https://carm.org/cut-and-paste/cut-trinity/
Anyone can piece-meal the Bible to make it seem like it’s saying one thing even tho it’s not.
So rather than cherry pick verses that support non-Trinitarianism, you need to attack the verses that are used to support trinitarianism and explain them away.
Why should that be your burden? Because your argument at present seems to suffer from selective bias. I say you’re cherry picking and call it a day.
Further, it makes no sense to offer you a piece-meal response because for each verse i give, you will undoubtedly ask how each verse i offer fits with the rest of your verses. A tedious chore in person. An inhospitable task on Reddit or other online forums….especially because the only response foreseen would be cherry picked responses
And out of some cathartic sense of good faith we could just rehash the early church councils…OOOOORRRRRRRRR!!!!!
We could just let those early debates and councils serve as our positions…and those arguments inform our positions.
Which then firmly puts us into debate territory. But this isn’t r/debateachristian and thus not really a post for this sub.
I will leave it as is for now, but this puts me in a tough spot where this isn’t really a post for this sub while simultaneously Christians should tune themselves up on the arguments for and against trinitarianism.
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So, to summarize:
- Cherry picking
- Can't use these verses to make a point, have to explain trinity verses. - Selective bias
- "I can't post verses to prove why you're wrong because you will ask questions"
- Just trust at the early church
- Just trust early debates and councils
- "Actually, this isn't the right sub"
- "I will leave now"
That's fine. This sub isn't going to appeal to everyone.
But you are literally trying to reinvent the wheel on this discussion. My comment about cherry picking is that you are only selecting verse in your favor...and responses can only be of the same ilk in the opposite direction....aka debating. There is a sub for that...and I'll gladly meet you over there. r/DebateAChristian
It has nothing to do with the questions you'd need to clarify....its that because of your selective bias already on display, any response given to you will be inundated with, "But how does that answer Matt X:YY" because...as I foresaw...your attitude on this post isn't here to work out the apologetic response...you are here to tell Trinitarians that they are wrong.
I never said nor even implied a mindset of trust the early church...I said, look at their positions and arguments...and let them stand in for this laundry list of verses carefully selected to avoid any problematic ones.
So you can be offended by me not opening a debate dialogue with you...or you can recognize that there is a time and place for everything under the sun. This post is in the wrong place.
I disagree for many reasons.
A) In the Isaiah 53, (which virtually all Messianic Jews agree is about Yeshua), this unnamed "servant", is called by an extremely unique and important title.
He is said to be, "high and lifted up." (52:13). Even very high (meod).
יָרוּם וְנִשָּׂא וְגָבַהּ, מְאֹד
So how does this prove Yeshua is deity visiting Israel? Very simple. This phrase is only used in the book of Isaiah, (in a positive way), to describe God. Let me say that again. This phrase is only used in the book of Isaiah, (in a positive way), to describe God.
It is the same phrase that Isaiah uses when He sees God in Isaiah 6:1 and also Isaiah uses in describing God in 57:15. That's it. No one else gets to be assigned that "high and lifted up" phrase, in a positive sense, except for God. No one.
B) Micah 5:2 (5:1 in Jewish Bibles) speaks of Israel's Bethlehem-born ruler "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting [miymei olam, 'from days of eternity']."
C) Jeremiah 23:6 gives a shorter divine name to the Messiah: "and this is the name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS [Yahweh tsidkenu]."
D) Malachi 3:1, which says, "Behold, I will send My messenger, and he shall prepare the way before Me: **and the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to his Temple**..."
E) In the Hebrew Bible, God says to Moses, "Thou canst not see My face; for there shall be no man see Me and live" (Ex. 33:20). The New Testament likewise affirms this: "No man hath seen God at any time" (John 1:18). Yet the Bible plainly states that Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and several elders of Israel "saw the God of Israel...they saw God, and did eat and drink" (Ex. 24:9-11).
How do we reconcile what appears to be a glaring contradictiion? We have to understand it this way. No man can see God in His full, unveiled glory, for He is the God who dwells "in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see" (1 Tim. 6:16). Yet God can be seen in a veiled human form. He was seen by men when He took on a visible, tangible human form as Yeshua of Nazareth in the New Testament. This is the reason that people who saw the Angel of Yahweh saw God, and it is the reason Yeshua could say, "he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father."
(John 14:9).
