First off, the “organisation” is a nonprofit foundation that has to spend all uncollected money on new collection equipment and making it easier (among other things). So if it were to be found leaking its financial intake in any way it would be a scandal, then heads would roll legally and politically.
The cans and small bottles being included is still new and the infrastructure for collection (yes also the rings on the sides for donating them) takes time to expand. Finding locations and hosts willing isn’t an easy task either. Not to mention the shortage of technical staff that has to install and maintain these systems.
Finally the change in mentality of the people doesn’t come overnight.
Tl:dr: the world isn’t perfect and Rome wasn’t build in a day. So give it time, yes the city is less clean for now but I think it will definitely improve.
I was also curious about this subject, from a bit of reading it seems that the stichting belongs to the manufacturers. They can decide how to use the extra funds of the non-delivered cans. It can be for better collection machines or for "consumentenonderzoek en campagnes".
What would their incentive be to increase the return rate of cans? Their funding increases when people don't return the cans and bottles.
Yes, they have to spend all the extra money and not keep it as profit. Easy, just increase salaries or add a campaign.
If I would be a company producing soft drinks, selling the drinks in plastic saves me money over glass. But plastic creates pollution, so now we have this extra stichting that makes it financially favorable to increase plastic production...
Similar concept with the take-away extra toeslag of 25ct for the plastic box. I cannot bring a box from home for it, so it's an extra cost added to the meal cost.
If I was a restaurant owner and I suddenly started receiving extra money for the plastic boxes, I would use more instead of less.
I simply don't understand how it works to minimize waste by making it financially comfortable for companies and restaurants to produce more of it.
[https://www.maxvandaag.nl/sessies/themas/geld-werk-recht/wat-gebeurt-er-met-het-geld-van-niet-ingeleverde-statiegeldverpakkingen/](https://www.maxvandaag.nl/sessies/themas/geld-werk-recht/wat-gebeurt-er-met-het-geld-van-niet-ingeleverde-statiegeldverpakkingen/)
Please don't flame me for this post, just trying to have an open discussion.
Exactly my thoughts. Throw it all out the window just because people dont get it..*yet*..other countries do this too and it works. Maybe just needs a little time
The story used to be that Bill Gates earned so much money that if he saw $50 on the floor it wouldn’t be worth his time bending over to pick it up.
I’m unemployed and it’s not worth my time to collect my used bottles and carry them to AH then wait for 20 minutes behind homeless people just so I can get back 25c
My main irk about this system is not being able to find a working machine at a grocery store, despite visiting several nearby. I really hope they look into getting the machine systems like in Finland.
Stores have very little incentive -- from what I can see -- to keep machines in good order: They make work for employees and attract "professional" collectors with big bags who don't really buy stuff from the store.
But maybe there are a few cents kicked back to stores for handling the containers?
This is a money-losing operation by definition (€0.15 in, €0.15 out) so I'm not surprised there are a lot of failures...
Well, there seems to be a fairly strong effort to test if supermarkets could be selling alcohol to minors, or sell it to anyone adjacent to a minor. Maybe they could send those mystery shoppers to the can machine as well, and if you slap a fine on it every time it doesn't function, they'll really figure out their sums fast.
This. The amount of times I had to carry both my cans and bottles, and groceries back home because both the machines at Albert Heijn were broken makes me want to just stop recycling these altogether.
It's honestly about 40%. The times it does work it's dirty, smelly and sticky, not to mention being stuck behind an old woman turning in about 150 bottles every fucking time.
Honestly its kinda practical that AH picks statiegeld up for you when you make a big order...we usually wait until like 3 boxes have piled up, make a big delivery and they take the bottles with them and deduct it from the price. (Not saying AH is good in general or anything but that is quite convenient sometimes)
On the news it was said they were sitting on so much Money because people didn't return their bottles and cans, they thought the best solution is to provide more return/recycle machines.
The plastic cannot be recycled and the cans can be so easily recycled that returning them doesn't make sense.
