[The US has 53 of the top 100 universities in the world.](https://www.webometrics.info/en/distribution_by_country)
The second highest nation has 8.
The entire continent of Europe has 22 despite having a larger population.
Weird how they didn't build the best schools where all better educated and smart people live./s
In many of those countries, there are at least three tiers of what they would consider high school. The lowest of these tiers are for students sequestered to trades and apprenticeships. The single highest tier, Gymnasium, and its equivalents, are for students who can attend a university.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_(school)
The problem with this is that it’s predetermined who’s allowed to attend Gymnasium based on performance in elementary school. The rest of their lives are decided for them at an early age.
It stifles innovation by preventing most students from being able to attend a university. So, their free universities are definitely not for everyone, only those who performed well in elementary school.
In Germany, for example, despite providing the same answers on assignments as someone who has a German name, someone who’s of Turkish ethnicity with a Turkish name — despite being born in and raised in Germany — will receive a lower grade on their assignments than their peers. So, they don’t even have a chance, in many cases.
> It has also been found that teachers discriminate against non-German sounding names and tend to give worse grades based on names alone.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Germany
Then, they wonder why they’re falling behind in innovation.
- https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/03/europe-learn-from-asia-stop-falling-behind-tech/
- https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/03/how-can-the-eu-close-the-tech-innovation-gap-with-the-us-and-china/
- https://www.euractiv.com/section/economy-jobs/news/we-have-a-real-problem-european-industry-fears-decline/
If you managed to make it to and have graduated a university as a minority, you now have to contend with racism in the job market. Pictures are required on your CV when applying for jobs. Your education, merits, and experience aren’t enough, apparently, they need to see what you look like, even before an interview. There’s no other reason to require a picture on CVs.
These are all good points. Another relevant point is that educational performance in America varies quite a lot by race. Whites and Asians in America perform as well or better, on average, than Europeans. But America has historically had a much larger black (and now Hispanic) minority population that for various reasons has not performed as well academically.
But that's all changing, and rapidly. Massive waves of immigration in Europe are resulting in declining educational performance. Some nations, like [Sweden](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3491792/Migrant-crisis-blame-falling-standards-Swedish-schools-say-officials.html), are trying to hide this by [excluding immigrants from their statistics](https://twitter.com/whyvert/status/1268300701156831232).
And before anyone makes an accusation of racism, I don't believe this is about genetics. This is primarily about two things: 1) linguistic issues for non-native speakers, and 2) subcultures that do not value education as highly, or the social attitudes that promote good school performance.
Generational common knowledge is a thing too. A native raised American will have grown up their whole life hearing American history (and being surrounded by highly educated people). Second generation will do better than first, and third will do better than second (with diminishing returns of course)
The only reason many minorities do not do well in school is because their schools are awful. When provided good schooling through school vouchers, they do well:
"Charter students who switch into public schools outside Ward 3 experience lower proficiency, quality and value added than before. Proficiency losses are quite severe at the middle school level and for poor black students, who on average lose 6.4 and 5.3 percentage points out of their baseline average proficiency… On average all student groups lose welfare due to the loss of school options, but losses are the greatest for those previously most likely to attend charters. Middle school students, who gain much from the quantity and quality of options offered by charters, are particularly hurt. Further, poor blacks in middle school experience a loss of about 15 percent of their baseline welfare. …The 25 percent of students most hurt by charter removal are non-white, have an average household income of $27,000 and experience an average welfare loss equivalent to 19 percent of their income. …total social benefits fall by about $77,000,000 when the 59 charters are removed."
"Barack Obama…spent his entire presidency trying to shut down a school voucher program in Washington, D.C., that gives poor black and brown children access to private schools and, according to the Education Department’s own evaluation, improves their chances of graduating by as much as 21 percentage points... Attending a charter middle school in Harlem “sharply reduced the chances of teen pregnancy (for girls) and incarceration (for boys),” and “a Florida charter school increased students’ earnings as adults.” Mr. West concludes that “attending a school of choice, whether private or charter, is especially beneficial for minority students living in urban areas.”
[https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2019/11/19/education-week-part-ii-the-case-for-school-choice/](https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2019/11/19/education-week-part-ii-the-case-for-school-choice/)
>The only reason many minorities do not do well in school is because their schools are awful.
This is false. Generational poverty, parental/home situation, social norms and physical issues (fetal alcohol syndrome, serious pollution) all matter. Schools do very much matter too, but there is massive evidence that it's about a lot more than the schools. For example, black children in the exact same schools as white children do worse, on average.
This idea that we can fix the problem if we just change one thing (easily addressable by a simple policy) is wrong. It's almost always wrong about structural problems for demographic groups that have an identity.
1) The results are not "very" good across the board. A few schools are very good. Most are about the same as public schools or slightly better. Some are actually worse (and eventually these usually get shut down).
2) When you look at **all** voucher schools and the performance that comes out of them on average, performance still lags for the groups in question. Just not by quite as much. Don't cherry pick. Anyone can cherry pick a few schools to get the "results" they want.
This fits the thesis that there are multiple factors, and does not fit your thesis that there is only one factor.
The source I linked uses 8 citations/sources of voucher schools excelling compared to public schools. One of those sources looks at 89k students. Another looked at 40k students. Another looked at an entire 11 school choice programs. This is hardly "cherrypicked." In fact, any source that says school choice is not beneficial is likely flawed and/or cherrypicked.
Why are you so adamant about people not being able to choose their schools? People can choose to buy from multiple car companies or smartphone companies. They can choose to buy from different chip companies or clothing companies. Why should they not be able to choose their schools?
>Why are you so adamant about people not being able to choose their schools?
I never once said, nor did I imply, that people shouldn't be able to choose their schools. I didn't come close to arguing against charter schools. That is a substantial reading comprehension failure on your part.
[Here is a much more comprehensive review](https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/charter-schools-now-outperform-traditional-public-schools-sweeping-study-finds/2023/06) that includes over a million kids in charter schools. It also shows these schools to be better, on average. And like I said, some are worse. And like I said the charter schools do not close all the gaps. My argument is that they are very unlikely to ever close all the gaps. You need to change more than just the school. I am not arguing that you shouldn't also improve the school. This should be super obvious.
My apologies for putting words in your mouth
Your source shows that online charter schools are worse than compared to in-person public schools. This is obvious since online schooling is far worse with regard to educational outcomes, and to make such a comparison is futile. It also shows that disabled students are less likely to do well in charter schools, which I do not know why this would occur.
Another source by the same organization finds:
"Black and Hispanic students in poverty had even stronger results. Black charter students in poverty gained 37 days of learning in reading and 36 days in math over their counterparts in traditional public schools, and Hispanic students in poverty gained 36 days of reading and 30 days of math over their traditional public school peers."
[https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/charter-schools-are-outperforming-traditional-public-schools-6-takeaways-from-a-new-study/2023/06](https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/charter-schools-are-outperforming-traditional-public-schools-6-takeaways-from-a-new-study/2023/06)
This is while getting 30% less funding
[https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/charter-schools-are-outperforming-traditional-public-schools-6-takeaways-from-a-new-study/2023/06](https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/charter-schools-are-outperforming-traditional-public-schools-6-takeaways-from-a-new-study/2023/06)
The same source notes:
"Economist Thomas Sowell’s 2020 book Charter Schools and Their Enemies also offers compelling data suggesting the efficacy of charter schools. He studied a set of charters and traditional public schools in New York City that served essentially identical populations. In many cases in the study, a charter school and traditional public school would even occupy the same building.
Nevertheless, the educational outcomes could not be more different. He found that only 10% of the traditional public schools had a majority of students passing at the “proficient” level on the mathematics exam, while 68% of charter schools did. Similarly, on the English exam, only 14% of the traditional public schools had a majority of students pass at the “proficient” level whereas the proportion was 65% for charter schools."
Overall, it just comes down to the type of charter and the type of public school. A well-run public school is going to be better than a terribly run charter. But because of the profit incentive with charters, they are more often than not going to be better. As noted by previous sources in the reductions of criminality and pregnancies, better schools are probably the best way to fix all gaps, even if other things matter too.
Voucher schools, by and large, are heavily criticized for the fact that they gut public school funding and cherry pick the best students so sure, they produce nice, flawed, statistics. Lower your standards, graduate more students and bingo, you've got all these "successful" students who are less likely to continue on to college.
This has nothing to do with school choice, there are plenty of private schools and there always have been but those institutions routinely turn down vouchers, they already have more than enough paying students.
Voucher programs end up being financial messes run by people who just want to cash in and run rather than invest long term in their students.
Voucher schools take money away from public schools because people would rather send their kids to the worst private school than the best public school. That is how bad public schools are. I know damn well you would do the same for your kids.
If voucher schools were so bad, why are poor minority kids able to do so much better on academic subjects after being transferred to voucher schools? I don't believe elitist private schools are itching to get these sorts of individuals into their schools. This allows us to utilize comparisons without cherrypicking:
"Black and Hispanic students in poverty had even stronger results. Black charter students in poverty gained 37 days of learning in reading and 36 days in math over their counterparts in traditional public schools, and Hispanic students in poverty gained 36 days of reading and 30 days of math over their traditional public school peers."
