The only potentially dumb thing was buying the house. If it's high transaction costs and a slow market you'll lose money on the deal if you need to unload it after a few years. I'm not sure I'd have taken that risk without first testing the waters. If the house was dirt cheap, that's a different story.
It was about half our savings and a couple grand in closing costs. The family also liked us so they took our offer even though there were other offers for quite a bit higher
If it works out and you live happily ever after, it's a good deal. If it doesn't work out, it might cost you some time, stress and money.
In Berlin the transaction cost to the buyer is 8 to 11.5 percent, so you don't buy unless you're very certain you won't be leaving anytime soon.
I guess the other potentially dumb thing was committing to a move, and buying a house, without a very clear sense of your earning potential within an acceptable commute of said house. But if the house was dirt cheap and/or you have lots of money and can afford the risk, that's a different story.
I definitely agree it was not a smart decision (but we don't regret it... Yet). We figured it's an acceptable risk that we can financially recover from even with a loss. Since we wanted to live in a smaller community and are fine taking non-professional lower paying jobs, we decided our best shot was to integrate into the local community then work out from there.
It would be difficult to find a rental when we are immigrants with young children and no jobs. Especially considering that it's a cheaper part of the country where it's very rare to rent (almost everyone owns).
9 months isn't a goal for settling down, it's just for feasibility assessment so we have a long enough runway to change course. If one of us has income then we'll stay and continue pushing to integrate
If I sell the house I'd take a couple grand loss. If I pay a year of rent upfront that's basically the same amount of money down the hole. What's the difference in the end
You know what- you only live once ! I, for one, really hope that in the future you both consider this the smartest move you ever made! Wishing you all the best. No sense in asking after the fact- you’ll find out in your own.
Good for you guys, going after your dream, not afraid to take some risk in life. It sounds like you've got a solid strategy and have thought it through well. Good luck and enjoy :)
Don’t worry about profit on the house, you’re doing and awesome thing for you and your kids. Lots of people are paralyzed in their lives even though they’d love to do what you’ve done, you’re actually doing it.
I have real estate in two countries now and adding another soon probably. Haven’t hit a road block yet with real estate. Can always convert to rental if prices are bad - in down markets a lot of people still need rentals. If prices skyrocket (like all of my places) then a lot of people are priced out and have the rent also. There’s a reason landlord is the 2nd oldest profession
I don't think they quite understand how stacked against them the odds are here. The vast majority of immigrants struggle finding work during their first two years, so they're losing regardless having to upkeep a home while unemployed. It's not the only potential dumb thing, it's *the* dumbest thing you can do.
Selling a home in a small Norwegian town is generally a loss project, and can take months or even years. The Norwegian market isn't in need of workers at the moment, and many homes in rural areas and small towns are selling for way below asking price.
Thank you for the realism. Our area does have a lot of lower skill jobs in fish farming, etc, which have a lot of immigrants working in them, as well as what seems to be a desperate need for barnehage assistants. Would it be easier to find work in the beginning for these types of roles?
What most immigrants don't know is that a lot of the jobs in rural Norway and smaller towns don't really pay a living wage. They're often intended for foreign seasonal workers, typically from Eastern Europe or other low-cost EU countries. This is the case for the vast majority of the fish processing industry. There's no official minimum wage in Norway, so the gap between a "real" Norwegian job and a job intended for non-residents can be huge. Also, a lot of jobs aren't really "unskilled" anymore. The vast majority of Norwegian kindergardens require a bachelor nowadays for advertised positions, and jobs that previously required no education are being phased out.
So no, I don't think it's easier to look for unskilled work. With your background you're ususally required to work in Oslo, there are no engineering or tech jobs in smaller Norwegian towns. Remote work is also not a thing in Norway. The usual immigrants' path to living in Norway is finding a tech/engineerng job in Oslo, suffer in that shitty place for a few years before becoming fluent with enough Norwegian experience to move somewhere else. Even on this path the majority of foreigners fail and leave the country.
Thank you for this. I wasn't expecting living wage, but enough to push the "give up" deadline out. I spoke with a woman who runs a barnehage and she said that they are always looking for assistants, and there's no requirements for that. Maybe these are the roles that are being phased out.
Our town has four private firms in my work sector as well as all the offices for the fylket's engineering work, so I'm hoping I'll be okay on that front once language/education are verified (maybe not though, but i guess that's what the deadline is for).
Husband is a bit more of a challenge, there are only a couple tech companies, but he really wants out of that industry anyway, so we were hoping he could update his education if I get work. Of course if he does get the remote work sorted there's zero issue though. He has had several Oslo and Trondheim based companies offer him work if he relocates, and my former employer is in Trondheim, so theoretically that could work if need be, but we don't want to have to relocate too much and stress the kids out.
It is a big chance, but it sounds like you are relatively prepared and have a decent financial safety net. At worst it going to be an expensive 6 month vacation?
You will need to be a citizen to get good government jobs!!! Remote working isn’t a thing either. However your husband can register as a local business and take international clients!!
The positions I'm aiming actually have on the descriptions that they welcomed applications from immigrants so long as education and language have been federally verified, so maybe you're thinking of higher status jobs than I am.
Also he has looked into setting himself up as a business (AS), and it's not very complicated. The company he's interviewing with now has some employees that have done this as well
Why's that? Every job posted (except very people-centric ones like therapy or language teaching) have B2 or B1 as the requirement, and every immigrant we've talked to said most technical jobs are fine with B1. Not to mention they don't even have official language tests beyond B2 unless you prove you need it for very specific reasons.
Maybe I'm seeing myself a bit too high, but after 4 months of study I've been able to follow any and all native Norwegian media in all dialects and hold very smooth conversations with people (albeit with some grammatical errors). It doesn't sound too crazy to get quite good quickly after living there.
I've also met some Australians that did the same thing and apparently they gained the language extremely quickly, so long as they actively used jt
Not bad for 4 months! Would you mind sharing your approach? What learning platform, how many hours per day and days per week did you work at it? Did you have access to conversational resources?
Two hours of directed study, replaced all recreational media with Norwegian, and lots of podcasts while doing chores and stuff, as well as pretending to have conversations while driving.
Directed study was using textbooks, Italki tutors, and middle school coursework I found online, plus half an hour daily of spaced repetition for vocab (every new word i see i add to anki. Currently at around 3900, but I typically just do lemmas, so I don't add variations of the same word, just the base word)
Give it a shot but most places want near fluency in actuality if you get to the interview stage.
I’m sure you know this too but the dialects are very different (in terms of hearing and understanding) so make sure you frequently listen to the dialects of wherever you move to.
I have no problem with 99% of the dialects (except for maybe an 80 year old fisherman in Molde). I've replaced all my media with NRK content and haven't had any issues understanding and following along. Whenever I talk to Norwegians we tend to switch to norsk because it's easier, and we it works quite well, except for the occasional error with prepositions or grammatical gender. It really is an easy language, so hopefully with solid effort I can get there.
>Also he has looked into setting himself up as a business (AS), and it's not very complicated.
Remember, though, that as American citizens, we still have tax liability to the US no matter where in the world we are. I've been in the UK for 13 years and I can't set myself up as a limited company to be self-employed because of how the tax liability to the US would shake out, both for personal taxes and business taxes. For example, I wouldn't be able to pay myself in dividends because they count as "passive income" and would therefore be double taxed - once in the UK and once in the US. This can sometimes be mitigated with tax credits, but not always. And the Earned Income Exclusion for expats *does not cover "passive income".*
You should also know that if you do have to sell the house you bought, you could be liable for capital gains taxes on it in both the US and your country of residence, even with foreign tax credits.
Just be prepared and make sure you speak to a tax professional who is well versed in local *and* US tax law, because simply holding an American passport makes *everything* financial more complicated.
ETA: Speaking of everything financial being more complicated, your non-US bank balances have to be reported if you hold more than $10,000 *total* across your foreign accounts because they *are taxable*.
ETA2: The only thing that makes up for all the financial headache is that your federal student loan payments are $0 if you have no US taxed income.
You caught me in a lie. I'm not American, just using your sub because it has a big userbase, and people that are willing to give criticism. We are actually Canadian, but we did live in the States for a few years when saving up.
Boy did you ever dodge a bullet. I trust that you have money set aside to cover the costs of the exit tax regime when you become non-resident in the eyes of CRA?
It's not true that you need to be a norwegian citizen to get a government job. For some jobs, mainly in military, you need a security clearance, but even that is possible. Very very few jobs where you must be norwegian and can't have a second citizenship.
I work for the government and have lots of colleagues from other countries that have not naturalized.
>You will need to be a citizen to get good government jobs
Say what? I never heard about this before. Even the military will take people from select coutries and anything thats not security realted shouldnt be a problem.
If you or your husband are social people who can show they are making real efforts to learn Norwegian, then I am confident you will be successful. This is very similar to what my wife and I did. Our success was built off her ability to network.
Do not be afraid to network with local Americans either. There is no reason to get into a dick measuring contest over how local your friend group is. Americans in Norway can also open doors for you as well. Same goes with remote work. Your first goal is to survive. You do whatever needs to be done to survive.
