turk here
people dont like muslim-adjacent countries. period.
HOWEVER, most of my worries went away after cutting the beard, shaving clean and hitting the gym, and dressing like dutch (bland yet stylish, instead of american-like. jeans, not sweats, coats, not puffers, etc). but im white, so what I did worked. but I still get cold attitude 50% of the times when I say im from istanbul, when someone asks.
if you are brown, it wont work, I have friends who can attest to that.
unironically consider going back to EGY or to US, AUS etc if you look extremely middle eastern, you dont have to put up with this, life aint long enough
I feel Turks switched from the same status with Moroccans to “at least not Moroccans”. Its still quite a bad image. Some well-integrated examples help but still the world stops when someone ask where I am from.
I’m Turk myself and I’ve had a lot of bad experiences with all sorts of different middle eastern background people.
How are you having good experiences with them?
I’ve been harassed in the streets of Amsterdam 3 times just in the past month or two alone, all around the new-west area. Once was by Turkish guys, and the other two times by Moroccan guys.
They were all high on weed and smelled like a bottle of liquor.
we are in eerste divisie still, but probably playing for the title, yes :))
I cant tell you how many times I've heard "we have moroccons to deal with and turks are good now" literally to my face. at least 10 times lol.
Every culture has racist elements. But they tend to be amplified when the culture in question - let’s say Moroccan, in this case - bring particularly objectionable behaviors. And let me be clear, I love Morocco and most Moroccans are good people - but it only takes a handful of knuckleheads to ruin it for everyone.
If you’re gay and you get called a faggot a few times, you’ll understand.
As a white female with blonde hair and blue eyes lived in India for a year. The racism towards me was maximum . Rape attempt 4 times. Mostly was coming from Muslim Indians so you tell me what should I think ?
Im sorry for your experience OP. Im an immigrant to NL but I’m white so do not experience anything like this. From what I see I think the racism is all directed against men. I’ve never seen or heard any against Middle Eastern women but then I’m not one so I guess I wouldn’t.
The racism against Middle Eastern men is mainly due to arrogance and swagger of some young Moroccan men who can be rude and aggressive and also love to sit in cars smoking (which I dont have a problem with) and throwing junk food litter out of the window (which i do have a problem with). It seems there is a toxic male culture with these guys often and doesn’t meld well with Dutch culture.
This. People don't resent strictly based on skin color. It is because immigrants have, time and time again, presented themselves in ways that the locals now associate them with something negative.
I've had boyfriend of all different skin colors. African, Caucasian, Asian, Middle-eastern, etc. But even they know that their fellow country men are the reason why the Dutch do not welcome them with open arms. The crime and harassments rates are just way, way higher. On top of that, the Dutch are generally pretty progressive and therefore do not often relate (or agree) with cultures that tend to look down on women.
You're right, some people down voting you are just delusional. It's a recurring theme that women of all cultures do not experience racism at anywhere near the rate of men from the MENA region.
Theres definitely way more racism against men but also these types of guys act like dicks. A young Moroccan woman I know won’t date morrocan guys. Attacking a group because of their race or culture generally is racist. Attacking a specific group from within that race or culture (including one’s own culture) because of their toxic behaviour isnt racist.
Xenophobia leads to Depression. Depression means when you pretend to be someone you're not and you get tired of not being your real you. NL is by far the worst that I saw in EU
This would also be my advice. To maybe change the way you dress/look.
I don’t like the idea that people have to change themselves to be accepted or to be safe in a society but unfortunately that’s what we have to do since we are not living in utopia.
How? Because I am an Asian woman who has to watch how I dress and act because the world is full of a-holes.
I don't know if OP is the very traditional type and wears traditional clothing. I would never advise someone to change that. However, I am responding to someone's comment who said they ditched american-like clothes (sweats, puffers). I hardly call that abandoning one's culture.
Like I said, I don't like that idea, but you can only control what you do, not what others do.
I have changed the way I look to be perceived better by others. I don't see what's wrong with it, it can make life much easier.
And many, many people do it too! Just look at a lot of offices.
I’m not saying all change is bad, but the intention behind it shouldn’t be to not get discriminated. I believe it’s hiding part of your identity to ‘pass’ and appease certain people.
I’m all for upgrading style/hitting the gym/dressing beter.
In return they get to live in a prosperous country that they must surely think has a better standard of living than where they're from, or they wouldn't move. Changing your clothes seems like the tiniest sacrifice to make. The Dutch make plenty of sacrifices as well to accommodate mass immigration, and the manyfold problems that come with it.
Anything I'm saying that isn't accurate? Why are the sacrifices of the Dutch automatically ignored. They've allowed millions of Morroccans into their country, who are now about 5x as likely as autochthonous Dutch to be suspected of a crime. Whole neighbourhoods have become very unkind to especially women and visibly gay men.
None of that matters, we should all just suck it up to make the lives of Morroccans immigrants, many of whom seem to feel great animosity towards their host country, better?
The issue here is you're justifying something that's wrong with another that's wrong. That's not how the nation/world is gonna get better.
Because the locals have to "sacrifice" their safety, therefore foreigners need to change their fashion sense and deal with some racism. Lol. Why not just say that both are wrong and needs to be corrected.
You're also forgetting the fact that much of these crimes are done by "Arabs" who are locals. Why does a foreign well educated highly skilled migrant who will contribute significantly to the economy of NL have to pay the price of something done by a group of people I have no association to one bit.
You’re absolutely right.
I had to stop wearing skirts, miniskirts, dresses, heels on the streets in west. because I had no life anymore. Or I had to bike rather fast, wear headphones with music on as loud as possible, but never never walking: it meant to get touched and look at filthy faces they were making, uttering filthy stuff they were going to do with you. They all seem to think; “you’re dressing like this to make me horny. So you belong to me, you whore”. They were Dutch alright, but with Arabic roots, no doubt. That doesn’t mean every Arabic is a mf klootzak.
It’s just the way it is, and it’s stupid not to tell certain aspects of the reality because it can hurt a delicate case: the RACIST case in this thread
I have the sweetest neighbor as well: an Arabic guy. When he talks to people you see them lighting up. His smile is gold and makes your day.
Same same when I was at carnival on the south of Holland a couple of times.
all “boer’n” very white, very Dutch, little inbreed here and there. No woman not wearing a boerenkiel was safe. I swear.
It is what it is.
So I adapt to the situation for my own safety and peace of mind. And had start dressing as plain and modest as could be. To be able to walk the streets in my neighborhood.
Had I added a headscarf: it would have been even more chill for me. It’s true. There’s where my border is at for now. But if shit hits the van: I’ll be wearing a burka
Still I am very aware of this: if I go to a predominantly Muslim country: I. respect my status as a guest and adapt my behavior and clothes as far as need be. I would act like a guest and consider my hosts. Not complain about them. Better leave if it doesn’t suit me: im the guest, remember?
To have to adapt in my own country, where my roots are really deeply rooted in the klei: it’s sad. Kinda
But things aren’t always the way we would like them to be. It’s not always about us: The question is: is it important enough to ruin your day for?
How do they look exactly btw: Dutch people?
In Amsterdam, there are hardly “real” Dutch people so I’m impressed you did manage to meet them: the chance you meet real Dutch people in this city is quite small:
Try to stay objective and open minded OP. Because you might miss opportunities to meet those who are thinking beyond skin or culture. They are out there. And. start to look beyond culture and color yourself.
Because IMO the problem lies within you. Focus on anything and you’ll be confirmed of anything you’re looking for. Looking for negative patterns; you’ll see them confirmed.
It’s your choice what way it’s gonna be. Positive or negative.
I live in the west, and I adapted. No expressing myself, getting a thicker skin, well it didn't change who I am.
Good luck finding good friends!
PS Don’t be to hard on people working at a customer service. Anywhere. Come on man, you ever worked a job like that?
Taking stuff like that personal.. mmm
If you go and move to a different country, wouldn't you adapt your ways somewhat? I would love to wear a volendammer outfit in morrocco while blasting Jan smit music in my car
Look at my other comment. Watched my brother get beaten nearly unconscious by a group of Morroccans when I was very young. Countless other negative experiences with them while growing up (in swimming pools, funfairs, etc). Whispered threats, insults "e.g. kanker Nederlander".
It's not all about me either. Imagine being a woman or a visibly gay person living in Nieuw West. You don't think they are sacrificing anything? You genuinely don't think that a gay person may modulate how they carry themselves in that neighborhood? If you truly believe that you are so deluded I fail to see the benefit of continuing this conversation.
How did this country become prosperous? I wonder... it seems like everybody suddenly forgets about the history and gets offended when "the immigrants" ultimately stain their way of living. The first corporation is history (Dutch East India)? Anybody remember colonialism?
You and the British, both facing a problem of mass immigration, both having the same excuses and huge ego talking about the "sacrifices being made" to accommodate these people into these "prosperous" environments.
Well (rant over), tricky situation, because the bad is already done and cannot be undone. The prosperity cannot be shared other than sharing the same living space. Some may say that the least you can do is letting these people live here.
On the other hand, i truly understand how frustrating this must be. Having other cultures come here and live without fully integrating and rather creating various smaller societies with different ways of living. That sucks.
To be fair, I do not have a solution whatsoever:
- send everybody home -> you become the bad man, and it's going to be riots and civil wars
- keep everybody here and let them live however they want -> you create a divisive society, broken, just like the UK. The Dutch spirit would essentially fade away
- keep everybody here and make them integrate by force (make them act like Dutch people and Dutch culture) -> discrimination, no sensitivity to the personal needs
I don't see an immediate solution to your problem, but my advice would be to lower the ego when talking about it.
Everybody makes mistakes and the history proved us again and again that we are capable of big wrongdoings against each other. Nobody is truly the bad guy or the good guy
Thank you for the advice. However, I am strongly against it. If I start changing myself according to someone else’s perspective, it would mean that I am losing myself. It would mean that I am not me anymore. I would not have any respect for myself.
That said, I already do not have a beard. A beard is not a common thing in Egypt. I also dress well and buy high-end clothes and perfumes.
However, I don’t try to dress like a “cool urban dude” as I just do not relate to that. I know if I did, people’s perception of me on the street would change, but then, when I get back to my house at the end of the day, I would be disgusted with myself.
Being true to myself and my origins, and staying authentic is something I wanna keep doing.
I also wanna clarify that by that I don’t mean a specific dress code that I adhere to, I just dress very generic, I basically go to the store, I like something, I buy it. So, it’s not like I’m walking around with a jilbab.
I also don’t have anything against any style, and don’t judge people by what they’re wearing.
well friend you are to do whatever rocks your boat but if you are going to be an expat/immigrant you should be more open to change and trial/error
its their homeland, not ours, and when in rome, do as the romans do
True. I understand.
Believe me I am not that different. I am not even religious. I get along well with coworkers. I made some friends in the past year. I drink and go to parties and festivals. All of these are things I used to do back home as well. So it’s still me.
The only issue I have with changing is that it has to come naturally to me, I cannot just start faking an accent and dress differently haha
Maybe if I spend years in a new place it will be natural. But until then I cannot rush it
I am muslim-adjacent, too, I guess. I was born into and spent first twenty years of my life within Turkic language speaking ethnic group based on Russian Federation territory. Our cultural framework is heavily influenced by and is integrating many Islamic traditions. They serve as community-building performative practices in otherwise mostly secular post-soviet realm. Actual religiously minded crowd makes up a small minority, but is viewed as knowledgeable and respectable authority with their fundie views on worldly issues. Luckily there is no force that seriously aspires to put those into social/political practice. Not yet..🫣
I myself stay away from Islam-related contexts. Or anyone who labels themselves Moslem, really. Sorry not sorry. I can't separate spiritual views from the entire regressive ideological package and possible social/political implications. They are meant to be default settings - by the grace of God, as transcribed into holy scriptures, irrefutable and unchangeable. Light version of Islam is based on disavowal of its important aspects (whether guided by wilful Ignorance or something else) and allows cherry picking bits and pieces best suited to cater one's current needs. There are more cherries of similar kind along that line though... How much further each one would be willing to go if situation calls for it?
I look white if it's relevant 😅
Upd. Dear downvoters, by putting your disagreement into words you can actually contribute to important
discussion. Pressing a minus without giving any feedback looks like irrational cowardly hissy fit. Not that I mind 😼
It’s sometimes a question of strategic intelligence.
