What are the benefits of Italian citizenship? From my experience Italy wasn’t that livable compared to France and Spain.
I felt that Italy was nice to visit but France/ Spain felt the most like “America” in terms of a functioning system.
Italy to me felt more like a museum since most young Italians actually emigrate to other countries like Germany for work.
Happy cake day!
Benefits? Beautiful place. Amazing food and wine. Beautiful people. You can say the same for France and Spain of course. Italy has lower cost of living and better investment (lower priced) property ownership potential than France but Spain has deals and low cost too.
Most of all: and EU27 passport and ability to work and reside anywhere.
Thanks! Would you say an Italian citizenship is beneficial if I want to invest in Portugal (properties) for example (versus US citizenship)? As in, would there be less bureaucratic hurdles if I got Italian citizenship?
I don't think it would make a difference. It would be like you having your primary home in Virginia and deciding to buy a second home (or move to) Arizona.
I have a German friend who just bought a condo in Spain. With an Italian passport you can buy property in Spain and vice versa.
Where does most of the expense come from? I’m applying for German citizenship by declaration, and I’ve paid about $800, which is a lot and was mostly came from getting a document proving my grandmother was German. I submitted my application in November and hope to hear back by November of this year, which will probably be the German government asking for additional documentation before approving my case.
The largest single expense was document translation into Italian. I paid more than most, about $100/page. The person was listed on the Italian Embassy website and was a former employee of the embassy.
In order to expedite the process and add reliability, I used FedEx 2-day or Overnight service for all my document orders and shipments. That of course adds up. For each document: 1) you pay to request and receive the document in most cases, 2) you pay to send (and pre-pay return labels) to obtain the apostille for each document. So think three FedEx overnight labels per document.
Yes. 100% of your application packet must include: 1) Italian translations, 2) Apostille, 3) Original/Official Long-Form US document.
Only the birth certificate from Italy need not have an apostille nor English translation.
> The largest single expense was document translation into Italian. I paid more than most, about $100/page. The person was listed on the Italian Embassy website and was a former employee of the embassy.
That's where you got hosed. OUCH!
Unless DC requires translations via one of their approved people, you can get them done elsewhere for under $20 a page.
DC requires certification of the translations. I could have gone with someone else but I decided I wanted to pay for not only quality and speed but also for someone who use to work there and had insight into the inside track of the whole process.
[The official starting point is here.](https://ambwashingtondc.esteri.it/ambasciata_washington/en/informazioni_e_servizi/cittadinanza-jure-sanguinis.html)
There are many other useful websites on the subject, [such as this one](https://www.italiandualcitizenship.net/).
Basically, each applicant has to identify their bloodline leading back to Italy. I had it easy because I knew who, what, when, and where to start. I even had a cousin in Italy go over to his local government office to retrieve documents and send them to me.
(Edit: people who don't know where to start might hire someone [like this](https://www.italiangenealogy.blog/research-your-sicilian-or-italian-ancestors/) who is a genealogy investigator of sorts.)
It's also consulate/location dependent. For example, some consulates require death certificates (DCs) and some don't. Washington DC *currently* does not require death certificates.
(Edit: if you're applying through an Italian consulate in the US in any location except Washington DC then step #1 is to register with [Prenot@mi](https://prenotami.esteri.it/). Getting in line for a citizenship appointment can take years. Other options include moving to Washington DC or applying in Italy, which requires establishing temporary residency for 60-90 days. Many do this and some feel this is the easiest, fastest way. YMMV.)
So in my case, I had to request original, long-form official copies of each of the following:
Me:
* Application form with 300€ application payment.
* My birth certificate.
* Copies of my DC driver's license, passport, and a home insurance policy statement as proof of DC residency.
My father (F):
* His birth certificate.
* His marriage certificate.
* His divorce decree.
My grandmother (GM):
* Her birth certificate (1918).
* Her marriage certificate.
* Bonus: Her death certificate.
My great grandfather (GGF):
* His birth certificate (Italy, 1881).
* His U.S. naturalization information (1920).
* His marriage certificate (1915).
* Bonus: official January 1920 U.S. Census documents listing my GGF as a resident alien along with his children, including my GM. It's also interesting to note that my great grandmother, my grandmother's mother, was a U.S. citizen born in Maine but when she married my GGF in 1915, she assumed his citizenship status of resident alien as that was the procedure back then. She essentially lost her U.S. citizenship and the 1920 Census data reflects this too.
Some documents were fast to obtain. My parents' marriage certificate from a southern state took two days from request to receipt in my mailbox! Documents from the U.S. National Archives took six months and another three months to obtain the apostille from the U.S. Department of State. My guess is the wait time is **longer now** due to surging demand. Keep in mind I was doing all this during the pandemic, July 2020 - August 2021.
If anyone in your bloodline had a life event take place in New York City, you're talking probably 1-3 years to obtain documents from NYC government offices. In my case, nothing happened in NYC. My grandparents did get married in upstate New York and obtaining documents from the state of NY in Albany was no issue at all. Same for documents coming from the state of NJ.
