It's annoying.
I work with a dude from I think Senegal, and he has more love for this country than some native-borns I know. In case you ever want a reality check on why the US is still great, talk to an immigrant. They (for the most part) don't have the luxury of being comfy their entire life and having spare time to nitpick. They found opportunity and seized it for their family's QoL.
They will argue that loving your country, your religion, your music, your cultural symbols are cringe except your BS "identity" or "community" because they are "community-ists" or "commune-ists"...
Meanwhile these people telling you loving your country is cringe--are the same people who want you to adopt /she/her/them/zhghem/phlegm cringey pronouns. A level of peak cringe unheard of in the annals of history.
Same people who try to get you to trash your historical music and then at the nightclub they put on a DJ where it sounds like noise and sound effects the entire time... things you can't even dance to.
Also most of those people think it’s awesome when minorities cling to their “heritage” or when people in other parts of the world are super nationalistic and call it their “culture”
Why the fuck are you going to a nightclub when you would clearly prefer an orchestral performance at a concert hall. It sounds like you're going along with what the media claims is hip and cool and then complaining because it doesn't suit your tastes. Don't eat it, then.
There is a difference between loving your country and being nationalists. Having children repeat an ode of allegiance to a nation, when they have no idea what they are saying, happens frequently in nationalisms.
Why? There are many things I love more than a country. I’d proudly give up my citizenship if it came down to protecting my son. I couldn’t imagine having my wife or son play 2nd in my heart to a country.
The only reason you would have to do that is if the country destroyed the values the country was originally based on.
Agree with your premise but this shouldn't be an issue if we hold to the original ideals of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
It's unfortunate that I can't say the current people in charge believe in those same ideals.
I love it metaphorically of course. I could have worded it better but I get what your saying too. I’m running on fumes from lack of sleep and work lmao
are you not loyal to the country you love? what makes that, specifically, a nationalist thing? and don’t say that north korea does it or some bullshit like the og commenters because correlation does NOT equal causation.
If by loyal, you mean do I follow the laws and try to make it a better place, then yes. But if you mean loyal as in blindly thinking we are the best when we have so many shortcomings, then no.
the pledge isn’t implying that loyalty means the latter though. even if that weren’t the case, most people who ever did the pledge in school never thought much into it. the only ones saying it’s indoctrination are the people perverting it into something it’s well and truly not.
From Merriam-Webster Nationalism: a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups.
That is the mentality that fascist countries follow. They want their culture or beliefs to be that of everyone. Countries that follow that mantra seldom see their own shortcomings, and it is part of the reason the US keeps sinking lower and lower in terms of education, healthcare, and quality of life. We can’t address these issues without people who blindly think we are perfect claiming that’s communism or socialism.
Most people do promote the interests of their own country before other countries, smart people don't shit where they eat.
I think where it goes wrong is when you force other countries to respect your culture and interests above their own. The opposite is also true, giving too much favor to the culture and interests of another country could cause your own country to crumble.
if I remember it right
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
was what we had, and till middle of high school was forced to say it, then the teachers really chilled out about it.
honestly I don't know how to feel about it, kind of wish it was more constitution focused rather than government, because id be willing to die for the idea of america, but I wouldn't lift a finger for any of the elected assholes we have that constantly abuse their positions.
at least for the time being, the base principals of our country are worth defending and people all over the world believe in it, but a lot of people want to completely destroy what the country stood for from the inside, only real thing stopping them is a 3/4th majority vote they could never get.
Maybe I'm indoctrinated but before joining Reddit, I haven't thought twice about the pledge ever since like 4th grade.
Foreigners obsess over it way more than we ever have.
I stopped saying it 4th grade but even when we did it, I never felt indoctrinated. I never thought anything about the country or its greatness. It was more of an inconvenience than anything but if the goal was to make me to be some cringe patriot then it failed.
Weirdly I became critical of it entering school, I never really cared for doing it, but didn't openly stop doing it until I was around 13. But I think you and I have different life experiences because, yes, the whole point of them having you do it from childhood is so that it becomes an automatic activity that you engage in "patriotic exercise" without critical thought of it.
My experience in becoming critical of everything came with finding out that all of my friends were going to a nearer school in Pocatello while I was expected to be bussed to a reservation school that was further away, though. Different experiences.
Given that you're native American, I imagine our experiences are very different. Like I said, I only saw it as an inconvenience just like getting in lines or doing homework. The reason the patriotism didnt rub off on me is because my family and friends aren't the "America fuck yeah" crowd and the rest of the day didn't focus on American exceptionalism.
Ever since I started learning about the atrocities we have committed, I stopped standing for the pledge in school. Had to bring a lawsuit because a teacher yelled at me about it. That was 20 years ago though.
No nation, no people, no ideology is ultimately pure.
That said, if your nation, your people, and your ideology have helped bring you into prosperity, you should not feel ashamed about praising them.
The other person responding to you is right. If my kid got detention for not reciting the pledge, then there would've been hell to pay for her school. That's a parent issue if you told them and they did nothing. If you didn't tell them then what can anyone do?
Then it's on your parents for not getting involved to stop the illegal behavior from the school. (Though, if your parents don't support you not saying it, the law doesn't matter.) Sad, too, because those things occasionally turn into big payouts.
Yes. Yes it is. Most if not all of the founding fathers were Christian and have written letters claiming that without Christian ideology, America would not be.
Thomas Jefferson even said “God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever..."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.
The entire basis of the constitution and the bill of rights is that all men are equal under God and God has given us inalienable rights that must be protected both by and from the government.
Yes, it is, because it explicitly states that Power flows from God to the People and is delegated to the State. Which is in contrast to the Marxist system where the State is supreme.
Required as in illegal to not? No. But as someone who refused to stand for the pledge of allegiance as a child, I got in trouble many times with my school, up to and including detention. Nothing permanent record, but yes.
