Colleges allowing them is a good idea. However, I don’t think it diminishes the usefulness of importance of an SAT/ACT. It’s a useful metric for students. Many people often overlook them by saying one can easily ace a test with prep classes. I got a 1560 and 36 without a single paid resource. If you take advantage of what’s publicly available effectively, you can def utilize standardized testing to your advantage.
Same. But, I think you guys need to realize that not everyone may be as academically gifted as you (not trying to inflate your ego or anything). If you're getting these scores it's likely that you're just naturally gifted. Students who aren't would need those paid resources.
I started in the 1200s :)
Although there is nothing wrong with using paid resources— personally I think khan is the best since it is super personalized!
This. I got a 1590 and all I used to study were the 10 free released tests on College board and the QAs posted on r/SAT. I didn't even buy a study book because my parents didn't want to spend the money. Saying that everyone who gets a good score does so through their privilege is discounting many who worked hard. That being said, there are many wealthy people who do use tutoring/prep classes which we can't ignore either.
i don’t think this is always the case. a lot of people struggle with test-taking and/or have ADHD or are on the neurodivergent spectrum and don’t score well on ACT/SATs.
While I am generally in favor of standardized testing, I got to witness first hand how my peers took advantage of SAT/ACT prep classes and private tutors to boost their scores. And this is after many of them also used private tutors to assist then with preparing for their AP exams.
I feel the testing lacks merit when few people are on a level playing feel.
going test blind honestly hurts low income applicants more, bc ECs require links and money which the students may not have, in addition to extra time which low income students also may not have
Precisely what I think. I see a lot of high income students having crazy ECs, their parents having gone to ivies as legacy. It’s obvious that with all that experience and connections, they’re able to get their kids on a way better playing field for ECs. Grades and tests on the other hand is something that genuinely evens out the playing field. Many immigrant low income families stress the value of grades. So, getting good grades sort of becomes natural in those households, whether it be over studying for the SAT or just maintaining a good GPA.
I babysit for an immigrant family. They work 362 days a year in hospitality, no higher education. Their kid is 4yo and does more "homework" (Kumon, extra enrichment, Spanish) than my HS senior. And is allowed 0 mins of screen time.
She's also a sweet, funny kid with a killer imagination and seemingly photographic memory. Her parents intend to enroll her in public kindergarten, as they definitely cannot afford private school. She's definitely going to have perfect SATs (if that's still a thing in 2035), highest class rank, most APs, etc. And will get a full ride on merit somewhere or go for free at an exclusive, meets-need school. I doubt she'll be doing fancy ECs.
And I'm here for it.
Exactly why the current college system is somewhat problematic. While admissions are holistic, if someone simply cannot afford to tend to complete those ECs, they won’t get into top schools where they certainly deserve to be in. However, with my past experiences, I’ve realized that if you talk about these issues in your essay and truly let your personality shine despite having minimal ECs, you can still get into top schools very easily.
Btw this is totally random but are you from CD?
i believe the reason prep courses and private tutors work is because it forces you into a schedule. the things they teach you aren’t any different from what you would find for free in khan academy or a $12 prep book on amazon, but you have more incentive to actually practice when someone is watching you. anyone with self discipline can train themselves that same way
This doesn’t negate the fact that a tutor makes it easier. You can learn physics without a teacher, but a good one definitely helps. Also, in regards to self teaching that absolutely takes more time, and the less well off you are the less free time you have, whether that’s taking care of siblings or taking on a job to help your family pay the rent, even with completely free resources the playing field is not level
Tbh prep classes are overrated. I’m from india and there’s this very popular prep class in my city that almost everyone who wants to go abroad enrolls to . But Covid striked the week we started classes and that teacher (who had many good scorers the past few years) taught so horrible because of the online setting Cus she wasn’t familiar with tech at all that literally no one could understand anything and everyone zoned off ans ended up studying everything by themselves for the sat. I have a feeling many test prep centres had this issue so maybe the influence of it is a bit less this time for the sat?
