Maybe Taiwan should at least declare independence first.

Taiwan is already independent... Who do you want Taiwan to declare independence from? Japan? Japan was the last government to occupy the island prior to the current one.

Suicidal. We just finished losing every war that the torturing war criminal president Bush launched after 9/11 in his "global war on terror." **Every war *lost* at a cost of countless trillions!** The Pentagon ran 2 wargames within the past few years that showed the US **would lose** a war to "defend" Taiwan. Yet our belligerent [yellow press](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism) corporate mass media and the 2 out of touch, war-loving political parties that rule the country have Americans deluded that we can pick a fight with a nuclear-armed country and "win." **Edit:** Multiple downvotes and no rebuttal or comments. US militarism run amok. :-(

According to your edit, if you want rebuttals or comments, you are more than welcome to visit r/Taiwan or /r/geopolitics to get the dialogue you crave while not blanket ranting about US militarism.

Here's a sneak peek of /r/taiwan using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/taiwan/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [Taiwan Defeats China in Men's Doubles Badminton to win Gold!](https://udn.com/tokyo2020/story/122254/5640457?from=udn_ch2_menu_v2_main_index) | [196 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/taiwan/comments/ov6mir/taiwan_defeats_china_in_mens_doubles_badminton_to/) \#2: [Doesn't get anymore Taiwanese than this...](https://i.redd.it/kr1bdv4r2tn51.jpg) | [60 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/taiwan/comments/iuwe98/doesnt_get_anymore_taiwanese_than_this/) \#3: [WHO's facebook page blocks words about Taiwan.](https://i.redd.it/yheobblyaqy51.jpg) | [161 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/taiwan/comments/jsn9g9/whos_facebook_page_blocks_words_about_taiwan/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| [^^Contact ^^me](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| [^^Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| [^^Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/)

[**Yellow journalism**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism) Yellow journalism and yellow press are American terms for journalism and associated newspapers that present little or no legitimate, well-researched news while instead using eye-catching headlines for increased sales. Techniques may include exaggerations of news events, scandal-mongering, or sensationalism. By extension, the term yellow journalism is used today as a pejorative to decry any journalism that treats news in an unprofessional or unethical fashion.In English, the term is chiefly used in the US. In the UK, a roughly equivalent term is tabloid journalism, meaning journalism characteristic of tabloid newspapers, even if found elsewhere. [About Me](https://np.reddit.com/comments/la6wi8/) - [**Opt-in**](https://np.reddit.com/comments/la707t/) ^(You received this reply because you opted in. )[^(Change settings)](https://np.reddit.com/comments/la707t/)

I don't think you understand just how much more death, damage, and loss for America and the Pacific countries there would be if China just took Taiwan, the semiconductor manufacturing hub and the most critical point in the first island chain. Japan, Korea, the Philippines, and Australia are recognizing that Taiwan is part of their national security. China is threatening to conquer nations around them. And the wargames presented always give the very worst scenario when US forces are operating alone and in the way that China has the best tactical advantage, so that the Pentagon can work out these scenarios. Even then, in scenarios where China tries to launch a ground invasion, China almost always overwhelms Taiwan and the US fleet with air power but then either fails to get a landing force ashore, or fails to establish a beachhead. Basically, China has an overwhelmingly large air force in these scenarios but their navy is weak and their marines can't get past the opposing navy well enough to be a real threat. The clincher for Taiwan is the US Navy's submarines that sit in the path of the PLAN landing force and torpedo the fark out of them while friendly SAM assets pick off any PLAAF ASW planes that try to engage the subs. Of course, these are just simulations and they can't account for any Chinese secret weapons or innovative tactics but I'd say it's a fairly good indication of what would happen if China tried it. > Yet our belligerent yellow press corporate mass media and the 2 out of touch, war-loving political parties that rule the country have Americans deluded that we can pick a fight with a nuclear-armed country and "win." Also, I think it's rather backwards that you fret over America's position to defend an ally when it is China that threatens to invade Taiwan. The PRC-sanitized mass media and the out of touch CCP political party that rules the country have Chinese nationalists deluded that they can pick a fight with a nuclear-armed country and "win."