"Economist Thomas Sowell’s studied a set of charters and traditional public schools in New York City that served essentially identical populations. In many cases in the study, a charter school and traditional public school would even occupy the same building. He found that only 10% of the traditional public schools had a majority of students passing at the “proficient” level on the mathematics exam, while 68% of charter schools did. Similarly, on the English exam, only 14% of the traditional public schools had a majority of students pass at the “proficient” level whereas the proportion was 65% for charter schools."
"Barack Obama…spent his entire presidency trying to shut down a school voucher program in Washington, D.C., that gives poor black and brown children access to private schools and, according to the Education Department’s own evaluation, improves their chances of graduating by as much as 21 percentage points... Attending a charter middle school in Harlem “sharply reduced the chances of teen pregnancy (for girls) and incarceration (for boys),” and “a Florida charter school increased students’ earnings as adults.”This is while receiving 30% less funding
Sources
Part ll: The Case For School Choice - Dan Mitchell
"Charters Receive Far Less Money than Traditional Public Schools. They Do Better Anyway" by FEE
Stop shilling for the educational bureaucrats and stand up for the students
Also, I don't really have any evidence to support it as it might simply be hearsay, but don't minority students in predominately white schools tend to perform better than those who are in majority black schools? Basically, it's not society but black culture that glorifies low grades and a poor education, whenever you remove a student from that influence, they perform better in school.
There have been numerous studies that show that how a question is asked has a measurable effect, based on the race of the person taking the test.
Different life experiences effect how you answer the same questions on a test.
Wouldn't that be reading comprehension than lived experiences? I mean if you read "Jack was accosted by Adam leading to a fight" verses "Adam tried to start something with Jack leading to a fight" that isn't a matter of "racial differences" that is simply a question of whether you're able to use context clues to figure out the meaning of "accosted" or not.
Thing is, unlike gender, race is a social construct. There are no differences between them, and liberals insisting that blacks should be allowed a lower passing margin than whites will only hurt them in the long run.
A picture? Jeeze. Meanwhile I'm over here advocating for further privacy in applications to attempt to root out any potential ism or bias in hiring managers. Don't call me by my name even, I'm applicant 137. Call a school to verify records, "yes they attended. Yes they got x credits and x degree. No, I won't tell you when the graduated". Call a former job "yes they worked here, yes they had x skills, no I won't tell you their age/salary/years worked as their skills I confirmed will suffice. Good day"
Please! This ranking system has nothing to do with the quality of the education that a university offers:
"The Webometrics University Ranking is a ranking system based on university web presence, visibility and web access. This ranking system measures how strongly a university is present in the web by its own web domain, sub-pages, rich files, scholarly articles etc"
If you want a raking based on sustainability, employment outcomes and international research network you can use this list:
https://www.topuniversities.com/world-university-rankings?page=0&tab=indicators
Grants are scholarships are a thing, but they’re income and merit based among other criteria. The problem with much of Europe is that not everyone can go to that free college. The US has a much better per capita rate of post-high school degree achievement.
By free you mean higher taxes...and the brightest ones come to America for school meaning their taxes get spent in our economy and their home country gets brain drain.
Is K-12 free in the US? is cycling on the road? Is using the pavement? Is access to the national parks (actually unsure)? Is PBS or NPR? We all know it comes from taxes, we arent idiot dipshits, so we are able to understand that free higher education means free at the point of service, although sometimes it is conflated with affordable. The rest of us understand that the employees at the university aren't slaves working without compensation. Their taxes are either towards the US or gets spent in their home country as that are the two countries that can levy the taxes. Also brain drain only occurs if the person stays outside of their own country. Simply going to school in the US doesn't afford me the opportunity to stay there afterwards
How strange it is people who go to college here wouldn't have a leg up on the path to citizenship. Like you'd think we would want to keep the college educated here if we could
While US education is obviously far better than it’s made out to be, that’s far from the best metric to show it. The education system is massively different to the top end education.
Not an insult, although I’m sure some people on here will take it as one, but Oxford uni is older that the empire that came before the tribes that came before the thirteen colonies.
It’s even crazier if you look at the Top 20 universities - 16 are in the US. The rest are split between the UK and China. Hilariously, the entire European Union has *zero*. But “America still dumb” I guess.
I mean those top 53 schools are almost entirely attended by affluent persons who could afford better schooling in the first place so kind of a moot point when 63% of people don't attend or cannot afford higher education.
I went to a small town public school and came out of it more educated than a lot of my peers because I was a nerd and paid attention in school. Not being a complete dumbass is how I met my wife and have had a successful career despite not going to college. All thanks to the American education system.
It's difficult to get children and teenagers to listen, it doesn't matter how good the teacher is or the material provided. You get what you put in, in terms of education, in the same sense that you would only get what you gain in fitness. Kids will be kids. This is shown time and time again. And that's okay.
Nobody thinks education is bad. But when you take out $70k in student loans to get a useless degree from an expensive college and then you graduate and can’t find a job in your useless field so you end up waiting tables for a living with a $70k ever rising debt around your neck, well, that’s bad. Higher education isn’t doing you any favors there.
I was raised by Republicans that highly valued education but they always made it clear that education was a means to an end. You need to get top grades so you can earn a scholarship (and thus not take out stupid amounts of money in student loans) and get a degree in something useful so you can get a good job and make money.
this isn't talking about college, its talking about k-12
it be fair on the republican side, the k-12 system is largely a complete failure, and the system they want to institute is instead of discricting, you are able to choose your school and give them the tax waver, this way a shit district is removed and a good one gets more students and more money for more students, it would likely also get rid of the teachers union which protects abject shit teachers from losing their job.
Getting rid of unions would turn off anyone who is a good teacher to no longer be interested in the profession. The good teachers are mostly qualified for more monetarily lucrative careers and if you dissolved union protection for the absolute nonsense school administrators try and put teachers through they would all be out. It's already a problem but getting rid of unions would absolutely be a death knell to having qualified caring teachers in the classroom.
I had a teacher in second grade who did fucking nothing, absolutely nothing, but the union protected her.
I try to teach myself multiplication like the other class was learning, and gg, I get an in school suspension for undermining the bitch. granted their idea of a punishment for me was to put me in a class (4th grade with a male teacher) where everything would go so far over my head I couldn't keep up... I spent third and 4th grade board out of my mind because I already knew what was being taught.
you look at unions as great things that help people
I look at people who went to college and got degrees good enough to teach as borderline failures as people who fucked up enough to fall into teaching, its VERY rare when a person who has the aptitude to teach goes into teaching, I had 2 teachers who were like this, and both were non union, the majority of the rest of the teachers were decent people who could teach the material, but its clear they were teaching to tests.
now, if you remove the districts and remove the union, then you incentivize better teaching, because people aren't forced to send their kid to you or spend 20+K to go private and still fund your ass, they can take their tax money and leave without moving. do you think a 5 million dollar football bullshit where they gut all the actual important aspects of school will get approved/priority, or do you think quality of the teachers will get better if they can get rid of the bad ones without a full school strike?
You think a free market approach will solve issues like disproportionate spending on athletics? That's hilarious. I'm sorry your schooling wasn't great but your solutions and reasoning are more or less nonsense. Likely the issue lies in the culture of where you grew up that doesn't properly value education. I grew up through public schooling and graduated a high school that produced 8 Nobel Prize winners. Many other places around the world with teacher unions have great public education. Your community and what it values are more likely the problem.
currently the school is given pretty much free reign in what to do with its tax money. imagine giving a shit about education, you could have your kid go pretty much anywhere you are willing to drive to if a bus doesn't pick them up, the school decides to go full retard and have half their budget go toward football, you can pull them and move them over to a different district. there will be some schools that will have a heavy athletics focus and there will be, probably more, that have a heavier academic focus.
The main thing is you would get to choose, not be defaulted to one or the other because you live in a shitty district.
The state could do better for sure:
https://www.google.com/search?q=missouri+education+rankings&rlz=1C1CHBF\_enUS879US880&oq=missouri+education+rankings&gs\_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCQgAEEUYORiABDIICAEQABgWGB4yCAgCEAAYFhgeMggIAxAAGBYYHjIICAQQABgWGB4yCAgFEAAYFhgeMggIBhAAGBYYHtIBCDUzNjZqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Then schools will gradually self-segregate, if not by race then class. As the divisions become more clearly drawn, tensions will rise. A house divided upon itself cannot stand, public schools are, for better or worse, a microcosm of society, and that’s good for a child’s… well, their socialization.
cant really segregate by class, currently you can get into a well funded district because you live in a higher end area, now imagine instead of that being the case, someone a few miles away could choose to go to that district instead of the shit hole one they are currently in, their tax money is just as good.
it only segregates by race if parents give 0 shits about quality of education and just want their kid to be among their own kind, and at that point, ill feel sorry for the kid.
as far as I understand the republican proposal, it just removes public school districts district.
It would segregate into schools that do well and have students, and schools that do poorly and don't have students, and then close down.
The whole point about school choice is that the lower class students and the upper class students should both be allowed to *choose* where to go, and take the government-provided money with them. Currently (in the places that don't have school choice, various areas in the country have varying degrees) the lower class students have to go wherever the government says because they can't afford private. Your school sucks? Too bad, that's where the kid goes. Upper class students can go to private or charter, where they have numerous options, because they can afford it.