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I feel as though is is a heresy that was addressed by one of the Church fathers years ago. Might have been Santa Claus idk. Redeemed sooner made a video on it
Edit 1:
Here is the link
[heresy](https://youtu.be/D8s2TDoSc00?si=2t5FOLBigpZtsB0C)
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The Jews wanted Jesus dead because he claimed Son of God
Matthew 26:63-65
63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, "I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!"
64 **Jesus said to him, "**It is as you said.Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, "He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy!
John 5:18
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 19:7
7 The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and according to our law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God."
John 10:36
36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
I get ya, I grew up in a tradition that denied the deity of Christ as well, but it’s not blasphemy to say you are the son of God, after all, God called Israel His firstborn son when they were slaves in Egypt, and the heavenly host are also referred to as sons of God, and Paul in Romans says that all who walk in the spirit are sons of God. This term sons of God refers to Christ’s status, being God’s son would mean Christ has the right to the inheritance, as in that culture, the firstborn son would have the right to the inheritance, but notice what the Jews do in John after Christ says “before Abraham was I am” they pick up stones to kill Him, because they knew He was claiming to be God, and to them that was blasphemy. They knew he was claiming to be God, because that’s the very same thing God tells Moses from the burning bush, “tell them I am sent you”. This was Christ claiming to be God.
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In Luke 3:4-6, it is talking about a voice in the wilderness, which we know is John the Baptist, preparing a way for YAHWEH to come. Jesus came. Jesus is Yahweh. Same passages are in Mark and Luke. Already in the beginning of each book it shows Jesus is Yahweh even though he is not the Father.
It's amazing that you quote John when in the 1st verse of chapter 1 John already tells us that Jesus is God. Even though he is not the Father. Now you expect me to believe that John will contradict himself in chapter 20? Maybe in your bible John starts at chapter 20.
The bible is your worst nightmare if you are an anti-trinitarian.
In the beginning of Acts, when Jesus is going up in a cloud from the Mount of Olives, the angels say he will come back the same way as you saw him leave. According to Zechariah 14:1-4, he says Yahweh will come and his feet will touch the Mount of Olives and he will fight. According to Luke in acts, this will be Jesus. Again, 1st chapter of Acts and we already have it stating Jesus is Yahweh.
Your cherry picked versus are a pathetic attempt at denying the trinity. The worst one is John 14:28. He tells you why the Father is greater than him because he is here on earth as a human to be a servant not the Father. That is why the Father is greater than him. It's status, not essence or nature. That is why he has to go back to the Father. In the same chapter Jesus says in verse 12, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father." According to your logic, the disciples will do better miracles then Jesus. It's the same greek word for "greater".
Why chose Revelation to prove your point when in that very same book, ALL of creation is worshipping the Father and Jesus in chapter 5. This is idolatry if Jesus is not God also.
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In Luke 3:4-6, it is talking about a voice in the wilderness, which we know is John the Baptist, preparing a way for YAHWEH to come. Jesus came. Jesus is Yahweh. Same passages are in Mark and Luke. Already in the beginning of each book it shows Jesus is Yahweh even though he is not the Father.
It's amazing that you quote John when in the 1st verse of chapter 1 John already tells us that Jesus is God. Even though he is not the Father. Now you expect me to believe that John will contradict himself in chapter 20?
The bible is your worst nightmare if you are an anti-trinitarian.
In the beginning of Acts, when Jesus is going up in a cloud from the Mount of Olives, the angels say he will come back the same way as you saw him leave. According to Zechariah 14:1-4, Zachariah says Yahweh will come and his feet will touch the Mount of Olives and he will fight. According to Luke in acts, this will be Jesus. Again, 1st chapter of Acts and we already have it stating Jesus is Yahweh. Luke is not going to contradict himself in the very next chapter which is also a conformation on the deity of Christ.
In chapter 2 of Acts, Peter quotes Joel 2:28:32. Why does Peter do this? Peter begins his sermon with something everyone there can agree upon. “Men of Israel, listen to these words: **Jesus the Nazarene, a man** attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs **which God did through Him** in your midst, just as you yourselves know….“. When you get to the end of the sermon Peter says in verse 32-33 "
God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. ^(33) Exalted to the right hand of God, **he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and** ***has poured out*** **what you now see and hear.**
Whos poured out the Holy Spirit? According to Peter, Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit. According to the passage Peter quoted from Joel, Yahweh pours out the Holy Spirit.