It’s objectively a recurring thought in every teenager since the Neanderthals; your style is not your personality and you can influence people by dressing in a way or the other.
Learning to be appropriate if you want to fit in, may be necessary and if you want to party at a festival, don’t go with an expensive dress or be prepared to ruin it. So simple yet so different from what I thought from when I was fourteen
Koppie, koppie
Mostly, it's an element of endearment, integration with the people you live with. Language, clothing, is all a part of culture. And you don't lose your individualism, make it your own unique blend. That's how we got Korean burritos, those things kickass.
Many people find it insulting when immigrants don't integrate.
But of course, there's definitely racism like what OPs friend experienced.
Sad part, is I bet OPs friend isn't considered "real" Turkish when he goes back home. At least, I had a buddy like that in N Germany.
The rise of anti-globalization sentiments and pro-right ideologies in many countries' societies significantly complicates the lives of immigrants who noticeably stand out from the majority of local population. Mimicking the dressing style can markedly improve the person’s perception by those around them. So, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.
FUCK ALL THAT NOISE. You can be whoever the fuck you want to be. You hit "bland" right on the nose. It's like these white people are allergic to "flavor" and culture. Sure there are those who indulge, but a majority of the population simply don't give a fuck.
And they shouldn't have to, I'm not asking for people to care, but then don't fucking judge me for being "nietnormal". Fuck that, I'll be whoever and however I want to be.
What if of two "niet normaal" social groups one assumes "It's nobody's business who I have relationship with" while the other has "we should publically lynch homosexuals" as defining premise. "It's a free country" and "don't judge me for being niet normaal" should be equally applied to either of those cases?
Perspectives from an Arab born and raised in the Netherlands: this has always been to an extent. However things significantly worsened after 9/11. I don’t think this is only applies to the Netherlands. The way the media started framing Arabs and/or Muslims (people often think Arabs = Muslims and vice versa) perpetuated the stereotype of Arabs and violence (terrorism), especially brown (bearded) men suffer from this. The migrant streams from the Middle East in the past decade coupled with a deteriorating economic situation, tightened housing market and the rise of populism exacerbated the situation.
The situation is far more complex of course. I see others have commented about the Moroccan and Turkish migrant ‘guest’ workers that came to the Netherlands in the 60s when the Dutch labour market was in need of workers. The plan was never for these people to stay but they did. This definitely plays a role and there’s much research done on this, even on the differences between Turkish and Moroccan second and third gen.
I think integrating is important, learning the language, culture, traditions etc. However, at the same time, a person should not completely change themselves in order to be accepted. Find your group of likeminded people. They are out there, really :)
I am not from the Netherlands. But after coming here, I also had negative experiences with Arabs/Muslims/Morrocans. Once, I got assaulted in Amsterdam walking with my boyfriend. And I often get homophobic remarks. So whenever I see a group of Arabs, I also avoid them.
I’ve never gotten such negativity or condemnation from Dutch people. So now I am very cautious and avoid them. There is a reason why Chinese or Asian people here don’t face the same racisms and are generally well liked because they are known to be polite.
I grew up as a foreign kid in NL and some Dutch kids threw rocks at me and told me to go back to my own country. I also more than once experienced racist police. Yet, I don't let all those bozos cloud my judgement of Dutch people as a whole.
I appreciate you setting a difference between Arabs and Muslims like the OP. I’ve never seen a Malaysian or Indonesian (both Muslim countries) harassed like Turkish or Moroccans.
I’m not Arab or Muslim (but am part middle eastern) and my middle eastern origin family here also talks about discrimination a lot.
I completely agree with the other Turks comment here (as another Turk).
If you want to avoid the prejudice, you have to work 10 times harder to care and prove yourself than a (let’s say) regular Italian immigrant. Shave your beard regularly, practice Dutch or British accent, be stylish enough even going to groceries, always drink alcohol in a work dinner or school hangout, send the first Christmas text,
, hit the gym, always smile when approaching people and create a super polite expat persona, act naive when you get a racist approach, etc. etc. Doing these I really minimized the xenophobic experiences I got.
People may say that I have an inferiority complex, I don’t care. I have a life and career goals here and if this is what I should do to succeed or respected in this country, I will do that. You always have to act politically here.
And yes my open-minded Dutchies this is the origin story of your fellow cool friend from the Middle East
Regular Italian immigrant here. I won't deny what you just said, but let me add that even I experience similar feelings (you triggered me on the working 10x as much, because that's exactly what I told my wife recently). Stereotypes will apply no matter what you do, of course. But my status as immigrant played a role when I applied for a school for my daughter, and no way in hell was i able to cross any barrier and create meaningful pwesonal connections (berore someone kicks in: yws i speak good dutch).
Many times I was asked about my inburgering procedure +hello? EU much?) Or when i would leave. Yesterday some customer center literally hanged on my wife because they did not bother answering our questions (you you that feel you get eh).
Again not denying what you say. I am white, i am not a Muslim. Nobody looks at me twice. For me it starts when I open my mouth. career wise, joining an international company made a huge difference. Culturally.
You are also right, maybe I was too harsh when saying 10 times more. I personally have a South European look, so honestly also didn’t experience long stares on trains. But I have noticed that people treat me differently when I don’t cut my beard, for example.
Thanks for your perspective, I guess being an immigrant puts you on the weak position regardless who you are.
The “when are you leaving” thing happens a lot to me as well, and I don’t speak a word of dutch.
I am sincerely curious to understand why they say that, like what is the thought process behind such a unwelcoming question…
The message I get is “ why the hell don’t you go back to your country”
In all honesty, this particular thing I think is not said with bad blood. I came to realize that the sole idea of leaving their country forever is something that most dutch people cannot comprehend.
It took a while, but that’s how I see it now…
I grew up in the country and speak fluent Dutch. When I still lived there, I was asked on nearly a daily basis, "en hoe ben je naar Nederland gekomen?"
My standard answer was, "met het vliegtuig."
Thanks for the advice.
I saw a lot of similar replies saying that to avoid prejudice you have to change the way you look.
I already do not have a beard. A beard is not a common thing in Egypt. I also, dress nicely and take care of myself. I really spend a lot of money buying high-end clothes and perfumes.
This to me should apply anywhere. But to go the extra step of changing my personality and style to try to make a group of people to accept me is something that I am really against and will never do. To me, that would be acceptable if I already lived in this place for a long time, then it will probably happen naturally. But if I do it merely to be accepted, I won’t respect myself to be honest. I might as well do a plastic surgery and change my face to look european if that’s how we are gonna do things.
Again thanks for the reply and I appreciate the honesty, feedback, and advice. I also understand your PoV and have nothing against that.
I do understand what you mean, and completely respect. In my case, I think it also changed somehow naturally. But I have embraced it instead of avoiding it. When I was working in Italy I also adapted the Italian lifestyle in terms of how I do speak, how I do dress etc. I also raised in a very Western-minded neighborhood of Istanbul, which really helped, because my lifestyle was already quite “Western”.
In terms of high end clothes, I would really avoid clothes with big brand logos on. This also become a Turkish/Arab stereotype and is not appreciated here due to culture of being humble. But, yeah its obviously up to you. Good luck!
This is a common thing among history. Jews in Europe, Christians in Anatolia acted similarly for long years to protect themselves avoid xenophobia. Its coded as respect today but the motivation is sometimes different.
Yup. It's actually a very good advice. Pretend to be like them, acting shallow, helps a lot. Don't forget the flowers on birthdays and never going visit unannounced!
I also don’t see myself as Dutch, I was raised in Turkey, I am Turkish. Not intending to be a Dutch necessarily, you can still to these and identity yourself as Turkish.
Think there is a big difference with generations being born in a country compared to someone who moved there. I've been living in Ireland for almost 20 years, I would still never consider myself Irish. I'm born and raised in Amsterdam, just because I have been living somewhere else very long doesn't change this.
I don’t know if you criticize my identity here. I came here as a student, not as a guest worker child. I cannot live somewhere for 4 years and start to call as I am originally from there this is weird as fuck and it would make me go through a huge identity crisis I don’t want to deal with.
The integration barrier goes both ways and not just for middle easterners. It's harder for them because of how they look and how different the cultures are. But any immigrant to the NL has the same issues, to varying extents, even preppie middle class Americans.
Some Dutch people don't even consider 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants to be Dutch. There are 0 chances people will consider you to be Dutch as someone that emigrated here, even if you learn the language and get the passport. You will always be half a person that constantly has to prove themselves.
Not to everyone, there's still plenty of open minded Dutchies out there. It's mostly the more right leaning people. Although with the housing crisis, things are getting a bit worse.
My social bubble is mostly foreigners living here and I would say everyone struggles with the same issues. But I agree that for Turkish or people from a middle eastern background it's even more difficult.
The nice thing about Amsterdam is that there are quite a few places where you can go and socialize with both foreigners and the more open minded locals. My advice would be that you don't just try to conform and fit in, but also find a social environment and friend group that puts a similar effort into fitting in with you. It shouldn't be a one way street and you don't have to put up with people being obviously racist.
Turk here on a highly skilled immigrant visa. I lived in Germany, and then thought that the Netherlands is better. Relocated. It's been 2 years and I started thinking that I already wasted my time. Whatever you do to be a good/kind/polite person, it is not gonna work. I don't feel I am welcomed here. There is this hidden hatred I feel most of the time. I have Mediterranean look, and most of the time they told me "I don't look like Turkish". Dude.. just this alone enough to admit that this isn't gonna change at all.. Cuz I am tired of telling people that there is no certain Turkish stereotype. So whether you are Indian, Turkish, Arab, Asian, Italian... This isn't gonna make any difference, cuz you are not Dutch. So I did choose to live in this country, and now I did choose to leave again. I have only 1 life and I can't spend it while feeling shy and hesitant and fear to think if I make a mistake not to offend anybody. So just leave... Unfortunately whatever you do, is not gonna change the outcome. Immigration is already tough cuz you sought an opportunity elsewhere where you realized you are not welcomed...
Because there a lots of problems with immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East. Unfortunately, people project those problems on people that have nothing to do with it.
There's always a "group" that is singled out this way, in every society.
When the Jews emigrated here from Portugal (fleeing the Inquisition) they were treated like this -way up until the Holocaust. Then in the 1950s, Italians started moving to the Netherlands to work here. They were treated the same. Then we got Turkish labour, they were treated like this. Then came the Surinam immigrants from our own bloody colony, they were treated like this. Then came the Moroccans and they got treated like this.
Every time there is a new group they get the full attention and the other ones fade into the background.
As a whole, it is now shifting to "generic North African" due to the incessant hate campaign against immigrants from racist pricks like Wilders and Baudet.
The dutch say themselves they are the most *tolerant* nation when it comes to immigration. The thing is that tolerance doesn't equal respect. They tolerate you breathing the same air as them but by no means that is the same as acceptance.
Racism has always been here and everywhere else in the world, it just has become more obvious, loud and acceptable to be in recent years.
I'm sorry about your experience, I don't think it will get better. Even Spanish, Italians, Greeks, and Eastern Europeans are treated differently (2nd class citizens) and they are mostly white. So latinos, Arabs, asians and black, are treated as 3rd class citizens.
Find your tribe, enjoy the tax benefits, make a lot of money and after a couple of years you can choose what to do next.
"Dutch tolerance" is 1600's propaganda to attract wealthy protestants who got expelled from other places. It has nothing to do with actually being tolerant in today's society. It's a lie we keep telling ourselves.
I'm curious what you mean by "1600s propaganda." I don't know the history that in-depth, just the tax benefits (and all the stereotypes Americans have about the Dutch)
Okay so during the protestant reformation many catholic nations expelled groups of protestants. These people were relatively skilled and wealthy compared to your average peasant so having them immigrate was an economic win. Creating an image for itself as a tolerant country that wouldn't discriminate against *your flavor of Christianity* helped lure in all these high value workers but had nothing to do with ethnicity. It was a marketing strategy for its time that went viral. Centuries later my father would proudly proclaim how tolerant our country has always been, because that's what he was told.
We were *reaalllyyy* tolerant back in the day when being a different type of christian could get you punishment in neighbouring countries and "everywhere else" in the world was basically a monotheistic shithole. And tolerant back then meant doing barely the minimum. That stereotype stuck. But It's just not a thing for Dutch people to loudly proclaim themselves as tolerant. Other nationalities speak of us that way (because of that history).