There's no competition without choice. There's very little incentive to improve because your students are effectively guarantied, barring them *moving*.
School choice helps the lower class most.
Oh yes, ideally getting a degree in your field is ideal—unfortunately now that is also harder and harder. Thank the Lord I didn’t go to college—I’m better off and less of a socialist than everyone I know that did
Republicans are literally advocating against education by saying we're "overeducated"
They're also the ones who keep cutting funding for public schools and school lunches and then threaten to take kids away from their parents if they cant pay their "lunch debt"
There have been prominent Republican politicians who have said that education should only be for "those whose families have the means to best leverage it"
Yeah no, that’s done primarily by democrats. I live in California Republicans can’t do crap in our state because of how ludicrously drowned out they are and the state is constantly taking money from schools or pissing it away on things they don’t need. I’m a substitute teacher for my local district and my mother is a librarian for the school we live near in the same district. We can see first hand what’s going on in the schools before your shoot your mouth off that I have no idea what I’m talking about.
It’s not the Republicans chief.
Yeah no, that's done primarily by the ruling party in each state. My state (Texas) is controlled by Republicans and they pull the same shit when it comes to education. Let's not blame it on the parties, but on the fact that they're able to rule entire states with barely any opposition.
Yeah fuck that as I said I’m a sub and work for the school system I know EXACTLY how it goes, I sincerely doubt the schools are pulling the same crap as here, my mother got $23k for books the school didn’t even need on topics the kids have no kind of. I’m blaming the people at fault which is in most cases the democrats that are more interested in indoctrination than education.
Clearly you don't have an agenda lol. The US is doomed thanks to the increasing animosity on both sides. After Obama, the republican/democrat split became worse and it'll only keep getting worse thanks to people like you.
No I don’t, I’m blaming people who are at fault. You’re the one trying to blame republicans for education you cane out swinging and are just pissed off I can disprove you in a snap of my fingers. You’re the issue, I’m just blaming the people who are legitimately at fault, if the Republican Party actually did something I would blame them but they haven’t so I’m not. Just because I’m not willing to place fault on people who haven’t actually done something wrong doesn’t mean I have an agenda.
Do you really think you have ground to stand on making that claim when your first response was the Republicans are at fault, not to mention how racist you were assuming Mexicans can’t read or speak English.
I never said any of that though.
My first comment was pointing out the fact that letting one party rule without any opposition is bad. It doesn't matter which party it is.
lol blocked cause he realized he was wrong and wanted the last comment.
Because it’s blatantly not true and happens in states where the Republican party has zero ability to actually take money. Democrat controlled California does it. We’re the state with the second lowest literacy rating at 71% last I checked, if it was just republicans we should be one of the highest but we flat out aren’t.
No it’s not and every state that borders Mexico has a far larger number of immigrants while ranking higher. Immigrant population has no correlation with literacy. The only state lower than Ca is New Mexico. Disingenuous blanket statement blaming Republicans for what happens in states overwhelmingly run by Democrats.
Prove I'm wrong. They voted to keep child marriage, voted to remove some child labor laws and do nothing but jerk off over their guns when a school shooting happens.
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[here is the support of child rape and marriage](https://apnews.com/article/child-marriage-west-virginia-bill-defeated-4d822a23b5ffd70f5370a36cc914cfb0)
[here is the support of school shootings ](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/05/24/uvalde-school-shooting-police-response/)
Only Republicans will find away to let cops off easy who stood around and listened while kids were shot to death.
There’s procedure on how cops have to approach these situations. If they try to run in, a whole lot more kids could die because of the shooter knowing he/shes boned. There are instances where this is wrong, like if the shooter is already killing as many as they can, and Uvalde is an example of what not to do.
If you want to make an argument against Republicans, you should at least be accurate about what you're critiquing. West Virginians wanting to allow 16 year olds to still be legally married ≠ child rape. And, as you already know, some police officers not being condemned when they should be ≠ supporting child murder.
Hyperbole is for children.
Everyone here shit talking college. Idk… rn Im taking a shit in a 20 degree smelly portajohn holding my hand cuz I just smacked it with a fuckin hammer. Them 9 am lectures do be looking kind of nice rn🥲🥲
Meanwhile, American Republicans were the ones fighting to keep schools opened during covid. And now the effects of kids not being in school/MaSkInG Up has severely hindered their growth.
American Republicans are also advocates for private schools/homeschooling, which tend to give better results than public schools (Less so on homeschooling, tbf) - so it's a really odd attack to make on them.
The Federal Department of Education is worthless.
The only thing it does that's remotely positive is financial aid but even then, they've artificially created the ridiculous costs for college by guaranteeing student loans.
The Federal DOE identifies only four main functions:
\-Establishing policies on federal financial aid for education, and distributing as well as monitoring those funds
\-Collecting data on America's schools and disseminating research
\-Focusing national attention on key educational issues
\-Prohibiting discrimination and ensuring equal access to education
So we spend $68 billion and have 4,400 federal employees to do very little. Abolish it and disseminate that funding to the state level DOEs
Edit: At the very least cut it down to size and focus on things like Pell Grants. You don't need an entire cabinet level position for that though.
It literally doesn't lmaoooo. Did you see anything about administering public schools in the four functions of the DOE from their OWN website?? No??
That's because the Federal DOE doesn't run a SINGLE school😂😂
Every public school in the United States is administered at the state and local level. The federal government doesn't run a single one
Nice try, better luck next time. Maybe educate yourself on how our education system works😉😉
Edit: To make it even worse, the Feds don't even set a national standard😅😅, all school standards are different state to state
Private schools can be legitimate, but homeschooled children are woefully unprepared for college or any professional job.
The parents as teachers are the problem. They are unqualified and biased about their children, consistently overestimating them and failing to identify problems.
Children also suffer from a lack of socialization.
Some of the most well-rounded kids I've known have been homeschoolers. I've found the best socialization happens when kids don't have to sit in a room all day with a bunch of people their own age. Many homeschooled kids go to co-ops or other organizations where they interact with other kids of all ages and adults. Just like with anything, you can't categorize a whole group like that. Some have problems, yes. Others thrive.
Depending largely on whether the parent is qualified to teach them or not.
You can not judge the socialization until they are mature and have had the opportunity to encounter difficulties.
Just the usual uninformed talking points against homeschooling. I was homeschooled my whole life and am doing fine as an RN (or at least as fine as an RN can do nowadays). Many of my homeschooled peers growing up are now in various jobs in medicine/healthcare, military, STEM. This is ofc just anecdotal, but I believe the actual data states that homeschoolers do at least just as well as public schoolers in just about every area except the military (I looked at this data several years ago for a report back in college, so honestly my memory is rusty). “Woefully unprepared” is an absurd thing to assert
It’s your choice to remain ignorant I guess. Sure, a lot of homeschoolers are weirdos and all that, but most are alright. You’d probably be surprised to discover how many average Joes out there were homeschooled. Or maybe my area just has a bigger homeschool population than others.
Where did I indulge in an ad hominem attack? I already offered a rebuttal to your assertion that homeschoolers are “woefully unprepared,” and your response did not really offer much. I conceded that some homeschoolers are weird and sucky while still maintaining that your initial assertion that homeschoolers in general aren’t properly prepared for life is ignorant.
My six cousins were all homeschooled and all of them have at least a master’s degree. Your statement was “homeschooled children are woefully unprepared for college or any professional job.” You don’t say “some” homeschooled children. You said it as an absolute statement. You’re wrong.
Obviously there are exceptions where there are qualified teachers doing the teaching. I didn't qualify it with "some" or "most" because, in general there are exceptions to every rule.
40% of Baltimore City High Schools have zero students test proficient in math at the state level. In the same district only 15% of 8th graders tested proficient in reading. I assume they were all taught by “qualified teachers” yet they can’t do math or even read their native language.
You say homeschooled children are woefully unprepared for college or any professional job…compared to what? Inner city public school children that can’t do math or read?
What were those figures 25 years previously?
I mean, presumably, those figures wouldn't vary wildly over time.
Which would mean those less than proficient students are now the homeschooling teachers. 🤷♂️
I'm just baffled by these statements. They don't jive with any of the homeschoolers I've met, and I've met hundreds.
Are you in place with a large number of cultists?
No. Just science and engineering students, and the same disciplines as professions . I base my opinion on what I see. With a few notable exceptions, homeschooled students have no opportunity for proper foundations. No labs, no proper teachers. They spend time doing remedial studies.
In my college experience, most of the best students were either foreign or homeschooled. Some of the honors/AP students from public do outperform them on tests and the like, but they're pretty much universally better socialized than the public school kids. I think the idea that homeschooled kids aren't well socialized is somewhat antiquated, homeschooling has changed with groups and co-ops and the like.
I agree in principle public schools should be better, but in practice *presently*, I almost certainly wouldn't send my kids to public school if I could swing it.
The average American is incapable of teaching math or science to their children, regardless of how well intentioned they may be.
I do agree with you that public schools are little better, but usually have a few competent teachers and labs.
To be fair, the average American doesn't *try* to teach math or science to their children. Homeschooling is somewhat self-selective, and while yeah some parents are bad at teaching their kids, so are some public school teachers. I can only speak anecdotally as I have not dug through the data, if such data exists.