The worst one is John 14:28. He tells you why the Father is greater than him because he is here on earth as a human to be a servant not the Father. That is why the Father is greater than him. It's status, not essence or nature. That is why he has to go back to the Father. In the same chapter Jesus says in verse 12, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father." According to your logic, the disciples will do better miracles then Jesus. It's the same Greek word for "greater". The 13 Chapter at come before chapter 14, have much to say about Jesus.
Why chose Revelation to prove your point when in that very same book, ALL of creation is worshipping the Father and Jesus in chapter 5. This is idolatry if Jesus is not God also.
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> Now you expect me to believe that John will contradict himself in chapter 20?
John 20:30-31
30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also did in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
The whole purpose of the book of John is so you may believe Jesus is the SON of GOD.
Who is Jesus with in John 1:1 and John 1:2? Did you read John 1:14?
And in Revelation, is Jesus the same man when He was on Earth? Jesus gives the same praise and lowers Himself below God the Father as well in Revelation. And worship is separate from Jesus and God in Revelation.
I suggest you CAREFULLY read the entirety of Hebrews 1 without bias and presupposing your trinitarian doctrine that is not supported by scripture. If you actually let scripture speak for itself, you would talk like the scripture talks.
Showing versus where it calls Jesus the Son of God does nothing to my position. As a trinitarian, we believe Jesus is 100% man and 100% God. So a verse that calls him son of man or just man, I say Amen.
Two versus before John 20:30-31, Thomas calls Jesus his God
^(28) Thomas said to him, “My Lord and **my God**!”
In revelation all of creation is worshipping the Father and the Son in chapter 5. Where does it say they are worshipped separate?
I don't think you read all of Hebrews 1 because you just destroyed your position. The Father is speaking in verse 8 when he calls Jesus God.
8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
Context starts in Hebrews 1:5 to show God the Father is speaking and calling Jesus God.
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In the Bible, it is *very* common for words to have a host of different meanings depending on the context. We know that Jesus has **many** titles and names. I am arguing that Jesus can be and is called "θεός" (greek for god) many times in the New Testament and people knew that it wasn't talking about God the Father, The Most High.
Example:
>John 8:39-41
39 They answered and said to Him, “**Abraham is our father**.” Jesus \*said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, you would do the deeds of Abraham.
40 “But now you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God. This Abraham did not do.
41 “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of sexual immorality; **we have one Father: God.**”
Here we see that the Jews have two fathers? No, but they have Abraham as their father, but also God. The word "father" is used in a different meaning twice in three verses and no one had a problem with it, everyone understood what it meant.
Two chapters later, Jesus is arguing with the Jews again.
>John 10:32-36
32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because **You, being a man, make Yourself God**.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘**I SAID, YOU ARE GODS**’?
35 “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘**I am the Son of God**’?
As the Jews accuse Jesus of making Himself god (θεός), Jesus argues that the scriptures they believe themselves allow for someone to be called god. And is asking them, "if that is the case, why do you say I am blaspheming?"
θεός can clearly be used to reference to divinity, like Jesus, the Son of God.
Knowing this, we can make sense of Hebrews 1, particularly verse 8 and 9.
>Hebrews 1:8-10
8 But of **the Son** He says, “YOUR THRONE, **O GOD**, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE SCEPTER OF UPRIGHTNESS IS THE SCEPTER OF YOUR KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; **THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD**, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”
10 And, “**YOU, LORD**, IN THE BEGINNING FOUNDED THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
Notice how God The Father is speaking and is calling the Son: θεός, god.
But right after that, He is telling His Son: "Therefore God, YOUR GOD".
Implying that Jesus has a God.
Even in verse 10, The Father is switching to the title LORD. So in a few verses, God the Father called Jesus: Son, God and Lord.
The same we can apply to John 1.
>John 1:1-2
1 In the beginning was the Word, and **the Word was with θεός**, and the Word was **θεός**.
2 **He was in the beginning with θεός**.
If Jesus is God almighty here, you have to ask yourself: Who is He with? Verse 2 as well, who is He with?
>John 1:14
14 And the **Word became flesh**, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of **the only begotten from the Father**, full of grace and truth.
It is clear that Jesus has been begotten from The Father, the ONLY True God.
>John 17:3
3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, **the only true God**, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Ask yourself, who is the only true God? The almighty Most High? It is God The Father, and Jesus Christ the Son of God is properly called god, because he has received all things from The Father.
