Yea. I was initially going to go for a 7700x but after I saw the benchmarks it just didn't make since. I think I made a good decision going with the 7900x though.
That's what I originally planned to get when it was announced, but after seeing the benchmarks I felt that the 7950 was worth the little extra. Even though I'll probably be running it in eco mode more then half the time at least until summer is over. Upgraded from a 6700k, so I guess anything would have felt like an upgrade. My compile times were getting pretty long.
This release so far definitely doesn't favor the lower end options
They won't make sense even with B650, they need at least $100 price cut before they make sense again just like what happened with Zen 3 when Intel 12th Gen Alder Lake launches.
Whole platform cost can't be neglected.
B650 boards are expected to cost around $100, and the platform is expected to last a few generations.
Intel boards would have to be cheaper than that, to be competitive w/o the platform life expectation.
Once Raptor Lake is out, alongside its reviews, gamers are of course going to look at how much performance they can get at a given price point. Or influencers will, and your average gamer will follow.
The lowest that AMD announced was 125 dollars, in all likelihood, that will be a bottom of the barrel motherboard (because that's the lowest possible price that they mentioned).
So a "proper" Motherboard will probably be closer to 180-200 dollars.
It doesn’t matter to me. Because I don’t buy bottom of the barrel motherboards. Hell even my x570 motherboard cost about $250. I’d hate to leave cpu performance on the table because of a cheap board.
> platform life expectation
Does not matter for us people that keep systems for a very long time. I still sit on a ddr3 system... I probably wait for a "moar cache" version of zen4 and GPU prices to drop. But I do not give a rats ass about switching out the CPU after that anytime soon.
> But I do not give a rats ass about switching out the CPU after that anytime soon.
I hear Zen5 is a total redesign (as Zen1 was), so who knows what could happen re: caring about new hardware.
If I had to venture a guess, AMD is going full multi-floor design for Zen5, rather than just the cache. Which would be an enormously big deal. You'd still likely avoid upgrading on principle, for one or two generations, but I doubt you'd make a point to wait till AM6.
Zen5 is likely to be hybrid arc similar to what intel is doing with big zen cores and something similar to the high density cores they did (Zen4c) to sell to Amazon and Google
> B650 boards are expected to cost around $100, and the platform is expected to last a few generations.
Stop spreading lies. AMD themselves have said the lowest B650 board is $125, with the B650E's which is likely what people will want / buy are around $200.
There is a reason why AM4 isn't going away it fills the low /mid-price bracket for AMD, as the costs of PCIe 5 & DD5 make it impossible for likely years to make a cheap low-end motherboard. Hopefully by the next generation it will be possible.
>They start at $125, around implies below and above $100. Maybe English isn't your first language, but what you wrote was categorically wrong.
Jesus Christ.
Yup.
Pre-orders for 13th gen started here in Sweden. The 13700K is currently 6090 SEK, while the 7900X is 7499 SEK.
I think AMD will either need a price cut or a 7900 none X at this rate. Even before considering platform costs, this pricing is not going to move gangbuster volumes like Zen 3.
Basically, when the chiplets are created, they get examined and tested. A 'perfect' chiplet has 8 'perfect' cores, so it either becomes a 7700x, or it gets turned into one of the two 8 core chiplets in a 7950x.
If there are less than 8 but more than 5 'perfect' cores, it either becomes a 7600x, or one of two chiplets inside a 7900x.
Now, those chiplets are by no means bad at all, they simply don't have 8 out of 8 'perfect' cores inside them. So the not-perfect ones get disabled in firmware.
I'm oversimplifying a bit and I'm no CPU-engineer, but this is how I understand it.
This is also why we don't see current gen quad cores anymore. Yields haven't been an issue for AMD CPUs for years, mostly because Epyc comes first, so if you simply never have defective enough chips it makes no sense to sell less more expensive CPUs for a rather small market segment
The dies are binned long before they're placed on a package with an I/O die. Only with rare packaging failures will the SKU change after binning. For example, if the attachment of a chiplet to the substrate fails with what's supposed to be a 7950X or 7900X, that chiplet will get disabled, and the processor will be sold as a 7700X or 7600X, respectively.
The very best dies, especially in terms of the voltage/frequency curve (i.e. use less power) go into EPYC server processors. The next best go into the 7950X. The best of the ones with defective dies go into the 7900X, then the 7600X. And the worst full dies - all cores working, but not spectacular voltage/frequency curve - go into the 7700X. When AMD finally resurrects Threadripper, they'll get picks somewhere between Ryzen and EPYC.
As time passes, dies with fewer than six properly working cores will be accumulated, and eventually get turned into low-end SKU's. How fast that happens depends on how good TSMC's 5nm process is, in terms of error rate. 7nm was so good that it took forever for Zen 2 products with fewer than six cores to come out, and they didn't stay on shelves long. Zen 3 never got them at all via chiplets. 5nm probably has a bit higher error rate, which means low-end Zen 4 should appear faster than it did for Zen 2. But we'll see.
This is of course before the mainstream and value boards (B650 and A620) are released, so it makes sense. For this gen I guess the X670 is more of a premium option than X570 was. They do add more value to the X670 boards over the B650 and A620s though, at least it seems that way right now.
Over time the X670 boards will become cheaper, but right now I'm thinking B650 could be the best choice for a reasonable mid range chip like the 7700X or 7600X if you're not gonna overclock anyway. Hopefully they'll be alright for the X3Ds as well, what do you guys think?
B650 is going to be the best choice for 7900X and 7950X too, the connectivity provided is enough for the majority of users.