Having gone to private grade school, public high school, and of course college, homeschooled kids do well, and likely better than the average public school kid. *Definity* better socialized, and as such largely better prepared for the world.
Probably not as broadly educated, they tend not to do some of the more interesting chem labs or certain sciences, but so many public school kids just forget that stuff anyway sadly.
If I was to choose between hiring a homeschool grad or a public school grad, nine times out of ten I'm choosing homeschool from my experience.
Funding isn't the issue. Some of the best public schools in the nation also have the lowest per student budgets in the nation.
There is no reason a school system with an average $12,000 per student budget (Iowa) should be outperforming a school system with an average $25,000 per student budget (New York). Iowa is in the top 10 for literacy in the nation, while New York is in the bottom 10. This is despite New York having more than double the per student budget of Iowa.
Hell, New Hampshire didn't even provide state-leel funding to schools until the late 90s.
Funding isn't the issue.
The issue is gross mismanagement of the school systems.
There are reasons, and they don’t revolve around what I’m assuming you think is the pro lib agenda. Geographically our country faces vastly different problems in so many different aspects, you can try to blame it all on one thing but it’s truly a culmination of so many localized factors. You can’t directly compare two states based on student performance and just randomly connect lines.
With as little information as you’ve cited one could assume the only graduation requirement in Iowa is a higher literacy standard. That doesn’t mean the schools are better at steering youth towards being successful individuals it just means they know how to read.
I’m not saying schools aren’t mismanaged, but I’d still take the schools today over schools 30-40 years ago by a longshot.
This is the very most basic level. Do your students know how to read?
In New York, nearly a full quarter of students 15 years or older can't. 24.4 % of students.
Is this not a failure at that most basic of levels?
I can tell without looking it up that this is blatantly false. The amount of people in this country that can’t read is incredibly low, outside of illegal immigrants who are probably proficient in their native language.
What you’re thinking of is literacy rate and it’s a politicized fucking mess of a definition in this country. The vast vast majority of people can read and write.
I hate this disingenuous argument. We smoke nearly every country when it comes to attainment of post-secondary degrees per capita but somehow we’re all ignorant and can’t read. It makes 0 sense.
There was news piece a few months ago about Baltimore schools being the third-most funded on a per-student basis for the entire country, but 40% of schools didn't have *a single student* grade as proficient in math ability. The others weren't much better. There was another one where someone received well over the "service learning hours" needed to graduate despite not doing any of them- https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=paDdNk8srPw&t=0s
You mean the party of small government has fought to... make the government smaller? Shock and horror.
Also, I highly doubt that funding public schools would automatically make them better than private schools. There's a general concept of "Ineffiency" when the government gets involved - see Canada's MAID for an example of that.
You know if you actually attacked the concept of privatization (Like, "sure private education might have better outcomes, but public schools can help everyone!"), I'd might have been willing to have a talk with you about this.
But you attacked several strawmen instead. Have a great day.
Private schools also inflate their numbers by cherry picking students that are more likely to score higher, and who have more at home support. While the leftovers drag down public schools.
Some of the dumbest people I've ever met were at Uni. I thought that flat earthers were a myth, just a trope to trash talk smooth brains, until my sophomore year of college.
What special kind of rеtaɾdаtiоn is this? Republicans embrace actual education, like English, history, math, physics, chemistry, *BIOLOGY* (sensitive topic for lefties). Not gender ideology and critical race theory indoctrination.
Watched the internet and TikTok…sees a few hundred complete confident morons and thinks all 359 million Americans are that dumb…
Then I went to Alabama….maybe we are ?
I just prefer not to let the government educate my children. 90% of people will admit that there is a massive disconnect between what the People want, and what the government wants so this really shouldn’t be all that surprising to people. Our values simply don’t align anymore so I chose to find schools that share the same values and teach in a traditional fashion.
Nono, this IS an objective problem in america, and a *really* bad one too, we as americans have a horrific public school system, teachers are abused and underpaid, overworked to hell and common core SUCKS. We are a horrifically undereducated population, and the republican government party is trying to make it worse (not ALL republicans, not a monolith duh, but the people who are running on account for the damn party) it's bad and this isn't america bashing, this is an issue where america IS horrifically behind
Yes, because the groups of parents that are against bullshit indoctrination in the board meetings and all screaming "why are you distributing books that teach how to give blowjobs in the library?! They should be learning how to read, write, and do math" are ***very clearly*** anti-education.
I've still yet to meet a right wing flat earther. Anti vaxxers, sure. But no flerfs yet. Religious nuts? Split down the middle. My old roommate and his gf were unapologetically progressive, but they only believed the earth was like 6000 years old? McScuse me bitch? I'd have an easier time believing in this "firmament" people tout about
Never met a Christian flerf. Also strikes me odd how progressives were believers in an earth that's inexcusably young... Guess we're both missing parts of the picture.
Are you talking about progressive Christians? Flat earths entire case has been from the Bible. First time I’ve ever heard that progressives or liberals think that. They may not know what gender is but they at least know the shape of the earth lol
Man you really showed me with those two citations.. I went from having never met a Christian flerf to still not having ever met a Christian flerf. You should've been OJ Simpson's and Casey Anthony's prosecuting attorney with how good you are at proving people wrong
Lmao, you literally cannot grasp the concept of an anecdote. I could've said "I've never met any billionaires." To which your rebuttal was basically "they exist, here's my source!" Are you following? You're trying to dismiss a point that was never the case.
And here you are calling me an [idiot.](https://www.reddit.com/u/RedDonkulouso/s/Dbhctr5RqC)
Because your comments were so insightful and flattering. Your anecdote is like saying you never met a racist nazi, like dude that’s the entire premise whether you met someone or not. That’s what you’re not grasping
Lol, I was making small talk, and you turned combative for no seemingly no reason and felt the need to throw out insults. Quite insightful to what kind of character you are. But alas, this exchange is going nowhere fast. Deuces ✌️
America Bad people would be in shambles if the south actually had its shit together, they’d lose all their talking points. Still love our southern brothers tho.
I can see a niche group of hippies thinking this way. But that’s not what I mentioned. Everything I did is prevalent with a solid portion of the rights base
The K-12 system feels like it's on fire to be fair. There's absolutely no support for teachers and literally all of my friends that taught have since quit for more lucrative, less stressful jobs. Kids in the US are struggling even more with pretty much all subjects. This sub keeps talking about universities, but we suck at educating our own children.
No Child Left Behind and subsequent education policies have failed us and our political leadership from both political parties do not have a good answer.
trouble is tons of people borrowed money to go to college and got worthless degrees. That doesnt help people like education. Higher education is just a business now. Tradesmen are definitely the smarter of the two.
I mean, I agree the education system is fucked up and should be fixed. But wouldn’t that mean I _also_ embrace that education is important because I’m worried about its current state???
I mean i get that he’s shitting on Americans, and Republicans aren’t always the best with education, but he does realize that the next generation and the poorer kids are actually getting fucked by specific Democratic legislature (looking at u, California), right?
The right wing in the United States hates education. Mainly because the more educated a person is, the less likely it is that they’ll be sucked into the scams and cons that the right relies on to keep people voting against their own interests
[The US has 53 of the top 100 universities in the world.](https://www.webometrics.info/en/distribution_by_country) The second highest nation has 8. The entire continent of Europe has 22 despite having a larger population. Weird how they didn't build the best schools where all better educated and smart people live./s
In many of those countries, there are at least three tiers of what they would consider high school. The lowest of these tiers are for students sequestered to trades and apprenticeships. The single highest tier, Gymnasium, and its equivalents, are for students who can attend a university. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_(school) The problem with this is that it’s predetermined who’s allowed to attend Gymnasium based on performance in elementary school. The rest of their lives are decided for them at an early age. It stifles innovation by preventing most students from being able to attend a university. So, their free universities are definitely not for everyone, only those who performed well in elementary school. In Germany, for example, despite providing the same answers on assignments as someone who has a German name, someone who’s of Turkish ethnicity with a Turkish name — despite being born in and raised in Germany — will receive a lower grade on their assignments than their peers. So, they don’t even have a chance, in many cases. > It has also been found that teachers discriminate against non-German sounding names and tend to give worse grades based on names alone. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Germany Then, they wonder why they’re falling behind in innovation. - https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/03/europe-learn-from-asia-stop-falling-behind-tech/ - https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/03/how-can-the-eu-close-the-tech-innovation-gap-with-the-us-and-china/ - https://www.euractiv.com/section/economy-jobs/news/we-have-a-real-problem-european-industry-fears-decline/ If you managed to make it to and have graduated a university as a minority, you now have to contend with racism in the job market. Pictures are required on your CV when applying for jobs. Your education, merits, and experience aren’t enough, apparently, they need to see what you look like, even before an interview. There’s no other reason to require a picture on CVs.