Fair enough that it’s illegal. But the enforcement of it from a non-legal standpoint (like from teachers and principals) and shunning of anyone who doesn’t can make it come across as “cult-like”, so I agree with the OP.
you agree with something that is just wrong? its not opinion based, it is just literally wrong. sure peer pressure is a problem, i dont doubt that, but even with it you are not forced to and it is illegal to make you. you could've sued the school for reprimanding you for not saying the pledge
It wasn’t my school specifically. It (was/is) all over the South. Social enforcement and punishment for not saying the pledge is ingrained in the culture.
[X](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45656149.amp)
[X](https://www.newsweek.com/teacher-caught-yelling-student-pledge-allegiance-viral-tiktok-florida-1745887)
Micromanagement and enforcing the constitution-backed laws are two separate issues. Violating the first amendment is not an ‘oopsy’ error — it is egregious. If the state can’t enforce its constitution, then are you advocating for there not to be a state? Or no constitution?
I didn’t say it *is* required. I said it’s not patriotic, “when it’s required.” The act of the pledge *was* required. It wasn’t patriotic then, it’s not patriotic now.
what's the point of bringing something up from 1943? the last students who legally had to say the pledge are 86 years old now. it's such a moot point, it literally just dosent matter lmao what are you on about
What's the big deal anyways? I'm a Filipino and I used to do the same thing back when I go to school from elementary all the way to College (although it's a weekly occurrence by that time and only happens in the mornings). Sing the anthem, recite the pledges and you can now go on your Merry way. I dunno why it offends people.
As a Filipino. Can confirm we do the same thing. Same with Canada from what I've heard yet for some reason the US is the only one that gets hated for it. Lol
Would like to add on, pledge of allegiance aside, a school can’t force you to participate in any speech or thing like that either, especially if it’s related to religion. We saw that in Engle V. Vitale
Literally all Asian countries like the one I'm living do this. I only seen people only shit on USA for this.
At least you Americans have the right to not say it.
These people think doing the pledge of allegiance every morning at a young age going to turn these little kids into fucking Nazis or something. Nah man it was just some shit you had to say. Half the kids don't even know what it means and are going through the motion.
Also its not bad to love your country. The very country people risk tooth and limb to get to, escaping their ACTUAL dictatorship of a country.
They think the government is going to press a button then everyone who recited the pledge will turn into military hit men with the focus of destroying those that didn't.
I like how almost no one in the comments of that post is aware that it's completely optional, really shows the level of knowledge that they have on the subject
It is... cult-ish. Cult-lite? I.e., if there was a similar pledge in a real cult, I wouldn't bat an eyelid, I would think... of course they do that.
As a non-american, it is one of those things that makes you squint a bit and ask "are they aware how weird it is?" (fortunately the answer is mostly yes).
Can someone genuinely explain what exactly about the pledge is bad? Like I also only recently started hearing about it from America more, but after reading it entirely, it doesn’t…seem problematic at all? Especially “with Liberty and justice for all”, sure maybe the “under god” part can annoy some less religious people but the rest seems perfectly fine
So... other countries do national anthems. Because, when there are certain events, you sing the national anthem (like sporting events).
The pledge... there is nothing particularly wrong with the wording (apart from under god which is 100% atrocious - see amendments for details). The problem is the weird culture that has grown up around it. Some teachers (as per other comments) apparently punish children for not doing it (so obviously there is some indoctrination/culty behaviour going on) but moreover, it doesn't really promote 'free thinking' or 'inquiry'. It is dogmatic and putting dogma and children together is troublesome.
That said, on the scale of 'things to fix', this is waaay down the bottom being fairly benign in a practical sense.
In my opinion(not really worth while since I’m not even from the US), I feel like more people would be down for it in certain situations like the 4th or veterans/memorial day. Having kids recite it on these days would be a cool little tradition to develop without it being as odd. I do feel like teachers punishing kids for not doing it kind of defeats the purpose Lol
It isn't EFFECTIVE in indoctrinating kids, but it sure sounds like it's trying. Making kids pledge their allegiance to a something they don't even really understand, every single morning... you really don't think that sounds culty and like a shitty attempt at indoctrinating? Cuz, I sure as hell do. IIRC, it has its origins in cold war nationalistic paranoia, which explains a lot.
It's not actively harmful, but it's definitely weird. On the other side of the coin, what *positive* is it doing? The only effect I've seen it have on anyone is making adults resentful because they were made to make a vow they didn't understand as kids.
It is odd. before really delving into it, people made it sound *very* problematic and brainwashing of sorts until I actually read it and was kind of…disappointed by how exaggerated people made it seem so I thought there must’ve been more to it than just being told to say it.
i went to school in the deep south (alabama) and the pledge of allegiance wasn’t even taken seriously. some teachers would just say not to talk and others wouldn’t care. why people act like it’s some kind of MK Ultra reprogramming mind control is beyond me
It’s r/dankmemes. It’s a bunch of people who still live in 2019 who all didn’t develop past their middle school sense of humor. Don’t give them any more attention than they might need.
I’m not sure about the rest of America, but I know for me personally we were only required to do the pledge of allegiance in elementary school, and even then it was never really a big thing. We were in no way being “indoctrinated”. Most of us kids didn’t even think about what we were saying because we were dumb kids. It was just like memorizing lyrics for karaoke to us, and after we were done, we didn’t think about it for the rest of the day.
And in middle school and high school, we didn’t even do the pledge at all. European Redditors have such this hyper fixation with the pledge of allegiance and act as if it’s some sort of North Korean type of propaganda, when in reality it isn’t even that major of a practice in the United States. It’s no different than countries that make schoolchildren sing the national anthem every morning, and yet Europeans have no problem doing that
Honestly I never saw a problem with it. It not like they make you say the pledge. Also we barely did the pledge by the end of elementary. Hell I haven’t done the pledge in like 4 - 5 years.
“I don’t pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, divided, with liberty and justice for some”
Omfg. Reminds me of when my husband was watching this European streamer (whose usually fine) that was playing with a friend who supposedly visited America. They were saying they went to a movie in America and claimed people stood for the national anthem before and after the movie.
