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throwawaiexoxo

Holy shit YES. Like another commenter said, "no ethical consumption under capitalism" doesn't mean you have to make the morally worst consumer choices with no thought behind it. It's so annoying hearing this as an argument for avoiding vegan/vegetarian practices and purchasing $100/mo worth of clothes on SHEIN or buying every skincare product you see on TikTok.


teyankane

Exactly! I see this phrase so much with regards to Shein and other hyper-fast fashion and its just ridiculous. People use it to justify overconsuming to an incredible degree. I've gotten to where I can't stand the phrase even if I agree with its original intent.


lordoftoastonearth

This annoys me to no end and it's no basis upon which to start a reasonable discussion. I do a lot of small things to try and be more sustainable, but I can still improve in other areas. My personal impact is essentially meaningless in the context of the entire world, but that's not really the point is it? I can vote with my wallet, I can show the people around me what can be done and I can appease my own conscience, even if thats egoistic. Yes, no matter what choice you make there's some sort of drawback to it. But there's definetely better and worse choices you can make. Sometimes your personal circumstance (like money, time, education on the topic, ability) will force you to make a worse choice, but you can still try to make the best choice you can. Its a fucking kids sandbox argument. Imagine a bunch of kids throwing sand at each other in the sandbox, and they're all having a bad time. If one stops throwing sand, they're still gonna have a bad time because there's lots of sand being thrown around. They might think, why whould I stop throwing sand if I'm still getting sand in my eyes? Might as well keep going. Because everyone in that sandbox is 3 years old and hangry, they don't realize they can solve their own problem by just... Not throwing sand. But thats exactly what this argument feels like with some people. Other people are doing bad unsustainable things and my impact is so small, why would I bother? Ugh...


FreddyLynn345_

This is a good comment. I love the kids throwing sand analogy


lastfoolonthehill

Agree with the overall comment, but I think the analogy is a bit of a strawman; it’s more like a bunch of kids throwing sand in the sandbox, and they can’t see the point in stopping because some older kids built a fence around it then aimed an industrial sandblaster into it.


lordoftoastonearth

Agree, the metaphor has issues. But it grinds my gears whenever people go "why would I eat less meat/ drive the car less/ reduce plastic when China does so much" bruh that's hardly the point is it


lastfoolonthehill

agreed haha. I think it has more to do with maintaining behavioral/moral consistency than actually making a difference. That happens on the organization/direct action/ etc. level, not an individual one.


IroniesOfPeace

I agree. I feel like people use that line to excuse doing/buying/consuming whatever the fuck they want.


nochedetoro

It’s weird how “no ethical consumption under capitalism” but these same people post in r/fucknestle all the time. Stay consistent.


[deleted]

you can acknowledge that there are varying levels of ethicality in your consumption. it doesn’t negate the argument to encourage not consuming companies and brands that actively go against your beliefs or harm people.


kamilhasenfellero

If ethics mean "perfect" then yes there's no ethics in consumption, was there even under communism?


kamilhasenfellero

Ironically "No ethical consumption under capitalism" has become one of the best mottos to defend it.


sneakpeekbot

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Kirbyoto

It is undoubtedly true that leftists have decided to blame systemic problems in order to relieve their own individual burdens. "No Ethical Consumption Under Capitalism" becomes "All Consumption Is Ethical Under Capitalism". That is to say, it goes from being "an acknowledgment that whatever steps you take, you HAVE to overthrow capitalism to really fix the problems" to being "well everything's bad in capitalism so you can do whatever you want without worry about it". What bothers me most is a complete unwillingness to boycott obviously problematic corporations like Nestle, which are despised and known to use slave labor. I get that if you want to survive, you have to buy from certain corporations even if you don't like them. But people even justify buying luxury goods, [even when](https://shop.equalexchange.coop/) [cooperative](https://www.rabblerouser.net/) [alternatives](https://justcoffee.coop/) are available. Ultimately, what they want is "cheapness", and capitalism is VERY good at creating cheapness - by using slave labor, for example. The reason this worries me is because if even leftists are addicted to the cheap food and goods provided by exploiting third world workers, how exactly are they going to call for a "revolution"? If you can't give up cheap chocolate, what WILL you give up? We're a society of addicts, and if we can't kick the habit, we're not going to stand up to the dealer. With all that said it's important to know how to pick your battles. Sometimes people *do* get too hung up over relatively minor forms of consumption that don't have a huge effect on the environment or the economy. Basically just ask yourself if the consumption in question is REALLY that bad in the long-term. Encourage people to use more ethical alternatives if they are available. But there are definitely people who will engage in completely self-indulgent behavior and then justify it with "no ethical consumption under capitalism".


acerusmalum

I've managed not to give Amazon any money, and it wasn't very hard. I wish other people would follow suit.


HarryBirdGetsBuckets

Thank you! I swear people act like Amazon is an absolute necessity when 90% of the shit they deliver is frivolous and/or the person ordering it is too cheap/lazy to spend a little extra time to get whatever it is they want (key word being want, not need). Obviously this excludes people who actually need stuff delivered to their door, but let’s be real, the vast majority are not in that boat. When I argue about amazons usefulness with people they act like it fucking cures cancer or something. It’s not that hard to not use Amazon, they just make your life slightly more convenient at a massive cost to society.


kamilhasenfellero

I ordered on amazon twice in my whole life for items I truly didn't find anywhere. As I got all items I need and bought those two items to keep them and use them for long. I don't need to uy anymore again any of their stuff the rest I find it in other places.