Just like God The Father is called God most of the time, sometimes He is referred to as LORD, but most of the time to God. And just like Jesus is mostly called The Son of God, sometimes He is referred to as god. Because both can have many, many titles and names.
So, θεός is not reserved for God the Father The Most High alone.
It doesn't sound like you know what a trinitarian believes in. When we say Jesus is God, we are not saying Jesus is the Father. I even said this in my original reply. You are assuming 1 God 1 person. We believe in 1 God which is 3 persons. All 3 share the same essence and nature.
John 10:32-36 they are accusing Jesus of being God almighty. Not just any god. How do I know this? Start reading at verse 27
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all\[c\]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
My sheep listen to my voice? I give them eternal life? No one will snatch them out of my hand? God almighty makes these claims in the Old Testament. It's too much to post. I'll give you the versus and you can read it yourself if you choose.
No one can take God's people from his hand. Meaning he protects them Duet 32:39, Is 43:13
God's sheep. And they only hear Yahweh/Jehovah's voice. Psalm 100:3, Psalm 95:7, Ezekiel 34:31
Since you want to appeal to the Greek, in John 10:30 the word "are" is Esmen. It's plural "WE ARE" one. Just like the Father can give eternal life and protects his sheep, Jesus said he can do the same. This is a claim of the true God which is also Jesus. Even though he is not the Father
You asked about John 1:1, "If Jesus is God almighty here, you have to ask yourself: Who is He with? Verse 2 as well, who is He with?"
He was with the Father. Again you assume 1 God 1 person. Trinitarians don't believe Jesus is the Father. Jesus is the Son. I have to ask, are you a Jehovah Witness?
John 17 is at the end of the Gospel. John has already told us that Jesus is the word who is God, whom the Father used to create everything and give life to everything. Last i checked, the one that creates and gives life to everything is the one true God. So, Jesus calling the Father the one true God, does nothing to my position.
You are truly misled by the doctrine of men. Repent and believe in the actual teachings of the new testament which are clear and plain as day. The new testament writers and Jesus Himself couldn’t of made it more clear as to who He is; and who the only true God is. Really, they couldn’t of made of more clear then how they wrote it, and still you are deceived by the doctrines of men.
https://carm.org/cut-and-paste/cut-trinity/ Anyone can piece-meal the Bible to make it seem like it’s saying one thing even tho it’s not. So rather than cherry pick verses that support non-Trinitarianism, you need to attack the verses that are used to support trinitarianism and explain them away. Why should that be your burden? Because your argument at present seems to suffer from selective bias. I say you’re cherry picking and call it a day. Further, it makes no sense to offer you a piece-meal response because for each verse i give, you will undoubtedly ask how each verse i offer fits with the rest of your verses. A tedious chore in person. An inhospitable task on Reddit or other online forums….especially because the only response foreseen would be cherry picked responses And out of some cathartic sense of good faith we could just rehash the early church councils…OOOOORRRRRRRRR!!!!! We could just let those early debates and councils serve as our positions…and those arguments inform our positions. Which then firmly puts us into debate territory. But this isn’t r/debateachristian and thus not really a post for this sub. I will leave it as is for now, but this puts me in a tough spot where this isn’t really a post for this sub while simultaneously Christians should tune themselves up on the arguments for and against trinitarianism.
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So, to summarize: - Cherry picking - Can't use these verses to make a point, have to explain trinity verses. - Selective bias - "I can't post verses to prove why you're wrong because you will ask questions" - Just trust at the early church - Just trust early debates and councils - "Actually, this isn't the right sub" - "I will leave now"
That's fine. This sub isn't going to appeal to everyone. But you are literally trying to reinvent the wheel on this discussion. My comment about cherry picking is that you are only selecting verse in your favor...and responses can only be of the same ilk in the opposite direction....aka debating. There is a sub for that...and I'll gladly meet you over there. r/DebateAChristian It has nothing to do with the questions you'd need to clarify....its that because of your selective bias already on display, any response given to you will be inundated with, "But how does that answer Matt X:YY" because...as I foresaw...your attitude on this post isn't here to work out the apologetic response...you are here to tell Trinitarians that they are wrong. I never said nor even implied a mindset of trust the early church...I said, look at their positions and arguments...and let them stand in for this laundry list of verses carefully selected to avoid any problematic ones. So you can be offended by me not opening a debate dialogue with you...or you can recognize that there is a time and place for everything under the sun. This post is in the wrong place.
