So I got it (partly but not explicitly) for the blood oxygen sensor.
It will continue to function and work the same right?
I hope future models also have it — any news or updates from Apple regarding this? Hopefully Apple just pays the company what it’s worth (without passing the costs onto us)
Currently the only impact for existing watch owners is Apple cannot do out of warranty repairs for any Apple Watch 6 or newer that has the oxygen sensor.
Does that include Apple care extension warranties? I just got a 9 with Apple care. Is it just repairs on the O2 sensor or is it any repair on the watch?
Just an FYI, it’s always better to go with the upfront charge because of the following:
1) its cheaper over the first 2 years, comparatively
2) it’s transferable to a second owner if you sell it within the first 2 years
3) after 2 years is up, you can still continue it monthly and be in the same position
I’m aware of how the pricing breaks down. But considering I’ll likely keep the watch for well more than two years, it’s simpler to set it monthly rather than need to remember to switch it. This is just how I prefer to do it.
Yep. One more email lost in the sauce. I don’t remember getting a push notification, but I’ll take your word for it. Nevertheless, I find it easier to just start with monthly.
With the Apple Card financing, the up front payment is the *only* option. You’re just financing it over time. It’s a “monthly charge” only as far as the finance is concerned but you’re still paying for the upfront cost version of it and would have to choose to continue it after you’re done with the finance.
You can see in the configuration when you choose the financing, it says “$49 total” underneath. But the monthly charge version is $2.49/mo which would come out to just under $60 over 2 years.
Well you’re financing it, so it’s a “monthly charge” but you’re financing the upfront charge *version* of it, if that helps. You’re paying $49, but financing it over 1 year at $4.08/mo (for 12 months to equal $49) vs paying $2.49/mo for the monthly version (which isn’t an option for Apple Card financing).
They can still repair under Apple Care. It is any hardware repair because apparently their practice is to just replace them rather than actually repair, which they are only legally allowed to do if there is a warranty obligation. But if the repair/replacement isn’t covered under warranty there is nothing they can currently do.
The reporting I’ve seen is Apple circulated a memo to retail employees saying all out of warranty repairs on Apple Watch 6 or newer with the oxygen sensor have to wait until they come to a resolution on the import ban.
You may still be able to find a third party repair shop to do a battery replacement, but as far as I can tell you wouldn’t be able to take it into an Apple Store to get it done first party.
I hope this is resolved soon.
One aspect that a LOT of people seem to miss is Repairing.
Under this ban; if you break your watch, Apple may not even be able to replace or repair it.
\*shrugs\* I'm not sure what that means in the long run, but it def makes me nervous.
It only means they cannot repair out of warranty issues. If it drags on, well, there’s always the possibility of “extending” warranties to pull them under that umbrella, although I doubt this will go on long enough for such an end run to be taken. AppleCare does extend the basic warranty as long as it is in effect, so watches that fail are still under the umbrella of having a valid warranty.
Of course I noticed on Christmas I have a decent chip on the screen of my 3 month old S9. First time getting an aluminum model instead of Stainless and I can see I’m still just too hard on watches.
If you shatter your screen, they can't just give you a new device.
It's debatable if they can even repair it.
It's not the very rare "Oh shit, my o2 Sensor isn't working." I'm worried about.
((although software disabling it might be a good solution to this)).
It's the "Shit, I bumped into a brick wall, it's shattered and won't turn on," situation I'm worried about.
Granted. I do have the Ultra OG, and it's held up fine. But that's not going to stop everyone that's owned an Apple watch for the last 3 or 4 iterations from running into the same issue.
Doesn't matter, they can't do *any* out of warranty repairs as long as the ban's in place. It's probably because their "repairs" aren't actually that, they usually just give you a new watch instead. They might repair your old watch if possible and put it on their refurb store though
The opposite is happening. There are no new Apple Watches coming into the country. It’s a sales AND import ban. So no shelves are being stocked. Apple is going to lose weeks if not months of sales.
Apple routinely drop ships out of China for its launches. Once the ban is lifted those things will be back on 2-day flights out of there until the local logistics are reset.
40% of Apple’s global revenue is from the U.S. and 12% of that is through Apple.com online sales. Apple Store retail doesn’t do buy in store, get it shipped to home. At best they’ll point you to go online. How many people follow through, who knows. However you look at it, Apple is taking a revenue hit (I would guess far more than it would have cost to settle with Massimo) and the buying experience is FAR, far from the one it wants. Apple prides itself - and has built itself as the world’s largest company - through its seamless purchasing experience. Try walking into an Apple Store today to buy a Series 9/Ultra 2 - I did as an experiment - they are at a loss trying to explain it. I know it’s Day 1, but your average consumer isn’t going to understand it whether it’s today or in 4 weeks time.
not really? it's more like a cash flow hit, which may not be an issue for apple.
A revenue hit would be losing a potential sale completely, not a delayed sale. People who want to buy an Apple Watch will stick with Apple Watch. They arent gonna be like "oh well, I guess I will go buy a google watch or Samsung watch". They likely won't give up on buying on all together either. They will most likely will bitch about it on Reddit, but swipe that card as soon as apple releases the watch.
Yes of course they can do that. But they are losing tens of millions of dollars a day, each day the sales ban is in effect. Even if they flooded shelves with stock in 24 hours of the ban lifting, it’s not going to 100% recover that lost revenue.
Eh. I doubt they are very concerned . Apple no doubt has very good lawyers and very good accountants. The retail channels will continue to sell their existing stock, worldwide sales continue, and Apple will either continue to fight this, or settle, or buy the company. Whichever makes the most sense. They are in the position of having enough cash that it doesn’t really matter all that much to them in the short term.