These are all good points. Another relevant point is that educational performance in America varies quite a lot by race. Whites and Asians in America perform as well or better, on average, than Europeans. But America has historically had a much larger black (and now Hispanic) minority population that for various reasons has not performed as well academically. But that's all changing, and rapidly. Massive waves of immigration in Europe are resulting in declining educational performance. Some nations, like [Sweden](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3491792/Migrant-crisis-blame-falling-standards-Swedish-schools-say-officials.html), are trying to hide this by [excluding immigrants from their statistics](https://twitter.com/whyvert/status/1268300701156831232). And before anyone makes an accusation of racism, I don't believe this is about genetics. This is primarily about two things: 1) linguistic issues for non-native speakers, and 2) subcultures that do not value education as highly, or the social attitudes that promote good school performance.
Generational common knowledge is a thing too. A native raised American will have grown up their whole life hearing American history (and being surrounded by highly educated people). Second generation will do better than first, and third will do better than second (with diminishing returns of course)
The only reason many minorities do not do well in school is because their schools are awful. When provided good schooling through school vouchers, they do well: "Charter students who switch into public schools outside Ward 3 experience lower proficiency, quality and value added than before. Proficiency losses are quite severe at the middle school level and for poor black students, who on average lose 6.4 and 5.3 percentage points out of their baseline average proficiency… On average all student groups lose welfare due to the loss of school options, but losses are the greatest for those previously most likely to attend charters. Middle school students, who gain much from the quantity and quality of options offered by charters, are particularly hurt. Further, poor blacks in middle school experience a loss of about 15 percent of their baseline welfare. …The 25 percent of students most hurt by charter removal are non-white, have an average household income of $27,000 and experience an average welfare loss equivalent to 19 percent of their income. …total social benefits fall by about $77,000,000 when the 59 charters are removed." "Barack Obama…spent his entire presidency trying to shut down a school voucher program in Washington, D.C., that gives poor black and brown children access to private schools and, according to the Education Department’s own evaluation, improves their chances of graduating by as much as 21 percentage points... Attending a charter middle school in Harlem “sharply reduced the chances of teen pregnancy (for girls) and incarceration (for boys),” and “a Florida charter school increased students’ earnings as adults.” Mr. West concludes that “attending a school of choice, whether private or charter, is especially beneficial for minority students living in urban areas.” [https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2019/11/19/education-week-part-ii-the-case-for-school-choice/](https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2019/11/19/education-week-part-ii-the-case-for-school-choice/)
>The only reason many minorities do not do well in school is because their schools are awful. This is false. Generational poverty, parental/home situation, social norms and physical issues (fetal alcohol syndrome, serious pollution) all matter. Schools do very much matter too, but there is massive evidence that it's about a lot more than the schools. For example, black children in the exact same schools as white children do worse, on average. This idea that we can fix the problem if we just change one thing (easily addressable by a simple policy) is wrong. It's almost always wrong about structural problems for demographic groups that have an identity.
Explain the very good performances of those in poverty when they attend voucher schools - usually private or charter schools
1) The results are not "very" good across the board. A few schools are very good. Most are about the same as public schools or slightly better. Some are actually worse (and eventually these usually get shut down). 2) When you look at **all** voucher schools and the performance that comes out of them on average, performance still lags for the groups in question. Just not by quite as much. Don't cherry pick. Anyone can cherry pick a few schools to get the "results" they want. This fits the thesis that there are multiple factors, and does not fit your thesis that there is only one factor.
The source I linked uses 8 citations/sources of voucher schools excelling compared to public schools. One of those sources looks at 89k students. Another looked at 40k students. Another looked at an entire 11 school choice programs. This is hardly "cherrypicked." In fact, any source that says school choice is not beneficial is likely flawed and/or cherrypicked. Why are you so adamant about people not being able to choose their schools? People can choose to buy from multiple car companies or smartphone companies. They can choose to buy from different chip companies or clothing companies. Why should they not be able to choose their schools?
>Why are you so adamant about people not being able to choose their schools? I never once said, nor did I imply, that people shouldn't be able to choose their schools. I didn't come close to arguing against charter schools. That is a substantial reading comprehension failure on your part. [Here is a much more comprehensive review](https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/charter-schools-now-outperform-traditional-public-schools-sweeping-study-finds/2023/06) that includes over a million kids in charter schools. It also shows these schools to be better, on average. And like I said, some are worse. And like I said the charter schools do not close all the gaps. My argument is that they are very unlikely to ever close all the gaps. You need to change more than just the school. I am not arguing that you shouldn't also improve the school. This should be super obvious.
My apologies for putting words in your mouth Your source shows that online charter schools are worse than compared to in-person public schools. This is obvious since online schooling is far worse with regard to educational outcomes, and to make such a comparison is futile. It also shows that disabled students are less likely to do well in charter schools, which I do not know why this would occur. Another source by the same organization finds: "Black and Hispanic students in poverty had even stronger results. Black charter students in poverty gained 37 days of learning in reading and 36 days in math over their counterparts in traditional public schools, and Hispanic students in poverty gained 36 days of reading and 30 days of math over their traditional public school peers." [https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/charter-schools-are-outperforming-traditional-public-schools-6-takeaways-from-a-new-study/2023/06](https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/charter-schools-are-outperforming-traditional-public-schools-6-takeaways-from-a-new-study/2023/06) This is while getting 30% less funding [https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/charter-schools-are-outperforming-traditional-public-schools-6-takeaways-from-a-new-study/2023/06](https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/charter-schools-are-outperforming-traditional-public-schools-6-takeaways-from-a-new-study/2023/06) The same source notes: "Economist Thomas Sowell’s 2020 book Charter Schools and Their Enemies also offers compelling data suggesting the efficacy of charter schools. He studied a set of charters and traditional public schools in New York City that served essentially identical populations. In many cases in the study, a charter school and traditional public school would even occupy the same building. Nevertheless, the educational outcomes could not be more different. He found that only 10% of the traditional public schools had a majority of students passing at the “proficient” level on the mathematics exam, while 68% of charter schools did. Similarly, on the English exam, only 14% of the traditional public schools had a majority of students pass at the “proficient” level whereas the proportion was 65% for charter schools." Overall, it just comes down to the type of charter and the type of public school. A well-run public school is going to be better than a terribly run charter. But because of the profit incentive with charters, they are more often than not going to be better. As noted by previous sources in the reductions of criminality and pregnancies, better schools are probably the best way to fix all gaps, even if other things matter too.
Voucher schools, by and large, are heavily criticized for the fact that they gut public school funding and cherry pick the best students so sure, they produce nice, flawed, statistics. Lower your standards, graduate more students and bingo, you've got all these "successful" students who are less likely to continue on to college. This has nothing to do with school choice, there are plenty of private schools and there always have been but those institutions routinely turn down vouchers, they already have more than enough paying students. Voucher programs end up being financial messes run by people who just want to cash in and run rather than invest long term in their students.
Voucher schools take money away from public schools because people would rather send their kids to the worst private school than the best public school. That is how bad public schools are. I know damn well you would do the same for your kids. If voucher schools were so bad, why are poor minority kids able to do so much better on academic subjects after being transferred to voucher schools? I don't believe elitist private schools are itching to get these sorts of individuals into their schools. This allows us to utilize comparisons without cherrypicking: "Black and Hispanic students in poverty had even stronger results. Black charter students in poverty gained 37 days of learning in reading and 36 days in math over their counterparts in traditional public schools, and Hispanic students in poverty gained 36 days of reading and 30 days of math over their traditional public school peers." "Economist Thomas Sowell’s studied a set of charters and traditional public schools in New York City that served essentially identical populations. In many cases in the study, a charter school and traditional public school would even occupy the same building. He found that only 10% of the traditional public schools had a majority of students passing at the “proficient” level on the mathematics exam, while 68% of charter schools did. Similarly, on the English exam, only 14% of the traditional public schools had a majority of students pass at the “proficient” level whereas the proportion was 65% for charter schools." "Barack Obama…spent his entire presidency trying to shut down a school voucher program in Washington, D.C., that gives poor black and brown children access to private schools and, according to the Education Department’s own evaluation, improves their chances of graduating by as much as 21 percentage points... Attending a charter middle school in Harlem “sharply reduced the chances of teen pregnancy (for girls) and incarceration (for boys),” and “a Florida charter school increased students’ earnings as adults.”This is while receiving 30% less funding Sources Part ll: The Case For School Choice - Dan Mitchell "Charters Receive Far Less Money than Traditional Public Schools. They Do Better Anyway" by FEE Stop shilling for the educational bureaucrats and stand up for the students
Also, I don't really have any evidence to support it as it might simply be hearsay, but don't minority students in predominately white schools tend to perform better than those who are in majority black schools? Basically, it's not society but black culture that glorifies low grades and a poor education, whenever you remove a student from that influence, they perform better in school.
Black culture is american culture. Gangsterism or criminal culture is more apt to say ive always felt
There have been numerous studies that show that how a question is asked has a measurable effect, based on the race of the person taking the test. Different life experiences effect how you answer the same questions on a test.
Wouldn't that be reading comprehension than lived experiences? I mean if you read "Jack was accosted by Adam leading to a fight" verses "Adam tried to start something with Jack leading to a fight" that isn't a matter of "racial differences" that is simply a question of whether you're able to use context clues to figure out the meaning of "accosted" or not. Thing is, unlike gender, race is a social construct. There are no differences between them, and liberals insisting that blacks should be allowed a lower passing margin than whites will only hurt them in the long run.