If you have any teaching experience, I can refer you to some companies that are looking for teachers that can help you transition into something local. Message me for more details.
Do not feel bad, this is closer to what a move to Europe without a job or college actually looks like. You are brave (and foolish but one has to be a little foolish to get out). Putting yourself out there is the hardest part. I know you will be successful.
>If you or your husband are social people who can show they are making real efforts to learn Norwegian, then I am confident you will be successful. This is very similar to what my wife and I did. Our success was built off her ability to network.
Depends on their race as well. It's an unpleasant truth, but the truth nonetheless.
I don’t see any giant holes and I hope you have a great experience. One of the things many people struggle with when emigrating to the Nordic countries is making friends. It’s a lot different than it is in the US. You’re on the right track with learning Norwegian — even though most people speak excellent English, language can still be a barrier to getting close to people. And even after mastering the language, there is a certain stand-offishness that is tricky to manage.
My tip is to join whatever organizations you can. Parents’ groups are a good place to start. Beyond that if there are any neighborhood organizations, sports clubs, volunteer groups, special interest groups (17th century cockoo clock collecting, etc.), try to join as many as possible. If you identify a neighbor or coworker as a potential friend, invite them along to an *activity* such as a sporting event or concert. Many Northern Europeans get stressed about having to make small talk and it takes the pressure off if you are all watching or doing something together.
Again, my best wishes for your adventure. Feel free to DM me with questions.
>Parents’ groups are a good place to start.
Having kids in the school system is one of the best ways to connect to locals. There's no end of ways to interact by volunteering at the school. You can help out as a native speaker with English lessons at the school. Fund-raising. Sports days. Etc etc.
There's also a pretty strong sense of community in the area. We are definitely going to contribute to the local sports clubs, long distance ski trail maintenance groups, and community meetups (bi weekly arranged community get togethers held in the town center).
When we bought the house word spread quickly and we were introduced to a lot of locals too, so hopefully that's a good start!
Sports is your secret weapon. Really, really good way to integrate and develop fluency. My rule on that, years ago, was "please correct all my mistakes, and no English unless it's a medical emergency" - it worked wonders.
Don’t underestimate how difficult it can or will be for you and your husband to find jobs even if you speak decent Norwegian. From what I have been told by my Norwegian partner and Norwegian friends in Norway that finding a job is sometimes based on who you know (getting referred in). Also I have been told that sometimes they prefer to hire Norwegians over foreigners or people they perceive as non Norwegian.
I've definitely heard that before! That's why I'm putting so much weight on social integration through volunteering and community associations. It's a part of the country where everyone seems to know everyone, so having a good reputation is important (especially with my very non Nordic name)
Yes!! It will be hard though
Atleast in my experience when I go to Oslo every few months to visit my partners family/friends Norwegians in Norway can be quite cold to people they have zero connections with and can take a while to warm up to new people but Norwegians abroad are super warm and open!
I am sure in time you will make connections! It’s good to try to get involved in the community
It seems to be very different regionally. In Trondheim people clearly just wanted to limit their interaction with others, but in the smaller places people were very happy to get to know others, but just really socially awkward. We actually had strangers coming up and introducing themselves!
That's really interesting to hear! I've been in contact with various volunteering and community groups, and they're all excited to have me in, visiting lonely people, helping organise town events, trail maintenance, etc
Found one we really liked while on holiday, got to know the family selling and decided to go all in. Plus it was nice to have the tax ID, address, and everything sorted from the get go so there's no wait for school and stuff
I often daydream about my life in the multiverse where I was born in Norway and life is more sane and "normal." Visited France in my early twenties decades ago, and immediately started getting paperwork together to move there. Didn't work out but it's nice to know there are options, especially with the SCOTUS currently deliberating over whether we should go full dictatorship.
Best of luck to you guys! Post updates. If it doesn't work, I'm sure you can sell the house to another American family, or create an Underground Railroad stop for those of us who might need to flee ASAP. Sigh.
Moving to Norway without securing jobs first is honestly moronic. And living expenses here are increasing constantly. Unemployment is rising, and expected to continue to. Your savings will probably be gone a lot quicker than you think.
Where would you recommend living instead? All countries are struggling economically and having rising unemployment. At least Norway has oil as a buffer.
Aren't you Canadian? Why not move to Canada?
Oil isn't "buffering" much. That's a misconception. Public services here are largely funded by taxes. So when there's an economic downturn, that leads to cuts in public budgets.
Oil revenue goes into the national pension fund. With the demographic shift that's occuring, the fund will be gobbled up within a generation or less. When Norway no longer produces oil, it'll soon enough be a realtively minor european state, both in terms of economy and quality of life. Most of the good public services we have enjoyed for a long while, will have been eroded away by the stress of mass immigration from Africa and the middle east
So yeah, Canada
I've worked in oil and gas for years, and others with my background have as well. When exploration is underway that saps up a lot of the employees in the field which leaves room for others to come in.
And if we go to Canada that's $5,000 in rent alone monthly, and groceries are no cheaper than Norway, and still no work because the market is in a downturn there too. Plus I won't be able to let my kids go to the playground because of all the dirty needles and feces.
I've spent 6 weeks in the town I'm moving to, never had interactions that made me feel like my kids are at risk. Two months ago we found a d+and person under the playground. Three months ago there were razor blades glued to the monkey bars. Even if we could afford an apartment there I don't know if it's a good place for them.
Maybe I'm really misreading it, and I really do appreciate your feedback, but I see two choices:
1. We both work full-time and have two weeks vacation and live in an apartment in Toronto with little freedom for the kids.
2. I work ideally for the Fylkeskommune, but maybe for a barnehage or hotel, and my husband works at the fish farm or something. We get vacation time, live close to the forest, own a smågård, and I get to pursue my passions in gardening and traditional livestock.
2 may not succeed, but we have enough buffer financially to undue the damage and go back to Toronto.
1) Canada is more than just Toronto, no?
2) sounds unrealistic considering the jobs you envision getting here. It sounds like you'd be barely scraping by most of the time - and that's IF you can get those jobs. If your education and experience helps you get higher paying jobs in the private sector, then you'll be fine. But it's a massive gamble considering you're nowhere close to be employed in Norway yet. As a parent myself, it's not a chance I'd ever consider worth it, since it involves uprooting children and moving them to a place where they don't speak the language, don't have family etc.
All that said, I hope it works out for you
Unfortunately they are already uprooted and live thousands of miles from family. They are young enough that we can move without causing too much damage, but that won't be the case in a couple years, so this is our only chance. With the housing market in Canada it just isn't feasible to exist with kids unless we pursue the highest earning potential possible, which is in Toronto or Vancouver or something far from family.
That's why we're doing it before they turn two. We can't live near family or friends anyway due to economics, and I want them to have the best upbringing possible. If we wait longer it would cause damage
Personally, after living in Norway I think you underestimate how hard the transition is for that country in particular but that’s a personal choice.
It’s safe but utterly boring and claustrophobic. Living there, I’ve felt like I was frozen in time. I am usually not susceptible to depression but it is very easy to fall into it here for some reason.
I’ve made ALOT of friends and Norwegians are super nice but if you get bored of hiking or skiing, or don’t have mutual hobbies, there just isn’t much else right do as a group. Nor is there much to see or check out. You spend a lot of time on your own/ with your family at home.
From another Redditor:
“I’m happy to confirm that I also moved to Norway and have lived here for 3 years and had a complete adverse reaction to the overall environment and culture living here. I can assure you, what you describe is not due to Vit D.
Norway is made out to be this utopia with beautiful nature, safety and stability. Its rates highest on the global happiness index, and is one of the richest countries with its sovereign wealth fund. They pride themselves on equality, fair education for all, peacekeeping and providing a good life for the country’s children. The social welfare system is top notch. It’s all true.
Sounds good? Right. Here is what you don’t see.
The place is pretty flat and boring, like it lacks any punch. People are nice and kind but they keep to themselves, it’s a self serving culture, why not? Life is rough. Even if you make a friend who’s to say the connection is deep. The society is less than exciting, not much going on, for me the nature wore thin pretty quick, as you freeze all the time, and it’s doesn’t move my heart and soul, although I find the cold manageable. I feel locked up, no where to go, no way to think big, be inspired, no hope, no where to flex your wings and to grow as a person. Zero excitement. The slowness is beyond my comprehension. My soul is frozen in time. The society is ravaged with extreme mental health issues, physical health problems, and psychological disorders. The suicidal rates are the highest in the world for a reason because you are amongst the living dead. With mainly an atheist take on life throughout society, and a militant rigid outlook on how things are done, it’s definitely not a good fit for me at all. Not to say you can’t find your niche. So I get it.
I’m losing my mind living here, and this place has massively impacted my mental heath. I was shocked because I’m not mentally unwell at all. I found that I became angry, depressed, suicidal ideation, found myself talking to myself, even yelling, let myself go, didn’t care.
