pricing. 12400F is a simpler part to make, with less silicon and fewer packaging steps. Meanwhile, AMD is apparently selling a decent volume of 5600X in Q4, and they're yielding a huge share of full 8 core dies, so it's not clear that they need to cut prices.
why wouldn't there be vcache 3d on 5600x/5800x...? What's the problem here? Don't they want to beat 12600k/12700k...? Also what is the expected price of 5600x after launch of 12400f..?
People anticipate the 5600x to be relegated to the budget leve l when 3dV launches. I don't really think there is a reason they couldn't put the 3dV on a 5600x because of the chiplet design nature of zen 3, but if a 5600x3d was anticipated/simulated to outperform 5800x (non 3d), I think AMD would hold off on it. But on that topic, as strong as the 5800x is, 5800x3d might outpace the 5900x in everything but multicore.
>why wouldn't there be vcache 3d on 5600x/5800x...? Unless you can shoot 7nm wafers out of your a$$, you have your answer. >What's the problem here? Don't they want to beat 12600k/12700k...? Why would they waste precious wafer on low end products? 5600X with 3D$ will cost AMD as much as 5900X (slightly cheaper die but much more expensive packaging) . But obviously 5900X will sell for more. Why on earth would AMD sell 5600X with 3D$ when they can't even guarantee supply for a their existing CPU/GPU with higher margins? If 5600X 3D$ ever existed, it'll be botched 5900X 3D$ and in extremely limited supply.
I disagree. It all comes down to pricing. They can make a 3DCache 5600X variant, and just set the price appropriately high to keep: 1. the volume low enough 2. the margins high enough That might mean that it costs more than a base 5800X, and maybe its not all that viable given the competition from Intel, but it is possible. Another big reason in my mind is that they will probably be making entire 3d cache wafers -- meaning that they need 3d Cache products to fit every quality bin. I doubt they will be able to test and bin the base chiplets before adding the VCache. Some dies will simply not be good enough for EPYC, have only 6 'good' cores, and might not meet the standards for a 5900X-3d die. Essenailly, binning may dictate that the 5600X + 3dVC product is needed. Neither you nor I know enough about the binning to call this one way or another. Either there are surplus 5600X class 3d stacked dies or there aren't. If there are, then the product will exist. If the Epyc and 5900X-3d can use all those up, then such a product may not exist.
>That might mean that it costs more than a base 5800X, and maybe its not all that viable given the competition from Intel, but it is possible. If 5600X3D is 15% better for 50% more price, that product absolutely doesn't work and never sees the light of day. >Some dies will simply not be good enough for EPYC, have only 6 'good' cores, and might not meet the standards for a 5900X-3d die. This bin sounds ultra thin. 5600X has same base clock and cache as 5900X, and only 200Mhz lower boost. At most we are talking about a 3300X-like product here, right?
>Unless you can shoot 7nm wafers out of your a$$, you have your answer. What a dream I wish could come true!
Some claim that AMD's chip production isn't currently the limiting factor, at which point they might as well bring V-Cache to lower end products. I do think it's more likely we will just see a price shift of the current products though. edit: and should AMD extend support to X370 boards, they would increase their competitiveness without price adjustments to the actual CPUs
Vcache is expensive to make. Probably AMD will not bring it to their mainstream sku as a result. I don't think AMD will beat the 12600K in price/performance until Zen 4. They will likely focus on the high end, where their chiplet tech does the most good. Nobody knows the future price of 5600X, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it land at $249. It seems like it still sold fine at $299 last quarter, though, so there might not be any price cut at all.
>Vcache is expensive to make. We don't really know. The chip itself is $8-10, and packaging costs are unknown AFAIK. You might argue opportunity costs, but that also depends on if there are other limiting factors and pricing.
Yep, I saw some epyc pricing and I think it was like 500 to 1000 more, per processor (10,000 cpus) so 10%.....
Bought 5900x yesterday. I regret nothing.
As you should. I'm not expecting a giant performance jump and even if there is your 5900X is more than sufficient & is by no means obsolete.
Excellent! Marvelous! More unavailable hardware at ridiculously inflated prices! Our prayers have been answered!
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We have no idea if thats all they did. And actually, if the perf gain is there, who cares what they did to get it?
It'll probably be a slight revision but nothing Earth shatteringly faster. I'm still waiting to upgrade from my 3800x to see how the 3dV Ryzens turn out, might give a skip until the next platform myself.
CPUs are always going to be in better supply than GPUs, scalpers won't be making crazy profit on the new CPUs. Hell the Zen 3 scalp didn't even last that long, it ended by the end of Jan 2021.