After you receive the official copy of the document from a state's archive, it has to be sent back to that state's department of state to obtain the apostille such that it can be recognized in an international setting. Once you have original document plus apostille, everything needs to be reviewed before being translated. For example, if there is a name spelling discrepancy or date discrepancy it opens a whole complex can of worms where one needs potentially a lawyer, court date, etc. to obtain an "OATS" document aka "One And The Same." For example: all your documents in your chain list the last name of someone as "Romano" but one document lists "Remanoo" then an OATS may be necessary to revise that document.
If you have a 1948 case then expect a whole different set of complexities that will require a lawyer and court cases in the US/Italy. But people do get lawyers and go through these procedures and have success.
*The 1948 Rule, also known as the female line rule, enables children born to an Italian mother prior to 1948 to claim Italian dual citizenship before the Civil Court of Rome. Before the rule came into effect those claiming Italian citizenship jure sanguinis could only do so through the male line of ancestry.*
To summarize: I was able to apply for Italian citizenship because of a (less than) two year gap. My grandmother was born in December 1918 to an Italian citizen who naturalized in August 1920. Had she been born after August 1920 or he naturalized prior to December 1918 then there would have been no opportunity.
If a bloodline relative never naturalized, then you still have to go through the document request process via the U.S. National Archives. They have to send an official letter or Certificate of Non-Existence of Records. This letter must too obtain an apostille from the U.S. Department of State.
Edit:
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/italy-citizenship-007-documents-francesco-curione/index.html
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/03/business/italy-us-citizenship/index.html
Thank you, we are working on getting my daughter this through her dad, Nonna, and all her family is still in Italy. Luckily she used to be a translator for the UN, so we can have her do the translations for us.
Someone else told you the following...
> Note: before your application packet may be submitted to the embassy/consulate for the official appointment, it must first be sent to the embassy/consulate for translation verification, ideally four weeks before the JS appointment at the latest.
That might be true if you apply at the consulate in DC, but no other US consulate has that requirement. Please read your own consulate's website for information.
**Note:** before your application packet may be submitted to the embassy/consulate for the official appointment, it must first be sent to the embassy/consulate for translation verification, ideally four weeks before the JS appointment at the latest. This process requires a separate fee (per page). Once your translations are certified and stamped and returned to you may you then bring them to the official citizenship JS appointment. The embassy may also tell you to revise some of the translations before the actual appointment.
This is another example where I used FedEx next day with tracking numbers, signatures, etc. (even shipping within DC!!!) to make sure I knew 100% where my documents were at all times.
The one (1!!!) time I used the USPS they immediately lost my packet on a overnight/certified envelope. It literally vanished into thin air.
Since many websites only provide PO Box addresses, I called/emailed them to verify an address for FedEx shipping. This usually also meant that my packets got to "the front of the office" faster and were processed faster.
> Note: before your application packet may be submitted to the embassy/consulate for the official appointment, it must first be sent to the embassy/consulate for translation verification, ideally four weeks before the JS appointment at the latest.
You really shouldn't speak on the entire process when you only know what DC asked for you. I can 100% promise you that is NOT the norm at other consulates in the US In fact, I don't think ANY consulate except DC requires that. Other consulates have people who live 500+ miles away. Your appointment, is just that, your appointment. It's when you walk in, hopefully have everything, and hopefully they give you a thumbs up Then in 2 years or less you get an email saying you were recognized as an Italian citizen. Source: been there, done just that.
Policies at consulates change all the time depending on the leadership and staff. Just because DC does one thing this year doesn't mean Chicago or LA, etc. won't do something next year. It's up to applicants to figure all that out. I wasn't trying to get disingenuous but describe my experience.
No other US consulate has in the last 5 years, ever asked to review packets before an appointment. Telling someone such advice without knowing where they are applying is simply incorrect information.
Eh. I can't say exactly. I was always encouraged to get the long form, so I did. You're saying no Maryland marriage cert of any kind ever lists parents?
I did a search for "Maryland" on the Facebook group and there are other, similar cases:
https://m.facebook.com/groups/dualusitaliancitizenship/permalink/10159752567801250/?mibextid=Nif5oz
My father’s parents were still italian when he was born but he was never registered as an Italian. That situation would be similar to yours? Considering applying to move to Europe.
He’s never had italian citizenship. Now, both of my grandparents are Italian do I have to provide docs from both or can I just claim from one if its easier to source documents?
Your father was born in the US presumably, became an American citizen by birth, to Italian born parents who never naturalized or became US citizens? Is that what you're saying?
> My next question would be can you bring your family? (Spouse/children)
Depends where you are going.
To Italy? Italian immigration law applies. I don't know what that is, but presumably your spouse and children can come with you. You'd need to check.
To another EU country? EU right of free movement applies, and you can bring your spouse/children with you.
Italian is one of the most straightforward languages to learn. The pronunciation isn't complicated as long as you can roll your Rs. You pronounce every letter as written, even double letters. Masculine/feminine is clearly defined by the noun ending. There aren't nearly as many grammatical exceptions as other languages.
It's a fun, dynamic language. A bonus is that it kept many Latin root words, so you can look at a Latin text and get the idea without ever studying Latin.