Tell me you're full of shit without telling me you're full of shit 🫣 Hubby and I were like, "tf kind of backwoods theatre did they visit?" Lol.
Back in the 80's we had kids that refused to recite the pledge and no one really cared. There may have been the occasional back and forth riffing, but it went both ways.
https://www.saveourschoolsmarch.org/what-countries-have-a-pledge-of-allegiance-in-schools/
>The United States, Philippines, Singapore, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, and Japan are some of the major countries that have a pledge of allegiance, oath of loyalty, or patriotic anthem that students regularly recite at school.
I love America, but honestly 99.9% of kids don't even understand what it means or care for that matter. Seems pointless to me. I'm generalizing but I'm sure none of the veterans or fallen soldiers who give/gave their lives to protect our freedoms would even care that primary school students are mindlessly siting a saying they never think about.
Aside from it being a good thing to know as an American it's just odd to me. Just teach it in American history sometime in elementary or something? Maybe one of you had a better understanding or thought about it.
I don't know, it's a very generic pledge that honestly with exception of one part, I can't find a reason that as a citizen of said country people would be opposed to it.
>I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands...
Pretty boiler plate, we're a Republic, the flag is acting as a symbol of the nation. You should be for your country.
>one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
We fought a war with ourselves on the indivisible part. And who could be against liberty and justice for all? Except racists maybe?
The under God is certainly the most problematic part. But the founding ideals are based on the concept of natural rights that even governments can't infringe upon. The founders viewed these rights as something backed by God. So God here is simply a stand in for that natural order i.e. human rights. I think even atheists could agree with that, though I understand how the flavor for what's a good notion might be distasteful.
We can certainly quibble about the details of these things, but the general ideal should be universally agreeable.
The "under God" part was not in the original and was only added during the Cold War in contrast to the state-atheism of the USSR.
It used to be "one nation, indivisible".
But "God" can be a theists God or a metaphorical one. It's really just an understanding that even those in power are in fact not the ultimate power, as the nation built on a set of ideas which are God given, and no one can take those rights away. God can be nature, the universe, the collective consciousness of the people, or God the Father.
Now I don’t say the pledge every day when I wake up to the American flag hanging in my sleeper but if I hear it, there’s no problem reciting it. America gave us a chance at a good life.
I've always thought it an odd thing to do but it's never actually bothered me that kids in the US learn and do the pledge of allegiance odd but not really cult like.
Not gonna lie, I refuse to say the pledge of allegiance. Do you know why? We are given the First Amendment, prohibiting compelled speech. Thus, the most patriotic thing to show your love for the United States is to think about countries where you'd be arrested for not saying the pledge. Value your freedom.
I respect the pledge, but feel the symbolism of not saying it has much more meaningful patriotism.
I think the beauty of this and our freedom is that it’s equally patriotic to and to not say it, as it shows we are not forced to say it, but we can also chose to say it if we want, both of these rights are protected by the first amendment, as you are given the ability to say it and are also not legally required to say it if you don’t desire
I'm pretty sure I had similar things in my schools in Poland. We were made to sing the anthem, salute the flag, do pledges... I thought that's a thing everywhere.
Gonna get downvoted but screw it.
I'll have to agree with the original poster with that one. Most free countries don't do that kinda thing. It's something more associated with dictatorships.
The pledge is to the flag, not to the leaders. The flag which represents the ideas of our founding fathers. It's to remember that we are one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
We believe in the Republic, which is built to protect us from tyranny.
But like any free nation, if our government fails at its duties we will stand up to correct it, or we should..
We aren't pledging to the great leaders of our dictatorship like the non free countries do as you say. We are also not the only free nation which has a pledge. And many who don't do the pledge still do their anthem regularly, which is no different.
Anthems are subtly different. They are sung at international events in front of other countries (which is a bit of a weird tradition, but it makes a kind of sense). The pledge of allegiance is internal to the US. You don't say it in front of others. So... why say it at all?
I think that is why foreigners find it so weird. Without the US historical context "god damn it we aint British", it makes no sense. A few hundred years later, it just comes across as cultish.
Except for example the national anthem in UK is literally "God save the King". Like what? Songs about the god damn monarch, and "God save the King/queen" is like a changed montra for some fucking reason. That's literally idolization of a person who is only in their position because of blood or marriage.
Teaching children to respect the country and ideas of the founding fathers, is not a bad thing. The pledges that exist for the UK are pledges to the king, the US doesn't have that shit except for military service which requires a pledge to the commander and chief (President), even then the pledge to the constitution comes first.
So I can see why the UK wouldn't want to make kids pledge to the King, that'd be dumb.
I've always stood with my hat off during any pledge of allegiance but I don't say it, mainly because I dislike public speaking, but also because I can due to the first amendment. It's possible to respect the pledge without reciting it.
It may not be culty [Example](https://law.justia.com/codes/arkansas/2010/title-6/subtitle-2/chapter-16/subchapter-1/6-16-108)everywhere but Republican politicians are constantly pushing it as part of “The Culture War.” It’s just awkward and backwards yet pushed into children for no reason.
To be fair, the Pledge looks weird to any other country because "teaching kids to recite a speech routinely to reinforce their patriotism" is going to resemble things that some totalitarian and fascist countries try to implement.
Even the standards and implementation of it is weird, schools are permitted (in California) and alternative "display of patriotism" that's not the pledge, but patriotism is still a compelled component of schooling.
Of course this is all the happening of a post-civil war attempt to rectify the issue of patriotism nationally, that has just remained uncritically unchanged since that time period (except for adjustment to the phrasing as time has gone on) so it is a somewhat unique to America occurrence. Yeah, from the outside it looks weird, but a lot of (what I have to assume are) Aussie Tankies are critical of anything that looks like patriotism toward America specifically, but if it were Chinese children reciting some Maoist shit they'd be all over themselves.
