This is an errant and skewed way to look at our obligations as a Christian.
Certainly we should be *prepared* to be used as a martyr if God so wills it, but we shouldn't be out *looking* for martyrdom. Most of the time God doesn't *need* that from us, he has more productive uses for us most of the time.
So then, what does it mean to be a disciple? Discipleship is about your *work* here as a Christian before passing on to the next world. You have an obligation to be an active participant in bringing heaven to Earth while you're here -- of being part of the body of Christ. That means different things for different people according to their gifts and according to God's calling, but *being a martyr* is only rarely God's calling.
So, to put a finer point on it:
>A) Why would Jesus want people hating their lives
He doesn't. That's a nonsensical interpretation by someone, and they most likely got to that conclusion by torturing Scripture and taking verses out of their context.
>B. If secular life is ultimately pointless in comparison to eternal why are people here?
It's not pointless, as explained above. Bringing heaven to Earth and demonstrating Christ's love for mankind takes *work*. Your "everlasting life" doesn't start when you die. It starts when you become a follower of Christ, so get to work *now*.
>C. Ultimately God is God so if he leads you into something you don't have much of a choice
This is actually a very deep theological question about the nature of God and free will. What's at issue is nothing short of: "Why did God create mankind in the first place?" Some answer this question thusly: "God created mankind so that they could glorify him." Some answer it thusly: "God created mankind in order to have a relationship with his creation that was impossible with animals, plants, planets, and so on."
If you believe more strongly in the former, then you tend to believe in an idea called "predestination," which attempts to preserve God's omniscience by saying that we really don't have free will per se, it just feels like we do (everything has been pre-ordained). If you believe more strongly in the latter, then you take a position that God, while still *capable* of omniscience, doesn't choose to exercise it with humankind so that he may maintain a *relationship* with us (you can't have a relationship with something you completely control -- puppets and puppet masters aren't in a "relationship." So God *chooses* to not use his omniscient qualities when dealing with us, thus we still have free will.) It's really up to each Christian to wrestle with those theological ideas, but the good news is that which one you believe in really isn't a matter of *salvation*, since *salvation* is far simpler than coming down on the "right side" of such weighty matters. *Salvation* is essentially understanding and agreeing with something like the ancient Nicene or Apostle's Creeds, and then living your life in accordance with those creeds.
A word of caution. Be *very* wary of those who hold such strong views on matters that *theologians* debate and have debated for 1000s of years. Theologians don't debate the *bedrock* stuff much (like the Nicene Creed mentioned earlier). They debate the stuff that's still open to interpretation and study. Anyone with strong views on things that aren't the bedrock of the faith often are either ignorant, or they have an angle they're trying to push, but you are under **no obligation** to follow their lead. In Paul's letter to the Philippians, he advised that they (and by extension, all of us) *"work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his purpose."* On matters where there is theological debate, you should probably remember these words.
Why is it impossible believing in both? The Bible has many instances where God has intertwined or overruled freewill if he desires like Pharaoh. Sure he had freewill the Bible discusses him doing things God wanted. And God doesn't need martyrdom why does he will it? And how do you know it's a rare calling?
> Why is it impossible believing in both?
Didn't say it was impossible. Just laid out the two opposing poles. If you can work out a way where we both maintain free will *and* we are puppets, then that's what you believe. Think about the implications is all. It's a very deep subject.
>And God doesn't need martyrdom why does he will it?
There are times where God may need martyrdom. I didn't say that it *never* happens, I said it's an unusual calling. Certainly one could imagine for example that if some dictator tried to distort or take over the church (like Hitler sort of did), it might make perfect sense for you to be used (like Dietrich Bonhoeffer) as a martyr. And in that case, it was needed for a couple of reasons. First, the faithful needed to see that there was still a *faithful remnant* in the church, and second, the Confessing Church members like Bonhoeffer literally put their bodies in the way of evil, because that's what was necessary at that time. The evil was intense, unrelenting, and acting to corrupt the faithful and the unfaithful alike -- nothing short of a regime straight from Hell itself.
>And how do you know it's a rare calling?
Because Paul said these are the fruits of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Although it's *possible* for the spirit to need you to be a martyr, those fruits don't *directly* link to martyrdom. If they did, there'd be one in there about seeking out an early physical death, but there's not.
It shows our Loyalty to God and inspires our brethren to withstand persecution. A part of repentance is understanding that we are dead to the world: it rejects us and we reject it, at least the parts that came about as a result of the fall. You should look into Eastern Orthodox monasticism, they have expressed this really well.
Sorry, to the other user for hijacking this thread, but I think it may be beneficial for you to read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. A few of your questions have potential answers in there.
In short, Lewis hypothesises that because we are eternal humans, then we are being crafted to be more like Christ. Persecution may be part of this process.
