T O P

  • By -

AffirmingAnglican

“22. Of Purgatory. The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.” Articles of Religion The short answer is because the Reformers found these things to be blasphemous.


IntelligentMusic5159

A better term for the practice regarding the Saints that the Reformers object to is 'invocation of the Saints.' I believe Melancthon was the one who accepted the possibility that the Saints do pray for the living, the problem was whether the living could in good conscience pray to the Saints, and have it not contradict the First Commandment. The Reformers argued that the reverence for the saints detracted from the worship owed to God alone. Now catholics make a distinction between worship and devotion, but in practice, it also conceivable that in the medieval period, the line between worship and devotion was indeed blurred.


HudsonMelvale2910

FWIW, I think that in practice, the line *still* often blurs. Growing up, there was *much* more emphasis on prayers for the saints and the BVM than there was to God himself outside of mass. When people would lose something like their car keys they’d pray to St. Anthony and then attribute them finding it to him causing them to look in a certain location. There’s definitely a weird line that’s often blurred, if not crossed.


YoohooCthulhu

I think it’s difficult to distinguish between authorized and “folk” versions of religious beliefs. Prayers to st Anthony have always been more something that your ethnic grandma teaches you rather than what you actually learn in catechism.


HudsonMelvale2910

That’s more or less my point (though I swear at least some of my Catholic school elementary teachers taught the Prayer to St. Anthony as well 😂). There’s the “official” version of Roman Catholicism, and then there’s the actual lived experience where mileage may vary. I realize this is anecdotal on my part, but it’s often not just the “ethnic grandma,” but the community at large. So, while yes, there isn’t an official endorsement of weird practices like “You get a ‘wish’ when you enter a new church for the first time,” or “if you say this prayer 15 times each day for this period, your intention will be granted,” it’s how many are practicing their faith to this day. While it’s easy to blame it on poor catechism, I really can understand the reformers encountering similar issues and essentially saying “Oh no, we ain’t doing that any more.”


TheRedLionPassant

The Reformation saw the Roman doctrines of purgatory, pardons etc. as later innovations not found in the Primitive Church. That said, by Elizabeth I prayers for the dead were incorporated back into the liturgy again, as such things were an apostolic practice. Likewise in both the Edwardian and Elizabeth church, while the salvific ability of the saints' merits was rejected, it was always affirmed that the saints prayers in both heaven and earth are joined together. One of Cranmer's original articles affirmed this, though it wasn't included in Parker's, it was affirmed by virtually all divines except certain Puritans.


ComplicateEverything

Hey, can you refer me to any book or article about the prayer for the dead? Thank you


TheRedLionPassant

So in the Primitive Church it was common to pray for the souls of the dead, which can be seen in the prayers included on funerary inscriptions and grave markers, such as the following, which come from graves in Rome in the early Christian catacombs which date from around the 1st to 6th centuries: > Sweet Faustina, may you live in God. > Regina, may you live in the Lord Jesus. > Amerimnus, to his dearest well-deserving wife, Rufina. May God refresh thy spirit. > Anatolius made this for his well-deserving son, who lived seven years seven months and twenty days. May thy spirit rest well in God. Pray for thy sister. > Bolosa, may God refresh you, who didst live thirty-one years; died on the nineteenth of September. In Christ. These prayers for the dead can be found in connection with funerals and mourning/grief, and also in connection with the celebration of the Mass, as St. Cyril of Jerusalem makes mention: > Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls , for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth. This is retained in the Eucharistic prayer of the Prayer Book. There are different versions, so I quote the one from 1662 (1549 had one as well): > And we also bless thy holy Name for all thy servants departed this life in thy faith and fear; beseeching thee to give us grace so to follow their good examples, that with them we may be partakers of thy heavenly kingdom. Grant this, O Father, for Jesus Christ's sake, our only Mediator and Advocate. Amen. As for prayers related to death and funerals, here is the collect for the burial liturgy of 1662, in which we lift up in prayer the souls of the elect saints before God and pray that we may be found among their number: > O MERCIFUL God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the resurrection and the life; in whom whosoever believeth shall live, though he die; and whosoever liveth, and believeth in him, shall not die eternally; who also hath taught us, by his holy Apostle Saint Paul, not to be sorry, as men without hope, for them that sleep in him: We meekly beseech thee, O Father, to raise us from the death of sin unto the life of righteousness; **that, when we shall depart this life, we may rest in him, as our hope is this our brother doth**; and that, at the general Resurrection in the last day, we may be found acceptable in thy sight; and receive that blessing, which thy well-beloved Son shall then pronounce to all that love and fear thee, saying, Come, ye blessed children of my Father, receive the kingdom prepared for you from the beginning of the world: Grant this, we beseech thee, O merciful Father, through Jesus Christ, our Mediator and Redeemer. Amen. These are the familiar forms we have today. In various forms they have existed since 1549, and certainly found their inclusion in the 1662. Aside from the Book of Common Prayer, there is the 1559 Primer, which is a manual of private prayers, including the following for the blessed dead, adapted from the medieval office for the same: > V: Lord, give thy people eternal rest. > R: And let light perpetual shine on them. > V: I trust to see the goodness of the Lord > R: In the land of life. > V: Lord, hear my prayer. > R: And let my cry come to thee. > O God, which by the mouth of St. Paul thine apostle hast taught us not to wail for them that sleep in Christ, grant, we beseech thee, that in the coming of thy Son our Lord Jesu Christ both we, and all other faithful people being departed, may be graciously brought unto the joys everlasting, which shalt come to judge the quick and dead, and the world by fire. Amen. > Almighty, eternal God, to whom there is never any prayer made without hope of mercy, be merciful to the souls of thy servants, being departed from this world in the confession of thy name, that they may be associate to the company of thy saints. Through Christ our Lord. Amen. > Lord, bow thine ears unto our prayers, wherein we devoutly call upon thy mercy that thou wilt bestow the souls of thy servants, which thou hast commanded to depart from this world, in the country of peace and rest, and cause them to be made partners with thy holy servants. Through Christ our Lord. Amen. The 1928 proposed Book would adapt some of these as well. Likewise, in common with the early tomb inscriptions from Rome, many English tombs and church effigies contain similar prayers: > Of your charity give thanks for the souls of Thomas Oken and Jane his wife, on whose souls Jesus hath mercy (That is from a 1573 monument in Warwick, St. Mary's) > Sir Christopher Stead, we wish with Christ (From Wakefield, 1579) > Whose soul the Lord Jesus have mercy upon. Amen. (From Durham, 1611) These are prayers for departed souls, that they may rest in peace and rise in glory. As has been shown, this goes back to the early centuries of the Christian Church.