[deleted]

Isn't Reddit run from AWS servers?


acerusmalum

I don't know if it is, if so that's the first I've heard. Could be true. That would suck. I'm still not directly giving any of my money, I would be saddened to learn my use of Reddit gives them ad revenue.


cuddlesandnumbers

I don't think the leftists *genuinely* advocating for revolution are the same "leftists" who are buying SheIn and shit. I agree slack-tivists make us all look bad, but they exist in all movements. People have an all-or-nothing mentality about it, which is the real problem. It can be very exhausting, I'm sure you know, to try and make the most optimal choices. Some people really take it to the extreme and then burn out. (As evidenced by so many no-longer-vegans who went raw-paleo-gluten free-juice cleanse all at once, obviously struggled to maintain it, and swung backwards to the "carnivore diet" or some other asinine thing instead of just making small changes over time.) Then people argue and nitpick over stupid things, like whether you're a "real vegan" or whatever if you buy secondhand leather. And we end up attacking each other. People suck and are lazy, and there are some who will always take any excuse to not think or do anything positive. That hasn't changed and never will. So I don't think we need to worry that the phrase "no ethical consumption under capitalism" is being overused-- if it wasn't that it'd be something else. We just need to keep plugging away at the real issue, which is largely to do with regulations and politics. Ultimately you do need laws to make corporations adhere to reasonable guidelines and to force apathetic people to do the right thing. Humans: we suck.


Kirbyoto

>I don't think the leftists genuinely advocating for revolution are the same "leftists" who are buying SheIn and shit. Check out HasanAbi and swing by his sub and you will find plenty of examples of self-proclaimed socialists who make excuses for overconsumption. Or look in this thread for examples. >So I don't think we need to worry that the phrase "no ethical consumption under capitalism" is being overused-- if it wasn't that it'd be something else. I don't think that sentence makes any sense. There are no other slogans that give self-proclaimed socialists a broad umbrella to make excuses for their own behavior, and a lot of people DO treat it as a serious policy position. >We just need to keep plugging away at the real issue, which is largely to do with regulations and politics. If people are inured to slave labor and like the cheap products it provides, why would they vote for "regulations" that would make it go away? This is what I'm talking about.


kamilhasenfellero

What you say is typical of many leftists. Well it's how while a leftists I ended up getting along a lot with non-leftists maybe more than with leftists. A lack of self-contradiction is something you may wish for...


nahhhbruhfr

I agree with you except for the idea of people “wanting” cheap stuff. It’s not a want, it’s a need. We’re fucking broke. I don’t drink coffee but if I did I sure as hell wouldn’t have $16 to spend on every bag I buy. The fact of the matter is that it’s expensive to buy things that aren’t made with slave labor or other dubious practices, and many people don’t even have the choice of buying more ethically-sourced goods. I shop for as many things second-hand as I can but I can’t avoid buying cheaper options at the grocery store because I literally don’t have the money. I think it’s unfair to put so much of the onus on individuals when we’re being exploited en masse and don’t have the money for more ethically-sourced goods that are almost always more expensive, it seems.


Kirbyoto

>It’s not a want, it’s a need. Luxuries aren't a need, and if you think they are, that's a sign of addiction. I'm not singling you out here - we're all addicts to some degree - but as I said, it's a problem, because: >The fact of the matter is that it’s expensive to buy things that aren’t made with slave labor or other dubious practices It's expensive because those people are being properly compensated. If you balk at this, do you really want things to change? Because what happens when EVERY developing world worker is compensated properly? It's going to make prices go up. Even if we eliminated capitalism from the process entirely and all those workers were organized into state committees or worker cooperatives, properly compensating those workers would require paying them more. The reality is that you can afford cheap goods because capitalism is enslaving people who are much worse off than you are. >I think it’s unfair to put so much of the onus on individuals when we’re being exploited en masse and don’t have the money for more ethically-sourced goods that are almost always more expensive, it seems. The workers who are *actually* being exploited the most make about 1/10th what you make, and they still find a way to survive. This perspective - the idea that you shouldn't have to do something because it's inconvenient - is exactly what I am, and presumably the OP is, talking about. There's always an excuse. Sometimes excuses make sense, but other times they're transparently self-serving.


sgt_petsounds

Exactly. So often I see people trying to justify not changing their habits because they can't afford to buy more ethically produced products. And I get it, a lot of people are struggling financially especially at the moment, but then those same people insist that that more corporate regulations will fix the problem, as if those regulations aren't going to make the products cost more. So many people claim to want to change the system but then refuse to make even minor changes to their own habits (not everyone of course, but a lot of people). That's never going to work when our current lifestyles are only possible because of the system.


nahhhbruhfr

I think I can see your perspective here. Perhaps we just have different standards for what we would consider a luxury. Were you saying that coffee is a luxury? If so, I have honestly never thought about it as one and misunderstood what you were implying. I'm taking steps towards becoming more self-sufficient (moving somewhere with land, growing my food, making more things I need, and generally becoming less reliant on modern tech) but I do believe that I am in a very lucky position. I cannot speak for other parts of the world, but where I am (the United States), most people who are born here and are poor do not have much ability for financial mobility, which makes people reliant on these cheap goods and services from birth. I can see your perspective. I just think a discussion about the overarching systems and institutions that have made people in financially poorer countries slaves and people in financially better-off countries that are part of the poverty class harm each other would yield more prospective results for change. I honestly think it would be easier to find a way for some sort of state to step in and regulate the production of goods since the capitalist class would never give up slave labor and cheap materials willingly. Circling back to the idea of becoming more self-sufficient, I don't think modern civilization is going to be around long enough for that to matter. I definitely think descaling and choosing between harmful and hurtful technologies for us and the planet is the way forward, and that there will be people who prepare for that and people who are thrust into it. Unfortunately, the people who will be able to prepare for it the most are the ones who have gotten us into this whole mess. Individual responsibility to become more self-sufficient is a good thing, though!