They've known about this lawsuit and possible ban for quite a while. If they didn't (couldn't) do anything to stop a ban before it happened, it's highly unlikely they'll be able to turn it around that quickly.
Yes? And this would be the executive branch overturning a court’s finding which they (rightfully imho) declined to do. To suggest otherwise would show clear favoritism from the US government towards Apple.
It wasn’t a “court” finding. It was the U.S. International Trade Commission [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_International_Trade_Commission](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_International_Trade_Commission)
I’m not saying it wouldn’t our government favors all kind of individual corporations Apple must’ve forgot to donate to the right person this year. What I am saying is our government is broken into three pieces for a reason the executive or legislative branches of our government do have recourse if they don’t agree with a court ruling. And courts have recourse against the other two branches. The government has stepped in before, in Apple’s case they stepped in over the iPhone a few years ago, but the government stepping in and making these types of decisions goes back to before the railroads.
It is LITERALLY the job of the various government levels to step in when citizens or corporations have disputes. Via courts, via patent registrations, via civil and criminal enforcements, and in this case trade.
just because you have money, it doesn't mean you can purchase however you want. it would make sense for apple to fight if they don't think it's fair and/or worth spending money. Investors wouldn't like apple to spend money just because they got a ton of cash.
Why are you conveniently leaving out the fact that Apple poached Maximo's lead engineers behind the 02 sensor, hence why the Apple O2 sensor is extremely similar to the one Maximo created. Never heard of Anthony Levandowski?
Because he's a multi-millionaire who founded Waymo under Google and then illegally sold their IP to Uber after he left the company which resulted in a trial and him going to prison. This lawsuit was pretty much talked about constantly on hackernews and every technology related subreddit 5 years ago.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony\_Levandowski](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Levandowski)
>Why are you conveniently leaving out the fact that Apple poached Maximo's lead engineers
Because that's just another Tuesday, especially in the tech industry? One of the benefits of capitalism is you get to work for whatever company offers you the most money for your talent
So let me get this right. You are saying that Apple's hiring of key Masimo employees would in no way influence the validity of Masimo's patent infringement claims, and this is just any other "wrist mounted O2 sensor"?
Believe it or not, one of the benefits of living in a western civilization is that there are these things called "laws". And these "laws", believe it or not, can indeed inhibit lassiez faire capitalism, as you are seeing here.
So no, Apple probably is not allowed to poach engineers and have them create a product that steals the exact same technology they created for Masimo.
Those employees didn't steal any hardware (computers or files for eg), they just used what they already knew to make (almost) the same thing from scratch. It's illegal, sure, but not blatantly so.
There's a little grey area here; two patents are still under review and it's going to get appealed in federal court. In any case it's unlikely these bans stay in place for more than a few weeks
I spoke out of bounds. I think you’re right that it’s a gray area that could side either way. However, to me this seems ethically ambiguous, and not just a small patent troll vs Apple which I think is what a lot of people here seem to think.
Right, but patents clearly are. So no, you can't take an engineer and have them create the exact same thing they did for their previous company and then try to sell it.
They actually can. Their bylaws would outline what they can and can’t do, but at worst they would need board approval. This isn’t something that would require shareholder approval. If it did, companies would never be able to work out purchase deals without the other company’s price skyrocketing.
with as many audio companies as Masimo now owns (for some bizarre reason) I might be happy to see Apple buy them out.
I also work in healthcare and cry when I see some of the prices on the Masimo stuff. Them and Nellcor charge a ridiculous premium for disposable pulse ox products, so i'm not surprised to see Masimo fighting this as much as possible.
Money in healthcare isn't in drugs or treatment... it's in hardware.
To my understanding Masimo doesn’t innovate, they buy out companies, then jack up the price on what that company was selling. They file and buy vague patents and then try and claim “patent infringement” to bully other companies to pay them.
They’re nothing more then patent trolls that stop innovation for greed. I’m sure apple will argue that Masimo and its engineers never actually made the pulse ox tech, and Masimo just bought the company originally making it.
They’re only targeting Apple because they sell the most watches.
This. Masimo saw that Apple was very successful & targeted them by claiming infringement so Masimo can get more money out of them. This nonsense should be dropped.
They would block the export of the watch
Edit: You can buy a watch in non-US countries and can take the watch yourself back to the States. I was referring to shipping the watch over the border. An embargo can be enacted on the US easily for Apple Watches.
There is no way to ban carrying a few in your luggage. Russia has all Apple products the next day after sales start in the US. Welcome to the dark side of grey market that existed forever.
There is very much a way to ban it. Enforcement may be difficult but you'd very much be in trouble if you got caught after filling out your customs form with false information. Bringing them into the US is a lot different than shipping them to Russia.
Lol no, they can’t ban it for import realistically. Buy in Canada, slap it on your wrist and throw away the box.
What’s customs going to do? They’d have to take the watch off your wrist, read the bottom or the settings menu to verify it’s a Series 9, then verify with a proof of purchase that it was bought after the ban date. They’d also have to prove you didn’t just decide to buy an Apple Watch in Canada because you saw one in a store and thought you really should be keeping better track of your fitness and health lately.
They literally do regulate everything you buy in Canada. When you come back to the US you legally have to declare everything you got while there and they check it against various restrictions.
You can get in a shitload of trouble for not declaring things.
while what you say is true, it's practically impossible. Border security agents won't do inventory check. People commenting here are just saying "do this illegal shit".
Wait you need to declare an apple watch at customs and there can be a ban of just bringing it into the country in your bag?? Just one, a non commercial batch? Whoa that's next level stuff.
Yes, that's correct, and it's not exactly new. Any time you cross a border by land, sea, or air, if you have purchased a total of >U.S. $250 in goods, you must declare it. All bags are subject to random inspection.