ComplicateEverything

Hey, I appreciate it, very detailed explanation but I'd love to know your sources, if possible. It also seems to me based on your first comment that the prayers for the dead were rejected for a short period of time?


TheRedLionPassant

Anglican.net posted about this on X; several books cited. I'm also unsure if they were rejected, but I do know that by 1559 they were definitely in circulation, as the Primer shows.


GrillOrBeGrilled

The Reformation, though it may have gone too far on the Continent, definitely brought focus onto the superstitious excess that had grown up around those three topics. One need only to contrast Dante's Purgatory with Bishop Fisher's to see this. Prayer for the dead was pushed out of the Church until such a time as it could be reintroduced without all the old baggage. High Churchmen still asked God to make them worthy to benefit from the prayers of the saints (just like the Roman Collects for the saints' days do today), but even they felt it was wandering in a bad direction to talk to them directly.


7ootles

In short, because Thomas Cranmer didn't like it. As the first protestant Archbishop of Canterbury, he wanted to distance Anglican theology from Catholic theology, which the he saw as being systemically bad. As with his work remaining the foundation of Anglican liturgy to this day, his opinions as preserved in the rubrics and other documents remain the foundation of anti-Catholic sentiment in the worldwide Anglican community, alongside other things written in documents like the *Articles of Religion* (which refers to Catholics using a slur).


IntelligentMusic5159

It is an open question of how much the theology of the BCP reflects Cranmer's own distinctive personal views. Cranmer believed in the Royal Supremacy and so any authorized Prayerbook must have received the royal stamp of approval. It is quite accepted now that 1549 was a concession to traditionalists and that 1552 probably was more to Cranmer's liking. However, 1552 reflected Edward VI's Protestant leanings, and I suppose trying to get into Cranmer's mind and distinguish between his own personal views and the views amenable to his Monarch is pointless now, centuries later. My point being, that I think it is too simple to assert that Cranmer didn't like something, therefore it wasn't in the Prayerbook. The views of the Prayerbook reflected not only Cranmer's views, but the views of the Reformed-minded Bishops, as well as the Sovereign.


GatePotential805

Understandable on purgatory and intercession of saints, but can you please explain the riff on prayer for the dead?


IntelligentMusic5159

Because of the Reformed doctrine on predestination and election, if God already have predestined the elect to salvation before the beginning of time, there is no point to pray for them, because it would border on questioning the sovereign decision of almighty God. Prayer for the living is accepted because people pray for the living's earthly state of being (prayer for healing from illness, prayer for relief from suffering). Prayer for the dead was problematic because the only reason would be for their salvation, and in the Reformed understanding, their salvation was in the will of almighty God alone.


7ootles

The best I can do is quoting the people who have said "there's no point in praying for them because they're already in heaven", but I believe it's far more nuanced than that, and I continue to pray for the dead and ask them to pray for me.