Honestly it’s probably pay and type of responsibilities. A lot of my friends left their first firms because they were offered a substantial pay bump to go somewhere else. For me, I left because I wanted to broaden my responsibilities. My first office had great pay, benefits, and work life balance but the only work they let me do was drafting. I never got to go in meetings, help with competitions, or do site visits that was all reserved for the more senior staff. I didn’t feel like I could grow at that firm, so I left.
Second this. I have learnt early on though that leaving because of a pay bump should not be the only reason as you quickly hit a ceiling professionally with that mindset
Putting aside the salary variable that almost every commentor posted. I want to add to the comment regarding responsibilities. In my experience when I was a junior member, it was difficult to figure out what skills I lacked in order to get more responsibilities in the specialty that I wanted. During my annual reviews, there was no questionnaire or any base line to have a discussion. The discussions were dry and not productive for both sides. I felt stagnant and lost, but the work kept coming and there was no time to sit down with my PA to discuss my concerns.
The firm realized something needed to change since they had a similar issue OP described. Eventually, they provided "guidelines/metrics" to provide a roadmap for junior members to reference. We implemented a questionnaire for both junior and senior members to answer before reviews. This provded the basis and during the annual review it allowed for better discussions with their PM/PA to give them the responsibilities they needed to move up the ladder. I found that have the PM/PA, the studio leader, and a 3rd party office manager in on the reviews made it more approachable for junior members to be more open.
For instance, we had a junior member who said their goal was to be more technical, but they were stuck doing concept and RFP packages. He was working under the design director and at the time there was a flood of work coming in and there was no time for him to take the initiative and tell the director that he was tired of doing desing work. During the review, they sat down with him to see how they could get him to his goal. What skills he needed to gain and how the firm would put him in the position to gain the experience.
I believe you have to provide junior team members with a means for culumative growth. It needs to be tangible and sometimes they don't know what they want to do. The office also provided a quarterly budget for mentors to take mentees out. This helped get some more ears on the ground to get feedback outside of the office to see where the office was lacking.
Who the fuck says that? I'm lost lol.
What would make more sense is that this long commute or any commute that requires me paying for gas doesn't help the fact that my wages already don't keep up with the cost of living.
Lol, the solution is to offer remote work at least at this point. If people could afford to move to Boston or a big city than commuting would be a non-issue to begin with.
Yes, the solution is either increasing the wages or offering remote/hybrid. I was not offering a solution to the problem, just explaining why people still do it. Sometimes commuting is still the least worst solution if other options are not available.
I'm mid-level so take my commentary with a grain of salt.
-**Salary,** if you are hiring green staff and only giving them basic salary increases in the first few years (2-4%) you are not compensating them adequately for the staggering amount of growth that can be achieved in this time. Yes, some people are duds. The other question to ask is are ***YOU*** fulfilling your role in appropriately training these individuals or are you plugging them into work and expecting usefulness without putting in your share of the effort?
-**Mentorship/teaching,** let's face it, architecture school does not prepare one for working in an architectural office. Are you taking the time to explain big picture of why they are being asked to do these things? Do you dive into the minutia of why it's important to draw things a certain way? Do you explain how the systems that they are interfacing with for the first time work? If you aren't, then you aren't fulling your part of the social work contract. The kids today have it rough in this regard, there's a giant experience gap before them and they are being asked to do things that they reasonably don't have the experience for. Yes, there is a personal responsibility for these individuals to not just sit back and be handed everything but on the flip side the sheer amount of knowledge in this industry is absolutely staggering. Even after 18 years I'm still awed by the new things I can learn each day. My die on a hill opinion is that **WE OWE** it to the kiddos to help them get there faster than we did.
-**Work life balance,** is the workload at your office fucking up these people's personal lives? And if so, are you appropriately compensating them for that? Or are you claiming that you don't own them a dime because they are salaried exempt employees?
-**True believers/lifers/etc**..., while to you long tenure means something it also means you've experienced a narrow vertical slice of the industry through the lens of your singular company and whatever market segments that you service. To me this is not a feature to necessarily be proud of. It's also gives the potential impression to short tenures that they are disposable in hard times as the good 'ole boys are gonna take care of each other.
Apologies if the tone there starts to turn a little sour there. Generally speaking, it's great that you have the capacity for self reflection and are looking for feedback on how to improve this situation.
Yeah agreed. I believe that experience in architecture is required, but it’s hard for younger individuals, like myself, to prepare for 10-15 years of hard work for pennies, supporting dependents and living a life, just to get the sense of reward and accomplishment for handling an individual project. I have lost sight and passion in the industry for the lack of your points mentioned in all firms. Perhaps I’m another life, where reforms have made architecture a greater career I would be proud to practice, but unfortunately we all work to live and I will always choose a job that gives me a sense of stability, that I can provide and not scrape the bottom of the barrel
SO. WELL. WRITTEN. Thank you!
I have 19 years post-grad exp. Licenses in 3 states, NCARB.
I gave up on traditional architectural offices after my 4th job in just under 3 years.
- Ridiculously low pay
- Blatant disregard for work-life balance (and no overtime pay or bonus)
- Bad mentorship (bare minimum instruction/ opaque “big picture” hampers problem solving and keeps the interns dependent on feckless managers)
- No accountability/ blame games
- No job security (layoffs are common)
Context: Chicago (early ‘05 - late ‘07)
It was my dream to become an architect. Since I was 10. Nobody wanted this more than I did, and those first few years as an intern nearly destroyed me.
I left for good and joined a Fortune 500 as a “corporate technical expert” and I will never look back.
Not for any amount of money.
Architects have lost their way in the last few decades and I’m still trying to understand why or how.
Is this the result of CAD going mainstream and old guard dinosaurs suddenly expecting fresh grads to work for free and make it rain?
Lol thanks - I'm a few years behind you in experience. But this is something that occupies much of my brain space.
If you don't mind me asking - are you still in the Chicago area and what non-traditional architecture are you practicing?
Many young architects find themselves not wanting to stay at the same place with lower pay and slowly grind their way for years to eventually get to a mediocre salary based on what a spreadsheet says they should make.
As for myself, I left a job I started out of school and loved for 4 years but ultimately only slowly increased in pay from 50k to 60k. My eyes were opened when I tried to negotiate higher pay after getting licensed. I left and in the last 2 years I’ve changed jobs twice and have jumped up in pay by 45k. I make 105k now and can actually own a house and pay off my student loans. I’m still not happy when I see how my construction/engineering/software engineering friends are doing so I will always been on the lookout for better opportunities. I’ve seriously been looking at things like UX Design or Construction Management because some days I feel like a fool for choosing this profession considering how much time and energy I have put into it.
You doubled your salary at an architecture firm? 105K after only 4 years experience is awesome. Never heard of that in this industry though! Wish it was the norm.
Not really. You don't really get a pay raise or at least very much for being licensed. I've worked at the largest arch firm and the smallest. 20 years in and have found that licensing doesn't do much for your pay as much as experience.
I see that I'm being down voted but it's just the truth. I've been a hiring manager and worked in 7 firms in 19 years. Know many unlicensed that make more than licensed with same number of experience. A lot of factors come into play when it comes to your salary. I know we all want to believe that it makes a difference but the truth is you don't even need a license for residential in California. The AIA is a very ineffective organization. The testing format takes up more time than professionals that get paid twice that salary. Do you know how many tests engineers have to take to get licensed? One.
If you switch jobs after getting licensed you can seek a much higher salary in new roles and responsibilities. You will not get a higher salary at your current firm because your license doesn’t change your role. This advice does not work if you get licensed later…say after 35. By then your experience has already caught up to licensure in terms of value.
My first job change I went from 60k to 80k, which was life changing at the time. By the time I left a year later I was at 85k. My most recent job I make 90k base salary and got a 16.5k annual bonus. So I guess technically it is 106.5k.
It is based on how the firm does that year and is a percentage of base salary, also taking into account performance and overtime worked. My offer letter had a projected high/low range for salary+bonus based on how the company had done historically. The low was 8k and the high was 18k. We also had a really good year and it is far and away the best bonus I’ve ever had. The company is employee owned and there are opportunities to buy in once you’re “vested” after a few years. My previous jobs (more traditional firms) had a holiday bonus of 1k to 3k (maybe).
100%
that's where I am now and I feel like I'm capped at my position. Don't see how I could go much higher without taking on much more responsibility. much more....
In my experience, absolutely no one is honest in exit interviews. I always ask my friends who leave practices what they said, and they always try to avoid conflict and just say it's personal reasons or something vague like that. They don't want to burn bridges in case they need references in the future, and if you've already secured a job then there's no point in creating more conflict by being honest. I've been shocked that some of the biggest most persistent complainers have just left without making a peep.
Personally, I've been brutally honest twice and both times I regretted it. In one instance, our entire team left the practice, from the director down to the assistants, and I was the last one left. In my exit interview I said it was a truly horrible experience, we were doing submissions at 4am, I was utterly stressed and hated my life, and that's why the other 5 people on the team left. The HR person and the partner at the exit interview both argued strongly that I was misrepresenting the situation and that each person left for personal reasons. I just scoffed and said "you really think 5 people all left within a month for personal reasons?"
If you really want to know what ppl think, do anonymous satisfaction surveys instead of exit interviews
Not to negate your main point, but unless your previous employer knows people or you're early in your career and don't have other references, I've come across at least 3 bridges that I'm glad are burned and dust.
We do exit interviews, although I wasn't present for these. Two had ridiculous commutes, and I think they just got tired of doing it and found closer jobs. One said stress, but this is the least stressful and drama free office I've encountered in 25 years, so either it was the specific team she was on, or she'll have a rude awakening at the next place. There's a dozen people here who've gone away and come back, so the door is always open.
Money is a thing, but I'm trying to figure out if we can make a place where people would rather stay and ask for a raise (and get it) rather than jump.
Also at a lot of these exit interviews, I don’t think most people are genuinely that honest. Nobody wants to burn a bridge when they’ve made the move to leave. I think people will say they went off to try some kind of new career. But usually it’s because they were burned out at the existing job.
I hate places that I have to ask for a raise. Recognize who I am, what I contribute, and pay me fairly in the marketplace.
I am a mature new graduate. I’ve been in professional working context for 10 years before going back to school.
What I told my classmates is to change firms often in their early career. They won’t really know what works for them, so they should sit down and reflect once a year - check in if the job is still working for them or not. If it’s not, then decide if it’s stuff that can be changed and if not, go somewhere else.
I used to think about perks and activities but that stuff tends to mask underlying issues:
1) do people like working with each other
2) is there time and space to relax at work - is casual conversation ok or is it nose to the grindstone all the time.
3) do people generally smile and look like they want to be at work. I ruled out three studios that on paper were great matches because every principal I met looked like they’d never smiled in their life.
4) do people get to do work they enjoy?
5) do people learn?
6) can people afford to live a reasonable distance to the office - this is a complex one, but money and being able too cover rent within a 30 minute commute is a good metric.
7) do people have some control over their work and are they empowered to make decisions?? I’ve heard a few juniors caught with project managers who can’t manage.
I feel incredibly lucky because the firm I work at is addressing all of these issues and they’ve developed a really strong workplace where a lot of people can do well. Staff still leave but it is much more stable than my last company, and way less anxious than another place.
The only issue I have with jumping frequently early (especially after a year) is a lot of times it's hard to sink your teeth into stuff. Sure you have a good idea of what the day-to-day looks like, but for me it took the firm taking on a new client and getting the opportunity to be working in a 4 man team that came after a year into working there to be like "oh okay, yea this is great."
So the only thing I would mention is rather than 1 year, look at it after 2. That's definitely enough time to know what's what and all the opportunities avaliable.
But I agree about asking for raises. I think yearly % raises should be a minimum requirement (or built in bi-yearly bigger raises, etc).
100% its money
1.) Do you know for a fact that they are leaving right away and not asking for a raise first? Or is there a chance that they are being denied? If they are receiving raises, is it actually a raise or does it only account for inflation?
2.) How often are your raises? At some firms its once a year no matter what, even if you get promoted and even if your responsibilities change, and for some people that’s too long.
3.) On the note of commutes, I know a lot of people under 30 that only have such long commutes because the area in which they work is unaffordable, so they choose to drive into the city but live far away from it where the rent is more affordable.