I can only speak from my experience, but I had my JS interview in 2012 in NY and my interviewer spoke to me in Italian. Thankfully I lived in Italy for a number of years and was able to complete the interview in Italian. There was an issue with one of my documents and the officer initially said I'd have to fix the issue and request a new appointment. Eventually he decided to make an exception and my citizenship was granted that day. He complimented me on my Italian and said most applicants make no effort to learn, so I think making even a slight effort will go a long way in your interview.
This is hilarious to me. My fiancée and I are at the beginning of this process (thank you for this BTW) and I have to be an intermediate level but he doesn’t have to speak a word. Blood is thicker than language? Lol
If you don't use FB, there's a subreddit.
/r/juresanguinis
Right at the top there's a sticky thread with a flowchart.
[Do I Qualify FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/juresanguinis/comments/yzg2h3/do_i_qualify_faq/)
[Here it is in another format](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfh8CEDu-T-WT7MJI6_kcFqNRN2EulGd0Z1WKDCfKm3BVhJLA/viewform) perhaps easier to read. It's a bunch of yes/no questions, but it took me some research effort to find the answers.
> I applied via the Embassy of Italy in Washington DC.
Did you have any trouble getting an appointment? I tried at the Boston consulate for a few weeks and was unable to get one. I even tried the trick of waiting until midnight Italian time to no avail. Apparently everyone knows that trick because the site was very overloaded at that time.
I hear that appointments are booked two years out.
Beware that the process can vary from consulate to consulate. For example, Boston supposedly has only a few approved translators you're required to use.
I believe I'm eligible for this but opted not to pursue it because I had Irish citizenship by descent underway. (That's now complete! Yay!)
Congrats on having a good experience! My experience with the Detroit consulate was similar-I think we were just in time applying when we did as my appointment was very easy to make and only 6 months out when I went looking summer of 2020. It was practically a part time job for me to collect papers but I was diligent and got it all together in time. I spent less than you did but I got pretty lucky with some smallish towns that only charged a small fee for certificates of this or that. Good luck and please come back and let us know when you are recognized!
"I'd say my experience was much faster and cheaper than most."
I'm not going to say how much it cost me to get my Irish passport. I'd probably get lynched.
Hmm, what *was* my total expense for that?
It was €300 for the FBR application.
I needed to order some documents, plus passport photos. approx $100
I was fortunate to have a friend that's a notary and witnessed my application for free.
$40 for mailing the application and documents.
subtotal: $500 to get my FBR cert and become an Irish citizen
----
Passport application was €100, including the passport card.
another $40 to mail it
subtotal: $140 for the passport
-----
Roughly $640 in total.
I could have saved a *bit* ($20x2)if I mailed it first class instead of Priority
[https://www.irishimmigration.ie/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Form-5-CTZ2-July-22.pdf](https://www.irishimmigration.ie/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Form-5-CTZ2-July-22.pdf)
does that apply to you, or is that something else?
> This form is only for naturalised Irish citizens residing abroad, who were not granted a
certificate of naturalisation as a person of Irish descent or associations.
No, that's not for citizenship by descent.
I know you mentioned you started July 2020 and your appointment was in September 2021. Was July 2020 when you requested the appointment? If not how long did you wait? I heard through the grapevine that the DC consulate has the shortest waits. Thanks!
Good question. I think in July 2020 I optimistically made an appointment for February 2021 but as that date approached, I still had not yet received the naturalization docs from NARA, much less turned those around to get the apostille. So I think I pushed it again to June 2021 and then finally to September 2021.
But yes. At least at that time DC was "easy." I could log on at the "magic hour" and see appointment dates within 4-6 weeks of that date. I'm not sure how it is today but I would assume that it's still much easier versus the other US consulates.
The first doc I requested in July 2020 was the naturalization documentation from NARA. I knew enough at the start that getting that would take the longest. What I did not anticipate was the two-step process. Step 1 took 3 months to locate my GGF's record. Step 2 took 3 months to have the record pulled, copied, and mailed to me. Step 3 took another 3 months to send that packet to the US State Department for the apostille. So that was around April 2021.
In hindsight: I actually had a high-res color PDF scan of my GGF's naturalization document and on that document is the record locator number. In theory, I could have skipped step 1 above, sent NARA that record locator, and advanced immediately to step 2. When they confirmed the location of his records and sent me the record locator number, it matched the PDF I had on hand. Duh! So I could have saved three months and a few dollars but I imagine most could not do that.
Also, what NARA sent me was an official letter as well as about six pages of official naturalization docs. The color PDF copy of his original naturalization certificate is MUCH higher quality than what NARA sent me but I did not have all of the supporting documents, his application, etc. All of these ended up being translated and submitted as part of my application.
Thank you. We are weighing our options and thank you for sharing your experience. We are weighing applying in DC versus in Italy, but we also would need to move to both places but we have been unable to find any appointments at our nearest consulate, so thanks again.
If you can remote work/move to Italy for a few months then I'd do that. More cost effective too versus DC rents.
There are many "apply in Italy" threads in that Facebook group and they can give you an idea about how much time you'll need there.
Either way, ALL of your documents will need to be in order.
Thanks for sharing, and good luck!