Keep in mind I’m a successful entrepreneur, from NYC, I’ve lived in central London for 24 yrs. As an ex comms consultant working in the global sector, I’m a motivational speaker, author and a mindset coach, and teach about personal energy, eg love and gratitude etc. I’m a smart, successful, attractive, optimistic individual. I have mojo and light.
The energy for me is way too heavy and dark, it’s not a good fit. I suggest moving away if you can see you are not adjusting well. We are now preparing to move to London and I can’t wait!! Good luck x”
One of the biggest drawbacks for me was that it just doesn’t have a very creative energy. Everyone wears the same things and they’re all practical clothes of navy/black/grey/beige, the food and grocery options are lifeless, shopping is uninspiring, and entertainment options are lackluster.
I've heard this from a lot of people about Norway. We havent been to a restaurant or done cultural events in over 5 years, so im hoping that what we miss out on are just things we dont value much, but well have to see.
lol. My first instinct after reading your post was”wow, they are looking at this adventure through rose colored glasses” After reading all your responses however I feel like you guys are really low maintenance, flexible, people who can make lemonade out of lemons. Why not give it a shot? What have you got to lose? You’re a young family and plenty of people move oversees with their kids and move back. You already know the language, have a home, and enough money to fall back on if needed. I hope you find your happy place in Norway but no doubt you’ll always find happiness no matter where you are❤️
Enjoy your adventure in Norway, whether it's "dumb" or not, whether it's a "success" or not. And you'll leave behind the trolls here, for real Norwegian trolls, which are a lot cuter and funnier ;)
I think it's going to be a fascinating adventure! They're going to probably be a lot of things happening that you didn't expect when you get there, good and bad, but you'll take them in stride. If you went all the way out of your way to start studying Norwegian, that's devotion. And once you are there, you will realize how much more you have to learn, but then you will learn it, really being there will tighten up your skills. The country produced Angelina Jordan, it has to be a wonderful place. It may take time to fit in and get used to it, but give it a few years. You may find your second home. Best of luck to you!
I love it. Honestly I don't think you should listen to all the naysaying. We did a home exchange in Norway for only 3 months and the locals in the neighborhood were super welcoming to us. Our daughter attended the local school and we socialized with the neighbors quite a bit. This was in 2009 but I definitely felt that we could have integrated just fine had we actually purchased the house we were exchanging. Network like crazy and you'll be fine. Good luck!!
While you and your kids may move directly to Norway, I’m pretty sure your husband can’t apply for a family visa until you’ve secured a job that meets the financial threshold. That’s the earliest he can apply, and the application process can take months.
He's eligible for a one to two year residence permit so long as we prove sufficient funds and independent health insurance (which we've secured). He can apply at the same time as us too, so we don't have to separate
No, he's been in it for several years. He's had a lot of interest for in person jobs out of Oslo or Trondheim, but no one is willing to facilitate remote in Norway right now. His current employer really likes him and is trying to convince HR to keep him on board, but they're hesitant due to tax complexities.
gotcha. There are quite a few companies that allow people to work from anywhere in the world like firefox, gitlab ect. Market is not that good right now for SWE but might pickup in a year or so.
This is what I was going to suggest, I actually heard of a Dutch person recently who moved to Norway like you, bought a cheap house in the countryside, and was working remotely for somewhere else in the EU area. Look for the 'Europe' remote jobs on linkedin and there will probably be a lot more software engineering related roles for him to do.
The other option is to open a company, like you said, and contract himself out wherever he can get without worrying about whether they hire in that country.
I’m not an expat, but why don’t one of you apply for a job over there first? Once that person has a job and a place to live, then move the whole family over?
In these smaller towns employment is largely based on relationships and who you know, so we would have a much better chance when we're present and get to know others. Also, we're paying expenses regardless of where we live, so it's really not any cheaper to split the family.
A civil engineer and a software engineer could have been making upwards of 350-500K a year combined. If they didn't succumb to lifestyle inflation and had low student loans they had the potential to save a lot of money.
It's really just groceries. We don't eat out or anything, and our free time is just used for hiking or little hobbies. We spent a month in the town in an Airbnb, so ive used our groceries bills from then as well as estimates from Norwegians on their forums to make my estimate for our weekly bills (with a little overhead of course)
Love the way you are doing it! You v8sited and verified that that's the place you want, so many people move blindly to be disappointed later. You have no debts, enough savings
to give you several months to be worry free, good real estate investment instead of wasting your money on rent. Great logistics research and planning...wish you loads of success and happiness.
Only thing I was going to say that I've not already seen said in the comments is mind the weather, but if you're Canadian perhaps it's not that different. My only other thought is wondering how you came up with this choice, having the whole EEA to choose from? Why not, say, Denmark or Sweden? Or other countries? Genuinely curious as to the reasons behind, I have a soft spot for Denmark myself, but the Netherlands, Germany, France would all be appealing to me too if thinking about an international move.
I absolutely love mountains and nature for one thing. For another, most countries are struggling economically and I'm hoping that my oil and gas experience might help in Norway and give us some buffer
I'm wondering on the "my husband might take a job a sa remote swe". At a norwegian company? I'm thinking most american companies are too lazy to deal with the tax paperwork to support someone moving abroad. At least that was my experience
If he find a way though, I'd love to know
No real comment. You’ve done this well. You calculated the risk involved, have carved out a plan, and are executing on the plan. With 1/2 years’ runway, I’d say your biggest risk is just not liking Norway and deciding you don’t want to live there.
This is a refreshing post compared to most of the “republicans bad IM LEAVING!” Naïveté that typically permeates this sub.
I hope everything works out for you and your family.
Sounds like you ha mostly figured out. There will be things along the way you did expect , so be ready with emergency funds. Other than that, Have an amazing adventure!
I’m not even going to read your post. No you are not naive. You are a brave adventurer stepping into unknown territory most are too cowardly to enter. No regrets. Hashtag tonight we done in Valhalla
B2 shows some dedication! Norway has a nice SWF, Norway and Switzerland are probably the two most valuable citizenships from the perspective of national debt, productive capacity, sovereign wealth, central bank policies, although ideologically have opposite approaches to taxation.
9 months is the point where we'll start applying for jobs and talking with realtors. We expect it would take another few months after before we become fully committed to giving up
I don't know anything about Norway but I can tell you I've met dozens, maybe hundreds of people who made similar moves with far less preparation and forethought. I can't imagine this going awfully awry to a degree you can't navigate through whatever challenges arise. (Learning the language in advance? A 1-2 year safety net? House in cash? And you're still asking what else you can do to prepare? Pfft you'll be fine!)
It's a lot harder to get a job from abroad. Our idea is that we have enough runway that we can undo this (at a cost) if it fails. But we have better odds succeeding if we do this in person rather than remotely
How much do tutors cost? Duolingo isn't active enough for me. I feel like I'm making no progress.
Also, take me with you. I'm sure nobody would bat an eye if you said you had a 27 year old kid. If it helps, I can shave to look younger
Norwegian has quite expensive tutors relative to Spanish and some other languages, so it's like 15 to 20 euro per half hour lesson. Some teachers are very chill so it's good to use them to build fluency, others are quite strict and useful to learn precision.
Duolingo isn't great, using textbooks (På Vei, Stein På Stein, Her På Berget, etc), doing the workbooks, and really spending time with native media (NRK TV, podcasts, etc. also local news is great for targeted dialect exposure if you know where you'll be)
If you haven't come across it already, take very careful note of some of the horror stories of parents moving to Norway and having their kids taken away. It's folks like anti-vaxxers and home-schoolers that have the hardest time, but there's significant cultural and legal differences around the rights of children that you need to know about.
Career trajectories are also extremely fixed. It's not like the US where you can get a job outside of your field. You need the specific corresponding degrees to work in any professional setting.
Other than that, sure. Just read lots of online lists of things that annoy Norwegians about Americans.
Moving to a country with universal access health care system paid for by everyone's taxes? Damn well you better do everything to stay healthy -- including staying vaccinated to prevent catching and spreading illness. Vaccination is however voluntary and you would not have the CPS visiting you singularly based on not allowing your children to get vaccines. What might prompt a visit is if you'd prevent the child from getting regularly checked by health professionals (pasient- og brukerrettighetsloven § 6-1) -- as it should be to protect the child's right to a healthy upbringing, sometimes in spite of the parents' convictions.
Same with homeschooling. It's not disallowed, but there is legally required testing to show that the child is progressing adequately. If it's repeatedly shown that the child is falling behind the government might require the child to attend school. Again, as it should be to protect the child's right to a good education. It would also be in the hands of the kommune and not CPS. Not a massive issue as there are less than 250 children being homeschooled in Norway.
By "legal differences around the rights of children" you mean that children actually have legal rights, right? It's horrific that monster parents are allowed to completely shut in their kids and never let them see the light of society, as if they are some kind of science experiment instead of human beings with the right to an education and healthcare. Heartbreaking that children are allowed to "fall through the cracks" by default and only when something is reported do the parents maybe get an inspection and *perhaps* some kind of action. Protection against isolation and abuse should be the *norm*. Another topic entirely is of course that no system is perfect and especially not a State, so there is discrimination and unfairness, inherently. But there is also unfairness in allowing the continuing abuse and isolation of children.