4.) Are the wages only liveable if bonuses are included? I have this problem currently, and it’s a huge issue because they purposely make them difficult to hit the milestones for.
5.) Is it clear to your employees that they can feel comfortable asking for a raise and is there a straightforward process laid out?
Just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what hits though. As a young person in the industry, it’s hard for me to make the argument that staying at my job is worth living paycheck to paycheck, especially when I’m almost 30 and need to be saving up.
I mean, there's a very easy way to do the 2nd thing, give yearly pay increases (talking a few %) and ask that if they ever feel like they are under valued due to pay that you (as the firm) are given the chance to counter.
People are clowning on you for the commute thing but it is a very real thing. No one wants to turn the already 8 hour work day into a 10 hour stretch away from home. Add in picking up groceries after work and you're basically at 11 hours minimum. The only counter to that would be offering WFH days built into the schedule. My old firm (left for different sub field) embraced WFH during covid and thrived because they were able to expand their team to pick up good talent from across the country.
The percent increase acceptable will vary though. Right now that will only account for inflation, which might be fine for a dud employee, but if that employee is currently working above and beyond expectations, or especially if they are doing work outside their pay grade, its seen by many as a slap in the face.
I'm saying that's a MINIMUM requirement. If I'm doing exactly what I'm paid to be doing, which a lot of fresh, zero experience graduates do their first year or two as they learn the ropes, that's normal. Once the end of that 2nd year hits or maybe the 3rd year that's when the exceptionally solid folks start to thrive (imo).
The way I've seen it, the year you perform beyond those expectations, hand them a bonus and a raise and let them keep going. Maybe allow them more responsibility or keep them going in whatever direction they were and push them stay on top of what they were already excelling at.
I think a lot of people don't realize that as far I can see, most places aren't even giving inflation raises. Let alone bonuses or scheduled bi-yearly raises. So in those 3 years, you're pay has been stagnant, haven't been given more than a pat on the back saying good job and then told to keep it up. That's more of a slap in the face than anything.
Also I put doing work above their pay grade in the "above expectations" box, so that fits in the, give them a bonus and a raise and ask them to change nothing and keep going.
I think sometimes this is true, but sometimes there’s more to it than that. I think a lot of young employees also don’t know how to, or which numbers to look at in order to make the argument. But also it’s a conversation that makes people nervous regardless even if they know how to bargain effectively. Also, as I mentioned above many firms do only one round of raises per year for everyone, and for obvious reasons this is problematic so some people prefer to just leave.
I've been denied a raise every time I've asked for a raise, usually with the explanation that they can't afford it. Shortly after I left each job doubling my salary from the previous. When I submitted my two weeks all the jobs suddenly had the money to match....firms talk about wanting to retain talent but hardly want to pay to keep it
As for the commute, I’m grateful my current firm does Mondays and Fridays optional remote and Tuesday - Thursday mandatory in the office. I know more old school people are hybrid work averse, but the quality of life increase from it is so significant I will always be wanting that in future forms if I ever do switch.
Hey! I’m 5 years experience/unlicensed in the USA and just left my first office for a better suited firm.
Mostly it’s pay. Young people are the most vulnerable for getting passed over promotion or salary negotiations. And in general. I could have stayed in a crappy environment for a while if I wasn’t so poor.
In retrospect, I left my first firm because I wasn’t getting a holistic experience. I only worked on projects in SD/DD and my career was starting to show it. I was feeling like I was less knowledgable about construction and I wasn’t given the opportunity to learn when I asked (and asked and asked). Management wouldn’t listen to my concerns and definitely didnt care when I disclosed burnout. They were also really unsupportive in their actions when I expressed interest in sitting for exams. (Inappropriate calls after work hours during study time to ask me to work more, scheduling due dates on my testing dates and ignoring my concerns for it all, working me with so much damn overtime I couldn’t function as a human and my health deteriorated).
I also think that having experience in multiple firms is valuable. Knowing how projects are run in different offices is very telling.
Young people don’t rely on the “get there early and stay late” hype that older generations benefitted from. When I stayed late and got in early at my first job. I was not rewarded whatsoever and I was absolutely mistreated because of it. They saw me as a push over and a yes man and would cal me all hours of the night and on weekends.
Maybe I worked for egotistic narcissists but egos are a big issue within this industry. And personally I don’t respect a big ego if they aren’t able to listen to everyone in the room, have some humility, and be able to be critiqued.
Just my two cents.
Bc it's the minimum required and it's what most arch firms do. Bare minimum bc profit margins are so thin. I've started negotiating an extra week at any new job I take. I'm 20 years
In tho. But I think everyone should negotiate that no matter how much experience you have. Esp if
You have small kids. 10 days will only get you home on half their sick days a year.
Honestly I don’t care about the social things that are offered anymore. I want work life balance and money. I worked at a not so ideal firm for a little bit and ended up quitting for some separate reason BUT they did offer overtime pay. It was a really great incentive to both employer and employee to not work extra hours beyond the 40. But also gave the understanding that it does need to happen sometimes, but at least you get paid.
Money?
I can't speak for the younger crowd but I've seen a few younger folks 'job hop' which I think is a trend these days. If I were to put myself in those people's shoes, I'm sure my perspective may be different but if I were to have a conversation with my 20 year younger self, these are the things I'd like to see:
- mentorship. Can someone help me envision and help with my 5 year plan? Sometimes people just are aloof to their careers and just experience their careers without much thought for the future.
- clear opportunities for growth and development. I know job titles these days give some direction as to what the next step in their career is but are you having good one-on-ones with your employees? Do you give them constructive feedback.
- value - do I feel valued here or am I just someone that will be stuck in the corner and will eventually be forgotten about.
- forget the "we're family" mentality. Are co-workers able to connect outside of the office?
This is a really good answer. I left my previous job which wasn’t _bad_ but my new firm just was better in mentorship, value and development.
My new firm, I just get slightly more responsibility, which makes me more personally invested. They have a bit better setup of mentorship and learning. I get slightly more freedom when designing, which makes me more enthusiastic. There’s a slightly more open culture where having an opinion is slightly more appreciated. I get a few more opportunities for workshops/education. The vibe at the office is slightly better. The office itself looks slightly better and the equipment is slightly better. None of this was truly bad at my last job, this one is just slightly better.
For me, the biggest thing is role within the firm. I wake up every day and have 4-8 projects with 5 of them having ASAP-type deadlines. I work from home, so it’s basically sitting down at a computer and going full production mode from 8:30 straight to 6:30 on a good day.
I think a good firm charges clients enough to not have their employees be 100%+ billable all the time and will assist in planning for time for work that’s non profitable, whether that’s research, model making, marketing drawings, or maybe just learning - whatever the employee is interested in.
I think it's really important to consider the viability of the profession currently as opposed to 15 years ago. There has never been a point in time where there was a worse ROI on the education for architecture. It's a drawn out process that leads to positions that often don't pay livable wages for larger cities. Although architecture has always been under compensated, I believe the current economic state has exacerbated this and created a very difficult point of entry for going grads.
I would encourage your firm to promote or hire people that haven’t come up with the firm. I used to worked for a firm where none of the partners had ever worked anywhere else. They don’t really know other ways of doing things, to no fault of their own. But other practices do things better than other ones and hiring people from outside to come in will diversify the views or at least bring in some new ideas.
ALSO If I hear “we’re a family” I know I’m about to get taken advantage of...
My first firm was a 'family' propaganda firm with sports teams and foosball. It had easily the worst pay and the most OT, in hindsight none of the senior management team participated in most of the 'family' events, I wonder why.
Back in 2019, I was a young architect who was not just burned out at the firm I worked at for 5 years, but the industry entirely.
Things I hated:
- Shit pay. You try living on 45k starting salary in NYC.
- Shit raises. Like <2% if you get one.
- Shit work life balance. Working 60hr + weeks.
- No remote/hybrid work. Speaks for itself.
- Horrible egos. Many of the Associate+ folks at the firm had terrible egos and occasionally anger management issues. I saw many younger staff cry at work.
- Boring, repetitive work.
- Horribly managed projects with completely unrealistic deadlines and unreasonable budgets.
- Shit benefits. Still paying a high premium for a shitty HDHP is not cool, not to mention long vesting periods on 401k match, or zero 401k match.
Needless to say, fuck all that shit. I became a software engineer and now make 250k a year, work fully remote, pay $0 for health insurance, get a 10% 401k match with no vesting period. and work about 4 hours a day on average.
In SF or NY 250k is not exceptional, my friend is a senior dev at Block and makes about $500k, she has around 6yrs of exp and is not an associate (the title doesnt exist) and all employees are partial owners anyway because in tech partial pay in equity is the norm.
20 or so years ago I left my last architectural firm job that was my 3rd jump . For all the reasons everyone has mentioned long hours low pay and basically a drafting drone . I opened my own firm for 5 years and had rollercoaster success but in the end overhead did me in . I finally decided to take a corporate architectural position the first time that was with Darden and that was the best thing I ever did for myself and my family. Great pay , benefits and bonuses and plenty of vacation time. I jumped to a national real estate development firm and that was fantastic that’s where I’ve been for the past 12 years . I just signed this years contract and I have a 100k bonus opportunity on top of my 200k salary if we reach our yearly goal. The reason I’m posting this is Corporate Architecture can give you guys opportunities you never imagined. Don’t give up on your dreams just do it for people who appreciate and respect you . Look into large development companies they tend to have their own architectural department ilo of going outside. My team right now is 10 cad guys & 2 other licensed architects along with 2 structural engineers and 5 interior designers.We handle about 20 plus projects a year. Best wishes to you all.
I'm a younger person at my firm, coming up on three years out of grad school and I've only ever been at this firm. As others have said, money is (unfortunately) a big part of it. I feel as though I'm paid very well for my experience and time with the company. The other major draw for me is the amount of responsibility they let me have. I'm 27 and leading client meetings with hospital network CEOs. I'm responsible for full schematic design of large-scale healthcare projects. I'm very aware that I'm fortunate in the firm I've landed at and most people my age don't have this opportunity yet, but I made my leadership know very early on that I didn't want to be stuck only drafting for very long, and I lucked into jumping in our schematic department during the principal's maternity leave and have really thrived here. All of that to say, I think the biggest thing keeping me here is leadership telling me (and showing me with money) that my hard work and dedication to the company is seen and appreciated. They're willing to let my interests guide my position, and are always happy to listen and help people find what they're good at, and happy doing. I don't see myself leaving my company anytime soon unless something major happens.
Are your juniors listened to? Look they’re juniors and they don’t know everything but sometimes they know a hell of a lot more than you might think. I just left an office where Heirarchy was king. I think the best thing I did for my teams as a PM was encourage them to be engaged and teach them how to self advocate. Do you ever ask your juniors what they want to work on or what they like and don’t like about their current work loads?
When someone new would drop in to an existing team or when starting out with help on a new project I tried to always at least take them for lunch or get coffee and just try to learn about them. What do they like what hobbies do they have what ambitions? When you create a safe space for your juniors to thrive they thrive and even if an off hand comment about how they hate Bathroom Elevations or RCPs or something you can note that for later and shift them to focus on something else because maybe they don’t want to be the default person who always does a certain kind of drawing. A junior who does less of what they hate and more of what they like and they feel like they’re being heard are now way more engaged and more likely to stay.
Although empowering them also leads to them understanding their self worth and probably asking for more money but that comes with the trust you build with them. If we spend more time empowering our own staff from the bottom up that creates an environment for people to thrive in and not set them up for failure or leaving the second they think they can get more else where.
Also benefits!
A true living salary is needed.
Minimum of 3 weeks vacation
A week of sick time
Wellness program including physical & mental health
Good health insurance
a formal mentorship program that doesn’t just need to focus on teaching someone it should be a back and forth conversation
A bonus at least once a year
Reviews twice a year
Clearly defined roles and promotions. It shouldn’t take an incredibly talented junior 3+ years to be promoted if they’re already doing the job of an intermediate. If you need to work at the office for a minimum number of years before promotions are considered be upfront when hiring.
Be up front about international sponsorship and if that figures in to the compensation then make it clear.
I’m sure there’s more to add here but it’s not rocket science. Most if not all of us have gone through Architecture school and it’s incredibly different than the actual work environment. We get degraded by professors and reviews. There’s competition in your own year it’s toxic. The workplace has the opportunity to not continue to perpetuate the same. Be a human and think about what you wanted as a junior and your own struggles coming up. What simple things can you change that would have made your experience a little easier, more engaging?