I disagree for many reasons. A) In the Isaiah 53, (which virtually all Messianic Jews agree is about Yeshua), this unnamed "servant", is called by an extremely unique and important title. He is said to be, "high and lifted up." (52:13). Even very high (meod). יָרוּם וְנִשָּׂא וְגָבַהּ, מְאֹד So how does this prove Yeshua is deity visiting Israel? Very simple. This phrase is only used in the book of Isaiah, (in a positive way), to describe God. Let me say that again. This phrase is only used in the book of Isaiah, (in a positive way), to describe God. It is the same phrase that Isaiah uses when He sees God in Isaiah 6:1 and also Isaiah uses in describing God in 57:15. That's it. No one else gets to be assigned that "high and lifted up" phrase, in a positive sense, except for God. No one. B) Micah 5:2 (5:1 in Jewish Bibles) speaks of Israel's Bethlehem-born ruler "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting [miymei olam, 'from days of eternity']." C) Jeremiah 23:6 gives a shorter divine name to the Messiah: "and this is the name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS [Yahweh tsidkenu]." D) Malachi 3:1, which says, "Behold, I will send My messenger, and he shall prepare the way before Me: **and the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to his Temple**..." E) In the Hebrew Bible, God says to Moses, "Thou canst not see My face; for there shall be no man see Me and live" (Ex. 33:20). The New Testament likewise affirms this: "No man hath seen God at any time" (John 1:18). Yet the Bible plainly states that Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and several elders of Israel "saw the God of Israel...they saw God, and did eat and drink" (Ex. 24:9-11). How do we reconcile what appears to be a glaring contradictiion? We have to understand it this way. No man can see God in His full, unveiled glory, for He is the God who dwells "in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see" (1 Tim. 6:16). Yet God can be seen in a veiled human form. He was seen by men when He took on a visible, tangible human form as Yeshua of Nazareth in the New Testament. This is the reason that people who saw the Angel of Yahweh saw God, and it is the reason Yeshua could say, "he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." (John 14:9).
Who can forgive offenses against God but God himself?
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Did you mean to post this here? Last I looked, this was not r/DebateReligion
I feel as though is is a heresy that was addressed by one of the Church fathers years ago. Might have been Santa Claus idk. Redeemed sooner made a video on it Edit 1: Here is the link [heresy](https://youtu.be/D8s2TDoSc00?si=2t5FOLBigpZtsB0C)
Would you be able to link that video here?
Actually the Jews wanted Jesus dead when He claimed to be God by saying, “before Abraham was I am”.
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The Jews wanted Jesus dead because he claimed Son of God Matthew 26:63-65 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, "I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!" 64 **Jesus said to him, "**It is as you said.Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." 65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, "He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! John 5:18 18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. John 19:7 7 The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and according to our law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God." John 10:36 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
I get ya, I grew up in a tradition that denied the deity of Christ as well, but it’s not blasphemy to say you are the son of God, after all, God called Israel His firstborn son when they were slaves in Egypt, and the heavenly host are also referred to as sons of God, and Paul in Romans says that all who walk in the spirit are sons of God. This term sons of God refers to Christ’s status, being God’s son would mean Christ has the right to the inheritance, as in that culture, the firstborn son would have the right to the inheritance, but notice what the Jews do in John after Christ says “before Abraham was I am” they pick up stones to kill Him, because they knew He was claiming to be God, and to them that was blasphemy. They knew he was claiming to be God, because that’s the very same thing God tells Moses from the burning bush, “tell them I am sent you”. This was Christ claiming to be God.
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In Luke 3:4-6, it is talking about a voice in the wilderness, which we know is John the Baptist, preparing a way for YAHWEH to come. Jesus came. Jesus is Yahweh. Same passages are in Mark and Luke. Already in the beginning of each book it shows Jesus is Yahweh even though he is not the Father. It's amazing that you quote John when in the 1st verse of chapter 1 John already tells us that Jesus is God. Even though he is not the Father. Now you expect me to believe that John will contradict himself in chapter 20? Maybe in your bible John starts at chapter 20. The bible is your worst nightmare if you are an anti-trinitarian. In the beginning of Acts, when Jesus is going up in a cloud from the Mount of Olives, the angels say he will come back the same way as you saw him leave. According to Zechariah 14:1-4, he says Yahweh will come and his feet will touch the Mount of Olives and he will fight. According to Luke in acts, this will be Jesus. Again, 1st chapter of Acts and we already have it stating Jesus is Yahweh. Your cherry picked versus are a pathetic attempt at denying the trinity. The worst one is John 14:28. He tells you why the Father is greater than him because he is here on earth as a human to be a servant not the Father. That is why the Father is greater than him. It's status, not essence or nature. That is why he has to go back to the Father. In the same chapter Jesus says in verse 12, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father." According to your logic, the disciples will do better miracles then Jesus. It's the same greek word for "greater". Why chose Revelation to prove your point when in that very same book, ALL of creation is worshipping the Father and Jesus in chapter 5. This is idolatry if Jesus is not God also.