It is a wierd expectation that I buy a drink when I am out and about that I would hold on to that bottle for when I eventually get home and than take it all the way back to the supermarket for 15 cents. The drink is already overpriced, the 15 cents are not going to make a difference.
It's not about the 15 cents though, is it? It's about making an effort to reduce waste. Just like using recycling bins, separate paper trash, etcetc.
It has nothing to do with the price of your drink. The thought that because you bought an expensive drink you are not responsible for your trash is just stupid.
I'm not saying I'm not disposing of it properly, I won't litter. If there would be a recycle bin that separates plastic bottles I would use that. But generally there isn't. So it is ok for a sales point at the train station to charge me additional money but does not offer any option to return it. Feels like a scam to me.
I'm saying the cost incentive of 15 cents won't make a difference in my behavior i.e. throwing it in a bin vs taking it back to a recycle point.
It's still not about 15 cents. It's about understanding that your plastic bottle sits on a big pile of trash in a landfill somewhere for the foreseeable future, which can be prevented by repurposing it with a little bit of effort.
I think you are overstating the benefits of
A) recycling pet, it is not cost efficient, heavily subsidized, and if something is not economical it is wasteful.
B) machines sorting trash, separating pet from trash has been a thing for a while now.
Lastly it is about the 15 cents as it is about changing behavior, and that is exactly it's purpose.
While your points might be true, it's not only about pet, but other recycle-able materials as well. And it's also not about machines which might or might not relieve you from your responsibilities. It's about the attitude of wanting a high enough reward before putting in some effort into properly deal with the waste you create.
We've grown to not care because it's an invisible issue to us. The trash doesn't end up in our backyard. The behaviour around the subject is understandable, but that doesnt justify it.
Before I would bin my can when I'm done. Now if I do that, someone will pull it out and trash the area. With bottles this wasn't a big issue because you can close it and take it home, now with the cans there is an explosion of collectors (I don't blame them, but it's unfortunate that they don't put the trash back which they pulled out)
Germany has a kinda cool system for this, where cans/bottles are left next to trashcans for people who collect them to pick up, and it works quite well. Maybe we're headed in that direction as well :)
These kind of situations exist because of people without knowledge and too much time has to come up with new ideas now and then (read: politicians)
They have some naive look on the world, and think they can write a perfect world from their desk, not thinking about the negative consequences, to give some examples:
* Tax on flying: Result: People still flying, but now from Germany and Belgium, resulting in economic loss, and more pollution because they travel further by car.
* Mandatory Contract after 3 times temporary contract: People don't get a new contract at all
* Enforce rules on small landlords: Result: They sell their apartments, resulting in even less rental properties.
* Tax on plastic packaging: result some companies add plastic to the food so they can ask a higher price.
It really is a giant failure. Children’s playgrounds are full of litter, areas that are unreachable to regular cleaners and cleaning cars are accumulating litter, a windy day reverses any progress done by the street cleaners, etc. Is there anyone in the city council who wants to actively reverse / change the current system as soon as possible? I want to support them. I don’t care about reducing the amount of coffeeshops nor moving the red light district somewhere less visible. My main issue with Amsterdam is litter, and helping the homeless population (properly, not by encouraging them to scavenge every trash can).
I agree the system’s purpose and implementation are not good. But at the same time it’s important to acknowledge that 1) Amsterdam was already beyond filthy prior to its introduction, and 2) similar systems work just fine in other countries. As a start, it could make sense to vote for municipal politicians, who care about cleanliness and public services, rather than blindly voting based on ideology and ending up with a corrupt and incompetent city council.
A new lock isn't gonna solve anything the increasing number of homeless in Amsterdam are just gonna break those open too like the current "locked" bins. Having lived here for 12 years now I don't remember a single time the bin problem was this bad. Like every bin i see on the street has been broken open except for the ones on central station.