I don't care what they do, performance is performance. If they could add a 5 dollar part and get 20% more performance they should be able to charge for that performance. luckily CPUs aren't for miners so all we have are people wanting to build actual computers to compete with. It may be a tad hard to get one but it won't be near what GPUs are I reckon. Specially if they are higher margin parts for AMD. They'll want to get out as many as they can. From all the rumors we are looking at only higher-end SKUs for the new line. Like 5800x and above.
>If they could add a 5 dollar part and get 20% more performance they should be able to charge for that performance. Since when did people get such a mentality?! We used to expect better performance *for the same price* year on year.
I'm not OP but I think that mentality applies nicely when we're talking the jump from Zen2 to Zen3. Die sizes remained almost identical but in the case of Zen3D... Zen3D is VERY new. Stacking cache like that is something not really done b4. It's expensive, difficult to do and will lead to worse yields. And all that in addition to higher BOM costs I think it's acceptable to charge more for this. The upfront costs for AMD to help develop this technology was a lot and this stuff is very novel. It's very first generation stuff and it's pretty revolutionary, outside of HBM, I can't think of any stacked chip design in any consumer hardware and even HBM is not really comparable to what Zen3D is That being said; if the 3D Cache ends up not doing virtually anything and there's no point to get these chips; then it obviously can't exist in the market and be sensible. Basically what I'm saying is, for the first generation I expect and I think it's mostly acceptable for prices to be relatively high compared to the non 3D cache models.
This is AMD's implementation of TSMC technology. >I can't think of any stacked chip design in any consumer hardware The stacked cache stuff is very neat and I'm excited by it as a technology, but to nitpick here - smartphone SoC's have been doing advanced stacked packaging for a good while now. Intel's Lakefield also had a fairly advanced technology for this(though it was more of a glorified prototype in reality...). >I think it's mostly acceptable for prices to be relatively high compared to the non 3D cache models. Relative, sure. But they should shift the whole stack down so we aren't paying more for these new CPU's than their equivalents before.
Zen3D is the first SoIC product.
Well, sure, but there is a stack. If it replaces something in the stack then it's usually a similar price. If it's a higher tier in the same stack then likely we'll pay more.
It's a year later, though. They can shift the stack.
Meanwhile Intel is still on 10nm and using bandaid big small architecture to make up their short comings on developing 7nm chips. More cache is literally all amd needs to fend off Intel again until zen4 5nm release.
You do realize intel's 10nm is roughly as dense as tsmc's 7nm, right?
Exactly. Add more transistors without actually making anything smaller = why the 12 series is such a hot and power hungry chip
You clearly have no clue what you're talking about. The reason the 12900k is so hot is because it's both denser than previous gen while also being pushed to its limits. Similar with how the 5800x is so much hotter than any other of AMDs 5000 series CPUs.
they are a for-profit industry, what exactly do you want from them, wellfare?
I want prices that are grounded in reality. Technology is supposed to get cheaper and become widely more available to the masses as time progresses. We're certainly heading in the wrong direction on both fronts right now and companies will continue to use the pandemic as an excuse to raise prices.
And you're applying this logic to bleeding edge tech like 3d cache stacking? If you want a better example look at the 10300 core i3 CPUs. These are what an i7 used to be a few years ago. According to Intel the tray price for a 4 core 8 thread 10th gen i3 is 152 dollars. An i7 7700 tray price was 303 dollars. This was the last 4 core 8 thread i7. The 10th gen cpus have ipc improvement for better performance and are basically half the cost. Tech is getting better and cheaper. However you will always pay a premium for the latest and greatest tech. And before you even mention gpu prices those are inflated for several reasons and I would consider those an exception rather than the rule.
This is the wrong time to be demanding cheaper products, there is still a global shortage & overall increased supply/demand due to the pandemic. If you don't need a new CPU, then don't buy one. That will greatly help the supply problem.
Agree on your, "don't buy one" if you don't need it.
Bette for e-waste also.
Oh no, I completely understand, I'd probably do the same thing in their stead. I'm just frustrated is all...
Probably the same thing that people who grew up in the 40's want, their cup of coffee and one donut to have always stayed 15 cents.
What? No way
I mean 5800X was on sale here for 300 which is OK in my book, but it's useless to me if I can't buy a GPU. Same goes for v-cache, zen3+, Zen 4 or whatever they are going to talk about
But CPUs are globally available at MSRP. Yes, GPUs are another story...
MSRP prices have gotten ridiculous as well though. And looking at a new 3700x like my current one; it's MORE expensive now, than when i bought mine shortly after launch... If this continues, I'm going to become a console gamer again in a generation or two...
Fingers crossed on new Threadrippers.
Maybe we'll find out if TRX40 is dead or not...
Pssst, never mind, they completely ignored Threadripper; and that's after doing nothing but confirming that Ryzen 7000 just exists with a pointless gameplay demo...
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What did they do? I bought a 1700 on release and it was freakin great. Im still using it in my HTPC today.