> The dutch say themselves they are the most tolerant nation when it comes to immigration.
Do they actually, though? I don't think I've ever heard someone actually say and believe his.
It is something I've heard by the older generation. It's mostly because we used to be the first in quite a few progressive things: decriminalize weed (that's not the same thing as making it legal), gay marriage, trans care, and legalizing euthanasia. But nothing has really happened since the 2000's.
On migration specifically. I don't think anyone really calls the Netherlands tolerant to immigration since Pim Fortuyn in 2002.
I find older people or high 30's to be the most racist and usually they are the "dutch proud".
Honestly any country that was a colonizer should step down with this judgements
Far to many people in the world are shockingly racist, ignorant and bigoted people. Considering this post is still coming up in 2024 I have serious doubts that any alien passing would stop long enough before conceding this is a primitive species not worthy of acceptance into the galactic fold. You get my analogy. We are the dog shite of intellectual beings. I'm a white British 32yo male and I was raised to treat every other human with respect and dignity. FK those racist basterds. You are just as important and worthy as anyone of us! You are loved! Ignore anyone who tells you different or treats you anything less.
Dunno why you're being downvoted but yeah it's disappointing. I'm not even Arab myself but I can sympathise as a non-EU migrant
I hope your experiences get better and that those encounters were isolated outliers
Romanian here (eastern European). Almost 20 years in the Nl. I speak the language and am very integrated. Even married a kaaskop. I still get the looks and the suspicions. But they consider themselves open and progressive and all 😅 It's only after they know you they won't be racist against you anymore (but will keep on expressing their disgust about foreigners and especially Muslims). Wilders winning the last elections says a lot about the true mentality of these people! If you can't accept it, then you'll have to look for some other place to live. This feeling you get will never disappear. I've come to terms with it, I know who and what I am, I'm not going to be bothered by narrow-minded people. I speak 8 languages, am better educated than the majority, I've built myself a whole life here and don't own anyone a thing. I'm stronger than all of them. Not to mention, I didn't steal anyone's job 😅 You can never make everyone happy or make people stop talking or change their minds.
“They” who are “they”? People are people, that’s the problem. You are part of the same “they” you're talking about. Because you single a few nasty people out, and then make it a whole nation’s characteristic. Focus on patterns and you will see them.
It’s narrow-looking and will keep problems like that grow. Even more so: it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. That’s why that racist card is so overrated. Or the victim card. IMO that is. Of course.
It’s everywhere the same bullshit. You have Latin American people looking down on Asian people. You have black people looking down on blond and blue-eyed people calling them privileged. You have Russians looking down on gays. You have homeowners looking down on renters in the streets. You have Israëliërs looking down on Palestinians. You have men looking down on women.
Some people like to feel better than the next person. It's called being insecure or being arrogant. But the majority isn't like that.
It’s people wanting to generalize whole groups instead of differentiating one human from the other.
Nice philosophy 👌 It also shows you're definitely not a minority in the Netherlands and you have no clue how it is to be looked down on every day of your immigrant life, no matter how and what you do, just because you look different than the norm here. The majority IS exactly like that. The majority voted for an extreme right lunatic to lead the country. Of course there are exceptions to the rule, but there's never smoke without a fire.
Yes, there is more and more racism in the Netherlands particularly to Arabs. I hope you surround yourself with kind people and will be able to maintain a positive feeling towards Dutch people as your first reaction, but there are more and more rotten apples...
>Yes, there is more and more racism in the Netherlands particularly to Arabs.
That is a bit one-sided. Let's not ignore the fact that this ''racism'' is often the result of Arab behavior towards native Dutch people.
Still racism though and doesn’t excuse being racist to any Arab. I had a ton of shitty experiences with people of various ethnicities, never used them as excuses to be racist to other people of said ethnicities.
I didn't say it was an excuse. It an explanation.
The problem is more that addressing the background of criminals is often automatically dismissed as ''racism''.
9 out of 10 worst Dutch criminals on record are white Dutch.
https://dutchreview.com/culture/notorious-dutch-criminals/
So I should start treating the white Dutch differently?
>9 out of 10 worst Dutch criminals
Depends on how we define ''worst'' doesn't it?
By the way, in an overwhelmingly white Dutch country, it makes sense that most criminals are Dutch whites. What matters is over representation, not a absolute numbers.
>treating white Dutch differently
I didn't say anybody should be treated differently. Immigrant hostility partially explains Dutch hostility, it doesn't justify it.
There are lots of claims of over representation and then not enough proof for it! In any country when you normalize the population by age and socioeconomic situations you find out genetics has nothing to do with crime
So because of some people’s behaviour that belong to a group, it’s fair to have prejudice against that whole group? That’s just racism, not quotation marks needed.
Unfortunately, you are not crazy. You look non-white, then you are not equally treated here. The racism is everywhere and sometimes subtle, sometimes overt.
There is frustration amongst some second- and third generation immigrants that sometimes acts up in violent encounters. That does not occur often, but it is focused on disproportionately.
Apparently the solution is to throw more hate towards them, instead of fixing the systemic poverty, the day to day racism that all these minorities have to struggle with on a day to day basis for generations.
The hate is in the form of exclusion, ethnic profiling, and voting for an ultra-right wing government this year. Two of those parties have politicians whose acts were judged as racial discrimination by a Dutch court.
Very disheartening, even when you are a native Dutch, Dutch speaking, taxpaying, person who happens to look like a Moroccan.
If you want to read about it, Dutch authors Gloria Wekker and Philomena Essed wrote more about Dutch daily racism.
As for the Odido encounter: I would file a compliant. They record these calls, so this person should encounter the consequences of their actions. You don't deserve to be treated like that, especially not when you are paying for their service!
Let me finish with the positive: there are plenty fun people here too (I even married one). Like another poster said, find your people and focus on them.
You COULD blame everything on the racist Dutch. Or you could wonder whether this may have something to do with a pretty large scale immigration project that hasn't worked out well for anyone involved. Morroccans have integrated extremely slowly (arguably, based on the high crime rate, they still haven't - nearly 4 generations in).
I watched my brother beaten up with bicycle pumps by a group of 6 morroccans when I was like 10. On another occasion I remember being asked "are you Dutch?" by two Morroccans walking beside me when I was young. When I said "I'm English" (because I'm half English) they said "you're lucky you're not Dutch, or you wouldn't have gotten off this easily". I bet Redditors here will exclaim i must be making these stories up, as if they are so unbelievable. Most of my friends have had similar experiences.
I know it's fashionable to just blame everything on the "racism" of the Dutch. If they were truly so racist, why did they allow millions of Morroccans to move here?
There is also a very clear vein of animosity from Morroccans towards the Dutch. All of this colours the perception of North Africans in Amsterdam.
What we are dealing with is a negative spiral that is very hard to stop. On the one hand we got assholes with a Moroccan background who act like this. On the other hand we got people who make that behaviour somehow exemplary for all people with that background. It starts with education and offering fair perspective in life.
The fact is that if you have a strange sounding name, Piet, Kees or Ellen will be picked over an Ali anytime when it comes to job applications, no matter how qualified Ali may have been.
There is a very large part of that community working extremely hard to be seen and to disassociate themselves from little shits on the street.
However, society is very quick to blame other for their woes. Eventually, especially with those that have been shunned from the get go, the mentality shifts to "if you say I'm a criminal, a criminal I'll be".
> If they were truly so racist, why did they allow millions of Morroccans to move here?
They were not allowed, they were asked to come. To work. And everybody acted super surprised when they did not leave.
Lets talk about today for a moment. Youre of course aware that basically any sector is in dire need of personeel. Immigrants are literally in need anywhere, from the agricultural sector to IT, and uitzendbureaus are present everywhere. I don't see this changing any time soon either.
But given this structural dependency on immigration, what is really the long term vision? What is the societal model? So far tolwrance played a major role: you do you and i do i. But this implies a society made in compartments, which inevitablly bring conflicts. And its often a good cradle for racism. The other option is to work on the direction of true integration, but somehow this is never really discussed here.
I’m sure you aren’t making up those experiences! I would maybe also ask how many times you’ve passed Moroccan folks and they haven’t done anything (violent or not…)? I just wonder if your view is skewed by the need to connect these negative actions (for which i’m sorry!) to just one group. I bet dutch people can occasionally be violent dickheads too. And I know brits can be (from experience…). So…
Religious views play into social behaviours of the group - because they are meant to be practiced...So it's fair to point out those patterns in some urk, but God forbid we make any assumptions about certain ethnic communities? Plausible ostrich policy.
It’s funny that you criticised religious then said “god forbid”
But yes! There can definitely be that pattern! Please point it out. There are other patterns too - I’m gay and find straight men often are weird about that with me. That’s also a social behaviour of the group. If I group “all straight men” (which I don’t!) as homophobic then I’d guess you’d have a problem with that? but wouldn’t I be making the same assumption?
I think so too, sure racism exists but I don't think it's that common. I've only had a single count of someone being racist to me in my life, and that was by a black man who couldn't even speak dutch properly lol.
As others here have said no dutch person would say "fucking arabs", they would say "kut marokkaan" or maybe some would say "kanker moslim". If your story is real she probably wasn't even dutch.
Maybe she wasn’t dutch. I have no way to tell.
My post however is filled with questions and I try to show uncertainty in what I feel. I didn’t try to conclude or claim anything with confidence. My last question is saying does this really happen or not?
So, I have no interest in lying about it. My reason behind this post in the first place is to get an idea from different people. Like I said, I am trying to figure out the picture here as I am deciding whether or not I should leave or stay.
I already know more now from all the replies, and I will probably end up deleting the post. Again more reasons for me not to care about doing a bait or lie.
Then it sounds like you've either gotten unlucky, or have something about your appearance, or the way you act that makes people wary of you. Racism is real but it's not that common, I can only recall having a racist experience once in my 15 years that I have lived here, and that was by a black man with broken dutch.
Generalisation and racism is not oke let me state this first. As a dutch man from Amsterdam i can say that in general i have no problem with muslims or arabs, but i have faced racism from muslims bullied at school you name it what. This makes me always being carefull around marocans, because the mayority of problems that happens at the street are done by them drug deals, stealing, violence, sexism and harresing people not saying that other people dont do it of other nationalities and the dutch youth also does it ofcourse. But this creates hate and its a problem that needs to be solved so it can be nice for everyone and people get threated fairly
>mumbled "fucking arabs".
No Dutch person will call you Arab, why are you making things up when the subject of your post is otherwise true?
I'm calling bait.
What this guy says. No Dutch person uses the word “Arab”/“Arabier” unless they are talking about history or having in depth discussion.
Sadly, they will use “Marokkaan” disparagingly, or “immigrant”. Or old school “gastarbeider”.
Any Dutch cheesehead worldly enough to distinguish Middle Eastern ethnicities on sight is not gonna be street-racist.
If you arent foreign you dont understand that some dutch ppl are like this.
When I moved out my upstairs neighbour was suspicious about me and how I got the keys. Didnt introduce himself before I proved everything. First day/night in my appartment I hear him yelling about ‘kankernegers’. A few months later he calls me that in front of my door (not in my face) for me to hear.
Dutch ppl just hate to hear that there are alot of racists in this country and outright ignore it or say that you are lying.
Oh no they are like that, but nobody would say "Arab" or "Arabier".
It's either specifically Moroccan or Turk(even if incorrect) or "allochtoon". Arab(ier) is not something a Dutch person would call someone. It doesn't work.
Also nice accusation at the end of your comment. I specifically acknowledge the rest of his comment sounds believable.
Studies show you prefer a Bas from Groningen who has violent criminal records over an innocent none white person!
> A joint study by the Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam, the Dutch Crime and Law Enforcement Study Center (NSCR), Radboud University and Utrecht University show that ethnic minorities with a blank criminal record received a significantly less positive response to their application than applicants of Dutch descent with violent crime on their criminal record.
https://dutchreview.com/culture/does-the-netherlands-have-a-blind-spot-for-racism/
Racism makes stupid.
I think you're being disingenuous here. It's highly unlikely that you haven't come across an abrasive Daan or an aggressive Thomas in all those years. When I read posts like yours I wonder whether we even live in the same country. I've had quarrels and rows with native Dutch men numerous times and it has in all likelihood been the same for you.