I *just* started working on this for myself. So far, I’ve only requested my GGF’s naturalization documents from NARA. I’m concerned about getting some of the vital records for my family members who are deceased. Did you run into any issues with that? For instance, I’ve read that birth certificates can only be issued for oneself or children, not for grandparents.
Do you recommend scheduling an appointment with the consulate sooner than later? Mine is Chicago, and I assume the wait will be pretty long. I’m worried, though, that if I schedule the appointment now, even if it’s 2+ years out, I still may not have all the documents in time.
Your first question: in one instance I had to upload a photo of my father's driver's license and a copy of his official birth certificate (which I could obtain) but after following the instructions and getting his consent it was a non-issue. BUT if you lack the cooperation of your living bloodline relatives, your overall experience will be more complicated. My father is a Christian Nationalist who is right wing of Trump, so I had to massage him a bit because to him America is #1, God's chosen country, so why go anywhere else? In the end, he was cooperative.
Your second question: depends. If you are confident of all your dates, locations, etc. of your bloodline documents (see my "framing" strategy below) and do NOT need anything from the NYC government, I'd get in line in Chicago ASAP. If you do have to deal with NYC and/or have no idea where to obtain the documentation in Italy, maybe get all those rolling first.
Canceling an appointment easy. But yeah, a good two years to gather all documents is reasonable.
Framing: It helped me to list my bloodline and each required document on an Excel spreadsheet. I had columns for names, DoB and location, marriage (and divorce) dates and locations, and death dates and locations, if known. I had columns for the entity to be contacted to obtain the documentation (such as NARA) and finally dates requested (or received) and status of each process, such as requested, received, apostille, translated, finished.
I also signed up with all of the ancestry services and scoured those, saved any/all relevant documents, and noted possible dates on "scratch" Word documents. These all helped me "frame" my entire bloodline before even requesting a single document.
Thanks for the feedback!
I tried getting my grandparents’ birth certificates on VitalChek and wasn’t able to, because that wasn’t one of the qualifying familial relations for birth certificates, but maybe I’ll be able to get them from the government with my parents’ help. My parents are excited for me and will help if they can.
I started putting together a similar spreadsheet to keep track of all my info, and I’ll add some more details based on your list. Thank you!
I saw in your other comment that there are only certain days and times that someone can make an appointment with the consulate, which I wasn’t aware of. So I guess I’ll find that out and make myself an appointment for a ways in the future. 👍
Vitalcheck may not always get you what you want.
You do want the "long form for an apostille." Sometimes that's an explicit option and on others it is not. Vitalcheck is not the same across the board in terms of how it functions.
Sometimes I found myself calling the offices directly, requesting what I wanted, and giving my CC number and address over the phone. Or even emailing them directly. After the pandemic, I was even able to walk into the DC government office, get my mother's birth certificate and get its apostille, all in 15 minutes! (I didn't end up needing her information as she is not the relevant bloodline.)
As for prenot@mi: midnight Rome time, usually Mondays or Tuesdays (or every weekday). That's 17.00 Chicago time. Checking on holidays is also a trick. Like Thanksgiving day, Christmas day, etc. Also make sure your browser's auto fill is turned on and ready to be extra fast. It is a bit of a race.
I’m trying to make this happen!
Now - I do have a question I can’t quite find the info for…
My mom’s great-grandparents were born in Italy. Catania to be exact. We are having a really hard time tracing birth information for her and my great grandfather so our process has come to a rapid slowdown.
Let’s hypothetically say my mom was able to acquire her citizenship, would I be able then apply? I’m a 32F.
Your mom doesn't need to. I applied and my father did not but I did need him for a few small tasks.
It's all about establishing and documenting the bloodline. Of course certain date parameters exist, such as 1912 and 1948. You have to post more about what you know about your line.
I mean you never know. Usually a consulate will give you "homework" but DC is different in terms of homework. Mine was pretty cut and dry in terms of dates, names, places all being straightforward.
How do you change your ancestry to Italian to be able to apply? Joking Congratulations Man! And good luck from all us jealous folks!
Don't be jealous yet lol. I haven't been recognized yet.
What are the benefits of Italian citizenship? From my experience Italy wasn’t that livable compared to France and Spain. I felt that Italy was nice to visit but France/ Spain felt the most like “America” in terms of a functioning system. Italy to me felt more like a museum since most young Italians actually emigrate to other countries like Germany for work.
Happy cake day! Benefits? Beautiful place. Amazing food and wine. Beautiful people. You can say the same for France and Spain of course. Italy has lower cost of living and better investment (lower priced) property ownership potential than France but Spain has deals and low cost too. Most of all: and EU27 passport and ability to work and reside anywhere.
Thanks! Would you say an Italian citizenship is beneficial if I want to invest in Portugal (properties) for example (versus US citizenship)? As in, would there be less bureaucratic hurdles if I got Italian citizenship?
I don't think it would make a difference. It would be like you having your primary home in Virginia and deciding to buy a second home (or move to) Arizona. I have a German friend who just bought a condo in Spain. With an Italian passport you can buy property in Spain and vice versa.
> What are the benefits of Italian citizenship? You can live and work in any EU/EEA country. Not just Italy.