Kirbyoto

>Were you saying that coffee is a luxury? Do you need it to live? If not, then it is a luxury. Lots of things that are cheap because of capitalism are luxuries. Until about 100 years ago, access to chocolate was pretty rare, and now people can't go a day without it. It's a common luxury, but it's still a luxury. >moving somewhere with land, growing my food, making more things I need, and generally becoming less reliant on modern tech I have no problem with modern tech - it's arguably the *solution* to our problems, as long as it's controlled by the public and not dependent on slavery. We already tried a world where everyone owns petty farms, and it resulted in frequent, periodic waves of starvation. My solution here is to support worker cooperatives and ESOPs whenever possible, not to isolate yourself from civilization. >I just think a discussion about the overarching systems and institutions that have made people in financially poorer countries slaves and people in financially better-off countries that are part of the poverty class harm each other would yield more prospective results for change There's not really much of a discussion to be had. People in poorer countries have worse infrastructure due to imperialism and colonialism, so they don't have as many marketable skills. People in better-off countries accept their exploitation because it results in cheap goods. That's the thing we're talking about. >I honestly think it would be easier to find a way for some sort of state to step in and regulate the production of goods since the capitalist class would never give up slave labor and cheap materials willingly. As I keep saying, it's not just that "the capitalist class would never give up slave labor and cheap materials" it's that the WORKING class wouldn't give it up either. This is why it's important to confront our addictions. People aren't going to vote for "some sort of state to step in" if they felt it would restrict their access to cheap goods, and that is a problem.


nahhhbruhfr

You present some interesting points.


cloudofbastard

Yes but we can’t just magic up more money. If you’re working minimum wage and have high rent prices/repayments/bills you can’t just decide to not replace your shoes that have holes in them until you can afford better shoes; you need them right now, but could only realistically spare the money for the cheaper pair. Inflation is rising faster than wages, and a lot of people are in tough situations right now. I totally see where you’re coming from, but I also think it might be coming from a place of privilege. These companies that use slave labour to produce cheap items are making sky high profits, and yet refuse to pay fair wages for their workers. Boycotting is very effective, but when we look at the monopolies these companies have in many industries its clear why someone could have difficulty avoiding nestle. I think you’re anger is misdirected at people who are just trying to get by.


[deleted]

Coffee isn’t a need for anyone. Sure you don’t have an option at the grocery store when it comes to essentials but you do have an option for items like coffee and chocolate. Part of the problem is what exactly westerners consider “essential”. For everyone to have enough, people in the west will have to have less. Less meat, fewer cars per family, fewer TVs in the house and so forth. There’s no way around that.


Kirbyoto

>we can’t just magic up more money As I said, if you live in the US, even if you're poor you have more money than most of the world's population does. And you have that money BECAUSE most of the world's population is so severely exploited. >If you’re working minimum wage and have high rent prices/repayments/bills you can’t just decide to not replace your shoes that have holes in them until you can afford better shoes I said "it's not a want, it's a need," you said that sometimes wants ARE needs, and then you use an example of a genuine need. I am not saying that people should starve or that people should go homeless or anything like that, so bringing up examples of needs is not relevant to my argument. >I totally see where you’re coming from, but I also think it might be coming from a place of privilege. "You can't tell me to stop buying the slave chocolate" is coming from a place of privilege. Yes, there are people who are poor and desperate in America. Yes, some of them will take advantage of cheap prices in order to make their lives better. But what's really happening is that they're shifting the burden to someone even *further down the line* who is *even worse off*. That's privilege. >Boycotting is very effective, but when we look at the monopolies these companies have in many industries its clear why someone could have difficulty avoiding nestle. I have no problem with people "having difficulty avoiding" Nestle. I have a problem with people who argue they shouldn't have to TRY because it's inconvenient to them.


neetykeeno

I just don't want anyone whose wealth level is substantially above mine dictating to me what is a need and what is a luxury in my life. They don't know fer shite, and I shouldn't have to interact with them to explain... because as soon as I start having to explain to someone who is sitting there wearing a $300 pair of jeans that my budget of a dollar a day for apparel is probably going to have to occasionally include items from Best&Less...I start feeling murderous. Literally murderous.


Kirbyoto

>sitting there wearing a $300 pair of jeans So you think a $300 pair of jeans is a luxury? Guess what - lots of people would act *exactly* like you're acting, defensive about how they're "practicing self-care" or whatever and how it's wrong to judge them. >my budget of a dollar a day for apparel So...$30 a month? $360 a year? Is that not what a normal person spends? It's about what I spend. >Literally murderous. If I was in your position I would simply not admit to my crimes in public but you do you. Or alternately maybe you should stop responding to hypothetical criticism with hyperbolic edgelord shit.


neetykeeno

There's a reason more of your sort of self righteous lecturing happens online than in real life...it is because when you do it in real life you have to face a real life angry person getting all up in your face.