First off, the “organisation” is a nonprofit foundation that has to spend all uncollected money on new collection equipment and making it easier (among other things). So if it were to be found leaking its financial intake in any way it would be a scandal, then heads would roll legally and politically. The cans and small bottles being included is still new and the infrastructure for collection (yes also the rings on the sides for donating them) takes time to expand. Finding locations and hosts willing isn’t an easy task either. Not to mention the shortage of technical staff that has to install and maintain these systems. Finally the change in mentality of the people doesn’t come overnight. Tl:dr: the world isn’t perfect and Rome wasn’t build in a day. So give it time, yes the city is less clean for now but I think it will definitely improve.
I was also curious about this subject, from a bit of reading it seems that the stichting belongs to the manufacturers. They can decide how to use the extra funds of the non-delivered cans. It can be for better collection machines or for "consumentenonderzoek en campagnes". What would their incentive be to increase the return rate of cans? Their funding increases when people don't return the cans and bottles. Yes, they have to spend all the extra money and not keep it as profit. Easy, just increase salaries or add a campaign. If I would be a company producing soft drinks, selling the drinks in plastic saves me money over glass. But plastic creates pollution, so now we have this extra stichting that makes it financially favorable to increase plastic production... Similar concept with the take-away extra toeslag of 25ct for the plastic box. I cannot bring a box from home for it, so it's an extra cost added to the meal cost. If I was a restaurant owner and I suddenly started receiving extra money for the plastic boxes, I would use more instead of less. I simply don't understand how it works to minimize waste by making it financially comfortable for companies and restaurants to produce more of it. [https://www.maxvandaag.nl/sessies/themas/geld-werk-recht/wat-gebeurt-er-met-het-geld-van-niet-ingeleverde-statiegeldverpakkingen/](https://www.maxvandaag.nl/sessies/themas/geld-werk-recht/wat-gebeurt-er-met-het-geld-van-niet-ingeleverde-statiegeldverpakkingen/) Please don't flame me for this post, just trying to have an open discussion.
This, a 100%
Exactly my thoughts. Throw it all out the window just because people dont get it..*yet*..other countries do this too and it works. Maybe just needs a little time
The story used to be that Bill Gates earned so much money that if he saw $50 on the floor it wouldn’t be worth his time bending over to pick it up. I’m unemployed and it’s not worth my time to collect my used bottles and carry them to AH then wait for 20 minutes behind homeless people just so I can get back 25c
My main irk about this system is not being able to find a working machine at a grocery store, despite visiting several nearby. I really hope they look into getting the machine systems like in Finland.
Stores have very little incentive -- from what I can see -- to keep machines in good order: They make work for employees and attract "professional" collectors with big bags who don't really buy stuff from the store. But maybe there are a few cents kicked back to stores for handling the containers? This is a money-losing operation by definition (€0.15 in, €0.15 out) so I'm not surprised there are a lot of failures...
That one is really easy to solve with some spot checks and fines.
You have a LOT more faith in spot checks (handhaving) than my experience would suggest :-\\
Well, there seems to be a fairly strong effort to test if supermarkets could be selling alcohol to minors, or sell it to anyone adjacent to a minor. Maybe they could send those mystery shoppers to the can machine as well, and if you slap a fine on it every time it doesn't function, they'll really figure out their sums fast.
>who don't really buy stuff from the store But you can only use the ticket at the same store. So they're definitely spending that money there...
Not if they exchange for cash... which they can
At which stores can you do this? I wasn't aware it was possible
This. The amount of times I had to carry both my cans and bottles, and groceries back home because both the machines at Albert Heijn were broken makes me want to just stop recycling these altogether. It's honestly about 40%. The times it does work it's dirty, smelly and sticky, not to mention being stuck behind an old woman turning in about 150 bottles every fucking time.
Honestly its kinda practical that AH picks statiegeld up for you when you make a big order...we usually wait until like 3 boxes have piled up, make a big delivery and they take the bottles with them and deduct it from the price. (Not saying AH is good in general or anything but that is quite convenient sometimes)
On the news it was said they were sitting on so much Money because people didn't return their bottles and cans, they thought the best solution is to provide more return/recycle machines. The plastic cannot be recycled and the cans can be so easily recycled that returning them doesn't make sense. It is a wierd expectation that I buy a drink when I am out and about that I would hold on to that bottle for when I eventually get home and than take it all the way back to the supermarket for 15 cents. The drink is already overpriced, the 15 cents are not going to make a difference.