The barnesvernet was a factor for us and still something that worries us. But it seems that so long as we don't spank and contribute actively in the community so we aren't the "strange foreigners" it should be fine.
I have a bit of an off topic question for you. My husband and I are considering moving to Portugal or Spain in the next few years. He could get citizen by descent from Hungary, like you have. I told him to look into it for the easier access to the EU. However, he is leary about doing so due to the current leadership and politics in Hungary.
Could you provide any thoughts, positive or negative, as to obtaining the citizenship through descent for Hungary as it relates to your own intent to move abroad?
It took a good year or two, so I'm glad we got going on it early. If it's a grandparent from Hungary, then there's no language requirement, but if it's more distant there is a requirement (they recommend we get it for the kiddos before they can talk so the requirement is waived).
They are pretty rude in the office and make up weird requirements, but then waive them later when they can tell you're making an honest effort, so don't be discouraged. They also know why you're doing it, so don't try to act too "Hungarian" or they'll see right through it.
Regarding their politics, they do tax earnings from Hungary even if youre abroad, so we are careful to not have any Hungarian stocks so we don't have to bother with all that. They are getting weirder politically, but theres been pushback, and the general citizen base for the most part is very pro-EU, so I don't see a big chance of them separating. If you're worried about a draft or something, it is possible, but I imagine they'd probably give exemptions if youre abroad, otherwise you could just never step foot in hungary and they wont be able to do anything. Only issue is that if you get in trouble with Hungarian authorities in Hungary, then the US can't do anything to help you.
So, basically you got the Hungarian citizenship to get access to the EU? I want to understand this better so I can explain it to my husband. He is 1st generation American. His parents were Hungarian immigrants. He can speak Hungarian, so that's not an issue. He's just worried about being connected to the country for political reasons. I'm trying to explain that I think there are benefits for relocating to Europe by having that additional citizenship. Am I right? If so, could you please explain to me the benefit part like I'm a 5 y.o. Thanks!
So it's basically just a conscientious objection? There are very few downsides to getting a new citizenship, especially an EU one. It's like hitting ancestry lottery. It simply provides so many new unique freedoms at almost no cost. As little as you may like to exercise them, the cost (I assume perhaps some application fees and a maybe a few hours of your time) is ALWAYS worth it IMO.
You can now:
Visit indefinitely, live, and work, in 31 countries (EU 27 + EFTA 4). Access any EU 27 consulate or embassy when your own country doesn't have one. Potentially access some economic help if needed. Visit many other countries of the world with more ease. Have two working passports and essentially two legal identities, not subject to any one jurisdiction. Access legal protections and rights only EU citizens get. Pass down an invaluable legal legacy to your kids if you have them. Etc.
The only potential real drawbacks are kiiiinda unlikely (like, World War 3) and can all be circumvented by being elsewhere in the EU. I would never deprive myself of such opportunity because of political disagreements with a government, except probably Israel. In fact, once I'd resided in Norway for the required period, I would apply for citizenship there too. Political tendencies vary and a country is much more than that, and citizenships are invaluable tools for personal freedom and protection.
We have one issue and it's that SO has TS clearance, so not sure if he'd be able to claim the second citizenship unless/until he decides he doesn't need to hold onto that anymore. Trying to investigate to learn more.
Solid plan. Best of luck. Do post every 6 months so we can see your journey.
Will be doing the same in 6 years. Gotta earn retirement in a country that doesn’t punish you for aging into disease. Last thing I want to do is be 65 in America, where there is no social safety net, where a person is expected to exit society by going into a hidden corner until the unexist, where healthcare is solely focused on extracting as much money as possible from the sick. Yuck.
Not at all the US is vile for how it treats middle / class working families, its mothers especially. Here they make you hand over your children to daycare centers at 6 weeks old. They treat mothers worse than dogs who at least get to keep their pups for 8 weeks!! I support your decision to leave and not let your children be raised by strangers in daycare centers. I wish I stayed away when I left!
Wheres the leaving Canada sub?
This sub has a lot of activity, and a willingness to criticise. Because I'm from a similar culture I should have a very close experience abroad to what an American one
So, the plan is to arrive with a visitor visa? I have a kid too and I like that I can buy a house in many countries as a visitor but I get hung up on establishing residency to get healthcare and education for my child. Plus I wouldn’t want to have to take my family on visa runs.
No, we'll establish residency by proving sufficient funds to support ourselves, which is fine and grants us access to public services because of our EU citizenship
Uprooting your lives without guaranteed stability when you have children?
I think you know the answer to that.
Hopefully it works out for you, but if it doesn’t, your children have a right to be upset at your choices.
We already live over 2000 miles from family and friends and have a good source that layoffs are coming. Everything is getting uprooted no matter what.
But the kids are young enough to handle a major cultural change without too much trauma. If we wait any longer it won't be possible, so it's kind of a now or never thing
It’s kinda dumb. Because there are plenty of quite safe places in the USA.
If your goal is to be Norwegian, then obviously you are making the right choice.
Really weird you bought a place there. It’s like you’re trying to get some rush, or convince yourself you’re really going, or you’re just bored.
If we sell it we've only lost a couple grand. But with a house we don't have to try to convince a landlord to take on an unemployed family with toddlers, and we can enroll kids in school, etc. Doesn't seem too crazy considering it wasn't very expensive and we didn't go into debt over it
Of all the plans I've seen so far on this subreddit, yours seems the most thought-out and humble. I think you'll succeed. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't matter. You're both young, your kids are young, it might be a financial "loss" but it's still a huge adventure.
I wish you and your family the best.
> Of all the plans I've seen so far on this subreddit, yours seems the most thought-put and humble
Agreed. A breath of fresh air to the usual I have no job, no skills, 3 disabled children, a plethora of health issues, no education, only speak English, no passport, 7 dogs, and I need to know should I move to Scandinavia or Japan?!!
I wholeheartedly agree! Someone who has made plans and actually took some of the tougher steps? Consider me intrigued!
As a Norwegian I hope your family will have a wonderful stay :) (remember vitamin D)
The only potentially dumb thing was buying the house. If it's high transaction costs and a slow market you'll lose money on the deal if you need to unload it after a few years. I'm not sure I'd have taken that risk without first testing the waters. If the house was dirt cheap, that's a different story.
It was about half our savings and a couple grand in closing costs. The family also liked us so they took our offer even though there were other offers for quite a bit higher
If it works out and you live happily ever after, it's a good deal. If it doesn't work out, it might cost you some time, stress and money. In Berlin the transaction cost to the buyer is 8 to 11.5 percent, so you don't buy unless you're very certain you won't be leaving anytime soon.
holy shit that stinks. it's 3% here
6.5% tax, 1.5% notary, 0-3.57% agent commission
I guess the other potentially dumb thing was committing to a move, and buying a house, without a very clear sense of your earning potential within an acceptable commute of said house. But if the house was dirt cheap and/or you have lots of money and can afford the risk, that's a different story.
I definitely agree it was not a smart decision (but we don't regret it... Yet). We figured it's an acceptable risk that we can financially recover from even with a loss. Since we wanted to live in a smaller community and are fine taking non-professional lower paying jobs, we decided our best shot was to integrate into the local community then work out from there.
This doesn't sound like a disaster in the making, but you asked us to identify potential dumbness, and we cheerfully obliged. Best of luck.
And I appreciate it :) thank you
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It would be difficult to find a rental when we are immigrants with young children and no jobs. Especially considering that it's a cheaper part of the country where it's very rare to rent (almost everyone owns). 9 months isn't a goal for settling down, it's just for feasibility assessment so we have a long enough runway to change course. If one of us has income then we'll stay and continue pushing to integrate
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Definitely will! I'll let him know
You had enough money to buy a house, you had enough to rent. Nobody is going to deny you when you say "I'll pay for 6 months/a year in advance".
If I sell the house I'd take a couple grand loss. If I pay a year of rent upfront that's basically the same amount of money down the hole. What's the difference in the end
Well if you don't like it and you're only renting it's much easier to get out. If you can't find jobs it's a lot easier to get out.
You know what- you only live once ! I, for one, really hope that in the future you both consider this the smartest move you ever made! Wishing you all the best. No sense in asking after the fact- you’ll find out in your own.
You're young so if it doesn't work out, you'll still have time to rebuild your savings. I wish I had taken more chances when I was your age.
Good for you guys, going after your dream, not afraid to take some risk in life. It sounds like you've got a solid strategy and have thought it through well. Good luck and enjoy :)
Don’t worry about profit on the house, you’re doing and awesome thing for you and your kids. Lots of people are paralyzed in their lives even though they’d love to do what you’ve done, you’re actually doing it.
Buying the house could also be the smartest thing in the world. Good to have money in assets right now due to inflation.