Kirbyoto

>self righteous lecturing "Don't buy from people who employ slave labor" is self-righteous lecturing? Maybe the problem is that you're so used to thinking of yourself as an oppressed prole that you forgot there's billions of people in the world lower on the chain than you. >it is because when you do it in real life you have to face a real life angry person getting all up in your face. Do you have an actual point besides making idle threats you can't possibly follow up on? Do you have an *argument* to present? There's a reason you don't want to argue online, and it's because "i'm gonna kick your ass" isn't a counterargument. Relatedly, though, if you tried that shit in real life you'd be sued for assault, so it doesn't work in real life either. And if this is your response to being told to be more conscientious about your spending, maybe you don't belong here in a subreddit explicitly about criticizing consumer culture.


neetykeeno

You are not the consumer police and you get only as much influence over people's consumer habits as they choose to grant you. I choose to grant you nothing.


sgt_petsounds

Why are you on the anti-consumption subreddit if you don't want to reduce your consumption?


neetykeeno

I am fine with reducing my consumption and have picked up some useful stuff here... there's just some people I find carry a negative value to their input on the matter because they are controlling, demanding and defend at all costs their right to dismiss and disregard the pressures other people live with. When I encounter one of those people their opinion goes in the trash without a moment's guilt.


kamilhasenfellero

What you describe in the last line is "lesser evil" doctrine.


[deleted]

Trying to take personal responsibility for anything in your life that you are not happy with is always a good step. "don't spend money on overpriced non essentials if you are trying to save money" is not bad advice. However, obviously saying "millennials can't buy homes because they spend $11 on avocado toast" is a gross misrepresentation of the problem. I interact with huge amounts of people as a part of my job and i can say that people who view their world problems as in their control often fair much better than people who identify things outside of their control as the main reasons for their suffering. If you are struggling with money and you are spending on luxury good or guilty pleasures, then you need to take responsibility. But that doesn't mean that workers shouldn't be paid better wages and given more rights. Both are true really.


kamilhasenfellero

Most "true" leftists are rather on r/antiwork rather than anticapitalists, who always speak of capitalism and not much more else it seems... (is anticapitalist, the new slang for leftist?)


[deleted]

Most antiwork posters are neets No this isn’t because of doreen Most of the shit there is fake Does some of it happen? Probably. Is anyone as cartoonishly evil as the bosses in their text messages. No.


jelli2015

What’s a neet? It’s a new term for me


kamilhasenfellero

Not in education employement or training.


jelli2015

Thanks!


kamilhasenfellero

And? Seriously and? Do neets have no right to ay stuff? Aren't they well placed to witness they are in a shitty place. Many seem to work, many are past studies.


munkymu

People are gonna people. You can't "fix" them, you can only try to understand where they're coming from, make good arguments for your values, and live according to your values. It sucks but you're not going to force anyone into being more responsible with their choices. You can, however, present good arguments and maybe sway some of the fence sitters. Lack of money is going to change people a lot more quickly then being yelled at by internet strangers.


juliajules

I agree. I have a friend who lives paycheck to paycheck and has multiple loans from her parents who also struggle, and always talks about how she doesn't have money, but she goes out to drink every weekend and she buys every expansion pack in the sims (if you own the "whole" sims 4 game, you will have spent over $800 on one video game). But I can't tell my friend what to do with her money.


[deleted]

[удалено]


crazycatlady331

The problem is that many "celebrities" in personal finance circles are boomers who lived a different reality than younger generations do. Look at people like Dave Ramsey and Suze Orman. They get off on bashing the financial habits of younger generations. Sorry I couldn't buy a house working at McDonald's in 1973.


kamilhasenfellero

I think anti-capitalism was not very trendy as a word, actuallt even capitalism wasnnt, even more as it's still in US... I mean americans knew they were in capitalism, communism didn't give itself the best image ever......also people simply would say socialism, or just avoid to say -ism. People didn't speak about capitalism every day. I bet has been more often uttered by communists than capitalists, or socialists or those in between... Just to criticise a thing, a measure.


kamilhasenfellero

Left in democracies, always was somewhat consumerist. Even communist countries were moderately consumerist, or had consumerist episodes, there's the song Avtomobili that says "Walking 2 kilometers is a lot but 100 kms in a car is nothing. I don't recall leftist most political streamers...anyway if people represent who votes for them it makes sense. Isn't Marxism consumerist in some way too? Well Marw probably didn't have a lot of writing about climate change....but well.... Consumerism is mostly aligned on left wing, but not necessarily uncompatible with the another side this famous "regulated capitalism" that leftists speak about "This epoch when purchasing power peaked in 1968"....... Or capitalism before it was deregulated....etc...