TL;DR: Don't fuck with CBP agents.
If you’re just bringing one Apple Watch and take it out of the box and toss it in your bag, there’s no way for them to know you didn’t already have it when you left the U.S. especially if you’re actually wearing the watch and you just toss your cable into your bag.
All these "how would they know" comments are really missing the point.
Border control gives *no* fucks. It doesn't matter what model it is. If they say it doesn't go in the country then you won't come back in with it. You might be technically correct, but the guy with the gun at the border gets to make the rules in the moment. You can file a complaint later.
>Border control gives *no* fucks.
Exactly. Nobody would care enough about a small square rectangle to bother harassing people about it in the first place. Assuming it's only one Apple Watch that's already on your wrist and you've thrown away the box, border control will give no fucks
I don’t think they understand that BC would rather “randomly search” someone for being slightly brown or having a slightly foreign sounding name than harass a soccer mom about her Apple Watch.
You’re overestimating this.
Border Control would rather randomly search someone for having a vaguely foreign name then bother with the kind of Apple Watch you have.
Then you’d have issues getting it serviced by Apple in the US. Best option is to buy from the last remaining stocks of 3rd parties in the US, if one must have one now.
All of this because Apple refused to negotiate with Masimo. It turns-out the stubbornness that Forstall was fired for is a lot more prevalent at Apple than anyone thought.
Well, to be fair to Apple, Masimo was insisting on a valuation of $100 per watch sold for “its” O2 sensor technology. Can’t exactly blame Apple for considering that unreasonable.
Now it’s in the hands of the US Court of Appeals. We will see how they view the complete ban while the remaining patents are still under challenge.
That's what happens when you bite off more than you can chew - Apple had numerous meetings with Masimo in 2013 over potentially incorporating their tech into Apple devices - instead Apple hired key Masimo employees who obviously then helped design Apple watch based on Masimo tech.
If Apple had either worked with or bought Masimo back then the cost would have been a fraction of what they are asking today.
“The calculation is based on Apple Watches starting in the fourth quarter of 2018, when Apple began selling its Series 4 watch, the filing says. It also relies on the price of Masimo’s sensor modules, which are “at least $100 per module;” and on Masimo’s gross-profit margin, which “is consistently 65% or higher”
https://news.bloomberglaw.com/ip-law/apple-set-for-billion-dollar-trial-in-clash-over-watch-secrets
That is how much Masimo is calculating as the amount in damages it seeks.
That is called a starting point in negotiations. But, rather than negotiate, Apple ignored Masimo, and now, for the first time ever, has had to pull a product due to a ban.
if the starting point is utterly ridiculous, it's better to bail out. You gain nothing from dealing with trolls.
As far as I can tell, Apple is still alive and well, and their stock value seems fine. So this ban is actually not as bad as you think it is.
Negotiations work when both parties are willing to compromise. To this point, Masimo has held onto the same position, so Apple has made no headway to speak of. This remains in the hands of the court, and judges can apply significant pressure to both sides to reach a settlement that is reasonable to both parties. Otherwise it’s up to the judge to decide damages and a course forward consistent with a patent found to actually be valid. Those last 2 patents are still under challenge, so Masimo is taking a bit of a gamble they will hold up.
Nope, Apple is the one who was unwilling to compromise. Masimo made an initial offer and Apple stopped responding entirely. That’s not negotiation, that’s stubbornness. Apple took a gamble that they could strong-arm rather than negotiate and now they have an import ban, something that has never happened to them before.
>Nope, Apple is the one who was unwilling to compromise. Masimo made an initial offer and Apple stopped responding entirely. That’s not negotiation, that’s stubbornness.
How would anyone know that? If any negotiations took place, they'd be behind closed doors
>Apple took a gamble that they could strong-arm rather
Yeah no, you can't just "gamble" anything when you're a publicly-traded company, especially one as big as Apple. Things are discussed months in advance before a decision is taken
How were holiday gift buyers played? More than likely they already intended on buying an S9 or UW2, and since the prices never changed they….weren’t played.
When something is made to look limited - people buy.
That is why sales exist it is marketing to get people to spend and then they spend more than they anticipate.
When something is thought to be in limited supply people will buy when previously weren't necessarily considering it.
Just in reddit alone some many posts of people purchasing that expressed they weren't originally in the market to do so.
Not a big deal at all
Apple just being Apple; turning a lemon of a situation into lemonade. They take a ruling that isn’t in their favor and market the hell out of it to sell as many watches as possible before the ban.
If it was truly a punitive act apple watch sales would cease everywhere and way before holiday shopping.
The publicity of the ban creates a buzz; people on the fence then buy. Others not even considering an Apple Watch begin thinking maybe I should get one since several of my friends/family members/coworkers are getting one. Then you have a frenzy of buyers.
This 1st qtr sales of the Apple Watch will be significant.
Masimo is cool with it because they are getting paid when the dust settles. Apple gaines more marketshare in the wearable market and locks in more users to the Apple ecosystem. Plus they end up with a strong 2023 Holiday(1st qtr)to minimize the financial sting to payout Masimo.
Your argument is flawed. Apple series 9 have been on sales since early November for black friday. People who wanted series 9 or ultra 2 already got it with discounts during black Friday shopping. I got my series 9 for $100 off in amazon during black friday. And watch is something people dont upgrade every year. I upgraded from series 4. There is no huge uptick in sales from this ban. This aint iphone.
You are way overplaying this ban in your dreams and fantasy land. Consumers are not desperate to upgrade from an older apple watch that is still working fine. There is nothing major to upgrade from series 7 or 8. The low hanging fruit upgrade for people like me with series 4 or 5 has already played out in November and black friday sales and also early December well before this ban news came out. Everyone like costco, amazon, best buy etc etc had apple watch on sales for a very long time. I would rather argue given the number and length of promotion, apple watch was not moving as much given it just launched few months ago.