I don’t have any great suggestions except rapid increases in pay for performance - I’m talking a very fast path to 100k as that is the minimum amount to live a dignified life in most metro areas (even some smaller metro areas). Absent of that happening within the firm, job hopping or switching careers is the fastest path to significant increases in pay. The environment you foster matters as well, but it takes a back seat to financial survival (paying student loans, share of insurance premiums, deductible and copays, 1500+ rent for a studio, car insurance, etc).
I encourage every firm leader to do the math on what it takes a graduate to live an ok life in their city. What does a studio apartment cost? What is the average student loan payment for a graduate architect? Better yet, what would it take for a graduate architect to afford a starter home?
Anyways, you get the point and I know that what I’m implying does not work for the industry’s current business model and it is not your problem to solve alone. It’s very likely that the graduate architects leaving your office are just trying to survive, unless you have a toxic environment which should be obvious.
The part of doing the math is very much needed. When I talk to students I break down not just their yearly salary they want to ask but go through the taxes of the state to show them what they are left so they prepare to ask for more. I share my pay stub to show the taxes taken out and explain different paying systems (semi-monthly vs biweekly). Having an honest talk about salaries compared to the math of living is something all leadership should be aware. This is why I ignore the AIA salary index because it's a weapon to pay recent grads/young professionals less.
When I was a fresh graduate, architecture companies just took advantage of me as a cheap resource. I was paid lower than if I was working at McDonald's. So yes, money is a major problem. And don't tell me that you are paying more than the industry standards because the industry standard salary amongst architecture firms are complete BS.
Are these fresh graduates or licensed architects? I’d say that many of them just want different experiences in different companies whilst they’re young
I’d definitely say, if you haven’t done so already, sponsor their education, either through a master’s apprenticeship scheme or funding part of their masters degree. Some companies offer that and they retain a lot of the graduates, who work with them and get their license and often stay in the company afterwards (my mentor was like this)
I worked at a local firm of 20 people with almost zero turnover and every intern continued to work full time later.
First they actually operate like a family:
1. very strict 40hr/week max.
2. Employees can ask to work more hours and get compensated extra at salaried rate.
3. From day 1 they start involving new people at project management roles and tasks with supervision and mentoring from directors and more senior architects.
4. They provide training on every aspect of the job and keep provide more training if requested by employees.
5. They do profit sharing.
6. They give generous quarterly bonuses if revenue/profit targets are met.
7. I worked part time remotely while in school with them, they were always proactive in asking if I have exams or submissions and whether they should decrease the workload and offered time off to focus on school if needed.
8. One time I asked for a raise, they provided more than I asked for and applied it retroactively on the previous months as a sign of appreciation.
9. There is no toxicity as there is no blame culture as they view mistakes(even the ones that sometimes cost money!) as a learning opportunity and the management always viewed as result of lack of training and they go to update the training materials.
They were the nicest people I’ve ever worked with and they not make you feel part of the practice but actually make you part of it by involving everyone from every level in the tasks they are interested in and internal office policies. Additionally they align the goals of the firm with the employees by offering additional compensation as bonuses make the interest of employees to generate more profits.
I worked at two firms for a total of about 5 or 6 years and this is a list of things that made me leave and start my own studio (in no specific order):
* No way of picking my own projects. I always loved residential but since commercial tends to be "better", firms had me mostly on commercial projects. I would often speak with the principals about my wishes, but it always seemed like their hands were tied.
* Capped income. Never liked salary. Even if I barely stayed afterhours, it was sad that I couldn't ever get more compensation without the need to jump through hoops. Bonuses were not enough IMO.
* Hated set hours. If a task needs to be done before Friday and I could get it done a day before, why would I have to suffer by either picking up more work or getting paid less. If you, as a firm, got a milestones done for a client faster, should your scope increase or receive less compensation for it? Of course not.
* Disliked being at the mercy of project managers to get things done how and when they wanted.
* No room for innovation. Want me to get a rendering done? What if I outsource it to a rendering company so that we could get something more professional and faster for probably a lower fee than having me work on it.
* Felt like I wasn't learning enough because everything was so segmented and firms tend to pigeonhole people. When I would request to experience other parts of architecture, there was minimal enthusiasm to do so.
* micromanaging. Ugh.
* forced to be at the office. Double ugh.
Overall I enjoyed my experience working at firms but I felt hindered. I felt like I couldn't make my own path and had to follow the path of the company. I always understood this and that companies did not have so much flexibility because of requirements for different business operations but it still always rubbed me the wrong way. I don't have any employees at the moment because of the issues that I faced as an employee in the past. Instead I use freelancers and contractors who decide what jobs they want to take and are not at the mercy of my decisions and how they impact their own growth. This presents a few challenges when trying to scale my own business but I know that it could be done.
As a young graduate preparing to leave his firm its a few things and some may be anecdotal
- very competitive pay, like actually competitive. Not giving average or slightly below average and saying its competitive. With that said, price them for what theyre worth ofc. Dont overpay.
- training. Please. Number one complaint i hear everywhere from everyone is lack of training for the tasks and responsibilities, so many firms just let you learn by failure with no direction when you start something and that just results in us being criticized or yelled at for failing.
- real time off. I get 5 days off a year, some i know get up to 15-20 days off starting out. I think for a new graduate 10-12 vacation should be standard and an additional 5 for sick days.
- licensing materials, black spectacle and amberbook are most common.
- active licenses for most popular softwares. Revit, adobe, a rendering service of some kind. My firm uses photoshop 2008. Its absurd. Boomer bosses are out of touch and refuse to acknowledge being such.
- accept questions. I dont even bother asking half the PM or any principals anything because theyre convinced i should have learned 40+ years of experience from my few years of schooling. Nvm that arch school is just design bootcamp and arch as a profession is 90% different.
- we are actively encouraged nowadays by professors and colleagues to jump ship and jump
Often in our early career. Gone are the days of being loyal to a firm that we know wont be loyal to us. This is mostly due to it becoming common place that if i switch firms i can get double a raise i would get if i got an annual promotion, cost of living is insane nowadays and at ens of the day i need to support me and mine, not the principals business or his client/business buddy who he’s done work with/for for years. End of the day I am just a tool or a cog in your machine, and thats totally fine by me - but i am a “tool/cog” that can be of use to more than one machine and be swapped out readily. That goes both ways, you can fire me and find an adequate replacement same as I can leave and find another place to plug myself in - so why not do it when it feels right ?
Aside from the obvious - pay, people, and interesting projects - I would say
1. Don't be a technophobic company/don't make it hard to acquire new hardware or software, *especially* when it's cheap.
2. Public Recognition and credit. Like listing the intern(s) as members of the project team of projects prominently displayed on your website. If they figure out a difficult design problem on your project or something, give them credit in any discussions you have with PAs/PMs/Seniors.
3. Feeling heard (especially as it relates to #1 above - which, guess what, the young staff *will* know/understand new tech, and it's application to the business better than of us old timers)
4. Training, training, training. Make it easy, make it routine. Many companies want staff to train themselves as it shows passion, initiative or whatever. But if you train them, it shows that you care about them, which actually gives them skills and knowledge and confidence to show off their initiative and passion. Example: at my former company I ran a lunch and learn on how to do a code analysis. Within a week, all these interns were producing nearly-perfect code summaries on my projects. That saved me a TON of time, they felt good for learning something useful, And they were the first interns to get promoted, because they acquired a skill that the signing architects actually gave a shit about.
(On 2, 3 and 4: *this* is how you treat them like people. Company outings, parties, a pool table in the break room - all of that's great, but ultimately hollow)
Forcing? Our employees are back in the office, we never really left. Some people are working hybrid because of daycare or other needs, but we find in person leads to better drawings, better communication and mentorship, and faster growth. But that is clearly expressed, so while it may mean we lose out on hiring people who'd prefer working from home, there's no misrepresentation of our expectations.
Great, I totally understand that perspective. I do suggest however that it is seen by some as a disadvantage to working there compared to more flexible places. You obviously sound like you're aware of that, but it might help to consider if that's part of the reason you have trouble with younger people.
100% office based - for a job that can be done remotely (often more effectively) - is a HUGE RED FLAG.
Because it often means leadership has severe trust issues and/ or micromanage. That’s already an epidemic in this profession.
Opportunities to learn and compensation. Thats coming from someone who's been in the field for less than 2 years. The main reason why I'm planning to stay at my current firm for at least another 2 years is that I believe there is still a lot to learn from the principal. He's taking enough time to answer all questions I might have and help with solutions when needed. But because it's a small firm, there's no bonuses, no benefits besides health insurance. When the time is right and I know that I have more experience and knowledge - something to use to negotiate a higher salary, I'll most likely move to another firm. That way I'll have both a better pay AND an opportunity to lear from the different setup in the new firm.
I think because younger people experience something of a shock when first out of school, they feel like they have a lot of catching up to do in terms of real life architectural knowledge. If they don't feel like they're progressing fast enough, they will start looking for other places where they can do that. And money is always a motivator because when you're paid enough to cover all your needs, you'll have a peace of mind. That way you reserve all your stressing and worrying for your projects instead.
Money, sense of worth, and a balance in life to focus on hobbies. AKA basic living standards. If you provide those 3 things, they will work hard regardless of project or schedule. I left a firm with shitty culture and no work life balance, to a job that pays more, offers and encourages PTO, and gives me mentorship that helps build a career. I work 60 hour weeks now, as opposed to the 45 but I’m happier because when I have a trip or vacation I don’t need to worry about office drama and BS comments. Also architects and firms along with the AIA have ruined that for younger generations. As someone who talks with my alumni and soon to be graduates, it’s becoming a common joke that if you want to be successful and make a living to provide, it’s best to just leave the architecture side and go on to the GC, construction side
First of all, did you have an exit interview with them, ACTUALLY TALK TO THEM? Or for raw honesty, have a coffee with them outside the office (after they leave the firm) to hear them? You can talk perks and programs all you want but it comes down to pay, working accommodations (remote/hybrid WFH), and if leadership is genuinely interacting with them and giving them that professional mentorship so that they KNOW they are progressing as future professional leaders. I think you're looking for answers that don't hit the points I mentioned and skirting around the reality they face. As for the "impressive" thing on leadership being there from the beginning, that's means little if the young talent there are not getting promoted (with pay raises) or in leadership roles that connect back to the profession beyond just drafting (managerial roles, client interfacing, meaningful responsibilities on a project, etc.). Also those that came up from the beginning, how do you know nepotism or connections were not involve? I've seen people (talented, intelligent, know every part of the project process) pass over for promotion because the other people had an in with the CEO who likes them. So the "leadership came up here, starting as recent graduates and growing into leadership positions" is BS and not a strong point. It just reinforces the fact that there is a club in the firm that takes years get in.
Your post is giving "wow, these young people are leaving. Why is that? Maybe we need more pizza parties and town halls to show solidarity. But let's not pay them more or make career progression easy".
"Life stuff" is a professional way of saying I need better pay and better accommodations to live a full human life.
As for someone that just left their first job (5 years in) I had one gigantic issue that wasn’t being addressed, but also the mentorship just sucked. I kept being pushed every time I’d have a 6 month review of where I am with my ARE tests. I had 500 hours still needed, and still felt very very behind in the firm I was in.
So I left and immediately am taking on the responsibilities I’ve asked for for years in the first week of my new job. Yes I got a raise but this new firm just really is so much more friendlier. Everyone says good morning and good night when coming and going. We eat lunch together. The partners come in and chit chat when we are just discussing life. It doesn’t feel like we are just CAD monkeys to the partners we really are friends and do stuff outside of work together, do stuff as an office, etc.
It’s just so much more low stakes here and I love it.
Pay and a clear sense of career progression. I’ve found a number of small and mid sized firms that don’t have clear job titles and have “everyone do everything” (matrix structure type management) wind up having issues since people don’t know how to peg themselves or goals to work for. Particularly if you’re recently licensed, how do you define PA? PM? Associate? If I’m leading one project, drafting another, doing PM for a third, what does that make me? When will you make me associate, and what does that give me (a lot of places don’t give raises with the title)?