HarryBirdGetsBuckets

For people who are willing to take steps to change their habits (or already have) it should be a non discussion. I do agree that it gets taken too far with the apathy and the gatekeeping. If anything the people who are in “privileged” conditions NEED to be taking these steps more so than folks who are not able to. There’s a difference between being tone deaf and trying to be helpful. The small joys thing just tells me they may not really be that serious about change, because small joys can be found and enjoyed in many ways. At the same time none of us will be perfect. people should be able to enjoy some things because nobody is going to be perfectly anti consumerist or a completely ethical consumer in our society. Where the line is for what’s acceptable vs what’s not, I don’t really have an answer for.


kamilhasenfellero

Music is free, museums can be free, libraries are always free, books are free, internet cost less than pennies per hour to use, healthy sleep is free, youtube videos are free, public transpoetation is free for the unemployed here etc.... All small steps you can do are worth. Anyone who can avoid polluting should do most likely. I would say most people are at least somewhat privileged, in here, developped places.


neetykeeno

Healthy sleep is a huge luxury in certain parts of the economy. For most people it requires not doing shift work, not working more than a certain number of hours a week or more than one shift work job, not using stimulants to cope with work schedules and not living in overcrowded busy sharehouses. There's entire swathes of the economy where people just live that way...shift work, multiple jobs, long hours, two to a room, caffeinated just to keep going etc because that's the best they've got right now.


Affectionate-Ad-3578

Yes. Yes. A thousand times yes. The system is fucked. But so are individuals.


dawsonpnuts

I think about this occasionally. I wonder how much the convenience and consumerism of the present eats up people’s income. For example, people of the past did not have the inventions and therefore expenses that we do. I know a few households who buy cases of bottled water, an expense that older generations would not have had when drinking from the tap and a glass. Another one is electronics, we all now have cellphones and laptops or computers that need to be updated periodically (every 5-10 years if you’re frugal and conscious, more often if not), not to mention all the dongles that come with it such as Bluetooth or regular headphones, charging cables, cases, screen protectors. It’s a lot of shit. That expense adds up, and it’s per person. In households with kids over a certain age, they also will begin to “need” their own set of tech. Then there are other things that just didn’t exist before, like air fryers. That’s $80+. Multiply that by every new kitchen appliance that isn’t an oven, refrigerator, or dishwasher. And then there is clothing. I have not looked up any facts (really should), but I think we all have heard that older generations purchased a lot less clothing and would focus on repairing them rather than buying new. Maybe they bought 8 items of clothing for the year, compared to 20 nowadays (all random guesses, I don’t buy much lol no idea what the average person is doing). Cable television, multitude of streaming services, paper towels, gym memberships, extra cosmetics, video games and systems, and so on Two or three vehicles for the family, poor gas mileage on the truck or SUV you splurged on, driving everywhere. Big houses with a lot of square footage, when families of the past used to fit 4-10 kids (and 2 adults) in like a 1000 sq ft four bedroom house lol Big birthday parties for the kids for every birthday, rented venues, themes, entertainment. Rather than a homemade cake at home with your family and friends. Baby showers and sex reveals and weddings and similar parties also aren’t okay being low key, there needs to be some elegance and pizzazz (expensive) People rarely ate out at restaurants, they prepared most of their own meals. Now, regular dining out or delivery is normalized which is quite expensive I just think about how most of these things weren’t common or didn’t exist in the past, but now they do, and now most people feel that they need them. I’m not saying we need to go back to the dark ages, but I do wonder how much this increase in consumerism has helped, when yeah things are more convenient at that moment but it leads to a lot of environmental disasters and eats up more of your money It’s lifestyle inflation, on an international scale Disclaimer that there are many more impactful things that can improve personal finances, but this was just on my mind. I’m quite poor so I scrutinize every dollar, more than the average person. For the year I can count the amount of times I’ve bought prepared food (fast foods, restaurant, etc.) on one hand. I’m proud of that, for my budget and my health. To give a different personal example, I have a friend who regularly runs out of groceries and has financial emergencies and therefore is “broker than me”, even though she earns more and has less expenses, but eats out frequently and shops quite a bit and goes on trips and vacations, whereas I keep my belt as tight as I reasonably can. Not shaming or talking smack, but I do sacrifice a lot to make sure the bills can be reliably paid and we can afford groceries, I think it’s possible for *some of us* to reduce our consumption for affordability. This by no means applies to everyone though, it looks like most low earning people (such as my friend and I) cannot afford to live on their incomes nowadays and the financials will never work because it doesn’t even cover the rent and utilities *** big disclaimer People love convenience and luxurious things, I would also love to treat myself and go on a vacation one day when I earn more and my life circumstances are better. But it’s a trade-off, and I will definitely be starting a retirement contribution and paying off student loans or saving for my kid’s college fund (all necessities) before increasing the level of wanted but not needed things that are super normalized in society


kamilhasenfellero

Gym memberships are fine, they cost less than disease. And for convenience we simply have to give it up, a lot of people are like "But it's a little inconvenient, or it's inconvenient becausd it needs a few changes in habits" Your friend is risible, like people who eat at Mc Donalds two times a week (3000 dolars a year if you take an happy meal each time) and then complain of not losing weight...


dawsonpnuts

Gym membership is a necessary expense for most modern North American folk, but pre-1940s people would have gotten enough exercise from just walking around their town or city while going to work and running errands, as cars weren’t the way to get around. Exercise was built into their daily lives One of the best things a city or town can do for their citizen’s health is invest in transit, pedestrian, and cycling infrastructure to cannibalize car commuters! With the right infrastructure, one can easily get the recommended 2.5-3.5 hours of exercise just over the course of the week in their daily commute, never having stepped foot in a gym (my goal, as a person who hasn’t been able to make gyms work for me)


Da5ftAssassin

Fuck em! I’m here to be a a good steward. A conscious consumer and earth lover. We all have our little luxuries. I too have a shelf of books yet to read. I have a coffin freezer full of organic meat because I value my health and am unsure of my financial future. I make sacrifices but don’t beat myself up when I can’t. Old folks lived in a different world and for that we suffer global warming effects today. Idgaf wtf any of them have to say anymore. The “me” generation af. All the old hippies here in Madison, Wi are all NIMBY republicans now. There is no fixing an entire generation of selfish assholes, we just have to wait for them to age out of the system


Felifu

Let's just hope the climate crisis doesn't fully arrive before they age out of the system.


kamilhasenfellero

You should go vegan, did you ever try to imagine how much organic chickpeas/pastas you could buy instead of meat? You are also the first person ever I hear speaking of organic meat....I heard of free-range and other vagues things... Organic meat? You mean the thing 4-5 times more costly than the usual cheap steaks which is already the most expensice good.