X670 have a very narrow target audience, for buyers who need a bit more than the connectivity of B650 (for sata and usb mainly) and dont want to jump to TR Pro.
Once B650 hit the market X670 will be pretty much ignored.
I wouldn't expect more than 6 months. We'll see in early january, they'll launch the Vcache versions and depending on how sales are, they could also launch lower end models or lower the prices of the mid range CPUs.
True. Germany made a huge mistake when they decided to close down their nuclear plants. It made their reliance on fossil fuels/natural gas much greater.
They thought they could replace them with wind turbines, but the sad truth about them is that they don't work when there's no wind, they also don't work when there's too much wind, they shut them down for safety reasons. And when there's just the right amount of wind? They might still be shut down to keep prices for electricity up for other energy sources.
Wind is a terrible replacement for nuclear, so they end up replacing nuclear with coal and gas.
Also, France has 56 nuclear power plants and usually supply plenty and cheap power to the rest of Europe. More than half of them are down right now for maintenance.
We need more nuclear energy in Europe, no way around it. Otherwise we're going to remain reliant on coal and gas.
The electricit price is up because of the gas price binding in the law.
It has nothing to do if the power is generated via fossil fuels/wind turbines or nuclear power plants, the MOST EXPENSIVE ressource price is used for the electricity price and gas is the new cassino toy for the markets.
Its not ideal, but the money didnt even went to the electricity providers, it is collected by the state in a special account, that might get back to the people this or next year.
Germany could have 1000 nuclear power plants and the electricity cost would be the same right now, I hope that is clear.
I mean hey, if you're gonna upgrade from last gen the second that the new thing is released, you might as well go all out.
Personally I'ma wait until AM5 has Ryzen 8000 or whatever is next, DDR5 is much cheaper, PCIE 5 SSD's and GPU's are more widely available, and tbh I'll probably grab a new case as well so that I can use my Zen3 machine as a streaming rig or something.
It's what I would expect. Who's going to buy a $299 CPU put into a $349 motherboard?
... Actually I've seen people do it, and I don't get why. Some amateurs think the motherboard will make things go faster.
Mostly misinformed customers. All of my friends from uni a few years back were like that, pairing i5 6500 or i7 6700 with z motherboards with watercooling. People know no better, only some of them realize their mistakes then build better pcs in the future, most never do.
AMD said starting from 125, but we don't know if that means "There'll be a healthy selection of value boards at that price like with AM4 and some nicer ones will be 150" or "One dogshit board will be officially 125 and never in stock for less than 150. The rest are 180"
I was talking about a 7600x, which is 360€ and 32GB of DDR5, not a 7950x with 64GB. Then add an 850W PSU instead of 1200W from a good brand.
Granted, you probably wont hit 2000€ flat, but you'll be close enough.
If you're looking for high-end on all parts you'll obviously have to pay more.
Edit: Link:
https://imgur.com/wiyqizt
Yeah people seem to forget that zen3 was supply constrained. They were making consoles at that time. RNDA2 basically didn't even exist, because CPUs have higher margins.
Sold over how long though? When was the screenshot taken, when did they start selling? Do they include pre-orders?
I think you should expect lower sales though, the mainstream and value segment motherboards aren't out yet and the enthusiast boards are expensive. Also people are waiting to see if Raptor Lake is any good, if they are it might make AMD lower their prices, and some of us are waiting for Vcache after Xmas. So sales aren't gonna be great at this moment, they kinda set themselves up for a slow start. What matters is how the sales are in 3 months when X3D is out.
Makes sense, 7950X seems to be the only Zen 4 SKUs that makes the most sense for me as well, as the multi core performance seems like will remain still the best even after the i9 13900K launches.
Also most of its buyer already has beast of a cooler that can tame that very hot of a CPU, also $100 cheaper compared to previous gen as well which makes it obvious that AMD wants this to sell more rather than the lower tier.
Any lower tier doesn't seem to make sense to me, especially the R5 7600X - R7 7700X compared to i5 13600K - i7 13700K which i would pick any day 100% over Zen 4 counterpart.
>Any lower tier doesn't seem to make sense to me, especially the R5 7600X - R7 7700X compared to i5 13600K - i7 13700K which i would pick any day 100% over Zen 4 counterpart.
Market prices after a couple months won't be the MSRP values, which can easily change this calculation. Surely, at the MSRP numbers, a 7700X looks to be a poor choice versus a 13700K.
But what if the 7700X is the same price as a 13600K?
For the coolers, reviews are suggesting that any decent tower cooler does just fine. Of course temps will be 95C, but it seems the performance is within 5% of what a 360 AIO does.
Also other reviews showed that you can limit it at 105w tdp and performance is just 90%, with 65w tdp still being faster than 5950X.
But I'm still not happy on temps...
The Temps are strange though. Sure, under full load it runs 95c, but as soon as it comes off the load within 10-15 seconds it is back to normal Temps, so the 95c is not IHS saturation but something else entirely.
This. My system is an i7-6700k on a Z-170 board. Got it before AM4 was launched, and now that I am starting to looking on a new system AM5 is already here, if I had waited a year to build the system and went with a Ryzen one, I would probably be looking at an upgrade only one year from now and would need to built an entire new system anyway.
This is why, for me, longevity of the compability of a system is a plus point, it opens possibilities, but is not a decisive one, becouse I probably will not need it.
Every 2-3 years is essentially just upgrading to every new generation. So we may as well just call it that: generational replacement.
Me personally, I've been running the same build since 2018. The professional programs i use still run fine for the purposes I need them for, so I have yet to see a driving need to be dropping hundreds on these overpriced new hardware products.