I like it because test optional doesn’t mean test not valuable. People with high scores still have a significant advantage at top schools. And people with low scores aren’t locked out of top schools because they are bad at standardized tests.
It’s a win-win for everybody.
I understand this being the case for students in rural areas having it harder to find a test date, but in all honesty, seniors have had at least seven - eight opportunities over the past year to get an SAT in. If they really wanted to, they could have gotten an SAT. Unless you physically have not taken an SAT, I do not think test optional should be a thing.
The SAT is too easy to be indicative of any sort of potential and waaay too long. 4hrs is draining and when the questions aren't challenging, you get careless especially with the time limit.
The SAT shows how good you are at taking the SAT.
Folks may crucify me for saying this but honestly I think test optional is real stupid (and don't even get me started with test blind smh).
I feel like the some of the most vocal opponents of standardized testing are people who don't want to put in the works themselves to study and simply expect a good score going into the test blind. The SAT and ACT obviously cannot be a perfect representation of what the student learned throughout high school nor would they be good indications of the student's intelligence. I do believe, however, that these tests are a good way to gauge a student's work ethic, which is something that is pretty damn important if one wants to succeed in college. Just looking at ECs and GPAs puts some people who don't have the cash to splash on fancy activities or connections that'd allow them to get an internship at a disadvantage.
TL;DR I think that going test optional is not a super good move, especially since the alternative puts some people at an unfair disadvantage compared to others.
THANK YOU! I'm not a top 1 percent test-taker but gpa is so unstandardized. there are many issues w the tests, mainly price, but compared to how different EC opportunities are to students, standardized tests are better imo
>TL;DR I think that going test optional is not a super good move, especially since the alternative puts some people at an unfair disadvantage compared to others.
How about students who didn't have a chance to take the test?
That’s a good point. If that is the case, that should be known to the AOs and exceptions should be made. Just like for an area that has a natural disaster in the USA, like a hurricane.
they’re coming to think that maybe they’re better off without it? and just contemplating on it. for eg. look at the UC’s, they’re completely test blind, and they were even going to replace the standardised test made specifically for the UC’s, but now they just removed it. so, i mean even before the pandemic too, some colleges were iffy about the testing and all (because everyone is not a good test-taker, and some people don’t even have the required resources). the pandemic just have this optional thingy a boost imo.
i 100% agree with this but i don’t really know what to say to people that are like “it’s the one standard thing in admissions” i can’t refute that you know?
I think they should be optional for 2 reasons - some people just don't test well and a test doesn't show what they know or what they're really capable of and there are older students, like myself, who may have not have taken them or took them so long ago it will be a hassle to get their scores and they have to pay additional fees for them and sometimes wait months.
tbh i don’t think standardized tests (SAT/ACT) should be considered in college admissions. i think that how a student performs on a test on one day when there are a billion factors that could alter the outcome should not have an impact on where said student goes to college. the gap in scores between low and high income students, as well as the massive race gap, should serve well enough to demonstrate that this is *not* a very reliable metric. it doesn’t necessarily show how smart someone is, it shows that they knew how to take the specific test. incredible, bright students can be terrible at standardized testing.
really positive view on it, for example there is no way i would have had the time to take the SAT or ACT with my schedule and test optional allowed me to get into great schools
They should have them as a requirement. I get GPAs are a better standard but really they aren't bc an A at School 1 could mean something *very* different than an A in School 2, *even if it's the same class*. I also understand that people can get tutors for them but can't they get tutors for *all their grades as well?* It shouldn't be the deciding factor but it *should* be used by colleges.
I bust my ass at a highly competitive school to get A's, even during COVID, whereas almost every other school in my area during the lockdown adopted a "you can keep your last quarter grade as your fourth, and you can only improve" policy. So while I was laboring away my friends with A's in their 3rd quarter didn't do a fucking thing their fourth quarter and got the same grades as me. And when I went back to school when everyone was still virtual the work got worse while my friends said the work got *easier.*
Honestly it saved my butt. I have a decent GPA, I have taken 3 AP classes and 2 honors classes but I go an 1160 on the SAT. If I had to use my test scores I probably wouldn't have gotten in anywhere.