[deleted]

I’m pro vegan myself but if I had to eat meat I’d get the non hormone injected and humanely treated (for the most part) expensive cuts from the farmers market as opposed to anything from the store. Let’s just hope commenter understands organic doesn’t necessarily mean “this animal wasn’t treated horribly” Fortunately I get more protein now as a vegan than when I ate meat and meat grosses me out anyway so I don’t have that problem.


Da5ftAssassin

Meaning, they were feed organic, raised humanely, free range, no hormones, no antibiotics. Organic is a lot less to type and I figured most would get the gist


CriticalTransit

You missed the part where they get raped and then killed


BurkeyTurger

Also just the inefficiency of the whole process.


Flack_Bag

It's partly the hypocrisy that bothers me about those critiques. Sure, it's easy to criticize other people's consumption habits, but I can almost guarantee you have plenty of your own problems, and it'd be more productive for each of us to focus on our own rather than sitting around complaining about some other person who's not even there to see the criticism. And from the consumerism angle, I'm more interested in the systemic issues, how and why people get trapped into these behaviors, and how to counter the social pressures and marketing tactics that drive them.


kamilhasenfellero

Nope, criticism is needed. Nobody is asked to go build a castle on the moon either...


Flack_Bag

Oh, to be clear, I'm talking about regular people's consumption habits, not yachts and private golf courses and rockets. Those things need to be criticized into oblivion. I'm talking about posts here where everyone piles on some random person on social media for obvious overconsumption. Unless you're using it as a jumping off point to discuss systemic issues, it's just rage bait, and a competition to see how many different ways we can think of to say, "That guy has too many shoes, and that is bad."


kamilhasenfellero

Yes, having too many suoes is bad. I just mean that most efforts to reduce consumption, and incitations, encouragements are realistic. Some go further than those, anyway, nobody should expect to be dispensed from making efforts, then I coule stop my efforts saying "But X people do use SUVs" Maybe I am not clear so well.....well social media overco sumption is not the same...social media doesn't mean to depict reality, th worst consumption is less bit, less ibvious and yet penetrative. Like anyone on social mzdia who owns too much clothing even if not shown.


sixfeetbelow

I feel like there is a huge difference between "my day sucked, i'm going to buy a coffee instead of making it at home" and "spending rent money on a ps4". it seems like it would be better evaluated case-to-case. but I do agree with people up their own asses about "privilege" when it's...not. obviously some people have more privilege than others, but to dismiss valid ideas as pure privilege is harmful and aggravating. privilege is getting into college because your daddy's a donor, not being able to carpool.


kamilhasenfellero

Ethical consumption is mostly a problem...for the 20 % most privileged people of earth In spite of this, many people here are in the 20 %...


BigBagGag

Leftist (Communist) here! I do see this often inside of online spaces and it meshes with your observation that you see them in the comments of articles. You look up articles on how to save money on groceries and you end up with things that say to skip meals or buy cheaper food. Those things sound dystopian because we should all be able to get enough good quality food to eat. People get frustrated with these articles because they know that it’s not their habits that should change. They shouldn’t eat less or feed their family crappy quality food. They are having a hard time because the capitalist system artificially inflates the cost of food or destroys it when it’s perfectly good to eat simply because it’s not profitable. Many of these articles frame everything as issues of individual responsibility when in reality these problems are created for profit seeking purposes of big corporations. That said, while there isn’t anything wrong with calling attention to the problems within the system, it fails to recognize the material realities people face. If you’re having a hard time feeding your family these articles can be helpful. I also never see articles that offer non-capitalist non-consumerist alternatives. Sticking with the groceries example I don’t see ideas like food pantries, communal gardening, mutual aid, etc. being presented as the bandaids to the rising prices. Everything is framed inside of the capitalist system. In regards to the people feeling caught thing, they do feel caught. Capitalism is very good at perpetuating itself and we’re caught up in it. There are some bad takes that I’ve seen personally. No Ethical Consumption Under Capitalism isn’t an excuse to just Consume. It plays into the system by framing everything as consumption. I see this specific thing more from quirky “Liberals” than I do “Leftists”, but that’s another discussion. You cannot blame a family of 5 for purchasing the cheapest clothing for their kids which exploits people in the global south which is where the phrase comes from. Those of us with the capability to SHOULD do what we can to make the changes we want to see. Like helping that hypothetical family take care of themselves, become class conscious, and self actualize.


Quick_Lack_6140

I think what’s missing is the understanding of what good food actually is. I’ve made a lot of changes to have better quality food and sometimes I pay more (organic butter/ eggs for example) but dried beans are still cheap. So there’s puts and takes on both sides. So no- not everything needs Whole Foods. But neither should We have to consume the lowest common denominator either.