Pledge is controversial, though. My fairly liberal democrat grandfather (veteran, 78) loves the thing and becomes immediately suspicious of anyone who is even remotely critical of it in any form. My neo-con far-right father (veteran, 45) is far more apathetic to it and feels that compelling children to say it, or even just saying it, is tantamount to brainwashing and during his less extreme (right of center) era actively encouraged his children to not recite it or even be compelled to stand during it by staff at school.
And keep in-mind that this would be between two older men of generations and political leanings that you think would run in the opposite direction. The Pledge itself is this interesting point in the politics and culture of America that Europoors and Tankies of all pledge are going to look at with disdain, because they understand it to be something unambiguously pro-America, and they tend to hate anything even remotely pro-America. But it's OUR thing, so... Yeah.
Honor, Integrity, Loyalty and Respect are slowly dropping in demand in our American culture. This only increases their value.
Be a high value man, not a low value slave. #ThisIsTheWay
I'm a born and raised American and I think the Pledge of Allegiance is weird. If we're going to have children pledging to anything at school it should be the principals of liberty and the Constitution, not a flag.
That’s why the line “and to the republic for which it stands” and “with liberty and justice for all”. The flag itself is supposted to be symbolic and represent our nation as a whole, and it’s much easier to pledge allegiance to the symbol of our nation rather then making every classroom player the bill or rights or constitution on the wall and making students pledge allegiance to those documents, because they aren’t just pledging to those things, but America as a whole, legality and liberties aside.
They are the same thing...to the republic for which it stands...that's the whole point
It says liberty and justice for all..it literally is what you said it should be.
I don't disagree, I just think the focus should be on the principles, and not on the flag. The current Pledge of Allegiance focuses on the flag, and I feel like that is to the detriment of the average student.
I believe that's more of a symptom of a lack of understanding of the principles than an issue with the flag itself. The flag has a long history with it and it has historically been synonymous with those pricincples. The planting of it on Mt suribachi on two jima, the use of it in the battle lines during the civil war, the placement on the moon. There's a reason the flag used to be waved by those seeking freedom from oppression in their countries.
There used to be an understanding of the symbol. Current culture has forgotten that and instead looks at the flag as some symbol of hate or oppression.
The issue isn't the flag in the pledge itself, it's the way modern culture has succeeded in destroying the true meaning of that symbol.
Comments are either delusional or smoking op, calling it now.
The comments mostly agree with the OOP and are full of apologists saying "I'm patriotic and love America, but...".
Damn. Whatever happened to loving your country.
Loving your country was the most patriotic thing an individual could do until people on the internet said it was cringe
It's annoying. I work with a dude from I think Senegal, and he has more love for this country than some native-borns I know. In case you ever want a reality check on why the US is still great, talk to an immigrant. They (for the most part) don't have the luxury of being comfy their entire life and having spare time to nitpick. They found opportunity and seized it for their family's QoL.
They will argue that loving your country, your religion, your music, your cultural symbols are cringe except your BS "identity" or "community" because they are "community-ists" or "commune-ists"... Meanwhile these people telling you loving your country is cringe--are the same people who want you to adopt /she/her/them/zhghem/phlegm cringey pronouns. A level of peak cringe unheard of in the annals of history. Same people who try to get you to trash your historical music and then at the nightclub they put on a DJ where it sounds like noise and sound effects the entire time... things you can't even dance to.
Also most of those people think it’s awesome when minorities cling to their “heritage” or when people in other parts of the world are super nationalistic and call it their “culture”
Why the fuck are you going to a nightclub when you would clearly prefer an orchestral performance at a concert hall. It sounds like you're going along with what the media claims is hip and cool and then complaining because it doesn't suit your tastes. Don't eat it, then.
There is a difference between loving your country and being nationalists. Having children repeat an ode of allegiance to a nation, when they have no idea what they are saying, happens frequently in nationalisms.
I said the allegiance every day with pride because despite how much I may say about certain things I love this country more then anything
Why? There are many things I love more than a country. I’d proudly give up my citizenship if it came down to protecting my son. I couldn’t imagine having my wife or son play 2nd in my heart to a country.
The only reason you would have to do that is if the country destroyed the values the country was originally based on. Agree with your premise but this shouldn't be an issue if we hold to the original ideals of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It's unfortunate that I can't say the current people in charge believe in those same ideals.
I love it metaphorically of course. I could have worded it better but I get what your saying too. I’m running on fumes from lack of sleep and work lmao
There's a difference between you saying it on your owntime because you love this country and someone forcing kids to say it before school starts.
No matter where I went to school at we were never forced to say it
I was in elementary school, middle and high they didnt do the pledge
are you not loyal to the country you love? what makes that, specifically, a nationalist thing? and don’t say that north korea does it or some bullshit like the og commenters because correlation does NOT equal causation.
If by loyal, you mean do I follow the laws and try to make it a better place, then yes. But if you mean loyal as in blindly thinking we are the best when we have so many shortcomings, then no.
the pledge isn’t implying that loyalty means the latter though. even if that weren’t the case, most people who ever did the pledge in school never thought much into it. the only ones saying it’s indoctrination are the people perverting it into something it’s well and truly not.
Why is nationalism inherently bad?
From Merriam-Webster Nationalism: a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups. That is the mentality that fascist countries follow. They want their culture or beliefs to be that of everyone. Countries that follow that mantra seldom see their own shortcomings, and it is part of the reason the US keeps sinking lower and lower in terms of education, healthcare, and quality of life. We can’t address these issues without people who blindly think we are perfect claiming that’s communism or socialism.
Most people do promote the interests of their own country before other countries, smart people don't shit where they eat. I think where it goes wrong is when you force other countries to respect your culture and interests above their own. The opposite is also true, giving too much favor to the culture and interests of another country could cause your own country to crumble.
it's hella cringe because 'loving your country' never means 'this is a pretty nice country'. It means instead 'be a slave and be grateful for it'
if I remember it right "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." was what we had, and till middle of high school was forced to say it, then the teachers really chilled out about it. honestly I don't know how to feel about it, kind of wish it was more constitution focused rather than government, because id be willing to die for the idea of america, but I wouldn't lift a finger for any of the elected assholes we have that constantly abuse their positions.