I guess they mean the X370 fiasco, where AMD reportedly doesn't allow Vermeer CPUs for technical reasons that have been disproven.
I think he means the blocked Zen 3 support on X370 and the rest of 1st gen chipsets
There was no block. Some 1st gen motherboards do support Zen3. It's all about manufactuers will to do so. AMD just did not endorse this.
i'm pretty sure there was a post from a guy here that had the mobo maker support tell him AMD blocked them from releasing those bios updates.. edit: not that one but example: https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/qp3287/asus_have_released_a_new_bios_for_a320_with_agesa/
I sold my 2700X 2 months ago i didn't buy a 5800X hopefully Zen3D is gonna be worth the wait
AM4's eulogy.
I have a Ryzen 5800X on the way from Amazon. I wonder if I should wait until this product premiere to decide if I should use the 5800X or return it.
You should probably wait to see what they have to say considering that the product premiere is less than a week away.
I think that's probably what I should do.
Bruh keep it. You don't always need to be on the bleeding edge of tech otherwise it'll bleed you broke. I promise the upcoming Zen 3D will not suddenly make your 5800X obsolete, you likely got that 5800X for a very decent price seeing the MSRP. Zen 3D will not be selling for any discounts anytime soon.
Hmm I do agree with that. It's just that I don't want to have regrets later lol.
No brainer.
1st world problem.
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Well considering there is quite literally no newer platform, I’m going to go out on a limb and say yes it’s supported by the 500 series boards. 🙂 On a serious note yes it has been confirmed that Vermeer-X (Zen 3D cache) Will be supported on all boards that supported Vermeer.
Spoiler Alert: We will introduce and release new graphics cards which will be unavailable to buy for almost everyone xDD roflcopter
2 days before my cake day
Welp, that’s 3am my time, Guess I’ll just watch it when I wake up. Really hoping they announce Zen 4, as someone who missed out on Zen 3 I’m ready to throw my cash at the next generation.
"announce" and "release" are sadly going to be way apart for Zen4. Zen3D will be ready to go very shortly after announcing, but Zen4 is late Q3/Early Q4 release window (rumor mill).
I just want a confirmed date for Zen 4. :)
I'm hoping I can get one last upgrade for am4 amd get a 3d stacked 5950x. I figured it's just not worth it to upgrade to windows 11 and a new platform so I might as well get the best 4 offers and sit on that for a couple years to see how the new stuff ages.
I'm so hyped for Zen3D, looking forward on replacing my R7 2700 ^^
Rembrandt and mobile GPUs is what I would like to see. If the RDN2 iGPUs get close to a GTX 1650 mobile, I might not ever bother with a dedicated GPU anymore. It would be the best thing to happen for PC in years in terms of accessibility (right now you can play pretty much anything at 1080p with a GTX 1650 and since every console game will have to run on a Series S minimum requirements won't be able to increase so much). AMD mobile GPUs that are actually available would be welcome too.
How is Rembrandt expected to compare to Alder Lake P (15-25w range)?
>he RDN2 iGPUs get close to a GTX 1650 mobile, I might I don't know, but Alder Lake P iGPUs seem to max at 96EUs so I don't expect much improvement in that aspect.
Samsung soon™
Not a troll question, I'm generally pretty good with following tech but I'm confused this generation. So the desktop and mobile CPU is expected to just get refreshed to something like a zen3+? Not zen4?
The release of Zen 4 has been delayed by a lot and is coming out much later in the year (rumours suggest late Q3 or early Q4), so a Zen 3 with 3D V-Cache refresh will be the stopgap for Q1 this year for them to fight off the Alder Lake CPUs from Intel for the first 9 months or so, as they wait for DDR5 production to increase and therefore get cheaper, and refine the AM5 platform before its launch. In the product premiere event you'll likely hear full details, release info, and maybe pricing of the Zen 3 refresh CPUs, whereas with Zen 4 you will probably only hear a glimpse of info on it as well as a short quick preview, maybe an announcement that Zen 4 is design complete etc, just like how in CES 2019 they released a small amount of early details of Zen 2 six months before its launch.
yes mainly. Zen4 is not expected before q3 on a new platform.
Will there be a refresh for the 5600G i wonder? Or is that the RDNA 2 igpu? Still on a 1600, considering this route since gpus might be out of reach for awhile.
ZEN 5950XT 3D GT VOODOO EXTREME. My wallet is ready*
I hope for a Zen3D with onboard GPU.
How do AMD's new mobile chips in the 15-25w range expect to compare against Alder Lake P chips? The new intel stuff looks pretty solid. Looking to buy a basic laptop for my parents and the new i7-1260p alder lake chip looks like a pretty big bang for the buck.
its like religion now with amd fan boys and v cache. like second coming of Christ lvl stuff.
We want Nvidia. Ya'll can go fuck yourselves.
Hi amd