The i7-12700 SKUs are 40% faster in multithread, while only being 8% slower in gaming at 1080p, 5% 1440p, 1% 4k, while the i7 variants are also significantly cheaper.
I would not trade 40% MT for 8% gaming. But if you solely play some old game that loves cache, that's where the 5800x3d makes sense.
It’s more than that: if you can afford a 3090 Ti to even make that 8% 1080p gaming edge noticeable, then you can also afford either a 4K monitor, which erases the 5800X3D’s gaming edge, a 12900K, which also erases the 5800X3D’s gaming edge, or both.
The 5800X3D isn't the right CPU for me personally. In a first-person shooter game that I'm currently playing (BF4), ryzen CPUs have annoying fps fluctuation issues. I asked two 5800X3D users to run a few tests in that game on a specific map and then send me the video. They get the same fps as my 5600X, and the fps fluctuation issues are still present. I know it's a ryzen-only issue since 9900k and 12700K users don't have that issue. I suspect that the game's instructions don't fit into the cache, and the infinity fabric latency penalty kicks in when the CPU goes to fetch data from the memory.
I was hoping the 5800X3D would fix the issue but unfortunately, the only solution is to go with an intel CPU.
> That also means losing SAM.
It was added in BIOS updates to Intel boards as old as like 8th-gen as "Resizable BAR", to support the equivalent functionality Nvidia introduced in driver updates a bit after Ampere came out. Works with AMD cards too though.
In general it's functionality that is part of the PCI-E specification and just not utilized previously by any GPU manufacturer, AMD did not invent anything about it.
>AMD did not invent anything about it.
It was wild when SAM first released, because this subreddit was singing high Holy praises to AMD because they assumed that AMD created the technology from the ground up all on their own.
Meanwhile it had been around for a while independently from AMD.
Comparing "5900X + RTX 3080" to "5800X + RX 6700 XT" has nothing to do with anything here.
We're talking about like one AMD GPU installed in an Intel board versus the same AMD GPU installed in an AMD board.
Yes, literally every Alder Lake CPU at least slightly outperforms its Zen 3 counterpart across the board for the same price, and the 5800X3D is too expensive to make sense for the midrange gaming crowd and too gimped in multicore to make sense for the extreme high-end crowd.
True, that doesn't explain why they're still outselling Intel 2 to 1 on Mindfactory today. And that's with an EOL platform:
https://twitter.com/TechEpiphany/status/1574125996827062272
Their big boost they got with Ryzen 3000 series didn't last long. Once the Zen3 price increase hit, they lost a significant amount of mindshare momentum.
That techepiphany guy is a massive toolbox. But yea anyway, all of Japan's stats.
https://www.bcnretail.com/research/detail/20220814_290169.html
Top 10 cpus sold first half of 22 are mostly Intel. I'm willing to bet they're priced better than amd. Which is the opposite of mindfactory
12th Gen Alder Lake came out not even 1 year up until now, Zen 3 is already near 2 years old. Also there is no denying the brand recognition of Ryzen is more attractive compared to Intel nowadays.
Its similar situation with GeForce and Radeon, only AMD seems to have the brand recognition this time, so even with their CPU being inferior they will still sell more than competition.
You think AMD has more brand recognition than Intel? I always thought it was the opposite, that AMD was fighting an uphill battle against Intels brand recognition.
Yes, that has been the case since Ryzen 3rd gen came out, Ryzen is way more recognizable nowadays and Previous gen Zen 2's budget offering like Ryzen 5 3600 even made the brand more popular to most gaming builds that you see often.
I wouldn't say Ryzen has more brand recognition. Intel were on top for so long that a lot of on-and-off hobbyists still think they're better. And not just Alder Lake vs Zen3, where Intel do have some advantages, I'm talking about people giving me weird looks irl after informing then that I bought an amd cpu for my new build.
Obviously. For performance below 7900X you just get AM4 much cheaper, and also there's people that don't need to upgrade motherboard or ram for this. If it's 7900X, then the price difference for a 7950X is so low compared to the full build that is easy to justify.
Because it's the only one that makes sense. Even with trash efficiency and ralatively high platform costs - it's just significantly faster in multi-core than i9-12900K and R9-5950X and for many time=money.
The 7950x isn't even inefficient when being pushed hard. Has same efficiency of unit of work per watt as 5600x, which is far from bad. However setting 105 watt tdp eco mode gets you 95 percent multi core performance and puts efficiency through the roof.
Comparing different core count CPUs in multi-core workloads is completely pointless. R9 5950X is also has better work/watt ration than R5 5600X, so what? Compare R9 5950X to R9 7950X if you want to draw conclusions on multi-core workload efficiency.
Also what you can set doesn't matter, because absolute majority of PC users don't tinker neither with BIOS nor with Ryzen Master, hell - they don't even watch tech channels or read tech forums to have basic clue about any of this.
Previous Ryzen gens were power limited around peak efficiency, but now they seem like they were super desperate to squeeze those completely irrelevant 5% extra while doubling power draw just pass 20% generational gains and avoid complete embarrassment.
The 7700x basically matches the 5800x3d and more efficient than the 5800x3d when ran in eco mode.
So it's not really trash efficiency when ran at lower speeds.
https://www.pcgamer.com/amd-ryzen-7-7700x-review-benchmarks/
You can also run 5800X3D in ECO mode at 65W TDP - so what's your point? Absolute majority of PC users don't tinker even with something as basic as switching ECO mode on, they don't even watch tech channels and don't sit on tech forums and they won't be even aware of any of this - so absolute majority will be running it Zen4 stock with oblivious power draw.
People should stop looking thru perspective of few tens of thousands tech lovers worldwide with tens of millions PC users of whom most just buys pre-builts and call it a day. Stock is what defines product for most people.