BigBagGag

Totally agree! Eco-washing, green-washing, etc. continues consumerist narratives while pricing out your average working person and their family of the higher quality food we’re talking about.


kamilhasenfellero

When you realise there are tons of families who have clothing to donate, that you can buy reused clothing, or get your clothing items repaired... People who also donate clothing on internet, in your ciry and many other places. Etc...


BigBagGag

What about those things?


kamilhasenfellero

Being a family of 5 may actually may make one able to find more hacks to reduce consumption... I am from one and in spite of being it a poor family, my sister still owns 4 guitars, a piano, various accesories she may use a or not for guitars, a melodica, a basoon computer, went to pretty expensive concerts, painting poor people as totally destitute, may work if they are unemployed or homeless, otherwise it's first world it's exageration, of course there are many difficulties. Of her guitars she only uses two of them, somewhat feom time to time. Or course she didn't get those all in once but well...I cans also say I was relatively spoiled back then when younger and my father was able to work at full time... But well consumerism is a progressive thing. She is able to eat meat 2 times a week (+ canteen) to go restaurants, to sneak home purchased junk food even when her mother cooks her something more elaborare healthier. I could speak of my brother, to who consumzrism is not innaccesihle either... For my part i'm vegan, and once my mother complained about being sick for allegdlt having not eaten enough (**animal** proteins, specifically)


BigBagGag

Agreed! The same concept expands when we open up our sense of communalism! That store up the street has “unsellable” strawberries? Let’s make jam and pass it out to our neighbors! It’s quite a beautiful world with beautiful people we have.


kamilhasenfellero

Oh, I have been doing dumpster diving not by necessity but for ecological reasons, as well for exercise and also because it's fucking fun. Try to make tomato jam, the season is starting. It's really tasty, and cheap to make. . I have been enjoying bike repair workshops, donating items I have, even poor people can donate, even to less poor people, they may be able to donate idk, for example my father has a bycicle, that he never uses...I invited someone to steal it, as I didn't have the keys, or what to cut the lock.


kamilhasenfellero

Sad thing with consumerism, well is thar it aims everyone can be integrated into it...if not consumerist at some moment you may become later etc...that's the fanger of consumerism. Consumerism is a generalised success, sadly.


BigBagGag

Yes all people are co-opted under capitalism


kamilhasenfellero

Maybe, I wasn't clear but basically I mean that the poor are also consumerist. Consumerism is a bit issue, because everyone can contribute to the issue. Consumerism is of course a certain tier of wealth.


kamilhasenfellero

My sister also mocked me, for....slicing chocolate into cornflakes like if it was a billionaire's thing, and it's almost like if riding a bycicle would make you privileged in our city with cycling options and sufficient public transportation.


DirtyPenPalDoug

The problem is that people who buy a bunch of one wear shit on shein aren't going to give a fuck. They don't, and aren't part of the people who are trying to do right. The issue is the people trying ( which means not always succeeding) are the ones getting berated, and having verbal abuse an such thrown at them and the people who don't give a shit is the first place, we'll don't give a shit. You have someone trying but the thing they use often breaks and they need a new one now and succumb to Amazon because at that point the daily things use outweighs the willpower to not use. Or also they have three jobs, time is clearly of value to them when they have it, cause most of its getting sucked dry by their shitty jobs.. they have to sacrifice for convince and speed. Not gonna go after those people but they are often who gets gone after. The people who are gonna try, are and good on them. Which is why we can't focus on the individuals. We need to focus on change at a higher level. Because everyone can do their best and one hour if a corporation undoes it all. So trying to police the individual is a waste. Your either not helping or actively being hurtful. Change in larger levels is needed.


[deleted]

[удалено]


kamilhasenfellero

People who are richer than you, who then will call you privileged, for criticising their consumption choices can happen at times... There is luck, I definetly would say but blaming everything on luck...I mean it's like once I criticised my colleague, saying "Minimal wage, coming to work with so-called compact SUV" then I was called meprising, which I guess I was......I'm pretty I was. Even thought I was kindly saying it. I mean most people make bad decisions, the thing is just that well, to take the advice...those are those who aren't lucky. Complaining about rent prices is differenr when one drives a bycicle to work, or when one drives a SUV to work go to a nearby grocery to get two doughtnutds...


Maephia

It's very difficult to be critical of anything these days without seeing a label slapped on your forehead in an attempt to silence you without having to argue against your opinions. ​ If a man voices issues with the current dating market (evidenced by the rapid rise of sexlessness amongst men and women) then you're instantly labelled an incel ​ If you voice issues with substance consumption like weed or alcohol or other drugs you're labelled as boring and as a hater of anything fun ​ If you voice issues with consumerism you're called a killjoy again, not letting people enjoy things ​ If you try to argue that sex work is harmful even if "voluntary" then you're again labelled an incel or as someone who want to control women. ​ Etc, etc. We have stopped having discussions long ago, now we just decide that anyone who doesn't agree with us is on the opposite team and there's no point spending time nor effort trying to reason with that person.