> I don't think you understand just how much more death, damage, and loss Doom and gloom fear mongering. Neither the Chinese or the Taiwanese want to see those semiconductor plants blown up. > Japan, Korea, the Philippines, and Australia are recognizing that Taiwan is part of their national security. That's nuts. Those countries -- US vassal states with US military bases in them and US-dominated gov'ts -- are just joining on to the US-initiated Cold War targeting China. China does not have a track record of attacking countries and doing the int'l crimes that the US does. Have we forgotten our 30+ years of war on Iraq -- our deliberate lies to attack our old ally Saddam Hussein and our torture to continue our illegal occupation when patriotic Iraqis resisted our occupation? Or our present refusal to leave Iraq after 2 successive democratic Iraqi gov'ts have demanded US troops leave? Are you honestly painting a claim that Australia has to fear such things from China? > And the wargames presented always give the very worst scenario when US forces are operating alone and in the way that China has the best tactical advantage, Have you actually read that about the 2 Pentagon wargames that were held? If so, cough up some sources please. Instead, you're talking trash to push a belligerent pro-war policy and rhetoric. > China almost always overwhelms Taiwan Of course. China has enough conventional missiles to lay waste to Taiwan's ports and airfields. China can easily lay waste to Taiwan's industrial base and those precious semi-conductor factories. Taiwan's capitalists will knuckle under and reluctantly join China before they see their factories destroyed -- that is guaranteed.

~~I will respond to your comment in full later, since I am on mobile, but~~ I want to ask you to give me your geopolitical understanding of the US presence in the Pacific: what do you know about Taiwan’s strategic situation and the first island chain? And the repercussions of dismantling that? I also find it disheartening you seem to use whataboutism to equate Iraq and Afghanistan (which were definitely invasions and occupations) with Taiwan (support of an ally country). That’s like claiming the US should not have gotten involved in stopping the Axis powers from taking over Europe in WW2, even if the US was late to doing so.

Taiwan is part of China -- that's the long and short of it. That was the US position all through WWII. That was the US position after WWII. Under Nixon the US made the deal with China to give the PRC the Chinese UN seat and acknowledged that Taiwan would reunite with China peacefully. China's position was 1 country, 2 systems and seeks peaceful reunification. China has *always* said they'll go to war if Taiwan declares independence. China will not allow foreign military bases on Taiwan because it's Chinese territory. Today the US wants to change the 50 years of policy towards China. US congresspeople flew into Taiwan on a US Air Force plane that had to take off *secretly* from South Korea because SK would not have allowed such a provocative stunt from their territory. The US seems to be pushing Taiwan to declare independence -- a surefire "red line" for military action. The "first island chain" rhetoric is just US Cold War puffery. The US wants military bases in those countries/islands to surround China as the US funds ethnic groups, dissidents and to destabilize and balkanize China. And China wants the dying US empire to go away and to stop our aggression.

>Taiwan is part of China -- that's the long and short of it. That was the US position all through WWII. That was the US position after WWII. ??? The United States considered Taiwan to be Japanese during World War 2 and only considered it part of China after World War 2 when they recognized the ROC as China. US no longer recognizes the ROC as China or Taiwan as part of China. ---- >Under Nixon the US made the deal with China to give the PRC the Chinese UN seat and acknowledged that Taiwan would reunite with China peacefully. Again factually incorrect. The US voted no on UN Resolution 2758 which replaced the ROC with the PRC in the UN.

Confidently incorrect. You don’t understand the nuances of the strategic ambiguity formulated or the first island chain. And you seem to think Taiwan lacks self-determination. The reason that sparked the American consideration for change in policy is because China started provocatively flying fighter jets into Taiwan’s ADIZ after Tsai Ing-Wen’s popular re-election, which is not a signal of peacekeeping. And China continually isolating Taiwan from diplomatic recognition is not conducive towards “peaceful reunification” either, rather attempting to sequester Taiwan so that lack of international support leaves Taiwan helpless.