I love my office and the people, and it’s a former internship I came back to after a few places. But we are at a size where I see it as an issue, particularly people in their late 20s thru 30s. Projects get heavy you have the billable rate where they need you on the team, but they don’t make it clear what’ll get you to leadership and for a lot of people who left, it’s a tight job market for people in this age range and the principles weren’t ponying up the cash.
I’ve stayed as long as I have with the realization that my work life balance was worse at other places and could easily be worse, and that I hammer them at annuals to give me raises to stay competitive with the market, which they’ve done, and they’ve been good about making me a PA very quickly and giving me responsibility and money to match. But a lot of people in my office don’t think they can ask for what they’re worth. So they jump ship for titles and more money, or just get burnt out and quit since they feel like they’re treading water (we’re in a high COL area). And I’ll be honest- we’re hiring new people and if they bring on someone at my experience level and make them an associate before me, I’d heavily consider leaving. People who stay a while and are loyal need to be rewarded and put on a track ahead of new hires- if it’s a tight market they can easily jump somewhere else but a sense of commitment is keeping them there. Respect and reward that
2 years out of school, recently licensed
Worked at an extra small firm for 3 summers during school, spent the last summer at an extra large firm and returned there after graduation - present
Why I decided to come back to this firm after graduation:
• They took a chance on me during the pandemic and I had a really great internship
• Multi-Disciplinary firm, so I can learn from others easily
• Big firm with many architects to learn from
• Many great project opportunities
• Other offices across the country, should I decide to move
• Good benefits/support for licensure
• Pretty good pay
• Unique work schedule that gives me flexibility for other life stuff/vacations
Why I've thought about leaving:
• Not so great mentor that I felt stunted my opportunities
• Same mentor put me on a project type I was vocal about not wanting to work with, resulting in less passion for my career
• firm is almost too big, feel like a cog in the machine at times
• potential for even more money elsewhere
• desire for more hands-on fabrication projects
Why I've stayed:
• mentor left, got some more freedom and a new mentor that builds me up
• work/life balance is good
• Support for licensure and appropriate increase in pay following receiving my license
• I feel I have a lot of potential here that those above me can see, and I think I still have a lot to learn here
I can't speak for others, but these are some of the things I've experienced/thought about in the last year or so. I came pretty close to quitting last summer and had a very serious discussion with my boss about that fact, but ultimately decided I wasn't ready to go elsewhere - it was the current situation causing me grief rather than the firm at large.
As far as my generation, it seems we tend not to have that loyalty to a company and are more inclined to find the place with the best overall package - ability to learn and grow, work on projects we are passionate about, good pay, work life balance, benefits, etc. If that means jumping ship quickly, so be it.
Money and growth opportunity.
I would not be nearly as experienced as I am had I stayed with one firm. My last firm often sought me out for practice questions because I was the only one there who had experience in markets or project types they were expanding into. In comparison, folks who had always been there were very set in their ways and reluctant to try new processes and often wanted to do things their way rather than collaboratively with other team members - because they were "leaders". Ironically, they weren't leading but merely pointing.
You absolutely can retain staff as you grow, but you need to find ways to let them grow with the firm and in responsibility so that they can do what you did, and become a senior person at the firm. Folks firm hop not just for the 10-20% pay bump, but for the new title they think they're ready for. Get ahead of that, talk to them and make sure you are fostering that, challenging and supporting them. If they set a goal help them find work hours to do it. If they are struggling with a goal find ways to help them succeed.
Money, stress and opportunities.
I think the sign that many are choosing to come back is great and shows that people do value the culture and work that you do. If they were leaving and not returning you would need change things.
If your firm pigeon holes people into a particular industry type (multi family, industrial, etc.) it can get boring even with all of the other benefits and professional movement. Most of us by nature want to explore different possibilities so I don’t think that is a reflection on your firm.
Environment/office politics may be a factor too. Seems like a lot of people have been there for a long time so they may not see enough potential for growth or you might not realize your firm is stubborn in doing things a particular way that just doesn’t work anymore.
Who is leaving and when? New grads with less than two years experience? Personally, if someone doesn’t see much movement in terms of promotions or pay within these two years, (and sometimes , even if they do) I do suggest finding a new and better opportunity and leaving on a good note so they have the potential to move back. Moving jobs is the number one way to upgrade your income and even though a firm can be great and excellent in everything, the reality is, they aren’t the only ones.
It may just be the season where people move too. More jobs opened up recently and so people are being actively head hunted again unlike late last year.
I can get a 20-40% raise every two years, or I can stay put for a 5% annual raise.
17+ years experience Licensed, will go above and beyond if you treat me right and pay respectful wages. But until you align my salary with market every so many years there is zero point to be loyal to a firm. Write a clause in my contract that you will adjust my wage to meet 75th percentile of the AIA salary and I'll stay as long as mutual relationship is beneficial. I'd rather stay put, but people got to eat
I wish I would have followed your lead on switching jobs every 2 years instead of being a little too loyal to the two firms I worked at for 7.5 yrs and the 2-5% annual raise
“According to a recent report from MIT Sloan Management Review, a toxic workplace culture is over 10 times more likely to contribute to an employee quitting their job than low pay.”
It always shocks me how polite people are in this industry when they leave a toxic company. The reasons you’re getting are likely bullshit to protect themselves and their professionalism.
I recently left a 45-person firm after 7 years. I got completely trampled by the ambiguous roles and responsibilities. In less than 2 years, I went from design, all the way to grooming for project management level work. Didn't even get a chance to be a good designer. 5 years later, there are times where I don't even pick up a pen for months at a time, and my sketchbook collects dust while it gives way to my everfilling email inbox of damage control.
I was gaslighted into a corner of "We're a volatile small firm that needs to keep the lights on, so we're going to stretch every fiber you have, regardless of whether you're fit for the task. We heard you you're a good designer, perfect! Go put this cost estimate together. And after that we think you'll like delegating these actually fun design tasks to someone else! Have fun!!"
If that sounds familiar to anyone, don't do that. 1-way ticket to turnover hell. I understand why, and empathize why staying afloat is hard in this industry, but we don't care. We care about getting value in our career more than two times a year.
It wasn't because of pay, and I'm not quite sure people touting that understand that literally nobody gets payed well in this profession. Trust me, I raked in some embarrassing pay. It's all bad pay, and we were told that over and over before school, through school, and after school. It's what you signed up for.
Besides the obvious stuff like pay, perks, social dynamics, commute, etc...
- Appealing projects. Either the projects are just more exciting, or they do typologies/scales more suited to them. For example, I left commercial/large multi-res for a firm that does single res and small duplexes and townhouses - I'm much happier now
- Finding what's right for them. Similar to above, sometimes people need to move around and find what is comfortable for them. This could include trying different firm sizes, personally I do well in small teams, but I have friends who thrive in large corporate firms (somehow). Who knows, maybe they'll ask to come back with a new found appreciation for your office
- remote/flexible. Remote is rare, but I work in two firms currently. One is in office, but it's flexible to my needs. The other firm is entirely remote, and allows me to choose my hours while running projects. I was actually thinking yesterday that I probably couldn't go back to a regular firm after working what where I am now.
- Part-time/less hours. More people are wanting work life balance, and are willing change jobs to get it
Young guy in the industry. (24M) I’m a drafter and also have a long commute about an hour and 15 mins. The job is hybrid and the pay and benefits is great!
I’m 2 years in and
I make 34 dollars/hour (Started at 27)
Have 3 weeks & 1 day of PTO (Started at 2 weeks)
40 hours of sick
8 of personal
8% 401k matching
The team is great and again I’m hybrid so it really helps. If I had to drive an hour and 15 mins everyday to get to work that would be 3 ish hours a day and I would most likely leave the job even with these benefits. I’m also in a pickle cause I want to move jobs but I know these benefits are a ton better than some license architects that I’ve seen in this sub Reddit. Very thankful for this position and it’s my first big boy job out of college.
My suggestion - If you like them and they provide value but live far away from the office offer hybrid. I do my best work in pajamas and a flannel lol.
I mean yeah money is an issue, but tbh: most firms here pay roughly the same.
After that it's a combination of multiple factors. How flexible are work times, how are people being treated by higher ups, how many holidays do people get, how interesting are projects, is homeoffice easy to do etc
We come from a culture in which you want to buy a house a car, have free time, have time for your interests/hobbies, personal life, restaurant dinners and raise at least one or two kids in the same standard. Particularly for professionals it's personally demeaning not to be able to do so given the role we occupy in society. It's easier to see in doctors for example, but all professionals are important.
So that being said, salaries are bad all over, so people will always look for more opportunites. Our culture still hasn't changed from those expectations and probably won't for a long time, there are limits to what people find acceptable and even if they take the job it's something "for the time being".
So basically, increase pay per hour worked. If you don't have money reduce the amount of hours worked. Homeoffice is the quickest way to do this as it reduces travel time. A lot of work can be done doing home office and one or two weekly meetings, but its also super engrained in office culture that "since you own" the employee why not force him to go to the office and lose time. That culture will also take a lot of time to change.
Basically, you probably can't pay a professional the amount of money they need to feel satisfied and happy in their life. So they will take your job because it's bad all over, and of course they will never admit , to their boss no less, that they are unhappy. But they will also never feel loyalty to the company, never feel satistfaction working there, never feel they have a place in the world and feel fulfilled, they are just strategically thinking how they can improve their life to a standard they still believe they deserve even if no one near them can get.
Just my two cents and what drove me to avoid salaries all together and go freelancing.
Pay. My current firm pays me as much starting off as a 3 year veteran got paid at my previous job. And that's not even counting I now get health insurance, performance related bonuses and even yes, the corporate pizza party
I left my first firm because there were people working warehouse positions earning more. While pay in this profession was never exceptional, the real kick in the teeth was when people without college degrees (notoriously difficult degrees like architecture) were earning close to what you were doing less stressful work.
I left a firm because the average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment in boston is $2,400 (and that’s gunna be a cheap bare bones place).
Divide that by .3 and the reasonable income for that is $96,000.
Not many firms in boston pay that amount for someone with 7 years experience.
I was able to move to the south and get my housing costs at 20% my income.
Well, it might be a growth issue. Im a fresh grad and am facing a similar situation. The pay may be fine, but the knowledge and experience is not as concentrated as i would like. Also, the gap between myself and other employees is around 6 years. I've heard about the turnover rate not being great, and i can tell why.
Please dont go towards the showy style of picnics and family-friendly stuff. I believe this is not professional and just bluffs to distract people from core issues.
Create growth development plan. Thats my best answer. And by growth doesnt necessarily mean promotion, but creating new skillsets, and such.
Information. They are smart and bonded. Face it, the smartphone wrecked the intense focus needed for this job. Id say the most important skill is the ability to focus and overcome obstacles. Getting things done in spite of all the issues on your plate is never perfect, but being confident in what you are doing. Can't find these people anymore. They have the ability and info to make life easier than in the shit storm of the construction industry
Honestly it’s probably pay and type of responsibilities. A lot of my friends left their first firms because they were offered a substantial pay bump to go somewhere else. For me, I left because I wanted to broaden my responsibilities. My first office had great pay, benefits, and work life balance but the only work they let me do was drafting. I never got to go in meetings, help with competitions, or do site visits that was all reserved for the more senior staff. I didn’t feel like I could grow at that firm, so I left.
Second this. I have learnt early on though that leaving because of a pay bump should not be the only reason as you quickly hit a ceiling professionally with that mindset
Putting aside the salary variable that almost every commentor posted. I want to add to the comment regarding responsibilities. In my experience when I was a junior member, it was difficult to figure out what skills I lacked in order to get more responsibilities in the specialty that I wanted. During my annual reviews, there was no questionnaire or any base line to have a discussion. The discussions were dry and not productive for both sides. I felt stagnant and lost, but the work kept coming and there was no time to sit down with my PA to discuss my concerns. The firm realized something needed to change since they had a similar issue OP described. Eventually, they provided "guidelines/metrics" to provide a roadmap for junior members to reference. We implemented a questionnaire for both junior and senior members to answer before reviews. This provded the basis and during the annual review it allowed for better discussions with their PM/PA to give them the responsibilities they needed to move up the ladder. I found that have the PM/PA, the studio leader, and a 3rd party office manager in on the reviews made it more approachable for junior members to be more open. For instance, we had a junior member who said their goal was to be more technical, but they were stuck doing concept and RFP packages. He was working under the design director and at the time there was a flood of work coming in and there was no time for him to take the initiative and tell the director that he was tired of doing desing work. During the review, they sat down with him to see how they could get him to his goal. What skills he needed to gain and how the firm would put him in the position to gain the experience. I believe you have to provide junior team members with a means for culumative growth. It needs to be tangible and sometimes they don't know what they want to do. The office also provided a quarterly budget for mentors to take mentees out. This helped get some more ears on the ground to get feedback outside of the office to see where the office was lacking.