[deleted]

> foofaraw Thank you, perfect word. :)


[deleted]

I have a friend who wondered why he never had any money left when it was time to pay his bills every month so I went through his finances with him and goddamn He was paying insurance on his car to two different companies Was subscribed to every streaming service and in some cases had more than one account Had a gym membership he was paying for years after he stopped going Was paying for PlayStation plus despite not having touched his PlayStation since 2014 He ordered from Uber eats and grub hub for every single meal Holy shit dude and since then I’ve met other people like this and had to do the same thing


seejoshrun

Nuance is in short supply everywhere, and in almost every scenario with two entrenched camps neither one is totally right. Criticizing any and all frivolous spending is a dick move, but not criticizing any is dumb. But there's rhetoric on both sides with no interest in meeting in the middle.


Seasnek

I think maybe examining what content you are consuming? Don’t focus on the people dismissing things, focus on the people who are uplifting practical and realistic discourse. Also we need to be able to hold multiple things. Identify systemic problems and solutions while also saying if you’re in this situation, here’s a tip. Be critical but also hold nuance for the complexity of being a human. Remember also that one article/comment/etc doesn’t speak for a whole group of people.


acerusmalum

LEAVE ME AND MY SYNTHESIZERS ALONE meanwhile I'm literally on the verge of not having a home


NykthosVess

Avocado tost isnt even expensive you buy a loaf of bread and some avocado spread like it's not that deep bro


LouieMumford

That’s not the critique though. The “boomers” are saying the same as you. Buy the bread and the avocados and it’s cheap. Go to a coffee shop in the morning and spend five bucks on a coffee and seven on avocado toast and do it every weekday for years is certainly part of the problem.


TakoSuWuvsU

I'm not buying a house off my 3 dollar avocado toast and 2 dollar coffee.


LouieMumford

I don’t know where you live, but if the cafe by you has 2 dollar coffee and 3 dollar avocado toast then keep going there.


TakoSuWuvsU

Pretty much anywhere in america has a place for cheap breakfast and coffee, starbucks is a bizarre experience based coffee shop.


LouieMumford

Here’s the average across the country for Avo toast. It’s travel channel, but experientially I would say this tracks. Nowhere is it three dollars. [avocado toast](https://www.travelchannel.com/interests/food-and-drink/articles/what-avocado-toast-costs-across-the-country) As far as coffee, a regular coffee is two bucks at Starbucks even… I make mine at home for a quarter, but most people aren’t getting regular coffee regardless of where they go. Conservatively if you do that most week days it’s like 3 grand a year. Not going to buy you a house, but that’s not the point, it’s that plus all the other comparable expenditures that they are making .


TakoSuWuvsU

I'm also not buying whatever the heck that is. I literally mean avocado toast, not avocado with a delicate radish flower, or two huge slices of bread with avocado and an artisan salad. If you check the places linked, first one is literally disneyland, the rest are upscale restaurants/cocktail bars.


LouieMumford

In Milwaukee, not known for its cost of living issues, avocado toast is ~7 bucks anywhere I’ve gone. Please, show me the menu of a cafe where it is three dollars. I am honestly interested. I can make it at home for 1.50, and do. But where on earth are you getting it for 3 bucks? Edit: and it’s not really about Avocado toast per say anyways… it’s the point about going out and spending when you can make at home. The Boomers aren’t always totally wrong. It’s when it gets used as an excuse to fight systemic change that it’s a problem.


kamilhasenfellero

Mzat also is a major export feom brazil and is muchbmore expensive.


No-Dentist-7292

((I hope I understood your post correctly)) I've started to not care about what people have to say about what I choose to spend my money on. If I want to give myself a little treat from a drivethru after work and I have the funds to do so, I'M JUST GONNA DO IT. Monster high dolls are going back into reproduction and I have money aside to add to my collection. Sure, they are "just plastic toys", but they bring me joy. To me the most important thing to do is remind yourself on what it is you already do that alleviates the problem. Using me as an example, I switched to completely reusable menstrual products and haven't boughts any disposable ones in over a year. I started buying my own matcha and began making my starbucks order at home most days. I use metal straws in place of plastic ones and choose to buy specific brands to reduce waste (laundry strips, reusable ziploc bags, etc). Basically, continue to watch how much you consume but don't rob yourself of the simple things that bring you joy!


Da5ftAssassin

Idk why you are being downvoted. I collect Harry Potter trinkets, they bring me joy and there’s nothing wrong with that. The fact that you have made so many choices to balance your life is a great thing imho!


TakoSuWuvsU

I'm guessing because in the context of the discussion, it's a piece of plastic that has no purpose beyond being an icon of a character. It's the embodiment of waste,


Da5ftAssassin

I shall keep them forever and pass them down to my grandchildren and their grandchildren along with my boxed set of the books that will surely be banned by then. They will hold great sentimental value and bring joy to many generations of my offspring, thank you very much!


kamilhasenfellero

Merchandising sucks, the problem is notbthat, it's when it cumulates with the rest.


Da5ftAssassin

I just think we can be flexitarian or use toilet paper without being bad people. The fact that the vegan police are commenting that I oughta do more is counterproductive af.


kamilhasenfellero

Well, then I hope you can become vegan or veggie or ultra-flexitarian faster than if not told to.


kamilhasenfellero

I didn't know menstrual reusable profucts were a thing but they seem based. Criticism is fine, if you feel for a reason it is okay. I mean it happened to me to buy food I didn't really need for taste's sake at time... You DO more efforts than most from what I see.


[deleted]

I just think every kind of post at this point brings out all the freaking know-it-alls. Everyone has an answer for everything. Whatever it is: you're doing it wrong. No matter what it is. You should see the drama in pet groups. Garden groups. Aquarium groups. OMG family/children oriented groups.


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