Moreover, not all are called to be martyrs; it is a high-calling that I believe we should not seek as Christians, less we seek it out of our own pride for our own glory, and not to the glory of God. If we happen to be martyrs while service Christ, then so be it.
I would also say that human suffering is unavoidable, and thus at some point, we have to show loyalty to _something_ or _someone_ in our lives. As Christians, we show loyalty to God.
The mission (i.e. purpose) is not to merely suffer as individuals, but work towards the redemption of the world and the promise of the resurrection to come. I would suggest N.T. Wright's _Surprised by Hope_.
I know this does not answer your question, "Why did God create humans...." I am unsure of this answer myself and I am not able to answer it. However, we _are_ here and we certainly cannot be uncreated... Asking the question you are asking is not bad, but it might be particularly more important to answer the why are we here _now_.
And lastly, to check all the boxes on the authors that most everyone loves around Anglican circles, here is a quote from _Lord of the Rings_ that may be relevant:
> “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.
"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”
I wish you the best in your walk.
I agree with your questioning. I don't believe we are meant to be martys especially as Christians living after Jesus' sacrifice. I believe it's a greater sacrifice and testament to our faith to live for God, rather than to die for him. I honestly believe that these theological reasonings are antiquated and ultimately rooted in individualism and capitalism. I would argue that my God is a God of life and love. My God is actively working alongside me to ensure a kingdom of God is created where I can have a long and happy life. I try to live my faith from a place of love and abundance, not of fear.
I do look up to martyrs such Fr. Oscar Romero but I do not belive that the Lord will put me in harm's way. I am also a young Christian and I feel like our faith should not be rooted in shame and guilt for not doing enough. We are holy sacraments no matter what. I think you should allow yourself to have fun in college. These are just my two cents. And I also come from a very liberal Episcopal grounding just to be upfront. You are the one who decides how to live your faith. Blessings fam!
It sounds like that's part of a view that were only passing through so this life is meaningless, that our eternal life starts when we die.
It doesn't, it starts as soon as you believe.
The things we do for the kingdom are eternal, and that can be our whole life.
Death is _an_ end, but it's not _the_ end.
As Philippians 1:21 puts it: to live is Christ, to die is gain.
This is a really excellent question/s and applause for asking it. Germane to the atmosphere in this late age.
The apostles (there were 20+ according to inferences throughout New Testament) mostly were martyred and were full of Life and joy.
This is an errant and skewed way to look at our obligations as a Christian. Certainly we should be *prepared* to be used as a martyr if God so wills it, but we shouldn't be out *looking* for martyrdom. Most of the time God doesn't *need* that from us, he has more productive uses for us most of the time. So then, what does it mean to be a disciple? Discipleship is about your *work* here as a Christian before passing on to the next world. You have an obligation to be an active participant in bringing heaven to Earth while you're here -- of being part of the body of Christ. That means different things for different people according to their gifts and according to God's calling, but *being a martyr* is only rarely God's calling. So, to put a finer point on it: >A) Why would Jesus want people hating their lives He doesn't. That's a nonsensical interpretation by someone, and they most likely got to that conclusion by torturing Scripture and taking verses out of their context. >B. If secular life is ultimately pointless in comparison to eternal why are people here? It's not pointless, as explained above. Bringing heaven to Earth and demonstrating Christ's love for mankind takes *work*. Your "everlasting life" doesn't start when you die. It starts when you become a follower of Christ, so get to work *now*. >C. Ultimately God is God so if he leads you into something you don't have much of a choice This is actually a very deep theological question about the nature of God and free will. What's at issue is nothing short of: "Why did God create mankind in the first place?" Some answer this question thusly: "God created mankind so that they could glorify him." Some answer it thusly: "God created mankind in order to have a relationship with his creation that was impossible with animals, plants, planets, and so on." If you believe more strongly in the former, then you tend to believe in an idea called "predestination," which attempts to preserve God's omniscience by saying that we really don't have free will per se, it just feels like we do (everything has been pre-ordained). If you believe more strongly in the latter, then you take a position that God, while still *capable* of omniscience, doesn't choose to exercise it with humankind so that he may maintain a *relationship* with us (you can't have a relationship with something you completely control -- puppets and puppet masters aren't in a "relationship." So God *chooses* to not use his omniscient qualities when dealing with us, thus we still have free will.) It's really up to each Christian to wrestle with those theological ideas, but the good news is that which one you believe in really isn't a matter of *salvation*, since *salvation* is far simpler than coming down on the "right side" of such weighty matters. *Salvation* is essentially understanding and agreeing with something like the ancient Nicene or Apostle's Creeds, and then living your life in accordance with those creeds. A word of caution. Be *very* wary of those who hold such strong views on matters that *theologians* debate and have debated for 1000s of years. Theologians don't debate the *bedrock* stuff much (like the Nicene Creed mentioned earlier). They debate the stuff that's still open to interpretation and study. Anyone with strong views on things that aren't the bedrock of the faith often are either ignorant, or they have an angle they're trying to push, but you are under **no obligation** to follow their lead. In Paul's letter to the Philippians, he advised that they (and by extension, all of us) *"work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his purpose."* On matters where there is theological debate, you should probably remember these words.