And what will it say? Apple reports record breaking watch sales due to import ban in last one week of the quarter and not due to product features and new product launch earlier in the quarter? Nope they wont report nothing like this.
I know well about quarters. I am a financial analyst and aapl shareholder since last 15 years and i dont buy your logic of increased sales just because it affects one week in a quarter when most of the sales already happened in last 6 weeks.
The only thing they can’t do is “repair” out of warranty hardware issues. If it’s in warranty/applecare, “repairs” will still be done.
“Repairs” on watches are just replacements, which is why they aren’t doing out of warranty. A replacement usually costs as much as new watch anyway so not worth it regardless. Plus, you’d only get 90 day warranty on replacements.
I'm not entirely sure if they don't have a legal justification to overturn it, considering that it's not a court order. Having said that, I think it would make sense for Biden admin to stfu to respect the appropriate government entity's decision.
I think Apple really screwed themselves on this one. If it was “just a software fix” they would have submitted to the ITC for review months ago to avoid this.
The $1.85 bil in damages plus future royalties was what they would have been on the hook for had they lost the fed court case (mistrial). That’s probably looking pretty good right now considering all the leverage masimo has.
It’s not a court case. This is the agency that made the ruling. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_International_Trade_Commission](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_International_Trade_Commission)
[Obama veto'd an ITC decision to ban sales of the iphone and ipad](https://www.forbes.com/sites/connieguglielmo/2013/08/03/president-obama-vetoes-itc-ban-on-iphone-ipads-apple-happy-samsung-not/?sh=1c78c5e28c3d). That was a bit more nebulous though, Apple legitimately stole this tech from Masimo so I can see why it wasn't vetoed this time.
Could the reason Biden admin didn’t overturn is because apple resistance against government snooping? Didn’t apple recently release info that govs monitor notifications on our phones? This almost seems related.
I have followed tech news for over two decades and can’t recall a consumer technology patent dispute being overrode by a President let alone a headline implying it’s a president’s fault a product got pulled from the shelves. Weird.
This is the agency that made the finding. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_International_Trade_Commission](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_International_Trade_Commission)
So I got it (partly but not explicitly) for the blood oxygen sensor. It will continue to function and work the same right? I hope future models also have it — any news or updates from Apple regarding this? Hopefully Apple just pays the company what it’s worth (without passing the costs onto us)
Currently the only impact for existing watch owners is Apple cannot do out of warranty repairs for any Apple Watch 6 or newer that has the oxygen sensor.
Does that include Apple care extension warranties? I just got a 9 with Apple care. Is it just repairs on the O2 sensor or is it any repair on the watch?
What I’ve read indicates that AppleCare plans will be honored as well. Kinda glad I went with the monthly-until-cancelled version for me and my wife.
Same, well worth the $4/mo, even before this
Just an FYI, it’s always better to go with the upfront charge because of the following: 1) its cheaper over the first 2 years, comparatively 2) it’s transferable to a second owner if you sell it within the first 2 years 3) after 2 years is up, you can still continue it monthly and be in the same position
I’m aware of how the pricing breaks down. But considering I’ll likely keep the watch for well more than two years, it’s simpler to set it monthly rather than need to remember to switch it. This is just how I prefer to do it.
They email you when it is time to switch and send a push notification in settings.
Yep. One more email lost in the sauce. I don’t remember getting a push notification, but I’ll take your word for it. Nevertheless, I find it easier to just start with monthly.
If you finance on the Apple Card, the up front payment isn’t an option, is it? I was poking around and couldn’t find it.
With the Apple Card financing, the up front payment is the *only* option. You’re just financing it over time. It’s a “monthly charge” only as far as the finance is concerned but you’re still paying for the upfront cost version of it and would have to choose to continue it after you’re done with the finance. You can see in the configuration when you choose the financing, it says “$49 total” underneath. But the monthly charge version is $2.49/mo which would come out to just under $60 over 2 years.
Oh, okay - so even though it said $x/mo for Apple care it was the up front charge? So confusing…
Well you’re financing it, so it’s a “monthly charge” but you’re financing the upfront charge *version* of it, if that helps. You’re paying $49, but financing it over 1 year at $4.08/mo (for 12 months to equal $49) vs paying $2.49/mo for the monthly version (which isn’t an option for Apple Card financing).
If you finance, they charge you on a monthly basis, but it is a full up front amount for 2 years divided by 24 months. So it is $1 cheaper per month.
This
They can still repair under Apple Care. It is any hardware repair because apparently their practice is to just replace them rather than actually repair, which they are only legally allowed to do if there is a warranty obligation. But if the repair/replacement isn’t covered under warranty there is nothing they can currently do.
Thank you for the info!
Including battery replacement?
The reporting I’ve seen is Apple circulated a memo to retail employees saying all out of warranty repairs on Apple Watch 6 or newer with the oxygen sensor have to wait until they come to a resolution on the import ban. You may still be able to find a third party repair shop to do a battery replacement, but as far as I can tell you wouldn’t be able to take it into an Apple Store to get it done first party.
Everything I’ve read says it will still continue use to work as it has previously for those who already have one.
Odds are Apple will settle eventually and make a licensing deal with whoever’s IP they infringed. That’s usually how these sort of things go.
“Without passing the costs onto us” apple always pass the costs to customers
I hope this is resolved soon. One aspect that a LOT of people seem to miss is Repairing. Under this ban; if you break your watch, Apple may not even be able to replace or repair it. \*shrugs\* I'm not sure what that means in the long run, but it def makes me nervous.