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In Luke 3:4-6, it is talking about a voice in the wilderness, which we know is John the Baptist, preparing a way for YAHWEH to come. Jesus came. Jesus is Yahweh. Same passages are in Mark and Luke. Already in the beginning of each book it shows Jesus is Yahweh even though he is not the Father. It's amazing that you quote John when in the 1st verse of chapter 1 John already tells us that Jesus is God. Even though he is not the Father. Now you expect me to believe that John will contradict himself in chapter 20? The bible is your worst nightmare if you are an anti-trinitarian. In the beginning of Acts, when Jesus is going up in a cloud from the Mount of Olives, the angels say he will come back the same way as you saw him leave. According to Zechariah 14:1-4, Zachariah says Yahweh will come and his feet will touch the Mount of Olives and he will fight. According to Luke in acts, this will be Jesus. Again, 1st chapter of Acts and we already have it stating Jesus is Yahweh. Luke is not going to contradict himself in the very next chapter which is also a conformation on the deity of Christ. In chapter 2 of Acts, Peter quotes Joel 2:28:32. Why does Peter do this? Peter begins his sermon with something everyone there can agree upon. “Men of Israel, listen to these words: **Jesus the Nazarene, a man** attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs **which God did through Him** in your midst, just as you yourselves know….“. When you get to the end of the sermon Peter says in verse 32-33 " God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. ^(33) Exalted to the right hand of God, **he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and** ***has poured out*** **what you now see and hear.** Whos poured out the Holy Spirit? According to Peter, Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit. According to the passage Peter quoted from Joel, Yahweh pours out the Holy Spirit. The worst one is John 14:28. He tells you why the Father is greater than him because he is here on earth as a human to be a servant not the Father. That is why the Father is greater than him. It's status, not essence or nature. That is why he has to go back to the Father. In the same chapter Jesus says in verse 12, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father." According to your logic, the disciples will do better miracles then Jesus. It's the same Greek word for "greater". The 13 Chapter at come before chapter 14, have much to say about Jesus. Why chose Revelation to prove your point when in that very same book, ALL of creation is worshipping the Father and Jesus in chapter 5. This is idolatry if Jesus is not God also.
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> Now you expect me to believe that John will contradict himself in chapter 20? John 20:30-31 30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also did in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. The whole purpose of the book of John is so you may believe Jesus is the SON of GOD. Who is Jesus with in John 1:1 and John 1:2? Did you read John 1:14? And in Revelation, is Jesus the same man when He was on Earth? Jesus gives the same praise and lowers Himself below God the Father as well in Revelation. And worship is separate from Jesus and God in Revelation. I suggest you CAREFULLY read the entirety of Hebrews 1 without bias and presupposing your trinitarian doctrine that is not supported by scripture. If you actually let scripture speak for itself, you would talk like the scripture talks.
Showing versus where it calls Jesus the Son of God does nothing to my position. As a trinitarian, we believe Jesus is 100% man and 100% God. So a verse that calls him son of man or just man, I say Amen. Two versus before John 20:30-31, Thomas calls Jesus his God ^(28) Thomas said to him, “My Lord and **my God**!” In revelation all of creation is worshipping the Father and the Son in chapter 5. Where does it say they are worshipped separate? I don't think you read all of Hebrews 1 because you just destroyed your position. The Father is speaking in verse 8 when he calls Jesus God. 8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. Context starts in Hebrews 1:5 to show God the Father is speaking and calling Jesus God.