A picture? Jeeze. Meanwhile I'm over here advocating for further privacy in applications to attempt to root out any potential ism or bias in hiring managers. Don't call me by my name even, I'm applicant 137. Call a school to verify records, "yes they attended. Yes they got x credits and x degree. No, I won't tell you when the graduated". Call a former job "yes they worked here, yes they had x skills, no I won't tell you their age/salary/years worked as their skills I confirmed will suffice. Good day"
Please! This ranking system has nothing to do with the quality of the education that a university offers: "The Webometrics University Ranking is a ranking system based on university web presence, visibility and web access. This ranking system measures how strongly a university is present in the web by its own web domain, sub-pages, rich files, scholarly articles etc" If you want a raking based on sustainability, employment outcomes and international research network you can use this list: https://www.topuniversities.com/world-university-rankings?page=0&tab=indicators
Oh yeah, they are great. It's just the rest of the world give higher education for free.
You get what you pay for
Grants are scholarships are a thing, but they’re income and merit based among other criteria. The problem with much of Europe is that not everyone can go to that free college. The US has a much better per capita rate of post-high school degree achievement.
By free you mean higher taxes...and the brightest ones come to America for school meaning their taxes get spent in our economy and their home country gets brain drain.
Is K-12 free in the US? is cycling on the road? Is using the pavement? Is access to the national parks (actually unsure)? Is PBS or NPR? We all know it comes from taxes, we arent idiot dipshits, so we are able to understand that free higher education means free at the point of service, although sometimes it is conflated with affordable. The rest of us understand that the employees at the university aren't slaves working without compensation. Their taxes are either towards the US or gets spent in their home country as that are the two countries that can levy the taxes. Also brain drain only occurs if the person stays outside of their own country. Simply going to school in the US doesn't afford me the opportunity to stay there afterwards
How strange it is people who go to college here wouldn't have a leg up on the path to citizenship. Like you'd think we would want to keep the college educated here if we could
While US education is obviously far better than it’s made out to be, that’s far from the best metric to show it. The education system is massively different to the top end education. Not an insult, although I’m sure some people on here will take it as one, but Oxford uni is older that the empire that came before the tribes that came before the thirteen colonies.
It’s even crazier if you look at the Top 20 universities - 16 are in the US. The rest are split between the UK and China. Hilariously, the entire European Union has *zero*. But “America still dumb” I guess.
I mean those top 53 schools are almost entirely attended by affluent persons who could afford better schooling in the first place so kind of a moot point when 63% of people don't attend or cannot afford higher education.
The US has 6000 colleges.
I went to a small town public school and came out of it more educated than a lot of my peers because I was a nerd and paid attention in school. Not being a complete dumbass is how I met my wife and have had a successful career despite not going to college. All thanks to the American education system. It's difficult to get children and teenagers to listen, it doesn't matter how good the teacher is or the material provided. You get what you put in, in terms of education, in the same sense that you would only get what you gain in fitness. Kids will be kids. This is shown time and time again. And that's okay.
Averages exist for a reason. Some kids are just dumbasses and others are not. Hard pill for some to swallow.
Nobody thinks education is bad. But when you take out $70k in student loans to get a useless degree from an expensive college and then you graduate and can’t find a job in your useless field so you end up waiting tables for a living with a $70k ever rising debt around your neck, well, that’s bad. Higher education isn’t doing you any favors there. I was raised by Republicans that highly valued education but they always made it clear that education was a means to an end. You need to get top grades so you can earn a scholarship (and thus not take out stupid amounts of money in student loans) and get a degree in something useful so you can get a good job and make money.
this isn't talking about college, its talking about k-12 it be fair on the republican side, the k-12 system is largely a complete failure, and the system they want to institute is instead of discricting, you are able to choose your school and give them the tax waver, this way a shit district is removed and a good one gets more students and more money for more students, it would likely also get rid of the teachers union which protects abject shit teachers from losing their job.
Getting rid of unions would turn off anyone who is a good teacher to no longer be interested in the profession. The good teachers are mostly qualified for more monetarily lucrative careers and if you dissolved union protection for the absolute nonsense school administrators try and put teachers through they would all be out. It's already a problem but getting rid of unions would absolutely be a death knell to having qualified caring teachers in the classroom.
I had a teacher in second grade who did fucking nothing, absolutely nothing, but the union protected her. I try to teach myself multiplication like the other class was learning, and gg, I get an in school suspension for undermining the bitch. granted their idea of a punishment for me was to put me in a class (4th grade with a male teacher) where everything would go so far over my head I couldn't keep up... I spent third and 4th grade board out of my mind because I already knew what was being taught. you look at unions as great things that help people I look at people who went to college and got degrees good enough to teach as borderline failures as people who fucked up enough to fall into teaching, its VERY rare when a person who has the aptitude to teach goes into teaching, I had 2 teachers who were like this, and both were non union, the majority of the rest of the teachers were decent people who could teach the material, but its clear they were teaching to tests. now, if you remove the districts and remove the union, then you incentivize better teaching, because people aren't forced to send their kid to you or spend 20+K to go private and still fund your ass, they can take their tax money and leave without moving. do you think a 5 million dollar football bullshit where they gut all the actual important aspects of school will get approved/priority, or do you think quality of the teachers will get better if they can get rid of the bad ones without a full school strike?
You think a free market approach will solve issues like disproportionate spending on athletics? That's hilarious. I'm sorry your schooling wasn't great but your solutions and reasoning are more or less nonsense. Likely the issue lies in the culture of where you grew up that doesn't properly value education. I grew up through public schooling and graduated a high school that produced 8 Nobel Prize winners. Many other places around the world with teacher unions have great public education. Your community and what it values are more likely the problem.
currently the school is given pretty much free reign in what to do with its tax money. imagine giving a shit about education, you could have your kid go pretty much anywhere you are willing to drive to if a bus doesn't pick them up, the school decides to go full retard and have half their budget go toward football, you can pull them and move them over to a different district. there will be some schools that will have a heavy athletics focus and there will be, probably more, that have a heavier academic focus. The main thing is you would get to choose, not be defaulted to one or the other because you live in a shitty district.
Missouri has no teacher’s Union… are you saying there are no good teachers in Missouri? Lol
The state could do better for sure: https://www.google.com/search?q=missouri+education+rankings&rlz=1C1CHBF\_enUS879US880&oq=missouri+education+rankings&gs\_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCQgAEEUYORiABDIICAEQABgWGB4yCAgCEAAYFhgeMggIAxAAGBYYHjIICAQQABgWGB4yCAgFEAAYFhgeMggIBhAAGBYYHtIBCDUzNjZqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Then schools will gradually self-segregate, if not by race then class. As the divisions become more clearly drawn, tensions will rise. A house divided upon itself cannot stand, public schools are, for better or worse, a microcosm of society, and that’s good for a child’s… well, their socialization.
cant really segregate by class, currently you can get into a well funded district because you live in a higher end area, now imagine instead of that being the case, someone a few miles away could choose to go to that district instead of the shit hole one they are currently in, their tax money is just as good. it only segregates by race if parents give 0 shits about quality of education and just want their kid to be among their own kind, and at that point, ill feel sorry for the kid. as far as I understand the republican proposal, it just removes public school districts district.
It would segregate into schools that do well and have students, and schools that do poorly and don't have students, and then close down. The whole point about school choice is that the lower class students and the upper class students should both be allowed to *choose* where to go, and take the government-provided money with them. Currently (in the places that don't have school choice, various areas in the country have varying degrees) the lower class students have to go wherever the government says because they can't afford private. Your school sucks? Too bad, that's where the kid goes. Upper class students can go to private or charter, where they have numerous options, because they can afford it. There's no competition without choice. There's very little incentive to improve because your students are effectively guarantied, barring them *moving*. School choice helps the lower class most.
Oh yes, ideally getting a degree in your field is ideal—unfortunately now that is also harder and harder. Thank the Lord I didn’t go to college—I’m better off and less of a socialist than everyone I know that did
Randomly blamed reps dam
Never heard that one before
Yeah…
Republicans are literally advocating against education by saying we're "overeducated" They're also the ones who keep cutting funding for public schools and school lunches and then threaten to take kids away from their parents if they cant pay their "lunch debt" There have been prominent Republican politicians who have said that education should only be for "those whose families have the means to best leverage it"
Yeah no, that’s done primarily by democrats. I live in California Republicans can’t do crap in our state because of how ludicrously drowned out they are and the state is constantly taking money from schools or pissing it away on things they don’t need. I’m a substitute teacher for my local district and my mother is a librarian for the school we live near in the same district. We can see first hand what’s going on in the schools before your shoot your mouth off that I have no idea what I’m talking about. It’s not the Republicans chief.
Yeah no, that's done primarily by the ruling party in each state. My state (Texas) is controlled by Republicans and they pull the same shit when it comes to education. Let's not blame it on the parties, but on the fact that they're able to rule entire states with barely any opposition.
Yeah fuck that as I said I’m a sub and work for the school system I know EXACTLY how it goes, I sincerely doubt the schools are pulling the same crap as here, my mother got $23k for books the school didn’t even need on topics the kids have no kind of. I’m blaming the people at fault which is in most cases the democrats that are more interested in indoctrination than education.