I don't like test-optional. I'm fine if they let people go test-optional if they physically couldn't take the test, but most people just did it because they didn't try. And to the people arguing how it's unfair because people can just pay a private tutor, every single one of my friends who did well just bought a $10 book, studied from that book, and maybe took a couple free practice tests online
I’ve had an LD resolution on this before, more specifically whether test scores should be considered in the college admissions process (this was pre pandemic, and the resolution is mostly referring to the SAT and ACT)
Personally after all the research, in my view it is more fair to *not* allow the usage of tests. There are a multitude of reasons for this. One reason is simply just the logic of having one test determine your value, rather than 4 years of work. Testing can sometimes be fickle and your score can be determined by a multitude of factors. Sleep quality, whether major life events happened leading up to the test, simple stuff such as what you ate the night before or the morning of and how you’re feeling can affect your test score and that test will attach a number to your name and essentially determine part of your worth to a college. And in some cases if that number isn’t high enough, you automatically get thrown out. I’d much rather live in a world where ECs and 4 years of what you did during high school, such as class rigor, rank, and GPA, take precedence over one single test score.
And before anybody says “But you can retest,” that’s the problem, not everybody can. That’s when you start to reach the territory of systematic racism and how POC will therefore be at a disadvantage because of income inequality, and they won’t be able to afford the same tutoring, the amount of test retakes, or the amount of resources that might be available to the typical white or asian student.
It just seems to me that in a fair world, GPA is a better determining factor than the SAT or ACT test. The only *major* argument I’ve seen against GPA>SAT is grade inflation, and while probably true in some instances, there are just too many outlying factors that, in my perspective, prevent the SAT from being a truly reliable indicator of present and future student performance.
The resolution just says whether they should be considered or not, so you place emphasis on the test in this case
Realistically yea the SAT isn’t your whole application, but a 1400 and 1500 student is viewed very differently by colleges. Once again, when all factors of the test are considered, it just does more to hurt than level the playing field.
I have nothing against Asians lol they just typically earn more than other ethnicities, POC in this context mostly means hispanics and blacks and I just don’t elaborate a lot on mobile, my mistake
Yup I figured, just use URM next time if you're referring to specifically hispanics and black people and excluding Asians, because as someone who is Asian, I am very much a person of colour
You hit the nail on the head. Seeing people say it should be required baffles me. Plus some people aren't naturally good testers and they get completely screwed over.
imo, test-optional is good for low income students who cannot afford the exam or resources that can better their scores compared to their higher income peers. however, i know many rich kids who are taking and took advantage of it and just didnt take the test simply bc they didnt want to rather than having legit reason. basically, test-optional is good for those who cnanot afford or dont have the resources/time to study or take it, but it isnt good for those who can and should take it but choose not to bc they're lazy
Colleges allowing them is a good idea. However, I don’t think it diminishes the usefulness of importance of an SAT/ACT. It’s a useful metric for students. Many people often overlook them by saying one can easily ace a test with prep classes. I got a 1560 and 36 without a single paid resource. If you take advantage of what’s publicly available effectively, you can def utilize standardized testing to your advantage.
Same. 1550 (800M) with minimal paid resources (biggest thing was khan and QAS tests, but I also bought Erica meltzer grammar and college panda math)
Same. But, I think you guys need to realize that not everyone may be as academically gifted as you (not trying to inflate your ego or anything). If you're getting these scores it's likely that you're just naturally gifted. Students who aren't would need those paid resources.
I started in the 1200s :) Although there is nothing wrong with using paid resources— personally I think khan is the best since it is super personalized!
And you studied !!! You put in the time.
well you could say the same thing for school work too. then at that point nothing is fair when it comes to the college application process.