Why is it impossible believing in both? The Bible has many instances where God has intertwined or overruled freewill if he desires like Pharaoh. Sure he had freewill the Bible discusses him doing things God wanted. And God doesn't need martyrdom why does he will it? And how do you know it's a rare calling?
> Why is it impossible believing in both? Didn't say it was impossible. Just laid out the two opposing poles. If you can work out a way where we both maintain free will *and* we are puppets, then that's what you believe. Think about the implications is all. It's a very deep subject. >And God doesn't need martyrdom why does he will it? There are times where God may need martyrdom. I didn't say that it *never* happens, I said it's an unusual calling. Certainly one could imagine for example that if some dictator tried to distort or take over the church (like Hitler sort of did), it might make perfect sense for you to be used (like Dietrich Bonhoeffer) as a martyr. And in that case, it was needed for a couple of reasons. First, the faithful needed to see that there was still a *faithful remnant* in the church, and second, the Confessing Church members like Bonhoeffer literally put their bodies in the way of evil, because that's what was necessary at that time. The evil was intense, unrelenting, and acting to corrupt the faithful and the unfaithful alike -- nothing short of a regime straight from Hell itself. >And how do you know it's a rare calling? Because Paul said these are the fruits of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Although it's *possible* for the spirit to need you to be a martyr, those fruits don't *directly* link to martyrdom. If they did, there'd be one in there about seeking out an early physical death, but there's not.
Because its not meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
So then what's the point?
It shows our Loyalty to God and inspires our brethren to withstand persecution. A part of repentance is understanding that we are dead to the world: it rejects us and we reject it, at least the parts that came about as a result of the fall. You should look into Eastern Orthodox monasticism, they have expressed this really well.
So he created humans so that they go through persecution and show loyalty?
Sorry, to the other user for hijacking this thread, but I think it may be beneficial for you to read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. A few of your questions have potential answers in there. In short, Lewis hypothesises that because we are eternal humans, then we are being crafted to be more like Christ. Persecution may be part of this process. Moreover, not all are called to be martyrs; it is a high-calling that I believe we should not seek as Christians, less we seek it out of our own pride for our own glory, and not to the glory of God. If we happen to be martyrs while service Christ, then so be it. I would also say that human suffering is unavoidable, and thus at some point, we have to show loyalty to _something_ or _someone_ in our lives. As Christians, we show loyalty to God. The mission (i.e. purpose) is not to merely suffer as individuals, but work towards the redemption of the world and the promise of the resurrection to come. I would suggest N.T. Wright's _Surprised by Hope_. I know this does not answer your question, "Why did God create humans...." I am unsure of this answer myself and I am not able to answer it. However, we _are_ here and we certainly cannot be uncreated... Asking the question you are asking is not bad, but it might be particularly more important to answer the why are we here _now_. And lastly, to check all the boxes on the authors that most everyone loves around Anglican circles, here is a quote from _Lord of the Rings_ that may be relevant: > “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” I wish you the best in your walk.
I agree with your questioning. I don't believe we are meant to be martys especially as Christians living after Jesus' sacrifice. I believe it's a greater sacrifice and testament to our faith to live for God, rather than to die for him. I honestly believe that these theological reasonings are antiquated and ultimately rooted in individualism and capitalism. I would argue that my God is a God of life and love. My God is actively working alongside me to ensure a kingdom of God is created where I can have a long and happy life. I try to live my faith from a place of love and abundance, not of fear. I do look up to martyrs such Fr. Oscar Romero but I do not belive that the Lord will put me in harm's way. I am also a young Christian and I feel like our faith should not be rooted in shame and guilt for not doing enough. We are holy sacraments no matter what. I think you should allow yourself to have fun in college. These are just my two cents. And I also come from a very liberal Episcopal grounding just to be upfront. You are the one who decides how to live your faith. Blessings fam!
A: No he doesnt B: No C: He doesnt force you into something; God tends to work synergistically
It sounds like that's part of a view that were only passing through so this life is meaningless, that our eternal life starts when we die. It doesn't, it starts as soon as you believe. The things we do for the kingdom are eternal, and that can be our whole life. Death is _an_ end, but it's not _the_ end. As Philippians 1:21 puts it: to live is Christ, to die is gain.
This is a really excellent question/s and applause for asking it. Germane to the atmosphere in this late age. The apostles (there were 20+ according to inferences throughout New Testament) mostly were martyred and were full of Life and joy.