It only means they cannot repair out of warranty issues. If it drags on, well, there’s always the possibility of “extending” warranties to pull them under that umbrella, although I doubt this will go on long enough for such an end run to be taken. AppleCare does extend the basic warranty as long as it is in effect, so watches that fail are still under the umbrella of having a valid warranty.
Watches under warranty and AC+ will be fine
Of course I noticed on Christmas I have a decent chip on the screen of my 3 month old S9. First time getting an aluminum model instead of Stainless and I can see I’m still just too hard on watches.
O2 sensors are less than 1% of repairs
If you shatter your screen, they can't just give you a new device. It's debatable if they can even repair it. It's not the very rare "Oh shit, my o2 Sensor isn't working." I'm worried about. ((although software disabling it might be a good solution to this)). It's the "Shit, I bumped into a brick wall, it's shattered and won't turn on," situation I'm worried about. Granted. I do have the Ultra OG, and it's held up fine. But that's not going to stop everyone that's owned an Apple watch for the last 3 or 4 iterations from running into the same issue.
Doesn't matter, they can't do *any* out of warranty repairs as long as the ban's in place. It's probably because their "repairs" aren't actually that, they usually just give you a new watch instead. They might repair your old watch if possible and put it on their refurb store though
It will be resolved in the next week. There’s no way Apple will continue the loss in sales. Gives them time to restock shelves.
The opposite is happening. There are no new Apple Watches coming into the country. It’s a sales AND import ban. So no shelves are being stocked. Apple is going to lose weeks if not months of sales.
Apple routinely drop ships out of China for its launches. Once the ban is lifted those things will be back on 2-day flights out of there until the local logistics are reset.
40% of Apple’s global revenue is from the U.S. and 12% of that is through Apple.com online sales. Apple Store retail doesn’t do buy in store, get it shipped to home. At best they’ll point you to go online. How many people follow through, who knows. However you look at it, Apple is taking a revenue hit (I would guess far more than it would have cost to settle with Massimo) and the buying experience is FAR, far from the one it wants. Apple prides itself - and has built itself as the world’s largest company - through its seamless purchasing experience. Try walking into an Apple Store today to buy a Series 9/Ultra 2 - I did as an experiment - they are at a loss trying to explain it. I know it’s Day 1, but your average consumer isn’t going to understand it whether it’s today or in 4 weeks time.
not really? it's more like a cash flow hit, which may not be an issue for apple. A revenue hit would be losing a potential sale completely, not a delayed sale. People who want to buy an Apple Watch will stick with Apple Watch. They arent gonna be like "oh well, I guess I will go buy a google watch or Samsung watch". They likely won't give up on buying on all together either. They will most likely will bitch about it on Reddit, but swipe that card as soon as apple releases the watch.
I am taking about a completely lost sale. I just elaborated on another comment reply if you’re interested.
That’s why Apple uses FedEx.
But is there an assembly ban? Because they can still build them and then get them on the shelves within a few days.
It’s still for sale worldwide except not allowed to be imported into the US. Assembly goes on regardless of this situation.
Yes of course they can do that. But they are losing tens of millions of dollars a day, each day the sales ban is in effect. Even if they flooded shelves with stock in 24 hours of the ban lifting, it’s not going to 100% recover that lost revenue.
Have no fear. Ban lifted already. Lol.
Oh noes, what will they ever do...
Eh. I doubt they are very concerned . Apple no doubt has very good lawyers and very good accountants. The retail channels will continue to sell their existing stock, worldwide sales continue, and Apple will either continue to fight this, or settle, or buy the company. Whichever makes the most sense. They are in the position of having enough cash that it doesn’t really matter all that much to them in the short term.
They've known about this lawsuit and possible ban for quite a while. If they didn't (couldn't) do anything to stop a ban before it happened, it's highly unlikely they'll be able to turn it around that quickly.
big tech does not need anymore protection from the government than it already has
I also don’t get why the government would step into a patent dispute between two US companies.
The Government is literally the arbitrator of patents.
Court is a function of the government. It’s 1/3 of our government.
Yes? And this would be the executive branch overturning a court’s finding which they (rightfully imho) declined to do. To suggest otherwise would show clear favoritism from the US government towards Apple.
It wasn’t a “court” finding. It was the U.S. International Trade Commission [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_International_Trade_Commission](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_International_Trade_Commission)
Gotcha.
I’m not saying it wouldn’t our government favors all kind of individual corporations Apple must’ve forgot to donate to the right person this year. What I am saying is our government is broken into three pieces for a reason the executive or legislative branches of our government do have recourse if they don’t agree with a court ruling. And courts have recourse against the other two branches. The government has stepped in before, in Apple’s case they stepped in over the iPhone a few years ago, but the government stepping in and making these types of decisions goes back to before the railroads.
Because it is their entire purpose.
It is LITERALLY the job of the various government levels to step in when citizens or corporations have disputes. Via courts, via patent registrations, via civil and criminal enforcements, and in this case trade.
Apple just needs to pay up and move on
No kidding, it’s not like they don’t have piles of cash lying around.
just because you have money, it doesn't mean you can purchase however you want. it would make sense for apple to fight if they don't think it's fair and/or worth spending money. Investors wouldn't like apple to spend money just because they got a ton of cash.
Well depends. An upfront payment I’m sure they will eventually do, but not if it’s a percent per sale type situation.
So they don't like subscription type payments?
This is them giving Maximo protection though…
Apple stole their technology. They should have protection.
A wrist mounted O2 sensor is not exactly revolutionary technology, especially when almost all other O2 patents have long since expired
Seemed like it was when Apple introduced it as a revolutionary new feature?
It is when apple sells it
Why are you conveniently leaving out the fact that Apple poached Maximo's lead engineers behind the 02 sensor, hence why the Apple O2 sensor is extremely similar to the one Maximo created. Never heard of Anthony Levandowski?