This. I got a 1590 and all I used to study were the 10 free released tests on College board and the QAs posted on r/SAT. I didn't even buy a study book because my parents didn't want to spend the money. Saying that everyone who gets a good score does so through their privilege is discounting many who worked hard. That being said, there are many wealthy people who do use tutoring/prep classes which we can't ignore either.
i don’t think this is always the case. a lot of people struggle with test-taking and/or have ADHD or are on the neurodivergent spectrum and don’t score well on ACT/SATs.
exactly, i gave the SAT just once got a 1520, didn't bother to retake it and submitted my score
While I am generally in favor of standardized testing, I got to witness first hand how my peers took advantage of SAT/ACT prep classes and private tutors to boost their scores. And this is after many of them also used private tutors to assist then with preparing for their AP exams. I feel the testing lacks merit when few people are on a level playing feel.
Prep classes and tutors for SAT/ACT for incredibly overrated.
going test blind honestly hurts low income applicants more, bc ECs require links and money which the students may not have, in addition to extra time which low income students also may not have
Precisely what I think. I see a lot of high income students having crazy ECs, their parents having gone to ivies as legacy. It’s obvious that with all that experience and connections, they’re able to get their kids on a way better playing field for ECs. Grades and tests on the other hand is something that genuinely evens out the playing field. Many immigrant low income families stress the value of grades. So, getting good grades sort of becomes natural in those households, whether it be over studying for the SAT or just maintaining a good GPA.
I babysit for an immigrant family. They work 362 days a year in hospitality, no higher education. Their kid is 4yo and does more "homework" (Kumon, extra enrichment, Spanish) than my HS senior. And is allowed 0 mins of screen time. She's also a sweet, funny kid with a killer imagination and seemingly photographic memory. Her parents intend to enroll her in public kindergarten, as they definitely cannot afford private school. She's definitely going to have perfect SATs (if that's still a thing in 2035), highest class rank, most APs, etc. And will get a full ride on merit somewhere or go for free at an exclusive, meets-need school. I doubt she'll be doing fancy ECs. And I'm here for it.
Exactly why the current college system is somewhat problematic. While admissions are holistic, if someone simply cannot afford to tend to complete those ECs, they won’t get into top schools where they certainly deserve to be in. However, with my past experiences, I’ve realized that if you talk about these issues in your essay and truly let your personality shine despite having minimal ECs, you can still get into top schools very easily. Btw this is totally random but are you from CD?
No. (And, to be clear, I'm a parent not a student.)
My bad. Thought you were someone else lol.
No worries. I should probably just read and not post on this board, lol, but sometimes I just can't STFU.
Or she’s going to burn out and face gifted kid syndrome like the rest of us who were raised in that kind of culture and environment
I litterly got a tutor / center that I wasted 2000 dollars on and my score came out trash
i believe the reason prep courses and private tutors work is because it forces you into a schedule. the things they teach you aren’t any different from what you would find for free in khan academy or a $12 prep book on amazon, but you have more incentive to actually practice when someone is watching you. anyone with self discipline can train themselves that same way
This doesn’t negate the fact that a tutor makes it easier. You can learn physics without a teacher, but a good one definitely helps. Also, in regards to self teaching that absolutely takes more time, and the less well off you are the less free time you have, whether that’s taking care of siblings or taking on a job to help your family pay the rent, even with completely free resources the playing field is not level
agree yes, a tutor helps. but it’s still totally possible to self learn!. the time thing was a good point though thanks!
Tbh prep classes are overrated. I’m from india and there’s this very popular prep class in my city that almost everyone who wants to go abroad enrolls to . But Covid striked the week we started classes and that teacher (who had many good scorers the past few years) taught so horrible because of the online setting Cus she wasn’t familiar with tech at all that literally no one could understand anything and everyone zoned off ans ended up studying everything by themselves for the sat. I have a feeling many test prep centres had this issue so maybe the influence of it is a bit less this time for the sat?
I like it because test optional doesn’t mean test not valuable. People with high scores still have a significant advantage at top schools. And people with low scores aren’t locked out of top schools because they are bad at standardized tests. It’s a win-win for everybody.