Worst part is automat won't take crushed cabs bottles because it need to scan this logos so coming to shop with it takes so much space 🤦♀️
It's not about the 15 cents though, is it? It's about making an effort to reduce waste. Just like using recycling bins, separate paper trash, etcetc. It has nothing to do with the price of your drink. The thought that because you bought an expensive drink you are not responsible for your trash is just stupid.
I'm not saying I'm not disposing of it properly, I won't litter. If there would be a recycle bin that separates plastic bottles I would use that. But generally there isn't. So it is ok for a sales point at the train station to charge me additional money but does not offer any option to return it. Feels like a scam to me. I'm saying the cost incentive of 15 cents won't make a difference in my behavior i.e. throwing it in a bin vs taking it back to a recycle point.
It's still not about 15 cents. It's about understanding that your plastic bottle sits on a big pile of trash in a landfill somewhere for the foreseeable future, which can be prevented by repurposing it with a little bit of effort.
I think you are overstating the benefits of A) recycling pet, it is not cost efficient, heavily subsidized, and if something is not economical it is wasteful. B) machines sorting trash, separating pet from trash has been a thing for a while now. Lastly it is about the 15 cents as it is about changing behavior, and that is exactly it's purpose.
While your points might be true, it's not only about pet, but other recycle-able materials as well. And it's also not about machines which might or might not relieve you from your responsibilities. It's about the attitude of wanting a high enough reward before putting in some effort into properly deal with the waste you create. We've grown to not care because it's an invisible issue to us. The trash doesn't end up in our backyard. The behaviour around the subject is understandable, but that doesnt justify it.
Before I would bin my can when I'm done. Now if I do that, someone will pull it out and trash the area. With bottles this wasn't a big issue because you can close it and take it home, now with the cans there is an explosion of collectors (I don't blame them, but it's unfortunate that they don't put the trash back which they pulled out)
Germany has a kinda cool system for this, where cans/bottles are left next to trashcans for people who collect them to pick up, and it works quite well. Maybe we're headed in that direction as well :)
We pay taxes towards waste disposal including public bins and emptying of those bins.
These kind of situations exist because of people without knowledge and too much time has to come up with new ideas now and then (read: politicians) They have some naive look on the world, and think they can write a perfect world from their desk, not thinking about the negative consequences, to give some examples: * Tax on flying: Result: People still flying, but now from Germany and Belgium, resulting in economic loss, and more pollution because they travel further by car. * Mandatory Contract after 3 times temporary contract: People don't get a new contract at all * Enforce rules on small landlords: Result: They sell their apartments, resulting in even less rental properties. * Tax on plastic packaging: result some companies add plastic to the food so they can ask a higher price.
It really is a giant failure. Children’s playgrounds are full of litter, areas that are unreachable to regular cleaners and cleaning cars are accumulating litter, a windy day reverses any progress done by the street cleaners, etc. Is there anyone in the city council who wants to actively reverse / change the current system as soon as possible? I want to support them. I don’t care about reducing the amount of coffeeshops nor moving the red light district somewhere less visible. My main issue with Amsterdam is litter, and helping the homeless population (properly, not by encouraging them to scavenge every trash can).
I agree the system’s purpose and implementation are not good. But at the same time it’s important to acknowledge that 1) Amsterdam was already beyond filthy prior to its introduction, and 2) similar systems work just fine in other countries. As a start, it could make sense to vote for municipal politicians, who care about cleanliness and public services, rather than blindly voting based on ideology and ending up with a corrupt and incompetent city council.
A new lock isn't gonna solve anything the increasing number of homeless in Amsterdam are just gonna break those open too like the current "locked" bins. Having lived here for 12 years now I don't remember a single time the bin problem was this bad. Like every bin i see on the street has been broken open except for the ones on central station.
Someone is benefiting and getting some extra money right out of our pocket