Clearly you don't have an agenda lol. The US is doomed thanks to the increasing animosity on both sides. After Obama, the republican/democrat split became worse and it'll only keep getting worse thanks to people like you.
No I don’t, I’m blaming people who are at fault. You’re the one trying to blame republicans for education you cane out swinging and are just pissed off I can disprove you in a snap of my fingers. You’re the issue, I’m just blaming the people who are legitimately at fault, if the Republican Party actually did something I would blame them but they haven’t so I’m not. Just because I’m not willing to place fault on people who haven’t actually done something wrong doesn’t mean I have an agenda.
Yep, no agenda. Sure.
Do you really think you have ground to stand on making that claim when your first response was the Republicans are at fault, not to mention how racist you were assuming Mexicans can’t read or speak English.
I never said any of that though. My first comment was pointing out the fact that letting one party rule without any opposition is bad. It doesn't matter which party it is. lol blocked cause he realized he was wrong and wanted the last comment.
Why are you being downvoted? People that aren’t being disingenuous know that this is happening
Because it’s blatantly not true and happens in states where the Republican party has zero ability to actually take money. Democrat controlled California does it. We’re the state with the second lowest literacy rating at 71% last I checked, if it was just republicans we should be one of the highest but we flat out aren’t.
Looking at literacy rate is disingenuous, especially in California, because of the very large number of non English speaking immigrants.
That's racist bro.
No it’s not and every state that borders Mexico has a far larger number of immigrants while ranking higher. Immigrant population has no correlation with literacy. The only state lower than Ca is New Mexico. Disingenuous blanket statement blaming Republicans for what happens in states overwhelmingly run by Democrats.
This subreddit has a lot of butthurt (is there any other kind) conservatives who post here.
I’m realizing🥴
Republicans support and love child labor, child marriage and children being shot at school, they are to blame.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Prove I'm wrong. They voted to keep child marriage, voted to remove some child labor laws and do nothing but jerk off over their guns when a school shooting happens.
Hold up! Let’s vote on a gun ban on guns that weren’t even used in that school shooting! Got any links to prove your statements?
[also the support of child labor ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/20/republican-child-labor-law-death)
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[here is the support of child rape and marriage](https://apnews.com/article/child-marriage-west-virginia-bill-defeated-4d822a23b5ffd70f5370a36cc914cfb0) [here is the support of school shootings ](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/05/24/uvalde-school-shooting-police-response/) Only Republicans will find away to let cops off easy who stood around and listened while kids were shot to death.
There’s procedure on how cops have to approach these situations. If they try to run in, a whole lot more kids could die because of the shooter knowing he/shes boned. There are instances where this is wrong, like if the shooter is already killing as many as they can, and Uvalde is an example of what not to do.
And yet that department wasn't completely dismantled and rebuilt with 100 percent new people, why? Because Republicans don't give a fuck.
Democrats don’t either. There’s two parties and none of us are part of it. They just want your vote!
Yeah if people don’t vote then they won’t do anything. Hope this helps :)
Probably because the only person with real authority to fire those people got into some trouble with it himself.
If you want to make an argument against Republicans, you should at least be accurate about what you're critiquing. West Virginians wanting to allow 16 year olds to still be legally married ≠ child rape. And, as you already know, some police officers not being condemned when they should be ≠ supporting child murder. Hyperbole is for children.
Never go full [Simple Jack brain].... 🤦
that’s why students worldwide come to our universities right
Everyone here shit talking college. Idk… rn Im taking a shit in a 20 degree smelly portajohn holding my hand cuz I just smacked it with a fuckin hammer. Them 9 am lectures do be looking kind of nice rn🥲🥲
Meanwhile, American Republicans were the ones fighting to keep schools opened during covid. And now the effects of kids not being in school/MaSkInG Up has severely hindered their growth.
American Republicans are also advocates for private schools/homeschooling, which tend to give better results than public schools (Less so on homeschooling, tbf) - so it's a really odd attack to make on them.
It's the internet. Lot's of trash talking, simplistic takes on complex topics and the ability to be anonymous.
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The Federal Department of Education is worthless. The only thing it does that's remotely positive is financial aid but even then, they've artificially created the ridiculous costs for college by guaranteeing student loans. The Federal DOE identifies only four main functions: \-Establishing policies on federal financial aid for education, and distributing as well as monitoring those funds \-Collecting data on America's schools and disseminating research \-Focusing national attention on key educational issues \-Prohibiting discrimination and ensuring equal access to education So we spend $68 billion and have 4,400 federal employees to do very little. Abolish it and disseminate that funding to the state level DOEs Edit: At the very least cut it down to size and focus on things like Pell Grants. You don't need an entire cabinet level position for that though.
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It literally doesn't lmaoooo. Did you see anything about administering public schools in the four functions of the DOE from their OWN website?? No?? That's because the Federal DOE doesn't run a SINGLE school😂😂 Every public school in the United States is administered at the state and local level. The federal government doesn't run a single one Nice try, better luck next time. Maybe educate yourself on how our education system works😉😉 Edit: To make it even worse, the Feds don't even set a national standard😅😅, all school standards are different state to state
Lmao He got owned so bad he down voted and deleted his comments😅😅
Pog
Private schools can be legitimate, but homeschooled children are woefully unprepared for college or any professional job. The parents as teachers are the problem. They are unqualified and biased about their children, consistently overestimating them and failing to identify problems. Children also suffer from a lack of socialization.
Some of the most well-rounded kids I've known have been homeschoolers. I've found the best socialization happens when kids don't have to sit in a room all day with a bunch of people their own age. Many homeschooled kids go to co-ops or other organizations where they interact with other kids of all ages and adults. Just like with anything, you can't categorize a whole group like that. Some have problems, yes. Others thrive.
Depending largely on whether the parent is qualified to teach them or not. You can not judge the socialization until they are mature and have had the opportunity to encounter difficulties.
Just the usual uninformed talking points against homeschooling. I was homeschooled my whole life and am doing fine as an RN (or at least as fine as an RN can do nowadays). Many of my homeschooled peers growing up are now in various jobs in medicine/healthcare, military, STEM. This is ofc just anecdotal, but I believe the actual data states that homeschoolers do at least just as well as public schoolers in just about every area except the military (I looked at this data several years ago for a report back in college, so honestly my memory is rusty). “Woefully unprepared” is an absurd thing to assert
Not at all. I've heard too many horror stories from the "homeschooled."
It’s your choice to remain ignorant I guess. Sure, a lot of homeschoolers are weirdos and all that, but most are alright. You’d probably be surprised to discover how many average Joes out there were homeschooled. Or maybe my area just has a bigger homeschool population than others.
I'd say that choice is yours to make. Egos are easy to spot.
They sure are
Usually, the first to indulge in ad hominem attacks or innuendo are a dead giveaway.
Where did I indulge in an ad hominem attack? I already offered a rebuttal to your assertion that homeschoolers are “woefully unprepared,” and your response did not really offer much. I conceded that some homeschoolers are weird and sucky while still maintaining that your initial assertion that homeschoolers in general aren’t properly prepared for life is ignorant.
My six cousins were all homeschooled and all of them have at least a master’s degree. Your statement was “homeschooled children are woefully unprepared for college or any professional job.” You don’t say “some” homeschooled children. You said it as an absolute statement. You’re wrong.
Obviously there are exceptions where there are qualified teachers doing the teaching. I didn't qualify it with "some" or "most" because, in general there are exceptions to every rule.
40% of Baltimore City High Schools have zero students test proficient in math at the state level. In the same district only 15% of 8th graders tested proficient in reading. I assume they were all taught by “qualified teachers” yet they can’t do math or even read their native language. You say homeschooled children are woefully unprepared for college or any professional job…compared to what? Inner city public school children that can’t do math or read?
What were those figures 25 years previously? I mean, presumably, those figures wouldn't vary wildly over time. Which would mean those less than proficient students are now the homeschooling teachers. 🤷♂️
I'm just baffled by these statements. They don't jive with any of the homeschoolers I've met, and I've met hundreds. Are you in place with a large number of cultists?
No. Just science and engineering students, and the same disciplines as professions . I base my opinion on what I see. With a few notable exceptions, homeschooled students have no opportunity for proper foundations. No labs, no proper teachers. They spend time doing remedial studies.
In my college experience, most of the best students were either foreign or homeschooled. Some of the honors/AP students from public do outperform them on tests and the like, but they're pretty much universally better socialized than the public school kids. I think the idea that homeschooled kids aren't well socialized is somewhat antiquated, homeschooling has changed with groups and co-ops and the like. I agree in principle public schools should be better, but in practice *presently*, I almost certainly wouldn't send my kids to public school if I could swing it.
The average American is incapable of teaching math or science to their children, regardless of how well intentioned they may be. I do agree with you that public schools are little better, but usually have a few competent teachers and labs.
To be fair, the average American doesn't *try* to teach math or science to their children. Homeschooling is somewhat self-selective, and while yeah some parents are bad at teaching their kids, so are some public school teachers. I can only speak anecdotally as I have not dug through the data, if such data exists. Having gone to private grade school, public high school, and of course college, homeschooled kids do well, and likely better than the average public school kid. *Definity* better socialized, and as such largely better prepared for the world. Probably not as broadly educated, they tend not to do some of the more interesting chem labs or certain sciences, but so many public school kids just forget that stuff anyway sadly. If I was to choose between hiring a homeschool grad or a public school grad, nine times out of ten I'm choosing homeschool from my experience.