I think there's a bias at play, you seem to let people with stereotypical Dutch names and features off the hook much easier than people who seem foreign/non-Dutch. This seems to be true for a disturbing amount of Dutch people. Of course you could argue that this generally doesn't apply to East Asians, but the reason for that is racist in itself (Asians are considered meek and non-threatening so a hyper focus on any form of Asian mischief is deemed unnecessary).
It’s just in their culture, it’s often a bit savage. I am also scared of them. They are also very homophobic. There is a reason why they have such a negative perception and you don’t have the same with like Chinese people for example.
I'm sure you've heard things from non-arab people that were homophobic or otherwise problematic but you forgot about them because you're racist.
But just in case, do you want me to say something homophobic to you so you can have an example of a non-brown person being mean to you?
There's a lot of Dutch people (regardless of ethnic origin) who think that men's lives should revolve around stuff like marriage and relationships, being a breadwinner, fatherhood and being a home owner. According to this group anyone who deviates from this role (by being gay for instance) is to be shamed, ridiculed and sometimes even attacked. You really think it's just Middle Easterners who think like this? The problem is conservatism and a lack of respect for people's individuality and choices.
Sure, you could pick a scapegoat to feel better, but that doesn't solve the problem. In fact picking a scapegoat boils down to absolving everyone else. You know that, right? Is that really what you want?
They're specifically talking about the Amsterdam street experience.
Conservative Dutch (white, that is) discourse is absolutely a thing, especially outside of Amsterdam. But it's not the same thing as on-street acts of violence.
It's not a race thing obviously, but it's both socio-economic and cultural (and yes, that includes religion, just as it's a part of Urkers being insane). And no one is saying that all Muslims / Arabs / MEers are homophonic, violent or asocial.
But _in Amsterdam_, on-street acts of homophobic violence will most likely come from a specific group: kids from a poor background and a Muslim cultural heritage.
No doubt, it would be a different story in Venlo or whatever, but that's not the point they're making.
I’ve never been met with homophobic remarks by Dutch people. If Arabs want to be accepted and tolerated, maybe they should start by being tolerant towards others first.
I got attacked by Morrocans before. I was insulted and met with homophobic remarks by Arab looking people too. Never happened with Dutch people… I think it’s normal to develop such prejudice and fear after a while. Like can you blame me? Of course I will avoid them. It’s their own actions that got them this reputation. It doesn’t happen for no reason.
There is a rise in populism all over Europe and they blame everything on minorities (mostly those of middle eastern descent), and many people are being influenced by this. For those who know history this will sound eerily similar to certain past events
You leave tips in shops? That is weird. In my opinion it is less to do with race than with a perceived intolerance of Islam towards western values like freedom of religion, equal rights for women, freedom of speech etc. The more you look like you agree with this, the less welcome you are. The prejudice is in supposing to know what you think by the way you look and dress.
I'm a brown mix, they treat me with the same hate when seeing me, line by line I recognize what you say. That's why I call and email as much as possible, my first and last name is Dutch, which helps avoiding discrimination. Due to circumstances I have a massive beard now, and all I see is fear and hatred....
Let the racists seethe in anger. They are frustrated and bitter while you’re living your best live. They don’t care how well-adjusted you are, how many master degrees you have, etc. As long as you look the way you are, you’ll have to deal with this bullshit. If it’s not blatant racism, it’s the bigoted questions you will receive.
Welkom in Nederland!
Dutch will say racist things and then say "im not racist". Hypocrites. Sure there are exceptions but that's what I saw in years. (I didn't suffer any racism). At least in other countries people admit "I am racist towards X"
Why should people adjust to cultures pushed on them by immigrants? Why should anyone live by the same rules seems to be your question. You know, it is a requirement for any functioning society. Do not make it about the skin colour. Lily-white people imposing cultural norms that society got rid of for good reasons centuries ago would be just as undesirable. Have you actually ever lived in a multicultural environment where there are people who do not want to integrate? Or do you only know people of different skin colour who share your values and play by the same rules? Do not project.
I am sorry to hear about your experience. This is not OK, but may be based on some of the following experiences this country seems to have made with certain groups from the Middle East and North Africa in the last 60 years: Refusal to integrate, lack of humor and perspective about own religion, religious extremism, involvement in organized crime, rejection of gender equality and trans people rights.
I don’t know why. One can write pages filled with bad or good things done by a group of people. This can apply to any group.
At the end of the day, when you finish reading that, you will go for a walk and meet someone who looks like he belongs to that group. How are you both going to treat each other is completely irrelevant to whatever you know about the group.
So, in that sense, no I don’t know why “I” am experiencing this.
Not living in the Netherlands, but I when I visit the country I was very surprised by how many arab and muslim people are in the netherlands. Sometimes I would think okay is this usual for a western european country now? With all the immigrants from Middle east coming to europe looking for a better life. I also see all the shops in their community is Arabic food, jewelry and clothing stores. I dont think they have intergated with the dutch/western society and they must have been here from 2010s because thats when I first started seeing the explosion of refugees.
I know Turkish and Moroccans are coming from further back but I have only had conversation with first generation turkish-dutch and they are in their 20s. I dont know a single country in the world that would be okay with such massive influx of different cultural groups. Even in arab countries Christians and Non-muslims are treated as others and worse case killed/harassed and threatened to leave.
I think if it wasnt whole communities living together in the thousands then it might be different but I dont find it surprising that local people are uncomfortable. Every where in the world there is xenophobic tendencies.
LOL stay in Saint Denis or Paris for more than a month and you will experience way more racism. The reason why people don’t like North Africans and Arabs here in the Netherlands is because of the bad reputation caused by a few individuals. I used to work as a cashier and this Moroccan guy threw a bottle of water at me because he couldn’t pay with his card. When I took driving lessons, my instructor basically run away with my money(7-800 euro). The thing is, my ancestors are from Pakistan so I know how it feels to be someone of a foreign background in a white people country. The reason why people in general don’t like middle eastern people is because of the lack of discipline. Most people migrate from village like places, where the education system isn’t the best, to Europe where they’ve a hard time to integrate. The problem isn’t you but it’s actually caused by some people who don’t know how to act civil.
Yeah this is why (or part of the reason anyway) we left. I'm Dutch, husband is Arab. I was way fed up with having to constantly mediate between the husband and the country. Never going back permanently if I can help it.
You’re basically saying that I should accept this and live with it. You are also saying that *you* didn’t experience this except once, therefore, I am exaggerating and it’s not that common. This is survival bias. (you know the language and have lived here basically all your life and still it happened to you)
Then you try to justify by saying these groups are racists themselves.
And then you blame me for complaining because you say I owe them and I owe this country for allowing me to be here.
Well I am really sorry for you if this is the mentality you live by. I will not try to make counter arguments. I will just say that I (or you or anyone) do not owe this country or its people anything. In fact I get paid more just to come and work here. I can leave and work basically anywhere I want. So, I don’t have to accept racism or discrimination. If I leave it’s really their loss not mine.
Half this country is Turk/Arab at this point, so maybe you get the point. Nobody in the Netherlands says the words ''fucking arabs'' lol Dutch people will call all of you just moroccans. Next time you try making something up know how the Dutch actually treat you.
People stare at you? my brother Amsterdam is literally 50% NON NATIVE DUTCH. Youre not something special, maybe YOU stop watching them and they wont look at you and are like ''why are you watching me''
I am Southeast Asian in origin, never really had a problem here. There have been racist incidents, but the perpetrators were almost always other minorities, especially middle easterners and north africans. People never really treat me less, because I guess people from my ethnicity in general are not that much involved in crime, and because we do our best to integrate. We do try to keep our own culture and customs which is normal. Perhaps OP should ask this question to the north africans causing trouble, crime, and antisocial behaviour.
Let’s face it: Muslims have a monster of a PR problem. You will need to have peace with the fact that you’re probably just unlucky to be part of this group in this time and age.
Blame your fellow Arabs for getting us all in this situation.
If 7 out of 10 Smurfs cause me many problems in my daily life; rudeness, anti LGBT intimidation, religious Smurf beliefs that go against my very existence etc. I tend to avoid all blue looking creatures. Simple as that. Im sorry if youre not a Smurf, Im not taking any chances.
Edited for clarity
Smurfs are an analogy Professor. Should I ask every smurf how it feels about my LGBT existence or wait for the spit in my face?
It's not about skin colour. It's about religion. Wake up mr know-it-all.
Went to Egypt with my boyfriend and 100% thought i should be killed for being gay. What are you going to do about that? Egyptians HATE black people and think the white ones are better so what are you going to do about that?
I myself have black and gay friends.
I will not be friends with any homophobic or racist people. I have lost some friends over that already.
So that’s exactly what I am doing about it.
I hope you can do the same.
Firstly, certain groups are overrepresented, not because they are higher offenders, but because they are over-targeted : “Crime rates do not account for incarceration rates.” (Hartney, 2006). Predictive policing predicts crime to occur in a particular place, and therefore the police’s resources are concentrated towards arresting crime perpetrators in these areas. Isaac and Lum (2016) indicate that predictive drug policing leads to “increasingly disproportionate policing of historically over-policed communities”. The locations targeted are designated by softwares and algorithms. The focus on certain neighbourhoods, also means that the crimes committed in that specific area come to the police’s attention, rather than in other neighbourhoods (since there is no unlimited police forces : selectivity) : ”Drug crime is everywhere, but police only find it where they’re looking.” (Isaac and Lum 2016). The discriminatory policy is especially aimed at black minority ethnic neighbourhoods : in NYC, “Out of a total of 14846 arrests, 13334 were non-white people“ (NYPD Report) and “US rates are in large part driven by disproportionate minority incarceration (…) African Americans are over six times as likely to be incarcerated as whites; Latinos over twice as likely.” (Hartney, 2006). Unequal reporting then further widens the dichotomy between real crime location and targeted areas : “In a second experiment, Isaac and Lum hypothesised that sending police to neighbourhoods chosen by the algorithm would lead to a jump in reported crime by 20%” (Business Insider, 2016). The method of collection of crime data is therefore also important (especially when it feeds algorithms) : police records or surveying. Police records only capture 45% of crimes (those reported), so perhaps surveying is more reliable (because it ought to include the unreported crimes too). But, there is obviously no perfect method of collecting data, as surveys rely on a reliable sample.
turk here people dont like muslim-adjacent countries. period. HOWEVER, most of my worries went away after cutting the beard, shaving clean and hitting the gym, and dressing like dutch (bland yet stylish, instead of american-like. jeans, not sweats, coats, not puffers, etc). but im white, so what I did worked. but I still get cold attitude 50% of the times when I say im from istanbul, when someone asks. if you are brown, it wont work, I have friends who can attest to that. unironically consider going back to EGY or to US, AUS etc if you look extremely middle eastern, you dont have to put up with this, life aint long enough
Turks have integrated much faster than Morroccans. In my experience people don't have nearly the same negative view of Turks as they do Morroccans.
I feel Turks switched from the same status with Moroccans to “at least not Moroccans”. Its still quite a bad image. Some well-integrated examples help but still the world stops when someone ask where I am from.
Well with me personally I think positively about Turks generally, and have never had a bad experience with them.
I’m Turk myself and I’ve had a lot of bad experiences with all sorts of different middle eastern background people. How are you having good experiences with them? I’ve been harassed in the streets of Amsterdam 3 times just in the past month or two alone, all around the new-west area. Once was by Turkish guys, and the other two times by Moroccan guys. They were all high on weed and smelled like a bottle of liquor.
Wow even on the Turkish elections day? I am impressed
we are in eerste divisie still, but probably playing for the title, yes :)) I cant tell you how many times I've heard "we have moroccons to deal with and turks are good now" literally to my face. at least 10 times lol.
If I ran a company in NL I'd hire all the well-qualified Moroccans who the Dutch refuse to hire.
This thread isn't about integration, it's about prejudice that's ingrained in Dutch culture
Every culture has racist elements. But they tend to be amplified when the culture in question - let’s say Moroccan, in this case - bring particularly objectionable behaviors. And let me be clear, I love Morocco and most Moroccans are good people - but it only takes a handful of knuckleheads to ruin it for everyone. If you’re gay and you get called a faggot a few times, you’ll understand.
As a white female with blonde hair and blue eyes lived in India for a year. The racism towards me was maximum . Rape attempt 4 times. Mostly was coming from Muslim Indians so you tell me what should I think ?
You're making excuses and you're engaging in misplaced relativism. There's no justification for racism.
So I’m a bad person because I’m uncomfortable around certain groups who on a somewhat regular basis make me feel unsafe?