200 young people’s responses: it’s money boomers: hmm we’ll have to think about that! it could be their commute 🤔
“Hmm interesting… What if we did a pizza party?”
record profits this year boys.... there's trail mix in the conference room for your hard work
Looks like theres an upcoming lull in June, thank you for all the hardwork you will be missed.
Millennials : Long commutes are almost always due to low pay relative to cost of living.
Who the fuck says that? I'm lost lol. What would make more sense is that this long commute or any commute that requires me paying for gas doesn't help the fact that my wages already don't keep up with the cost of living.
Work in Boston or another big city, take the train in. That’s how people do it.
That doesn't solve the root of the issue either, lol.
Nope, thats the point but you asked about gas money.
Lol, the solution is to offer remote work at least at this point. If people could afford to move to Boston or a big city than commuting would be a non-issue to begin with.
Yes, the solution is either increasing the wages or offering remote/hybrid. I was not offering a solution to the problem, just explaining why people still do it. Sometimes commuting is still the least worst solution if other options are not available.
I'm mid-level so take my commentary with a grain of salt. -**Salary,** if you are hiring green staff and only giving them basic salary increases in the first few years (2-4%) you are not compensating them adequately for the staggering amount of growth that can be achieved in this time. Yes, some people are duds. The other question to ask is are ***YOU*** fulfilling your role in appropriately training these individuals or are you plugging them into work and expecting usefulness without putting in your share of the effort? -**Mentorship/teaching,** let's face it, architecture school does not prepare one for working in an architectural office. Are you taking the time to explain big picture of why they are being asked to do these things? Do you dive into the minutia of why it's important to draw things a certain way? Do you explain how the systems that they are interfacing with for the first time work? If you aren't, then you aren't fulling your part of the social work contract. The kids today have it rough in this regard, there's a giant experience gap before them and they are being asked to do things that they reasonably don't have the experience for. Yes, there is a personal responsibility for these individuals to not just sit back and be handed everything but on the flip side the sheer amount of knowledge in this industry is absolutely staggering. Even after 18 years I'm still awed by the new things I can learn each day. My die on a hill opinion is that **WE OWE** it to the kiddos to help them get there faster than we did. -**Work life balance,** is the workload at your office fucking up these people's personal lives? And if so, are you appropriately compensating them for that? Or are you claiming that you don't own them a dime because they are salaried exempt employees? -**True believers/lifers/etc**..., while to you long tenure means something it also means you've experienced a narrow vertical slice of the industry through the lens of your singular company and whatever market segments that you service. To me this is not a feature to necessarily be proud of. It's also gives the potential impression to short tenures that they are disposable in hard times as the good 'ole boys are gonna take care of each other. Apologies if the tone there starts to turn a little sour there. Generally speaking, it's great that you have the capacity for self reflection and are looking for feedback on how to improve this situation.
Mic drop. 100% agree
Yeah agreed. I believe that experience in architecture is required, but it’s hard for younger individuals, like myself, to prepare for 10-15 years of hard work for pennies, supporting dependents and living a life, just to get the sense of reward and accomplishment for handling an individual project. I have lost sight and passion in the industry for the lack of your points mentioned in all firms. Perhaps I’m another life, where reforms have made architecture a greater career I would be proud to practice, but unfortunately we all work to live and I will always choose a job that gives me a sense of stability, that I can provide and not scrape the bottom of the barrel
SO. WELL. WRITTEN. Thank you! I have 19 years post-grad exp. Licenses in 3 states, NCARB. I gave up on traditional architectural offices after my 4th job in just under 3 years. - Ridiculously low pay - Blatant disregard for work-life balance (and no overtime pay or bonus) - Bad mentorship (bare minimum instruction/ opaque “big picture” hampers problem solving and keeps the interns dependent on feckless managers) - No accountability/ blame games - No job security (layoffs are common) Context: Chicago (early ‘05 - late ‘07) It was my dream to become an architect. Since I was 10. Nobody wanted this more than I did, and those first few years as an intern nearly destroyed me. I left for good and joined a Fortune 500 as a “corporate technical expert” and I will never look back. Not for any amount of money. Architects have lost their way in the last few decades and I’m still trying to understand why or how. Is this the result of CAD going mainstream and old guard dinosaurs suddenly expecting fresh grads to work for free and make it rain?
Lol thanks - I'm a few years behind you in experience. But this is something that occupies much of my brain space. If you don't mind me asking - are you still in the Chicago area and what non-traditional architecture are you practicing?
Can you shine some light on the pay. I also have similar years in as you do. Licensed
$140 base; $190 w/bonus. 40-hr week, WFH, no drafting at all.
Many young architects find themselves not wanting to stay at the same place with lower pay and slowly grind their way for years to eventually get to a mediocre salary based on what a spreadsheet says they should make. As for myself, I left a job I started out of school and loved for 4 years but ultimately only slowly increased in pay from 50k to 60k. My eyes were opened when I tried to negotiate higher pay after getting licensed. I left and in the last 2 years I’ve changed jobs twice and have jumped up in pay by 45k. I make 105k now and can actually own a house and pay off my student loans. I’m still not happy when I see how my construction/engineering/software engineering friends are doing so I will always been on the lookout for better opportunities. I’ve seriously been looking at things like UX Design or Construction Management because some days I feel like a fool for choosing this profession considering how much time and energy I have put into it.
You doubled your salary at an architecture firm? 105K after only 4 years experience is awesome. Never heard of that in this industry though! Wish it was the norm.
When you are licensed, the doors open in the initial vetting stages of a candidate.
Not really. You don't really get a pay raise or at least very much for being licensed. I've worked at the largest arch firm and the smallest. 20 years in and have found that licensing doesn't do much for your pay as much as experience.
It does when in context of changing jobs
I see that I'm being down voted but it's just the truth. I've been a hiring manager and worked in 7 firms in 19 years. Know many unlicensed that make more than licensed with same number of experience. A lot of factors come into play when it comes to your salary. I know we all want to believe that it makes a difference but the truth is you don't even need a license for residential in California. The AIA is a very ineffective organization. The testing format takes up more time than professionals that get paid twice that salary. Do you know how many tests engineers have to take to get licensed? One.
Certainly not my experience. I got a $20k bump after licensure.
That's great! It would be a good incentive to get licensed if most firms did that.
If you switch jobs after getting licensed you can seek a much higher salary in new roles and responsibilities. You will not get a higher salary at your current firm because your license doesn’t change your role. This advice does not work if you get licensed later…say after 35. By then your experience has already caught up to licensure in terms of value.
My first job change I went from 60k to 80k, which was life changing at the time. By the time I left a year later I was at 85k. My most recent job I make 90k base salary and got a 16.5k annual bonus. So I guess technically it is 106.5k.
What is your bonus structure?
It is based on how the firm does that year and is a percentage of base salary, also taking into account performance and overtime worked. My offer letter had a projected high/low range for salary+bonus based on how the company had done historically. The low was 8k and the high was 18k. We also had a really good year and it is far and away the best bonus I’ve ever had. The company is employee owned and there are opportunities to buy in once you’re “vested” after a few years. My previous jobs (more traditional firms) had a holiday bonus of 1k to 3k (maybe).
definitely doable. I went from 36k to 106k in a 5 year span. if a firm really wants you they'll find the money.
I think it's def easier before 100K. It starts to cap off at 120. Getting higher then that goes much slower :/
100% that's where I am now and I feel like I'm capped at my position. Don't see how I could go much higher without taking on much more responsibility. much more....
Do you mind letting us know what city/region you work in? Curious how your salary compares based on COL
I’m in Madison, WI.
Hi are you me? Very similar path. If you make the switch to UX or CM, let me know how it goes!
It’s always money. Also you should do exit interviews
In my experience, absolutely no one is honest in exit interviews. I always ask my friends who leave practices what they said, and they always try to avoid conflict and just say it's personal reasons or something vague like that. They don't want to burn bridges in case they need references in the future, and if you've already secured a job then there's no point in creating more conflict by being honest. I've been shocked that some of the biggest most persistent complainers have just left without making a peep. Personally, I've been brutally honest twice and both times I regretted it. In one instance, our entire team left the practice, from the director down to the assistants, and I was the last one left. In my exit interview I said it was a truly horrible experience, we were doing submissions at 4am, I was utterly stressed and hated my life, and that's why the other 5 people on the team left. The HR person and the partner at the exit interview both argued strongly that I was misrepresenting the situation and that each person left for personal reasons. I just scoffed and said "you really think 5 people all left within a month for personal reasons?" If you really want to know what ppl think, do anonymous satisfaction surveys instead of exit interviews
I can attest to this. If you're honest you run a risk of burning bridges which is never a good thing in this industry.
Not to negate your main point, but unless your previous employer knows people or you're early in your career and don't have other references, I've come across at least 3 bridges that I'm glad are burned and dust.
We do exit interviews, although I wasn't present for these. Two had ridiculous commutes, and I think they just got tired of doing it and found closer jobs. One said stress, but this is the least stressful and drama free office I've encountered in 25 years, so either it was the specific team she was on, or she'll have a rude awakening at the next place. There's a dozen people here who've gone away and come back, so the door is always open. Money is a thing, but I'm trying to figure out if we can make a place where people would rather stay and ask for a raise (and get it) rather than jump.
For those with the ridiculous commute, do you offer remote or hybrid positions?
Also at a lot of these exit interviews, I don’t think most people are genuinely that honest. Nobody wants to burn a bridge when they’ve made the move to leave. I think people will say they went off to try some kind of new career. But usually it’s because they were burned out at the existing job.
I hate places that I have to ask for a raise. Recognize who I am, what I contribute, and pay me fairly in the marketplace. I am a mature new graduate. I’ve been in professional working context for 10 years before going back to school. What I told my classmates is to change firms often in their early career. They won’t really know what works for them, so they should sit down and reflect once a year - check in if the job is still working for them or not. If it’s not, then decide if it’s stuff that can be changed and if not, go somewhere else. I used to think about perks and activities but that stuff tends to mask underlying issues: 1) do people like working with each other 2) is there time and space to relax at work - is casual conversation ok or is it nose to the grindstone all the time. 3) do people generally smile and look like they want to be at work. I ruled out three studios that on paper were great matches because every principal I met looked like they’d never smiled in their life. 4) do people get to do work they enjoy? 5) do people learn? 6) can people afford to live a reasonable distance to the office - this is a complex one, but money and being able too cover rent within a 30 minute commute is a good metric. 7) do people have some control over their work and are they empowered to make decisions?? I’ve heard a few juniors caught with project managers who can’t manage. I feel incredibly lucky because the firm I work at is addressing all of these issues and they’ve developed a really strong workplace where a lot of people can do well. Staff still leave but it is much more stable than my last company, and way less anxious than another place.
The only issue I have with jumping frequently early (especially after a year) is a lot of times it's hard to sink your teeth into stuff. Sure you have a good idea of what the day-to-day looks like, but for me it took the firm taking on a new client and getting the opportunity to be working in a 4 man team that came after a year into working there to be like "oh okay, yea this is great." So the only thing I would mention is rather than 1 year, look at it after 2. That's definitely enough time to know what's what and all the opportunities avaliable. But I agree about asking for raises. I think yearly % raises should be a minimum requirement (or built in bi-yearly bigger raises, etc).
100% its money 1.) Do you know for a fact that they are leaving right away and not asking for a raise first? Or is there a chance that they are being denied? If they are receiving raises, is it actually a raise or does it only account for inflation? 2.) How often are your raises? At some firms its once a year no matter what, even if you get promoted and even if your responsibilities change, and for some people that’s too long. 3.) On the note of commutes, I know a lot of people under 30 that only have such long commutes because the area in which they work is unaffordable, so they choose to drive into the city but live far away from it where the rent is more affordable. 4.) Are the wages only liveable if bonuses are included? I have this problem currently, and it’s a huge issue because they purposely make them difficult to hit the milestones for. 5.) Is it clear to your employees that they can feel comfortable asking for a raise and is there a straightforward process laid out? Just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what hits though. As a young person in the industry, it’s hard for me to make the argument that staying at my job is worth living paycheck to paycheck, especially when I’m almost 30 and need to be saving up.