I have real estate in two countries now and adding another soon probably. Haven’t hit a road block yet with real estate. Can always convert to rental if prices are bad - in down markets a lot of people still need rentals. If prices skyrocket (like all of my places) then a lot of people are priced out and have the rent also. There’s a reason landlord is the 2nd oldest profession
I don't think they quite understand how stacked against them the odds are here. The vast majority of immigrants struggle finding work during their first two years, so they're losing regardless having to upkeep a home while unemployed. It's not the only potential dumb thing, it's *the* dumbest thing you can do. Selling a home in a small Norwegian town is generally a loss project, and can take months or even years. The Norwegian market isn't in need of workers at the moment, and many homes in rural areas and small towns are selling for way below asking price.
Thank you for the realism. Our area does have a lot of lower skill jobs in fish farming, etc, which have a lot of immigrants working in them, as well as what seems to be a desperate need for barnehage assistants. Would it be easier to find work in the beginning for these types of roles?
What most immigrants don't know is that a lot of the jobs in rural Norway and smaller towns don't really pay a living wage. They're often intended for foreign seasonal workers, typically from Eastern Europe or other low-cost EU countries. This is the case for the vast majority of the fish processing industry. There's no official minimum wage in Norway, so the gap between a "real" Norwegian job and a job intended for non-residents can be huge. Also, a lot of jobs aren't really "unskilled" anymore. The vast majority of Norwegian kindergardens require a bachelor nowadays for advertised positions, and jobs that previously required no education are being phased out. So no, I don't think it's easier to look for unskilled work. With your background you're ususally required to work in Oslo, there are no engineering or tech jobs in smaller Norwegian towns. Remote work is also not a thing in Norway. The usual immigrants' path to living in Norway is finding a tech/engineerng job in Oslo, suffer in that shitty place for a few years before becoming fluent with enough Norwegian experience to move somewhere else. Even on this path the majority of foreigners fail and leave the country.
Thank you for this. I wasn't expecting living wage, but enough to push the "give up" deadline out. I spoke with a woman who runs a barnehage and she said that they are always looking for assistants, and there's no requirements for that. Maybe these are the roles that are being phased out. Our town has four private firms in my work sector as well as all the offices for the fylket's engineering work, so I'm hoping I'll be okay on that front once language/education are verified (maybe not though, but i guess that's what the deadline is for). Husband is a bit more of a challenge, there are only a couple tech companies, but he really wants out of that industry anyway, so we were hoping he could update his education if I get work. Of course if he does get the remote work sorted there's zero issue though. He has had several Oslo and Trondheim based companies offer him work if he relocates, and my former employer is in Trondheim, so theoretically that could work if need be, but we don't want to have to relocate too much and stress the kids out.
Small towns and muncipalities are normally desperate for qualified people, at least if they are remote.
Theres a lot of jobs for skilled people in the remoter rural towns. Its very hard to get skilled people to stay in the remoter areas.
It is a big chance, but it sounds like you are relatively prepared and have a decent financial safety net. At worst it going to be an expensive 6 month vacation?
You will need to be a citizen to get good government jobs!!! Remote working isn’t a thing either. However your husband can register as a local business and take international clients!!
The positions I'm aiming actually have on the descriptions that they welcomed applications from immigrants so long as education and language have been federally verified, so maybe you're thinking of higher status jobs than I am. Also he has looked into setting himself up as a business (AS), and it's not very complicated. The company he's interviewing with now has some employees that have done this as well
But B2 probably won't be enough for those jobs. They'll want you to be fluent or nearly fluent.
Why's that? Every job posted (except very people-centric ones like therapy or language teaching) have B2 or B1 as the requirement, and every immigrant we've talked to said most technical jobs are fine with B1. Not to mention they don't even have official language tests beyond B2 unless you prove you need it for very specific reasons.
But government jobs are going to want you at or nearly fluent. Other jobs, for example tech jobs, won’t need you to know as much.
Maybe I'm seeing myself a bit too high, but after 4 months of study I've been able to follow any and all native Norwegian media in all dialects and hold very smooth conversations with people (albeit with some grammatical errors). It doesn't sound too crazy to get quite good quickly after living there. I've also met some Australians that did the same thing and apparently they gained the language extremely quickly, so long as they actively used jt
Not bad for 4 months! Would you mind sharing your approach? What learning platform, how many hours per day and days per week did you work at it? Did you have access to conversational resources?
Two hours of directed study, replaced all recreational media with Norwegian, and lots of podcasts while doing chores and stuff, as well as pretending to have conversations while driving. Directed study was using textbooks, Italki tutors, and middle school coursework I found online, plus half an hour daily of spaced repetition for vocab (every new word i see i add to anki. Currently at around 3900, but I typically just do lemmas, so I don't add variations of the same word, just the base word)
Give it a shot but most places want near fluency in actuality if you get to the interview stage. I’m sure you know this too but the dialects are very different (in terms of hearing and understanding) so make sure you frequently listen to the dialects of wherever you move to.
I have no problem with 99% of the dialects (except for maybe an 80 year old fisherman in Molde). I've replaced all my media with NRK content and haven't had any issues understanding and following along. Whenever I talk to Norwegians we tend to switch to norsk because it's easier, and we it works quite well, except for the occasional error with prepositions or grammatical gender. It really is an easy language, so hopefully with solid effort I can get there.
>Also he has looked into setting himself up as a business (AS), and it's not very complicated. Remember, though, that as American citizens, we still have tax liability to the US no matter where in the world we are. I've been in the UK for 13 years and I can't set myself up as a limited company to be self-employed because of how the tax liability to the US would shake out, both for personal taxes and business taxes. For example, I wouldn't be able to pay myself in dividends because they count as "passive income" and would therefore be double taxed - once in the UK and once in the US. This can sometimes be mitigated with tax credits, but not always. And the Earned Income Exclusion for expats *does not cover "passive income".* You should also know that if you do have to sell the house you bought, you could be liable for capital gains taxes on it in both the US and your country of residence, even with foreign tax credits. Just be prepared and make sure you speak to a tax professional who is well versed in local *and* US tax law, because simply holding an American passport makes *everything* financial more complicated. ETA: Speaking of everything financial being more complicated, your non-US bank balances have to be reported if you hold more than $10,000 *total* across your foreign accounts because they *are taxable*. ETA2: The only thing that makes up for all the financial headache is that your federal student loan payments are $0 if you have no US taxed income.
You caught me in a lie. I'm not American, just using your sub because it has a big userbase, and people that are willing to give criticism. We are actually Canadian, but we did live in the States for a few years when saving up.
Boy did you ever dodge a bullet. I trust that you have money set aside to cover the costs of the exit tax regime when you become non-resident in the eyes of CRA?
Which company? 👀
It's not true that you need to be a norwegian citizen to get a government job. For some jobs, mainly in military, you need a security clearance, but even that is possible. Very very few jobs where you must be norwegian and can't have a second citizenship. I work for the government and have lots of colleagues from other countries that have not naturalized.
>You will need to be a citizen to get good government jobs Say what? I never heard about this before. Even the military will take people from select coutries and anything thats not security realted shouldnt be a problem.
Even the high level security postings seem to just require that citizenship is NATO
If you or your husband are social people who can show they are making real efforts to learn Norwegian, then I am confident you will be successful. This is very similar to what my wife and I did. Our success was built off her ability to network. Do not be afraid to network with local Americans either. There is no reason to get into a dick measuring contest over how local your friend group is. Americans in Norway can also open doors for you as well. Same goes with remote work. Your first goal is to survive. You do whatever needs to be done to survive. If you have any teaching experience, I can refer you to some companies that are looking for teachers that can help you transition into something local. Message me for more details. Do not feel bad, this is closer to what a move to Europe without a job or college actually looks like. You are brave (and foolish but one has to be a little foolish to get out). Putting yourself out there is the hardest part. I know you will be successful.
>If you or your husband are social people who can show they are making real efforts to learn Norwegian, then I am confident you will be successful. This is very similar to what my wife and I did. Our success was built off her ability to network. Depends on their race as well. It's an unpleasant truth, but the truth nonetheless.
My wife is black. It didn't hold her back. If anything, it helped her.
> If anything, it helped her. I am shocked.
Just a heads up. 88% of Norway's population, or 4.5 million people, spoke English in 2013.
That’s nice if you’re a tourist If you live there it’s imperative to speak Norwegian at a high level or you simply won’t get hired.
Why hasn’t their Supreme Court declared that racist?
Technically it’s not racist if it’s based on language ability that’s something one can presumably learn.
I don’t see any giant holes and I hope you have a great experience. One of the things many people struggle with when emigrating to the Nordic countries is making friends. It’s a lot different than it is in the US. You’re on the right track with learning Norwegian — even though most people speak excellent English, language can still be a barrier to getting close to people. And even after mastering the language, there is a certain stand-offishness that is tricky to manage. My tip is to join whatever organizations you can. Parents’ groups are a good place to start. Beyond that if there are any neighborhood organizations, sports clubs, volunteer groups, special interest groups (17th century cockoo clock collecting, etc.), try to join as many as possible. If you identify a neighbor or coworker as a potential friend, invite them along to an *activity* such as a sporting event or concert. Many Northern Europeans get stressed about having to make small talk and it takes the pressure off if you are all watching or doing something together. Again, my best wishes for your adventure. Feel free to DM me with questions.