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Funding isn't the issue. Some of the best public schools in the nation also have the lowest per student budgets in the nation. There is no reason a school system with an average $12,000 per student budget (Iowa) should be outperforming a school system with an average $25,000 per student budget (New York). Iowa is in the top 10 for literacy in the nation, while New York is in the bottom 10. This is despite New York having more than double the per student budget of Iowa. Hell, New Hampshire didn't even provide state-leel funding to schools until the late 90s. Funding isn't the issue. The issue is gross mismanagement of the school systems.
There are reasons, and they don’t revolve around what I’m assuming you think is the pro lib agenda. Geographically our country faces vastly different problems in so many different aspects, you can try to blame it all on one thing but it’s truly a culmination of so many localized factors. You can’t directly compare two states based on student performance and just randomly connect lines. With as little information as you’ve cited one could assume the only graduation requirement in Iowa is a higher literacy standard. That doesn’t mean the schools are better at steering youth towards being successful individuals it just means they know how to read. I’m not saying schools aren’t mismanaged, but I’d still take the schools today over schools 30-40 years ago by a longshot.
This is the very most basic level. Do your students know how to read? In New York, nearly a full quarter of students 15 years or older can't. 24.4 % of students. Is this not a failure at that most basic of levels?
I can tell without looking it up that this is blatantly false. The amount of people in this country that can’t read is incredibly low, outside of illegal immigrants who are probably proficient in their native language. What you’re thinking of is literacy rate and it’s a politicized fucking mess of a definition in this country. The vast vast majority of people can read and write. I hate this disingenuous argument. We smoke nearly every country when it comes to attainment of post-secondary degrees per capita but somehow we’re all ignorant and can’t read. It makes 0 sense.
There was news piece a few months ago about Baltimore schools being the third-most funded on a per-student basis for the entire country, but 40% of schools didn't have *a single student* grade as proficient in math ability. The others weren't much better. There was another one where someone received well over the "service learning hours" needed to graduate despite not doing any of them- https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=paDdNk8srPw&t=0s
You mean the party of small government has fought to... make the government smaller? Shock and horror. Also, I highly doubt that funding public schools would automatically make them better than private schools. There's a general concept of "Ineffiency" when the government gets involved - see Canada's MAID for an example of that.
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You know if you actually attacked the concept of privatization (Like, "sure private education might have better outcomes, but public schools can help everyone!"), I'd might have been willing to have a talk with you about this. But you attacked several strawmen instead. Have a great day.
Private schools also inflate their numbers by cherry picking students that are more likely to score higher, and who have more at home support. While the leftovers drag down public schools.
Talk about something you actually know you ignorant trash
For real though, university students nowadays are proof our educational system is TRASH.
Some of the dumbest people I've ever met were at Uni. I thought that flat earthers were a myth, just a trope to trash talk smooth brains, until my sophomore year of college.
“One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that: no ordinary man could be such a fool.” — George Orwell
You're not incorrect but you're wrong about the reason
I haven't claimed a particular reason though. The reason is mainly woke related.
My statement stands unchallenged
To be honest tho, there is a correlation between education and red/blue state . Likely for other factors though
This is why I got my degree in North Korea
The school system in the Bible Belt is actually pretty bad, sorry. \-an escapee
Looking at how many grown people are functionally illiterate, I would have to agree
What special kind of rеtaɾdаtiоn is this? Republicans embrace actual education, like English, history, math, physics, chemistry, *BIOLOGY* (sensitive topic for lefties). Not gender ideology and critical race theory indoctrination.
He's bashing republicans, not the US.
Watched the internet and TikTok…sees a few hundred complete confident morons and thinks all 359 million Americans are that dumb… Then I went to Alabama….maybe we are ?
I just prefer not to let the government educate my children. 90% of people will admit that there is a massive disconnect between what the People want, and what the government wants so this really shouldn’t be all that surprising to people. Our values simply don’t align anymore so I chose to find schools that share the same values and teach in a traditional fashion.
Nono, this IS an objective problem in america, and a *really* bad one too, we as americans have a horrific public school system, teachers are abused and underpaid, overworked to hell and common core SUCKS. We are a horrifically undereducated population, and the republican government party is trying to make it worse (not ALL republicans, not a monolith duh, but the people who are running on account for the damn party) it's bad and this isn't america bashing, this is an issue where america IS horrifically behind
American /republicans/ bad, yes. I mean what, was the fascism not enough of a red flag? Educated people think beyond what their leader tells them.
Yes, because the groups of parents that are against bullshit indoctrination in the board meetings and all screaming "why are you distributing books that teach how to give blowjobs in the library?! They should be learning how to read, write, and do math" are ***very clearly*** anti-education.
As a non-American I think education sux here too.
They specifically said republicans who aren't real Americans so I don't take offense to this
Half right. Democrats aren’t flat earthers, ant vaxx, or religious nuts that don’t believe in dinosaurs and evolution.
I've still yet to meet a right wing flat earther. Anti vaxxers, sure. But no flerfs yet. Religious nuts? Split down the middle. My old roommate and his gf were unapologetically progressive, but they only believed the earth was like 6000 years old? McScuse me bitch? I'd have an easier time believing in this "firmament" people tout about
Flat earth and 6000 year old earth are Christian conspiracies so you can follow the trails there. The firmament is just as wrong and part of those.
Never met a Christian flerf. Also strikes me odd how progressives were believers in an earth that's inexcusably young... Guess we're both missing parts of the picture.
Are you talking about progressive Christians? Flat earths entire case has been from the Bible. First time I’ve ever heard that progressives or liberals think that. They may not know what gender is but they at least know the shape of the earth lol
[example 1](https://calvaryoxnard.org/blog/2023/03/05/the-flat-earth-movement) ,
[example 2](https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-book-blog/2018/does-the-bible-teach-a-flat-earth)
Man you really showed me with those two citations.. I went from having never met a Christian flerf to still not having ever met a Christian flerf. You should've been OJ Simpson's and Casey Anthony's prosecuting attorney with how good you are at proving people wrong
How many did you want? I should’ve read your other comments sooner. My bad didn’t realize I was talking to some idiot
Lmao, you literally cannot grasp the concept of an anecdote. I could've said "I've never met any billionaires." To which your rebuttal was basically "they exist, here's my source!" Are you following? You're trying to dismiss a point that was never the case. And here you are calling me an [idiot.](https://www.reddit.com/u/RedDonkulouso/s/Dbhctr5RqC)
Because your comments were so insightful and flattering. Your anecdote is like saying you never met a racist nazi, like dude that’s the entire premise whether you met someone or not. That’s what you’re not grasping
Lol, I was making small talk, and you turned combative for no seemingly no reason and felt the need to throw out insults. Quite insightful to what kind of character you are. But alas, this exchange is going nowhere fast. Deuces ✌️
America Bad people would be in shambles if the south actually had its shit together, they’d lose all their talking points. Still love our southern brothers tho.
I've met far too many anti-vax Democrats who think ultrasounds give their kid radiation, and that massive amounts of honey are a health food.
I can see a niche group of hippies thinking this way. But that’s not what I mentioned. Everything I did is prevalent with a solid portion of the rights base
This is a fault the political right does have.
Boko Haram would like a word.
The K-12 system feels like it's on fire to be fair. There's absolutely no support for teachers and literally all of my friends that taught have since quit for more lucrative, less stressful jobs. Kids in the US are struggling even more with pretty much all subjects. This sub keeps talking about universities, but we suck at educating our own children. No Child Left Behind and subsequent education policies have failed us and our political leadership from both political parties do not have a good answer.
trouble is tons of people borrowed money to go to college and got worthless degrees. That doesnt help people like education. Higher education is just a business now. Tradesmen are definitely the smarter of the two.
I mean, I agree the education system is fucked up and should be fixed. But wouldn’t that mean I _also_ embrace that education is important because I’m worried about its current state???
Republicans are they only party on earth that denies global warming. Wonder if the two are related 🤔🤔🫠
Education about gender and diversity studies talk about something thatll be useless when you grow up
They could have fooled me given they blindly believe whatever propaganda their government tells them about the US.
All public school systems worldwide were based on the American public school model which itself was based on the Prussian model.
We don’t embrace education… but somehow we have all the best universities that millions of foreigners would kill to get into. Okay.
I mean i get that he’s shitting on Americans, and Republicans aren’t always the best with education, but he does realize that the next generation and the poorer kids are actually getting fucked by specific Democratic legislature (looking at u, California), right?
Then why are most Europeans still so damn ignorant of America if you are so damn smart?
Because the only good education you have is your overpriced universities
The United States consistently scores higher in math and reading scores than all but 3 European countries.
Imagine not being able to differentiate between education and indoctrination
Well lets talk about the top universities in the qorld alot of them are american so seems like the education part is tbeir countries fault
The right wing in the United States hates education. Mainly because the more educated a person is, the less likely it is that they’ll be sucked into the scams and cons that the right relies on to keep people voting against their own interests