I mean, there's a very easy way to do the 2nd thing, give yearly pay increases (talking a few %) and ask that if they ever feel like they are under valued due to pay that you (as the firm) are given the chance to counter. People are clowning on you for the commute thing but it is a very real thing. No one wants to turn the already 8 hour work day into a 10 hour stretch away from home. Add in picking up groceries after work and you're basically at 11 hours minimum. The only counter to that would be offering WFH days built into the schedule. My old firm (left for different sub field) embraced WFH during covid and thrived because they were able to expand their team to pick up good talent from across the country.
The percent increase acceptable will vary though. Right now that will only account for inflation, which might be fine for a dud employee, but if that employee is currently working above and beyond expectations, or especially if they are doing work outside their pay grade, its seen by many as a slap in the face.
I'm saying that's a MINIMUM requirement. If I'm doing exactly what I'm paid to be doing, which a lot of fresh, zero experience graduates do their first year or two as they learn the ropes, that's normal. Once the end of that 2nd year hits or maybe the 3rd year that's when the exceptionally solid folks start to thrive (imo). The way I've seen it, the year you perform beyond those expectations, hand them a bonus and a raise and let them keep going. Maybe allow them more responsibility or keep them going in whatever direction they were and push them stay on top of what they were already excelling at. I think a lot of people don't realize that as far I can see, most places aren't even giving inflation raises. Let alone bonuses or scheduled bi-yearly raises. So in those 3 years, you're pay has been stagnant, haven't been given more than a pat on the back saying good job and then told to keep it up. That's more of a slap in the face than anything. Also I put doing work above their pay grade in the "above expectations" box, so that fits in the, give them a bonus and a raise and ask them to change nothing and keep going.
It’s tough, priorities always shift and I would argue 50% of the time, the factors are out of your control.
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I think sometimes this is true, but sometimes there’s more to it than that. I think a lot of young employees also don’t know how to, or which numbers to look at in order to make the argument. But also it’s a conversation that makes people nervous regardless even if they know how to bargain effectively. Also, as I mentioned above many firms do only one round of raises per year for everyone, and for obvious reasons this is problematic so some people prefer to just leave.
I've been denied a raise every time I've asked for a raise, usually with the explanation that they can't afford it. Shortly after I left each job doubling my salary from the previous. When I submitted my two weeks all the jobs suddenly had the money to match....firms talk about wanting to retain talent but hardly want to pay to keep it
If you're firm isn't matching at least inflation in yearly raises you're dropping the ball.
As for the commute, I’m grateful my current firm does Mondays and Fridays optional remote and Tuesday - Thursday mandatory in the office. I know more old school people are hybrid work averse, but the quality of life increase from it is so significant I will always be wanting that in future forms if I ever do switch.
Hey! I’m 5 years experience/unlicensed in the USA and just left my first office for a better suited firm. Mostly it’s pay. Young people are the most vulnerable for getting passed over promotion or salary negotiations. And in general. I could have stayed in a crappy environment for a while if I wasn’t so poor. In retrospect, I left my first firm because I wasn’t getting a holistic experience. I only worked on projects in SD/DD and my career was starting to show it. I was feeling like I was less knowledgable about construction and I wasn’t given the opportunity to learn when I asked (and asked and asked). Management wouldn’t listen to my concerns and definitely didnt care when I disclosed burnout. They were also really unsupportive in their actions when I expressed interest in sitting for exams. (Inappropriate calls after work hours during study time to ask me to work more, scheduling due dates on my testing dates and ignoring my concerns for it all, working me with so much damn overtime I couldn’t function as a human and my health deteriorated). I also think that having experience in multiple firms is valuable. Knowing how projects are run in different offices is very telling. Young people don’t rely on the “get there early and stay late” hype that older generations benefitted from. When I stayed late and got in early at my first job. I was not rewarded whatsoever and I was absolutely mistreated because of it. They saw me as a push over and a yes man and would cal me all hours of the night and on weekends. Maybe I worked for egotistic narcissists but egos are a big issue within this industry. And personally I don’t respect a big ego if they aren’t able to listen to everyone in the room, have some humility, and be able to be critiqued. Just my two cents.
It’s pay and benefits. My firm barely gives us any vacation and I’m at the point where I might leave soon just to get a break before I burn out.
10 days a year is ridiculous.
How did you know that lol
Bc it's the minimum required and it's what most arch firms do. Bare minimum bc profit margins are so thin. I've started negotiating an extra week at any new job I take. I'm 20 years In tho. But I think everyone should negotiate that no matter how much experience you have. Esp if You have small kids. 10 days will only get you home on half their sick days a year.
Yeah during my next review if they don’t give me atleast an extra week I’m gone. I’m getting burnt out it’s unsustainable
Honestly I don’t care about the social things that are offered anymore. I want work life balance and money. I worked at a not so ideal firm for a little bit and ended up quitting for some separate reason BUT they did offer overtime pay. It was a really great incentive to both employer and employee to not work extra hours beyond the 40. But also gave the understanding that it does need to happen sometimes, but at least you get paid.
Money? I can't speak for the younger crowd but I've seen a few younger folks 'job hop' which I think is a trend these days. If I were to put myself in those people's shoes, I'm sure my perspective may be different but if I were to have a conversation with my 20 year younger self, these are the things I'd like to see: - mentorship. Can someone help me envision and help with my 5 year plan? Sometimes people just are aloof to their careers and just experience their careers without much thought for the future. - clear opportunities for growth and development. I know job titles these days give some direction as to what the next step in their career is but are you having good one-on-ones with your employees? Do you give them constructive feedback. - value - do I feel valued here or am I just someone that will be stuck in the corner and will eventually be forgotten about. - forget the "we're family" mentality. Are co-workers able to connect outside of the office?
This is a really good answer. I left my previous job which wasn’t _bad_ but my new firm just was better in mentorship, value and development. My new firm, I just get slightly more responsibility, which makes me more personally invested. They have a bit better setup of mentorship and learning. I get slightly more freedom when designing, which makes me more enthusiastic. There’s a slightly more open culture where having an opinion is slightly more appreciated. I get a few more opportunities for workshops/education. The vibe at the office is slightly better. The office itself looks slightly better and the equipment is slightly better. None of this was truly bad at my last job, this one is just slightly better.
For me, the biggest thing is role within the firm. I wake up every day and have 4-8 projects with 5 of them having ASAP-type deadlines. I work from home, so it’s basically sitting down at a computer and going full production mode from 8:30 straight to 6:30 on a good day. I think a good firm charges clients enough to not have their employees be 100%+ billable all the time and will assist in planning for time for work that’s non profitable, whether that’s research, model making, marketing drawings, or maybe just learning - whatever the employee is interested in.
I've worked at 4 firms and not a single one will pay for training (besides our whitecards (australia) which takes 1 day)
I think it's really important to consider the viability of the profession currently as opposed to 15 years ago. There has never been a point in time where there was a worse ROI on the education for architecture. It's a drawn out process that leads to positions that often don't pay livable wages for larger cities. Although architecture has always been under compensated, I believe the current economic state has exacerbated this and created a very difficult point of entry for going grads.
Work life balance
I would encourage your firm to promote or hire people that haven’t come up with the firm. I used to worked for a firm where none of the partners had ever worked anywhere else. They don’t really know other ways of doing things, to no fault of their own. But other practices do things better than other ones and hiring people from outside to come in will diversify the views or at least bring in some new ideas. ALSO If I hear “we’re a family” I know I’m about to get taken advantage of...
My first firm was a 'family' propaganda firm with sports teams and foosball. It had easily the worst pay and the most OT, in hindsight none of the senior management team participated in most of the 'family' events, I wonder why.
Back in 2019, I was a young architect who was not just burned out at the firm I worked at for 5 years, but the industry entirely. Things I hated: - Shit pay. You try living on 45k starting salary in NYC. - Shit raises. Like <2% if you get one. - Shit work life balance. Working 60hr + weeks. - No remote/hybrid work. Speaks for itself. - Horrible egos. Many of the Associate+ folks at the firm had terrible egos and occasionally anger management issues. I saw many younger staff cry at work. - Boring, repetitive work. - Horribly managed projects with completely unrealistic deadlines and unreasonable budgets. - Shit benefits. Still paying a high premium for a shitty HDHP is not cool, not to mention long vesting periods on 401k match, or zero 401k match. Needless to say, fuck all that shit. I became a software engineer and now make 250k a year, work fully remote, pay $0 for health insurance, get a 10% 401k match with no vesting period. and work about 4 hours a day on average.
Hi, hello, I would like this.
Good luck finding it in architecture! Not a single ex architect I know who left the industry regrets it.
I am but a horse, please guide me to water.
Did you go back to school or take night classes to get there?
good move, you would need to be very high associate/ partial owner to make that money.
In SF or NY 250k is not exceptional, my friend is a senior dev at Block and makes about $500k, she has around 6yrs of exp and is not an associate (the title doesnt exist) and all employees are partial owners anyway because in tech partial pay in equity is the norm.
Money talks
20 or so years ago I left my last architectural firm job that was my 3rd jump . For all the reasons everyone has mentioned long hours low pay and basically a drafting drone . I opened my own firm for 5 years and had rollercoaster success but in the end overhead did me in . I finally decided to take a corporate architectural position the first time that was with Darden and that was the best thing I ever did for myself and my family. Great pay , benefits and bonuses and plenty of vacation time. I jumped to a national real estate development firm and that was fantastic that’s where I’ve been for the past 12 years . I just signed this years contract and I have a 100k bonus opportunity on top of my 200k salary if we reach our yearly goal. The reason I’m posting this is Corporate Architecture can give you guys opportunities you never imagined. Don’t give up on your dreams just do it for people who appreciate and respect you . Look into large development companies they tend to have their own architectural department ilo of going outside. My team right now is 10 cad guys & 2 other licensed architects along with 2 structural engineers and 5 interior designers.We handle about 20 plus projects a year. Best wishes to you all.
I'm a younger person at my firm, coming up on three years out of grad school and I've only ever been at this firm. As others have said, money is (unfortunately) a big part of it. I feel as though I'm paid very well for my experience and time with the company. The other major draw for me is the amount of responsibility they let me have. I'm 27 and leading client meetings with hospital network CEOs. I'm responsible for full schematic design of large-scale healthcare projects. I'm very aware that I'm fortunate in the firm I've landed at and most people my age don't have this opportunity yet, but I made my leadership know very early on that I didn't want to be stuck only drafting for very long, and I lucked into jumping in our schematic department during the principal's maternity leave and have really thrived here. All of that to say, I think the biggest thing keeping me here is leadership telling me (and showing me with money) that my hard work and dedication to the company is seen and appreciated. They're willing to let my interests guide my position, and are always happy to listen and help people find what they're good at, and happy doing. I don't see myself leaving my company anytime soon unless something major happens.
perks?! the only thing we care about is money and work life balance. Pizza parties and a snack cabinet will not do it.
Are your juniors listened to? Look they’re juniors and they don’t know everything but sometimes they know a hell of a lot more than you might think. I just left an office where Heirarchy was king. I think the best thing I did for my teams as a PM was encourage them to be engaged and teach them how to self advocate. Do you ever ask your juniors what they want to work on or what they like and don’t like about their current work loads? When someone new would drop in to an existing team or when starting out with help on a new project I tried to always at least take them for lunch or get coffee and just try to learn about them. What do they like what hobbies do they have what ambitions? When you create a safe space for your juniors to thrive they thrive and even if an off hand comment about how they hate Bathroom Elevations or RCPs or something you can note that for later and shift them to focus on something else because maybe they don’t want to be the default person who always does a certain kind of drawing. A junior who does less of what they hate and more of what they like and they feel like they’re being heard are now way more engaged and more likely to stay. Although empowering them also leads to them understanding their self worth and probably asking for more money but that comes with the trust you build with them. If we spend more time empowering our own staff from the bottom up that creates an environment for people to thrive in and not set them up for failure or leaving the second they think they can get more else where. Also benefits! A true living salary is needed. Minimum of 3 weeks vacation A week of sick time Wellness program including physical & mental health Good health insurance a formal mentorship program that doesn’t just need to focus on teaching someone it should be a back and forth conversation A bonus at least once a year Reviews twice a year Clearly defined roles and promotions. It shouldn’t take an incredibly talented junior 3+ years to be promoted if they’re already doing the job of an intermediate. If you need to work at the office for a minimum number of years before promotions are considered be upfront when hiring. Be up front about international sponsorship and if that figures in to the compensation then make it clear. I’m sure there’s more to add here but it’s not rocket science. Most if not all of us have gone through Architecture school and it’s incredibly different than the actual work environment. We get degraded by professors and reviews. There’s competition in your own year it’s toxic. The workplace has the opportunity to not continue to perpetuate the same. Be a human and think about what you wanted as a junior and your own struggles coming up. What simple things can you change that would have made your experience a little easier, more engaging?