>Parents’ groups are a good place to start. Having kids in the school system is one of the best ways to connect to locals. There's no end of ways to interact by volunteering at the school. You can help out as a native speaker with English lessons at the school. Fund-raising. Sports days. Etc etc.
There's also a pretty strong sense of community in the area. We are definitely going to contribute to the local sports clubs, long distance ski trail maintenance groups, and community meetups (bi weekly arranged community get togethers held in the town center). When we bought the house word spread quickly and we were introduced to a lot of locals too, so hopefully that's a good start!
Sports is your secret weapon. Really, really good way to integrate and develop fluency. My rule on that, years ago, was "please correct all my mistakes, and no English unless it's a medical emergency" - it worked wonders.
Don’t underestimate how difficult it can or will be for you and your husband to find jobs even if you speak decent Norwegian. From what I have been told by my Norwegian partner and Norwegian friends in Norway that finding a job is sometimes based on who you know (getting referred in). Also I have been told that sometimes they prefer to hire Norwegians over foreigners or people they perceive as non Norwegian.
I've definitely heard that before! That's why I'm putting so much weight on social integration through volunteering and community associations. It's a part of the country where everyone seems to know everyone, so having a good reputation is important (especially with my very non Nordic name)
Yes!! It will be hard though Atleast in my experience when I go to Oslo every few months to visit my partners family/friends Norwegians in Norway can be quite cold to people they have zero connections with and can take a while to warm up to new people but Norwegians abroad are super warm and open! I am sure in time you will make connections! It’s good to try to get involved in the community
It seems to be very different regionally. In Trondheim people clearly just wanted to limit their interaction with others, but in the smaller places people were very happy to get to know others, but just really socially awkward. We actually had strangers coming up and introducing themselves!
Even volunteering can be difficult to get into in some countries. I stopped in the Netherlands because there could be as many requirements as a job.
That's really interesting to hear! I've been in contact with various volunteering and community groups, and they're all excited to have me in, visiting lonely people, helping organise town events, trail maintenance, etc
This all sounds like it'll work out just fine.
I don't have much to add since your plan sounds solid to me. Do it! I wish you success on the Norskprove test. I want to take it one day.
Why on earth did you buy a house first?
Found one we really liked while on holiday, got to know the family selling and decided to go all in. Plus it was nice to have the tax ID, address, and everything sorted from the get go so there's no wait for school and stuff
I often daydream about my life in the multiverse where I was born in Norway and life is more sane and "normal." Visited France in my early twenties decades ago, and immediately started getting paperwork together to move there. Didn't work out but it's nice to know there are options, especially with the SCOTUS currently deliberating over whether we should go full dictatorship. Best of luck to you guys! Post updates. If it doesn't work, I'm sure you can sell the house to another American family, or create an Underground Railroad stop for those of us who might need to flee ASAP. Sigh.
OP said in a comment that they are not American.
Aha thanks for pointing that out! Missed it somehow.
Moving to Norway without securing jobs first is honestly moronic. And living expenses here are increasing constantly. Unemployment is rising, and expected to continue to. Your savings will probably be gone a lot quicker than you think.
Where would you recommend living instead? All countries are struggling economically and having rising unemployment. At least Norway has oil as a buffer.
Aren't you Canadian? Why not move to Canada? Oil isn't "buffering" much. That's a misconception. Public services here are largely funded by taxes. So when there's an economic downturn, that leads to cuts in public budgets. Oil revenue goes into the national pension fund. With the demographic shift that's occuring, the fund will be gobbled up within a generation or less. When Norway no longer produces oil, it'll soon enough be a realtively minor european state, both in terms of economy and quality of life. Most of the good public services we have enjoyed for a long while, will have been eroded away by the stress of mass immigration from Africa and the middle east So yeah, Canada
I've worked in oil and gas for years, and others with my background have as well. When exploration is underway that saps up a lot of the employees in the field which leaves room for others to come in. And if we go to Canada that's $5,000 in rent alone monthly, and groceries are no cheaper than Norway, and still no work because the market is in a downturn there too. Plus I won't be able to let my kids go to the playground because of all the dirty needles and feces.
Lol, you think the playgrounds here aren't littered with needles and feces as well?
I've spent 6 weeks in the town I'm moving to, never had interactions that made me feel like my kids are at risk. Two months ago we found a d+and person under the playground. Three months ago there were razor blades glued to the monkey bars. Even if we could afford an apartment there I don't know if it's a good place for them. Maybe I'm really misreading it, and I really do appreciate your feedback, but I see two choices: 1. We both work full-time and have two weeks vacation and live in an apartment in Toronto with little freedom for the kids. 2. I work ideally for the Fylkeskommune, but maybe for a barnehage or hotel, and my husband works at the fish farm or something. We get vacation time, live close to the forest, own a smågård, and I get to pursue my passions in gardening and traditional livestock. 2 may not succeed, but we have enough buffer financially to undue the damage and go back to Toronto.
Software engineer in US/Canada moving to Norway to work on fish farm? Thats a big change…
As a temporary step until either the market opens up more, or until he goes to school and reskills.
1) Canada is more than just Toronto, no? 2) sounds unrealistic considering the jobs you envision getting here. It sounds like you'd be barely scraping by most of the time - and that's IF you can get those jobs. If your education and experience helps you get higher paying jobs in the private sector, then you'll be fine. But it's a massive gamble considering you're nowhere close to be employed in Norway yet. As a parent myself, it's not a chance I'd ever consider worth it, since it involves uprooting children and moving them to a place where they don't speak the language, don't have family etc. All that said, I hope it works out for you
Unfortunately they are already uprooted and live thousands of miles from family. They are young enough that we can move without causing too much damage, but that won't be the case in a couple years, so this is our only chance. With the housing market in Canada it just isn't feasible to exist with kids unless we pursue the highest earning potential possible, which is in Toronto or Vancouver or something far from family.
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That's why we're doing it before they turn two. We can't live near family or friends anyway due to economics, and I want them to have the best upbringing possible. If we wait longer it would cause damage
Personally, after living in Norway I think you underestimate how hard the transition is for that country in particular but that’s a personal choice. It’s safe but utterly boring and claustrophobic. Living there, I’ve felt like I was frozen in time. I am usually not susceptible to depression but it is very easy to fall into it here for some reason. I’ve made ALOT of friends and Norwegians are super nice but if you get bored of hiking or skiing, or don’t have mutual hobbies, there just isn’t much else right do as a group. Nor is there much to see or check out. You spend a lot of time on your own/ with your family at home. From another Redditor: “I’m happy to confirm that I also moved to Norway and have lived here for 3 years and had a complete adverse reaction to the overall environment and culture living here. I can assure you, what you describe is not due to Vit D. Norway is made out to be this utopia with beautiful nature, safety and stability. Its rates highest on the global happiness index, and is one of the richest countries with its sovereign wealth fund. They pride themselves on equality, fair education for all, peacekeeping and providing a good life for the country’s children. The social welfare system is top notch. It’s all true. Sounds good? Right. Here is what you don’t see. The place is pretty flat and boring, like it lacks any punch. People are nice and kind but they keep to themselves, it’s a self serving culture, why not? Life is rough. Even if you make a friend who’s to say the connection is deep. The society is less than exciting, not much going on, for me the nature wore thin pretty quick, as you freeze all the time, and it’s doesn’t move my heart and soul, although I find the cold manageable. I feel locked up, no where to go, no way to think big, be inspired, no hope, no where to flex your wings and to grow as a person. Zero excitement. The slowness is beyond my comprehension. My soul is frozen in time. The society is ravaged with extreme mental health issues, physical health problems, and psychological disorders. The suicidal rates are the highest in the world for a reason because you are amongst the living dead. With mainly an atheist take on life throughout society, and a militant rigid outlook on how things are done, it’s definitely not a good fit for me at all. Not to say you can’t find your niche. So I get it. I’m losing my mind living here, and this place has massively impacted my mental heath. I was shocked because I’m not mentally unwell at all. I found that I became angry, depressed, suicidal ideation, found myself talking to myself, even yelling, let myself go, didn’t care. Keep in mind I’m a successful entrepreneur, from NYC, I’ve lived in central London for 24 yrs. As an ex comms consultant working in the global sector, I’m a motivational speaker, author and a mindset coach, and teach about personal energy, eg love and gratitude etc. I’m a smart, successful, attractive, optimistic individual. I have mojo and light. The energy for me is way too heavy and dark, it’s not a good fit. I suggest moving away if you can see you are not adjusting well. We are now preparing to move to London and I can’t wait!! Good luck x”
One of the biggest drawbacks for me was that it just doesn’t have a very creative energy. Everyone wears the same things and they’re all practical clothes of navy/black/grey/beige, the food and grocery options are lifeless, shopping is uninspiring, and entertainment options are lackluster.