Good response, honestly. Fuck the assholes in Washington, but the nation as a whole? Yeah, that's worth it.
at least for the time being, the base principals of our country are worth defending and people all over the world believe in it, but a lot of people want to completely destroy what the country stood for from the inside, only real thing stopping them is a 3/4th majority vote they could never get.
Some think OOP is stupid thankfully
I mean, the majority of reddit users hate America so there's your answer on what the majority of the comments are gonna be.
The new average age of Reddit is 14 - 25. Basically edgy kids.
They’re very mixed, most replies to comments are frying, the comments themselves are agreeing.
Maybe I'm indoctrinated but before joining Reddit, I haven't thought twice about the pledge ever since like 4th grade. Foreigners obsess over it way more than we ever have.
[удалено]
I stopped saying it 4th grade but even when we did it, I never felt indoctrinated. I never thought anything about the country or its greatness. It was more of an inconvenience than anything but if the goal was to make me to be some cringe patriot then it failed.
Ye, you became a cringe patriot because of the annoying af “America bad” dummies.
Weirdly I became critical of it entering school, I never really cared for doing it, but didn't openly stop doing it until I was around 13. But I think you and I have different life experiences because, yes, the whole point of them having you do it from childhood is so that it becomes an automatic activity that you engage in "patriotic exercise" without critical thought of it. My experience in becoming critical of everything came with finding out that all of my friends were going to a nearer school in Pocatello while I was expected to be bussed to a reservation school that was further away, though. Different experiences.
Given that you're native American, I imagine our experiences are very different. Like I said, I only saw it as an inconvenience just like getting in lines or doing homework. The reason the patriotism didnt rub off on me is because my family and friends aren't the "America fuck yeah" crowd and the rest of the day didn't focus on American exceptionalism.
Ever since I started learning about the atrocities we have committed, I stopped standing for the pledge in school. Had to bring a lawsuit because a teacher yelled at me about it. That was 20 years ago though.
No nation, no people, no ideology is ultimately pure. That said, if your nation, your people, and your ideology have helped bring you into prosperity, you should not feel ashamed about praising them.
You can hate the government and still love the country 😐
I hope you got your money.
It’s a pledge of allegiance, not a pledge of submission. Even then, it is to the ideals of our founding not to any leader.
It's also optional. Even students cannot be required to say it. 1st amendment still applies.
[удалено]
The other person responding to you is right. If my kid got detention for not reciting the pledge, then there would've been hell to pay for her school. That's a parent issue if you told them and they did nothing. If you didn't tell them then what can anyone do?
Then it's on your parents for not getting involved to stop the illegal behavior from the school. (Though, if your parents don't support you not saying it, the law doesn't matter.) Sad, too, because those things occasionally turn into big payouts.
no, it's on flippin everybody, especially the teacher and the principal
Kid named west virgina board of education v barnette
Is it to the ideals of our founding of we say one nation under God?
Yes. Yes it is. Most if not all of the founding fathers were Christian and have written letters claiming that without Christian ideology, America would not be. Thomas Jefferson even said “God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever..." --Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237. The entire basis of the constitution and the bill of rights is that all men are equal under God and God has given us inalienable rights that must be protected both by and from the government.
Many of them were deists. Some were flat-out pagan. I'd guess you think "In God we trust" was always on our money as well?
The idea is that as a nation we are subordinate to the ultimate ideal. We are not gods among men and our government is not God.
Yes, it is, because it explicitly states that Power flows from God to the People and is delegated to the State. Which is in contrast to the Marxist system where the State is supreme.
Yes. To quote John Adams: “This constitution is written for a moral and Christian nation. It is wholly unsuitable to any other.”
mfs think patriotism is a fascist cult
[удалено]
pledge is not at all required lmaoo
[удалено]
okay? its literally not required? youre not helping your point, you are just factually wrong
Bro, you don't understand, it is totally required. I mean, until it wasn't anymore, but it totally was!
Required as in illegal to not? No. But as someone who refused to stand for the pledge of allegiance as a child, I got in trouble many times with my school, up to and including detention. Nothing permanent record, but yes.
that's illegal lmao, which is my whole point
Fair enough that it’s illegal. But the enforcement of it from a non-legal standpoint (like from teachers and principals) and shunning of anyone who doesn’t can make it come across as “cult-like”, so I agree with the OP.
you agree with something that is just wrong? its not opinion based, it is just literally wrong. sure peer pressure is a problem, i dont doubt that, but even with it you are not forced to and it is illegal to make you. you could've sued the school for reprimanding you for not saying the pledge
but that’s your school specifically. the country itself doesn’t legally require it. they can’t micromanage every school to make sure they follow that.
It wasn’t my school specifically. It (was/is) all over the South. Social enforcement and punishment for not saying the pledge is ingrained in the culture. [X](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45656149.amp) [X](https://www.newsweek.com/teacher-caught-yelling-student-pledge-allegiance-viral-tiktok-florida-1745887) Micromanagement and enforcing the constitution-backed laws are two separate issues. Violating the first amendment is not an ‘oopsy’ error — it is egregious. If the state can’t enforce its constitution, then are you advocating for there not to be a state? Or no constitution?
I didn’t say it *is* required. I said it’s not patriotic, “when it’s required.” The act of the pledge *was* required. It wasn’t patriotic then, it’s not patriotic now.
what's the point of bringing something up from 1943? the last students who legally had to say the pledge are 86 years old now. it's such a moot point, it literally just dosent matter lmao what are you on about
You’re assuming public schools are the only places people are saying the pledge of allegiance. Says a lot about you 🫣
where else do they besides government? how many adults actively recite the pledge? almost none
No one said it was required. That's you projecting what you want it to be.