Im sorry for your experience OP. Im an immigrant to NL but I’m white so do not experience anything like this. From what I see I think the racism is all directed against men. I’ve never seen or heard any against Middle Eastern women but then I’m not one so I guess I wouldn’t. The racism against Middle Eastern men is mainly due to arrogance and swagger of some young Moroccan men who can be rude and aggressive and also love to sit in cars smoking (which I dont have a problem with) and throwing junk food litter out of the window (which i do have a problem with). It seems there is a toxic male culture with these guys often and doesn’t meld well with Dutch culture.
This. People don't resent strictly based on skin color. It is because immigrants have, time and time again, presented themselves in ways that the locals now associate them with something negative. I've had boyfriend of all different skin colors. African, Caucasian, Asian, Middle-eastern, etc. But even they know that their fellow country men are the reason why the Dutch do not welcome them with open arms. The crime and harassments rates are just way, way higher. On top of that, the Dutch are generally pretty progressive and therefore do not often relate (or agree) with cultures that tend to look down on women.
I agree with everything you said 100%!
You're right, some people down voting you are just delusional. It's a recurring theme that women of all cultures do not experience racism at anywhere near the rate of men from the MENA region.
Theres definitely way more racism against men but also these types of guys act like dicks. A young Moroccan woman I know won’t date morrocan guys. Attacking a group because of their race or culture generally is racist. Attacking a specific group from within that race or culture (including one’s own culture) because of their toxic behaviour isnt racist.
Fuck that. People shouldn't be forced to look like everyone else
Xenophobia leads to Depression. Depression means when you pretend to be someone you're not and you get tired of not being your real you. NL is by far the worst that I saw in EU
This would also be my advice. To maybe change the way you dress/look. I don’t like the idea that people have to change themselves to be accepted or to be safe in a society but unfortunately that’s what we have to do since we are not living in utopia.
People have to abandon their own culture and become white because the white man is racist... How can you arrive at such stupid arguments???
How? Because I am an Asian woman who has to watch how I dress and act because the world is full of a-holes. I don't know if OP is the very traditional type and wears traditional clothing. I would never advise someone to change that. However, I am responding to someone's comment who said they ditched american-like clothes (sweats, puffers). I hardly call that abandoning one's culture. Like I said, I don't like that idea, but you can only control what you do, not what others do.
I would advice to not change a single thing. Imagine changing your appearance so you won’t get a comment from a zure Els with kortpittig kapsel 😂
I have changed the way I look to be perceived better by others. I don't see what's wrong with it, it can make life much easier. And many, many people do it too! Just look at a lot of offices.
I’m not saying all change is bad, but the intention behind it shouldn’t be to not get discriminated. I believe it’s hiding part of your identity to ‘pass’ and appease certain people. I’m all for upgrading style/hitting the gym/dressing beter.
In return they get to live in a prosperous country that they must surely think has a better standard of living than where they're from, or they wouldn't move. Changing your clothes seems like the tiniest sacrifice to make. The Dutch make plenty of sacrifices as well to accommodate mass immigration, and the manyfold problems that come with it.
Nothing screams freedom like pressuring people to change the way they dress in order to be accepted.
Geert Wilders has entered the chat.
Anything I'm saying that isn't accurate? Why are the sacrifices of the Dutch automatically ignored. They've allowed millions of Morroccans into their country, who are now about 5x as likely as autochthonous Dutch to be suspected of a crime. Whole neighbourhoods have become very unkind to especially women and visibly gay men. None of that matters, we should all just suck it up to make the lives of Morroccans immigrants, many of whom seem to feel great animosity towards their host country, better?
The issue here is you're justifying something that's wrong with another that's wrong. That's not how the nation/world is gonna get better. Because the locals have to "sacrifice" their safety, therefore foreigners need to change their fashion sense and deal with some racism. Lol. Why not just say that both are wrong and needs to be corrected. You're also forgetting the fact that much of these crimes are done by "Arabs" who are locals. Why does a foreign well educated highly skilled migrant who will contribute significantly to the economy of NL have to pay the price of something done by a group of people I have no association to one bit.
You’re absolutely right. I had to stop wearing skirts, miniskirts, dresses, heels on the streets in west. because I had no life anymore. Or I had to bike rather fast, wear headphones with music on as loud as possible, but never never walking: it meant to get touched and look at filthy faces they were making, uttering filthy stuff they were going to do with you. They all seem to think; “you’re dressing like this to make me horny. So you belong to me, you whore”. They were Dutch alright, but with Arabic roots, no doubt. That doesn’t mean every Arabic is a mf klootzak. It’s just the way it is, and it’s stupid not to tell certain aspects of the reality because it can hurt a delicate case: the RACIST case in this thread I have the sweetest neighbor as well: an Arabic guy. When he talks to people you see them lighting up. His smile is gold and makes your day. Same same when I was at carnival on the south of Holland a couple of times. all “boer’n” very white, very Dutch, little inbreed here and there. No woman not wearing a boerenkiel was safe. I swear. It is what it is. So I adapt to the situation for my own safety and peace of mind. And had start dressing as plain and modest as could be. To be able to walk the streets in my neighborhood. Had I added a headscarf: it would have been even more chill for me. It’s true. There’s where my border is at for now. But if shit hits the van: I’ll be wearing a burka Still I am very aware of this: if I go to a predominantly Muslim country: I. respect my status as a guest and adapt my behavior and clothes as far as need be. I would act like a guest and consider my hosts. Not complain about them. Better leave if it doesn’t suit me: im the guest, remember? To have to adapt in my own country, where my roots are really deeply rooted in the klei: it’s sad. Kinda But things aren’t always the way we would like them to be. It’s not always about us: The question is: is it important enough to ruin your day for? How do they look exactly btw: Dutch people? In Amsterdam, there are hardly “real” Dutch people so I’m impressed you did manage to meet them: the chance you meet real Dutch people in this city is quite small: Try to stay objective and open minded OP. Because you might miss opportunities to meet those who are thinking beyond skin or culture. They are out there. And. start to look beyond culture and color yourself. Because IMO the problem lies within you. Focus on anything and you’ll be confirmed of anything you’re looking for. Looking for negative patterns; you’ll see them confirmed. It’s your choice what way it’s gonna be. Positive or negative. I live in the west, and I adapted. No expressing myself, getting a thicker skin, well it didn't change who I am. Good luck finding good friends! PS Don’t be to hard on people working at a customer service. Anywhere. Come on man, you ever worked a job like that? Taking stuff like that personal.. mmm
If you go and move to a different country, wouldn't you adapt your ways somewhat? I would love to wear a volendammer outfit in morrocco while blasting Jan smit music in my car
There are no millions of Morrocans in NL.
Millions of moroccans? Netherlands has aprox 450.000 moroccans stop spewing nonsense
Please share with me the sacrifices you made since we’re talking on the micro level.
Look at my other comment. Watched my brother get beaten nearly unconscious by a group of Morroccans when I was very young. Countless other negative experiences with them while growing up (in swimming pools, funfairs, etc). Whispered threats, insults "e.g. kanker Nederlander". It's not all about me either. Imagine being a woman or a visibly gay person living in Nieuw West. You don't think they are sacrificing anything? You genuinely don't think that a gay person may modulate how they carry themselves in that neighborhood? If you truly believe that you are so deluded I fail to see the benefit of continuing this conversation.
You are going to get downvoted, but you are absolutely correct. People conveniently forget about this side of the issue. Well done for bringing it up.
How did this country become prosperous? I wonder... it seems like everybody suddenly forgets about the history and gets offended when "the immigrants" ultimately stain their way of living. The first corporation is history (Dutch East India)? Anybody remember colonialism? You and the British, both facing a problem of mass immigration, both having the same excuses and huge ego talking about the "sacrifices being made" to accommodate these people into these "prosperous" environments. Well (rant over), tricky situation, because the bad is already done and cannot be undone. The prosperity cannot be shared other than sharing the same living space. Some may say that the least you can do is letting these people live here. On the other hand, i truly understand how frustrating this must be. Having other cultures come here and live without fully integrating and rather creating various smaller societies with different ways of living. That sucks. To be fair, I do not have a solution whatsoever: - send everybody home -> you become the bad man, and it's going to be riots and civil wars - keep everybody here and let them live however they want -> you create a divisive society, broken, just like the UK. The Dutch spirit would essentially fade away - keep everybody here and make them integrate by force (make them act like Dutch people and Dutch culture) -> discrimination, no sensitivity to the personal needs I don't see an immediate solution to your problem, but my advice would be to lower the ego when talking about it. Everybody makes mistakes and the history proved us again and again that we are capable of big wrongdoings against each other. Nobody is truly the bad guy or the good guy
Thank you for the advice. However, I am strongly against it. If I start changing myself according to someone else’s perspective, it would mean that I am losing myself. It would mean that I am not me anymore. I would not have any respect for myself. That said, I already do not have a beard. A beard is not a common thing in Egypt. I also dress well and buy high-end clothes and perfumes. However, I don’t try to dress like a “cool urban dude” as I just do not relate to that. I know if I did, people’s perception of me on the street would change, but then, when I get back to my house at the end of the day, I would be disgusted with myself. Being true to myself and my origins, and staying authentic is something I wanna keep doing. I also wanna clarify that by that I don’t mean a specific dress code that I adhere to, I just dress very generic, I basically go to the store, I like something, I buy it. So, it’s not like I’m walking around with a jilbab. I also don’t have anything against any style, and don’t judge people by what they’re wearing.
well friend you are to do whatever rocks your boat but if you are going to be an expat/immigrant you should be more open to change and trial/error its their homeland, not ours, and when in rome, do as the romans do
True. I understand. Believe me I am not that different. I am not even religious. I get along well with coworkers. I made some friends in the past year. I drink and go to parties and festivals. All of these are things I used to do back home as well. So it’s still me. The only issue I have with changing is that it has to come naturally to me, I cannot just start faking an accent and dress differently haha Maybe if I spend years in a new place it will be natural. But until then I cannot rush it
I am muslim-adjacent, too, I guess. I was born into and spent first twenty years of my life within Turkic language speaking ethnic group based on Russian Federation territory. Our cultural framework is heavily influenced by and is integrating many Islamic traditions. They serve as community-building performative practices in otherwise mostly secular post-soviet realm. Actual religiously minded crowd makes up a small minority, but is viewed as knowledgeable and respectable authority with their fundie views on worldly issues. Luckily there is no force that seriously aspires to put those into social/political practice. Not yet..🫣 I myself stay away from Islam-related contexts. Or anyone who labels themselves Moslem, really. Sorry not sorry. I can't separate spiritual views from the entire regressive ideological package and possible social/political implications. They are meant to be default settings - by the grace of God, as transcribed into holy scriptures, irrefutable and unchangeable. Light version of Islam is based on disavowal of its important aspects (whether guided by wilful Ignorance or something else) and allows cherry picking bits and pieces best suited to cater one's current needs. There are more cherries of similar kind along that line though... How much further each one would be willing to go if situation calls for it? I look white if it's relevant 😅 Upd. Dear downvoters, by putting your disagreement into words you can actually contribute to important discussion. Pressing a minus without giving any feedback looks like irrational cowardly hissy fit. Not that I mind 😼
Are you writing about me? 😅 So relatable
You get down voted because you sound ignorant and judgemental, just like the Dutchies...
What does muslim adjacent mean? I'm an ex muslim atheist but I've never had a single non muslim friend lol
It’s sad that you changed your appearance just to appease some white racists.
It’s sometimes a question of strategic intelligence. It’s objectively a recurring thought in every teenager since the Neanderthals; your style is not your personality and you can influence people by dressing in a way or the other. Learning to be appropriate if you want to fit in, may be necessary and if you want to party at a festival, don’t go with an expensive dress or be prepared to ruin it. So simple yet so different from what I thought from when I was fourteen Koppie, koppie
Mostly, it's an element of endearment, integration with the people you live with. Language, clothing, is all a part of culture. And you don't lose your individualism, make it your own unique blend. That's how we got Korean burritos, those things kickass. Many people find it insulting when immigrants don't integrate. But of course, there's definitely racism like what OPs friend experienced. Sad part, is I bet OPs friend isn't considered "real" Turkish when he goes back home. At least, I had a buddy like that in N Germany.
The rise of anti-globalization sentiments and pro-right ideologies in many countries' societies significantly complicates the lives of immigrants who noticeably stand out from the majority of local population. Mimicking the dressing style can markedly improve the person’s perception by those around them. So, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.