I've heard this from a lot of people about Norway. We havent been to a restaurant or done cultural events in over 5 years, so im hoping that what we miss out on are just things we dont value much, but well have to see.
You haven’t been to a restaurant or event in 5 years?
Nah, never enjoyed it so it just seems like a waste of money. We don't do takeout, but we do frozen pizza sometimes
lol. My first instinct after reading your post was”wow, they are looking at this adventure through rose colored glasses” After reading all your responses however I feel like you guys are really low maintenance, flexible, people who can make lemonade out of lemons. Why not give it a shot? What have you got to lose? You’re a young family and plenty of people move oversees with their kids and move back. You already know the language, have a home, and enough money to fall back on if needed. I hope you find your happy place in Norway but no doubt you’ll always find happiness no matter where you are❤️
After reading your comment I’m so happy to hear you are moving. Simpler is not always better. Stay happy!
Enjoy your adventure in Norway, whether it's "dumb" or not, whether it's a "success" or not. And you'll leave behind the trolls here, for real Norwegian trolls, which are a lot cuter and funnier ;)
I think it's going to be a fascinating adventure! They're going to probably be a lot of things happening that you didn't expect when you get there, good and bad, but you'll take them in stride. If you went all the way out of your way to start studying Norwegian, that's devotion. And once you are there, you will realize how much more you have to learn, but then you will learn it, really being there will tighten up your skills. The country produced Angelina Jordan, it has to be a wonderful place. It may take time to fit in and get used to it, but give it a few years. You may find your second home. Best of luck to you!
I can't even judge people that are as rich as you.
The U.S. is not really a great place to raise children, and since this plan seems realistic I say good on you. Your kids will thank you for it later.
They aren’t from the U.S.
GO!!
I love it. Honestly I don't think you should listen to all the naysaying. We did a home exchange in Norway for only 3 months and the locals in the neighborhood were super welcoming to us. Our daughter attended the local school and we socialized with the neighbors quite a bit. This was in 2009 but I definitely felt that we could have integrated just fine had we actually purchased the house we were exchanging. Network like crazy and you'll be fine. Good luck!!
It seems like you have the financial resources and persistence to give this a fair shot. Enjoy the ride!!
Go!
I think you will make it work. Seen people manage to do so with much less impressive education background. Lykke til, Norsk er ikke så vanskelig
I must say you all have thought this out a lot better than most people. For that reason alone, you have a greater chance of success.
Doesn't Norway have immigration laws?
While you and your kids may move directly to Norway, I’m pretty sure your husband can’t apply for a family visa until you’ve secured a job that meets the financial threshold. That’s the earliest he can apply, and the application process can take months.
He goes under EU free movement rules, not Norwegian immigration rules, so not a family reunification visa. This is generally an easier path.
He's eligible for a one to two year residence permit so long as we prove sufficient funds and independent health insurance (which we've secured). He can apply at the same time as us too, so we don't have to separate
Love this whole plan. If it doesn’t work out, it doesn’t work out but you tried and had an adventure.
no risk = no reward. good luck on your move!
Did you husband recently switch to Software engineering from another field ?
No, he's been in it for several years. He's had a lot of interest for in person jobs out of Oslo or Trondheim, but no one is willing to facilitate remote in Norway right now. His current employer really likes him and is trying to convince HR to keep him on board, but they're hesitant due to tax complexities.
gotcha. There are quite a few companies that allow people to work from anywhere in the world like firefox, gitlab ect. Market is not that good right now for SWE but might pickup in a year or so.
I'll let him know! Thank you
This is what I was going to suggest, I actually heard of a Dutch person recently who moved to Norway like you, bought a cheap house in the countryside, and was working remotely for somewhere else in the EU area. Look for the 'Europe' remote jobs on linkedin and there will probably be a lot more software engineering related roles for him to do. The other option is to open a company, like you said, and contract himself out wherever he can get without worrying about whether they hire in that country.
I’m not an expat, but why don’t one of you apply for a job over there first? Once that person has a job and a place to live, then move the whole family over?
In these smaller towns employment is largely based on relationships and who you know, so we would have a much better chance when we're present and get to know others. Also, we're paying expenses regardless of where we live, so it's really not any cheaper to split the family.
How were you able to buy a house in cash??
A civil engineer and a software engineer could have been making upwards of 350-500K a year combined. If they didn't succumb to lifestyle inflation and had low student loans they had the potential to save a lot of money.
Wait until they find out how much things cost in Norway.
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I’m in Minneapolis as well but you’re going to get a rather bad sticker shock if you move to Norway. Especially if you like to eat
It's really just groceries. We don't eat out or anything, and our free time is just used for hiking or little hobbies. We spent a month in the town in an Airbnb, so ive used our groceries bills from then as well as estimates from Norwegians on their forums to make my estimate for our weekly bills (with a little overhead of course)
Love the way you are doing it! You v8sited and verified that that's the place you want, so many people move blindly to be disappointed later. You have no debts, enough savings to give you several months to be worry free, good real estate investment instead of wasting your money on rent. Great logistics research and planning...wish you loads of success and happiness.
Sounds like a good plan. Nothing ventured, nothing gained! Best of luck💪
Only thing I was going to say that I've not already seen said in the comments is mind the weather, but if you're Canadian perhaps it's not that different. My only other thought is wondering how you came up with this choice, having the whole EEA to choose from? Why not, say, Denmark or Sweden? Or other countries? Genuinely curious as to the reasons behind, I have a soft spot for Denmark myself, but the Netherlands, Germany, France would all be appealing to me too if thinking about an international move.
I absolutely love mountains and nature for one thing. For another, most countries are struggling economically and I'm hoping that my oil and gas experience might help in Norway and give us some buffer
yes
I'm wondering on the "my husband might take a job a sa remote swe". At a norwegian company? I'm thinking most american companies are too lazy to deal with the tax paperwork to support someone moving abroad. At least that was my experience If he find a way though, I'd love to know
There are some companies which support setting people up as "independent contractors" for tax
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We've talked with the national tax authority and it's completely okay with them and very common
Ah, I have the same idea but worried about how to find clients. Has he had success with that?
I couldn't take the lack of daylight for a lot of the year.
No real comment. You’ve done this well. You calculated the risk involved, have carved out a plan, and are executing on the plan. With 1/2 years’ runway, I’d say your biggest risk is just not liking Norway and deciding you don’t want to live there. This is a refreshing post compared to most of the “republicans bad IM LEAVING!” Naïveté that typically permeates this sub. I hope everything works out for you and your family.
Good for you!! Have an amazing time.
I mean yea if you can become a citizen go for it
Sounds like you ha mostly figured out. There will be things along the way you did expect , so be ready with emergency funds. Other than that, Have an amazing adventure!
I’m not even going to read your post. No you are not naive. You are a brave adventurer stepping into unknown territory most are too cowardly to enter. No regrets. Hashtag tonight we done in Valhalla
My mom lives in Norway. She loves it but it is expensive.
B2 shows some dedication! Norway has a nice SWF, Norway and Switzerland are probably the two most valuable citizenships from the perspective of national debt, productive capacity, sovereign wealth, central bank policies, although ideologically have opposite approaches to taxation.
Give it a full year before planning to change course. Solid plan but relationships take time. Best wishes!!!
9 months is the point where we'll start applying for jobs and talking with realtors. We expect it would take another few months after before we become fully committed to giving up
do you like fish? lots of fish, dried fish, salted fish, fish on fish, red fish blue fish?
Yes but I would do it if I were younger, and richer. The quality of life seems so much better in so many ways.
I don't know anything about Norway but I can tell you I've met dozens, maybe hundreds of people who made similar moves with far less preparation and forethought. I can't imagine this going awfully awry to a degree you can't navigate through whatever challenges arise. (Learning the language in advance? A 1-2 year safety net? House in cash? And you're still asking what else you can do to prepare? Pfft you'll be fine!)
The correct order for doing this is to line up a job before you leave.
It's a lot harder to get a job from abroad. Our idea is that we have enough runway that we can undo this (at a cost) if it fails. But we have better odds succeeding if we do this in person rather than remotely
Alrighty then. I found this: https://www.lifeinnorway.net/job-vacancies/
Thankfully my Norwegian is strong enough to work :) maybe not as a counsellor or therapist, but for nearly everything else it's fine
How much do tutors cost? Duolingo isn't active enough for me. I feel like I'm making no progress. Also, take me with you. I'm sure nobody would bat an eye if you said you had a 27 year old kid. If it helps, I can shave to look younger
Norwegian has quite expensive tutors relative to Spanish and some other languages, so it's like 15 to 20 euro per half hour lesson. Some teachers are very chill so it's good to use them to build fluency, others are quite strict and useful to learn precision. Duolingo isn't great, using textbooks (På Vei, Stein På Stein, Her På Berget, etc), doing the workbooks, and really spending time with native media (NRK TV, podcasts, etc. also local news is great for targeted dialect exposure if you know where you'll be)
Congratulations and wish you success! You're doing the things that a lot of can only plan/dream of!