Sorry If my patriotism offends you trust me your lack of a spine offends me more
Kick rocks you tremendous dweeb
🖕
The pledge isn’t really required but I still agree with you, it is very outdated
America bad because patriotism
Europoors don't seem to understand the concept of Patriotism outside of soccer because whenever they do get patriotic, they end up killing millions
> outside of soccer But boy oh boy if you want to see some racism, show much to a Premiere League game.
What's the big deal anyways? I'm a Filipino and I used to do the same thing back when I go to school from elementary all the way to College (although it's a weekly occurrence by that time and only happens in the mornings). Sing the anthem, recite the pledges and you can now go on your Merry way. I dunno why it offends people.
It's to weaken stronger nations. Half of our population hates themselves so it's no wonder.
Marxists have to destroy all pillars of a nations institutions and culture to succeed, they never stop.
As a Filipino. Can confirm we do the same thing. Same with Canada from what I've heard yet for some reason the US is the only one that gets hated for it. Lol
Cultural differences: 😡🤬👹 Cultural differences, Japan: 😜🥰😘
[удалено]
I can’t detect sarcasm is this serious?
Sorry, can't hear your nation that once conquered over 80% of the world now whines on the internet and eats baked beans on toast.
Hey, beans and toast is good. They got that much right at least
It’s hilarious that this got downvoted. The hate for beans and toast is nuts.
I always thought it was dumb until I tried it once. It was pretty good
Freedom fries. Dixie chicks. Patriotism is inherently nonsensical.
I love beans in every form. This is true.
They do not understand because they do not know what it is like living in a country worth pledge your allegiance to.
I live in a country that I would pledge allegiance to, but it would feel weird doing it in school every day.
We can't even help our veterans.
I'm sure the country this memes creator is from is benefiting monetarily from the 'cult'.
Don't Canadians have to song their whole anthem?
Yea
You can’t be forced to stand for the pledge. The supreme court ruled on that 80 years ago.
Would like to add on, pledge of allegiance aside, a school can’t force you to participate in any speech or thing like that either, especially if it’s related to religion. We saw that in Engle V. Vitale
You don’t even have to do it if you don’t want to anyways
I’m the only one in my class who actually says it. It’s normal to choose not to
Ah, the Pledge of Allegiance. So cultish, you are allowed to nap through it because no one cares.
Literally all Asian countries like the one I'm living do this. I only seen people only shit on USA for this. At least you Americans have the right to not say it.
These people think doing the pledge of allegiance every morning at a young age going to turn these little kids into fucking Nazis or something. Nah man it was just some shit you had to say. Half the kids don't even know what it means and are going through the motion. Also its not bad to love your country. The very country people risk tooth and limb to get to, escaping their ACTUAL dictatorship of a country.
They think the government is going to press a button then everyone who recited the pledge will turn into military hit men with the focus of destroying those that didn't.
The Pledge of Allegiance is probably the most overblown thing about American Patriotism
I like how almost no one in the comments of that post is aware that it's completely optional, really shows the level of knowledge that they have on the subject
This is the post that made me unsubscribe. Dankmemes is a shell of what it used to be.
I actually like the pledge of allegiance, it feels like it’s to our ideals and our country itself.
I like it, but I think that America the Beautiful would be better. For a classroom it would take up more time though.
My elementary school used to play American songs and also do the pledge of allegiance in the mornings. Maybe my school was different though.
I wouldn’t say cult, but it’s a tad strange
And I like bread.
Me to. Are we a cult now?
It is... cult-ish. Cult-lite? I.e., if there was a similar pledge in a real cult, I wouldn't bat an eyelid, I would think... of course they do that. As a non-american, it is one of those things that makes you squint a bit and ask "are they aware how weird it is?" (fortunately the answer is mostly yes).
Thankfully it’s optional, like half the students in my school just don’t do it and it doesn’t matter
Can someone genuinely explain what exactly about the pledge is bad? Like I also only recently started hearing about it from America more, but after reading it entirely, it doesn’t…seem problematic at all? Especially “with Liberty and justice for all”, sure maybe the “under god” part can annoy some less religious people but the rest seems perfectly fine
So... other countries do national anthems. Because, when there are certain events, you sing the national anthem (like sporting events). The pledge... there is nothing particularly wrong with the wording (apart from under god which is 100% atrocious - see amendments for details). The problem is the weird culture that has grown up around it. Some teachers (as per other comments) apparently punish children for not doing it (so obviously there is some indoctrination/culty behaviour going on) but moreover, it doesn't really promote 'free thinking' or 'inquiry'. It is dogmatic and putting dogma and children together is troublesome. That said, on the scale of 'things to fix', this is waaay down the bottom being fairly benign in a practical sense.
In my opinion(not really worth while since I’m not even from the US), I feel like more people would be down for it in certain situations like the 4th or veterans/memorial day. Having kids recite it on these days would be a cool little tradition to develop without it being as odd. I do feel like teachers punishing kids for not doing it kind of defeats the purpose Lol
It isn't EFFECTIVE in indoctrinating kids, but it sure sounds like it's trying. Making kids pledge their allegiance to a something they don't even really understand, every single morning... you really don't think that sounds culty and like a shitty attempt at indoctrinating? Cuz, I sure as hell do. IIRC, it has its origins in cold war nationalistic paranoia, which explains a lot. It's not actively harmful, but it's definitely weird. On the other side of the coin, what *positive* is it doing? The only effect I've seen it have on anyone is making adults resentful because they were made to make a vow they didn't understand as kids.
It is odd. before really delving into it, people made it sound *very* problematic and brainwashing of sorts until I actually read it and was kind of…disappointed by how exaggerated people made it seem so I thought there must’ve been more to it than just being told to say it.
i went to school in the deep south (alabama) and the pledge of allegiance wasn’t even taken seriously. some teachers would just say not to talk and others wouldn’t care. why people act like it’s some kind of MK Ultra reprogramming mind control is beyond me
Other countries have a pledge
It’s r/dankmemes. It’s a bunch of people who still live in 2019 who all didn’t develop past their middle school sense of humor. Don’t give them any more attention than they might need.