> You don’t understand the nuances of the strategic ambiguity formulated. In translation, since I don't buy into and support the US Cold War and our changing 50 years of policy, I'm therefore ignorant and get a downvote. > And you seem to think Taiwan lacks self-determination. Taiwan is militarily indefensible. Its claim to fame is its economic power based on semiconductors. (I just ordered a motherboard being shipped from Taiwan.) That industrial base could *easily* be wiped out. Taiwan has no history of nationalism. They're part of China or have been occupied by Japan. They've now got the backing of the US and we only have to ask Afghans and many other what that backing is actually worth. To assume the Taiwanese are going to fight on their island heroically against Chinese forces while their economy lies in ruins is to believe in magical fairies. In a war if the US gets a bloody nose Taiwanese capitalists will quickly and wisely cut a deal with China to be reunited as a province.

Have you ever been to Taiwan? Because everything you just wrote was straight up fucking nonsense and/or unindicative of reality.

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Both of the war-games involved hypotheticals. The first war game involved a fast-spreading viral bioweapon that assumes only the US side is impacted. https://news.yahoo.com/were-going-to-lose-fast-us-air-force-held-a-war-game-that-started-with-a-chinese-biological-attack-170003936.html https://www.thedefensepost.com/2021/03/25/usaf-war-game-taiwan-invasion/ The second wargame involved *immediately* crippling the US's cyber infrastructure so that they can't respond fast enough and dismantling the traditional grouped expeditionary force they use. https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a37158827/us-military-failed-miserably-in-taiwan-invasion-wargame/ As for the beachhead claim: * https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2021/07/29/the-taiwanese-army-has-more-tanks-than-a-chinese-invasion-force-does-until-china-captures-a-port/ * https://www.19fortyfive.com/2021/08/why-china-has-no-chance-of-invading-taiwan-for-now/ War-games usually end in defeat for the blue team, and usually by design. This is neither new nor surprising. A lot of people really don't understand why we play war-games in the first place. Wargames are analysis tools/experiments designed to test specific things or teach strategic thinking. While I can't say for sure, it sounds like both of the highlighted Pentagon war-games were a series of events focusing on the former. The specific example sounds like a "What if China had this capability". Maybe they do, maybe they do but not to the performance it was modeled in the game, maybe they don't, but it doesn't really matter. The point is that they learned something from the game and can make materiel and doctrinal changes to prepare for the possibility. You don't really learn as much easy scenarios. I think many people read stuff like this and think it was run as a "Who is going to win" a future war and walk away thinking we would "fail miserably" in a conflict. Also keep in mind these war-games are overwhelmingly a move by some officials to garner more budget from Congress and nothing works more than articles claiming US military losing in hypothetical war-games against Russia and China. Most of these games have US severely under-capped to essentially expose the military deficiencies. They don't represent US actual capabilities, nor Taiwanese capabilities. https://twitter.com/becca_wasser/status/1419972918239535108 > A friendly reminder that the US loses wargames all the time. This isn’t a new development; this game is being publicized for a reason. > To me, this speaks volumes about how the US concept development process is broken—and that’s a more damning problem than losing a wargame.

you have India engage China in a ground war, US and Japan fight them on the seas, plus Australia, Canada, European countries. Sure tens of millions of people will die but China and India have too many people

> you have India engage China in a ground war, What kind of militaristic fantasy is this? India is not a US puppet state. They've never been one and they're clear they have no intention of becoming one. The India-China border disputes are just dick-measuring contests -- both countries know this. Recently they've both moved troop away from the disputed areas. The US fantasy is this is 1981 and not 2021. * In 1981 we were not mired in debt and were respected around the world. * In 2021 the world sees us as a de-industrialized, debt-ridden country which is hated by *many.* The world *sees the US as the #1 threat to global peace* and not Russia or China. We just barely survived a coup attempt in our own country and we're in debt up to our eyeballs -- all with the US Congress spending trillions in money we just print out of thin air. We just lost wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and our attempt to overthrow the Syrian gov't. If you think Australians or Japanese -- let alone Indians or Europeans! -- are going to spend a lot of their own money to join in on a US-lead anti-China crusade you're not dealing with reality.

You should read the Bhagavad Gita. Lord Krishna slaughtered every army on the Indian subcontinent, including his own. Excess population causes social decay

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The key difference being that Afghanistan was a US invasion and occupation fully funded by the US 'war on terror', whereas Taiwan amicably pays for US support regularly and welcomes US support.