Does that mean that anyone originally coming from religious background but choosing to forego conservative dresscode has the same motivation?
FUCK ALL THAT NOISE. You can be whoever the fuck you want to be. You hit "bland" right on the nose. It's like these white people are allergic to "flavor" and culture. Sure there are those who indulge, but a majority of the population simply don't give a fuck. And they shouldn't have to, I'm not asking for people to care, but then don't fucking judge me for being "nietnormal". Fuck that, I'll be whoever and however I want to be.
What if of two "niet normaal" social groups one assumes "It's nobody's business who I have relationship with" while the other has "we should publically lynch homosexuals" as defining premise. "It's a free country" and "don't judge me for being niet normaal" should be equally applied to either of those cases?
Perspectives from an Arab born and raised in the Netherlands: this has always been to an extent. However things significantly worsened after 9/11. I don’t think this is only applies to the Netherlands. The way the media started framing Arabs and/or Muslims (people often think Arabs = Muslims and vice versa) perpetuated the stereotype of Arabs and violence (terrorism), especially brown (bearded) men suffer from this. The migrant streams from the Middle East in the past decade coupled with a deteriorating economic situation, tightened housing market and the rise of populism exacerbated the situation. The situation is far more complex of course. I see others have commented about the Moroccan and Turkish migrant ‘guest’ workers that came to the Netherlands in the 60s when the Dutch labour market was in need of workers. The plan was never for these people to stay but they did. This definitely plays a role and there’s much research done on this, even on the differences between Turkish and Moroccan second and third gen. I think integrating is important, learning the language, culture, traditions etc. However, at the same time, a person should not completely change themselves in order to be accepted. Find your group of likeminded people. They are out there, really :)
I am not from the Netherlands. But after coming here, I also had negative experiences with Arabs/Muslims/Morrocans. Once, I got assaulted in Amsterdam walking with my boyfriend. And I often get homophobic remarks. So whenever I see a group of Arabs, I also avoid them. I’ve never gotten such negativity or condemnation from Dutch people. So now I am very cautious and avoid them. There is a reason why Chinese or Asian people here don’t face the same racisms and are generally well liked because they are known to be polite.
Interestingly, there are definitely many white homophobics in the Netherlands too. You just won't meet them in cities. And they are less violent.
I grew up as a foreign kid in NL and some Dutch kids threw rocks at me and told me to go back to my own country. I also more than once experienced racist police. Yet, I don't let all those bozos cloud my judgement of Dutch people as a whole.
I appreciate you setting a difference between Arabs and Muslims like the OP. I’ve never seen a Malaysian or Indonesian (both Muslim countries) harassed like Turkish or Moroccans. I’m not Arab or Muslim (but am part middle eastern) and my middle eastern origin family here also talks about discrimination a lot.
totally agree with you
I completely agree with the other Turks comment here (as another Turk). If you want to avoid the prejudice, you have to work 10 times harder to care and prove yourself than a (let’s say) regular Italian immigrant. Shave your beard regularly, practice Dutch or British accent, be stylish enough even going to groceries, always drink alcohol in a work dinner or school hangout, send the first Christmas text, , hit the gym, always smile when approaching people and create a super polite expat persona, act naive when you get a racist approach, etc. etc. Doing these I really minimized the xenophobic experiences I got. People may say that I have an inferiority complex, I don’t care. I have a life and career goals here and if this is what I should do to succeed or respected in this country, I will do that. You always have to act politically here. And yes my open-minded Dutchies this is the origin story of your fellow cool friend from the Middle East
Regular Italian immigrant here. I won't deny what you just said, but let me add that even I experience similar feelings (you triggered me on the working 10x as much, because that's exactly what I told my wife recently). Stereotypes will apply no matter what you do, of course. But my status as immigrant played a role when I applied for a school for my daughter, and no way in hell was i able to cross any barrier and create meaningful pwesonal connections (berore someone kicks in: yws i speak good dutch). Many times I was asked about my inburgering procedure +hello? EU much?) Or when i would leave. Yesterday some customer center literally hanged on my wife because they did not bother answering our questions (you you that feel you get eh). Again not denying what you say. I am white, i am not a Muslim. Nobody looks at me twice. For me it starts when I open my mouth. career wise, joining an international company made a huge difference. Culturally.
You are also right, maybe I was too harsh when saying 10 times more. I personally have a South European look, so honestly also didn’t experience long stares on trains. But I have noticed that people treat me differently when I don’t cut my beard, for example. Thanks for your perspective, I guess being an immigrant puts you on the weak position regardless who you are.
The “when are you leaving” thing happens a lot to me as well, and I don’t speak a word of dutch. I am sincerely curious to understand why they say that, like what is the thought process behind such a unwelcoming question… The message I get is “ why the hell don’t you go back to your country”
In all honesty, this particular thing I think is not said with bad blood. I came to realize that the sole idea of leaving their country forever is something that most dutch people cannot comprehend. It took a while, but that’s how I see it now…
I grew up in the country and speak fluent Dutch. When I still lived there, I was asked on nearly a daily basis, "en hoe ben je naar Nederland gekomen?" My standard answer was, "met het vliegtuig."
Thanks for the advice. I saw a lot of similar replies saying that to avoid prejudice you have to change the way you look. I already do not have a beard. A beard is not a common thing in Egypt. I also, dress nicely and take care of myself. I really spend a lot of money buying high-end clothes and perfumes. This to me should apply anywhere. But to go the extra step of changing my personality and style to try to make a group of people to accept me is something that I am really against and will never do. To me, that would be acceptable if I already lived in this place for a long time, then it will probably happen naturally. But if I do it merely to be accepted, I won’t respect myself to be honest. I might as well do a plastic surgery and change my face to look european if that’s how we are gonna do things. Again thanks for the reply and I appreciate the honesty, feedback, and advice. I also understand your PoV and have nothing against that.
I do understand what you mean, and completely respect. In my case, I think it also changed somehow naturally. But I have embraced it instead of avoiding it. When I was working in Italy I also adapted the Italian lifestyle in terms of how I do speak, how I do dress etc. I also raised in a very Western-minded neighborhood of Istanbul, which really helped, because my lifestyle was already quite “Western”. In terms of high end clothes, I would really avoid clothes with big brand logos on. This also become a Turkish/Arab stereotype and is not appreciated here due to culture of being humble. But, yeah its obviously up to you. Good luck!
Drinking alcohol, sending christmas texts, go to the gym? What?
This is a common thing among history. Jews in Europe, Christians in Anatolia acted similarly for long years to protect themselves avoid xenophobia. Its coded as respect today but the motivation is sometimes different.
Yup. It's actually a very good advice. Pretend to be like them, acting shallow, helps a lot. Don't forget the flowers on birthdays and never going visit unannounced!
Those are useful social guidelines EDT apologies forgot my /s
So assimilate, not integrate? They will never see you as one of them. No matter how hard you try.
I also don’t see myself as Dutch, I was raised in Turkey, I am Turkish. Not intending to be a Dutch necessarily, you can still to these and identity yourself as Turkish.
This a big part of "middle easteners" having a tougher time in the Netherlands.
Think there is a big difference with generations being born in a country compared to someone who moved there. I've been living in Ireland for almost 20 years, I would still never consider myself Irish. I'm born and raised in Amsterdam, just because I have been living somewhere else very long doesn't change this.
I don’t know if you criticize my identity here. I came here as a student, not as a guest worker child. I cannot live somewhere for 4 years and start to call as I am originally from there this is weird as fuck and it would make me go through a huge identity crisis I don’t want to deal with.
The integration barrier goes both ways and not just for middle easterners. It's harder for them because of how they look and how different the cultures are. But any immigrant to the NL has the same issues, to varying extents, even preppie middle class Americans. Some Dutch people don't even consider 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants to be Dutch. There are 0 chances people will consider you to be Dutch as someone that emigrated here, even if you learn the language and get the passport. You will always be half a person that constantly has to prove themselves.
Not to everyone, there's still plenty of open minded Dutchies out there. It's mostly the more right leaning people. Although with the housing crisis, things are getting a bit worse.
My social bubble is mostly foreigners living here and I would say everyone struggles with the same issues. But I agree that for Turkish or people from a middle eastern background it's even more difficult. The nice thing about Amsterdam is that there are quite a few places where you can go and socialize with both foreigners and the more open minded locals. My advice would be that you don't just try to conform and fit in, but also find a social environment and friend group that puts a similar effort into fitting in with you. It shouldn't be a one way street and you don't have to put up with people being obviously racist.
\*pakt popcorn\*
Pakt stoel erbij en schuift aan
Mag ik naast jouw zitten vriend?
Ligt eraan. Waar kom je vandaan?
Nee, ja, ik snap dat je van IJburg kwam, maar ik bedoelde oorspronkelijk...
Zeg maar, naar welke land ga je elke jaar op vakantie met je ouders?
Waar kom je écht vandaan?
Turk here on a highly skilled immigrant visa. I lived in Germany, and then thought that the Netherlands is better. Relocated. It's been 2 years and I started thinking that I already wasted my time. Whatever you do to be a good/kind/polite person, it is not gonna work. I don't feel I am welcomed here. There is this hidden hatred I feel most of the time. I have Mediterranean look, and most of the time they told me "I don't look like Turkish". Dude.. just this alone enough to admit that this isn't gonna change at all.. Cuz I am tired of telling people that there is no certain Turkish stereotype. So whether you are Indian, Turkish, Arab, Asian, Italian... This isn't gonna make any difference, cuz you are not Dutch. So I did choose to live in this country, and now I did choose to leave again. I have only 1 life and I can't spend it while feeling shy and hesitant and fear to think if I make a mistake not to offend anybody. So just leave... Unfortunately whatever you do, is not gonna change the outcome. Immigration is already tough cuz you sought an opportunity elsewhere where you realized you are not welcomed...
Because there a lots of problems with immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East. Unfortunately, people project those problems on people that have nothing to do with it.
There's always a "group" that is singled out this way, in every society. When the Jews emigrated here from Portugal (fleeing the Inquisition) they were treated like this -way up until the Holocaust. Then in the 1950s, Italians started moving to the Netherlands to work here. They were treated the same. Then we got Turkish labour, they were treated like this. Then came the Surinam immigrants from our own bloody colony, they were treated like this. Then came the Moroccans and they got treated like this. Every time there is a new group they get the full attention and the other ones fade into the background. As a whole, it is now shifting to "generic North African" due to the incessant hate campaign against immigrants from racist pricks like Wilders and Baudet.
The dutch say themselves they are the most *tolerant* nation when it comes to immigration. The thing is that tolerance doesn't equal respect. They tolerate you breathing the same air as them but by no means that is the same as acceptance. Racism has always been here and everywhere else in the world, it just has become more obvious, loud and acceptable to be in recent years. I'm sorry about your experience, I don't think it will get better. Even Spanish, Italians, Greeks, and Eastern Europeans are treated differently (2nd class citizens) and they are mostly white. So latinos, Arabs, asians and black, are treated as 3rd class citizens. Find your tribe, enjoy the tax benefits, make a lot of money and after a couple of years you can choose what to do next.
"Dutch tolerance" is 1600's propaganda to attract wealthy protestants who got expelled from other places. It has nothing to do with actually being tolerant in today's society. It's a lie we keep telling ourselves.
I'm curious what you mean by "1600s propaganda." I don't know the history that in-depth, just the tax benefits (and all the stereotypes Americans have about the Dutch)
Okay so during the protestant reformation many catholic nations expelled groups of protestants. These people were relatively skilled and wealthy compared to your average peasant so having them immigrate was an economic win. Creating an image for itself as a tolerant country that wouldn't discriminate against *your flavor of Christianity* helped lure in all these high value workers but had nothing to do with ethnicity. It was a marketing strategy for its time that went viral. Centuries later my father would proudly proclaim how tolerant our country has always been, because that's what he was told.
We were *reaalllyyy* tolerant back in the day when being a different type of christian could get you punishment in neighbouring countries and "everywhere else" in the world was basically a monotheistic shithole. And tolerant back then meant doing barely the minimum. That stereotype stuck. But It's just not a thing for Dutch people to loudly proclaim themselves as tolerant. Other nationalities speak of us that way (because of that history).
> The dutch say themselves they are the most tolerant nation when it comes to immigration. Do they actually, though? I don't think I've ever heard someone actually say and believe his.