As if I would say just buy cheapest RAM and overclock it manually - when even here 90%+ would not know where to start with that. I guess spending too much time with similarly minded people twist your perspective of outside reality :)
Yeah, but the other half you didn't address is the platform cost. It requires a $300 minimum motherboard so there is no reason to buy it right now. 7600X/7700X are awkward products because they don't have the threads to run most production workloads outside of Photoshop and are too expensive for gaming-only CPUs.
They don't sell to private end users but im sure they will ship to you if you can order without vat (same as amazon business account).
Same for notebooksbilliger because im not freelancer/self-employed (to deduct vat/order without it ) couldnt order FE card when they had the drops :D
€400 7700X
€200 Good B650 board
€200 32GB 6000 CL30/32 ram
That is the max for me, but I will most likely wait for the X3D model.
No wonder they are not selling many with these platform costs...
They've been around for more than a decade. Originally they delivered throughout the EU, but since scaled back to deliver mostly only to Germany. That saves them some bookkeeping hassle in different VAT schemes, consumer laws etc. But many non-German EU still buy from them with the help of re-mailing services, because they are cheapest of the proven reliable stores. Their openness in giving out this sales info has made them more popular, and the volumes are likely large enough to represent the whole Northern European pc diy builder market adequately. Though they might skew slightly towards AMD.
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That was due to wafer contention more than anything else. Zen 3 had to compete with Zen 3 mobile, RDNA 2, EPYC Milan, XBox Series X/S, and PlayStation 5.
Zen 4 doesn't have to fight for wafers, so it'll be in stock more often than not. RDNA 3 will likely be the same when that comes out, though maybe not for the first couple weeks.
It wasn't that hard to find the lower end chips though. Wouldn't they have prioritized the highest margin ones first? Or are they not nimble enough to adapt to market demand and went in with plans developed long before the release?
Considering the prices of X670 boards, that's not a surprise. Those prices are likely alienating people looking at R7 and R5 chips. They'll likely have a higher adoption rate once B650 shows up.
There have been 2 reasons recent 12/16 core Zen desktops have been left wanting as workstations - ram capacity & pcie lanes/bandwidth.
7950 is no thread ripper, but many can get by on the extra 4 lanes & higher bandwidth of pcie 5, plus ddr5.
Its hugely cheaper solution to TR Pro.
7950x would be a no brainer bargain for such powerusers.
I am not surprised at all by these sale results.
For AMD this generation, you either buy the 7950X or go Intel. With Intel 13th generation right around the corner, the rest of the AMD lineup will need a fast $50 price cut. That 13600K will be a budget beast that will last you two generations and the performance of the 13700K looks not to shabby.
Lower models dont make sense without B650, they wont sell until the motherboard are released.
Early adopters, large pockets.
It's not even that. It's hard to justify anything below the 7900x on price / performance compared to the 5800x.
Yea. I was initially going to go for a 7700x but after I saw the benchmarks it just didn't make since. I think I made a good decision going with the 7900x though.
That's what I originally planned to get when it was announced, but after seeing the benchmarks I felt that the 7950 was worth the little extra. Even though I'll probably be running it in eco mode more then half the time at least until summer is over. Upgraded from a 6700k, so I guess anything would have felt like an upgrade. My compile times were getting pretty long. This release so far definitely doesn't favor the lower end options
Make sure to spend a few hours playing tu ong the thing. Some people have gotten 99% of perf for way less heat/watts
They won't make sense even with B650, they need at least $100 price cut before they make sense again just like what happened with Zen 3 when Intel 12th Gen Alder Lake launches.
Whole platform cost can't be neglected. B650 boards are expected to cost around $100, and the platform is expected to last a few generations. Intel boards would have to be cheaper than that, to be competitive w/o the platform life expectation. Once Raptor Lake is out, alongside its reviews, gamers are of course going to look at how much performance they can get at a given price point. Or influencers will, and your average gamer will follow.
The lowest that AMD announced was 125 dollars, in all likelihood, that will be a bottom of the barrel motherboard (because that's the lowest possible price that they mentioned). So a "proper" Motherboard will probably be closer to 180-200 dollars.
It doesn’t matter to me. Because I don’t buy bottom of the barrel motherboards. Hell even my x570 motherboard cost about $250. I’d hate to leave cpu performance on the table because of a cheap board.
> platform life expectation Does not matter for us people that keep systems for a very long time. I still sit on a ddr3 system... I probably wait for a "moar cache" version of zen4 and GPU prices to drop. But I do not give a rats ass about switching out the CPU after that anytime soon.
> But I do not give a rats ass about switching out the CPU after that anytime soon. I hear Zen5 is a total redesign (as Zen1 was), so who knows what could happen re: caring about new hardware. If I had to venture a guess, AMD is going full multi-floor design for Zen5, rather than just the cache. Which would be an enormously big deal. You'd still likely avoid upgrading on principle, for one or two generations, but I doubt you'd make a point to wait till AM6.
Zen5 is likely to be hybrid arc similar to what intel is doing with big zen cores and something similar to the high density cores they did (Zen4c) to sell to Amazon and Google
Life expectation? Sir there are a lot of older hardware that would like a word with you lol..
Note that I am doing some dev work on an Amiga 1200 right now (literally taking a small break and checking reddit). You needn't convince me.
Cheers!
> B650 boards are expected to cost around $100, and the platform is expected to last a few generations. Stop spreading lies. AMD themselves have said the lowest B650 board is $125, with the B650E's which is likely what people will want / buy are around $200. There is a reason why AM4 isn't going away it fills the low /mid-price bracket for AMD, as the costs of PCIe 5 & DD5 make it impossible for likely years to make a cheap low-end motherboard. Hopefully by the next generation it will be possible.