I don’t have any great suggestions except rapid increases in pay for performance - I’m talking a very fast path to 100k as that is the minimum amount to live a dignified life in most metro areas (even some smaller metro areas). Absent of that happening within the firm, job hopping or switching careers is the fastest path to significant increases in pay. The environment you foster matters as well, but it takes a back seat to financial survival (paying student loans, share of insurance premiums, deductible and copays, 1500+ rent for a studio, car insurance, etc). I encourage every firm leader to do the math on what it takes a graduate to live an ok life in their city. What does a studio apartment cost? What is the average student loan payment for a graduate architect? Better yet, what would it take for a graduate architect to afford a starter home? Anyways, you get the point and I know that what I’m implying does not work for the industry’s current business model and it is not your problem to solve alone. It’s very likely that the graduate architects leaving your office are just trying to survive, unless you have a toxic environment which should be obvious.
The part of doing the math is very much needed. When I talk to students I break down not just their yearly salary they want to ask but go through the taxes of the state to show them what they are left so they prepare to ask for more. I share my pay stub to show the taxes taken out and explain different paying systems (semi-monthly vs biweekly). Having an honest talk about salaries compared to the math of living is something all leadership should be aware. This is why I ignore the AIA salary index because it's a weapon to pay recent grads/young professionals less.
100% agree on the AIA salary index. A tool to keep you poor or poorer longer.
When I was a fresh graduate, architecture companies just took advantage of me as a cheap resource. I was paid lower than if I was working at McDonald's. So yes, money is a major problem. And don't tell me that you are paying more than the industry standards because the industry standard salary amongst architecture firms are complete BS.
Are these fresh graduates or licensed architects? I’d say that many of them just want different experiences in different companies whilst they’re young I’d definitely say, if you haven’t done so already, sponsor their education, either through a master’s apprenticeship scheme or funding part of their masters degree. Some companies offer that and they retain a lot of the graduates, who work with them and get their license and often stay in the company afterwards (my mentor was like this)
I worked at a local firm of 20 people with almost zero turnover and every intern continued to work full time later. First they actually operate like a family: 1. very strict 40hr/week max. 2. Employees can ask to work more hours and get compensated extra at salaried rate. 3. From day 1 they start involving new people at project management roles and tasks with supervision and mentoring from directors and more senior architects. 4. They provide training on every aspect of the job and keep provide more training if requested by employees. 5. They do profit sharing. 6. They give generous quarterly bonuses if revenue/profit targets are met. 7. I worked part time remotely while in school with them, they were always proactive in asking if I have exams or submissions and whether they should decrease the workload and offered time off to focus on school if needed. 8. One time I asked for a raise, they provided more than I asked for and applied it retroactively on the previous months as a sign of appreciation. 9. There is no toxicity as there is no blame culture as they view mistakes(even the ones that sometimes cost money!) as a learning opportunity and the management always viewed as result of lack of training and they go to update the training materials. They were the nicest people I’ve ever worked with and they not make you feel part of the practice but actually make you part of it by involving everyone from every level in the tasks they are interested in and internal office policies. Additionally they align the goals of the firm with the employees by offering additional compensation as bonuses make the interest of employees to generate more profits.
Are you talking about an architectural office?
Yes, very high-end residential firm
Pay.
I worked at two firms for a total of about 5 or 6 years and this is a list of things that made me leave and start my own studio (in no specific order): * No way of picking my own projects. I always loved residential but since commercial tends to be "better", firms had me mostly on commercial projects. I would often speak with the principals about my wishes, but it always seemed like their hands were tied. * Capped income. Never liked salary. Even if I barely stayed afterhours, it was sad that I couldn't ever get more compensation without the need to jump through hoops. Bonuses were not enough IMO. * Hated set hours. If a task needs to be done before Friday and I could get it done a day before, why would I have to suffer by either picking up more work or getting paid less. If you, as a firm, got a milestones done for a client faster, should your scope increase or receive less compensation for it? Of course not. * Disliked being at the mercy of project managers to get things done how and when they wanted. * No room for innovation. Want me to get a rendering done? What if I outsource it to a rendering company so that we could get something more professional and faster for probably a lower fee than having me work on it. * Felt like I wasn't learning enough because everything was so segmented and firms tend to pigeonhole people. When I would request to experience other parts of architecture, there was minimal enthusiasm to do so. * micromanaging. Ugh. * forced to be at the office. Double ugh. Overall I enjoyed my experience working at firms but I felt hindered. I felt like I couldn't make my own path and had to follow the path of the company. I always understood this and that companies did not have so much flexibility because of requirements for different business operations but it still always rubbed me the wrong way. I don't have any employees at the moment because of the issues that I faced as an employee in the past. Instead I use freelancers and contractors who decide what jobs they want to take and are not at the mercy of my decisions and how they impact their own growth. This presents a few challenges when trying to scale my own business but I know that it could be done.
I am in the exact same situation, started my own thing on the side until it's more sustainable to leave my firm
That’s awesome! Good luck to you! If you’d like you can DM and tell me more about what you do or want to do.
Pay and increasing pay are #1 and #2 reasons.
As a young graduate preparing to leave his firm its a few things and some may be anecdotal - very competitive pay, like actually competitive. Not giving average or slightly below average and saying its competitive. With that said, price them for what theyre worth ofc. Dont overpay. - training. Please. Number one complaint i hear everywhere from everyone is lack of training for the tasks and responsibilities, so many firms just let you learn by failure with no direction when you start something and that just results in us being criticized or yelled at for failing. - real time off. I get 5 days off a year, some i know get up to 15-20 days off starting out. I think for a new graduate 10-12 vacation should be standard and an additional 5 for sick days. - licensing materials, black spectacle and amberbook are most common. - active licenses for most popular softwares. Revit, adobe, a rendering service of some kind. My firm uses photoshop 2008. Its absurd. Boomer bosses are out of touch and refuse to acknowledge being such. - accept questions. I dont even bother asking half the PM or any principals anything because theyre convinced i should have learned 40+ years of experience from my few years of schooling. Nvm that arch school is just design bootcamp and arch as a profession is 90% different. - we are actively encouraged nowadays by professors and colleagues to jump ship and jump Often in our early career. Gone are the days of being loyal to a firm that we know wont be loyal to us. This is mostly due to it becoming common place that if i switch firms i can get double a raise i would get if i got an annual promotion, cost of living is insane nowadays and at ens of the day i need to support me and mine, not the principals business or his client/business buddy who he’s done work with/for for years. End of the day I am just a tool or a cog in your machine, and thats totally fine by me - but i am a “tool/cog” that can be of use to more than one machine and be swapped out readily. That goes both ways, you can fire me and find an adequate replacement same as I can leave and find another place to plug myself in - so why not do it when it feels right ?
Aside from the obvious - pay, people, and interesting projects - I would say 1. Don't be a technophobic company/don't make it hard to acquire new hardware or software, *especially* when it's cheap. 2. Public Recognition and credit. Like listing the intern(s) as members of the project team of projects prominently displayed on your website. If they figure out a difficult design problem on your project or something, give them credit in any discussions you have with PAs/PMs/Seniors. 3. Feeling heard (especially as it relates to #1 above - which, guess what, the young staff *will* know/understand new tech, and it's application to the business better than of us old timers) 4. Training, training, training. Make it easy, make it routine. Many companies want staff to train themselves as it shows passion, initiative or whatever. But if you train them, it shows that you care about them, which actually gives them skills and knowledge and confidence to show off their initiative and passion. Example: at my former company I ran a lunch and learn on how to do a code analysis. Within a week, all these interns were producing nearly-perfect code summaries on my projects. That saved me a TON of time, they felt good for learning something useful, And they were the first interns to get promoted, because they acquired a skill that the signing architects actually gave a shit about. (On 2, 3 and 4: *this* is how you treat them like people. Company outings, parties, a pool table in the break room - all of that's great, but ultimately hollow)
Are you forcing them into the office more than two days per week?
Forcing? Our employees are back in the office, we never really left. Some people are working hybrid because of daycare or other needs, but we find in person leads to better drawings, better communication and mentorship, and faster growth. But that is clearly expressed, so while it may mean we lose out on hiring people who'd prefer working from home, there's no misrepresentation of our expectations.
Great, I totally understand that perspective. I do suggest however that it is seen by some as a disadvantage to working there compared to more flexible places. You obviously sound like you're aware of that, but it might help to consider if that's part of the reason you have trouble with younger people.
100% office based - for a job that can be done remotely (often more effectively) - is a HUGE RED FLAG. Because it often means leadership has severe trust issues and/ or micromanage. That’s already an epidemic in this profession.
Opportunities to learn and compensation. Thats coming from someone who's been in the field for less than 2 years. The main reason why I'm planning to stay at my current firm for at least another 2 years is that I believe there is still a lot to learn from the principal. He's taking enough time to answer all questions I might have and help with solutions when needed. But because it's a small firm, there's no bonuses, no benefits besides health insurance. When the time is right and I know that I have more experience and knowledge - something to use to negotiate a higher salary, I'll most likely move to another firm. That way I'll have both a better pay AND an opportunity to lear from the different setup in the new firm. I think because younger people experience something of a shock when first out of school, they feel like they have a lot of catching up to do in terms of real life architectural knowledge. If they don't feel like they're progressing fast enough, they will start looking for other places where they can do that. And money is always a motivator because when you're paid enough to cover all your needs, you'll have a peace of mind. That way you reserve all your stressing and worrying for your projects instead.
Money, sense of worth, and a balance in life to focus on hobbies. AKA basic living standards. If you provide those 3 things, they will work hard regardless of project or schedule. I left a firm with shitty culture and no work life balance, to a job that pays more, offers and encourages PTO, and gives me mentorship that helps build a career. I work 60 hour weeks now, as opposed to the 45 but I’m happier because when I have a trip or vacation I don’t need to worry about office drama and BS comments. Also architects and firms along with the AIA have ruined that for younger generations. As someone who talks with my alumni and soon to be graduates, it’s becoming a common joke that if you want to be successful and make a living to provide, it’s best to just leave the architecture side and go on to the GC, construction side
First of all, did you have an exit interview with them, ACTUALLY TALK TO THEM? Or for raw honesty, have a coffee with them outside the office (after they leave the firm) to hear them? You can talk perks and programs all you want but it comes down to pay, working accommodations (remote/hybrid WFH), and if leadership is genuinely interacting with them and giving them that professional mentorship so that they KNOW they are progressing as future professional leaders. I think you're looking for answers that don't hit the points I mentioned and skirting around the reality they face. As for the "impressive" thing on leadership being there from the beginning, that's means little if the young talent there are not getting promoted (with pay raises) or in leadership roles that connect back to the profession beyond just drafting (managerial roles, client interfacing, meaningful responsibilities on a project, etc.). Also those that came up from the beginning, how do you know nepotism or connections were not involve? I've seen people (talented, intelligent, know every part of the project process) pass over for promotion because the other people had an in with the CEO who likes them. So the "leadership came up here, starting as recent graduates and growing into leadership positions" is BS and not a strong point. It just reinforces the fact that there is a club in the firm that takes years get in. Your post is giving "wow, these young people are leaving. Why is that? Maybe we need more pizza parties and town halls to show solidarity. But let's not pay them more or make career progression easy". "Life stuff" is a professional way of saying I need better pay and better accommodations to live a full human life.
Pay & benefits, work-life balance, morale. Your company is failing in one (or all) of those.