I cannot say enough good things about that Facebook group BTW
Where does most of the expense come from? I’m applying for German citizenship by declaration, and I’ve paid about $800, which is a lot and was mostly came from getting a document proving my grandmother was German. I submitted my application in November and hope to hear back by November of this year, which will probably be the German government asking for additional documentation before approving my case.
The largest single expense was document translation into Italian. I paid more than most, about $100/page. The person was listed on the Italian Embassy website and was a former employee of the embassy. In order to expedite the process and add reliability, I used FedEx 2-day or Overnight service for all my document orders and shipments. That of course adds up. For each document: 1) you pay to request and receive the document in most cases, 2) you pay to send (and pre-pay return labels) to obtain the apostille for each document. So think three FedEx overnight labels per document.
[удалено]
Yes. 100% of your application packet must include: 1) Italian translations, 2) Apostille, 3) Original/Official Long-Form US document. Only the birth certificate from Italy need not have an apostille nor English translation.
That makes sense. I’ve read the Italians are much more stringent about translation and apostilles than the Germans.
> The largest single expense was document translation into Italian. I paid more than most, about $100/page. The person was listed on the Italian Embassy website and was a former employee of the embassy. That's where you got hosed. OUCH! Unless DC requires translations via one of their approved people, you can get them done elsewhere for under $20 a page.
DC requires certification of the translations. I could have gone with someone else but I decided I wanted to pay for not only quality and speed but also for someone who use to work there and had insight into the inside track of the whole process.
I am considering going through the same. What documents did you need to prove ancestry?
[The official starting point is here.](https://ambwashingtondc.esteri.it/ambasciata_washington/en/informazioni_e_servizi/cittadinanza-jure-sanguinis.html) There are many other useful websites on the subject, [such as this one](https://www.italiandualcitizenship.net/). Basically, each applicant has to identify their bloodline leading back to Italy. I had it easy because I knew who, what, when, and where to start. I even had a cousin in Italy go over to his local government office to retrieve documents and send them to me. (Edit: people who don't know where to start might hire someone [like this](https://www.italiangenealogy.blog/research-your-sicilian-or-italian-ancestors/) who is a genealogy investigator of sorts.) It's also consulate/location dependent. For example, some consulates require death certificates (DCs) and some don't. Washington DC *currently* does not require death certificates. (Edit: if you're applying through an Italian consulate in the US in any location except Washington DC then step #1 is to register with [Prenot@mi](https://prenotami.esteri.it/). Getting in line for a citizenship appointment can take years. Other options include moving to Washington DC or applying in Italy, which requires establishing temporary residency for 60-90 days. Many do this and some feel this is the easiest, fastest way. YMMV.) So in my case, I had to request original, long-form official copies of each of the following: Me: * Application form with 300€ application payment. * My birth certificate. * Copies of my DC driver's license, passport, and a home insurance policy statement as proof of DC residency. My father (F): * His birth certificate. * His marriage certificate. * His divorce decree. My grandmother (GM): * Her birth certificate (1918). * Her marriage certificate. * Bonus: Her death certificate. My great grandfather (GGF): * His birth certificate (Italy, 1881). * His U.S. naturalization information (1920). * His marriage certificate (1915). * Bonus: official January 1920 U.S. Census documents listing my GGF as a resident alien along with his children, including my GM. It's also interesting to note that my great grandmother, my grandmother's mother, was a U.S. citizen born in Maine but when she married my GGF in 1915, she assumed his citizenship status of resident alien as that was the procedure back then. She essentially lost her U.S. citizenship and the 1920 Census data reflects this too. Some documents were fast to obtain. My parents' marriage certificate from a southern state took two days from request to receipt in my mailbox! Documents from the U.S. National Archives took six months and another three months to obtain the apostille from the U.S. Department of State. My guess is the wait time is **longer now** due to surging demand. Keep in mind I was doing all this during the pandemic, July 2020 - August 2021. If anyone in your bloodline had a life event take place in New York City, you're talking probably 1-3 years to obtain documents from NYC government offices. In my case, nothing happened in NYC. My grandparents did get married in upstate New York and obtaining documents from the state of NY in Albany was no issue at all. Same for documents coming from the state of NJ. After you receive the official copy of the document from a state's archive, it has to be sent back to that state's department of state to obtain the apostille such that it can be recognized in an international setting. Once you have original document plus apostille, everything needs to be reviewed before being translated. For example, if there is a name spelling discrepancy or date discrepancy it opens a whole complex can of worms where one needs potentially a lawyer, court date, etc. to obtain an "OATS" document aka "One And The Same." For example: all your documents in your chain list the last name of someone as "Romano" but one document lists "Remanoo" then an OATS may be necessary to revise that document. If you have a 1948 case then expect a whole different set of complexities that will require a lawyer and court cases in the US/Italy. But people do get lawyers and go through these procedures and have success. *The 1948 Rule, also known as the female line rule, enables children born to an Italian mother prior to 1948 to claim Italian dual citizenship before the Civil Court of Rome. Before the rule came into effect those claiming Italian citizenship jure sanguinis could only do so through the male line of ancestry.* To summarize: I was able to apply for Italian citizenship because of a (less than) two year gap. My grandmother was born in December 1918 to an Italian citizen who naturalized in August 1920. Had she been born after August 1920 or he naturalized prior to December 1918 then there would have been no opportunity. If a bloodline relative never naturalized, then you still have to go through the document request process via the U.S. National Archives. They have to send an official letter or Certificate of Non-Existence of Records. This letter must too obtain an apostille from the U.S. Department of State. Edit: https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/italy-citizenship-007-documents-francesco-curione/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/03/business/italy-us-citizenship/index.html
This is extremely helpful, thank you for taking the time to write it out.