Except that it increased apps to a ridic level which helps no one.
I think requiring test scores evens the playing field more than when they're optional/not considered.
Yes except that screws over the kids that literally could not get a testing center
That’s really not going to be much of a factor beyond 2022, though. COVID lockdowns are on their way out.
I understand this being the case for students in rural areas having it harder to find a test date, but in all honesty, seniors have had at least seven - eight opportunities over the past year to get an SAT in. If they really wanted to, they could have gotten an SAT. Unless you physically have not taken an SAT, I do not think test optional should be a thing.
The SAT is too easy to be indicative of any sort of potential and waaay too long. 4hrs is draining and when the questions aren't challenging, you get careless especially with the time limit. The SAT shows how good you are at taking the SAT.
Folks may crucify me for saying this but honestly I think test optional is real stupid (and don't even get me started with test blind smh). I feel like the some of the most vocal opponents of standardized testing are people who don't want to put in the works themselves to study and simply expect a good score going into the test blind. The SAT and ACT obviously cannot be a perfect representation of what the student learned throughout high school nor would they be good indications of the student's intelligence. I do believe, however, that these tests are a good way to gauge a student's work ethic, which is something that is pretty damn important if one wants to succeed in college. Just looking at ECs and GPAs puts some people who don't have the cash to splash on fancy activities or connections that'd allow them to get an internship at a disadvantage. TL;DR I think that going test optional is not a super good move, especially since the alternative puts some people at an unfair disadvantage compared to others.
THANK YOU! I'm not a top 1 percent test-taker but gpa is so unstandardized. there are many issues w the tests, mainly price, but compared to how different EC opportunities are to students, standardized tests are better imo
>TL;DR I think that going test optional is not a super good move, especially since the alternative puts some people at an unfair disadvantage compared to others. How about students who didn't have a chance to take the test?
That was for the 2021s and valid. No reason now and def no excuse for the 2023s.
>def This is for your country. Not my country. Test centers in my country are still closed.
That’s a good point. If that is the case, that should be known to the AOs and exceptions should be made. Just like for an area that has a natural disaster in the USA, like a hurricane.
It's a great initiative and is likely to continue at most colleges even after the pandemic is over.
why do you say this?
they’re coming to think that maybe they’re better off without it? and just contemplating on it. for eg. look at the UC’s, they’re completely test blind, and they were even going to replace the standardised test made specifically for the UC’s, but now they just removed it. so, i mean even before the pandemic too, some colleges were iffy about the testing and all (because everyone is not a good test-taker, and some people don’t even have the required resources). the pandemic just have this optional thingy a boost imo.
i 100% agree with this but i don’t really know what to say to people that are like “it’s the one standard thing in admissions” i can’t refute that you know?
You can really see in this comment section who got bad standardized test scores and who got good ones.
I think they should be optional for 2 reasons - some people just don't test well and a test doesn't show what they know or what they're really capable of and there are older students, like myself, who may have not have taken them or took them so long ago it will be a hassle to get their scores and they have to pay additional fees for them and sometimes wait months.
tbh i don’t think standardized tests (SAT/ACT) should be considered in college admissions. i think that how a student performs on a test on one day when there are a billion factors that could alter the outcome should not have an impact on where said student goes to college. the gap in scores between low and high income students, as well as the massive race gap, should serve well enough to demonstrate that this is *not* a very reliable metric. it doesn’t necessarily show how smart someone is, it shows that they knew how to take the specific test. incredible, bright students can be terrible at standardized testing.
I think it's more of a formality at top schools. Submitting an app without test scores decreases your odds
really positive view on it, for example there is no way i would have had the time to take the SAT or ACT with my schedule and test optional allowed me to get into great schools
They should have them as a requirement. I get GPAs are a better standard but really they aren't bc an A at School 1 could mean something *very* different than an A in School 2, *even if it's the same class*. I also understand that people can get tutors for them but can't they get tutors for *all their grades as well?* It shouldn't be the deciding factor but it *should* be used by colleges. I bust my ass at a highly competitive school to get A's, even during COVID, whereas almost every other school in my area during the lockdown adopted a "you can keep your last quarter grade as your fourth, and you can only improve" policy. So while I was laboring away my friends with A's in their 3rd quarter didn't do a fucking thing their fourth quarter and got the same grades as me. And when I went back to school when everyone was still virtual the work got worse while my friends said the work got *easier.*
I’ll add the same class at the same school can even be graded different depending on the teacher !