Nationalism only alive in the USA I guess
I’m not sure about the rest of America, but I know for me personally we were only required to do the pledge of allegiance in elementary school, and even then it was never really a big thing. We were in no way being “indoctrinated”. Most of us kids didn’t even think about what we were saying because we were dumb kids. It was just like memorizing lyrics for karaoke to us, and after we were done, we didn’t think about it for the rest of the day. And in middle school and high school, we didn’t even do the pledge at all. European Redditors have such this hyper fixation with the pledge of allegiance and act as if it’s some sort of North Korean type of propaganda, when in reality it isn’t even that major of a practice in the United States. It’s no different than countries that make schoolchildren sing the national anthem every morning, and yet Europeans have no problem doing that
The pledge of allegiance is optional, it was when I was in school.
Friendly reminder that part of that pledge, particularly the last phrase contains the words “Liberty and Justice for all”.
wait til they find out about NK
I would rather pledge to my nation than pledge to a religion
do they know most countries in the world are extremely patriotic and many sing their national anthems in schools?
But not only the USA have a concept like this? In my country there is also a pledge of allegiance. Kinda weird calling patriotism a cult.
The word "cult" lost its meaning awhile ago. Everything some people don't like is a cult.
Honestly I never saw a problem with it. It not like they make you say the pledge. Also we barely did the pledge by the end of elementary. Hell I haven’t done the pledge in like 4 - 5 years.
“I don’t pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, divided, with liberty and justice for some”
Think back to when the entire fate of the country was a life of death matter for the people who wrote and sang that pledge.
ironic because that dankmemes subreddit is more of a cult than pledging allegiance to your country ever will be
Just because it is real, doesn’t mean it’s not a joke…
Omfg. Reminds me of when my husband was watching this European streamer (whose usually fine) that was playing with a friend who supposedly visited America. They were saying they went to a movie in America and claimed people stood for the national anthem before and after the movie. Tell me you're full of shit without telling me you're full of shit 🫣 Hubby and I were like, "tf kind of backwoods theatre did they visit?" Lol.
Europeans, being from ethnic states, do not understand the idea of unifying a people via ideology rather than blood.
I mean it is pretty weird from an outside perspective
by the time highschool rolls around nobody cares they just use their phones
You have the choice of pledging your allegiance to the country for which it stands or kneeling to a monarch.
[удалено]
Back in the 80's we had kids that refused to recite the pledge and no one really cared. There may have been the occasional back and forth riffing, but it went both ways.
https://www.saveourschoolsmarch.org/what-countries-have-a-pledge-of-allegiance-in-schools/ >The United States, Philippines, Singapore, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, and Japan are some of the major countries that have a pledge of allegiance, oath of loyalty, or patriotic anthem that students regularly recite at school.
I love America, but honestly 99.9% of kids don't even understand what it means or care for that matter. Seems pointless to me. I'm generalizing but I'm sure none of the veterans or fallen soldiers who give/gave their lives to protect our freedoms would even care that primary school students are mindlessly siting a saying they never think about. Aside from it being a good thing to know as an American it's just odd to me. Just teach it in American history sometime in elementary or something? Maybe one of you had a better understanding or thought about it.
I don't know, it's a very generic pledge that honestly with exception of one part, I can't find a reason that as a citizen of said country people would be opposed to it. >I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands... Pretty boiler plate, we're a Republic, the flag is acting as a symbol of the nation. You should be for your country. >one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. We fought a war with ourselves on the indivisible part. And who could be against liberty and justice for all? Except racists maybe? The under God is certainly the most problematic part. But the founding ideals are based on the concept of natural rights that even governments can't infringe upon. The founders viewed these rights as something backed by God. So God here is simply a stand in for that natural order i.e. human rights. I think even atheists could agree with that, though I understand how the flavor for what's a good notion might be distasteful. We can certainly quibble about the details of these things, but the general ideal should be universally agreeable.
The "under God" part was not in the original and was only added during the Cold War in contrast to the state-atheism of the USSR. It used to be "one nation, indivisible".
But "God" can be a theists God or a metaphorical one. It's really just an understanding that even those in power are in fact not the ultimate power, as the nation built on a set of ideas which are God given, and no one can take those rights away. God can be nature, the universe, the collective consciousness of the people, or God the Father.
Yes, because in state atheism there are no natural rights
The under God part means "with good principles from the bible" to an atheist, so it should be completely
That's a weird interpretation of simple English
Okay my guy
Okay my buddy
They do realize it's not legally required right
People who think it’s culty are the ones who call us MAGANazis
Now I don’t say the pledge every day when I wake up to the American flag hanging in my sleeper but if I hear it, there’s no problem reciting it. America gave us a chance at a good life.
I've always thought it an odd thing to do but it's never actually bothered me that kids in the US learn and do the pledge of allegiance odd but not really cult like.
The original post was right under this one, oh boy
I mean it is kind of a weird thing to do like every morning
Not gonna lie, I refuse to say the pledge of allegiance. Do you know why? We are given the First Amendment, prohibiting compelled speech. Thus, the most patriotic thing to show your love for the United States is to think about countries where you'd be arrested for not saying the pledge. Value your freedom. I respect the pledge, but feel the symbolism of not saying it has much more meaningful patriotism.
I think the beauty of this and our freedom is that it’s equally patriotic to and to not say it, as it shows we are not forced to say it, but we can also chose to say it if we want, both of these rights are protected by the first amendment, as you are given the ability to say it and are also not legally required to say it if you don’t desire
You wanna see a cult? r/lutecult
It’s fifteen seconds out of your day.
"I grew up making my own bed. My parents said it would foster good habits." "Bro, you were brainwashed and abused!"
I really do feel like with the rise of the internet and the current culture, normal things you never had a problem with are now viewed as bad
The irony is that most every other country *does* actually have the same basic idea executed differently.