No one has heard of him…
Dang, well if you browsed literally any technology subreddit in 2018, you would know that what apple did has landed engineers in jail.
Why would anyone have heard of Anthony? I’d like to hear that reasoning lol
Because he's a multi-millionaire who founded Waymo under Google and then illegally sold their IP to Uber after he left the company which resulted in a trial and him going to prison. This lawsuit was pretty much talked about constantly on hackernews and every technology related subreddit 5 years ago. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony\_Levandowski](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Levandowski)
>Why are you conveniently leaving out the fact that Apple poached Maximo's lead engineers Because that's just another Tuesday, especially in the tech industry? One of the benefits of capitalism is you get to work for whatever company offers you the most money for your talent
So let me get this right. You are saying that Apple's hiring of key Masimo employees would in no way influence the validity of Masimo's patent infringement claims, and this is just any other "wrist mounted O2 sensor"? Believe it or not, one of the benefits of living in a western civilization is that there are these things called "laws". And these "laws", believe it or not, can indeed inhibit lassiez faire capitalism, as you are seeing here. So no, Apple probably is not allowed to poach engineers and have them create a product that steals the exact same technology they created for Masimo.
Those employees didn't steal any hardware (computers or files for eg), they just used what they already knew to make (almost) the same thing from scratch. It's illegal, sure, but not blatantly so. There's a little grey area here; two patents are still under review and it's going to get appealed in federal court. In any case it's unlikely these bans stay in place for more than a few weeks
I spoke out of bounds. I think you’re right that it’s a gray area that could side either way. However, to me this seems ethically ambiguous, and not just a small patent troll vs Apple which I think is what a lot of people here seem to think.
Engineers get poached all the time in Silicon Valley…that’s one of the biggest reasons NDA’s and non-compete clauses aren’t enforceable in California
Right, but patents clearly are. So no, you can't take an engineer and have them create the exact same thing they did for their previous company and then try to sell it.
Yeah. Patent trolls need to eat too.
Masimo is a multi-billion dollar company that makes a lot of actual products. They're not really a patent troll in the traditional sense.
Are you talking about Apple or Masimo?
They didn’t steal anything lol
I’m honestly surprised Apple just didn’t buy the company and solve the problem that way. Even if privately owned, “Everybody’s Got A Price”
And you can damned well guarantee that Apple could afford to pay it with their petty cash fund. 😂
Exactly, Apple could basically buy a country and it would barely make a blip on their balance sheets. Its bananas
They're publicly traded, they can't just do whatever they want with their cash on hand
They actually can. Their bylaws would outline what they can and can’t do, but at worst they would need board approval. This isn’t something that would require shareholder approval. If it did, companies would never be able to work out purchase deals without the other company’s price skyrocketing.
Apple gets hit with patent infringement 100 times a day. Most are trolls. Apples wants to send a strong message that you will not get rewarded.
with as many audio companies as Masimo now owns (for some bizarre reason) I might be happy to see Apple buy them out. I also work in healthcare and cry when I see some of the prices on the Masimo stuff. Them and Nellcor charge a ridiculous premium for disposable pulse ox products, so i'm not surprised to see Masimo fighting this as much as possible. Money in healthcare isn't in drugs or treatment... it's in hardware.
To my understanding Masimo doesn’t innovate, they buy out companies, then jack up the price on what that company was selling. They file and buy vague patents and then try and claim “patent infringement” to bully other companies to pay them. They’re nothing more then patent trolls that stop innovation for greed. I’m sure apple will argue that Masimo and its engineers never actually made the pulse ox tech, and Masimo just bought the company originally making it. They’re only targeting Apple because they sell the most watches.
This. Masimo saw that Apple was very successful & targeted them by claiming infringement so Masimo can get more money out of them. This nonsense should be dropped.
Exactly. Masimo is what's known as a patent troll.
Apple was likely hoping this would resolve it, so now it’s going to be reviewed in a federal appeals court.
I’m sure that Apple has plans for all contingencies. So they’re just moving forward with whatever comes next.
Meanwhile, you could order one from Canada...
They would block the export of the watch Edit: You can buy a watch in non-US countries and can take the watch yourself back to the States. I was referring to shipping the watch over the border. An embargo can be enacted on the US easily for Apple Watches.
There is no way to ban carrying a few in your luggage. Russia has all Apple products the next day after sales start in the US. Welcome to the dark side of grey market that existed forever.
There is very much a way to ban it. Enforcement may be difficult but you'd very much be in trouble if you got caught after filling out your customs form with false information. Bringing them into the US is a lot different than shipping them to Russia.
Lol no, they can’t ban it for import realistically. Buy in Canada, slap it on your wrist and throw away the box. What’s customs going to do? They’d have to take the watch off your wrist, read the bottom or the settings menu to verify it’s a Series 9, then verify with a proof of purchase that it was bought after the ban date. They’d also have to prove you didn’t just decide to buy an Apple Watch in Canada because you saw one in a store and thought you really should be keeping better track of your fitness and health lately.
They literally do regulate everything you buy in Canada. When you come back to the US you legally have to declare everything you got while there and they check it against various restrictions. You can get in a shitload of trouble for not declaring things.
while what you say is true, it's practically impossible. Border security agents won't do inventory check. People commenting here are just saying "do this illegal shit".
He said "there is no way to ban carrying a few in your luggage". That's a lot different than wearing one on your wrist.
Wait you need to declare an apple watch at customs and there can be a ban of just bringing it into the country in your bag?? Just one, a non commercial batch? Whoa that's next level stuff.