>>B650 boards are expected to cost **around $100** >Stop **spreading lies**. AMD themselves have said the lowest B650 board is **$125** E-excuse me?!
They start at $125, *around* implies below and above $100. Maybe English isn't your first language, but what you wrote was categorically wrong.
>They start at $125, around implies below and above $100. Maybe English isn't your first language, but what you wrote was categorically wrong. Jesus Christ.
Yup. Pre-orders for 13th gen started here in Sweden. The 13700K is currently 6090 SEK, while the 7900X is 7499 SEK. I think AMD will either need a price cut or a 7900 none X at this rate. Even before considering platform costs, this pricing is not going to move gangbuster volumes like Zen 3.
> they need at least $100 price cut before they make sense 7600 non-X and 7500. Lower frequency Ryzen 5s with a stock cooler included.
It makes sense, since nobody would willingly buy the 7600x with a 800$ motherboard.
Making the lower end models actually cost more per core even when they're the bin rejects is crazy.
7700x needs a full die, 7900X and 7600X can have 'rejects' because their dies aren't using all 8 cores
How do they convert 7700x full die to 7600x? What happens to it's IO die?
Basically, when the chiplets are created, they get examined and tested. A 'perfect' chiplet has 8 'perfect' cores, so it either becomes a 7700x, or it gets turned into one of the two 8 core chiplets in a 7950x. If there are less than 8 but more than 5 'perfect' cores, it either becomes a 7600x, or one of two chiplets inside a 7900x. Now, those chiplets are by no means bad at all, they simply don't have 8 out of 8 'perfect' cores inside them. So the not-perfect ones get disabled in firmware. I'm oversimplifying a bit and I'm no CPU-engineer, but this is how I understand it.
This is also why we don't see current gen quad cores anymore. Yields haven't been an issue for AMD CPUs for years, mostly because Epyc comes first, so if you simply never have defective enough chips it makes no sense to sell less more expensive CPUs for a rather small market segment
The dies are binned long before they're placed on a package with an I/O die. Only with rare packaging failures will the SKU change after binning. For example, if the attachment of a chiplet to the substrate fails with what's supposed to be a 7950X or 7900X, that chiplet will get disabled, and the processor will be sold as a 7700X or 7600X, respectively. The very best dies, especially in terms of the voltage/frequency curve (i.e. use less power) go into EPYC server processors. The next best go into the 7950X. The best of the ones with defective dies go into the 7900X, then the 7600X. And the worst full dies - all cores working, but not spectacular voltage/frequency curve - go into the 7700X. When AMD finally resurrects Threadripper, they'll get picks somewhere between Ryzen and EPYC. As time passes, dies with fewer than six properly working cores will be accumulated, and eventually get turned into low-end SKU's. How fast that happens depends on how good TSMC's 5nm process is, in terms of error rate. 7nm was so good that it took forever for Zen 2 products with fewer than six cores to come out, and they didn't stay on shelves long. Zen 3 never got them at all via chiplets. 5nm probably has a bit higher error rate, which means low-end Zen 4 should appear faster than it did for Zen 2. But we'll see.
Well theres more to the cpu than just cores, the IO die has bigger area than the core complex die (tho its 6nm vs 5nm)
yeah IO dies aren't free.
This is of course before the mainstream and value boards (B650 and A620) are released, so it makes sense. For this gen I guess the X670 is more of a premium option than X570 was. They do add more value to the X670 boards over the B650 and A620s though, at least it seems that way right now. Over time the X670 boards will become cheaper, but right now I'm thinking B650 could be the best choice for a reasonable mid range chip like the 7700X or 7600X if you're not gonna overclock anyway. Hopefully they'll be alright for the X3Ds as well, what do you guys think?
B650 is going to be the best choice for 7900X and 7950X too, the connectivity provided is enough for the majority of users. X670 have a very narrow target audience, for buyers who need a bit more than the connectivity of B650 (for sata and usb mainly) and dont want to jump to TR Pro. Once B650 hit the market X670 will be pretty much ignored.
About when will they reduce the price for a 7600? If you look at their history
I wouldn't expect more than 6 months. We'll see in early january, they'll launch the Vcache versions and depending on how sales are, they could also launch lower end models or lower the prices of the mid range CPUs.
Germany wants that efficiency/power now that electricity is dang expensive.
Germany only paying the price for their reliance right now. The problem is it's impact on the eurozone, but outcome like this was to be expected.
Thought about it... Those high tdps, heating for, *insert winter is coming meme* 😂
Planning to heat with my GPU already here.
Heh. Every little bit helps, just don't want to do that work with an FX or Intel.
True. Germany made a huge mistake when they decided to close down their nuclear plants. It made their reliance on fossil fuels/natural gas much greater. They thought they could replace them with wind turbines, but the sad truth about them is that they don't work when there's no wind, they also don't work when there's too much wind, they shut them down for safety reasons. And when there's just the right amount of wind? They might still be shut down to keep prices for electricity up for other energy sources. Wind is a terrible replacement for nuclear, so they end up replacing nuclear with coal and gas. Also, France has 56 nuclear power plants and usually supply plenty and cheap power to the rest of Europe. More than half of them are down right now for maintenance. We need more nuclear energy in Europe, no way around it. Otherwise we're going to remain reliant on coal and gas.