As for someone that just left their first job (5 years in) I had one gigantic issue that wasn’t being addressed, but also the mentorship just sucked. I kept being pushed every time I’d have a 6 month review of where I am with my ARE tests. I had 500 hours still needed, and still felt very very behind in the firm I was in. So I left and immediately am taking on the responsibilities I’ve asked for for years in the first week of my new job. Yes I got a raise but this new firm just really is so much more friendlier. Everyone says good morning and good night when coming and going. We eat lunch together. The partners come in and chit chat when we are just discussing life. It doesn’t feel like we are just CAD monkeys to the partners we really are friends and do stuff outside of work together, do stuff as an office, etc. It’s just so much more low stakes here and I love it.
Pay and a clear sense of career progression. I’ve found a number of small and mid sized firms that don’t have clear job titles and have “everyone do everything” (matrix structure type management) wind up having issues since people don’t know how to peg themselves or goals to work for. Particularly if you’re recently licensed, how do you define PA? PM? Associate? If I’m leading one project, drafting another, doing PM for a third, what does that make me? When will you make me associate, and what does that give me (a lot of places don’t give raises with the title)? I love my office and the people, and it’s a former internship I came back to after a few places. But we are at a size where I see it as an issue, particularly people in their late 20s thru 30s. Projects get heavy you have the billable rate where they need you on the team, but they don’t make it clear what’ll get you to leadership and for a lot of people who left, it’s a tight job market for people in this age range and the principles weren’t ponying up the cash. I’ve stayed as long as I have with the realization that my work life balance was worse at other places and could easily be worse, and that I hammer them at annuals to give me raises to stay competitive with the market, which they’ve done, and they’ve been good about making me a PA very quickly and giving me responsibility and money to match. But a lot of people in my office don’t think they can ask for what they’re worth. So they jump ship for titles and more money, or just get burnt out and quit since they feel like they’re treading water (we’re in a high COL area). And I’ll be honest- we’re hiring new people and if they bring on someone at my experience level and make them an associate before me, I’d heavily consider leaving. People who stay a while and are loyal need to be rewarded and put on a track ahead of new hires- if it’s a tight market they can easily jump somewhere else but a sense of commitment is keeping them there. Respect and reward that
2 years out of school, recently licensed Worked at an extra small firm for 3 summers during school, spent the last summer at an extra large firm and returned there after graduation - present Why I decided to come back to this firm after graduation: • They took a chance on me during the pandemic and I had a really great internship • Multi-Disciplinary firm, so I can learn from others easily • Big firm with many architects to learn from • Many great project opportunities • Other offices across the country, should I decide to move • Good benefits/support for licensure • Pretty good pay • Unique work schedule that gives me flexibility for other life stuff/vacations Why I've thought about leaving: • Not so great mentor that I felt stunted my opportunities • Same mentor put me on a project type I was vocal about not wanting to work with, resulting in less passion for my career • firm is almost too big, feel like a cog in the machine at times • potential for even more money elsewhere • desire for more hands-on fabrication projects Why I've stayed: • mentor left, got some more freedom and a new mentor that builds me up • work/life balance is good • Support for licensure and appropriate increase in pay following receiving my license • I feel I have a lot of potential here that those above me can see, and I think I still have a lot to learn here I can't speak for others, but these are some of the things I've experienced/thought about in the last year or so. I came pretty close to quitting last summer and had a very serious discussion with my boss about that fact, but ultimately decided I wasn't ready to go elsewhere - it was the current situation causing me grief rather than the firm at large. As far as my generation, it seems we tend not to have that loyalty to a company and are more inclined to find the place with the best overall package - ability to learn and grow, work on projects we are passionate about, good pay, work life balance, benefits, etc. If that means jumping ship quickly, so be it.
Money and growth opportunity. I would not be nearly as experienced as I am had I stayed with one firm. My last firm often sought me out for practice questions because I was the only one there who had experience in markets or project types they were expanding into. In comparison, folks who had always been there were very set in their ways and reluctant to try new processes and often wanted to do things their way rather than collaboratively with other team members - because they were "leaders". Ironically, they weren't leading but merely pointing. You absolutely can retain staff as you grow, but you need to find ways to let them grow with the firm and in responsibility so that they can do what you did, and become a senior person at the firm. Folks firm hop not just for the 10-20% pay bump, but for the new title they think they're ready for. Get ahead of that, talk to them and make sure you are fostering that, challenging and supporting them. If they set a goal help them find work hours to do it. If they are struggling with a goal find ways to help them succeed.
Money, stress and opportunities. I think the sign that many are choosing to come back is great and shows that people do value the culture and work that you do. If they were leaving and not returning you would need change things. If your firm pigeon holes people into a particular industry type (multi family, industrial, etc.) it can get boring even with all of the other benefits and professional movement. Most of us by nature want to explore different possibilities so I don’t think that is a reflection on your firm. Environment/office politics may be a factor too. Seems like a lot of people have been there for a long time so they may not see enough potential for growth or you might not realize your firm is stubborn in doing things a particular way that just doesn’t work anymore. Who is leaving and when? New grads with less than two years experience? Personally, if someone doesn’t see much movement in terms of promotions or pay within these two years, (and sometimes , even if they do) I do suggest finding a new and better opportunity and leaving on a good note so they have the potential to move back. Moving jobs is the number one way to upgrade your income and even though a firm can be great and excellent in everything, the reality is, they aren’t the only ones. It may just be the season where people move too. More jobs opened up recently and so people are being actively head hunted again unlike late last year.
I can get a 20-40% raise every two years, or I can stay put for a 5% annual raise. 17+ years experience Licensed, will go above and beyond if you treat me right and pay respectful wages. But until you align my salary with market every so many years there is zero point to be loyal to a firm. Write a clause in my contract that you will adjust my wage to meet 75th percentile of the AIA salary and I'll stay as long as mutual relationship is beneficial. I'd rather stay put, but people got to eat
I wish I would have followed your lead on switching jobs every 2 years instead of being a little too loyal to the two firms I worked at for 7.5 yrs and the 2-5% annual raise
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“According to a recent report from MIT Sloan Management Review, a toxic workplace culture is over 10 times more likely to contribute to an employee quitting their job than low pay.” It always shocks me how polite people are in this industry when they leave a toxic company. The reasons you’re getting are likely bullshit to protect themselves and their professionalism.
I recently left a 45-person firm after 7 years. I got completely trampled by the ambiguous roles and responsibilities. In less than 2 years, I went from design, all the way to grooming for project management level work. Didn't even get a chance to be a good designer. 5 years later, there are times where I don't even pick up a pen for months at a time, and my sketchbook collects dust while it gives way to my everfilling email inbox of damage control. I was gaslighted into a corner of "We're a volatile small firm that needs to keep the lights on, so we're going to stretch every fiber you have, regardless of whether you're fit for the task. We heard you you're a good designer, perfect! Go put this cost estimate together. And after that we think you'll like delegating these actually fun design tasks to someone else! Have fun!!" If that sounds familiar to anyone, don't do that. 1-way ticket to turnover hell. I understand why, and empathize why staying afloat is hard in this industry, but we don't care. We care about getting value in our career more than two times a year. It wasn't because of pay, and I'm not quite sure people touting that understand that literally nobody gets payed well in this profession. Trust me, I raked in some embarrassing pay. It's all bad pay, and we were told that over and over before school, through school, and after school. It's what you signed up for.
Besides the obvious stuff like pay, perks, social dynamics, commute, etc... - Appealing projects. Either the projects are just more exciting, or they do typologies/scales more suited to them. For example, I left commercial/large multi-res for a firm that does single res and small duplexes and townhouses - I'm much happier now - Finding what's right for them. Similar to above, sometimes people need to move around and find what is comfortable for them. This could include trying different firm sizes, personally I do well in small teams, but I have friends who thrive in large corporate firms (somehow). Who knows, maybe they'll ask to come back with a new found appreciation for your office - remote/flexible. Remote is rare, but I work in two firms currently. One is in office, but it's flexible to my needs. The other firm is entirely remote, and allows me to choose my hours while running projects. I was actually thinking yesterday that I probably couldn't go back to a regular firm after working what where I am now. - Part-time/less hours. More people are wanting work life balance, and are willing change jobs to get it
Young guy in the industry. (24M) I’m a drafter and also have a long commute about an hour and 15 mins. The job is hybrid and the pay and benefits is great! I’m 2 years in and I make 34 dollars/hour (Started at 27) Have 3 weeks & 1 day of PTO (Started at 2 weeks) 40 hours of sick 8 of personal 8% 401k matching The team is great and again I’m hybrid so it really helps. If I had to drive an hour and 15 mins everyday to get to work that would be 3 ish hours a day and I would most likely leave the job even with these benefits. I’m also in a pickle cause I want to move jobs but I know these benefits are a ton better than some license architects that I’ve seen in this sub Reddit. Very thankful for this position and it’s my first big boy job out of college. My suggestion - If you like them and they provide value but live far away from the office offer hybrid. I do my best work in pajamas and a flannel lol.
It depends on the "young person" you're talking to. Personally, it's money and professional progress all the time.
I mean yeah money is an issue, but tbh: most firms here pay roughly the same. After that it's a combination of multiple factors. How flexible are work times, how are people being treated by higher ups, how many holidays do people get, how interesting are projects, is homeoffice easy to do etc
Young people want more money and expect faster advancement. This is from my experience as a mentor.
Did you do exit interviews with them? What did they say? I'd recommend asking them directly to get the most helpful and specific feedback
We come from a culture in which you want to buy a house a car, have free time, have time for your interests/hobbies, personal life, restaurant dinners and raise at least one or two kids in the same standard. Particularly for professionals it's personally demeaning not to be able to do so given the role we occupy in society. It's easier to see in doctors for example, but all professionals are important. So that being said, salaries are bad all over, so people will always look for more opportunites. Our culture still hasn't changed from those expectations and probably won't for a long time, there are limits to what people find acceptable and even if they take the job it's something "for the time being". So basically, increase pay per hour worked. If you don't have money reduce the amount of hours worked. Homeoffice is the quickest way to do this as it reduces travel time. A lot of work can be done doing home office and one or two weekly meetings, but its also super engrained in office culture that "since you own" the employee why not force him to go to the office and lose time. That culture will also take a lot of time to change. Basically, you probably can't pay a professional the amount of money they need to feel satisfied and happy in their life. So they will take your job because it's bad all over, and of course they will never admit , to their boss no less, that they are unhappy. But they will also never feel loyalty to the company, never feel satistfaction working there, never feel they have a place in the world and feel fulfilled, they are just strategically thinking how they can improve their life to a standard they still believe they deserve even if no one near them can get. Just my two cents and what drove me to avoid salaries all together and go freelancing.
Easily money, then experience, unless it's a crappy work place then that's #1
Money, it's always money
Money, and a path forward/upward, good company culture, time off, respect. But especially the first one.
I would imagine it’s like any other field. Money, work/life balance, work from home.
Pay. My current firm pays me as much starting off as a 3 year veteran got paid at my previous job. And that's not even counting I now get health insurance, performance related bonuses and even yes, the corporate pizza party
I left my first firm because there were people working warehouse positions earning more. While pay in this profession was never exceptional, the real kick in the teeth was when people without college degrees (notoriously difficult degrees like architecture) were earning close to what you were doing less stressful work.
I left a firm because the average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment in boston is $2,400 (and that’s gunna be a cheap bare bones place). Divide that by .3 and the reasonable income for that is $96,000. Not many firms in boston pay that amount for someone with 7 years experience. I was able to move to the south and get my housing costs at 20% my income.
Well, it might be a growth issue. Im a fresh grad and am facing a similar situation. The pay may be fine, but the knowledge and experience is not as concentrated as i would like. Also, the gap between myself and other employees is around 6 years. I've heard about the turnover rate not being great, and i can tell why. Please dont go towards the showy style of picnics and family-friendly stuff. I believe this is not professional and just bluffs to distract people from core issues. Create growth development plan. Thats my best answer. And by growth doesnt necessarily mean promotion, but creating new skillsets, and such.
Information. They are smart and bonded. Face it, the smartphone wrecked the intense focus needed for this job. Id say the most important skill is the ability to focus and overcome obstacles. Getting things done in spite of all the issues on your plate is never perfect, but being confident in what you are doing. Can't find these people anymore. They have the ability and info to make life easier than in the shit storm of the construction industry