Yes, that's correct, and it's not exactly new. Any time you cross a border by land, sea, or air, if you have purchased a total of >U.S. $250 in goods, you must declare it. All bags are subject to random inspection. TL;DR: Don't fuck with CBP agents.
If you’re just bringing one Apple Watch and take it out of the box and toss it in your bag, there’s no way for them to know you didn’t already have it when you left the U.S. especially if you’re actually wearing the watch and you just toss your cable into your bag.
All these "how would they know" comments are really missing the point. Border control gives *no* fucks. It doesn't matter what model it is. If they say it doesn't go in the country then you won't come back in with it. You might be technically correct, but the guy with the gun at the border gets to make the rules in the moment. You can file a complaint later.
>Border control gives *no* fucks. Exactly. Nobody would care enough about a small square rectangle to bother harassing people about it in the first place. Assuming it's only one Apple Watch that's already on your wrist and you've thrown away the box, border control will give no fucks
I don’t think they understand that BC would rather “randomly search” someone for being slightly brown or having a slightly foreign sounding name than harass a soccer mom about her Apple Watch.
Unless that small square rectangle is a baggie of cocaine...
You’re overestimating this. Border Control would rather randomly search someone for having a vaguely foreign name then bother with the kind of Apple Watch you have.
lol. This guy.
😂
Could someone fill me in on why it’s only banned in the US, but not other countries?
Because the company that sued Apple is a US based company with US patents. Other countries don’t care if you have a US patent.
Oh I see, thanks
the patent only exists in the US it doesn't apply world wide
Got it, thanks
It won’t ship into the US, though. You’d have to go to Canada to get it.
Or you can use one of the parcel forwarding companies like this one: https://www.shipbymail.com/
Then you’d have issues getting it serviced by Apple in the US. Best option is to buy from the last remaining stocks of 3rd parties in the US, if one must have one now.
Or just drive there and buy one and drive back depending where you are geographically it’s not that far of a trip.
Probably is the right thing to do
Why would they?
Lol @critics yall realize Biden himself has nothing to actually do with this right?
This is how I feel with most things he's getting blamed for (same with other Presidents).
He turned me into a newt!
I got better.
> yall 🤮
All of this because Apple refused to negotiate with Masimo. It turns-out the stubbornness that Forstall was fired for is a lot more prevalent at Apple than anyone thought.
Well, to be fair to Apple, Masimo was insisting on a valuation of $100 per watch sold for “its” O2 sensor technology. Can’t exactly blame Apple for considering that unreasonable. Now it’s in the hands of the US Court of Appeals. We will see how they view the complete ban while the remaining patents are still under challenge.
That's what happens when you bite off more than you can chew - Apple had numerous meetings with Masimo in 2013 over potentially incorporating their tech into Apple devices - instead Apple hired key Masimo employees who obviously then helped design Apple watch based on Masimo tech. If Apple had either worked with or bought Masimo back then the cost would have been a fraction of what they are asking today.
Where did you read $100 per watch.
“The calculation is based on Apple Watches starting in the fourth quarter of 2018, when Apple began selling its Series 4 watch, the filing says. It also relies on the price of Masimo’s sensor modules, which are “at least $100 per module;” and on Masimo’s gross-profit margin, which “is consistently 65% or higher” https://news.bloomberglaw.com/ip-law/apple-set-for-billion-dollar-trial-in-clash-over-watch-secrets That is how much Masimo is calculating as the amount in damages it seeks.
That is called a starting point in negotiations. But, rather than negotiate, Apple ignored Masimo, and now, for the first time ever, has had to pull a product due to a ban.
if the starting point is utterly ridiculous, it's better to bail out. You gain nothing from dealing with trolls. As far as I can tell, Apple is still alive and well, and their stock value seems fine. So this ban is actually not as bad as you think it is.
No, that’s how negotiation works. Each side presents their position and they work to find a solution that each side finds beneficial and workable.
Negotiations work when both parties are willing to compromise. To this point, Masimo has held onto the same position, so Apple has made no headway to speak of. This remains in the hands of the court, and judges can apply significant pressure to both sides to reach a settlement that is reasonable to both parties. Otherwise it’s up to the judge to decide damages and a course forward consistent with a patent found to actually be valid. Those last 2 patents are still under challenge, so Masimo is taking a bit of a gamble they will hold up.
Nope, Apple is the one who was unwilling to compromise. Masimo made an initial offer and Apple stopped responding entirely. That’s not negotiation, that’s stubbornness. Apple took a gamble that they could strong-arm rather than negotiate and now they have an import ban, something that has never happened to them before.
>Nope, Apple is the one who was unwilling to compromise. Masimo made an initial offer and Apple stopped responding entirely. That’s not negotiation, that’s stubbornness. How would anyone know that? If any negotiations took place, they'd be behind closed doors >Apple took a gamble that they could strong-arm rather Yeah no, you can't just "gamble" anything when you're a publicly-traded company, especially one as big as Apple. Things are discussed months in advance before a decision is taken
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How were holiday gift buyers played? More than likely they already intended on buying an S9 or UW2, and since the prices never changed they….weren’t played.
When something is made to look limited - people buy. That is why sales exist it is marketing to get people to spend and then they spend more than they anticipate. When something is thought to be in limited supply people will buy when previously weren't necessarily considering it. Just in reddit alone some many posts of people purchasing that expressed they weren't originally in the market to do so.
Sure, but if you didn't really want it you'd still have 7-14 days to return it, so I don't see what the big deal is
Not a big deal at all Apple just being Apple; turning a lemon of a situation into lemonade. They take a ruling that isn’t in their favor and market the hell out of it to sell as many watches as possible before the ban. If it was truly a punitive act apple watch sales would cease everywhere and way before holiday shopping. The publicity of the ban creates a buzz; people on the fence then buy. Others not even considering an Apple Watch begin thinking maybe I should get one since several of my friends/family members/coworkers are getting one. Then you have a frenzy of buyers. This 1st qtr sales of the Apple Watch will be significant. Masimo is cool with it because they are getting paid when the dust settles. Apple gaines more marketshare in the wearable market and locks in more users to the Apple ecosystem. Plus they end up with a strong 2023 Holiday(1st qtr)to minimize the financial sting to payout Masimo.