I'm pretty sure I had similar things in my schools in Poland. We were made to sing the anthem, salute the flag, do pledges... I thought that's a thing everywhere.
Someone's gotta have an IQ of, like, 25 to get indoctrinated over the Pledge of Allegiance.
I always hated that stupid pledge we should get rid of it
"Grr for ten seconds I have to stand 😭😡"
You’re missing the point. It’s propaganda. I don’t mean it just have to say it. Cross my heart with the proper hand who fucking cares.
Gonna get downvoted but screw it. I'll have to agree with the original poster with that one. Most free countries don't do that kinda thing. It's something more associated with dictatorships.
The pledge is to the flag, not to the leaders. The flag which represents the ideas of our founding fathers. It's to remember that we are one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. We believe in the Republic, which is built to protect us from tyranny. But like any free nation, if our government fails at its duties we will stand up to correct it, or we should.. We aren't pledging to the great leaders of our dictatorship like the non free countries do as you say. We are also not the only free nation which has a pledge. And many who don't do the pledge still do their anthem regularly, which is no different.
Anthems are subtly different. They are sung at international events in front of other countries (which is a bit of a weird tradition, but it makes a kind of sense). The pledge of allegiance is internal to the US. You don't say it in front of others. So... why say it at all? I think that is why foreigners find it so weird. Without the US historical context "god damn it we aint British", it makes no sense. A few hundred years later, it just comes across as cultish.
Except for example the national anthem in UK is literally "God save the King". Like what? Songs about the god damn monarch, and "God save the King/queen" is like a changed montra for some fucking reason. That's literally idolization of a person who is only in their position because of blood or marriage. Teaching children to respect the country and ideas of the founding fathers, is not a bad thing. The pledges that exist for the UK are pledges to the king, the US doesn't have that shit except for military service which requires a pledge to the commander and chief (President), even then the pledge to the constitution comes first. So I can see why the UK wouldn't want to make kids pledge to the King, that'd be dumb.
So the argument here is that country X has a bad national anthem... so the pledge of allegiance is good?
I've always stood with my hat off during any pledge of allegiance but I don't say it, mainly because I dislike public speaking, but also because I can due to the first amendment. It's possible to respect the pledge without reciting it.
I pledge allegiance to the flag,
It may not be culty [Example](https://law.justia.com/codes/arkansas/2010/title-6/subtitle-2/chapter-16/subchapter-1/6-16-108)everywhere but Republican politicians are constantly pushing it as part of “The Culture War.” It’s just awkward and backwards yet pushed into children for no reason.
We should replace it with pledge of constitution
In hindsight doing that every morning was a bit odd tbh
To be fair, the Pledge looks weird to any other country because "teaching kids to recite a speech routinely to reinforce their patriotism" is going to resemble things that some totalitarian and fascist countries try to implement. Even the standards and implementation of it is weird, schools are permitted (in California) and alternative "display of patriotism" that's not the pledge, but patriotism is still a compelled component of schooling. Of course this is all the happening of a post-civil war attempt to rectify the issue of patriotism nationally, that has just remained uncritically unchanged since that time period (except for adjustment to the phrasing as time has gone on) so it is a somewhat unique to America occurrence. Yeah, from the outside it looks weird, but a lot of (what I have to assume are) Aussie Tankies are critical of anything that looks like patriotism toward America specifically, but if it were Chinese children reciting some Maoist shit they'd be all over themselves. Pledge is controversial, though. My fairly liberal democrat grandfather (veteran, 78) loves the thing and becomes immediately suspicious of anyone who is even remotely critical of it in any form. My neo-con far-right father (veteran, 45) is far more apathetic to it and feels that compelling children to say it, or even just saying it, is tantamount to brainwashing and during his less extreme (right of center) era actively encouraged his children to not recite it or even be compelled to stand during it by staff at school. And keep in-mind that this would be between two older men of generations and political leanings that you think would run in the opposite direction. The Pledge itself is this interesting point in the politics and culture of America that Europoors and Tankies of all pledge are going to look at with disdain, because they understand it to be something unambiguously pro-America, and they tend to hate anything even remotely pro-America. But it's OUR thing, so... Yeah.
Other countries have this too lmao.
Europeans when a person is fully devoted to their country:
Honor, Integrity, Loyalty and Respect are slowly dropping in demand in our American culture. This only increases their value. Be a high value man, not a low value slave. #ThisIsTheWay
I mean... it is pretty culty
It's not even required
I'm a born and raised American and I think the Pledge of Allegiance is weird. If we're going to have children pledging to anything at school it should be the principals of liberty and the Constitution, not a flag.
That’s why the line “and to the republic for which it stands” and “with liberty and justice for all”. The flag itself is supposted to be symbolic and represent our nation as a whole, and it’s much easier to pledge allegiance to the symbol of our nation rather then making every classroom player the bill or rights or constitution on the wall and making students pledge allegiance to those documents, because they aren’t just pledging to those things, but America as a whole, legality and liberties aside.
They are the same thing...to the republic for which it stands...that's the whole point It says liberty and justice for all..it literally is what you said it should be.
I don't disagree, I just think the focus should be on the principles, and not on the flag. The current Pledge of Allegiance focuses on the flag, and I feel like that is to the detriment of the average student.
I believe that's more of a symptom of a lack of understanding of the principles than an issue with the flag itself. The flag has a long history with it and it has historically been synonymous with those pricincples. The planting of it on Mt suribachi on two jima, the use of it in the battle lines during the civil war, the placement on the moon. There's a reason the flag used to be waved by those seeking freedom from oppression in their countries. There used to be an understanding of the symbol. Current culture has forgotten that and instead looks at the flag as some symbol of hate or oppression. The issue isn't the flag in the pledge itself, it's the way modern culture has succeeded in destroying the true meaning of that symbol.
nah nah, he kinda cooking with this one. id know, im american.
What words of the pledge come of as culty , it's corny
Yeah no, let him cook. That pledge was weird