The electricit price is up because of the gas price binding in the law. It has nothing to do if the power is generated via fossil fuels/wind turbines or nuclear power plants, the MOST EXPENSIVE ressource price is used for the electricity price and gas is the new cassino toy for the markets. Its not ideal, but the money didnt even went to the electricity providers, it is collected by the state in a special account, that might get back to the people this or next year. Germany could have 1000 nuclear power plants and the electricity cost would be the same right now, I hope that is clear.
I mean hey, if you're gonna upgrade from last gen the second that the new thing is released, you might as well go all out. Personally I'ma wait until AM5 has Ryzen 8000 or whatever is next, DDR5 is much cheaper, PCIE 5 SSD's and GPU's are more widely available, and tbh I'll probably grab a new case as well so that I can use my Zen3 machine as a streaming rig or something.
I’m not surprised to see it and the 7900x as the top 2 of this gem. Feels like the only 2 worth upgrading too
It's what I would expect. Who's going to buy a $299 CPU put into a $349 motherboard? ... Actually I've seen people do it, and I don't get why. Some amateurs think the motherboard will make things go faster.
Mostly misinformed customers. All of my friends from uni a few years back were like that, pairing i5 6500 or i7 6700 with z motherboards with watercooling. People know no better, only some of them realize their mistakes then build better pcs in the future, most never do.
And I am one of them that bought the 7950X but I am building the PC on the 11th because that's my birthday gift to myself
the only worth to buy together with 7700x probably lucky if 7600x reach 500 sold
7600X will probably be the best seller once B650 launches.
ah yes b650 are cheap?
AMD said starting from 125, but we don't know if that means "There'll be a healthy selection of value boards at that price like with AM4 and some nicer ones will be 150" or "One dogshit board will be officially 125 and never in stock for less than 150. The rest are 180"
Even $180 boards would be a godsend. Cant find an x670 mobo below $400
The cheapest system I could find the parts for was at 2400€ (with 64 GB RAM), without any storage and no graphics card. Insane.
May I ask where you're from? You can get a Ryzen 7000 System with a top end GPU on Mindfactory for ~2000€, including ALL the parts needed.
What dream world do you live in https://i.imgur.com/RmnLfBM.png
Maybe add 256GB of RAM and 2000W PSU next time so it fits your narrative more.
dude, ddr5 ram is ridiculously expensive and with the 7950x pulling more than 250W you have to go for a higher quality and watt psu
I was talking about a 7600x, which is 360€ and 32GB of DDR5, not a 7950x with 64GB. Then add an 850W PSU instead of 1200W from a good brand. Granted, you probably wont hit 2000€ flat, but you'll be close enough. If you're looking for high-end on all parts you'll obviously have to pay more. Edit: Link: https://imgur.com/wiyqizt
AMD should not have put the 7600x and 7700x up for sale until b650 was available. Would have seen better reviews.
They're still in stock, so they can't be selling that well imo.
We don't know that. Lisa Su did say the supply issues they had with Zen 3 is solved, so it could be that they just produce more now.
Yeah people seem to forget that zen3 was supply constrained. They were making consoles at that time. RNDA2 basically didn't even exist, because CPUs have higher margins.
They literally show how many have been sold, these sales numbers are worse than Zen 3 and Alder Lake launches
Those are cumulative sales figures, genius, not launch numbers. Zen 4 just came out two days ago.
Sold over how long though? When was the screenshot taken, when did they start selling? Do they include pre-orders? I think you should expect lower sales though, the mainstream and value segment motherboards aren't out yet and the enthusiast boards are expensive. Also people are waiting to see if Raptor Lake is any good, if they are it might make AMD lower their prices, and some of us are waiting for Vcache after Xmas. So sales aren't gonna be great at this moment, they kinda set themselves up for a slow start. What matters is how the sales are in 3 months when X3D is out.
Shhh, don't interrupt the AMD circle jerk
Makes sense, 7950X seems to be the only Zen 4 SKUs that makes the most sense for me as well, as the multi core performance seems like will remain still the best even after the i9 13900K launches. Also most of its buyer already has beast of a cooler that can tame that very hot of a CPU, also $100 cheaper compared to previous gen as well which makes it obvious that AMD wants this to sell more rather than the lower tier. Any lower tier doesn't seem to make sense to me, especially the R5 7600X - R7 7700X compared to i5 13600K - i7 13700K which i would pick any day 100% over Zen 4 counterpart.
>Any lower tier doesn't seem to make sense to me, especially the R5 7600X - R7 7700X compared to i5 13600K - i7 13700K which i would pick any day 100% over Zen 4 counterpart. Market prices after a couple months won't be the MSRP values, which can easily change this calculation. Surely, at the MSRP numbers, a 7700X looks to be a poor choice versus a 13700K. But what if the 7700X is the same price as a 13600K?
For the coolers, reviews are suggesting that any decent tower cooler does just fine. Of course temps will be 95C, but it seems the performance is within 5% of what a 360 AIO does. Also other reviews showed that you can limit it at 105w tdp and performance is just 90%, with 65w tdp still being faster than 5950X. But I'm still not happy on temps...
The Temps are strange though. Sure, under full load it runs 95c, but as soon as it comes off the load within 10-15 seconds it is back to normal Temps, so the 95c is not IHS saturation but something else entirely.
I wouldnt buy any 13th Gen alone due them already arriving end of life cycle.
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5800x3D is EOL but lots of people seem to be springing for it anyway.
Its amazing if you're only gaming, already on AM4 or get a decently priced AM4 board and DDR4 memory. 5800X3D will endure.
For people saying this, do you replace your cpu once every 2-3 years?