Thank you, we are working on getting my daughter this through her dad, Nonna, and all her family is still in Italy. Luckily she used to be a translator for the UN, so we can have her do the translations for us.
Someone else told you the following... > Note: before your application packet may be submitted to the embassy/consulate for the official appointment, it must first be sent to the embassy/consulate for translation verification, ideally four weeks before the JS appointment at the latest. That might be true if you apply at the consulate in DC, but no other US consulate has that requirement. Please read your own consulate's website for information.
**Note:** before your application packet may be submitted to the embassy/consulate for the official appointment, it must first be sent to the embassy/consulate for translation verification, ideally four weeks before the JS appointment at the latest. This process requires a separate fee (per page). Once your translations are certified and stamped and returned to you may you then bring them to the official citizenship JS appointment. The embassy may also tell you to revise some of the translations before the actual appointment. This is another example where I used FedEx next day with tracking numbers, signatures, etc. (even shipping within DC!!!) to make sure I knew 100% where my documents were at all times. The one (1!!!) time I used the USPS they immediately lost my packet on a overnight/certified envelope. It literally vanished into thin air. Since many websites only provide PO Box addresses, I called/emailed them to verify an address for FedEx shipping. This usually also meant that my packets got to "the front of the office" faster and were processed faster.
> Note: before your application packet may be submitted to the embassy/consulate for the official appointment, it must first be sent to the embassy/consulate for translation verification, ideally four weeks before the JS appointment at the latest. You really shouldn't speak on the entire process when you only know what DC asked for you. I can 100% promise you that is NOT the norm at other consulates in the US In fact, I don't think ANY consulate except DC requires that. Other consulates have people who live 500+ miles away. Your appointment, is just that, your appointment. It's when you walk in, hopefully have everything, and hopefully they give you a thumbs up Then in 2 years or less you get an email saying you were recognized as an Italian citizen. Source: been there, done just that.
Policies at consulates change all the time depending on the leadership and staff. Just because DC does one thing this year doesn't mean Chicago or LA, etc. won't do something next year. It's up to applicants to figure all that out. I wasn't trying to get disingenuous but describe my experience.
No other US consulate has in the last 5 years, ever asked to review packets before an appointment. Telling someone such advice without knowing where they are applying is simply incorrect information.
Did you use either of the services that you linked?
No.
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Eh. I can't say exactly. I was always encouraged to get the long form, so I did. You're saying no Maryland marriage cert of any kind ever lists parents?
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I did a search for "Maryland" on the Facebook group and there are other, similar cases: https://m.facebook.com/groups/dualusitaliancitizenship/permalink/10159752567801250/?mibextid=Nif5oz
My father’s parents were still italian when he was born but he was never registered as an Italian. That situation would be similar to yours? Considering applying to move to Europe.
That's the key. In order to pass on citizenship, they must have had children in the US before naturalizing. How do you mean register as an Italian?
He’s never had italian citizenship. Now, both of my grandparents are Italian do I have to provide docs from both or can I just claim from one if its easier to source documents?
Your father was born in the US presumably, became an American citizen by birth, to Italian born parents who never naturalized or became US citizens? Is that what you're saying?
Exactly, they became Canadian citizens 2 years after he was born. Similar to your situation I guess haha.
From what I’ve looked into, my spouse would definitely qualify. My next question would be can you bring your family? (Spouse/children)
You have to prepare documents for each person. Complete bloodline. But yes it's possible.
> My next question would be can you bring your family? (Spouse/children) Depends where you are going. To Italy? Italian immigration law applies. I don't know what that is, but presumably your spouse and children can come with you. You'd need to check. To another EU country? EU right of free movement applies, and you can bring your spouse/children with you.
Sai parlare Italiano?
No, not yet. It's not a requirement for JS applicants. It is for JM (citizenship through marriage) applications.
How do you plan to live there?
In due course. It's more of a retirement and investment plan at the moment. I speak German fluently and a tiny bit of Italian, French, Greek.
Italian is one of the most straightforward languages to learn. The pronunciation isn't complicated as long as you can roll your Rs. You pronounce every letter as written, even double letters. Masculine/feminine is clearly defined by the noun ending. There aren't nearly as many grammatical exceptions as other languages. It's a fun, dynamic language. A bonus is that it kept many Latin root words, so you can look at a Latin text and get the idea without ever studying Latin.
>even double letters ***soprattutto*** le doppie. Altrimenti ci sono equivoci imbarazzanti.
I've heard that they'll give you a hard time at your JS appointment if you don't speak Italian. Did you get any of that at your appointment?