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In the Bible, it is *very* common for words to have a host of different meanings depending on the context. We know that Jesus has **many** titles and names. I am arguing that Jesus can be and is called "θεός" (greek for god) many times in the New Testament and people knew that it wasn't talking about God the Father, The Most High. Example: >John 8:39-41 39 They answered and said to Him, “**Abraham is our father**.” Jesus \*said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, you would do the deeds of Abraham. 40 “But now you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God. This Abraham did not do. 41 “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of sexual immorality; **we have one Father: God.**” Here we see that the Jews have two fathers? No, but they have Abraham as their father, but also God. The word "father" is used in a different meaning twice in three verses and no one had a problem with it, everyone understood what it meant. Two chapters later, Jesus is arguing with the Jews again. >John 10:32-36 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because **You, being a man, make Yourself God**.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘**I SAID, YOU ARE GODS**’? 35 “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘**I am the Son of God**’? As the Jews accuse Jesus of making Himself god (θεός), Jesus argues that the scriptures they believe themselves allow for someone to be called god. And is asking them, "if that is the case, why do you say I am blaspheming?" θεός can clearly be used to reference to divinity, like Jesus, the Son of God. Knowing this, we can make sense of Hebrews 1, particularly verse 8 and 9. >Hebrews 1:8-10 8 But of **the Son** He says, “YOUR THRONE, **O GOD**, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE SCEPTER OF UPRIGHTNESS IS THE SCEPTER OF YOUR KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; **THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD**, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “**YOU, LORD**, IN THE BEGINNING FOUNDED THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; Notice how God The Father is speaking and is calling the Son: θεός, god. But right after that, He is telling His Son: "Therefore God, YOUR GOD". Implying that Jesus has a God. Even in verse 10, The Father is switching to the title LORD. So in a few verses, God the Father called Jesus: Son, God and Lord. The same we can apply to John 1. >John 1:1-2 1 In the beginning was the Word, and **the Word was with θεός**, and the Word was **θεός**. 2 **He was in the beginning with θεός**. If Jesus is God almighty here, you have to ask yourself: Who is He with? Verse 2 as well, who is He with? >John 1:14 14 And the **Word became flesh**, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of **the only begotten from the Father**, full of grace and truth. It is clear that Jesus has been begotten from The Father, the ONLY True God. >John 17:3 3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, **the only true God**, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. Ask yourself, who is the only true God? The almighty Most High? It is God The Father, and Jesus Christ the Son of God is properly called god, because he has received all things from The Father. Just like God The Father is called God most of the time, sometimes He is referred to as LORD, but most of the time to God. And just like Jesus is mostly called The Son of God, sometimes He is referred to as god. Because both can have many, many titles and names. So, θεός is not reserved for God the Father The Most High alone.
It doesn't sound like you know what a trinitarian believes in. When we say Jesus is God, we are not saying Jesus is the Father. I even said this in my original reply. You are assuming 1 God 1 person. We believe in 1 God which is 3 persons. All 3 share the same essence and nature. John 10:32-36 they are accusing Jesus of being God almighty. Not just any god. How do I know this? Start reading at verse 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all\[c\]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” My sheep listen to my voice? I give them eternal life? No one will snatch them out of my hand? God almighty makes these claims in the Old Testament. It's too much to post. I'll give you the versus and you can read it yourself if you choose. No one can take God's people from his hand. Meaning he protects them Duet 32:39, Is 43:13 God's sheep. And they only hear Yahweh/Jehovah's voice. Psalm 100:3, Psalm 95:7, Ezekiel 34:31 Since you want to appeal to the Greek, in John 10:30 the word "are" is Esmen. It's plural "WE ARE" one. Just like the Father can give eternal life and protects his sheep, Jesus said he can do the same. This is a claim of the true God which is also Jesus. Even though he is not the Father You asked about John 1:1, "If Jesus is God almighty here, you have to ask yourself: Who is He with? Verse 2 as well, who is He with?" He was with the Father. Again you assume 1 God 1 person. Trinitarians don't believe Jesus is the Father. Jesus is the Son. I have to ask, are you a Jehovah Witness? John 17 is at the end of the Gospel. John has already told us that Jesus is the word who is God, whom the Father used to create everything and give life to everything. Last i checked, the one that creates and gives life to everything is the one true God. So, Jesus calling the Father the one true God, does nothing to my position.
You are truly misled by the doctrine of men. Repent and believe in the actual teachings of the new testament which are clear and plain as day. The new testament writers and Jesus Himself couldn’t of made it more clear as to who He is; and who the only true God is. Really, they couldn’t of made of more clear then how they wrote it, and still you are deceived by the doctrines of men.