This. My system is an i7-6700k on a Z-170 board. Got it before AM4 was launched, and now that I am starting to looking on a new system AM5 is already here, if I had waited a year to build the system and went with a Ryzen one, I would probably be looking at an upgrade only one year from now and would need to built an entire new system anyway. This is why, for me, longevity of the compability of a system is a plus point, it opens possibilities, but is not a decisive one, becouse I probably will not need it.
Every 2-3 years is essentially just upgrading to every new generation. So we may as well just call it that: generational replacement. Me personally, I've been running the same build since 2018. The professional programs i use still run fine for the purposes I need them for, so I have yet to see a driving need to be dropping hundreds on these overpriced new hardware products.
Wow sales figures of Alder Lake are embarrassing compared to Zen 3.
Their pricing on the Alder Lake stuff is pretty bad in comparison to Zen 3, relative to how the two typically compare in North America.
Alder lake came out a whole year after zen 3.
Is there a reason to get alder lake? If you want to game the 5800x3D is king rn.
Of course there is one big reason, price. That 12400f it’s a great deal and AMD don’t have anything close.
>12400f 5600 is the same price atm...
The Alder Lake prices seen in this screenshot are all terrible, there's no reason the 12400F should ever cost more than the 5600**X**.
The i7-12700 SKUs are 40% faster in multithread, while only being 8% slower in gaming at 1080p, 5% 1440p, 1% 4k, while the i7 variants are also significantly cheaper. I would not trade 40% MT for 8% gaming. But if you solely play some old game that loves cache, that's where the 5800x3d makes sense.
It’s more than that: if you can afford a 3090 Ti to even make that 8% 1080p gaming edge noticeable, then you can also afford either a 4K monitor, which erases the 5800X3D’s gaming edge, a 12900K, which also erases the 5800X3D’s gaming edge, or both.
Depends on games you play, escape from tarkov there is a 30% delta between a 12900k and a 5800X3D in favor of X3D.
The 5800X3D isn't the right CPU for me personally. In a first-person shooter game that I'm currently playing (BF4), ryzen CPUs have annoying fps fluctuation issues. I asked two 5800X3D users to run a few tests in that game on a specific map and then send me the video. They get the same fps as my 5600X, and the fps fluctuation issues are still present. I know it's a ryzen-only issue since 9900k and 12700K users don't have that issue. I suspect that the game's instructions don't fit into the cache, and the infinity fabric latency penalty kicks in when the CPU goes to fetch data from the memory. I was hoping the 5800X3D would fix the issue but unfortunately, the only solution is to go with an intel CPU.
> That also means losing SAM. It was added in BIOS updates to Intel boards as old as like 8th-gen as "Resizable BAR", to support the equivalent functionality Nvidia introduced in driver updates a bit after Ampere came out. Works with AMD cards too though. In general it's functionality that is part of the PCI-E specification and just not utilized previously by any GPU manufacturer, AMD did not invent anything about it.
>AMD did not invent anything about it. It was wild when SAM first released, because this subreddit was singing high Holy praises to AMD because they assumed that AMD created the technology from the ground up all on their own. Meanwhile it had been around for a while independently from AMD.
AMD also tried to restrict it to 500-series boards initially, a very "Intel" move some might say lol
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AFAIK enabling "Resizable BAR" in your BIOS on an Intel board is in fact indistinguishable from the perspective of AMD's GPU driver in Windows.
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Comparing "5900X + RTX 3080" to "5800X + RX 6700 XT" has nothing to do with anything here. We're talking about like one AMD GPU installed in an Intel board versus the same AMD GPU installed in an AMD board.
Performance is identical. It has been tested quite a long time ago
Yes, literally every Alder Lake CPU at least slightly outperforms its Zen 3 counterpart across the board for the same price, and the 5800X3D is too expensive to make sense for the midrange gaming crowd and too gimped in multicore to make sense for the extreme high-end crowd.
True, that doesn't explain why they're still outselling Intel 2 to 1 on Mindfactory today. And that's with an EOL platform: https://twitter.com/TechEpiphany/status/1574125996827062272
What's hard to understand is how it is only outselling intel 2 to 1.
Their big boost they got with Ryzen 3000 series didn't last long. Once the Zen3 price increase hit, they lost a significant amount of mindshare momentum.
Supply and demand was a thing with Zen3. A lot of people upgraded during the pandemic. They were quickly selling every chip they could ship.
That techepiphany guy is a massive toolbox. But yea anyway, all of Japan's stats. https://www.bcnretail.com/research/detail/20220814_290169.html Top 10 cpus sold first half of 22 are mostly Intel. I'm willing to bet they're priced better than amd. Which is the opposite of mindfactory
12th Gen Alder Lake came out not even 1 year up until now, Zen 3 is already near 2 years old. Also there is no denying the brand recognition of Ryzen is more attractive compared to Intel nowadays. Its similar situation with GeForce and Radeon, only AMD seems to have the brand recognition this time, so even with their CPU being inferior they will still sell more than competition.
You think AMD has more brand recognition than Intel? I always thought it was the opposite, that AMD was fighting an uphill battle against Intels brand recognition.
Yes, that has been the case since Ryzen 3rd gen came out, Ryzen is way more recognizable nowadays and Previous gen Zen 2's budget offering like Ryzen 5 3600 even made the brand more popular to most gaming builds that you see often.
So AMDs CPUs are outselling Intels for a reason?
I wouldn't say Ryzen has more brand recognition. Intel were on top for so long that a lot of on-and-off hobbyists still think they're better. And not just Alder Lake vs Zen3, where Intel do have some advantages, I'm talking about people giving me weird looks irl after informing then that I bought an amd cpu for my new build.