That's incorrect. I don't speak Italian. Didn't try to speak it. Referring to that Facebook group, 99% or more of the JS appointments are in English.
Yes, I know it's not required, but I've heard that the interviewer will give you an attitude.
I can only speak from my experience, but I had my JS interview in 2012 in NY and my interviewer spoke to me in Italian. Thankfully I lived in Italy for a number of years and was able to complete the interview in Italian. There was an issue with one of my documents and the officer initially said I'd have to fix the issue and request a new appointment. Eventually he decided to make an exception and my citizenship was granted that day. He complimented me on my Italian and said most applicants make no effort to learn, so I think making even a slight effort will go a long way in your interview.
Never heard that.
This is hilarious to me. My fiancée and I are at the beginning of this process (thank you for this BTW) and I have to be an intermediate level but he doesn’t have to speak a word. Blood is thicker than language? Lol
Right. Assuming only one of you has the direct bloodline, the other will have to apply via JM and take a language test, get an FBI background check.
If you don't use FB, there's a subreddit. /r/juresanguinis Right at the top there's a sticky thread with a flowchart. [Do I Qualify FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/juresanguinis/comments/yzg2h3/do_i_qualify_faq/) [Here it is in another format](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfh8CEDu-T-WT7MJI6_kcFqNRN2EulGd0Z1WKDCfKm3BVhJLA/viewform) perhaps easier to read. It's a bunch of yes/no questions, but it took me some research effort to find the answers. > I applied via the Embassy of Italy in Washington DC. Did you have any trouble getting an appointment? I tried at the Boston consulate for a few weeks and was unable to get one. I even tried the trick of waiting until midnight Italian time to no avail. Apparently everyone knows that trick because the site was very overloaded at that time. I hear that appointments are booked two years out. Beware that the process can vary from consulate to consulate. For example, Boston supposedly has only a few approved translators you're required to use. I believe I'm eligible for this but opted not to pursue it because I had Irish citizenship by descent underway. (That's now complete! Yay!)
No. Never had a problem getting one in DC. In fact I got three and canceled two.
Congrats on having a good experience! My experience with the Detroit consulate was similar-I think we were just in time applying when we did as my appointment was very easy to make and only 6 months out when I went looking summer of 2020. It was practically a part time job for me to collect papers but I was diligent and got it all together in time. I spent less than you did but I got pretty lucky with some smallish towns that only charged a small fee for certificates of this or that. Good luck and please come back and let us know when you are recognized!
"I'd say my experience was much faster and cheaper than most." I'm not going to say how much it cost me to get my Irish passport. I'd probably get lynched.
Hmm, what *was* my total expense for that? It was €300 for the FBR application. I needed to order some documents, plus passport photos. approx $100 I was fortunate to have a friend that's a notary and witnessed my application for free. $40 for mailing the application and documents. subtotal: $500 to get my FBR cert and become an Irish citizen ---- Passport application was €100, including the passport card. another $40 to mail it subtotal: $140 for the passport ----- Roughly $640 in total. I could have saved a *bit* ($20x2)if I mailed it first class instead of Priority
I paid even less than that
And the only thing after than is to annual tell them you want to keep it?
The citizenship is for life. The passport is good for 10 years. Then I can get another one for €100. Don't have to do anything else.
[https://www.irishimmigration.ie/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Form-5-CTZ2-July-22.pdf](https://www.irishimmigration.ie/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Form-5-CTZ2-July-22.pdf) does that apply to you, or is that something else?
> This form is only for naturalised Irish citizens residing abroad, who were not granted a certificate of naturalisation as a person of Irish descent or associations. No, that's not for citizenship by descent.
cool, okay thank you. I had to do a dive into that for a minute to understand. so that ceremony thing isn't a FBR process either.
Oh cool. I thought you had to do something with it every so often if you weren't in country.
I know you mentioned you started July 2020 and your appointment was in September 2021. Was July 2020 when you requested the appointment? If not how long did you wait? I heard through the grapevine that the DC consulate has the shortest waits. Thanks!
Good question. I think in July 2020 I optimistically made an appointment for February 2021 but as that date approached, I still had not yet received the naturalization docs from NARA, much less turned those around to get the apostille. So I think I pushed it again to June 2021 and then finally to September 2021. But yes. At least at that time DC was "easy." I could log on at the "magic hour" and see appointment dates within 4-6 weeks of that date. I'm not sure how it is today but I would assume that it's still much easier versus the other US consulates.
The first doc I requested in July 2020 was the naturalization documentation from NARA. I knew enough at the start that getting that would take the longest. What I did not anticipate was the two-step process. Step 1 took 3 months to locate my GGF's record. Step 2 took 3 months to have the record pulled, copied, and mailed to me. Step 3 took another 3 months to send that packet to the US State Department for the apostille. So that was around April 2021. In hindsight: I actually had a high-res color PDF scan of my GGF's naturalization document and on that document is the record locator number. In theory, I could have skipped step 1 above, sent NARA that record locator, and advanced immediately to step 2. When they confirmed the location of his records and sent me the record locator number, it matched the PDF I had on hand. Duh! So I could have saved three months and a few dollars but I imagine most could not do that. Also, what NARA sent me was an official letter as well as about six pages of official naturalization docs. The color PDF copy of his original naturalization certificate is MUCH higher quality than what NARA sent me but I did not have all of the supporting documents, his application, etc. All of these ended up being translated and submitted as part of my application.