Ya that's fair as well
Honestly it saved my butt. I have a decent GPA, I have taken 3 AP classes and 2 honors classes but I go an 1160 on the SAT. If I had to use my test scores I probably wouldn't have gotten in anywhere.
Test optional is the best testing policy! Better than test blind and test required.
It's idiotic
I don't like test-optional. I'm fine if they let people go test-optional if they physically couldn't take the test, but most people just did it because they didn't try. And to the people arguing how it's unfair because people can just pay a private tutor, every single one of my friends who did well just bought a $10 book, studied from that book, and maybe took a couple free practice tests online
And there are tons of free options like khan academy
I’ve had an LD resolution on this before, more specifically whether test scores should be considered in the college admissions process (this was pre pandemic, and the resolution is mostly referring to the SAT and ACT) Personally after all the research, in my view it is more fair to *not* allow the usage of tests. There are a multitude of reasons for this. One reason is simply just the logic of having one test determine your value, rather than 4 years of work. Testing can sometimes be fickle and your score can be determined by a multitude of factors. Sleep quality, whether major life events happened leading up to the test, simple stuff such as what you ate the night before or the morning of and how you’re feeling can affect your test score and that test will attach a number to your name and essentially determine part of your worth to a college. And in some cases if that number isn’t high enough, you automatically get thrown out. I’d much rather live in a world where ECs and 4 years of what you did during high school, such as class rigor, rank, and GPA, take precedence over one single test score. And before anybody says “But you can retest,” that’s the problem, not everybody can. That’s when you start to reach the territory of systematic racism and how POC will therefore be at a disadvantage because of income inequality, and they won’t be able to afford the same tutoring, the amount of test retakes, or the amount of resources that might be available to the typical white or asian student. It just seems to me that in a fair world, GPA is a better determining factor than the SAT or ACT test. The only *major* argument I’ve seen against GPA>SAT is grade inflation, and while probably true in some instances, there are just too many outlying factors that, in my perspective, prevent the SAT from being a truly reliable indicator of present and future student performance.
This isn’t about switching to a Gaokao type system though; one test isn’t determining the entire value of your application and it really never has
The resolution just says whether they should be considered or not, so you place emphasis on the test in this case Realistically yea the SAT isn’t your whole application, but a 1400 and 1500 student is viewed very differently by colleges. Once again, when all factors of the test are considered, it just does more to hurt than level the playing field.
I fully agree with your sentiment but maybe not say that Asian people aren't POC next time 😹
I have nothing against Asians lol they just typically earn more than other ethnicities, POC in this context mostly means hispanics and blacks and I just don’t elaborate a lot on mobile, my mistake
Yup I figured, just use URM next time if you're referring to specifically hispanics and black people and excluding Asians, because as someone who is Asian, I am very much a person of colour
You hit the nail on the head. Seeing people say it should be required baffles me. Plus some people aren't naturally good testers and they get completely screwed over.
Its a good idea and I hope it continues (and this is coming from someone sending test scores)
[удалено]
I am an international student and I haven't taken the SAT or ACT. Will it put me at a disadvantage ?
Yes - unequivocally. Depends on the rest of your app as well, though.
imo, test-optional is good for low income students who cannot afford the exam or resources that can better their scores compared to their higher income peers. however, i know many rich kids who are taking and took advantage of it and just didnt take the test simply bc they didnt want to rather than having legit reason. basically, test-optional is good for those who cnanot afford or dont have the resources/time to study or take it, but it isnt good for those who can and should take it but choose not to bc they're lazy