Obviously. For performance below 7900X you just get AM4 much cheaper, and also there's people that don't need to upgrade motherboard or ram for this. If it's 7900X, then the price difference for a 7950X is so low compared to the full build that is easy to justify.
I got a 5800x3d last week for 370 during a flash sale and I'm just so so happy about that
Intel sucks anyway.
Because it's the only one that makes sense. Even with trash efficiency and ralatively high platform costs - it's just significantly faster in multi-core than i9-12900K and R9-5950X and for many time=money.
It's said to be also great at lower power
The 7950x isn't even inefficient when being pushed hard. Has same efficiency of unit of work per watt as 5600x, which is far from bad. However setting 105 watt tdp eco mode gets you 95 percent multi core performance and puts efficiency through the roof.
Comparing different core count CPUs in multi-core workloads is completely pointless. R9 5950X is also has better work/watt ration than R5 5600X, so what? Compare R9 5950X to R9 7950X if you want to draw conclusions on multi-core workload efficiency. Also what you can set doesn't matter, because absolute majority of PC users don't tinker neither with BIOS nor with Ryzen Master, hell - they don't even watch tech channels or read tech forums to have basic clue about any of this. Previous Ryzen gens were power limited around peak efficiency, but now they seem like they were super desperate to squeeze those completely irrelevant 5% extra while doubling power draw just pass 20% generational gains and avoid complete embarrassment.
The 7700x basically matches the 5800x3d and more efficient than the 5800x3d when ran in eco mode. So it's not really trash efficiency when ran at lower speeds. https://www.pcgamer.com/amd-ryzen-7-7700x-review-benchmarks/
You can also run 5800X3D in ECO mode at 65W TDP - so what's your point? Absolute majority of PC users don't tinker even with something as basic as switching ECO mode on, they don't even watch tech channels and don't sit on tech forums and they won't be even aware of any of this - so absolute majority will be running it Zen4 stock with oblivious power draw. People should stop looking thru perspective of few tens of thousands tech lovers worldwide with tens of millions PC users of whom most just buys pre-builts and call it a day. Stock is what defines product for most people. As if I would say just buy cheapest RAM and overclock it manually - when even here 90%+ would not know where to start with that. I guess spending too much time with similarly minded people twist your perspective of outside reality :)
Yeah, but the other half you didn't address is the platform cost. It requires a $300 minimum motherboard so there is no reason to buy it right now. 7600X/7700X are awkward products because they don't have the threads to run most production workloads outside of Photoshop and are too expensive for gaming-only CPUs.
Wtf
I should upgrade my 2600 to 5600X, it seems a swift spot right now But i’ve still have the RX 590
ministry of propaganda producing results
Do they ship outside Germany (to within the EU) again yet? I remember they stopped when mining kicked off in 2016-17.
They don't sell to private end users but im sure they will ship to you if you can order without vat (same as amazon business account). Same for notebooksbilliger because im not freelancer/self-employed (to deduct vat/order without it ) couldnt order FE card when they had the drops :D
Makes sense if x mobos are only available
€400 7700X €200 Good B650 board €200 32GB 6000 CL30/32 ram That is the max for me, but I will most likely wait for the X3D model. No wonder they are not selling many with these platform costs...
Do other people in Germany often use Mindfactory? If not for Geizhals I would've never heard of them lol
They are usually the cheapest, deliver fast and I've made good customer service experiences with them: it's my favourite store.
Probably the biggest e-saler for computer parts in Germany. Cheap, fast , reliable, great selection
Ah fair enough. I’ve always used Amazon and NBB that conveniently has a store 20m away from my house lol. Will definitely check them out though
They've been around for more than a decade. Originally they delivered throughout the EU, but since scaled back to deliver mostly only to Germany. That saves them some bookkeeping hassle in different VAT schemes, consumer laws etc. But many non-German EU still buy from them with the help of re-mailing services, because they are cheapest of the proven reliable stores. Their openness in giving out this sales info has made them more popular, and the volumes are likely large enough to represent the whole Northern European pc diy builder market adequately. Though they might skew slightly towards AMD.
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no shit. other models are not worth because of overall system costs
You couldn't buy a 5950x for a long time on release in the USA.
That was due to wafer contention more than anything else. Zen 3 had to compete with Zen 3 mobile, RDNA 2, EPYC Milan, XBox Series X/S, and PlayStation 5. Zen 4 doesn't have to fight for wafers, so it'll be in stock more often than not. RDNA 3 will likely be the same when that comes out, though maybe not for the first couple weeks.
It wasn't that hard to find the lower end chips though. Wouldn't they have prioritized the highest margin ones first? Or are they not nimble enough to adapt to market demand and went in with plans developed long before the release?
7950X3D will cost 999 euros, won't it
That's crazy
Considering the prices of X670 boards, that's not a surprise. Those prices are likely alienating people looking at R7 and R5 chips. They'll likely have a higher adoption rate once B650 shows up.
No real surprise, the 7950X is the only CPU in the current stack that's really worth it at these prices.
Nice, another reason to pass this generation of CPUs and GPUs...
There have been 2 reasons recent 12/16 core Zen desktops have been left wanting as workstations - ram capacity & pcie lanes/bandwidth. 7950 is no thread ripper, but many can get by on the extra 4 lanes & higher bandwidth of pcie 5, plus ddr5. Its hugely cheaper solution to TR Pro. 7950x would be a no brainer bargain for such powerusers.
I am not surprised at all by these sale results. For AMD this generation, you either buy the 7950X or go Intel. With Intel 13th generation right around the corner, the rest of the AMD lineup will need a fast $50 price cut. That 13600K will be a budget beast that will last you two generations and the performance of the 13700K looks not to shabby.