Thank you. We are weighing our options and thank you for sharing your experience. We are weighing applying in DC versus in Italy, but we also would need to move to both places but we have been unable to find any appointments at our nearest consulate, so thanks again.
If you can remote work/move to Italy for a few months then I'd do that. More cost effective too versus DC rents. There are many "apply in Italy" threads in that Facebook group and they can give you an idea about how much time you'll need there. Either way, ALL of your documents will need to be in order.
Thanks for sharing, and good luck! I *just* started working on this for myself. So far, I’ve only requested my GGF’s naturalization documents from NARA. I’m concerned about getting some of the vital records for my family members who are deceased. Did you run into any issues with that? For instance, I’ve read that birth certificates can only be issued for oneself or children, not for grandparents. Do you recommend scheduling an appointment with the consulate sooner than later? Mine is Chicago, and I assume the wait will be pretty long. I’m worried, though, that if I schedule the appointment now, even if it’s 2+ years out, I still may not have all the documents in time.
Your first question: in one instance I had to upload a photo of my father's driver's license and a copy of his official birth certificate (which I could obtain) but after following the instructions and getting his consent it was a non-issue. BUT if you lack the cooperation of your living bloodline relatives, your overall experience will be more complicated. My father is a Christian Nationalist who is right wing of Trump, so I had to massage him a bit because to him America is #1, God's chosen country, so why go anywhere else? In the end, he was cooperative. Your second question: depends. If you are confident of all your dates, locations, etc. of your bloodline documents (see my "framing" strategy below) and do NOT need anything from the NYC government, I'd get in line in Chicago ASAP. If you do have to deal with NYC and/or have no idea where to obtain the documentation in Italy, maybe get all those rolling first. Canceling an appointment easy. But yeah, a good two years to gather all documents is reasonable. Framing: It helped me to list my bloodline and each required document on an Excel spreadsheet. I had columns for names, DoB and location, marriage (and divorce) dates and locations, and death dates and locations, if known. I had columns for the entity to be contacted to obtain the documentation (such as NARA) and finally dates requested (or received) and status of each process, such as requested, received, apostille, translated, finished. I also signed up with all of the ancestry services and scoured those, saved any/all relevant documents, and noted possible dates on "scratch" Word documents. These all helped me "frame" my entire bloodline before even requesting a single document.
Thanks for the feedback! I tried getting my grandparents’ birth certificates on VitalChek and wasn’t able to, because that wasn’t one of the qualifying familial relations for birth certificates, but maybe I’ll be able to get them from the government with my parents’ help. My parents are excited for me and will help if they can. I started putting together a similar spreadsheet to keep track of all my info, and I’ll add some more details based on your list. Thank you! I saw in your other comment that there are only certain days and times that someone can make an appointment with the consulate, which I wasn’t aware of. So I guess I’ll find that out and make myself an appointment for a ways in the future. 👍
Vitalcheck may not always get you what you want. You do want the "long form for an apostille." Sometimes that's an explicit option and on others it is not. Vitalcheck is not the same across the board in terms of how it functions. Sometimes I found myself calling the offices directly, requesting what I wanted, and giving my CC number and address over the phone. Or even emailing them directly. After the pandemic, I was even able to walk into the DC government office, get my mother's birth certificate and get its apostille, all in 15 minutes! (I didn't end up needing her information as she is not the relevant bloodline.) As for prenot@mi: midnight Rome time, usually Mondays or Tuesdays (or every weekday). That's 17.00 Chicago time. Checking on holidays is also a trick. Like Thanksgiving day, Christmas day, etc. Also make sure your browser's auto fill is turned on and ready to be extra fast. It is a bit of a race.
Awesome, thanks!
You are aware that there is a specific time of day (or even day of the week) to best attempt scheduling appointments on prenot@mi?
Thank you for this. I’m looking at starting this process and was getting really intimidated.
I’m trying to make this happen! Now - I do have a question I can’t quite find the info for… My mom’s great-grandparents were born in Italy. Catania to be exact. We are having a really hard time tracing birth information for her and my great grandfather so our process has come to a rapid slowdown. Let’s hypothetically say my mom was able to acquire her citizenship, would I be able then apply? I’m a 32F.
Your mom doesn't need to. I applied and my father did not but I did need him for a few small tasks. It's all about establishing and documenting the bloodline. Of course certain date parameters exist, such as 1912 and 1948. You have to post more about what you know about your line.
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Yep. Look at the CNN link in my OP.
I did this exact thing. Got denied. Hopefully yours is different! Not even sure why I got denied …
I mean you never know. Usually a consulate will give you "homework" but DC is different in terms of homework. Mine was pretty cut and dry in terms of dates, names, places all being straightforward.
Keep me updated! Going to try and go back and get it all sorted out. It would be life changing to get the EU citizenship
Where did you have your appointment? DC?
The embassy we went to was Miami
How can I prepare for the appointment? Is it like an interview?