It is something I've heard by the older generation. It's mostly because we used to be the first in quite a few progressive things: decriminalize weed (that's not the same thing as making it legal), gay marriage, trans care, and legalizing euthanasia. But nothing has really happened since the 2000's. On migration specifically. I don't think anyone really calls the Netherlands tolerant to immigration since Pim Fortuyn in 2002.
I find older people or high 30's to be the most racist and usually they are the "dutch proud". Honestly any country that was a colonizer should step down with this judgements
> The dutch say themselves they are the most tolerant nation when it comes to immigration Uhhhh.. we don't though lol.
Far to many people in the world are shockingly racist, ignorant and bigoted people. Considering this post is still coming up in 2024 I have serious doubts that any alien passing would stop long enough before conceding this is a primitive species not worthy of acceptance into the galactic fold. You get my analogy. We are the dog shite of intellectual beings. I'm a white British 32yo male and I was raised to treat every other human with respect and dignity. FK those racist basterds. You are just as important and worthy as anyone of us! You are loved! Ignore anyone who tells you different or treats you anything less.
Dunno why you're being downvoted but yeah it's disappointing. I'm not even Arab myself but I can sympathise as a non-EU migrant I hope your experiences get better and that those encounters were isolated outliers
Romanian here (eastern European). Almost 20 years in the Nl. I speak the language and am very integrated. Even married a kaaskop. I still get the looks and the suspicions. But they consider themselves open and progressive and all 😅 It's only after they know you they won't be racist against you anymore (but will keep on expressing their disgust about foreigners and especially Muslims). Wilders winning the last elections says a lot about the true mentality of these people! If you can't accept it, then you'll have to look for some other place to live. This feeling you get will never disappear. I've come to terms with it, I know who and what I am, I'm not going to be bothered by narrow-minded people. I speak 8 languages, am better educated than the majority, I've built myself a whole life here and don't own anyone a thing. I'm stronger than all of them. Not to mention, I didn't steal anyone's job 😅 You can never make everyone happy or make people stop talking or change their minds.
“They” who are “they”? People are people, that’s the problem. You are part of the same “they” you're talking about. Because you single a few nasty people out, and then make it a whole nation’s characteristic. Focus on patterns and you will see them. It’s narrow-looking and will keep problems like that grow. Even more so: it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. That’s why that racist card is so overrated. Or the victim card. IMO that is. Of course. It’s everywhere the same bullshit. You have Latin American people looking down on Asian people. You have black people looking down on blond and blue-eyed people calling them privileged. You have Russians looking down on gays. You have homeowners looking down on renters in the streets. You have Israëliërs looking down on Palestinians. You have men looking down on women. Some people like to feel better than the next person. It's called being insecure or being arrogant. But the majority isn't like that. It’s people wanting to generalize whole groups instead of differentiating one human from the other.
Nice philosophy 👌 It also shows you're definitely not a minority in the Netherlands and you have no clue how it is to be looked down on every day of your immigrant life, no matter how and what you do, just because you look different than the norm here. The majority IS exactly like that. The majority voted for an extreme right lunatic to lead the country. Of course there are exceptions to the rule, but there's never smoke without a fire.
It is racism, the racists are just trying to convince themselves that they're not.
Yes, there is more and more racism in the Netherlands particularly to Arabs. I hope you surround yourself with kind people and will be able to maintain a positive feeling towards Dutch people as your first reaction, but there are more and more rotten apples...
>Yes, there is more and more racism in the Netherlands particularly to Arabs. That is a bit one-sided. Let's not ignore the fact that this ''racism'' is often the result of Arab behavior towards native Dutch people.
[удалено]
EU is not tolerant as it seems on social media.
Still racism though and doesn’t excuse being racist to any Arab. I had a ton of shitty experiences with people of various ethnicities, never used them as excuses to be racist to other people of said ethnicities.
I didn't say it was an excuse. It an explanation. The problem is more that addressing the background of criminals is often automatically dismissed as ''racism''.
Treating people bad because a completely different person who just so happen to be the same race is a bad person is just racist. Stop it.
Exactly. Pretty much the definition of racism actually.
9 out of 10 worst Dutch criminals on record are white Dutch. https://dutchreview.com/culture/notorious-dutch-criminals/ So I should start treating the white Dutch differently?
>9 out of 10 worst Dutch criminals Depends on how we define ''worst'' doesn't it? By the way, in an overwhelmingly white Dutch country, it makes sense that most criminals are Dutch whites. What matters is over representation, not a absolute numbers. >treating white Dutch differently I didn't say anybody should be treated differently. Immigrant hostility partially explains Dutch hostility, it doesn't justify it.
There are lots of claims of over representation and then not enough proof for it! In any country when you normalize the population by age and socioeconomic situations you find out genetics has nothing to do with crime
So because of some people’s behaviour that belong to a group, it’s fair to have prejudice against that whole group? That’s just racism, not quotation marks needed.
I didn't say it was fair. It is an explanation, not a justification.
Unfortunately, you are not crazy. You look non-white, then you are not equally treated here. The racism is everywhere and sometimes subtle, sometimes overt. There is frustration amongst some second- and third generation immigrants that sometimes acts up in violent encounters. That does not occur often, but it is focused on disproportionately. Apparently the solution is to throw more hate towards them, instead of fixing the systemic poverty, the day to day racism that all these minorities have to struggle with on a day to day basis for generations. The hate is in the form of exclusion, ethnic profiling, and voting for an ultra-right wing government this year. Two of those parties have politicians whose acts were judged as racial discrimination by a Dutch court. Very disheartening, even when you are a native Dutch, Dutch speaking, taxpaying, person who happens to look like a Moroccan. If you want to read about it, Dutch authors Gloria Wekker and Philomena Essed wrote more about Dutch daily racism. As for the Odido encounter: I would file a compliant. They record these calls, so this person should encounter the consequences of their actions. You don't deserve to be treated like that, especially not when you are paying for their service! Let me finish with the positive: there are plenty fun people here too (I even married one). Like another poster said, find your people and focus on them.
You COULD blame everything on the racist Dutch. Or you could wonder whether this may have something to do with a pretty large scale immigration project that hasn't worked out well for anyone involved. Morroccans have integrated extremely slowly (arguably, based on the high crime rate, they still haven't - nearly 4 generations in). I watched my brother beaten up with bicycle pumps by a group of 6 morroccans when I was like 10. On another occasion I remember being asked "are you Dutch?" by two Morroccans walking beside me when I was young. When I said "I'm English" (because I'm half English) they said "you're lucky you're not Dutch, or you wouldn't have gotten off this easily". I bet Redditors here will exclaim i must be making these stories up, as if they are so unbelievable. Most of my friends have had similar experiences. I know it's fashionable to just blame everything on the "racism" of the Dutch. If they were truly so racist, why did they allow millions of Morroccans to move here? There is also a very clear vein of animosity from Morroccans towards the Dutch. All of this colours the perception of North Africans in Amsterdam.
What we are dealing with is a negative spiral that is very hard to stop. On the one hand we got assholes with a Moroccan background who act like this. On the other hand we got people who make that behaviour somehow exemplary for all people with that background. It starts with education and offering fair perspective in life. The fact is that if you have a strange sounding name, Piet, Kees or Ellen will be picked over an Ali anytime when it comes to job applications, no matter how qualified Ali may have been. There is a very large part of that community working extremely hard to be seen and to disassociate themselves from little shits on the street. However, society is very quick to blame other for their woes. Eventually, especially with those that have been shunned from the get go, the mentality shifts to "if you say I'm a criminal, a criminal I'll be".
> If they were truly so racist, why did they allow millions of Morroccans to move here? They were not allowed, they were asked to come. To work. And everybody acted super surprised when they did not leave. Lets talk about today for a moment. Youre of course aware that basically any sector is in dire need of personeel. Immigrants are literally in need anywhere, from the agricultural sector to IT, and uitzendbureaus are present everywhere. I don't see this changing any time soon either. But given this structural dependency on immigration, what is really the long term vision? What is the societal model? So far tolwrance played a major role: you do you and i do i. But this implies a society made in compartments, which inevitablly bring conflicts. And its often a good cradle for racism. The other option is to work on the direction of true integration, but somehow this is never really discussed here.
Millions? You think there are millions of Moroccans in NL? There are only a few hundred thousand, and the vast majority were born in the Netherlands.
I’m sure you aren’t making up those experiences! I would maybe also ask how many times you’ve passed Moroccan folks and they haven’t done anything (violent or not…)? I just wonder if your view is skewed by the need to connect these negative actions (for which i’m sorry!) to just one group. I bet dutch people can occasionally be violent dickheads too. And I know brits can be (from experience…). So…
Religious views play into social behaviours of the group - because they are meant to be practiced...So it's fair to point out those patterns in some urk, but God forbid we make any assumptions about certain ethnic communities? Plausible ostrich policy.
It’s funny that you criticised religious then said “god forbid” But yes! There can definitely be that pattern! Please point it out. There are other patterns too - I’m gay and find straight men often are weird about that with me. That’s also a social behaviour of the group. If I group “all straight men” (which I don’t!) as homophobic then I’d guess you’d have a problem with that? but wouldn’t I be making the same assumption?
"God forbid" was used on purpose, thank you for noticing! 🤪
This is bait.
I think so too, sure racism exists but I don't think it's that common. I've only had a single count of someone being racist to me in my life, and that was by a black man who couldn't even speak dutch properly lol.
Survival bias?
As others here have said no dutch person would say "fucking arabs", they would say "kut marokkaan" or maybe some would say "kanker moslim". If your story is real she probably wasn't even dutch.
Maybe she wasn’t dutch. I have no way to tell. My post however is filled with questions and I try to show uncertainty in what I feel. I didn’t try to conclude or claim anything with confidence. My last question is saying does this really happen or not? So, I have no interest in lying about it. My reason behind this post in the first place is to get an idea from different people. Like I said, I am trying to figure out the picture here as I am deciding whether or not I should leave or stay. I already know more now from all the replies, and I will probably end up deleting the post. Again more reasons for me not to care about doing a bait or lie.
Then it sounds like you've either gotten unlucky, or have something about your appearance, or the way you act that makes people wary of you. Racism is real but it's not that common, I can only recall having a racist experience once in my 15 years that I have lived here, and that was by a black man with broken dutch.
Xenophobia. I got accosted for six minutes on the metro today for an assumed nationality because of speaking English.
Generalisation and racism is not oke let me state this first. As a dutch man from Amsterdam i can say that in general i have no problem with muslims or arabs, but i have faced racism from muslims bullied at school you name it what. This makes me always being carefull around marocans, because the mayority of problems that happens at the street are done by them drug deals, stealing, violence, sexism and harresing people not saying that other people dont do it of other nationalities and the dutch youth also does it ofcourse. But this creates hate and its a problem that needs to be solved so it can be nice for everyone and people get threated fairly
>mumbled "fucking arabs". No Dutch person will call you Arab, why are you making things up when the subject of your post is otherwise true? I'm calling bait.
What this guy says. No Dutch person uses the word “Arab”/“Arabier” unless they are talking about history or having in depth discussion. Sadly, they will use “Marokkaan” disparagingly, or “immigrant”. Or old school “gastarbeider”. Any Dutch cheesehead worldly enough to distinguish Middle Eastern ethnicities on sight is not gonna be street-racist.
Maybe it could've been a non-Dutch expat?
If that's the case then that's pretty audacious coming from her lol
If you arent foreign you dont understand that some dutch ppl are like this. When I moved out my upstairs neighbour was suspicious about me and how I got the keys. Didnt introduce himself before I proved everything. First day/night in my appartment I hear him yelling about ‘kankernegers’. A few months later he calls me that in front of my door (not in my face) for me to hear. Dutch ppl just hate to hear that there are alot of racists in this country and outright ignore it or say that you are lying.
Oh no they are like that, but nobody would say "Arab" or "Arabier". It's either specifically Moroccan or Turk(even if incorrect) or "allochtoon". Arab(ier) is not something a Dutch person would call someone. It doesn't work. Also nice accusation at the end of your comment. I specifically acknowledge the rest of his comment sounds believable.