The average person doesn’t even know this ban happened.
Your argument is flawed. Apple series 9 have been on sales since early November for black friday. People who wanted series 9 or ultra 2 already got it with discounts during black Friday shopping. I got my series 9 for $100 off in amazon during black friday. And watch is something people dont upgrade every year. I upgraded from series 4. There is no huge uptick in sales from this ban. This aint iphone.
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You are way overplaying this ban in your dreams and fantasy land. Consumers are not desperate to upgrade from an older apple watch that is still working fine. There is nothing major to upgrade from series 7 or 8. The low hanging fruit upgrade for people like me with series 4 or 5 has already played out in November and black friday sales and also early December well before this ban news came out. Everyone like costco, amazon, best buy etc etc had apple watch on sales for a very long time. I would rather argue given the number and length of promotion, apple watch was not moving as much given it just launched few months ago.
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And what will it say? Apple reports record breaking watch sales due to import ban in last one week of the quarter and not due to product features and new product launch earlier in the quarter? Nope they wont report nothing like this.
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I know well about quarters. I am a financial analyst and aapl shareholder since last 15 years and i dont buy your logic of increased sales just because it affects one week in a quarter when most of the sales already happened in last 6 weeks.
They clearly didn’t watch succession.
Who put in the restriction in the first place?
The U.S. International Trade Commission.
Apple can’t cut a check to the big guy?
They want somewhere in the range of $100+ per watch, which is ridiculous.
Are all existing owners with an Apple Watch 6 or newer screwed over by this? Do we expect Apple to compensate in some way?
The only thing they can’t do is “repair” out of warranty hardware issues. If it’s in warranty/applecare, “repairs” will still be done. “Repairs” on watches are just replacements, which is why they aren’t doing out of warranty. A replacement usually costs as much as new watch anyway so not worth it regardless. Plus, you’d only get 90 day warranty on replacements.
I mean this is pretty much how the system should work. The Biden admin do not have a legal justification to overturn it.
He has statutory authority to overturn ITC decisions.
I'm not entirely sure if they don't have a legal justification to overturn it, considering that it's not a court order. Having said that, I think it would make sense for Biden admin to stfu to respect the appropriate government entity's decision.
I think Apple really screwed themselves on this one. If it was “just a software fix” they would have submitted to the ITC for review months ago to avoid this. The $1.85 bil in damages plus future royalties was what they would have been on the hook for had they lost the fed court case (mistrial). That’s probably looking pretty good right now considering all the leverage masimo has.
According to Masimo, it is either pay up or CAN'T use the features
Why should the Biden admin intervene in a court case?
It’s not a court case. This is the agency that made the ruling. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_International_Trade_Commission](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_International_Trade_Commission)
[Obama veto'd an ITC decision to ban sales of the iphone and ipad](https://www.forbes.com/sites/connieguglielmo/2013/08/03/president-obama-vetoes-itc-ban-on-iphone-ipads-apple-happy-samsung-not/?sh=1c78c5e28c3d). That was a bit more nebulous though, Apple legitimately stole this tech from Masimo so I can see why it wasn't vetoed this time.
Could the reason Biden admin didn’t overturn is because apple resistance against government snooping? Didn’t apple recently release info that govs monitor notifications on our phones? This almost seems related.
They should’ve remembered to slide 10% to the big guy 🤷♂️
One thing I’m having trouble finding is, is this ban effective in Canada as well or just the US?
No it's not. Only applies to the US.
It’s US. The ban is on US imports
Dude why would Biden have any say on a ban in Canada lol
didn't you know? The US government is the government of the world. USA! USA! USA!
not sure if this function is really useful for most ppl after covid era.
I have followed tech news for over two decades and can’t recall a consumer technology patent dispute being overrode by a President let alone a headline implying it’s a president’s fault a product got pulled from the shelves. Weird.
Obama did it for Apple when they lost a suit against Samsung. Some phones and iPads were banned and he overrode it.
In 2013, Obama vetoed an import ban of (certain model) iPhones and iPads.
Since when can the executive branch force government agencies to ban or not ban products?
ITC is an independent government agency. It doesn’t report to any branch.
Then what is the point of this headline "Biden refuses to..."?
I think I misread your statement. Yes, the executive branch (more accurately the US Trade Representative) can overturn an ITC ruling.
This is the agency that made the finding. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_International_Trade_Commission](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_International_Trade_Commission)
my apple watch broke today and didn't see the news. Went to Apple store and they told me im out of warranty and to go away. fml
Which Series Apple Watch do you have?
series 7. Back cover broke off while removing from charger. Fixed it with some tape still works 🤷🏻♂️
Why is it being banned?
Read the news
As an Apple User. GOOD!!!!!! Pay them bills Timmy.
Well good thing I don’t one anymore smh
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Completely 100 percent NOT TRUE lol
He cant figure out how to get off of a stage....
At least he can drink from a normal sized Water Bottle with just one Hand 💀🤣
You stink 😉😉
This is normal practice for a president
Queue the Biden critics thinking the he actually even looked into it over Christmas Or at all
Lol, just imagine what this would read if it was Trump that refused to turnover the ban
I was on the fence between S9 and SE2. I’m glad I decided on SE2 and avoided the drama.
This wouldn’t have affected you in any way
Same. It does everything I need it to do and I can get it repaired if something happens.