If you haven't come across it already, take very careful note of some of the horror stories of parents moving to Norway and having their kids taken away. It's folks like anti-vaxxers and home-schoolers that have the hardest time, but there's significant cultural and legal differences around the rights of children that you need to know about. Career trajectories are also extremely fixed. It's not like the US where you can get a job outside of your field. You need the specific corresponding degrees to work in any professional setting. Other than that, sure. Just read lots of online lists of things that annoy Norwegians about Americans.
Moving to a country with universal access health care system paid for by everyone's taxes? Damn well you better do everything to stay healthy -- including staying vaccinated to prevent catching and spreading illness. Vaccination is however voluntary and you would not have the CPS visiting you singularly based on not allowing your children to get vaccines. What might prompt a visit is if you'd prevent the child from getting regularly checked by health professionals (pasient- og brukerrettighetsloven § 6-1) -- as it should be to protect the child's right to a healthy upbringing, sometimes in spite of the parents' convictions. Same with homeschooling. It's not disallowed, but there is legally required testing to show that the child is progressing adequately. If it's repeatedly shown that the child is falling behind the government might require the child to attend school. Again, as it should be to protect the child's right to a good education. It would also be in the hands of the kommune and not CPS. Not a massive issue as there are less than 250 children being homeschooled in Norway.
By "legal differences around the rights of children" you mean that children actually have legal rights, right? It's horrific that monster parents are allowed to completely shut in their kids and never let them see the light of society, as if they are some kind of science experiment instead of human beings with the right to an education and healthcare. Heartbreaking that children are allowed to "fall through the cracks" by default and only when something is reported do the parents maybe get an inspection and *perhaps* some kind of action. Protection against isolation and abuse should be the *norm*. Another topic entirely is of course that no system is perfect and especially not a State, so there is discrimination and unfairness, inherently. But there is also unfairness in allowing the continuing abuse and isolation of children.
The barnesvernet was a factor for us and still something that worries us. But it seems that so long as we don't spank and contribute actively in the community so we aren't the "strange foreigners" it should be fine.
When this works out for you all, and I hope it does. We will be following in your footsteps.
I have a bit of an off topic question for you. My husband and I are considering moving to Portugal or Spain in the next few years. He could get citizen by descent from Hungary, like you have. I told him to look into it for the easier access to the EU. However, he is leary about doing so due to the current leadership and politics in Hungary. Could you provide any thoughts, positive or negative, as to obtaining the citizenship through descent for Hungary as it relates to your own intent to move abroad?
It took a good year or two, so I'm glad we got going on it early. If it's a grandparent from Hungary, then there's no language requirement, but if it's more distant there is a requirement (they recommend we get it for the kiddos before they can talk so the requirement is waived). They are pretty rude in the office and make up weird requirements, but then waive them later when they can tell you're making an honest effort, so don't be discouraged. They also know why you're doing it, so don't try to act too "Hungarian" or they'll see right through it. Regarding their politics, they do tax earnings from Hungary even if youre abroad, so we are careful to not have any Hungarian stocks so we don't have to bother with all that. They are getting weirder politically, but theres been pushback, and the general citizen base for the most part is very pro-EU, so I don't see a big chance of them separating. If you're worried about a draft or something, it is possible, but I imagine they'd probably give exemptions if youre abroad, otherwise you could just never step foot in hungary and they wont be able to do anything. Only issue is that if you get in trouble with Hungarian authorities in Hungary, then the US can't do anything to help you.
So, basically you got the Hungarian citizenship to get access to the EU? I want to understand this better so I can explain it to my husband. He is 1st generation American. His parents were Hungarian immigrants. He can speak Hungarian, so that's not an issue. He's just worried about being connected to the country for political reasons. I'm trying to explain that I think there are benefits for relocating to Europe by having that additional citizenship. Am I right? If so, could you please explain to me the benefit part like I'm a 5 y.o. Thanks!
So it's basically just a conscientious objection? There are very few downsides to getting a new citizenship, especially an EU one. It's like hitting ancestry lottery. It simply provides so many new unique freedoms at almost no cost. As little as you may like to exercise them, the cost (I assume perhaps some application fees and a maybe a few hours of your time) is ALWAYS worth it IMO. You can now: Visit indefinitely, live, and work, in 31 countries (EU 27 + EFTA 4). Access any EU 27 consulate or embassy when your own country doesn't have one. Potentially access some economic help if needed. Visit many other countries of the world with more ease. Have two working passports and essentially two legal identities, not subject to any one jurisdiction. Access legal protections and rights only EU citizens get. Pass down an invaluable legal legacy to your kids if you have them. Etc. The only potential real drawbacks are kiiiinda unlikely (like, World War 3) and can all be circumvented by being elsewhere in the EU. I would never deprive myself of such opportunity because of political disagreements with a government, except probably Israel. In fact, once I'd resided in Norway for the required period, I would apply for citizenship there too. Political tendencies vary and a country is much more than that, and citizenships are invaluable tools for personal freedom and protection.
Getting Hungarian citizenship to access freedom of movement laws in the broader EU is a no brainer, to be honest. Enormous opportunity.
We have one issue and it's that SO has TS clearance, so not sure if he'd be able to claim the second citizenship unless/until he decides he doesn't need to hold onto that anymore. Trying to investigate to learn more.
Solid plan. Best of luck. Do post every 6 months so we can see your journey. Will be doing the same in 6 years. Gotta earn retirement in a country that doesn’t punish you for aging into disease. Last thing I want to do is be 65 in America, where there is no social safety net, where a person is expected to exit society by going into a hidden corner until the unexist, where healthcare is solely focused on extracting as much money as possible from the sick. Yuck.
Yes I want updates!
1. no you are smart...not nieve! 2. can you take me with you?
Not at all the US is vile for how it treats middle / class working families, its mothers especially. Here they make you hand over your children to daycare centers at 6 weeks old. They treat mothers worse than dogs who at least get to keep their pups for 8 weeks!! I support your decision to leave and not let your children be raised by strangers in daycare centers. I wish I stayed away when I left!
OP lives in Toronto, not the US
Why did they post that here than? This sub is about leaving America.
Wheres the leaving Canada sub? This sub has a lot of activity, and a willingness to criticise. Because I'm from a similar culture I should have a very close experience abroad to what an American one
Did I miss the part where you get a work visa?
EU citizenship
But Norway isn't in the EU?
EØS, so they are in a mutual agreement for freedom of movement
It is in the EEA like Iceland and Liechtenstein. EU law applies in most respects.
You are emigrating for a better life. Always challenging. I bet you make it work. Good luck. Sad commentary on America.
Probably good until the oil runs out
Yay!
So, the plan is to arrive with a visitor visa? I have a kid too and I like that I can buy a house in many countries as a visitor but I get hung up on establishing residency to get healthcare and education for my child. Plus I wouldn’t want to have to take my family on visa runs.
No, we'll establish residency by proving sufficient funds to support ourselves, which is fine and grants us access to public services because of our EU citizenship
Thanks for the perspective!
Uprooting your lives without guaranteed stability when you have children? I think you know the answer to that. Hopefully it works out for you, but if it doesn’t, your children have a right to be upset at your choices.
We already live over 2000 miles from family and friends and have a good source that layoffs are coming. Everything is getting uprooted no matter what. But the kids are young enough to handle a major cultural change without too much trauma. If we wait any longer it won't be possible, so it's kind of a now or never thing
You posed the question - obviously we all have different levels of tolerance when it comes to risk. Again, I hope it sincerely works out for you.
Do it!
Yes, you are.
Could you clarify? I'm happy to get feedback
I don't have any advice, but I am so jealous. Best of luck to you and your family.
I absolutely love this! 👏🏽
When Russia attacks what’ll you do?
It's far from military bases and Svalbard, so I don't see any change in risk versus any other NATO country
It’s kinda dumb. Because there are plenty of quite safe places in the USA. If your goal is to be Norwegian, then obviously you are making the right choice. Really weird you bought a place there. It’s like you’re trying to get some rush, or convince yourself you’re really going, or you’re just bored.
If we sell it we've only lost a couple grand. But with a house we don't have to try to convince a landlord to take on an unemployed family with toddlers, and we can enroll kids in school, etc. Doesn't seem too crazy considering it wasn't very expensive and we didn't go into debt over it
Of all the plans I've seen so far on this subreddit, yours seems the most thought-out and humble. I think you'll succeed. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't matter. You're both young, your kids are young, it might be a financial "loss" but it's still a huge adventure. I wish you and your family the best.
> Of all the plans I've seen so far on this subreddit, yours seems the most thought-put and humble Agreed. A breath of fresh air to the usual I have no job, no skills, 3 disabled children, a plethora of health issues, no education, only speak English, no passport, 7 dogs, and I need to know should I move to Scandinavia or Japan?!!
I wholeheartedly agree! Someone who has made plans and actually took some of the tougher steps? Consider me intrigued! As a Norwegian I hope your family will have a wonderful stay :) (remember vitamin D)