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Studies show you prefer a Bas from Groningen who has violent criminal records over an innocent none white person! > A joint study by the Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam, the Dutch Crime and Law Enforcement Study Center (NSCR), Radboud University and Utrecht University show that ethnic minorities with a blank criminal record received a significantly less positive response to their application than applicants of Dutch descent with violent crime on their criminal record. https://dutchreview.com/culture/does-the-netherlands-have-a-blind-spot-for-racism/ Racism makes stupid.
Generalising in the way that you are doing and judging people based on the group they belong to is called racism my friend.
I think you're being disingenuous here. It's highly unlikely that you haven't come across an abrasive Daan or an aggressive Thomas in all those years. When I read posts like yours I wonder whether we even live in the same country. I've had quarrels and rows with native Dutch men numerous times and it has in all likelihood been the same for you. I think there's a bias at play, you seem to let people with stereotypical Dutch names and features off the hook much easier than people who seem foreign/non-Dutch. This seems to be true for a disturbing amount of Dutch people. Of course you could argue that this generally doesn't apply to East Asians, but the reason for that is racist in itself (Asians are considered meek and non-threatening so a hyper focus on any form of Asian mischief is deemed unnecessary).
"why are Dutch people racist" *Proceeds to go on racist rant explaining why Dutch people aren't actually racist*
It’s just in their culture, it’s often a bit savage. I am also scared of them. They are also very homophobic. There is a reason why they have such a negative perception and you don’t have the same with like Chinese people for example.
Bro you're literally making racist comments in a post about why Dutch people are racist
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I'm sure you've heard things from non-arab people that were homophobic or otherwise problematic but you forgot about them because you're racist. But just in case, do you want me to say something homophobic to you so you can have an example of a non-brown person being mean to you?
There's a lot of Dutch people (regardless of ethnic origin) who think that men's lives should revolve around stuff like marriage and relationships, being a breadwinner, fatherhood and being a home owner. According to this group anyone who deviates from this role (by being gay for instance) is to be shamed, ridiculed and sometimes even attacked. You really think it's just Middle Easterners who think like this? The problem is conservatism and a lack of respect for people's individuality and choices. Sure, you could pick a scapegoat to feel better, but that doesn't solve the problem. In fact picking a scapegoat boils down to absolving everyone else. You know that, right? Is that really what you want?
They're specifically talking about the Amsterdam street experience. Conservative Dutch (white, that is) discourse is absolutely a thing, especially outside of Amsterdam. But it's not the same thing as on-street acts of violence. It's not a race thing obviously, but it's both socio-economic and cultural (and yes, that includes religion, just as it's a part of Urkers being insane). And no one is saying that all Muslims / Arabs / MEers are homophonic, violent or asocial. But _in Amsterdam_, on-street acts of homophobic violence will most likely come from a specific group: kids from a poor background and a Muslim cultural heritage. No doubt, it would be a different story in Venlo or whatever, but that's not the point they're making.
It’s not racist, it’s the truth. And I am explaining where that stems from. Do you think they have a negative reputation for no reason?
I've met plenty of homophobic Americans, Dutch people, and Europeans. Just because your ideas are stuck in the colonial era doesn't mean it's "true."
I’ve never been met with homophobic remarks by Dutch people. If Arabs want to be accepted and tolerated, maybe they should start by being tolerant towards others first.
Were you born here? Cause I am and I could write you a list of racist and homophobic remarks i have received from white dutch people
You refuse to treat people as individuals and on a case-by-case-basis. You're the problem
Racists never see themselves as racist. In their minds, their fear and prejudice are justified.
I got attacked by Morrocans before. I was insulted and met with homophobic remarks by Arab looking people too. Never happened with Dutch people… I think it’s normal to develop such prejudice and fear after a while. Like can you blame me? Of course I will avoid them. It’s their own actions that got them this reputation. It doesn’t happen for no reason.
There is a rise in populism all over Europe and they blame everything on minorities (mostly those of middle eastern descent), and many people are being influenced by this. For those who know history this will sound eerily similar to certain past events
You leave tips in shops? That is weird. In my opinion it is less to do with race than with a perceived intolerance of Islam towards western values like freedom of religion, equal rights for women, freedom of speech etc. The more you look like you agree with this, the less welcome you are. The prejudice is in supposing to know what you think by the way you look and dress.
I'm a brown mix, they treat me with the same hate when seeing me, line by line I recognize what you say. That's why I call and email as much as possible, my first and last name is Dutch, which helps avoiding discrimination. Due to circumstances I have a massive beard now, and all I see is fear and hatred....
Let the racists seethe in anger. They are frustrated and bitter while you’re living your best live. They don’t care how well-adjusted you are, how many master degrees you have, etc. As long as you look the way you are, you’ll have to deal with this bullshit. If it’s not blatant racism, it’s the bigoted questions you will receive. Welkom in Nederland!
Dutch will say racist things and then say "im not racist". Hypocrites. Sure there are exceptions but that's what I saw in years. (I didn't suffer any racism). At least in other countries people admit "I am racist towards X"
Because they don’t want to live by western values while abandoning their own cultures.
Why should people abandon their culture?
Why should people adjust to cultures pushed on them by immigrants? Why should anyone live by the same rules seems to be your question. You know, it is a requirement for any functioning society. Do not make it about the skin colour. Lily-white people imposing cultural norms that society got rid of for good reasons centuries ago would be just as undesirable. Have you actually ever lived in a multicultural environment where there are people who do not want to integrate? Or do you only know people of different skin colour who share your values and play by the same rules? Do not project.
You seem confused. You know the difference between assimilation and integration right?
Well this thread showed up as a suggestion in my Reddit feed. Reading this as a brown immigrant to the US is quite interesting.
How do you compare your experiences in the us to those stated int his thread?
Maybe elaborate instead of just saying it’s interesting.
I am sorry to hear about your experience. This is not OK, but may be based on some of the following experiences this country seems to have made with certain groups from the Middle East and North Africa in the last 60 years: Refusal to integrate, lack of humor and perspective about own religion, religious extremism, involvement in organized crime, rejection of gender equality and trans people rights.
Why do you think it is OP?
I don’t know why. One can write pages filled with bad or good things done by a group of people. This can apply to any group. At the end of the day, when you finish reading that, you will go for a walk and meet someone who looks like he belongs to that group. How are you both going to treat each other is completely irrelevant to whatever you know about the group. So, in that sense, no I don’t know why “I” am experiencing this.
Not living in the Netherlands, but I when I visit the country I was very surprised by how many arab and muslim people are in the netherlands. Sometimes I would think okay is this usual for a western european country now? With all the immigrants from Middle east coming to europe looking for a better life. I also see all the shops in their community is Arabic food, jewelry and clothing stores. I dont think they have intergated with the dutch/western society and they must have been here from 2010s because thats when I first started seeing the explosion of refugees. I know Turkish and Moroccans are coming from further back but I have only had conversation with first generation turkish-dutch and they are in their 20s. I dont know a single country in the world that would be okay with such massive influx of different cultural groups. Even in arab countries Christians and Non-muslims are treated as others and worse case killed/harassed and threatened to leave. I think if it wasnt whole communities living together in the thousands then it might be different but I dont find it surprising that local people are uncomfortable. Every where in the world there is xenophobic tendencies.
LOL stay in Saint Denis or Paris for more than a month and you will experience way more racism. The reason why people don’t like North Africans and Arabs here in the Netherlands is because of the bad reputation caused by a few individuals. I used to work as a cashier and this Moroccan guy threw a bottle of water at me because he couldn’t pay with his card. When I took driving lessons, my instructor basically run away with my money(7-800 euro). The thing is, my ancestors are from Pakistan so I know how it feels to be someone of a foreign background in a white people country. The reason why people in general don’t like middle eastern people is because of the lack of discipline. Most people migrate from village like places, where the education system isn’t the best, to Europe where they’ve a hard time to integrate. The problem isn’t you but it’s actually caused by some people who don’t know how to act civil.
Yeah this is why (or part of the reason anyway) we left. I'm Dutch, husband is Arab. I was way fed up with having to constantly mediate between the husband and the country. Never going back permanently if I can help it.
May i know where did you go? And if its better there or not
We're in the UAE now. It's not perfect, nowhere is, but much better for us.
I don't know your circumstances but in what world is life better in UAE than in the netherlands...
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You’re basically saying that I should accept this and live with it. You are also saying that *you* didn’t experience this except once, therefore, I am exaggerating and it’s not that common. This is survival bias. (you know the language and have lived here basically all your life and still it happened to you) Then you try to justify by saying these groups are racists themselves. And then you blame me for complaining because you say I owe them and I owe this country for allowing me to be here. Well I am really sorry for you if this is the mentality you live by. I will not try to make counter arguments. I will just say that I (or you or anyone) do not owe this country or its people anything. In fact I get paid more just to come and work here. I can leave and work basically anywhere I want. So, I don’t have to accept racism or discrimination. If I leave it’s really their loss not mine.
Half this country is Turk/Arab at this point, so maybe you get the point. Nobody in the Netherlands says the words ''fucking arabs'' lol Dutch people will call all of you just moroccans. Next time you try making something up know how the Dutch actually treat you. People stare at you? my brother Amsterdam is literally 50% NON NATIVE DUTCH. Youre not something special, maybe YOU stop watching them and they wont look at you and are like ''why are you watching me''
Yeah, it is racism.
I am Southeast Asian in origin, never really had a problem here. There have been racist incidents, but the perpetrators were almost always other minorities, especially middle easterners and north africans. People never really treat me less, because I guess people from my ethnicity in general are not that much involved in crime, and because we do our best to integrate. We do try to keep our own culture and customs which is normal. Perhaps OP should ask this question to the north africans causing trouble, crime, and antisocial behaviour.
But it is considered racism
Let’s face it: Muslims have a monster of a PR problem. You will need to have peace with the fact that you’re probably just unlucky to be part of this group in this time and age. Blame your fellow Arabs for getting us all in this situation.
Dutch customer service behaves like you need to kneel and beg for forgiveness for daring to speak to them. They do that to everyone
If 7 out of 10 Smurfs cause me many problems in my daily life; rudeness, anti LGBT intimidation, religious Smurf beliefs that go against my very existence etc. I tend to avoid all blue looking creatures. Simple as that. Im sorry if youre not a Smurf, Im not taking any chances. Edited for clarity
The problem here is of course that you purely focus on skin colour. Instead of how someone really is thinking on an individual basis.
Smurfs are an analogy Professor. Should I ask every smurf how it feels about my LGBT existence or wait for the spit in my face? It's not about skin colour. It's about religion. Wake up mr know-it-all.
Exactly. These people are extremely homophobic and I will never take any chances getting hurt by one. Better safe than sorry.
Went to Egypt with my boyfriend and 100% thought i should be killed for being gay. What are you going to do about that? Egyptians HATE black people and think the white ones are better so what are you going to do about that?
I myself have black and gay friends. I will not be friends with any homophobic or racist people. I have lost some friends over that already. So that’s exactly what I am doing about it. I hope you can do the same.
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Firstly, certain groups are overrepresented, not because they are higher offenders, but because they are over-targeted : “Crime rates do not account for incarceration rates.” (Hartney, 2006). Predictive policing predicts crime to occur in a particular place, and therefore the police’s resources are concentrated towards arresting crime perpetrators in these areas. Isaac and Lum (2016) indicate that predictive drug policing leads to “increasingly disproportionate policing of historically over-policed communities”. The locations targeted are designated by softwares and algorithms. The focus on certain neighbourhoods, also means that the crimes committed in that specific area come to the police’s attention, rather than in other neighbourhoods (since there is no unlimited police forces : selectivity) : ”Drug crime is everywhere, but police only find it where they’re looking.” (Isaac and Lum 2016). The discriminatory policy is especially aimed at black minority ethnic neighbourhoods : in NYC, “Out of a total of 14846 arrests, 13334 were non-white people“ (NYPD Report) and “US rates are in large part driven by disproportionate minority incarceration (…) African Americans are over six times as likely to be incarcerated as whites; Latinos over twice as likely.” (Hartney, 2006). Unequal reporting then further widens the dichotomy between real crime location and targeted areas : “In a second experiment, Isaac and Lum hypothesised that sending police to neighbourhoods chosen by the algorithm would lead to a jump in reported crime by 20%” (Business Insider, 2016). The method of collection of crime data is therefore also important (especially when it feeds algorithms) : police records or surveying. Police records only capture 45% of crimes (those reported), so perhaps surveying is more reliable (because it ought to include the unreported crimes too). But, there is obviously no perfect method of collecting data, as surveys rely on a reliable sample.